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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 7: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening. This episode of True Murder is brought to
Speaker 2: you by Audible, the world's leading name in digital audio books.
Speaker 2: When Jerry Hyman's son arrived at his father's home in Everett, Washington,
Speaker 2: he found his grandmother in Alzheimer's patient alone in the house,
Speaker 2: starving and dehydrated. His father was missing, the furniture was gone.
Speaker 2: Within hours, police realized that Jerry's living housekeeper, Barbara Ople,
Speaker 2: had robbed him and fled, But where was Jerry. The
Speaker 2: next morning, Opal's eleven year old son led police to
Speaker 2: Jerry's body. Soon, stunned detectives were getting confessions from a
Speaker 2: rag tag group of teens and preteens. At Barbara Ople's command,
Speaker 2: they had set upon Jerry Hymen with knives, fists, and
Speaker 2: baseball bats and battered him to death. From thirteen year
Speaker 2: old Heather who frantically stabbed Jerry after having sex with
Speaker 2: her boyfriend, to seven year old Tiffany, who helped clean
Speaker 2: up the blood. This is the horrifying true story of
Speaker 2: how a mother turned her children and their friends into
Speaker 2: stone cold killers and then rewarded them for their crime.
Speaker 2: The book that we're featuring this evening is Mum Said Kill,
Speaker 2: with my special guest, journalist and author Burrel Bear. Welcome
Speaker 2: back to the program, the incomparable burrough Bear.
Speaker 8: It's always a pleasure to be on your show, Dad.
Speaker 2: And it's always a pleasure to have you on my show.
Speaker 2: And the audience reacts accordingly. Let's get right down to this.
Speaker 2: Another incredible story here and the subsequent book Mum Said
Speaker 2: Kill before we start, let's sure, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 8: Well, I was going to say, is my friend Tony Stevens,
Speaker 8: who was news director of the radio station ever Washington
Speaker 8: with the crime took place. If this murder, it's aftermath
Speaker 8: and the attempts by those involved to cover it up
Speaker 8: is so incredibly bizarre, so twist to the in both
Speaker 8: its conception and execution that I don't think we've ever
Speaker 8: witnessed a more tragic destruction of human life, not only
Speaker 8: by homicide, but by the manipulation of vulnerable youngsters. Now,
Speaker 8: this story isn't know who done, it's how they held
Speaker 8: what ever happened in the first place.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and that's what I like about your book,
Speaker 2: and we'll get to that as the story proceeds too.
Speaker 2: That this is again another we'll say typical birlbear in
Speaker 2: that there is the story, and then there is the
Speaker 2: story behind the story, and then the analysis of what
Speaker 2: we can possibly learn from, Like you say, such a senseless, bizarre,
Speaker 2: ridiculous waste of life. Anyway, let's get to let's get
Speaker 2: to some Let's get to some of the characters here.
Speaker 2: In one of the main characters is Barbara Ople and
Speaker 2: in two thousand and one, when this crime occurs, she
Speaker 2: is thirty eight. But tell us about Barbara Opoles, much
Speaker 2: as you found about Barbara Ople her upbringing. What was
Speaker 2: Barbara Ople like? And before we talked about how she
Speaker 2: became in the position to be a caretaker for Jerry Hymen.
Speaker 8: Essentially, i'd say that she was damaged in shipping and handling,
Speaker 8: and some of her contents may have settled. Even as
Speaker 8: a child. Her sister said that Barbara seemed to have
Speaker 8: some depooted problems, and an analysis of her medical examination
Speaker 8: whatever you want to call it evaluation, determined that she
Speaker 8: really did not have the thought capacity, the planning capacity
Speaker 8: of a mature adult. She was pretty much on the
Speaker 8: same level as her kids, except she was the authority
Speaker 8: figure she By the time she was an adult, she
Speaker 8: got married. She had two kids by her husband. That
Speaker 8: marriage was a failure. They were divorced, and he moved
Speaker 8: off to Spokane and sent money for the kids, but
Speaker 8: apparently it wasn't getting there. I guess she did not
Speaker 8: exactly have the world's best reputation. She was known as
Speaker 8: a loud, screaming, obnoxious woman who yelled at her kids,
Speaker 8: constantly dragged one kid through the mall by his hair.
Speaker 8: I mean, just you know, really domineering personality. But she
Speaker 8: also she was kind of on the same level as
Speaker 8: the kids. She did all the same things the kids did.
Speaker 8: She kind of played with them when they played, but
Speaker 8: when she went into that authority mode, all bets were
Speaker 8: off and the only way to stop the screaming, stop
Speaker 8: the abuse was just do whatever Mom said. No matter
Speaker 8: what it.
Speaker 2: Was now, where was the where was her husband? Is
Speaker 2: it Bill at this time? What was the marriage? How
Speaker 2: could you, I guess, characterize the marriage? And where the
Speaker 2: heck was he all this abuse? So tell us a
Speaker 2: little bit about his seven year marriage.
Speaker 8: He didn't stick around very long. It was always very volatile.
Speaker 8: She was always screaming and yelling, and I guess he'd
Speaker 8: screaming yell back. Finally, he divorced her, moved off to
Speaker 8: the other side of the state. He didn't really get
Speaker 8: to see his kids. He wanted to, but you know,
Speaker 8: it was she was supposed to let him see the kids,
Speaker 8: but that that just wasn't working out. It was always
Speaker 8: a problem. She then had an affair with mister Gudeau,
Speaker 8: who is the father of her young daughter, Tiffany. That's
Speaker 8: why Tiffany has a different last name than the other kids.
Speaker 8: Although she and mister Gudeau were.
Speaker 2: Never married, and he'll come into play a little bit
Speaker 2: later as a kind of an important figure once against.
Speaker 8: I'm in communication with his his his ex wife, Tricia.
Speaker 8: I'm pronouncing her name correctly. She also figures in the
Speaker 8: book quite promerly. As a matter of fact, at the
Speaker 8: very beginning, he was a colorful character that he was
Speaker 8: an admitted bank robber, but he didn't think that should
Speaker 8: affect the validity of his testimony in court. There's a
Speaker 8: really good muse that had nothing to do with his testimony.
Speaker 2: Yes, good luck with that. Now we're talking about this place, Everett, Washington.
Speaker 2: Now tell us what it's a close proximity to, so
Speaker 2: that we know geographically what we're talking about here, and
Speaker 2: what's Everett is it? Is it a suburb or is
Speaker 2: it a small town? What's it really like?
Speaker 8: It's a small town with its own rather historical identity.
Speaker 8: It's north of Seattle, just west of muckle Teo, which
Speaker 8: is another smaller town. But Everett at one time was
Speaker 8: a significant logging town in the Pacific Northwest. There's also
Speaker 8: a shipping from there. It's a lovely area. In fact,
Speaker 8: a lot of television shows shoot in Everett, Washington because
Speaker 8: it has a variety of architecture. It can stand in
Speaker 8: for almost any city in America. So there's actually Warner
Speaker 8: Brothers even has a sound stage in muckle Teo, which
Speaker 8: is next door to Evert and they do a lot
Speaker 8: of filming up there.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Now, tell us about this Jerry Hyman, And at this.
Speaker 8: Jerry Hyman had worked for Boeing, the Plain Building Company.
Speaker 8: In fact, the largest building in the world, not the tallest,
Speaker 8: but the largest building in the world is in Everett, Washington,
Speaker 8: and that was the airplane manufacturing plant of Boeing was
Speaker 8: headquartered there, which is now but it was for many
Speaker 8: many years, and he worked for Boeing. Retired from there,
Speaker 8: and unfortunately he was diagnosed with cancer. He was faced
Speaker 8: with a choice. He could to devote his time and
Speaker 8: energy to getting treeting for his cancer, or he could
Speaker 8: devote his time and energy to caring for his Alzheimer's
Speaker 8: afflicted mother. He chose to care for his mother. That
Speaker 8: was his entire focus, was not putting her off in
Speaker 8: a home or something, but taking care of her himself,
Speaker 8: living with her in the home, being a comfort to her,
Speaker 8: and concentrating more on the quality of life rather than
Speaker 8: the amount of it, I guess. And he needed some
Speaker 8: help around the house, and he just happened to bump
Speaker 8: into I think of the dairy queen, you know, fast
Speaker 8: food place, Barbara opol who had lived in so many
Speaker 8: different places. She'd been evicted continually or kicked out for
Speaker 8: not paying rent, living in her car with her three kids,
Speaker 8: and struck up a conversation with him, and she told
Speaker 8: him that she'd be a wonderful caretaker for his agent
Speaker 8: and in for her mother. And she convinced him and
Speaker 8: he moved to her and her kids into his home
Speaker 8: and they began taking care of this woman that the
Speaker 8: kids officially called grandma. And actually they did take good
Speaker 8: care of her when they were doing that.
Speaker 2: Now, how long was it? And and just to introduce
Speaker 2: the characters as well, that there is Derek, which is
Speaker 2: eleven years old, and Tiffany, the daughter, is seven years old,
Speaker 2: and Heather is at the time of the thirteen right, okay,
Speaker 2: so and the grandmother go ahead.
Speaker 8: I was gonna say Heather was to sound very strange
Speaker 8: to say, a wonderful kid. She did very very well
Speaker 8: in school, academically, charming personality and a sports star, A legend,
Speaker 8: A sports legend at an early age, especially in terms
Speaker 8: of basketball, A citer.
Speaker 2: She was.
Speaker 8: A great sportsperson, very athletic, and excelled on the team.
Speaker 8: Is the only problem was that the mother would show
Speaker 8: up and scream at her from the sidelines. But she
Speaker 8: was a very accomplished kid. I mean if you were
Speaker 8: to say, what kid in this school is going to
Speaker 8: commit violent murder, her name would not even be anywhere
Speaker 8: near the list. There's something that no one could conceive
Speaker 8: of her being involved in such a thing.
Speaker 2: Now, she was a really they said, a brilliant kid.
Speaker 2: So she's a very bright kid at the very least.
Speaker 2: What else was how else would you characterize her personality?
Speaker 2: Was she somewhat? She was outgoing? Was she shy? Was
Speaker 2: she a little naive?
Speaker 8: Was?
Speaker 2: What was the truth?
Speaker 8: Characterized her? Characterized her as naive at all, especially considering
Speaker 8: the life she'd lit living in a variety of places,
Speaker 8: having a dominating mother. I think perhaps her life really
Speaker 8: maybe flourished in that school environment away from home because
Speaker 8: she was admired, she was respected, she was accomplished, and
Speaker 8: she was very comfortable in the in the the the
Speaker 8: realm of school. And then everybody liked her and she
Speaker 8: was good looking kid.
Speaker 2: Now we we talked about Jerry Hyman a little bit.
Speaker 2: But what's interesting in your book is you talk about
Speaker 2: that a testament to the to this man's personality is
Speaker 2: that three of his really good friends happened to be
Speaker 2: ex wives.
Speaker 8: Ex wives. Yes, this is the guy Jerry, from everything
Speaker 8: I've learned about him, and I mentioned this the book,
Speaker 8: is one of these people that everybody liked. And maybe
Speaker 8: his problem with the marriages was in the plurality the
Speaker 8: probably women was only in the plurality, not of the personality.
Speaker 8: And his ex wives were still is among his best friends,
Speaker 8: and he was seriously considering remarrying one of them for
Speaker 8: the second time, I think her third time. I started
Speaker 8: to keep track, But everybody liked Jerry and he alway,
Speaker 8: we saw the best in everybody and brought out the
Speaker 8: best in other people. I've never heard an unkind word
Speaker 8: about Jerry on.
Speaker 2: Now. This is important to later in the story in
Speaker 2: that for all accounts Jerry's this is really great guy
Speaker 2: that has no problems with anybody, not with his kids,
Speaker 2: not with his uh, not with anyone. And and in
Speaker 2: it by all accounts too, he was very happy with
Speaker 2: the work that Barbara was doing, and he was happy
Speaker 2: with them being there in her entire family, her and
Speaker 2: her kids, and he was very generous with them as well.
Speaker 2: Was there any dark was there any sort of dark
Speaker 2: personality that he had? Did Jerry get drunk once in
Speaker 2: a while, and maybe he went the Heather was there,
Speaker 2: was there anything like that.
Speaker 8: He did drink, but he was not physically abusive, or
Speaker 8: i'd say the full extent of his quotes verbal abuse
Speaker 8: is he thought sometimes she dressed a little slutty, and
Speaker 8: he said so, you know, he would speak his mind.
Speaker 8: He wasn't the father, He wasn't enjoy but you know,
Speaker 8: he was an adult that he would make comments that
Speaker 8: you know, they should, you know, dress a little more conservatively.
Speaker 8: When when she went out with the other kids, he
Speaker 8: was very generous. He bought them all Christmas presents and
Speaker 8: very forgiving and overlooking of the fault. One time, Barbara,
Speaker 8: the primary caregiver of his mother, forged a check from
Speaker 8: I think about twelve hundred bucks and she had some
Speaker 8: excuse and he let it go. In fact, he even
Speaker 8: said to some of his friends that he was if
Speaker 8: you hear that I got murdered, I wouldn't be said
Speaker 8: Barbara did it. But he wouldn't get rid of her.
Speaker 8: He wouldn't fire her because weighing one thing against another,
Speaker 8: she and the kids took great care of his mom,
Speaker 8: kept the place very clean and nice, and he could
Speaker 8: put up with a little bit of a little bit
Speaker 8: of you know, figured life short, he die of cancer.
Speaker 8: He just wants to take care of his mom. He
Speaker 8: doesn't need the aggravation, you know. Okay, we'll just let
Speaker 8: let some things slide.
Speaker 2: Now. Was there when you talked about when I mentioned
Speaker 2: about was there any type of possible verbal abuse something
Speaker 2: that later on in the story, as we'll explain, is
Speaker 2: important if it's true or not true. When you say
Speaker 2: he thought she dressed a little bit slutty, did he
Speaker 2: indicate that use that kind of language or was he
Speaker 2: reasonable in his criticism, because then someone can turn that around.
Speaker 2: You know, a young girl is very sensitive and make misconstrue.
Speaker 8: Well, you know, I'll let me give you an example here.
Speaker 8: All right, everyone that got roped into killing Jerry Heather's friends,
Speaker 8: they all heard from her mother how horribly abusive Jerry
Speaker 8: was to her. And her best friend was this girl
Speaker 8: from every middle school named Mary and Oliver. And she says,
Speaker 8: this is from what the police officers told me. She
Speaker 8: told us of her involvement. She said that she'd been
Speaker 8: approached by Barbara Opel to kill Jerry Hymen, but Oliver
Speaker 8: declined because she didn't think she could do such a thing.
Speaker 8: She was always told that by Barbara that Heather was
Speaker 8: being abused. It was always Barbara telling people that all
Speaker 8: the people who were angry about it never saw it themselves. Now,
Speaker 8: Marian did get in trouble with Jerry because she hit
Speaker 8: him once with a baseball bat, not the time he
Speaker 8: was murdered, but at another time, and he didn't think
Speaker 8: they was particularly amusing to get out of there, So
Speaker 8: why did she hit him with a baseball?
Speaker 2: Back then?
Speaker 8: She was being very, very strange, And you know, it
Speaker 8: was one of those things of kind of a kid
Speaker 8: doing something that wasn't necessarily malicious to begin with. It
Speaker 8: just got a little out of hands. Sometimes kids swing
Speaker 8: things around and act a little peculiar, and their motives
Speaker 8: aren't really severely bad, but something unfortunate happens, and that
Speaker 8: was kind of a situation there. So Barbara kept telling
Speaker 8: people how horribly abusive he was. Now, when he drank,
Speaker 8: he may may have been cranky, but he never hurt
Speaker 8: these people. He was always financially generous, overlooked their faults,
Speaker 8: made sure they were comfortable and happy, and he, after all,
Speaker 8: he thought enough of them that he trusted his beloved
Speaker 8: mother to them to take care of her. You know,
Speaker 8: feed her, bathe her, all that stuff.
Speaker 2: Now let's get to because we were already speaking about it.
Speaker 2: Jerry has a son named Greg, and he hasn't seen
Speaker 2: him in five years. And like you had said that
Speaker 2: Jerry had just found out, and I guess that the
Speaker 2: son had found out. You can correct me if I'm
Speaker 2: wrong about the terminal cancer. And him and his wife
Speaker 2: were coming flying in from Arkansas to visit with the father.
Speaker 2: And that's when take it. Basically from there. They get
Speaker 2: off the plane, they expect Jerry to be I mean a.
Speaker 8: Big build up. Not only was a big build up
Speaker 8: for Greg and his wife, but also for Jerry. He
Speaker 8: was so looking forward to seeing his son, and the
Speaker 8: son and his wife was so looking forward to seeing Dad.
Speaker 8: I mean Jerry went out and he bought all their
Speaker 8: favorite foods. I mean they were going to have a
Speaker 8: wonderful time, you know. I mean this is something level
Speaker 8: of expectation was right up there. And they get off
Speaker 8: the plane expecting Dad to meet him. Dad's not there,
Speaker 8: and they wait and they wait and they wait and
Speaker 8: they call the house and there's no answer, which is
Speaker 8: double peculiar because even if Dad somehow got the time,
Speaker 8: is mixed up. Certainly Barbara, the caregiver, would answer the phone,
Speaker 8: but there was no answer. Finally, they took a cab
Speaker 8: all the way from SeaTac Airport to Everett. Went to
Speaker 8: the house and no one's opening the door, and there
Speaker 8: were even things on the front ports had been left
Speaker 8: there for Jerry to give with them by actually his
Speaker 8: girlfriend or ex wife or whatever. Greg finally lets himself
Speaker 8: into the house. He finds an open window or something
Speaker 8: gets in there, and there's his grandmother, dehydrated, sitting at
Speaker 8: the table in the Berkeley empty room in a wheelchair,
Speaker 8: eating newspaper that it's on the table because there's only
Speaker 8: things she could get to put in her mouth. Now,
Speaker 8: this obviously doesn't look good at all.
Speaker 2: He has, and she soiled her and she's been sitting
Speaker 2: in her own and she's sitting in her own thesis
Speaker 2: for for this amount of time.
Speaker 8: And none of this, of course makes an he's sense
Speaker 8: to him. Now, you can't really make sense out of
Speaker 8: something that doesn't make sense. So he doesn't quite know
Speaker 8: what to do. And now it's you know, later in
Speaker 8: the day, later in the evening, he's calling all around
Speaker 8: looking for his dad, trying to find him his dad's
Speaker 8: ex wife comes over to help look and try to
Speaker 8: find him and just can't make sense. Plus you've had
Speaker 8: a long flight, so they you know, try to rest
Speaker 8: up whatever. You know.
Speaker 2: What else is well, the other suspicious not suspicious thing
Speaker 2: is because they talked to the neighbor. They come to
Speaker 2: a house that was normally filled with things and the
Speaker 2: place is empty.
Speaker 8: Yeah, there's all sorts of furniture missing. And the neighbor
Speaker 8: lady you know, oh yeah, you all came in the
Speaker 8: and gee, we heard he was off in Las Vegas.
Speaker 8: I mean, things just didn't make any sense. This didn't
Speaker 8: add up. And what is really ironic is that the
Speaker 8: Ever Police Department gets a phone call pertually the same
Speaker 8: day from Missus Goudeau, who calls to tell the Ever
Speaker 8: Police Department that she thinks Barbara Ople is going to
Speaker 8: kill Jerry Hymen.
Speaker 2: Why is that?
Speaker 8: Well, that's what the police one know. She wouldn't leave
Speaker 8: her name. She just got this you know, like crime
Speaker 8: stoppers tip or whatever. So they get this fellow to
Speaker 8: like from you know, elderly Services or whatever they call it,
Speaker 8: to go buy there, to go buy the house and
Speaker 8: check on him. Well, he shows up it's the next morning,
Speaker 8: and Greig's there and guys, gee, I'm glad you're okay.
Speaker 8: So though I'm not my dad, we don't know where
Speaker 8: my dad is. It's very peculiar that it's all all
Speaker 8: kind of you know, happens at the same time. And
Speaker 8: then of course they now in the daylight, they see
Speaker 8: there's blood stains on the wheelchair, blood stains a little drops,
Speaker 8: the blood on the wall and the ceiling, on the chandelier,
Speaker 8: you know. And then where's Barbara Ople? Where's Barbara and
Speaker 8: the kids? You know? I mean, they call the cops.
Speaker 8: The cops are there, and no, sooner do you have
Speaker 8: cops there than the phone rings or whatever. And it's
Speaker 8: one of the other policemen totally disconnected from this, informing
Speaker 8: them that Barbara Ople has just been in a traffic
Speaker 8: mishap driving a U haul truck filled with furniture a
Speaker 8: few blocks away.
Speaker 2: Now, what was the other The other thing that was
Speaker 2: very suspicious was that Jerry, being a business guy, padlocked
Speaker 2: his bedroom, his office bedroom, his room. And when they
Speaker 2: came what did they find, which, again, they found.
Speaker 8: That everything had been gone through, papers were strewn everywhere.
Speaker 8: Tornado hit the place, That was also very unustul because
Speaker 8: I was totally out of character with his father. But no,
Speaker 8: you don't want to think in your mind that, geez,
Speaker 8: someone came in here, ransacked my dad's house. My dad's missing,
Speaker 8: they kidnapped him her. You know, you don't want to
Speaker 8: put your head in that place, especially after traveling all
Speaker 8: that way to see your dad. They figured there must
Speaker 8: be some rational explanation for this. Well, there never was
Speaker 8: a rational explanation for any of it, not for the homicide,
Speaker 8: not for the aftermath, not for the crime or the
Speaker 8: follow up. The whole thing is irrational.
Speaker 2: Well, let's just go back just slightly, because you talked
Speaker 2: about missus Goodot, and we didn't talk about the information.
Speaker 2: Where she got this information and what it was.
Speaker 8: Is they where she got the information and how the
Speaker 8: cops knew it was her with the cops had a
Speaker 8: call her idea on their phone, it showed where they
Speaker 8: call came from. The reason she called is her husband,
Speaker 8: Henry I believe his name is. He had been approached
Speaker 8: by Barbara Ople to kill Jerry Hyman. She says she
Speaker 8: paid ten grand to do it.
Speaker 2: He was her ex girlfriend and they had they'd been together. Drinking.
Speaker 8: Yep, he went over there and put away a lot
Speaker 8: of beer, stayed overnight, and then goes on to his
Speaker 8: wife and tells her that Barbara offered him, you know,
Speaker 8: at least ten thousand dollars to kill this guy that
Speaker 8: does to take care of his mom. He's kind of
Speaker 8: upset about that. Of course, his wife is double upset,
Speaker 8: and she tips off the cops just in case. And
Speaker 8: the timing on that was for a bit of a
Speaker 8: day earlier. It might have been a big difference, but
Speaker 8: that's what that's what she called.
Speaker 2: Now getting back to the accident that brings her to
Speaker 2: the police's the police attention through this, the phone call
Speaker 2: and the other murder plot that just happens to be
Speaker 2: while they're looking at this scene potentially as a murder
Speaker 2: least missing person. Now Barbara's in an accident with a
Speaker 2: step into.
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Speaker 2: U Haul, How do police proceed with her? And what
Speaker 2: exactly are the first responding police? What they talk to Barbara?
Speaker 2: What do they know or what do they think? And
Speaker 2: what's there? How do the police proceed?
Speaker 8: Well, they really don't know what the hell happened because
Speaker 8: they don't know where Jerry is now. The here's this
Speaker 8: is it? It was about i'd say twenty four hours
Speaker 8: after they arrived, after Greg and Teresa flew in from
Speaker 8: a seatag. I guess, guys, it was officer sessions. They
Speaker 8: cut at Barbara Ople and Jeffrey Growt. They had this
Speaker 8: U haul. We'll get to to who Jeffrey isn't a
Speaker 8: bit but anyway, Yeah, they were staying at the Roadway Inn,
Speaker 8: which is a tell in every ball way, not not
Speaker 8: really that far from from Jerry's house. Uh so they
Speaker 8: she was driving, I guess, with suspended licenses and I
Speaker 8: was supposed to be driving the darn thing anyway. And uh,
Speaker 8: of course the cops want to interview her and the
Speaker 8: kids on you know, where they heck is Jerry and
Speaker 8: while he was staying in a motel and you know,
Speaker 8: they said, oh, they didn't know that he was out
Speaker 8: of town. They hadn't seen him in a few days.
Speaker 8: You know. It wasn't until the cops got the kids,
Speaker 8: the youngest ones alone, which is unusual. And I don't
Speaker 8: know if it's ethical or not, because there are rules
Speaker 8: about talking to kids, you know, And I think they
Speaker 8: did have a child protects the services person there, and
Speaker 8: I believe it was little Teresa is the one that said, oh,
Speaker 8: Jerry's dead. Just came right out and told him. And
Speaker 8: then they bring him the sun and he's says, oh,
Speaker 8: I know where the body is. I don't say where
Speaker 8: the body is. So now things start to unravel real fast.
Speaker 8: But of course people may be asking, why would this
Speaker 8: woman have her kids murder this guy. What possible motive
Speaker 8: could there be when he's taking care of them, giving
Speaker 8: him place to live. Very simple, not the undonsensical, but simple.
Speaker 8: Barbara Opal discovered that Jerry had forty thousand dollars in
Speaker 8: his bank account. She wanted the forty thousand, so, gee,
Speaker 8: if we killed Jerry, we can get that money. In
Speaker 8: her mind, now you must understand, and this was used
Speaker 8: as part of her defense in the trial, that if
Speaker 8: you're going to kill somebody, not that it's the same
Speaker 8: thing to do, but if you plan to murder someone
Speaker 8: and steal their money, you would plan on trying to
Speaker 8: get away with murder and trying to get away with
Speaker 8: the money. Barbara, people does not think that far. She
Speaker 8: only thought, as far as I want Jerry killed. She
Speaker 8: had never crossed her mind what she was going to do.
Speaker 8: Once the body hit the floor, she had never even
Speaker 8: thought about that, never considered it. What do I do? Now,
Speaker 8: you know, how do I not get caught? Where do
Speaker 8: I go? What do I do? None of that, None
Speaker 8: of that crossed her mind. And that was used as
Speaker 8: a defense. If you're going to kill someone and steal
Speaker 8: their money, you have some sort of plan. Well she
Speaker 8: didn't none whatsoever. All that did was load up a
Speaker 8: U haul, take it down the road, park at the
Speaker 8: parking lot. That stayed in the motel room, and she
Speaker 8: went out and wrote a check on an apartment for
Speaker 8: them to live, and put a down payment on an
Speaker 8: apartment from Jerry's checkbook, and had dinner at Denny's restaurant
Speaker 8: after he was murdered.
Speaker 2: Now let's get to the sorry, let's get to the plan,
Speaker 2: the murder plant. Though she had she had spoken to
Speaker 2: her her ex, Henry Goodot, and again obviously he wasn't
Speaker 2: game for this plan. There was a boy that came
Speaker 2: into Heather's life. They met at the roller rink, they
Speaker 2: went bowling the next day. They had sex, as young
Speaker 2: people do, very quickly at the home at Jerry Hyman's
Speaker 2: home with the mother present or around the home. And
Speaker 2: she knew of this. Oh, yeah, she's like you say,
Speaker 2: the book tell us, tell us what some mothers might well,
Speaker 2: what kind of discussion they might have.
Speaker 8: With the boyfriend. She wanted to fall guys. She wanted
Speaker 8: someone who was supposed to being an adult who wasn't
Speaker 8: the was. She'd apposed a few other people about doing
Speaker 8: this and they all didn't take her seriously. They said no,
Speaker 8: but this a nice looking athletics strong guy. And it
Speaker 8: was a very sports sports person too, like a speed
Speaker 8: skater type. And uh, maryon Oliver goes up to a
Speaker 8: Jeff and says, my girlfriend thinks you're cute, go meet her.
Speaker 8: So he meets Heather and she's cute and he's not
Speaker 8: a bad looking guy, asks her to go bowling, as
Speaker 8: you mentioned, and next thing, you know, one strike, two strikes,
Speaker 8: and they're having sex in her little brother's bedroom back
Speaker 8: at Jerry Hyman's house. The mother is totally aware of it.
Speaker 8: In fact, she's encouraging it, and this is kind of
Speaker 8: her plan from the get go. She wanted to hook
Speaker 8: this kid in, so she used her, you know, just
Speaker 8: turning fourteen year old daughter's budding sexuality as bait. And
Speaker 8: when he comes out of the bedroom, she says him
Speaker 8: down to have a serious talk. It's not about safe sex,
Speaker 8: it's about murder. As will you you know, poor Heather,
Speaker 8: will you help Heather kill Jerry? And first he's you know,
Speaker 8: he's not keen on the idea, but she sweetens the deal. Hey, listen,
Speaker 8: I'll get your car some money. Oh oh, in that case, sure,
Speaker 8: she is picking people, you know, she's hand picking people
Speaker 8: who are not the most stable, you know, on the
Speaker 8: ball people on the planet. She's picking people that have
Speaker 8: either got some sort of weakness to exploit, or some
Speaker 8: anti social issues, or they're problematic kids in the first place.
Speaker 8: You know, she lets kids come over and you know,
Speaker 8: of course it's legal in Washington, but it wasn't legal.
Speaker 8: Then she's getting them high on pot. Plus she's given
Speaker 8: them some alcohol, which has never been legal. There still
Speaker 8: isn't to give miners alcohol. And she was kind of
Speaker 8: the party mom, you know. And then she tell them
Speaker 8: all these stories about how horrible Jerry was, and they
Speaker 8: just took her word for it. And the youngest ones
Speaker 8: was the youngest thirteen. They were under the impression all
Speaker 8: they're going to do is beat this guy up. But
Speaker 8: Jeffrey and his cousin. I think do full well of
Speaker 8: what the plan was, and that was to kill him,
Speaker 8: because Barbara wanted that forty grand She told her daughter
Speaker 8: Heather that if you help kill Jerry, I'll get you
Speaker 8: a brand new dirt bike. Well, and she and Heather rode.
Speaker 8: In her diary, Bomb says, if I kill Jerry, I
Speaker 8: could have a dirt bike. Oh boy, there you go.
Speaker 2: Now what was you said? That? She's not one for
Speaker 2: much of a plan at all. But what was the
Speaker 2: semblance of a plan other than to kill him? Was
Speaker 2: it to do it? Did she have any idea where
Speaker 2: they should kill him? How did she kill him? I'll
Speaker 2: say what the excuse might be? Anything.
Speaker 8: Well, first she tried to poison him by putting weed
Speaker 8: killer in his pizza. That didn't work. So then she
Speaker 8: enlists these kids. And the idea is, Jerry's going to
Speaker 8: come home from you know, the local tavern where he
Speaker 8: has out with his buddies. He's going to come home.
Speaker 8: You hide and wait for him. When he walks through
Speaker 8: the door, you beat him to a pulp with baseball
Speaker 8: bats and then stab him to death. And when he
Speaker 8: walked through the door, there were these kids, the oldest
Speaker 8: one with a full sized bat. The younger ones have
Speaker 8: these little souvenir bats. And Barbara is downstairs in the
Speaker 8: basically kind of actor as a cheerleader, you know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 8: DoD do do do it. And she's got Mariam Oliver
Speaker 8: and her two little kids down there with her. When
Speaker 8: Mariam realizes what's going on, she tries to jump out
Speaker 8: the window and run away, and one versus the story,
Speaker 8: Barbara grabs hers says, how can you leave when your
Speaker 8: best friend is upstairs killing someone? And Heather was upstairs,
Speaker 8: how can you leave her? You go up there and
Speaker 8: help out. In fact, it was Mary Him who goes upstairs.
Speaker 8: And this guy's been beaten. He's been stabbed by Heather
Speaker 8: several times, stabbed by Mary him and then finally she
Speaker 8: takes the baseball bat and crushes his skulls as well.
Speaker 8: If he wasn't dead before, he is.
Speaker 2: Now Now tell us all the members of this little
Speaker 2: murder squad. We've got Derek the eleven year old, We've
Speaker 2: got Tiffany the seven year old is there.
Speaker 8: Well, they're down in the fat but they're not participating
Speaker 8: in the in the killing part, right, They in the cleanup.
Speaker 8: But you have Heather, the daughter, her eighteen year old boyfriend, Jeff,
Speaker 8: his cousin who is about thirteen fourteen, Kyle, and a
Speaker 8: couple of buddies that his about the same age, and
Speaker 8: two of them. When they realize things are going out
Speaker 8: of hand, that things are more than just beating this
Speaker 8: guy up, they immediately leave. They run away because they
Speaker 8: don't want any part of, you know, something that bad.
Speaker 8: They just thought, you know, going to punch the guy
Speaker 8: in the nose. They punched it in the nose, and
Speaker 8: when he thought they were still getting beaten, they went
Speaker 8: ah and they ran away. But it was basically came
Speaker 8: down to Jeff and Heather and Miriam who polished the
Speaker 8: thing off and now there's blood everywhere and poor Jerry's
Speaker 8: dead on the floor to make seven year old Tiffany
Speaker 8: leaning up the brains in the blood. Then they wrapped
Speaker 8: the body up in a carpet or whatever and put
Speaker 8: it in the truck and they got fire where we're
Speaker 8: going to dump the body and they dump it out
Speaker 8: on the Indian reservation. I mean, it's just, you know,
Speaker 8: it's a horri horrible, horrifying story that is made even
Speaker 8: more horrifying by the ineptitude, stupidity, and irrationality with the
Speaker 8: people who did it. The whole thing is just trying.
Speaker 8: And then there are people who had nothing to do
Speaker 8: with this who get roped into it. I think it's
Speaker 8: Kyle's cousin. The girl winds up in the truck with
Speaker 8: one of these guys. She has no idea what's going on,
Speaker 8: she doesn't know what's happened, and all of a sudden
Speaker 8: they're off dumping a body in the woods and she's there.
Speaker 8: You know. They tell like, don't say anything, will kill you. You
Speaker 8: know what she's supposed to do. It's a horrifying situation.
Speaker 2: What was most horrifying to me in terms of just
Speaker 2: picturing it is the idea that Jerry Hyman's mother, who oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know he was there.
Speaker 8: Yes, they killed Jerry Hymon right in front of his mother,
Speaker 8: and there was the thing she could do except sit
Speaker 8: there in the wheelchair and watch incredible And then they
Speaker 8: left the weather in the dark. They debated whether or
Speaker 8: not to kill her, but they decided to know they
Speaker 8: were just they didn't want to do that, so they
Speaker 8: just left her sitting at the table.
Speaker 2: So they knew that they obviously the family knew that
Speaker 2: she wasn't going to be much of a witness whatsoever.
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, because she couldn't talk, you know, she was
Speaker 8: ah yeah, you know she someone came for it all
Speaker 8: the time. So they just just left her there, which, Adam,
Speaker 8: is horrifying enough that they murdered this fellow in front
Speaker 8: of his mother and then they leave her there in
Speaker 8: the dark with no food, no water.
Speaker 2: You know, now this in short order obviously that the
Speaker 2: police sort this out because they have the whole family
Speaker 2: and they have so many people to basically to testify potentially,
Speaker 2: but also just there were witnesses to this atrocity before
Speaker 2: we get to the trial. Was there any tell us
Speaker 2: about that procedure? Was it fairly seamless in terms of
Speaker 2: it hard to get.
Speaker 8: To the facts, very difficult because you're dealing with kids.
Speaker 8: I mean really, you're dealing with the exception of Jeff,
Speaker 8: who was eighteen, the rest of these people are thirteen
Speaker 8: years old, fourteen years old, eleven years old. And they
Speaker 8: brought in and the court brought in the defense brought
Speaker 8: in experts on children and children's thought processes, and that
Speaker 8: they don't even well for the most part, don't eve
Speaker 8: and understand basic things that are said to them, such
Speaker 8: as you have a right to remain silent. They think
Speaker 8: that means don't make noise in the courtroom. They do,
Speaker 8: you know, you have a right to legal representation. They
Speaker 8: even know what that means. You know, you have a
Speaker 8: right to retain an attorney. What efficult look up the
Speaker 8: word retain, you know. I mean, they really don't even
Speaker 8: know what is transpiring, you know, what's at stake of
Speaker 8: what's going on. So it's a big issue whether or
Speaker 8: not these peak these kids should be tried as adults
Speaker 8: and sent to an adult prison, or whether should they
Speaker 8: should be tried as adult sense as an adults to
Speaker 8: spend a certain amount of time in the juvenile prison
Speaker 8: and then be sent off to the crime school of
Speaker 8: the big House, you know. So there was a great
Speaker 8: deal of discussion and legal arguing about what to do
Speaker 8: with these kids. It was finally decided, much to their shock,
Speaker 8: to try all of them as if they were adults,
Speaker 8: except uh for I think one of the youngest of
Speaker 8: the boys, uh who ran away when this happened, and
Speaker 8: uh he didn't get able to say, you know, but uh,
Speaker 8: in fact, I think when when they were interviewing Heather,
Speaker 8: and he said, I'm in trouble on't I mean? I'm
Speaker 8: paraphrasing here, and he says, am I going to have
Speaker 8: to spend a lot of time in juv meaning juvenile hall.
Speaker 8: I only stabbed him, you know, twice or nine times,
Speaker 8: whatever it was, am I. You know, well, what's a
Speaker 8: long time to you in juvie? She said, two weeks?
Speaker 8: You know, she got what like twenty some years?
Speaker 2: You know, why? Why did what? How did how did
Speaker 2: the judge justify this? You've got to you've got a
Speaker 2: kid again. We're getting into the trial a little bit here,
Speaker 2: But how does he decline UH to treat her as
Speaker 2: a juvenile? And and again not every state has UH
Speaker 2: the ability to under seventeen or under an apartment under
Speaker 2: sixteen to be able to take somebody to an adult court.
Speaker 2: So is there no controversy in the law.
Speaker 8: It was very controversial at the time. It was because
Speaker 8: of the especially heinous nature of the crime, you know,
Speaker 8: the obvious premeditation, the planning, the somewhat humor and delight
Speaker 8: they seemed to take in him, and they thought it
Speaker 8: was funny that after he was murdered, they went out
Speaker 8: to Denny's Restaurant for what was called the Grand Slam Breakfast.
Speaker 8: They thought there was rather amusing. I mean, it is
Speaker 8: so twisted that what they could tell and there, you know,
Speaker 8: says the evaluations of Heather, because there's this bright, bright girl.
Speaker 8: And yet to this day, from what I to stand,
Speaker 8: she does not see her mother in a bad light.
Speaker 8: She was so much of whatever Mom said was the
Speaker 8: thing to do. And you know, if Mom, whatever Mom said,
Speaker 8: you went along with. And if Mom wanted to exaggerate
Speaker 8: the relationship with her and Jerry, if she no, matter
Speaker 8: what she did, she don't cross Mom. Total, total, instant,
Speaker 8: exact and complete obedience to whatever Mom says.
Speaker 2: Now, how did Mom try to defend herself, at least
Speaker 2: at first to the police and then later at trial
Speaker 2: was the what was her strategy was? How did she
Speaker 2: try to get out of this?
Speaker 8: She tried to blame everything first on Jeff, that she
Speaker 8: just wanted him, just wanted Jerry beat up. But it
Speaker 8: was jeff idea to kill him, Jeff's idea to wrap
Speaker 8: the body in the carpet, Jeff's idea to dumb the
Speaker 8: body on the Indian reservation. And then later she tried
Speaker 8: to blame it all on her daughter, on Heather. She
Speaker 8: was perfectly willing to throw Heather under the the bus,
Speaker 8: blame anything to take it off herself. I mean, the
Speaker 8: woman's a real piece of work. She's not going to win,
Speaker 8: you know, Mother of the Year, a queen for a
Speaker 8: day's staff. Just horrifying.
Speaker 2: How did the media respond to this, because this is
Speaker 2: another dimension to a killer Kids is pretty unusual, you know,
Speaker 2: but then when you have this killer, a killer mom
Speaker 2: directing the killer kids, and the kind of details like
Speaker 2: the seven year old picking up pieces of the skull
Speaker 2: and putting in the trash and cleaning up the blood,
Speaker 2: and the eleven year old participating in all of these
Speaker 2: kids participating, it is a news.
Speaker 8: The residual damage of this. Now, when my book Bomb
Speaker 8: Said Kill first came out in paperback, it was of
Speaker 8: course on the shelves at the the store, the grocery
Speaker 8: store or whatever up there in Effort marries Well, Washington,
Speaker 8: where Tiffany, who was seven at the time, was now
Speaker 8: of course older. The book came out recently, a couple
Speaker 8: of years ago. She requested that the book be taken
Speaker 8: off the shelves in the store because it was so
Speaker 8: painful for her to go to the grocery store and
Speaker 8: see this picture of her mother, you know, on the
Speaker 8: cover of this book, you know. And he actually they
Speaker 8: did take the book off the shelf, which I was
Speaker 8: a too thrilled about, But like, if nothing else is
Speaker 8: going to remind kiffany of what happened. Yeah, but the brother,
Speaker 8: this is really tragic here. His mom has been sent
Speaker 8: there I'm getting out of the story, but you can
Speaker 8: figure it out easily enough. The mom is sent to
Speaker 8: life in prison, his sister is sentenced to for twenty
Speaker 8: three years or something. What does he want to do?
Speaker 8: He wants to go to prison too. You know, who
Speaker 8: wouldn't you Bama's going to prison. I said, what can
Speaker 8: I do to go to prison? You know, how much
Speaker 8: trouble can I get in? And how fast? You know,
Speaker 8: like somehow that's going to read night them or something.
Speaker 8: So it's been real problematic for him.
Speaker 2: Now at trial. What was the dynamic in terms of
Speaker 2: if if Barbara's trying to blame her daughter, and Barbara's
Speaker 2: trying to initially blame the boyfriend, the new boyfriend, I
Speaker 2: mean it was only a boyfriend. It was a week
Speaker 2: after he met Heather and well he's in this major trouble.
Speaker 2: What was the dynamic at court? Who testified against the
Speaker 2: mother who was the damaging uh oh.
Speaker 8: Everybody had their dog testified against the mother. The people
Speaker 8: who had Henry Grudeau of course testified that she tried
Speaker 8: to get him to kill And the defense is saying, well,
Speaker 8: aren't you just saying this is coming to Barbara because
Speaker 8: they don't want your wife mad at you because she
Speaker 8: was mad that you spent the night over Barbara's house.
Speaker 8: And he's going, no, I'm not saying, it's just being
Speaker 8: to what my wife bad at me. You know, this
Speaker 8: is the truth. They were as to a bank robber, Well,
Speaker 8: I was once, but that with it, you know, the
Speaker 8: defense really, I mean, she got the best defense one
Speaker 8: could possibly get under the circumstances. And it's important for
Speaker 8: people to have the best defense possible because what the
Speaker 8: defense attorneys are defending here in the States is they're
Speaker 8: defending the law. They're defending the constitution because you don't
Speaker 8: want people convicted if there's reasonable doubt. But in this case,
Speaker 8: there absolutely was no reasonable doubt as to who did what.
Speaker 8: Who was all very very clear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And now so you say that Heather, and
Speaker 2: you write in a book too, Heather really doesn't have
Speaker 2: any it doesn't really hate her.
Speaker 8: Mother, no, not at all. They still thinks her mom's
Speaker 8: just well I mean, I mean kids, everyone wants to
Speaker 8: love their mother no matter what.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and.
Speaker 8: Uh, what else can she do? I mean she did.
Speaker 8: She was a good kid. She did what her mom.
Speaker 8: You know, always do what your parents say, kids, and
Speaker 8: you know she did what her mom said.
Speaker 2: How does how does Jeffrey g Grow feel about this
Speaker 2: whole thing?
Speaker 8: Well, I think he really felt screwed over in a
Speaker 8: big way. Interesting that that jeff You know, he got
Speaker 8: fifty years in prison and he has an ad out there.
Speaker 8: You know, if you want to write a prisoner about
Speaker 8: what a nice guy he is and how he likes
Speaker 8: his soul music and he's into sports and he really
Speaker 8: likes a good pinpal. Yeah, I mean, because here's another
Speaker 8: guy whose life was ruined. He could have gone on
Speaker 8: the rest of his days without probably ever being in trouble.
Speaker 8: Now that tells us.
Speaker 2: Now, now this is a good segue. We can use
Speaker 2: this as a good segue because again, as I mentioned
Speaker 2: in the beginning of our program, what I like about
Speaker 2: your books and what your fans like about your books too,
Speaker 2: is that there's an added dimension to the story in
Speaker 2: terms of some analysis. Try to come up with some
Speaker 2: semblance of sense to this, in terms of again it's
Speaker 2: a cliche to avoid and prevent, but you really try
Speaker 2: to do that. You try to go that extra mile
Speaker 2: in terms of all the available information. And so in
Speaker 2: this book which I thought was which was again I'm
Speaker 2: a little bit of a skeptic, so I can open
Speaker 2: my mind to this thanks to you, about brain injury
Speaker 2: and psychopathology in terms of, oh yeah, what can we
Speaker 2: what can we learn about? Why would these people do this?
Speaker 2: For this clearly psychopathic woman, Barbara Ople The rewards weren't
Speaker 2: that great. These people seem to be decent people, and
Speaker 2: without like you mentioned, without this faithful circumstance, they would
Speaker 2: have went on to do nothing like this. So what
Speaker 2: how now?
Speaker 8: Love may have been in trouble a kyle, you know,
Speaker 8: something like to imagine themselves as being tough, gangsterish guy,
Speaker 8: you know, at thirteen, playing a role. But when push
Speaker 8: came to shove, he didn't want to be part of murder,
Speaker 8: you know. And as for Marriam Oliver, she said, I
Speaker 8: got mad because she's my best friend. I didn't want
Speaker 8: anyone hurting her. And uh, you know, Barbara was I
Speaker 8: was saying, oh, she's your best friend. Don't you want
Speaker 8: to help her get back at Jerry? He's so mean
Speaker 8: to her. The one telephone call, I was looking my
Speaker 8: own book. Here. She kept asking Marriam. She helped do
Speaker 8: this murder and a round march. Barbara assisted with several
Speaker 8: more attempts. One time she asked me, said, Miriam, do
Speaker 8: you want to kill Jerry with us? I was shocked
Speaker 8: and I said no. She later had changed her She
Speaker 8: changed her mind. If we got caught, she was told,
Speaker 8: blame everything on Jeff. This is what Barbara Opel told
Speaker 8: Mary Muliver, if we get caught, blame everything on Jeff. So,
Speaker 8: I mean, Barbara at least had figured out who she
Speaker 8: was going to blame for this.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 8: Now she would always tell these stories. And it's interesting
Speaker 8: that these dramatic vignettes that she would tell these kids,
Speaker 8: that Barbara would tell these kids about how bad Jerry was.
Speaker 8: She would say, he almost hit Heather, he almost hit Derek.
Speaker 8: I was afraid he was going to hit so and so,
Speaker 8: or he could have easily hit so and so. Upon reflection,
Speaker 8: Mary admitted that she never heard of Jerry actually hitting anyone,
Speaker 8: only that he almost hit someone. You know, but you
Speaker 8: keep telling these stories over long enough, long enough these
Speaker 8: impressionable kids, and they all want a band together to
Speaker 8: protect poor Heather, to get a dirt bike. So she's
Speaker 8: keeping her mouth shut.
Speaker 2: Yeah, incredible.
Speaker 8: It's interesting that wed now you When Heather was a
Speaker 8: waiting trial and she was in juvie, the other kids
Speaker 8: in juvie were kind of giving her a bad time.
Speaker 8: You know, Hey, where's that dirt bike you're gonna get?
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Speaker 8: You talked about the psychopaths? Who want me to address
Speaker 8: that issue. There's two ways that we know of scientifically
Speaker 8: to be a psychopath. One is this a birth defect
Speaker 8: of brain processing. People who are psychopaths their brains do
Speaker 8: not process information the same as people who are not.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 8: The expression used by doctor Robert Hare, the world's leading
Speaker 8: expert who happens to be a Canadian and be quite
Speaker 8: proud of that is this statement is they know the words,
Speaker 8: but they can't hear the music. And the example I
Speaker 8: use is I draw analogy with my brother who is
Speaker 8: not a psychopath, but my brother is colorblind. You can
Speaker 8: talk about red, blue, green, and yellow all you want,
Speaker 8: but he's never seen it, and the expression red hot
Speaker 8: means nothing to him because he doesn't know what red is.
Speaker 8: And all the amount of support groups, all the amount
Speaker 8: of counseling in the world is not going to endow
Speaker 8: my brother with the ability to see red, comprehend green
Speaker 8: or blue or yellow or any of those That chip
Speaker 8: is missing. Psychopaths are missing the emotion ship. It's not
Speaker 8: that they are complex people at all, it's just the opposite.
Speaker 8: Their interior world is very one dimensional, very flat. They
Speaker 8: see themselves at the center of the universe, see themselves
Speaker 8: as victims. They don't care about anybody but themselves. And
Speaker 8: it's interesting that the psychopathic murderer Hickman was the model
Speaker 8: for an Rand and her book Antler Shrugged. She thought
Speaker 8: that the psychopath was a great embodiment of the American
Speaker 8: spirit because all he cared about was himself. Go figure out.
Speaker 2: Well now. But according to Robert Hare, though like just
Speaker 2: to you know, be Devil's advocate, here is that there
Speaker 2: are He describes psychopaths who might be a boss, or
Speaker 2: might be an ambitious will say, I don't know, director
Speaker 2: or a movie or something very successful, narcissistic, maybe egocentric,
Speaker 2: maybe verbally abusive to people used to a lot of power.
Speaker 2: But certainly no one would say, oh yeah, but that
Speaker 2: means that they have the capacity or the inclination or
Speaker 2: any other adjective towards a violent outcome, especially murder. So
Speaker 2: how can once you identify that somebody has this this.
Speaker 8: Effect maybe the subtle difference or not so subtle difference
Speaker 8: in a sociopath and a psychopath. As doctor Hayre said,
Speaker 8: the largest collection of sociopaths was the Vancouver' Stock Exchange
Speaker 8: before was regulated, because they could just take advantage of
Speaker 8: people like crazy. As I mentioned, the one way of
Speaker 8: acquiring the psychopathy or to a degree of sociopathy is
Speaker 8: to be born missing that ship. The other is a
Speaker 8: head injury coupled with abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, et cetera.
Speaker 8: In my book Headshot, there were two psychopaths. One was
Speaker 8: born that way, the other was made that way. In fact,
Speaker 8: I was reading it someone's talking about the show I
Speaker 8: was where we talked about that. It was criticizing us
Speaker 8: because we laughed about poor Andrew Webb whose mother ran
Speaker 8: over his head with the car and then realizing what
Speaker 8: she'd done, she backed up and ran over his head
Speaker 8: again and said we should have joked about that. But
Speaker 8: I mean that was his problem. He is in a
Speaker 8: home of multi generational incests, and he'd has more than
Speaker 8: one severe head injury. Now, I am not a psychopath,
Speaker 8: but I do have some of the characteristics WO would
Speaker 8: associate with sociopaths, and that I had a head injury,
Speaker 8: and I am incapable of seeing a connection between crime
Speaker 8: and punishment punishment, I don't understand the concept. You can
Speaker 8: talk to me and be reasonable to me about it,
Speaker 8: but I've yet to grasp what positive effect punishment has
Speaker 8: in rectifying a situation. I can see for the purposes
Speaker 8: of safety and protection of people, of separating the offender
Speaker 8: from society to protect people from their behavior, but I
Speaker 8: do not understand the punitive model of punishment at all.
Speaker 8: I don't see a relationship. I mean there must be one,
Speaker 8: otherwise it wouldn't exist in society. But I have been
Speaker 8: capable of comprehending it now that maybe because of the
Speaker 8: head injury. I don't know. That doesn't mean that I
Speaker 8: don't think that anything should be done with people who commit,
Speaker 8: you know, violent acts. But I look at it more
Speaker 8: from the same point of protecting people from their behavior
Speaker 8: and seeing what can be done to rehabilitate them. It's
Speaker 8: just like with the studies have shown that the more
Speaker 8: you punish someone for lying, the more they lie and
Speaker 8: the more marketing. Though.
Speaker 2: What you're exhibiting, though, is empathy, which is what probably
Speaker 2: the true sociopath has little of, because obviously you come
Speaker 2: to this conclusion they they can't empathize.
Speaker 8: They can mimic, they can cry on cue. They're very
Speaker 8: good at crying. Sure, they can mimic behaviors, but they
Speaker 8: don't experience them. Whether they're carving a turkey or carving
Speaker 8: a person doesn't seem to make much difference. It's interesting
Speaker 8: there is a website for sociopaths run by sociopaths and
Speaker 8: as the stay is that I don't do any of
Speaker 8: those bad things because if I do, my life will
Speaker 8: be miserable, and being is that my life is the
Speaker 8: only one I care about. I don't want to be miserable. Yeah,
Speaker 8: you know, they say that a third grade teacher can
Speaker 8: spot can spot these people a mile away when they're young,
Speaker 8: and if you can get to them when they're young,
Speaker 8: way prior to the age of fourteen, because about fourteen
Speaker 8: is when they start showing up in the legal system
Speaker 8: because they get in trouble. But if you can get
Speaker 8: them when they're really little and teach them that they
Speaker 8: can have perfectly fine, rewarding lives, and their lives will
Speaker 8: be more rewarding if they don't mistreat other people. Now,
Speaker 8: whether that means not cheating them in business, you know
Speaker 8: that their life will be happier, and that's the only
Speaker 8: life they care about is theirs if they don't do
Speaker 8: those things. So as a matter of finding a proper
Speaker 8: motivation for the appropriate behavior, well, I can agree with
Speaker 8: you there that at least this is a tangible attempt
Speaker 8: to address the problem, because, like I say, I think
Speaker 8: that the phenomena of kids killing their parents or someone
Speaker 8: you know in their family is incredible enough and unusual
Speaker 8: enough and in a super disturbing trend. But this story
Speaker 8: illustrates that there might be more to come in the
Speaker 8: near future. I mean in terms of if you can
Speaker 8: get ten kids to be involved in something like this,
Speaker 8: it's we've got to have some kind of intervention, especially
Speaker 8: when you have an authority figure such as the mother
Speaker 8: who is also very friendly facilitates their problems, always say,
Speaker 8: by giving them alcohol giving them drugs, hooks them in
Speaker 8: with these stories of righteous indignation. She's not telling them
Speaker 8: really that, hey, I want to get my hands on
Speaker 8: this forty thousand. She tells them, I'll get your car.
Speaker 8: You know what she say to Jeff, She says, keep
Speaker 8: your mouth shut when they go, when the cops come,
Speaker 8: he says, keep your mouth shut, and you can borrow
Speaker 8: the car anytime you want. Just say the word. I'll
Speaker 8: give you the keys, but keep your mouth shut. Meanwhile,
Speaker 8: she's planning to blame everything on him.
Speaker 2: Wow, now this story too, Burrow has has has got
Speaker 2: a lot of legs because this thing has been turned
Speaker 2: into a couple programs with your friend and again if
Speaker 2: I've mispronounced this, Darren, because they yeah, tell us about
Speaker 2: your appearances on Investigation Discovery. I saw you last year
Speaker 2: and it was it was great seeing the super serious
Speaker 2: Burrow Bear and they really utilized you in that program.
Speaker 2: It was a great program too. It really was a
Speaker 2: ver great documentary.
Speaker 8: Very fortunate with Investigation Discovery there's a lot of different shows.
Speaker 8: They are over done by different producers from different countries Summer, Canadian, summer,
Speaker 8: Australian summer, American. And I've done, Scorns, Snap Behind Mansion Walls,
Speaker 8: Deadly Women, Deadly Sins, Motives and murders. I really must compliment,
Speaker 8: especially motives and murders. Cracking the Case is the name
Speaker 8: of the show I was on that recently. The story
Speaker 8: about it I didn't do. I just did a mini
Speaker 8: book called a Murderer on nine to eleven about the
Speaker 8: murder of Robert Henry in Tacoma, Washington. They did just
Speaker 8: a beautiful job on that show, and Deadly Sins also
Speaker 8: does a great job. I just went on Deadly since
Speaker 8: last Saturday on a case that I haven't written a
Speaker 8: book about, and Iron there going to be on again
Speaker 8: February eighth with Frank Gerardo is another great journalist. We'll
Speaker 8: be talking about the Mainlean Williams homicide case down Aeron, California,
Speaker 8: which is another real shocker and interesting thing about Deadly Sins.
Speaker 8: Is Darren and I. He is on the board of
Speaker 8: directors of what's called Writers in Treatment. It's a non
Speaker 8: profit organization started by Leonard Bruschell and Robert Dunnyr that
Speaker 8: offers treatment and financial aid for treatment for people who write,
Speaker 8: who make a living writing or working in the writing
Speaker 8: and publishing industry who may have developed problems with alcohol,
Speaker 8: drugs or gambling or anything like that that have become
Speaker 8: a problem. And a lot of people who are writers
Speaker 8: don't have insurance this type of thing, and there's kind
Speaker 8: of the wherewall they get help, and so Writers and
Speaker 8: Treatment helps out. They also put almost called the Real
Speaker 8: Recovery Film Festival in a number of cities and every
Speaker 8: year they give the Experience, Strength and the Hope Awards,
Speaker 8: hosted by Ed Bigley Junior and Robert Dunney Junior. He
Speaker 8: had two juniors there last year giving toward the brand.
Speaker 8: And I'm on the advisory board, so he's not exactipescially,
Speaker 8: I'm on the advisory board. So we wound up meeting
Speaker 8: through Leonard and Darren's a guy got this idea of
Speaker 8: doing a book called Deadly Sins where we, you know,
Speaker 8: we do different stories about these seven deadly sins that
Speaker 8: you know. This is when Charlie Sheen was going through
Speaker 8: all of his stuff and we thought to be a
Speaker 8: cool book. Well wound up not being a book. We
Speaker 8: didn't follow through with that wound up being a TV
Speaker 8: series and with Darren hosting it and his people inviting
Speaker 8: me to participate in doing shows based on either books.
Speaker 8: I've written more cases that I have suggested to them,
Speaker 8: and they've been great to work with and I'm very
Speaker 8: proud to be associated with them and also interesting. He
Speaker 8: did an adaptation of Moms to Kill several years ago,
Speaker 8: and he still run on Deadly Women episode called Bloodlines,
Speaker 8: and then the on Deadly Sins. It was also done
Speaker 8: with the title Mommy's Little Killers, and both of them
Speaker 8: are available online to watch, and they both did very
Speaker 8: good adaptations of the story. I was very pleased.
Speaker 2: Oh that's great, Yeah, that's it's always great promotion when
Speaker 2: you've got so many people watching Investigation Discovery. And then
Speaker 2: you know, again, there's so many stories out there competing
Speaker 2: for people's attention, and well.
Speaker 8: Yeah, but it's nice, I think. On the other but
Speaker 8: the same token, there's only so many stories, you know,
Speaker 8: for adaptation. Well, rather, it wasn't planned this way, but
Speaker 8: Mommy's Little Killers was like the first episode I think
Speaker 8: of season two of Deadly Sins, and the same week,
Speaker 8: like a day before on a rerun on Investigation Discovery
Speaker 8: was Deadly Women episode Bloodlines was just the same story.
Speaker 8: It wasn't planned that way, It just happened that way
Speaker 8: that two different shows have the same crime, the same story,
Speaker 8: you know, the same week. That's what they're always follow stuff.
Speaker 2: Well, it's really nice because they get I guess the
Speaker 2: reader gets to see because you know, gets a rare
Speaker 2: to rarely get to see you live and do something
Speaker 2: like this, which is this great promo, adds another dimension
Speaker 2: to the book. And of course it can't do it
Speaker 2: can't harm anybody looking to find another book. That's fascinating
Speaker 2: to have that kind of promotion and that kind of
Speaker 2: high profile treatment of a story.
Speaker 8: What I like about investigation Discovery I think is maybe
Speaker 8: true with what's called the Climate Investigation, which is a
Speaker 8: very similar network that they have in the UK and
Speaker 8: maybe they have it in Canada, but all the same
Speaker 8: programming that these people do read and they spend more
Speaker 8: time watching the show than people do one other network.
Speaker 8: So they're into it. They're into it a little different.
Speaker 8: Fenthanstic great audience, which doesn't tend to be show we
Speaker 8: say book readers more literally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, I got here to
Speaker 2: beat up on Nancy Grace.
Speaker 8: I want to beat up on Nancy, But uh, I
Speaker 8: think it's a different, different crowd. Yeah, different crowd, and
Speaker 8: I really always pleased to be on an ID network
Speaker 8: and uh there and of course they have known him
Speaker 8: for a few years now, and he was a guest
Speaker 8: of my radio show last week.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting too that the the the foundation
Speaker 2: that he has because he's had some issues himself and
Speaker 2: so it's nice to see him put his time and
Speaker 2: effort into that. And that's if people want to go
Speaker 2: a lot at the interview, and we should put a
Speaker 2: little we should pull a plug in for your fine
Speaker 2: program as well. Burrow with True Crime Uncensored on Saturdays
Speaker 2: on Outlaw Radio. Give us a little bit more information
Speaker 2: about that.
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, that's Uh, we've got a nice little line
Speaker 8: up a programs on Outlaw Radio USA. So if you
Speaker 8: go to Outlaw Radio USA dot com, let's say about
Speaker 8: saying about Matt Allen and Devens of Decadence. Actually, so
Speaker 8: everything is broadcast live from the replica of an eighteen
Speaker 8: seventy six Virginia City style bar building Matt Allen's backyard
Speaker 8: in the Olds of California. And he's been doing his
Speaker 8: law radio show for several years, many many years, more
Speaker 8: than a decade. And then he approached me about doing
Speaker 8: a show, and so if we all do a true
Speaker 8: crime show, And I started out about five six years ago,
Speaker 8: first with Don Woldman as my co host, and now
Speaker 8: with Howard Lapedis we Jokeke. He's manager to the star.
Speaker 8: He manages doctor Drew Pinsky. Well, he also manages Darren
Speaker 8: Kevinoki and Burl Bear, among others. So still with him
Speaker 8: and our fact checker, Mark Boyer. And right before our
Speaker 8: show at one o'clock, LORII Doowney, we call Laurie Downey Junior,
Speaker 8: the widow of the great Morton Downey Junior, and Lynette
Speaker 8: Miller to a new show called Broad's Casting. Uh, there's
Speaker 8: too broad podcasting. Uh. Then our show True Crime on Sensor.
Speaker 8: Then Matt Allen and the Demons of Decadence including Howard,
Speaker 8: myself and Mark and all sorts of other fun and
Speaker 8: exciting people going to pass out.
Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, it's a great it's a great show, great guests,
Speaker 2: and it's a lot of fun too. It's uh yeah,
Speaker 2: people who knew true yeah, that well, that was kind
Speaker 2: of our approach, and some people kind of, you know,
Speaker 2: go geez, what are we getting into here. But with
Speaker 2: the exception of a couple really tragic ones where we
Speaker 2: had the you know, the mother of the murdered person
Speaker 2: on the show, where we've had to be a little more.
Speaker 8: I mean, the crimes, et cetera are are always horrifying,
Speaker 8: and maybe it's gallows humor, but we've tried to, you know,
Speaker 8: do the same thing. You do, get to the meat
Speaker 8: of the matter.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 8: I concentrate on the story and Howard concentrates on the
Speaker 8: personal life the author. Except for me, I've when Aaron
Speaker 8: Moriarity or Harry Droven or someone's on the show. It's
Speaker 8: well known that the first question I always ask is
Speaker 8: what are you wearing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great, it's a great program. So I wanted
Speaker 2: to mention too that I'm really happy to have Audible
Speaker 2: as a sponsor of True Murder. And like I said,
Speaker 2: this episode of True Murder was brought to you by Audible,
Speaker 2: world's leading name and digital audio books. Do you do
Speaker 2: you have any are there any Do you have any
Speaker 2: negotiations with any of your books to be released through
Speaker 2: Audible in the near future.
Speaker 8: Well, they could be if I would get off my
Speaker 8: literary posterior and I have the Audible the audio rights,
Speaker 8: and uh, it's just a matter of me taking the
Speaker 8: time to get, you know, kind of deal with the
Speaker 8: narrator and go through that process that you go through.
Speaker 8: It's very easy to do. It's just that I've been
Speaker 8: so busy. It's just one more thing I haven't done yet.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 8: But when I first heard about Audible to gee, it
Speaker 8: goes back about several years ago, but I'm not that
Speaker 8: many people had heard of it. And there was a
Speaker 8: guy knew that was doing like a fantasy or science
Speaker 8: fiction series and had him up on Audible and he
Speaker 8: was doing remarkably well. People were loving that stuff and
Speaker 8: I've never even heard of it before. I've heard of
Speaker 8: audio books before, but I hadn't heard of Audible until
Speaker 8: they turned me onto it. And I've been really impressed.
Speaker 8: And so I'm happy to hear that you've got them
Speaker 8: as a sponsor on your show.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks, Yeah that right now. Audible has a thirty
Speaker 2: day free trial where you can choose the book of
Speaker 2: your desire and download it and experience I mean, for
Speaker 2: people that don't know. The first audiobook that I listened
Speaker 2: to was Steven Singular BTK, and so it came in
Speaker 2: a big box.
Speaker 8: That great author you had Steven on your show, what
Speaker 8: a great guysident. Well, if you really want to have
Speaker 8: a conversation, asked about the O. J. Simpson case.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, that's the only the only one of
Speaker 2: the only programs I haven't covered yet, and I plan
Speaker 2: to do that because that's of course that captivated everyone's
Speaker 2: imagination everywhere that the image of him in the slow
Speaker 2: speed chase with in his bronco was indelible.
Speaker 8: I would think. I'll tell you, Steven, Stephen really was
Speaker 8: found himself in a lynchpin role in that trial because
Speaker 8: he received inside information from the LAPD on evidence being
Speaker 8: on why the blood samples are not being given to
Speaker 8: the defense. The defense thought it was the prosecution it
Speaker 8: was selling him, but it wasn't. It was the l
Speaker 8: A p D. Because they knew there was something wrong
Speaker 8: with the blood evidence. They didn't want the defense to
Speaker 8: know about it. Of course, that's when so Stephen winds
Speaker 8: up being part of the story, and journalists don't like
Speaker 8: to be part of the story. But there was no
Speaker 8: way that he could not be, you know, And and
Speaker 8: that's one major reason why the jury came back with
Speaker 8: the guilty verdict was that the blood of it this
Speaker 8: was all tainted with that preservative. It was the blood
Speaker 8: that O Jay gave when he got back from Chicago,
Speaker 8: not blood for the night of the crime, which put
Speaker 8: a whole new dimension on things.
Speaker 2: So yeah, contacts Stephen too. He probably has He probably
Speaker 2: has the bt K book out on audiobooks, so that
Speaker 2: might be interesting case to revisit around it.
Speaker 8: Doing that, I should not know what I should narrate
Speaker 8: on myself, Whether I should have it, I think so.
Speaker 2: No, you got a great voice, Burl, you should. You
Speaker 2: should marry I think I think it would be add
Speaker 2: another dimension to it, that where you actually talk about
Speaker 2: intimate because there is so much of your character in
Speaker 2: these books. A lot of a lot of people don't
Speaker 2: uh interject themselves, inject themselves into the story, and you do.
Speaker 8: You've always the one where I really do. And maybe
Speaker 8: I'll come back on your show if you want in
Speaker 8: a few months to talk about I have a book
Speaker 8: coming out very soon called Man Overboard, The Counterfeit Resurrection
Speaker 8: of Phil Champagne. It's the twentieth anniversary edition. It was
Speaker 8: the first true crime book I ever did, and it
Speaker 8: is one where I interject more than you have ever
Speaker 8: heard an author doing a true crime book before it's
Speaker 8: actually a funny true crime book, and whether it is
Speaker 8: true or a pack of lies is for the audience
Speaker 8: to decide. But twenty years ago it was nominated for
Speaker 8: Best True Crime Book of the Year the World District Convention,
Speaker 8: didn't win, but was nominated. And the twentieth anniversary edition
Speaker 8: updated with new information. And it'll be coming out in
Speaker 8: paperback and in electronic and probably an audible as well,
Speaker 8: And that's coming out soon. That's one where there are
Speaker 8: some sort of some some rules to true crime that
Speaker 8: are real common between the books with them, whether it's Soon,
Speaker 8: Kensington or Berkeley or whatever. But that particular book violates
Speaker 8: all the rules.
Speaker 2: Well I gotta I gotta read it then for sure,
Speaker 2: if it broke all the rules, I know all about that. Also,
Speaker 2: Jack jack Olsen, who was the America's Dean of True Crime,
Speaker 2: he loved it. He tracked me down just to tell me,
Speaker 2: how about you loved the book, which really meant a
Speaker 2: lot to me.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 8: He was forkind of a mentor to me and a
Speaker 8: big helped him by us. Has got out a true
Speaker 8: crime while you can? You know?
Speaker 2: Jack Olson? Jack Olson was the in my estimation the
Speaker 2: best true crime author, not that you know, there are
Speaker 2: there's great authors like yourself, but there's great authors, but
Speaker 2: Jack Olson still selection and he just was the master.
Speaker 2: I mean everything he wrote was just you. You were involved.
Speaker 8: I'll tell you immediately, Old Jack, when I read the
Speaker 8: opening page of his book Salt of the Earth, I
Speaker 8: wanted to just take my word processor and throw in
Speaker 8: the I told him, if I could ever write half
Speaker 8: as well as you do in that opening page of
Speaker 8: Soul of the Earth, I'd be a happy man. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 8: don't worry, kid, you'll get there. Just keep pounting the line.
Speaker 8: But he was brilliant, brilliant author, brilliant author.
Speaker 2: Well he influenced me with his last book, and I
Speaker 2: didn't know it was going to be his last, but
Speaker 2: it really it was his last book. And that was
Speaker 2: I Creation of a serial Killer, which is the the
Speaker 2: Jessperson Keith Hunter Jessperson story and in Your Neck of
Speaker 2: the Woods. So yeah, that was that was an eye opener.
Speaker 8: This is the last true crime book I'm ever going
Speaker 8: to write, because I promise I've never going to write
Speaker 8: another one. Well, unfortunately he was right, because he passed away.
Speaker 2: Well you know, he was I think he almost you know,
Speaker 2: redefined the genre or he tried to do with that
Speaker 2: book in terms of uh, really letting the killer, because
Speaker 2: he really had this very unusual killer jesperson where he
Speaker 2: really wanted to talk and was quite articulate, and he
Speaker 2: certainly wasn't shy about his motives or he was very forthcoming,
Speaker 2: which is not always the norm.
Speaker 8: Well, you're your guy, your guy, should call it your guy,
Speaker 8: but you're the fellow who got hold you to do
Speaker 8: trophy kill. I mean this guy, he certainly was very
Speaker 8: cooperative and telling you all of his distorted, sick, perverse
Speaker 8: reasons for doing what he did.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he's very similar to.
Speaker 8: I can't see him. Yeah, he's very similar in this guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's he's among the very few that really want
Speaker 2: to talk that much. You know, the Dennis Nielsen's and
Speaker 2: the Jasperson's. There's a few. There are a few of them,
Speaker 2: and I would speculate that there's going to be a
Speaker 2: lot more. When you start having television programs where they're
Speaker 2: there have a serial killer on the phone line. It
Speaker 2: seems to be an indication that these guys all want
Speaker 2: to be famous, all want their little a moment in the.
Speaker 8: Sales of the Belgian court too. For the most part,
Speaker 8: their egos are so huge he can't fit them and
Speaker 8: the maturia to the court room at the same time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, that where I'm looking forward to
Speaker 2: the Luca Magnotic case, which will be probably in about
Speaker 2: a year from Montreal, where he sent the body parts
Speaker 2: to the police and to an elementary school of his victim,
Speaker 2: and then also had posted the killing and the murder
Speaker 2: of and supposed necrophilia of the victim as well online
Speaker 2: and then then it's escaped to Germany, Berlin and then Paris.
Speaker 8: So you know, well I just got out. But you
Speaker 8: and I were on your show several months ago talking
Speaker 8: about my book Body Account about the Folkane serial killer
Speaker 8: Robert Lee Yates. I just could have formed this going
Speaker 8: to be a sixth part documentary, done great on that,
Speaker 8: And they got hold of me and asked if I
Speaker 8: would participate, and I said, just get out of your
Speaker 8: check book.
Speaker 2: But and what where's that going to be on?
Speaker 8: What what would be different investigation discoveries being done by
Speaker 8: a production company called story House, and uh, they were
Speaker 8: trying to decide between that and the Hillside Strangler case.
Speaker 8: And they decided to do it on Robert Lee Yates.
Speaker 8: Oh good choice, I think, so we'll see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you've written a great book about it, and
Speaker 2: and you're you're you know, accessible Hillside Strangler. I think
Speaker 2: the I think that it might be hard to get
Speaker 2: a hold of the authors of that, or maybe it's
Speaker 2: not so familiar in people's minds anymore. Of the Hillside
Speaker 2: that's a long time ago.
Speaker 8: Yes, it's always difficult to find some of the witnesses
Speaker 8: of some of the people you talk to on any
Speaker 8: case after a number of years, because they tend to
Speaker 8: either evaporate or many of them pass away, you know,
Speaker 8: And it's being satifficult. But at least with the Robert
Speaker 8: Lee Yate's case, people still around, families of the victims
Speaker 8: and brothers and sisters and people who knew him. I
Speaker 8: knew the victim of as I did.
Speaker 2: So. Yeah.
Speaker 8: Well, even in Fatal Beauty, of the book about Ronda Glover,
Speaker 8: she participated, as you're mentioning Jack Oldsen's book, I let
Speaker 8: her comment on everything she wanted to comment on and
Speaker 8: put it in the book. Some people didn't care for
Speaker 8: that one. You talk about people who liked by putting
Speaker 8: things into context. There's probably a people with a greater
Speaker 8: number of PEO people who don't. But you know, for
Speaker 8: an author, you have to. You know, my editor told
Speaker 8: me Mike Keilla Hamilton, the candidates that don't read the
Speaker 8: reviews on Amazon because people will go after you on
Speaker 8: all the better things. If it gets to you, it
Speaker 8: will affect your writing. She was right. It did you
Speaker 8: get to me, and it did affect my writing. But
Speaker 8: I was doing beauty and she finds it. Hey, you've
Speaker 8: written books before. Just write the book, you know, don't
Speaker 8: pity attention to it.
Speaker 2: It's hard to comprehend how people would would write such
Speaker 2: a scathing personal review, and I think that's the thing
Speaker 2: that no one is really used to. And then it's like, uh,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know if this is the
Speaker 2: word troll, but it's somebody that goes out of their
Speaker 2: way to be nasty on online because they are anonymous.
Speaker 2: I mean not to say that there aren't valid bad
Speaker 2: reviews of my book or anyone's book, but I don't find.
Speaker 8: A book that one gives a bad route, gives it
Speaker 8: a negative review because they didn't like the narrative style
Speaker 8: I use. It was published Weekly said that were they
Speaker 8: rightly recognized what I was doing stylistically, which was doing
Speaker 8: that particular book as if it were a television documentary
Speaker 8: except written and not visual, And that was I purposely
Speaker 8: chose that style. It was an experiment, and they said, yeah,
Speaker 8: that's what he did. But the problem is is that's
Speaker 8: what it feels like. Well I wanted to feel like that,
Speaker 8: but they didn't that. That's what I call it vallet criticism.
Speaker 8: But to give a book one star because the crime
Speaker 8: is so horrifying, what's have to do with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I say, some people are new to true crime,
Speaker 2: and I think it's it shocks them to comprehend what
Speaker 2: it's all about. So because he typically that.
Speaker 8: The book would have been better been written from the
Speaker 8: perspective of the killer, Well, in a non fiction book,
Speaker 8: you cannot write a book that has interior dialogue, like
Speaker 8: you can't on a novel what people are thinking because
Speaker 8: it's a true story and you're not in their head.
Speaker 8: You don't know what they were thinking, so you can't say. Now,
Speaker 8: that was what was problematic with Truman. Capodi's In Cold
Speaker 8: Blood brilliant book, but he made it it was like
Speaker 8: a doctor drama he novelized it, and he has interior dialogue,
Speaker 8: which in journalistic true crime is a no. No, you know,
Speaker 8: it's a different art form, and tell you it's a
Speaker 8: different form entirely. There's no way I can say it.
Speaker 8: Then Dan was thinking such and such. Well, I don't
Speaker 8: know what Dan's thinking. You know, in a fiction novel,
Speaker 8: I could do that, but not as a journalist.
Speaker 2: Well Olson Jack Olsen pointed out some things that he
Speaker 2: was quite critical of Capodi in Cold Blood because everyone
Speaker 2: that hadn't read it, and I still talk to people
Speaker 2: who haven't read it talk about how revolutionary it was
Speaker 2: and what incredible true crime book was. And I said, yeah,
Speaker 2: but listen to this. His editor or a part of me,
Speaker 2: the publisher paid an incredible amount of money to be
Speaker 2: able to hire to be able to stall the foregone
Speaker 2: conclusion of the trial itself, So a lot of money
Speaker 2: was spent him to have access. Then he betrayed that killer,
Speaker 2: and then after and took no notes and then created
Speaker 2: dialogue and made composite characters, so that book wouldn't get
Speaker 2: published today. No, I can't see it published.
Speaker 8: But the books like say Sleepers by Lorenzo Katerra, great
Speaker 8: book excellent movie with Robert de Niro and Dustin Hoffit
Speaker 8: and Kevin Bacon and originally came out as a true
Speaker 8: crime book and it's not true. It's not true at all,
Speaker 8: but it's a very entertaining book and a very entertaining movie.
Speaker 8: So Jack and Garry C. King and have six seven
Speaker 8: other true crime authors all got together and petitioned the
Speaker 8: publisher please not being against the Reds. We like him
Speaker 8: and glad he's making money, but please don't call this
Speaker 8: a true story. Please don't call the true crime book
Speaker 8: because it's not. It's not a true story. And so
Speaker 8: when the movie came out, it is based on the
Speaker 8: controversial novel by the Reds rather than say a shocking
Speaker 8: true story, because they know it's a great book, but
Speaker 8: it's just not a true story. Yeah. Well that's fired
Speaker 8: by events that might have happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, well, Burl, I got to get back to
Speaker 2: a little bit of this Audible just for our audience,
Speaker 2: please do. I wanted to tell people that Audible has
Speaker 2: a thirty day free trial and again where you can
Speaker 2: choose the book of your desire and really experience Audible's
Speaker 2: digital audiobooks. I guess you know this. They have over
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty thousand titles and that's a growing list.
Speaker 2: And as you know, they have the very best narrators
Speaker 2: and also.
Speaker 8: Are is a og the actor had author and director
Speaker 8: Ian Ogilvie, who played Simon Templar in Return of the
Speaker 8: Saint and has even been a co host of Miny
Speaker 8: a couple of times on True Crime on Sensored. Uh
Speaker 8: does many of the James Bond books and does a
Speaker 8: great job. Yeah, in the in the Bond with Ogilvy
Speaker 8: books from Audible.
Speaker 2: And you you were commissioned to do from the Estate
Speaker 2: of the Saint as well to write new books. Where
Speaker 2: are you in that project right now?
Speaker 8: Well as the first one, Captured the Saying, came out
Speaker 8: several years ago to I can't say universally good reviews,
Speaker 8: but majority of good reviews. And uh uh the second one,
Speaker 8: which I had held off writing it because we sort
Speaker 8: of had a TV series forthcoming, so I kept stopping
Speaker 8: because I wanted to be sure you because it was
Speaker 8: consistent with the TV show, and there was a new
Speaker 8: pilot done with Adam Rayner doing a great job playing
Speaker 8: the Saint. And then there's some some problems there with
Speaker 8: the mister Rayner not being able to stay with the role.
Speaker 8: But I've got a second novel with various titles, he
Speaker 8: called Return of the Saints, say in the twenty first
Speaker 8: century whatever. That's just about almost half done. I keep
Speaker 8: putting it on the shelf and taking it off. Meanwhile,
Speaker 8: Ian Dickerson is about halfway into also writing original Saint novels.
Speaker 8: I think Saint fans will get a double Wayamie sometime
Speaker 8: in twenty fourteen if we both finish our novels and
Speaker 8: they both come out.
Speaker 2: So Wow, that'd be exciting to have that on Audible,
Speaker 2: wouldn't it.
Speaker 8: Yeah? Oh yeah. There are some of the other same
Speaker 8: books on Audible, I believe, but I think those will
Speaker 8: be also, so Saint fans are willing to look forward.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be great. You're a busy guy.
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know what I've I didn't know you're working on.
Speaker 8: Pardon me if you got another gruesome case you're working on.
Speaker 2: Well, they're always gruesome. I mean it's Canada, after all,
Speaker 2: and you know somebody's got somebody's got to put a
Speaker 2: spotlight on these. I think that the Luca Magnott of
Speaker 2: the case is what I want to work on because
Speaker 2: it I think it has some international legs. There was
Speaker 2: a case here in Winnipeg. I would have written a book,
Speaker 2: but I would have betrayed a confidence in someone that
Speaker 2: I'm working on another project, and it but involves I
Speaker 2: just can't even believe the police response, the courts, just
Speaker 2: when I think I know the depth of it's not
Speaker 2: even leniency, just the well, not corruption, no, no, it's
Speaker 2: just it's a just a different mindset, just the the
Speaker 2: sorry state of our our legal affairs. And in Canada,
Speaker 2: the judicial system is just jammed. They're like they're handcuffed,
Speaker 2: they can't deal with anything. But the lawyer for the
Speaker 2: serial killer named Sean Cameron Lamb said to his client,
Speaker 2: You're going to be the first serial killer released in
Speaker 2: North America.
Speaker 8: Oh really, so yeah, So this.
Speaker 2: Is a guy that oh, it's a it's a. It's
Speaker 2: a it's I'm going to be doing the story, probably
Speaker 2: on the program, just because it's just all bottled up
Speaker 2: in my head. And I had done a fair amount
Speaker 2: of research and with a partner, we had contacted Sean
Speaker 2: Cameron Lamb, and then the trial happened lickety split. And
Speaker 2: but it's a real case of again. You know, women
Speaker 2: categorized as prostitutes, but I I just categorized them as victims.
Speaker 2: Happen to be on the street where the serial killer
Speaker 2: is trolling. And you won't believe the dynamics.
Speaker 8: Why they picked them, because they are viewed as disposable
Speaker 8: human beings as long as they're killing them, that are
Speaker 8: not killing real people. Well guess what, they are real people,
Speaker 8: just as real as you are anybody else. They got kids,
Speaker 8: they got family that loves them, they got the you know,
Speaker 8: the whole, the whole. They're real human beings. And uh,
Speaker 8: it's just tragic. I mean, this is something that really
Speaker 8: I get on my soapbox about. And you had, oh
Speaker 8: you know the woman wrote on the farm about the
Speaker 8: pig farmer guy Cevie Cameron.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah Camera.
Speaker 8: Now that's they couldn't even get that book out for
Speaker 8: like eight years because of your laws in Canaday. You
Speaker 8: can't talk about a case it hasn't resultd yet or
Speaker 8: it can't write about it. Uh, that book to come out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know, Canadians didn't learn a single
Speaker 2: thing from the most expensive trial in Canadian history and
Speaker 2: then the subsequent most expensive inquiry into what went wrong, well,
Speaker 2: no one noticed and it really didn't mount to anything,
Speaker 2: but they spent a boatload of money for a millionaire
Speaker 2: serial killer. So incredible, incredible story that not enough people
Speaker 2: really Again, it.
Speaker 8: Had elements so tragic that the police knew what was
Speaker 8: going on, even knew who was doing it, but look
Speaker 8: the other way because they didn't have the budget, they
Speaker 8: didn't have the training, and besides, who cares.
Speaker 2: Well, there's a little more, a little more to that,
Speaker 2: but it's it's it's when you see some of these stories,
Speaker 2: especially in Canada, that no one really examines. For what
Speaker 2: you can really learn from them is that there is
Speaker 2: i have to say, police ineptitude. Then there is this
Speaker 2: the chicanery basically that can go on in the trial
Speaker 2: from someone's perspective, and and maybe it's a defense or
Speaker 2: again the sort of handicap natural Canadian handicapped of the
Speaker 2: prosecutors and you kind of just throw your hands up
Speaker 2: in the air and you can't believe eve that we
Speaker 2: can't bear you know, we couldn't even get a conviction
Speaker 2: for more than six murders second degree. Yet there was
Speaker 2: remains of upwards of thirty people at that farm and
Speaker 2: only six people, six families had the I guess, the
Speaker 2: right to have their trial heard in the court of
Speaker 2: Luck Canada. Canadian judicial system couldn't process those thirty trials,
Speaker 2: so the other people did not get their semblance of
Speaker 2: justice at trial. And again that's not a story, so
Speaker 2: it's not something you would see in America. At least
Speaker 2: they do at least some lip service to the victims'
Speaker 2: families and include them somewhat in the decision and.
Speaker 8: Maritter what they had to do with the serial killer cases,
Speaker 8: the one that has the most amount of evidence is
Speaker 8: the one they don't use because that way, if they
Speaker 8: the other ones failed, they've got that one for backup.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but this was when you have all of it
Speaker 2: was to me, I think if a prosecutor looked at
Speaker 2: it in America, they would they would not have the
Speaker 2: same outcome in terms of that inability to be able
Speaker 2: to try more than six cases. And certainly, I think
Speaker 2: anybody were to look at this in the precursory way,
Speaker 2: they would realize that in America, you certainly, I think
Speaker 2: you'd get a first degree murder conviction after you had
Speaker 2: twenty six bodies on your property property.
Speaker 8: I mean, it depends on how many they charge you with. Robertlee,
Speaker 8: I can't remember how many they charged you with. It
Speaker 8: didn't charge them with all eighteen or whatever. Of course
Speaker 8: he confess it, cut a deal, and then they were
Speaker 8: nigged on the deal, which is kind of unfortunate. So
Speaker 8: that's what they did. Have a trial second come around
Speaker 8: for the US in Pierce County and everything regardless, Cancaty
Speaker 8: ones with seals, So there was nothing there because you know,
Speaker 8: he cut a deal. But you know, if you you
Speaker 8: have to put the jury of it into basically trying
Speaker 8: six different homicide cases, six different defenses, you know, I
Speaker 8: mean that's really extreme. If you get enough to if
Speaker 8: you're pretty sure this guy did it and you know
Speaker 8: you won't confess, well, then you pick the best ones
Speaker 8: you have or the second best ones you have, maybe
Speaker 8: two or three of them, and go for it to
Speaker 8: get him convicted. Well, then you have a situation like
Speaker 8: Willis Wilson. I don't think you've had on, but he
Speaker 8: was charged with kidnapping a woman, holding her at knife
Speaker 8: point and force you to perform various sexual acts, and
Speaker 8: they wanted to connect him to six homicides, exact same
Speaker 8: motus operatics is also killing kids, et cetera. We'll turn
Speaker 8: out they had the wrong guy. But they browbeat this
Speaker 8: guy to try to get him to confess, to cut
Speaker 8: a plea bargain deal that he wouldn't get the death penalty,
Speaker 8: and the whole time he can say, but it's not me,
Speaker 8: it's not me, and the eyewitnessed the woman said, oh,
Speaker 8: that's him. She picked him out of the lineup. Well,
Speaker 8: that wasn't too difficult. He was the only guy in
Speaker 8: the lineup who looked like the description. But he wasn't
Speaker 8: the guy. He wasn't the killer, He wasn't even the
Speaker 8: guy who kidnapped her at all. Fortunately, the jury came
Speaker 8: back with not guilty, and the judge looked at and said, son,
Speaker 8: you've been through a hell of a lot. I've taken
Speaker 8: you out for ice cream. And then the ironic thing
Speaker 8: is that Willis actually was sitting at a bar and
Speaker 8: in comes the real guy sits down next to him
Speaker 8: one each. Of course, the real guy doesn't know who
Speaker 8: Willis is, and Wilson's looking this guy over and he
Speaker 8: fits the description perfectly right under the rand his shoes
Speaker 8: and found out for the guy where was going actually
Speaker 8: called the cops is the real guy, and he didn't
Speaker 8: want to hear about it. To go away. We don't
Speaker 8: even talk to you. Go away. They're mad at him,
Speaker 8: but he wasn't guilted. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, when they've made up their minds and the prosecutors
Speaker 2: have done the work, it's it's hard for them to
Speaker 2: admit mistakes, and that ego is disturbing. I think's where
Speaker 2: it's nice to see.
Speaker 8: Get getting out of prison after serving twenty years for
Speaker 8: murder that they didn't commit. You know, the post traumatic
Speaker 8: stress syndrome of being convicted of something you didn't do
Speaker 8: is batter not being accused of something you didn't do,
Speaker 8: but to be convicted.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't understand how with all the checks
Speaker 2: and balances and on all the points he had incredible
Speaker 2: system can can can rupt it?
Speaker 8: Or like I have seen this is tragic but true.
Speaker 8: I have seen had a blank piece of paper to
Speaker 8: someone say just sign your name to this, we'll fill
Speaker 8: in the rest. I have seen signed confessions where the
Speaker 8: name is misspelled and the handwriting is wrong. You know,
Speaker 8: people are very naive when they I don't know what
Speaker 8: it's like in Canada, but you've got wonderful dedicated homicide detectives.
Speaker 8: He has a wonderful, dedicated police and then you have
Speaker 8: just the opposite, and it's harder than hell to get
Speaker 8: the crooked, corrupt ones out once they're in. And I
Speaker 8: had a guy of the fellow who I called America's
Speaker 8: favorite corrupt cop, wrote the book Chili Pippin in Atlantic City.
Speaker 8: I don't know if you've read that book or talked
Speaker 8: to that author, but he was the most corrupt cop
Speaker 8: in the history of the New York Police Department. Never
Speaker 8: got arrested, never got punished. He wrote a book about it.
Speaker 8: But how that was his goal. His goal in light
Speaker 8: was to be a corrupt cop in New York and
Speaker 8: he achieved his goal. And he is brutally honest on
Speaker 8: all the levels of corruption and all the different internal
Speaker 8: gangs of police that specialize in this type of corruption,
Speaker 8: that type of corruption, framing people of planning evidence. You
Speaker 8: know why they do it, and you know what they
Speaker 8: get out. It was very fascinating. It was also very upsetting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if I've heard the program. I've
Speaker 2: seen it up on your on your list. It was
Speaker 2: a little it was a while ago, maybe a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago. I remember the reading the description of
Speaker 2: the story. Yeah, well, Burl, we're going to have to
Speaker 2: have you back on with Men Overboard. Hopefully.
Speaker 8: It's always being the criminal. Phil Champagne by Buddy GM
Speaker 8: for the Mis' is a big kick out of this.
Speaker 8: It's the only true crime book signing he's aware of
Speaker 8: where the true crime author took the criminal with him
Speaker 8: to the book signings. You can get your by the
Speaker 8: author and by the criminal.
Speaker 2: Nice bonus.
Speaker 8: Yeah. Nice. So you get to meet the criminal, yeah,
Speaker 8: because he was out of prison by the said and
Speaker 8: the book came out, so he went on a book tour.
Speaker 8: They could have him on the show too at the
Speaker 8: same time.
Speaker 2: Just don't give him your number, yeah, any personal information
Speaker 2: to the guy. Yeah yeah, Now I wanted to say too.
Speaker 2: We were talking about Audible and I got to do
Speaker 2: this one more time here because I want people to
Speaker 2: visit Audible right now because of this thirty day free trial,
Speaker 2: and when they do visit Audible, visit audible dot com
Speaker 2: slash true Murder tell him Dan sent you, and this
Speaker 2: is to sign up today for a thirty day free trial.
Speaker 2: And I'm happy to have Audible here as the sponsor
Speaker 2: of the program And I also wanted to say that
Speaker 2: I didn't know this, but they are the biggest producer
Speaker 2: of spoken audio entertainment informational and educational programming on the Internet.
Speaker 2: They do audio versions of magazines and newspapers, television programs,
Speaker 2: and radio programs, so they're very deep. They're an Amazon
Speaker 2: company and Audible as again, I remember seeing audio books
Speaker 2: at about one hundred and fifty dollars for a box set,
Speaker 2: and you know with postage when you start sending six
Speaker 2: or eight CDs in the mail in a plastic box
Speaker 2: with shipping, Canada is much worse than the US in
Speaker 2: terms of shipping rates. So it's nice to see. It's
Speaker 2: nice to see the book come over the internet when
Speaker 2: that spur of the moment comes to you, Hey, I'd
Speaker 2: like to get Burrow Bear's book or any of the
Speaker 2: great authors around True Murder one of their books. And
Speaker 2: Audible has a great narrator, and I think people that, again,
Speaker 2: an e book is reading a book, and again, of
Speaker 2: course there's nothing like reading a book, but there is
Speaker 2: nothing like listening to someone read a book to you
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 8: And there's a lot of.
Speaker 2: People, a lot of fans that access on iPhones and
Speaker 2: try to maximize their entertainment time. And I think this
Speaker 2: is just another dimension for the diehard true crime fan
Speaker 2: now to be able to when they don't have the
Speaker 2: time to listen to somebody read Burl Bear's book to
Speaker 2: you and maximize your entertainment. It'd be nice.
Speaker 8: How we're doing dinner? I can spell my dinner cooking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it must be burning by now.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now we're going to wrap up now, I guess, Burl,
Speaker 2: And thank you very much for coming on and talking
Speaker 2: about Mom said kill. It's always a pleasure to have
Speaker 2: you on the program.
Speaker 8: It's available in every known e book format. Uh, get
Speaker 8: it from Amazon of course, and the Kindle and also
Speaker 8: in all the other formats. You might be able to
Speaker 8: find it in paperback, but it might be us and
Speaker 8: I prefer you got a new Yeah, absolutely, check with Amazon,
Speaker 8: yeah CA in Canada and see if they got the
Speaker 8: paperback or it's available as an ebook in your favorite format.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then for those listening to the program too,
Speaker 2: you have about six other true crime books and more
Speaker 2: on the way, I believe, and so stay tuned for
Speaker 2: more fascinating stories from Burrough Bear. With his books. You've
Speaker 2: been doing this for maybe twenty years now, haven't you broke?
Speaker 8: Oh? Yeah, the first true crime book was two thousand.
Speaker 8: Well actually before that, Matt Overboard has in nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 8: but then two thousand with Murder in the Family for Kensington,
Speaker 8: And how long I've been with Kensington now is fourteen
Speaker 8: years now. Well, anyway, that's great for having me on.
Speaker 8: I always appreciated Danny do a great show where we
Speaker 8: talk about you on my show, so.
Speaker 2: I know fares up.
Speaker 8: We just say go listen to the Dan show. They
Speaker 8: showed up for your show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we both had that sort of our guest. So
Speaker 2: we were looking around, where where is that guest? We
Speaker 2: haven't heard from him, so sometimes that makes for a
Speaker 2: great program. When the guy didn't show up, I had
Speaker 2: a great time listening to you guys kept saying, no,
Speaker 2: he's the least still not here, but
Speaker 8: Yeah, great, have a great night, Dad, Thank you, thank you,
Speaker 8: good night, bye bye.