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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 2: Killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about him. Gaesy Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 2: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 4: Good Evening. Stephen B. Small died in one of the
Speaker 4: most terrific ways a person can die, being buried alive.
Speaker 4: He was one of the richest men in Kankakee, Illinois,
Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty seven, which made him the target of
Speaker 4: a desperate cocaine dealer who wanted to collect a million
Speaker 4: dollar ransom. Everything went tragically wrong. Danny Edwards was caught, convicted,
Speaker 4: and was sentenced to death. His life was spared after
Speaker 4: all death sentences were commuted to life in prison by
Speaker 4: Governor George Ryan. A conviction of Danny Edwards was a
Speaker 4: sure thing. However, political pressure the Small family was at
Speaker 4: the top of kankkin Key's powerful elite, brought in the
Speaker 4: top prosecutors in the state so that they could use
Speaker 4: Edward's case against his girlfriend, Nancy Rish. Their case against
Speaker 4: her was flimsy at best. Every piece of forensic evidence
Speaker 4: at the trial cleared Nancy Rish. Not one piece of
Speaker 4: evidence and not one witness testimony proved her guilt, but
Speaker 4: she was convicted on the conjecture and false assertions of
Speaker 4: the prosecutors. There was no more evidence against her than
Speaker 4: the supposition that she had to know what Edwards was planning.
Speaker 4: Every public defender and lawyer refused to defend her because
Speaker 4: of alleged conflict or fear of the local powers. Everything
Speaker 4: was set up to railroad this woman into prison. She
Speaker 4: did not get a fair trial. She didn't stand a chance.
Speaker 4: If Danny Edwards had picked any other victim, his girlfriend
Speaker 4: never would have been prosecuted. Nancy Rish got small justice.
Speaker 4: Nancy Rish is innocent. Danny Edwards did not cooperate with
Speaker 4: the police, and he never talked about the details of
Speaker 4: his crime until now. Danny Edwards and Nancy Rish have
Speaker 4: given their first in depth interviews from prison to author
Speaker 4: Jim Ridings for this book. The incredible story and previously
Speaker 4: unknown background details are told here for the first time.
Speaker 4: This is not just the story of a sensational kidnapping
Speaker 4: and murder, is also the story of how a corrupt
Speaker 4: system was able to convict an innocent woman and send
Speaker 4: her to prison for life. The book that were featuring
Speaker 4: This evening is Small Justice with my special guest journalist
Speaker 4: and author Jim Ridings. Welcome back to the program. Thank
Speaker 4: you very much for this interview. Jim Ridings, Thank you, Dan,
Speaker 4: thank you so much for this interview. Let's start off
Speaker 4: with introducing Steven Small and the Small family and what
Speaker 4: is their importance in kanka Key, Illinois.
Speaker 5: Well, all has happened in Kanka Key, which is a
Speaker 5: city of about twenty seven thousand people about an hour
Speaker 5: south of Chicago. The Small family has been the most
Speaker 5: prominent family in Kanka Kee for more about one hundred years.
Speaker 5: Stephen Small's great grandfather was Len Small, who was governor
Speaker 5: of Illinois for eight years in nineteen twenty. He was
Speaker 5: the most corrupt politician the state had ever seen. Connected
Speaker 5: to Clamho, connected to Alcopoon, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 5: The family used the bill gotten games to buy farm
Speaker 5: and newspapers, radio stations. They owned the daily paper in
Speaker 5: kanka Keek. Stephen Small, as I said, is the great grandson.
Speaker 5: He was worth tens of millions.
Speaker 4: All the Small part.
Speaker 5: This may him a target or somebody who wanted to kidnap.
Speaker 4: Now, speaking of that, let's introduce Danny Edwards and what
Speaker 4: were his criminal charges in April nineteen eighty seven, conditions
Speaker 4: of his sentence, and the arrangement he had with authorities
Speaker 4: as a result.
Speaker 5: Danny Edwards was a longtime drug dealer. He had been
Speaker 5: busted in early nineteen eighty seven. He faced after thirty
Speaker 5: years in prison, but the authorities wanted to get a
Speaker 5: higher up drug dealer. They focused on somebody named Mitch Levitt.
Speaker 5: They made a deal with Danny. They say, we'll give
Speaker 5: you probation if you help us bust Levitt, if you
Speaker 5: give us the name of a number of customers, and
Speaker 5: if you help us side out who was leaking information
Speaker 5: from the courthouse. Danny did give them the names of
Speaker 5: eighteen people and what they bought. He agreed to set
Speaker 5: up Mitch Levitt. They met at a place near Chicago
Speaker 5: where Danny was supposed to buy a certain amount of cocaine.
Speaker 5: To Levitt, was was smart. He knew that something was up.
Speaker 5: Danny had a cut on his face and Mitch thought
Speaker 5: maybe the police had gotten him and beat him up
Speaker 5: a little bit. And Danny also had undercover policeman waiting
Speaker 5: outside in the car, so Levitt wouldn't deal with them
Speaker 5: he just walked out. Well, Danny failed to set the
Speaker 5: guy up, but they still gave him probation anyway, because
Speaker 5: that was part of the deal. They kept to the deal,
Speaker 5: but Danny wasn't going to deal any more drugs for
Speaker 5: a while because he knew he was going to go
Speaker 5: away for a long time and he got caught. So
Speaker 5: he decided to that he would kidnap mister Small, one
Speaker 5: of the wealthiest men in Yanky Tee and most politically
Speaker 5: powerful men. He would kidnap him to hold him for
Speaker 5: a million dollar grants. He spent months working on this plan.
Speaker 5: It didn't have much thought to it. He got some
Speaker 5: wood and he started building a flywood box. The attention
Speaker 5: was that he was going to go out to the
Speaker 5: sand hill, the wooded sand hill outside of town, dig
Speaker 5: a hole and put the box in, kidnapped mistress Ball
Speaker 5: and take him out and put him in the box
Speaker 5: and cover it up and then make some make some calls.
Speaker 5: And that's what he did.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about Nancy Rish and her relationship with Danny Edwards.
Speaker 4: Tell us the living situation at this time in September
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty seven. But tell us go backwards and tell
Speaker 4: us a little bit about the relationship and how you
Speaker 4: would characterize it, and tell us a little bit more
Speaker 4: about Nancy Rish Well.
Speaker 5: Danny and Nancy had met in the bar and he
Speaker 5: pursued her. She held him off for a while, but
Speaker 5: eventually eventually she gave them. Danny ended up divorcing his
Speaker 5: wife and Danny and Nancy moved in, but they had
Speaker 5: problems and they were not exactly getting along, so Danny.
Speaker 5: After the drug bust, Danny set Nancy up in the
Speaker 5: townhouse and he continued to live in the house where
Speaker 5: they had lived. Because he had no more money coming
Speaker 5: in drug deal, he could afford to pay for both late.
Speaker 5: So since he was paying for Nancy's townhouse, he told
Speaker 5: her he wanted to move in. She could hardly say
Speaker 5: no that he was he was paying the bill, so
Speaker 5: he moved in.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about this kidnapping that you talked about that
Speaker 4: Danny Edwards had planned, maybe not planned so well or
Speaker 4: but he had planned this for many, many months. He
Speaker 4: built the box with the assistant of Nancy's cousin, who
Speaker 4: he was at least pretending to work for once in
Speaker 4: a while. But he had much in terms of skills.
Speaker 4: But you talk about September second, nineteen eighty seven, which
Speaker 4: was a Wednesday, and Stephen Small was asleep with his
Speaker 4: wife Nancy when the phone rang at twelve thirty am.
Speaker 4: Their fifteen year old son Ramsey answered the phone. Tell
Speaker 4: us about this phone call.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this was just after midnight, the son answered the phone.
Speaker 5: Man on the phone said that this is Officer so
Speaker 5: and so. That can't be police department. There's been a
Speaker 5: buglary at your father's place of business. He needs to
Speaker 5: come down. The son said, is this important. They've gone
Speaker 5: to bed. He said, yes, this is important. I need
Speaker 5: to talk. The son put Stephen on the line and
Speaker 5: the man on the phone said, this is a department.
Speaker 5: You need to come down here and the sear of
Speaker 5: the building and identify the item stolen. So mister Small
Speaker 5: got dressed and he went outside. He opened the garage.
Speaker 5: He got in his Mercedes. The man on the phone
Speaker 5: was not a policeman. It was Danny Edward. He was
Speaker 5: posing as a policeman to get mister Fall to come
Speaker 5: out of the house. When mister Small got in the car,
Speaker 5: Danny got on the other side, pointed a gun at
Speaker 5: him and said let's go. So add mister Small drive
Speaker 5: out of town to this wooded area in the sandhill.
Speaker 5: He forced mister Small to make a tape recording telling
Speaker 5: his wife that he'd been kidnapped and they wanted money.
Speaker 4: These are the.
Speaker 5: Instruction and so on and so forth. Then after he
Speaker 5: made the tape, Danny Edwards forced mister Small into the
Speaker 5: wooden box to the end the ground. He then the
Speaker 5: lid on the box and covered it with sand. Then
Speaker 5: Danny went. He ran maybe a half mile or a
Speaker 5: mile or shelf to a point where he had told
Speaker 5: Nancy to pick him up at a certain time, and
Speaker 5: then he went home.
Speaker 4: Now tell us about what happens at the Small residence
Speaker 4: and the phone call they received and its contents.
Speaker 5: Well, he had gotten mister Small out of the house
Speaker 5: after midnight, about three thirty am, Danny called the Small
Speaker 5: house and talked to missus Small and said, we have
Speaker 5: your husband. We've kidnapped him. We want a million dollars
Speaker 5: and I will call you and let you know about
Speaker 5: the detail. Well, she called family member and they called
Speaker 5: with their lawyer, and they called the police. And since
Speaker 5: it was a kidnapping, the FBI was called, and the
Speaker 5: FBI came to the house, and they set up surveillance,
Speaker 5: and they set up a wire camp in case Edwards
Speaker 5: would call back again.
Speaker 4: Now, what were the We just didn't mention this, but
Speaker 4: this box that he was placed in and in sand
Speaker 4: give us more about theccommodations that were made by Danny
Speaker 4: Edwards when he put Steven Small in this box and
Speaker 4: what he told them in terms of when he likely
Speaker 4: would be out of this box, and what he did
Speaker 4: he provide.
Speaker 5: It was quite a large box. It was not well
Speaker 5: made because he didn't have any kind of a skill,
Speaker 5: and it took him weeks. Anybody else could have made
Speaker 5: the box could have nailed it back up in two
Speaker 5: days less, it took Danny weeks. And even so it
Speaker 5: wasn't a well made. He had a light in the
Speaker 5: box hooked up to a car battery. He had some
Speaker 5: candy bars. He filled an old milk jug with cap water,
Speaker 5: and he told mister Small the pipe coming out of
Speaker 5: the side of the box would provide enough air for
Speaker 5: two days. I guess mister Small believed him. This got
Speaker 5: in the box, he would put the fight and then
Speaker 5: Danny covered up the box and he left what he
Speaker 5: called at three thirty. All this was set in motion,
Speaker 5: and he said he would call back that afternoon. He
Speaker 5: did call back about five pm, and he went to
Speaker 5: a nearby town and he paid well. The FBI had
Speaker 5: a PAF on the phone, so they were able to
Speaker 5: tell where the phone call was coming from. And Danny
Speaker 5: said he would call back again that evening, and he did.
Speaker 5: The FBI staked out that phone call. So this town
Speaker 5: is so small it only had three payphones in the
Speaker 5: whole town, and this was a time when payphones were
Speaker 5: all over the cliffs. The FBI staked out the payphone
Speaker 5: thinking that hoping that he was dumb enough to come
Speaker 5: back and use the same phone. Well, he wants dumb
Speaker 5: enough to come back, and he used one of the
Speaker 5: other papons, so they for some reason, he had Nancy
Speaker 5: and drive him to all of these call livingly, I
Speaker 5: asked him, why, Peter Lump, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 5: I just wasn't thinking.
Speaker 4: What were the directions that he gave to a horrified
Speaker 4: and confused Nancy Malls in terms of for the ransom
Speaker 4: and regarding the police and denominations of money, give us
Speaker 4: all the details that she could hear. And was there
Speaker 4: some issue with the quality of the tape recording.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he told her small than I domination non executive
Speaker 5: started giving directions of where to take the money, but
Speaker 5: it was so confused and so garbled that she couldn't
Speaker 5: quite understand it. But it didn't matter, because it just
Speaker 5: didn't happen. This was the five to five PM phone call,
Speaker 5: and the FBI got the license, played off the car,
Speaker 5: and by the time Danny got back to his house,
Speaker 5: the police were already taking out his townhouse because they
Speaker 5: knew the name and the address from getting a license.
Speaker 5: But later that evening, it's an eleven thirty. He called
Speaker 5: back and again he went to the same same payphone,
Speaker 5: and he made some more more demands. Now, one thing
Speaker 5: about paypones. In those days, some payphones were not phone boosts.
Speaker 5: They were standalone phones on a pole, and you could
Speaker 5: drive up to the phone and reach out the car
Speaker 5: window and make a phone call while sitting in the car.
Speaker 5: Nancy drove him to these things, but he didn't pull
Speaker 5: a payphone into the car. He had Nancy park ten
Speaker 5: feet away each time, and then he got out to
Speaker 5: use the payphone because she didn't know what was going on.
Speaker 5: He didn't want her to know what was going on,
Speaker 5: and this is substantiated by the FBI surveillance on the
Speaker 5: later ransom calls. He made out the paypalone. You know,
Speaker 5: they saw her part ten feet away, and they saw
Speaker 5: Danny get out. Kind of confusion, white, white, are you
Speaker 5: getting out? And use the phone from the car. Well,
Speaker 5: he didn't use the phone from the car because he
Speaker 5: didn't want Nancy to know what was happening.
Speaker 4: What did Nancy assume was happening? Given the reputation and
Speaker 4: character of her boyfriend.
Speaker 5: She might have assumed that maybe he was back into
Speaker 5: dirk room, but she didn't ask too many questions because
Speaker 5: he was physically abusive to her many times, and in fact,
Speaker 5: that week of the kidnapping, he was so jumping up tight.
Speaker 5: She asked him, what's going on that with you, lord?
Speaker 5: I've than usual. He pulled out a gun, put it
Speaker 5: to her head and said, if you don't stop asking questions,
Speaker 5: I'm going to blow your head off. Then I'm going
Speaker 5: to go upstairs and blow your son's head off. She
Speaker 5: didn't ask any more questions after.
Speaker 4: Tell us about the arrest, the circumstances, and then before
Speaker 4: we talk about out them both being arrested and then
Speaker 4: brought in for questioning.
Speaker 5: Well, the police knew who they were and where they
Speaker 5: lived the day of the kidnapping because they had taped home,
Speaker 5: but they didn't want to move in on them because
Speaker 5: they thought it might endanger mister Small's life. So they
Speaker 5: let it go for about two days and they finally decided,
Speaker 5: you know, enough times gone by, we're moving it. So
Speaker 5: they raided the apartment with guns drawn and took Danny
Speaker 5: and Nancy and to her loose state for questions. Danny
Speaker 5: wasn't saying anything. He wasn't in a talkow. Nancy cooperated
Speaker 5: because she didn't know what the heck was going on.
Speaker 5: She was questioned for four days, thirteen hours over four days,
Speaker 5: and there's not much she could have told them because
Speaker 5: she didn't know anything. You know, kidnapping, what are you
Speaker 5: talking about? They asked her a few questions about the
Speaker 5: whereabox and then they're kidnapping and you know the tape
Speaker 5: recordy that Danny had mister Small news have you ever
Speaker 5: seen that? And she said no, no, you know she
Speaker 5: did because she was scared, he was confused. And that
Speaker 5: time she's still covering up for Danny that she didn't
Speaker 5: know what the situation was.
Speaker 4: She was trying to cooperate, did she what did she
Speaker 4: establish for the police?
Speaker 5: According to her, Well, she finally told exactly what happened
Speaker 5: as far as Danny making her drive, these paypon and
Speaker 5: the whole week the kidnapping. Danny was all up tight
Speaker 5: about this and that, and she acted normal. You know,
Speaker 5: she took the dog to the bad she went to
Speaker 5: her peewee's football game, She helped the friends do this
Speaker 5: and that, and they all didn't acting normal. You know,
Speaker 5: she wouldn't be acting normal if she knew what was
Speaker 5: going on.
Speaker 4: So what happens in terms of Danny Edwards doesn't want
Speaker 4: to talk. They have a bunch of really damning evidence
Speaker 4: against him, including witnesses. What do they have in terms
Speaker 4: of real hard evidence against Danny Edwards? And what is
Speaker 4: the prosecution's plan Before we talk about Nancy Risch and
Speaker 4: the prosecution's plan for her.
Speaker 5: When Danny had been arrested, you know, they were searching
Speaker 5: all over the place at the time when mister Small
Speaker 5: might be held, especially this is the Mercedes was in
Speaker 5: some place. Well, they found the Mercedes and Danny heard
Speaker 5: them talking. I think they were talking out purposely. He
Speaker 5: would hear them once he knew they found the car,
Speaker 5: he knew they would find find the burial site. So
Speaker 5: that's when he started cooperating. He said, okay, I'll take
Speaker 5: you to where he is. I don't know, and you
Speaker 5: know we'll dig them up. He could be okay, So
Speaker 5: he took the police out to the burial site. Now
Speaker 5: by this time Danny knew mister Smalls dead because he
Speaker 5: had he invaded the cops and the FBI tail who
Speaker 5: got in the motorcycle. He invaded the tail and went
Speaker 5: out to the burial site and he yelled into the
Speaker 5: pipe mister Small. He said, there's no answer, so I
Speaker 5: knew he was dead. Well, anyway, he took he took
Speaker 5: the cops out to the burial site, thinking that he
Speaker 5: can save mister s Paul's life. And you know, they
Speaker 5: dug it up and mister Small is dead. And he
Speaker 5: acted like, oh no, I can't believe, but he already.
Speaker 4: Knew he did.
Speaker 5: So that was the end of any cooperation.
Speaker 4: What does prosecution summarize in terms of initially the way
Speaker 4: they're going to prosecute.
Speaker 5: Him, Well, they had all the evidence they needed. They
Speaker 5: had his shoes which had sand on them, they had
Speaker 5: the fingerprint on the box. He was the one who
Speaker 5: took them to the box. They had in their tight
Speaker 5: case against them, so convicting him was easy.
Speaker 4: Nancy risis is charged with similar charges. Why does the
Speaker 4: what's the idea for prosecution? What do they believe she's
Speaker 4: actually guilty of? And tell us about how our lawyer
Speaker 4: severs the case for her benefit between her and her boyfriend.
Speaker 5: She had a separate trial, which was should have been
Speaker 5: a good thing. In her trial which came after Danny,
Speaker 5: they used every bit of evidence they had against Danny
Speaker 5: against Nancy, which was false because all of this pointed
Speaker 5: to what Danny did, didn't point to anything within. The
Speaker 5: whole case was based on lives and conjectures and German.
Speaker 5: For Carlo, the prosecutors went to college theatrics before he
Speaker 5: went to law school, because he said in an interview
Speaker 5: in a mague, he said he wanted to be able
Speaker 5: to put on the dramatic show in the courtroom, and
Speaker 5: he did. He told so many lines. He said that
Speaker 5: witnesses in the store said that Danny and Nancy bull
Speaker 5: squat Yellen of distilled water views in the box. Well,
Speaker 5: the water in the box was tap water. In an
Speaker 5: old milk jock and it was not even introduced as evidence.
Speaker 5: He just said it and so many other things. He's
Speaker 5: a plastic tie that Danny bought. He bought for something
Speaker 5: he was doing at home and had nothing to do
Speaker 5: with the kidnapped. He didn't use the plantic tige and
Speaker 5: mister Small handcuffed for Carlo, said these were used in
Speaker 5: the kidnapping. The judge said, no, you can't say that,
Speaker 5: you can't introduce it. He said it anyway, and then
Speaker 5: he got a receipt from the store for the Twiss
Speaker 5: guys that had Danny and Nancy's name on it. Well,
Speaker 5: much later in the appeal nance, the lawyer went to
Speaker 5: the store, he got the receipt and there was no name.
Speaker 5: So it was just one lie after another, he would
Speaker 5: say in the summer to the jury, he would say
Speaker 5: such and such witness testify that they saw Daniel want
Speaker 5: to buy a candy bar to the box. He look
Speaker 5: at the transcripts. They never said that, but he said
Speaker 5: he told the jury that they was one lie after another,
Speaker 5: and he was experiencing was dramatic, and Nancy had just
Speaker 5: about the worst lawyer, which is what the Small wanted.
Speaker 5: You know, every single public defender and every single attorney
Speaker 5: in Pink County would not take her case because they
Speaker 5: were afraid of the small So the judge as signed
Speaker 5: the worst lawyer in town. He had never tried a mind,
Speaker 5: so he got this experienced, dramatic guy against this weak attorney.
Speaker 5: And one of the jurors later said, no, if if
Speaker 5: Nancy had had for Carlo instead of the man he had,
Speaker 5: he might have gotten off.
Speaker 4: At Danny Edwards trial, we didn't talk about this, but
Speaker 4: his trial is different than hers in that he's eligible
Speaker 4: for the death penalty. Now, what does he say in
Speaker 4: all his statements and also what was said at his
Speaker 4: own trial in terms of Nancy's rishes, guilt aiding and
Speaker 4: abetting is what the prosecution claimed helping him in his crimes.
Speaker 5: Well, he didn't testify it at his own ground, so
Speaker 5: he didn't say anything. Yes, but did the police. He
Speaker 5: was he's trying to make all these excuses. He was saying, Mitch,
Speaker 5: he owed money to Mitchell Levit, so that's why he
Speaker 5: had to do this. He said, big, big drugs in
Speaker 5: Chicago were putting him up to it. He got some
Speaker 5: help from the black cowboys out in that part of
Speaker 5: the county, all the stuff to take some of the
Speaker 5: deals off of himself. The police didn't believe any of
Speaker 5: what he said, but the one thing he said from
Speaker 5: the beginning, from the time they got prested was Nancy
Speaker 5: had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 4: He kept saying that, let's use this as an opportunity
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Speaker 4: prosecution going for a death penalty in one of the prosecutors,
Speaker 4: the guy leading the charge is a guy named for Caro,
Speaker 4: and so his depiction of Danny Edwards is that this
Speaker 4: was no accident, that he would have intended to murder,
Speaker 4: even Small's. But he also includes in that instructions to
Speaker 4: the jury and or statements to the jury that Nancy
Speaker 4: Risch is aiding and a betting and an accomplice to
Speaker 4: all of these kidnapping and murder.
Speaker 5: I just don't know that he mentioned Nancy much at
Speaker 5: Danny drown It was all Danny did it. He planned it,
Speaker 5: he did this. The whole thing was sound. It's a
Speaker 5: different story at Nancy strown all of a sudden, Nancy
Speaker 5: did it, Nancy planned it, Nancy made the phone call,
Speaker 5: contrary to the evidence. You know, mister small Son told
Speaker 5: the police it was a man's voice in the phone,
Speaker 5: told the FBI it was a man's voice. He testified
Speaker 5: at both trials it was a man's voice on the phone.
Speaker 5: And now Pacara was saying Nancy made the call, and
Speaker 5: that he said that in a summary to the jury,
Speaker 5: and Nancy's lawyer was sewing up. He didn't object, which
Speaker 5: she should have. And because he didn't object, she could
Speaker 5: not use this as the point on the field.
Speaker 4: She testifies on her own behalf at her trial. Why
Speaker 4: does this not have some credibility?
Speaker 5: Well, Gildy, people usually don't testify in their own behalf.
Speaker 5: Nancy was not guilty, and she testified because she wanted
Speaker 5: to tell what she knew and what happened. However, she
Speaker 5: was a naive, twenty five year old young woman. If
Speaker 5: the car was a much older, experienced bulldog, and he
Speaker 5: bullied her in the stand per hour and beat her
Speaker 5: down and tried to get her to say things that
Speaker 5: didn't happen.
Speaker 4: We mentioned earlier that the Small family was involved in radio,
Speaker 4: broadcast and newspapers and were in controlling situations with a
Speaker 4: paper called The Daily Journal, I believe gene Alice Small.
Speaker 4: What was the media coverage like from the Smalls who
Speaker 4: controlled all the media.
Speaker 5: Well, the media attention was an intense, intense and it
Speaker 5: was almost close to being objective. But that point, I mean,
Speaker 5: they couldn't say, They couldn't say Nancy guilty until the
Speaker 5: jury said.
Speaker 4: It's a death penalty case, he was eligible. What was
Speaker 4: the verdict from the jury. Did it take long to
Speaker 4: get that verdict?
Speaker 5: Jury came back and I think it was eleven minutes
Speaker 5: and Danny and said Gilby defently with Nancy. It took
Speaker 5: a lot longer, but it came back Gilby. She was
Speaker 5: not eligible for the death time because she didn't actually
Speaker 5: participate in you know, she didn't participate and why would
Speaker 5: she be interned at all? But she was given life
Speaker 5: without pero.
Speaker 4: Now, what about the appeals process and what's life like
Speaker 4: behind bars for Nancy Risch?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's not pleasant, of course, but she endured.
Speaker 5: She had an appellate defender who took her case, filed
Speaker 5: motions over the years in prison, Nancy got her education
Speaker 5: at her college, educating some degrees in food service. She
Speaker 5: helped him. There's a program called Helping Pause which trained
Speaker 5: service dog. He became an expert dog grommer. She modeled prisoner.
Speaker 5: Some of the women who I talked to in prison
Speaker 5: said that she was a role model and an inspiration.
Speaker 5: So and you know she was a was ideal.
Speaker 4: You talk about one of the appeals in two thousand
Speaker 4: and four in December, tell us about a couple of
Speaker 4: the events there, and especially about the electric chair allegation.
Speaker 5: Well, when she was being questioned initially, one of one
Speaker 5: of the detectives was threatening, saying that she was going
Speaker 5: to get the electric chair even though she wasn't eligible
Speaker 5: for it, even though we no longer had. It was
Speaker 5: all intimidation, trying to beat her down. But they couldn't
Speaker 5: do it because she couldn't tell them anything. She didn't
Speaker 5: know any that she wasn't involved.
Speaker 4: How did she explain her lies? Because I the prosecution
Speaker 4: used the instances where she initially lied and another story
Speaker 4: came out to make it so that he had no
Speaker 4: credibility with her story whatsoever.
Speaker 5: Well, when she was arrested, like I said, she didn't
Speaker 5: know what was going on. They asked her for whereabouts
Speaker 5: that evening if she had seen a certain tape recorder
Speaker 5: that Danny had used to of course mister Small to
Speaker 5: make a statement, and she said no if she hadn't
Speaker 5: seen it, and lied about her whereabouts. But she was
Speaker 5: scared us, and at that point he was still covering
Speaker 5: up for Danny because she didn't know what was going on.
Speaker 5: These are minor live if you will, that had nothing
Speaker 5: to do with the kidnapping, had nothing to do with anything.
Speaker 5: But they use this as as a point that, well,
Speaker 5: she can't be believed because she lied about them.
Speaker 4: You talk about a parole hearing in twenty fourteen being
Speaker 4: marred by the same type of wrongful evidence that was allowed.
Speaker 4: Tell us about that, well, this is the only parole
Speaker 4: hearing she had up to that. Twenty fourteen. You remember
Speaker 4: when Danny called the house Posy as a policeman, a
Speaker 4: Small Sun answered the phone and he talked to Danny
Speaker 4: for a few minutes. The Sun told the police there
Speaker 4: was a man's voice in the phone, told the FBI
Speaker 4: it was a man's voice in the phone, testified and
Speaker 4: Nanty tround it was a man's voice.
Speaker 3: In the phone.
Speaker 5: It was a man's voice in the phone that's tested
Speaker 5: by two. In twenty fourteen, he sent a vic impact
Speaker 5: statement to the COROL Board and it began quote, the
Speaker 5: first time I heard Nancy Risch's voice was on September second,
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty seven, when she called our house. It was totally,
Speaker 5: totally a lie. Was contrary to what he had testified to.
Speaker 5: His younger brother also said a victim impact statement, saying
Speaker 5: it was Nancy who called the house, even though he
Speaker 5: didn't hear the phone call and he never heard nathy voice.
Speaker 5: This is the kind of control and this is the
Speaker 5: kind of people the small Family is.
Speaker 4: You were the only person to be able to get
Speaker 4: an interview with Danny Edwards, and you also spoke to
Speaker 4: Nancy Risch behind bars as well. Tell us about the
Speaker 4: interaction with Danny Edwards.
Speaker 5: First, well, he didn't want to talk to me. I
Speaker 5: had got back to the numerous times and he wouldn't
Speaker 5: even get back to me. Well, finally I got her
Speaker 5: to him and we talked. It invited me to the
Speaker 5: prison and I spent many days in prison talking to
Speaker 5: him a lot of what he wanted to talk about
Speaker 5: was the Bible, because for twenty some years he'd been
Speaker 5: a born again Christian studies the Bible intensity he writes
Speaker 5: essays and teaches Bible studies. That's the main focus of
Speaker 5: life now. So talked a lot about that. But also
Speaker 5: I asked him about the kidnapping. He said, ask me
Speaker 5: anything you want. I asked them all the questions that
Speaker 5: I could. He answered without hesitation. He said he was
Speaker 5: good to get off his chest. He said he would
Speaker 5: never lie because he would never swear to God's name
Speaker 5: and then tell him lie. That that's the worst thing possible.
Speaker 4: And Nancy's involvement. You now had this person that you
Speaker 4: believed that was being as honest and being honest, and
Speaker 4: you asked him about her involvement. Well, what did he say?
Speaker 5: He said, Nancy had nothing to do with it. He
Speaker 5: didn't know anything about it. I couldn't tell her about
Speaker 5: it because she would not go along with it. As
Speaker 5: far as her helping or in any way, he said, no,
Speaker 5: she didn't help him anyway. He said, if she had
Speaker 5: helped me, it would have gone a lot easier. Said.
Speaker 5: The only readon I put mister Small in a box
Speaker 5: is because I was acting alone, and it was the
Speaker 5: only way I could hold. If Nancy was helping me,
Speaker 5: or anybody was helping me, we could have put him
Speaker 5: in a hotel or put him back to the apartment
Speaker 5: or something right and gun on them. But I have
Speaker 5: things to do. I had to, you know, the range
Speaker 5: to the grandsom called, and I had to do this,
Speaker 5: and that I was acting alone. If anybody who's helping me,
Speaker 5: I wouldn't had to put.
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Speaker 4: Now you talked about the impedance the who might be
Speaker 4: the person who likely was the person that interfered with
Speaker 4: these appeals. Tell us about this judge and his actions.
Speaker 5: Well, Judge Gordon Lustfell heard appeals or or just a motions,
Speaker 5: motions for this and that, and he denied everything. He
Speaker 5: wouldn't he wouldn't allow any. He said that anything would
Speaker 5: have to be based on new evidence that would be
Speaker 5: compelling enough to change the verdict or any reasonable jury.
Speaker 4: We're not vote to convict.
Speaker 5: Nancy lawyer said, we have new evidence, so we want
Speaker 5: an evidentiary hearing to preason out the evidence. Lustill wouldn't
Speaker 5: allow it. Well, how can you introduce new evidence if
Speaker 5: he won't allow an evidentiary hearing? This judge was you know,
Speaker 5: people in the courtroom would have shaken their heads every
Speaker 5: time they had a hearing because he was so biased.
Speaker 5: Nancy's lawyers, Margaret Byrne and Stephen Becker Chicago, thought this
Speaker 5: judge was so biased that they filed the petition asking
Speaker 5: for a new judge based on BIA. Well, the petition
Speaker 5: went to the head judge and the head judge had
Speaker 5: to assign it to another judge to be heard. Well,
Speaker 5: guess what judge he picked? He picked jud lust Fell,
Speaker 5: and Judge Lustfeld decided the judge luss Feld was not fine.
Speaker 4: Now you talk about Nancy's attorneys filing for a re
Speaker 4: sentence hearing in twenty twenty one based on what law
Speaker 4: can you explain?
Speaker 5: Well, a law was passed in twenty sixteen that said
Speaker 5: domestic abuse must be taken into account at sentencing. Well,
Speaker 5: Nancy was sentenced in nineteen eighty eight, was not taken
Speaker 5: into account, wasn't even gota. But Nancy's lawyer said, okay,
Speaker 5: since it wasn't taken into account, we want a re
Speaker 5: sentencing based on domestic abuse. Danny abused her a lot,
Speaker 5: very many times, like I said, even put it down
Speaker 5: to her head once. They had a number of witnesses,
Speaker 5: women who knew Nancy back in the day, who were
Speaker 5: all set to testify about all the abuse that They
Speaker 5: also had expert witnesses on domestic abuse. They had a
Speaker 5: good caste. But by that time the statement said you
Speaker 5: know what we can't witness I say, got too much.
Speaker 5: So they cut a deal saying we'll give you a
Speaker 5: new sentence which will amount to kinzer, which was thirty
Speaker 5: four years in prison where crime keeated. They made that deal,
Speaker 5: a new judge approved it, and the beginning of twenty
Speaker 5: twenty two, Nancy finally walked down.
Speaker 4: Incredible. You talk about near the end of the book,
Speaker 4: and it's interesting where Danny Edwards might have gotten this
Speaker 4: hair brained idea from in the first place. And you
Speaker 4: talk about the Barbara Jane Mackie's story, which made national headlines,
Speaker 4: was made into a couple television made for television movies.
Speaker 4: It was a big thing, and was a person involved
Speaker 4: named Stephen christ and some of the particulars in this
Speaker 4: echo and mirror what happened in this particular case. In
Speaker 4: this particular case involving Stephen.
Speaker 5: Small Yes, he was kidnapped and buried alive and helped
Speaker 5: her as in nineteen sixty eight, they made a TV
Speaker 5: movie out of this that she survived because the kidnapper
Speaker 5: built the box away. It should have been with air
Speaker 5: coming in and going out, which Steven Smallfox did not have.
Speaker 5: They made this into a TV movie in nineteen seventy two,
Speaker 5: and one of Danny's friends told me that in nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy two he and Danny were in the basement watching
Speaker 5: this TV movie and a very similar circumstances, and Danny said,
Speaker 5: you know what, I think somebody could get away with that.
Speaker 4: Yes, some of the particulars in this fictional story really
Speaker 4: were very, very similar and seemed to be much beyond
Speaker 4: a coincidence that he did not see this television movie.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it wasn't fictional that actually happened Barbaria g Mac.
Speaker 5: But they were both watching this movie and Danny was
Speaker 5: just sort of trying stick by you. Nobody could get
Speaker 5: away with doing that.
Speaker 4: You've called this book small Justice, and I know it's
Speaker 4: play on words, but tell us why you chose that title.
Speaker 5: Now, justice is of course named because of the small family.
Speaker 5: But in Kankakee, if you are wealthy and connected in
Speaker 5: the big shot, you can get away with if you're
Speaker 5: just an ordinary citizen with no connections, no money, and
Speaker 5: no influence like Nancy or they will.
Speaker 4: Nai only you know.
Speaker 5: It's a small justice with a small guests and small
Speaker 5: justice with the campus. That's kind of justice to give.
Speaker 4: Right And tell us about your book about governors, small lend,
Speaker 4: small governors and gangsters. Tell us about this book.
Speaker 5: Lent small with elected governor in nineteen twenty. He before
Speaker 5: he was governor of Illinois, he was the state treasurer
Speaker 5: of Illinois. He embezzled about two million dollars, you know,
Speaker 5: nineteen sixteen, nineteen seventeen, which is you know, I can't
Speaker 5: even tell you how much money that is today. He
Speaker 5: did it by you know, treasurer is supposed to invest
Speaker 5: the state funds over about three or four hundred banks
Speaker 5: because back then they didn't have FBI instruments, so you
Speaker 5: have to spread the money out and keep the bank failed.
Speaker 5: He invested half of the state money one bank, and
Speaker 5: it was a bank that did not exist. He loaned
Speaker 5: that money out to the Chicago meat factors at six
Speaker 5: to eight percent interest, and he paid eighty two to
Speaker 5: three percent. So he got away with about two million
Speaker 5: dollars in a couple of years. Well, as soon as
Speaker 5: he became governor, a new state charger took over and
Speaker 5: saw this on the books. So Small was indicted and
Speaker 5: just a few months after being sworn in as governor,
Speaker 5: he went on trial. Because the lawyers had a defense
Speaker 5: saying the divine right of kings, the king can do
Speaker 5: it over that's why Governor Small brought the law. Well,
Speaker 5: the judge didn't buy that, so he went on trial.
Speaker 5: The state put on prosecuting lasted nine moots. They had
Speaker 5: every scrap of paper they had. They had him nailed.
Speaker 5: When it came tack to the defense, Small lawyers said,
Speaker 5: we're not going to put on it. Judge was shocked. Well,
Speaker 5: Jerry came back not young. Well, it turns out the
Speaker 5: jury was a bribe by men sent by al Capone,
Speaker 5: who was a good friend of Governor's. Governor Small sold
Speaker 5: all kinds of pardons and paroles to a small to
Speaker 5: a componed men and any anybody else a good paper.
Speaker 5: I mean, I'll give you one axample. Harry Guzick rand
Speaker 5: houses prostituting, forcing young innocent women to prostituting. One woman escaped,
Speaker 5: and Guzik was arrested and went on trial. He was
Speaker 5: convicted and sentenced to the penitential. He didn't spend one
Speaker 5: day in jail. Governor's Small pardon him immediate. The next
Speaker 5: day he was back on the pratichuting business.
Speaker 4: And you talk about how small family was sacrificed in
Speaker 4: some way by the political aspirations of Governor George Ryan.
Speaker 5: He commuted all one hundred and sixty seven death sentences
Speaker 5: in Illinois to life in prison, and one of those
Speaker 5: lives to save was Danny Edward. The Small Family never forget.
Speaker 4: And what of Nancy Rish after thirty four years update?
Speaker 5: He is now living on her own. She's working a job.
Speaker 5: She's trying to get adjusted, and I had asked her
Speaker 5: about being on a podcast. She doesn't want any to
Speaker 5: deal with the keep, wants to forget the whole thing
Speaker 5: ever happened, and she's adjusted quite well. She's always been
Speaker 5: a religious person and a positive person.
Speaker 4: Yeah, fascinating. I want to thank you very much Jim
Speaker 4: Writings for coming on and talking about your extraordinary book,
Speaker 4: Small Justice. For those that might want to take further. Look.
Speaker 4: Do you have a website or do you do any
Speaker 4: social media?
Speaker 5: I do Jim Writings dot com, j I M R
Speaker 5: I d I n g F dot com.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Jim Writings for coming on and
Speaker 4: talking about Small Justice. You have a great evening, and
Speaker 4: thank you and good night.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Jan thank you,