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Speaker 1: If you want to get the show early and ad free,

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head on over to the Peak Kinyonas show dot com.

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There you can choose from where you wish to support me.

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Now listen very carefully. I've had some people ask me

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about this, even though I think on the last ad

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I stated it pretty clearly. If you want an RSS feed,

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you're going to have to subscribe yourself Substack or through Patreon.

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You can also subscribe on my website which is right there,

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gum Road and what's the other one, subscribe Star And

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if you do that, you will get access to the

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audio file. So head on over to the pekan yonasshow

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dot com. You'll see all the ways that you can

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support me there. And I just want to thank everyone.

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It's because of you that I can put out the

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amount of material that I do. I can do what

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I'm doing with doctor Johnson on two hundred Years Together

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and everything else, the things that Thomas and I are

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doing together on kindinal philosophy, it's all because of you.

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And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank

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you enough.

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Speaker 2: So thank you.

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Speaker 1: The Pekanyonashow dot com. Everything's there. I want to welcome

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everyone back to the Peking Yona's show. I am here

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with Claire. How are you doing today, Claire?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing great. How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing good, doing good. So tell everybody a little

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bit about yourself as an introduction to this, and I

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think people will understand right away that you're going to

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hold stuff back, but we'll still have an interesting conversation here.

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So go right out of Claire.

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Speaker 3: Sure. I've been working in the entertainment industry now for

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almost twenty years, and I work based out of New York,

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but I work all over the country, and in addition

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to that, for some time now, I've also been teaching

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in the entertainment sector, and so I have an interesting

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relationship to not only the industry as it exists now,

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but also where it's going and who's coming into it.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the interesting thing about what you do

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is I mean, if you were just working in the

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entertainment industry and we were going to have the conversation

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we're going to have, that'd be one thing. But you're

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in academia as well, and really those are two pillars

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of what you would call regime control at least for

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like a hundred years. You know, you get entertainment, and

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you could put your narrative out there, and you get

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academia and you can teach kids what the narrative is

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going to be that they're going to have to carry

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through life if they want to succeed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think that

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there's also a bit of gatekeeping around who gets to

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make the narrative based on what credentials you have, and

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that factors into this as well.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, you told me, even though you work in

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New York, you work in academia, you grew up in

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a southern state, and you know, have you always been

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on the right and how right have you always been?

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I mean people, And from what I know of people

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is is it's very rare as someone goes from like

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the right to liberalism. Maybe when they get a little

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bit older that you can see that happen. But normally,

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as people get older and if they start out right wing,

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you know, quote unquote right wing, they have a tendency,

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especially in today's world and in what we've seen in

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like the last ten to twenty years, to crawl further

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to the right as time goes on. If they're really

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paying attention and if they are in tune to the culture.

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But also, I mean, where you work it has to

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be and who the kind of people you work with

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has to be. Kind of I would assume it would

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be radicalizing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've always been conservative, and I think you could

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correctly characterize me as right wing. I grew up in

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that kind of environment. I went to school in that

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kind of environment. But I went to an extremely liberal,

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left leaning college, and I think I went to that

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experience sort of a little bit as in battle, I

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guess you could say. And my college experience, I think

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I had a lot of good interactions with people who

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disagreed with me. I learned a lot about the other arguments.

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But I came through that experience firmly still conservative, firmly

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still I would say, right wing. And that continued throughout

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my graduate school experience and then moving to New York

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and joining the entertainment industry. I think that I am

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excited by the fact that I have so many friends

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who disagree with me. I think it's important to have

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conversations with people that don't agree with you. I think

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talking is a really big part of what makes us human.

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But I wouldn't say that I ever had a point

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where I sort of became more left leaning and then

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came back and found the right again. I think I've

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always sort of been where I am now, and as

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I get older, I become quite convinced that this is

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where I intend to stay. Certainly the events around me

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have made me feel that way, but also I think

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it's when you're young. I think there's a lot of

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prerogative to try things on. And I see this with

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the people that I teach, and you know, go for

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an idea and run towards an idea until you find

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that it doesn't work. And I think that when I

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talk to people who feel differently from me, that's what

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I'm doing. I'm listening to their idea and I'm turning

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it over and I'm thinking, well, I don't think that

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this works when I take this to the conclusion that

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I need to. And so yeah, I've always I've always

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kind of been where I am.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll come back to dialogue dialogue with left us.

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But our mutual friend who introduced us, he said that

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you mentioned that you're you know, your father tried to

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prepare you for operating in a world where people were

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going to have radically different beliefs than you. Is that true?

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Speaker 3: Yes? I think my father had similar experiences that I

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was going to have, and I think from a young

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age prepared me to have real conversations, to be able

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to debate arguments on their merit, to be able to

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listen to what people were saying and parse through what

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it really means, and to know what I believed, and

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to hold study to those values, and to not go

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into interactions assuming that I was there to sort of

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better myself or make progress on myself, but really just

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sort of say no, I know who I am. I'm

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here to learn things, but I know who I am,

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and I'm not going to walk in here and be

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changed just for the sake of being changed. And I

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think both my parents prepared me for that. But I

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think in particular, because my father had experiences being a

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conservative person in a very left wing environment, he knew

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what it was going to feel like. And it's interesting

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because he didn't really say that to me directly. You know,

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there wasn't a time when we sat down and he said, Okay,

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here's the thing. I was just raised in an environment

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where I was encouraged to form opinions and debate them.

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And know what I believed and know where I stood.

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And I think that rigorous education in the home enabled

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me to get to school and look around and say,

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I can hold my own here. I don't have to

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abandon what I think just because people around me have

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fancier credentials than me. I can still have this conversation

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and I can decide on the merits of the argument

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what I think.

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Speaker 1: Well, do the people that you work with and do

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your students, do they know that you're you know, you're

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not part of their team?

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Speaker 3: Very few, very few of them do. There are a

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few who are close to me that have come to

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understand this part about who I am and what I believe,

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but for the most part, they don't. And I think

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there are I think many who suspect, but it's easier

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to not have that suspicion confirmed for them, quite frankly.

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And I've had some cases in the past when I

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was young and a little less circumspect, where I was

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spoken to about it, sort of privately berated about it.

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And you know, I've tried not to let those things

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bother me because I feel like I show up to

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do work and I do really good work, and I

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don't really think my politics should have anything to do

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with whether or not I'm good at doing the job

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I've been hired to do. But unfortunately they do. And

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so I found it best to not have that conversation

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because it doesn't yield anything be fruitful in my experience,

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unless I'm very close to that person and we have

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a bond of respect that goes beyond just where we're colleagues.

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Speaker 1: So when you say that you're open to having conversations

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with people, you're not talking about sitting there and debating them.

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You're open to just to coexist in what essentially is

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their world. I mean, even if you are a teacher

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with your beliefs, you're really not You're not a part

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of that world. You're a little bit. You're more of

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like an outsider who's infiltrated.

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Speaker 2: I would say, yeah.

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Speaker 3: That is definitely how it feels at times. I think

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that what I've experienced is that most people are not

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actually interested in having a dialogue about these things, right

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that when it comes to political matters or what has

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become politicized, things like abortion, things like religious freedom, immigration

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rights for minority groups, all of that stuff, Right, it's

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become a world where those are no longer allowed to

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be opinions. Those are held to be measures of worth,

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and so those are not conversations that people have. They're

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supposed to be givens. When you walk into a room

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and there's there's sort of an overt understanding, very overt

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understanding that everyone in this room believes the same thing,

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because those aren't things we're allowed to not believe the

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same thing about. And so the only conversations that are

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possible is if you are close to someone and they

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genuinely want to talk with you on a person to

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person level and they genuinely want to understand how you feel,

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because those topics are not topics you are allowed to question.

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If that makes.

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Speaker 1: Sense, well yeah, but it also has to make you

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worry about whether, you know, if you're talking to someone

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and you know they're oh, no, it's okay to open

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up and everything, that they could just be trying to

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deceive you.

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Speaker 3: I mean, these are yeah, I don't really trust that, right.

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I think I'm very careful with who I talk to

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in the industry, and I I do take a risk

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when I explain it to people. But I would say

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there's just so few right that fully understand, because I

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don't believe people when they say, oh, this is an

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open space, this is a safe space, you can say

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what you feel here, because they don't mean that, you know.

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I think in a world where we've equated words with

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harm and violence, we have a problem with discourse, right,

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because if you believe that words are harmful inherently, and

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that words constitute violence, then how can you have a

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conversation with someone who disagrees with you? You know? And when

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I'm talking to someone who believes that, it's difficult to

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know how to have a real conversation because basically we

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just have to agree, right, because I don't know where

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the line is with that person.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like last year you were doing a

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gig in la and you had told our mutual friend

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that the theater kids were still wearing COVID masks in

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twenty twenty four. Why do you think, Why do you think.

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Speaker 2: They're doing that?

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Speaker 3: Well? I think there's a couple of reasons for that, right.

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I think that one is that people are fearful when

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they're told to be fearful. And I think if you

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are raised as a young person in a society that

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tells you the world is scary, the world is out

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to get you, the world is falling apart. You know,

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there's all this doomsday conversation. Everything is hyperbolic. And I

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think that we have a lot of young people who

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genuinely have grown up in a culture of fear, and

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they don't know how to not be afraid, and they

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spend a lot of time trying to protect themselves from

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things that they have been told are out to get them.

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You know, this could be a COVID mass, this could

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be speech that someone has told them is violent or harmful.

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This could be viewpoints that someone has told them are

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violent or harmful, sex of people that someone has told

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them to be violent or harmful, Religion, organized churches, you

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know all of that stuff, right, And so if you

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raise a young person to constantly fear and to constantly

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be told you're a victim, you're in danger, that's what

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they're going to do. Right. We're talking about very impressionable

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young people. And I think for a lot of these

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young people, they've been entrenched in this since they were

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in middle school, elementary school, and they've been told that

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the world hates them and that they need to be

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brave against the world, but they need to protect themselves first,

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and it comes out in this sort of I can't

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be in that room because I might get hurt scenario.

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I think we've also you know, this is a little

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bit of a sidebar, but you add it to the

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idea that we have a lot of helicopter parenting right now.

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And I see it with young people who come across

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my desk, where they've also never really been allowed to fail,

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They've never really been allowed to be alone, they've never

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really been allowed to experience real steaks and have the

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repercussions of those steaks, and that just exacerbates this, right,

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I'm afraid I'm going to get hurt, so I'm going

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to protect myself against the boogeyman that I've been told

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I should be afraid of. And I think that's really

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where it comes psychologically for these people. The distribution method

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of like the COVID mask, etc. Is just a symptom,

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right of the larger problem. And I see I see

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young people all the time, and what I want to

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tell them and what I try to tell them in

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my own way, if possible, is what are you afraid of?

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You know? So what if you disagree with me or

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him or her or whatever it is, right, what are

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you afraid of? But they're very afraid. And even the

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ones who are not swept up in sort of the

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radicalization of the left, they're afraid to tell their friends

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that they have questions. You know, they're afraid to take

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the mask off because they don't want to be perceived

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right as harming someone. They've been told that people that

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don't wear a mask are harmful people. So if they

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take the mask off, what if someone thinks that I

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don't care about other people? Right? This is all this

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is all ingrained in their psyche. Because remember the young

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people who are in college right now, they were in

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high school when this all happened. They were ninth graders,

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they were eighth graders, they were thirteen. They learned this behavior.

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Speaker 1: So I guess that probably points towards something you were

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talking about with how I mean, this is such a

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term that's been used to death. But like Trump derangement

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syndrome and how they see Trump as an authoritarian. Of

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course they never they would never see who they think

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agrees with them or as being an authoritarian. They believe

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he's a fascist. They don't know the difference between Trump

283
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and actual fascists.

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Speaker 2: They're caught.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that you said was it

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almost seems like they're physically exhausted by getting worked up

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over those they.

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Speaker 3: Are, And I don't know how they live. I mean,

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I remember being a young person, right. You could not

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pay me to be seventeen again. But I think these

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young people are exhausted. We hear all the time from

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young people. I'm just so tired. I'm just so tired,

293
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and it goes beyond. You know, I stayed up late

294
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because I didn't finish my homework. Or this is the

295
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first job I've had in the industry and I didn't

296
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realize how hard it was. Or I'm having to hustle

297
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because I can't make enough money in this one job

298
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and I need to take a side job, et cetera.

299
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You know, our industry is a really hard one and

300
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it is really underpaid. But I don't think that's what

301
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they're talking about. I think that they are emotionally and

302
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psychologically exhausted by having to constantly perform their beliefs for people,

303
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you know. I mean, the call out culture that exists

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for these young people is astronomical. Everything that they do

305
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is online. Literally, everything they have ever said, everything they

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have ever posted, every picture, it's online. Their parents started

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doing it for them when they were little, and they've

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continued doing it since. You know, you hear that joke

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picks or it didn't happen, but it's real. For these

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young people, they don't believe that it's real unless they

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broadcast it, because that's where they get their worth, right.

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They get their dopamine hits from how many likes they

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get on the social media platform. And they've been doing

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it since they were thirteen years old, since they got

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their phone, and so they are constantly living in fear

316
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that they will be revealed as somehow less radical, less progressive,

317
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less on the quote unquote right side, because if they

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slip up, it will never go away. This is something

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that I cannot fathom and I cannot stress enough to

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people that are not operating with young people today. Nothing

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goes away. For these young people. The tweet they made

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when they were fourteen years old. Their college friends are

323
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shoving that in their face daily. They're not allowed to

324
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grow and they're not allowed to change their beliefs because

325
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that's not allowed in a culture that records meticulously every

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micro move you make, it's really scary. It's really really scary.

327
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I have to say that I have significantly decreased my

328
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own social media presence because when I watch these young

329
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people go through this, it's astonishing to me how they

330
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are surviving it, and I think that they aren't. You

331
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look at the rates of depression and young people today.

332
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You look at the rates of suicide and young people

333
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today astronomically high. And they come back to this stuff.

334
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You know, if you take a young person, you put

335
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everything they've ever thought online, and then you hold them

336
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accountable for every small detail they made when they were

337
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young and foolish. How do you live.

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Speaker 2: Well?

339
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Speaker 1: I think a lot of being terminally online is also

340
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you're a lot of the people who are on Twitter,

341
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I would say very much, Twitter probably read it too.

342
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These aren't people that have friends in real life. I

343
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think a lot of them are. Their friend group is

344
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the little the group chats or the pages that they're on,

345
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and they're constantly having to I wouldn't say virtue signal

346
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because it's just a used up term, but they're constantly

347
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having to reiterate what that they're part of the group and.

348
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Speaker 3: Exactly, yeah, good no, I mean, that's exactly what you're saying.

349
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I mean, as sorry, exactly what I'm saying, because that

350
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that is what it is. You know, you you can

351
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never be enough, you know. And I think this is

352
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a good sort of This is a good sort of

353
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realtion to something that I think is also really happening,

354
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which is that, in a culture that prioritizes victimhood, if

355
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you solve the problem, you lose the power. Right. So,

356
00:22:14,279 --> 00:22:19,039
in order to maintain your status as someone who's allowed

357
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to speak right, because a lot of this is about

358
00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:25,599
who's allowed to talk right now, you have to constantly

359
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,119
be reaffirming that you are one of those people who

360
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has been disenfranchised in some way, right, And in order

361
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to do that, you have to constantly be signaling where

362
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you have been harmed. And this leads to a very

363
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dangerous spiral where you lose sight of reality because you're

364
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constantly having to prove to other people that you get

365
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to talk right now. Does that make sense?

366
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Speaker 2: It makes sense.

367
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Speaker 1: But what I see as the biggest problem with that

368
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is that you actually start to believe it.

369
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Speaker 3: Well yeah, of course, yes.

370
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it becomes your reality, even if it isn't your reality.

371
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There was a back in the eighties in the early nineties,

372
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there was a lot of talk and I actually experienced

373
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it with somebody that was very close to me of

374
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group therapy, and people would walk out of would hear

375
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,799
other people's stories and walk out of there and adoptimist

376
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their own.

377
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think this happens, right, And I

378
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,759
think that you have to believe it on some level, right.

379
00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:37,599
I mean, if you repeat something daily, at some point

380
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,799
you start believing it or you go insane. Right. We

381
00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:46,759
aren't made to live with that level of cognitive dissonance, right,

382
00:23:47,559 --> 00:23:49,839
And I think that people do believe it, and I

383
00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:52,319
think they internalize it because that's how they see the world.

384
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,559
They don't have another option, and if they want to

385
00:23:54,599 --> 00:23:58,200
continue with those friends in that circle with that level

386
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,759
of ability to speak, they have to adopt that as

387
00:24:01,759 --> 00:24:04,200
their identity. I think that this is also really hard

388
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,279
for young people because they don't know who they are yet.

389
00:24:06,319 --> 00:24:07,920
A lot of these young people, right, this is the

390
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,200
first time they've been away from home. This is the

391
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,519
first time they haven't been the child of so and so,

392
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,920
this is the first time where they haven't been defined

393
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,279
by their siblings or their friend group. And they come

394
00:24:17,319 --> 00:24:20,000
to these institutions to figure out who they want to be,

395
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,680
and they get told that you have to be this way,

396
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,240
and if you don't conform, then you don't get to

397
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,960
be here. You don't belong, you're not one of us,

398
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,920
and even worse, we hate you, we don't want you here. Right,

399
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,000
So of course they're going to go along with it

400
00:24:39,079 --> 00:24:42,559
because they want to have friends, you know, they they

401
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,039
want college to be fun. They're in an impossible situation.

402
00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: Why don't you talk a little bit about well when

403
00:24:51,039 --> 00:24:53,200
you had brought up before, you know, like it's like,

404
00:24:53,759 --> 00:24:56,480
I can you know, I can have conversations with these people.

405
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,359
I knew you weren't talking about having conversations about, you know,

406
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,480
what you believe, what they believe in comparing or debating.

407
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:11,440
But I think it's pretty it should be pretty obvious

408
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,519
to people, and I don't There are still people out

409
00:25:14,519 --> 00:25:19,480
there that think that they can debate and like if

410
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,279
they have the better idea, they're going to win. I

411
00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:29,359
call those people naive and dangerous. But why don't you

412
00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:33,559
talk a little bit about just what you would overhear

413
00:25:34,599 --> 00:25:37,880
not only on the camp, you know, in a college classroom,

414
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,599
but also in your industry about Charlie Kirk getting killed.

415
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, that was uh, that was really that was

416
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:55,640
really hard. I I to say that I was surprised

417
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,880
would be not totally accurate. But I heard a lot

418
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,240
of people who were really happy about that, for lack

419
00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:09,559
of a better word, that they felt that this was

420
00:26:09,599 --> 00:26:12,720
a good thing that had happened, and they weren't shy

421
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:20,400
about saying it. They were excitedly sharing the news, and

422
00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:25,759
there were a lot of, you know, funny things like

423
00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:28,720
I didn't find them funny, but funny things that people

424
00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:36,039
said back and forth. You know, it's difficult for me

425
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:43,240
to understand why celebrating our murder is okay. But again,

426
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,680
I think it's the logical conclusion of if you if

427
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,160
you decide that a whole group of people and what

428
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:54,319
they believe doesn't matter, right, and you've dehumanized them to

429
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,720
where they aren't people to you, and there they don't

430
00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:00,079
they don't get to count as people. Their opinion and

431
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,960
shouldn't be are not allowed, and you declare things like

432
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,759
I'm not friends with any of those people, then of

433
00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:08,440
course that's how you're going to feel when one of

434
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,960
those people is no longer here. It was disheartening, to

435
00:27:13,039 --> 00:27:17,079
say the least. I didn't really want to come to

436
00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:20,599
work that day because I knew I was going to

437
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,519
have to see and hear about it all the time.

438
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,680
And I sort of managed to isolate myself to where

439
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,359
I didn't have to see and hear about it. But

440
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:35,039
I know it was happening because I I could, I

441
00:27:35,079 --> 00:27:38,079
could feel it, and I could hear other people outside

442
00:27:38,079 --> 00:27:40,480
the door talking about it, you know, quite frankly. And

443
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,599
there are a couple people that are conservative here that

444
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,599
shared with me what had been shared with them, you know,

445
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:56,440
these funny little, not funny little memes about him getting shot,

446
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,240
and it was it was really sad. I think that

447
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,759
I saw in my social media feed a lot of

448
00:28:04,799 --> 00:28:07,000
people that I am friends with, that I work with,

449
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,839
that I consider to be friends, you know, on a

450
00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:15,640
professional level, post things on social media that made it

451
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,000
clear to me that they thought this was not only okay,

452
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,920
but a good thing and something to be celebrated. And

453
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,759
it just made me think to myself, if they hate

454
00:28:26,039 --> 00:28:29,640
him enough that they think it's okay to murder him,

455
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,200
then do they think they should murder me?

456
00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: Right?

457
00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:36,319
Speaker 3: Like? I mean, that may sound extreme, but I don't

458
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,000
think it is because I think and feel those things too.

459
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,839
And that's what made me so sad, because I realized

460
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,079
that even the people that I thought were friends of mine,

461
00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:54,920
if they knew what I believed, they would feel that

462
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,240
way about me. Right.

463
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,599
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it makes sense because when you're dealing with

464
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,319
people who are operating purely on emotion and well, let

465
00:29:06,359 --> 00:29:09,920
me ask you this. I had this thought a little earlier,

466
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,880
but I didn't bring it up. How many of these people,

467
00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:18,000
especially young people, and doesn't only have to be young people,

468
00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:21,200
the people you work with, whether it be an academia

469
00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:27,559
colleagues or people you work with in the industry, in

470
00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:30,920
the entertainment industry, how many of these people are on

471
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,079
prescription medication?

472
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: I don't know.

473
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:45,519
Speaker 3: I definitely think that in general, young people today are

474
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,400
very medicated. Certainly, I'm always astound. I mean, you know,

475
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,680
at the college level, we don't. It is a pretty

476
00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:59,240
the further laws are pretty clear, like we don't. We

477
00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:01,599
try not to to sort of get into that information

478
00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:04,200
with the students, and I definitely try not to just

479
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,480
because I don't. I'm not a therapy you know what

480
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,759
I mean, I'm not licensed to deal with that kind

481
00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:12,119
of thing. And so I try very hard to sort

482
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,279
of direct questions around that to the appropriate resources, as

483
00:30:16,319 --> 00:30:20,079
I think most people who are in teaching do. But

484
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,920
I think it's no secret that in America we put

485
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,200
people on prescription drugs at a very early age, very

486
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,200
powerful ones to treat all kinds of things, and a

487
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,920
lot of times that may not be the solution that

488
00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:38,880
makes sense. Certainly, I think it's common for people to

489
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,519
be on a lot of antidepressants, but I don't know.

490
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:49,759
I couldn't really speak to the individuals I work necessarily,

491
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:53,400
because again I try not to engage in those conversations

492
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,720
because I think my own feelings around that kind of

493
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,839
thing are not always the most welcome. I did have

494
00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:02,960
a large conversation with a very good friend of mine

495
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,319
who has opposite political beliefs, who is aware of my

496
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,480
political and religious beliefs about this topic a couple nights ago.

497
00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:12,480
It's not someone who works in the industry, but it's

498
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,079
someone who's an adjacent industry with me, and I just

499
00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:18,920
sort of expressed my opinions that I don't think the

500
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,640
one size all fits policy around therapy and prescription drugs

501
00:31:23,759 --> 00:31:26,160
is very helpful. I think that there's sort of this

502
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,319
idea that well, we just need to get everybody in therapy,

503
00:31:29,319 --> 00:31:31,480
and we just need to get everybody on antidepressants, right,

504
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,720
and that'll fix everything, that every will be better. And

505
00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:37,720
I was expressing that my own experience with those things

506
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,839
has been very different and it has not been the

507
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,640
solution for me. And it was interesting because my friend

508
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,960
was sort of not satisfied with that answer, even though

509
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,480
I made it clear that I think, if that's what

510
00:31:53,759 --> 00:31:56,039
my friend wants to do, then I have no problem

511
00:31:56,119 --> 00:31:59,119
with that. But I don't think that that's a panacea

512
00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:02,400
that you can just apply in all situations. And I think,

513
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,359
you know, they've done a lot of research with young people,

514
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,839
and it turns out that the best medicine for a

515
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:15,680
young person who feels insecure, non confident, self aware, unhappy

516
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,599
with their physical appearance, especially on people going through puberty,

517
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,160
you know, the best medicine is actually to put them outside,

518
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,759
away from electronic devices and get them in, you know,

519
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,440
an outdoor physical environment like a summer camp or a

520
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,200
sport or something like that. Right, the research shows very

521
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,759
clearly that that actually is the number one thing that

522
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,279
helps young people overcome the natural things that happen when

523
00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:45,880
you're in puberty, that you don't feel confident, that you

524
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,880
don't like who you are, that you don't think your

525
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,920
body is beautiful. You know, all of these things that

526
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,720
we see young people being pushed into. Other explanations for

527
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,400
the answer is to put them outside and give them

528
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:57,440
something to do. You know.

529
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean and when your whole existence is online,

530
00:33:04,279 --> 00:33:07,440
being outside, you know, you may you may lose your

531
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:08,680
phone signal.

532
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: Or something like that.

533
00:33:10,039 --> 00:33:13,079
Speaker 3: Right, But you know, it's funny that this is what works,

534
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,799
and you see it start to be prescribed more. But

535
00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:22,880
that's what works. I think what frustrates people about this

536
00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:25,039
is it a lot of the places that do that,

537
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,279
like say a summer camp or whatnot, are run by

538
00:33:28,359 --> 00:33:32,240
people who are religious. And I think that that that

539
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,359
creates problems, right if you don't want your children exposed

540
00:33:36,359 --> 00:33:43,079
to religion. But that's how you help people get better, right,

541
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,240
just at a general level.

542
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:47,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, being outside.

543
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: You know, I think it was probably I think it

544
00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:53,799
was a leftist that came up with the term touching grass.

545
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,440
Go touch grass, Yes.

546
00:33:55,359 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 3: I go touch grass. I hear that a lot, yeah, which.

547
00:33:58,839 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: Which is hilarious because as it usually comes from somebody

548
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,640
who has in such grass in a very long time.

549
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I do think there's something interesting happening

550
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,440
with young people, because you know, we're sort of talking

551
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,800
about young people right now, a lot is that they

552
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:18,239
are interested in more analogue things. I think that I

553
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,679
think that young people today, while they're not willing to

554
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,599
give up the phone, right, they're not willing to give

555
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:25,639
up social media. It's sort of an appendage and it's

556
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:28,599
like part of their psychology that they get those that

557
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,840
dopamine hit right during their daily lives. But they they

558
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,840
are interested in being in the moment, and I think

559
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,599
that they have started to realize I've seen this happened,

560
00:34:41,599 --> 00:34:48,760
that they recognize that this chronic being online, this addiction

561
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,280
to the cell phone and the Instagram and the Twitter

562
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,039
feed and all that, that it prevents them from actually

563
00:34:55,079 --> 00:34:57,559
engaging in the world around them. And I do think

564
00:34:57,599 --> 00:35:00,519
we are seeing a resurgence of young people who are

565
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,679
interested in unplugging, but they don't really know how to

566
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,440
do it, and they're not really doing it right in

567
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,559
the way that maybe people did in the eighties and seventies.

568
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,360
But they are curious around it, and I think that

569
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,840
curiosity gives me a little bit of hope that if

570
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,079
we could just get them unplugged from the machine, right,

571
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,199
the machine that's doing all this programming, they would maybe

572
00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:27,199
think for themselves and they might come up with a

573
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:32,000
different result. Unfortunately, the industry that I work in doesn't

574
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,159
really touch grass. We work inside dark rooms right where

575
00:35:35,159 --> 00:35:38,920
we don't touch grass at all and purpose, so it's

576
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,679
hard to sort of it's hard to sort of promote

577
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,320
that when my industry requires you to be inside using

578
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,480
electronics most of the day, you know, But I think

579
00:35:48,559 --> 00:35:50,840
this being in the moment thing is a place to

580
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,880
sort of slip in and say, Okay, well everyone has

581
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,920
told you a lot of things online, but right now,

582
00:35:55,039 --> 00:35:58,760
what are you experiencing right now? You know, make your

583
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,199
own opinion about that. Actually have some backbone. Don't just

584
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,760
repeat what someone has said to you. Think about it

585
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,079
for yourself, and decide what you feel and what you think.

586
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,199
And I want to be very clear, I don't want

587
00:36:11,199 --> 00:36:13,639
to confuse feelings with fact, because I think that a

588
00:36:13,639 --> 00:36:17,039
lot of people today, young and old, have confused feelings

589
00:36:17,039 --> 00:36:19,280
with fact. Right that like the idea that if I

590
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,639
feel something, it must be true, and this is obviously false. Right,

591
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,480
We feel a lot of things that are not true,

592
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,159
especially when what we feel is based on information that

593
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:31,719
is not true. And so I think that being able

594
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,800
to help people learn the difference between I feel a

595
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,400
certain way, but it doesn't mean that I have to

596
00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:41,639
act on that feeling or revise my worldview based on

597
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,440
that feeling. But I can actually look at what the

598
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,079
fact is I feel this person has said something that

599
00:36:46,119 --> 00:36:48,519
I do not like. Is the fact that they have

600
00:36:48,599 --> 00:36:50,760
harmed me? Or is it the fact that we disagree?

601
00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 2: Right?

602
00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 3: I think people are unable to distinguish between those two things.

603
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: So one of the things that you had mentioned was

604
00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:03,039
the fact that highly educated people.

605
00:37:03,199 --> 00:37:04,679
Speaker 2: It's quote unquote that.

606
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,639
Speaker 1: Most of the people you interact with are highly educated.

607
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,920
But in your own words, you say that they're ignorant

608
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:24,840
and deranged. And that's I mean ignorant, sure, deranged. I

609
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,679
mean that's a whole that's a whole thing because you're

610
00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:33,440
you know, you have to ask yourself, Okay, why you

611
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,679
know what is it? Is it academia doing it to them?

612
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,960
Is it the fact that they they thought they were

613
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,159
going to get answers in academia and they didn't get them.

614
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,440
Is it stunting of growth? Is it, you know, column A,

615
00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:50,159
column being column C. I mean, what is it about

616
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,119
people who can you know what they say about like

617
00:37:54,119 --> 00:37:57,039
like you know, right wingers, you know, like far right

618
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,960
people who are far to the right is you know, oh,

619
00:38:01,119 --> 00:38:03,840
you people are uneducated and you know it's like, well,

620
00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:07,599
that's not true. I probably read more books in a

621
00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:10,559
year than most leftists have read in the last ten years,

622
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,000
you know. And you know, I read poetry and I

623
00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:19,440
read you know, I listened to classical music. There's I'm

624
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,199
very refined, but I'm also you know, somebody who is

625
00:38:25,599 --> 00:38:31,599
not somebody whose heroes are considered to be you know,

626
00:38:32,119 --> 00:38:34,440
maybe possibly some of the worst people who ever lived

627
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,920
by most people in academia.

628
00:38:38,199 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 2: So what is it? What?

629
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, well I think it's the sort of

630
00:38:44,039 --> 00:38:46,360
complete takeover. And I mean I think this this is

631
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,800
the this is the culmination of you know, a long

632
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:56,880
game program, right that what started sort of you know,

633
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,440
i'd say like in the fifties really that you sort

634
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,280
of you infiltrate academia with sort of these other ideas

635
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,280
right about how society could be. And then those people

636
00:39:10,599 --> 00:39:12,679
are educated that way, and then they go on and

637
00:39:12,679 --> 00:39:14,920
they become the high school teachers, and they become the

638
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,239
elementary school teachers, right, and then they have children, and

639
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,280
then they raise those children that way. And I think

640
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,599
that what we're seeing is sort of the completion of

641
00:39:23,599 --> 00:39:27,639
that cycle. That if you've got a bunch of people

642
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:34,280
who've been educated from birth that these leftis ideologies are true,

643
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,920
then there isn't a way for them to see something else.

644
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,800
And so I don't know that it's just I don't

645
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,639
know that they're showing up to college and they're getting indoctrinated.

646
00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:48,159
I think that they're indoctrinated in elementary school. Think. I

647
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,599
think it's a full I think it's a full court press, right.

648
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:57,800
And I think that that has happened recently, that maybe

649
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,320
in the last like fifteen twenty years, that the elementary

650
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,440
schools and the public schools have been sort of filled

651
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:09,199
with this ideology. I mean, you remember when that anti

652
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,159
racist baby book came out, right, I don't know if

653
00:40:13,159 --> 00:40:19,000
you remember that, but I mean, what's happening, right, I mean,

654
00:40:20,079 --> 00:40:24,519
you're basically saying that we're going to start promoting this

655
00:40:25,159 --> 00:40:30,719
kind of speak from infancy, right, and we're going to

656
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:36,000
set up the idea that we've got these systemic problems

657
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:38,840
from infancy, and we're going to set up this US

658
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:44,039
versus them mentality from infancy. And so I think you

659
00:40:44,119 --> 00:40:47,119
don't get that without acknowledging that there's a whole generation

660
00:40:47,199 --> 00:40:49,639
of parents who were brought up in an educational system

661
00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:53,000
that was already very far to the left, and now

662
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,280
it's just completed the circle. I mean, Harvard published an

663
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,719
interesting article recently where they were documenting that their student

664
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,400
is actually more conservative than it's been in a very

665
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,400
long time. And if you look at the numbers, the

666
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,760
faculty is like very very left, it's like ninety eight

667
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,199
percent or something like that, you know, but the student

668
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,599
body itself is actually shifting more moderate and indeed right,

669
00:41:18,119 --> 00:41:20,960
And they don't really know what to do about it, right,

670
00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:27,079
because there aren't people that are teaching that that think

671
00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:29,559
and feel the way that some of these students are feeling.

672
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:34,760
They there's a big disconnect. But I mean, I think

673
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,400
the schools are making it worse, right because you young

674
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,119
people come to school to be told how to get

675
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:44,159
an education, and we sort of equated that education with

676
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,400
bettering oneself. Right, that like, you get a college education

677
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,000
and that makes you somehow superior to people who don't

678
00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:52,840
have a college education. There's this idea around that, and

679
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,440
I think that that idea is perpetuated by academic institutions

680
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,719
because it gives them credibility, right that why should you

681
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,159
pay us money because we make you superior versus schools

682
00:42:03,199 --> 00:42:06,280
that are trade schools or you know, ged requirements and

683
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,360
things like that. We have an idea in our culture

684
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,760
that if you have a college degree, you are somehow

685
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,679
better than people who don't. And I think that there's

686
00:42:14,679 --> 00:42:16,960
this idea that you go to college and you you know,

687
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,639
you've come from a very provincial place right wherever you

688
00:42:19,679 --> 00:42:22,199
grew up, and you were very sheltered with your parents,

689
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,000
and then you come to college and you get exposed

690
00:42:24,039 --> 00:42:26,159
to the real world and real ideas, and that you know,

691
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:31,360
you're supposed to shed off that provincial thought and take

692
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,800
on a more worldly view because now you have education

693
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,360
and so you know better. I think that's a total lie.

694
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,840
You know, it's certainly the lie that I experienced. But

695
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,199
I think that's possible because in the high schools and

696
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,679
in the elementary schools, they're also hearing the same message.

697
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,519
You know, the people that you've been raised by, they

698
00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:55,559
maybe don't, you know, their old fashioned they haven't changed,

699
00:42:55,679 --> 00:42:59,000
their beliefs are out of date, et cetera. You know,

700
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,960
when you get to college, you'll be able to decide

701
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,119
for yourself and make different choices. And I think that

702
00:43:05,159 --> 00:43:07,639
this is being said in the classrooms to young people.

703
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:14,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, I mean at this point, we've everything

704
00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:16,960
we've been talking about is negative.

705
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 3: And I know, I know, I'm sorry.

706
00:43:18,559 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, I mean we have to we have

707
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,599
to go through it. I mean, we have to know

708
00:43:23,639 --> 00:43:27,079
what the problem is before we can even talk about

709
00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:33,800
whether anything positive is u is happening. So I guess

710
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:38,960
one of the first things the whole de I thing,

711
00:43:40,119 --> 00:43:42,679
what do you what do you see happening with with

712
00:43:42,679 --> 00:43:44,920
with the whole de I regime?

713
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know, federally it's it's not allowed anymore.

714
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:58,119
And certainly I have watched educational institutions and places that

715
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:04,719
I work remove that language. Right, they are very quick

716
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,920
to assure everyone in the institution that they are still

717
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,800
doing that work. They're just calling it something else, right,

718
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:18,000
So from their perspective, they are sort of undercover now

719
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:23,159
and working very hard to keep doing the work. As

720
00:44:23,199 --> 00:44:27,000
they would say it right from the out of perspective.

721
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:33,119
I think that it's you can't really say it in

722
00:44:33,159 --> 00:44:37,280
the same way, right, so that messaging in that language

723
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,519
isn't hitting young people and frankly people who are my

724
00:44:41,559 --> 00:44:44,039
age to the same degree that it was. I mean,

725
00:44:44,159 --> 00:44:50,280
I got to say that during twenty twenty and twenty one,

726
00:44:51,079 --> 00:44:54,119
so much of my life was consumed by showing up

727
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:57,519
to go to work and then finding that the first

728
00:44:57,559 --> 00:45:01,280
hour of my work day was going to be this, right,

729
00:45:03,159 --> 00:45:06,000
that we would be engaging in some sort of workshop

730
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:08,960
or engaging in some sort of exercise as a group

731
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,760
before we could begin the actual work of the day,

732
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,719
which was to you know, do whatever the task was

733
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,519
ahead of us. That sort of thing doesn't really happen

734
00:45:17,559 --> 00:45:24,480
anymore because it really can't. And so you know, I

735
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:30,840
don't have to sort of go through that experience unfortunately,

736
00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:33,199
or I mean, I don't know, unfortunately. It's a weird word.

737
00:45:34,039 --> 00:45:38,679
The language, though, is still there, right. Young people have

738
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,079
learned this language in their high schools and in their

739
00:45:41,079 --> 00:45:43,760
middle schools, and so that's how they talk, right. They

740
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,199
see the world through that lens. And I don't know

741
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,800
that I don't know how to undo that. I think

742
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,360
maybe with time it will sort of gradually unravel because

743
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,840
it won't be indoctrinated into young people like it was

744
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:03,079
for four years. But the language is still very much present.

745
00:46:03,199 --> 00:46:07,519
It's just not able to be funded or presented as

746
00:46:07,519 --> 00:46:09,280
sort of a requirement. You know, a lot of schools

747
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,880
right had requirements for their students that they had to

748
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:17,760
participate in DEI programs as part of their curriculum, and

749
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,119
now that that doesn't exist, right, So I guess that's

750
00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:25,159
kind of the change that I've seen more than anything else.

751
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,800
But I think the people that are still in the schools,

752
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,800
they're very much thinking of the world that way, even

753
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,719
if they're not using those terms. Because I answer your question,

754
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,400
I hope that maybe, yeah.

755
00:46:37,199 --> 00:46:39,760
Speaker 1: That's about that's about what you what you would expect

756
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,599
that it would still be sticking around, But if it

757
00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:47,239
can't be funded, then it'll it'll eventually evaporate and it'll

758
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,000
just be uh remnant, They'll be remnants of it.

759
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 3: But Jim just to be cool about the funding as well. Right.

760
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,920
The funding is interesting because it can be funded at

761
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,000
a federal level, Like you know, we've seen this play

762
00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:02,239
out right in the grants, right if you if you,

763
00:47:02,519 --> 00:47:04,800
if you follow the entertainment industry. Then you are probably

764
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,559
aware that the National Dowmage for the Arts changed their

765
00:47:08,599 --> 00:47:13,960
requirements for what constitutes as grant worthy work, right, and

766
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:19,159
they removed they removed language around work that you know,

767
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:26,440
was specific to a certain community identity. Right. So this

768
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,679
this caused a lot of uproar in my community, right

769
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,639
because a lot of the work that is made in

770
00:47:32,679 --> 00:47:36,719
the entertainment industry does not support itself. I mean, certainly

771
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,280
you've got stuff in Vegas where ticket sales support itself

772
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,840
and commercial projects, but a lot of the nonprofit work

773
00:47:43,039 --> 00:47:46,079
that happens specifically in New York City but across America

774
00:47:46,199 --> 00:47:49,599
non profit institutions, it's not able to be supported without

775
00:47:49,679 --> 00:47:52,880
substantial funding from outside sources. And a lot of it

776
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,639
is substantially funded by the NEA. And so when the

777
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,920
NEA changed the guidelines under Trump to say that we're

778
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,440
we're not going to allow you to we're not going

779
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,119
to fund things that are specifically related to sort of

780
00:48:06,159 --> 00:48:12,079
this dei language, right, that a lot of stuff just

781
00:48:12,199 --> 00:48:14,440
didn't get made, or a lot of stuff is in

782
00:48:14,519 --> 00:48:17,559
danger of not getting made, you know. And so there's

783
00:48:17,599 --> 00:48:21,360
been a lot of grassroots support in organizing in the

784
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,679
entertainment industry to supplement the funding that is no longer

785
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,440
coming in from the NEA for these projects that don't

786
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,519
meet the guidlines anymore. Right, because there are projects that

787
00:48:31,599 --> 00:48:37,039
specifically are exclusive right of any identity, but the one

788
00:48:37,079 --> 00:48:39,880
that the project wants to uphold. Does that make sense?

789
00:48:40,199 --> 00:48:44,039
So this is where really I've seen the biggest change

790
00:48:44,119 --> 00:48:46,599
because all of these organizations that have been counting on

791
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,000
large amounts of federal money to make up the deficits

792
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,039
that they inevitably run don't have that anymore, and they're

793
00:48:54,039 --> 00:48:56,960
having to make choices about what work they put on

794
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:59,960
because they can't make it up with ticket sales. I mean,

795
00:49:00,199 --> 00:49:03,480
it's no secret that most of the entertainment industry doesn't

796
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:06,880
make money, right, it's in the red. And so if

797
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,480
people don't want to come see it and they're not

798
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,880
going to buy tickets to it, then unless it's funded

799
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,519
in another way, it doesn't happen. So that that's really

800
00:49:14,559 --> 00:49:16,679
been the place where I've seen that. You know, academic

801
00:49:16,679 --> 00:49:19,119
institutions are funded differently, so they're going to put on

802
00:49:19,159 --> 00:49:21,880
whatever plays they want regardless of what the ticket sales are,

803
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,719
because they don't need the ticket sales to continue doing

804
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,719
the play right. They've got a budget from the university

805
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,239
to do the work, and they're going to use that

806
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,039
however they want. But it's in the the you know,

807
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:35,079
in the real world, where suddenly you can't make the

808
00:49:35,119 --> 00:49:39,719
balance sheet balance. That's where it's really I've seen the

809
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:40,920
biggest impact.

810
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:47,119
Speaker 1: What about the the trend stuff, the pronown stuff, the

811
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:54,079
gender stuff. Yeah, how strong? How strong was that stuff

812
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:58,880
in your industry? And strong?

813
00:49:59,159 --> 00:50:03,039
Speaker 3: It's just way. I don't know that that's going away.

814
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:10,360
I think I think that is very much present. What's

815
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,000
interesting is that it used to UH, as someone who

816
00:50:14,119 --> 00:50:18,840
sort of chose to opt out of that in a

817
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:24,639
big way, it used to feel hard to do that.

818
00:50:26,159 --> 00:50:28,840
Now I find that it's easier to just not engage

819
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:34,000
in that because there's not as much focus on checking

820
00:50:34,039 --> 00:50:39,199
to see who's carrying the flag, so to speak. And

821
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,480
I think part of that is that, you know, when

822
00:50:41,639 --> 00:50:44,880
no one was allowed to work because our government shut

823
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:49,400
down the country, people had a lot of time to

824
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:54,239
do nothing but focus on what their neighbor was doing. UH.

825
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,719
And so now that that we're actually doing real things

826
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,320
again in the industry, people have less time and patience

827
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,920
for that sort of thing. But certainly in academia and

828
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,199
in the non for profit sector, it's still very much

829
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,800
alive because it's a signaling tactic, right, It's that you know,

830
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,679
the rest of the world may have abandoned this, but

831
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,519
we still do this because we see you. You know.

832
00:51:15,639 --> 00:51:19,920
That's I think that's what's behind it. Personally, I think

833
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,000
that I have been able to sort of not engage

834
00:51:24,039 --> 00:51:28,679
in that, and I've been able to sort of like

835
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,360
be on the outside of that issue, which has been

836
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:36,360
good because I'm not really interested in having those conversations

837
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,639
with people. They're not going to be fruitful and they're

838
00:51:39,679 --> 00:51:41,519
going to end up with me being called a bunch

839
00:51:41,559 --> 00:51:44,519
of names, and I just don't need to engage with

840
00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:48,800
that in my workplace, you know. But it's very much there.

841
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:50,360
I think that again, I think that you've got a

842
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,559
lot of young people who are entering the industry and

843
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:54,679
entering our world, who are about to become the people

844
00:51:54,679 --> 00:51:57,719
in charge of our world, right, who are not about mean,

845
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,159
you know, in maybe ten fifteen years, who have been

846
00:52:01,199 --> 00:52:04,360
doing that since they were fourteen years old. So they

847
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,199
just believe that that's how humans should treat each other, right,

848
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,000
that's what they think, and so it's not going away,

849
00:52:11,079 --> 00:52:13,760
because that's they just do it like second nature.

850
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 1: You've said that you for years, there probably isn't a

851
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,239
day that goes by where you don't think about quitting

852
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:29,360
and walking away and doing something else, And you actually

853
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,679
said that if Trump hadn't one, that was probably what

854
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:33,880
you were going to do.

855
00:52:34,119 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 2: Right.

856
00:52:34,599 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 3: Is definitely definitely from teaching, I think definitely from teaching.

857
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:45,360
I think that professionally where I am, I've been around

858
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:50,719
a long time, so where I am professionally, I think

859
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:55,320
that I would have probably spent more time in the

860
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,239
non non for profit sector, where it doesn't matter really

861
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:03,360
as much and there's less hand ringing over such things.

862
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,760
But definitely in teaching. I mean, I found the environment

863
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,760
that I was teaching in to be pretty untenable during

864
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,280
twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, and I think it

865
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,400
would have continued to be untenable. I think that there

866
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:22,119
were there have been multiple times when it has been

867
00:53:22,159 --> 00:53:27,440
assumed that I would sign a document or put my

868
00:53:27,559 --> 00:53:31,760
name to a document or affirm things that I think

869
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,559
I had been able to sort of not do, and

870
00:53:36,599 --> 00:53:38,440
I think that that would not have been an option

871
00:53:38,559 --> 00:53:43,400
for me going forward. And yeah, I mean I were,

872
00:53:43,519 --> 00:53:46,440
you know, I think it's different if you're at a

873
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,159
private or a public institution.

874
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:50,559
Speaker 1: But.

875
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 3: I, yeah, I certainly feel like the outcome of the

876
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,320
election and gave me breathing room in a way that

877
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,960
I didn't feel that I had. And yeah, I think

878
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:08,960
about all the time. I think about the fact that

879
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,400
I basically, as as you said, I sort of live

880
00:54:12,519 --> 00:54:16,480
undercover in this world. I love the work that I do.

881
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:24,360
I love making things. It's really sad to me that

882
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:33,000
everyone around me says things about me without knowing it's me, right,

883
00:54:33,119 --> 00:54:40,519
and they say a lot of things that are really nasty,

884
00:54:40,599 --> 00:54:44,000
and I just sort of have to ignore it. And

885
00:54:44,199 --> 00:54:46,639
you know, am I personally harmed by those things? No,

886
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:50,039
it's just something someone said. But when that's your environment

887
00:54:50,159 --> 00:54:52,639
day in, day out, it's not fun. You know, it's

888
00:54:52,679 --> 00:54:55,840
not fun. And a lot of the work that is

889
00:54:55,880 --> 00:55:00,480
being made is work that is really negative and really

890
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:07,679
misinformed about people that I care about. And it's frustrating that,

891
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,039
you know, I don't want to be part of that work.

892
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,000
But at some point it's like, well, if I'm not

893
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,280
going to be part of that work, then what's left?

894
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,639
You know, there's only so many opportunities, and I think

895
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:20,599
I've found a lot of solace in working more in

896
00:55:20,639 --> 00:55:23,920
the corporate side and things where like this isn't really

897
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,519
as much of a factor, but certainly in New York,

898
00:55:27,599 --> 00:55:32,559
it's becoming increasingly difficult to find work that isn't highly political.

899
00:55:32,599 --> 00:55:34,760
And I have to say I've had conversations with people

900
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,280
who are left leaning about this problem too. I think

901
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,320
that people in the industry are frustrated with the fact

902
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,719
that everybody has to make everything about the politics all

903
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,840
the time. Like it's sort of considered bad form, right

904
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,599
to just make something that's fun just to be fun.

905
00:55:52,039 --> 00:55:55,000
It has to say something, you know. You hear a

906
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,199
lot of people say the phrase art is resistance. That's

907
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,599
one of the favorite phrases that people in my industry say.

908
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,880
Art is resistance. Art is resistance. But sometimes artists just

909
00:56:05,079 --> 00:56:08,480
art like because we thought it would be cool, because

910
00:56:08,519 --> 00:56:11,079
it looks cool, because it's a fun story, because we

911
00:56:11,119 --> 00:56:14,159
love the music, because it's an interesting story, right, And

912
00:56:14,199 --> 00:56:17,760
I think that there is fatigue even among people who

913
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:22,639
accept the leftist principles. There's fatigue that they can't just

914
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,199
make something. Because they want to make something, it has

915
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,599
to somehow have a deeper meaning. And when they say, well, no,

916
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:30,920
I just wanted to make this thing because it was interesting,

917
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,800
everybody shoots back and says, but don't you think as

918
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,719
an artist you have a duty. You have a duty

919
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,400
to use your power to say what needs to be

920
00:56:40,519 --> 00:56:42,960
said to protect who needs to you know what I mean? Like,

921
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:44,880
this is the kind of language that gets thrown around

922
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:50,119
and it's really tiresome. It's really really tiresome. And so

923
00:56:51,119 --> 00:56:56,280
you know, I think that if Trump hadn't won, it

924
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,880
would be a lot more codified, right, I think that

925
00:56:59,119 --> 00:57:02,880
Trump winning and stuff like the nea like changing. It's

926
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,199
just it's it's given a little bit of breathing room.

927
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,800
Because if you want to sell tickets, you got to

928
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,760
put on a show, right, And so maybe you're going

929
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,639
to do a show in your season that's not doom

930
00:57:14,679 --> 00:57:16,960
and gloom. Maybe you're going to do something just because

931
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:22,440
it's fun, so that that's been interesting to watch. And

932
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,000
I think everyone experiences a lot of fatigue. But again, right,

933
00:57:27,119 --> 00:57:30,239
if if you're an artist that's coded in the left

934
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,400
and you dare to say I'm tired of the fight,

935
00:57:34,039 --> 00:57:38,000
then you get canceled. Right, you weren't a true believer

936
00:57:39,559 --> 00:57:45,039
you got tired, and that's there. Nobody wants to be canceled, right.

937
00:57:46,639 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: Well, I mean the question is, is you say that

938
00:57:51,679 --> 00:57:54,880
many of these people are basically deranged?

939
00:57:55,679 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 3: Well, I mean yeah, I mean the word yeah, the

940
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:01,000
word isn't right because.

941
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: I think it's well, I mean, if you think that

942
00:58:05,239 --> 00:58:11,239
you're putting out this art, which I mean, who accept

943
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:16,079
like your immediate friend group thinks it's any good, I mean,

944
00:58:16,119 --> 00:58:20,400
it's it's garbage. Well, and it is deep down you

945
00:58:20,519 --> 00:58:22,079
have to know it's garbage.

946
00:58:22,559 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 3: Well, I think this is the thing I think that

947
00:58:25,599 --> 00:58:29,679
you know, the way I would say that the problem

948
00:58:29,719 --> 00:58:31,599
I have with a lot of art this being produced

949
00:58:31,679 --> 00:58:34,920
right now is that it's not you know, it's not

950
00:58:35,039 --> 00:58:38,559
saying anything that you can engage in, right, And I

951
00:58:38,639 --> 00:58:41,519
think that that's what you're referring to. It's like it's

952
00:58:41,559 --> 00:58:44,280
people standing up and saying this is what I feel

953
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:45,679
in this moment, affirm me.

954
00:58:46,719 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 2: Right.

955
00:58:47,599 --> 00:58:51,639
Speaker 3: That's not actually interesting in any way. It doesn't engage

956
00:58:51,639 --> 00:58:55,840
in a dialogue, it doesn't ask questions, it doesn't it

957
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,679
doesn't allow for people to engage with it who don't

958
00:58:58,719 --> 00:59:03,920
already agree with the premise, you know, and I and

959
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,480
that's where I think people are sort of deranged because.

960
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:16,519
Speaker 1: Also if they agree with you, then you you expect.

961
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:22,719
I think that they're they're expecting that this is really

962
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,400
good art and that this is real art, and you

963
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:33,280
know art. Yeah, I been in museums and looked at

964
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:41,239
classical art, neo classical art, Romanticism, medieval art. It draws emotion,

965
00:59:42,039 --> 00:59:45,119
you know, it can bring tears to your eyes. I mean,

966
00:59:45,239 --> 00:59:50,119
this is these aren't people who are They're not expecting

967
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:54,320
people to you know. It's like these comedians who they

968
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,719
don't want you to laugh. They want you to applaud

969
00:59:57,599 --> 01:00:01,559
because they're saying something. You know, they're part of the resistance.

970
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:03,440
So I know, if I go to a comedy club,

971
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,400
I want to laugh. I don't want to applaud if

972
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,480
I go to if I go to an art gallery,

973
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,039
I want to feel something. I don't want to have

974
01:00:11,079 --> 01:00:13,199
to sit there and wonder what.

975
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 3: You know, Well, I think this is what I'm getting at,

976
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:24,320
is that, like I think that a lot of this

977
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:30,320
theater making is actually a lecture. Right. It's you go

978
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,880
into the theater and you are berated by the piece

979
01:00:34,079 --> 01:00:38,199
of how bad you are. Right, you're either affirmed that

980
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,639
you're one of the good ones, and you're being celebrated, right,

981
01:00:42,079 --> 01:00:43,480
and then you look around and look at all the

982
01:00:43,519 --> 01:00:46,039
other poor pitibles in the theater who aren't being affirmed,

983
01:00:46,039 --> 01:00:49,039
and you know that you're superior or you're being told

984
01:00:49,119 --> 01:00:52,679
that you're terrible, and here are all the steps you

985
01:00:52,679 --> 01:00:55,800
should take to become better, and if you don't follow

986
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,239
these steps, then you're the problem, right like I and

987
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,119
I just I think my way of saying that would

988
01:01:02,119 --> 01:01:06,440
be that that's not that's not the point, right, Like,

989
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,840
that doesn't that doesn't actually allow people to engage or

990
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,159
feel right, because they're either they're either just feeling the

991
01:01:13,159 --> 01:01:18,159
things they've already felt or they're feeling horrible right and there,

992
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:20,360
and when when you put people in a position, you know,

993
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:22,679
if you I mean, I mean really, when I think

994
01:01:22,719 --> 01:01:24,880
about it, it's just not an effective way of communication,

995
01:01:25,039 --> 01:01:27,639
like barring what the message is, barring any of that. Like,

996
01:01:27,679 --> 01:01:31,039
if you want people to be engaged by what you're doing,

997
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:33,719
sitting them down for two and a half hours and

998
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,079
explain to them how they're terrible people is not the

999
01:01:36,119 --> 01:01:38,880
way to go about doing that, right, Like, that's not

1000
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,360
going to get you anywhere because those people are going

1001
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,880
to walk out angry and resentful, and the people that

1002
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:45,920
already agree with you you don't need to change their mind.

1003
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:48,960
And so it just doesn't It doesn't make a lot

1004
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,800
of sense. And so I think what it means is

1005
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,559
that there's a lot of people out there who don't

1006
01:01:56,599 --> 01:01:59,800
go to see art because they don't get anything from

1007
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,639
it and they don't think it's for them. You know,

1008
01:02:03,159 --> 01:02:06,159
they go to museums and they see exhibitions where they're

1009
01:02:06,159 --> 01:02:09,559
being told why the museum is bad, So why are

1010
01:02:09,599 --> 01:02:15,519
they going? You know, it doesn't help them, and so

1011
01:02:15,559 --> 01:02:18,679
they just don't engage with it.

1012
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 2: But it's just everything well yeah.

1013
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 3: But and then what's interesting is what happens is that

1014
01:02:24,519 --> 01:02:27,880
people on the left say, look, how uncultured those people are.

1015
01:02:28,239 --> 01:02:31,119
They don't go see art, right, So it creates this

1016
01:02:31,239 --> 01:02:35,320
feedback loop for everybody, which is that you know, everyone

1017
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:38,000
on the right is uncultured because they don't appreciate art

1018
01:02:38,559 --> 01:02:40,559
because they didn't come to see my piece where I

1019
01:02:40,599 --> 01:02:43,159
tell them how bad they are for not believing what

1020
01:02:43,239 --> 01:02:47,840
I believe, right, Like, it just creates a problem, and

1021
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:52,679
so I think everyone becomes affirmed in that because they say, well, look,

1022
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:54,519
no one came to see my piece doesn't already agree

1023
01:02:54,559 --> 01:02:56,360
with me, and the people didn't see the piece, say well,

1024
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,079
why would I want to sit through that? And so

1025
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:03,840
it just it just it's difficult and and I don't know,

1026
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:06,239
I guess I'm old fashioned, but I feel like if

1027
01:03:06,239 --> 01:03:08,119
you're going to make someone sit down for two and

1028
01:03:08,119 --> 01:03:10,320
a half hours in the theater, be quiet and pay

1029
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,400
attention to what you have to say, you need to

1030
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:17,079
have something worthwhile to say. You know, it's ultimately a

1031
01:03:17,159 --> 01:03:20,599
very hubristic thing that we're doing here, that whatever I

1032
01:03:20,639 --> 01:03:22,519
have is super important. You need to turn off your

1033
01:03:22,519 --> 01:03:24,639
cell phone. You need to fully engage because what I

1034
01:03:24,679 --> 01:03:29,840
had to say deserves your full attention. So when people,

1035
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:32,920
when people enter into that contract with you and you

1036
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:37,039
don't give them anything in return, that's a failure in

1037
01:03:37,079 --> 01:03:40,320
my book, Let's uh.

1038
01:03:40,159 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 2: Let's finish up on this.

1039
01:03:45,119 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: Race is quickly becoming a huge issue, and it has been,

1040
01:03:53,079 --> 01:03:56,360
but I think that now it's even starting to cross

1041
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:03,119
over into you know, like normies are noticing it, your

1042
01:04:03,239 --> 01:04:06,559
grandparents are noticing. Wow, it really seems like they hate

1043
01:04:06,599 --> 01:04:10,800
white people. All these people hate white people. Even white

1044
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:14,480
people on TV hate white people. You talked about during

1045
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,000
the covid ear. There was something going around called white

1046
01:04:17,039 --> 01:04:21,039
People in Theater, a document that was being used to

1047
01:04:22,639 --> 01:04:25,920
taunt and go after people. Can you talk a little

1048
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:26,400
bit about that.

1049
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a document that came out that people

1050
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,239
were sort of asked to sign that had a lot

1051
01:04:41,239 --> 01:04:50,559
of statements about how white people in theater were engaging

1052
01:04:50,559 --> 01:04:55,960
in bad behavior, what they call harmful behavior. Right, that's

1053
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:59,480
the language that the document, that's language people use. And

1054
01:05:00,119 --> 01:05:04,440
there was a ton of pressure in the industry to

1055
01:05:04,519 --> 01:05:13,519
sign this document. It came from companies, it came from individuals,

1056
01:05:13,679 --> 01:05:17,960
it came from academic institutions. At one point, there was

1057
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:21,000
a list published by the people who wrote the document

1058
01:05:21,039 --> 01:05:23,519
of all the people who had not signed, who were

1059
01:05:23,519 --> 01:05:27,320
members of prominent institutions. It was sort of a reup

1060
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:30,280
of like, hey, we published this list, you know, a

1061
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,079
month or so ago, and look at all these people

1062
01:05:32,119 --> 01:05:34,400
who were in charge of the art making spaces that

1063
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:36,440
we engage in who haven't signed the document. Why haven't

1064
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:42,079
you signed the document? And there was no ability to

1065
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:46,679
talk about it. It was sort of hook line and sinker, right.

1066
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:51,000
It was this is the thing. We have made, this thing,

1067
01:05:51,039 --> 01:05:53,719
these are our demands, and you are either fully in

1068
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:58,519
support or you are against us. And there were a

1069
01:05:58,559 --> 01:06:03,480
lot of things in that document weren't necessarily actually about race.

1070
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:08,400
There are practices in the theater and the entertainment industry

1071
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,440
that are predatory, and there were a lot of things

1072
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:16,920
in that document that actually were trying to address predatory practices,

1073
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:27,199
but through a lens that was all about race. And

1074
01:06:27,519 --> 01:06:31,440
it was impossible to have a conversation about that document

1075
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:38,840
because if you didn't agree with it, you were bad, right,

1076
01:06:39,119 --> 01:06:41,360
you were bad. That's the only way to put it.

1077
01:06:43,039 --> 01:06:50,960
And you know, theatrical institutions, entertainment institutions across America would

1078
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,480
sign this with great flourish and post it. You know,

1079
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,840
our entire staff has signed this. We believe you know,

1080
01:06:58,239 --> 01:07:02,880
but really, like that's not how it goes down, right,

1081
01:07:03,239 --> 01:07:08,000
I mean, there was pressure in academia to sign it

1082
01:07:08,039 --> 01:07:12,880
as an institution right, that the institution needed to sign this,

1083
01:07:13,039 --> 01:07:15,880
and therefore all of the people who work at the

1084
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,519
institution would de facto sort of be part of that right.

1085
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:25,519
And there was a lot of discussion around it because

1086
01:07:25,559 --> 01:07:29,079
I think that many people were concerned about the idea

1087
01:07:29,159 --> 01:07:34,440
that people should just sign something. Right. It was a

1088
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:36,519
long dog I mean had a lot in it. You know,

1089
01:07:36,559 --> 01:07:41,920
it was not a short thing. Yeah, I mean, that's

1090
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:43,719
one of those things that I was kind of referring

1091
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:48,000
to that I feel like that sort of thing would

1092
01:07:48,039 --> 01:07:52,559
have happened more had Trump not won, or I'm fearful

1093
01:07:52,559 --> 01:07:55,519
that that sort of thing would have happened more. And

1094
01:07:55,599 --> 01:07:57,920
I you know, I've always sort of been an easy

1095
01:07:58,039 --> 01:08:01,000
with sort of endorsements right from any kind of group

1096
01:08:01,039 --> 01:08:05,960
because it doesn't really represent the panopoly of thought within

1097
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,679
the group. And I don't think that because I work

1098
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:11,400
for a company or I work on a project, that

1099
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,559
I a should be required to adopt the political ideologies

1100
01:08:14,599 --> 01:08:16,640
of that company or the project. I think I'm an

1101
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:18,560
American and I have free speech and I have the

1102
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:22,079
right to my own opinion. But that's not how this works,

1103
01:08:22,159 --> 01:08:26,479
right because once everybody signs, then everybody's now bound by this.

1104
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:33,239
So that was very difficult. You know, not much honestly

1105
01:08:33,319 --> 01:08:37,560
has come of that document after we sort of the

1106
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:42,840
country came through the worst of the COVID issues. It's

1107
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:47,239
sort of fallen out, and I really haven't heard anybody

1108
01:08:47,239 --> 01:08:51,079
refer to it in a while, but I think that

1109
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:53,880
it's still there, right it's still lurking, and I think

1110
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:59,560
that people have still signed it and that exists. Yeah,

1111
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:01,680
that was that was really stressful. There was a period

1112
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:04,039
of time where I was convinced that I would be

1113
01:09:04,079 --> 01:09:06,159
required to sign this thing as a member of the

1114
01:09:06,199 --> 01:09:10,479
institution that I was teaching at. That did not happen ultimately,

1115
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:15,960
but I was really nervous about that because I I

1116
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:21,520
didn't I don't think it was Yeah, I didn't want

1117
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:22,640
to sign it, right, you.

1118
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:30,119
Speaker 1: Know, Well in in academia or in UH, in in entertainment,

1119
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:36,840
is is there open hostility? Is there still that kind

1120
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:42,520
of speech of open hostility of to white people? Because yeah,

1121
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:48,760
the whole colonizer colonial, slave owner fascist, I mean basically

1122
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:53,239
if you can get anybody to understand, you know, and

1123
01:09:53,279 --> 01:09:54,760
I'm not some I'm not one of these people who

1124
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:56,600
was like I need to wake up the normies or

1125
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:00,000
anything like that. I'm if they wake up, that's fine.

1126
01:10:00,079 --> 01:10:02,880
And but you know, I'm just looking for a very

1127
01:10:03,199 --> 01:10:05,520
I look for a very small group to uh to

1128
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:12,199
work with and to organize with. But you know, all

1129
01:10:12,279 --> 01:10:18,600
of those things, slave owner, colonizer, fascist, it's just basically

1130
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:21,479
an excuse to be like, Okay, at some point, we

1131
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:24,239
can kill you, just like we killed Charlie because Charlie,

1132
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:27,640
you know, Charlie was was a fascist and it's and

1133
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:32,159
I'm like, no, I'm way more. I'm way closer to

1134
01:10:32,199 --> 01:10:35,159
a fascist than Charlie was. I considered Charlie to be

1135
01:10:35,199 --> 01:10:39,640
on the left. I mean it's I mean, that's my thinking.

1136
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:42,039
Is anybody who's like a classical liberal, Oh, we can

1137
01:10:42,119 --> 01:10:44,039
talk with our enemies and you know, if we just

1138
01:10:44,039 --> 01:10:48,000
make a better argument. I'm like, that's that. That's not

1139
01:10:48,199 --> 01:10:52,479
thinking that I at one time I held to that,

1140
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:54,960
but you know, my eyes are wide open to the

1141
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,239
fact that you know, people, people want to kill you

1142
01:10:59,399 --> 01:11:02,319
for your opinions, and if they can't kill you, they'll

1143
01:11:02,359 --> 01:11:05,560
be happy to destroy you or destroy somebody close to you,

1144
01:11:06,399 --> 01:11:10,279
and they'll laugh about it.

1145
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I I think that's what is so

1146
01:11:16,159 --> 01:11:24,479
hard about being in the industry, because I think that

1147
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:29,039
that is the emotional truth of it, right, Like I

1148
01:11:29,039 --> 01:11:33,840
mean I said that earlier, But it's hard to sort

1149
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,279
of go to work every day and realize that the

1150
01:11:37,279 --> 01:11:40,920
people around you, if they knew you, if they knew

1151
01:11:42,319 --> 01:11:44,239
if they were willing to have a conversation with you,

1152
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:49,800
they would they would hate you immediately, and and and

1153
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:56,000
it's hard for me because I do feel that the

1154
01:11:56,079 --> 01:11:58,520
people that I've been able to have real conversations with,

1155
01:11:59,159 --> 01:12:05,319
I actually think that there has been movement with some

1156
01:12:05,359 --> 01:12:10,680
of those conversations over time. Sometimes it's taken many, many,

1157
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:15,600
many years, but at least there's the ability to have

1158
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,760
a decent discussion. Of course, it doesn't go anywhere because

1159
01:12:19,039 --> 01:12:23,880
the conversation stays within those two people, but the open

1160
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:27,119
hostility is real. I think you're you're right. I think

1161
01:12:27,199 --> 01:12:29,960
it is very much there. I mean, it's in casual ways, right,

1162
01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:34,520
it's in it's in going into a room and having

1163
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:38,319
everyone say, like, you know, F Trump, and everyone go yeah,

1164
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,359
F Trump, right like, and then that's just sort of

1165
01:12:42,359 --> 01:12:44,319
a thing that happens, and it just happens in the room,

1166
01:12:44,319 --> 01:12:46,359
and everybody's sort of expected to go along with it,

1167
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:48,479
and nobody even looks around to see if it's if

1168
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:51,439
it's a problem for anybody, because there's an assumption that

1169
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:55,479
nobody who matters would feel that way, and they would

1170
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:56,720
definitely not be in this room.

1171
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 2: You know.

1172
01:12:57,239 --> 01:12:59,399
Speaker 3: I had a situation once where I was told in

1173
01:12:59,399 --> 01:13:04,479
a private conversation that I should I should reveal myself

1174
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:07,840
because the community deserved to know what monsters were among us.

1175
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:16,720
This was said to me, and of course I disengage

1176
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:20,199
from that conversation very quickly. But this is I think

1177
01:13:20,239 --> 01:13:24,279
how people feel. Right, you don't agree with me, it's

1178
01:13:24,279 --> 01:13:28,199
okay for me to be hostile, and because I know

1179
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:31,159
that I could never see you as a person who's

1180
01:13:31,239 --> 01:13:34,680
worthy of my time and respect, I'm just going to

1181
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:37,760
be openly hostile and I'm not even gonna think about

1182
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:39,119
the fact that you might be in the room because

1183
01:13:39,159 --> 01:13:43,880
I just know you aren't. So that that sort of

1184
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:51,560
thing happens on a daily basis, and it's, uh, yeah,

1185
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:55,600
it's tough. And I think that hostility towards one race

1186
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:58,079
or another it's all kind of wrapped in together, right,

1187
01:13:58,199 --> 01:14:03,119
I mean, it's I don't know that I've experienced people

1188
01:14:03,159 --> 01:14:08,560
being like openly hostile to me because of my racial

1189
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:13,680
identity necessarily, but it's wrapped up in the identity of

1190
01:14:14,199 --> 01:14:17,399
everything else they talk about, So it doesn't you know,

1191
01:14:17,399 --> 01:14:21,840
they don't have to say that out loud, right, it's

1192
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:26,479
already there because if you're a leftist, you feel a

1193
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:28,720
certain way and everyone feels that way. I mean, this

1194
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:30,640
is The thing that I find so crazy, right, is

1195
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:34,680
that like for political ideology that's supposed to be about

1196
01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:38,640
individualism and expression and all of that, it's not. You know,

1197
01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:43,560
it's like it's totally groupthink, right. You can't question something.

1198
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:46,680
If you question something, then you're automatically not an ally.

1199
01:14:48,279 --> 01:14:53,520
And I don't know. I feel like in conservative circles,

1200
01:14:54,039 --> 01:14:57,560
I think there's a lot more breadth to the thinking.

1201
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:03,159
There's a lot more allowance for being on different places

1202
01:15:03,159 --> 01:15:06,039
on the spectrum, and there's a lot more tolerance for

1203
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:09,239
different points of view around things that's not present in

1204
01:15:09,279 --> 01:15:11,399
the left. So the hostility has to be there because

1205
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:13,479
they have to have a way to weed out who

1206
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:15,720
you are from the get go right. If you don't

1207
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:18,439
participate in the sort of f chorus of f Trump,

1208
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,079
then they look at you sideways, they start watching you right,

1209
01:15:21,119 --> 01:15:23,279
and when you haven't done it four times in a row,

1210
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:25,479
they start to wonder whose side you're on.

1211
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:32,640
Speaker 1: Well, it's unfortunately that's they seem to be a little

1212
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:38,680
more inclusive when it comes to fighting the right. So

1213
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:44,239
one of the reasons why they were able to basically

1214
01:15:44,359 --> 01:15:49,479
take over so many of the institutions is because they

1215
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:51,600
are better at organizing.

1216
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:53,279
Speaker 2: Than the right.

1217
01:15:53,319 --> 01:15:57,239
Speaker 1: Ever, is the right is actually the more individualistic?

1218
01:15:58,279 --> 01:16:01,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, completely, Yeah, I mean they're they're I mean

1219
01:16:02,039 --> 01:16:04,640
I think you know, look, we can we can get

1220
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:07,239
into like the sole communist discussion. But I think the

1221
01:16:07,319 --> 01:16:11,439
mentality is basically the group is more important than the

1222
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:16,119
individual right, and that leads to better organization because you

1223
01:16:16,159 --> 01:16:18,119
don't have to deal with the fact that people, you know,

1224
01:16:18,199 --> 01:16:20,840
everybody sort of goes I'm going to sublimate whatever I

1225
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:24,600
feel towards the group because the cause is more important

1226
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:28,479
than me, right at every at every turn. So it's

1227
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:30,119
going to be easier to get a bunch of people

1228
01:16:30,159 --> 01:16:32,039
to march in the street because they're all sort of

1229
01:16:32,039 --> 01:16:35,960
buying into that ideology that I'm gonna I'm going to

1230
01:16:36,039 --> 01:16:39,880
get there. You know, all the boats rise together, except

1231
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:42,680
they don't, right, Except they don't because it's never enough,

1232
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:45,319
right Because as soon as you've got somebody in the

1233
01:16:45,319 --> 01:16:47,640
collective who says, well, actually this is harmful to me,

1234
01:16:48,079 --> 01:16:52,640
then everybody's got to reorganize around that, right, and it

1235
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:55,520
sort of starts to fracture and splinter. And so the

1236
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:57,760
only way you can keep control of it is by

1237
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:02,039
declaring what people have to think and kind of forcing

1238
01:17:02,079 --> 01:17:04,720
them to think. And of course, as the ideology starts

1239
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:06,680
to splinter and get more ridiculous, you have to declare

1240
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:08,800
people to think even more ridiculous things. So then all

1241
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:10,840
of a sudden you've got people who are like moderate

1242
01:17:11,199 --> 01:17:14,079
right who suddenly found themselves marching in a crowd of

1243
01:17:14,079 --> 01:17:16,479
people who say things that they never would have said.

1244
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:20,920
They never would have said right on their own, but

1245
01:17:21,039 --> 01:17:25,199
because it's a never Trumper, all of a sudden they're saying, yeah,

1246
01:17:25,319 --> 01:17:28,960
let's let's have you know, let's have late term abortion,

1247
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:32,119
right when like they actually never would have said that,

1248
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:35,520
but it's part of the march, so they're going to

1249
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:40,880
do it. Yeah. I don't know. The group think is

1250
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:43,159
really exhausting. It's really really exhausting.

1251
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:47,039
Speaker 1: Well really, the only the problem is is that the

1252
01:17:47,039 --> 01:17:53,560
only way to defeat them is to basically organize like

1253
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:53,920
they do.

1254
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:57,600
Speaker 3: And they do. Yeah, and I think to you know,

1255
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:03,560
I think to be I mean, I struggle with this myself.

1256
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:12,920
Just be braver about it, because the reality is, you know,

1257
01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:15,600
they can sit here and say Trump isn't my president,

1258
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:21,560
but millions of people voted for him, right, So they're

1259
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:25,399
either going to discount millions of people, or they're going

1260
01:18:25,479 --> 01:18:29,079
to have to reckon with the fact that those are

1261
01:18:29,159 --> 01:18:33,319
facts and they've chosen to sort of discount millions of people, right,

1262
01:18:33,359 --> 01:18:34,199
that's kind of what they do.

1263
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:35,920
Speaker 2: This is their history.

1264
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:40,560
Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons why I started studying, and

1265
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:43,239
I tell people to study the Spanish Civil War from

1266
01:18:43,319 --> 01:18:48,119
nineteen thirty six to nineteen thirty nine, because that is

1267
01:18:48,159 --> 01:18:52,680
a war that the It's one of the only wars

1268
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:55,680
in history where the losers got to write the history books.

1269
01:18:56,159 --> 01:18:59,359
Everybody thinks there was this There was this republican form

1270
01:18:59,399 --> 01:19:03,119
of government, and these fascist right wingers like you know,

1271
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:06,600
rose up to overthrow them because they were upset that

1272
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:11,760
they know, these people were communists and they were literally

1273
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:14,600
working with the Soviet Union in the Common tern and

1274
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:18,560
the International and they were anarchists, and their plan was

1275
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:21,960
to kill half the country because they said if they

1276
01:19:22,039 --> 01:19:24,600
killed half the half the country, people would probably stop

1277
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:29,680
being Catholics, you know, because they they killed sixs within

1278
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:31,880
the first six months of the war. They killed six

1279
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:39,000
thousand priests, nuns, seminarians, lay people, and burned down thousands

1280
01:19:39,079 --> 01:19:39,640
of churches.

1281
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:44,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, they have no.

1282
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:50,119
Speaker 1: Problem with alienating millions of people, because when it comes

1283
01:19:50,199 --> 01:19:54,760
down to it, those of us who've studied this well

1284
01:19:55,319 --> 01:19:58,920
know that if it comes to they'll just kill those people.

1285
01:20:00,119 --> 01:20:02,119
The time is going to come when they will just

1286
01:20:02,239 --> 01:20:05,439
put bullets in their heads like they did and you

1287
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:09,079
know in the Katyn forests, and you know, like the

1288
01:20:09,159 --> 01:20:13,399
Russians did in the Katchin Forest to Poles and Lithuanians

1289
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:15,000
and Germans.

1290
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:18,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think you've actually sort of like

1291
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:21,800
you've alluded to something that I think is a big

1292
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:25,239
part of this as well, which is that humans. I mean,

1293
01:20:25,279 --> 01:20:29,319
this is where the faith part comes in. Right. Humans

1294
01:20:29,399 --> 01:20:32,960
have a need to believe in something right, and that

1295
01:20:33,039 --> 01:20:39,119
has been filled historically by a faith. When you have

1296
01:20:39,199 --> 01:20:42,880
a program that removes that, you have to replace it

1297
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:48,000
with something. And you know, these people are you know,

1298
01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:53,560
fanatics because this is their religion, right, and they're willing

1299
01:20:54,159 --> 01:20:57,199
to die for their religion. They're willing to organize for

1300
01:20:57,199 --> 01:21:00,000
the religion. They're willing to kill for their religion because

1301
01:21:00,239 --> 01:21:05,800
that's their belief system. It's these ideologists have replaced a

1302
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:09,039
belief in a higher power, They've replaced a belief in

1303
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:13,560
you know, what have you? Because that hole in a

1304
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:17,720
person has to be filled somewhere. And you know, I'm

1305
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:21,119
getting very religious here, but I really believe that it's important.

1306
01:21:21,279 --> 01:21:23,800
And so I see a lot of people who are

1307
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:26,960
desperate to believe in something, and this ideology comes along

1308
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:28,600
and says, we'll give you something to believe, and we'll

1309
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:30,079
give you something to fight for. We'll pay for you

1310
01:21:30,159 --> 01:21:31,960
to do it. You'll have a lot of friends, you'll

1311
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:34,039
be really popular, you'll be on the right side of history,

1312
01:21:34,079 --> 01:21:36,680
et cetera. And people buy it, hook line and sinker.

1313
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:36,960
Speaker 2: Right.

1314
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:40,600
Speaker 3: It supplies the need inside of them to believe in

1315
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:44,760
something greater than themselves, and that's been stripped away from them,

1316
01:21:45,159 --> 01:21:48,159
right because they haven't been raised in a society where

1317
01:21:48,159 --> 01:21:50,039
they're given access to faith.

1318
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

1319
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 1: The whole idea of going to war with the Yeah,

1320
01:22:00,039 --> 01:22:02,000
you have another religion, so you have to go to

1321
01:22:02,079 --> 01:22:05,479
war with the existing religion is uh, you know, a

1322
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:08,760
tale as old as time. You know, it used to

1323
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:14,640
be Protestants and Catholics, or Catholics in Catholics, or or

1324
01:22:15,279 --> 01:22:19,199
you know, just choose, you know, or you know, obviously

1325
01:22:20,359 --> 01:22:23,640
you know, when it comes to like historic Spain, the

1326
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:30,199
Caliphate takeover and yeah, I mean this is I don't

1327
01:22:30,399 --> 01:22:33,000
you know, my friend Charles Haywood makes a really good point.

1328
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:36,199
He's like, I don't know, when you say it's a religion,

1329
01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:39,119
you don't know how many how many of these people

1330
01:22:39,159 --> 01:22:42,359
are willing to die for it. And that's usually you know,

1331
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:48,159
martyrdom is probably the best, the best predictor of whether

1332
01:22:48,239 --> 01:22:50,560
somebody is in a religion or not they're willing to

1333
01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:52,840
die for it. But I think in the last couple

1334
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:57,319
of years we've seen that the the radicals are and

1335
01:22:57,359 --> 01:23:01,840
they're they're willing to kill into a you know, into

1336
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:05,760
Christian schools and Catholic schools, kill and have their own

1337
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:10,520
lives taken from them or taking their own lives. So yeah,

1338
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:14,520
I mean the religion itself is you know, once you

1339
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:18,000
understand that it is a religion to them, then you

1340
01:23:18,399 --> 01:23:22,840
understand why they have They have this what they believe

1341
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:25,720
is a mandate to destroy all the other religions that

1342
01:23:25,760 --> 01:23:27,680
would possibly compete with them.

1343
01:23:28,159 --> 01:23:31,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that this is what young you know,

1344
01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:34,000
I think it's appealing to young people because they're looking

1345
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:36,800
for something to believe in and they see this thing

1346
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:39,199
and it seems to check all the boxes that they've

1347
01:23:39,199 --> 01:23:42,960
been indoctrinated in to believe, you know, and they they

1348
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:48,800
they're so I find that young people today are just

1349
01:23:49,159 --> 01:23:54,520
they're incredibly ignorant about faith. They're incredibly ignorant about church.

1350
01:23:56,159 --> 01:23:58,399
And I don't really mean to specifics of dominomination. I

1351
01:23:58,399 --> 01:24:02,319
think they're just incredibly ignorant about the Christian faith. They

1352
01:24:02,319 --> 01:24:04,960
don't know anything about it that, you know. I think

1353
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:08,319
that they're growing up somewhere where everybody was sort of

1354
01:24:08,399 --> 01:24:10,359
nominally Christian. Right. There were a lot of people that

1355
01:24:10,399 --> 01:24:15,000
I knew who knew a lot about religion but sort

1356
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:16,920
of chose not to engage with it. You know. They

1357
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:20,880
were sort of like self styling agnostic or atheist. But

1358
01:24:21,039 --> 01:24:23,119
it wasn't because they didn't understand or had never heard

1359
01:24:23,159 --> 01:24:25,039
of it. They just didn't want to engage in it

1360
01:24:25,039 --> 01:24:26,800
because it was inconvenient for them in some way.

1361
01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:27,079
Speaker 2: Right.

1362
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:28,800
Speaker 3: But I think there are a lot of people now

1363
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:32,960
who literally do not know anything about it because I

1364
01:24:33,039 --> 01:24:36,640
think our culture has succeeded in erasing it from a

1365
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:38,960
lot of places where these young people would have accessed

1366
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:42,079
it earlier. The home, the school, all those places, right,

1367
01:24:42,159 --> 01:24:45,720
civic events. They just it's you know that when I

1368
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:50,000
have discussed things with younger people or even people in

1369
01:24:50,039 --> 01:24:53,000
the industry. It's astonishing to me that they just have

1370
01:24:53,119 --> 01:24:57,960
a complete ignorance of the facts in the historical significance

1371
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:04,159
of religion. And it's funny because you you do plays

1372
01:25:04,159 --> 01:25:08,000
that have a lot of references from the Bible in them,

1373
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:10,520
and they don't they don't even know their references.

1374
01:25:12,199 --> 01:25:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's they don't realize that the basically they live

1375
01:25:16,039 --> 01:25:17,640
in a Christian culture.

1376
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:21,479
Speaker 3: Correct, And they're curious there. They're they're weirdly curious about it,

1377
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:24,000
Like it's almost like learning about a new culture to them,

1378
01:25:24,399 --> 01:25:27,079
which can be exciting, I guess in those moments when

1379
01:25:27,079 --> 01:25:30,640
they demonstrate some real curiosity, but it's alarming. It's alarming

1380
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:33,760
to realize how much they don't know about their culture.

1381
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:35,439
And you know, if you don't know what your culture is,

1382
01:25:35,479 --> 01:25:40,319
you can't you can't engage in it. I think that

1383
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:44,319
like there's all this questions around what is American culture

1384
01:25:44,399 --> 01:25:46,279
right now? And I think we have a lot of

1385
01:25:46,319 --> 01:25:51,960
other cultures that are living here in America, and people

1386
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:56,159
are confused because they they have been told that they're

1387
01:25:56,199 --> 01:26:00,359
not allowed to want their culture right, They're suppose to

1388
01:26:01,239 --> 01:26:04,319
have other cultures. They're supposed to be open to other things.

1389
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:07,039
Speaker 1: Well, you're not allowed to have your own culture if

1390
01:26:07,079 --> 01:26:09,279
you're white. Basically, that's the main.

1391
01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:13,000
Speaker 3: Thing is Yeah, So I mean I think I think

1392
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:19,119
this is confusing to people because they they don't they

1393
01:26:19,119 --> 01:26:22,039
can see their other things are not their culture. I mean,

1394
01:26:22,079 --> 01:26:24,520
I just watch it be confusing to people. I find

1395
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:29,079
it confusing because why is it okay to celebrate other

1396
01:26:29,119 --> 01:26:34,560
people's cultures in a culture? You know, like, why why

1397
01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:36,600
is it not okay to go to those places and

1398
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:39,920
bring my culture, but it's okay to bring their culture

1399
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:40,399
to mine?

1400
01:26:42,159 --> 01:26:47,239
Speaker 1: White, white, white culture, especially white Northern European culture, has

1401
01:26:47,279 --> 01:26:53,439
always been very open and very because they're basic, that's

1402
01:26:53,479 --> 01:26:57,359
the way they are. But when you start introducing other cultures,

1403
01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:02,520
because the because they are what European culture, and European

1404
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:07,359
culture is open and other cultures are not, they're very insular.

1405
01:27:08,239 --> 01:27:12,600
It's very easy for insular outside in culture is to

1406
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:17,319
dominate a culture of openness, especially when you know it

1407
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:20,279
really it's seen as a as a faux power.

1408
01:27:20,359 --> 01:27:21,199
Speaker 2: It's seen as.

1409
01:27:21,119 --> 01:27:25,439
Speaker 1: Rude to you know, go after somebody else's culture. And

1410
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:28,199
I know a lot of people blame this on Christianity,

1411
01:27:28,319 --> 01:27:31,479
And I mean, I don't think I don't think this

1412
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:33,520
has a lot to do with the Enlightenment too, which

1413
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:36,199
was a complete rebellion against Christianity.

1414
01:27:36,680 --> 01:27:39,399
Speaker 2: But the on that.

1415
01:27:39,399 --> 01:27:44,640
Speaker 3: I think you would I absolutely agree that. I I I. Yeah,

1416
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:46,520
I think a lot of this can be traced back

1417
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:48,319
to the Enlightenment. I think you're right about that.

1418
01:27:50,079 --> 01:27:52,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was just basically you're trying to

1419
01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:58,840
you're trying to have Christianity without Christ and you know,

1420
01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:02,399
you can have your own your own beliefs, your own religion,

1421
01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:07,199
you're your own God, and yeah, that just doesn't that

1422
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:15,239
doesn't historically work. I mean you're trying to force something

1423
01:28:15,319 --> 01:28:18,600
upon people who you know, for thousands and thousands of

1424
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:24,840
years have lived have been either monotheists or polytheist and

1425
01:28:25,039 --> 01:28:28,399
the concept of no, now you have to worship yourself.

1426
01:28:28,479 --> 01:28:33,680
While that goes, that ends, it turns out that that

1427
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:37,199
you end up in a bad place often when when

1428
01:28:37,279 --> 01:28:40,960
you're your own God and you have the culture of

1429
01:28:41,239 --> 01:28:42,640
little gods running around.

1430
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:47,159
Speaker 3: Well, and I think often, I think often of C. S.

1431
01:28:47,239 --> 01:28:50,800
Lewis's argument for why one should believe in a religion

1432
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:55,800
right when when sort of asked why one should believe

1433
01:28:55,840 --> 01:28:58,159
in a god if you can't prove it, right, That's

1434
01:28:58,199 --> 01:28:59,760
a common thing people say, well, you can't prove it

1435
01:28:59,760 --> 01:29:00,079
to me.

1436
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:00,920
Speaker 1: And C. S.

1437
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:03,560
Speaker 3: Lewis says, but wouldn't it be better right to live

1438
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:06,720
in hope than to live in a world where like

1439
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:10,680
the best it gets is me? And I think that

1440
01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:13,439
what he's getting to in that is this human condition,

1441
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:21,079
right that like, if we're worshiping ourselves, how horrible, how

1442
01:29:21,079 --> 01:29:25,680
absolutely horrible. I mean, I fail all the time. I'm

1443
01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:28,279
a disaster. I think, just like from a psychological point

1444
01:29:28,279 --> 01:29:30,600
of view, that's such a bad idea, and it does

1445
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:33,000
lead to a really dark place. Never mind the truth

1446
01:29:33,039 --> 01:29:34,760
of the matter, never mind the truth of the universe

1447
01:29:34,840 --> 01:29:36,560
or God or all that stuff. It just leads to

1448
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:38,720
a really terrible place. And I think this is what

1449
01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:41,079
happens with people on social media, is what happens with

1450
01:29:41,119 --> 01:29:44,560
young people today, right, because they hold up these people

1451
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:47,760
as look, here's the true believer, here's the guy who's

1452
01:29:47,760 --> 01:29:49,600
going to lead us out of the darkness, and then

1453
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:53,079
that person fails, and then the only option they have

1454
01:29:53,319 --> 01:29:56,520
is to cancel that person and find another perfect person

1455
01:29:56,760 --> 01:29:59,640
who then lives in fear of becoming imperfect, because if

1456
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:03,319
you were up yourself. When you become imperfect, you are

1457
01:30:03,319 --> 01:30:07,239
no longer worthy of worship, right, and it just creates

1458
01:30:07,279 --> 01:30:13,760
this horrible cycle. So I completely agree with that assessment

1459
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:14,520
of the Enlightenment.

1460
01:30:14,880 --> 01:30:19,079
Speaker 1: I have to say, well, if we're if, if we're

1461
01:30:19,119 --> 01:30:21,520
agreed on the Enlightenment, I don't know where else there

1462
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:25,439
is to go because getting getting people to agree on

1463
01:30:25,479 --> 01:30:28,520
the Enlightenment in this day and age is uh, it's

1464
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:30,520
hard enough when you when you bring it up. It's

1465
01:30:30,560 --> 01:30:35,520
like bringing up bringing up the Constitution. Sure, the Constitution

1466
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:39,279
was a you know, a pretty decent document for its day,

1467
01:30:39,399 --> 01:30:43,479
but you know, if you if you're not, if there's

1468
01:30:43,520 --> 01:30:45,920
no one there to enforce it, you know, you just

1469
01:30:46,039 --> 01:30:50,560
basically have paper, a paper that you're waving around or

1470
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:54,520
you know. It's like famously people say, you know, Liberia

1471
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:58,000
has our Constitution and it's one of the worst places

1472
01:30:58,000 --> 01:30:58,880
in the world to live.

1473
01:31:00,079 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah.

1474
01:31:01,479 --> 01:31:05,159
Speaker 3: I think this gets into ideas around statehood, right, that like,

1475
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:08,159
in order for a state to exist, it has to

1476
01:31:08,159 --> 01:31:10,920
be able to perpetuate itself. And I think so much

1477
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:14,279
about what is happening in leftist ideology seeks to dismantle

1478
01:31:14,319 --> 01:31:17,640
the idea that one is allowed to perpetuate one's existence,

1479
01:31:18,479 --> 01:31:22,640
and this is counter to the ability to exist, right, Like,

1480
01:31:23,159 --> 01:31:27,399
if I can't assert myself as separate from you and

1481
01:31:27,479 --> 01:31:33,439
assert my right to be myself, then what's the point?

1482
01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:37,920
And what I see is a lot of left is

1483
01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:42,239
ideology sort of saying you don't get to be you,

1484
01:31:42,239 --> 01:31:47,359
you don't get to assert your your selfness here. Right,

1485
01:31:47,960 --> 01:31:50,199
I'm going to decide who gets to be perpetuated and

1486
01:31:50,199 --> 01:31:53,479
who doesn't. And you know, I have a lot of

1487
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:56,039
arguments with my friends about this and say, like, you know,

1488
01:31:56,159 --> 01:32:01,239
if if we don't have the ability to be an entity,

1489
01:32:01,600 --> 01:32:03,920
then we will cease to exist as an entity in

1490
01:32:03,960 --> 01:32:06,720
all of those things that you love about this entity,

1491
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:09,039
all of those rights and freedoms that you want so

1492
01:32:09,159 --> 01:32:12,359
badly will go away because there will be no entity

1493
01:32:12,439 --> 01:32:16,520
to enforce them. And this is the great problem I

1494
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:22,439
think inherent in the ideology. You know, Yeah, you know

1495
01:32:22,479 --> 01:32:25,359
you're allowed to protest because you have an entity that

1496
01:32:25,399 --> 01:32:28,000
protects your right to protest. If you really were in

1497
01:32:28,079 --> 01:32:30,039
the kind of society that you say you want to be,

1498
01:32:30,079 --> 01:32:31,840
and you would not be allowed to say what you say.

1499
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:37,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's also the whole idea that you're you're

1500
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:41,439
always going to be in charge, you know, when you

1501
01:32:42,159 --> 01:32:43,960
you know, that's why you know a lot of people

1502
01:32:44,039 --> 01:32:49,239
are like, well if Trump doesn't and I don't think

1503
01:32:49,279 --> 01:32:53,479
he's going to destroy the left, they're going to get

1504
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:56,439
you know, if not in twenty twenty eight, one day,

1505
01:32:56,479 --> 01:33:00,399
they are going to get back in power. And when

1506
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:03,520
they get back in power, they're going to be looking

1507
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:07,319
to punish people. And when I say punish people, I mean,

1508
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:13,199
you know, beyond throwing them in jail for like January six. Now,

1509
01:33:13,199 --> 01:33:16,000
it's going to be it's going to be a little

1510
01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:17,359
more historic than that.

1511
01:33:17,640 --> 01:33:19,359
Speaker 2: I'll just so I'll say that much.

1512
01:33:20,319 --> 01:33:22,760
Speaker 3: Well, I think you know, we're I think we already

1513
01:33:22,800 --> 01:33:29,319
see this in the UK, right, I mean we've seen

1514
01:33:29,399 --> 01:33:33,319
this idea that people are getting arrested in the United

1515
01:33:33,399 --> 01:33:37,720
Kingdom for what they say, right, and that's a country

1516
01:33:37,720 --> 01:33:40,640
that doesn't have the same free speech guarantees that our

1517
01:33:40,680 --> 01:33:46,199
country has, but they're not that far away. And when

1518
01:33:46,239 --> 01:33:49,960
you've got people who are being fined and put in

1519
01:33:50,079 --> 01:33:56,960
jail for what they say online, that's you know, that's

1520
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:03,000
that's not good. Like, that's not a good situation. I mean,

1521
01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:08,399
it's happening in England, right, like, I think that you're

1522
01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:13,479
not wrong that the next round will be more significant.

1523
01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:20,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we can see our future by looking over there.

1524
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:27,600
Although I'm hoping that they rise up and they start

1525
01:34:27,640 --> 01:34:34,920
to say no. And yeah, eighteen forty eight saw all

1526
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:41,319
of these it's basically international rebellion, rebellions in all these

1527
01:34:41,359 --> 01:34:47,159
countries and leftist coded and I think that the spirit

1528
01:34:47,199 --> 01:34:53,680
of eighteen forty eight, if it happens, it'll eventually happen.

1529
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:57,680
But once it happens, like in one country, it's going

1530
01:34:57,720 --> 01:35:01,680
to spread because that's just how how it works. And

1531
01:35:02,399 --> 01:35:04,760
most of Europe is screwed. I mean, I haven't been

1532
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:08,239
to Europe in a couple of decades, but you know,

1533
01:35:08,279 --> 01:35:12,439
when I went there, it was it wasn't that you

1534
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:16,560
didn't have this and to see it like this is uh,

1535
01:35:16,760 --> 01:35:19,199
you know, it is pretty horrible. I mean, I I

1536
01:35:20,359 --> 01:35:21,920
there are places I want to go in Europe, and

1537
01:35:21,960 --> 01:35:26,000
I probably will despite the way it is there, but

1538
01:35:27,199 --> 01:35:32,239
you know, it's it's I very often find myself much

1539
01:35:32,279 --> 01:35:36,159
more upset with the situation in England than I do

1540
01:35:36,279 --> 01:35:41,079
in my own country because it is so horrific and

1541
01:35:42,880 --> 01:35:47,399
just dystopian already that when I hear the stories. I

1542
01:35:48,159 --> 01:35:52,479
you know, I'm like, Okay, well we need to invade

1543
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:56,960
England and overthrow their government and set the people free.

1544
01:35:57,760 --> 01:36:01,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean obvious, obviously, even

1545
01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:05,920
this conversation like that, you know, we we have we

1546
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:08,079
have things that we agree on and things that I

1547
01:36:08,079 --> 01:36:10,439
think we may have slightly different points of view on,

1548
01:36:10,600 --> 01:36:13,239
but but the ability to sort of be able to

1549
01:36:13,279 --> 01:36:17,960
talk about that and it is precious, I think. I mean,

1550
01:36:18,560 --> 01:36:22,920
I I think I would fall into the category that like,

1551
01:36:23,039 --> 01:36:27,439
I definitely still want to talk to people. I hear,

1552
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:30,479
I hear your I hear where you are on that,

1553
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:32,880
and I think that it can There are days when

1554
01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:35,039
I feel like, what is the point it is? You know,

1555
01:36:35,199 --> 01:36:38,000
I should just quit? And then I think about the

1556
01:36:38,079 --> 01:36:41,079
few people that I've met in my industry who we've

1557
01:36:41,079 --> 01:36:46,319
found each other, and it's been really affirming. And I

1558
01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:48,760
don't really like using that word, but that's the word

1559
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:53,039
I use. I guess it's been really affirming to be like, oh,

1560
01:36:53,079 --> 01:36:59,000
I'm not alone, you know. And so I think to myself, Gosh,

1561
01:36:59,039 --> 01:37:03,880
like I should stay right, I should keep fighting this way.

1562
01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:08,800
I should keep trying my best. I should keep holding

1563
01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:13,880
close and revealing when I can to people because if

1564
01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:15,920
I do it for one person, then someone else will

1565
01:37:15,960 --> 01:37:17,520
do it for another person, and before you know it,

1566
01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:20,600
there'll be a lot more of us. And I think

1567
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:23,119
that what I want people to know on the other

1568
01:37:23,600 --> 01:37:26,319
side is that there are a lot of us. We're

1569
01:37:26,359 --> 01:37:30,239
not some weird person stuck in a basement who's never

1570
01:37:30,279 --> 01:37:36,479
seen the sun like we are real people who have

1571
01:37:37,239 --> 01:37:41,239
beliefs that are not crazy. And there's a lot of

1572
01:37:41,239 --> 01:37:43,319
people who think this way. It's not some sort of

1573
01:37:43,399 --> 01:37:46,319
marginalized thing that you can put in a corner and say, oh,

1574
01:37:46,359 --> 01:37:51,039
those right wingers are all are all nutty, terrible people.

1575
01:37:51,079 --> 01:37:54,199
And I think that a lot of a lot of

1576
01:37:55,359 --> 01:37:59,439
moderates in the middle are stuck. Right moderates who traditionally

1577
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:04,279
have voted Democratic are stuck because they they're not comfortable

1578
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:07,560
with the rhetoric they see, but they don't know how

1579
01:38:07,600 --> 01:38:09,840
to be on the right. They don't know how to

1580
01:38:09,840 --> 01:38:12,479
be conservative because everything in their being, everything in their

1581
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:15,920
in their upbringing, tells them that they're not allowed to

1582
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:22,199
be conservative. And those people are sort of getting lost.

1583
01:38:22,239 --> 01:38:24,079
And those people are the people that I'm sort of

1584
01:38:24,159 --> 01:38:28,479
interested in talking with if they're willing to listen. I

1585
01:38:28,479 --> 01:38:30,279
think those are the people that Charlie Kirk was interested

1586
01:38:30,279 --> 01:38:31,079
in talking to too.

1587
01:38:31,319 --> 01:38:35,159
Speaker 1: You know, well, I mean, I just don't believe in democracy.

1588
01:38:35,359 --> 01:38:42,600
So my big thing is is I don't really, like

1589
01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:45,920
I think I said earlier, waking up waking up people

1590
01:38:46,319 --> 01:38:49,880
on moss if I can help that, help them with

1591
01:38:49,960 --> 01:38:53,279
that so that they can understand how the world works

1592
01:38:53,359 --> 01:38:55,840
and better navigate it.

1593
01:38:56,000 --> 01:38:57,920
Speaker 2: Sure, But as far as like.

1594
01:38:59,560 --> 01:39:01,720
Speaker 1: We're going to sing for the future, and when I

1595
01:39:01,760 --> 01:39:05,159
say organizing, I mean like, you know, having a trusted

1596
01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:09,399
a trusted group that you know that is seeking to

1597
01:39:10,439 --> 01:39:13,520
you know, make plans for the future and make plans

1598
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:17,439
to uh to protect, to protect each other in the

1599
01:39:18,319 --> 01:39:22,199
in the event that things get you know, get worse,

1600
01:39:22,399 --> 01:39:26,359
which they probably are. Then I'm not really interested in, like,

1601
01:39:27,079 --> 01:39:32,279
I'm more interested in having conversations with people who think

1602
01:39:32,359 --> 01:39:34,640
like I do or almost think like I do, than

1603
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:35,880
people who are in the middle.

1604
01:39:36,399 --> 01:39:37,720
Speaker 2: And you know, one of.

1605
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:41,079
Speaker 1: The things that I know from from reading a very

1606
01:39:41,079 --> 01:39:45,399
famous book in a book that that you're really not

1607
01:39:46,000 --> 01:39:49,119
you shouldn't if you told people you read it, they'd

1608
01:39:49,119 --> 01:39:53,039
want to know why is that you know this person

1609
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:58,439
would go to work and convince his co workers of

1610
01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:02,279
his arguments, and he leave that day and feel like

1611
01:40:02,319 --> 01:40:05,079
he accomplished something, and then he come back the next

1612
01:40:05,159 --> 01:40:08,920
day and they forgot everything he said. So, you know,

1613
01:40:09,119 --> 01:40:12,600
I'm very I've become very selective with the people that

1614
01:40:12,680 --> 01:40:16,159
I'm going to give my time to put it that way,

1615
01:40:16,159 --> 01:40:19,119
that I'm going to spend any any time with that uh,

1616
01:40:20,600 --> 01:40:24,520
you know that, you know, to try to make allies with.

1617
01:40:24,920 --> 01:40:27,399
I'm way more interested in making allies with people who

1618
01:40:27,439 --> 01:40:30,800
are who I believe, who we pretty much believe the

1619
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:35,039
same thing, or are pretty close than anyone who is

1620
01:40:35,079 --> 01:40:38,359
in the middle and you know, would still consider to

1621
01:40:38,479 --> 01:40:42,199
vote for like a Democrat or even think that voting

1622
01:40:42,319 --> 01:40:46,239
is going to change anything at all at this point. So,

1623
01:40:46,359 --> 01:40:48,359
I mean, that's just that's just where I am. I mean,

1624
01:40:48,359 --> 01:40:52,439
I'm I've been doing this for a very long time,

1625
01:40:52,479 --> 01:40:55,680
and I've talked to a lot of people, and I've

1626
01:40:55,720 --> 01:40:59,000
made the mistake of talking to people that I didn't

1627
01:40:59,039 --> 01:41:03,039
agree with before, and it usually does not turn out well.

1628
01:41:03,960 --> 01:41:10,039
And I try to be as as gracious a host

1629
01:41:10,079 --> 01:41:13,239
as possible. But you know, for the most part, I

1630
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:19,000
find that at this point the danger is so great

1631
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:26,640
that aligning Allying with people who you know pretty much

1632
01:41:26,800 --> 01:41:31,920
are on your side at least ninety percent and even

1633
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:37,119
higher is probably the smartest thing to do because there's

1634
01:41:37,119 --> 01:41:39,279
a lot of people out there that will just turn.

1635
01:41:39,079 --> 01:41:40,119
Speaker 2: On you like a dime.

1636
01:41:40,880 --> 01:41:44,680
Speaker 1: And we live in a dangerous world where you know,

1637
01:41:44,800 --> 01:41:47,239
people go to debate on campuses and get shot.

1638
01:41:48,439 --> 01:41:51,760
Speaker 3: Well, that is certainly true. I think that it's difficult

1639
01:41:51,840 --> 01:41:58,439
to know where you can have the conversations. And I

1640
01:41:59,000 --> 01:42:09,880
think because it's such a extreme reaction to things that

1641
01:42:09,920 --> 01:42:14,800
are disparate viewpoints, like there isn't room to sort of say,

1642
01:42:14,880 --> 01:42:17,319
oh wow, like I don't I don't like that thing,

1643
01:42:17,439 --> 01:42:19,479
so I'm gonna I'm not gonna engage with it, but

1644
01:42:19,600 --> 01:42:22,359
it can be over there, like you're You're right about

1645
01:42:22,359 --> 01:42:26,760
that that people don't allow the thing to exist. So

1646
01:42:27,560 --> 01:42:30,800
if you have a viewpoint that they don't love, then

1647
01:42:30,840 --> 01:42:33,079
they're gonna they're gonna come after you. They're gonna come

1648
01:42:33,119 --> 01:42:35,159
after you really hard because they need it to go away.

1649
01:42:35,199 --> 01:42:37,760
It threatens them so much that they it can't exist

1650
01:42:38,119 --> 01:42:41,880
in their world. And you're right about that that they

1651
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:44,479
will do anything they can. They will come after your family,

1652
01:42:44,479 --> 01:42:48,520
they will come after you personally, they will post you online,

1653
01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:52,279
they will do whatever it takes to rid themselves of you.

1654
01:42:56,119 --> 01:42:59,359
And it's yeah, yeah, it's I mean that that's what's

1655
01:42:59,560 --> 01:43:06,800
that's what's so hard, because that's true about about all

1656
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:12,960
these relationships that I'm aware that it is very tenuous,

1657
01:43:14,520 --> 01:43:18,279
and I'd like to think that if people know me

1658
01:43:18,880 --> 01:43:21,640
as a person, they would be able to get past that.

1659
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:26,479
But I just don't know that that's true. I mean,

1660
01:43:26,560 --> 01:43:29,319
it doesn't seem true, and that makes me really sad.

1661
01:43:30,319 --> 01:43:36,439
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I was where I was where you are.

1662
01:43:37,920 --> 01:43:40,680
I was where you are years ago, so it got up.

1663
01:43:42,960 --> 01:43:46,600
I've gotten past the the sadness part now and I'm

1664
01:43:46,680 --> 01:43:48,640
just at the you know, I went through all the

1665
01:43:48,680 --> 01:43:52,439
stages of denial and I'm on the other I'm on

1666
01:43:52,479 --> 01:43:55,800
the other side going okay, I really just I want

1667
01:43:55,840 --> 01:43:58,880
to concentrate on people that that I know, and people

1668
01:43:58,920 --> 01:44:02,079
who who I can trust, people that I know I

1669
01:44:02,119 --> 01:44:05,800
can trust, and you know, trying to convince people. You know,

1670
01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:08,000
people think because I have a podcast, I'm trying to

1671
01:44:08,039 --> 01:44:11,880
convince people, trying to help people. You know, I realize

1672
01:44:11,920 --> 01:44:15,399
it probably you know, less than one percent of the

1673
01:44:15,399 --> 01:44:19,359
people that that here that listen to this will probably

1674
01:44:19,399 --> 01:44:24,359
probably ever meet in person and everything, but you know,

1675
01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:27,520
I want to help them understand what the world looks

1676
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:31,600
like and help them understand exactly how the world operates

1677
01:44:31,640 --> 01:44:34,840
so that they can they can thrive as best they can,

1678
01:44:34,920 --> 01:44:36,880
because I think if they're listening to me, we have

1679
01:44:37,079 --> 01:44:39,239
we have a lot in common. But when it comes

1680
01:44:39,319 --> 01:44:42,479
right down to it, those people should be finding people

1681
01:44:42,640 --> 01:44:47,720
in their area to ally with, you know, like I'm like,

1682
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:52,039
we do here and then you you go from there.

1683
01:44:52,520 --> 01:44:57,239
So you know, I I would never tell anybody.

1684
01:45:00,319 --> 01:45:02,239
Speaker 2: Don't don't listen.

1685
01:45:02,399 --> 01:45:05,439
Speaker 1: I mean, it goes against my you know, why I

1686
01:45:05,479 --> 01:45:07,520
do this and everything because I think I put valuable

1687
01:45:07,560 --> 01:45:10,279
information out there and have good conversations with people like

1688
01:45:10,319 --> 01:45:12,720
you who you know, I haven't had a conversation like

1689
01:45:12,760 --> 01:45:14,720
this in a very in a very long time with

1690
01:45:14,800 --> 01:45:20,520
somebody who is actually in in the you know, behind

1691
01:45:20,680 --> 01:45:23,920
enemy lines really and talking about behind the enemy lines.

1692
01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:27,319
But you know, I want them, I want anyone who's

1693
01:45:27,399 --> 01:45:32,800
listening to to be able to thrive. And even those

1694
01:45:32,800 --> 01:45:36,640
people that hate listen, you know, I have a you know,

1695
01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:40,439
I hope they I can convince them of something something

1696
01:45:40,479 --> 01:45:40,920
one day.

1697
01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:49,079
Speaker 3: Who knows, Yeah, it's certainly interesting. I feel like I

1698
01:45:49,119 --> 01:45:52,640
feel I don't know. I wake up some days and

1699
01:45:52,680 --> 01:45:55,920
I feel like I there's something, there's hope, And then

1700
01:45:55,960 --> 01:45:57,840
I wake up some days and I think, what, what's

1701
01:45:57,960 --> 01:46:03,239
it's it's all sort of hopeless. But I don't know.

1702
01:46:03,319 --> 01:46:05,039
I think I have to figure I think I have

1703
01:46:05,079 --> 01:46:11,600
to find a reason to keep going. I guess, yeah,

1704
01:46:12,239 --> 01:46:13,520
it's a lot to think about. It's a lot to

1705
01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:18,520
think about. I think, I don't know. I'm not making

1706
01:46:18,560 --> 01:46:19,439
much sense about that now.

1707
01:46:19,479 --> 01:46:26,359
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, we've been going a while, so we

1708
01:46:26,399 --> 01:46:31,359
should we should probably uh probably end this and go

1709
01:46:31,439 --> 01:46:35,399
on with go on with what we're doing and everything

1710
01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:38,439
like that. But it was very nice talking to you.

1711
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:41,640
I really hope that people get a lot out of

1712
01:46:41,640 --> 01:46:44,319
this and at least get a peek behind the curtain,

1713
01:46:44,399 --> 01:46:46,840
because I know a lot of the people who you

1714
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:51,359
know myself, I have gotten to the point where I

1715
01:46:51,399 --> 01:46:55,880
can put myself in a bubble and not have to

1716
01:46:55,960 --> 01:47:01,000
engage with this at all, engage with people like you

1717
01:47:01,079 --> 01:47:03,239
have to engage with on it on a daily basis.

1718
01:47:03,279 --> 01:47:06,279
But you know, to hear it from to hear it

1719
01:47:06,319 --> 01:47:10,840
from somebody who's who's doing it and who is you know,

1720
01:47:11,079 --> 01:47:15,600
thriving in it, you know, just you know, what I

1721
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:19,119
would say is, uh, just keep a play, your cards

1722
01:47:19,159 --> 01:47:23,039
close to your vest and do not as best you

1723
01:47:23,159 --> 01:47:31,159
can as things get worse, because they will. Just you know,

1724
01:47:32,199 --> 01:47:33,359
be as careful as you can.

1725
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:36,920
Speaker 3: I think that sums it up pretty well.

1726
01:47:37,960 --> 01:47:40,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Claire, thank you so much for the

1727
01:47:40,920 --> 01:47:41,920
talk and.

1728
01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:45,720
Speaker 2: My best to you. Maybe we'll talk again sometimes.

1729
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:47,279
Speaker 3: Thanks so much