WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:03.879 Pete Rose logged more hits in baseball history than anyone else. 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:06.559 No one has come close to breaking his record, but 3 00:00:06.639 --> 00:00:08.519 he was also at the center of one of the 4 00:00:08.519 --> 00:00:12.960 game's biggest scandals, a scandal that changed baseball forever. 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That's Chumbuck 44 00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:58.040 Casino dot com. 45 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:00.040 Prison has every d void over every by law be 46 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:01.120 conficative of fading class. 47 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:14.039 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 48 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:17.159 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 49 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:18.080 written about them. 50 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:23.319 Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. 51 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:28.039 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 52 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.280 and infamous killers in true crime history. 53 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:35.719 True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, 54 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:50.360 Good Evening. In nineteen sixty eight, young girls went missing 55 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:54.439 in California and New York. Massive searches started and soon 56 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:58.039 bodies began to turn up. This is the story of 57 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.639 Rodney al Kala, the good looking photographer that was in 58 00:03:01.719 --> 00:03:05.360 New York University studying under Roman Polonski and even once 59 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:08.520 had won on the popular TV game show Dating Game, 60 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:11.879 but now was wanted for rape, torture and murder of 61 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:15.360 several young girls. He would make the girl suffer until 62 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:17.400 they passed out, then rape them, and when they came 63 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:21.439 to he would beat them again before killing them. Alan R. 64 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:24.360 Warren best selling True crime author and radio show host 65 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:27.560 takes you through each step of the story in shocking detail, 66 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:31.479 including numerous details from the trials and the appeals that 67 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:34.919 have been going on for over twenty years while Alkala 68 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.960 sits on death row. The book they were featuring the 69 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:41.599 Sevening is The Killing Game, The True story of Rodney Alcala, 70 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:45.800 the game show Serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist 71 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:49.919 and author and true crime podcaster Alan R. Warren. Welcome 72 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:52.000 back to the program, and thank you very much for 73 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:53.800 greeing this interview. Alan R. 74 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:57.520 Warren, Thanks very much for having me. It's pleasure. 75 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:01.719 Thank you very much. You've brought us an even more 76 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:08.560 fascinating author than typically. This is one we mentioned just 77 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:11.719 when we spoke. I had not heard of this killer, 78 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:13.840 at least I did not know the details at all. 79 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:22.000 This is incredible. Let's talk about why you wanted to 80 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:24.800 cover this case. What was it how you came to 81 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:25.720 write The Killing Game. 82 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:34.360 Well, someone actually sent me information about it, and I 83 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:36.920 was sort of like you. I had heard little bits, 84 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:41.519 but didn't really know that much about what he was 85 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:45.680 doing or what he had done. So and I started 86 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:49.720 to look into it. It started to really intrigue me 87 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:53.560 because there was so many, so many points to this. 88 00:04:54.199 --> 00:04:58.000 As you know you've been through it now, it kind 89 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.160 of was overwhelming, and there's so many parts to the story. 90 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:07.120 I love writing books in this area because I want 91 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:10.120 this to be brought to an attention of the public, 92 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.519 which is something that I again I didn't know why. 93 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:19.000 It wasn't he like he was a real serial killer, 94 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:23.000 a mass murderer, And it's something you don't really hear about. 95 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:27.480 Now as you write in a book. He was born 96 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:33.240 Rodrigo Alcala Buquar in San Antonio, Texas, in nineteen forty three. 97 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:36.839 He had three siblings, and his parents and his grandmother 98 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:41.600 her mother. They lived together and religion was very important. 99 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:44.319 And you say, in nineteen fifty one, the grandmother took 100 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.120 ill and they decided to move back to Mexico so 101 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:51.079 she could be where she grew up. And you say, 102 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:54.600 after two years she died, and then the father took 103 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:58.000 off back to the US. Now you talk about his 104 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:02.519 move back to Los Angeles. Tell about what the circumstances 105 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:05.879 were that Rodney's mother had to move back to Los Angeles, 106 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:10.399 and tell us a little bit about his personality and 107 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:13.399 his experiences in high school in Los Angeles. 108 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:19.480 Well, it seemed like when they were in Mexico, when 109 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:24.759 his father left them, they didn't really have an intention 110 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:29.560 of getting back together like the parents. And I'm not 111 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:34.839 exactly sure why they stayed together as a couple but 112 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.319 lived apart. I couldn't really get a good answer on that. 113 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.319 But when they did decide to move back to la 114 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:49.240 he was actually a popular kid, did pretty well in school, 115 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:55.600 gone along pretty good with the siblings, and had friends 116 00:06:55.639 --> 00:07:02.199 and dated girls, and no real issue there. He did 117 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:05.399 all the things that you know, good family did. They 118 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:11.879 would go to the park, go to the zoo, just everything. 119 00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:16.360 I just I see nothing unusual other than the father 120 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:21.800 leaving the mother. But that's that's something that's pretty common nowadays. 121 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:29.920 So again you would think he was okay, you know. 122 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:32.439 So the childhood up to that was pretty good. 123 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:37.040 Now you talk about in nineteen sixty one, he joins 124 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:39.519 the US Army in North Carolina, and so we see 125 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:44.279 some inkling of the future here, and he's a paratrooper, 126 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:46.959 So tell us what happens in the army. There's some 127 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:51.519 interesting events while his he stays in the military. 128 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:54.920 Yeah, and that was sort of the first sign of 129 00:07:54.920 --> 00:08:00.639 any issues with his mental condition because he was nineteen 130 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:03.639 when he joined. He wanted to be a paratrooper. And 131 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.639 he went to North Carolina and he worked as a 132 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:11.639 clerk with the army and things seemed to be going 133 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:16.000 okay the first year. Just into nineteen sixty two, his 134 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:21.600 father died and he came home for the funeral. Everything 135 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:25.680 went as usual, the family came to the funeral, everything 136 00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:30.199 was fine, as good as can be expected. Then he 137 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:33.519 went back to work for the army. He went back 138 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:40.039 to Carolina and was doing his job as usual. And 139 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:47.120 then sometime in nineteen sixty three, late sixty two, his 140 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:50.879 mother was home in La cooking and all of a sudden, 141 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:57.399 Rodney turned up at the door and she was totally 142 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:01.360 shocked and what are you doing here? And he said, well, 143 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:08.360 I went able I left. And she was like just traumatized, 144 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:10.639 and she kind of thought, well, you have to turn 145 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:12.840 yourself in. And it took her two days to get 146 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:16.879 her son to go. So she basically turned him in. 147 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:22.000 And so what they did was they set him up 148 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:27.679 for a routine, you know, psych evaluation and a few 149 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:32.480 other things, and that's when they decided they actually discharged 150 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:38.080 him and diagnosed him with antisocial personality disorder. It was 151 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:42.080 just like it seemed like out of the blue, because 152 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:45.879 up to then, everybody thought he was doing fine. But 153 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:48.080 one thing that his mother didn't know was when he 154 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:54.039 went back after the funeral, his lead officer started to 155 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:57.960 put in reports that, you know, before the funeral, he's 156 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:03.000 very organized, a very efficient, a very good person to 157 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:06.960 have on the team. After he was, you know, he 158 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:10.039 would just be a mess. He was not doing a 159 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:13.559 very good job. He would late all the time, he 160 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:17.960 was inefficient, he didn't seem to care. And I guess 161 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:19.759 they give him a little bit of time to see 162 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:23.919 if they could pull him out of his I guess depression, 163 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:29.080 but it just never happened and he just left. 164 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:36.960 Yeah, you fast forward to September twenty fifth, or at 165 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:40.159 least we will the September twenty fifth, nineteen sixty eight, 166 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:43.840 in Los Angeles, and a motorist calls police to report 167 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:48.399 seeing Rodney. You're an eight year old girl, Tally Shapiro 168 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:52.879 into his Hollywood apartment. So tell us what this motorist. 169 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:55.600 You call him a good Samaritan, But it's just a 170 00:10:55.639 --> 00:10:59.480 citizen doing what he thinks is right and having those 171 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:02.440 great instant so tell us what happens. 172 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:04.879 Yeah, you know, I kind of went down the good 173 00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:09.039 Samaritan because this is nineteen sixty eight and this is 174 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:14.559 a lot more of an innocent time. And so him, 175 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:17.039 you know, him picking up an eight year old girl 176 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:22.919 and in the car in Hollywood, you wouldn't necessarily be suspicious, 177 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:27.200 but for some reason he was, and so he decided 178 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:30.480 to follow them. They followed. He followed them back to 179 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.679 Rodney's place and he saw them go into the building 180 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:40.759 and he felt it was really suspicious, you know, so 181 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:42.919 he went picked up the he went to a payphone, 182 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:46.639 you know, something that we used to have back then, 183 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.879 and he and he called the police and said, this 184 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:53.879 is something going on. So the police decided to send 185 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:55.799 a couple of people to check it out, and that 186 00:11:55.960 --> 00:12:00.960 was Camacho was one guy, and he did most of 187 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.799 the talking about it. And he said they approached the door, 188 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:06.519 knocked on the door and just wanted to do a check, 189 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:10.440 and he eventually opened and that's when they saw her 190 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:15.480 all covered in blood and laying on the on the floor. 191 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:18.159 So of course they pushed the door in and ran 192 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:22.000 over to her. They they actually thought she was dead 193 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:28.320 when they first saw her, and she actually moved and 194 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.919 let out a little cough, so they were right away, 195 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:36.639 of course, were concerned with her. But what happened was 196 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:39.840 Rodney just went out the back door. He just escaped, 197 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:44.559 so you know, he got away with it, and he 198 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:49.919 had he had raped her twice and beat her. She 199 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:53.759 did survive, but you know, she was an eight year old, 200 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.080 and what he had done was he'd actually picked her 201 00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:00.480 up when she was walking along the street in West 202 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:04.840 Hollywood heading to school, and he promised it he would 203 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:08.759 you take her to school. And then he had told 204 00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:11.240 her he had to stop at his place because he 205 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:15.200 had to pick up something. And so that's where it 206 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:19.720 all happened. And so now I have to say afterwards, 207 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:24.080 what happened was her family decided to move away from 208 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:27.639 the States. They didn't want to live in the US anymore. 209 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.399 It was too violent, and so they went back to Mexico. 210 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:36.159 Yeah, I just wanted to make sure everybody in the 211 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:39.120 audience realizes that too, she wasn't dead, even though they 212 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:43.200 realized she was dead. And while while he ran out 213 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.720 the back she came back to life. So miraculous recovery. 214 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:50.080 But like you say, the family would not have anything 215 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:53.279 to do with it, and that would impact this trial potentially, 216 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.200 wouldn't it, Because he used to say this would necessitate 217 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:00.600 some sort of plea agreement. And so they also, you say, 218 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.080 they found a picture idea of Alkalis, so they knew 219 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:06.720 who they were looking for. And so he was on 220 00:14:06.759 --> 00:14:08.360 the run, wasn't he. 221 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:11.919 Yeah, exactly, They knew exactly who he was, and they knew, 222 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:16.759 you know, what had happened, and they and so, but 223 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:23.039 he took off. He went to New York originally and 224 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:26.639 was kind of hiding out, and it actually took them 225 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:30.840 almost three years to locate him and arrest him. So 226 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:33.200 you know, he was out for a while. 227 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:38.399 Yes, you talk about that. He was. In nineteen sixty nine, 228 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:42.519 FBI put him on the its most wanted list. And 229 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:46.759 then just in August seventy one, a couple of campers, 230 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:50.559 again back to the old days, used to put wanted 231 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:55.679 posters at the again kind of an outdated thing post office. 232 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:58.720 And so they were at the post office for some 233 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:02.559 unusual reason and they looked at these want posters and 234 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:06.200 they said, hey, this looks like our camp counselor mister Burger. 235 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:10.480 Take it from there. What happens as a result of 236 00:15:10.519 --> 00:15:12.879 them recognizing mister Burger. 237 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.039 Yeah, because what had happened was he when he went 238 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:20.039 to New York, he actually got a job for the 239 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:26.759 summer working as a camp counselor. So he was an 240 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:32.559 all girls' school drama counselor, and it was the one 241 00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:37.200 Direction group, which of course pretty much focuses on age 242 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:42.480 nine to eleven girls, so he was their counselor and 243 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:46.000 he had been working every summer. Actually, two of the 244 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:49.039 girls that went to the that were camping and went 245 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.000 to the post office and they got stuck there because 246 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:54.000 it was pouring rain, and that's when they saw the 247 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:57.159 picture and they thought, well, that looks like him, but 248 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:00.639 it couldn't be. And when they went back to the camp, 249 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:04.679 they told the dean and he kind of brushed it off, 250 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:08.679 but inside he was suspicious. So he went to the 251 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:11.600 post office himself and decided he was going to look 252 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:14.399 at this picture. And he spent a lot of time there, 253 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:17.120 he said, somewhere from forty five minutes to an hour 254 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:21.480 just looking at the picture and trying to figure if 255 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:24.960 it was him or not. And he was suspicious enough 256 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.039 that what he did was he called the number, the 257 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:31.440 FBI number on the most wanted list, and they told 258 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:35.320 him to say nothing and they would check it out, basically, 259 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:38.039 So he went back to the camp said nothing. The 260 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:41.120 next day they showed up and they actually run his 261 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:46.320 prints and it was Rodney A. Kella. So they called 262 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:49.960 the LA Police Detectives that was in charge. And of 263 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.759 course this is what really helped with the case as well, 264 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:57.519 because it was Steve Odell and I just had his number, 265 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:00.320 and of course we've talked to him several times about 266 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:04.160 other cases and his own family and Black Daly, I remember, 267 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:06.920 and and so I called him and said, well, tell 268 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:11.839 me what you know. And he was flown over to 269 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:16.039 pick a Colla up and when he was bringing him back, 270 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:20.039 even the unusual thing he said to him was saying, well, 271 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:23.440 why did you do this or tell me about about 272 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:28.559 the case? And Rodney turned around and said, I don't 273 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:31.119 really want to talk about that. Was that was Rodney 274 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:33.759 who I don't want to talk about him as if 275 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:36.759 he was a third person. So he only was he 276 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:40.240 using that other identity of John Berger. He seemed to 277 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:46.000 be believing he was that other person, John Berger. So 278 00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:48.680 that that was kind of a little bit unusual for Steve, 279 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:53.000 you know, was he just setting up something to be 280 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:58.240 considered infane. Was he doing this on purpose or did 281 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:02.480 he really believe it? And of course Steve didn't believe 282 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.759 him at all. He just uh he he just in 283 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:10.559 his opinion. Uh, this guy was was just putting on 284 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:15.599 a show. He was just pretending. So they took him 285 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:19.519 back and he uh but you see that's where it 286 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:23.880 comes into where Talley and her family left and uh 287 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:28.160 so they had nobody to testify against him, and they 288 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:31.400 couldn't get them to come back. So he ended up 289 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:35.000 taking a plea for this and it was a three 290 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:39.319 year sentence for contributing to a minor you know, in 291 00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:41.240 in that in those days, that was kind of like 292 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:45.559 a molesting charge of a child. And he was let 293 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:50.880 out within without within one year, right, so you know 294 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:53.920 it was it was it's pretty uh it's really the 295 00:18:53.960 --> 00:19:01.359 start of of of his career killing and it just continued. 296 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.759 He had the luck of the Irish. Just incredible. 297 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.839 Also, I thought was really ironic, and we talked about 298 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:13.880 it in an introduction is again somebody and another infamous 299 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:17.720 character is that he's he's a really good student and 300 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:23.960 he's he's working under taking he's taking film under Roman Polanski, 301 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:27.079 so another irons. 302 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:30.279 Actually, I have to say he actually graduated from the 303 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:34.920 Arts Arts College there in la with honors. And when 304 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:39.599 he was admitted into NYU to be in Polanski's class, 305 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:43.720 he was easily accepted. And you've got to you know, 306 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:47.240 they had seven hundred people apply for Roman Polanski's class 307 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:52.000 and only accept it maybe seventy. And he was he 308 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:55.279 was taken in. So he was he was very good 309 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.000 at at his at his photography, and he must have 310 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:03.599 been a very good student in the class itself, no 311 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:07.079 issues at all, So he wasn't dumb and he was 312 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:09.880 very good at what he did. He must have had 313 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:15.000 some sort of how do you say, talent for taking pictures. 314 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:21.039 Well, obviously that contributes in this story too dramatically. Also 315 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.359 talk about that he was at film school and doing 316 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.799 really well, but all of a sudden he's getting a 317 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:29.960 job in New Hampshire and they said, well that was 318 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:31.960 you say that it was out a character for him 319 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.519 at that time, but likely it was the murder of 320 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:40.000 Cornelia Michelle Crilly And we'll explain a little bit more 321 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:42.920 about that as we talk about the book and more 322 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.559 in depth. This is a flight attendant raped and strangled 323 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:51.279 in Manhattan in June nineteen seventy one. So you talk 324 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:56.319 about now that with this interview with Hodell, and he 325 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:00.359 doesn't believe him, and they can't get the girl to 326 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.640 come back because a family moved to Mexico. He gets 327 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.039 to two point five years or you say, pardon me, 328 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:10.000 he's out in the year. What does he do next? 329 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.279 What's his next job and what's his next crime? 330 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.880 Well, yeah, because so he actually got a job with 331 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:22.319 the La Times as a typesetter originally, and then that 332 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:26.720 was really unusual because later on when he is getting 333 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:32.000 arrested later years later, that's when the La Times didn't 334 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.680 even run a check on him. They just hired him. 335 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:37.480 And so they had no idea because at this time, 336 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:40.119 because you remember he was he was convicted of this 337 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:44.079 child molesting and in jail for a year and got 338 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:47.440 out on probation. So he's on probation, they had no 339 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:51.039 idea that that's who it was, like they which is 340 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:55.599 kind of really strange. I thought a strange irony there, 341 00:21:55.640 --> 00:22:01.480 because you've got La Times, you know, hires them, and 342 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:06.319 he's not even they didn't even know. And so but 343 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:10.039 another thing is why I say, was he had a 344 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:13.279 lot of charisma. He must have had the looks that 345 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:16.480 people liked at the time, and he had a way 346 00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:21.920 of doing things because he walks into his probation officer 347 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.759 and says he wants to travel to New York and 348 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:31.880 they say, yeah, go ahead. So he would fly to 349 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:36.799 New York and he would attack, rape and kill someone 350 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:42.079 and come back. And he was doing this several times 351 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:46.279 years later, and just something we kind of put together 352 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:50.160 when we were finishing the book was really the thought 353 00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.599 that what he was doing was going to different cities. 354 00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:57.640 So he would pick New York because there was a 355 00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:01.160 mass killing going on. He would go to Seattle and 356 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:06.160 kill kill girls while the Hillside Strangler was there. He 357 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:09.240 would go to Boston. He was picking cities that were 358 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:13.240 there was some sort of serial killing going on that 359 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:16.480 was making the news that was really popular. And I 360 00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:19.640 didn't get that initially when I was putting the book together. 361 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.319 It was something we kind of put together later because 362 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:26.519 of all the hits on his DNA in all these 363 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.440 cities now, and so he was doing this on purpose 364 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.880 in his own mind. He was kind of picking places 365 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:38.359 that were in the news already for somebody, like you know, 366 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:44.720 like the Boston strangler, or the Hillside and the the 367 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.559 New York killer at the time, it's slipping my mind. 368 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:52.319 So he yeah, but he was picking things that were 369 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:53.680 making the news. 370 00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:01.279 Now you include some other and we've got to not 371 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.880 bogged down on any one particular crime because it's just 372 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.599 there are so many and this is such a complex 373 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:10.319 story and he's such a complex criminal. But you do 374 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:14.319 include this nineteen seventy five attack on Hunting Beach just 375 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:19.799 the demonstrative to show his mo and how he operated. 376 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:22.519 So can you tell us about this the girl that's 377 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:25.160 waiting for the school bus and some of the things 378 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:27.400 that he does to try to lure her, and you 379 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.880 talk about Julie Johnson as well. Tell us a little 380 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.200 bit about what he's doing in nineteen seventy five and 381 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:35.640 his method of operation. 382 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:40.200 Well, in general, he was he had two different kind 383 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:42.640 of themes, but the main one, I think, the one 384 00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:46.359 you're talking about, is when he would he would either 385 00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:49.640 drive up to them and say, hey, I know your parents, 386 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.440 or did you need a ride to school? Or he 387 00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:58.240 would tell them he was a photographer and he was 388 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.720 in a contest take pictures, and he would pick what 389 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.519 they were doing. If they were girls, roller skating or whatever, 390 00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:08.559 and he would say, I need to take pictures of 391 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:12.640 girls on skates and you could win and we could win, 392 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:15.400 and that kind of theme was what he was doing. 393 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:19.400 And some would run away and some would say sure, 394 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.640 some would let him take pictures, and some like the 395 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.279 thirty Julie Johnson, he would take to a park and 396 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:30.319 then start taking pictures, and he would give them a 397 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:34.000 joint of pot kind of loosen them up. Then he 398 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:35.920 would sort of tell them all, we should do one 399 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:37.920 without a top, you know, and that sort of thing. 400 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:41.319 And sometimes he would take them back to his house 401 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:46.359