Speaker 1: McDonald's wraps, all flavor, no mess, no drips on your
Speaker 1: drip or grease on your shirts, no crumbs on your
Speaker 1: keyboard or sauce on your dashboard. Just all the flavor
Speaker 1: of sweet chili, chicken, barbecue and bacon chicken and New
Speaker 1: Tika Chicken wrapped up NAT served after eleven AM. Tika
Speaker 1: Chicken Wrap available until thirteenth July twenty six. Fees applied
Speaker 1: to delivery orders, project to availability.
Speaker 2: Love MNS quality and value you can trust. At MNS
Speaker 2: you can update your home, your wardrobe and theirs with
Speaker 2: quality you can count on. There's the ultimate twelve euro
Speaker 2: les bras, the softest ever kid sweats from six Euro fifty,
Speaker 2: luxurious Egyptian cotton towels from eight euro twenty five, and
Speaker 2: so much more value you can trust only at MNS
Speaker 2: shop in store or at Marks and Spencer Dot.
Speaker 3: I e oh hey, it's the lady eating berries off
Speaker 3: a bush in the park alley ward and here we are.
Speaker 3: We have arrived at an episode six years in the making.
Speaker 3: I have had this ology in the specific allist on
Speaker 3: my list for years. We had a few near encounters
Speaker 3: and then a pandemic lockdown, and then scheduling issues. Finally
Speaker 3: had happened. I had researched the top folks in the
Speaker 3: world doing psilocybin and hallucinogenic research, and over and over
Speaker 3: he came up as the lead or the co author
Speaker 3: on papers. And I watched this documentary on fantastic fungus applications,
Speaker 3: and there he was on the screen and with me
Speaker 3: wistfully saying, that's my ologist. We've even emailed. So a
Speaker 3: few weeks back we finally lined up our times and dates,
Speaker 3: and I packed up my little old purse filled with
Speaker 3: mics and SD cards, and off I went about an
Speaker 3: hour south, just past lax and I pulled into this
Speaker 3: parking lot near the UCLA Medical Center. I was early,
Speaker 3: I was nervous, and in he walked his gray beard
Speaker 3: and long hair pulled back into a low pony. He
Speaker 3: was wearing a navy blue windbreaker, with an easy smile,
Speaker 3: a very chill demeanor. So we ducked into this stark,
Speaker 3: near empty office in this new building because his old
Speaker 3: office of decades had recently been and I think condemned
Speaker 3: and torn down.
Speaker 4: This guy the ceiling right, Oh my god, our family
Speaker 4: of raccoons living in like an addict and the ceiling
Speaker 4: just came out.
Speaker 3: So we sat in this sparkly new office, which he deserved,
Speaker 3: zero raccoons or hallucinations of them, and we got into
Speaker 3: it as you will hear. But first, just a quick
Speaker 3: thanks to everyone who sent in such great questions for
Speaker 3: this ologist via patreon dot com slash Ologies. You can
Speaker 3: join for one dollar a month and I may read
Speaker 3: your questions and your name. And thanks to everyone out
Speaker 3: there wearing ologies bathing suits and hats and shirts via
Speaker 3: ologiesmirch dot com. We got them there for you, and
Speaker 3: of course for no dollars. You can support just by
Speaker 3: telling friends and texting links and social media ing or
Speaker 3: leaving a review which I'm bound to read because I
Speaker 3: never missed one such as this still warm one from Laura,
Speaker 3: who wrote, I am a farmer who listens to podcasts
Speaker 3: all day long as I weed herbs and prune tomatoes.
Speaker 3: Your interviews took on my brain and are in absolute
Speaker 3: joy and a treasure. So Laura a Constellation farm. I
Speaker 3: do not enjoy tomatoes, but I like you and herbs
Speaker 3: and mushrooms, so let's get into it. So psychedeliology has
Speaker 3: been used in the literature. Thank you very much, but
Speaker 3: just a few times in published books. But I'm going
Speaker 3: to take it. And it was coined by a psychiatrist
Speaker 3: in the nineteen fifties from the Greek word for soul
Speaker 3: or mind psyche paired with deluon, meaning to reveal, and
Speaker 3: he meant it to mean mind manifesting. And this psychiatrist,
Speaker 3: Humphrey Osmond, also came up with this jaunty rhyme to
Speaker 3: fathom hell or sore angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic,
Speaker 3: So psychedeliology it is so. This guest is a professor
Speaker 3: of psychiatry and pediatrics at the UCLA School of Medicine
Speaker 3: and the Director of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the
Speaker 3: Harbor UCLA Medical Center. And he's the editor of the
Speaker 3: reader Halluse Nugens. And in this two parter we'll learn
Speaker 3: all about the history of psychedelic research in the Western world,
Speaker 3: Who Wow and its origins in ethnobotany, How much LSD
Speaker 3: is too much LSD? What juices are squirting in the
Speaker 3: brain when you are tripping out? Who should not take psychedelics?
Speaker 3: How this guest research has helped terminally ill patients some
Speaker 3: serendipitous library time late night phone calls talking to dead people,
Speaker 3: and I depress in some mushrooms and the secret government
Speaker 3: experiments with hallucinogens. And so I note there is one
Speaker 3: brief mention of suicide, and there are clearly themes of
Speaker 3: intoxication in the episode. But strap in lay back, come
Speaker 3: take a journey with clinical psychiatrists, researcher, author and psychedeliologist
Speaker 3: doctor Charles Grow. So many questions and the soologies is
Speaker 3: a every episode is a different ology, okay, And so
Speaker 3: I think the ology for this probably would be micro psychopharmacology.
Speaker 4: Or psychedelologylogy, whatever I can find outology, whatever rolls off the.
Speaker 3: Top, whatever rolls whatever, branding works. But the first thing
Speaker 3: I'll have you do is if you could say your
Speaker 3: first and last name, just so I make sure.
Speaker 4: My name is Charles Grobe g R O B. I'm
Speaker 4: an MD. I'm a professor of psychiatry and pediatrics at
Speaker 4: the UCLA School of Medicine, and for the last thirty
Speaker 4: one years I've been the director of the Division of
Speaker 4: Child and Adolesson Psychiatry at Harbor UCLA Medical Center.
Speaker 3: Amazing, and I know it's doctor Grow and pronounce he
Speaker 3: him amazing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Ow you call me Charlie. That's I don't care.
Speaker 4: That's fine too. My daughter says, I need to start
Speaker 4: introducing myself as Charlie. Really, Charles is too formal.
Speaker 3: Oh, I feel like there's such a reverence for you
Speaker 3: in this field that, like doctor Grob, feels a bit
Speaker 3: more appropriate.
Speaker 4: The term doctor Grove. It cats out fairly daunting. But
Speaker 4: I figure they must be referring to my father, who
Speaker 4: was the true the originator of doctor Grove. He was
Speaker 4: a big chief of medicine in New York for many years.
Speaker 3: And I understand that your dad told you, when you
Speaker 3: figure out what you want to do, you can call
Speaker 3: me at any.
Speaker 4: Time, anytime, day or night. When I figure out what
Speaker 4: I'm going to do with my life, call them. So
Speaker 4: I figured it out. They came to me one night
Speaker 4: when I was a research assistant at my Monete's Medical
Speaker 4: Center Dream Research Lab. My task was to monitor sleepy
Speaker 4: egs and to wake up the person who was sleeping
Speaker 4: and dreaming. It was in the century deprivation chamber, and
Speaker 4: there was another person to send her down the hall.
Speaker 4: So I had to organize all of this and I
Speaker 4: would periodically when I saw the rem episode was coming
Speaker 4: to an end. I would wake them up and say, Ali, Ali,
Speaker 4: what's going through your mind? So and then you would
Speaker 4: tell me. He Usually, dream recall is pretty good if
Speaker 4: you have someone waking you up and it's pitch dark,
Speaker 4: no sounds. And to stay up all night, I had
Speaker 4: to read interesting material. And Stanley Kripner, who's a pretty
Speaker 4: renowned psychologist in this field, who's now in his nineties,
Speaker 4: and he's still active, he's still writing, he's still speaking.
Speaker 4: He's truly remarkable.
Speaker 3: So Stanley Kripner side note ninety two years old right now,
Speaker 3: and he has been working in the field of altered consciousness,
Speaker 3: in dream telepathy and weird how does this happen? Kind
Speaker 3: of brain stuff for decades. Though of course there are
Speaker 3: critics of his data in his studies. I mean, it
Speaker 3: is a slippery thing to try to science.
Speaker 4: He was one of the major investigators on this study,
Speaker 4: and in his office he had a wonderful collection of
Speaker 4: books on psychedelics, scientific articles on psychedelics, you know, lay
Speaker 4: articles on psychedelics, anything you could imagine, anything that had
Speaker 4: come out. And he gave me free license to roam
Speaker 4: through his files and books lined up in shelves, and
Speaker 4: I just read constantly in there, and then one night
Speaker 4: I pulled a book. It was like a coffee table
Speaker 4: book with a lot of pictures, a good narrative by JB. Priestley,
Speaker 4: a British philosopher, called Man and Time. And I was
Speaker 4: reading and staring at some of the pictures, and I
Speaker 4: went through a part where there were pictures of mummies,
Speaker 4: and you know, about twenty thirty minutes later, my subject
Speaker 4: started going into a dream. I waited until her ram
Speaker 4: was you know, dissipating, it was, you know, leaving. So
Speaker 4: I woke her up and I said, what's going through
Speaker 4: your mind? And she said, oh, I'm in a desert
Speaker 4: and I see a pyramid, and then I was on
Speaker 4: top of the pyramids sliding down. So I thought, whoa,
Speaker 4: that's that's pretty that's a pretty good hit.
Speaker 3: And that evening studying dream telepathy was just weird enough
Speaker 3: and spooky enough to open this lifelong curiosity about the
Speaker 3: very question of consciousness. And just like dreaming, there are
Speaker 3: so many mysteries around psychedelic experiences, like how they create hallucinations,
Speaker 3: seeming portals to other dimensions, What was fact, what was lower?
Speaker 3: What was fiction? But it was enough to convince him
Speaker 3: to dedicate his life to figuring out how and why
Speaker 3: they worked and if they could help people medically.
Speaker 4: So it's right around then that I know there's something
Speaker 4: in this field that I'm interested in. And I was
Speaker 4: just so excited reading these books about the incredible potential.
Speaker 4: And so this criticular night was about, you know, three
Speaker 4: four in the morning, my father had said, wake him up.
Speaker 4: Without fail I had called him up, welcome from a
Speaker 4: deep sleep, and no idea why I was calling him.
Speaker 4: We didn't make sure everything was okay, everything was fine,
Speaker 4: but that I figured out what I want to do
Speaker 4: with my life. He said, what's that. I want to
Speaker 4: study psychedelics. They're fascinating so much. We can learn about
Speaker 4: the brain, the mind brain interface, we can learn so
Speaker 4: much about mental illness, and there's these remarkable treatments that
Speaker 4: seemed to be helping people for whom standard conventional treatments
Speaker 4: are not helpful. So he was silent for a while,
Speaker 4: and then he said, well, you know, son, there may
Speaker 4: be something to what you say, but no one will
Speaker 4: listen to you unless you get your credentials, which meant
Speaker 4: I had to go back that I dropped out of
Speaker 4: school after my middle of my junior year. You know,
Speaker 4: I wanted to travel. I also had infactious mounted nucleosis,
Speaker 4: needed to rest up, and he wanted me to get
Speaker 4: back to school. He was very clever how he got
Speaker 4: me back to school, and years later he said, you know,
Speaker 4: maybe I should have been, but I was a little surprised.
Speaker 4: You stuck with that, that vision, that determination. So he
Speaker 4: kind of understood what I was trying to do.
Speaker 3: From one doctor grub to another.
Speaker 4: Yeah right, Yeah, he actually had one mushroom experience he
Speaker 4: did in Mexico. Heah very very you know, straight lace,
Speaker 4: you know, a big time doctor, and never had much
Speaker 4: interest in recreational substances or explorations with psychedelics. You know.
Speaker 4: He would drink alcohol at a social event and that
Speaker 4: was about it. But one day I told him I
Speaker 4: was going to go to a talk that evening given
Speaker 4: by a Mexican psychiatrist named Salvador Roquette. He's renowned for
Speaker 4: doing very unusual work with psychedelics, kind of sensory overload,
Speaker 4: with sometimes combinations of psychedelics, sometimes one high dose on
Speaker 4: its own. So I introduced my father to Raquet after
Speaker 4: the talk, and Riquette was talking about his operation in
Speaker 4: Mexico City. So my father said, oh, you know, just
Speaker 4: how happens. In a few weeks, I'm going to be
Speaker 4: in Mexico City giving a talk at the medical school.
Speaker 4: So Raquet said, oh, you must come and visit me.
Speaker 4: I wrote down his address, and I'm thinking there's no
Speaker 4: way he's going to go, especially because my mother was
Speaker 4: going with him and she's much more conservative than him.
Speaker 4: So they met with her. Caddie showed him around, told
Speaker 4: him what he did, and then he said, just so happens,
Speaker 4: we're having a group session tonight. Why don't the two
Speaker 4: of you join us?
Speaker 3: Sorry?
Speaker 4: And my mother right away said, oh, I could never
Speaker 4: do that.
Speaker 3: I have four children, really like she would be a
Speaker 3: bad influence.
Speaker 4: She would decompensate, couldn't care for her kids. And so
Speaker 4: my father, without missing a beat, says, oh what time.
Speaker 4: My mother was furious at him. He had to tell him,
Speaker 4: it's not going to do it. He was just talking
Speaker 4: through that and to prove it, because Raquett also said,
Speaker 4: if you're going to come, don't eat anything the rest
Speaker 4: of the day. So it proved to my mother that
Speaker 4: he was not going to go. They went out and
Speaker 4: had a big lunch after what he said, you know,
Speaker 4: I changed my mind again. I'm going, oh dear, oh dear,
Speaker 4: So he got my mother's furious when my father goes.
Speaker 4: So it's a group of about twenty people in a
Speaker 4: large room, sitting along and there's this very intense music,
Speaker 4: and simultaneously three videos are going one of beautiful, aesthetically
Speaker 4: pleasing scenes from nature, another of erotomania of anything you
Speaker 4: could imagine, and the third of documentary footage of warfare
Speaker 4: bodies in the street execution.
Speaker 3: So his doctor dad is tripping in a room with
Speaker 3: visuals of like a beautiful screensaver of nature, another of
Speaker 3: essentially vintage porn, and then another wall footage of an
Speaker 3: actual bloodbath. And I'm hoping that the attendance was free,
Speaker 3: because that sounds like a mixed bag. Oh, and all
Speaker 3: of this was on a heavy lunch of like spaghetti
Speaker 3: or beans or something just fucking kill me.
Speaker 4: And the music was just really intense, really driving, and
Speaker 4: the patients there were emoting very loudly, I'm sure, and
Speaker 4: my father started to feel really sick, so he made
Speaker 4: his way to the bathroom and wretched his guts out. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and then lapse and thought this was the end of him. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: one of the helpers saw he was missing from the spot,
Speaker 4: went into the bathroom, found him, dragged him back, propped
Speaker 4: him up against the wall, and then my father tells
Speaker 4: me he proceeded to have this incredible vision of a
Speaker 4: primitive desert road, people walking across the desert, one behind
Speaker 4: the other, connected from one to the other by their unbelikas.
Speaker 4: Oh he realized these were his ancestors. Oh wow, that
Speaker 4: was this very, very profound experience, and he got it.
Speaker 4: I think a great deal out of it. He changed
Speaker 4: in some funda better ways, Like I think he became
Speaker 4: less of a type a personality, more capable of enjoying himself.
Speaker 4: But he had a remarkable experience. Of course, my mother
Speaker 4: was furious, I was going to say when she to me, Oh,
Speaker 4: you should have seen how he looked. He looked terrible.
Speaker 3: And rookie mistake eating a big lunch.
Speaker 4: No, you never do that, But he was just that
Speaker 4: was their relationship to these crazy situations.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what a massively profound dreamer vision, Like all of
Speaker 3: your ancestors tethered by this life giving flesh rope leading
Speaker 3: right up to you, like the best version of a
Speaker 3: human centipede, and you have so so so many great
Speaker 3: grandparents you don't have a clue about. And if you
Speaker 3: have kids, and if you generations, your progeny might not
Speaker 3: even know your name or your face unless you make
Speaker 3: it into the history books or you get arrested or something.
Speaker 3: But tickle the brain with some chemistry and it flashes
Speaker 3: in front of you like a Willy Wanka tunnel, at
Speaker 3: least for doctor Grobe's dad, Doctor Grob Was this before
Speaker 3: or after you decided to study this?
Speaker 4: Oh? This was after this? That is why why did
Speaker 4: he doing it? I mean it could have been to
Speaker 4: connect with me. It could have been because he was curious.
Speaker 4: Who knows. You know, we talked about it a lot
Speaker 4: afterwards over the years, and you always kind of lit
Speaker 4: up when he would talk about it, get kind of animated.
Speaker 4: But he never was inclined to do it again.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: It's interesting because I have heard from so many people
Speaker 3: it's one of the most impactful experiences of their lives
Speaker 3: when done in a setting that is complimentary to what
Speaker 3: they need, and in books like journalist Michael Pollins's first
Speaker 3: person journey How to Change Your Mind and the Netflix
Speaker 3: series of The same name. I have heard that a
Speaker 3: well orchestrated, doctor approved trip like this is impactful on
Speaker 3: par with the birth of a child, which sounds like
Speaker 3: a little sketch. It sounds like a little bit of hype,
Speaker 3: but people swear by it. So what is happening chemically
Speaker 3: to make this big of an impression. So I've talked
Speaker 3: about molecular neurobiology with doctor Crystal Dilworth in the past
Speaker 3: about the role of neurotransmitters. Now, is a trip like
Speaker 3: a barge of fireworks exploding, but on a subcellular level.
Speaker 3: But is it serotonin? Is it dopamine?
Speaker 4: Well, it's with the classic psychedelics like psilocybin, LSD dimetholchip
Speaker 4: to mean, it's primarily the serotonergic system. The sub receptor
Speaker 4: is primarily the five HT two A or the serotonin
Speaker 4: two A receptor. It seems to get stimulated. They are
Speaker 4: a host of other sub receptors which probably have a
Speaker 4: role in this also, I mean there are other ways
Speaker 4: of looking at this. Robin Carhart Harris is now at
Speaker 4: UCSF as his default mode network theory, which is that
Speaker 4: the default mode network is tasked in central nervous system
Speaker 4: to hold it together and to ruminate on things, to
Speaker 4: be somewhat obsessive, somewhat negativistic. That kind of goes offline,
Speaker 4: and then a short time later there's a re equilibration
Speaker 4: process and the default mode network is far less active,
Speaker 4: and individuals have these very profound, spiritual opening experiences, very
Speaker 4: profound insight to their own psychodynamics, and they feel this
Speaker 4: is connected to what appears to be what's so interesting
Speaker 4: about these psychedelics not that they facilitate an antidepressant response.
Speaker 4: You know, ketamine does that also, And I'm not so
Speaker 4: wild they're academy in part because within a week, maybe two,
Speaker 4: you're back to baseline. But with's psilocybin or LSD or
Speaker 4: maybe ayahuasca with DMT. Not always, but it can be
Speaker 4: a sustained therapeutic effect that persists over time.
Speaker 3: And is that because when you're in that state, when
Speaker 3: you go through equilibrium again, your baseline default network is
Speaker 3: just a little bit less active.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Those networks in the brain kind of go offline
Speaker 4: for a brief period of time, allowing the system to
Speaker 4: re equiliborate. It's actually a very fancy, you know model mechanism.
Speaker 4: I find it an appealing, you know, psychobiological.
Speaker 3: Model just a quick overview. So there are a few
Speaker 3: types of hosynogens from a neurobiological standpoint. So first there
Speaker 3: are alkaloids like trip to meines which have similar chemical structures,
Speaker 3: and they include psilicide, which can convert to silicin once digested.
Speaker 3: And then there are the compounds of LSD and DMT,
Speaker 3: with DMT offering much shorter trip experience. And there are
Speaker 3: also compounds called phenethylamines like mescaline which occurs in the
Speaker 3: cactus peyote and MDMA is sometimes called the hallucinogen, but
Speaker 3: others argue that it's actually an empathogen which aids in
Speaker 3: social connectedness. Now Ketamine, which is being explored for treatment
Speaker 3: resistant depression, is called more of a dissociative anesthetic. Now.
Speaker 3: Ayahuasca is a South American indigenous medicine and it's composed
Speaker 3: of several different plant compounds and some deliver what's called
Speaker 3: monoamine oxidase inhibitors, meaning that they prevent the brain from
Speaker 3: sweeping away amounts of dopamine and serotonin and norepernephrine from
Speaker 3: the synapses. That also means that the amount of neurotransmitters
Speaker 3: in the gut can be affected, which can lead to
Speaker 3: that kind of sacred act of purging, which is just
Speaker 3: fire hosting your problems out at both ends your body,
Speaker 3: respectfully speaking. Now, the second punch of ayahuasca is also DMT,
Speaker 3: which occurs naturally in plants and in our brains in
Speaker 3: very small amounts. Unless you know you've just sipped some
Speaker 3: ayahuasca tea where your entire digestive and central nervous system
Speaker 3: becomes kind of a funhouse water slide of dreams and nightmares.
Speaker 3: And you know, it's interesting too that you worked in
Speaker 3: a dream research center. Is there anything correlating between dreaming
Speaker 3: and hallucinating?
Speaker 4: What'sing like that? Yeah? Yeah, if you talk to some
Speaker 4: people who and this is particularly the case I think
Speaker 4: with plant hallucinogens, plant psychedelics, that they will talk about
Speaker 4: having a very introspective experience, came to a waking dream. Yes,
Speaker 4: they knew where they were, they knew what was going on,
Speaker 4: they knew why they were there, they knew they were altered.
Speaker 4: But they're in a reverie. They're having a vision, a
Speaker 4: story is playing out, and there can be dialogue, there
Speaker 4: can be purpose.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So in our Onnurology episode about dreaming, doctor
Speaker 3: William Domhoff explained that neuroimaging research reveals hypnosis is not
Speaker 3: like psychedelics or hallucinogens or like dreaming, and that every
Speaker 3: one of those states has a different network supporting it,
Speaker 3: and the dreaming network is different from all of those
Speaker 3: altered states of consciousness networks. And as this twenty seventeen
Speaker 3: Journal of Current Neuropharmacology paper titled Dreams and Psychedelics Neurophenomenological
Speaker 3: Comparison and Therapeutic Implications explains, so psychedelic states are closest
Speaker 3: to lucid dreaming, which is characterized by this mixed state
Speaker 3: of dreaming and waking consciousness and has the potential for
Speaker 3: long term beneficial effects on psychosocial functioning and wellbeing. So
Speaker 3: tripping is not really dreaming, although some hallucinogens can also
Speaker 3: promote vivid dreams, meaning that they're in a neuragen and
Speaker 3: one of those substances is a Central African rainforest shrub
Speaker 3: called iboca.
Speaker 4: You know, that's like in West Africa there they talk
Speaker 4: about you. No, you feed the initiate eboca until they
Speaker 4: have a vision of an ancestor, often in the form
Speaker 4: of this waking dream, or they die of a cardiovascular
Speaker 4: collapse which hy or they are very serious about their sacraments.
Speaker 4: They don't mess around. And that's true. And also it's
Speaker 4: true that I began has some cardiac risks, and there
Speaker 4: have been some unfortunate fatalities, not in this country, overseas,
Speaker 4: you know, where an individual's significant history for cardiovascular disease
Speaker 4: was not properly recognized or taken into account.
Speaker 3: So it's like before you run a marathon, check with
Speaker 3: a doctor before you do evoca, maybe.
Speaker 4: Saying you should not that the doctor will know what
Speaker 4: you're talking about, but he needs to take an ekgen
Speaker 4: see if you have a Probably the people who ran
Speaker 4: into trouble had late in the arrhythmias that they may
Speaker 4: not even have been aware of. A lot of people
Speaker 4: don't know. If they haven't a rhythm, their chest may
Speaker 4: go through funny flutters and flips and turns, but you
Speaker 4: tune that out. A lot of people tune that out.
Speaker 4: Then they don't want to talk to the doctor about
Speaker 4: something that could be serious.
Speaker 3: Right, No, it's a real bummer, it is. So, Yes,
Speaker 3: we need a cardiology episode coming up. I'm on it. Also, yes,
Speaker 3: if you're going to toss any drugs into your system
Speaker 3: or stop doing any that have been prescribed. Please please
Speaker 3: talk to your doctor and be frank with them. They
Speaker 3: have absolutely heard weirder questions. You can see our radiology
Speaker 3: episode for things found up butts. But if you died
Speaker 3: from shyness or ignorance, they would be HELLI sad. So
Speaker 3: talk to your doctors.
Speaker 4: You would need people to be absolutely direct and revealing.
Speaker 4: I know the case is sad. Case a seventy four
Speaker 4: year old man in the Northwest who had never taken
Speaker 4: a psychedelic but read the Michael Pollin book and felt okay,
Speaker 4: he was ready. This was his time. He arranged for
Speaker 4: an underground therapist who had a good reputation. He met
Speaker 4: with him a couple of times, and the guy came
Speaker 4: over to do the session and he took a moderate
Speaker 4: to high dose and within an hour he had died
Speaker 4: of a cardiac arrest. The doctor said there was no
Speaker 4: history of cardiac disease, but he had never checked him
Speaker 4: for cardiac disease. The guy had never complained. He probably
Speaker 4: rarely went in to see the doctor.
Speaker 3: Is this eboca or that was mushrooms? That wasoms? Really?
Speaker 4: So you can get cardiac issues with mushrooms and vulnerable people.
Speaker 4: So here we're planning a new study that will include
Speaker 4: people we in the past have screened out, like people
Speaker 4: with cardiac history, older people. We always had an upper
Speaker 4: age limit of sixty sixty five, maybe seventy, but not
Speaker 4: to go over because we were always concerned that, you know,
Speaker 4: adverse outcome could cause our study to shut down and
Speaker 4: other studies to shut down.
Speaker 3: So to be on the safe side, there was an
Speaker 3: upper age cap because just one tragic study can really
Speaker 3: hinder research across the whole field globally. But that is
Speaker 3: changing as more people toward end of life are willing
Speaker 3: to take that risk. Maybe just because they're boomers and
Speaker 3: they tripped when they were younger. Who knows. Also there
Speaker 3: are more medical safety nets available, doctor Grob says.
Speaker 4: But now, because we're looking at a pragmatic model, what
Speaker 4: are the real life implications going to be? We need
Speaker 4: data on people with cardiac vulnerabilities. You know, we'll have
Speaker 4: a crash card there, you know, to resuscitate people. We'll
Speaker 4: have people trained in CPR ready to dive in and
Speaker 4: hopefully nothing will happen. But we need to collect this
Speaker 4: data that really hasn't been done. I collected some data
Speaker 4: in both my psilocybin treatment of advanced cancer anxiety study,
Speaker 4: and I also collected data in our ayahuasca study in
Speaker 4: Brazil years ago, but we never published the Brazilian data
Speaker 4: because it was summer. It was incredibly hot and humid,
Speaker 4: and my primary collaborator took the EKG sheets. They just
Speaker 4: tossed them in a desk drawer. When he went back
Speaker 4: to retrieve them at the end of the summer, they
Speaker 4: you know, the the ink had kind of dissolved.
Speaker 3: Oh no, nmath. Well, I'm curious too because you mentioned
Speaker 3: ayahuasca as well, because I know we're talking about mushrooms,
Speaker 3: but when it comes to like ayahuasca, mescaline, psilocybin, even
Speaker 3: LSD like structurally, are the really big differences or are
Speaker 3: they kind of working in the same pathway?
Speaker 4: They look chemically, some of them look similar. They don't
Speaker 4: have an indole ring, which is a kind of a
Speaker 4: five sided ring with a nitrogen atom in there. That's
Speaker 4: pretty commonplace for the trip to means.
Speaker 3: And a trip to mean, remember, is an alkaloid found
Speaker 3: in many plants and even in humans, and the common
Speaker 3: feature is this chemical structure called an indul ring, which diagrammatically,
Speaker 3: if you look at a drawing of it, it looks
Speaker 3: like if you glued the big dipper and the little
Speaker 3: dipper together at the ladles. So that's the base structure,
Speaker 3: and then little tweaks in additions give you other compounds
Speaker 3: like serotonin or melatonin or DMT or psilocybin. So one
Speaker 3: little extra chemical do Hicki here or there, and you
Speaker 3: have a different neuromodulator that changes brain activity.
Speaker 4: So there are similarities. In fact, there's similarity to the
Speaker 4: essential neurotransmitter serotonin. Serotonin is five hydroxy trip to me.
Speaker 4: Psilocybin is four phosphorloxi and then dimethyl trip to me,
Speaker 4: so it's only adding a phosphorloxi molecule or silicin and
Speaker 4: then dimethyl trip to me. You flip the five hydroxy
Speaker 4: over to the four position and suddenly you've got a
Speaker 4: psychedelic Silicin isn't used generally in treatment because it's very
Speaker 4: short acting, but people interest and also there's now a
Speaker 4: run for profiteering where people haven't really looked at cilicen
Speaker 4: so they can get a patent. That's a problem in
Speaker 4: the field is that the big moneyed interests are circling
Speaker 4: the wagons. You know, they're ready to attack and get
Speaker 4: milk whatever they can get out of this.
Speaker 3: So yes, psilocybin can be synthesized and in lab trials,
Speaker 3: volunteers are not choking down dried mushrooms and hoping that
Speaker 3: there's a standard ised dosage. They're really carefully controlled weights
Speaker 3: and delivered in pill form.
Speaker 4: So mushrooms, you look at different mushroom species, you look
Speaker 4: at what percent concentration psilocybin, what percent concentration silicin. There's
Speaker 4: another alkaloid called beocysteine, which no one has ever looked at,
Speaker 4: as far as I'm aware, that would be interesting. They
Speaker 4: really want to do some novel research look at beosysteine.
Speaker 4: Mushrooms at beosysteine are different, fundamentally different than psilocybin cubensus,
Speaker 4: which has primarily psilocybin with the BeO cystine, like I
Speaker 4: think as essence or sign up, since I think there's
Speaker 4: greater focus, greater acuity of thought, and maybe less carried
Speaker 4: away by vision and reverie. That's been my observation, but
Speaker 4: no one has formally looked at that that's all anecdotal stuff. See,
Speaker 4: mushrooms vary in their potency depending on where they grew,
Speaker 4: when they were picked, what the climactic conditions were, what
Speaker 4: time of the day or night. Oh, so you want
Speaker 4: to get the equivalent of one to two or one
Speaker 4: to three milligrams of equivalent synthetic psilocybin.
Speaker 3: So in clinical settings like the twenty twenty three study
Speaker 3: titled Single Dose Psilocybin Treatment for Major Depressive Disorder, a
Speaker 3: twenty five milligram dose of synthetic psilocybin was administered once
Speaker 3: in this specific setting, which we're going to get to
Speaker 3: it a bit, and the study found that psilocybin treatment
Speaker 3: was associated with a clinically significant sustained reduction in depressive
Speaker 3: symptoms and functional disability without any adverse effects. So those
Speaker 3: findings add to this evidence that psilocybin, when administered with
Speaker 3: psychological support can hold promise, as they say, a novel
Speaker 3: intervention for major depressive disorder. But of course in these
Speaker 3: trials they're screening out folks who might be at risk
Speaker 3: for complications physically or a subsequent psychosis that could last
Speaker 3: for months. Now, when it comes to dried mushroom amounts,
Speaker 3: A pretty big whopper of a trip might be around
Speaker 3: three grams, five grams and beyond is considered what's called
Speaker 3: a heroic dose. Now on the tiny end of the
Speaker 3: scale is microdosing, which is a regiment of a few
Speaker 3: times a week at zero point one two point three grams,
Speaker 3: like a tenth of a trip. But can your brain
Speaker 3: have this imperceptible brush with mushrooms, like on a Tuesday
Speaker 3: at work and still see benefits?
Speaker 4: Now there's this whole controversy over microdosing. Yeah, and it
Speaker 4: was very exciting to hear about these reports at first,
Speaker 4: and the anecdotal reports look very good. But as of yet,
Speaker 4: there's no rigorously controlled, methodologically sound study that demonstrates that
Speaker 4: microdosing is any better than a placebo. So I think
Speaker 4: the case is still out. It's not been resolved. It's
Speaker 4: a tough model to administer. I looked into it years ago,
Speaker 4: and you've got to administer it under supervision in a
Speaker 4: research setting. And then I've always believed the FDA would
Speaker 4: insist they have to stay there all day and that's
Speaker 4: you know, eight to twelve hours, yeah, you know, and
Speaker 4: it's hard to recruit people just to sit around on
Speaker 4: a microdose. But that's what it would take. I mean,
Speaker 4: some people are coming up with models where you give
Speaker 4: the patient the microdose, tell them to take it home,
Speaker 4: tell them to take it at a certain time, maybe
Speaker 4: they turn on a zoom or another video, but that
Speaker 4: there are too many ways where that can go off
Speaker 4: the rails.
Speaker 3: I think, why can't we figure out if microdosing has benefits?
Speaker 3: So anecdotally some people say it's been extremely helpful for them,
Speaker 3: just asking so many people I know who are a
Speaker 3: little bit bummed out and looking for answers. But as
Speaker 3: we know from research into antidepressants, the placebo effect tends
Speaker 3: to be as powerful as the administered pharmaceutical, because hope
Speaker 3: is one hell of a drug, but on the upper
Speaker 3: end of the microdosing spectrum, like three milligrams of psilocybin
Speaker 3: instead of that big twenty five milligrams given for big trips,
Speaker 3: or like a half a gram of dried mushrooms zero
Speaker 3: point five grams. One study showed those larger microdoses giving light,
Speaker 3: kind of buzzy perceptible effects were more beneficial to overall
Speaker 3: mood and well being than a placebo. But what about
Speaker 3: the big big, big doses. Who does that? And what
Speaker 3: about the studies about the larger doses and those kind
Speaker 3: of transformative experiences like the one the end of life
Speaker 3: ones that you've done.
Speaker 4: Like, well, I didn't use a heroic dose. Terrence McKenna
Speaker 4: would say, He would say, use a heroic dose in
Speaker 4: the dark and on the floor.
Speaker 3: How big is a heroic dose of mushrooms?
Speaker 4: What like forwards?
Speaker 3: Okay, that's a lot, that's a lot.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 4: I asked Dennis, who's my good friend, his brother, who
Speaker 4: is my collaborator on the ayahuasca site. So I've known
Speaker 4: one of my best friends, and he said Terrence never
Speaker 4: did that. He talked it up, but he was too
Speaker 4: smart to do that himself. So beware. Some people say
Speaker 4: beware the underdose. I'll say, beware going over the top
Speaker 4: and dosing too high. Yeah, above all, we want to
Speaker 4: preserve safety because this won't go forward as a field
Speaker 4: or get any kind of legal sanction unless strong consistent
Speaker 4: safety parameters alreadhered to.
Speaker 3: So yeah, big trip studies like doctor Grobs use twenty
Speaker 3: five milligrams of straight psilocybin, which, according to this twenty
Speaker 3: twenty two paper the Therapeutic Use of psilocybin practical considerations
Speaker 3: for dosing an administration. There's an assumed one percent of
Speaker 3: psilocybin per one gram of dried mushrooms, so a twenty
Speaker 3: five milligram straight psilocybrin would be about two point five
Speaker 3: grams of mushrooms. And several studies indicate that this type
Speaker 3: of therapy is most effective for, say, cancer related depression
Speaker 3: and anxiety, or treatment resistant depression, or alcohol use disorder
Speaker 3: tobacco addiction. But do not expect your doctor to just
Speaker 3: scrawl out like shrooms on a notepad and send you
Speaker 3: on your way. And can you tell me a little
Speaker 3: bit about the history of the legality of it. I
Speaker 3: understand that like in the fifties, the government was all
Speaker 3: about it, and then some stuff went down with LSD
Speaker 3: research and then it was just like verbote, no one
Speaker 3: talking about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what went down? Tim Leary and all the publicity.
Speaker 4: He loved getting attention, He loved the notoriety.
Speaker 5: His involvement with the mind expanding drug LSD has resulted
Speaker 5: in his being praised by a faithful minority and damned
Speaker 5: by an irate majority. A man very much in the news.
Speaker 5: Here is doctor Timothy Leary.
Speaker 4: Drugs even like alcohol. Their instruments which expand consciousness.
Speaker 3: They speed up the mind, turn on, tune in, and
Speaker 3: rob out.
Speaker 4: He paid a price. He had kind of a tragic life,
Speaker 4: you know. He spent years maximum security prison. He was
Speaker 4: a wrestled in Algeria by Eldridge Clever or crazy wild story,
Speaker 4: arrested again in Switzerland. I got to know at the
Speaker 4: end of his life to those good friends with his
Speaker 4: old student Ralph Metzner. So I would drive Ralph over
Speaker 4: there when Ralph came into town to see tim. He's
Speaker 4: a remarkable guy, brilliant, but he paid a price.
Speaker 3: Doctor Group says. Both Leary's wife and daughter died by suicide,
Speaker 3: and Ralph Metzner was one of Timothy O'Leary's research partners
Speaker 3: in Harvard, alongside this spiritual in yoga guru and a
Speaker 3: psychologist named Ramdas who I just found out today. Ramdas
Speaker 3: was born Richard Albert. He's a white guy from Massachusetts.
Speaker 3: I had no idea, but anyway, before.
Speaker 4: That, LSD was first discovered nineteen forty three April nineteenth,
Speaker 4: nineteen forty three by Albert Hoffman. It was a fluke
Speaker 4: serendipitous unintentional phenomena where what's believed to have been the
Speaker 4: case is that Hoffman had a cut on his hand.
Speaker 4: He was using a very low dose, but he absorbed
Speaker 4: some through the cut, and there must have been a
Speaker 4: cut in the glovey he had on as well, because
Speaker 4: he was pretty fastidious about conditions.
Speaker 3: So he was working for a pharma company and at
Speaker 3: the time he was studying the medicinal uses of a
Speaker 3: plant called a sea onion or a maritime.
Speaker 4: Squil, and it was the absorbent of preachable amount. I
Speaker 4: felt like he was He didn't feel it ill. He
Speaker 4: felt he was losing sets of balances orienta, and so
Speaker 4: he got back home slept it off. Then a few
Speaker 4: days later, actually the first one was in April sixteenth,
Speaker 4: the second one April nineteenth. That was the first intentional
Speaker 4: LSD experience. He measured out an exceedingly small amount because
Speaker 4: he was going to start extremely low dose and then gradually,
Speaker 4: over some days or weeks, work up the dose. And
Speaker 4: he was testing on himself, which is an old modeling, yeah,
Speaker 4: photo experimentation, So he self administered two one hundred and
Speaker 4: fifty micrograms, which is a high dose.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I say, I don't know a lot about LSD,
Speaker 3: but I know.
Speaker 4: That's a lot. It's not today's recreational dos with recreational dose.
Speaker 4: When I was in college, we would take very high dosages.
Speaker 3: I have never done LSD, and frankly, I would be
Speaker 3: terrified to just buy it off some jabbroni. But according
Speaker 3: to the twenty twenty study acute dose dependent effect of
Speaker 3: lysergic acid diethylamide in a double blind, placebo controlled study
Speaker 3: and healthy subjects, people start feeling effects at twenty five
Speaker 3: micrograms of LSD, and a ceiling effect was observed for
Speaker 3: good drug effects at one hundred micrograms. Now at two
Speaker 3: hundred micrograms, you're talking further ego dissolution and anxiety and
Speaker 3: a trip that could last the better part of a
Speaker 3: whole day. Now, that day, Albert Hoffman took two hundred
Speaker 3: and fifty micrograms.
Speaker 4: So then Hoffman again felt ill. He felt they needed
Speaker 4: to get home, so he was a lab assistant. He
Speaker 4: got on his bicycle, which the famous bicycle ride, which
Speaker 4: took forever. It took him forever to get home. He
Speaker 4: gets home, he takes tho his bed. He tells his
Speaker 4: wife that he's dying. He had been injured in an
Speaker 4: experiment and to call the doctor. So she was very concerned.
Speaker 4: She did what he said, She called the doctor. By
Speaker 4: the time the doctor got to house, he was having
Speaker 4: a fantastic experience. So this is extraordinary. You know. He
Speaker 4: was watching objects morphed into other objects with ice closed.
Speaker 4: He would have these visions, often of nature, natural settings. Forrov.
Speaker 4: He just had a amazing time. Thought there's something to this.
Speaker 4: He spoke with his colleagues at Sandoz pharmaceutical and Basel, Switzerland,
Speaker 4: and they started manufacturing it and sending out samples to
Speaker 4: some of the leading psychiatrists around the world, mostly in
Speaker 4: Europe and North America. And this was in the early fifties.
Speaker 4: There was a great deal of excitement. The psychedelics were
Speaker 4: the cutting edge of psychiatric research, and there was an
Speaker 4: enthusiasm in Europe, enthusiasm in the US. There's a lot
Speaker 4: of work going on in Canada.
Speaker 3: So everyone got excited about this. And then the Department
Speaker 3: of Defense popped its head up like a merrkat being
Speaker 3: like what y'all doing? Because remember the Second World War
Speaker 3: had just wrapped up and nuclear weapons had entered the scene,
Speaker 3: mechanized death was a big business, and it still is so.
Speaker 3: In the early nineteen fifties, the bureaus of military defense
Speaker 3: like the CIA and the FBI were like, oh, hey, I.
Speaker 4: Thought it might be valuable in helping their agents resist
Speaker 4: brainwashing and interrogation, but also making it more likely that
Speaker 4: an enemy agent who is captured will spill up their secrets. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So it's called the mk Ultra program, and it was
Speaker 4: done under very unethical conditions. Sometimes they would just dose
Speaker 4: random people without their knowledge.
Speaker 3: Oh dear, so doctor grow or Charlie says that in
Speaker 3: San Francisco, the mk Ultra project had an apartment with
Speaker 3: a one way mirror where they would enlist sex workers
Speaker 3: to bring back regular unsuspecting clients and dose them with LSD.
Speaker 3: And I found a news release stating the Director of
Speaker 3: Central Intelligence appeared today in San Francisco and he asked
Speaker 3: the city's forgiveness for that spy agency's operation of a
Speaker 3: bodyhouse at twenty two to fifty Chestnut Street during the
Speaker 3: mid fifties. That was a press release. First off, a
Speaker 3: body house, that's a word. Secondly, the CIA called this program,
Speaker 3: I'm not kidding, Operation Midnight climax, which is so cheesy.
Speaker 3: It's so cheesy. Now, where did I find all of
Speaker 3: this information in this news release? Via the website CIA
Speaker 3: dot gov. Okay, now, also, I had to know right
Speaker 3: now what stands at twenty two to fifty Chestnut Street.
Speaker 3: Now that it's not an acid house, government run brothel,
Speaker 3: by the grace of God, it is now a restaurant
Speaker 3: called Tacolicious. And I checked their menu and unfortunately they
Speaker 3: do not serve Michelo ultra. But back in the day,
Speaker 3: a nightcap could be spiked as hell and you wouldn't
Speaker 3: even know it.
Speaker 4: So these guys had no idea what was going on.
Speaker 4: There's also another case a military scientist who was active
Speaker 4: in the biological warfare program who had gone to Europe
Speaker 4: and had seen some very unethical and very dangerous behaviors
Speaker 4: by his colleagues, and back in the US and Maryland,
Speaker 4: his colleagues dosed him at at a kind of a
Speaker 4: clandestine meeting. He flipped out. They took him to New York,
Speaker 4: put him in a hotel room with an agent to
Speaker 4: keep an eye on him, took him to a military
Speaker 4: intelligence psychiatrist who was trying to make sense of what
Speaker 4: was going on, and they were concerned that this guy
Speaker 4: was going to spill the beans and blow their cover.
Speaker 4: So what happened to him, and this was not revealed
Speaker 4: until the seventies, and only because his family wouldn't allow
Speaker 4: it to be swept under the rug. This is early fifties.
Speaker 4: He jumped to his death from a twentieth floor of
Speaker 4: the nineteenth floor. Yeah, and intelligence didn't come clean about
Speaker 4: what had happened until the Church Committee in the late seventies,
Speaker 4: which was investigating MK Ultra and other questionably ethical, questionable
Speaker 4: legal activities of the Intelligence service. So that was going on.
Speaker 4: The military was really playing it loose with safety and ethics,
Speaker 4: sadly enough.
Speaker 3: And one research team via the nonprofit Shakruna Institute for
Speaker 3: Psychedelic Plant Medicine, dug into nearly fifty studies in this
Speaker 3: era and found that test subjects were often incarcerated people
Speaker 3: and those in mental hospitals, administered very high doses of
Speaker 3: psychedelics for long periods of time, and people of color
Speaker 3: were also routinely exploited and subjected to what the paper
Speaker 3: even called brutal experimentation, saying that black participants were given
Speaker 3: more than double the dose at one hundred and eighty
Speaker 3: micrograms of LSD compared to white participants who got seventy five,
Speaker 3: and white participants endured eight days of LSD administration, while
Speaker 3: black participants endured chronic LSD administration for up to eighty
Speaker 3: five days. Now, as for Frank Olsen, that scientist who
Speaker 3: was dosed well, according to the book Prisoner in Chief,
Speaker 3: Sydney Gotlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control, Sydney
Speaker 3: was his boss. Olsen had formerly been in charge of
Speaker 3: the airborne distribution of biological germs. So Olsen was a
Speaker 3: guy who was able to disguise cans of shaving cream
Speaker 3: and bug spray to hold lethal toxins. He even designed
Speaker 3: a lipstick case that could kill on skin contact. But
Speaker 3: after his acid trip, it said that he realized that
Speaker 3: the experiments were not ethical and he wanted to leave
Speaker 3: the research. As for his suicide from the nineteenth floor,
Speaker 3: decades after his death, his family had been fighting this,
Speaker 3: had had gone to Washington and gotten a settlement for
Speaker 3: his wrongful death. But then in nineteen ninety four, his
Speaker 3: son Eric had his body exhumed and found that the
Speaker 3: blunt force trauma to his head wasn't consistent with his
Speaker 3: other fall injuries on his back. So in short, this
Speaker 3: shit was shady, and so we saw a decline in funding.
Speaker 4: Well research was going through in the fifties, although in
Speaker 4: retrospect it turned out a number of these studies were
Speaker 4: funded by fronts for the CIA or fronts for military intelligence. Wow,
Speaker 4: so that was happening. But then also in I think
Speaker 4: it was a summer of nineteen sixty, a relatively young
Speaker 4: instructor of psychology at Harvard took vacation in Couernavaca, Mexico,
Speaker 4: and a friend of his, a colleague, he went and
Speaker 4: visited Maria Sabina, because in nineteen fifty seven there had
Speaker 4: been a Life magazine article of ar Gordon Wasson's adventures
Speaker 4: going into the highlands of central Mexico discovering a native
Speaker 4: healer who used mushrooms in her healing practice.
Speaker 3: So this was Maria Sabina, a Sabia or a wise
Speaker 3: woman from the Wahawkan area of southern Mexico who came
Speaker 3: from generations of Shamans who used psilocyeby mushrooms to heal
Speaker 3: the sick and to help people have visions of things
Speaker 3: that they lost.
Speaker 4: So R.
Speaker 3: Gordon Wawlson, a guy who just loved mushrooms and worked
Speaker 3: as a banker, lies and tells Maria that he's looking
Speaker 3: for his lost son.
Speaker 4: She introduced him to the mushrooms. He swore up and
Speaker 4: down he would never revail it to the outside world,
Speaker 4: and of course he blew the lid off this by
Speaker 4: publishing his accounts in Life magazine.
Speaker 3: Oh man.
Speaker 4: So, after Leary got into this, he did some really
Speaker 4: good work. He had some really fine papers, but he
Speaker 4: had an unfailing need to call in attention off the
Speaker 4: negative attention, and he was just freaking people out. He
Speaker 4: was told by one of the deans at Harvard that
Speaker 4: he could continue with his psychedelic research so long as
Speaker 4: he didn't recruit undergraduates to study. He could recruit graduate students,
Speaker 4: but not undergraduate students. Tim Leary never met a rule
Speaker 4: he didn't feel he had to break. He brought in
Speaker 4: some undergrads, and before you know it, they were kicked
Speaker 4: out of Harvard. Bye.
Speaker 3: So when it came to you studying this, how much
Speaker 3: did you want to dive into the ethnobodany of it
Speaker 3: and the indigenous uses of it?
Speaker 4: Oh? Well, I'm fascinated with that. I did some writing
Speaker 4: with Marlene doctor Derius, who was an anthropologist. She was
Speaker 4: a scholar in this area, gifted writer, and she wanted
Speaker 4: to co write with a psychiatrist, and she figured I
Speaker 4: was the one. So we wrote a lot together. You know,
Speaker 4: I spent some time in Brazil. I made a number
Speaker 4: of trips down to Brazil. We did, you know, several
Speaker 4: fairly substantial studies, and we worked with people who are
Speaker 4: members of a syncratic church which has permission from the
Speaker 4: government to use yahuasca as a sacrament in their ceremonies.
Speaker 4: We didn't do any research with actual indigenous people, but
Speaker 4: I learned as much as I could as long as
Speaker 4: I was down there and heard some good stories and
Speaker 4: have a great deal of respect for the indigenous traditions
Speaker 4: from which we This is why we're talking about psychedelics today,
Speaker 4: because the of the indigenous people from centuries ago made
Speaker 4: a collective decision not to give up their use of
Speaker 4: in theogenic plants, but rather to hide them from the conquistadors.
Speaker 4: From the invading conquering Europeans, particularly the Spaniards and the
Speaker 4: Portuguese in South America and Central America and actually, I
Speaker 4: think that there's a lot of focus these days on
Speaker 4: monetizing psychedelic work. I really think there needs to be
Speaker 4: a provision in all this that some of the proceeds
Speaker 4: need to be directed towards the descendants, who are often
Speaker 4: the most marginalized and mistreated and impoverished people in the world,
Speaker 4: whose environments we have destroyed, as cultures we have destroyed.
Speaker 4: But they kept that knowledge secret from the Spaniards and
Speaker 4: the Catholic friars and held.
Speaker 3: It until some American guy I came there, lied, took
Speaker 3: advantage of a healer, didn't protect our identity, published, everything
Speaker 3: turned a profit and then went on to be funded
Speaker 3: by MC ultra. So people start getting word of this,
Speaker 3: and after everyone from John Lennon to Bob Dylan and
Speaker 3: Mick Jagger and CIA operatives flocked to her village, Maria
Speaker 3: Savino was driven from it and later died in poverty.
Speaker 3: And A recent paper titled Ethical Principles of Traditional Indigenous
Speaker 3: Medicine to Guide Western Psychedelic research and Practice starts with
Speaker 3: acknowledging that Indigenous people's voices in leadership have been notably
Speaker 3: absent from Western psychedelic research and psychedelic assistant therapy spaces,
Speaker 3: with the field currently being widely represented by Western peoples,
Speaker 3: and when Indigenous voices have been engaged, their presence has
Speaker 3: often been more symbolic with little distributed benefit going back
Speaker 3: to their communities. And the lead author of that paper
Speaker 3: is Jeria Seladwin, who was born into this family of
Speaker 3: indigenous mystics and healers and poets in Mexico and is
Speaker 3: a UC Berkeley Othering and Belonging Institute Senior Fellow, And
Speaker 3: she points out that Western psychedelics or recreational mind manifesting
Speaker 3: isn't treated as a sacred act and that these medicines
Speaker 3: are not about the human mind alone. They reveal spirit,
Speaker 3: the very animating principle of life, she writes, and that
Speaker 3: paper urges researchers to consider the eight elements of reverence, respect, responsibility, relevance, regulation, reparation, restoration,
Speaker 3: and reconciliation in trials and practice. And now here we are,
Speaker 3: and here I am a white lady talking about taking
Speaker 3: indigenous psychedelics because I wanted to Maricondo minurosis. And after
Speaker 3: a quick break, we'll be back with some of the
Speaker 3: protocol that's used in clinical settings and what people who
Speaker 3: do this under doctor or healer supervision are told to do.
Speaker 3: But first we're going to take a quick break from
Speaker 3: sponsors to the show who make it possible for us
Speaker 3: to donate to a cause and consistent with doctor grobs
Speaker 3: wishes to acknowledge indigenous practice, it's going to go to
Speaker 3: the Chakruna Institute for Psychedelic Plant Medicines, which is a
Speaker 3: nonprofit run by a small staff of experts and enthusiastic
Speaker 3: volunteers who work to bring education and cultural understanding about
Speaker 3: psychedelic plant medicines to a wider audience. And I quoted
Speaker 3: some of their work earlier, and they pioneer initiatives that
Speaker 3: support and provide a platform for diverse voices, including women,
Speaker 3: queer people, people of color, indigenous people, and the global South.
Speaker 3: So that is chakruna dot net which will be linked
Speaker 3: in the show notes, so odination will go to them.
Speaker 3: Things to sponsors to the show.
Speaker 1: McDonald's wraps all flavor, no mess, no drips on your
Speaker 1: drip or grease on your shirts, no crumbs on your
Speaker 1: keyboard or sauce on your doshboard. Just all the flavor
Speaker 1: of sweet chili, chicken, barbecue, and bacon chicken and new
Speaker 1: Tika Chicken wrapped up nice served after eleven a m
Speaker 1: teaka Chicken rap available until thirteenth July twenty six. Fees
Speaker 1: applied to delivery orders subject to availability.
Speaker 2: Love MNS quality and value you can trust. At MNS
Speaker 2: you can update your home, your wardrobe and theirs with
Speaker 2: quality you can count on. There's the ultimate twelve euro
Speaker 2: les bras, the softest ever kid sweats from six euro fifty,
Speaker 2: luxurious Egyptian cotton towels from eight euro twenty five, and
Speaker 2: so much more value you can trust only at MNS,
Speaker 2: shop in store or at Marks and Spencer dot I.
Speaker 2: Of course, our supermarket has a cheesemonger, Our cells the
Speaker 2: milk of nineteen different mammals.
Speaker 4: What does yours of an entire aisle dedicated to venison.
Speaker 3: Feel my curtains? Guess where they're from. Our supermarket has
Speaker 3: a granola launch. Ours has a sorbe Chage, Molly and
Speaker 3: sult library. We're having our honeymoon and ours.
Speaker 2: Have another feel of my curtains.
Speaker 4: Oh, has your supermarket got notions?
Speaker 3: If so, switch to Aldi, where you'll get all the
Speaker 3: quality with none of the.
Speaker 2: Madness the prices you'll love aldi.
Speaker 3: It's not complicated. Okay, So next week we wants while
Speaker 3: your questions and please trust there are great ones. But
Speaker 3: let's continue on with how does a clinical neuropsychiatrist administer
Speaker 3: psilocybin to WILL participants? And what does that feel like?
Speaker 3: Can you describe for anyone who's never done mushrooms what
Speaker 3: it is like for people experiencing it. I myself have
Speaker 3: taken like three point five grams and just like put
Speaker 3: on a mask. I use the Yale protocol and like
Speaker 3: Imperial College of London. This is the suggestion of my
Speaker 3: own psychiatrist, who was like, I think this would be good,
Speaker 3: and he's like a buttoned up Beverly Hills dude. It's
Speaker 3: just like, you know, I think that this is something
Speaker 3: you should consider. So so I did all this, you know,
Speaker 3: and wrote out my intentions ahead of time, like all
Speaker 3: that stuff.
Speaker 4: But well, three point five grams of it's a normal potency.
Speaker 4: It should be a nice doves. Yeah, it won't spin
Speaker 4: you out into the hemisphere, but you all have a good,
Speaker 4: good experience.
Speaker 3: Oh, I talked to so many dead people. It was wild,
Speaker 3: and it was before I did it, I was skeptical
Speaker 3: that it would be that big of a memory for me,
Speaker 3: or that big of an experience in my life, and
Speaker 3: it was completely transformative. Everything feels like before and after that,
Speaker 3: And I have that as a benchmark of like what
Speaker 3: my optimal living experience could be, of like how I
Speaker 3: can look at the world through that window. And you know,
Speaker 3: I've talked to friends who have tried micro dosing, or
Speaker 3: who have tried mushroom gummies here or there, or who
Speaker 3: have tripped at Coachella and it was weird. And so
Speaker 3: I have friends who have asked me, like, what that's like.
Speaker 3: But I know everyone has their own experience. But when
Speaker 3: you are prepping people for this, how do you describe it?
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I'm always wary about recreational settings. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: things can go wrong, things do go wrong. Yeah, But
Speaker 4: when you've got a formal setting, you know, first of all,
Speaker 4: you need to meet the facilitator. He or she needs
Speaker 4: to kind of do a screening to make sure you
Speaker 4: don't have any conditions which would screen you out, and
Speaker 4: then he or she will describe the range of experience
Speaker 4: and also get to know more about your background. Very
Speaker 4: very importantly, your facilitator should ask you to spend sometime
Speaker 4: reflecting on what is your intention? What do you hope
Speaker 4: to get out of this experience? Is it healing? Is
Speaker 4: it when you want a spiritual experience? Do you need
Speaker 4: insight into a particular issue? You need to focus on
Speaker 4: what is your intention? Even you know, journal beforehand about
Speaker 4: what you hope to get out of this. And it's
Speaker 4: uncanny how the intention will manifest, even if you don't
Speaker 4: realize it at the time. Later when you're reviewing what happened.
Speaker 4: It's always good to write. When you're done, when the
Speaker 4: session is closed, the lights go on, just pull out
Speaker 4: your notebook and pen and just scribble whatever is in
Speaker 4: our mind, to nail it down, because what you write down,
Speaker 4: you remember very very clearly.
Speaker 3: I did this, and you know what, why not? In
Speaker 3: part two, I'm going to redo some I got to
Speaker 3: find it, but we're going to see what's in there. Also,
Speaker 3: for the record, this was in Oregon. Okay, it's legal there.
Speaker 3: It was an Oregon.
Speaker 4: So then you've got you know, you've got the preparatory
Speaker 4: experience and their intention is really important. Then you've got
Speaker 4: the actual experience, and you've got to allocate six to
Speaker 4: eight hours the facilitator should not leave you too soon,
Speaker 4: you know, and there needs to be good boundaries in
Speaker 4: the treatment room. That there have been some you know,
Speaker 4: missteps with boundaries in the past present, so that needs
Speaker 4: to be very clearly stated up front what the boundaries
Speaker 4: are regarding touch and stuff like that. And what we
Speaker 4: did was we didn't want to be overly intrusive to
Speaker 4: the subject, so we would check in every hour and
Speaker 4: you know kind of you know, tap their knear, tap
Speaker 4: their arm and say, how you doing, what's going on?
Speaker 3: I'm tripping doctor, And.
Speaker 4: Then we did a blood pressure and then as long
Speaker 4: as there wasn't anything major they needed to talk about,
Speaker 4: it's okay, lie down, put on the headphones, the ice shades,
Speaker 4: go deep into the experience. Now. Sometimes people will sit
Speaker 4: up between the hours, take off the imass, take off
Speaker 4: the headphone, and say I got to talk to you.
Speaker 4: And then you hear them out a little bit and
Speaker 4: sometimes yeah, they got a lot to talk about. We
Speaker 4: want to do it now. But sometimes, as you know,
Speaker 4: we have plenty of time at the end of the
Speaker 4: session to talk about this and in the days afterwards.
Speaker 4: So let's just put the mask on, let's put the
Speaker 4: headphones on, let's go deep into the experience.
Speaker 3: And in his well known paper Pilot Study of Psilocybin
Speaker 3: Treatment for Anxiety and Patients with advanced stage cancer, the
Speaker 3: methodology is laid out and experimental sessions took place in
Speaker 3: a hospital clinical research unit, but in a room decorated
Speaker 3: with fabric wall hangings and fresh flowers to provide a
Speaker 3: pleasing and comfortable environment, it says, and the volunteers checked
Speaker 3: in the day before, their cardiac health was monitored for
Speaker 3: twenty four hours ahead of time, and then they were
Speaker 3: given a light morning meal the morning of and at
Speaker 3: ten am a placebo or psilocybin was administered and the
Speaker 3: subject was encouraged to lie in bed wearing eye shades
Speaker 3: during the first few hours, as well as to put
Speaker 3: on headphones and listen to some pre selected music. And
Speaker 3: they were monitored during this whole six hour session and
Speaker 3: they were held a few hours after and told not
Speaker 3: to drive themselves home obviously, so they'd had a friend
Speaker 3: or family member pick them up, and later interviews collected
Speaker 3: data on what they perceived and how it felt, and
Speaker 3: according to the paper, they were asked to rate things
Speaker 3: like their quote oceanic boundlessness, their mood from elevated up
Speaker 3: to euphoric anxious, ego dissolution, visual and auditory hallucinations, and
Speaker 3: their sleepiness, which is okay, cool, this sucks if you
Speaker 3: got the sugar pill right.
Speaker 4: That reminds me of a story you know that happened.
Speaker 4: So we had a subject and everybody got two sessions.
Speaker 4: One was the act of drug. One was a placebo.
Speaker 4: The order was randomized and it was blinded, so neither
Speaker 4: the subject, nor myself nor my co facilitators knew what
Speaker 4: they were, but then we knew they would get one
Speaker 4: of each. So for the first session of this woman
Speaker 4: who had metastatic terminal cancer and a lot of reactive anxiety.
Speaker 4: Her first session, it's fairly convinced it was a placebo,
Speaker 4: but you know, you never know. So I was looking
Speaker 4: forward to a month later session two, and so we
Speaker 4: go through a little pre emblance, administer the psilocybin. She
Speaker 4: takes it, she lies empus. At one hour, nothing's happening,
Speaker 4: At two hours, nothing's happening. At three hours, nothing is happening.
Speaker 4: I'm getting concern of it and what could be going on?
Speaker 4: Did our research pharmacists slip up and give us a
Speaker 4: second placebo? But I figured, well, we just got to
Speaker 4: Then I said, I had one of the residents, psychiatric
Speaker 4: residents working with me with this patient, and I put
Speaker 4: him in charge of the music selection. So I said,
Speaker 4: you know, I think the music you are playing is
Speaker 4: just too mellow. We need something with a little more
Speaker 4: oomph to it. What do you have up here? He said, well,
Speaker 4: nothing up here, but down in my car, I was
Speaker 4: listening to Dead Can Dance. Do you know that anything?
Speaker 5: It was a god.
Speaker 4: Yes, it was Lisa Gerard.
Speaker 3: You know, yes, I know.
Speaker 4: It's not fabulous, and it's exactly what it pushes you.
Speaker 4: It really hamps it up. Yeah, fantastic, get it. So
Speaker 4: we pop it in and within minutes the floodgates open.
Speaker 4: She was sobbing, last, sobbing and sobbing, and I thought, oh, well,
Speaker 4: I know, I know, it's the real thing. Yeah, but
Speaker 4: also I didn't want it. It's rude. But I was
Speaker 4: thinking in my own mind what could be going on
Speaker 4: internally with her, and I thought, well, she must be
Speaker 4: getting in touch with her limited lifespan and her needing
Speaker 4: to let go of her attachments on in this world.
Speaker 4: But at the end of the session, when it was
Speaker 4: finally we concluded, we did our concluding ritual that I
Speaker 4: could talk. Well, what was going on? She says, Well,
Speaker 4: I had a vision of my father, who died many
Speaker 4: years ago. And my father and I loved each other
Speaker 4: very much, but we lived in a family where you
Speaker 4: didn't talk about emotions, so we never told each other
Speaker 4: how much we love them. So in my experience, in
Speaker 4: my vision, I was telling my dad how much I
Speaker 4: loved him, and he was telling me how much she
Speaker 4: loved me. And that was this remarkable experience. And Yeah,
Speaker 4: this was a woman who, before her participation in the study,
Speaker 4: had been on SSRIs for years. She never wanted to,
Speaker 4: she never felt she needed to go back on. Yeah
Speaker 4: the plan, lets go back on, but you'll give us
Speaker 4: a signal. Her positive mood impact sustained over weeks, months,
Speaker 4: and their last communication was maybe a year, and I
Speaker 4: don't think she survived much longer than that. But she
Speaker 4: still was told that she was deriving great benefit from
Speaker 4: that experience, and it really was this kind of re
Speaker 4: cafexis with her dad, who she grew up in a
Speaker 4: culture where you just didn't talk about feelings. Yeah, but internally,
Speaker 4: in her vision, she was talking about her feeling and
Speaker 4: he talked about his Wow Listen.
Speaker 3: Do we know where consciousness comes from? Not really? Do
Speaker 3: we know what dark matter is? Not really? Are there
Speaker 3: more life forms in the universe? We don't know what
Speaker 3: happens when we die unsure, but we do have an
Speaker 3: episode called quasi thanatology about near death experiences from a
Speaker 3: very straight laced researcher on the topic. But more on
Speaker 3: how or why we might talk to the dead in
Speaker 3: a bit. Also, just a wort of caution, don't stop
Speaker 3: or start any medications, including recreational, without your doctor's blessing.
Speaker 3: Check yourself for heart conditions anyway, even if you're not
Speaker 3: going to do drugs. And if you do use any
Speaker 3: kind of recreational drugs for the sake of your Internet
Speaker 3: dad's sanity, please read up on harm reduction test for
Speaker 3: fentanyl and all that. Obtain some emergency narcan think ahead. Okay,
Speaker 3: don't do anything illegal, please, But yeah, from a person
Speaker 3: who once raw dogged getting off effectser and nearly lost
Speaker 3: my whole mind with withdrawal anxiety attacks, please consider the
Speaker 3: risks of going off a medicine. Talk to your doctor.
Speaker 3: That was a big question. I have two questions from that. First,
Speaker 3: one maybe is easier. But if you're on an SNRI
Speaker 3: or an SSRI or a mood stabilizer, or you have
Speaker 3: a history of schizophrenia R what kind of like contraindications
Speaker 3: are there. I understand too that if you take psilocybin
Speaker 3: and you're on an SSRI or any kind of serotonin
Speaker 3: reuptake inhibitor, that it just won't work.
Speaker 4: Well. Yeah, yeah, the attenuation of effect. That's well known, and.
Speaker 3: If you don't know, you can see the twenty twenty
Speaker 3: three paper Attenuation of Psilocybin mushroom effects during and after SSRI,
Speaker 3: SLASH SNRI and a depressant use, which concluded that SSRI
Speaker 3: slash SNRIs appear to weaken psilocybin drug effects and this
Speaker 3: dampening effect may last as long is three months following
Speaker 3: antidepressant discontinuation. And that study was about psilocybin mushrooms specifically.
Speaker 3: But doctor Grob says.
Speaker 4: A colleague in my ayahuasca study, Chase Callaway from Finland.
Speaker 4: He and I published a paper together in the late
Speaker 4: nineties about adverse SSRI ayahuasca interactions causing a condition known
Speaker 4: as a serotonin syndrome. Yeah, because the ayahuasca contains miois
Speaker 4: and it just too much serotonin is swimming around in
Speaker 4: the sexual nervous system charging synaptic receptors, so with ayahuasca
Speaker 4: it could be dangerous, and we caution people about not
Speaker 4: mixing SSRIs and ayahuasca. It's somewhat controversial. I know people
Speaker 4: in Brazil who like to argue that, but I know
Speaker 4: what I've seen. I've seen several cases where that has
Speaker 4: clearly been the case. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, like if you
Speaker 4: take psilocybin or LSD and you're on prozac or something
Speaker 4: like that, it's an attenuation of effect, a dampening of effects.
Speaker 3: And another question I have, based on her story and
Speaker 3: my own story, why do we see so many dead people?
Speaker 3: I feel like everyone that I know who has done
Speaker 3: a mushroom trip, like my father died shortly before. I
Speaker 3: definitely talk to my dad a bunch. It felt like
Speaker 3: I was talking with him. I feel like I had
Speaker 3: a weird vision of my dead grandmother who came in
Speaker 3: when it first started to take effect. I told my sitter,
Speaker 3: who was my husband, I was like, it's so crowded here.
Speaker 3: There's so many ancestors who have come to meet me
Speaker 3: at the train station, and then you mentioned your dad's bilicus.
Speaker 3: Why do you think that it causes something in our brain?
Speaker 4: It taps into something very very primal, something very very deep,
Speaker 4: and I think it's a great mystery. Yeah, and it
Speaker 4: really explains I think religions that are based on ancestor connectedness,
Speaker 4: and you see that with the Eboca, the Buetze in
Speaker 4: West Africa and Gabon. Like I said earlier, the direction
Speaker 4: is have a vision of an ancestor, or we're going
Speaker 4: to keep feeding you this at Boca. This chopped up
Speaker 4: at Boca, you'll have a vision of an ancestor or
Speaker 4: you'll die, whichever comes first.
Speaker 3: Very serious, You better conjure for grandpa. Grandpa's here.
Speaker 4: Sometimes I wonder if some of these young people may
Speaker 4: be thinking on the spot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all good. Can I ask you some questions
Speaker 3: from listeners that they sent in some questions I told
Speaker 3: them you specifically were coming on a lot of people
Speaker 3: wanted to know about access. People wanted to know what's
Speaker 3: your opinion on legalizing all hallucinogenic mushrooms? How do you
Speaker 3: feel about Oregon recently legalizing it? Where are we at
Speaker 3: with it? If someone wanted to do this like my
Speaker 3: psychiatrist is like, just get a hold of them. So
Speaker 3: far I haven't been arrested for talking about it, right.
Speaker 4: Right, nor have I.
Speaker 3: So ask tremendous experts trippy questions, and next week we
Speaker 3: will cover so many juicy ones, from set and setting
Speaker 3: to criminalization, a critical look at the stone ape theory,
Speaker 3: fMRI studies, neurodivergence, astrophysics and psychedelics, how to be a
Speaker 3: good trip sitter, and my own experience following clinical guidelines
Speaker 3: for a big trip, which for the record, I did
Speaker 3: an Oregon where it's legal. Sure, So stay tuned and
Speaker 3: make sure you're subscribed for next week's intense and very
Speaker 3: wonderful conclusion of this. And of course we have links
Speaker 3: to doctor Grob's work in the show notes so you
Speaker 3: can follow up and see what he's been working on. Also,
Speaker 3: if you like podcasts, I'd like to take a moment
Speaker 3: to shout out my friend Rose Eveli's new one called Tested,
Speaker 3: A Surprising History of Women's Sports. It's about a group
Speaker 3: of female track and field superstars that are told they're
Speaker 3: too fast to be women. And Rose evelyth you may
Speaker 3: remember from our Futurology episode and as a host of
Speaker 3: the podcast flash Forward. Rose is an award winning reporter
Speaker 3: and writer. I'm honored to say they're a friend of mine,
Speaker 3: so subscribe to their new series Tested, which will trace
Speaker 3: the very surprising one hundred year history of sex testing
Speaker 3: in elite sports that led to this moment, and Rose
Speaker 3: will asks a question that goes far beyond sports, which
Speaker 3: is what fair and who decides? So you can look
Speaker 3: for Tested wherever you get podcasts. So that's my little
Speaker 3: plug for Ros. And as for us, we also have
Speaker 3: a new show called Smologies, available wherever you get podcasts,
Speaker 3: which each week we release a new, g rated and
Speaker 3: shortened episode of Ologies classics that are suitable for all ages,
Speaker 3: all occasions. So if you're going on a family road trip,
Speaker 3: get some Smologies in yours now. You can become a
Speaker 3: patron of Ologies at patreon dot com sash Ologies and
Speaker 3: we'll be asking wall the wall Patreon questions for next
Speaker 3: week's episode. Ologies. Merch is available at the link in
Speaker 3: the show notes. Aaron Talbert admin's our Ologies podcast Facebook group.
Speaker 3: Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts. Noel Dilworth is our
Speaker 3: scheduling producer. Susan Hale is our managing director and Frankly
Speaker 3: our trip sitter every week, and Kelly Ardwyer does the
Speaker 3: website and piecing together. The fractals of audio are Chick
Speaker 3: Chafee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick
Speaker 3: Thorburn wrote the theme song. If you stick around to
Speaker 3: the end of the episode, I tell you a secret
Speaker 3: this week. It's that I will tell you more about
Speaker 3: my own mushroom experience next week. I've mentioned it briefly
Speaker 3: here and there in other episodes, but might as well
Speaker 3: get into it. Also, people are always like, Ali, why
Speaker 3: don't you just go to a professional salon to get
Speaker 3: your hair colored? Why do you do it with box
Speaker 3: dye in your bathroom? And I finally got my haircut,
Speaker 3: I look like an overgrown doodle with roots, and so
Speaker 3: I was like, you know what, I'm going to have
Speaker 3: a professional handle this. I'm worth it. But I have
Speaker 3: so much hair that whenever I get it done professionally,
Speaker 3: these poor colorists are like trying to whack their way,
Speaker 3: like frosting my yak hair with dye, and by the
Speaker 3: time they're done, it's been on my head so long
Speaker 3: that it's turned not copper as intended, but it always
Speaker 3: comes out this like brownish purple, and then it cost
Speaker 3: me two hundred dollars instead of like twelve dollars in
Speaker 3: my bathroom. But I took myself to a place, I
Speaker 3: treated myself, and I must report that my hair right
Speaker 3: now is purplish brown. But we tried. Maybe the stylists
Speaker 3: are just trying to tell me I'm not a good
Speaker 3: fake redhead. But anyway, I'm temporarily brunette now, which is
Speaker 3: just how it's going to go for a bit. Okay,
Speaker 3: next week we're going to get into more mystical neurobiological
Speaker 3: stuff deeper than my hair problems. Okay for by hacadermatology,
Speaker 3: homiology or do zoology, lithology, new technology, meteorology, all of metteratology, ethology, seriology, celenology.
Speaker 3: I have a great trip.
Speaker 1: I see dead people.