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<v Speaker 1>All right, buckle up everyone. We're diving deep today into

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<v Speaker 1>the world of the clean coder by Uncle Bob. And

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<v Speaker 1>before you think, ugh, another coding book, trust me, this

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<v Speaker 1>is less about the how of coding, more about the who,

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of developer you are, the professional and you

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<v Speaker 1>want to be.

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<v Speaker 2>It's almost like a philosophy, right, like, what are the

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<v Speaker 2>guiding principles that separate a good programmer from a truly

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<v Speaker 2>great one?

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly? And he doesn't mess around. He dives right in

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<v Speaker 1>with this story about him and a colleague, Joe. They

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<v Speaker 1>were like the a team of bug fixing, pulling all nighters, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>to get things shipped on time for the engineering team.

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<v Speaker 1>But when it came to legal team is a different story.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh I remember that part, Joe. Evin says something like,

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<v Speaker 2>but these are professionals. It's like this unspoken thing, right,

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<v Speaker 2>the programmers aren't held to the same standards as say,

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<v Speaker 2>lawyers or doctors.

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<v Speaker 1>Uncle Bob's like, hold up, that's got to change. He says,

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<v Speaker 1>the foundation of any true professional is do no.

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<v Speaker 2>Harm, which, when you think about software, has so many layers. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't want buggy code out in the wild, but

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<v Speaker 2>it goes deeper, right, Like what about the harm we

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<v Speaker 2>do to the software itself by making it a nightmare

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<v Speaker 2>to maintain?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh man, I've inherited some code bases that felt like

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<v Speaker 1>a personal attack, like trying to untangle a headphone cord

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<v Speaker 1>after it's been in your.

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<v Speaker 2>Pocket all day, exactly, and then someone else has to

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<v Speaker 2>come along and deal with that mess. So how do

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<v Speaker 2>we avoid becoming that developer? Michael Bob's got some thoughts.

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<v Speaker 1>He's big on the work ethic, but it's not just

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<v Speaker 1>showing up and coding. He's talking about constant learning, like

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<v Speaker 1>twenty hours a week outside your job.

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<v Speaker 2>I know, right, sounds intense, but think about it, even

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<v Speaker 2>just reading during lunch, podcasts on your commute.

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<v Speaker 1>It adds up. Plus tech moves so fast. If you're

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<v Speaker 1>not learning, you're falling.

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<v Speaker 2>Behind, exactly. And it's not just keeping up, it's about

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<v Speaker 2>becoming the expert, the one people turn to, the one

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<v Speaker 2>who's always pushing the boundaries.

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<v Speaker 1>So true, And speaking of pushing boundaries, he talks about

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<v Speaker 1>the importance of practice, not just working on projects, but

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<v Speaker 1>like deliberate practice. He calls them kata, these short coding

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<v Speaker 1>exercises kind of like a musician practicing scales.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, I love kata.

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<v Speaker 2>It's such a great way to sharpen your skills, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>not even solving real problems, just focusing on technique efficiency.

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<v Speaker 1>I gotta try that. But even with all the solo

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<v Speaker 1>practice in the world, Uncle Bob's a huge believer in collaboration.

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<v Speaker 3>Which makes sense, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Software is rarely a one person show anymore, bouncing ideas

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<v Speaker 2>off each other, pair programming, mentoring.

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<v Speaker 1>Like, you learn so much faster when you're not in

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<v Speaker 1>a vacuum.

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<v Speaker 2>And you avoid those situations where only one person understands

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<v Speaker 2>that critical piece of code.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so we've got learning, we've got collaboration, but now

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<v Speaker 1>comes apart. I struggle with saying no.

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<v Speaker 2>Ooh yeah, that's a tough one.

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<v Speaker 1>Especially when you want to be helpful, you want to

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<v Speaker 1>please people. But Uncle Bob makes this point saying yes

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<v Speaker 1>when you don't mean it, it actually hurts everyone in

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<v Speaker 1>the long run.

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<v Speaker 2>He talks about that language of non commitment right, like

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<v Speaker 2>we should or I hope to. It's so easy to

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<v Speaker 2>fall into that track.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh totally, I'm so guilty of that. But he gives

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<v Speaker 1>this great alternative, I will action by time. It forces

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<v Speaker 1>you to be specific, accountable.

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<v Speaker 2>And it sets clear expectations, so no one's left wondering.

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<v Speaker 2>But what about when you have to say no, like

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<v Speaker 2>the request is unreasonable.

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<v Speaker 1>He's got a framework for that too, about focusing on

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<v Speaker 1>the why, not just no, but no because, and offering

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<v Speaker 1>alternatives if you can.

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<v Speaker 2>It shows you're not just being difficult, you're problem solving.

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<v Speaker 2>You're using your expertise to guide things in the right direction.

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<v Speaker 1>I had this situation once I was asked to build

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<v Speaker 1>this feature, and I knew it was going to be

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<v Speaker 1>a nightmare, way too complex. But instead of just saying no,

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<v Speaker 1>I explained the technical challenges, like even I proposed a

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<v Speaker 1>phased approach, something more realistic, and how'd that go? They

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<v Speaker 1>were actually super receptive. They appreciated the honesty, the transparency.

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<v Speaker 1>It turned into a much better solution than the end.

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<v Speaker 3>That's professionalism and action.

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<v Speaker 1>And speaking of challenges, we got to talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>pressure cooker of software development. Uncle Bob tells this crazy

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<v Speaker 1>story about an app called Guerrilla Mart.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh. Yeah, that one stays with you. It's like a

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<v Speaker 2>cautionary tale.

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<v Speaker 1>Impossible deadlines, scope creep, that is velper John is sacrificing everything.

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<v Speaker 2>And it all comes back to that ability to say

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<v Speaker 2>no effectively.

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<v Speaker 1>Right if John hit set boundaries, managed expectations.

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<v Speaker 2>But even when you do everything right, pressure happens. So

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<v Speaker 2>what are Uncle Bob's tips for weathering those storms.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, one that surprised me was keep things clean, not

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<v Speaker 1>just code, but your workspace, your mental state.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like, when everything else is chaotic, create some order

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<v Speaker 2>where you can.

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<v Speaker 1>It helps you think clearly, make better decisions under stress.

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<v Speaker 2>And he talks about having a crisis discipline, a set

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<v Speaker 2>of practices you can rely on when everything's hitting the fan.

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<v Speaker 2>What are your go tos?

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<v Speaker 1>For me, It's got to be stepping back, breathing deeply,

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<v Speaker 1>reminding myself I've solved tough problems before, and breaking things

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<v Speaker 1>down into smaller, manageable chunks.

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<v Speaker 3>That's great.

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<v Speaker 2>Uncle Bob also emphasizes sticking to your disciplines, test driven development,

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<v Speaker 2>pair programming, whatever.

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<v Speaker 3>Works for you.

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<v Speaker 2>Those become even more important when the pressure's.

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<v Speaker 1>On and you know what, it's okay to ask for help,

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<v Speaker 1>not try to be the hero.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, sometimes the most professional thing is admitting you need support.

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<v Speaker 3>A fresh perspective can make all the difference.

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<v Speaker 1>So we've talked about pressure collaboration, but there's this other

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<v Speaker 1>aspect of the clean coder that's really fascinating, this idea

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<v Speaker 1>that programmers shouldn't be lone wolves that it's actually unprofessional.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he even tells a story about getting fired

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<v Speaker 2>for being too focused on the tech and not enough

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<v Speaker 2>on the bigger picture, the business impact.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's like, we got to remember we're building solutions

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<v Speaker 1>for real.

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<v Speaker 2>People, understanding the business, talking to users.

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<v Speaker 3>It's all part of the job.

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<v Speaker 1>I had this project once where I was so deep

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<v Speaker 1>and optimizing an algorithm, m I totally missed a key

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<v Speaker 1>constraint related to the company's internal processes.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh no, did you have to rework everything we did?

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<v Speaker 1>It was a hard lesson and the importance of asking questions,

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<v Speaker 1>not assuming you have all the answers, collaborating with everyone involved.

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<v Speaker 2>And speaking of collaboration, Uncle Bob's a big fan of

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<v Speaker 2>collective code ownership.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I've worked in places where certain code was like

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<v Speaker 1>someone's personal kingdom.

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<v Speaker 2>He argues that shared ownership leads to better solutions, less resentment.

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<v Speaker 1>And then there's pair programming, which I know could be controversial.

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<v Speaker 2>He addresses all the common objections feeling slowed down, fear judgment,

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<v Speaker 2>but the benefits are huge better code, constant review, knowledge sharing.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like having a built in second brain, catching errors

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<v Speaker 1>before they become disasters. So we've covered a lot professionalism, learning, collaboration,

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<v Speaker 1>but there's one more piece we haven't touched on, the

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<v Speaker 1>journey from apprentice to craftsmen.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh that's a good one. He even tells this adorable

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<v Speaker 2>story about learning to program as a kid. He was

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<v Speaker 2>fascinated by this little toy computer, even built a computerized

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<v Speaker 2>gait for his neighbor.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah, that's awesome. It reminds you the pure joy of coding,

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<v Speaker 1>the possibilities, and.

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<v Speaker 2>That sets the stage for his exploration of the different

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<v Speaker 2>stages of a programmer's growth.

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<v Speaker 1>The apprentice, the journeyman, the master. Sounds kind of like

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<v Speaker 1>a fantasy.

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<v Speaker 2>It does, but it's really about the skills, the mindset,

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<v Speaker 2>the values you develop over time.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's more than just technical ability. It's about character.

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<v Speaker 2>Development exactly, and that's what we'll be digging into in

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<v Speaker 2>the next part of our deep dive.

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<v Speaker 1>So stick around. We'll be right back after short break.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, So we left off talking about this idea

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<v Speaker 2>of a programmer's journey, but before we get to the apprentice,

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<v Speaker 2>journeyman master thing. There's this other concept Uncle Bob brings

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<v Speaker 2>up about teams and how they should be structured, which

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<v Speaker 2>honestly kind of blew my mind, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, right. It goes against how a lot of companies

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<v Speaker 1>do think totally.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, you finish a project, the team disbands, everyone gets

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<v Speaker 2>shuffled around. Uncle Bob's like, no bad idea. He's all

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<v Speaker 2>about persistent teams.

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<v Speaker 1>So instead of forming teams around projects, you have these

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<v Speaker 1>long term units and you assign projects to them based

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<v Speaker 1>on their skills and experience exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes so much sense when you think about it,

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<v Speaker 2>like a well functioning team. It's like a well oiled machine.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone knows each other's strengths, they can anticipate each other's moves.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like a sports team. You don't swap players out

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<v Speaker 2>every game.

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<v Speaker 1>You build that chemistry, that trust over time.

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<v Speaker 2>And Uncle Bob talks about this fermentation process, right, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>teams go through these stages, the awkward getting to know

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<v Speaker 2>you phase, maybe.

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<v Speaker 1>A honeymoon period, and finally they reach this point of

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<v Speaker 1>like seamless collaboration. They're in sync.

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<v Speaker 2>And once you have that, why break it apart?

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<v Speaker 1>Seems so counterproductive, right, You lose all that.

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<v Speaker 2>Momentum totally and think about the knowledge transfer, the continuity.

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<v Speaker 2>With persistent teams, you don't have to start from scratch

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<v Speaker 2>every time.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's I bet te morale is higher when you know

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<v Speaker 1>you're in it for the long helse.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh absolutely, it creates a sense of ownership, of shared responsibility.

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<v Speaker 2>But okay, let's be real. Even with the best teams

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<v Speaker 2>in the world, pressure is going to happen, right, Deadlines, stayholders,

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<v Speaker 2>breathing down your neck.

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<v Speaker 1>The joys of software development, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Uncle Bob doesn't sugarcoat it. He acknowledges that pressure is

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<v Speaker 2>part of the game, but he also gives some great

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<v Speaker 2>advice on how to handle it like a.

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<v Speaker 1>Pro, like what still the beans?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, first off, managing your commitments. Remember that language of

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<v Speaker 2>commitment we talked about.

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<v Speaker 1>Clear specific promises about what you can deliver and buy.

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<v Speaker 2>When exactly, don't over promise, set realistic expectations from the start,

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<v Speaker 2>and when the pressures coming from outside those demanding stakeholders.

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<v Speaker 1>Ooh yeah, those are fun.

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<v Speaker 2>Uncle Bob's all about setting boundaries, having those tough conversations.

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<v Speaker 1>By doing it professionally right, not just blowing up at

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<v Speaker 1>people exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>It's about using your expertise to guide things in the

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<v Speaker 2>right direction. And another thing he emphasizes keep things clean.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait, not just code, Nope.

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<v Speaker 2>Your design, your workspace, even your mental state.

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<v Speaker 1>I never thought about it like that, but it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>When everything's chaotic around you, it's hard to think straight.

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<v Speaker 2>So declutter refactor creates some.

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<v Speaker 3>Order where you can.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like clearing the cash in your brain totally.

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<v Speaker 2>And then there's this concept of a crisis discipline, like

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<v Speaker 2>when everything's going wrong, what are your go to practices?

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<v Speaker 1>I got to have my list my emergency procedures first

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<v Speaker 1>breathe remind myself I've solved tough problems before. Then break

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<v Speaker 1>the problem down into smaller, more manageable pieces.

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<v Speaker 2>Those are great. Uncle Bob also talks about sticking to

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<v Speaker 2>your disciplines even under pressure, TDD, pair programming, whatever works

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<v Speaker 2>for you.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like, don't abandon the things that make you a

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<v Speaker 1>good developer.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know what, It's okay to ask for help.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't be afraid to say I need a hand.

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<v Speaker 1>Sometimes that's the most professional thing you can do.

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<v Speaker 2>Admitting you don't have all the answers, seeking a fresh perspective. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so we've talked about pressure teamwork, but there's this whole

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<v Speaker 2>other layer to the clean coder, this idea that programmers

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<v Speaker 2>shouldn't be these isolated figures, these lone wolves.

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<v Speaker 1>He actually argues it's unprofessional to be that way.

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<v Speaker 2>He even tells the story about getting fired for being

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<v Speaker 2>too focused on the tech and not enough on the

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<v Speaker 2>bigger picture, the business impact.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a reminder that we're not coding in a vacuum.

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<v Speaker 2>Right exactly, we're building solutions for real people, for real businesses.

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<v Speaker 1>I had this experience once I was so focused on

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<v Speaker 1>optimizing an algorithm, I completely overlooked a key constraint related

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<v Speaker 1>to the company's internal processes.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh oh did that cause problems big time.

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<v Speaker 1>We had to rework a huge chunk of code because

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<v Speaker 1>I hadn't taken the time to understand the full context

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<v Speaker 1>the business side of things.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a good lesson in the importance of asking questions,

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<v Speaker 2>collaborating with everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>And speaking of collaboration, Uncle Bob's a huge advocate for

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<v Speaker 1>collective code ownership. Like no one owns a specific module,

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<v Speaker 1>everyone can contribute.

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<v Speaker 2>It breaks down those silos right, leads to better solutions,

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<v Speaker 2>less resentment.

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<v Speaker 1>And then there's pair programming, which I know some people love,

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<v Speaker 1>some people hate.

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<v Speaker 2>He dives into all the common objections, feeling slowed down,

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<v Speaker 2>fear of judgment, but he really highlights the benefits better

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<v Speaker 2>code quality, constant review.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like having a built in second pair of eyes,

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<v Speaker 1>catching errors before they become disastrous. Plus you learn from

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<v Speaker 1>each other. It's like constant knowledge sharing.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so we've covered a ton of ground professionalism, collaboration,

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<v Speaker 2>but we haven't even gotten to the individual journey of

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<v Speaker 2>developer yet. The apprentice journeyman master all that good stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Which he sets up with this adorable story about learning

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<v Speaker 1>to program as a kid.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh right, He was fascinated by this little toy computer,

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<v Speaker 2>even built a computerized gait for his neighbor using it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's so cool. It reminds you of that like pure joy.

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<v Speaker 2>Of discovery, and that sets the stage for his exploration

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<v Speaker 2>of the different stages of a programmer's growth, the skills,

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<v Speaker 2>the mindset, the values you develop over time, and that's what.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to unpack in the final part of our

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<v Speaker 1>deep dive into the clean coder. Right, welcome back to

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<v Speaker 1>the deep dive. We've been on quite a journey through

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<v Speaker 1>the clean coder from professionalism to collaboration to pressure, and

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<v Speaker 1>this idea of a programmer's journey the apprentice to craftsmen.

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<v Speaker 1>But now let's get down to brass tacks. How do

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<v Speaker 1>we actually live this stuff? How do we take Uncle

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<v Speaker 1>Bob's wisdom and make it real in our day to

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<v Speaker 1>day work?

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<v Speaker 2>Right, it's one thing to read about it, not along,

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<v Speaker 2>but then you're back in the trenches, facing deadlines, dealing

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<v Speaker 2>with people.

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<v Speaker 1>So what are some actionable steps things we can start

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<v Speaker 1>doing today to become more clean coders in the truest sense.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it.

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<v Speaker 2>Starts with awareness, honestly, just keeping these principles top of

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<v Speaker 2>mind as you're coding, as you're interacting with your.

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<v Speaker 1>Team, So almost like a mental checklist. Am I doing

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<v Speaker 1>no harm? Am I communicating clearly?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? And look, no one's perfect. We all slip up.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's about the intention, that commitment to excellence that's

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<v Speaker 2>what sets you apart.

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<v Speaker 1>And Uncle Bob makes this point craftsmanship spreads by example,

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<v Speaker 1>not by force. So it's not about lecturing your teammates

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<v Speaker 1>or anything like that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's about leading the way, showing them the benefits of

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<v Speaker 2>clean code of collaboration.

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<v Speaker 1>And you might be surprised. People start noticing, they start

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<v Speaker 1>emulating those behaviors totally.

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<v Speaker 2>It creates this ripple effect, this culture of excellence.

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<v Speaker 1>Be the change you want to see, right, but in

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<v Speaker 1>this case, be the clean.

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<v Speaker 2>Coder exactly, And you don't have to do everything at once.

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<v Speaker 2>Start small, spend an extra fifteen minutes refactoring, write a

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<v Speaker 2>better commit message.

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<v Speaker 1>Little things add up, especially when they become habits. And

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<v Speaker 1>speaking of habits, remember that twenty hours a week for

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<v Speaker 1>professional development.

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<v Speaker 2>I know it sounds like a lot, but even if

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<v Speaker 2>you can do a fraction of that, it makes the

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<v Speaker 2>difference in the long run.

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<v Speaker 1>It's an investment in yourself, your skills, your future.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's not just about the technical stuff. It's about

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<v Speaker 2>staying curious. Go to conferences, explore new technologies, expand your horizons.

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<v Speaker 1>Embrace that lifelong learner mindset, never stop growing.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know what, it's also important to find balance.

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<v Speaker 2>Remember John from the Gorilla Art story, sacrificing everything, burning out, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that was rough.

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<v Speaker 1>We got to take care of ourselves too.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Absolutely, hobbies, family, things that bring you joy. It's

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<v Speaker 2>about sustainability. You can't pour from an empty cup.

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<v Speaker 1>Set boundaries, prioritize your well being. It's not selfish, it's essential.

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<v Speaker 2>And remember Uncle Bob talks about finding joy and like

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<v Speaker 2>that story about building the computerized gait.

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<v Speaker 3>As a kid.

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<v Speaker 1>It reminds you of the magic, the possibilities that initial spark.

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<v Speaker 3>Don't lose sight of that.

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<v Speaker 2>Experiment, work on side projects, have fun.

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<v Speaker 1>It's all about rediscovering that passion, letting it fuel your journey.

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<v Speaker 1>So as we wrap up this deep dive into the

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<v Speaker 1>Clean Coder, I want to leave you with this thought,

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<v Speaker 1>the apprentice to craftsman journey, it's not a destination, it's

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<v Speaker 1>a process, a continuous evolution.

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<v Speaker 2>Embrace your own path, find mentors who inspire you, and

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<v Speaker 2>never stop learning.

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<v Speaker 1>Because these principles professionalism, collaboration, craftsmanship, they're not just about

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<v Speaker 1>writing better code. They're about building a better.

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<v Speaker 3>World, one line at a time.

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<v Speaker 1>Beautifully said. And on that note, we'll wrap up this

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<v Speaker 1>episode of the Deep Dive. We hope you enjoyed this

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<v Speaker 1>journey through the Clean Coder and that you found some

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<v Speaker 1>nuggets of wisdom to apply in your own work in life.

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<v Speaker 1>Until next time, happy coding, everyone,