Speaker 1: Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is
not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advice said,
I'm going to the defense of how as she said,
it's all over now and it's done.
Speaker 2: Does a new show come in? So stick around after
the music and you'll find out more. This is season two,
episode two hundred and eighty two of Sword and Scale.
So that reveals that the worst monsters.
Speaker 3: Are real.
Speaker 2: Well, I lie not about the show that's coming up.
It is coming up, but about telling you about the
show that's coming up. Because I'm not going to tell
you anything. I'm going to keep it a secret this time.
You're not going to find out a damn thing until
it comes out. March third. In a family where chaos rains,
it's easy to lose sight of the cracks forming beneath
the surface. Born into a world of addiction, mental illness,
and unspeakable secrets, one can grow so accustomed to the
madness that it becomes invisible. Each day brings a new crisis,
new fire to put out, and amidst the smoke and shadows,
it's impossible to notice the creeping darkness closing in the
familiar feels like survival until it's not. Like the proverbial
frog sitting in a pot of water, the rising heat
goes unnoticed. There's too much to manage, calming the parents'
paranoid delusions, steering a sibling away from another destructive path,
trying to hold it all together. The storms are so
familiar that they barely register anymore, and while tending to
each fresh disaster, something far more dangerous is below. It's
a slow, insidious bubbling, and before there's any time to escape,
the water has reached a dangerous boil. In two thousand
and seven, twenty one year old Lauren Kukla found herself
shouldering the full responsibility of her family's physical and emotional
well being. Though she had small children of her own,
their needs aren't what I'm talking about here. Lauren was
not only caring for her immediate household, but also managing
the endless conflicts between her late schizophrenic mother and her
four older siblings, none of whom could seem to get
their lives together for some reason. Conveniently, they all lived
in the same area near McComb, Michigan, and Lauren was
stuck carrying a burden far beyond her years. Though her
siblings houses were chaotic, messy, and filled with conflict, Lauren's
house was different. Though she was young, she and her
family lived a white picket fence kind of life. Compared
to her two older sisters and two older brothers. Her
sister Elizabeth or Lizzie was on drugs and had already
lost custody of her children, and her sister, thirty year
old Jennifer or Jenny, the oldest of all the siblings,
was walking that same tightrope. How Lauren turned out to
be a normal, functioning member of society after growing up
in a household like this is really a mystery. On Saturday,
February third, two thousand and seven, all while trying to
juggle her career and her young children's needs, Lauren got
a call from Jenny. As usual, her oldest sister was
having a meltdown and needed help.
Speaker 4: He had told me that she believed that Elizabeth Koukla
or Lowry, I'm sorry, her sister and Lisa Fabric that
they were growing up as that may be, had led
her to believe that they were.
Speaker 5: Going to have her kids taken away. They were going
to call the CPS.
Speaker 1: As far as I know, at that time that was
a truthful statement, was he denied it When I went
to her up to her place at Portant later at
that time, I could see her saying something like that
because she said it to me before twenty times in
the past couple of years. She said she hates Jack,
she wished that she would just clean up her ant and.
Speaker 6: Blah blah blah whatever.
Speaker 1: Because Lizzie got her kids taken away, she thought that
she was fighting for them, but she wasn't fighting.
Speaker 5: For them because she was always doing crack and shit
like that, so she.
Speaker 1: Wasn't really working at it, but she wanted anybody to
believe that she couldn't, so now she wants I could
see her wanning.
Speaker 5: Some kind of revenge or wanting Jenny to feel the
same pain as her.
Speaker 2: Lizzie wasn't threatening to report Jenny to CPS because she
was genuinely concerned about her nieces. She just hated her
sister and wanted to see Jenny lose her kids too.
Speaker 5: Nice right, You could hear that she was afraid that
her kids may be taken away. She wanted to make
sure that they were You know, do you believe.
Speaker 3: She sounded an entax kids No, I didn't.
Speaker 5: I didn't hear.
Speaker 1: I mean, Jenny was an alcoholic k as is, so
I couldn't tell the difference either way, you know what
I mean? She wasn't stupid drunk kid by the time. Okay,
so and she called it did know that she You
could tell that she just wanted to make sure that
the girls were I mean that the house was taken
care of.
Speaker 5: He because she did not want to lose her because
she was concerned.
Speaker 2: The whole family knew Jenny was an alcoholic, but her
habits had gotten worse over the prior months. Finances were tight,
and she was spending any extra money she had on
beer and all of her free time drinking it. The kids,
three dogs, the pet mouse, none of them were being
cared for properly, and the trailer they lived in was
an absolute disaster, as you can imagine. To top it
all off, they didn't even have running water.
Speaker 3: How long were the pape was frozen for?
Speaker 1: She had said something to me on Thursday about it.
Speaker 6: So just a few.
Speaker 1: Days and everything worked, the heat worked and everything is that.
The furnace broke the day before in Ale came.
Speaker 5: It fixed it that day.
Speaker 2: Al was Jenny's boyfriend you lived nearby and the two
were still friends.
Speaker 6: They were waiting that trailer on her own with.
Speaker 1: For the most part, yes, there was I think there
was one time in the spring that she had her
gas turned off and she called me. It was after
it was it was fall, because my mom had already
passed away. She called me and she said, said, you
got to call grandma. And now I'm going to go
between between Grandma.
Speaker 6: Because I took it.
Speaker 1: Upon myself to make sure everything was, you know, taking
care of with my mom and taking care of his grandma.
Everybody kind of looked at me as the one people
would help them if they needed something from Grandma. So
she asked me, I need money for rent, any money
to fix the car.
Speaker 6: I need money to get my license back, any.
Speaker 5: Money to you know, all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And I like, I think it was you got to
get clean. You're drinking, you know when I can help you.
And Grandma was like, I wish I didn't give her
a lecture. I said, you have to give her lecture
every time, althoughay, she doesn't know how you fail. Grandma,
I said, no, this is your fault, you know, And
I just she did have a shut off all the times,
but not to the extent where the girls didn't have
anywhere else to go or you know, couldn't take care.
Speaker 5: Of themselves and stuff. And they always had food enough
frigs and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: So unfortunately, food in the fridge is not the only
criteria CPS looks for when deciding whether a home is
safe for children. It looked like Jenny might actually get
a visit from a social worker, and it wouldn't be
the first time CPS had taken her kids before, but
she knew that if it happened again, she might not
be able to get them back. Lauren didn't want to
be at her family's beck and call. She knew Jenny's
situation was largely because of her own unwillingness to get
help for her alcoholism and whatever else was going on
in her drama filled life. Her chief concern were her
two nieces, Jenny's eight year old daughter Alexa apologies if
I just activated your devices at home and five year
old daughter Ashley. So Lauren, the family crisis manager that
she was, gathered some friends, a guy named Russell and
a woman named Jessica. She offered them ten bucks for
their time and drove them over to her sister's house
to help her clean it up.
Speaker 1: So then I went to Ale's house to pick her up,
and she who's al vander Boss, which just the man
whether where she was at. He lives in trailer park
as well. Yeah, like they're all with them, their two
black ladies. So I drove over there after. I asked Russell,
I have Jessica. They wanted to make tech box. I
asked Stacy too, but she.
Speaker 5: Said she didn't want to go in the house because
she knows too dirty.
Speaker 3: She wanted to with that. Okay, so you picked up
any of the two kids.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I picked up Jennifer.
Speaker 1: I think the kids stayed there with Ale and I
had Russell or Duska in the car with me.
Speaker 3: Okay, So he picked up Jennifer at vander Boss.
Speaker 5: I think that's in the statement. I think you made
a boss.
Speaker 3: I'm sure main or Voss and that she boyfriend just.
Speaker 6: As boyfriend still friends kind of.
Speaker 3: Oh, Jenny man, okay, Uh, kids kids were lost there.
Speaker 5: She got in the car, she was acting fine. She
just said, you know, let's go right now, we'll get
it's done. And I said, okay, Jenny, you know we
have a couple of hours or whatever we've been done.
She was, she was upset. I remember her saying something.
She was upset because she thinks Lisa.
Speaker 6: And Livedsey were gonna call.
Speaker 3: Where did she she said?
Speaker 1: She said that when she was over at Elizabeth's house
earlier that day, she was on the phone with Lisa,
Lisa had told her something that triggered a memory.
Speaker 7: Of how.
Speaker 1: It's possible that she may have been hypnotized into being
a bad person.
Speaker 3: And that like sypathized Jennifer.
Speaker 1: She said that she Lisa said something that triggered a
memory of some kind into her realizing that she may
have been hypnotized.
Speaker 2: During her teenage years, Jenny was probably grasping its straws,
trying to find reasons why her life turned out as
terribly as it did and why she couldn't seem to
be a good parent like her little sister Lauren. See
I wonder why being you know, hypnotized is an answer
that takes the blame off of Jenny herself. It's one
of the things that alcoholics do. Just trust me on that.
Though she wasn't actually hypnotized, Jenny hadn't had an easy life. Sure,
her situation was a result of her own decisions, but
decisions are often influenced by past experiences, and Jenny's life
had been rather traumatic.
Speaker 6: Jenny always had problems.
Speaker 5: She believed that she was worth us.
Speaker 8: She believed, I mean, she.
Speaker 1: Was raped and everything else from moun didn't take care
of her, you know her like our mom, I meant
a lot. And she probably thought, you know, for some reason,
I'm not being taken care of because you know, my
mom brought this horrible man into her life.
Speaker 6: You know what I mean.
Speaker 5: Like she just she just kept getting different kinds of
thoughts about that.
Speaker 7: So when back to you told me the day you're
you're a natural father was convicted of rape of Jennifer.
Speaker 3: And work at what age, like how old? I think
it was a very long period of time.
Speaker 5: I think from like twelve to fifteen.
Speaker 3: Twelve to fifteen.
Speaker 1: She was molested from Joseph, her father's brother, Robert. He's
actually impaired. She told me that he molested her as
well growing up in the younger ages that the neighbor
at the residents that I live in now, one of
the old neighbors that live there, like their nephew or something.
Speaker 5: Lest year as well. She was very.
Speaker 1: Just I mean walking down the street kind of thing.
She told me before my other sister I'm refer she
was raped. She pulled into a van.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 2: Even after a childhood full of abuse, Jenny managed to
pull something of a life together. She had full custody
of her two young daughters, had a place for them
to live, and worked as a manager for McDonald's. She
wasn't addicted to hard drugs like her sister Lizzie, but
alcoholism can be more difficult to beat because it's normalized
in society. I mean, try going out, just going out
on the weekend. Try to do something and not be
around alcohol. It's impossible. Plus, you know, no one gives
you a side eye if they see you sipping on
a can of beer. How would they know it's your
twelfth drink. On the other hand, if you have a
needle hanging out of your arm, like a lot of
the residents of Portland, someone might actually call the cops
on you. Probably not a Democrat though. Anyways, Lauren, Jenny
and their posse of helpers arrived at the trailer and
got to work.
Speaker 3: So, yes, you guys wanted to get bottles from now
The whole time the kids weren't here.
Speaker 5: No, the whole time, the kids were at Al's house.
Speaker 1: And Jenny told me, go pick up some more beer
from ails and bring it back before you go to
the store.
Speaker 5: And we went to Ale's house and I grabbed the beers.
Speaker 3: Okay, and how many you guys we some before that
I didn't have it. They didn't have any.
Speaker 5: She Al has said that she had some before, and
I don't really know. And she had some at her
house too, and she drank a couple hover cleaning for
the first hour and a.
Speaker 1: Half or with that, we went to turn all the
bottles that she had, I mean, she had some in
her shut she had on her sanksha all the house.
Speaker 5: So we were trying to clear the clutter make some
money for garbage bags like balbs. Water. The pipes were frozen,
so we could you know, pet it up her wash forever.
And so we went to the store. We came back
and we just continued to clean.
Speaker 3: And she were still alone and came back.
Speaker 5: Well, like I said, we'd forgotten to bring her that beer.
So she was really happy when we got back because
she had her beer again. My mother serxture, you get
something we brought her some more beer, and at that
time we just finished up cleaning. Jessica was.
Speaker 1: Getting lazy, playing with the dogs or whatever. And then
me and Russell were in the girls better finishing out.
Speaker 5: Vacuum and stuff.
Speaker 1: And then I went and did the bathroom myself and
did the me and Russell did the back better, and
Jenny was doing the kitchen and addish and stuff, trying.
Speaker 5: To get everything out of the kitchen.
Speaker 2: At this point, Jenny was becoming more paranoid with each beer.
After the others left, Jenny confided in her sister that
she feared they too would call CPS on her since
they had seen the state of the house firsthand.
Speaker 1: Josica might know because I know she and he was
afraid that Jessica was going to call the CPS because
of something that she said, which.
Speaker 5: I don't know what she said. I have no idea.
She's like, she's like, you know they're going to call there.
You know they probably think, you know, horrible mom and
all this stuff, and I don't.
Speaker 6: Jeffer was afraid was going to yah.
Speaker 5: She was afraid Russell and jess.
Speaker 6: We're going to call too.
Speaker 5: I said, why would they do that? One they were
here helping, you know, and she was afraid that they
were going to do something too.
Speaker 6: So I'm like, I mean, did they did either wrestle
or just never better call CPS?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 5: And in fact, in the car when we were going
to alehouse and I told her that she was afraid, she.
Speaker 1: Goes, she told me not to tell you guys, But
I was like, you're not going to call the CPS, right,
And Jessica's like, no, you know.
Speaker 5: I'm taking away from my mom too.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: She's like, you know I got taken away from my
mom too, and you know I would never do that
to you, and you know, I want to help these kids.
Speaker 3: This was on the way to wils to.
Speaker 5: Pick up the girl.
Speaker 1: She was telling me this stuff, and Jenny had told
me right before we left, like they were getting the
car and she was like, just make sure they don't
call her, and I think she was really fearful that
they would have called.
Speaker 6: So you guys left to go with the girls. Yeah,
and brought the girls back.
Speaker 1: We left to go get the girls and I helped
them to start get ready, and all of a sudden,
Jenny showed up. Yeah, she ran she's two streets away,
and she got that's kind of weird to me because
she thought we'd left the cell phone there, which I asked,
asked her if that cell phone twice was hers, because
I knew she lost hers.
Speaker 5: But I know she had a boost mobile and this
was a motor roll up. In fact, the phone is
in my car right now.
Speaker 1: But I said, you know, I don't know where that
phone came from, and she's like, I was, like, I
moved it, I put it on it on the end
table like three times, Jenny, I even asked you if
it was yours, and she's like, oh.
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, but why don't she went over there?
Speaker 6: The phone phone right back.
Speaker 5: And it's possible as I didn't turn it on or anything.
It doesn't turn on, but I'm sure it works.
Speaker 1: But it just seems it strikes me, as I that
she would run all the way over there, even though
we were taking the kids back there, you know what
I'm saying.
Speaker 2: So, just to summarize all that, Lauren and the others
left Jenny at the trailer while they went to pick
up Jenny's two daughters, Alexa and n Ashley. Jenny must
have been suspicious that they were conspiring against her to
help CPS take away the kids, and literally ran several
blocks to the house the girls were staying at under
the guise of returning a cell phone.
Speaker 1: So I think that she was even fearful at that
time that I would try to take the kids, and
which I don't understand, but whatever. So we Jenny got
in the back and I have the third l sitting
station wag and she got on the back with Lexa.
The first thing she said when she opened the back
and I was already in the car and actually was
in I have a like a booster seat for her.
This was big enough for my daughter and big enough
for her. And she's like, Lauren, why would you ask
Lexa if she does if she even liked me.
Speaker 5: I'm like, I didn't say that. And I was like, Lexa,
did you ask her?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 1: Like I was being complex, like how you talk to kids,
you know, and she's like, she's just quiet, you know,
she didn't say anything. And then she's like, Jenny goes,
are you lying, Lexa? And you know, not angry, not angry.
Speaker 6: She was more concerned for you know, why she would
lie to her?
Speaker 1: And and I said, Jenny, I didn't say that, And
I said, I talked to him earlier this week when
they were at my house, and I said that, you know,
mama tries her boss, you know.
Speaker 5: And that was the end of the conversation. And we
drove home and the kids were just.
Speaker 6: Saying, what about did Lesa actually ask her?
Speaker 8: I don't her.
Speaker 5: I wasn't. I mean, I got into there was.
Speaker 6: Never any answer to the question because you asked her.
She never answered question. Jenny asked her. Lexa never answered,
never answered the question.
Speaker 5: But I know she was quiet, and Lexi had a
tendency to do stuff like that, just.
Speaker 1: Kind of tattle or like say, you know, mix up
the words or something, and that Jenny would get, not upset,
but she would get like like why why do you
have to you have to lie any kind of.
Speaker 5: Thing, you know. And so we drove home.
Speaker 1: Everything was fine, and we were you know, I had
the radio on whatever. But she opened the door and
she went in, and then the girls, you know, they
went in right ahead of me.
Speaker 5: I don't know how we got mixed up with anyway.
Speaker 1: And I was like, no, stop because they weren't taking
off their shoes and stuff. I was showing on the
door to take off their shoes to put their colts
and stuff, you know, and I said.
Speaker 6: They're like, wow, they're looking around.
Speaker 1: They're all excited because the house was so much cleaner
than it was before, like literally three hundred times better, right,
And I mean even I probably weren't used to have
a place to hang the coats and the right, but
they weren't used to and they yearned.
Speaker 5: So I don't want to cry, but they yarn so bad.
Speaker 1: They have that kind of home, that home when they
ran at my house and stuff, they knew, they knew
the difference.
Speaker 5: They were playing with my kids on and said Thursday night,
they love it.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: I was teaching her how to wash from top to
bottom in the bath pen of thing, you know what,
you have to rinse it all out.
Speaker 1: Lost. I was in there, you know, lost the night
and brushing my teeth and stuff. I was like, you
got to get ready for bed, you have to, you know.
I was just thinking, to my hand, how does she
not know this stuff at you know, almost nine years
old and she doesn't know how to.
Speaker 5: Take care of her own body. Well, I mean, yeah,
I know the frozen pipes.
Speaker 2: But other than that, I mean, other than the frozen pipes.
The group had successfully gotten the trailer up to par
Lauren thought she'd fixed the problem. Surely Jenny had no
reason to be concerned anymore. Lauren went home that night
to take care of her own household and planned to
check in on Jenny and her kids the very next day,
right after her shift at the local family restaurant. She
expected to see Jenny lounging around, enjoying the day with
her girls and their newly clean trailer. Lauren certainly hadn't
pictured herself dialing nine one one. Twenty one year old
Lauren Kukla had just cleaned up another family crisis. One
of her sisters, Lizzie, had already lost custody of her children,
and her oldest sister, Jennifer, was about to meet the
same fate. That was, until Lauren rallied a group together
to help Jennifer tidy up her house in preparation for
a CPS visit. The next day, Sunday, February fourth, Lauren
planned to drive over and check in on her sister,
but she was wholly unprepared for what she'd find.
Speaker 3: She worked what time eleven or time I worked from ten?
Speaker 1: I was there at nine fifty to all the way
to five o'clock five fifteen.
Speaker 2: After work, Lauren picked up her kids and drove over
to Jenny's trailer to check in. When she got there,
the front door was hanging open. This immediately struck Lauren
as odd. After all, it was winter in Michigan.
Speaker 5: I pulled up up, you know, I called the name
because the door was open.
Speaker 8: Like I said, she called her name.
Speaker 1: I called her name, and I was on the phone
with my friend Jason at the time, telling them all
about how, you know, how my sister is being annoying
us like or whatever, you know, and how she's pissing
me out.
Speaker 5: So I'm going over there right now to see if
she can find her phone in my car or whatever.
Speaker 1: And he's like, I'm like, okay, hold on one second,
because the door is open and all the lights are off.
Speaker 5: He's like okay. And then I call her name, and
then he was I was like, okay, anyway, I'll you know,
I'll call you later.
Speaker 6: And I'm out with him.
Speaker 5: And then Jenny comes to the door dress like a
hobo and like a skirt, jeans and sweaters and whatever.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 5: I don't even know exactly what her tosks were.
Speaker 1: But I know, jeans and a kanke skirt wearing a bottom,
and I was thinking that was really weird, and so
that's not what I'm used to dress sometimes.
Speaker 5: When she was being stupid.
Speaker 2: What Lauren meant by when she was being stupid is
that her mother used to layer odd, unmatching pieces of
clothing during bad mental health episodes. Increasingly, Jenny was starting
to act more and more like her mother. She would
ramble on about nonsensical things, have bouts of extreme paranoia,
and just you know, actor ratic. Now, Lauren could see
a visual representation of the transformation that had been taking
place for years as Jenny's mental health quietly declined. She
had a khaki shirt layered over a pair of jeans,
Her hair was disheveled, and, like Lauren said, she looked
like a homeless person anyway.
Speaker 5: So I go out to the door. I left the
kids in the car. You know, I'm playing. I'm just
stopping at the door, saying, you know, let's go out
to eat or whatever. I did pretty good at work.
I was going to say, let's find.
Speaker 6: Your phone and do whatever we gotta do today.
Speaker 1: I noticed the first thing that the dogs didn't run
up to me or run outside, or where the hell
were the dogs.
Speaker 5: I know, I know the door was opened, but usually
they're visual, you know, I don't know where they are, so.
Speaker 1: I didn't hear any barking, and I go, where are
the girls, because usually they at least have a TV
out or something at the radio on.
Speaker 5: I was in the door, literally in the doorway, and.
Speaker 6: She stood in the door, didn't actually go into yeah.
Speaker 5: And then she said I have a cigarett.
Speaker 1: And that's when I took my first step into the door,
you know, into the actual house, asked for a cigarette,
and then I noticed this quiet.
Speaker 5: I said, where it is?
Speaker 4: She said she.
Speaker 1: Stand back towards the kitchen table where we're sitting night
before there in the corner, and she said I killed him.
Speaker 5: And I said no.
Speaker 1: She said, I'm going to the All I said was no,
pretty much. I mean, I don't remember if I said
anything else, but I just said no, and.
Speaker 5: Not not like no no, you know, like it was
like no, you know.
Speaker 1: And and she said I'm going to the defensive health
and she said it's all over now and it's done.
And that was she wasn't looking at me. She was
looking at the ground and it was plays faced again
and and it was monotone voice too, and.
Speaker 5: It is done like that, it is done. And she goes,
I'm going there, and she looked up and she goes,
you have to call the police any Laura. And I said, okay,
I said, but show me how you tried to kill yourself.
Speaker 1: And soon as she showed me the wrist, I had
already backed up enough to where I was out almost
out the door at the doorway again, and she showed
it to me.
Speaker 5: And I was on the porch by that, like I
took another stuff back.
Speaker 1: When I was on the porch or the deck or whatever,
I was starting to go, okay, Jen, you stay here,
keep calm, And that's when I.
Speaker 3: I mean, I was like, you know, never yeah.
Speaker 2: Before her police interview, investigators hope that allowing Lauren to
listen to her own nine one one call over again
would jog her memory and help them piece together what
was going through Jenny's mind.
Speaker 5: Well, like, I mean, if you.
Speaker 1: Could listen to it right now, I was really calm
in the beginning because I'm still outside of the.
Speaker 5: Car when I called, and Jenny was like, are you calling?
Speaker 3: And I said.
Speaker 1: I wanted to say no because I didn't know. I
was fearful for my kids in the car and for myself.
But I was walking around to get the dressed in
the copy.
Speaker 3: We're looking the driveway around the streets.
Speaker 1: I walked around the back of the car because I'm thinking,
I'm looking in the car after because she showed me
a wrist. I'm looking in the car for anything that
I could grab out, you know. I'm saying, if she
comes after me, I don't know.
Speaker 6: And then I walk up. I don't want to ring
her hands, nothing for nothing like that.
Speaker 1: I think she may have been smoking a cigarette because
I gave her one, but I gave her the letter
to use her and she.
Speaker 3: Gave it back to me.
Speaker 1: But I'm walking around the back of the car, standing
behind the station wage and thinking that's the safest place
if i have to run, because I know.
Speaker 5: My car is locked and I have the keys in
my pocket. So I'm staying back there, and I'm saying, yes, Jennifer,
I'm calling you know whatever. I started on a dispatch.
I told them, you know, I don't know what's going on.
I know, and then they're like, man, you have you know.
I fee tallest, and I'm thinking, you know, what is
there to I can't. I couldn't even fathom go in
to what am I supposed to say?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 1: And I remember telling them that, yeah, she harmed herself
and she said that she killed her kids.
Speaker 2: When police arrived at the scene and entered the trailer,
they found Jenny pacing around, ready to be taken to
the quote depths of hell. Their eyes were quickly drawn
to the first bloody scene, three dead dogs piled up
inside a crate. Jenny hadn't stopped there. She even stabbed
the pet mouse inside its cage. As officers made their
way to the back bedroom, they could see that tragically,
Jenny was telling the truth about her kids. That year
old Alexa laid motionless on a makeshift bed next to
her five year old sister Ashley. Their throats had been cut.
Speaker 6: Jennifer, you know Mark right, he's been talking to him.
Like I said, I'm Dave. We both worked here for
the Sheriff's office. Okay, you want to talk to you
about what's going on.
Speaker 8: Okay, before we do that, can you look at me
while we're talking?
Speaker 6: Clear here at your face.
Speaker 3: I can see it. There you go look at me.
There you go.
Speaker 8: Before we do that, hey, nineteen, I contact me.
Speaker 6: Okay, before we do that, we have to read you
your rights.
Speaker 8: Okay.
Speaker 3: You know what those are. You've heard about it, you
see my TV. All right, I'm gonna read them to you.
Speaker 8: Okay, seeactly is they are on the list here, all right,
and then.
Speaker 6: We're done, like you just sign them okay, and then
we can talk. We can't talk until we do that,
right Are you cold?
Speaker 5: I want to talk about it?
Speaker 6: Are you just nervous?
Speaker 5: I'm wanna talk about it. I don't want to think
about it.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 10: Let me just read your rights here, okay, like you
have to write for your main silence first of all, Jennifer, okay,
take any breath.
Speaker 3: Okay, get ahold of yourself.
Speaker 5: All right, so I don't know, get ahold of yourself
right now.
Speaker 6: You're a set if you got right to be.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 5: We got to go through this all right, Okay.
Speaker 6: Do you understand all those yes?
Speaker 5: Okay?
Speaker 8: And then the last question is.
Speaker 6: I mean I don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 10: You finish a surf. I really state I have really statements.
Oh my right, so I understand what my rights are.
I'm willing to make a statement answer questions. I do
not want a lawyer at this time. I understand and
know what I'm doing. No promise is the threat's been
made to me, no pressure or course of any kind
of news against me. Okay, do you understand that?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 8: All that, knowing all that, you want to talk to
us right now?
Speaker 5: I don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 3: I don't want to think about it.
Speaker 8: Okay, Okay, enniversity, because you want to talk to an.
Speaker 5: Attorney or do you I don't even want to think
about it.
Speaker 11: We just want to get a couple of things straights,
make sure we've got everything, got everything right, okay, So
we don't want to get everything anything wrong.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 11: If you want to talk to an attorney, that's one thing.
But if you just if you're a little nervous about it,
maybe can work that out. You're very cooperative during the
the friends of the name, which we really appreciate. Nurses
were very pleased with that.
Speaker 5: Are you cold, well, I just don't want to talk
about it.
Speaker 6: H you want a blanket?
Speaker 3: No, get your blanket or okay?
Speaker 5: So if you remember that, I love you for that one.
Speaker 8: Okay, sit tiny for a minute.
Speaker 2: In case you couldn't understand her. At the end, she said,
erase my brain, erase my memory, and I'd love you
for that one. We can only imagine what's in there.
Speaker 3: Do you understand what we're trying to do here? You know,
like I said, if you want an attorney or something
like that, I can understand it.
Speaker 11: Just try something, though. I'm just I'm just talking to you,
not an We just want to make sure we got
things right. We want to make sure we're going to
understand it. We don't want to make any mistakes. That's
why we want to talk to you.
Speaker 3: I don't want to of course, I don't want to
talk you into talk.
Speaker 11: And if you if you want to talk to attorney,
but if you're just a little nervous, we can wait.
We can get you some water, you know, just just
got your relaxed a little bit. Okay, get your blanket.
Speaker 3: It is cold in there. I'm even cold in there.
Speaker 2: It's clear that these guys were getting nervous that Jenny
made a not to talk, so they started to employ
a little bit of good cop, bad cop. Just before
the one detective was able to follow through on his
promise of some water in a blanket. The other came
bursting back into the room.
Speaker 3: What do you think about that? Well, I sit and
think about it with a little bit of water in
a blanket. Water. Okay, we'll gonna get you some.
Speaker 8: Water, all right. You don't want to talk to us,
is that right? You don't want to talk to us.
Speaker 6: I don't want to talk.
Speaker 1: About it, or you can add I can see if
I can't answer it with I don't I can't crap.
Speaker 6: Okay, stay up there, answered you back.
Speaker 2: They took her back to her cell and planned to
try again the next day.
Speaker 12: Con Man used to reiterate, Yesterday you said you didn't
want to talk to us because you you just run
out to us a talk. Today, you want to talk
to us, Jennifer. Today you do want to talk to
us without the owner presence. It doesn't matter, okay, And
see it doesn't matter. That means you want to talk
to us.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 6: He've been broken career. Don't want to come off truth, Jennifer.
Do you take any of medication normally at all? Nothing? No, okay,
nothing for any type of psychiatric or nothing for any type.
Speaker 3: Of the physical.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 2: Once Jennifer really starts to open up, the detectives. In
this interview, it's clear that she absolutely needed to be
on psychiatric medicine. It's not often that we gain access
to police interviews of defendants suffering from severe mental illness,
but Jennifer's case is unique. We'll get back to that later.
Speaker 3: Well, what do you want to know?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 6: Well, we know when we're here, right, yeah, okay, and
we know what happen, and you know what happened, right.
Speaker 3: The big question is why, And that's what I want.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 13: I really don't fucking know. It's like the night before
or two nights before, you got whatever. I just stay
up all my line up there, and every time I
close my eyes and keep having like bad dreams they're
like dead people or whatever and blah blah blah, And
I'm like, well, what the hell?
Speaker 5: This is just weird.
Speaker 6: So I freaking didn't.
Speaker 5: Even think about that.
Speaker 6: Does this happen to you frequently, that you dream about
dead people or No?
Speaker 5: Never I watched freaking story movies. Nothing, it's just hears me, first.
Speaker 6: Time you've ever had that type of thing. Okay, I mean,
help my kid.
Speaker 5: We were so watching sci fi here all the time.
Speaker 6: Okay.
Speaker 5: Anyway, so I was look up all night for that.
No big deal, We'll go next day, No big deal,
no crowns, nothing.
Speaker 3: Would that have been?
Speaker 6: What day would that have been?
Speaker 3: I don't remember.
Speaker 5: I don't even know what day it is right now.
Speaker 6: Today's Monday.
Speaker 5: When did I get here?
Speaker 6: Yesterday was Sunday?
Speaker 3: Okay, so this has been.
Speaker 5: A Saturday morning. Everything was fine, and then all of
a sudden, my sister was there, My sister, Lauren. She
doesn't want to cause good, right, she was at my house,
and all of a sudden, it was like I just
kept freaking hearing his voice in my head telling me
all this she's liked. Jenny stopped talking to them. Stop
wasn't in a voice or whatever the hell you're doing?
Stopped doing and then.
Speaker 6: Talking about how you know you were listening to the
voice I.
Speaker 8: Was telling her.
Speaker 6: What it was saying is that it was Saturday morning.
Speaker 5: No, if I got here Sunday, it would have been
a Saturday afternoon.
Speaker 2: Now keep in mind, the average person would probably freak
out upon hearing their sibling talking to themselves as if
they're having a conversation. But for Lauren, this was nothing new.
She was no stranger to brushing off the nonsensical ramblings.
She even said to Jenny, stopped talking to those voices
or whatever it is that you're doing. In Lauren's sane mind,
addressing her older sister's mental illness was at the bottom
of the list of priorities. When Jenny's pipes froze and
the trailer descended into chaos, Lauren's first concern was the
safe d of her nieces. Basically, she thought, Okay, Jenny
isn't a danger to herself or them. She's made it
this far in life. Let's just deal with the issues
that we can fix right now, which you know makes
a lot of sense.
Speaker 6: And what did you guys do? Were you guys picking
things up around the house?
Speaker 5: Yeah, they make clean up my house and shit, Okay,
so I've been, I've been. I've been drinking way.
Speaker 8: Too much in my house.
Speaker 3: With a say, what were you guys cleaning it for?
Speaker 13: She said, I was a first six twey call that
was gonna lose my kids. That house was that man,
I mean, it had to be cleaned up. So they
came over to help me clean it up and drinking
I was gonna My sister paid them ten bucks apiece to.
Speaker 5: Help me that day, and I was gonna pick her
back the money that was broke.
Speaker 8: Did were you drinking when they were there?
Speaker 5: I had a couple of beers when they were there.
Speaker 3: How often are you drinking?
Speaker 6: Did you've been drinking a lot with me?
Speaker 8: And how much every day?
Speaker 5: Maybe out like a twelve pack a day, but I
was cutting.
Speaker 13: I was trying to no between the six and a
twelve pack bit okay, usually by natural ice, bea or whatever,
but right shoot, they were helping him over and they
were helped me to do that, and I just started
freaking out. And then after they left it, when fregaging,
I started, actually.
Speaker 6: Do you hear voices any drink?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 13: I don't think I ever had that happened to me
ever in my entire life. It was just like somebody's
freaking right in my fucking head. And it wasn't even
like hearing hearing voices. I could hear it, and it
was like I was reading it at the same time,
if that makes any sense. It wasn't a weird shit
go to this part of the house, on to that
part of the house. What did this part of the
house go to that part of the house.
Speaker 5: It was like all nice and.
Speaker 13: Sweet at first, and then freaking it started getting freaking weird,
and then it just freaking got evil.
Speaker 5: It freaking it's.
Speaker 13: Even telling me, and then I forget started listening to it,
I guess, because then I forget started taking the It
started saying something about freaking people being on Saturday to
coming and kill us and all this weird ship, and
then freaking.
Speaker 5: I'd have to do this or that if I don't
want my kids to die, to do this or that,
and then.
Speaker 13: Freaking after like freaking probably about half hour hour that
forging it finally freaking it told me to get my
kids already and take them down the streets their friend's
house so that they wouldn't die that night, and then
halfway there and said take them back home because they
already they're already killed at their house.
Speaker 6: And did you actually take them down the street?
Speaker 2: Ideah, all of what Jenny is recounting the police that
happened after her sister Lauren left that night.
Speaker 5: I'm still confused. I'm still just like figuring this out.
It was like, what the hell, man, what did I do?
Speaker 13: I actually freaking did that. Oh, it gets weirder, and
this gets really weirder. Forget that all that happened, and
then okay, I find you get back in the house, and.
Speaker 5: I'm like, well, what the hell you know?
Speaker 11: This is just fun.
Speaker 13: Kid's voice told me to whatever boy was told me
to and forget not to go down there because they
were already dead and blah blah, and then told me
to go back to the house and I said, well,
sack in the morning, because then you'll find out they're.
Speaker 5: Not dead, but don't go over there now. And then
blah bah blah and back and forth and back and forth,
and kept.
Speaker 13: Staying stuff about how people would come over there and
kill me and I'd never know it when they finally
broke in the house.
Speaker 6: And so you return to the house with the girls
because the voice tells.
Speaker 5: You, and back and forth.
Speaker 13: And then it was like got nicer again, and it
was like, well, you have to do this, and you
have to do that, you know this, bigger girls to
make them nice, yea. You gotta take care of your
kids and blah blah blah, And then I started getting
evil again.
Speaker 6: Were you gonna put the girls to bed?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 8: I did, or they sleeping on the floor so.
Speaker 13: We were gonna all sleep together on the bedroom because
it was like, well, what whatever, and this voice is
telling me all this weird shit. So we're because we
haven't done this in years because I used to see
about the couch. But then we were gonna freaking sleep
on the bed, so freaking we made up the bed
on the floor in the girl's room and freaking we
were gonna lay out. I actually laid out in the
middle of them. Laf Stoe was on this side of
me and iron her I was I was rubbing her
head and Ashto was on this tight and that was
the same thing with her.
Speaker 6: And we were going to sleep like that.
Speaker 5: We're all like, oh, you got a lot, I have
good dreams, well, blah blah blah.
Speaker 13: And it was all good like that, and then frigging
I got up and the boys started talking to me
again and freaking telling me, this.
Speaker 6: Is asleep at that point when you got up, yeah, okay.
Speaker 13: And frigging I actually went in for a moment. I
hit the bush and Knight bops my neck and I
didn't do that, And then freaking the voice is telling
me to do this and that, and then it's telling
me to go kill my kids before the people break
into my house to kill them, and heard them even
worse than what they were going, what would have happened
or whatever, Just kill them so that it doesn't happen.
Speaker 5: And I wasn't gonna do that. I was just sitting
there going and listen with the freaking thank of my
ain't going, Oh my god, oh my god, oh agad
if anybody go walks in here, motherfucker.
Speaker 2: So the voices and Jennifer's had were apparently telling her
that if she didn't kill her kids, people would break
into your house, take them away from her, and they'd
suffer a fate far worse than death, whatever that is.
At this point, she had long stopped drinking beers, hoping
sobriety would make all of this go away, but it
wasn't working. At first, Jennifer refused to give into the
voices and follow through with the murders. Instead, she put
the butcher knife she grabbed from the kitchen up to
her own throat and considered killing herself. After deciding against that,
she went and sat in the front room, still clutching
the knife and waited for people to arrive. If the
voices were right and someone did break in, she'd be
ready to defend her family. Some time passed, and obviously
nothing happened. The voices were gone too, so, thinking the
whole ordeal was over, she went back and laid in
bed with her girls, eventually falling asleep until morning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, go back to you at seven thirty, you old
come up, put your cold and shoes on.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 13: And then we were gonna go leave, and freaking doesn't
where theyre like, no, freaking we can't leave.
Speaker 8: Whatever blow you're gonna go.
Speaker 13: Do you think I'll across the streets to the payphone
to call my dad for some reason. Okay, I try
to come pick us up because I was like, freaking
so scared. Then we I don't even know if we
went outside.
Speaker 3: I don't remember.
Speaker 5: Before we turned back in and freaking didn't and then
it was like nothing was happening. And then all this done.
I just freaking grabbed the knife and did it all right.
Speaker 6: When that happened, where did you get the knife from?
Speaker 5: I think he was in the kitchen.
Speaker 8: And how did the girls get.
Speaker 3: Back in the bedroom?
Speaker 8: Yeah, and they went back in the bedroom.
Speaker 13: And then we're scared, I know, and who who uh
who went first, Lexa, your younger one, bigger one, the
bigger one.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, she's actually by the way. Actually, I thought,
freaking I'm gonna swear it. I thought I was like
telling him, I I love you. You know you'll never
be heard. Blow, I'll what that happened to you? And
then she's like, can't actually, and it was like okay,
and then I walked out of the freaking bedroom. And
so I can't even believe I said that. I don't
believe I said it. Yeah, I don't believe that. I
must have heard that in my fucking head.
Speaker 6: There's no actually run from the room.
Speaker 5: Yeah, she was in the fleet, hiding under the kitchen table.
Speaker 2: This was clearly difficult for Jennifer talking about what she
did to her own two little girls. You can hear
in the audio that she seems to show some remorse,
but her train of thought keeps getting redirected away from
the worst parts of that morning.
Speaker 6: Did you bring Ashley back in the bedroom?
Speaker 3: Next to walk?
Speaker 9: So?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 8: Did does that where she died?
Speaker 6: Is that where it happened.
Speaker 5: That I think?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 5: I don't take airshleep died until the better?
Speaker 3: Did you?
Speaker 6: Cause it was in the kitchen your your back to
the bedroom.
Speaker 5: Yes, but she was thought she was there in the kitchen,
but I don't think she was. I don't think she better.
Speaker 6: Did you actually stab her in the kitchen?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 8: And how did you stab her?
Speaker 6: Where would she was she on the floor, on the ground,
on her back? Where she's standing on?
Speaker 3: I don't remember.
Speaker 6: Did you stay?
Speaker 5: Maybe I didn't do it in the kitchen.
Speaker 1: That I don't know.
Speaker 6: Okay, but did you you took her back to the
better at some point? Was she fighting you?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't think so.
Speaker 5: She's probably was. I would have, man, fuck you?
Speaker 8: You laid her next to uh to Alexa.
Speaker 3: Was dead at this point?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 6: And when you lay Ashley?
Speaker 8: Was she dead when you lay her next to all
that storry? Did you play her down then.
Speaker 5: Lay down? And I think I made sure team was dead?
Speaker 3: I don't know when you say you made sure she
what did you do?
Speaker 6: See?
Speaker 8: If there's pulp? Can you show me how can you
put the cup down for a second?
Speaker 6: Show me what hand you held a knife in, and
show me.
Speaker 8: How you actually what motions.
Speaker 9: You got it?
Speaker 6: I don't know.
Speaker 5: It's just like dead you were, I think out.
Speaker 6: So you're holding your hand up like this and coming
down with a knife.
Speaker 8: You hold a knife like this or like like this.
Speaker 2: In the footage, the detective shows two different stabbing motions.
The first one he demonstrates is an overhead downward motion,
while the other is an underhanded swiping upwards or the
voice is still.
Speaker 13: Taught to me, when you were doing this, they were
doing this long. I wouldn't freaking leave my house. After
I did it, I actually thought I saved them. And
then I started looking around the house and freaking everything
the voices told me the night before, and the voices
are actually even telling me. I think that freaking they
were going to drive me crazy, so I kill my kids.
And by the morning time and I was like noo.
Speaker 5: At one point, I think, all right, so I don't
remember everything.
Speaker 9: Sometime it was sometimes shortly after seven thirty yesterday morning
when the girls die, right yep?
Speaker 8: Okay? And then and then how long did that the
dogs die? You were cooling?
Speaker 1: Not long.
Speaker 13: I was walking around the house and then kept thinking
about freaking weird shit about I was going to burn
in hell now and demons were gonna come pick me
up from the front of my house. And I'm freaking
red car with fingers and toenails. That's freaking seats, covers
and shit.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 5: It was fuck freaky.
Speaker 13: And all of a sudden it was like the dogs
are still alive, freaking I want to be tortured, he
does one of they drop me down into hell.
Speaker 5: I gotta kill the animals.
Speaker 3: Killed the animals? How to do that? They stuck a
knife in it.
Speaker 5: And just went down and mixture, they were dead?
Speaker 3: Were they on the ground? Were you holding them?
Speaker 5: They were in a green blanket.
Speaker 13: But Angel, the big of them, actually got away and
ran into the kitchen day to chase her down It
for your pet, And I told him it was their
own good.
Speaker 3: And you you put her on a blanket, threw them
in the cage, okay. And then what are the little
ones called the buffies?
Speaker 5: They were.
Speaker 6: Jasmine and.
Speaker 5: What was the other one's saying?
Speaker 3: And they were the offspring of Angel, that was their mindkay.
Speaker 5: I don't know she's she.
Speaker 13: Was full Pomeranian and I don't know what the dad was.
She just got pregnant, okay. And then what about that
mouse in the pet mouse? I had to kill the mouse?
Speaker 3: How did you think that broke it?
Speaker 5: Snack or something.
Speaker 3: Did you try to stab it?
Speaker 2: Probably Jennifer had killed every living being in her small trailer,
her two defenseless girls, three tiny Pomeranians, two of them puppies,
and even the pet mouse. And it wasn't just the
dog she had to chase down to finish the job.
Despite their youngest age, her two daughters knew exactly what
was going to happen, and they tried to get away.
There's nothing I can say to prepare you for this
next part. It is absolutely heartbreaking.
Speaker 9: Just to go back to so I can clarify Alexa
was killed in her bedroom? Was she killed right where
we found her on the floor that little makeshift bent
you as we're sleeping on, okay? And then when while
Alexa was being killed, Ashley ran out of the room
and she ran into the kitchen, run on the table
and she was higher on the table and I pulled
her out. And did you did you stay at her
under the table at all? Did you try it like
to take come out, come out or or how did
you get her out rounder of the table?
Speaker 5: Just grabbed her round and pulled her out?
Speaker 9: I think you grab her am and pulled her out
because there's a little bit of bloo under the table,
So we're wondering did she get stay out her there
at all?
Speaker 5: She got stayed in the bedroom first, and Lexa pushed
me out and pushed her out of the way. And
then I did to Alexa so.
Speaker 8: Bleeding okay, So ash he was bleeding past. Why there's
little bit of blood on the table m hm okay.
Speaker 9: So then once you get Ashley, I'm gonna at the
table and you carry your back to the bedroom mm hm.
Speaker 8: And you laid did she fight more? Did you? Did
you lay her down right next to Alesa and that's
where she died?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 8: Okay? And did she try to get back up and
run again?
Speaker 3: Yes? Okay?
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 2: Throughout this part of the interview, Jennifer with a blanket
over her shoulders, is using it to cover her face.
She's hunched over in her chair, rocking back and fourth.
Speaker 8: Did she say anything to you, Jennifer, I know its sorry.
Did do you call her well, we don't okay. Was
she crying?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 8: What was she saying?
Speaker 6: What was she saying?
Speaker 5: No, no, Mama, don't do it, mom? Just scar as fuck?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 5: All right, okay?
Speaker 8: And how many times do you think he stabbed her?
Speaker 1: I have no it.
Speaker 3: I don't want to know.
Speaker 8: Okay, do you remember how many times you Stabbedshley?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 8: I'm sorry Alsa, No, I don't want to know that either.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 6: Do you remember when when he actually was stabbed the
first time of viting? Throw out of the room.
Speaker 8: Where was she stabbed in the neck the deep wound
or was.
Speaker 6: The skin on dr I don't know.
Speaker 2: Jennifer had used four different large kitchen knives to slay
everyone in the trailer that morning. She ended her daughter's
lives by stabbing them each multiple times in the neck area,
effectively severing their windpipes as well as important arteries besides
the neck wounds, Though there were no defensive injuries, these
poor little girls could even begin to fight off their mother.
All they could do was run and try to find
a hiding spot, But even then Jennifer chased them down.
Speaker 8: Oh have you used narcotics in the past? Like long
your history? Did you use any kind of drugs?
Speaker 5: Nothing? Long term abuse of anything?
Speaker 11: Well?
Speaker 8: What did you use?
Speaker 6: I smoked pot a.
Speaker 5: Few times, have done ASCID a few times?
Speaker 8: Asked how long would you do AD?
Speaker 5: When I was a teenager?
Speaker 8: Okay, But recently have you been using any kind of
street drugs?
Speaker 6: Nothing whatsoever, any kind of prescription drugs? Okay?
Speaker 9: And have you ever seen anybody about any kind of
problems in your head? If you talked to anybody about it,
go see a doctor or not.
Speaker 5: A couple of strengths.
Speaker 13: When I was a kid with this, because I was
getting arrested and stuff, my mama would stopped.
Speaker 6: Taking me and ship.
Speaker 3: Okay, does your mama have some problems my mom?
Speaker 5: My mom has to turn on chizophrenic, manic depressive.
Speaker 2: Through interview Uewing, both Jennifer and her sister Lauren, detectives
were beginning to put the pieces together. Jennifer had been
on a slow path to mental ruin. She had self awareness,
and she knew she was displaying many of the same
odd behaviors her mother had shown as her mental health declined.
This wasn't her first rodeo. Jennifer knew how these things eroded.
She felt herself losing grip on reality, and she had
been desperately trying to hide it. Twenty one year old
Lauren Kookla loved her family. Her biggest concern was making
sure all of the children were safe, well fed, and loved.
To make this kind of life a reality for her
two nieces, eight year old Alexa and five year old Ashley.
This often meant cleaning up her sister's messes. Her oldest sister, Jennifer,
was a functioning alcoholic with constant money problems, and so
those are the issues Lauren often helped to address. These
surface issues paled in comparison to the turmoil happening in
Jennifer's mind. The Kukla family was no stranger to mental illness,
which somewhat blinded Lauren to her sister's worsening mental state.
At the same time, Jennifer was trying to hide her
mental illness. She often became nervous after saying what she
perceived to be the wrong thing, which was basically anything
that might indicate she was losing her mind. Lauren was
so concerned with these surface level issues that Jennifer's feeble
attempts to hide what was actually going on worked. Things
got quietly worse until February four, two thousand and seven,
when Jennifer murdered her two little girls. Apparently, Jennifer's paranoia
and hallucinations reached a peak that weekend, She told psychiatrists
that voices were telling her that if she didn't kill
her children, they'd be kidnapped, sexually abused, tortured, murdered, and
then eaten. In her distorted mind, Jennifer thought slitting their
throats and ending at all quickly was an act of compassion.
It was, from her perspective, the only way she could
save them.
Speaker 3: Have you heard from the voices since and this happened?
Speaker 13: Is that all morning after it happened, I stayed in
the house and I was like I couldn't leave it.
It was like I was sitting there waiting for somebody
to come pick me up to take me straight to house.
Speaker 5: And it was like, no big deal. It was like
it was normal.
Speaker 8: So were you there all day?
Speaker 7: Then?
Speaker 6: Did you leave at any point?
Speaker 5: So go to my car to get to your buttycle?
Right backing up, that was it was.
Speaker 3: Your door I left open all day.
Speaker 13: Why I don't know. It was like freaking I shut
it then the freaking demons would come faster.
Speaker 5: So crap, mm hmmm.
Speaker 3: Where were you at during the day, sitting in the goat?
I think did you go back in the bedroom at all?
Speaker 5: And a couple of times, but couldn't stay back there.
Speaker 3: What did you do?
Speaker 6: There's what's better? She goes, you're better with the girls.
Speaker 5: Oh, and I went back and the after him, and
they had to change my clothes and freaking y'all cleaned up.
For some fucked up reason was that your water wasn't
running like the water like I don't want to toilet,
you know the ok yeah, it was fun.
Speaker 3: I don't know. Okay, when you say you got changed,
what were you wearing that night? And then warm?
Speaker 5: I don't remember dance my sister.
Speaker 2: So after killing her children and all of the pets,
Jennifer stayed in the house with their dead bodies all day.
She paced around until the voices apparently told her to
clean it up with no running water, though, she decided
to take the lid off the toilet tank and use
the water in there to rinse off before replacing her
bloodied clothes with random things scavenged from piles of laundry.
When Lauren came upon the carnage and saw her sister
dressed like a quote hobo, she suddenly realized what had
been happening this whole time. At that moment, Lauren didn't
see her sister. She saw her mother. Jennifer had become
the splitting image of her mother, so her ashes.
Speaker 10: Didn't that day a day at an evening, it'd surprised
to be the union your mom any.
Speaker 6: Acted similar to that. I mean, it was.
Speaker 1: It was surprising, but it was more interesting because when
my mom would do I mean, she wouldn't do stuff
exactly like that.
Speaker 5: She never told me.
Speaker 1: She would just tell me about what happening, right, I mean,
because my mom used to say, I'm I'm a murder.
Speaker 7: Tell me.
Speaker 1: Jenny told me one time that she my mom pulled
over the car right over on our real planking her speedway,
and she said, I'm gonna drama center in my piss.
You know, when she pulled, she pulled her vants down
and she was gonna drown herself in the bed. Don't
even My mom was moliple suicide at times, you know
what I'm saying. Not in front of me, But Jenny said,
you guys are lucky you never had it as bad
as we did. I guess she chased those out of
the backyard with a butcher knife one time, and like
all this stuff, I don't know, I don't remember too young.
I guess, all right, shout it out.
Speaker 5: I have no idea, but.
Speaker 1: She would tell me stuff about make Keith Richards and
when we lost our house, how Keith Richards was gonna
buy it and she was gonna get married to him.
She told me about this guy who was like a
healer and like you know, like she worked.
Speaker 5: He when my grandma was sick of paying for it.
Speaker 3: When did your your day go to prison?
Speaker 5: I was seven person.
Speaker 3: He's still in prison for that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, three years.
Speaker 6: That was your natural father.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sorry, I thought she said the other day
that he was still in person. I wish when's the
last thing that you can take with him?
Speaker 5: Called me that night, Sunday night, after you heard. He
lives right. Me and my husband are separated. Like I said,
he lives three kindos away from my husband's mom.
Speaker 2: I remember, looking back at all the strange things Jennifer
had said and done made so much more sense when
compared to her mother's decline. But hindsight is twenty twenty.
Let's rewind back to when Jennifer became paranoid that the
two people who helped clean up her trailer were going
to call CPS and turn her in.
Speaker 8: She said, I mean she was.
Speaker 1: She talked, I guess briefly to Miss Jessica Carl about
how she she liked Dean Koum's books and.
Speaker 5: Stuff like that, different kinds of like horns, suspense, stuff
like that, and she said that later, is it right,
she said that she.
Speaker 1: She didn't She wishes she didn't say that because she
got those girls probably thinks, or that guy, that girl
probably thinks that she's not for liking those.
Speaker 6: Kinds of books. I mean, that's everything think.
Speaker 1: But because she's like tell them that, you know, I
expect to read those type of books, you know, the
interest pea bla, blah blah.
Speaker 6: And then she said.
Speaker 1: To me that she's starting not to remember, but starting
to understand why she was drinking, why she would have
had a drinking problem.
Speaker 5: Yeah, she said, she understands why she has a drinking problem.
Speaker 2: For us, the people on the outside, it's not at
all surprising that Jennifer suffered from addiction. But in Jennifer's mind,
this all stemmed from her hypnosis as a teenager.
Speaker 5: But it's in some way, hello, hi, in some way
connected to the hypnotism. What she didn't that information to me?
Speaker 8: She said that she told al that.
Speaker 1: She knew biker crews like Vigilies or you know that.
She didn't say Vigulines, but that family looked like I've
ever heard of that life. So by stuff like that
that she was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Real,
which I know is a bossed Djenko and was also
the owner of part owner of TJ's.
Speaker 5: Were she worked at a golf course for a couple
of years, senter and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: She said that he.
Speaker 1: She wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if
she if she would go there, and if she was
actually doing the work that you know that they She
told me she was like a bartender and a cook
and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it.
Speaker 5: She's thinking that she was very watchington, thinking she was
doing that kind of work when really she was doing
something else.
Speaker 1: She says that that was like a lapse in her brain.
She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life.
She asked me if I remembered her.
Speaker 3: This was all Sara Ray.
Speaker 5: She said, I think Lauren that I used to kill people,
and I said I really.
Speaker 6: I literally wrote it off.
Speaker 1: As her just being either drunk or me not recognizing
it as an issue. Like she was saying it almost
not in a joking manner, but not to where it's like, Lauren,
I think I used to kill people. You need to,
you know, help me or something. You know what, I
think she used to kill people.
Speaker 5: I'm like, Jenny, you know what are you where are
you getting this one? And she's like, I don't know.
I just she's like, I don't understand.
Speaker 6: I don't remember. I don't remember.
Speaker 1: And then she said she said, like I don't remember
that like three times, you know, in a row. And
then she said I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny,
you know, and I remember growing up like she used
to have like I know, it sounds stupid, but she
used to do like candle things in her room and
like she walk around on the can like you know
what I'm saying, like weird.
Speaker 6: Shit like that like sands almost type yeah, like.
Speaker 1: The sayans er like a demonic something or other. But
I mean she at that time, I know that she
had had some experiences with drugs. I don't know what
because I was nine years younger, but I know, I mean,
my mom boss a pot in the house. She found
plants and she threw them against the wall because they
were all in the base of the kids. Me and
my old my Lizzie shared room upstairs for a while.
And then when my dad started raping the kids, like
right before Jenny turned like ten or something, twelve, I
don't know, he made the bedrooms downstairs for them. So
it was almost like there, like I mean they were
they weren't finished. There was tile on the floor, but
it was like they were drywall and stuff like that.
They had separate rooms, and Lizzie was in this room,
Joey was in the middle, and then Jenny was at
the far end, and she used to come and seek
boys and stuff like that, and they do I mean
Matt message, the one that Lizzie is Lizzie's fiance.
Speaker 5: Now, I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever.
Speaker 6: I didn't know, and I wouldn't tell my mom.
Speaker 1: Because they would tellt me to shut up, and they
tell me not to come downstairs all the time because
there was.
Speaker 5: There was stuff under this.
Speaker 1: I think they were trying to keep me away from
whatever they were doing. There was stuff under the stairs.
There was fixed spiders, there was go sweat uver, you
know what I'm.
Speaker 5: Saying, and I literally I really believed that they, even.
Speaker 1: If they weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves,
you know what I mean, to where they thought that
this was real.
Speaker 5: You know, or at least maybe she'd lived with that.
Speaker 3: She used to couch like.
Speaker 1: She remember the time she cut slayer into her arm,
and I was like, is that me out with a
band and she was into heavy metal and she's like no,
and she's like, I didn't even do that, you know.
And I can remember Rember her, not not that time,
but I remember her catting her legs and cutting her
arms and stuff like that, and my mom would send
her to the counselor.
Speaker 6: But because my mom was.
Speaker 1: Emotionally disturbed as well, and she had her own bipolar ecaust,
her friend here or whatever, she would take them out
because in her mind, counselors and stuff like that were bad.
You know, police were good, always, police were good. The
counselors were bad. Teachers were bad. They didn't know what
they were teaching you, They didn't know what they you know,
all this stuff. And she would say that they're gathering
information on us. They want they want us, they want us,
they want us. She would say that we're like Christ's bloodline.
She knew Christ's descendants where you know, all this stuff,
and that's what I had to go around.
Speaker 6: I mean, I got past it.
Speaker 8: I'm working.
Speaker 6: I mean, I worked through it.
Speaker 5: I understand that she had an illness, but I know
it sounds really bad on my part. Growing up with
my mom the way that she was, you.
Speaker 3: Were used to that kind.
Speaker 6: I was used to it, and I had never thought
that she would hurt anybody because my mom, because you'd
been exposed.
Speaker 5: Right and right, it didn't at all.
Speaker 1: And I mean, I've been working through that. But at
the same time, I my foster was like, how would
you know that that she was gonna, you know, hurt anybody?
Speaker 5: And She's like, she said that anything that Jenny could
have said.
Speaker 1: I mean, if we roll right off my back at
the stake, that I amn't right now, so it did,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 5: And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for
me to get past my past with my mom. Hard
for me to even say that.
Speaker 1: I can't believe what she was telling me about knowing
Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was
my mom when I.
Speaker 5: Was conditioned might entell your life to believe that she
was telling me the true. Sure, that's my mom, you know.
So when Jenny tells me this stuff, I think.
Speaker 1: What if Mom, I don't I don't want to say
that I'm I don't want to feel like you or
you guys think that I'm crazy.
Speaker 5: But what if you know, maybe this is you know,
my mom, not my mom telling her.
Speaker 1: This stuff, but like maybe something my mom said it
was true. Maybe you know, we are she was special
or Jenny is special. That's why she tried to protect
her before, you.
Speaker 6: Know, And that's why my mom had to be put
on meds.
Speaker 1: Was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny
would know the same thing or be able to do
the same thing or whatever. I don't know, you know
what I'm saying. And I thought it was some kind
of religious believe that they both shared or something.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I can problem, but it's in some way hell of high,
in some way connected to the hypnotism.
Speaker 3: What does she think hypnotizement?
Speaker 5: She didn't that information to me. She said that she
told all that she knew biker crews like Virgilies or
you know, she did that.
Speaker 1: She didn't say Vigeline's, but the family looked like for
I've ever heard in her life so like stuff.
Speaker 5: Like that that she was affiliating with them.
Speaker 1: She said that Jim Reel, which I know is a
bossed that Didjenko and was also the owner of her
part owner of TJ's where she worked at.
Speaker 5: A golf course for a couple of years, you know,
seeing her and stuff like that.
Speaker 4: She said that he.
Speaker 1: She wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if
she if she would go there, and if she was
actually doing the work that you know that they She
told me she was like a bartender and a cook
and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it.
She's thinking that she was very watchington, thinking she was
doing that kind of work when really she was doing
something else. She said that was like a lapse in
her brain. She doesn't understand what happened at that time
in her life.
Speaker 5: She asked me if I remembered her this was all
starry night. She she said, I think, Lauren, that I
used to kill people, And I said I really.
Speaker 6: I literally wrote it off.
Speaker 1: As her just being either drunk or me not recognizing
it as an issue, like she was saying it almost
not in a joking manner.
Speaker 6: But.
Speaker 5: Not to where it's like, Lauren, I think I used
to kill people. You need to, you know, help me
or something. You know what she was, and I think
she used to kill people. I'm like, Jenny, you know,
what are you where are you getting this from? And
she's like, I don't know. I just she's like, I
don't understand.
Speaker 6: I don't remember. I don't remember.
Speaker 1: And then she said, she said, like I don't remember
that like three times, you know, in a row. And
then she said, I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny,
you know, and I remember growing up like she used
to have like I know it sounds stupid, but she
used to do like candle things in her room and
like she walk around the camp like you know what
I'm saying, like mirrd shit like that.
Speaker 6: Like sands almost type yeah, like a sing as or.
Speaker 1: Like a demonic something or other. But I mean she
at that time, I know that she had had some
experiences with drugs. I don't know what because I was
nine years younger, but I know, I mean my mom
boss a pot in the house. She found plants and
she threw them against the wall because they were all
in the basement. The kids, me and my old my
Lizzie shared room upstairs for a while. And then when
my dad started raping the kids, like right before Jenny
turned like ten or something, twelve, I don't know, he
made the bedrooms downstairs for them. So it was almost
like they're like, I mean they were they weren't finished.
There was tile on the floor, but it was like
they were drywall and stuff like that. They had separate rooms,
and Lizzie was in this room, Joey was in the middle,
and then Jenny was at the fire end. And she
used to come and seek boys and stuff like that,
and they do I mean Matt Vessige, the one that
is Lizzie's fiance now.
Speaker 5: And like I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever.
Speaker 1: I didn't know, and I wouldn't tell my mom because
they would tell me to shut up, and they tell
me not to come downstairs all the time because there
was there was stuff under I think they were trying
to keep me away from whatever they were doing. There
was stuff under the stairs. There was fixed spiders, there
was go sweat up you know what I'm saying. And
I literally I really believe that they even if they
weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves, you
know what I mean to where they thought that this
was real, you know, or at least maybe she'd live
with that. She used to cut, like she remember one
time she cut slayer into her arm and I was like,
is that me out with a band? And she was
into heavy metal and she's like no, and she's like,
I didn't even do this, you know. And I can
remember her not that time, but.
Speaker 6: I remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms.
Speaker 5: And stuff like that, and my mom would send her
to the counselor.
Speaker 1: But because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well, and
she had her own bipolar schizophone air or whatever, she
would take them out because in her mind, counselors and
stuff like that were bad. You know, police were good, always,
please were good. The counselors were bad. Teachers were bad.
They didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't
know what they you know, all this stuff. And she
would say that they're gathering information on us. They want
they want us, they want us, they want us. She
would say that we're like Christ's bloodline. She knew Christ's
descendants where you know, all this stuff, and that's what
I had to go around. I mean, I got pasted it.
Speaker 5: I'm working. I mean, I worked through it. I understand
that she had an illness.
Speaker 1: But.
Speaker 5: I know it sounds really bad on my part, But
growing up with my mom the way that she was.
Speaker 6: You were used to that.
Speaker 5: I was used to it, and I'd never thought that
she would hurt anybody because my mom.
Speaker 6: Never alarmed me. Because you've been explosed right and.
Speaker 5: Right, it didn't at all. And I mean, I've been
working through that. But at the same time, I mean my.
Speaker 1: Fast was like, how would you know that she was gonna,
you know, hurt anybody? And She's like, she said that
anything that Jenny could have said. I mean, if we
grow right off my back at the state that I
amn't right now, so it did, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 5: And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for
me to get past my past.
Speaker 1: With my mom for me to even say that, I
can't believe what she was telling me about knowing Keith
Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was my
mom when I was conditioned my entire her life to
believe that she was telling me the true.
Speaker 6: Sure, that's my mom, you know.
Speaker 5: So when Jenny tells me this stuff.
Speaker 1: I think, what if Mom, I don't I don't want
to say that I'm I don't want to feel like
you or you guys think that I'm crazy. But what
if you know, maybe this is you know, my mom,
not my mom telling her this stuff. But like maybe
something my mom said it us true. Maybe you know
we are She was special or Jenny is special. That's
why she tried to protect her before, you know, And
that's why my mom had to be put on METS.
Was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny
would know the same thing or be able to do
the same thing or whatever.
Speaker 5: I don't know, you know what I'm saying. And I
thought it was some kind of religious belief that they
both shared or something.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Their mother's unchecked mental illness had set the stage. Jennifer's
life was a perfect storm, and she knew.
Speaker 3: It well, she need to know anything else you can
think of. It bought a soul incident, and so now
we should have heard you.
Speaker 13: She lived in my mom's moth, she cycle mixture, even
due to nobody else don't want it.
Speaker 5: And there it is.
Speaker 2: Hearing these final words is haunting her admission. I should
have never had kids. It's not just a regret, it's
the very moment of Jennifer's realization about the generational cycle
of trauma and mental illness. She saw an experience the
fallout of her own mother's struggle, lived through it, and
yet found herself walking down a similar path, trapped by
the very symptoms she once feared. Jennifer was raised by
someone incapable of loving, protecting, and caring for her in
the way every child deserves. This was a parent who
not only failed to protect, but often directly exposed them
to traumatic experiences. After living through that trauma, this same
parent deterred her children from seeking mental health services. Perhaps
Jennifer was set up to fail from the very start.
In September of two thousand and seven, about seven months
after the tragic murder's, thirty year old Jennifer Kukla went
to trial for two counts of first degree murder. Three
separate psychologists testified on her behalf, stating that she was
legally insane at the time of the killings and therefore
not criminally responsible. They felt she should be found guilty
by reason of insanity and placed in a psychiatric facility.
The jury, though, didn't buy it. They cited the feeble
attempt at suicide, the inconsistencies in Jennifer's police interview compared
to her psych interviews, and even witnessed testimony from her
employer who remembered Jennifer saying she could just kill her
kids during a conversation about being late for work because
of them. To top it off, even if Jennifer had
been suffering an acute psychotic episode that day, under Michigan law,
if that episode is triggered by drinking alcohol, it's not
a defense. The jury rendered a guilty verdict while also
acknowledging the obvious mental illness. She was sentenced to life
in prison without the possibility of parole, but with the
promise that she would receive at least some mental health care.
The police officers who responded to the gruesome scene, we'll
never get the image out of their heads. Jennifer asked
for her brain to be erased, and I'm sure those
officers wish for the very same thing. They remember seeing
the two little girls laying side by side in their
small bedroom surrounded by their toys, their books, their artwork,
and even photos of them smiling with their mom. One
deputy said this, you can only imagine their lifestyle. You
could see that they didn't have much, but what they
did have they seemed to appreciate. They seemed like they
were happy, cute girls. You have to try hard not
to think about it rationally. That was an irrational act.
Speaker 3: You never let it go.
Speaker 2: All right, I'll tell you one little thing. The show
that's coming up is called this doesn't happen to people
like me. I know it's a very long title. Anyway,
go find it on Apple and Spotify and subscribe.
Speaker 8: Do it now.
Speaker 2: I will say one more thing, because I know how
you people operate. Yes, the show will be available on
Plus commercial free of course, and it's gonna be on
every tier as well, so no more mix ups. But
you do help us out tremendously still by subscribing on Apple.
Speaker 3: And Spotify. Replicated st