WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:06.759 Well with they come and take my pain, the moneys, 2 00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:09.119 my rain, Oh whiskey. 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:12.400 Why think alone when you can drink it all? In 4 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:17.440 with Ricochet's Three Whiskey Happy Hour, join your bartenders, Steve Hayward, 5 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:25.879 John U and the International Woman of Mystery, Lucretia, where. 6 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:30.039 The slap happen David hain't easy on the should tap, 7 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:32.920 got a giving and let that whiskey. 8 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:35.439 Flo So settle in everyone for what may be the 9 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:38.439 most gonzo episode ever of the Three Whiskey Happy Hour. 10 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:40.600 In fact, you might want to call it the Three 11 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:44.759 Whiskey Happy Hour squared because it was taped live during 12 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:47.679 a happy hour at the Washington Hilton at the annual 13 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:50.280 meeting of the Federal Society, where John, You and I 14 00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:52.679 are present and annoying everyone in sight. 15 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:54.200 We did this last year. 16 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:56.840 What we did was just wrangle up whoever happened to 17 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:59.520 be wandering by the most quiet spot we could find 18 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:04.120 in the Hilton, which wasn't that quiet. And this year 19 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:08.359 we are pleased to highlight several luminaries from the legal world. 20 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:11.599 In particular, we are joined by Akil. 21 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:14.799 Almar of Yale Law School and Yale University to talk 22 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:19.719 about his brand new book Born Equal, remaking America's Constitution 23 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:22.959 from eighteen forty to nineteen twenty. But along the way 24 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:26.680 we're joined by Roger Palan, the longtime director of Constitutional 25 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.480 Studies at the Cato Institute. Judge William Pryor, the Chief 26 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.120 Judge of the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals, drops by 27 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.680 briefly to say a couple of things. Elan Worman, one 28 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:40.000 of the rising young stars of the Conservative Legal Academy 29 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:43.280 from the University of Minnesota, wanders by and treats us 30 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.680 to a delightful discussion of the issue of birthright citizenship. 31 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:47.480 And then of. 32 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:51.040 Course our old pal Hadley Arcis drops by. Hadley of 33 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:54.560 course needs no introduction. John Yu floats in and out, 34 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:59.879 of course, doing his usual loitering and quips. 35 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:00.680 Ingests and so forth. 36 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:05.120 But I'm going to pick up with our discussion with 37 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:06.879 a ki La mar about his book. 38 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:10.439 And unfortunately we had to let a number of people. 39 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:12.919 Who wandered by the law fall to the cutting room floor, 40 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:15.120 just because we don't have enough time for that long 41 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:15.800 an episode. 42 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:18.400 And you'll just have to bear with the rough. 43 00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:21.520 And raw and authentic I'll call it a character of 44 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.719 the sound and some of the abrupt transitions, but without 45 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:27.840 further ado, let's get started right away with the ki 46 00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:30.919 lamr so. 47 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:33.120 So kil I can't. 48 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:36.000 I only had your book Born Equal for two hours. 49 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:39.199 I have flipped through a few pages to realize that, oh, 50 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:42.520 this is a rival to maybe Gary Wills about the 51 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:46.240 centrality of the Gettysburg address really and also to my 52 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:50.479 teacher controversial with many of Harry Jaffa, who was always 53 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:51.360 trying to work up who. 54 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:52.800 Would never got to the Gettysburg address. 55 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:56.520 But right he has all the teachings about equality and 56 00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.400 so forth. And I also was expecting I'm not sure 57 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:01.199 why I was expecting this. 58 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:03.680 I thought, oh, it's going to be one of those 59 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:05.479 legal now, so go through the cases and all the 60 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:05.759 rest of that. 61 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:06.159 It's not. 62 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:08.479 There's a narrative here. Sorry, I'm being too long. 63 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:13.039 You want to give us a you know, the abstract, 64 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:15.680 the summary of what you're doing in this book, and 65 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:17.680 maybe two or three key takeaways. 66 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:21.240 What you said was brilliant. You've looked at it, and 67 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:24.840 you've got me just right. If you ask me which 68 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:30.080 ten or fifteen books were most influential for me, which 69 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:33.120 I was most trying to be Like Gary Willis's Lincoln 70 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:35.639 at Gettysburg would have been on that list, and Harry 71 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:39.080 Jaffers Crisis of the House Divided would have been on 72 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:41.960 that list. Harry Jaffer wrote the best book about the 73 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:47.120 Lincoln Douglas Debates. I say in the PostScript, I've written 74 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:49.759 the best single chapter, so you don't have to read. 75 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:52.240 The whole Harry Jaffer book. 76 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:56.319 You know, one stop shopping for the Lincoln Douglas Debates. 77 00:03:56.360 --> 00:03:59.879 And in a nutshell, I'm trying to tell the story 78 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:05.039 of eighty years of American history from eighteen forty to 79 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:10.039 nineteen twenty, and the big idea is birth equality. We 80 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:14.560 begin in eighteen forty with millions of Americans enslaved, and 81 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:21.600 we experience a civil war and four Linconian amendments that 82 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.240 affirm this idea that we're all created equal, we're all 83 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:30.759 born equal, we're born equally free. That's the thirteenth Amendment. 84 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:33.759 No one's born a slave, no one's born a slave master. 85 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:38.759 People in America under the American flag, born on American soil, 86 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:43.000 are born equal citizens with civil rights, whether they're black 87 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:43.759 or white. 88 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:44.879 Male or female. 89 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:47.879 A fifteenth Amendment comes along and says, whether you're black 90 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:51.959 or white, you have equal voting rights, political rights, and 91 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:57.199 eventually by nineteen twenty a fourth amendment. It's often people 92 00:04:57.199 --> 00:04:59.439 often talk about the three Reconstruction Amendments. 93 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:01.720 This is a four fifty years later also. 94 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.240 Linconian saying, whether you're born male or female, you have. 95 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:07.800 Equal voting rights, equal political rights. 96 00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:10.759 And I try to tell the story of what these 97 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:13.079 amendments mean and how they happen. 98 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:13.879 Let me break in. 99 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:17.639 So this is John you co host with Steve and 100 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:22.040 Akill was my teacher at Yale. I have to say 101 00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:24.399 this is the only book of Acquelles I haven't read yet, 102 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:26.199 because I've read all the other ones, but this one's 103 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:29.079 hot off the press. And rogers, do you want sticking 104 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:34.360 around to be a participant slash heckler? And so I 105 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:37.600 know you go full more agreeing with Lincoln. Yes, also 106 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:41.720 agree with him that fundamental equality and nation had started 107 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.600 not in seventeen eighty seven or eighty nine, or even 108 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:49.160 really eighteen sixty eight, but in seventeen seventy six. 109 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:53.279 So the first words of the book are from his 110 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:54.920 Gettysburg address. 111 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:55.959 And. 112 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:05.759 He says that the union precedes the Constitution. He may 113 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:09.319 be right, it's not an indivisible union in my view 114 00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:15.079 until the Constitution. But he begins very famously in eighteen 115 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:19.240 sixty three saying, eighty seven years earlier, four scorn seven 116 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:22.839 years ago, our father's brought forth upon this continent a 117 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:25.759 new nation. So he's saying it is seventeen seventy six, 118 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:32.360 no conceived in liberty, not slavery. Roger and his friends 119 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:38.319 emphasize right before government. It's conceived in liberty and dedicated 120 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:41.319 to the proposition that all men are created equals. So 121 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:44.560 that's Lincoln's idea. It's a contested idea. 122 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:45.199 You're right. 123 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:46.800 So this is the question. I want to press you 124 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:49.160 on a quiel and forgive me. I've got my Glenn 125 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:52.439 Buran g ten year Steve is drinking martini, so he's 126 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:56.040 not actually having whiskey. Roger's red wine a kiel as 127 00:06:56.079 --> 00:07:01.040 always is sober so also, but I want to know 128 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:04.000 it kills what you think I'm When did the nation start? 129 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:05.120 When did the American keep? 130 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:06.240 Okay, I think the. 131 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:12.519 Idea of an America, the United States of America is 132 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:17.720 seventeen seventy six. But they're free and equal states. They're 133 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:22.480 free and independent states. They're independent even of each other 134 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:24.639 until the Constitution. 135 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:26.399 They could choose to leave. 136 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:29.800 To brexit. It's merely a confederation. Each state is sovereign 137 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:34.600 under the articles. So the Constitution takes USA one point zero, 138 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:38.240 which begins in seventeen seventy six, and makes it two 139 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:43.240 point zho. It's like a corporate merger, a union that's indivisible. 140 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:48.160 And they're one American people with all equal rights before 141 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:48.879 the Constitution. 142 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:49.399 This is real. 143 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:52.519 This is what's confronting the Supreme Court in several issues. 144 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:52.720 Now. 145 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:56.680 See so I go through in my chapter on the 146 00:07:56.759 --> 00:08:00.720 Lincoln Douglas debates and give you the reader no fewer 147 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:05.240 than ten different ways in which these five words all 148 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:08.160 men are created equal could be read and were read 149 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:12.000 in the middle of the nineteenth century. And Lincoln himself 150 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:17.199 evolves along this radiant He initially says, all men are 151 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:22.480 born or created equally free, They're equal in life, liberty, 152 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:26.079 and the pursuit of happiness. And he says, I Abraham Lincoln. 153 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:28.800 He says this in eighteen fifty eight in Lincoln Negalice space. 154 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:34.039 I'm not in favor of Negro citizenship. But he evolves yes, yes, 155 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:36.360 and then by the end of his life he's going 156 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:40.440 to be in favor of equal citizenship, equal voting rights. 157 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:44.840 So these amendments thirteen, fourteen, fifteen are going to track 158 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:48.279 Lincoln's own evolution in a way. If you're if you're 159 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:53.000 inclined to the biological we say ontogeny recapitulates phylogical aid, 160 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:57.759 you know, but the thirteenth, fourteenth, and fifteenth recapitulate Abe's 161 00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:01.679 own evolution on equal quality, and you the reader will 162 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:04.759 be able to trace how he moves from equally free, 163 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:08.480 to equally citizens to equal voters black and white, and 164 00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:12.320 eventually even though he's dead, you know, I think he 165 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:15.639 would have embraced the idea of equal voting male and female. 166 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.039 So Steve, can I jump in here? 167 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:20.159 No, wait a minute, Hold on a second, because there's 168 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:20.799 something he said. 169 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:23.519 I'm very kind of particular about it. Just quick digression. 170 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.720 Maybe it's in your book that if maybe I expect 171 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:29.600 you know it. Even if it's not there, there's an 172 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:32.840 equivocation about Lincoln that I think is significant. You mentioned it, 173 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:36.600 So I'm not for negro equality. The way you actually 174 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:39.200 put it is very only if you're paying attention. Do 175 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:41.440 we notice that he would say I'm not now, nor 176 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:42.480 have I ever been. 177 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:45.360 He didn't say what he would. 178 00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:50.639 Be exactly okay, and he does. He grows, he's a ratchet. 179 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:56.519 He never actually regresses political opportunities open up. I think 180 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:00.679 he wants to move in certain directions. He's never the 181 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:04.960 most forward leaning politician at any moment in his life, 182 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:08.320 but at every moment I think he's the most forward 183 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:10.399 leaning who has the chance of getting elected. 184 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.399 Yeah, okay, right now we're in we're in complete agreem 185 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:15.480 about let me do once more more sequel. I just 186 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:17.840 want to get your opinion. I'd mentioned, you know, Jeffung, 187 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:22.080 Gary Wills. I think the John Burke Burt book Lincoln's 188 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:24.080 Tragic Pragmatism. 189 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:24.360 Which I don't know. 190 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:27.240 Oh, it's worth reading. I'll just say it's a magnificent book. 191 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:30.600 Steve enough talking about what you read a new guests 192 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:34.080 along with a killed Judge William Pryor, who is I 193 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:37.440 think in many ways responsible oh for originalism. 194 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:40.960 So, by the way, Judge Pryor, you you were this sorry, 195 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:42.879 sorry you, no, no no, I did want to get 196 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:43.679 back to the literary. 197 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:47.200 But my friend Judge Pryor has actually started reading the book, 198 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:48.399 so he's. 199 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:50.039 In your pagent. It's awesome. 200 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:52.600 Well, thank you so, Judge pryor when I think you 201 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:54.679 were just like this is twenty eight years ago, when 202 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:56.679 you were just a lawyer prior or something. 203 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:01.120 Was attorney general. Attorney General. A fabulous review of my 204 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:01.919 the first volume. 205 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:05.000 My Reagan did two volumes. It was I was bowled 206 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:09.399 over by how nice it was. He finally great to 207 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:11.039 meet you in person, Thank you, et cetera. 208 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:13.080 As well. I enjoyed. 209 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:15.840 I enjoyed the sequel as well. 210 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:16.159 Thank you. 211 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:19.519 Right, well, let me do one last question for you. 212 00:11:19.559 --> 00:11:21.799 Maybe not last question, but and then Roger wants to 213 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:22.080 get in. 214 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:23.759 But I would like to ask a. 215 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:29.200 Literary question, which is because having written some long narratives myself, 216 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:31.440 are there any discoveries along the way? 217 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:33.200 Did does something surprise you? 218 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:36.080 Is it something jump out as something you hadn't expected 219 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:37.399 or you thought is more important? 220 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:38.440 It needed to be brought out. 221 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:44.600 So many things I try to categalog category catalog them 222 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:46.600 in the PostScript. 223 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:48.399 Well, let me mention two or three. 224 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:56.000 One, since we talked about literary interests, I introduced the 225 00:11:56.039 --> 00:12:02.320 reader to America's first female superstar. Everyone's talking about her, 226 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:06.559 and she's fallen out of the can and the conversation 227 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:11.159 Harriet Beecher Stowe is huge, and she's a literary figure. 228 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:14.080 She writes a book it sells more copies than any 229 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:17.440 other book by an American of the century, and we've 230 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:22.559 forgotten about her. So before Taylor Swift or Beyonce or 231 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:26.480 Hillary Clinton or Kamala Harris or even eleanor Roosevelt, there 232 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:30.080 is Harriet Beecher Stowe, and no woman at the founding 233 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:32.679 is the center of political discourse. 234 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:33.919 Abigail is off stage. 235 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:37.879 So that's the women in the in who read the 236 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:42.159 book are gonna really love getting to know Harriet Beecher 237 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:45.799 Stowe and Elizabeth Katy Stanton, who's amazing. The second big 238 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.919 thing that I think is really important to emphasize is 239 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:55.679 there is an abolition project in the North that begins 240 00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:00.000 as early as seventeen seventy six. The ancient world has slavery, 241 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:03.720 it has the idea of freeing individual slaves. Sixteen nineteen, 242 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.799 in my view, is not that significant to date because 243 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:09.320 there was slavery in the New World and the old 244 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:12.879 world before sixteen nineteen. Here's the new thing in the world, 245 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:18.639 not freeing slaves, but ending slavery, and that's an American idea. 246 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:22.759 It begins in Philadelphia, in seventeen seventy five and seventeen 247 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:28.559 seventy six, and by seventeen seventy six, northern state constitutions 248 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:32.600 are committing themselves in Pennsylvania and three years later, four 249 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:36.759 years later in Massachusetts to this concept that all men 250 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:42.080 are born free and born equally free and independent, and 251 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:45.000 that is going to lead to not freeing slaves, but 252 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:50.960 abolishing slavery in Pennsylvania in Massachusetts very early on. And 253 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:54.759 most Americans don't know about that abolition project, which is 254 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:57.000 an American project, which is, of course, since I'm in 255 00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:01.279 the presence of Roger Pielant, a libertarian project. It's about 256 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:06.720 liberty and and Abe Lincoln channels all that when he 257 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:13.080 goes back and says, yes, they didn't eliminate slavery, and 258 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.120 they said all men are created equal, but they committed 259 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:21.399 themselves in effect to an abolitionist project. Say here is 260 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:24.159 true North, this is the North Star. And people like 261 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:27.759 Harry Jaffa understand that. So Jaffa is important for me. 262 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:32.279 Now I'm told I'm told he was a cantankerous Fellows 263 00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:34.440 and I never met him in the flesh, and I'm 264 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.440 told that Bill Buckley once said, you think disagreeing with 265 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:38.360 Harry Jaff is hard. 266 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:39.200 Try agreeing with that. 267 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:44.399 But he did influence me, and so did Gary Wills, 268 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:49.799 so did Gordon Wood, so did Ed Larson, and so 269 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:50.919 did the great Jim Oaks. 270 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:56.000 Quick factual question is the famous story of Lincoln saying 271 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:56.399 to HARRYT. 272 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:58.600 Beecher Stowe, so you're the little lady who causes great 273 00:14:58.639 --> 00:14:59.000 big war? 274 00:14:59.080 --> 00:14:59.559 Is that true? 275 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.960 It is? And some people have said it's not. 276 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:05.519 And actually there's a fellow whom you know, I believe, 277 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:10.919 Roger Tim Sandefern, who writes a review saying that I 278 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:14.679 got that wrong. And I'm telling your audience here now 279 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:18.080 I'm doubling down on that. Since that review came out, 280 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:23.039 I quadruple checked all my sources, and he cites something 281 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:27.919 that actually misses a lot that actually I believe happened. 282 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.519 And here's some of my evidence for it. Because I 283 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:37.559 am always interested in trying to find primary sources and 284 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:43.840 contemporaneous sources to confirm the legends. So I have contemporaneous 285 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:48.159 sources saying Harry Beecherstowe was there that week, and it's 286 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.639 the newspapers. She clearly was there, and the first published 287 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:56.360 reports that this is what she said came out within 288 00:15:56.840 --> 00:16:02.039 weeks of her own death in the Atlanta magazine, when 289 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:06.039 her children were still alive. And if this reporter is 290 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.960 making all that up, her children are immediately going to say, no. 291 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:09.840 You made that up. 292 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:13.799 So I have every reason to think that actually she 293 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:21.159 said that the canonical accounts of this famous exchange come 294 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:25.480 from her own children, saying that we got this from 295 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:25.960 our mom. 296 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:28.240 And I don't think she was a liar, right. 297 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:31.320 It's always seemed metaphysically right to me. And I know 298 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:33.799 Tim Sanderfer. He's a stubborn guy, so I get it. 299 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.720 And it sounds like Lincoln, see, because little Lady is 300 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:41.080 the kind of formulation that he used. 301 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:43.960 He you know, he called you know, his wife Lila. 302 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:46.440 And Harriet might not know that, but but I know 303 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:50.120 that from diary entries and letters and and all the rest. 304 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:53.519 She comments on a certain phrase that he uses. 305 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:55.440 I like to fight like I like to have a 306 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:59.080 fire at home to home rather than at hom she has. 307 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:03.039 There are all these little extraneous details that have nothing 308 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:07.160 to do with the famous quote that to me give it. 309 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:08.880 Absolutely the feel of. 310 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:15.000 Very simility, in a very similitude accuracy. 311 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:17.279 Do I have a tape recording. 312 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:22.720 No, but I do believe that this is far more 313 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:27.119 likely than not. And again those who disagree have to 314 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:32.480 call someone a liar, the first journalist, or the daughter 315 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:35.559 and the son or Harriet herself. At least one of 316 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:39.559 those four has to be a liar for this conventional 317 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:40.759 view to be false. 318 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.240 All right, I have to let you go, but Roger 319 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:44.480 gets give him your best shot. 320 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:50.680 Oh well, after listening to Akiel a patiate on this 321 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:54.519 and Sundry, I was going to conclude with the quote 322 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:58.599 of Buckley. If you think it's difficult I agree with 323 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:04.079 or disagreeing with Harry, try agreeing with them. 324 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:05.920 We academics can be order. 325 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:07.079 Oh I know it, I know it. 326 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:15.039 But judge the the the point, the point that John 327 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:19.279 you made about when the question he raised when did 328 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:20.119 America begin? 329 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.119 I think I'm with a Kiel on that. With the 330 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:27.119 declaration of independence, but let's remember they saw it as 331 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:30.440 a league of friends under the articles. 332 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:31.880 Not exactly. 333 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:35.039 Yes, each state is sovereign, it's a mere treaty, it's 334 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:38.759 a confederation, and then when you switch to a constitution, 335 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:40.839 it's going to be a different But. 336 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:43.799 One of the things that the professor explains is when 337 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:48.200 they get to the Constitutional Convention and they're making these compromises, 338 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:54.200 this backdrop of northern abolition is already ongoing. Yes, and 339 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:57.799 this is why they think that this is, in its 340 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:02.240 natural course, going to lead to total abolition. And what 341 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:06.440 they did not anticipate was what would happen in the South. 342 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:09.880 And especially after the cotton project. 343 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:12.079 That's right, particularly South Carolina. 344 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:14.279 Yes, and South Carolina. 345 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:18.559 And Omar has Akil has raised the issue of women. 346 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:25.960 Let's not forget John adams wife. 347 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:25.599 Abigail, is amazed. 348 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.559 She was opposed to slavery. 349 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:34.079 She was the most anti slavery from the McCulloch book on. 350 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:35.559 John, she's in the book. 351 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:39.559 Everybody, Yeah, thank you, thank you so. 352 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.799 But this morning, on the immigration panel you were on, 353 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.559 I was very glad you brought up the importance of the. 354 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.359 Omission of the word expressly. 355 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:51.640 And that was beaten into me by my teacher of 356 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:54.000 cost social history was Leonard Levy. 357 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:57.279 Was absolutely fabulous. 358 00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:59.880 So here's what's really interesting. I don't think I have 359 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.200 met him. I did blurb a book that he wrote 360 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:09.079 about the Bill of I blurbed a book that he 361 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:14.480 wrote about the Bill of Rights. But in the last 362 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:20.640 fifty years. I believe there are really only two scholars 363 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:26.400 who tried to write about each amendment of the first ten, 364 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.880 and the only two that I could find that really 365 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:32.759 had done kind of original and deep thought about each amendment, 366 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:38.640 where Leonard Levy and yours truly And because we have 367 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:42.279 First Amendment experts, although many of them are only religion 368 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:45.119 folks or only speech and press folks, we got Second 369 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.240 Amendment folks, we got Fourth Amendment folks. We have some 370 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:52.640 criminal procedure folks. Levy tried to actually write about everything 371 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:55.519 in the Bill of Rights, and I've tried to do 372 00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:58.599 the same thing. And what I said even earlier today 373 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:01.279 is if you really want to be an originalist, you 374 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:06.119 have to do originalism across a wide range of issues, 375 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:10.240 rights and structure, criminal and civil, just to get a 376 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:14.519 proper sense of what kind of evidence you know is 377 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:18.039 good enough to be confident, just like, how much evidence 378 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:20.960 do I need in order to say I think actually 379 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:24.599 that Lincoln said that to Elizabeth Caston, You're going to 380 00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:27.160 be much better at answering that if you try to 381 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:30.839 ask questions like that in eighty other situations. 382 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.480 Aequille, we even have ninth Amendment. 383 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.319 Yes, we do, absolutely farmer, Rogers. 384 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:43.960 After all, if you're a textualist, you cannot ignore. 385 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:47.599 I agree, And we know why it's there. 386 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.960 Don't there's so many reasons over determined. 387 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:54.200 Of course, we know exactly why it's there. 388 00:21:54.279 --> 00:22:01.720 It's because, okay, sorry, it's it's because they understood that 389 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:07.039 once you start enumerting members of a class, the failure 390 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:08.440 to enumerate all. 391 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:12.759 Such members will be construed by ordinary principles of legal 392 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:17.839 construction as meaning only those that are enumerated are meant 393 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:21.559 to be protected, in contradistinction from those that are not. 394 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:26.200 So to make that crystal clear, they wrote, the enumeration 395 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:29.599 in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed 396 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:34.640 to deny or disparage others retained by the people. 397 00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:40.319 You can't retain what you don't first have to be retained. 398 00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:44.240 I don't know how you can state it anymore simply, 399 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:45.880 more clearly than. 400 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:46.319 That, Roger. 401 00:22:46.359 --> 00:22:49.880