WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dalhmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:40.640 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:45.799 On May thirty first, nineteen eighty five, two days before 8 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:50.240 her high school graduation, Erry Smith was abducted from the 9 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:55.119 driveway of her family home in South Carolina. Based on 10 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:58.479 the crime scene and the abductors repeated and taunting calls 11 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:02.920 to the family, law enforcement quickly realized they were dealing 12 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:08.640 with a sophisticated and highly dangerous criminal. A letter arrived 13 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:13.439 the next day entitled Last Will and Testament, in which Sherry, 14 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:17.040 knowing she was to be murdered, wrote bravely and achingly 15 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:21.359 of her love for her parents, siblings, and boyfriend, saying 16 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:24.319 that while they would miss her, she knew they would 17 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:29.680 persevere through their faith. The abduction rocked her quiet town, 18 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:34.120 triggering a massive man hunt and bringing in the FBI, 19 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:40.239 which enlisted profiler John Douglas. A few days later, a 20 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:43.959 phone call told the family where they could find Sherry's body. 21 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.079 Then nine year old Deborah may Helmick was kidnapped from 22 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.640 her yard, confirming the harsh realization that Smith's murder was 23 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:58.920 no random act. A serial killer was evolving, and the 24 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:01.560 only way to stop would be to use the study 25 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:05.840 of criminal behavior to anticipate his next move before he 26 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:11.719 could kill again. Douglas devised a risky and emotionally fraught 27 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:16.280 strategy to use Sherry's lookalike older sister Dawn as bait 28 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:21.240 to draw out the unknown subject. Dawn and her parents 29 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:28.520 courageously agreed. One of the most haunting investigations of Douglas's 30 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:33.520 story career, this case details how the eerily accurate profile 31 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:38.919 he created, alongside his carefully crafted and stage managed manipulation 32 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:43.719 of the killer psychology, combined with dedicated police work and 33 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:47.520 cutting edge forensic science to end a reign. 34 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:48.280 Of criminal terror. 35 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:53.840 As Sherry's family took incredible personal risks to lure her 36 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.280 killer from the shadows, Douglas and the FBI pushed criminal 37 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:02.680 profiling to its limits, culminating in one of his most 38 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:07.960 dramatic and effective confrontations with a sadistic and remorseless killer. 39 00:03:09.319 --> 00:03:11.680 The book that we're featuring this evening is When a 40 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:16.800 Killer Calls, a haunting story of murder, criminal profiling, and 41 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:21.039 justice in a small town, with my very special guest, 42 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:27.319 legendary FBI criminal profiler and best selling author, John Douglas. 43 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:30.000 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 44 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:30.639 this interview. 45 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:36.199 John Douglas. Hello, Welcome to the program. John Douglas. Thank 46 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:37.199 you so much for joining me. 47 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:41.919 You've been busy, You've done so many reviews. It's amazing. 48 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:44.879 Well, thank you. I've had the privilege of working with 49 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:48.240 people like yourself. It's a great thrill and it's an 50 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:50.560 honor to be able to be able to discuss a 51 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.759 book like When a Killer Calls with you. Let's talk 52 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:56.680 about first as you do in the book When a 53 00:03:56.759 --> 00:04:01.039 Killer Calls May thirty first, nineteen eighty five, and tell 54 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:04.520 us a little bit about Sherry Smith and her family 55 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:07.240 and what she was doing on May thirty first, nineteen 56 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:07.879 eighty five. 57 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:14.400 Yeah, on May thirty first, nineteen eighty five, Scherry Face 58 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:17.759 Smith was at a pool party earlier that day with 59 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:22.639 her friends and her boyfriend. And it's a Friday, and 60 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:25.240 on Sunday, she's going to be graduating from high school. 61 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:28.800 She'll be singing the national anthem. She had a beautiful voice. 62 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:31.920 She was going to be in a music major. And 63 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:34.600 in looking back on the case at that time, then 64 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:36.680 we learned that they were before they came home. They 65 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:40.319 were in a parking lot at a store, probably you know, 66 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:42.879 saying goodbye or kissing each other. But little did they 67 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:46.680 know that someone was watching them. This is in Lexington, 68 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:51.639 South Carolina. And so she drives home and she gets 69 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:54.399 to front of her house as a mailbox. The house 70 00:04:54.399 --> 00:05:00.279 sits back about two hundred yards from the mailbox. Mister 71 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:02.560 Smith is in the front room. He has an office. 72 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:05.360 He looked out. He sees she drives up in a 73 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:09.240 little car chavette, and she's usually does that and checks 74 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:12.360 the mail. So she's seen going to the mailbox. Really 75 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.079 doesn't pay attention anymore. He leaves the room and he 76 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:17.920 comes back about five ten minutes later, and he sees 77 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.639 the car down there, But where's his daughter. His daughter 78 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:23.120 is not there, So he jumps in his own car 79 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:27.160 and he drives down to the mailbox. The car is 80 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:31.360 still turned on. Her handbag is on the front seat 81 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:35.800 passenger seat. In that handbag besides her valuables, there's medication 82 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.000 that she must take. She has a rare form of diabetes, 83 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:41.519 and if she doesn't take that medicine, she just will 84 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:45.600 become dehydrated so quickly unless she just drinks really gallons 85 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.800 of water at a time. There's a set of footprints 86 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:50.759 she's coming from a pool party, shen't have shoes on, 87 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:55.240 footprints from her vehicle to the mailbox, but not coming 88 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:58.800 back away from the mailbox. And then there's mail on 89 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.319 the ground in front of the mail bucks. She's nowhere 90 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:05.120 to be seen. And so this is how it begins 91 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:08.720 that the family then contacts the police. The police right 92 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:11.560 away they think, well, you know, maybe she ran away. Now, 93 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:14.199 that doesn't fit the profile. The family says, there's nothing. 94 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:16.959 You know, she would not be a runaway. She has 95 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:23.160 graduating Sundays singing in the national anthem. So sheriff mets 96 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:27.519 for Lexington County Sheriff's Department. They create the biggest man 97 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:32.199 hunt at that time ever in the state of South Carolina. 98 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:36.000 I'm back at the Chronico and at the time we're 99 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:39.160 not a unit yet. I'm the program manager. I have 100 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:44.279 about six agents assigned to me to train them in 101 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:49.560 criminal profiling. And I got these agents in three eighty 102 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:52.560 eighty four, and most of them came in eighty four. 103 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:56.360 In beginning eighty five, after I nearly died on the 104 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:59.160 Green River murder case, those of Red mind Hunter I 105 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:03.120 know collapsed on the on that case, had viral encephalitis, 106 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:07.240 immune system, was shot and nearly died, came home paralyzed 107 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:09.920 and had to go through rehab for months and months. 108 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:11.600 At the point in my life too where I thought, 109 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:13.680 my I came so close to death that I have 110 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:16.879 what it takes anymore, because the doctor said is as 111 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:18.800 they were planning to bury me, that his brain has 112 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:20.639 been fried to a crisp. I had such a high 113 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.040 theater when I was in a coma. But anyway, so 114 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.560 we get the call, and so we will provide a 115 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:31.560 preliminary analysis, uh, you know, on the on the case. 116 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:34.079 Not right away. It's going to be a couple of days, 117 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:36.839 like within a day or so when because now the 118 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:39.399 the offender. I've never had a case like this in 119 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:43.040 my career where the offender is calling the family. He's 120 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:47.240 using some type of electronic device. We thought to change 121 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:50.680 his voice tone and you know, and and pitch, and 122 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:54.879 he is telling the family that that he has Sherry, 123 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:59.199 you know, and here we're like together with one God 124 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:02.639 and at giving them hope that their daughter is alive. 125 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:05.240 You know, what is the motivation? Is it ransom? No, 126 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:09.879 he's not asking for money. Is a sexual motivation? Yes, 127 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.160 it's probably going to be a sexual motivation and involved here. 128 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:18.879 But why does the offender feel compelled to call the family, open, 129 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.920 taunt up and taunt them believing that their daughter is 130 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:26.720 still alive? And so at that point in time, the 131 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.519 undershriff will come up to Chronica with crime scene because 132 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:34.559 what will happen next is that he will give very 133 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:38.399 detailed directions where her body is found a couple of 134 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.120 days later. And you could tell from first you can 135 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:44.200 tell from the tape, you can audio tapes. You can 136 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:49.039 tell that just when he speaks, he's very very obsessive, compulsive, 137 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:52.240 and when he's talking to the family, if he's interrupted, 138 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.240 it just he has to backtrack it. He can't, he 139 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:58.679 loses his train of thought. And so but now he 140 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:03.159 gives these directions to find the body of Sherry days smith. 141 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:05.879 He doesn't say that she's dead. He just says that 142 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:08.759 in fact was plural that like will be there, you'll 143 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:11.759 find kind of like us, we will be there and 144 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:16.399 he's telling the other sister this dawn the directions, and 145 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:19.840 to give such detailed directions, it's kind of reinforced the 146 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:22.799 research we were conducting how offenders will go back through 147 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.080 the crime scenes that the victims aren't aren't found, you know, 148 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:29.679 right away, for various reasons, some to symbolically roll in 149 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:32.679 the dirt and relive and fantasize about the crime like 150 00:09:32.799 --> 00:09:36.240 Ted Bundy did, and many many you know, others, but 151 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:39.840 details that he had to go back to come up 152 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:43.360 with these specific details. And so it's when now her 153 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:46.519 body is going to be found and we're still we're 154 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:51.120 not dispatched down there yet because at any given time, Dan, 155 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:54.960 we're working you know, at that time, at the time, 156 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:57.159 he could be working maybe a couple of hundred cases. 157 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:01.080 At that time when I retire from the bureau, we 158 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:04.879 were doing a thousand cases a year, and these cases 159 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.120 Linum just stay open until new leads are developed. So 160 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:12.120 then now with the death of sheriffs, they smith the 161 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:16.639 undershriff comes up. And what's advantageous to us is that 162 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:19.720 the under sheriff and the sheriff both attended the FBI 163 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:23.960 Academy's National Academy course and it's an eleven week course 164 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.759 that they take from police from all They come in 165 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:29.840 from all over the world to this eleven week program. 166 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:34.519 It's very prestigious. They take various courses from forensic science, firearms, 167 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:38.000 to management courses and behavioral science. And it was in 168 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:41.159 that behavioral science class that each of them took where 169 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:46.000 they learned about this new investigative tool they're calling criminal profiling. 170 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:47.720 And so it was because of that. You know, a 171 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:49.559 lot of the cops when they take that course and 172 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:51.720 they see these cases, they think, I will never have 173 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:54.919 anything they need this and we have crimes like that. 174 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.200 Well they did, and so he comes up and they're 175 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:01.159 very open and which will make it very easy for 176 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:04.200 us to work with the police because because sometimes you're 177 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:07.600 invited on cases and it doesn't necessarily mean they want 178 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:10.279 you there. It's because the pressure may be put on 179 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:15.399 them by the media, the general public, or maybe sometimes 180 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:18.960 someone who tended the FBI National Academy want you there, 181 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:21.919 but you got to happy working with other detectives don't 182 00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:24.720 want you snooping around on their case. And just so 183 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:27.320 the audience knows too, Dan, we get involved in these 184 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:31.919 cases under a domestic police cooperation and it's a violation 185 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:34.879 that calls sixty two D as in dog sixty two D. 186 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:39.279 And if it's a Canadian case, it'll be international police cooperation. 187 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:42.279 And what you do, what you're doing here is if 188 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:45.919 we have something that another country doesn't have or a 189 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:49.159 local police doesn't have something, maybe forensically in this case, 190 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:53.279 in this prime analysis, we can get involved in the case. 191 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:55.919 We won't prosecute the case, but we will assist the 192 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:59.440 local police. So the Lewis McCarty, the un the sheriff 193 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:03.039 comes up and we listened to tapes, have the crime scene, 194 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:05.679 the crime scene, and then we start drawing up a 195 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:10.360 profile based upon what evidence or information that has developed. 196 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:14.480 And these crimes dan are. We saw this particular one 197 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:16.840 is going to be a white male. It showed a 198 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:20.799 degree of some criminals sophistication. First he's using the device 199 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:25.399 electronically to alter his voice. Also, we find when we 200 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:28.159 found the body there was there was the duct tape 201 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:33.120 residue on the face of it of the ferry faced myths, 202 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:36.320 sticky substance from the duct tape. And also our hair 203 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:40.960 had then cut and it was cut in our opinions 204 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:43.720 to make it more easily to remove the duct tape, 205 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.440 and the reason he removed the duct tape was because 206 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:50.120 he didn't want to lead any evidence. Duct tape is 207 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.320 a good way whenever it's used for the lab to 208 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:57.080 develop the fingerprints Slayton fingerprints off of the tape. So 209 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:58.440 we come up with that. We come up with an 210 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:02.120 age group general. Generally, when you get a case with me, 211 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:07.159 I usually start off with violent crime around in the 212 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:11.399 twenty five age bracket, and based upon the degree in 213 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:16.840 the level of criminal sophistication that we will either deduct 214 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:22.039 age or increase. As with him, with how the victim 215 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:28.200 was abducted clear daylight at her mailbox. Probably the offender 216 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.919 has some type of weapon to control or gone nice 217 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.039 to control, or so we had him placed somewhere in 218 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:39.519 the late twenties into the early thirties. With someone like this, 219 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.519 you would find a criminal history. We believe you just 220 00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:45.519 don't start off perpetrating this type of crime. So there 221 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:50.000 would be crimes from I've seen telephone calls to voyeuristic activities, 222 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:55.840 to possibly other cases of abduction or attempted abduction based 223 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:59.200 upon the device he was using electritronically to all through 224 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:02.000 his voice we believe he would have some he's a 225 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:07.240 blue collar, have some kind of background in electrical uh, electronics, 226 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.519 some type of background there another thing, someone like like 227 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:14.120 call me on sut. The unknown subject would not necessarily 228 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.759 be married. Someone like this cannot sustain a marriage. So 229 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:21.480 you'll find I just married and then in divorce. Someone 230 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.279 like this could not really survive in the military. They 231 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.480 go in the military like someone particularly at that time 232 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:30.840 in the eighties and in the seventies and eighties, a 233 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:32.480 lot of some of the in the people I interviewed, 234 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:34.720 they joined for the action they wanted to They wanted 235 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:37.159 to shoot, They wanted to shoot people. So with Bell 236 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:39.879 he we would find out later on arth Under would 237 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:44.240 join the military. He didn't get assigned to anything at 238 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:49.039 words the scene action so supposedly accidentally shot himself in 239 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.679 the leg, which got him out of the military. I 240 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:55.600 believe he'd probably shot himself purposely because he was not 241 00:14:55.679 --> 00:15:00.000 getting anywhere doing the things he wanted, you know, to do. Also, 242 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.799 we believe as time went on that if we get 243 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:11.120 a suspects that they'll change their appearance after the crime 244 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:13.639 or I mean by that, I mean they could if 245 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.440 they're heavy, they could lose weight, clean shaven, and grow 246 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:18.440 a beer. They have a beerd they'll get rid of 247 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.480 the beer, try to maybe perhaps establish an alibi, you know, 248 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:27.320 as you know as well, we're also looking we have subjects, 249 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:29.519 and he will do this. We already know this. He's 250 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:35.559 injecting himself into the investigation, like Dennis Rader, who I interviewed, 251 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.039 like David Berkowitz's son of Sam, or I interviewed like 252 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:43.799 the Zodiac case, whose case remains unsolved. So we provided 253 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:46.720 that to him and then he took it back to Lexicon, 254 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:49.919 told the sheriff and they went public and they said, 255 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:53.200 we went to the FBI, we got we know who 256 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:55.200 we're looking for. We just now we just have to 257 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:58.000 find him. We just have to find him. I will 258 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:01.120 not personally get involved in the case. We'll provide on 259 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:07.480 site consultation until Sharry's sister Dawn gets a call because 260 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:10.120 he's focusing in on the other sister now, and he 261 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.720 tells her, do you know about this Deborah Helmet case? 262 00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:17.840 And she's what a Deborah Helmet case? A nine year old? Yes, 263 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:20.919 and then he gives directions. This little nine year old 264 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:24.279 was abducted in front of her trailer her and her 265 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:26.919 parents just moved into her dad was home that day 266 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.960 and she was adductive about fifty sixty feet from the 267 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:35.159 front of that trailer and drives off with her. So 268 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:39.519 he's giving directions now to Dawn on where to find 269 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:43.720 just like he did with Sherrif Fay Smith, the specifics 270 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:47.720 of where we can find her body. And that's what happened. 271 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:51.399 Cops went out there, they found the body. Now the 272 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:56.279 call comes in from the Lexington Police to to South 273 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:00.840 or South Carolina FBI office in Columbia, South Carolina, requesting 274 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.960 on site consultation. And so that's when I go and 275 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:07.960 I get a relatively newer agent in the unit, Ron Walker. 276 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.720 It's real solid guy, but relatively new in the unit, 277 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.680 to go with me down to South Carolina. We go 278 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:19.160 down to South Carolina, they meet the sheriff again. On 279 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.680 the sheriff, they take us to all the different locations 280 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.240 and particularly that the last case held in the case 281 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:29.480 and the problem that sheriff says is that the killer 282 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:32.960 stopped calling. He stopped calling. We need him to call. 283 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:38.799 And this the subject on sub here new enough to 284 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:41.000 stay off the phone. He'd have to stay on the 285 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:43.640 phone fifteen minutes for us to do at traps and 286 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:48.160 trace on the telephone back. Then he would he would 287 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:53.160 get off the phone and within minutes, sometimes knowing that 288 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:55.799 would be out there and we would find you know 289 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.079 where he called from a pay telephone booth. We process 290 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:00.880 that and send it to the last have the coins 291 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:04.039 and everything, looking for any potential, you know, anything for 292 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:08.160 instically off him. But so I tell this, he tells 293 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:10.400 me he stopped calling. I said, I'll get him to call. 294 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.640 You'll get him to call. Yeah, I'll get him. I'll 295 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.640 get him to call. But one thing I want to 296 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.279 do is I want to meet the family. And number two, 297 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.119 I want to meet with an investigative reporter. And so 298 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:21.480 what happened is I go out to that to the 299 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:26.160 family and Robert Smith is a late lay minister. He 300 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:31.200 works in the counseling inmates. Even he was a potential suspect. 301 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:33.960 At one point we're thinking, or or someone he came 302 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.839 in contact with in the prisoner is his retaliation perhaps 303 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:41.440 against him, But we quickly eliminate, eliminated that the idea. 304 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:44.880 So me, I mean, it's it's a terrible situation. People, 305 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:49.440 everyone's destroyed, obviously crying and you're coming in on this. 306 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:55.200 And and I meet everyone and they thank us, thank me, 307 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:59.440 and you know, for trying to help. I said, I 308 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:01.720 think we can. I can come up with some idea. 309 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.079 But I'm kind of hemming and hawn dan, I'm not 310 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:07.799 really you know, you know, should I tell him? I should? 311 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.880 I suggest this idea? And the idea is, and I say, 312 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.599 mister Smith, is that I can tell and you can 313 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.279 probably tell, is that if this person is on sub 314 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:20.440 here is focusing his attention on your other daughter. Now, 315 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:23.279 don I think we got to get him to talk. 316 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.319 I think we can. We can get him to talk 317 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:29.599 if I can work with don and give her some 318 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:33.480 skills that we use in hostage negotiation. He was afraid, 319 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:36.799 he said, what if he comes and tries to kill 320 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:39.160 my daughter? I said, this is not this. This guy's 321 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.400 a coward, Missus Smith. He's not the type. He's going 322 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:43.799 to pull up into your your your driveway here and 323 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:48.200 everyone will be you know, be uh protected. And so 324 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:50.519 he agrees to this, and then Down takes me into 325 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:55.519 Sherry Fay's Smith's bedroom and where she's collector of Koala bears. 326 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.400 She had dozens of Koala bears. I see what I'm 327 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:02.200 kind of thinking in my head, what can I do 328 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:06.799 here proactively? And I'm thinking ahead of the funeral memorial service, 329 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:08.680 So I take one of the koala bears are real 330 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:11.440 small and about three inches where the type week. If 331 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:14.680 you squeeze the back of the shoulders, the paws open 332 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.920 up and then you'll let go and they close. And 333 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:21.119 so that koala bear I'll be using at a memorial 334 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:25.000 service where I'm going to have Dawn place that Koala 335 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:28.119 bear on a flower, and I'm going to have a 336 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:30.599 podium painted white and going to have a picture of 337 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.480 Dawn in the podium. Why am I doing that, Dan, 338 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:38.480 Is that from so many of the interviews I've done fenders, 339 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.720 they will take souvenirs and trophies we call them from 340 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:44.839 there from the victims, and when they go to they 341 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.119 go back to the scenes or they go back to 342 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:50.759 the cemeteries for various reasons. In the case of Ted 343 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:54.559 Bundy and some others I am My Holley's interview, they 344 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:58.200 have sex with the victims even through advanced stages of 345 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:01.680 the decomposition. Others go back to symbolically kind of roll 346 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:04.799 in the dirt that this nobody, this in significant nobody 347 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:09.039 now is becoming infamous as this a serial killer, so 348 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:12.640 they kind of fantasize and you know, and relive it. 349 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.720 So here the goal was to get the guy to call, 350 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:19.839 and I worked with an investigative reporter to poetically describe 351 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:21.960 what was going to be taking place and what took 352 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:24.640 place at that cemetery. And then we're going to have 353 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:27.960 we're going to be monitoring all the vehicles. Unfortunately from 354 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:30.480 and we had no control over. This should be buried 355 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:33.799 very close to the road within they within say one 356 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:36.960 hundred feet. We should be risky on the part of 357 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.519 the subject, but the police would be taking down a 358 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:43.079 license place and we would later moving ahead for a second. 359 00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:45.720 We will later know if we won't catch them the 360 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.319 way we will ultimately catch him. We would have came 361 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.440 up with his name, because he did in fact drive 362 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:54.000 by and he stopped and we got his plate, and 363 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:56.680 then we would have done promote on all these people 364 00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:59.200 and would have found out that this guy Larry jene 365 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.799 Belle had called criminal history one of the things. If 366 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:04.240 you don't mind me ke talking only she wanted to 367 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:08.640 jumped in stand But is the with the calls where 368 00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:13.160 and the last will and testament that he made Sherry 369 00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:17.759 Fay Smith wrote saying goodbye to her mother, her father, 370 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:23.160 her brother Robert, boyfriend Richard, and she's going to be 371 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:27.200 with Jesus now. And I want to have a closed, 372 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:30.720 closed casket, not an open casket. So she knew she 373 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:32.880 was going to die. She knew, you know, what was 374 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:36.519 going to happen to you know, to her, to her body. 375 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:40.480 And how someone could write a letter, you know like this. 376 00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:43.279 When I talked to mister Smith. Even to this day 377 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:46.839 we communicate with each other. There's no such thing as 378 00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:49.599 closure in cases like this. We always talk about closure 379 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:51.720 and an arrest been made the guys, but it really 380 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.839 never really closure. How can you okay, you have an arrest, 381 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:58.200 but that doesn't bring back my daughter. But the only 382 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:00.759 thing he felt somewhat a bit of closure. It was 383 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:04.880 from that last one. Testama knew how strong her daughter, 384 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:10.000 his daughter was, when to write that, and knowing that, 385 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:14.000 you know, she's going to be with God, and that 386 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:19.279 helped him psychologically. It didn't not so much with the mother, 387 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.000 and she would die not too many years thereafter. And 388 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:25.599 I've seen that in so many cases where it's just unbearable, 389 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.880 but they go through like Patsy Ramsay and the John 390 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:33.160 Benny Ramsey cases, Who's cancer Answer Return? And what made 391 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:36.359 this guy, this guy not just a serial killer but 392 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:39.279 a sadistic serial killer was the taunting of the family. 393 00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:43.839 And then when he talks to the mother, Hilda on 394 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:47.480 this one call and he and he tells, she asks him, 395 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:50.319 did my daughter know she was going to die? And 396 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:52.839 he says, yes, And I gave her a choice. And 397 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:58.799 your daughter was given the choices of a gunshot, drug overdose, 398 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:03.640 or suffocation, and your daughter selected suffocation. And that's when 399 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:06.880 he duct tapes. He duct taps her head and she says, Oh, 400 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:10.000 my God, how good you could you do this to 401 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:13.079