WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:02.359 Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. 2 00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:03.759 I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo. 3 00:00:03.799 --> 00:00:05.919 And Lorenzo in this episode, I want to talk about 4 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:09.720 an article I saw that that was titled, uh, you know, 5 00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:12.560 Axioms of Zombie Leadership, and it was kind of a 6 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:14.960 weird title to me. Zombie leadership isn't something I'd ever 7 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:18.719 heard used before. And what the author says basically is 8 00:00:18.760 --> 00:00:22.839 that there are things that we have thought are true 9 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:27.120 about leadership that have that have happened over years where 10 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:29.640 we just start thinking these things about leadership and the 11 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:33.079 practice of leadership and the qualities that leaders have, these 12 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:35.200 kind of things that we just assume are true, and 13 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:37.479 we've thought they were true for a long time. But 14 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:42.079 yet there has been significant evidence over the recent years 15 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:45.640 to debunk those things and and say no, this is 16 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:47.439 not right. There's a lot more to it than this, 17 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:49.840 this is not accurate. But yet for some reason, we 18 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:53.039 still hear them today. We still hear people talk about 19 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:56.359 these things today as if they are gospel, when in fact, 20 00:00:56.479 --> 00:00:58.880 not only are they're not gospel, they've been debunked. There's 21 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:02.159 there's they've been we can throw them out now because 22 00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:04.719 we know they're not true and yet people still quote 23 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:07.560 them and bring them up and believe they're true. So 24 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:09.400 you know, first thing I want to talk about really 25 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:10.879 is why do you think we do this? Why do 26 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:13.319 you think we hang on to these things? Even you 27 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:15.760 know we're smart people, we have this new evidence, and 28 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:17.840 yet we for some reason it's just so much easier 29 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:20.120 to hang onto these old ways of thinking. 30 00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:21.560 Well, first of all, I would say when you say 31 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:24.319 like zombie leadership, I immediately thought, like my early days 32 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:28.000 of watching some leaders walk around a retail store looking 33 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:28.640 like zombies. 34 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:33.359 Yes, I can pick walking dead. Yeah, I been one 35 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:37.120 of those zombies. 36 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:38.200 In Yeah, but no, I think it's the same thing 37 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:41.640 that it's very similar to what I see sometimes in 38 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:46.840 the fact that as you know, as as leaders, as 39 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:49.879 a young leader, as somebody who's new enroll, like, you 40 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:52.239 really do a lot of emulating of the leaders that 41 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:56.680 you have. You hear styles of leadership, You hear approaches 42 00:01:56.680 --> 00:02:00.640 to leadership. You hear things that are stated as fact 43 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:02.680 or that have always been there, and so you start 44 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:05.280 to like, you subscribe to those things, You believe those things, 45 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:09.400 you repeat those things, and then you assign those things 46 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:11.919 to leaders that were successful. And then as you find 47 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:14.759 success in leadership. You then to believe, you believe that 48 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:17.360 those things are what got you there and therefore those 49 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:19.400 are the things that must continue. So like, I see 50 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:23.879 that because a lot of times leaders don't take into 51 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:29.319 account the fact that their style of leadership, the frameworks 52 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:31.719 they build within their teams, their approaches to how they 53 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:34.919 get work done, that not only are these things like 54 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:37.719 the things that get the business going, but these actually 55 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:41.639 become the pillars of the leaders that you're developing into 56 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:43.639 the future. So you have to be really conscious of that, 57 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.159 and you also have to be willing to challenge some 58 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:49.360 of these things sometimes or you know, talk about these 59 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:52.280 things if they are adjusting, if they're no longer relevant 60 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.360 and stuff. So, but I think that to answer your question, like, 61 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:58.759 over time, many of these leadership theories, many of these 62 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:02.879 thoughts and approaches that were kind of assigned over a 63 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.840 couple of decades or have been taught over the years, 64 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:09.039 they just feel like, well, yeah, that's how it has 65 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:12.520 to be, because that's how it's always been, versus kind 66 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:16.120 of going deeper to understand, like no, actually, even if 67 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:18.280 we say it worked for a time, maybe it didn't 68 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:20.319 even work in that time, But we have to get 69 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:22.800 away from these as we learn more and more about 70 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:26.560 each other, about leadership, about how people like to be led, 71 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:29.280 but also like there are things that we have to 72 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:32.439 hold on to that are real pillars of leadership that 73 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:37.000 have you know, kind of sustained over you know, you know, 74 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:39.800 hundreds of years of not thousands of years, and I 75 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:41.919 think a lot of times we want to smash some 76 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:44.560 things next to those that probably shouldn't be there. 77 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:46.840 Yeah, I like that. I like the idea of that 78 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.400 when you said, even if these things worked for a time, 79 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:53.280 maybe they didn't even work in that time. And I 80 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:55.080 think I think it's both, right. I think there are 81 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:56.680 some of these things that we're going to talk about 82 00:03:56.919 --> 00:04:00.240 that actually did work for a time and now they don't, 83 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:02.599 and there are some things that we just assumed worked 84 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:05.080 and they never did. I think I think it's both. 85 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:08.479 But yeah, it just it didn't feel right to think 86 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.520 that we did something that just never worked, but for 87 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:14.159 some reason we gravitated towards it in order for this 88 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:18.000 to happen. At some point, someone saw some results, right, 89 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:22.920 Someone saw some positive, some positivity outcomes results from doing 90 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:26.040 things a specific way, or by by lending credence to 91 00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:29.560 a certain leadership style, a way of thinking, and that 92 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:32.360 had to be widespread enough to lead people to believe 93 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:35.120 that this was the this was the case. I think 94 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:36.959 a lot of it is, you know, kind of chalking 95 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:39.800 it up to you know what, uh, you know, all 96 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:41.439 the things that we're gonna we're gonna talk about on 97 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:46.240 this episode are related to focusing on the people being 98 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:48.879 led as opposed to the leaders themselves. And and I 99 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.079 like that, And I think that's because the the the 100 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:59.160 differences between what's important to the people being led are 101 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.360 more prone bounced now than they might have been thirty, 102 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:06.480 forty or fifty years ago. The differences in the tea 103 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:10.560 like just from a just from a diversity and inclusion standpoint, 104 00:05:10.759 --> 00:05:14.439 you know, if you fifty years ago, the you know, 105 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:18.680 teams probably looked more like each other than they did 106 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:22.040 wherever that team happened to be. And there's so much 107 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:27.879 differentiation between people now, and that includes a differentiation of age, 108 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:30.600 which means, you know, different stages of life and what's 109 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.959 important to them. And so you can't just focus on 110 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:38.560 the leader because the leader that assumes that all of 111 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:41.680 those people want the same leader, when in actuality they 112 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:43.959 may want different things from their leader. So I do 113 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:48.000 like that kind of subtle but slow and deliberate movement 114 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:52.199 towards you know, what is important is really defined by 115 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:55.560 the people being led as opposed leaders themselves. So you know, 116 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:57.279 the first one that I want to go over here 117 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:00.759 is you know where it talks it talks about this 118 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:03.720 axiom of zombie leadership is that leadership is about all 119 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:07.319 leaders and it's the preserve of those who occupy the 120 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:11.160 former leader formal leadership roles, and it can and and 121 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:14.759 that leadership can be understood by focusing on leaders alone. 122 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:17.839 And the problem with that, as stated by the article, 123 00:06:18.279 --> 00:06:21.600 is that leadership is proved by followership and it requires 124 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:25.480 us to study and understand followers. And yeah, I again 125 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:30.399 just what I said. I believe that wholeheartedly, and I 126 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:32.120 think it's getting more and more so like that as 127 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:32.639 time goes on. 128 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:35.680 Yeah, I agree with you. I think that, you know, 129 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:42.519 just the the the belief that a leader by themselves 130 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:50.079 can really create and inspire and motivate teams. I think 131 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:53.800 we have examples of that. Do we have examples of 132 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:56.079 that in the world? Most of the time those examples, though, 133 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:59.240 are like looking backwards, and we tend to paint the 134 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:03.759 picture of see so a leader themselves as like, Wow, 135 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:06.800 here's all of the impact, here's what they stood for, 136 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:10.360 here's the things that we remember, or here's the examples 137 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:12.480 of amazing and great leadership. And you can google and 138 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:14.959 there's articles about all types of leaders in all types 139 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:18.439 of ways. But the reality is is it wasn't just 140 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:21.920 that one person, like, there was teams of people people 141 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:25.279 surrounded that person, people that also influence people that influence 142 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.480 that person to be that way. Like there's so it's 143 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.879 so much deeper than that. And I think when we 144 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:34.680 get into those spaces where we think that it's like, wow, 145 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.399 what an amazing leader and they really are doing this work, 146 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:42.000 then what we also will realize over time is like 147 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.959 with everyone in anybody, you're going to have strengths, and 148 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:46.639 you're going to have opportunities, you're going to have things 149 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:48.639 that you over use, You're going to have things that 150 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:52.399 you have yet to learn yet in life, and and 151 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:54.480 and what happens is when you put all of that 152 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:59.199 time and attention into a singular leader, when they make 153 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:04.439 a mistake, that mistake echoes through everything and it becomes 154 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:09.920 much harder to recover and repair because everybody was kind 155 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:12.480 of assigning to this kind of one idea that it's 156 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:14.920 just this one leader. So I think that, yeah, it 157 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:18.639 absolutely there are amazing leaders. There are amazing individuals that 158 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:21.240 did amazing things. But I have yet to find any 159 00:08:21.319 --> 00:08:24.480 one single who, a single individual who did it all 160 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:29.319 themselves and there were no examples of others around them 161 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:31.519 that have helped to shape the work that they did 162 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:33.399 and the results they get that they gathered. 163 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:36.120 I think about this in the context of I had 164 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:38.399 a leader once. I was an assistant manager at a store, 165 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:42.559 and I had a leader who I thought was an 166 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:46.399 amazing leader. I really enjoyed working for this person, and 167 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:53.840 this person didn't know much about the specific jobs being 168 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:57.159 done by the people reporting to him because he was 169 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:00.399 hired in from the outside into this role and had 170 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:04.159 not been with the with the organization before. And because 171 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:09.159 myself and my peers knew our jobs really well and 172 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:13.200 we were committed to doing quality work, it allowed this 173 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:17.279 leader to not have to focus on the minutia of 174 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:19.840 what each of our roles were and just focus on 175 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:22.960 leading at a macro level. So none of us feel 176 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:25.559 felt micromanaged. We all felt like we were allowed to, 177 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:27.600 you know, do our jobs the way we wanted to 178 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:30.399 do them and and kind of be left alone but 179 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:34.679 still supported, and that the performance that we accomplished as 180 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:37.960 a team got this leader kind of I don't say promoted, 181 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:40.440 but they were asked to kind of go to a 182 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:43.399 different location to fix things that were that were that 183 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:46.519 were wrong. And I felt really bad when this happened, 184 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:50.240 because this this person failed miserably at that at that 185 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:54.440 other place. And it was because they they did They 186 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:56.399 did it the same way they did it for us, 187 00:09:56.840 --> 00:09:59.759 which was to not micromanage and allow people to just 188 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:02.200 show and do their jobs and try to just lead them. 189 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:05.399 But because they didn't have a team of people reporting 190 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:08.559 to them that were as committed to doing great work 191 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:11.480 and knew the job as well, it required a lot 192 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:14.360 more of them in terms of what their role became 193 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:15.960 as a leader, and it was a skill that they 194 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:19.279 didn't necessarily over index on on very much. And and again, 195 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:25.200 same person, same leader, different set of followers. Obviously, you 196 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:27.519 could if you just looked at them as in silos 197 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:29.679 by themselves, you would think, oh, this was a great 198 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:31.720 leader over here, and this was a terrible leader over here. 199 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:34.519 But it's the same person, and so if the difference 200 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:37.639 is the the outcomes can be can be you know, 201 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.720 determined by who the followers are and what they need. Yeah, 202 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:44.600 of course you can't just learn about leadership and about 203 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:47.080 what good leadership looks like by studying the leaders. You 204 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:48.960 have to study the followers. I think it's it is 205 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:52.039 a it's an almost it's almost a duh kind of thing, 206 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.639 but it but it it emphasizes the importance of making 207 00:10:56.679 --> 00:10:59.480 sure that that when you when you promote a leader 208 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:02.519 or hire person in that you can't just look at 209 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:05.320 the qualities of of the of leadership that you're looking 210 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:09.360 for in the context of who this leader is. You 211 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:12.039 have to look at the team that this leader is 212 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:15.080 being hired to lead and think about, Okay, what does 213 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:18.279 this team need right now? And and and that can 214 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:22.120 that should impact your hiring or promotion decision. It might 215 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:25.159 even it might even come out looking like of the 216 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.200 person who was more qualified for the job didn't get 217 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.080 it and the person who was less qualified for the 218 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:33.200 job did get it. But in actuality, the person who 219 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:35.360 got it is the one who that team needed in 220 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:38.679 that moment, and and that that should be that should 221 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:43.440 impact those decisions, which means they were the most qualified, right, 222 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:46.320 I mean on paper versus like looking at the nuance. No, 223 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:48.240 you're right, yeah, most qualified. 224 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:50.279 Right, Like correct, We we tend we tend to want 225 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:54.200 to believe that qualifications are simply words on a resume, 226 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:57.799 total experiences, right, But to your point, you're exactly correct. Like, 227 00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:02.600 a big part of thinking about leaders and selecting leaders 228 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:06.720 and a team is what does the team need and 229 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:09.559 then what does this leader bring? And to be quite 230 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:11.559 honest with you as well, like when you're talking about 231 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:14.639 selecting leaders of leaders, selecting people that are going to, 232 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:18.519 you know, like look to influence through a team or 233 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:21.879 create positive work dynamics, things like that, I'm gonna be 234 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:25.960 honest with you. Sometimes sometimes there's things that are like 235 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.159 like less things on a resume are actually what you need, 236 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:34.320 like you need less like less maybe like structured experience 237 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:37.240 where somebody may feel like this is the only way 238 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:40.600 to do something, versus someone walking in being wide eyed 239 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:43.279 and open to be like, oh, I have confidence of 240 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.440 what I can do, but also like I'm wanting to 241 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.200 learn every day, right, Like I and I have an 242 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:51.679 element about my personality where I'm very you know, I 243 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:54.039 have a lot of transparency with the team and can say, hey, 244 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.120 I know a lot of things, but I don't know that, 245 00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:57.759 so would you mind teaching me so that I can 246 00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:01.039 better serve you as a leader, versus the person who says, oh, 247 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:02.799 I've done that, I know how to do that. I'm 248 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:05.679 very confident there's a way to do that. Like, sometimes 249 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.080 your team needs that. So when you're when you're building 250 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:12.679 leadership teams, you have to find ways to select talent 251 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:16.559 that gives you those things that your team needs over time. 252 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:19.759 So I want to underline your point there, because it's 253 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:22.960 more than just experience in a resume. It's more than 254 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:27.000 just the job. If you're looking at qualified candidates, that 255 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:29.919 means somebody can do the work that you're looking for. 256 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:33.639 You know, as as as the job is described, it 257 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.879 doesn't necessarily mean who's had the most experience doing it, 258 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:42.879 who's had you know, the most differences in their careers. 259 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.840 It doesn't know who's done these jobs longer than this. Like, 260 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:50.600 those things are important as you're assessing the leader's capabilities, 261 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.480 but when it comes to selection, you take all of 262 00:13:53.480 --> 00:13:57.399 that into account along with what does this team need, 263 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:00.759 what's going to help them to move forward faster? And 264 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:02.600 not only the team that they lead, but the team 265 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:05.840 that they're on, what about their peers, what's a piece 266 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:08.960 of this that their peer group may be missing or 267 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:12.159 can utilize or may need in the room when they're 268 00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:15.200 building strategies and whatnot. So there's a lot a lot 269 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:16.919 to it when making those types of decisions. 270 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:19.080 Yeah, I agree with that. The next one I want 271 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:21.840 to go over in terms of these axioms of zombie 272 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:26.320 leadership is this idea that people can't cope without leaders 273 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:31.159 So there's been an opinion that everyone needs leadership and 274 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:35.799 that leadership is always required for group success, and over 275 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.679 time it has been proven that that's not the case. 276 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:43.919 In fact, if the leadership is poor, then that will 277 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:49.159 cause disengagement, and almost no leadership is better than poor leadership. 278 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:51.919 And you can see this in organizations. There are some 279 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:56.279 organizations out there that will hire somebody and they won't 280 00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:58.039 work out, and they'll hire somebody else and they won't 281 00:14:58.039 --> 00:14:59.639 work out, and they'll hire somebody else and they won't 282 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:02.200 work out, and there's this massive turnover over a very 283 00:15:02.200 --> 00:15:06.000 short period of time. And there are other organizations where 284 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:08.879 where you notice, like a role stays empty for a 285 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:11.360 while and you wonder why, why is the role empty. 286 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:14.519 And it's it's not a lack of a of a 287 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.480 talent bench. It's it's a we we know that this 288 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:21.559 team where they are, they're a high performing team, and 289 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:24.840 we know that just having a person there because we 290 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:27.399 want to say this role is filled, will cause more 291 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:30.000 damage than not having a person there to begin with. 292 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:32.639 So we're gonna let the team go and do their thing, 293 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:34.360 and we'll check in on them and we'll make sure 294 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:36.840 that that they're supported, but we're not going to put 295 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:39.159 a person in this role until we know they are 296 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.919 the right person for this And and the fact that 297 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:45.679 that has been successful that way for for organizations really 298 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:50.519 underlies that fact that leadership is not always necessary if 299 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:53.200 you have teams that know how to do their jobs. Well, 300 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:56.279 I'm not saying that they will never need a leader again. 301 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:59.080 They may not be able to go forever without leadership, 302 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.440 but for a short period of time, not having a 303 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:04.840 leader in place is better than having the wrong leader 304 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:05.240 in place. 305 00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:07.960 Absolutely, And with that it brings us to this episode's 306 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:10.600 one minute hack. But first, a few words from our sponsors. 307 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:13.000 All Right, for this episode one minute hackre is I 308 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:14.279 want you to do I want you to get out 309 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:15.960 a pen and paper, and I want you to write 310 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.200 down the things that you believe about leaders, like about 311 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.080 what good leadership looks like, write down the traits of 312 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:24.639 good leaders. Write down you know, the names of people 313 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:26.840 who you believe are good leaders, and why you think 314 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:30.000 they're good leaders, all the things that you believe in 315 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.360 your heart that you would need in order to define 316 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:36.519 what good leadership looks like for for other people. And 317 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:38.240 then I want you to look at that list that 318 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.440 you wrote down and think, why do I think that, 319 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:44.960 Like what has led me to believe that this was good? 320 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:46.879 What has led me to believe that this is part 321 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:49.080 of what good leadership looks like? Or why why do 322 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:52.159 I believe these specific things? And really pick those things 323 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:54.759 apart to figure out if, if why you think that, 324 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:58.360 if it's evidence based over like a broader context, or 325 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:03.279 if it's just your own individual opinion about what happened 326 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:05.559 to you and your experience, and whether or not it 327 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:07.960 could be applied elsewhere. Ask other people to look at 328 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:09.599 your list if you want to, to see if they 329 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:12.240 would agree with that situation, to agree that this is 330 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:13.799 what makes a good leader, or not, see if they 331 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:16.839 want to contribute something differently, If whenever you find a 332 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:20.079 lack of consensus between you and somebody else about what 333 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:22.400 makes a good leader. I don't mean they can't fill 334 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:24.880 in more of the list. I mean where they say 335 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:27.440 something and you think, no, that's not important at all, 336 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:29.880 or you say something and they think that's not important 337 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.279 at all. Figure out why that is. Because if you 338 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:36.799 disagree on something and you both genuinely believe that you're right, 339 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:40.400 it means that your own lived perspective has influenced that 340 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:43.920 and not influence to the other person the exact same way. 341 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:46.359 The more you can dig into this and figure out 342 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:49.240 what things are are real when it comes to what 343 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:51.640 good leadership looks like, and what things are just made 344 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:53.319 up or that you heard and that felt right to 345 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:55.519 you in the moment, the better equipped you're going to 346 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:57.640 be to be a good leader as you move up 347 00:17:57.640 --> 00:17:59.599 through your roles, because you're not going to bring with 348 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.519 you things that you just think are correct, but because 349 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:04.960 they just happen to work correctly this one time, but 350 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:06.799 they're not correct and they will derail you later on. 351 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:08.799 Yeah, it's a great woman to hack. And I think 352 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:11.240 the big part of this is just the dialogue. 353 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:11.839 I think that. 354 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:19.240 Understanding how you perceive leadership understanding the things that you 355 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:24.160 feel are those elements and those pillars of how you 356 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.599 are have become a leader or are becoming a leader, 357 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:30.519 and then having an open space to debate some of 358 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:32.880 those types of things and think through some of those things. Again, 359 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:38.440 like this is an ever evolving you know situation, as 360 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:41.519 you know workforces and people are expecting different things from leaders. 361 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:43.640 There are again I said this earlier, there are some 362 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:47.279 really clear pillars, and I would tell you things like honesty, integrity. 363 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.079 You know, these are things that once you lose them, 364 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.039 or when people don't have that, they don't have trust, 365 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:54.440 and then you're not leading anybody with anything. So like that, 366 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:57.640 there are things that really will always be a major 367 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:01.599 component of leadership. But there's a lot of approaches and 368 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:06.640 theories and ideas that over time we've learned more about, 369 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:10.200 we've adjusted, we've built on top of, or we've eliminated completely. 370 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:14.000 So I think it's good to constantly think about how 371 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:16.720 your leadership has been shaped, how you want to shape 372 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.640 leaders but also hearing from other people and how they 373 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:22.839 perceive some of these thoughts and approaches, because that's only 374 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:25.680 going to help to sharpen your perspective on how you 375 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:28.519 want to impact people as you continue your role in 376 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:29.480 leadership capacity. 377 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:32.079 I agree with that completely. I also think this kind 378 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:37.359 of this underscores the importance of mentorship in the context 379 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.599 of are there people out there that you can talk 380 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:46.000 to who can articulate why they believe their way worked? So? 381 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:48.240 Are there are there leaders who you think are good 382 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.720 leaders who you can actually ask and ask this person, Hey, 383 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:54.839 you were successful this and this and this, why do 384 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:57.920 you think that is? Why were you successful? And see 385 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.799 if they talk about qualities that they bring. See if 386 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:02.759 they talk about this is what the team needed at 387 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:04.799 the time. See if they can talk about how the 388 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:06.799 learnings they had over time about how they had to 389 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.000 change your leadership style for certain people or certain teams 390 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:14.119 versus others, Do they have the staying power? Because if 391 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:17.359 your person has moved up in different leadership roles throughout 392 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:20.599 their career and taken on more and more responsibility leading 393 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:22.720 people who are higher and higher up in their careers, 394 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:26.000 there's no way to do that without being able to 395 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.319 change your leadership style. You can't carry one style with 396 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:31.839 you for thirty years of a leadership career. You have 397 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:34.559 to be able to alter those things because of the 398 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:37.160 changing needs of your team. So talk to people who've 399 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:39.599 been able to do that and find out why they 400 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.160 did that or what led them to believe that it 401 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:45.000