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Speaker 1: Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is

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not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advice said,

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I'm going to the defense of how as she said,

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it's all over now and it's done.

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Speaker 2: Does a new show come in? So stick around after

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the music and you'll find out more. This is season two,

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episode two hundred and eighty two of Sword and Scale.

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So that reveals that the worst monsters.

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Speaker 3: Are real.

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Speaker 2: Well, I lie not about the show that's coming up.

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It is coming up, but about telling you about the

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show that's coming up. Because I'm not going to tell

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you anything. I'm going to keep it a secret this time.

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You're not going to find out a damn thing until

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it comes out. March third. In a family where chaos rains,

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it's easy to lose sight of the cracks forming beneath

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the surface. Born into a world of addiction, mental illness,

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and unspeakable secrets, one can grow so accustomed to the

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madness that it becomes invisible. Each day brings a new crisis,

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new fire to put out, and amidst the smoke and shadows,

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it's impossible to notice the creeping darkness closing in the

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familiar feels like survival until it's not. Like the proverbial

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frog sitting in a pot of water, the rising heat

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goes unnoticed. There's too much to manage, calming the parents'

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paranoid delusions, steering a sibling away from another destructive path,

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trying to hold it all together. The storms are so

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familiar that they barely register anymore, and while tending to

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each fresh disaster, something far more dangerous is below. It's

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a slow, insidious bubbling, and before there's any time to escape,

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the water has reached a dangerous boil. In two thousand

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and seven, twenty one year old Lauren Kukla found herself

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shouldering the full responsibility of her family's physical and emotional

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well being. Though she had small children of her own,

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their needs aren't what I'm talking about here. Lauren was

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not only caring for her immediate household, but also managing

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the endless conflicts between her late schizophrenic mother and her

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four older siblings, none of whom could seem to get

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their lives together for some reason. Conveniently, they all lived

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in the same area near McComb, Michigan, and Lauren was

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stuck carrying a burden far beyond her years. Though her

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siblings houses were chaotic, messy, and filled with conflict, Lauren's

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house was different. Though she was young, she and her

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family lived a white picket fence kind of life. Compared

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to her two older sisters and two older brothers. Her

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sister Elizabeth or Lizzie was on drugs and had already

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lost custody of her children, and her sister, thirty year

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old Jennifer or Jenny, the oldest of all the siblings,

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was walking that same tightrope. How Lauren turned out to

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be a normal, functioning member of society after growing up

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in a household like this is really a mystery. On Saturday,

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February third, two thousand and seven, all while trying to

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juggle her career and her young children's needs, Lauren got

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a call from Jenny. As usual, her oldest sister was

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having a meltdown and needed help.

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Speaker 4: He had told me that she believed that Elizabeth Koukla

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or Lowry, I'm sorry, her sister and Lisa Fabric that

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they were growing up as that may be, had led

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her to believe that they were.

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Speaker 5: Going to have her kids taken away. They were going

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to call the CPS.

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Speaker 1: As far as I know, at that time that was

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a truthful statement, was he denied it When I went

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to her up to her place at Portant later at

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that time, I could see her saying something like that

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because she said it to me before twenty times in

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the past couple of years. She said she hates Jack,

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she wished that she would just clean up her ant and.

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Speaker 6: Blah blah blah whatever.

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Speaker 1: Because Lizzie got her kids taken away, she thought that

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she was fighting for them, but she wasn't fighting.

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Speaker 5: For them because she was always doing crack and shit

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like that, so she.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't really working at it, but she wanted anybody to

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believe that she couldn't, so now she wants I could

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see her wanning.

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Speaker 5: Some kind of revenge or wanting Jenny to feel the

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same pain as her.

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Speaker 2: Lizzie wasn't threatening to report Jenny to CPS because she

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was genuinely concerned about her nieces. She just hated her

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sister and wanted to see Jenny lose her kids too.

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Speaker 5: Nice right, You could hear that she was afraid that

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her kids may be taken away. She wanted to make

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sure that they were You know, do you believe.

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Speaker 3: She sounded an entax kids No, I didn't.

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Speaker 5: I didn't hear.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Jenny was an alcoholic k as is, so

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I couldn't tell the difference either way, you know what

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I mean? She wasn't stupid drunk kid by the time. Okay,

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so and she called it did know that she You

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could tell that she just wanted to make sure that

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the girls were I mean that the house was taken

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care of.

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Speaker 5: He because she did not want to lose her because

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she was concerned.

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Speaker 2: The whole family knew Jenny was an alcoholic, but her

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habits had gotten worse over the prior months. Finances were tight,

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and she was spending any extra money she had on

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beer and all of her free time drinking it. The kids,

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three dogs, the pet mouse, none of them were being

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cared for properly, and the trailer they lived in was

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an absolute disaster, as you can imagine. To top it

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all off, they didn't even have running water.

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Speaker 3: How long were the pape was frozen for?

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Speaker 1: She had said something to me on Thursday about it.

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Speaker 6: So just a few.

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Speaker 1: Days and everything worked, the heat worked and everything is that.

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The furnace broke the day before in Ale came.

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Speaker 5: It fixed it that day.

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Speaker 2: Al was Jenny's boyfriend you lived nearby and the two

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were still friends.

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Speaker 6: They were waiting that trailer on her own with.

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Speaker 1: For the most part, yes, there was I think there

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was one time in the spring that she had her

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gas turned off and she called me. It was after

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it was it was fall, because my mom had already

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passed away. She called me and she said, said, you

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got to call grandma. And now I'm going to go

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between between Grandma.

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Speaker 6: Because I took it.

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Speaker 1: Upon myself to make sure everything was, you know, taking

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care of with my mom and taking care of his grandma.

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Everybody kind of looked at me as the one people

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would help them if they needed something from Grandma. So

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she asked me, I need money for rent, any money

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to fix the car.

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Speaker 6: I need money to get my license back, any.

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Speaker 5: Money to you know, all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I like, I think it was you got to

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get clean. You're drinking, you know when I can help you.

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And Grandma was like, I wish I didn't give her

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a lecture. I said, you have to give her lecture

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every time, althoughay, she doesn't know how you fail. Grandma,

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I said, no, this is your fault, you know, And

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I just she did have a shut off all the times,

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but not to the extent where the girls didn't have

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anywhere else to go or you know, couldn't take care.

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Speaker 5: Of themselves and stuff. And they always had food enough

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frigs and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: So unfortunately, food in the fridge is not the only

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criteria CPS looks for when deciding whether a home is

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safe for children. It looked like Jenny might actually get

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a visit from a social worker, and it wouldn't be

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the first time CPS had taken her kids before, but

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she knew that if it happened again, she might not

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be able to get them back. Lauren didn't want to

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be at her family's beck and call. She knew Jenny's

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situation was largely because of her own unwillingness to get

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help for her alcoholism and whatever else was going on

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in her drama filled life. Her chief concern were her

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two nieces, Jenny's eight year old daughter Alexa apologies if

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I just activated your devices at home and five year

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old daughter Ashley. So Lauren, the family crisis manager that

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she was, gathered some friends, a guy named Russell and

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a woman named Jessica. She offered them ten bucks for

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their time and drove them over to her sister's house

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to help her clean it up.

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Speaker 1: So then I went to Ale's house to pick her up,

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and she who's al vander Boss, which just the man

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whether where she was at. He lives in trailer park

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as well. Yeah, like they're all with them, their two

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black ladies. So I drove over there after. I asked Russell,

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I have Jessica. They wanted to make tech box. I

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asked Stacy too, but she.

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Speaker 5: Said she didn't want to go in the house because

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she knows too dirty.

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Speaker 3: She wanted to with that. Okay, so you picked up

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any of the two kids.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I picked up Jennifer.

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Speaker 1: I think the kids stayed there with Ale and I

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had Russell or Duska in the car with me.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So he picked up Jennifer at vander Boss.

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Speaker 5: I think that's in the statement. I think you made

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a boss.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure main or Voss and that she boyfriend just.

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Speaker 6: As boyfriend still friends kind of.

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Speaker 3: Oh, Jenny man, okay, Uh, kids kids were lost there.

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Speaker 5: She got in the car, she was acting fine. She

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just said, you know, let's go right now, we'll get

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it's done. And I said, okay, Jenny, you know we

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have a couple of hours or whatever we've been done.

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She was, she was upset. I remember her saying something.

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She was upset because she thinks Lisa.

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Speaker 6: And Livedsey were gonna call.

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Speaker 3: Where did she she said?

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Speaker 1: She said that when she was over at Elizabeth's house

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earlier that day, she was on the phone with Lisa,

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Lisa had told her something that triggered a memory.

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Speaker 7: Of how.

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Speaker 1: It's possible that she may have been hypnotized into being

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a bad person.

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Speaker 3: And that like sypathized Jennifer.

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Speaker 1: She said that she Lisa said something that triggered a

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memory of some kind into her realizing that she may

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have been hypnotized.

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Speaker 2: During her teenage years, Jenny was probably grasping its straws,

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trying to find reasons why her life turned out as

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terribly as it did and why she couldn't seem to

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be a good parent like her little sister Lauren. See

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I wonder why being you know, hypnotized is an answer

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that takes the blame off of Jenny herself. It's one

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of the things that alcoholics do. Just trust me on that.

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Though she wasn't actually hypnotized, Jenny hadn't had an easy life. Sure,

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her situation was a result of her own decisions, but

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decisions are often influenced by past experiences, and Jenny's life

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had been rather traumatic.

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Speaker 6: Jenny always had problems.

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Speaker 5: She believed that she was worth us.

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Speaker 8: She believed, I mean, she.

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Speaker 1: Was raped and everything else from moun didn't take care

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of her, you know her like our mom, I meant

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a lot. And she probably thought, you know, for some reason,

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I'm not being taken care of because you know, my

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mom brought this horrible man into her life.

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Speaker 6: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 5: Like she just she just kept getting different kinds of

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thoughts about that.

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Speaker 7: So when back to you told me the day you're

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you're a natural father was convicted of rape of Jennifer.

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Speaker 3: And work at what age, like how old? I think

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it was a very long period of time.

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Speaker 5: I think from like twelve to fifteen.

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Speaker 3: Twelve to fifteen.

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Speaker 1: She was molested from Joseph, her father's brother, Robert. He's

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actually impaired. She told me that he molested her as

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well growing up in the younger ages that the neighbor

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at the residents that I live in now, one of

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the old neighbors that live there, like their nephew or something.

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Speaker 5: Lest year as well. She was very.

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Speaker 1: Just I mean walking down the street kind of thing.

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She told me before my other sister I'm refer she

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was raped. She pulled into a van.

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Speaker 9: Right.

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Speaker 2: Even after a childhood full of abuse, Jenny managed to

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pull something of a life together. She had full custody

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of her two young daughters, had a place for them

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to live, and worked as a manager for McDonald's. She

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wasn't addicted to hard drugs like her sister Lizzie, but

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alcoholism can be more difficult to beat because it's normalized

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in society. I mean, try going out, just going out

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on the weekend. Try to do something and not be

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around alcohol. It's impossible. Plus, you know, no one gives

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you a side eye if they see you sipping on

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a can of beer. How would they know it's your

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twelfth drink. On the other hand, if you have a

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needle hanging out of your arm, like a lot of

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the residents of Portland, someone might actually call the cops

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on you. Probably not a Democrat though. Anyways, Lauren, Jenny

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and their posse of helpers arrived at the trailer and

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got to work.

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Speaker 3: So, yes, you guys wanted to get bottles from now

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The whole time the kids weren't here.

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Speaker 5: No, the whole time, the kids were at Al's house.

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Speaker 1: And Jenny told me, go pick up some more beer

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from ails and bring it back before you go to

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the store.

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Speaker 5: And we went to Ale's house and I grabbed the beers.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and how many you guys we some before that

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I didn't have it. They didn't have any.

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Speaker 5: She Al has said that she had some before, and

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I don't really know. And she had some at her

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house too, and she drank a couple hover cleaning for

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the first hour and a.

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Speaker 1: Half or with that, we went to turn all the

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bottles that she had, I mean, she had some in

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her shut she had on her sanksha all the house.

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Speaker 5: So we were trying to clear the clutter make some

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money for garbage bags like balbs. Water. The pipes were frozen,

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so we could you know, pet it up her wash forever.

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And so we went to the store. We came back

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and we just continued to clean.

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Speaker 3: And she were still alone and came back.

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Speaker 5: Well, like I said, we'd forgotten to bring her that beer.

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So she was really happy when we got back because

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she had her beer again. My mother serxture, you get

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something we brought her some more beer, and at that

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time we just finished up cleaning. Jessica was.

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Speaker 1: Getting lazy, playing with the dogs or whatever. And then

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me and Russell were in the girls better finishing out.

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Speaker 5: Vacuum and stuff.

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Speaker 1: And then I went and did the bathroom myself and

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did the me and Russell did the back better, and

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Jenny was doing the kitchen and addish and stuff, trying.

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Speaker 5: To get everything out of the kitchen.

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Speaker 2: At this point, Jenny was becoming more paranoid with each beer.

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After the others left, Jenny confided in her sister that

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she feared they too would call CPS on her since

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they had seen the state of the house firsthand.

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Speaker 1: Josica might know because I know she and he was

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afraid that Jessica was going to call the CPS because

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of something that she said, which.

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Speaker 5: I don't know what she said. I have no idea.

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She's like, she's like, you know they're going to call there.

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You know they probably think, you know, horrible mom and

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all this stuff, and I don't.

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Speaker 6: Jeffer was afraid was going to yah.

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Speaker 5: She was afraid Russell and jess.

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Speaker 6: We're going to call too.

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Speaker 5: I said, why would they do that? One they were

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here helping, you know, and she was afraid that they

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were going to do something too.

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Speaker 6: So I'm like, I mean, did they did either wrestle

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or just never better call CPS?

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 5: And in fact, in the car when we were going

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to alehouse and I told her that she was afraid, she.

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Speaker 1: Goes, she told me not to tell you guys, But

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I was like, you're not going to call the CPS, right,

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And Jessica's like, no, you know.

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Speaker 5: I'm taking away from my mom too.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: She's like, you know I got taken away from my

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mom too, and you know I would never do that

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to you, and you know, I want to help these kids.

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Speaker 3: This was on the way to wils to.

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Speaker 5: Pick up the girl.

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Speaker 1: She was telling me this stuff, and Jenny had told

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me right before we left, like they were getting the

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car and she was like, just make sure they don't

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call her, and I think she was really fearful that

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they would have called.

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Speaker 6: So you guys left to go with the girls. Yeah,

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and brought the girls back.

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Speaker 1: We left to go get the girls and I helped

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them to start get ready, and all of a sudden,

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Jenny showed up. Yeah, she ran she's two streets away,

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and she got that's kind of weird to me because

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she thought we'd left the cell phone there, which I asked,

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asked her if that cell phone twice was hers, because

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I knew she lost hers.

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Speaker 5: But I know she had a boost mobile and this

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was a motor roll up. In fact, the phone is

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in my car right now.

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Speaker 1: But I said, you know, I don't know where that

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phone came from, and she's like, I was, like, I

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moved it, I put it on it on the end

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table like three times, Jenny, I even asked you if

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it was yours, and she's like, oh.

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Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, but why don't she went over there?

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Speaker 6: The phone phone right back.

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Speaker 5: And it's possible as I didn't turn it on or anything.

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It doesn't turn on, but I'm sure it works.

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Speaker 1: But it just seems it strikes me, as I that

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she would run all the way over there, even though

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we were taking the kids back there, you know what

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I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: So, just to summarize all that, Lauren and the others

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left Jenny at the trailer while they went to pick

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up Jenny's two daughters, Alexa and n Ashley. Jenny must

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have been suspicious that they were conspiring against her to

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help CPS take away the kids, and literally ran several

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blocks to the house the girls were staying at under

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the guise of returning a cell phone.

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Speaker 1: So I think that she was even fearful at that

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time that I would try to take the kids, and

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which I don't understand, but whatever. So we Jenny got

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in the back and I have the third l sitting

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station wag and she got on the back with Lexa.

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The first thing she said when she opened the back

359
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and I was already in the car and actually was

360
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in I have a like a booster seat for her.

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This was big enough for my daughter and big enough

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for her. And she's like, Lauren, why would you ask

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Lexa if she does if she even liked me.

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Speaker 5: I'm like, I didn't say that. And I was like, Lexa,

365
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:47,440
did you ask her?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 1: Like I was being complex, like how you talk to kids,

368
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you know, and she's like, she's just quiet, you know,

369
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she didn't say anything. And then she's like, Jenny goes,

370
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,640
are you lying, Lexa? And you know, not angry, not angry.

371
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Speaker 6: She was more concerned for you know, why she would

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lie to her?

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Speaker 1: And and I said, Jenny, I didn't say that, And

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I said, I talked to him earlier this week when

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they were at my house, and I said that, you know,

376
00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:11,599
mama tries her boss, you know.

377
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,519
Speaker 5: And that was the end of the conversation. And we

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00:20:14,759 --> 00:20:16,200
drove home and the kids were just.

379
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Speaker 6: Saying, what about did Lesa actually ask her?

380
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Speaker 8: I don't her.

381
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Speaker 5: I wasn't. I mean, I got into there was.

382
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Speaker 6: Never any answer to the question because you asked her.

383
00:20:23,759 --> 00:20:26,920
She never answered question. Jenny asked her. Lexa never answered,

384
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:27,880
never answered the question.

385
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,759
Speaker 5: But I know she was quiet, and Lexi had a

386
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tendency to do stuff like that, just.

387
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,079
Speaker 1: Kind of tattle or like say, you know, mix up

388
00:20:36,079 --> 00:20:38,640
the words or something, and that Jenny would get, not upset,

389
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,839
but she would get like like why why do you

390
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,480
have to you have to lie any kind of.

391
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Speaker 5: Thing, you know. And so we drove home.

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Speaker 1: Everything was fine, and we were you know, I had

393
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the radio on whatever. But she opened the door and

394
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she went in, and then the girls, you know, they

395
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went in right ahead of me.

396
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Speaker 5: I don't know how we got mixed up with anyway.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, no, stop because they weren't taking

398
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off their shoes and stuff. I was showing on the

399
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door to take off their shoes to put their colts

400
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:01,960
and stuff, you know, and I said.

401
00:21:01,839 --> 00:21:03,319
Speaker 6: They're like, wow, they're looking around.

402
00:21:03,319 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 1: They're all excited because the house was so much cleaner

403
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,480
than it was before, like literally three hundred times better, right,

404
00:21:08,759 --> 00:21:11,680
And I mean even I probably weren't used to have

405
00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:13,319
a place to hang the coats and the right, but

406
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,200
they weren't used to and they yearned.

407
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Speaker 5: So I don't want to cry, but they yarn so bad.

408
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 1: They have that kind of home, that home when they

409
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ran at my house and stuff, they knew, they knew

410
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the difference.

411
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Speaker 5: They were playing with my kids on and said Thursday night,

412
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they love it.

413
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Speaker 3: You know.

414
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,519
Speaker 5: I was teaching her how to wash from top to

415
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bottom in the bath pen of thing, you know what,

416
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,680
you have to rinse it all out.

417
00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 1: Lost. I was in there, you know, lost the night

418
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,559
and brushing my teeth and stuff. I was like, you

419
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,119
got to get ready for bed, you have to, you know.

420
00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:36,079
I was just thinking, to my hand, how does she

421
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,160
not know this stuff at you know, almost nine years

422
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:39,200
old and she doesn't know how to.

423
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,079
Speaker 5: Take care of her own body. Well, I mean, yeah,

424
00:21:43,079 --> 00:21:44,359
I know the frozen pipes.

425
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 2: But other than that, I mean, other than the frozen pipes.

426
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,119
The group had successfully gotten the trailer up to par

427
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,119
Lauren thought she'd fixed the problem. Surely Jenny had no

428
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,680
reason to be concerned anymore. Lauren went home that night

429
00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:03,440
to take care of her own household and planned to

430
00:22:03,559 --> 00:22:06,279
check in on Jenny and her kids the very next day,

431
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,839
right after her shift at the local family restaurant. She

432
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,400
expected to see Jenny lounging around, enjoying the day with

433
00:22:14,519 --> 00:22:20,759
her girls and their newly clean trailer. Lauren certainly hadn't

434
00:22:20,839 --> 00:22:59,240
pictured herself dialing nine one one. Twenty one year old

435
00:22:59,319 --> 00:23:03,640
Lauren Kukla had just cleaned up another family crisis. One

436
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,519
of her sisters, Lizzie, had already lost custody of her children,

437
00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:09,960
and her oldest sister, Jennifer, was about to meet the

438
00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:13,839
same fate. That was, until Lauren rallied a group together

439
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,680
to help Jennifer tidy up her house in preparation for

440
00:23:16,759 --> 00:23:21,720
a CPS visit. The next day, Sunday, February fourth, Lauren

441
00:23:21,799 --> 00:23:24,359
planned to drive over and check in on her sister,

442
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,759
but she was wholly unprepared for what she'd find.

443
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 3: She worked what time eleven or time I worked from ten?

444
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 1: I was there at nine fifty to all the way

445
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to five o'clock five fifteen.

446
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 2: After work, Lauren picked up her kids and drove over

447
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,079
to Jenny's trailer to check in. When she got there,

448
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,400
the front door was hanging open. This immediately struck Lauren

449
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:54,240
as odd. After all, it was winter in Michigan.

450
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 5: I pulled up up, you know, I called the name

451
00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:58,920
because the door was open.

452
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Speaker 8: Like I said, she called her name.

453
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: I called her name, and I was on the phone

454
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,599
with my friend Jason at the time, telling them all

455
00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:06,480
about how, you know, how my sister is being annoying

456
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,920
us like or whatever, you know, and how she's pissing

457
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:09,119
me out.

458
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 5: So I'm going over there right now to see if

459
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:11,920
she can find her phone in my car or whatever.

460
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,039
Speaker 1: And he's like, I'm like, okay, hold on one second,

461
00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:17,160
because the door is open and all the lights are off.

462
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 5: He's like okay. And then I call her name, and

463
00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:21,039
then he was I was like, okay, anyway, I'll you know,

464
00:24:21,079 --> 00:24:21,720
I'll call you later.

465
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:22,759
Speaker 6: And I'm out with him.

466
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,319
Speaker 5: And then Jenny comes to the door dress like a

467
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:30,680
hobo and like a skirt, jeans and sweaters and whatever.

468
00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 3: I don't know.

469
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 5: I don't even know exactly what her tosks were.

470
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: But I know, jeans and a kanke skirt wearing a bottom,

471
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,279
and I was thinking that was really weird, and so

472
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,799
that's not what I'm used to dress sometimes.

473
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 5: When she was being stupid.

474
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 2: What Lauren meant by when she was being stupid is

475
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,960
that her mother used to layer odd, unmatching pieces of

476
00:24:51,039 --> 00:24:56,359
clothing during bad mental health episodes. Increasingly, Jenny was starting

477
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,279
to act more and more like her mother. She would

478
00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:04,720
ramble on about nonsensical things, have bouts of extreme paranoia,

479
00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:09,720
and just you know, actor ratic. Now, Lauren could see

480
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,519
a visual representation of the transformation that had been taking

481
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:20,160
place for years as Jenny's mental health quietly declined. She

482
00:25:20,279 --> 00:25:22,960
had a khaki shirt layered over a pair of jeans,

483
00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:27,000
Her hair was disheveled, and, like Lauren said, she looked

484
00:25:27,079 --> 00:25:29,680
like a homeless person anyway.

485
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 5: So I go out to the door. I left the

486
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,279
kids in the car. You know, I'm playing. I'm just

487
00:25:34,319 --> 00:25:35,880
stopping at the door, saying, you know, let's go out

488
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,480
to eat or whatever. I did pretty good at work.

489
00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:38,599
I was going to say, let's find.

490
00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:40,039
Speaker 6: Your phone and do whatever we gotta do today.

491
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,759
Speaker 1: I noticed the first thing that the dogs didn't run

492
00:25:43,839 --> 00:25:45,359
up to me or run outside, or where the hell

493
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:45,839
were the dogs.

494
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,799
Speaker 5: I know, I know the door was opened, but usually

495
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,599
they're visual, you know, I don't know where they are, so.

496
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: I didn't hear any barking, and I go, where are

497
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,759
the girls, because usually they at least have a TV

498
00:25:55,839 --> 00:25:57,119
out or something at the radio on.

499
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 5: I was in the door, literally in the doorway, and.

500
00:26:02,079 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 6: She stood in the door, didn't actually go into yeah.

501
00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:07,519
Speaker 5: And then she said I have a cigarett.

502
00:26:07,519 --> 00:26:09,039
Speaker 1: And that's when I took my first step into the door,

503
00:26:09,319 --> 00:26:13,400
you know, into the actual house, asked for a cigarette,

504
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,000
and then I noticed this quiet.

505
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:15,839
Speaker 5: I said, where it is?

506
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,039
Speaker 4: She said she.

507
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,759
Speaker 1: Stand back towards the kitchen table where we're sitting night

508
00:26:19,759 --> 00:26:22,680
before there in the corner, and she said I killed him.

509
00:26:25,319 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 5: And I said no.

510
00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:28,599
Speaker 1: She said, I'm going to the All I said was no,

511
00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:31,200
pretty much. I mean, I don't remember if I said

512
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:32,440
anything else, but I just said no, and.

513
00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:35,319
Speaker 5: Not not like no no, you know, like it was

514
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:36,559
like no, you know.

515
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 1: And and she said I'm going to the defensive health

516
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,559
and she said it's all over now and it's done.

517
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,880
And that was she wasn't looking at me. She was

518
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,039
looking at the ground and it was plays faced again

519
00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:55,599
and and it was monotone voice too, and.

520
00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:01,079
Speaker 5: It is done like that, it is done. And she goes,

521
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,480
I'm going there, and she looked up and she goes,

522
00:27:02,519 --> 00:27:05,279
you have to call the police any Laura. And I said, okay,

523
00:27:05,759 --> 00:27:07,680
I said, but show me how you tried to kill yourself.

524
00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: And soon as she showed me the wrist, I had

525
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,680
already backed up enough to where I was out almost

526
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,119
out the door at the doorway again, and she showed

527
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:15,400
it to me.

528
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 5: And I was on the porch by that, like I

529
00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:17,880
took another stuff back.

530
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,319
Speaker 1: When I was on the porch or the deck or whatever,

531
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,799
I was starting to go, okay, Jen, you stay here,

532
00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:25,279
keep calm, And that's when I.

533
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 3: I mean, I was like, you know, never yeah.

534
00:27:30,599 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 2: Before her police interview, investigators hope that allowing Lauren to

535
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,640
listen to her own nine one one call over again

536
00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:40,920
would jog her memory and help them piece together what

537
00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:43,200
was going through Jenny's mind.

538
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 5: Well, like, I mean, if you.

539
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: Could listen to it right now, I was really calm

540
00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:49,880
in the beginning because I'm still outside of the.

541
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 5: Car when I called, and Jenny was like, are you calling?

542
00:27:53,799 --> 00:27:54,279
Speaker 3: And I said.

543
00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:56,319
Speaker 1: I wanted to say no because I didn't know. I

544
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,559
was fearful for my kids in the car and for myself.

545
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,480
But I was walking around to get the dressed in

546
00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:00,880
the copy.

547
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 3: We're looking the driveway around the streets.

548
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: I walked around the back of the car because I'm thinking,

549
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,440
I'm looking in the car after because she showed me

550
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:08,920
a wrist. I'm looking in the car for anything that

551
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,400
I could grab out, you know. I'm saying, if she

552
00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:11,839
comes after me, I don't know.

553
00:28:12,079 --> 00:28:14,279
Speaker 6: And then I walk up. I don't want to ring

554
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,759
her hands, nothing for nothing like that.

555
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: I think she may have been smoking a cigarette because

556
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,960
I gave her one, but I gave her the letter

557
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:22,759
to use her and she.

558
00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 3: Gave it back to me.

559
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,559
Speaker 1: But I'm walking around the back of the car, standing

560
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,599
behind the station wage and thinking that's the safest place

561
00:28:28,599 --> 00:28:29,519
if i have to run, because I know.

562
00:28:29,559 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 5: My car is locked and I have the keys in

563
00:28:31,519 --> 00:28:35,559
my pocket. So I'm staying back there, and I'm saying, yes, Jennifer,

564
00:28:35,599 --> 00:28:38,079
I'm calling you know whatever. I started on a dispatch.

565
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,480
I told them, you know, I don't know what's going on.

566
00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:43,119
I know, and then they're like, man, you have you know.

567
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,359
I fee tallest, and I'm thinking, you know, what is

568
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,400
there to I can't. I couldn't even fathom go in

569
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:48,319
to what am I supposed to say?

570
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:48,799
Speaker 8: You know?

571
00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:53,519
Speaker 1: And I remember telling them that, yeah, she harmed herself

572
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,119
and she said that she killed her kids.

573
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,799
Speaker 2: When police arrived at the scene and entered the trailer,

574
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,400
they found Jenny pacing around, ready to be taken to

575
00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:06,759
the quote depths of hell. Their eyes were quickly drawn

576
00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:11,599
to the first bloody scene, three dead dogs piled up

577
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,400
inside a crate. Jenny hadn't stopped there. She even stabbed

578
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,720
the pet mouse inside its cage. As officers made their

579
00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:24,440
way to the back bedroom, they could see that tragically,

580
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,039
Jenny was telling the truth about her kids. That year

581
00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:33,640
old Alexa laid motionless on a makeshift bed next to

582
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,279
her five year old sister Ashley. Their throats had been cut.

583
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 6: Jennifer, you know Mark right, he's been talking to him.

584
00:29:42,319 --> 00:29:44,759
Like I said, I'm Dave. We both worked here for

585
00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:47,400
the Sheriff's office. Okay, you want to talk to you

586
00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:48,880
about what's going on.

587
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,759
Speaker 8: Okay, before we do that, can you look at me

588
00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:54,960
while we're talking?

589
00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:56,079
Speaker 6: Clear here at your face.

590
00:29:56,119 --> 00:29:58,119
Speaker 3: I can see it. There you go look at me.

591
00:29:58,279 --> 00:29:58,680
There you go.

592
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 8: Before we do that, hey, nineteen, I contact me.

593
00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:05,599
Speaker 6: Okay, before we do that, we have to read you

594
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:06,119
your rights.

595
00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:06,359
Speaker 8: Okay.

596
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:07,799
Speaker 3: You know what those are. You've heard about it, you

597
00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:09,880
see my TV. All right, I'm gonna read them to you.

598
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,839
Speaker 8: Okay, seeactly is they are on the list here, all right,

599
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:14,279
and then.

600
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 6: We're done, like you just sign them okay, and then

601
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,039
we can talk. We can't talk until we do that,

602
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,160
right Are you cold?

603
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 5: I want to talk about it?

604
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:24,799
Speaker 6: Are you just nervous?

605
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,039
Speaker 5: I'm wanna talk about it. I don't want to think

606
00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:27,319
about it.

607
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: Okay.

608
00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 10: Let me just read your rights here, okay, like you

609
00:30:31,519 --> 00:30:35,200
have to write for your main silence first of all, Jennifer, okay,

610
00:30:35,599 --> 00:30:36,279
take any breath.

611
00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 3: Okay, get ahold of yourself.

612
00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:43,519
Speaker 5: All right, so I don't know, get ahold of yourself

613
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:44,599
right now.

614
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,279
Speaker 6: You're a set if you got right to be.

615
00:30:46,559 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 3: Okay.

616
00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:49,519
Speaker 5: We got to go through this all right, Okay.

617
00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 6: Do you understand all those yes?

618
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:52,759
Speaker 5: Okay?

619
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,039
Speaker 8: And then the last question is.

620
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 6: I mean I don't want to talk about it.

621
00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:03,119
Speaker 10: You finish a surf. I really state I have really statements.

622
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,160
Oh my right, so I understand what my rights are.

623
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,680
I'm willing to make a statement answer questions. I do

624
00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:09,400
not want a lawyer at this time. I understand and

625
00:31:09,519 --> 00:31:11,640
know what I'm doing. No promise is the threat's been

626
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,960
made to me, no pressure or course of any kind

627
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,400
of news against me. Okay, do you understand that?

628
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:17,279
Speaker 3: Okay?

629
00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 8: All that, knowing all that, you want to talk to

630
00:31:20,079 --> 00:31:20,480
us right now?

631
00:31:20,759 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 5: I don't want to talk about it.

632
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:22,559
Speaker 3: I don't want to think about it.

633
00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:27,279
Speaker 8: Okay, Okay, enniversity, because you want to talk to an.

634
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 5: Attorney or do you I don't even want to think

635
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,160
about it.

636
00:31:31,079 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 11: We just want to get a couple of things straights,

637
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,359
make sure we've got everything, got everything right, okay, So

638
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,839
we don't want to get everything anything wrong.

639
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:37,519
Speaker 1: Okay.

640
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,519
Speaker 11: If you want to talk to an attorney, that's one thing.

641
00:31:39,519 --> 00:31:41,200
But if you just if you're a little nervous about it,

642
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,759
maybe can work that out. You're very cooperative during the

643
00:31:45,519 --> 00:31:48,359
the friends of the name, which we really appreciate. Nurses

644
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,240
were very pleased with that.

645
00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:52,519
Speaker 5: Are you cold, well, I just don't want to talk

646
00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:52,839
about it.

647
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 6: H you want a blanket?

648
00:31:54,839 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 3: No, get your blanket or okay?

649
00:32:00,279 --> 00:32:04,759
Speaker 5: So if you remember that, I love you for that one.

650
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 8: Okay, sit tiny for a minute.

651
00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:15,519
Speaker 2: In case you couldn't understand her. At the end, she said,

652
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,640
erase my brain, erase my memory, and I'd love you

653
00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:24,079
for that one. We can only imagine what's in there.

654
00:32:26,079 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 3: Do you understand what we're trying to do here? You know,

655
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,680
like I said, if you want an attorney or something

656
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:31,720
like that, I can understand it.

657
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,839
Speaker 11: Just try something, though. I'm just I'm just talking to you,

658
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,079
not an We just want to make sure we got

659
00:32:37,119 --> 00:32:38,680
things right. We want to make sure we're going to

660
00:32:38,759 --> 00:32:41,279
understand it. We don't want to make any mistakes. That's

661
00:32:41,319 --> 00:32:42,279
why we want to talk to you.

662
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: I don't want to of course, I don't want to

663
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:44,279
talk you into talk.

664
00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:45,799
Speaker 11: And if you if you want to talk to attorney,

665
00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:47,720
but if you're just a little nervous, we can wait.

666
00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:50,039
We can get you some water, you know, just just

667
00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:53,640
got your relaxed a little bit. Okay, get your blanket.

668
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 3: It is cold in there. I'm even cold in there.

669
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,359
Speaker 2: It's clear that these guys were getting nervous that Jenny

670
00:32:59,599 --> 00:33:03,279
made a not to talk, so they started to employ

671
00:33:03,359 --> 00:33:07,599
a little bit of good cop, bad cop. Just before

672
00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:10,279
the one detective was able to follow through on his

673
00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:13,880
promise of some water in a blanket. The other came

674
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,200
bursting back into the room.

675
00:33:15,759 --> 00:33:17,799
Speaker 3: What do you think about that? Well, I sit and

676
00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:19,160
think about it with a little bit of water in

677
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,279
a blanket. Water. Okay, we'll gonna get you some.

678
00:33:22,359 --> 00:33:26,359
Speaker 8: Water, all right. You don't want to talk to us,

679
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,279
is that right? You don't want to talk to us.

680
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,519
Speaker 6: I don't want to talk.

681
00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:33,359
Speaker 1: About it, or you can add I can see if

682
00:33:33,359 --> 00:33:35,400
I can't answer it with I don't I can't crap.

683
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 6: Okay, stay up there, answered you back.

684
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,319
Speaker 2: They took her back to her cell and planned to

685
00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:45,480
try again the next day.

686
00:33:46,079 --> 00:33:48,759
Speaker 12: Con Man used to reiterate, Yesterday you said you didn't

687
00:33:48,759 --> 00:33:51,880
want to talk to us because you you just run

688
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,400
out to us a talk. Today, you want to talk

689
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,720
to us, Jennifer. Today you do want to talk to

690
00:33:59,839 --> 00:34:04,160
us without the owner presence. It doesn't matter, okay, And

691
00:34:04,279 --> 00:34:05,839
see it doesn't matter. That means you want to talk

692
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:06,119
to us.

693
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:07,279
Speaker 3: Okay.

694
00:34:12,039 --> 00:34:17,519
Speaker 6: He've been broken career. Don't want to come off truth, Jennifer.

695
00:34:17,559 --> 00:34:22,239
Do you take any of medication normally at all? Nothing? No, okay,

696
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,760
nothing for any type of psychiatric or nothing for any type.

697
00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:28,119
Speaker 3: Of the physical.

698
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 5: Okay.

699
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: Once Jennifer really starts to open up, the detectives. In

700
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,880
this interview, it's clear that she absolutely needed to be

701
00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:41,000
on psychiatric medicine. It's not often that we gain access

702
00:34:41,039 --> 00:34:44,920
to police interviews of defendants suffering from severe mental illness,

703
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,760
but Jennifer's case is unique. We'll get back to that later.

704
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:51,599
Speaker 3: Well, what do you want to know?

705
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: I don't know.

706
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 6: Well, we know when we're here, right, yeah, okay, and

707
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,719
we know what happen, and you know what happened, right.

708
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 3: The big question is why, And that's what I want.

709
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 5: I don't know.

710
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,079
Speaker 13: I really don't fucking know. It's like the night before

711
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,039
or two nights before, you got whatever. I just stay

712
00:35:11,079 --> 00:35:12,440
up all my line up there, and every time I

713
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,679
close my eyes and keep having like bad dreams they're

714
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,920
like dead people or whatever and blah blah blah, And

715
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:18,679
I'm like, well, what the hell?

716
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 5: This is just weird.

717
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,079
Speaker 6: So I freaking didn't.

718
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:21,519
Speaker 5: Even think about that.

719
00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:24,559
Speaker 6: Does this happen to you frequently, that you dream about

720
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:25,400
dead people or No?

721
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,199
Speaker 5: Never I watched freaking story movies. Nothing, it's just hears me, first.

722
00:35:29,039 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 6: Time you've ever had that type of thing. Okay, I mean,

723
00:35:33,039 --> 00:35:33,679
help my kid.

724
00:35:34,639 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 5: We were so watching sci fi here all the time.

725
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:37,159
Speaker 6: Okay.

726
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 5: Anyway, so I was look up all night for that.

727
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:42,440
No big deal, We'll go next day, No big deal,

728
00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:43,639
no crowns, nothing.

729
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 3: Would that have been?

730
00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 6: What day would that have been?

731
00:35:46,119 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 3: I don't remember.

732
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,039
Speaker 5: I don't even know what day it is right now.

733
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:49,119
Speaker 6: Today's Monday.

734
00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 5: When did I get here?

735
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 6: Yesterday was Sunday?

736
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,159
Speaker 3: Okay, so this has been.

737
00:35:54,079 --> 00:35:57,519
Speaker 5: A Saturday morning. Everything was fine, and then all of

738
00:35:57,519 --> 00:35:59,360
a sudden, my sister was there, My sister, Lauren. She

739
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,000
doesn't want to cause good, right, she was at my house,

740
00:36:02,039 --> 00:36:03,360
and all of a sudden, it was like I just

741
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,559
kept freaking hearing his voice in my head telling me

742
00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:08,480
all this she's liked. Jenny stopped talking to them. Stop

743
00:36:08,639 --> 00:36:10,159
wasn't in a voice or whatever the hell you're doing?

744
00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:10,840
Stopped doing and then.

745
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 6: Talking about how you know you were listening to the

746
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:12,840
voice I.

747
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 8: Was telling her.

748
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 6: What it was saying is that it was Saturday morning.

749
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,519
Speaker 5: No, if I got here Sunday, it would have been

750
00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:21,440
a Saturday afternoon.

751
00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: Now keep in mind, the average person would probably freak

752
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,239
out upon hearing their sibling talking to themselves as if

753
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,679
they're having a conversation. But for Lauren, this was nothing new.

754
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,199
She was no stranger to brushing off the nonsensical ramblings.

755
00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:43,039
She even said to Jenny, stopped talking to those voices

756
00:36:43,159 --> 00:36:47,400
or whatever it is that you're doing. In Lauren's sane mind,

757
00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:51,480
addressing her older sister's mental illness was at the bottom

758
00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:55,679
of the list of priorities. When Jenny's pipes froze and

759
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,599
the trailer descended into chaos, Lauren's first concern was the

760
00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:04,280
safe d of her nieces. Basically, she thought, Okay, Jenny

761
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,760
isn't a danger to herself or them. She's made it

762
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,920
this far in life. Let's just deal with the issues

763
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,440
that we can fix right now, which you know makes

764
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:16,480
a lot of sense.

765
00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 6: And what did you guys do? Were you guys picking

766
00:37:19,039 --> 00:37:19,840
things up around the house?

767
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, they make clean up my house and shit, Okay,

768
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,280
so I've been, I've been. I've been drinking way.

769
00:37:24,199 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 8: Too much in my house.

770
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 3: With a say, what were you guys cleaning it for?

771
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 13: She said, I was a first six twey call that

772
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,599
was gonna lose my kids. That house was that man,

773
00:37:33,679 --> 00:37:35,039
I mean, it had to be cleaned up. So they

774
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:37,000
came over to help me clean it up and drinking

775
00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:39,400
I was gonna My sister paid them ten bucks apiece to.

776
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 5: Help me that day, and I was gonna pick her

777
00:37:41,039 --> 00:37:42,440
back the money that was broke.

778
00:37:43,159 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 8: Did were you drinking when they were there?

779
00:37:48,119 --> 00:37:49,519
Speaker 5: I had a couple of beers when they were there.

780
00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 3: How often are you drinking?

781
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 6: Did you've been drinking a lot with me?

782
00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 8: And how much every day?

783
00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 5: Maybe out like a twelve pack a day, but I

784
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:55,199
was cutting.

785
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 13: I was trying to no between the six and a

786
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:02,000
twelve pack bit okay, usually by natural ice, bea or whatever,

787
00:38:03,079 --> 00:38:05,960
but right shoot, they were helping him over and they

788
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,719
were helped me to do that, and I just started

789
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,360
freaking out. And then after they left it, when fregaging,

790
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:11,920
I started, actually.

791
00:38:12,679 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 6: Do you hear voices any drink?

792
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:14,519
Speaker 2: No?

793
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 13: I don't think I ever had that happened to me

794
00:38:17,079 --> 00:38:19,400
ever in my entire life. It was just like somebody's

795
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,119
freaking right in my fucking head. And it wasn't even

796
00:38:22,159 --> 00:38:23,920
like hearing hearing voices. I could hear it, and it

797
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:25,480
was like I was reading it at the same time,

798
00:38:25,639 --> 00:38:28,920
if that makes any sense. It wasn't a weird shit

799
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,159
go to this part of the house, on to that

800
00:38:30,199 --> 00:38:31,239
part of the house. What did this part of the

801
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:32,320
house go to that part of the house.

802
00:38:32,639 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 5: It was like all nice and.

803
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 13: Sweet at first, and then freaking it started getting freaking weird,

804
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:37,840
and then it just freaking got evil.

805
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 5: It freaking it's.

806
00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 13: Even telling me, and then I forget started listening to it,

807
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,039
I guess, because then I forget started taking the It

808
00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:45,199
started saying something about freaking people being on Saturday to

809
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,519
coming and kill us and all this weird ship, and

810
00:38:47,559 --> 00:38:48,239
then freaking.

811
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:49,199
Speaker 5: I'd have to do this or that if I don't

812
00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:50,519
want my kids to die, to do this or that,

813
00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:50,920
and then.

814
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 13: Freaking after like freaking probably about half hour hour that

815
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,039
forging it finally freaking it told me to get my

816
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:56,880
kids already and take them down the streets their friend's

817
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:58,440
house so that they wouldn't die that night, and then

818
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,320
halfway there and said take them back home because they

819
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:01,920
already they're already killed at their house.

820
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 6: And did you actually take them down the street?

821
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,039
Speaker 2: Ideah, all of what Jenny is recounting the police that

822
00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:12,079
happened after her sister Lauren left that night.

823
00:39:12,679 --> 00:39:15,119
Speaker 5: I'm still confused. I'm still just like figuring this out.

824
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:16,599
It was like, what the hell, man, what did I do?

825
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,159
Speaker 13: I actually freaking did that. Oh, it gets weirder, and

826
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,800
this gets really weirder. Forget that all that happened, and

827
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,360
then okay, I find you get back in the house, and.

828
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:25,199
Speaker 5: I'm like, well, what the hell you know?

829
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 11: This is just fun.

830
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 13: Kid's voice told me to whatever boy was told me

831
00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:31,079
to and forget not to go down there because they

832
00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:33,039
were already dead and blah blah, and then told me

833
00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:34,199
to go back to the house and I said, well,

834
00:39:34,199 --> 00:39:35,880
sack in the morning, because then you'll find out they're.

835
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,519
Speaker 5: Not dead, but don't go over there now. And then

836
00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:39,760
blah bah blah and back and forth and back and forth,

837
00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:40,679
and kept.

838
00:39:40,559 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 13: Staying stuff about how people would come over there and

839
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,320
kill me and I'd never know it when they finally

840
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:45,039
broke in the house.

841
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:47,199
Speaker 6: And so you return to the house with the girls

842
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:48,360
because the voice tells.

843
00:39:48,159 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 5: You, and back and forth.

844
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:51,559
Speaker 13: And then it was like got nicer again, and it

845
00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:52,599
was like, well, you have to do this, and you

846
00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:54,599
have to do that, you know this, bigger girls to

847
00:39:54,639 --> 00:39:55,920
make them nice, yea. You gotta take care of your

848
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,760
kids and blah blah blah, And then I started getting

849
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:58,239
evil again.

850
00:39:58,639 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 6: Were you gonna put the girls to bed?

851
00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 13: Yes?

852
00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 8: I did, or they sleeping on the floor so.

853
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 13: We were gonna all sleep together on the bedroom because

854
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:06,840
it was like, well, what whatever, and this voice is

855
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,679
telling me all this weird shit. So we're because we

856
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,159
haven't done this in years because I used to see

857
00:40:10,159 --> 00:40:12,639
about the couch. But then we were gonna freaking sleep

858
00:40:12,679 --> 00:40:15,159
on the bed, so freaking we made up the bed

859
00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:16,760
on the floor in the girl's room and freaking we

860
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,119
were gonna lay out. I actually laid out in the

861
00:40:18,159 --> 00:40:20,039
middle of them. Laf Stoe was on this side of

862
00:40:20,079 --> 00:40:21,760
me and iron her I was I was rubbing her

863
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,159
head and Ashto was on this tight and that was

864
00:40:23,159 --> 00:40:23,880
the same thing with her.

865
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:25,679
Speaker 6: And we were going to sleep like that.

866
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 5: We're all like, oh, you got a lot, I have

867
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,079
good dreams, well, blah blah blah.

868
00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:31,159
Speaker 13: And it was all good like that, and then frigging

869
00:40:31,199 --> 00:40:32,519
I got up and the boys started talking to me

870
00:40:32,559 --> 00:40:33,679
again and freaking telling me, this.

871
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,519
Speaker 6: Is asleep at that point when you got up, yeah, okay.

872
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 13: And frigging I actually went in for a moment. I

873
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,719
hit the bush and Knight bops my neck and I

874
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,519
didn't do that, And then freaking the voice is telling

875
00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:43,639
me to do this and that, and then it's telling

876
00:40:43,679 --> 00:40:45,239
me to go kill my kids before the people break

877
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:46,800
into my house to kill them, and heard them even

878
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,119
worse than what they were going, what would have happened

879
00:40:49,159 --> 00:40:50,960
or whatever, Just kill them so that it doesn't happen.

880
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:52,559
Speaker 5: And I wasn't gonna do that. I was just sitting

881
00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:54,000
there going and listen with the freaking thank of my

882
00:40:54,039 --> 00:40:55,239
ain't going, Oh my god, oh my god, oh agad

883
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:56,920
if anybody go walks in here, motherfucker.

884
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: So the voices and Jennifer's had were apparently telling her

885
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,400
that if she didn't kill her kids, people would break

886
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,239
into your house, take them away from her, and they'd

887
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,519
suffer a fate far worse than death, whatever that is.

888
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,480
At this point, she had long stopped drinking beers, hoping

889
00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:19,920
sobriety would make all of this go away, but it

890
00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:23,519
wasn't working. At first, Jennifer refused to give into the

891
00:41:23,639 --> 00:41:26,960
voices and follow through with the murders. Instead, she put

892
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,039
the butcher knife she grabbed from the kitchen up to

893
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:34,599
her own throat and considered killing herself. After deciding against that,

894
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,360
she went and sat in the front room, still clutching

895
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,320
the knife and waited for people to arrive. If the

896
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,880
voices were right and someone did break in, she'd be

897
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,599
ready to defend her family. Some time passed, and obviously

898
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:56,119
nothing happened. The voices were gone too, so, thinking the

899
00:41:56,159 --> 00:41:58,920
whole ordeal was over, she went back and laid in

900
00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:03,119
bed with her girls, eventually falling asleep until morning.

901
00:42:03,639 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, go back to you at seven thirty, you old

902
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,840
come up, put your cold and shoes on.

903
00:42:08,119 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

904
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 13: And then we were gonna go leave, and freaking doesn't

905
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,440
where theyre like, no, freaking we can't leave.

906
00:42:12,599 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 8: Whatever blow you're gonna go.

907
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 13: Do you think I'll across the streets to the payphone

908
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,159
to call my dad for some reason. Okay, I try

909
00:42:18,199 --> 00:42:19,719
to come pick us up because I was like, freaking

910
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,320
so scared. Then we I don't even know if we

911
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:21,960
went outside.

912
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: I don't remember.

913
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,199
Speaker 5: Before we turned back in and freaking didn't and then

914
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:26,880
it was like nothing was happening. And then all this done.

915
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,199
I just freaking grabbed the knife and did it all right.

916
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 6: When that happened, where did you get the knife from?

917
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 5: I think he was in the kitchen.

918
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 8: And how did the girls get.

919
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: Back in the bedroom?

920
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, and they went back in the bedroom.

921
00:42:39,199 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 13: And then we're scared, I know, and who who uh

922
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:48,400
who went first, Lexa, your younger one, bigger one, the

923
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:48,840
bigger one.

924
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, she's actually by the way. Actually, I thought,

925
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,719
freaking I'm gonna swear it. I thought I was like

926
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,440
telling him, I I love you. You know you'll never

927
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,519
be heard. Blow, I'll what that happened to you? And

928
00:42:58,599 --> 00:43:00,559
then she's like, can't actually, and it was like okay,

929
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,360
and then I walked out of the freaking bedroom. And

930
00:43:02,559 --> 00:43:04,760
so I can't even believe I said that. I don't

931
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,719
believe I said it. Yeah, I don't believe that. I

932
00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:09,360
must have heard that in my fucking head.

933
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 6: There's no actually run from the room.

934
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, she was in the fleet, hiding under the kitchen table.

935
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 2: This was clearly difficult for Jennifer talking about what she

936
00:43:18,079 --> 00:43:21,599
did to her own two little girls. You can hear

937
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,360
in the audio that she seems to show some remorse,

938
00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:27,760
but her train of thought keeps getting redirected away from

939
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,480
the worst parts of that morning.

940
00:43:30,079 --> 00:43:31,559
Speaker 6: Did you bring Ashley back in the bedroom?

941
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 3: Next to walk?

942
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 9: So?

943
00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 3: Yeah?

944
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 8: Did does that where she died?

945
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:36,079
Speaker 6: Is that where it happened.

946
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,599
Speaker 5: That I think?

947
00:43:38,679 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 9: Yeah?

948
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 5: I don't take airshleep died until the better?

949
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:41,639
Speaker 3: Did you?

950
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 6: Cause it was in the kitchen your your back to

951
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:43,760
the bedroom.

952
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 5: Yes, but she was thought she was there in the kitchen,

953
00:43:47,079 --> 00:43:50,639
but I don't think she was. I don't think she better.

954
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,199
Speaker 6: Did you actually stab her in the kitchen?

955
00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: Yes?

956
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:55,679
Speaker 8: And how did you stab her?

957
00:43:56,039 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 6: Where would she was she on the floor, on the ground,

958
00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,159
on her back? Where she's standing on?

959
00:43:59,239 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 3: I don't remember.

960
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:02,199
Speaker 6: Did you stay?

961
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 5: Maybe I didn't do it in the kitchen.

962
00:44:03,679 --> 00:44:04,519
Speaker 1: That I don't know.

963
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 6: Okay, but did you you took her back to the

964
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,239
better at some point? Was she fighting you?

965
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 9: No?

966
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 5: I don't know.

967
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:13,079
Speaker 3: I don't think so.

968
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,519
Speaker 5: She's probably was. I would have, man, fuck you?

969
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 8: You laid her next to uh to Alexa.

970
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 3: Was dead at this point?

971
00:44:26,119 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 8: Yeah?

972
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 6: And when you lay Ashley?

973
00:44:28,519 --> 00:44:29,639
Speaker 8: Was she dead when you lay her next to all

974
00:44:29,679 --> 00:44:30,920
that storry? Did you play her down then.

975
00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:35,159
Speaker 5: Lay down? And I think I made sure team was dead?

976
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 3: I don't know when you say you made sure she

977
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:38,239
what did you do?

978
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:39,679
Speaker 6: See?

979
00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:42,639
Speaker 8: If there's pulp? Can you show me how can you

980
00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:43,960
put the cup down for a second?

981
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 6: Show me what hand you held a knife in, and

982
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:46,239
show me.

983
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 8: How you actually what motions.

984
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 9: You got it?

985
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 6: I don't know.

986
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 5: It's just like dead you were, I think out.

987
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 6: So you're holding your hand up like this and coming

988
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:55,719
down with a knife.

989
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,519
Speaker 8: You hold a knife like this or like like this.

990
00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:03,639
Speaker 2: In the footage, the detective shows two different stabbing motions.

991
00:45:04,519 --> 00:45:08,000
The first one he demonstrates is an overhead downward motion,

992
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,039
while the other is an underhanded swiping upwards or the

993
00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:13,880
voice is still.

994
00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 13: Taught to me, when you were doing this, they were

995
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,159
doing this long. I wouldn't freaking leave my house. After

996
00:45:18,199 --> 00:45:19,800
I did it, I actually thought I saved them. And

997
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,320
then I started looking around the house and freaking everything

998
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,559
the voices told me the night before, and the voices

999
00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:27,280
are actually even telling me. I think that freaking they

1000
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:28,960
were going to drive me crazy, so I kill my kids.

1001
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:30,400
And by the morning time and I was like noo.

1002
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,039
Speaker 5: At one point, I think, all right, so I don't

1003
00:45:33,039 --> 00:45:33,639
remember everything.

1004
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 9: Sometime it was sometimes shortly after seven thirty yesterday morning

1005
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:39,400
when the girls die, right yep?

1006
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 8: Okay? And then and then how long did that the

1007
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,119
dogs die? You were cooling?

1008
00:45:45,199 --> 00:45:45,519
Speaker 1: Not long.

1009
00:45:45,599 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 13: I was walking around the house and then kept thinking

1010
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,840
about freaking weird shit about I was going to burn

1011
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,960
in hell now and demons were gonna come pick me

1012
00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:55,400
up from the front of my house. And I'm freaking

1013
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,840
red car with fingers and toenails. That's freaking seats, covers

1014
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:00,239
and shit.

1015
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:00,639
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1016
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,599
Speaker 5: It was fuck freaky.

1017
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 13: And all of a sudden it was like the dogs

1018
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:06,159
are still alive, freaking I want to be tortured, he

1019
00:46:06,199 --> 00:46:07,320
does one of they drop me down into hell.

1020
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 5: I gotta kill the animals.

1021
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 3: Killed the animals? How to do that? They stuck a

1022
00:46:15,519 --> 00:46:15,960
knife in it.

1023
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 5: And just went down and mixture, they were dead?

1024
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,079
Speaker 3: Were they on the ground? Were you holding them?

1025
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 5: They were in a green blanket.

1026
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,159
Speaker 13: But Angel, the big of them, actually got away and

1027
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:26,840
ran into the kitchen day to chase her down It

1028
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,760
for your pet, And I told him it was their

1029
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:29,159
own good.

1030
00:46:30,159 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 3: And you you put her on a blanket, threw them

1031
00:46:33,039 --> 00:46:35,519
in the cage, okay. And then what are the little

1032
00:46:35,519 --> 00:46:38,000
ones called the buffies?

1033
00:46:38,039 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 5: They were.

1034
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:41,159
Speaker 6: Jasmine and.

1035
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 5: What was the other one's saying?

1036
00:46:45,199 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 3: And they were the offspring of Angel, that was their mindkay.

1037
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:52,639
Speaker 5: I don't know she's she.

1038
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,599
Speaker 13: Was full Pomeranian and I don't know what the dad was.

1039
00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:01,199
She just got pregnant, okay. And then what about that

1040
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,920
mouse in the pet mouse? I had to kill the mouse?

1041
00:47:05,639 --> 00:47:09,079
Speaker 3: How did you think that broke it?

1042
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:10,199
Speaker 5: Snack or something.

1043
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 3: Did you try to stab it?

1044
00:47:14,159 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 2: Probably Jennifer had killed every living being in her small trailer,

1045
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,079
her two defenseless girls, three tiny Pomeranians, two of them puppies,

1046
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,920
and even the pet mouse. And it wasn't just the

1047
00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:32,639
dog she had to chase down to finish the job.

1048
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,000
Despite their youngest age, her two daughters knew exactly what

1049
00:47:37,199 --> 00:47:39,840
was going to happen, and they tried to get away.

1050
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,360
There's nothing I can say to prepare you for this

1051
00:47:43,519 --> 00:47:47,960
next part. It is absolutely heartbreaking.

1052
00:47:48,159 --> 00:47:51,159
Speaker 9: Just to go back to so I can clarify Alexa

1053
00:47:52,079 --> 00:47:55,079
was killed in her bedroom? Was she killed right where

1054
00:47:55,079 --> 00:47:59,679
we found her on the floor that little makeshift bent

1055
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,760
you as we're sleeping on, okay? And then when while

1056
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,280
Alexa was being killed, Ashley ran out of the room

1057
00:48:08,639 --> 00:48:11,119
and she ran into the kitchen, run on the table

1058
00:48:11,199 --> 00:48:13,280
and she was higher on the table and I pulled

1059
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,760
her out. And did you did you stay at her

1060
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:17,239
under the table at all? Did you try it like

1061
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,360
to take come out, come out or or how did

1062
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:21,440
you get her out rounder of the table?

1063
00:48:21,519 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 5: Just grabbed her round and pulled her out?

1064
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,679
Speaker 9: I think you grab her am and pulled her out

1065
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,039
because there's a little bit of bloo under the table,

1066
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,119
So we're wondering did she get stay out her there

1067
00:48:33,159 --> 00:48:33,400
at all?

1068
00:48:35,039 --> 00:48:37,159
Speaker 5: She got stayed in the bedroom first, and Lexa pushed

1069
00:48:37,199 --> 00:48:38,519
me out and pushed her out of the way. And

1070
00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:40,920
then I did to Alexa so.

1071
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,559
Speaker 8: Bleeding okay, So ash he was bleeding past. Why there's

1072
00:48:45,559 --> 00:48:48,679
little bit of blood on the table m hm okay.

1073
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 9: So then once you get Ashley, I'm gonna at the

1074
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,800
table and you carry your back to the bedroom mm hm.

1075
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 8: And you laid did she fight more? Did you? Did

1076
00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:07,599
you lay her down right next to Alesa and that's

1077
00:49:07,599 --> 00:49:08,199
where she died?

1078
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:08,639
Speaker 5: Yes?

1079
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 8: Okay? And did she try to get back up and

1080
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:12,880
run again?

1081
00:49:14,039 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 3: Yes? Okay?

1082
00:49:16,559 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 1: All right.

1083
00:49:19,199 --> 00:49:21,559
Speaker 2: Throughout this part of the interview, Jennifer with a blanket

1084
00:49:21,639 --> 00:49:24,880
over her shoulders, is using it to cover her face.

1085
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:32,000
She's hunched over in her chair, rocking back and fourth.

1086
00:49:32,639 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 8: Did she say anything to you, Jennifer, I know its sorry.

1087
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,199
Did do you call her well, we don't okay. Was

1088
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:51,760
she crying?

1089
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:52,519
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1090
00:49:53,159 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 8: What was she saying?

1091
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 6: What was she saying?

1092
00:49:54,599 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 5: No, no, Mama, don't do it, mom? Just scar as fuck?

1093
00:49:59,559 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 3: Okay?

1094
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 5: All right, okay?

1095
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,559
Speaker 8: And how many times do you think he stabbed her?

1096
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:08,559
Speaker 1: I have no it.

1097
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 3: I don't want to know.

1098
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 8: Okay, do you remember how many times you Stabbedshley?

1099
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:14,280
Speaker 3: No?

1100
00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:17,199
Speaker 8: I'm sorry Alsa, No, I don't want to know that either.

1101
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:19,199
Speaker 3: Okay.

1102
00:50:21,559 --> 00:50:23,599
Speaker 6: Do you remember when when he actually was stabbed the

1103
00:50:23,679 --> 00:50:25,159
first time of viting? Throw out of the room.

1104
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:32,079
Speaker 8: Where was she stabbed in the neck the deep wound

1105
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:32,920
or was.

1106
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 6: The skin on dr I don't know.

1107
00:50:36,519 --> 00:50:40,159
Speaker 2: Jennifer had used four different large kitchen knives to slay

1108
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:44,440
everyone in the trailer that morning. She ended her daughter's

1109
00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:48,119
lives by stabbing them each multiple times in the neck area,

1110
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:54,840
effectively severing their windpipes as well as important arteries besides

1111
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,000
the neck wounds, Though there were no defensive injuries, these

1112
00:50:59,039 --> 00:51:01,639
poor little girls could even begin to fight off their mother.

1113
00:51:02,599 --> 00:51:04,559
All they could do was run and try to find

1114
00:51:04,559 --> 00:51:11,199
a hiding spot, But even then Jennifer chased them down.

1115
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 8: Oh have you used narcotics in the past? Like long

1116
00:51:16,679 --> 00:51:18,760
your history? Did you use any kind of drugs?

1117
00:51:19,519 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 5: Nothing? Long term abuse of anything?

1118
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:21,559
Speaker 11: Well?

1119
00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:22,199
Speaker 8: What did you use?

1120
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 6: I smoked pot a.

1121
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 5: Few times, have done ASCID a few times?

1122
00:51:26,119 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 8: Asked how long would you do AD?

1123
00:51:27,639 --> 00:51:28,559
Speaker 5: When I was a teenager?

1124
00:51:29,119 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 8: Okay, But recently have you been using any kind of

1125
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:32,559
street drugs?

1126
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 6: Nothing whatsoever, any kind of prescription drugs? Okay?

1127
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 9: And have you ever seen anybody about any kind of

1128
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,079
problems in your head? If you talked to anybody about it,

1129
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:43,760
go see a doctor or not.

1130
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:44,599
Speaker 5: A couple of strengths.

1131
00:51:44,599 --> 00:51:46,039
Speaker 13: When I was a kid with this, because I was

1132
00:51:46,119 --> 00:51:49,519
getting arrested and stuff, my mama would stopped.

1133
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 6: Taking me and ship.

1134
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 3: Okay, does your mama have some problems my mom?

1135
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 5: My mom has to turn on chizophrenic, manic depressive.

1136
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,760
Speaker 2: Through interview Uewing, both Jennifer and her sister Lauren, detectives

1137
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,639
were beginning to put the pieces together. Jennifer had been

1138
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,199
on a slow path to mental ruin. She had self awareness,

1139
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,320
and she knew she was displaying many of the same

1140
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,679
odd behaviors her mother had shown as her mental health declined.

1141
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:25,840
This wasn't her first rodeo. Jennifer knew how these things eroded.

1142
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:31,599
She felt herself losing grip on reality, and she had

1143
00:52:31,639 --> 00:53:12,719
been desperately trying to hide it. Twenty one year old

1144
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:17,119
Lauren Kookla loved her family. Her biggest concern was making

1145
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,440
sure all of the children were safe, well fed, and loved.

1146
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,920
To make this kind of life a reality for her

1147
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:27,039
two nieces, eight year old Alexa and five year old Ashley.

1148
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:32,480
This often meant cleaning up her sister's messes. Her oldest sister, Jennifer,

1149
00:53:32,639 --> 00:53:37,480
was a functioning alcoholic with constant money problems, and so

1150
00:53:37,599 --> 00:53:42,000
those are the issues Lauren often helped to address. These

1151
00:53:42,039 --> 00:53:45,599
surface issues paled in comparison to the turmoil happening in

1152
00:53:45,679 --> 00:53:50,360
Jennifer's mind. The Kukla family was no stranger to mental illness,

1153
00:53:51,079 --> 00:53:55,079
which somewhat blinded Lauren to her sister's worsening mental state.

1154
00:53:56,079 --> 00:53:58,039
At the same time, Jennifer was trying to hide her

1155
00:53:58,079 --> 00:54:01,920
mental illness. She often became nervous after saying what she

1156
00:54:02,119 --> 00:54:05,880
perceived to be the wrong thing, which was basically anything

1157
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:10,119
that might indicate she was losing her mind. Lauren was

1158
00:54:10,159 --> 00:54:13,480
so concerned with these surface level issues that Jennifer's feeble

1159
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:18,679
attempts to hide what was actually going on worked. Things

1160
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,679
got quietly worse until February four, two thousand and seven,

1161
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:29,320
when Jennifer murdered her two little girls. Apparently, Jennifer's paranoia

1162
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,960
and hallucinations reached a peak that weekend, She told psychiatrists

1163
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,880
that voices were telling her that if she didn't kill

1164
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:42,039
her children, they'd be kidnapped, sexually abused, tortured, murdered, and

1165
00:54:42,119 --> 00:54:47,280
then eaten. In her distorted mind, Jennifer thought slitting their

1166
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,639
throats and ending at all quickly was an act of compassion.

1167
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:56,639
It was, from her perspective, the only way she could

1168
00:54:56,679 --> 00:54:57,119
save them.

1169
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,599
Speaker 3: Have you heard from the voices since and this happened?

1170
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,119
Speaker 13: Is that all morning after it happened, I stayed in

1171
00:55:06,119 --> 00:55:07,559
the house and I was like I couldn't leave it.

1172
00:55:07,679 --> 00:55:09,039
It was like I was sitting there waiting for somebody

1173
00:55:09,039 --> 00:55:10,639
to come pick me up to take me straight to house.

1174
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 5: And it was like, no big deal. It was like

1175
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:13,559
it was normal.

1176
00:55:15,119 --> 00:55:16,079
Speaker 8: So were you there all day?

1177
00:55:16,159 --> 00:55:16,280
Speaker 7: Then?

1178
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 6: Did you leave at any point?

1179
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:21,679
Speaker 5: So go to my car to get to your buttycle?

1180
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,800
Right backing up, that was it was.

1181
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 3: Your door I left open all day.

1182
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:32,679
Speaker 13: Why I don't know. It was like freaking I shut

1183
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:34,679
it then the freaking demons would come faster.

1184
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:39,079
Speaker 5: So crap, mm hmmm.

1185
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,039
Speaker 3: Where were you at during the day, sitting in the goat?

1186
00:55:43,119 --> 00:55:45,800
I think did you go back in the bedroom at all?

1187
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 5: And a couple of times, but couldn't stay back there.

1188
00:55:50,119 --> 00:55:50,519
Speaker 3: What did you do?

1189
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 6: There's what's better? She goes, you're better with the girls.

1190
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 5: Oh, and I went back and the after him, and

1191
00:56:00,519 --> 00:56:03,880
they had to change my clothes and freaking y'all cleaned up.

1192
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,719
For some fucked up reason was that your water wasn't

1193
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:11,880
running like the water like I don't want to toilet,

1194
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,360
you know the ok yeah, it was fun.

1195
00:56:15,519 --> 00:56:18,199
Speaker 3: I don't know. Okay, when you say you got changed,

1196
00:56:19,199 --> 00:56:22,320
what were you wearing that night? And then warm?

1197
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 5: I don't remember dance my sister.

1198
00:56:28,679 --> 00:56:32,519
Speaker 2: So after killing her children and all of the pets,

1199
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:37,079
Jennifer stayed in the house with their dead bodies all day.

1200
00:56:38,199 --> 00:56:41,119
She paced around until the voices apparently told her to

1201
00:56:42,039 --> 00:56:45,800
clean it up with no running water, though, she decided

1202
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,000
to take the lid off the toilet tank and use

1203
00:56:48,079 --> 00:56:52,679
the water in there to rinse off before replacing her

1204
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:57,519
bloodied clothes with random things scavenged from piles of laundry.

1205
00:56:58,599 --> 00:57:02,000
When Lauren came upon the carnage and saw her sister

1206
00:57:02,199 --> 00:57:05,920
dressed like a quote hobo, she suddenly realized what had

1207
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:10,360
been happening this whole time. At that moment, Lauren didn't

1208
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:15,000
see her sister. She saw her mother. Jennifer had become

1209
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:20,039
the splitting image of her mother, so her ashes.

1210
00:57:19,719 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 10: Didn't that day a day at an evening, it'd surprised

1211
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,599
to be the union your mom any.

1212
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 6: Acted similar to that. I mean, it was.

1213
00:57:27,679 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 1: It was surprising, but it was more interesting because when

1214
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:31,719
my mom would do I mean, she wouldn't do stuff

1215
00:57:31,719 --> 00:57:32,440
exactly like that.

1216
00:57:32,559 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 5: She never told me.

1217
00:57:33,519 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 1: She would just tell me about what happening, right, I mean,

1218
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,320
because my mom used to say, I'm I'm a murder.

1219
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:39,639
Speaker 7: Tell me.

1220
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 1: Jenny told me one time that she my mom pulled

1221
00:57:42,039 --> 00:57:44,079
over the car right over on our real planking her speedway,

1222
00:57:45,159 --> 00:57:47,639
and she said, I'm gonna drama center in my piss.

1223
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:49,360
You know, when she pulled, she pulled her vants down

1224
00:57:49,559 --> 00:57:52,199
and she was gonna drown herself in the bed. Don't

1225
00:57:52,199 --> 00:57:54,000
even My mom was moliple suicide at times, you know

1226
00:57:54,079 --> 00:57:56,440
what I'm saying. Not in front of me, But Jenny said,

1227
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:57,800
you guys are lucky you never had it as bad

1228
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,199
as we did. I guess she chased those out of

1229
00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:02,000
the backyard with a butcher knife one time, and like

1230
00:58:02,119 --> 00:58:04,920
all this stuff, I don't know, I don't remember too young.

1231
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,360
I guess, all right, shout it out.

1232
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 5: I have no idea, but.

1233
00:58:10,079 --> 00:58:13,519
Speaker 1: She would tell me stuff about make Keith Richards and

1234
00:58:13,719 --> 00:58:15,960
when we lost our house, how Keith Richards was gonna

1235
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:17,679
buy it and she was gonna get married to him.

1236
00:58:18,159 --> 00:58:19,800
She told me about this guy who was like a

1237
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,159
healer and like you know, like she worked.

1238
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 5: He when my grandma was sick of paying for it.

1239
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,199
Speaker 3: When did your your day go to prison?

1240
00:58:32,119 --> 00:58:33,679
Speaker 5: I was seven person.

1241
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 3: He's still in prison for that.

1242
00:58:36,519 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, three years.

1243
00:58:38,159 --> 00:58:39,119
Speaker 6: That was your natural father.

1244
00:58:40,159 --> 00:58:41,519
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sorry, I thought she said the other day

1245
00:58:41,519 --> 00:58:44,639
that he was still in person. I wish when's the

1246
00:58:44,719 --> 00:58:45,840
last thing that you can take with him?

1247
00:58:46,159 --> 00:58:50,519
Speaker 5: Called me that night, Sunday night, after you heard. He

1248
00:58:51,039 --> 00:58:53,599
lives right. Me and my husband are separated. Like I said,

1249
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:57,960
he lives three kindos away from my husband's mom.

1250
00:58:58,199 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 2: I remember, looking back at all the strange things Jennifer

1251
00:59:02,559 --> 00:59:06,199
had said and done made so much more sense when

1252
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:10,800
compared to her mother's decline. But hindsight is twenty twenty.

1253
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:15,440
Let's rewind back to when Jennifer became paranoid that the

1254
00:59:15,519 --> 00:59:18,039
two people who helped clean up her trailer were going

1255
00:59:18,119 --> 00:59:20,239
to call CPS and turn her in.

1256
00:59:21,039 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 8: She said, I mean she was.

1257
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: She talked, I guess briefly to Miss Jessica Carl about

1258
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,320
how she she liked Dean Koum's books and.

1259
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 5: Stuff like that, different kinds of like horns, suspense, stuff

1260
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:37,880
like that, and she said that later, is it right,

1261
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:38,760
she said that she.

1262
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,119
Speaker 1: She didn't She wishes she didn't say that because she

1263
00:59:42,199 --> 00:59:44,559
got those girls probably thinks, or that guy, that girl

1264
00:59:44,639 --> 00:59:47,119
probably thinks that she's not for liking those.

1265
00:59:47,039 --> 00:59:50,119
Speaker 6: Kinds of books. I mean, that's everything think.

1266
00:59:50,159 --> 00:59:52,599
Speaker 1: But because she's like tell them that, you know, I

1267
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:54,400
expect to read those type of books, you know, the

1268
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:55,440
interest pea bla, blah blah.

1269
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 6: And then she said.

1270
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:03,519
Speaker 1: To me that she's starting not to remember, but starting

1271
01:00:03,599 --> 01:00:07,440
to understand why she was drinking, why she would have

1272
01:00:07,639 --> 01:00:08,800
had a drinking problem.

1273
01:00:10,079 --> 01:00:12,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, she said, she understands why she has a drinking problem.

1274
01:00:13,719 --> 01:00:17,039
Speaker 2: For us, the people on the outside, it's not at

1275
01:00:17,039 --> 01:00:21,239
all surprising that Jennifer suffered from addiction. But in Jennifer's mind,

1276
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:25,000
this all stemmed from her hypnosis as a teenager.

1277
01:00:27,039 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 5: But it's in some way, hello, hi, in some way

1278
01:00:29,519 --> 01:00:37,480
connected to the hypnotism. What she didn't that information to me?

1279
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 8: She said that she told al that.

1280
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:45,639
Speaker 1: She knew biker crews like Vigilies or you know that.

1281
01:00:45,719 --> 01:00:48,079
She didn't say Vigulines, but that family looked like I've

1282
01:00:48,119 --> 01:00:50,079
ever heard of that life. So by stuff like that

1283
01:00:50,239 --> 01:00:52,920
that she was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Real,

1284
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,159
which I know is a bossed Djenko and was also

1285
01:00:57,239 --> 01:01:00,239
the owner of part owner of TJ's.

1286
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 5: Were she worked at a golf course for a couple

1287
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,159
of years, senter and stuff like that.

1288
01:01:03,679 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 3: She said that he.

1289
01:01:06,719 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: She wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if

1290
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:10,760
she if she would go there, and if she was

1291
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,719
actually doing the work that you know that they She

1292
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:15,440
told me she was like a bartender and a cook

1293
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,960
and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it.

1294
01:01:18,039 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 5: She's thinking that she was very watchington, thinking she was

1295
01:01:21,519 --> 01:01:23,199
doing that kind of work when really she was doing

1296
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:23,840
something else.

1297
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: She says that that was like a lapse in her brain.

1298
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:28,760
She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life.

1299
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:30,840
She asked me if I remembered her.

1300
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:32,639
Speaker 3: This was all Sara Ray.

1301
01:01:34,199 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 5: She said, I think Lauren that I used to kill people,

1302
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:41,760
and I said I really.

1303
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 6: I literally wrote it off.

1304
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 1: As her just being either drunk or me not recognizing

1305
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:48,639
it as an issue. Like she was saying it almost

1306
01:01:49,079 --> 01:01:53,280
not in a joking manner, but not to where it's like, Lauren,

1307
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:54,960
I think I used to kill people. You need to,

1308
01:01:55,039 --> 01:01:57,039
you know, help me or something. You know what, I

1309
01:01:57,079 --> 01:01:58,119
think she used to kill people.

1310
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:00,239
Speaker 5: I'm like, Jenny, you know what are you where are

1311
01:02:00,239 --> 01:02:01,719
you getting this one? And she's like, I don't know.

1312
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:03,920
I just she's like, I don't understand.

1313
01:02:04,039 --> 01:02:05,719
Speaker 6: I don't remember. I don't remember.

1314
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:07,719
Speaker 1: And then she said she said, like I don't remember

1315
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,039
that like three times, you know, in a row. And

1316
01:02:10,119 --> 01:02:12,400
then she said I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny,

1317
01:02:12,519 --> 01:02:15,079
you know, and I remember growing up like she used

1318
01:02:15,079 --> 01:02:17,000
to have like I know, it sounds stupid, but she

1319
01:02:17,159 --> 01:02:19,039
used to do like candle things in her room and

1320
01:02:19,199 --> 01:02:20,800
like she walk around on the can like you know

1321
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:22,000
what I'm saying, like weird.

1322
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 6: Shit like that like sands almost type yeah, like.

1323
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:29,159
Speaker 1: The sayans er like a demonic something or other. But

1324
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:31,800
I mean she at that time, I know that she

1325
01:02:32,519 --> 01:02:34,760
had had some experiences with drugs. I don't know what

1326
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,159
because I was nine years younger, but I know, I mean,

1327
01:02:37,199 --> 01:02:39,079
my mom boss a pot in the house. She found

1328
01:02:39,159 --> 01:02:41,400
plants and she threw them against the wall because they

1329
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,679
were all in the base of the kids. Me and

1330
01:02:44,159 --> 01:02:47,679
my old my Lizzie shared room upstairs for a while.

1331
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,360
And then when my dad started raping the kids, like

1332
01:02:50,639 --> 01:02:55,400
right before Jenny turned like ten or something, twelve, I

1333
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,360
don't know, he made the bedrooms downstairs for them. So

1334
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,280
it was almost like there, like I mean they were

1335
01:03:01,639 --> 01:03:03,559
they weren't finished. There was tile on the floor, but

1336
01:03:03,679 --> 01:03:07,039
it was like they were drywall and stuff like that.

1337
01:03:07,119 --> 01:03:10,760
They had separate rooms, and Lizzie was in this room,

1338
01:03:11,079 --> 01:03:13,519
Joey was in the middle, and then Jenny was at

1339
01:03:13,519 --> 01:03:15,760
the far end, and she used to come and seek

1340
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,000
boys and stuff like that, and they do I mean

1341
01:03:18,079 --> 01:03:21,239
Matt message, the one that Lizzie is Lizzie's fiance.

1342
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:24,159
Speaker 5: Now, I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever.

1343
01:03:24,199 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 6: I didn't know, and I wouldn't tell my mom.

1344
01:03:25,679 --> 01:03:27,159
Speaker 1: Because they would tellt me to shut up, and they

1345
01:03:27,239 --> 01:03:29,400
tell me not to come downstairs all the time because

1346
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:29,679
there was.

1347
01:03:30,079 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 5: There was stuff under this.

1348
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:32,559
Speaker 1: I think they were trying to keep me away from

1349
01:03:32,559 --> 01:03:34,800
whatever they were doing. There was stuff under the stairs.

1350
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:36,960
There was fixed spiders, there was go sweat uver, you

1351
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:37,480
know what I'm.

1352
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 5: Saying, and I literally I really believed that they, even.

1353
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,559
Speaker 1: If they weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves,

1354
01:03:44,599 --> 01:03:45,920
you know what I mean, to where they thought that

1355
01:03:46,039 --> 01:03:46,840
this was real.

1356
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 5: You know, or at least maybe she'd lived with that.

1357
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:49,679
Speaker 3: She used to couch like.

1358
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 1: She remember the time she cut slayer into her arm,

1359
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:53,400
and I was like, is that me out with a

1360
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,239
band and she was into heavy metal and she's like no,

1361
01:03:55,719 --> 01:03:58,039
and she's like, I didn't even do that, you know.

1362
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,800
And I can remember Rember her, not not that time,

1363
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:03,639
but I remember her catting her legs and cutting her

1364
01:04:03,719 --> 01:04:05,920
arms and stuff like that, and my mom would send

1365
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:06,679
her to the counselor.

1366
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 6: But because my mom was.

1367
01:04:09,639 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 1: Emotionally disturbed as well, and she had her own bipolar ecaust,

1368
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,639
her friend here or whatever, she would take them out

1369
01:04:15,679 --> 01:04:19,480
because in her mind, counselors and stuff like that were bad.

1370
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:22,079
You know, police were good, always, police were good. The

1371
01:04:22,199 --> 01:04:26,000
counselors were bad. Teachers were bad. They didn't know what

1372
01:04:26,039 --> 01:04:27,719
they were teaching you, They didn't know what they you know,

1373
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:29,800
all this stuff. And she would say that they're gathering

1374
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,559
information on us. They want they want us, they want us,

1375
01:04:32,599 --> 01:04:35,440
they want us. She would say that we're like Christ's bloodline.

1376
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,119
She knew Christ's descendants where you know, all this stuff,

1377
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:39,559
and that's what I had to go around.

1378
01:04:39,599 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 6: I mean, I got past it.

1379
01:04:40,559 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 8: I'm working.

1380
01:04:41,159 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 6: I mean, I worked through it.

1381
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 5: I understand that she had an illness, but I know

1382
01:04:44,079 --> 01:04:46,719
it sounds really bad on my part. Growing up with

1383
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:48,159
my mom the way that she was, you.

1384
01:04:48,199 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 3: Were used to that kind.

1385
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:50,599
Speaker 6: I was used to it, and I had never thought

1386
01:04:50,679 --> 01:04:53,840
that she would hurt anybody because my mom, because you'd

1387
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:54,719
been exposed.

1388
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 5: Right and right, it didn't at all.

1389
01:04:56,679 --> 01:04:58,519
Speaker 1: And I mean, I've been working through that. But at

1390
01:04:58,559 --> 01:05:00,960
the same time, I my foster was like, how would

1391
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,119
you know that that she was gonna, you know, hurt anybody?

1392
01:05:03,199 --> 01:05:06,239
Speaker 5: And She's like, she said that anything that Jenny could

1393
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:06,519
have said.

1394
01:05:06,639 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 1: I mean, if we roll right off my back at

1395
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:11,239
the stake, that I amn't right now, so it did,

1396
01:05:11,519 --> 01:05:12,199
you know what I'm saying.

1397
01:05:12,239 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 5: And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for

1398
01:05:16,119 --> 01:05:18,519
me to get past my past with my mom. Hard

1399
01:05:18,639 --> 01:05:19,679
for me to even say that.

1400
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 1: I can't believe what she was telling me about knowing

1401
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:24,320
Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was

1402
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:24,920
my mom when I.

1403
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,599
Speaker 5: Was conditioned might entell your life to believe that she

1404
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:28,800
was telling me the true. Sure, that's my mom, you know.

1405
01:05:29,679 --> 01:05:32,960
So when Jenny tells me this stuff, I think.

1406
01:05:33,119 --> 01:05:35,519
Speaker 1: What if Mom, I don't I don't want to say

1407
01:05:35,559 --> 01:05:37,360
that I'm I don't want to feel like you or

1408
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:38,400
you guys think that I'm crazy.

1409
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:40,400
Speaker 5: But what if you know, maybe this is you know,

1410
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:42,920
my mom, not my mom telling her.

1411
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:45,159
Speaker 1: This stuff, but like maybe something my mom said it

1412
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:47,599
was true. Maybe you know, we are she was special

1413
01:05:47,679 --> 01:05:49,840
or Jenny is special. That's why she tried to protect

1414
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:50,639
her before, you.

1415
01:05:50,639 --> 01:05:52,039
Speaker 6: Know, And that's why my mom had to be put

1416
01:05:52,079 --> 01:05:52,440
on meds.

1417
01:05:52,559 --> 01:05:55,159
Speaker 1: Was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny

1418
01:05:55,159 --> 01:05:56,760
would know the same thing or be able to do

1419
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:58,599
the same thing or whatever. I don't know, you know

1420
01:05:58,599 --> 01:06:02,119
what I'm saying. And I thought it was some kind

1421
01:06:02,159 --> 01:06:04,239
of religious believe that they both shared or something.

1422
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:04,639
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1423
01:06:05,119 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 1: I can problem, but it's in some way hell of high,

1424
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:13,320
in some way connected to the hypnotism.

1425
01:06:14,519 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 3: What does she think hypnotizement?

1426
01:06:16,119 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 5: She didn't that information to me. She said that she

1427
01:06:19,519 --> 01:06:25,280
told all that she knew biker crews like Virgilies or

1428
01:06:25,519 --> 01:06:26,119
you know, she did that.

1429
01:06:26,119 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: She didn't say Vigeline's, but the family looked like for

1430
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,599
I've ever heard in her life so like stuff.

1431
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 5: Like that that she was affiliating with them.

1432
01:06:32,159 --> 01:06:34,679
Speaker 1: She said that Jim Reel, which I know is a

1433
01:06:34,719 --> 01:06:38,360
bossed that Didjenko and was also the owner of her

1434
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,000
part owner of TJ's where she worked at.

1435
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:42,559
Speaker 5: A golf course for a couple of years, you know,

1436
01:06:42,639 --> 01:06:43,559
seeing her and stuff like that.

1437
01:06:44,119 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 4: She said that he.

1438
01:06:47,119 --> 01:06:49,159
Speaker 1: She wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if

1439
01:06:49,199 --> 01:06:51,159
she if she would go there, and if she was

1440
01:06:51,199 --> 01:06:54,119
actually doing the work that you know that they She

1441
01:06:54,239 --> 01:06:55,840
told me she was like a bartender and a cook

1442
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,360
and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it.

1443
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,880
She's thinking that she was very watchington, thinking she was

1444
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:03,599
doing that kind of work when really she was doing

1445
01:07:03,679 --> 01:07:06,360
something else. She said that was like a lapse in

1446
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:08,599
her brain. She doesn't understand what happened at that time

1447
01:07:08,639 --> 01:07:09,159
in her life.

1448
01:07:09,719 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 5: She asked me if I remembered her this was all

1449
01:07:12,559 --> 01:07:18,280
starry night. She she said, I think, Lauren, that I

1450
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:22,159
used to kill people, And I said I really.

1451
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 6: I literally wrote it off.

1452
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 1: As her just being either drunk or me not recognizing

1453
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,039
it as an issue, like she was saying it almost

1454
01:07:29,519 --> 01:07:31,079
not in a joking manner.

1455
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 6: But.

1456
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 5: Not to where it's like, Lauren, I think I used

1457
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:35,960
to kill people. You need to, you know, help me

1458
01:07:36,039 --> 01:07:37,599
or something. You know what she was, and I think

1459
01:07:37,639 --> 01:07:39,880
she used to kill people. I'm like, Jenny, you know,

1460
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:41,320
what are you where are you getting this from? And

1461
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:43,559
she's like, I don't know. I just she's like, I

1462
01:07:43,599 --> 01:07:44,320
don't understand.

1463
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,119
Speaker 6: I don't remember. I don't remember.

1464
01:07:46,239 --> 01:07:48,119
Speaker 1: And then she said, she said, like I don't remember

1465
01:07:48,199 --> 01:07:50,440
that like three times, you know, in a row. And

1466
01:07:50,519 --> 01:07:52,800
then she said, I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny,

1467
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:55,480
you know, and I remember growing up like she used

1468
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:57,400
to have like I know it sounds stupid, but she

1469
01:07:57,559 --> 01:07:59,480
used to do like candle things in her room and

1470
01:07:59,599 --> 01:08:01,320
like she walk around the camp like you know what

1471
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:02,760
I'm saying, like mirrd shit like that.

1472
01:08:03,079 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 6: Like sands almost type yeah, like a sing as or.

1473
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,039
Speaker 1: Like a demonic something or other. But I mean she

1474
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:13,480
at that time, I know that she had had some

1475
01:08:13,599 --> 01:08:15,679
experiences with drugs. I don't know what because I was

1476
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:17,880
nine years younger, but I know, I mean my mom

1477
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:19,960
boss a pot in the house. She found plants and

1478
01:08:20,079 --> 01:08:22,039
she threw them against the wall because they were all

1479
01:08:22,079 --> 01:08:25,479
in the basement. The kids, me and my old my

1480
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,239
Lizzie shared room upstairs for a while. And then when

1481
01:08:29,239 --> 01:08:34,279
my dad started raping the kids, like right before Jenny

1482
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:36,479
turned like ten or something, twelve, I don't know, he

1483
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,439
made the bedrooms downstairs for them. So it was almost

1484
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,800
like they're like, I mean they were they weren't finished.

1485
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:44,520
There was tile on the floor, but it was like

1486
01:08:46,119 --> 01:08:48,640
they were drywall and stuff like that. They had separate rooms,

1487
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:52,479
and Lizzie was in this room, Joey was in the middle,

1488
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,199
and then Jenny was at the fire end. And she

1489
01:08:55,359 --> 01:08:57,239
used to come and seek boys and stuff like that,

1490
01:08:57,359 --> 01:08:59,479
and they do I mean Matt Vessige, the one that

1491
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:01,960
is Lizzie's fiance now.

1492
01:09:02,279 --> 01:09:05,119
Speaker 5: And like I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever.

1493
01:09:05,199 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 1: I didn't know, and I wouldn't tell my mom because

1494
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:08,359
they would tell me to shut up, and they tell

1495
01:09:08,399 --> 01:09:10,479
me not to come downstairs all the time because there

1496
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:12,640
was there was stuff under I think they were trying

1497
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:14,720
to keep me away from whatever they were doing. There

1498
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:16,920
was stuff under the stairs. There was fixed spiders, there

1499
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:19,199
was go sweat up you know what I'm saying. And

1500
01:09:19,319 --> 01:09:22,560
I literally I really believe that they even if they

1501
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:25,600
weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves, you

1502
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:27,039
know what I mean to where they thought that this

1503
01:09:27,239 --> 01:09:29,600
was real, you know, or at least maybe she'd live

1504
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:31,359
with that. She used to cut, like she remember one

1505
01:09:31,399 --> 01:09:33,520
time she cut slayer into her arm and I was like,

1506
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:34,920
is that me out with a band? And she was

1507
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:37,079
into heavy metal and she's like no, and she's like,

1508
01:09:37,159 --> 01:09:40,600
I didn't even do this, you know. And I can

1509
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:42,880
remember her not that time, but.

1510
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:45,079
Speaker 6: I remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms.

1511
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 5: And stuff like that, and my mom would send her

1512
01:09:47,039 --> 01:09:47,640
to the counselor.

1513
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:51,479
Speaker 1: But because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well, and

1514
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:55,079
she had her own bipolar schizophone air or whatever, she

1515
01:09:55,159 --> 01:09:58,680
would take them out because in her mind, counselors and

1516
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,479
stuff like that were bad. You know, police were good, always,

1517
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,720
please were good. The counselors were bad. Teachers were bad.

1518
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:07,399
They didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't

1519
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,079
know what they you know, all this stuff. And she

1520
01:10:09,079 --> 01:10:11,720
would say that they're gathering information on us. They want

1521
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:13,600
they want us, they want us, they want us. She

1522
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,520
would say that we're like Christ's bloodline. She knew Christ's

1523
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:19,039
descendants where you know, all this stuff, and that's what

1524
01:10:19,119 --> 01:10:20,800
I had to go around. I mean, I got pasted it.

1525
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 5: I'm working. I mean, I worked through it. I understand

1526
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:23,960
that she had an illness.

1527
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:23,760
Speaker 1: But.

1528
01:10:25,239 --> 01:10:27,399
Speaker 5: I know it sounds really bad on my part, But

1529
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:29,520
growing up with my mom the way that she was.

1530
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:30,119
Speaker 6: You were used to that.

1531
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:32,199
Speaker 5: I was used to it, and I'd never thought that

1532
01:10:32,279 --> 01:10:33,760
she would hurt anybody because my mom.

1533
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:36,199
Speaker 6: Never alarmed me. Because you've been explosed right and.

1534
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:39,079
Speaker 5: Right, it didn't at all. And I mean, I've been

1535
01:10:39,159 --> 01:10:41,520
working through that. But at the same time, I mean my.

1536
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:43,720
Speaker 1: Fast was like, how would you know that she was gonna,

1537
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,520
you know, hurt anybody? And She's like, she said that

1538
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:48,560
anything that Jenny could have said. I mean, if we

1539
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:50,439
grow right off my back at the state that I

1540
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,680
amn't right now, so it did, you know what I'm saying.

1541
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:57,520
Speaker 5: And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for

1542
01:10:57,600 --> 01:10:59,079
me to get past my past.

1543
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,279
Speaker 1: With my mom for me to even say that, I

1544
01:11:01,359 --> 01:11:03,600
can't believe what she was telling me about knowing Keith

1545
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:05,920
Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was my

1546
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:07,640
mom when I was conditioned my entire her life to

1547
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:09,039
believe that she was telling me the true.

1548
01:11:09,119 --> 01:11:10,319
Speaker 6: Sure, that's my mom, you know.

1549
01:11:11,159 --> 01:11:13,079
Speaker 5: So when Jenny tells me this stuff.

1550
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 1: I think, what if Mom, I don't I don't want

1551
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:18,520
to say that I'm I don't want to feel like

1552
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:20,399
you or you guys think that I'm crazy. But what

1553
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:22,840
if you know, maybe this is you know, my mom,

1554
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:25,720
not my mom telling her this stuff. But like maybe

1555
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:27,600
something my mom said it us true. Maybe you know

1556
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,239
we are She was special or Jenny is special. That's

1557
01:11:30,239 --> 01:11:32,279
why she tried to protect her before, you know, And

1558
01:11:32,399 --> 01:11:33,920
that's why my mom had to be put on METS.

1559
01:11:34,039 --> 01:11:36,640
Was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny

1560
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:38,239
would know the same thing or be able to do

1561
01:11:38,359 --> 01:11:39,239
the same thing or whatever.

1562
01:11:39,319 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 5: I don't know, you know what I'm saying. And I

1563
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:44,640
thought it was some kind of religious belief that they

1564
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:45,720
both shared or something.

1565
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:46,119
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1566
01:11:47,319 --> 01:11:51,640
Speaker 2: Their mother's unchecked mental illness had set the stage. Jennifer's

1567
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:55,640
life was a perfect storm, and she knew.

1568
01:11:55,439 --> 01:12:01,640
Speaker 3: It well, she need to know anything else you can

1569
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:06,000
think of. It bought a soul incident, and so now

1570
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:06,600
we should have heard you.

1571
01:12:07,199 --> 01:12:09,560
Speaker 13: She lived in my mom's moth, she cycle mixture, even

1572
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:10,800
due to nobody else don't want it.

1573
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:25,000
Speaker 5: And there it is.

1574
01:12:26,159 --> 01:12:33,520
Speaker 2: Hearing these final words is haunting her admission. I should

1575
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:39,439
have never had kids. It's not just a regret, it's

1576
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:44,720
the very moment of Jennifer's realization about the generational cycle

1577
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:49,920
of trauma and mental illness. She saw an experience the

1578
01:12:50,039 --> 01:12:53,800
fallout of her own mother's struggle, lived through it, and

1579
01:12:54,359 --> 01:12:58,560
yet found herself walking down a similar path, trapped by

1580
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:03,640
the very symptoms she once feared. Jennifer was raised by

1581
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:07,680
someone incapable of loving, protecting, and caring for her in

1582
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,640
the way every child deserves. This was a parent who

1583
01:13:12,199 --> 01:13:15,800
not only failed to protect, but often directly exposed them

1584
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:21,359
to traumatic experiences. After living through that trauma, this same

1585
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:27,399
parent deterred her children from seeking mental health services. Perhaps

1586
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:30,680
Jennifer was set up to fail from the very start.

1587
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:34,960
In September of two thousand and seven, about seven months

1588
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:38,640
after the tragic murder's, thirty year old Jennifer Kukla went

1589
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:42,159
to trial for two counts of first degree murder. Three

1590
01:13:42,319 --> 01:13:46,399
separate psychologists testified on her behalf, stating that she was

1591
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:50,000
legally insane at the time of the killings and therefore

1592
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:55,439
not criminally responsible. They felt she should be found guilty

1593
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:59,800
by reason of insanity and placed in a psychiatric facility.

1594
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:05,439
The jury, though, didn't buy it. They cited the feeble

1595
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:11,520
attempt at suicide, the inconsistencies in Jennifer's police interview compared

1596
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:15,600
to her psych interviews, and even witnessed testimony from her

1597
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:19,760
employer who remembered Jennifer saying she could just kill her

1598
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:23,880
kids during a conversation about being late for work because

1599
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:27,960
of them. To top it off, even if Jennifer had

1600
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:32,680
been suffering an acute psychotic episode that day, under Michigan law,

1601
01:14:33,359 --> 01:14:37,239
if that episode is triggered by drinking alcohol, it's not

1602
01:14:37,359 --> 01:14:42,199
a defense. The jury rendered a guilty verdict while also

1603
01:14:42,279 --> 01:14:46,720
acknowledging the obvious mental illness. She was sentenced to life

1604
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:51,279
in prison without the possibility of parole, but with the

1605
01:14:51,399 --> 01:14:55,560
promise that she would receive at least some mental health care.

1606
01:14:56,720 --> 01:15:00,439
The police officers who responded to the gruesome scene, we'll

1607
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:04,560
never get the image out of their heads. Jennifer asked

1608
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:08,279
for her brain to be erased, and I'm sure those

1609
01:15:08,319 --> 01:15:12,239
officers wish for the very same thing. They remember seeing

1610
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:15,800
the two little girls laying side by side in their

1611
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:21,199
small bedroom surrounded by their toys, their books, their artwork,

1612
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:26,840
and even photos of them smiling with their mom. One

1613
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:32,640
deputy said this, you can only imagine their lifestyle. You

1614
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:36,199
could see that they didn't have much, but what they

1615
01:15:36,279 --> 01:15:41,600
did have they seemed to appreciate. They seemed like they

1616
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:46,800
were happy, cute girls. You have to try hard not

1617
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:51,760
to think about it rationally. That was an irrational act.

1618
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,199
Speaker 3: You never let it go.

1619
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:41,640
Speaker 2: All right, I'll tell you one little thing. The show

1620
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:46,039
that's coming up is called this doesn't happen to people

1621
01:16:46,239 --> 01:16:48,560
like me. I know it's a very long title. Anyway,

1622
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:51,279
go find it on Apple and Spotify and subscribe.

1623
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:52,239
Speaker 8: Do it now.

1624
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 2: I will say one more thing, because I know how

1625
01:17:15,039 --> 01:17:18,479
you people operate. Yes, the show will be available on

1626
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:21,800
Plus commercial free of course, and it's gonna be on

1627
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:25,560
every tier as well, so no more mix ups. But

1628
01:17:26,359 --> 01:17:30,960
you do help us out tremendously still by subscribing on Apple.

1629
01:17:32,600 --> 01:19:03,039
Speaker 3: And Spotify. Replicated st