WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:01.120 And progosion. 2 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:06.360 All of a sudden is you know, in the limelight. 3 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:11.560 He officially is, you know, the founder of Wagner. He's 4 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:17.800 in Putin's good graces, and he starts promising ever bigger things. 5 00:00:18.120 --> 00:00:22.280 He eventually promises bach Moot that he's going to take 6 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:27.440 bach Moot. And the mod too is looking to get 7 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:29.679 as many guys as they can now for the front, 8 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.119 and so they start leaning on Wagner as this kind 9 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:38.880 of brand of you know, cool guys in the Russian 10 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:42.079 context of you know, to bring in men to recruit. 11 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:44.960 And so the billboards are going up across Russia. Joined 12 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:53.880 PMC Wagner, so he's recruiting new volunteers and then he 13 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:57.399 gets access to Russia's prison population. 14 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:02.679 The Project K. Project K. The average person today is 15 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:06.239 feeling the financial strain more than ever. Expenses are up, 16 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:09.200 wages aren't keeping pace, and many people are finding it 17 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:12.920 nearly impossible to make ends meet with little leftover for 18 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:15.879 covering the basics. It's no surprise that many are resorting 19 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:19.079 to credit cards just to get by, often carrying high 20 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:22.760 balances and interest rates. 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So thanks to ghost Bed and 64 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:35.159 check them out. 65 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:49.800 Special Operations Cobert Ops, SB and I The Teamhouse with 66 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:54.439 your hopes. Jack Murphy and David Park. 67 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:02.000 Hi, everyone is episode three hundred and thirty one of 68 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:05.159 The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here today with journalist 69 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:08.599 and author John Leckner. He's the author of Death Is 70 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:13.120 Our Business, which came out just yesterday. It's probably it 71 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:16.680 is the most comprehensive biography of the Wagner Group, a 72 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:21.040 Russian private military company. I just finished reading this book 73 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:24.639 this week. It's pretty incredible. There's a lot of stuff 74 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:27.839 for us to go through in here, with some very 75 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:31.439 colorful characters. Yeah, John, thanks for coming on the show. 76 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:34.680 And before we jump into the book, I mean, let's 77 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:37.079 hear a little bit about yourself, Like you have a 78 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:43.279 pretty extensive background, you know, working in journalism, and also 79 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:47.560 you speak like eight languages, which really explains why you 80 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:49.959 were able to write this book. But tell us a 81 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:52.240 little bit about like who you are and what led 82 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:54.199 you into the book project. 83 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:58.079 Yeah, for sure, I mean I think I was telling you. 84 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:04.120 I mean, I love for whatever reason, my primary interest 85 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:08.079 in life is languages, linguistics, and like learning new language. 86 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.800 I just love it. And I don't know why. It's 87 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:16.839 been since since I was a little kid. And according 88 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:21.480 to this handy little sheet that you're published by, yeah 89 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:29.800 you speak Russian, French, Sango, Turkish, Georgian, Bosnian, Croat, Serbo Croat, German, 90 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:34.720 and Chechen. Yeah yeah, and working on right now Arabic, 91 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:43.279 Ancient Greek, Portuguese, and I should be going in April 92 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:46.120 to the Amazon to hang out with an indigenous community 93 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.759 to try to learn their language. Is awesome, and I'm 94 00:05:48.759 --> 00:05:51.519 going to write a piece about it. So I just 95 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:53.240 like love I love this. So, yeah, you're like a 96 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:56.839 linguistic cartographer or something. Yeah, that's what that's what that's 97 00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:59.199 that's what I really enjoy. And I mean like like 98 00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:02.800 along with that, like if you're into that, you kind 99 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:07.519 of have a like a predisposition to being interested in 100 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:13.920 different cultures and history, and so I you know how 101 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:18.040 I came upon this. I had lived in Russia for 102 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.519 a little while. I spoke Russian and then went to 103 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:25.040 college and was a Russian studies guy. And then, like 104 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:27.639 a lot of people who have like super niche interests, 105 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.399 I went into investment banking and worked on Wall Street 106 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:34.839 for like seven years and slowly kind of allowed my 107 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.759 soul to be crushed. And then finally kind of I 108 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:40.920 made the decision I got to do something that is 109 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:44.199 like closer to what I'm passionate about. So I moved 110 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:47.839 down to DC, and I had been spending some more 111 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:55.920 time in Africa. And so when Wagner first touchdown in 112 00:06:55.959 --> 00:07:02.720 the Central African Republic in twenty eighteen, and I remember 113 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:04.879 reading about it, and I mean there were kind of 114 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:07.639 like two things, Like one was I thought it would 115 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:10.800 be fascinating to find out, you know, that this was 116 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:15.560 a confluence of my interests Russia and Africa. This I 117 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:20.199 wanted to know how these people were interacting and adapting 118 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:24.199 to each other or not adapting to each other. And 119 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.279 also I just like wanted to be the person who 120 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:29.839 writes about it. I didn't want other people to write 121 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:30.360 about it. 122 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:33.360 So I mean, did you have a job going over 123 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:35.240 there or did you really just hit the ground and 124 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:36.879 just start filwing like wire reports? 125 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:39.160 I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I don't, like, 126 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:42.199 I don't know exactly how like yeah, basically that like 127 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:44.959 there's a weird thing about like when you get in 128 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:48.560 I mean I got into journalism, and I still like 129 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:54.199 don't feel like super like I still feel a lot 130 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:59.800 of kind of imposter syndrome calling myself a journalist, because 131 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:04.240 there is this interesting thing about journalism that you can't 132 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:06.720 do an investment banking. You can't just show up and 133 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:09.199 New York can say you're an investment banker and like 134 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:12.800 manifest it that way, like you have to. But like 135 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.519 with journalism, you can kind of show up in a 136 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:21.319 place and say you kind of declare yourself a journalist 137 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:25.199 and try to figure things out and write articles and 138 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:29.199 pitch them and you know they you know, over time, 139 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:31.160 it takes a lot of effort to get those pitches 140 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:34.120 accepted and then it takes a lot of effort to 141 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:36.720 move up the but you can basically kind of manifest 142 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:37.559 it yourself. 143 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:41.039 As far as like the networking part on the ground 144 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.919 in some of these countries is very interesting, you know, 145 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:48.200 just to you got me thinking about it. Everything over 146 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:51.240 in a lot of these places is based on personal relationships. 147 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:53.279 So like if you know the right people, if you 148 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:56.759 have the right like interlocutors and they like you, you can 149 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:00.399 get wild interviews, Like you can get introduced to people 150 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:03.399 that like it just would not happen in the United States, 151 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:06.279 for instance, Like you can be a journalist and come 152 00:09:06.279 --> 00:09:08.600 fly to America and I want to interview the Delta 153 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:12.200 Force commander. That will never ever happen. But you can 154 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:16.080 fly into the Philippines or Kurdistan and if you know 155 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:19.120 the right people, you can interview their equivalent of that 156 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:22.960 of their intelligence service or their counter terrorism unit or whatever. Yeah, 157 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:24.600 it's interesting how that works. 158 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.879 And and I mean there's kind of a aside to 159 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:33.759 it that is both an advantage, you know, and also 160 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:37.720 a negative as well, which is, you know, specifically, when 161 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:40.879 it comes to conflict reporting, you see a lot of 162 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:47.639 freelance journalists because I mean basically the model that they're 163 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:52.679 doing is going to a place without you know, a 164 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:57.720 lot of insurance, insurance and and and operating there. And 165 00:09:57.799 --> 00:10:01.679 because it's so expensive for the big outlets and the 166 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:07.519 risk profiles and everything, you can kind of jump ahead 167 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:11.840 and get kind of those big pitches by basically putting 168 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:16.080 yourself in danger. And so there's always kind of a 169 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:19.679 big risk reward to it too. That also makes it 170 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:23.000 easier in a place like yeah, like you said, the 171 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:27.679 Central African Republic or you know, Mally or Libya, these 172 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:32.320 kind of places. So I first started showing up in 173 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:38.559 the Central African Republic in twenty nineteen, and so just 174 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:42.519 a little bit after Wagner had touched down. And I 175 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:44.840 think for me, it was very clear right away that 176 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:52.080 the kind of like overarching narratives about Wagner and Russians 177 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:53.679 in Africa as these kind. 178 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:55.720 Of omniscient. 179 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:02.039 Hyper ten feet hall was just like was not what 180 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:08.360 was matching what I was seeing. And so I first 181 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:13.320 realized that I had to understand the Central African Republic 182 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:17.480 first before I could understand how Wagner fit into it. 183 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:21.159 And then kind of the book started rolling from there. 184 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:24.039 We'll get deep into the into the book, but I mean, 185 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:26.960 since you kind of talked about it a little bit 186 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:30.519 right there, there's something interesting about this book that I 187 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:32.639 thought you teased out sort of like on a more 188 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:37.159 meadow level about warfare, which is you point out that, 189 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:42.519 especially in the chapters about Central Africa, that the way 190 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:45.639 these conflicts sort of like cole Less, is in a 191 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:48.240 manner that all of the players involved get the benefit 192 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.919 from some in some shape or form. And I saw that. 193 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:53.360 I mean, I think we saw it all over the 194 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:57.399 world with ISIS, So isis came in and these little 195 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:01.360 groups of bandits in Mozambique, Philippine wherever, got to raise 196 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:04.320 the black flag, try to attract international attention. It brings 197 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:08.240 in press attention, It gives them legitimacy, It gives the government, 198 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:11.879 you know, they get more American funding counter terrorism, they 199 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:13.840 can come in and fight them, and it gives us 200 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:17.399 military something to do, like we're sending our advisors. Everyone 201 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:18.720 kind of gets something out of it. 202 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:22.960 Yeah, you hit on the whole book, I mean like 203 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:26.720 but but I mean, I think it takes That's why 204 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:29.039 I think it's so interesting talking to you, because you 205 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.279 have a lot of experience kind of on the other 206 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:35.679 side of it. And so some of these like what 207 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:40.519 we think of like these overall structures of conflict kind 208 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:44.360 of become apparent over over time. And and the thing 209 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:49.320 that was fascinating to me throughout the book is and 210 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.879 we can get into you get any petegosion and these guys, 211 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:59.360 but you know, uh, Wagner was operating in sort of 212 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:04.559 an interesting kind of ambiguous area where it was both 213 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:11.120 a commercial prize exactly like commercial and uh and kind 214 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:16.480 of also part of the state and H and so 215 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:22.480 where they were especially effective was was where they could 216 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:27.919 sell a narrative back to the Kremlin about you know, 217 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:31.240 why they're these initiatives that so happened to also involve 218 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:34.879 gold mining and and what have you, are like within 219 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:40.600 Russia's national interests and and kind of the overarching narrative. Well, 220 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:45.279 the narratives that they used were both the War on 221 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:49.000 Terror Russia's version of it. You know, Russia has a 222 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:52.879 long history of issues of terrorism at home, and you know, 223 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:58.200 uh fought a campaign against ISIS as well in Syria, 224 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:02.080 and so Progosion, the founder of Wagner, he leveraged that 225 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.279 to make sure his guys were in but also kind 226 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:10.840 of this new great power competition narrative, the competition between 227 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:15.559 the US, China, and Russia. And you see how in 228 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:19.840 the book how everybody like you said, positions themselves vis 229 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:23.879 a the the narrative in a way that is politically 230 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:25.919 expedient or profitable to them. 231 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:32.080 You also get into a little bit about was I 232 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:35.919 going to say, jeez, I'm sorry, I totally lost my 233 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:40.159 train of thought already. Let's jump into the book. Yeah, 234 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:43.080 let's do it. Yeah, Hey, guys, I want to take 235 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.960 a moment to tell you about tonight's sponsor for the show, 236 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:49.279 which is Ridge Wallets. I've been using this for about 237 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:52.480 six months now, really enjoy it. 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Just head to Ridge 270 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:43.200 dot com slash house to see their biggest sale of 271 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:45.679 the year. After you purchase, they will ask you where 272 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.159 you heard about them. Please support our show and tell 273 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:50.519 them our show sent you. So guys, please go and 274 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.399 check out Ridge wallets. This also makes a great gift. 275 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:56.559 My girlfriend has one of these. My stepfather has one 276 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:00.519 of these, so I've given them away too. Our producer 277 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:04.759 Dmitri has one, So please go and check out Ridge wallas. 278 00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:09.440 So I think there's progosion is a great starting point. 279 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.759 It's kind of the main character of your book. Yeah, yeah, 280 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:16.480 tell us about who Progosion is and sort of who 281 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.200 he is in the context of like nineteen nineties, early 282 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:21.160 two thousands Russian politics. 283 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:29.079 Yeah, so, I mean, Progosion is an endlessly fascinating character, 284 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:31.519 and he was one who I hoped to I had 285 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:36.519 hoped to actually interview for the book before his sort 286 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:40.720 of epic demise. But you know, he grow he you know, 287 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.559 grows up on the wrong side of the tracks in 288 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:47.519 the Soviet Union and is sort of a you know, 289 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:51.720 a thief in a street thug. He goes away to 290 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:59.079 prison I think at eighteen for robbing and stranguling, strangulating 291 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:04.079 a woman she she nearly died, gets caught, goes away 292 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:08.039 to prison for eight years. He gets out, and in 293 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:12.400 the meantime, the Soviet Union is basically collapsing, and so 294 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:18.480 he returns to what became again Saint Petersburg from Leningrad 295 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:23.279 and it's, you know, right in the swing of the 296 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:29.839 wild chaotic nineteen nineties, and Pregosion joins in with a 297 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:36.000 couple of gangsters who set him up as the manager 298 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:40.240 of these grocery stores. At first and then he eventually 299 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:47.480 kind of leverages that to owning several restaurants that cater 300 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:51.319 to the nuvau rician in Russia and the Russian elite. 301 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.079 So you know, it's serving to find a champagne and 302 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:59.319 caviar like the more expensive the better. And this is 303 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:03.039 where he most likely comes in touch with with a 304 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:08.000 kind of a younger Vladimir Putin at the time. He 305 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:12.640 he strangely, it's only Progosion himself who has claimed that 306 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:16.960 he sold hot dogs, but his mom like you know, 307 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:22.519 like stirring the mustard apparently, and that the cash was 308 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:24.960 like it was too much. They couldn't even count all 309 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:27.799 the cash they were making from hot dogs, which I mean, 310 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:30.200 I could see hot dogs being a good in the 311 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:32.920 nineties in Russia. That I mean McDonald's was making money 312 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:33.880 handover fists. 313 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:36.240 And I mean maybe one of the great ironies of 314 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:38.519 your book, if I recall correctly, you point out that 315 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:41.759 Progosion probably made a lot more money from food catering 316 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:44.880 than he ever did from his private military Yeah. 317 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.039 No, and so, and this is what's interesting is that 318 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:52.000 like he so yeah, like you said, he he he 319 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.000 leverages these. He's a guy with endless ambition and networking. 320 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:58.279 He's always trying to meet the next most important guy, 321 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:05.160 and he leverages those connections to getting a job providing 322 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:09.000 meals or get the contract for providing meals to the 323 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:13.319 Russian military and the Russian schools. And that was in 324 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:16.359 the context of Russia, that's where you like managed to 325 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:19.119 skim a lot off the top, like that's where the 326 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:22.680 serious money is made. And so that's probably always where 327 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:30.279 most of his cash was coming from. And you know, 328 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:35.920 we can get into like his character later, but the 329 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:40.480 fact that he was kind of this thuggish, uncouth x 330 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:43.799 KHN with a chip on his shoulder goes into play, 331 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.039 you know, who's not accepted by kind of the buttoned 332 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:54.240 up Russian bureaucracy and some of the Putin's old friends 333 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:54.920 like really. 334 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.480 Goes like they seem as a gopnik. 335 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:02.480 Yeah yeah, yeah exactly, and so uh that will that 336 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:08.000 will become kind of like increasingly important over over time. 337 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:12.440 But he was always trying to overcome that stigma of 338 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.400 basically being like a street thug x con from the 339 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:17.559 Russian prison system. 340 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:20.880 And so how does he then make that jump from 341 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:26.799 being you know, known as Putin's caterer to mean how 342 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:29.039 does that how does he make that jump? So I 343 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:29.799 mean we have to. 344 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:35.920 Go to and I mean, I guess it's particularly timely. 345 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:40.880 Now we have to understand the context of what is 346 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:49.079 now kind of the first phase of the war in Ukraine, and. 347 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:53.400 And and and also kind of how how Putin's regime works. 348 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.359 And so a guy like Pregosion, he rises up, he 349 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:01.839 gets these contracts. The Russi state is one, I mean, 350 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:04.640 like any state, but more so than the US, is 351 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:10.039 one with a high amount of ambition on what it 352 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:15.000 wants to achieve, and a lot less capacity and resources 353 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.400 to do it. And one of the ways that they 354 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:21.279 filled these gaps within the system is that oligarchs will 355 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.759 kind of go out and fund, you know, these patriotic 356 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.480 initiatives for the oligarch. They might not always be making 357 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:31.640 money on it, but it is sort of a form 358 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:35.599 of like virtue signaling, like donating to a political party 359 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.000 in a way right in the hopes that it's. 360 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:45.240 Going to rewards later on. And so if we look. 361 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:50.960 At what was happening in Russia at the time, it's 362 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:52.480 going to stu like there, you're good. 363 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.160 Cool. If we look at what was happening at Russia, 364 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:58.440 at the time. Here here you go. 365 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:10.119 Perfect In twenty twelve, there are massive protests against Putin's 366 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:18.640 proposed return to the presidency. And and this is coming 367 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:21.599 on the back of Libya. Yeah, this is coming on 368 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.039 the back of Libya, the Arab Spring, the Color revolutions. 369 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:31.599 And Putin eventually returns to the presidency, but he's he's 370 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:37.759 shaken by it. And there are people from all sorts 371 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:42.920 of ideology, Russian ideologies are marching against Putin, from liberals 372 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:46.799 like Navalni you know who you know was killed much 373 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:51.240 later on, but also a particularly worrisome group which are 374 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:56.759 like the Russian nationalists. And these are I mean, it's 375 00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:00.640 pretty nic wolves. I mean, one of them, the night Wolves, 376 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:03.039 were kind of always like pro Putin. There were a 377 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:05.200 lot of guys. I talked to a guy a lot 378 00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.599 who's in the Russian Imperial movement. 379 00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:09.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 380 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:15.480 And these guys are Orthodox and want the return of 381 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.559 the Russian Empire, and they want to restore the Tzar 382 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:24.960 a third Rome, and to them, the Russian Federation, Ukraine 383 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:28.519 and and Belarus are the artificial product of the Soviet 384 00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:32.599 Union and the Bolsheviks. And so not only is Ukraine illegitimate, 385 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:35.559 but so is the Russian Federation, and therefore so is 386 00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:39.960 Putin because he's he's the head of an entity that 387 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:43.119 is illegitimate to begin with, and the tsar is really 388 00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:47.000 what we want to go back to. And so these 389 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:51.160 guys are marching against Putin and and you know, Putin 390 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:55.519 navigates his way through it, but he's shaken progosion, you know, 391 00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.599 kind of Ever, the astute observer puts out like a 392 00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:04.200 big do documentary that called it an Anatomy of a protest, 393 00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:08.680 which you know, paints the protesters as you know, like 394 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:13.720 a conspiratorial Western you know, Western students. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 395 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.400 And you know, right as kind of Putin is sort 396 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:25.079 of consolidating again his position. The revolution in Ukraine breaks 397 00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:28.720 out that what became known as the mind On Revolution, 398 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:38.319 and as Ukrainians are overthrowing the current government wanting to 399 00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:42.880 go on a pathway to the EU and towards the West, 400 00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:47.079 the Kremlin makes the decision that they're going to seize 401 00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:51.160