WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.680 McDonald's wraps, all flavor, no mess, no drips on your 2 00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:06.200 drip or grease on your shirts, no crumbs on your 3 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:09.039 keyboard or sauce on your dashboard. Just all the flavor 4 00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:11.880 of sweet chili, chicken, barbecue and bacon chicken and New 5 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:16.320 Tika Chicken wrapped up NAT served after eleven AM. Tika 6 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:18.679 Chicken Wrap available until thirteenth July twenty six. Fees applied 7 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:20.239 to delivery orders, project to availability. 8 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:25.320 Love MNS quality and value you can trust. At MNS 9 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:29.039 you can update your home, your wardrobe and theirs with 10 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:32.880 quality you can count on. There's the ultimate twelve euro 11 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:37.399 les bras, the softest ever kid sweats from six Euro fifty, 12 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:42.240 luxurious Egyptian cotton towels from eight euro twenty five, and 13 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:46.960 so much more value you can trust only at MNS 14 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:49.840 shop in store or at Marks and Spencer Dot. 15 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:52.640 I e oh hey, it's the lady eating berries off 16 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:54.719 a bush in the park alley ward and here we are. 17 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:57.799 We have arrived at an episode six years in the making. 18 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:00.479 I have had this ology in the specific allist on 19 00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:03.920 my list for years. We had a few near encounters 20 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:08.200 and then a pandemic lockdown, and then scheduling issues. Finally 21 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:10.760 had happened. I had researched the top folks in the 22 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:14.719 world doing psilocybin and hallucinogenic research, and over and over 23 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:16.719 he came up as the lead or the co author 24 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:21.359 on papers. And I watched this documentary on fantastic fungus applications, 25 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:23.799 and there he was on the screen and with me 26 00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:27.959 wistfully saying, that's my ologist. We've even emailed. So a 27 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:30.200 few weeks back we finally lined up our times and dates, 28 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:32.120 and I packed up my little old purse filled with 29 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:34.599 mics and SD cards, and off I went about an 30 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:37.719 hour south, just past lax and I pulled into this 31 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:40.760 parking lot near the UCLA Medical Center. I was early, 32 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:43.840 I was nervous, and in he walked his gray beard 33 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:46.840 and long hair pulled back into a low pony. He 34 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:49.959 was wearing a navy blue windbreaker, with an easy smile, 35 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:54.079 a very chill demeanor. So we ducked into this stark, 36 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:57.439 near empty office in this new building because his old 37 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:01.719 office of decades had recently been and I think condemned 38 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:02.519 and torn down. 39 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:09.319 This guy the ceiling right, Oh my god, our family 40 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:14.120 of raccoons living in like an addict and the ceiling 41 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:14.879 just came out. 42 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:17.840 So we sat in this sparkly new office, which he deserved, 43 00:02:18.199 --> 00:02:22.039 zero raccoons or hallucinations of them, and we got into 44 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:23.800 it as you will hear. But first, just a quick 45 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:26.280 thanks to everyone who sent in such great questions for 46 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:29.599 this ologist via patreon dot com slash Ologies. You can 47 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:32.120 join for one dollar a month and I may read 48 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:35.159 your questions and your name. And thanks to everyone out 49 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:38.479 there wearing ologies bathing suits and hats and shirts via 50 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:41.199 ologiesmirch dot com. We got them there for you, and 51 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:43.360 of course for no dollars. You can support just by 52 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:47.080 telling friends and texting links and social media ing or 53 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:50.319 leaving a review which I'm bound to read because I 54 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.439 never missed one such as this still warm one from Laura, 55 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:56.479 who wrote, I am a farmer who listens to podcasts 56 00:02:56.520 --> 00:02:59.840 all day long as I weed herbs and prune tomatoes. 57 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:02.639 Your interviews took on my brain and are in absolute 58 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:06.520 joy and a treasure. So Laura a Constellation farm. I 59 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.560 do not enjoy tomatoes, but I like you and herbs 60 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:12.759 and mushrooms, so let's get into it. So psychedeliology has 61 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:14.960 been used in the literature. Thank you very much, but 62 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:17.560 just a few times in published books. But I'm going 63 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:20.080 to take it. And it was coined by a psychiatrist 64 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:23.240 in the nineteen fifties from the Greek word for soul 65 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:28.199 or mind psyche paired with deluon, meaning to reveal, and 66 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:32.759 he meant it to mean mind manifesting. And this psychiatrist, 67 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.639 Humphrey Osmond, also came up with this jaunty rhyme to 68 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:41.360 fathom hell or sore angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic, 69 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:45.520 So psychedeliology it is so. This guest is a professor 70 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.479 of psychiatry and pediatrics at the UCLA School of Medicine 71 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:51.439 and the Director of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the 72 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:54.719 Harbor UCLA Medical Center. And he's the editor of the 73 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:58.319 reader Halluse Nugens. And in this two parter we'll learn 74 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:02.400 all about the history of psychedelic research in the Western world, 75 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:08.759 Who Wow and its origins in ethnobotany, How much LSD 76 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:12.719 is too much LSD? What juices are squirting in the 77 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:16.040 brain when you are tripping out? Who should not take psychedelics? 78 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.839 How this guest research has helped terminally ill patients some 79 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:24.439 serendipitous library time late night phone calls talking to dead people, 80 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:27.519 and I depress in some mushrooms and the secret government 81 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:30.319 experiments with hallucinogens. And so I note there is one 82 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.120 brief mention of suicide, and there are clearly themes of 83 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:37.639 intoxication in the episode. But strap in lay back, come 84 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:42.920 take a journey with clinical psychiatrists, researcher, author and psychedeliologist 85 00:04:43.160 --> 00:05:06.759 doctor Charles Grow. So many questions and the soologies is 86 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:10.360 a every episode is a different ology, okay, And so 87 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:16.720 I think the ology for this probably would be micro psychopharmacology. 88 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:24.199 Or psychedelologylogy, whatever I can find outology, whatever rolls off the. 89 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:28.000 Top, whatever rolls whatever, branding works. But the first thing 90 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:29.519 I'll have you do is if you could say your 91 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:31.319 first and last name, just so I make sure. 92 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:35.639 My name is Charles Grobe g R O B. I'm 93 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:39.879 an MD. I'm a professor of psychiatry and pediatrics at 94 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:42.519 the UCLA School of Medicine, and for the last thirty 95 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.040 one years I've been the director of the Division of 96 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:48.920 Child and Adolesson Psychiatry at Harbor UCLA Medical Center. 97 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:52.639 Amazing, and I know it's doctor Grow and pronounce he 98 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:53.920 him amazing. 99 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:57.879 Yeah, Ow you call me Charlie. That's I don't care. 100 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:00.920 That's fine too. My daughter says, I need to start 101 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:05.040 introducing myself as Charlie. Really, Charles is too formal. 102 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:08.639 Oh, I feel like there's such a reverence for you 103 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.879 in this field that, like doctor Grob, feels a bit 104 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:13.800 more appropriate. 105 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:18.240 The term doctor Grove. It cats out fairly daunting. But 106 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:21.279 I figure they must be referring to my father, who 107 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:25.720 was the true the originator of doctor Grove. He was 108 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:28.759 a big chief of medicine in New York for many years. 109 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:33.759 And I understand that your dad told you, when you 110 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:35.920 figure out what you want to do, you can call 111 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:36.720 me at any. 112 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:39.519 Time, anytime, day or night. When I figure out what 113 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:41.879 I'm going to do with my life, call them. So 114 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:43.920 I figured it out. They came to me one night 115 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:47.360 when I was a research assistant at my Monete's Medical 116 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:51.199 Center Dream Research Lab. My task was to monitor sleepy 117 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:55.000 egs and to wake up the person who was sleeping 118 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:58.839 and dreaming. It was in the century deprivation chamber, and 119 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:01.959 there was another person to send her down the hall. 120 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:04.839 So I had to organize all of this and I 121 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:07.720 would periodically when I saw the rem episode was coming 122 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:12.360 to an end. I would wake them up and say, Ali, Ali, 123 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:17.120 what's going through your mind? So and then you would 124 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:19.800 tell me. He Usually, dream recall is pretty good if 125 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:22.199 you have someone waking you up and it's pitch dark, 126 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:25.240 no sounds. And to stay up all night, I had 127 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:29.279 to read interesting material. And Stanley Kripner, who's a pretty 128 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:33.319 renowned psychologist in this field, who's now in his nineties, 129 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:36.920 and he's still active, he's still writing, he's still speaking. 130 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:38.639 He's truly remarkable. 131 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:42.560 So Stanley Kripner side note ninety two years old right now, 132 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.959 and he has been working in the field of altered consciousness, 133 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:50.560 in dream telepathy and weird how does this happen? Kind 134 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:53.040 of brain stuff for decades. Though of course there are 135 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:55.199 critics of his data in his studies. I mean, it 136 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:57.399 is a slippery thing to try to science. 137 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:00.319 He was one of the major investigators on this study, 138 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:04.079 and in his office he had a wonderful collection of 139 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:09.360 books on psychedelics, scientific articles on psychedelics, you know, lay 140 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:12.839 articles on psychedelics, anything you could imagine, anything that had 141 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.319 come out. And he gave me free license to roam 142 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:18.680 through his files and books lined up in shelves, and 143 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:22.199 I just read constantly in there, and then one night 144 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:25.519 I pulled a book. It was like a coffee table 145 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.600 book with a lot of pictures, a good narrative by JB. Priestley, 146 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:33.159 a British philosopher, called Man and Time. And I was 147 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:37.440 reading and staring at some of the pictures, and I 148 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.519 went through a part where there were pictures of mummies, 149 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:44.480 and you know, about twenty thirty minutes later, my subject 150 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.840 started going into a dream. I waited until her ram 151 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:51.879 was you know, dissipating, it was, you know, leaving. So 152 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:54.480 I woke her up and I said, what's going through 153 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.879 your mind? And she said, oh, I'm in a desert 154 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:00.759 and I see a pyramid, and then I was on 155 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:04.480 top of the pyramids sliding down. So I thought, whoa, 156 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:06.879 that's that's pretty that's a pretty good hit. 157 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:11.759 And that evening studying dream telepathy was just weird enough 158 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:14.960 and spooky enough to open this lifelong curiosity about the 159 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.519 very question of consciousness. And just like dreaming, there are 160 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:24.840 so many mysteries around psychedelic experiences, like how they create hallucinations, 161 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:28.919 seeming portals to other dimensions, What was fact, what was lower? 162 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:32.000 What was fiction? But it was enough to convince him 163 00:09:32.039 --> 00:09:34.879 to dedicate his life to figuring out how and why 164 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:37.600 they worked and if they could help people medically. 165 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:40.679 So it's right around then that I know there's something 166 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:43.039 in this field that I'm interested in. And I was 167 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:46.720 just so excited reading these books about the incredible potential. 168 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:49.759 And so this criticular night was about, you know, three 169 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:52.279 four in the morning, my father had said, wake him up. 170 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:56.720 Without fail I had called him up, welcome from a 171 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:58.759 deep sleep, and no idea why I was calling him. 172 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.320 We didn't make sure everything was okay, everything was fine, 173 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:03.039 but that I figured out what I want to do 174 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:05.440 with my life. He said, what's that. I want to 175 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:09.440 study psychedelics. They're fascinating so much. We can learn about 176 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:12.679 the brain, the mind brain interface, we can learn so 177 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:16.120 much about mental illness, and there's these remarkable treatments that 178 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:20.399 seemed to be helping people for whom standard conventional treatments 179 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:23.080 are not helpful. So he was silent for a while, 180 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:25.919 and then he said, well, you know, son, there may 181 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:28.519 be something to what you say, but no one will 182 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.720 listen to you unless you get your credentials, which meant 183 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:33.440 I had to go back that I dropped out of 184 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:37.399 school after my middle of my junior year. You know, 185 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:40.480 I wanted to travel. I also had infactious mounted nucleosis, 186 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:42.960 needed to rest up, and he wanted me to get 187 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:44.879 back to school. He was very clever how he got 188 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:47.519 me back to school, and years later he said, you know, 189 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:49.879 maybe I should have been, but I was a little surprised. 190 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:54.080 You stuck with that, that vision, that determination. So he 191 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:57.159 kind of understood what I was trying to do. 192 00:10:57.639 --> 00:10:59.080 From one doctor grub to another. 193 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:02.399 Yeah right, Yeah, he actually had one mushroom experience he 194 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:06.120 did in Mexico. Heah very very you know, straight lace, 195 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:10.399 you know, a big time doctor, and never had much 196 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:15.320 interest in recreational substances or explorations with psychedelics. You know. 197 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:17.919 He would drink alcohol at a social event and that 198 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:21.480 was about it. But one day I told him I 199 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:23.799 was going to go to a talk that evening given 200 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:28.799 by a Mexican psychiatrist named Salvador Roquette. He's renowned for 201 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:33.960 doing very unusual work with psychedelics, kind of sensory overload, 202 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:38.320 with sometimes combinations of psychedelics, sometimes one high dose on 203 00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:42.679 its own. So I introduced my father to Raquet after 204 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:46.480 the talk, and Riquette was talking about his operation in 205 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:48.799 Mexico City. So my father said, oh, you know, just 206 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:51.039 how happens. In a few weeks, I'm going to be 207 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:53.480 in Mexico City giving a talk at the medical school. 208 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:56.039 So Raquet said, oh, you must come and visit me. 209 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:59.000 I wrote down his address, and I'm thinking there's no 210 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:01.519 way he's going to go, especially because my mother was 211 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:04.559 going with him and she's much more conservative than him. 212 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:07.879 So they met with her. Caddie showed him around, told 213 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:11.279 him what he did, and then he said, just so happens, 214 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.360 we're having a group session tonight. Why don't the two 215 00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:15.440 of you join us? 216 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:16.159 Sorry? 217 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:18.960 And my mother right away said, oh, I could never 218 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:19.360 do that. 219 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:22.600 I have four children, really like she would be a 220 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:23.960 bad influence. 221 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:28.840 She would decompensate, couldn't care for her kids. And so 222 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.720 my father, without missing a beat, says, oh what time. 223 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:34.679 My mother was furious at him. He had to tell him, 224 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:36.840 it's not going to do it. He was just talking 225 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:39.759 through that and to prove it, because Raquett also said, 226 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:41.840 if you're going to come, don't eat anything the rest 227 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:44.039 of the day. So it proved to my mother that 228 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:45.759 he was not going to go. They went out and 229 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.519 had a big lunch after what he said, you know, 230 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.000 I changed my mind again. I'm going, oh dear, oh dear, 231 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:55.039 So he got my mother's furious when my father goes. 232 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.879 So it's a group of about twenty people in a 233 00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:03.519 large room, sitting along and there's this very intense music, 234 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:11.000 and simultaneously three videos are going one of beautiful, aesthetically 235 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:15.399 pleasing scenes from nature, another of erotomania of anything you 236 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:19.879 could imagine, and the third of documentary footage of warfare 237 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:21.639 bodies in the street execution. 238 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:25.519 So his doctor dad is tripping in a room with 239 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:30.120 visuals of like a beautiful screensaver of nature, another of 240 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:34.559 essentially vintage porn, and then another wall footage of an 241 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:37.759 actual bloodbath. And I'm hoping that the attendance was free, 242 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:40.799 because that sounds like a mixed bag. Oh, and all 243 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:43.720 of this was on a heavy lunch of like spaghetti 244 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:45.600 or beans or something just fucking kill me. 245 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:49.879 And the music was just really intense, really driving, and 246 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:53.559 the patients there were emoting very loudly, I'm sure, and 247 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.360 my father started to feel really sick, so he made 248 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.399 his way to the bathroom and wretched his guts out. Yeah, 249 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.960 and then lapse and thought this was the end of him. Meanwhile, 250 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.759 one of the helpers saw he was missing from the spot, 251 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:09.120 went into the bathroom, found him, dragged him back, propped 252 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:11.759 him up against the wall, and then my father tells 253 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:15.960 me he proceeded to have this incredible vision of a 254 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:21.440 primitive desert road, people walking across the desert, one behind 255 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:25.440 the other, connected from one to the other by their unbelikas. 256 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:29.240 Oh he realized these were his ancestors. Oh wow, that 257 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:32.559 was this very, very profound experience, and he got it. 258 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.039 I think a great deal out of it. He changed 259 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:37.960 in some funda better ways, Like I think he became 260 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:42.759 less of a type a personality, more capable of enjoying himself. 261 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.080 But he had a remarkable experience. Of course, my mother 262 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:48.320 was furious, I was going to say when she to me, Oh, 263 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:50.759 you should have seen how he looked. He looked terrible. 264 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:54.639 And rookie mistake eating a big lunch. 265 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.120 No, you never do that, But he was just that 266 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:02.120 was their relationship to these crazy situations. 267 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:06.759 Yeah, what a massively profound dreamer vision, Like all of 268 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:11.720 your ancestors tethered by this life giving flesh rope leading 269 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.720 right up to you, like the best version of a 270 00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:17.840 human centipede, and you have so so so many great 271 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.720 grandparents you don't have a clue about. And if you 272 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.720 have kids, and if you generations, your progeny might not 273 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.279 even know your name or your face unless you make 274 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.240 it into the history books or you get arrested or something. 275 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:35.200 But tickle the brain with some chemistry and it flashes 276 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:37.399 in front of you like a Willy Wanka tunnel, at 277 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.399 least for doctor Grobe's dad, Doctor Grob Was this before 278 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.440 or after you decided to study this? 279 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.039 Oh? This was after this? That is why why did 280 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:47.320 he doing it? I mean it could have been to 281 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:51.120 connect with me. It could have been because he was curious. 282 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:53.840 Who knows. You know, we talked about it a lot 283 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:56.919 afterwards over the years, and you always kind of lit 284 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.879 up when he would talk about it, get kind of animated. 285 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:02.360 But he never was inclined to do it again. 286 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:03.720 You know. 287 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.440 It's interesting because I have heard from so many people 288 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:10.480 it's one of the most impactful experiences of their lives 289 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:13.559 when done in a setting that is complimentary to what 290 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:17.679 they need, and in books like journalist Michael Pollins's first 291 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:20.480 person journey How to Change Your Mind and the Netflix 292 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:23.000 series of The same name. I have heard that a 293 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:27.600 well orchestrated, doctor approved trip like this is impactful on 294 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:30.679 par with the birth of a child, which sounds like 295 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:32.919 a little sketch. It sounds like a little bit of hype, 296 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:36.279 but people swear by it. So what is happening chemically 297 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:39.399 to make this big of an impression. So I've talked 298 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:43.360 about molecular neurobiology with doctor Crystal Dilworth in the past 299 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:47.120 about the role of neurotransmitters. Now, is a trip like 300 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:52.080 a barge of fireworks exploding, but on a subcellular level. 301 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:54.559 But is it serotonin? Is it dopamine? 302 00:16:54.759 --> 00:17:01.240 Well, it's with the classic psychedelics like psilocybin, LSD dimetholchip 303 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:05.599 to mean, it's primarily the serotonergic system. The sub receptor 304 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:09.519 is primarily the five HT two A or the serotonin 305 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.720 two A receptor. It seems to get stimulated. They are 306 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.839 a host of other sub receptors which probably have a 307 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:18.079 role in this also, I mean there are other ways 308 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:20.480 of looking at this. Robin Carhart Harris is now at 309 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:25.519 UCSF as his default mode network theory, which is that 310 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:29.279 the default mode network is tasked in central nervous system 311 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:32.599 to hold it together and to ruminate on things, to 312 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:37.839 be somewhat obsessive, somewhat negativistic. That kind of goes offline, 313 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.759 and then a short time later there's a re equilibration 314 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:46.359 process and the default mode network is far less active, 315 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:51.799 and individuals have these very profound, spiritual opening experiences, very 316 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:56.440 profound insight to their own psychodynamics, and they feel this 317 00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:59.319 is connected to what appears to be what's so interesting 318 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:05.000 about these psychedelics not that they facilitate an antidepressant response. 319 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:06.920 You know, ketamine does that also, And I'm not so 320 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:10.519 wild they're academy in part because within a week, maybe two, 321 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:14.759 you're back to baseline. But with's psilocybin or LSD or 322 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:19.160 maybe ayahuasca with DMT. Not always, but it can be 323 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.319 a sustained therapeutic effect that persists over time. 324 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.480 And is that because when you're in that state, when 325 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:30.039 you go through equilibrium again, your baseline default network is 326 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:31.359 just a little bit less active. 327 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:35.319 Yeah, Those networks in the brain kind of go offline 328 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:38.359 for a brief period of time, allowing the system to 329 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:43.480 re equiliborate. It's actually a very fancy, you know model mechanism. 330 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:47.920 I find it an appealing, you know, psychobiological. 331 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:49.559 Model just a quick overview. So there are a few 332 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:54.359 types of hosynogens from a neurobiological standpoint. So first there 333 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:58.720 are alkaloids like trip to meines which have similar chemical structures, 334 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:02.720 and they include psilicide, which can convert to silicin once digested. 335 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:07.160 And then there are the compounds of LSD and DMT, 336 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:12.079 with DMT offering much shorter trip experience. And there are 337 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:16.680 also compounds called phenethylamines like mescaline which occurs in the 338 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:20.480 cactus peyote and MDMA is sometimes called the hallucinogen, but 339 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:23.839 others argue that it's actually an empathogen which aids in 340 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.079 social connectedness. Now Ketamine, which is being explored for treatment 341 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:32.920 resistant depression, is called more of a dissociative anesthetic. Now. 342 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:36.880 Ayahuasca is a South American indigenous medicine and it's composed 343 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:41.039 of several different plant compounds and some deliver what's called 344 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:46.119 monoamine oxidase inhibitors, meaning that they prevent the brain from 345 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:50.920 sweeping away amounts of dopamine and serotonin and norepernephrine from 346 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:54.680 the synapses. That also means that the amount of neurotransmitters 347 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:57.039 in the gut can be affected, which can lead to 348 00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.559 that kind of sacred act of purging, which is just 349 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:03.559 fire hosting your problems out at both ends your body, 350 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.680 respectfully speaking. Now, the second punch of ayahuasca is also DMT, 351 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:12.640 which occurs naturally in plants and in our brains in 352 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:16.039 very small amounts. Unless you know you've just sipped some 353 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:20.359 ayahuasca tea where your entire digestive and central nervous system 354 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:25.000 becomes kind of a funhouse water slide of dreams and nightmares. 355 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:27.200 And you know, it's interesting too that you worked in 356 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:32.119 a dream research center. Is there anything correlating between dreaming 357 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:33.359 and hallucinating? 358 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:38.599 What'sing like that? Yeah? Yeah, if you talk to some 359 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.480 people who and this is particularly the case I think 360 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:46.519 with plant hallucinogens, plant psychedelics, that they will talk about 361 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:52.400 having a very introspective experience, came to a waking dream. Yes, 362 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.680 they knew where they were, they knew what was going on, 363 00:20:54.759 --> 00:20:57.160 they knew why they were there, they knew they were altered. 364 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:01.440 But they're in a reverie. They're having a vision, a 365 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.400 story is playing out, and there can be dialogue, there 366 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:05.599 can be purpose. 367 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:10.920 Yeah. Yeah, So in our Onnurology episode about dreaming, doctor 368 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:15.920 William Domhoff explained that neuroimaging research reveals hypnosis is not 369 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:20.000 like psychedelics or hallucinogens or like dreaming, and that every 370 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.519 one of those states has a different network supporting it, 371 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.519 and the dreaming network is different from all of those 372 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:31.920 altered states of consciousness networks. And as this twenty seventeen 373 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:38.559 Journal of Current Neuropharmacology paper titled Dreams and Psychedelics Neurophenomenological 374 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:44.079 Comparison and Therapeutic Implications explains, so psychedelic states are closest 375 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:47.599 to lucid dreaming, which is characterized by this mixed state 376 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:52.039 of dreaming and waking consciousness and has the potential for 377 00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:57.279 long term beneficial effects on psychosocial functioning and wellbeing. So 378 00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:01.759 tripping is not really dreaming, although some hallucinogens can also 379 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:06.079 promote vivid dreams, meaning that they're in a neuragen and 380 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:10.079 one of those substances is a Central African rainforest shrub 381 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:10.920 called iboca. 382 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:14.680 You know, that's like in West Africa there they talk 383 00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:19.200 about you. No, you feed the initiate eboca until they 384 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:22.039 have a vision of an ancestor, often in the form 385 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:25.000 of this waking dream, or they die of a cardiovascular 386 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:30.000 collapse which hy or they are very serious about their sacraments. 387 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.000 They don't mess around. And that's true. And also it's 388 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.079 true that I began has some cardiac risks, and there 389 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:40.920 have been some unfortunate fatalities, not in this country, overseas, 390 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:46.480 you know, where an individual's significant history for cardiovascular disease 391 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:49.680 was not properly recognized or taken into account. 392 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:52.720 So it's like before you run a marathon, check with 393 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:55.039 a doctor before you do evoca, maybe. 394 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:56.640 Saying you should not that the doctor will know what 395 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.079 you're talking about, but he needs to take an ekgen 396 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:02.119 see if you have a Probably the people who ran 397 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.960 into trouble had late in the arrhythmias that they may 398 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:07.240 not even have been aware of. A lot of people 399 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:09.400 don't know. If they haven't a rhythm, their chest may 400 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:12.920 go through funny flutters and flips and turns, but you 401 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:14.920