WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:03.160 Oh hey, it's the fountain at the mall that's never on, 2 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:06.040 Ali Ward, and you're here for your brain, so am 3 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:09.279 I let's get into it. So this ologist was recommended 4 00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:11.519 years ago and has been on my list forever, but 5 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:14.080 I wanted to scoot on down an hour south of 6 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:17.800 LA to his office on the UC Irvine campus where 7 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:20.199 he does a lot of very cool and important work 8 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:24.320 studying brains. How does one become that? While an undergrad 9 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:29.079 in neuroscience and a master's in psychological and brain sciences 10 00:00:29.399 --> 00:00:32.840 from John Hopkins University, where he was later an assistant professor, 11 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:35.560 he got his PhD from u SE Irvine, and then 12 00:00:35.560 --> 00:00:38.960 he returned there to become the director of the Center 13 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:43.479 for the Neurobiology of Learning and Memory. Dude knows memory. 14 00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:46.520 Everyone in his office was so nice and I got there. 15 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:49.280 We posted up at his desk, and at one point 16 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:51.759 I looked over to see some artwork of a seahorse, 17 00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:54.359 and I was like, okay, And then I realized, oh, okay, 18 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:56.600 We're going to touch on that in a bit. But first, 19 00:00:57.200 --> 00:00:59.399 thank you to all the patrons who submitted questions for 20 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:02.479 this episode. We're going to cover Walts Wall in part 21 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:05.680 two next week. And because this is just a huge topic, 22 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:08.560 there's so many good questions. Thank you to everyone getting 23 00:01:08.599 --> 00:01:11.920 ologies merch from Ologiesmarch dot com. Thanks to everyone leaving 24 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:14.280 us for reviews, which boosts the show so much. And 25 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:16.799 each week I remember to read them all and I 26 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:20.239 pick it just written one such as this one from Lucygoose, 27 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:23.439 who wrote that they drove for seven days to Alaska 28 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:26.519 from the lower forty eight states and ologies made the 29 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:30.079 ten hour days pass quickly. Lucy Goose, I hope we 30 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:32.400 saw a moose and now onward. 31 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:32.920 Okay. 32 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:36.760 Naem Anology is not a word that this guest really 33 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:39.640 likes because someone else wrote a book using it. He 34 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:42.640 has nothing to do with the book and that person's 35 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:46.400 Google alerts rip. It's going to get screwed up because 36 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:50.439 of this. But niemnology is the study of memory, and 37 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:53.239 it comes from the Greek for something used to help 38 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:55.959 in remembering a thing, which is what I suppose your 39 00:01:55.959 --> 00:01:58.159 brain function is, among other things. 40 00:01:58.439 --> 00:01:59.760 So let's get into how. 41 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:02.879 It does, as well as discussed movie myths, aging and 42 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:07.120 memory loss, childbirth amnesia where your memory is stored, what 43 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:09.800 happens when you cram for a test or a presentation, 44 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:13.080 hormones and memory, the movie Lucy. How to know if 45 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:16.560 you're losing your mind, that thing where you can't remember 46 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:19.719 a word? What memory is even for? How to let 47 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:26.080 go of the past, remembering people's names, neurodivergence, collective mis remembering, dementia, Alzheimer's, 48 00:02:26.199 --> 00:02:30.800 and so much more with neurobiologist Professor Researcher, director of 49 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:33.919 UC Irvine's Center for the Neurobiology of Learning and Memory. 50 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:56.199 And I'm sorry, neemonologist, doctor Michael Yassa, and I'm going 51 00:02:56.280 --> 00:03:01.400 to make you hold your mic a little bit like this, Mike. 52 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:05.400 Mike is perfectly fine. I am not very formal at all. 53 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:07.000 I'll just call you Doc. How's that. 54 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:09.560 I think anything aside from Mike would just make me 55 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:10.400 feel very strange. 56 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:12.759 But Doc is fine. Doc is fine. That's okay. 57 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:18.000 As someone who studies memory and neurobiology, do you get 58 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:21.360 put on the spot a lot about memory? Do you 59 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:23.199 tell people at dinner parties like what you do? Or 60 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:25.159 will you just be diagnosing people without you? 61 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:25.919 Oh my gosh. 62 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.280 If the question comes up like NonStop the minute I 63 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:32.080 say that I'm a neuroscientist or I study the brain, 64 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:34.400 even if I don't say anything about memory. The first 65 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:36.360 thing they'll tell me about is how poor their memory is, 66 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:38.400 of course, or they'll ask me about what is this 67 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:40.639 what is this thing that happens when I just have this, 68 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:42.719 you know, thing at the tip of my tongue and 69 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:44.199 I just can't come up with it. And then all 70 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:45.759 of a sudden, when I'm not thinking about it, it 71 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:47.919 comes to mind. I'm like, yeah, tiput a tongue phenomenon. 72 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:49.560 I try to tell them a little bit about how 73 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:50.120 that works. 74 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:51.039 We'll get to it. 75 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:53.960 So it's a great, you know, conversation to have on 76 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:55.960 a plane at a dinner party. 77 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:58.919 But it's not stop. Everyone wants to find out about 78 00:03:58.919 --> 00:03:59.240 their brain. 79 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:01.840 Tell people that you do something else. 80 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:02.919 Well, it's interesting. 81 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:05.479 If I tell them I'm a professor, then I have 82 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:07.080 to explain, well, you know, I do a little bit 83 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:09.479 of teaching, but really I'm doing mostly your research, right, 84 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:11.960 But I think that that's sort of a secondary thing 85 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:14.360 they think about in terms of professors, But really you're 86 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:16.920 there to teach. But I quickly pivot from what I 87 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:19.240 teach to what I do research on, and then the 88 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:21.839 interesting questions come about. Sometimes people will tell me about 89 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.759 family members, or we'll ask all sorts of interesting questions, 90 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.079 and every now and then something out of left field. 91 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:28.759 I'll give you a great example. This is one of 92 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:31.759 my favorites and it's now come up several times when 93 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:34.560 they ask me about whether there are memories that are 94 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:38.120 stored outside of the brain, can the heart, or in 95 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:41.680 the liver or some other body organ And the first 96 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:43.000 time that I heard that question, I didn't know what 97 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:44.759 to do with it. I sort of laughed and thought, Okay, 98 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:47.160 you must be joking, And then I looked it up 99 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:51.639 and there's definitely some folks who do think that, and 100 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:54.439 it's not clear exactly what's happening. You know, they talk 101 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.199 about like triansplant cases. But you know, at the end 102 00:04:57.199 --> 00:04:59.399 of the day, we have to be simplified a little 103 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:01.680 bit in our thinking. Think this is science, and all 104 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:03.439 of the data that we have on memory and how 105 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:06.279 it works emanates from the brain, so that is where 106 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:07.079 things live. 107 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:10.839 So I've heard those cases where I never liked donuts 108 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:13.800 before I had a kidney transplant and it turns out 109 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:18.040 they loved donuts and things like that, or somatic memories 110 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:20.160 or sematic therapies. 111 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:24.240 And researchers call this clinical manifestations of body memories. And 112 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:27.839 one twenty twenty one study insular cortex neurons encode and 113 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.800 retrieve specific immune responses, found that the brain's insular cortex 114 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:36.879 stores immune related information and that in mice, those who 115 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:40.959 had episodes of this induced colitis for the study could 116 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:47.639 reexperience that intestinal inflammation just by having the insular neurons reactivated. 117 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:51.399 And the twenty twenty two paper Clinical Manifestations of Body 118 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:55.720 Memories the Impact of Past bodily Experiences on Mental Health 119 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:59.079 cited that study and explained that the findings indicate that 120 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:03.319 memory alone can activate the immune system in the absence 121 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:05.920 of an outside trigger. So, in other words, the brain 122 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:10.519 remembered an old infection and generated the inflammatory disease on 123 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:14.199 its own by reactivating a specific memory trace of the 124 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:18.160 past bodily immune response. And as will not surprise you, 125 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.240 there's a lot left to research in this realm and 126 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.800 it's fascinating. But wait, what were we talking about? 127 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:26.160 But I want to go back to the tip of 128 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.439 the tongue phenomenon because that was one of my questions. 129 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:31.680 Of course, I mean, I can maybe with a little 130 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:33.519 bit more detail later, but I can tell you that 131 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:36.399 it's a very innocuous thing. It doesn't mean anything is 132 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:38.600 wrong with your brain. It doesn't mean that it's, you know, 133 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.079 on a decline or anything like that. It happens all 134 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:44.639 the time, and largely because we are distracted and there 135 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:46.560 are many things that are competing for our attention at 136 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:49.720 any given time, even thoughts and our brains constantly compete 137 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:52.399 for attention. So every now and then you have sort 138 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:54.360 of a little bit of a failure of recall. You know, 139 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:56.839 the memory is there, but it's an issue of access, 140 00:06:57.480 --> 00:06:59.399 and you have to kind of clear some of the 141 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:01.639 clutter to be to access it appropriately. And a lot 142 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:04.079 of times that happens when your brain quiets a little bit, 143 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:06.240 when you're not distracted by the current things that are 144 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:08.639 happening in the conversation. That's why it comes back later 145 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:10.639 when you're sort of least thinking about it. Of course, 146 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:13.600 your brain doesn't actually stop thinking, but it surprises you 147 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:14.879 sometimes when it comes up later. 148 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:17.480 So this phenomenon of something being on the tip of 149 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.839 your tongue is called tip of the tongue phenomenon, according 150 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:23.639 to a nineteen sixty six Journal of Verbal Learning and 151 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:27.199 Verbal Behavior article titled the tip of the tongue Phenomenon. 152 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.800 But it's also known as lethologica, and according to this 153 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:34.920 twenty twenty four paper coordinating words and sentences detecting age 154 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:39.120 related changes in language production. Sure, it can become more 155 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:42.560 common as we age, but it's also very normal and 156 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:45.399 can be considered just the I'm tired and I have 157 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:47.720 too much going on in my brain right now phenomenon. 158 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:50.920 But we'll get to memory loss later. We're just getting started. 159 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:51.879 And this is a two parter. 160 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:54.519 Does meditation help your brain if you can try to 161 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:55.680 calm it or quiet it. 162 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:57.519 Yeah, that's a great question. 163 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:00.879 So meditation has a lot of benefits for them, certainly 164 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:04.199 to be able to remove distractors, to think a little 165 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:08.720 bit more coherently about major things that are occupying your consciousness. 166 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.920 It helps you do that. I don't know if there's. 167 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:14.959 Any rigorous studies that have been done on whether or 168 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:17.399 not meditation, for example, helps with a tip of tongue phenomenon, 169 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:20.879 particularly because it's difficult to elicit, right. It's like when 170 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:23.120 it happens, you know, you're surprised by it and you say, oh, 171 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:25.600 that just happened, but you can't exactly trigger it in 172 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:28.879 a laboratory setting and study it in detail. That way, 173 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:31.079 so we have to just rely on when it happens, 174 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:33.320 Like we ask, well, what's the circumstance, what is the 175 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.120 situation that you're in? And my guess is if one 176 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:39.600 could do a rigorous study, you would see that meditation 177 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:40.480 likely helps with that. 178 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.360 I'm finding it does happen to me more and more 179 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:46.399 often as I'm older, where I'll hear a song and 180 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:48.399 before I could tell you exactly who's saying it, and 181 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:53.679 now I go and I can't, and I'm wondering in 182 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:56.480 that moment if my brain is just like a bruised apple, 183 00:08:57.159 --> 00:08:58.840 just full of spots. 184 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:00.919 That's a good one. 185 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:04.200 I've never thought about a bruised apple analogy before, but 186 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:06.360 you know, you mentioned as we get older, and I 187 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:09.200 think that's part of it. But we're also busier and 188 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:12.759 our sleep gets disrupted and all sorts of things. I mean, 189 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:14.960 just think about the twenty four hour news cycle and 190 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:17.039 all the things that are constantly competing for our attention. 191 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:21.200 So we've become just in general, much more distractable. I 192 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:25.519 think this generation of teenagers and children even more and 193 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:29.320 more distractable, So that likely will happen more often, even 194 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.720 absent any sort of aging phenomena. Right, But as we 195 00:09:32.759 --> 00:09:35.399 get older, our ability to be able to function, and 196 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:39.039 you know, notwithstanding all of these distractions also is difficult 197 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:40.279 becomes more difficult. 198 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:43.519 Well, as a neurobiologist, someone who is such an expert 199 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:46.840 in this field, is now a good time to be 200 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.679 studying memory because things are changing so much of our 201 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:52.240 attention in our brains? Or is it so frustrating because 202 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:54.559 it changes based on like the TikTok algorithm. 203 00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:01.559 So when I first started to get interested in neuroscience, 204 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:05.879 it wasn't clear to me how quickly our knowledge would change. 205 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:06.399 Now. 206 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:09.200 Of course, when I teach students in undergraduate courses, I 207 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:10.960 always tell them, look, I'm going to tell you, you know, 208 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:14.080 mostly textbook versions of things, but there are many things 209 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:16.320 that are past the textbooks, Like these textbooks are already 210 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:19.200 obsolete by the time they're coming out because neuroscience. 211 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:21.879 Advances so quickly. So what I tell you is likely. 212 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:23.600 Going to be right like ninety percent of the time 213 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:26.200 in ninety percent of cases. But there's that additional, really 214 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.919 interesting ten percent that we've essentially just tossed out the 215 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:32.200 textbook over the last few years. And that continues, and 216 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:36.159 it actually continues at a very rapid clip. So I've 217 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:40.720 been doing this for almost a quarter century now, and 218 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:43.600 in the last five years, the advances that I've seen 219 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:46.720 in neuroscience and the study of memory have been so 220 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:51.080 much more substantial than the previous twenty years. And that's 221 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:54.240 because our technology is better, our equipment is better, the 222 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:56.840 ability to record from more cells in the brain at 223 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:00.440 the same time, and our ability to process just incredible 224 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:04.559 amounts of data with artificial intelligence, machine learning soon quantum computing. 225 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:08.200 All of those advances have had a tremendous impact on 226 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:11.200 how quickly this field has moved. So I used to 227 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:13.519 be able to tell people here's what I anticipate will 228 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:15.240 be the case in five years. Now I can't do 229 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:18.480 it anymore. Just I cannot predict because every time that 230 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:21.759 I've tried, I've realized five years later, Wow, we've moved 231 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:24.039 so much faster than I ever anticipated. So if you 232 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:25.279 ask me what I think is going to happen in the 233 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:27.279 next five years of neuroscience, I have no idea. 234 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:28.399 The sky is the limit? 235 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:31.919 Is it limitless? Okay, we're going to get to some 236 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:35.159 whack brain movies in a bit as well, But yes, 237 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:38.840 neuroscience is moving faster and faster and faster, as our 238 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:42.159 brains are also getting more and more crowded with distractions 239 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:46.360 and information. Every day, we're just zooming on this motorbike 240 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.840 of knowledge in the fast lane, carrying all our luggage 241 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:52.240 on our backs. I'm so tired and scared. 242 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:55.159 Well, we don't know the future, but what about the past? 243 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.399 How did you become a brain doctor? How did you 244 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:02.200 become someone who wants wanted to research the brain using 245 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:02.679 your brain? 246 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.519 Yeah, it's like, why do I want to think about thinking? Yeah, 247 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:11.440 there's something so very beautiful and meta about this. You know, 248 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:14.879 it wasn't always something that I envisioned myself doing. So 249 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:17.559 when I was an undergraduate first starting out, I did 250 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.240 my undergraduate training at Johns Hopkins and I was a 251 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.759 pre med major. That's what a lot of students go 252 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.960 there to study. And you have this idealized version of 253 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:27.679 the future. Right, I want to be a doctor. I 254 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:31.039 want to help people. And I remember very vividly two 255 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:33.399 things happened in quick succession. When I was in my 256 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:37.559 sophomore year of college, I took a class in the 257 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:40.759 Department of Cognitive Science called Mind's Brains and Computers. And 258 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:43.480 I remember this so vividly because nineteen ninety nine was 259 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:46.759 the year that the first Matrix came out, and one 260 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:49.080 of my assignments for that course was to go watch 261 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:52.039 The Matrix. Now, at the time, I thought, okay, this 262 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:53.879 is crazy. I'm being asked to go watch a movie 263 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:55.519 for an assignment. What could be better? This is like 264 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:58.320 the best life of an undergraduate. So I went, and 265 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:00.679 of course if any of your listen haven't seen, the 266 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.600 Matrix is some must watch, especially the original Matrix is 267 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:05.960 the world that has been pulled over your eyes to 268 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:08.879 blind you from the truth. And it was transformative because 269 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:12.440 I think one of the major themes was could you 270 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:16.360 understand the brain and its functions so well that you 271 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:21.399 can build a completely artificial simulation of the reality around it, 272 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:24.039 and the brain wouldn't know a difference, so it would 273 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:25.840 be immersed in exactly the same way. It would have 274 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.240 no idea that this is actually an alternate reality or 275 00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:31.799 a simulation. Who Now, that requires that you understand the 276 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:34.840 brain at a fundamental level so well that you can 277 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:37.879 fool it into believing this is a you know, a reality, 278 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:40.200 And that was part of the assignment, is you know, 279 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.639 what do we need to understand about the fundamental rules 280 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:45.600 of brain operation to be able to enable something like 281 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:48.519 the matrix, and the notion, of course, of like living 282 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:50.799 in a simulation was just so interesting. At times I 283 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.320 still think maybe maybe. 284 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:53.720 I have no idea. 285 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:54.679 I hope so. 286 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:56.200 But it was at that. 287 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:58.919 Moment that I realized, you know, as a pre medical 288 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:02.200 student who is interested in studying biology, studying the human body, 289 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.080 all of those things, and this was my first foray 290 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:08.080 into the brain, and I was captivated by the fact 291 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:11.519 that we just had no idea. We weren't even close 292 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:14.759 to having a complete understanding of how the brain operates. 293 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:16.960 We understood a lot about the heart, about the lungs, 294 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:19.720 about the kidneys. You know, you have a pump in 295 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:21.720 the heart, right, you have a filter in the kidneys. 296 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:24.200 And yes, we just put out an episode about veins 297 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:28.320 and arteries, and also we have one about kidneys and pea. Now, 298 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.480 there's so much we don't know about the human body 299 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.279 and quantum physics and how long we'll survive as a 300 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:38.159 species and if there are aliens. But let's just try 301 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:40.480 to stick right now to the bowl of oatmeal that 302 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:41.080 you think with. 303 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:42.799 But with the brain, it seemed like we knew a 304 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:45.080 tiny fraction of a fraction of what we need to 305 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:49.080 know to really fully understand it. So that became really exciting. 306 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.679 And then I started working in a research laboratory and 307 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.480 the department of psychiatry, so I started to see patients 308 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.000 with a variety of brain conditions, and you know, I 309 00:14:57.039 --> 00:14:59.240 was an assistance on a number of research projects where 310 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:01.799 I got this the impact of what brain research could 311 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:05.600 really allow us to do, so shifted gears. Didn't want 312 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:07.840 to go to med school anymore. I was captivated by 313 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:09.919 the thought of I wanted to be a brain scientist 314 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:12.039 and spend the rest of my life doing this because 315 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:13.360 I think I can make a career out of it 316 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:15.399 and study it for a good You know, however, many 317 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:18.519 decades without really getting to an endpoint. And I was 318 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.559 also always and continue to be a perpetual student. So 319 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:24.039 the idea that knowledge is going to evolve and change 320 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:25.960 that wasn't as scary to me as it might be 321 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:29.480 for maybe some others. So that's what got me into it. 322 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.799 And now, you know, twenty five years later, I can say, like, 323 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.399 we know a lot more, but it still remains a 324 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:37.120 small fraction of what we stand to know. 325 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:40.480 When you were studying neuroscience and you were studying how 326 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:44.720 memory works. Did you have any hacks to remember what 327 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:46.159 you were learning? 328 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:49.480 This is your way of asking me, what can I 329 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:53.480 do to improve my learning? So, yes, there are a 330 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:57.679 few things, but interestingly enough, we knew those not based 331 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:01.279 on neuroscience. We knew it based on mostly experimental psychology. 332 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:02.840 I gotta do that episode. 333 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.919 So psychologists for the longest time, since the eighteen hundreds, 334 00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:08.480 have been very, very good at trying to understand how 335 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:11.600 to optimize our memories, how to think about forgetting, why 336 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:12.639 does forgetting happen? 337 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:15.039 And so on. The neuroscience gives you tools to. 338 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.519 Understand the mechanisms that lead to that, and that's really important, 339 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:20.480 of course for us to be able to change it 340 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:23.159 and optimize it and intervene. Certainly in the context of 341 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:26.159 diseases that's important, But in a day to day sort 342 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:29.200 of learning setting, most of what we know still goes 343 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:30.279 back to experimental psychology. 344 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:31.440 I'll give you a couple of examples. 345 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:34.960 One is what we call this spacing effect. So when 346 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:36.720 I teach students about this, I tell them this is 347 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:40.080 my no cramming rule, right, And the idea is that 348 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:43.840 if you stack all of your learning into one learning episode. 349 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.399 You may do well if your tested, say an hour 350 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:49.639 later or you know, two hours later, but you're going 351 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:53.559 to quickly forget all of that material. Oh cool, And 352 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:56.960 that's why cramming doesn't work for the long term. Although 353 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:59.480 and I shouldn't maybe say this, but I'll disclose it anyway, 354 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:01.600 if you really want to do well on an exam, 355 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:03.759 still it does work to some extent. But if you 356 00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:06.960 have like a cumulative evaluation in that course, you know, 357 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:11.759 best of luck. So spacing your study sessions becomes really important. 358 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.160 And some of that also is how much learning your 359 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.480 brain naturally does when you're sleeping at night. It's constantly 360 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:20.960 replaying memories of things that you've learned during the day 361 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.240 and trying to consolidate that or kind of solidify it 362 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:25.720 and make it resistant to forgetting. 363 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:29.200 Yes, rest is important for remembering stuff. 364 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:33.039 So the more that you interspace your study sessions and 365 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:35.880 you have like some sleep in between them, the better 366 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:37.640 off your learning is going to be for the long run. 367 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:40.160 So that's one that we've known for some time. The 368 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.400 other one that is really really cool actually comes from 369 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:45.880 the notion that has been entertained I think in the 370 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.359 education realm for some time, it's the idea that you 371 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.039 may be a visual learner, or like an auditorial learner, 372 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:55.960 or a kinesthetic learner. And the reality is that this 373 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.759 is all myth. There is no such thing as learning styles. 374 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:02.640 Whether I know, and you're giving me the same exact 375 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.400 look that I get when I talk to teachers. The 376 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:08.119 reality is, if you do the right experiments, you'll uncover 377 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:11.880 the fact that there's no such thing as a learning style. Now, 378 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.079 what is the case is that the more senses that 379 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.720 you involve in your learning, the more you engage what 380 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:23.000 we call multimodal learning, so both visual and auditory and 381 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:26.680 maybe kin esthetic, the better off your recall is going 382 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:27.279 to be later on. 383 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:30.960 And this can also be called multimodal learning theory. But 384 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:35.920 author and Harvard developmental psychologist and research professor Howard Gardner 385 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:41.079 founded this theory decades ago of multiple intelligences, which breaks 386 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:45.759 down strengths in areas like physical movement and being word smart, 387 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:50.359 and nature smart and photo smart and interpersonal smart. And 388 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:55.119 some educators have adopted parts of that multiple intelligences theory 389 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:58.279 to teach using various senses to appeal to different types 390 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:02.519 of intelligence, but many researchers are very squiky about that, 391 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:07.559 including Gardner himself. So while the notion of learning styles 392 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.440 are a myth, engaging more senses can help with recall. 393 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:14.160 Because you're engaging more the senses, you're essentially giving your 394 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:18.000 brain more bits and pieces to connect this memory to. 395 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.039 So any number of those bits and pieces can retrigger 396 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:23.319 that memory and allow you to recall it. You're giving 397 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:27.240 it more routes to retrieval essentially, So that's something else. Again, 398 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:29.000 we've known this from experimentals that calls you. We didn't 399 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.359 need neuroscience, we didn't need fancy brain imaging and some 400 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.279 one to tell us all that. We just knew it 401 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:38.119