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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them.
Speaker 6: Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history.
Speaker 6: True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski,
Speaker 6: Good Evening. In nineteen sixty eight, young girls went missing
Speaker 6: in California and New York. Massive searches started and soon
Speaker 6: bodies began to turn up. This is the story of
Speaker 6: Rodney al Kala, the good looking photographer that was in
Speaker 6: New York University studying under Roman Polonski and even once
Speaker 6: had won on the popular TV game show Dating Game,
Speaker 6: but now was wanted for rape, torture and murder of
Speaker 6: several young girls. He would make the girl suffer until
Speaker 6: they passed out, then rape them, and when they came
Speaker 6: to he would beat them again before killing them. Alan R.
Speaker 6: Warren best selling True crime author and radio show host
Speaker 6: takes you through each step of the story in shocking detail,
Speaker 6: including numerous details from the trials and the appeals that
Speaker 6: have been going on for over twenty years while Alkala
Speaker 6: sits on death row. The book they were featuring the
Speaker 6: Sevening is The Killing Game, The True story of Rodney Alcala,
Speaker 6: the game show Serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist
Speaker 6: and author and true crime podcaster Alan R. Warren. Welcome
Speaker 6: back to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 6: greeing this interview. Alan R.
Speaker 7: Warren, Thanks very much for having me. It's pleasure.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much. You've brought us an even more
Speaker 6: fascinating author than typically. This is one we mentioned just
Speaker 6: when we spoke. I had not heard of this killer,
Speaker 6: at least I did not know the details at all.
Speaker 6: This is incredible. Let's talk about why you wanted to
Speaker 6: cover this case. What was it how you came to
Speaker 6: write The Killing Game.
Speaker 7: Well, someone actually sent me information about it, and I
Speaker 7: was sort of like you. I had heard little bits,
Speaker 7: but didn't really know that much about what he was
Speaker 7: doing or what he had done. So and I started
Speaker 7: to look into it. It started to really intrigue me
Speaker 7: because there was so many, so many points to this.
Speaker 7: As you know you've been through it now, it kind
Speaker 7: of was overwhelming, and there's so many parts to the story.
Speaker 7: I love writing books in this area because I want
Speaker 7: this to be brought to an attention of the public,
Speaker 7: which is something that I again I didn't know why.
Speaker 7: It wasn't he like he was a real serial killer,
Speaker 7: a mass murderer, And it's something you don't really hear about.
Speaker 6: Now as you write in a book. He was born
Speaker 6: Rodrigo Alcala Buquar in San Antonio, Texas, in nineteen forty three.
Speaker 6: He had three siblings, and his parents and his grandmother
Speaker 6: her mother. They lived together and religion was very important.
Speaker 6: And you say, in nineteen fifty one, the grandmother took
Speaker 6: ill and they decided to move back to Mexico so
Speaker 6: she could be where she grew up. And you say,
Speaker 6: after two years she died, and then the father took
Speaker 6: off back to the US. Now you talk about his
Speaker 6: move back to Los Angeles. Tell about what the circumstances
Speaker 6: were that Rodney's mother had to move back to Los Angeles,
Speaker 6: and tell us a little bit about his personality and
Speaker 6: his experiences in high school in Los Angeles.
Speaker 7: Well, it seemed like when they were in Mexico, when
Speaker 7: his father left them, they didn't really have an intention
Speaker 7: of getting back together like the parents. And I'm not
Speaker 7: exactly sure why they stayed together as a couple but
Speaker 7: lived apart. I couldn't really get a good answer on that.
Speaker 7: But when they did decide to move back to la
Speaker 7: he was actually a popular kid, did pretty well in school,
Speaker 7: gone along pretty good with the siblings, and had friends
Speaker 7: and dated girls, and no real issue there. He did
Speaker 7: all the things that you know, good family did. They
Speaker 7: would go to the park, go to the zoo, just everything.
Speaker 7: I just I see nothing unusual other than the father
Speaker 7: leaving the mother. But that's that's something that's pretty common nowadays.
Speaker 7: So again you would think he was okay, you know.
Speaker 7: So the childhood up to that was pretty good.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about in nineteen sixty one, he joins
Speaker 6: the US Army in North Carolina, and so we see
Speaker 6: some inkling of the future here, and he's a paratrooper,
Speaker 6: So tell us what happens in the army. There's some
Speaker 6: interesting events while his he stays in the military.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and that was sort of the first sign of
Speaker 7: any issues with his mental condition because he was nineteen
Speaker 7: when he joined. He wanted to be a paratrooper. And
Speaker 7: he went to North Carolina and he worked as a
Speaker 7: clerk with the army and things seemed to be going
Speaker 7: okay the first year. Just into nineteen sixty two, his
Speaker 7: father died and he came home for the funeral. Everything
Speaker 7: went as usual, the family came to the funeral, everything
Speaker 7: was fine, as good as can be expected. Then he
Speaker 7: went back to work for the army. He went back
Speaker 7: to Carolina and was doing his job as usual. And
Speaker 7: then sometime in nineteen sixty three, late sixty two, his
Speaker 7: mother was home in La cooking and all of a sudden,
Speaker 7: Rodney turned up at the door and she was totally
Speaker 7: shocked and what are you doing here? And he said, well,
Speaker 7: I went able I left. And she was like just traumatized,
Speaker 7: and she kind of thought, well, you have to turn
Speaker 7: yourself in. And it took her two days to get
Speaker 7: her son to go. So she basically turned him in.
Speaker 7: And so what they did was they set him up
Speaker 7: for a routine, you know, psych evaluation and a few
Speaker 7: other things, and that's when they decided they actually discharged
Speaker 7: him and diagnosed him with antisocial personality disorder. It was
Speaker 7: just like it seemed like out of the blue, because
Speaker 7: up to then, everybody thought he was doing fine. But
Speaker 7: one thing that his mother didn't know was when he
Speaker 7: went back after the funeral, his lead officer started to
Speaker 7: put in reports that, you know, before the funeral, he's
Speaker 7: very organized, a very efficient, a very good person to
Speaker 7: have on the team. After he was, you know, he
Speaker 7: would just be a mess. He was not doing a
Speaker 7: very good job. He would late all the time, he
Speaker 7: was inefficient, he didn't seem to care. And I guess
Speaker 7: they give him a little bit of time to see
Speaker 7: if they could pull him out of his I guess depression,
Speaker 7: but it just never happened and he just left.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you fast forward to September twenty fifth, or at
Speaker 6: least we will the September twenty fifth, nineteen sixty eight,
Speaker 6: in Los Angeles, and a motorist calls police to report
Speaker 6: seeing Rodney. You're an eight year old girl, Tally Shapiro
Speaker 6: into his Hollywood apartment. So tell us what this motorist.
Speaker 6: You call him a good Samaritan, But it's just a
Speaker 6: citizen doing what he thinks is right and having those
Speaker 6: great instant so tell us what happens.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, I kind of went down the good
Speaker 7: Samaritan because this is nineteen sixty eight and this is
Speaker 7: a lot more of an innocent time. And so him,
Speaker 7: you know, him picking up an eight year old girl
Speaker 7: and in the car in Hollywood, you wouldn't necessarily be suspicious,
Speaker 7: but for some reason he was, and so he decided
Speaker 7: to follow them. They followed. He followed them back to
Speaker 7: Rodney's place and he saw them go into the building
Speaker 7: and he felt it was really suspicious, you know, so
Speaker 7: he went picked up the he went to a payphone,
Speaker 7: you know, something that we used to have back then,
Speaker 7: and he and he called the police and said, this
Speaker 7: is something going on. So the police decided to send
Speaker 7: a couple of people to check it out, and that
Speaker 7: was Camacho was one guy, and he did most of
Speaker 7: the talking about it. And he said they approached the door,
Speaker 7: knocked on the door and just wanted to do a check,
Speaker 7: and he eventually opened and that's when they saw her
Speaker 7: all covered in blood and laying on the on the floor.
Speaker 7: So of course they pushed the door in and ran
Speaker 7: over to her. They they actually thought she was dead
Speaker 7: when they first saw her, and she actually moved and
Speaker 7: let out a little cough, so they were right away,
Speaker 7: of course, were concerned with her. But what happened was
Speaker 7: Rodney just went out the back door. He just escaped,
Speaker 7: so you know, he got away with it, and he
Speaker 7: had he had raped her twice and beat her. She
Speaker 7: did survive, but you know, she was an eight year old,
Speaker 7: and what he had done was he'd actually picked her
Speaker 7: up when she was walking along the street in West
Speaker 7: Hollywood heading to school, and he promised it he would
Speaker 7: you take her to school. And then he had told
Speaker 7: her he had to stop at his place because he
Speaker 7: had to pick up something. And so that's where it
Speaker 7: all happened. And so now I have to say afterwards,
Speaker 7: what happened was her family decided to move away from
Speaker 7: the States. They didn't want to live in the US anymore.
Speaker 7: It was too violent, and so they went back to Mexico.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I just wanted to make sure everybody in the
Speaker 6: audience realizes that too, she wasn't dead, even though they
Speaker 6: realized she was dead. And while while he ran out
Speaker 6: the back she came back to life. So miraculous recovery.
Speaker 6: But like you say, the family would not have anything
Speaker 6: to do with it, and that would impact this trial potentially,
Speaker 6: wouldn't it, Because he used to say this would necessitate
Speaker 6: some sort of plea agreement. And so they also, you say,
Speaker 6: they found a picture idea of Alkalis, so they knew
Speaker 6: who they were looking for. And so he was on
Speaker 6: the run, wasn't he.
Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly, They knew exactly who he was, and they knew,
Speaker 7: you know, what had happened, and they and so, but
Speaker 7: he took off. He went to New York originally and
Speaker 7: was kind of hiding out, and it actually took them
Speaker 7: almost three years to locate him and arrest him. So
Speaker 7: you know, he was out for a while.
Speaker 6: Yes, you talk about that. He was. In nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 6: FBI put him on the its most wanted list. And
Speaker 6: then just in August seventy one, a couple of campers,
Speaker 6: again back to the old days, used to put wanted
Speaker 6: posters at the again kind of an outdated thing post office.
Speaker 6: And so they were at the post office for some
Speaker 6: unusual reason and they looked at these want posters and
Speaker 6: they said, hey, this looks like our camp counselor mister Burger.
Speaker 6: Take it from there. What happens as a result of
Speaker 6: them recognizing mister Burger.
Speaker 7: Yeah, because what had happened was he when he went
Speaker 7: to New York, he actually got a job for the
Speaker 7: summer working as a camp counselor. So he was an
Speaker 7: all girls' school drama counselor, and it was the one
Speaker 7: Direction group, which of course pretty much focuses on age
Speaker 7: nine to eleven girls, so he was their counselor and
Speaker 7: he had been working every summer. Actually, two of the
Speaker 7: girls that went to the that were camping and went
Speaker 7: to the post office and they got stuck there because
Speaker 7: it was pouring rain, and that's when they saw the
Speaker 7: picture and they thought, well, that looks like him, but
Speaker 7: it couldn't be. And when they went back to the camp,
Speaker 7: they told the dean and he kind of brushed it off,
Speaker 7: but inside he was suspicious. So he went to the
Speaker 7: post office himself and decided he was going to look
Speaker 7: at this picture. And he spent a lot of time there,
Speaker 7: he said, somewhere from forty five minutes to an hour
Speaker 7: just looking at the picture and trying to figure if
Speaker 7: it was him or not. And he was suspicious enough
Speaker 7: that what he did was he called the number, the
Speaker 7: FBI number on the most wanted list, and they told
Speaker 7: him to say nothing and they would check it out, basically,
Speaker 7: So he went back to the camp said nothing. The
Speaker 7: next day they showed up and they actually run his
Speaker 7: prints and it was Rodney A. Kella. So they called
Speaker 7: the LA Police Detectives that was in charge. And of
Speaker 7: course this is what really helped with the case as well,
Speaker 7: because it was Steve Odell and I just had his number,
Speaker 7: and of course we've talked to him several times about
Speaker 7: other cases and his own family and Black Daly, I remember,
Speaker 7: and and so I called him and said, well, tell
Speaker 7: me what you know. And he was flown over to
Speaker 7: pick a Colla up and when he was bringing him back,
Speaker 7: even the unusual thing he said to him was saying, well,
Speaker 7: why did you do this or tell me about about
Speaker 7: the case? And Rodney turned around and said, I don't
Speaker 7: really want to talk about that. Was that was Rodney
Speaker 7: who I don't want to talk about him as if
Speaker 7: he was a third person. So he only was he
Speaker 7: using that other identity of John Berger. He seemed to
Speaker 7: be believing he was that other person, John Berger. So
Speaker 7: that that was kind of a little bit unusual for Steve,
Speaker 7: you know, was he just setting up something to be
Speaker 7: considered infane. Was he doing this on purpose or did
Speaker 7: he really believe it? And of course Steve didn't believe
Speaker 7: him at all. He just uh he he just in
Speaker 7: his opinion. Uh, this guy was was just putting on
Speaker 7: a show. He was just pretending. So they took him
Speaker 7: back and he uh but you see that's where it
Speaker 7: comes into where Talley and her family left and uh
Speaker 7: so they had nobody to testify against him, and they
Speaker 7: couldn't get them to come back. So he ended up
Speaker 7: taking a plea for this and it was a three
Speaker 7: year sentence for contributing to a minor you know, in
Speaker 7: in that in those days, that was kind of like
Speaker 7: a molesting charge of a child. And he was let
Speaker 7: out within without within one year, right, so you know
Speaker 7: it was it was it's pretty uh it's really the
Speaker 7: start of of of his career killing and it just continued.
Speaker 7: He had the luck of the Irish. Just incredible.
Speaker 6: Also, I thought was really ironic, and we talked about
Speaker 6: it in an introduction is again somebody and another infamous
Speaker 6: character is that he's he's a really good student and
Speaker 6: he's he's working under taking he's taking film under Roman Polanski,
Speaker 6: so another irons.
Speaker 7: Actually, I have to say he actually graduated from the
Speaker 7: Arts Arts College there in la with honors. And when
Speaker 7: he was admitted into NYU to be in Polanski's class,
Speaker 7: he was easily accepted. And you've got to you know,
Speaker 7: they had seven hundred people apply for Roman Polanski's class
Speaker 7: and only accept it maybe seventy. And he was he
Speaker 7: was taken in. So he was he was very good
Speaker 7: at at his at his photography, and he must have
Speaker 7: been a very good student in the class itself, no
Speaker 7: issues at all, So he wasn't dumb and he was
Speaker 7: very good at what he did. He must have had
Speaker 7: some sort of how do you say, talent for taking pictures.
Speaker 6: Well, obviously that contributes in this story too dramatically. Also
Speaker 6: talk about that he was at film school and doing
Speaker 6: really well, but all of a sudden he's getting a
Speaker 6: job in New Hampshire and they said, well that was
Speaker 6: you say that it was out a character for him
Speaker 6: at that time, but likely it was the murder of
Speaker 6: Cornelia Michelle Crilly And we'll explain a little bit more
Speaker 6: about that as we talk about the book and more
Speaker 6: in depth. This is a flight attendant raped and strangled
Speaker 6: in Manhattan in June nineteen seventy one. So you talk
Speaker 6: about now that with this interview with Hodell, and he
Speaker 6: doesn't believe him, and they can't get the girl to
Speaker 6: come back because a family moved to Mexico. He gets
Speaker 6: to two point five years or you say, pardon me,
Speaker 6: he's out in the year. What does he do next?
Speaker 6: What's his next job and what's his next crime?
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, because so he actually got a job with
Speaker 7: the La Times as a typesetter originally, and then that
Speaker 7: was really unusual because later on when he is getting
Speaker 7: arrested later years later, that's when the La Times didn't
Speaker 7: even run a check on him. They just hired him.
Speaker 7: And so they had no idea because at this time,
Speaker 7: because you remember he was he was convicted of this
Speaker 7: child molesting and in jail for a year and got
Speaker 7: out on probation. So he's on probation, they had no
Speaker 7: idea that that's who it was, like they which is
Speaker 7: kind of really strange. I thought a strange irony there,
Speaker 7: because you've got La Times, you know, hires them, and
Speaker 7: he's not even they didn't even know. And so but
Speaker 7: another thing is why I say, was he had a
Speaker 7: lot of charisma. He must have had the looks that
Speaker 7: people liked at the time, and he had a way
Speaker 7: of doing things because he walks into his probation officer
Speaker 7: and says he wants to travel to New York and
Speaker 7: they say, yeah, go ahead. So he would fly to
Speaker 7: New York and he would attack, rape and kill someone
Speaker 7: and come back. And he was doing this several times
Speaker 7: years later, and just something we kind of put together
Speaker 7: when we were finishing the book was really the thought
Speaker 7: that what he was doing was going to different cities.
Speaker 7: So he would pick New York because there was a
Speaker 7: mass killing going on. He would go to Seattle and
Speaker 7: kill kill girls while the Hillside Strangler was there. He
Speaker 7: would go to Boston. He was picking cities that were
Speaker 7: there was some sort of serial killing going on that
Speaker 7: was making the news that was really popular. And I
Speaker 7: didn't get that initially when I was putting the book together.
Speaker 7: It was something we kind of put together later because
Speaker 7: of all the hits on his DNA in all these
Speaker 7: cities now, and so he was doing this on purpose
Speaker 7: in his own mind. He was kind of picking places
Speaker 7: that were in the news already for somebody, like you know,
Speaker 7: like the Boston strangler, or the Hillside and the the
Speaker 7: New York killer at the time, it's slipping my mind.
Speaker 7: So he yeah, but he was picking things that were
Speaker 7: making the news.
Speaker 6: Now you include some other and we've got to not
Speaker 6: bogged down on any one particular crime because it's just
Speaker 6: there are so many and this is such a complex
Speaker 6: story and he's such a complex criminal. But you do
Speaker 6: include this nineteen seventy five attack on Hunting Beach just
Speaker 6: the demonstrative to show his mo and how he operated.
Speaker 6: So can you tell us about this the girl that's
Speaker 6: waiting for the school bus and some of the things
Speaker 6: that he does to try to lure her, and you
Speaker 6: talk about Julie Johnson as well. Tell us a little
Speaker 6: bit about what he's doing in nineteen seventy five and
Speaker 6: his method of operation.
Speaker 7: Well, in general, he was he had two different kind
Speaker 7: of themes, but the main one, I think, the one
Speaker 7: you're talking about, is when he would he would either
Speaker 7: drive up to them and say, hey, I know your parents,
Speaker 7: or did you need a ride to school? Or he
Speaker 7: would tell them he was a photographer and he was
Speaker 7: in a contest take pictures, and he would pick what
Speaker 7: they were doing. If they were girls, roller skating or whatever,
Speaker 7: and he would say, I need to take pictures of
Speaker 7: girls on skates and you could win and we could win,
Speaker 7: and that kind of theme was what he was doing.
Speaker 7: And some would run away and some would say sure,
Speaker 7: some would let him take pictures, and some like the
Speaker 7: thirty Julie Johnson, he would take to a park and
Speaker 7: then start taking pictures, and he would give them a
Speaker 7: joint of pot kind of loosen them up. Then he
Speaker 7: would sort of tell them all, we should do one
Speaker 7: without a top, you know, and that sort of thing.
Speaker 7: And sometimes he would take them back to his house
Speaker 7: and say, oh, I need a piece of equipment. I've
Speaker 7: left a lens or something at home, and get them
Speaker 7: to his place. So he had he had the basic
Speaker 7: kind of theme that he run and would would get
Speaker 7: them into an isolated location and that's where he would
Speaker 7: usually attack them or rape them then and it started
Speaker 7: leading into the torture where he would tie them up
Speaker 7: and start to punish them in a way, you know,
Speaker 7: everything from cutting parts of their body to burning parts
Speaker 7: of their body, and then they would pass out, he
Speaker 7: would rape them, they'd come to and then he would
Speaker 7: do it all over again. And that seemed to be
Speaker 7: his general theme throughout the seventies with most of the girls. Now,
Speaker 7: this is something that why I said this thing earlier,
Speaker 7: All of the girls in LA you'll notice, we're very young,
Speaker 7: twelve thirteen, fifteen. The girls in New York were twenty three,
Speaker 7: thirty two. And so this is kind of what kind
Speaker 7: of ties it together, because he would look at the
Speaker 7: crime going on in that city and he would go
Speaker 7: for that type of person. You see, the girls that
Speaker 7: were getting killed and raped in New York were all
Speaker 7: in their twenties and thirties, but he seemed to have
Speaker 7: a preference for teenage girls, young girls for himself. And
Speaker 7: even when he went to Seattle and the two girls
Speaker 7: they suspect there, again they're older. Because he was fitting
Speaker 7: into the he was copycatting in those cities to to
Speaker 7: get his pleasure. So it sort of changed. But most
Speaker 7: of the girls in LA all very young.
Speaker 6: Another feature of this is too, and maybe I'm jumping ahead,
Speaker 6: is that there is a display of these women. And
Speaker 6: we talk about, well you talk about evidence of am
Speaker 6: sodomizing them forcible vaginal entry, and you also talk about
Speaker 6: the display, which again is not incredibly unique, but is
Speaker 6: rare that the perpetrator would pose and display his victims.
Speaker 6: So tell us some more about again is uniquely or
Speaker 6: very rare horrifying details.
Speaker 7: Yeah, for some reason when he got into the torturing
Speaker 7: effect and started doing that, because in the very first
Speaker 7: ones he didn't do it as he did later, Like
Speaker 7: he started to get really into having a long session
Speaker 7: like burning them and doing all this stuff, and then
Speaker 7: he started displaying them and in a direction to where
Speaker 7: whoever was going to discover the body. He wanted them
Speaker 7: to see that body in a certain position and doing
Speaker 7: a certain thing. He wanted to make sure that's what
Speaker 7: they saw. And so you know, for instance, the one
Speaker 7: that he did across from Marlon Brando's house at the Park,
Speaker 7: Jill Barnacle, she was nineteen, and so he actually he
Speaker 7: would have them on their knee and kind of spread
Speaker 7: them open facing in this case, you know, Marlon Brando's door,
Speaker 7: and lay them backwards, and then he would do the cutting.
Speaker 7: So he would cut parts of the of the around
Speaker 7: the anus and that area and put their hands in
Speaker 7: their fingers facing the vagina so that they're almost pointing
Speaker 7: at themselves and head back. So laying back with the
Speaker 7: with the legs up, so it was right facing. He
Speaker 7: wanted them to see this image. For some reason, it
Speaker 7: became his regular calling. He started doing that with all
Speaker 7: of them. And and and that we don't really know
Speaker 7: exactly what he was trying to do. If he was
Speaker 7: trying to suggest something to the to the people that
Speaker 7: were going to discover the body, if he wanted them
Speaker 7: to be shocked. It's kind of unusual. We don't really
Speaker 7: know what his what what his point was to this.
Speaker 7: It's kind of unusual. And and that that too, the
Speaker 7: Marlon Brandon one, it was really strange to the lead
Speaker 7: detective happened to be Philip Vnattter, you know from O. J. Simpson.
Speaker 7: There was a lot of interesting people involved in this case,
Speaker 7: you know. And and when he went to New York too.
Speaker 7: Ellen Hover was the god daughter of Dean Martin and
Speaker 7: Sammy Davis Junior, and her dad owned owned Cyril's in
Speaker 7: Hollywood in the seventies. That was a huge place to
Speaker 7: go for all the stars. And they put a huge
Speaker 7: reward out for her the killer to find her or
Speaker 7: find where she was or who the killer was. And
Speaker 7: again see she was twenty three and in New York,
Speaker 7: so he was picking off people that were the right
Speaker 7: age at the time, so I guess they wouldn't suspect him.
Speaker 7: Maybe that was it. Maybe it was just the thought
Speaker 7: of as a different killer. Who knows.
Speaker 6: But he was also dumping in areas, like you said,
Speaker 6: across some Marlon Brando's place, so he knew this was
Speaker 6: about as high profile as you could get as well.
Speaker 7: Yeah, he wanted to make a statement, not only with
Speaker 7: the positions and what they were doing and how they
Speaker 7: were tortured. He wanted to make sure that they were
Speaker 7: found in a certain location, in a certain position. He
Speaker 7: wanted them to see full frontal immediately when they found
Speaker 7: the body. And that's kind of the question, Marcus. What
Speaker 7: was he trying to get out of people? Yeah, high profile,
Speaker 7: but he would have got that either way because it
Speaker 7: became so many bodies. It became so many people that
Speaker 7: getting the attention of the media was not hard. So
Speaker 7: what he was trying to get out of that, I'm
Speaker 7: not quite sure. Maybe it just excited him. Maybe that
Speaker 7: was the thrill.
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Speaker 6: Certainly you talk about too that He got to some point.
Speaker 6: I found this even more disturbing that some sort of
Speaker 6: flaming instrument was placed between the woman's legs in this
Speaker 6: last case where Van Natter is the crime scene tende
Speaker 6: so something that singed her and burnt her some device,
Speaker 6: so you don't mention specifically what it is, but incredible.
Speaker 6: So what yeah, and when do I mean? We've got
Speaker 6: the New York police looking for somebody named Berger because
Speaker 6: they see that in one of the women's diaries that
Speaker 6: this John Berger photographer. So they're looking for John Berger
Speaker 6: unbeknownst that there's these California murders. And like you say,
Speaker 6: he's a devious serial killer in that he tries to
Speaker 6: avoid detention and apprehension by mixing up the victims among
Speaker 6: you know, recognized serial killer operating in that city. So
Speaker 6: what does he do and who is on his trail? Finally,
Speaker 6: what's that one incident or event that gets police to
Speaker 6: close the uh, you know, the crowd him into a
Speaker 6: potential arrest.
Speaker 7: Well, really the case that well, it's the case that
Speaker 7: really caught him, but at the same time it's also
Speaker 7: given the most problem to the to the prosecutors. And
Speaker 7: really the Robin Samso case from seventy nine in Huntingdon Beach,
Speaker 7: now that was a really unusual set of circumstances because
Speaker 7: he basically got this twelve year old girl, and you know,
Speaker 7: he takes her up to a forest, a park almost,
Speaker 7: but it's not really popular, and he's got her on
Speaker 7: the side of the road and just then Dana Krappa,
Speaker 7: who is a forest ranger, drove by and saw them,
Speaker 7: saw not only him but the twelve year old girl
Speaker 7: standing off the side of the road beside the car,
Speaker 7: and she kind of got a weird feeling, she said,
Speaker 7: but she didn't report it, and she just went to
Speaker 7: the ranger camp and forgot it. And the next day
Speaker 7: she's driving by the same road going down into the
Speaker 7: park and she sees him with the same car and
Speaker 7: no girl, but this time he's covered in mud and
Speaker 7: what looked like blood, So she said it give her
Speaker 7: a creepy feeling again, but again she doesn't report it
Speaker 7: to anybody, and she goes back to camp and says nothing,
Speaker 7: so that was really strange why she was behaving this way.
Speaker 7: And then a couple of days later, she's out with
Speaker 7: another ranger actually and there's other rangers in the area,
Speaker 7: and he kicks some looks like bones, animal bones at her.
Speaker 7: It freaked her out, but again nothing said, so, then
Speaker 7: she drives out by herself one night and she goes
Speaker 7: to the area to see if there's anything there, and
Speaker 7: she said later that that's when she saw bones of
Speaker 7: a human. Now she did again, she doesn't report this,
Speaker 7: and a couple of days later, this is going on
Speaker 7: over a two week period. Another ranger finds the actual
Speaker 7: remains of this Robin Samso and but calls it in
Speaker 7: so later when they're questioning this ranger, Dana Krappa, they
Speaker 7: there is confusing because you know, first of all, she
Speaker 7: said she on the third time she went out she
Speaker 7: saw the bones. It wouldn't be bones only after two weeks,
Speaker 7: you know, that was the first issue. The other is
Speaker 7: why did she not report three different events or even
Speaker 7: four really where she's seen human remains or she seen
Speaker 7: a suspicious guy with a girl then found remains and
Speaker 7: didn't report it. So, you know, that was a real
Speaker 7: problem because when it went to trial, you have someone
Speaker 7: that's you're witness to the to tying him to the
Speaker 7: body into that location, but you can't trust her, you
Speaker 7: can't believe in in how she's reporting and what she's saying,
Speaker 7: So that kind of gives them a problem. And in fact,
Speaker 7: you know, it's been appealed three times now and two
Speaker 7: times it's been overturned, and both times it's been because
Speaker 7: of her testimony. You know, the second time especially because
Speaker 7: the California Court of a you know, Supreme Court of
Speaker 7: Appeal actually suggested that the police had hypnotized her into
Speaker 7: her testimony, and they overturned it on that. You know,
Speaker 7: I can't tell you how confusing and how long that's
Speaker 7: been going on with that particular case. So again, you know,
Speaker 7: he was just convicted of that case, among four others,
Speaker 7: but it's already an appeal because again, all death row
Speaker 7: cases get into automatic appeal. And the problem is when
Speaker 7: I talked to the lead detector of that case too,
Speaker 7: and like he said, what he said wasn't very nice.
Speaker 7: He was saying, in his words exactly, it was, they're
Speaker 7: going to keep getting appealed in California as long as
Speaker 7: we have a liberal and then some swear words Supreme
Speaker 7: Court for appeals. And I will say, you know, okay,
Speaker 7: so that's his opinion. But looking into it, it's true
Speaker 7: because sixty five of seventy three of the death row
Speaker 7: cases have been appealed have been successfully overturned with the
Speaker 7: California Supreme Court, so they tend to have some sort
Speaker 7: of a leaning of always turning over the case. And
Speaker 7: I really can't, for the life of me figure out why,
Speaker 7: because it's unusually high amount of cases get overturned in California.
Speaker 7: So that.
Speaker 6: In this particular case, though, when you mentioned Dana Crappa,
Speaker 6: again very unusual. I've never read anything quite like this
Speaker 6: where Dana Crappa, outside of the jury's ears, goes to
Speaker 6: the judge and says, listen, I can't remember everything. I
Speaker 6: can't remember anything I did as a firefighter. I can't
Speaker 6: remember anything I testified at the previous trial. I shouldn't
Speaker 6: be able to go on the stand. So then he
Speaker 6: made a ruling. They argued, but the judge made a
Speaker 6: ruling and said, okay, well we can have her testimony
Speaker 6: read out at trial, but she doesn't have to be
Speaker 6: on the stand. And even I was reading that, going
Speaker 6: that sounds like that's not gonna somebody's going to have
Speaker 6: an issue with that, especially when it's it's death penalty,
Speaker 6: and especially with it seemed like a qualified attorney, right,
Speaker 6: so the vigorous defense and all that, So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: so crazy that even more complicates this story, doesn't it.
Speaker 7: So yeah, the whole thing is you know, I I
Speaker 7: I just you know, you go through it and you
Speaker 7: just kind of go, wow, how does all this stuff happen?
Speaker 7: And why do we why do we keep perpetuating this thing?
Speaker 7: It just keeps moving forward and costing a lot of
Speaker 7: money for something we know, you know, and why why
Speaker 7: why did they even use her at this point. I
Speaker 7: guess they had to because she was the only witness,
Speaker 7: but it just it was it was just it didn't
Speaker 7: it didn't end well, but it brought him to the
Speaker 7: attention of of everybody. And during the trial processes of yes,
Speaker 7: you know of the three trials two thousand and twos
Speaker 7: where DNA gets accepted by the court, right, so all
Speaker 7: of a sudden they can start using DNA, and DNA
Speaker 7: starts sort of really helps to convict him and really
Speaker 7: the other four girls in that same twenty ten trial
Speaker 7: where really he was convicted of them really on just
Speaker 7: the DNA, which was something they never had originally. They
Speaker 7: you know, the good thing about California is they've always
Speaker 7: done rape kits and kept them. They've never given them up.
Speaker 7: So as they work through all these old cases, they
Speaker 7: can do a DNA profile and they get a lot
Speaker 7: of hits on people like Ekala. So you know he
Speaker 7: had some sort of charisma too, because back in that
Speaker 7: park case in Pasadena and seventy nine with Monica hote
Speaker 7: Hoyt you know again, a young girl teen years old,
Speaker 7: he picks up, takes up to the park, takes some
Speaker 7: pictures of her, gives us some dope, and gets her
Speaker 7: loosened up, and then he starts raping and attacking her
Speaker 7: right in the park. A park ranger sees them from
Speaker 7: a distance, doesn't know what's going on, just sees this
Speaker 7: couple up there doing something, approaches them and she screams,
Speaker 7: you know that she wants to go home and she's
Speaker 7: being attacked and all that. So the guy takes takes
Speaker 7: them both back to the ranger office, calls it in,
Speaker 7: but he believes he believes Rodney of Kella. He doesn't
Speaker 7: believe the girl. And in his opinion, there's quite often
Speaker 7: you see young girls selling themselves to older guys in
Speaker 7: the park. I mean, just everything he did, he could
Speaker 7: just charm his way through things. Just amazing, amazing how he.
Speaker 6: Got you talk about too, when we call it the
Speaker 6: dating game serial Killer. So let's talk about just briefly,
Speaker 6: his appearance on the dating game. I have seen this footage,
Speaker 6: and I think a lot of people have seen this footage,
Speaker 6: and they've seen the photo and some of the photos
Speaker 6: of him at court later with much longer hair. But
Speaker 6: tell us about this bizarre dating game appearance that he
Speaker 6: is on.
Speaker 7: Yeah. I kind of thought it was kind of weird.
Speaker 7: I thought his behavior was weird. I look at it
Speaker 7: and I think he's really creepy. You know. So it's
Speaker 7: September in it's nineteen seventy eight, so he's kind of
Speaker 7: been he's been killing now for ten years. He's kind
Speaker 7: of in the middle of it, and he's and in fact,
Speaker 7: all through around this dating game he had done killed
Speaker 7: two people before it and just won right after it.
Speaker 7: So he was a very, very busy at this time.
Speaker 7: And but people loved him. He was popular on the show,
Speaker 7: and Cheryl Bradshaw Shaw was the bachelorette and she chose him.
Speaker 7: And I don't know about you, but I kind of
Speaker 7: thought it was creepy. I thought his whole whole demeanor
Speaker 7: and when he's saying stuff like like what what she
Speaker 7: I think? She asked him. What if if he was
Speaker 7: a drama teacher and she was going to audition and
Speaker 7: you know, bachelor one, you're you're a dirty old man,
Speaker 7: so take it. And he would be really creepy, you know,
Speaker 7: come on over here, I'm an old man, you know,
Speaker 7: and and I'm serving you for dinner. What's it like?
Speaker 7: And he said, see, I'm a I'm called a banana,
Speaker 7: and I look really good, you know, And so describe
Speaker 7: yourself more. And he goes, well, unpeel me, you know.
Speaker 7: And I thought it was creepy. I I don't know.
Speaker 7: For me, it was really creepy. But she chose him,
Speaker 7: and so they stand at the end and they blow
Speaker 7: the kiss, and of course he gets they get a
Speaker 7: prize some weekends in some nice hotel with dinner and
Speaker 7: everything's paid for. But she said that when they went
Speaker 7: in the back and they were talking, he was way
Speaker 7: too strange a guy for her. She called him creepy.
Speaker 7: And in fact, she wouldn't even she wouldn't go on
Speaker 7: the free date in the free hotel and money and
Speaker 7: anything with him. So there you go, I you know,
Speaker 7: but you know the thing is when you look at him,
Speaker 7: he had to look for the seventies. You know, the
Speaker 7: long hair and sideburns, and he wasn't bad looking. And
Speaker 7: he you know, he was smart enough. He could speak well.
Speaker 7: He he had finished at art school, and he had
Speaker 7: his degree, he worked at LA He had all these
Speaker 7: things going for him. But behind scenes, I guess he
Speaker 7: was a little bit too creepy.
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Speaker 6: com slash murder. Let's talk about Monique Hoyt because this
Speaker 6: story in itself, and again these are the kinds of
Speaker 6: people that testified much later on and this is where
Speaker 6: we get this information. But tell us about a very
Speaker 6: bundesque this attack. So tell us about Monique Hoyt and
Speaker 6: some of the incredible things she does to survive.
Speaker 7: Well, that was the Monique Hoyt. She was fifteen years
Speaker 7: old and hitch hiking out of downtown Pasadena in nineteen
Speaker 7: seventy nine. And it's February, and so you know, I
Speaker 7: guess it was the times, because I was thinking, well,
Speaker 7: I was a fifteen year old girl hitch hiking, you know,
Speaker 7: you know, it's kind of you know, but it seemed
Speaker 7: to be the time. I guess. I guess what people
Speaker 7: did back then, and you know, love love ins and
Speaker 7: all that was going on. And I'm not sure, but
Speaker 7: he pulled up to her and was, you know, in
Speaker 7: her mind, very charming. He was a nice man, good looking,
Speaker 7: and he picked her up, and he had, you know,
Speaker 7: a lot of photo equipment and and he said his
Speaker 7: real name, Rodney A. Cullis, So he didn't try to
Speaker 7: fake or anything, but he said to her he had
Speaker 7: to pick up some more equipment at his house and
Speaker 7: he wanted to take photos of her and all that,
Speaker 7: but it was actually getting too dark by the time
Speaker 7: they got there. It was starting to be dark, you know,
Speaker 7: it's February, And so she actually stayed the night with him,
Speaker 7: and I guess nothing bad happened. And the next morning
Speaker 7: the two of them drove up to the mountains and
Speaker 7: it's about seventy five miles out of LA I think
Speaker 7: it was Riverside County if I remember right, And he
Speaker 7: parked the car and the two walked for about fifteen
Speaker 7: minutes into the forest, and that's when he started taking pictures.
Speaker 7: And then he asked her to take off her clothes
Speaker 7: and he started having her pose in different positions and
Speaker 7: would she mind taking some nude ones, And so she
Speaker 7: removed all of her clothes and she let him take pictures.
Speaker 7: And then he grabbed her t shirt and pulled it
Speaker 7: up over her head and would hold it there. And
Speaker 7: then he started to to just to suffocate her really
Speaker 7: and she passed out and and he would and then
Speaker 7: he raped her and and she regained consciousness and then
Speaker 7: uh uh the same sort of thing, you know. He
Speaker 7: h you know, would start to torture her and he
Speaker 7: was into that's when he started, like he bit her
Speaker 7: genitals and uh and her breasts and uh, you know,
Speaker 7: flipped her over. He sodomized her, and he he just
Speaker 7: went through. He just went through a torturous thing. And
Speaker 7: and uh, she would be quiet and and pretend she
Speaker 7: was asleep and and and then she started screaming. He
Speaker 7: would grab her and and stuff the shirt in the
Speaker 7: mouth and he just, uh, he just continued to choke
Speaker 7: her and beat her, and she went unconscious again. And
Speaker 7: it just it was it was kind of I guess,
Speaker 7: it just seemed like endless amount of time and then
Speaker 7: she would beg to get out, and uh, it was
Speaker 7: just it was one of those long, long, terrible things
Speaker 7: that happened. And and I guess so when they were
Speaker 7: driving back from the mountains to LA when he stopped
Speaker 7: at a gas station, he had to go use the bathroom,
Speaker 7: and uh, that's when she got out, ran to the
Speaker 7: motel next to the gas station and began screaming, and
Speaker 7: they called the police, and uh, and so you know,
Speaker 7: when the police showed up, you know, he's all he's
Speaker 7: already h taken off. He's run out to his car
Speaker 7: and took off and fled, you know. And again, you know,
Speaker 7: you start you start thinking what what possessed him to
Speaker 7: do these sort of weird things to think he would
Speaker 7: get away with it, and I just you know, uh,
Speaker 7: you know, she even pointed, you know, he got pointed
Speaker 7: out in the in the in the lineup, and you know,
Speaker 7: it's the same old thing. What did he do? He
Speaker 7: was on for marijuana possession at the time, and just
Speaker 7: they just I'm you know, I'm I'm can't quite remember everything,
Speaker 7: but you know he so what was he It's not like.
Speaker 6: What happens with the police investigating this, And you talk
Speaker 6: about Steve Odell too, say that he learned so much
Speaker 6: by his appearances or it stays in prison so that
Speaker 6: they didn't want to have any victims be able to
Speaker 6: testify against them. So when we go through this numerous
Speaker 6: victims and this litany of crimes, basically he's learning to
Speaker 6: not trust anybody like this young girl because she uses
Speaker 6: this survival instinct to fool him into believing that, hey,
Speaker 6: I'd like to spend some time with you, and then
Speaker 6: she plans to escape when she gets a chance when
Speaker 6: he goes into the washroom. So later in his murders,
Speaker 6: you see that he makes sure that there are nobody
Speaker 6: going to be testifying against them. Whatsoever you say in
Speaker 6: two thousand and two, they get breaks because they do
Speaker 6: have DNA and have a person like Steve O'Dell, this
Speaker 6: dedicated police officer that knew that you suspected that this
Speaker 6: guy was a serial killer just based on his experience
Speaker 6: and based on this method of operation and opposing. You
Speaker 6: talk about one of these crimes where he actually gets
Speaker 6: a bedroom lamp facing upwards and directed at the woman's vagina,
Speaker 6: and so he just keeps progressing, progressingly worse. I guess
Speaker 6: more and more of his bizarre fantasy is being incorporated
Speaker 6: into the photography and the posing.
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Speaker 6: And again, it's in his obvious delight in sodomizing and
Speaker 6: raping these women, young women, older women. When they finally
Speaker 6: be able to get their hands on Rodney al Kala,
Speaker 6: what does he say? What's his demeanor? He doesn't confess
Speaker 6: or plead guilty to any of the murders till that
Speaker 6: DNA is in. So we go through trials where he
Speaker 6: pleads not guilty and has a vigorous defense from his attorney.
Speaker 6: But in those rare interviews when he speaks, what's that like?
Speaker 6: Tell us, as you do in the book, what that's
Speaker 6: like for authorities when they interview Rodney Alkella.
Speaker 7: Well, I think they were pretty confused. Was in the
Speaker 7: sense that you know, he would he would take different angles.
Speaker 7: I mean, once he like I said, he took the
Speaker 7: angle of it was like a third person or it
Speaker 7: wasn't him, you know, he talked like he was another person.
Speaker 7: And then the others he would like even in the
Speaker 7: trial when he was acting as his own attorney, he
Speaker 7: would say things like he wanted just to know about
Speaker 7: ear rings. He would focus on on on the set
Speaker 7: of ear rings they found in his locker in Seattle
Speaker 7: that belonged to Robin Samso and and he would he
Speaker 7: would just ask people, you know, if if if if
Speaker 7: they if they found any ear rings on the body,
Speaker 7: or if they saw any ear rings, and and he
Speaker 7: just sort of didn't have He was just kind of
Speaker 7: kind of scattered in all over the place, and he
Speaker 7: was almost happy. A strange person.
Speaker 6: You have that when he the storage unit is discovered,
Speaker 6: they see a receipt. A savvy officer sees a receipt.
Speaker 6: It's not part of the warrant, but he records it.
Speaker 6: They find a couple of keys, they go to a
Speaker 6: storage unit, and then they find thousands of photographs, you say,
Speaker 6: twelve hundred photos, negatives and slides, and they find binoculars
Speaker 6: in his dats, and they find photography equipment maps, thirty
Speaker 6: five millimeter camera and so they have basically a kit
Speaker 6: that he has and they know that there's as you
Speaker 6: write in the book there they finally release one hundred
Speaker 6: photos or more of people that the FBI would like
Speaker 6: to know if these people were victims, and if anybody
Speaker 6: can come forward any information to identify who these people are.
Speaker 6: He took that many photos of young girls, and as
Speaker 6: you say, even a lot of those of young boys.
Speaker 6: You talk about a bull whip, a black wig. He
Speaker 6: had binders, He had magazines called Young and Naked. He
Speaker 6: had rope, handcuffs. So we had everything that every serial
Speaker 6: killer seems to have had. And we talked about you
Speaker 6: talk about in the book where he hits that woman
Speaker 6: with the tree branch, which again we've talked for three
Speaker 6: episodes now about Bundy and his influence. They could use
Speaker 6: any weapon, but they're using a tree branch at the
Speaker 6: same time that Bundy's is being famous and being deemed infamous.
Speaker 6: At trial when he's defending himself, obviously he doesn't do
Speaker 6: a great job. But you say, with these appeals, with
Speaker 6: the death penalty, this is extended for over twenty years.
Speaker 6: Tell us about the court case where they're able to
Speaker 6: put four murders from California and then Robin Samso all together.
Speaker 6: Tell us about that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that would that that finally happened. That was the
Speaker 7: third trial on the murder of Robin Samso, and he
Speaker 7: decided to represent himself completely then, so he no longer
Speaker 7: had any lawyers, so he was he was really strange then.
Speaker 7: You know, he shows up to court wearing a sports
Speaker 7: coat and shirt and blue stripe blue tie, and he's
Speaker 7: and he's got sunglasses on and everything looked. He just
Speaker 7: I mean, it's just crazy, not what you'd expect at
Speaker 7: a trial, especially for murder. And you know, it's just
Speaker 7: it's just crazy. And so he ended up they combined
Speaker 7: all of the cases there he uh the robbery, rape,
Speaker 7: burglary of h Charlotte Lamb and Jill Parantu and Georgia
Speaker 7: Wicks did and Jill Barkle as well as Robin Samsung,
Speaker 7: so he has so he's being prospers it for all
Speaker 7: five and so it was pretty gruesome. They go through
Speaker 7: all the details and it's the same thing, you know.
Speaker 7: So he got to cross examine all of the people
Speaker 7: like he gets to cross examine the victims that have survived,
Speaker 7: the families as well as himself. And it's just crazy
Speaker 7: because you know, could you imagine this guy just asking
Speaker 7: himself the questions like, you know, hours exactly, and he
Speaker 7: just went on and on and the thing is all
Speaker 7: that all that really came out of it. He was,
Speaker 7: like I said, he was focused totally on that sit
Speaker 7: of air rings because one of the things was Robin
Speaker 7: SAMSO's mother identified the air rings found in his locker
Speaker 7: being to her daughter. He was trying to say it
Speaker 7: was him, they belonged to him, and he had and
Speaker 7: he actually had a picture from the dating game where
Speaker 7: he was on and they actually showed it on the
Speaker 7: on the to the jury and everybody a little flash
Speaker 7: and it wasn't even a half of a second of
Speaker 7: him sitting on there on the on the TV show
Speaker 7: and he's trying to say, we see there's my ear rings.
Speaker 7: Those ear rings are the same. This is no way
Speaker 7: they could compare that to a pair of earrings, and
Speaker 7: that seemed to be the focus. Even he ignored the
Speaker 7: other four girls really and what he had done to
Speaker 7: them that were that he was on trap for. He
Speaker 7: just he didn't even bother questioning or really following through
Speaker 7: on those. It was all. It was just crazy. And
Speaker 7: of course he got convicted on every count and it
Speaker 7: didn't even take them two days to figure that out.
Speaker 7: But here we are again. You know, we're back up
Speaker 7: to the appeals because you know, it's another death penalty,
Speaker 7: and it just keeps on going. This is the case
Speaker 7: that will never end. It really won't because I keep
Speaker 7: finding all these DNA matches and now he's up for
Speaker 7: twelve more is the latest I've heard. There's twelve more
Speaker 7: girls that they've tied him to with DNA.
Speaker 6: Wow. Wow, it's incredible. You talk about so it is
Speaker 6: it seems crazy to the public that the case that
Speaker 6: seems so obviously this guy is so obviously guilty. But
Speaker 6: you know, it does look like some legitimate issues were
Speaker 6: raised in appeal, like inmate informants, because then you have
Speaker 6: the these guys saying that they did purjure themselves at
Speaker 6: that first trial, and they said that the police came
Speaker 6: to them and or they got together themselves. I'm not
Speaker 6: quite sure, but they got themselves together and lied to
Speaker 6: implicate Alkala. So that's a good reason to throw something out, definitely.
Speaker 6: And the first moment we talked about too was the
Speaker 6: idea that all of his prior crimes could be admissible
Speaker 6: and relevant to the case at hand with Robin Samso
Speaker 6: the first time around, so we can see that. And
Speaker 6: the other issue was that they need they would defense
Speaker 6: would always fight for the be able, the ability to
Speaker 6: be able to cross examine an actual witness, not a
Speaker 6: witness's testimony written read out to the jury, especially given
Speaker 6: how troublesome that that Dana Crapus testimony was in the
Speaker 6: first place. You talk about a very very interesting thing
Speaker 6: that goes on in this trial though, with Robin SAMSO's
Speaker 6: grieving mother tell us what she does at trial, or
Speaker 6: at least what could have happened, and what she tells
Speaker 6: the media after the trial.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that was pretty surprising because for me, the third
Speaker 7: trial was twenty ten and she actually went into the
Speaker 7: trial every single day and she sat about twenty thirty
Speaker 7: feet away from Brodnia College, depending on the setup for
Speaker 7: the day. And she had a gun in her purse,
Speaker 7: and she came into the court and she sat and
Speaker 7: she would put her hand into her purse and hold
Speaker 7: on to the gun because if he was going to
Speaker 7: get off again, or if he was you know, if
Speaker 7: he'd get away with it, or if something wasn't going
Speaker 7: to go the way she thought it should be, she
Speaker 7: was going to shoot him. She didn't want to go
Speaker 7: through this again. And you know, the original Samsul case
Speaker 7: I think was nineteen eighty, so this is twenty ten
Speaker 7: and he's still getting appeals and going through then. You know,
Speaker 7: people don't realize, or maybe they do, but I just
Speaker 7: I think the court doesn't realize how difficult it is
Speaker 7: on family members like that, because so for thirty years,
Speaker 7: she's been going through interviews and she's been going through trials,
Speaker 7: and just think of thirty years of this and it
Speaker 7: just keeps going on and on and on, and you know,
Speaker 7: she's at the point where she's had it. So she
Speaker 7: goes in with the gun every single day, and there
Speaker 7: was times where I guess she was so close to
Speaker 7: just pulling it out and shooting him, and in her
Speaker 7: mind she said I could do it. I was close
Speaker 7: enough to him, and I would do it. And he
Speaker 7: got convicted for the third time on that one and
Speaker 7: four others. And so she came out of the courtroom
Speaker 7: and exposed her gun to the media and said that
Speaker 7: she had every intention of killing him and if he
Speaker 7: wasn't going to get convicted, she was going to do it.
Speaker 7: And that really surprised me, because how did she get
Speaker 7: into a courtroom in twenty ten without anybody. I thought
Speaker 7: they were all secured by that.
Speaker 6: Time by that time.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's interestingly too that it's interesting too parton me
Speaker 6: in the penalty phase that they were able to convince
Speaker 6: the Tally Shapiro, who was now twenty six years old,
Speaker 6: to come and testify, and she had been kidnapped and
Speaker 6: raped at eight years of age. And then you say
Speaker 6: too that Monique Hoit's father came because Monique Hoit couldn't
Speaker 6: make it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, it was. It was quite lucky that they
Speaker 7: were able to get it all together by that third
Speaker 7: trial enough to convince the jury. But again, you know,
Speaker 7: it's coming to the problem of how long does this
Speaker 7: go on? You know, when you get automatic death penalty appeal.
Speaker 7: You know, like I said, it's just it's dragging this
Speaker 7: on and on and on. And I'm not being pro
Speaker 7: death or or negative, but I think we start it's
Speaker 7: at the point where we have to start looking at
Speaker 7: the system and deciding what we want out of it.
Speaker 7: Do we want real justice? Do we want I mean,
Speaker 7: this is an obvious case of a man that's murdered
Speaker 7: several people, several we don't even know the number, and
Speaker 7: we just keep on retrying and retrying and retrying and
Speaker 7: going through all this kind appeals because you know, when
Speaker 7: you bring up things like like the Dana Crapper, you know,
Speaker 7: when her her testimonies is unstable, maybe it is, maybe
Speaker 7: it's not the most secure, but we know what he's done.
Speaker 7: I don't know. I don't know if I have an answer,
Speaker 7: but I just know that this is this is we're
Speaker 7: dragging this out for all of the family for years
Speaker 7: and years and years and years and not really resolving anything.
Speaker 6: It seemed to me that even just being and again
Speaker 6: I'm not a judge, so if I could see as
Speaker 6: you wrote the story, that there would seem to be
Speaker 6: in my mind, just based on experience, seeing how cases
Speaker 6: are overturned in appeal, that there was these issues that
Speaker 6: I just mentioned a few minutes ago. So to me
Speaker 6: is not only is an inordinate amount of time, effort,
Speaker 6: and money, And that's what the problem is with the
Speaker 6: death penalty sentences, with these automatic Supreme court appeals, is
Speaker 6: that the incredible cost to counties and to states and
Speaker 6: the entire country these motions and appeals and expensive elaborate trials.
Speaker 6: So the death penalty itself creates even more of a
Speaker 6: cost and even more time delay and for justice to
Speaker 6: be served. But I think what's interesting to me is
Speaker 6: that all these highly respected, trained jurist judges can go
Speaker 6: through these cases and yet make these seemingly obvious errors
Speaker 6: over and over again. You'd see in a lot of
Speaker 6: cases and a lot of books where the judges are
Speaker 6: particularly careful because they know that the threat of appeal
Speaker 6: is a possibility. And it seems like you didn't know
Speaker 6: any better. It looks like a make work program in
Speaker 6: that there's a lot of work and there's a lot
Speaker 6: of emphasis on this person that most people would want
Speaker 6: to never see again, at least put in a cage,
Speaker 6: if not all the other people that would like to
Speaker 6: just see him really punished for what he did, because
Speaker 6: he is one of the most horrendous killers in the
Speaker 6: history of killers. So I don't know what to say
Speaker 6: other than it seems particularly disturbing that everybody that's an
Speaker 6: expert in the law can make these errors over and
Speaker 6: over and over again, dragging the case. But more importantly,
Speaker 6: more importantly these victims. A person has to come when
Speaker 6: she's twenty six years old to the penalty phase for
Speaker 6: death penalty on the third go round of a trial,
Speaker 6: and without DNA it wouldn't have had anything at all. Really,
Speaker 6: it seems incredible that there's to be that much effort
Speaker 6: put into this. And again it's in twenty sixteen. Tell
Speaker 6: us the status of how many you mentioned? Twelve more murders?
Speaker 6: So what's the actual count up that they can say
Speaker 6: this is pretty firm. And what's the status of Rodney
Speaker 6: o'calla and all his appeals in twenty.
Speaker 7: Seventeen, you know, And well, for for the system itself.
Speaker 7: I think the experts that the problem is the experts
Speaker 7: in the law that do these things, judges and prosecutors
Speaker 7: and stuff. They're doing it for the system. They're doing
Speaker 7: it for the law that you know, the victims and
Speaker 7: the family are just kind of like side effects. They're
Speaker 7: kind of it's kind of a for them. It's it's
Speaker 7: become almost a they're working on the issue. They're trying
Speaker 7: to trying to so they do these things to create
Speaker 7: law and to create president and stuff, so they sort
Speaker 7: of it's gone outside of it. It doesn't matter about
Speaker 7: the participants in the crime. They're more concerned about the system.
Speaker 7: And that's sort of that's the problem because it's out
Speaker 7: of hand. Now you get you get people like this
Speaker 7: that are going to go through years and years every
Speaker 7: single day, and it seems like every month we hear
Speaker 7: about more people tied to this guy. You know, we
Speaker 7: got two more girls, a thirteen year old and a
Speaker 7: seventeen year old from the late seventies in Seattle. You
Speaker 7: know that they actually had handed to the Hillside strangler,
Speaker 7: and now they know from DNA. It's not same as
Speaker 7: there's people in San Francisco, there's people in Wyoming, there's
Speaker 7: people in in I think there's six states. Now we
Speaker 7: have twelve the last I mean, since the book, there's
Speaker 7: been twelve more hits of Rodney at College's DNA. So
Speaker 7: we've got seventeen people that he's not been convicted of,
Speaker 7: but his DNA has hit, and so we you know,
Speaker 7: more than likely, you know, he's definitely he's somehow involved
Speaker 7: in seventeen more murders, you know, I just I don't know.
Speaker 7: We've got five eight murders that he's convicted of for sure,
Speaker 7: And like you were saying earlier, they've put over two
Speaker 7: hundred pictures now up trying to identify because he's taken
Speaker 7: pictures of them, and most of the pictures had to
Speaker 7: be shot photoshops, so you just see their face or
Speaker 7: their neck because a lot of them they were posed
Speaker 7: in sexual positions and not wearing any clothes. This is
Speaker 7: it's not looking good in how many he's It's like
Speaker 7: I said, it's just it's not going to end. This
Speaker 7: is going to go on far past his death. I mean,
Speaker 7: he's away for life now, they say, But he keeps
Speaker 7: getting the death penal, and he keeps getting appeals. So
Speaker 7: he's got four more appeals right now. He got convicted
Speaker 7: of three of them in New York and three cases,
Speaker 7: and so now it's just endless. You can't even keep count.
Speaker 7: In fact, I went back because it was so confusing,
Speaker 7: you know, I'm so busy, and then I keep going
Speaker 7: back to the when I was in the book doing
Speaker 7: the book, I had ended up changing all the titles
Speaker 7: and adding the victims and the year because there's just
Speaker 7: so many You go through it and you just you
Speaker 7: get confused. I'm still confused in the sense I sound
Speaker 7: that way because there are so many cases. And I
Speaker 7: wanted to at least put the names of the victims
Speaker 7: and the years more than him, because I want people
Speaker 7: to read that name, the year and the age the
Speaker 7: person and kind of go through the story. And I
Speaker 7: could keep writing this, I had to just stop and
Speaker 7: we just had to put the book out because it's
Speaker 7: just coming everything. You know. I just can't tell you
Speaker 7: how many people sent articles and how many newspapers. He
Speaker 7: just keeps getting just that a day from Darkness Radio
Speaker 7: just sent an article about I guess five more girls
Speaker 7: I hadn't even heard about now, or sus he's suspected
Speaker 7: of being involved. This is not going to end. He's
Speaker 7: seventy three now, he's just going to die in prison,
Speaker 7: and it's just going to keep going, you know. And
Speaker 7: it's one of those things that just I can't even
Speaker 7: you know what I mean, it hasn't been. I can't
Speaker 7: even give you a feeling of this because it just
Speaker 7: it's not over. I think it's I think it's maybe
Speaker 7: half way over, and it's going to be one of
Speaker 7: those things in fifty years or something, when people in
Speaker 7: our business look back at it, he's just going to
Speaker 7: be like a a marked serial killer. It's like, Wow,
Speaker 7: he's got like fifty seven people he's killed. I think
Speaker 7: it's going to be something like that. It's just it's
Speaker 7: it's you can't grasp. Yeah, you can't grasp how much
Speaker 7: he's really done. And he just never stopped. He was
Speaker 7: you know, he was one two one two one two.
Speaker 7: He just kept doing it and doing it. And all
Speaker 7: of those people he took pictures on it. You got it.
Speaker 7: He's had them naked, He's had them in some sort
Speaker 7: of place where he could have them naked and take pictures.
Speaker 7: You know, there isn't any that he didn't assault. I mean,
Speaker 7: at this point, when you look at those pictures of
Speaker 7: these girls and boys, mainly girls, do you think there's
Speaker 7: any that he didn't attack? I you know what I mean,
Speaker 7: And that's it sounds I guess I sound kind of
Speaker 7: defeated on that, because that's how I was feeling by
Speaker 7: the bye. By going through all this and talking to
Speaker 7: all these people and getting involved, I feel like this
Speaker 7: is not ended and not complete.
Speaker 5: It.
Speaker 7: This is one of those stories that not like the
Speaker 7: other ones I've written, where it's there's a beginning, middle,
Speaker 7: and end. It's just this. You know, you could keep
Speaker 7: writing this book. In fact, you could write a follow
Speaker 7: up and do at least two more books, probably.
Speaker 9: Lucky Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've
Speaker 9: gotten lucky?
Speaker 8: Lucky? In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in
Speaker 8: my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have
Speaker 8: to say?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 9: You do?
Speaker 8: In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?
Speaker 1: Really yes, excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 8: I never win?
Speaker 1: And tell well, there you have it.
Speaker 4: You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot
Speaker 4: com play for free right now?
Speaker 1: Are you feeling lucky?
Speaker 9: No, we're just necessary what we're gonna do? My long
Speaker 9: eighteen plus terms conditions plus what's every begins?
Speaker 7: And think about how much more detail you could get
Speaker 7: into if you really wanted to. But I don't know.
Speaker 7: Like I said, it just it. I sort of had
Speaker 7: to cut it off and move on, is what I did.
Speaker 7: And I figured in the future someone else can pick
Speaker 7: up or I've left off, and they're they're probably going
Speaker 7: to have another ten or twelve they could write about.
Speaker 7: And it's depressing to think about, right.
Speaker 6: Steve Odell is, like I say, we talked about it,
Speaker 6: and you were in correspondence with him, and it probably
Speaker 6: helped out quite a bit in this area at least
Speaker 6: give you some information because he was there. Tell us
Speaker 6: just a little bit more about some of the conversations
Speaker 6: you had with Steve Odell about Rodney o'kella.
Speaker 7: Well as Steve Hodell. I think for the most part,
Speaker 7: what it did was again, you know, it holds on
Speaker 7: to a person, an officer like Steve Odell, the detective
Speaker 7: that if anything, I guess I don't know if I
Speaker 7: want to call it a problem, but he's one of
Speaker 7: those officers that holds on to all of his cases
Speaker 7: and wants to resolve them. He doesn't. You know, it
Speaker 7: doesn't end just because you get new cases, you know,
Speaker 7: and the years go by, and then you actually get
Speaker 7: to go pick him up and bring him back and
Speaker 7: extradite him into the into it and it's all I
Speaker 7: don't know. The frustration level must be incredible when you
Speaker 7: when you have the person and you can't get the
Speaker 7: people to testify, you know, So here you go. You've
Speaker 7: got You've got this man that's just going around killing
Speaker 7: and killing and raping and doing all these things continuously,
Speaker 7: and you know it. And he lives in your in
Speaker 7: your city. I mean, how you know. I just can't
Speaker 7: explain the frustration that that. He couldn't describe it accurately enough,
Speaker 7: I think, because it's just it becomes you know, he's
Speaker 7: a very good detective, and it become very personal. Could
Speaker 7: you imagine that situation where then you take him in
Speaker 7: and he gets out in a year and he's on probation,
Speaker 7: and then all these other bodies just keep coming and
Speaker 7: coming and coming in. Nothing, nothing really gets resolved. I
Speaker 7: just couldn't imagine. I can't describe how he how he
Speaker 7: must have felt. And it's got to be something that
Speaker 7: stays with you forever, even to this day, even with
Speaker 7: all the other things going on in his life and
Speaker 7: now that he's retired. Could you imagine it must just
Speaker 7: be one of those things where you think about when
Speaker 7: you go to bed and you think about when you
Speaker 7: get up every single day. It's there. And that's what
Speaker 7: I mean with the system, even when you know the
Speaker 7: case and you know that we just know that he's guilty,
Speaker 7: have so many killings, so many torturous rapes that he's
Speaker 7: just he's just and you know, and I hate to
Speaker 7: say it, but he acts like it's a social affair
Speaker 7: at the trials. You can see some of the things,
Speaker 7: some of the tapes on on online now and he
Speaker 7: acts like he's at a party.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 7: It's just it's endless, you know. And it goes on
Speaker 7: even today with the cases stuff like Jody Erras, you know,
Speaker 7: the same things. She's just they just can kind of
Speaker 7: keep it going. And it's it keeps them, I don't know,
Speaker 7: keeps them entertained. But and and the legal systems set
Speaker 7: up where it thrives on this it's it's it loves
Speaker 7: these things. It's just the people involved, the families and
Speaker 7: even some of the victims that survived, they're the ones
Speaker 7: that it just the lives with them every single day.
Speaker 7: They can never break away because they have to keep
Speaker 7: on doing these things. Could you imagine more of his
Speaker 7: trials coming up, and still family members going what it
Speaker 7: would be like, like you spend your whole life, you
Speaker 7: talk about some of the girls, like tell you that's
Speaker 7: come back, and you think her whole life is going
Speaker 7: to be this case defines her life because everything is
Speaker 7: about this case, and it's right. It's not right because
Speaker 7: there's so much more to a person's life than that,
Speaker 7: And I think that's.
Speaker 6: Sorry. I could see anybody being involved with this, as
Speaker 6: from the citizen to everybody involved. The police that were
Speaker 6: investigated this, that would had to witness these crime scenes,
Speaker 6: these horrific crime scenes and partly decomposed bodies and the
Speaker 6: entire affair that some of these officers had to witness.
Speaker 6: Then the victims' families. There was crime scene photos passed
Speaker 6: the jurors, there were videos, There was the audacity of
Speaker 6: al Kala defending himself twice at trial. And so this
Speaker 6: entire thing is just a grim reminder of what justice
Speaker 6: is and what it isn't. In America and everywhere else,
Speaker 6: they can talk about justice, but justice has never had
Speaker 6: because no one really will be able to be fully
Speaker 6: satisfied when he gets an automatic appeal. And what people
Speaker 6: think is a comfortable treatment. It may not be comfortable
Speaker 6: in that jail cell. But when you see somebody enjoying
Speaker 6: themselves at trial after they've certainly enjoyed themselves killing one
Speaker 6: of their loved ones, it is unimaginable for me, even
Speaker 6: though I cover these things every week, that same sense.
Speaker 6: But that is why I really think that people, if
Speaker 6: they have any kind of feelings for the perpetrator, they
Speaker 6: at least need to have I would say a lot
Speaker 6: more feeling for the victims and the victims family before
Speaker 6: we start feeling any sympathy and start banging our pounding
Speaker 6: our fists about criminals rights. Again, I won't get into
Speaker 6: that subject here being in Canada, but you know that
Speaker 6: you have an even more disgusting system Lots of times
Speaker 6: when we see these kinds of killers. But again, this
Speaker 6: is a very unique killer. Rodney Alcala will definitely go
Speaker 6: down into the legion of infamous serial killers. I want
Speaker 6: to thank you very much for coming on and talking
Speaker 6: about the killing game, the true story of Rodney Alcala,
Speaker 6: the game show serial killer. Alan R. Warren, Maybe you
Speaker 6: can tell us a little bit more about the co
Speaker 6: host of House of Mystery and I had the great
Speaker 6: pressure of being on your program before, and you have
Speaker 6: a couple two crime books previously that we've talked about here.
Speaker 6: Maybe you can tell us a little bit more about
Speaker 6: House a Mystery and how they can access that and
Speaker 6: when it's on, and tell us a little bit more
Speaker 6: about where they might find out about your other work.
Speaker 7: Oh for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 7: The House of Mystery is on the in Seattle and
Speaker 7: now in Utah. It's on three different stations as well
Speaker 7: as online. Best thing to do is to go to
Speaker 7: somethingweirdmedia dot com and what you do is you get
Speaker 7: access to everywhere you can hear the show and as
Speaker 7: well as the books. I've done two books actually three,
Speaker 7: two are out right now and one more is coming out.
Speaker 7: And that was Above Suspicion of course Russell Williams and
Speaker 7: Bloodthirst which was about Wayne Bowden, the vampire killer, and
Speaker 7: then serial Killers around the World Volume one Australia. It
Speaker 7: was me as well part of a series. And yeah,
Speaker 7: so it's it's it's a lot of work and the
Speaker 7: House of Mystery has really really grown. We have five
Speaker 7: people there now. We have a true crime report from
Speaker 7: commentary from Stephen Lampley who's an author and then we
Speaker 7: have Julie sab Back doing Paranormal, and we have Michael
Speaker 7: Butterfield doing Zodiac. He was one of the one of
Speaker 7: the guys that was consulted on the new A and
Speaker 7: E series that's out, so he's doing like a little
Speaker 7: Zodiac report. And we have joe Yusinski from Miami Professor
Speaker 7: and he does the conspiracy countdown the top three every week.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and that's always interesting, you know, But but we
Speaker 7: try to take a logical point to it, not we're
Speaker 7: not doing We're not running with the big conspiracies. We're
Speaker 7: just telling you what people people are talking about. So no,
Speaker 7: we're not. We're just kind of throwing it around so
Speaker 7: people know. And and with Rodney of Keller, I should
Speaker 7: say one last thing just so people realize. Within after
Speaker 7: about the fourth victim, the bodies on almost every single
Speaker 7: one of these girls was so badly mutilated or cut
Speaker 7: up that they couldn't even show it. They had to
Speaker 7: do closed caskets and in some cases the at the
Speaker 7: funeral homes they said, we just can't put this body
Speaker 7: back together, so they got to. So I just want
Speaker 7: people to think about that and realize how much he
Speaker 7: really put these girls through before their death, and and
Speaker 7: and I included as many autopsy reports as I could
Speaker 7: find that you have the autopsy report saying that almost
Speaker 7: all of the torture, part, the cutting, the burning, and
Speaker 7: everything happened while they were still alive. That's how we
Speaker 7: know that he would torture them and keep torturing them
Speaker 7: while they were still alive. He didn't do all this
Speaker 7: mutilation after the death. So I just want that to
Speaker 7: absorb to people how much he put people through. And
Speaker 7: that's sort of why I have a hard opinion of him,
Speaker 7: as well as the system of as much as I
Speaker 7: appreciate a system where you have due process and you
Speaker 7: can get a lawyer or all that, I appreciate that,
Speaker 7: and we need to have some sort of balance because
Speaker 7: you've got people like Rodney A. Colla who's tortured and
Speaker 7: mutilated people while there's still alive and then kill them
Speaker 7: and you can't you can't even take them and you
Speaker 7: can't you can't even make them look appropriate to have
Speaker 7: an open casket. So that so people really think about
Speaker 7: that and think about the kind of person he was
Speaker 7: and how much he's really getting away with.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's something something definitely to think about.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that's I think that's the most important
Speaker 7: thing out of the case is if if, if we
Speaker 7: really you know, it's a hard thing to talk about,
Speaker 7: it's a hard thing to look at, but if we
Speaker 7: want to see improvements and how we treat each other
Speaker 7: and treat our victims, we have to really talk about that.
Speaker 7: We really have to decide what we want to do
Speaker 7: in cases like this. And They'm not running around rapid
Speaker 7: saying kill him all and do all this stuff. I'm not.
Speaker 7: I'm not really saying I have an answer, but there
Speaker 7: has to be something better.
Speaker 6: Well, part of the answer, I think is this, and
Speaker 6: I think it's crucial in your book, and we didn't
Speaker 6: mention this, but I think in light of where we
Speaker 6: are in this interview here is that at one point
Speaker 6: he got one year to life sentence and he had
Speaker 6: done all this damage to I. I apologize, I can't
Speaker 6: remember the woman's name, the young girl's name. However, you say,
Speaker 6: in light of everything he did, a parole board granted
Speaker 6: him parole in short order, thirty four months, I believe,
Speaker 6: so in short order he was released from that year
Speaker 6: he had to do minimum to life, so thirty four
Speaker 6: less than three years he was out. But when you
Speaker 6: consider what he did and then when you consider if
Speaker 6: he could do that his potential, that's that's a disturbing
Speaker 6: thing when we have to follow precedent and say that
Speaker 6: this crime, even though it's beyond comprehension, has to be
Speaker 6: lumped in with a similar crime because of the precedent,
Speaker 6: and then somehow we just forget the details of what
Speaker 6: actually he was capable of.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, it's and that's kind of a that's kind
Speaker 7: of where we have to focus if we want to
Speaker 7: make our justice systems better, you know, what would we want?
Speaker 7: And we have to think about it and talk about it,
Speaker 7: because really, what do we want? Could you? Would you
Speaker 7: want to be one of these victims families dealing with
Speaker 7: this this whole situation is it? Is it really justice?
Speaker 7: It's the system really looking out for the victim. You know,
Speaker 7: I don't. I don't see that. I see I see
Speaker 7: it as it's just as torturous for the for the
Speaker 7: for all the members of the at least, and we
Speaker 7: drag it out for their whole life.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, thank god we have DNA where we
Speaker 6: wouldn't have especially demonstrated in this case because of lack
Speaker 6: of forensic evidence and forensic evidence gathering because they wouldn't
Speaker 6: know what they would need in the future, and just
Speaker 6: time itself seems to lose evidence and all kinds of
Speaker 6: things happen. Is that, you know, these are the kinds
Speaker 6: of cases that without DNA, that would if this was
Speaker 6: this difficult and still is difficult, imagine without DNA in
Speaker 6: this particular case, what would we know. So thank God
Speaker 6: for DNA and those advances, because not only in this
Speaker 6: case as it tell us about victims we had no
Speaker 6: idea about, but in other cases it's crucial to get
Speaker 6: a conviction, which is under all the circumstances and all
Speaker 6: the you know, vigorous defense and all the rights that
Speaker 6: criminals enjoy, it's hard to get a conviction, it really is.
Speaker 6: This is a story that shows you how hard it
Speaker 6: is to conviction for one of the most horrible serial
Speaker 6: killers and one of the most again blatant and obvious
Speaker 6: of serial killers. Yeah, it's it's a cautionary tale without
Speaker 6: I guess maybe not your intent. Anyway, I want to
Speaker 6: thank you very much Alan for coming on and talking
Speaker 6: about the Killing Game, the true story of Rodney Olkaala
Speaker 6: The game show serial Killer. Thank you very much, Alan,
Speaker 6: you have a great evening and hope talk to you
Speaker 6: again real soon.
Speaker 7: Thank you, it's been a pleasure. Good Night, good night,