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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime.

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Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder.

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Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Jill Thomas.

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Speaker 3: How's it going, mister Thomas.

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Speaker 2: It's going great. It broke into the forties up here

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in the icebox of Connecticut for the first time in weeks.

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I think January just feels is going to be a

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long log after a very cold, snowy, icy December.

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Speaker 3: It seems like it will probably be that way. We're

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only nine days into January and it already feels like

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it's January seventy first.

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling the same way.

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Speaker 3: January is always the longest, hardest month. It feels like

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everything else will fly, but this one it drags.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And without getting into a political discussion, the national

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news is very challenging in down Toyeat. Yeah, everybody I know,

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regardless of their political persuasion, is unhappy in a tough

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place right now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it can be hard to find things to look

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forward to and find joy in. But one of the

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things that I'm trying to make an effort to do

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every day is find a little joy somewhere. And so

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today my joy was getting to see my parents pittmull Electra,

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who is the sweetest, luckiest darling, and she was my

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joy for today.

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Speaker 2: Ah. Now she's transitioned over from one family member to another. Correct.

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Speaker 3: Yes, she was my stepsister's dog and she's come to

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live with my parents, and she is the most wonderful

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love bug of all time. She's so sweet. None of

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us ever thought we could love a pit bull. And

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I'm not just saying that because it's a breed specific thing.

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I have known two people who are attacked by pitbulls.

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My life partner Mark's dog Piglet was mauled by an

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off leash pet ball.

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Speaker 2: I remember that, yes.

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Speaker 3: So yeah. I never thought that pit bulls were anything

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other than dangerous. But then I met Electra and she

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is just the sweetest and goofiest, funniest girl, and I

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just love her to pieces. She's so darling.

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Speaker 2: She sounds like a real sweetheart, and the pictures are great,

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and she does look like just like a complete love sponge,

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like I want to be with my people and I

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want to get lots of pets in the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, she'll pile on top of you as soon

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as she sees you. And because she's a lap full,

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she's the big old girls. And when she puts her

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ears up, she looks exactly like Scooby Doo, so I

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don't think she's full pitbull. She may have some boxer

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in her, but she's got Scooby Doo ears. When she

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perks her ears up, we always go work fragging. Do

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we know how old she is? Like two or three?

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Speaker 2: Maybe hopefully she'll be around for a number of years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's a great girl. We love her so she

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is our joy and I assume your Oliver is your joy.

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Speaker 2: He is. We're having lots of fun, and we do

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try to look for fun things to balance out all

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the heaviness. I was reading an article early yesterday morning.

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Get up and the first thing I do is start

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dooms growing. I was reading this article about the feeling

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of dread. That was the word the author used in

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the community across the country these days, and I winced.

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But I think it's pretty accurate. On the other hand,

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I try to look for positive things. All the animal

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stuff on social media were complete suckers for anything with

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docs and dogs. Donkeys, Yep, we've had goats. We've had

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serious discussions about whether or not we could get a donkey,

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which we live in town. I don't think our neighbors

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would be thrilled with us getting a donkey, probably not.

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But a fun idea, though, isn't it. Could you get

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away with a goat to mow your backyard? Well, I

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don't think so, and we're right in town. This is

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probably not a good idea. Olivre's probably the largest animal

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we should have in our yard. We're in the village

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and the houses are fairly close together. I just don't

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think large farm animals are in our future, but we

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like checking them out. I do look for good movies

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and entertaining things to watch to just try to bounce

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out all of this stuff. We've stepped away from the

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news for a while, Yeah, but it's hard not to

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follow what's going on.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, it's because you want to stay informed. Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Today we wanted to talk about an article that was

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in the New York Times. So once you set that.

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Speaker 3: Up for us, I was very interested the other day

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when I was scanning the New York Times and I

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saw not even a headline, just a smaller piece buried

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underneath the in other news, and the headline was her

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brother pleaded guilty to the Idaho murders. Now She's ready

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to talk. It is a piece by investigative reporter Mike Baker,

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who was based in Seattle. He is reporting for the

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New York Times, and he scored an interview with Melanie Coberger,

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who goes by mel about how her family is coping

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in the wake of her brother Brian's plea deal and

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guilty plea for the Idaho murders. Was very interesting to me.

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One that she was willing to talk and to what

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she had to say. So I put forth the idea

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to Bill that we should talk about this. And what

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we're going to do is proceed through hitting the highlights

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of the story, and we're going to stop and discuss

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some of the points that we found most interesting, because

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there are quite a few things in here that speak

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to true crime culture at the moment, ethics and true crime,

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which of course we all are big proponents of here

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in the true crime space, and it's things that I

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think we can all have a good discussion about. So

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we'll go ahead and start the story begins. The harrowing

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news had spread across the country. In the fall of

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twenty twenty two, four college students were found stabbed to

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death at a house near the University of Idaho campus. Melkoburger,

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who was preparing to start a new job as a

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mental health therapist in New Jersey, could not help feeling

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a sense of alarm. Her brother, Brian, was living just

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fifteen minutes from the scene of the mysterious killings. Investigators

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had no suspects, and Brian was just the type of

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person who would leave his door unlocked and go out

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on late night jogs. Brian, you're running outside and the

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psycho killer is on the loose, She remembers telling him

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be careful. He thanked her for checking on him and

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assured her that he would stay safe. In early December

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that year, her brother returned to their parents' home in

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Pennsylvania for the holidays, and later that month, Miss Coburger

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got a call from her sister, Amanda. Law enforcement officers

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had burst into the house in the middle of the

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night and placed Coburger in handcuffs. She was like, I'm

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with the FBI. Brian's been arrested. Miss Coburger said, I

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was like, for what the response the Idaho murders. For

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a brief moment, she wondered if it was a prank.

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Then a sense of nausea overtook her.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one of those moments that I'm sure no

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one expects to get. You don't expect the phone call

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that says your brother's been arrested for serial murder.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as murder. Yeah, this isn't even killing one person.

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This is killing four people, and as far as we know,

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he didn't even know them in any serious way. You

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remember that Coburger and his father had driven across the

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country together and so Coberger had gone back during the

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semester break. He's working on as doctorate at that point,

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and he's spending time with his family over the Christmas break,

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and that's when the FBI and other law enforcement agencies

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broke their door down, went into the house in the

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early morning hours. It has to be a complete shock.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that I was thinking of is

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I sat here reading this and thinking about what we

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would like to discuss is the fact that you have

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the families of the victims and you have the families

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of the effender. Their reactions to that type of news

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are likely very similar. They are literally on different sides

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of the same coin. Both of us have been in

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the position where we remember getting phone calls I am about

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loved ones of ours who were murdered. We've never been

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on the opposite end of someone that we know has

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murdered someone else. I would imagine, like I said, that,

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getting that phone call and hearing this terrible news that

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you think would never happen to you, now, that's got

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to be a world shaker. Bill. Do you remember where

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you were when you got the phone call about Kathy?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, yeah, it was I was living in Philadelphia,

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I was working for RCA Video. I remember my parents

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called me. It was a Sunday in October. Both my

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parents who were on the phone. We used to talk frequently.

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This is in fall nineteen eighty six, So just as

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a reminder, this is before the Internet, before email, before

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cell phones. If you wanted to get a hold of somebody,

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you called them on their landline, which was either at

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home or at work. Typically I had an answering machine.

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I remember that, anasonic answering machine with two cassettes, one

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with an outgoing message and one with incoming messages. In

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this case, it was my parents calling me together. I

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remember my dad saying very seriously, are you sitting down?

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And I remember thinking this is ridiculous. What do I

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need to sit down for. I thought this was just

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going to be that sort of weekly phone call you

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had with your parents. My dad then proceeded to tell

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me that Kathy's body had been found in her Honda Civic,

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together with her relatively new girlfriend, Rebecca Dowski. And it's

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like a bolt out of the blue. And then I

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found later that becomes like a line of demarcation. I've

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used this expression before on Mind over Murder. It's like

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your own private nine to eleven or other significant date

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where you're never going to forget where you were the

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day you were hit with this news. Now, it's not

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a shared event when I was a kid, or President

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Kennedy or the Challenger disaster or nine to eleven, But

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it's just like that, but on a more personal level.

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So there's the before and then you get this news,

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and then everything after that becomes the after. Yeah, And

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I remember thinking about it much later. I came to

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realize that friends of Kathy's that was a club that

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was no longer accepting members. It's like a steel sheet

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came down. And then there's the before that's when Kathy

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Thomas was alive, and then there's the after. And it's

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such a profound impact on your life, especially now in

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the two years since we got the first solve in

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the Colonial Parkway murders, and that was right about two

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years ago at the time we're recording this January twenty

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twenty four. That announcement, I think especially for Robin Edwards

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and David Knobling's families and then Teresa Howell's family as well,

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that we were not familiar with at that time. For

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I think all of these families. This is another one

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of those very sharp lines between the before and the after.

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Here it is it's more than thirty years later, and

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now those families who've suffered a similar loss to ours

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are also then going through the shocking news that there's

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some sort of resolution in their case. Now, I suppose,

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had Alan Wade Wilmer Senior or identified suspect not been deceased,

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we'd then be heading into another pivotal stage for this

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whole thing, which is going into a trial. And then

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I suppose the day they announce a verdict would probably

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be again one of those very right lines between the

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before and minster.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. It's a watershed moment. One of the

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things I want to talk about before we move on

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is something that I've only alluded to on the podcast

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because I've never really felt that it was my story

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to tell, and I still feel largely that is true.

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If I want to tell this story in any depth,

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I will ask the family members to come on. But

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probably the closest that I had come up until working

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with Bill in relation to knowing someone who had been

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murdered was the murder of my best friend's mother, Lynn.

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Lynn was the one of the moms in my very

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small friend group, and her daughter, Karen and I were

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joined at the hip, which means I was always over

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at Lynn's house or Karen was always over at mine.

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Lynn was the cool mom. Lynn was the mom who

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would She would let us make virgin strawberry dakeries in

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the blender, even if it made a mess of the kitchen,

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and she would let us borrow the car if we

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wanted to, Whereas it would have been a huge sort

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of power trip with all the rest of our parents,

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she was just like, yeah, sure, go ahead and take

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the car. It's fine. She was young, she was hip,

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she was really beautiful, and she was fun and love

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being around her kids. She adored them. And so Lynn

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is somebody that I came to know very well. Over

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the years that Karen and I went to school together

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and had sleepovers together and all the rest of that.

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I learned that Lynn had been murdered by her on again,

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off again romantic partner. They were off again at that

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point when my parents called me my freshman year of

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college and told me with the are you sitting down?

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I hate when people say that for that reason, can't

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stand that they said, are you sitting down like yours.

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My parents were both on the phone too, which is

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pretty rare because my dad and my mom don't. They

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get along, but they don't do the bulk of the

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parenting together. That's mainly my mom's job. But both my

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parents were on the phone. They said that they had

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seen in the paper that day, in March of two thousand,

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that Lynn had been murdered by her on again, off

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again romantic partner. He had her out for a date

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two nights previous. She had never come home. Her family

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went looking for her, and they found her at the

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home of her romantic partner. Again. I will not give

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his name because he doesn't deserve to have his name given.

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He had shot her to death and committed suicide himself.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: And it was the most shocking thing that had happened

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in my life up to that point. And it was

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the shock for all of us in our friend group

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because it was so splashy and because it was tabloid

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almost it made the front page of both our daily

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newspapers here, you know, the headline, romance turns deadly, very exploitative.

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Things were not the same for any of us after that,

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not for my best friend, not for her family and

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not for me either or our friend group, because all

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of us had spent time not just with Lynn, but

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with her murderer as well, and none of us had

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a clue who, not an inkling that he would have

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ever done something like this. And so those watershed moments,

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like you said, are the ones that you remember where

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you were when you when it happened, You remember how

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you reacted, and it is a change from this is

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what my life was before this happened, and now here's

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the reality afterward. And I feel terrible not only for

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the victims' families who get that phone call, but I

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feel bad for the families like the Coburgers who get

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that call too, because they didn't ask for it either.

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Speaker 2: And this has been an interesting development for us now

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over the last two years because after Alan Wade Wilmer

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Senior was identified as the suspect in the Colonial Parkway murders,

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who've been linked to three murders at that time Robin Edwards,

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David Nobling, and Teresa Howell as we mentioned, and now

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in November twenty twenty five was linked to the murder

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of Lori M. Powell. So now he's linked to four murders.

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But we've had the very un usual circumstance of connecting

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with and communicating multiple times now with his family, with

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Wilmer's family, and I remember two years ago hearing from

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the Wilmer family. They had listened to Mind over Murder

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and that had allowed them to figure out the answer

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to a question they had. The FBI had told them,

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don't talk to Bill Thomas, and I would imagine they said,

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who the heck is Bill Thomas's Bill Thomas? How would

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they know? As usual in twenty twenty five and in

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recent years, they jumped on the internet and they started

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looking around trying to figure out who Bill Thomas is.

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And then they quickly discover that Kristin Dilly and Bill

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Thomas have a podcast and Bill Thomas is the brother

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of one of the murder victims in the Colonial Parkway murders.

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They did exactly what the FBI didn't want them to do,

314
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which is they reached out to me. Now, I've spoken

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to multiple members of Wilmer's family number of times, and

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one of the things I quickly figured out was I

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don't share any animus towards members of the Wilmer family.

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Now now, Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, our deceased suspect, certainly

319
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has earned my scorn. I'll go with that word. And

320
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I don't have a great feeling about his brother Keith Wilmer,

321
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William Keith Wilmer, who died in April twenty twenty five.

322
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He's a longtime suspect in the murder of Mary Ke's

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er harding as another unsolved murder which is remarkably similar

324
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to the Colonial Parkway murders. Other than Allan and at

325
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least peripherally is brother Keith. I don't have any negative

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feelings hard feelings towards the rest of the family, as

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I've said on the podcast before. If anything, they're victims too.

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So when you're reading this article from Melkoberger being interviewed

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by The New York Times, I get where she's coming

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from and what a shock this is for members of

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these families who had nothing to do with and no

332
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knowledge of their loved ones aurable activities.

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Speaker 3: The article continues literally overnight, the mystery of who stabbed

334
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four young people to death in an ordinary neighborhood full

335
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of college students gave way to a new question. While

336
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mister Coburger, a reclusive but dedicated PhD student who had

337
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been on a path to a career in criminology, may

338
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have mounted a silent and brutal attack on four students

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from another university who had no apparent connection to him.

340
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The arrest upended the lives of the Coburger family. Tabloid

341
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stationed cameras outside their homes, snapping images of Mss Coburger's

342
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father cleaning up the damage from the police raid. Online

343
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salute scrutinized footage of Amanda acting in a twenty eleven

344
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horror film that had also involved stabbings. None of the

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families involved in any true crime case ask for this,

346
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because we live in an age of twenty four to seven.

347
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In media and tabloid culture, both the family members of

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the victims and the family members of the offenders become

349
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public commodities, and again, that is something that nobody asks for.

350
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They end up in this credibly invasive space where they're

351
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being stalked by reporters, by influencers, by self appointed media folks.

352
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I feel awful for them because it gives them no

353
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room to grieves, It gives them no room to process,

354
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and it puts them under this microscope that they don't

355
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deserve and they didn't ask for, and I feel horrible

356
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about this for them.

357
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Speaker 2: I do too. I'm going to have zero sympathy or

358
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someone like Alan Wade Wilmer Senior or William Heath Wilmer

359
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his brother. However, I have buckets of sympathy for the

360
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rest of the family. I know in the last two

361
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years we've done a lot of digging into Wilmer, and

362
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I know that makes the Wilmer family somewhat unhappy. I

363
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get it. At the same time, I'm not willing to

364
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let it go just because Wilmer's dead. First of all,

365
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it's so frustrating to me that people now have a

366
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perception that the Colonial Parkway murders have been solved when

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only one of the pairs of individuals, Robin Edwards and

368
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David Knobling, have been solved. That leaves three pairs Kathy

369
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Thomas or Beckadowski, Keith call Cassandra Haley, Anna, Maria Phelps

370
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and Daniel Lower. These cases remain unsolved. And I find

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it really frustrating that people I think are mostly well meaning,

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but they'll say, oh, I thought those cases were solved.

373
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First of all, We've been hearing this for decades. No,

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these cases aren't solved, and even now with Wilmer being identified,

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we are still hopeful that the FBI and the Virginia

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State Police will continue to do their job and further

377
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identify who the other responsible parties are, Whether it's Wilmer

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his accomplices, of which we think there are several, and

379
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I should mention several of whom are still alive. It

380
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could be any of them. It could be a completely

381
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unknown person to us. I do understand the families of

382
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Coburger and Wilmer and others that find this very bright

383
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light to be incredibly invasive and uncomfortable for them. I

384
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really have no acts to grind with the members of

385
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those families, but a lot of what mel Coberger mentioned

386
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in this New York Times article really resonated with me

387
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because it sounded so much like my conversations with the Wilmers.

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You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

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after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

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00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,039
mindover Murder.

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Speaker 3: This next part. This is just a line all by

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itself that I think needs a little bit more discussion.

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Ms Coburger said she was anger by internet posts from

394
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people who speculated whether her family had known all along

395
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that mister Coburger was the killer that frosts my cookies.

396
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That's about the nicest way I'm gonna put it, why,

397
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because that is victim blaming at its worst and at

398
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,799
its cruelests. It cast the killer's family into a role

399
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,839
they don't deserve, and assumes that killers in psychopaths are

400
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,839
easily identifiable when most canon do hide in plain sight.

401
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,559
Speaker 2: We've seen this before, and I don't know how the

402
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,599
Coburger family is supposed to know that these very dark

403
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,559
thoughts and impulses and ultimately these are things that he

404
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,880
acted out upon. I don't know how the heck they're

405
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,240
supposed to know this stuff. We've all talked about this

406
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,000
before on Mind over Murder and elsewhere. Never know what's

407
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,319
inside someone else's head. Let me just give you an example.

408
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A person here in town I won't name names committed

409
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suicide a couple of years ago in the yard of

410
00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:07,720
a home that's nearby to ours. Oh my god, this

411
00:24:07,799 --> 00:24:11,000
guy had a lot of issues. I didn't know him personally,

412
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had a lot of issues, mental health issues, some problematic

413
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,039
relationships and so on. But he sat himself out late

414
00:24:20,079 --> 00:24:22,519
at night, and I wouldn't be surprised if drugs and

415
00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:25,279
alcohol were involved here, But he sat himself out in

416
00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:29,119
a lawn chair and blew his brains out outside the

417
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home that was being rented by his former girlfriend, whom

418
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,839
I did know. This was a shocking news to find

419
00:24:35,839 --> 00:24:38,720
out early the next morning that he had killed himself

420
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just one hundred yards from our house, out in the

421
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yard and a place where we could clearly see if

422
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:45,960
we were standing on our front steps. You never know

423
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,359
what's going on inside someone else's head. Much in the

424
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,119
same sad way, this man did away with himself, and

425
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,079
did it in a way that was deeply symbolic outside

426
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the home of the woman he used to date. There

427
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,440
was a terrible story. A lot of people here in

428
00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:07,279
town tended to stay things like oh, if I'd only known,

429
00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:10,480
I would have helped them. And I do understand all that.

430
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,400
But I also thought to myself, you can never know

431
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,759
what's going on inside someone else's head, what pain they're

432
00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:23,640
going through, what extreme dark impulses they're struggling with. I'm

433
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,680
not sympathetic to coburger in any way, shape or form,

434
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,160
and Coburger deserves to sit in jail for the rest

435
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,440
of his life. All of us who tend to look

436
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,119
at people and think, if I'd only known, perhaps I

437
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,160
could have helped, shouldn't be beating ourselves up about that,

438
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,880
because you're actually never going to know unless someone reaches

439
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,319
out to you and says, hey, I'm really struggling with

440
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:47,599
this issue, whatever it is.

441
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Speaker 3: One of the things that I have made a point

442
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,400
of doing over the years is reading the memoirs of

443
00:25:55,519 --> 00:26:00,119
people who live with and love and we're family members

444
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,480
of serial killers. I think some of the best reads

445
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,279
that I have read recently was ed Nikel Martin's book

446
00:26:07,319 --> 00:26:11,559
about her cousin Ted Bundy, She Had No Idea, Carrie

447
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,960
Rawson's memoir about life with her father Dennis Raider, The

448
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,480
BTK Killer. One very affecting memoir that I would definitely recommend,

449
00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:24,799
but not unless you're really ready to deal with the

450
00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:28,039
effects of it, is from Sue cleebold And she is

451
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,319
Dylan Kleeboldt's mother, who was one of the Columbine School shooters,

452
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,680
and she wrote a serian memoir called A Mother's Reckoning

453
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,359
where she really talked about how much she wished she

454
00:26:39,599 --> 00:26:42,440
understood what was going on that turned her son into

455
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,839
a killer, but that she continued to say, I had

456
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,480
no idea. I had no idea. This idea that people

457
00:26:49,559 --> 00:26:52,279
have that, oh I would know if a loved one

458
00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:55,079
of mine was a serial killer. And I get it

459
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,160
because we want to think that we're smart enough and

460
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,440
savvy enough to see it. We want to think that

461
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,759
we know someone well enough to clock it. You can't

462
00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:07,279
put that on yourself. For many years, the people in

463
00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:10,599
my friend group, we all sat around and said, could

464
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,359
we have seen what Lynn's killer like? Should we have

465
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,240
seen what he was going to do? Could we have

466
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,799
known somehow? What did we miss? And it was something

467
00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:23,119
that ate all of us up. We spent time with him.

468
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,079
How could we not have known? But the reality is

469
00:27:26,279 --> 00:27:28,839
we couldn't have known. There is no way that we

470
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,880
could have known. But it took a long time for

471
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,079
all of us to reckon with that and to come

472
00:27:35,279 --> 00:27:38,480
to the knowledge that there is no way to really

473
00:27:38,519 --> 00:27:41,480
know what is going on inside someone. It's not like

474
00:27:41,839 --> 00:27:46,319
serial killers walk around dropping clues as to what they're doing.

475
00:27:46,599 --> 00:27:49,880
They're very skilled at this. Again, you can look at

476
00:27:50,039 --> 00:27:53,799
Dennis Rader. He was able to keep whole facets of

477
00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:57,079
his personality, of him as a father, away from the

478
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,759
facets of his personality that were him as a killer.

479
00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:04,319
Speaker 2: Pillar of the community. To use the cliche, a church

480
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,960
going guy. Remember they caught raider because he was using

481
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:13,279
the computer at his church. I love this that law

482
00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:16,279
enforcement lied to him when he asked, can you tell

483
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,160
if something's come from a particular computer? And a court

484
00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:22,920
law enforcement said, oh, of course not. Oh no, that's

485
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,279
not possible. And he actually sent them a floppy disk.

486
00:28:27,519 --> 00:28:31,240
This sounds like ancient technology at this point. By sending

487
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,440
one of his taunting letters on a floppy disk, he

488
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,160
didn't realize that was imprinted with the unique identifier the

489
00:28:39,319 --> 00:28:42,799
number of that computer, so that later on they were

490
00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:46,519
able to look at that computer and determine this is

491
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,519
coming from this particular church. Look, I'm very interested in

492
00:28:50,559 --> 00:28:52,279
true crime, and I know you are too, and we

493
00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:55,119
have a lot of friends who listen to this podcast

494
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,400
and others that are fascinated by true crime. But I

495
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,279
think it's the height of arrogance for someone to think

496
00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:04,920
that they're going to be able to figure out in

497
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:10,680
advance what someone is thinking. It just doesn't work that way. Now.

498
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,079
In the example you just brought up with Lynd's tragic death.

499
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,599
You actually knew the offender.

500
00:29:16,279 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, we did. We'd spend a lot of time around

501
00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:21,440
him as a friend group. He was always at her house.

502
00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:23,160
They were linked romantically.

503
00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: It's very natural to think what did I miss? And

504
00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:31,400
I do understand it. I find it really baffling and

505
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,079
a little galling, to be frank, that someone thinks they're

506
00:29:35,079 --> 00:29:38,200
going to be able to think through what someone they

507
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,920
never even met was thinking. Whether it's a Ted Bundy

508
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,160
or a dentist raider or whomever. Oh, they would have

509
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,720
been able to figure this out. And we've also seen

510
00:29:47,799 --> 00:29:52,519
people say some incredibly cruel things in the Coburger example,

511
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,759
about the fact that they should have known, how could

512
00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:59,920
they not know, and that the Coburgers were covering up

513
00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:05,000
for Brian Coburger. Look, the guy clearly had struggles. We've

514
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:08,400
all read a lot about him. None of those things

515
00:30:08,519 --> 00:30:11,480
add up to this guy is going to turn into

516
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:15,079
a brutal spreek killer that kills four college students, that

517
00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:18,440
he doesn't seem to have any personal relationship with whatsoever.

518
00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:22,319
None of that adds up to the Coburgers had to know.

519
00:30:23,079 --> 00:30:27,519
And yet it's those unspeakably cruel things that were said

520
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,559
about the Coburger family. Do I have negative feelings about

521
00:30:31,599 --> 00:30:35,480
Brian Coburger, You bet that doesn't extend to his parents

522
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:36,960
and his sisters.

523
00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: The article continues with a quote from Mel Coburger. I've

524
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,559
always been a person who's spoken up for what was right,

525
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,799
she said. If I ever had a reason to believe

526
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,279
my brother did anything, I would have turned him in.

527
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,400
For the past three years, the family has kept quiet,

528
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,119
avoiding interviews, even as mister Coberger pleaded guilty and accepted

529
00:30:54,119 --> 00:30:57,519
four life sentences. His parents and siblings wanted to do

530
00:30:57,599 --> 00:31:00,279
everything in their power to respect the victims' families during

531
00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:03,559
the legal process, Miss Coburger said, and even now she

532
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,279
expresses fear that she might say something that would further

533
00:31:06,599 --> 00:31:10,720
traumatize them. Her family's challenges, she said several times, cannot

534
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,920
compare to what those families have endured.

535
00:31:13,519 --> 00:31:15,359
Speaker 2: I think those are all excellent points.

536
00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:17,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it has to be very difficult for them to

537
00:31:17,839 --> 00:31:19,759
know that there's nothing they can say or do that

538
00:31:19,799 --> 00:31:22,400
will make this in any way easier, and that is itself.

539
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,279
I think its own type of agony.

540
00:31:24,039 --> 00:31:25,319
Speaker 2: And they're going to have to live with this for

541
00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:28,559
the rest of their lives, not just Coburger, but every

542
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:34,400
person associated with Brian Coberger, his parents, his siblings, other

543
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,759
family members. The list just goes on and on, and

544
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,759
that in itself, like you say, is a form of torture.

545
00:31:41,319 --> 00:31:43,319
Speaker 3: And while the family still does not want to discuss

546
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:46,079
the crime itself, Mss Coburger agreed recently to share a

547
00:31:46,119 --> 00:31:48,359
part of their story, saying she hoped that she could

548
00:31:48,359 --> 00:31:50,400
bring out the truth about her family and what it

549
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,799
has been like to be dragged into the epicenter of

550
00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:56,920
a true crime epic family members of high profile criminals

551
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,000
have long struggled to navigate the collateral infamy thrust upon them.

552
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,359
The Coburgers found themselves not just interrogated by detectives, but

553
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,400
subject to the scrutiny of an assortment of amateur slews,

554
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,079
part of a true crime fervor that has brought millions

555
00:32:11,119 --> 00:32:15,039
of people together in Facebook groups, Reddit forums, and YouTube channels.

556
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,400
This again, is where we need to get into the

557
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,880
idea that we have to have some ethics and some

558
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,880
standards in the true crime space. And it's not just

559
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,000
vowing to respect the families of the victims, but it's

560
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,960
to respect the family of the offenders. The offenders do

561
00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:36,519
not warrant our respect or our sympathy. I think we

562
00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:39,400
can all agree on that. But their families did not

563
00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:42,759
ask for this, and there's no manual for how to

564
00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:45,599
navigate it, just like there's no manual for how to

565
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,480
deal with becoming the loved one of a murder victim.

566
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,039
There is no manual out there for what do you

567
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,480
do when your loved one becomes an infamous killer.

568
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,279
Speaker 2: No, I agree, and I understand people's anger. Trust me,

569
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,960
I have plenty of anger in my sister Kathy and

570
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,200
the rest of the Colonial Parkway murders. Directing that anger

571
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,319
towards the family of the offender, it's beyond insane and

572
00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:15,559
it's unfair. And because in a number of these examples,

573
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,440
except during a victim's impact statement, assuming the offender is alive,

574
00:33:20,599 --> 00:33:23,480
there's an opportunity to speak, which I think has great value.

575
00:33:23,519 --> 00:33:25,640
As we've talked about here on mind of a murder

576
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,960
before lashing out at the offender is one thing. They

577
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,960
probably deserve your scorn and more to lash out at

578
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,839
the family members, the parents, the siblings, the spouses of

579
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,000
an offender. It's beyond unfair. These people are going to

580
00:33:42,079 --> 00:33:45,720
have to live with this for the rest of their lives,

581
00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:48,200
just like those of us who've lost loved ones will

582
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,000
have to do that excruciating pain that they're going through

583
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:53,480
that never goes away either.

584
00:33:54,119 --> 00:33:57,119
Speaker 3: The article continues. When her brother was arrested, ms Coberger

585
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,119
had been training to start a job as a mental

586
00:33:59,119 --> 00:34:02,240
health counselor, but her new employer was so flooded with

587
00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:06,640
inquiries that she agreed to abandon the position. More recently,

588
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,920
a book about the case emerged on Amazon, with an

589
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,079
author listed as Melissa J. Koberger suggesting that someone was

590
00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:15,840
trying to make money by selling a false version of

591
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,840
her story. It's confusing, she said. It's painful. It's like

592
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,880
being victimized but not really being a victim. Imagine being

593
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,000
preyed upon by someone so dishonest that they would attempt

594
00:34:27,039 --> 00:34:30,920
to profit from your family's pain and tragedy. That's gross.

595
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 2: I'm seeing a lot of YouTube videos in particular on

596
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,760
the Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm talking about a dozen

597
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,320
in the last year. Yeah, perhaps more that are gross.

598
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:48,880
They're inaccurate. They use our family's names, but then they

599
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,480
throw up pictures of completely random garbage that aren't of

600
00:34:53,519 --> 00:34:57,920
the victims that aren't even of the locations. Many of

601
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,920
them are AI generated. It's like they just gathered up

602
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,480
a whole bunch of footage. Sometimes you and I look

603
00:35:04,519 --> 00:35:09,199
at these things and they are horrifically inaccurate. They'll show

604
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,280
mountainous terrain, for example, for the Colonial Parkway, which if

605
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,119
you haven't figured out, if you've never been there, it's

606
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,559
along the water, it's along these major rivers, it's flat,

607
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,760
it's beautifully wooded, but it sure doesn't look like the

608
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:29,559
rocky mountains. These pictures that they throw up, supposedly the victims,

609
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,920
they're just pictures of people. They're just stock photography. It

610
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:36,480
just makes me crazy. One of the things that's been

611
00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:38,920
very important to me over the years is, at least

612
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,400
let's get the basic facts of the Colonial Parkway murders straight,

613
00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:46,159
so that if people want to help, if they want

614
00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:50,239
to provide information to law enforcement, participate in the conversation,

615
00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:53,760
let's at least present these things in ways that are

616
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,039
reasonably accurate. I just find it infuriating to see this

617
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,239
crap mostly on YouTube. I see these videos regularly now.

618
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,719
I watch them all and I hope that they'll be

619
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:11,079
reasonably accurate, and I'm disappointed so often because they're just

620
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:12,880
AI generated crap.

621
00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 3: The article continues. Mister Coberger grew up in the Poconos

622
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,400
in a home centered and family with readings of books

623
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,559
like Little House in the Prairie and lessons rooted in

624
00:36:21,639 --> 00:36:24,440
their mother's Catholic upbringing. Ms Coburger said she and her

625
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,239
brother and sister had been imbued with values of loyalties,

626
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,639
self reliance, and putting the needs of others ahead of

627
00:36:29,679 --> 00:36:32,440
their own. Some of her fondest childhood memories were the

628
00:36:32,519 --> 00:36:35,320
Knights when her parents, Mary Anne and Michael, ordered takeout

629
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,840
food and woke up the children laying blankets out on

630
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,280
the deck. There they all looked up the stars, talking

631
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,159
about astronomy and the wonders of the world. Friends have

632
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,960
described how mister Coberger had been overweight as a teenager

633
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,559
and had a standoffish personality, something the family now believes

634
00:36:49,639 --> 00:36:53,440
was related to autism. He injured persistent bullying. Miss Coburger

635
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,400
said he wrote online during those years of having no emotion,

636
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,480
little remorse, and feeling as if he was an organic

637
00:36:59,519 --> 00:37:02,639
sack of me with no self worth. Later, he spiraled

638
00:37:02,639 --> 00:37:06,079
into heroin addiction when he stole Miss Coburger's phone and

639
00:37:06,119 --> 00:37:08,360
sold it at a mall to buy more drugs. She said.

640
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,480
Her parents alerted the police. Miss Coburger said they were

641
00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:13,079
all worried that he was on a path to an

642
00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:15,760
early death, as ultimately happened with one of his friends.

643
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,760
But after he went through treatment, she said, mister Coburger

644
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,119
seemed to be on a better trajectory. She and her

645
00:37:21,119 --> 00:37:24,199
brother both shared an interest in crime in psychology. She

646
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,960
was pursuing a career in mental health therapy. He began

647
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,320
discussing a career in policing, going on to study psychology

648
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,079
at the Sales University in eastern Pennsylvania before getting accepted

649
00:37:34,119 --> 00:37:37,840
into a PhD program in criminology at Washington State University.

650
00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:40,719
We were all so proud of him because he'd overcome

651
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,760
so much, she said. He was still socially awkward and

652
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,079
could be abrasive. She said they often argued, still, she

653
00:37:47,119 --> 00:37:49,559
said she never saw him be violent. When she once

654
00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:51,800
tried to force him out of the house during an argument,

655
00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:55,159
he de escalated the situation by holding back her hands.

656
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,239
The lack of a violent history was one reason the

657
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,519
family found it so disorienting to hear that mister Coberger

658
00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:04,199
was accused of such a barbaric crime.

659
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,119
Speaker 2: And this is somewhat familiar. When I talked to the

660
00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:12,760
Wilmer family, they had no idea. One of the family

661
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,039
members said to me, it's almost like there were two Allen's.

662
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,599
There was the Allen that we knew this is in

663
00:38:19,679 --> 00:38:25,920
Lancaster County, Virginia, and then a completely different person when

664
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,280
he was down in Hampton. Was the way they put it.

665
00:38:29,559 --> 00:38:33,280
Meaniept in Virginia, almost like a doctor Jekyl and mister

666
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,800
Hyde kind of thing, where there were these two personalities.

667
00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:40,360
One the guy they knew. He and his wife had

668
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,280
gotten married just out of high school sweethearts. He was quiet, unassuming,

669
00:38:46,079 --> 00:38:50,360
a good provider, a hard worker, but not violent, not

670
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,119
dark in the way that you would think, at least

671
00:38:54,159 --> 00:38:57,239
not in front of his wife and kids. And the

672
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,960
two kids and some people had taken some pokes at

673
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,360
them online. They were eight and ten years old at

674
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,960
the time of the Colonial Parkway murders. They're not going

675
00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:12,960
to know anything about Wilmer's dark impulses or even his activities,

676
00:39:13,079 --> 00:39:15,559
which now connect them to at least four murders, and

677
00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:19,480
I think will connect them to further unsolved murders in Virginia.

678
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,440
It doesn't feel like his family would have had any

679
00:39:22,559 --> 00:39:24,719
way of knowing these things.

680
00:39:25,159 --> 00:39:27,199
Speaker 3: In the days before the raid, the family had gathered

681
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:30,159
for Christmas. Ms Cothberger remember being thrilled to see her

682
00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:33,679
brother back home in Pennsylvania and hugging him tightly to

683
00:39:33,679 --> 00:39:35,960
accommodate the strict diet he now followed. Their mother had

684
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,039
made him vegan cookies for the holidays. They played TV

685
00:39:39,119 --> 00:39:42,039
party games. One night, as Miss Coburger was cleaning up

686
00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:44,400
the kitchen, a sharp edge of foyle caused her finger

687
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,400
to bleed, and her brother, initially expressing disgust at the

688
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,320
sight of blood, helped clean the cut and cover it

689
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,239
with the bandage. During those days at home, Miss Coberger

690
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,719
said she recalls him only briefly mentioning the Idaho murders,

691
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,679
saying that investigators were still hunting for the killer. Investigators,

692
00:39:59,679 --> 00:40:02,199
after go weeks without naming a suspect, had turned to

693
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,360
the public in early December and requested help finding a

694
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,800
white Hyundai Elantra of a model year between twenty eleven

695
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,559
and twenty thirteen that had been seen circling near the

696
00:40:11,639 --> 00:40:14,800
victim's house on the night of the killings. Mss Coburger,

697
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,320
knowing that her brother had driven a white Lantra back

698
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,960
from school, said she briefly wondered if they were looking

699
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,320
for the same model, but then learned that his was

700
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,840
from a different year twenty fifteen. Unknown to the family,

701
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,320
investigators had pinpointed mister Coberger as a suspect within days

702
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,800
of his return to Pennsylvania. They were already surveilling the house.

703
00:40:33,559 --> 00:40:36,639
We have a lot more to discuss about this article,

704
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,480
so we are going to put a pin in this

705
00:40:39,639 --> 00:40:42,679
episode for now and come back to it with a

706
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,519
part two very soon. That is going to do it

707
00:40:46,639 --> 00:40:50,639
for this episode of mind Over Murder, the first of

708
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,960
January twenty twenty six. We are now what are we

709
00:40:54,119 --> 00:40:55,280
seven years old? Now?

710
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,559
Speaker 2: Bill, we are. We've just passed over and entered our

711
00:40:59,599 --> 00:41:01,480
seventh season on mind Over Murder.

712
00:41:02,079 --> 00:41:06,599
Speaker 3: Unbelievable. Thank you all so much for listening. We'll see

713
00:41:06,639 --> 00:41:07,440
you next time.

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Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

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Another Dog Productions.

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Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

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Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

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Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud.

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Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.

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Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

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Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

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murders on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

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Bill Thomas. Five six.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder

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Speaker 3: At as