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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Afternoon, Young girl's pennies
Speaker 6: started to go missing, Sexual assaults began to occur, and
Speaker 6: then female bodies were found. Soon this quiet town Tweed,
Speaker 6: Ontario was in panic. What's even more shocking was when
Speaker 6: an upstanding residence stood accused of the assaults. This was
Speaker 6: not just any man, but a pillar of the community,
Speaker 6: a decorated military pilot who had flown Canadian Forces VIP
Speaker 6: aircraft for dignitaries such as the Queen of England, Prince Philip,
Speaker 6: the Governor General, and the Prime Minister of Canada. This
Speaker 6: is the story of serial killer Russell Williams, the elite
Speaker 6: pilot of Canada's Air Force one and the innocent victims
Speaker 6: he murdered. Unlike other serial killers, Williams seemed very unaffected
Speaker 6: about his crimes and leading two separate lives.
Speaker 3: Alan R. Warren describes a secret life, including the abductions,
Speaker 3: rape and murders that were unleashed on an unsuspecting community.
Speaker 3: Included are letters written to the victims by Williams and
Speaker 3: descriptions of the assaults and rapes as seen on videos
Speaker 3: and photos taken by Williams during the attacks. The book
Speaker 3: that we're featuring this afternoon is Above Suspicion, The True
Speaker 3: Story of serial killer Russell Williams, with my special guest,
Speaker 3: journalist and author and podcaster Alan R. Warren. Welcome to
Speaker 3: the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to
Speaker 3: this interview. Alan R. Warren.
Speaker 5: Well, thanks very much, Dan, it's always good to talk
Speaker 5: to you.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you very much. Congratulations on your first book.
Speaker 3: And you picked a heck of a subject, a colonel
Speaker 3: or former colonel Russell Williams. Now tell us just a
Speaker 3: little bit briefly without giving anything really away, but what
Speaker 3: brought you to this story? Why did you choose Russell
Speaker 3: Williams and this story to write above suspicion.
Speaker 5: Well, I think that it was ignored a lot, and
Speaker 5: it was kind of overshadowed because of Paul Bernardo and
Speaker 5: that whole thing that was going on. And I think
Speaker 5: there was a lot of things about this case that
Speaker 5: never came out and people didn't get the story, and
Speaker 5: I just I thought that there wasn't enough done about it,
Speaker 5: and I think we needed to know more because this
Speaker 5: was a very important man who had a very important
Speaker 5: job in our country and he was getting away with
Speaker 5: unbelievable crimes.
Speaker 3: Now take us back, as you do. You have information
Speaker 3: about Russell Williams and the breakup of his parents and
Speaker 3: also him studying economics in school. So take us back
Speaker 3: before all the military, even before he got the bug
Speaker 3: to tell us a little bit about Russell Williams growing up,
Speaker 3: going to school. Tell us a little bit out what
Speaker 3: as you write in the book.
Speaker 5: Well, Russell was born in England in Bromsgrove and in
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty three, and he had a little brother that
Speaker 5: was born two years behind him. And when he was
Speaker 5: about six his parents moved from England to Chalk River
Speaker 5: and that was because his dad had a PhD and metallurgy,
Speaker 5: and so he was able to get a job at
Speaker 5: Canada's premier nuclear facility by Chalk River, and that facility
Speaker 5: was doing things like the US Manhattan Project and very
Speaker 5: big involved in the war. So he took that job,
Speaker 5: moved the family over, and they moved to Chalk River.
Speaker 5: And you know, that was about nineteen sixty nine, and
Speaker 5: his mother was pretty much a stay at home mother,
Speaker 5: but she wanted to do more, and so what she
Speaker 5: did was she started her own business and it was
Speaker 5: working with children and children with difficulties, and this was
Speaker 5: kind of unheard of, and what it did was, at
Speaker 5: first it created a little rift in the community because
Speaker 5: in the sixties, what good wife would go start a
Speaker 5: business and ignore her family or not take care of
Speaker 5: her husband and kids. That was kind of the tone
Speaker 5: back then, and so in mainstream community she wasn't real popular. Now.
Speaker 5: At the same time this happened, the nuclear plant happened
Speaker 5: to take on a Czechoslovakian man, Jerry Sooka, and so
Speaker 5: him and his wife moved to the same Chalk River
Speaker 5: to do the same type of job because they were
Speaker 5: both immigrants, and probably because Russell William's mother was feeling
Speaker 5: isolated in the community, they tended to lock onto each
Speaker 5: other and become good friends. And this was a they
Speaker 5: did everything together. And this is where there's a little
Speaker 5: bit of talk about the family, you know, because there
Speaker 5: was a swinger sort of club going on in kind
Speaker 5: of an underground part of the city, the town, and
Speaker 5: that they were said to be part of that, and
Speaker 5: so that was, you know what, we don't know how
Speaker 5: much truth is in that. That's why I said there
Speaker 5: was a rumor. We don't know. But they spent a
Speaker 5: lot of time together and did everything together, and the
Speaker 5: boys grew up pretty normal. Russell, for instance, he played
Speaker 5: the piano, he belonged to the school band, he delivered newspapers,
Speaker 5: always did things right, his grades were quite good. It
Speaker 5: was quiet, very very respectful. People said he had great
Speaker 5: manners as a kid, behaved quite well. Uh, never got
Speaker 5: himself into trouble. You know. It was kind of an
Speaker 5: all in all, pretty pretty good family scenario at that point.
Speaker 5: But where it changed was probably within a year of
Speaker 5: them being there. For for some reason, his mother, Russell
Speaker 5: Williams's mother took Russell and his brother and moved out
Speaker 5: of the house, and the story around town was that
Speaker 5: his father was having an affair with missus Sofka, the
Speaker 5: Czech couple that came over as well. So she filed
Speaker 5: for divorce, and within four months the father and missus
Speaker 5: Sofka were together. And because again there was so much
Speaker 5: negative talk about that kind that was a scandal in
Speaker 5: the sixties, and so they moved to New York. They
Speaker 5: up and left, and the mother ended up getting together
Speaker 5: with mister Soka and in fact marrying them, so they
Speaker 5: swapped partners. Yeah, And because of the again more talk,
Speaker 5: and because nobody would take their kids to her business,
Speaker 5: she up and moved to Toronto. So that's kind of
Speaker 5: the early days in Canada when they were small and
Speaker 5: what happened with the parents, and it's so it's left.
Speaker 5: You know, his father with the new wife has moved
Speaker 5: to New York pretty much dropped out of sight, and
Speaker 5: Russell and his brother or living with the mother with
Speaker 5: a new new father stepfather in Toronto.
Speaker 3: Now now you talk about the basic normalcy of everything
Speaker 3: except for this. Again, how traumatic it was and what
Speaker 3: effect it had on Russell's unknown, we don't really know.
Speaker 3: But it didn't affect him enough to affect negatively his education.
Speaker 3: So you do talk about what he does and what
Speaker 3: he studies, and then how he becomes interested in the
Speaker 3: military and where he is at that time to be
Speaker 3: interested in this military. Tell us a little bit more
Speaker 3: about that. And his best friend Foker.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Jeff the Core, He was his best friend from
Speaker 5: school and has he suggested they used to lay on
Speaker 5: the field because when they lived in Chalk River as kids.
Speaker 5: First of all, they're really close to Camp Petawalah, and
Speaker 5: all the military jets and planes and everything would fly
Speaker 5: over all the time, and they used to lay on
Speaker 5: the mounds on the different buildings and mountains and different
Speaker 5: areas and watch all these flights and pretend to fly.
Speaker 5: And they were just really into it as kids. But
Speaker 5: when they got into the school school and even into college,
Speaker 5: none of them went for that sort of thing. They
Speaker 5: all headed into the In fact, Russell went into economics
Speaker 5: and did four years. His brother became a phg d.
Speaker 5: He's a family doctor. So they didn't really take it serious,
Speaker 5: but they were really involved in it excited them. And
Speaker 5: just when he graduated from the university, and not even
Speaker 5: before they're out of the dorm, he shared the same
Speaker 5: dorm room with Jeff. His friend, and he came in
Speaker 5: and said he's going to join the Air Force. And
Speaker 5: Jeff was like, what's that all about? Right, this is crazy,
Speaker 5: And in Jeff's words, he said that he thought because
Speaker 5: at that time, we're in the eighties and Top Gun
Speaker 5: was a big movie and that whole thing was going
Speaker 5: on with Tom Cruise, and he thought that he was
Speaker 5: just you know, catching the wave, as you'd say, and
Speaker 5: kind of getting into it. It's the trend. He's excited.
Speaker 5: He wants to be that pilot, you know, that sort
Speaker 5: of thing. And he didn't take him seriously. So it
Speaker 5: was a surprise, one of the first of many that
Speaker 5: was going to happen. And so he went that direction
Speaker 5: and Jeff said, well, you know, he's my best friend
Speaker 5: and I'm there for you. Man. It was these kind
Speaker 5: of words and if that's what you want to do,
Speaker 5: do it, But in his heart he thought it was
Speaker 5: last year.
Speaker 3: Now you talk about also his opinion and his observations
Speaker 3: in terms of Russell Williams terms of a romantic person,
Speaker 3: a dating person, sexually attracted to women and dating tell
Speaker 3: us about what the real situation was in his opinion,
Speaker 3: and what his surprise was with an announcement from Russell.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, so it continued, you know, And they were
Speaker 5: in dorm for the whole four years together, so they
Speaker 5: shared a room and and in fact, Russell had only
Speaker 5: one girlfriend excuse me, through high school and early college,
Speaker 5: and she had played in the band as well, and
Speaker 5: she was very nice, quiet, and they got along, seemed
Speaker 5: very well, and then they just suddenly broke up. It
Speaker 5: was over. He never dated anybody else and never went
Speaker 5: on parties. In fact, he was the one that run
Speaker 5: the house. They had six roommates. He was the one
Speaker 5: that gave everybody schedules. This is this is who cooks today,
Speaker 5: this is who gets the groceries. Here's zoo cleans. He
Speaker 5: was very organized. He refolded his clothes all the time,
Speaker 5: and even when they had little parties in the dorm room,
Speaker 5: he would just sit in the back and fold his
Speaker 5: clothes and refold them over and over all night long.
Speaker 5: So he was just very quiet, and they figured he
Speaker 5: was a little more shy. So nothing, and all of
Speaker 5: a sudden, so he you know, they graduate, he gets
Speaker 5: into the Air Force, and this is the late eighties,
Speaker 5: and all of a sudden he comes up to Jeff
Speaker 5: and says I'm getting married. I want you to be
Speaker 5: my best man. And Jeff was like, what, who? I
Speaker 5: haven't even met anybody like who you? And he introduced
Speaker 5: him to Mary Elizabeth Harriman, who he ended up marrying
Speaker 5: that July. So it took them from February to July
Speaker 5: to be made and it came out of the blue.
Speaker 5: And that was again another one of those surprises that
Speaker 5: took him off God, and he couldn't figure it out
Speaker 5: where this person came from. He liked Barry. She seemed
Speaker 5: very polite, very nice, She was a smart girl, she
Speaker 5: was going for her degree and pretty pretty like. He
Speaker 5: had nothing bad to say about her, and they seemed
Speaker 5: to get along quite well. But it was just where
Speaker 5: did this come from? It was like the Air Force thing,
Speaker 5: Where did that come from? And so that was two
Speaker 5: big shocks on him. And I'm not sure. Jeff seems
Speaker 5: to be pretty easy going and when you talk to him,
Speaker 5: he seems to be pretty oh, okay, I can take
Speaker 5: that type person. So he's not offended by it, but
Speaker 5: just really surprised that this is the same guy that
Speaker 5: he lived with for six years and they did everything
Speaker 5: together type thing. Where did you meet her?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 5: How did this happen?
Speaker 3: M hm, you say that you married?
Speaker 5: Go ahead, sorry, yeah no, And I was just gonna say,
Speaker 5: because we can step back a little and when they're
Speaker 5: in the economics class. Both Russell Williams and Paul Bernardo
Speaker 5: were in the same classes together, same economics programs, same everything.
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Speaker 2: Necessarily, media lost the arm conditions.
Speaker 5: Eating Plus Claims magazine as well as The Star and
Speaker 5: a few others had published later that they were friends.
Speaker 5: Now Jeff just denies that completely because he said that
Speaker 5: at most they would have maybe been to the same
Speaker 5: frat party or you know, the same sort of hangout
Speaker 5: or the pubbet at the at the college. But they
Speaker 5: were not friends, and they probably didn't know each other,
Speaker 5: because he said he would have known because they did
Speaker 5: everything together. And I take that as as truth. I
Speaker 5: think he's telling me the truth. But the other side
Speaker 5: to that is, if he didn't know about this woman
Speaker 5: that all of a sudden became his wife, and he
Speaker 5: didn't know about the Air Force that all of a
Speaker 5: sudden became his career, maybe he had at that time
Speaker 5: some secrets that he was running a secondary life somehow
Speaker 5: that he could make it on you know, not unseeable
Speaker 5: to Jeff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, now you talk about too, to make sure no one,
Speaker 3: everyone understands that this was not a pushover this woman
Speaker 3: and she was no dummy. She was the associate director
Speaker 3: of the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada. Here she's
Speaker 3: five years older than him, and they moved to a
Speaker 3: suburb of Ottawa, which is a capital of Canada's you write,
Speaker 3: called Orleans, Ontario. And he is posted at that time
Speaker 3: as Director of Air Requirements at the National Defense Headquarters.
Speaker 3: And you go on, tell us some of the really
Speaker 3: important things you talk about in nineteen ninety four, tell
Speaker 3: us some of the stuff that he is involved with
Speaker 3: militarily and the status that.
Speaker 5: He achieves excuse me, well, probably the biggest thing and
Speaker 5: the biggest boost for him in his career and his
Speaker 5: whole persona of getting the parents that he ended up
Speaker 5: getting was probably him going to uh you know, United
Speaker 5: Arab Emirates and he was in the secret camp, the
Speaker 5: secret base, and he was made commander of that and
Speaker 5: that that that was a secret battle with Afghanistan. And
Speaker 5: so he was there for six months and when he
Speaker 5: came back was really when he was placed almost immediately
Speaker 5: in charge of Trenton. So that was probably the biggest
Speaker 5: boost for him. And the other thing is he was
Speaker 5: going for his masters in defense, and if you look
Speaker 5: at his master's deposition, his whole his whole thesis about
Speaker 5: going in and attacking first in Afghanistan and taking taking over.
Speaker 5: He was he was a warhawk, and he was very
Speaker 5: aggressive in his thinking toward battle, reorganized in that way.
Speaker 5: And so he really rose to the top almost immediately
Speaker 5: because they what he had did in the Secret base
Speaker 5: as well as his thesis made him look like he
Speaker 5: could be a war general down in the US easily,
Speaker 5: and they thought he would work really well with the Americans.
Speaker 5: So he was the right person and at the same
Speaker 5: time he was able to sell himself publicly, so he
Speaker 5: showed up at all the different events, the charities would
Speaker 5: shake hands. He had a really good presence on TV. Tall,
Speaker 5: good looking, always pristine, dressed well, well behaved, you know,
Speaker 5: perfect manners. He was the perfect candidate to go where
Speaker 5: he became the head of the largest air force base
Speaker 5: in Canada.
Speaker 3: Right now, you talk about the reason why, the main
Speaker 3: reason why Russell and his wife bought a cottage in Tweed, Ontario,
Speaker 3: which again is just a little community. And this is
Speaker 3: because he was at the Trenton Air Force Base five
Speaker 3: days a week. It's made for a big commute or
Speaker 3: a long commute, so he won the short neck commute.
Speaker 3: But then you talk about a series of unusual break
Speaker 3: and enters that occur in Tweed. So tell us about
Speaker 3: this purchase of the cottage and how are Russell and
Speaker 3: his wife getting along?
Speaker 5: By all reports, well, according to the neighbors in Orleans
Speaker 5: outside of Ottawa, where they lived, they all said they
Speaker 5: were great. They were a perfect couple or a power couple.
Speaker 5: In fact, the comments were like she would come home
Speaker 5: from one of her trips because she did travel a
Speaker 5: lot with the Heart and Stroke Foundation. She would come home,
Speaker 5: he would run out the door, carry her suitcases and
Speaker 5: in for her, hold the doors open. Always always a gentleman.
Speaker 5: And when they'd go over to the neighbors for coffee,
Speaker 5: he would always get up and get get get her coffee,
Speaker 5: or get her drink for her, refill it, carry it
Speaker 5: for hold the chairs, take her jacket. He was extremely
Speaker 5: well mannered, and the neighbors thought, what a nice, nice
Speaker 5: guy he was, because he was quiet, he was polite,
Speaker 5: and he was so good to his wife, and yet
Speaker 5: and a good, good military man. And she talked more
Speaker 5: than they did as couples, so most of the neighbors
Speaker 5: tended to get more information from her and more about
Speaker 5: them as a couple from her. And but again they
Speaker 5: loved her too. She was a caring person. She wanted
Speaker 5: to be a you know, a great help in the
Speaker 5: health community. And she rose quite quickly up to being
Speaker 5: one of the executives of the Heart and Stroke Foundation.
Speaker 5: So they were like, consider it the perfect couple.
Speaker 3: Yeah, now we talked about those a series of unusual
Speaker 3: breaking enners and tell us why they're unusual. And this
Speaker 3: is in the fall of two thousand and seven, and
Speaker 3: you can introduce a very interesting character, very important to
Speaker 3: the story, Larry Jones. So tell us what happens in
Speaker 3: these break and entners. Who notices and who doesn't notice?
Speaker 3: In the fall of two thousand and seven.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, there was we're kind of blurry on
Speaker 5: exactly how many happened. And I'll explain this. There would
Speaker 5: be people that would come home, for instance, and not
Speaker 5: notice break in the house looked totally fine. They've they've
Speaker 5: been away for a weekend, or they've done something and
Speaker 5: they come home, everything says, is no breaking, nothing missing.
Speaker 5: Everything seemed normal. And when people would find something missing,
Speaker 5: it tended to be something like some underwear or a
Speaker 5: bathing suit or you know, minor things. And at first
Speaker 5: people looked at it like they misplaced it, they lost it,
Speaker 5: something happened to it, and they didn't call the cops, right,
Speaker 5: So there was quite a few of those, And how
Speaker 5: we found out was later, once all of the terror
Speaker 5: of the break ins hit, everybody started thinking back, oh,
Speaker 5: remember I lost this when I lost that, So we're
Speaker 5: sort of lost it where it started and how much
Speaker 5: it was. But what we do know is how he
Speaker 5: would specifically scope out places and break and enter and
Speaker 5: and nobody would notice. He would he would do it
Speaker 5: with precision and take undergarments and sneak back out. And
Speaker 5: you know, the first actually the first ones that we
Speaker 5: knew know about, would be his, the Murdochs, the neighbors,
Speaker 5: and Tweed the one neighbors and he, uh, he went
Speaker 5: in and he took all the little the twelve year
Speaker 5: old girl's underwear drawer, completely emptied it. And in fact,
Speaker 5: when they got back the second time from a trip,
Speaker 5: the daughter came down and said, you know, I know,
Speaker 5: my underwear draw's empty. And of course the parents and
Speaker 5: both of them when you talked to him and said, well,
Speaker 5: you know, she's never been the neatest and the first
Speaker 5: thing you say is that you check the laundry basket
Speaker 5: or maybe the floor, you know, you know, because that's
Speaker 5: how she was. But when the mother realized that there
Speaker 5: wasn't one pair of her underwear left was the first
Speaker 5: time that she brought it up. So she called the police,
Speaker 5: and then the police came and see and this is
Speaker 5: where it kind of broke because when she found out
Speaker 5: about this, she went to the town meeting and told
Speaker 5: everybody because the police had been keeping it secret, so
Speaker 5: it hadn't been out in the media. People weren't realizing
Speaker 5: this was going on, and she brought it up at
Speaker 5: the town meeting, and of course other people jumped on
Speaker 5: and people started reporting. The police. Now when we talk
Speaker 5: to them, said that only about fifteen percent of those
Speaker 5: break ins were reported, right, that's the rest of So
Speaker 5: he was doing it very very well. And not to mention,
Speaker 5: a lot of the neighbors trusted him. He is a colonel.
Speaker 5: He's upstanding man, a very nice, polite man. And they
Speaker 5: would go away. They would tell him, you know, the
Speaker 5: Murdochs all the other neighbors would say, oh, yeah, we're
Speaker 5: going away this week. We're going somewhere for two days.
Speaker 5: Keep an eye in the house. Sure, I never thought
Speaker 5: second about it. Why wouldn't you. So that's how that
Speaker 5: That's how it went. Now. The other thing is too
Speaker 5: we looked at at that time and we were thinking
Speaker 5: Tweed is where he started. But actually in Orleans, the
Speaker 5: same sort of thing had been going on a few
Speaker 5: years before after they had moved to Orleans, but the
Speaker 5: police did not tie the two together. And you know,
Speaker 5: I'm not exactly sure why, maybe just the distance and
Speaker 5: the type of policing and how involved they were with
Speaker 5: each other's communities. But up in Ottawa, their break ins
Speaker 5: were not tied in with tweeds break ins.
Speaker 3: Right, Let's move on to the after the trip to Alaska,
Speaker 3: his first attack. So you tell talk and describe his
Speaker 3: first attack while the next day at a thirty in
Speaker 3: the mornings at a meeting with the Criminal Intelligence Service
Speaker 3: of Ontario. Incredibly, so tell us.
Speaker 5: About his first attack. Yeah, he well, you know, as
Speaker 5: soon as he got back from Alaska, which was another
Speaker 5: high pressured sort of how don't what you call it?
Speaker 5: A project that he was involved with. And it seems
Speaker 5: to go all the way through as you go through
Speaker 5: his history, as he got higher rank and more and
Speaker 5: more pressure and more responsibility, the attacks and the things
Speaker 5: he did became much more violent and much more aggressive.
Speaker 5: And this was one of them. This is really kind
Speaker 5: of the stepping stone was after Alaska, within you know,
Speaker 5: a couple of hours from his trip, he had already
Speaker 5: attacked this girl and tied her up, blindfold her and
Speaker 5: assaulted her. And now so this was kind of a
Speaker 5: step older from what he was doing before. Now he
Speaker 5: still would take a lot of her undergarments, and he
Speaker 5: had a strange way about this too. He would have
Speaker 5: them tied up in a chair and blindfold it, and
Speaker 5: he would take all their clothing and he would try
Speaker 5: all of the different clothing on himself as well as
Speaker 5: the girl and take pictures. So it's not like he
Speaker 5: was just having sex with them or assaulting them or
Speaker 5: doing something like that. He would actually be doing It's
Speaker 5: almost like a photo shoot, spread or catalog it. He
Speaker 5: would put them all in order. He would take diferent
Speaker 5: outfits and put them together and take pictures and film
Speaker 5: wearing it. And he seemed to have this obsession which
Speaker 5: was kind of unusual, you know, because you could see
Speaker 5: him taking undergarments and different girls clothing, you know, maybe
Speaker 5: as a trophy or as different reasons, but actually be
Speaker 5: taking them and trying them on. And then he wanted
Speaker 5: to do it in front of them. And because he
Speaker 5: would have them blindfold it, he would make them touch
Speaker 5: him wearing it, so he'd be wearing their panties and
Speaker 5: bra and make them with a hand feel his body
Speaker 5: wearing their clothes.
Speaker 3: And he does take his time and he takes a
Speaker 3: lot of photos. We're talking a lot of photos.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And in fact, we had over seven thousand
Speaker 5: hours of videos and I can't tell you how many
Speaker 5: gigabytes of pictures that were saved on the computer, tons
Speaker 5: and tons. What he would do is set up the tripod.
Speaker 5: Once he's got the girl tied up, secured and he
Speaker 5: feels comfortable, then he would always set up the tripod
Speaker 5: and the camcorder, and then he would take his own
Speaker 5: clothes off. And he always had a ski mask, a
Speaker 5: black mask. He would take that off so on camera
Speaker 5: when he was filming, you could see him. There was
Speaker 5: no hidden he wasn't hiding himself from the camera. Then
Speaker 5: he would have steel cameras, two of them, and he
Speaker 5: would throw them on the chair or the bed wherever
Speaker 5: they were tied up, and he would be filming the
Speaker 5: whole process. But anything that super excited him, he would stop,
Speaker 5: pick up the camera and start taking pictures. And it
Speaker 5: seemed to be the things that really excited him were
Speaker 5: certain angles that the clothing was at. So he would
Speaker 5: lay under let's say, the right breast and take like
Speaker 5: eighty pictures, you know, just a certain angle, or whenever
Speaker 5: he got blood. So there was times when he assaulted
Speaker 5: or he was hitting them and blood would come out,
Speaker 5: or they would fall to the ground. He would stop
Speaker 5: and take a big ball of pictures. He was obsessed
Speaker 5: with getting still shots of the pain.
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Speaker 3: Needless to say, his behavior escalates. We will talk about
Speaker 3: it as you do what they've discovered later because and
Speaker 3: we'll say why they discover all of this information that's
Speaker 3: in this incredible book. Let's talk about the murder of
Speaker 3: Corporal Marie France come o, and and let's talk about
Speaker 3: how he met her, how they wound up working together
Speaker 3: in two thousand and nine, and then tell us a
Speaker 3: little bit about his method of operation and how he
Speaker 3: makes sure that well, some of the will say the
Speaker 3: work that he does beforehand to pick and select his victims.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that, okay. So he started becoming the
Speaker 5: I don't know how you call it, like the he was.
Speaker 5: He was the one that would fly dignitaries and important
Speaker 5: people over by two thousand and nine, so he was
Speaker 5: flying the king, you know, the queen, ministers, anybody of
Speaker 5: importance in the royal family or in the political field.
Speaker 5: He was the man to do it. He's taking you everywhere. Now.
Speaker 5: Corporal Camu was an assistant in one of his flights,
Speaker 5: and she got her reputation by doing big world flights
Speaker 5: as well. She had flown all over all over the
Speaker 5: world and taking more foreign dignitaries in her career, people
Speaker 5: from you know, Egypt and India and Australia and things
Speaker 5: like that. And she had actually done one of these
Speaker 5: trips with him that went all through Canada. So they
Speaker 5: had one big project they did together. So that's how
Speaker 5: they met. And she was corporal in the same Trenton
Speaker 5: Air Force Base that he ended up being the wing commander.
Speaker 5: So they knew each other from working together on one
Speaker 5: main thing and that's about it as far as information
Speaker 5: you get. So that's how that happened. Now for him,
Speaker 5: why he chose her. I can't really say. Later in
Speaker 5: the interviews he just said that he didn't care about
Speaker 5: any of them. There was no specific reason why he
Speaker 5: chose the people he did, so you know, we're leaving that.
Speaker 5: But what he did do is he would find out
Speaker 5: where the person lived. So he found out where the
Speaker 5: corporal lived, and he would wait so he would make
Speaker 5: a setup. So if it was close enough, he would
Speaker 5: plan his day by jogging around and he would jog
Speaker 5: and look and try to get all of the different
Speaker 5: schedule that she would have and try to see who
Speaker 5: was there, who was coming in, who was that coming out,
Speaker 5: and kind of what kind of lifestyle she was. And
Speaker 5: then when he found out when she would be gone,
Speaker 5: he would sneak in, break into her basement somewhere, and
Speaker 5: he would go through the house. So he would go
Speaker 5: up into the bathrooms and into the bedrooms, the drawers,
Speaker 5: and this time he was looking for anything to do
Speaker 5: with the man. He wanted to make sure there was
Speaker 5: no male visitors, like she wasn't having men that were
Speaker 5: staying overnight, or there wasn't a boyfriend living there or
Speaker 5: a brother or anybody else. So she looked, so he
Speaker 5: looked everywhere for anything that would show if there was
Speaker 5: a male involved, and of course with Marie Kimo, the corporal,
Speaker 5: there was none. She was dating a man, but they
Speaker 5: were not living together, so that's how he would do it.
Speaker 5: And so eventually he waited for the time, and when
Speaker 5: the time was right, he knew that she was going
Speaker 5: to be alone. So he gets to her place about
Speaker 5: two hours earlier, breaks in the basement and waits, and
Speaker 5: in that particular case, he waited and a couple hours
Speaker 5: later she came home. She was on the phone for
Speaker 5: a little while talking to her boyfriend, planning different things,
Speaker 5: and then she was going to bed, so she hung up.
Speaker 5: But she in that particular case, she was looking for
Speaker 5: her cat, and she went down the stairs to find
Speaker 5: the cat, and she spotted him, spotted his eyes. He
Speaker 5: had a mask on, but she saw his eyes, and
Speaker 5: that's when the struggle began, and he actually took control
Speaker 5: of her, beat her enough times, and he hung her
Speaker 5: on a hook in the basement from her on her back,
Speaker 5: and he tied her up and blindfolded her. And then
Speaker 5: while she was there, he went upstairs and he did
Speaker 5: he hung comforters over the bedroom window so nobody could see.
Speaker 5: He also would take her keys and break them in
Speaker 5: the locks of the doors all around the house in
Speaker 5: case somebody else come here, so he would get notice.
Speaker 5: You know, he was very well planned. This was all
Speaker 5: thought out quite well. He was thinking about all the
Speaker 5: things he could and couldn't get away with and setting
Speaker 5: up different things. And then he went with her. He
Speaker 5: went back downstairs and untied her and unhooked her and
Speaker 5: was taking her up the stairs, and then she jumped
Speaker 5: on him and started a big fight. And that's when
Speaker 5: he hit her on the head a few times with
Speaker 5: the flashlight and then smashed her head right into the wall.
Speaker 5: There's huge dent, and she passed out, fell on the
Speaker 5: floor and tons of blood coming out. And that's when
Speaker 5: he would stop. You see, we would know because he
Speaker 5: would stop and take eighty pictures of the blood slowly
Speaker 5: as it's running across cement floor, and he wanted to
Speaker 5: almost catalog it, get detailed pictures of every movement that
Speaker 5: blood made. Yes, it was just incredible. And as it continued,
Speaker 5: he took her upstairs, tied her to the bed and
Speaker 5: blindfolded her and raped her, attacked her several times and
Speaker 5: beat her several times. And again he set up the tripod,
Speaker 5: filmed the whole thing, and he just would do this
Speaker 5: for hours and hours, and even after he killed her. Yeah,
Speaker 5: you're right, he had to go meet with the intelligence
Speaker 5: that morning, so I think it was five point thirty
Speaker 5: when he was finished, and by eight thirty he was
Speaker 5: in meeting with the intelligence, and the intelligence agents picked
Speaker 5: up nothing. They had no idea. He wasn't upset, he
Speaker 5: wasn't nervous, he wasn't anxious, he wasn't unhappy. He was
Speaker 5: he was normal Russell. He was perfect chipper, top of
Speaker 5: the day, right on top of everything, just as he
Speaker 5: always was. So they didn't they did not have a
Speaker 5: clue that that's what he was up to, just as
Speaker 5: shortly as three hours ago.
Speaker 3: You include that he later you find out that she says,
Speaker 3: I don't want to die, and he says, you're not
Speaker 3: going to die, but he covers her mouth and her nose.
Speaker 5: With tape, right, and she dies of suffocation.
Speaker 3: Now you say, what he does. He has the wherewithal
Speaker 3: because he is organized. He takes all of the sheets
Speaker 3: and the comforters, throws them in the wash, throws some
Speaker 3: bleach in there. But what he does leave behind is
Speaker 3: a shoe print.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little, just just tell us about that, well,
Speaker 5: you know, And and he did this before too. He
Speaker 5: would leave blood and even with the fight downstairs, he
Speaker 5: just he roughly wiped it up, not anything great. His
Speaker 5: his shoeprint running up through the blood and running up
Speaker 5: and down the stairs, and he didn't do a good
Speaker 5: job of trying to clean it. And even the two
Speaker 5: assaults before this where he didn't kill them, where he
Speaker 5: just raped them and sexually assaulted, he did the same thing.
Speaker 5: He left Prince, He left blood. He left all sorts
Speaker 5: of things as if he I'm not sure why, because
Speaker 5: how you could be so so calculated and so planned
Speaker 5: and so protected in what you were doing, and yet
Speaker 5: you would leave, you know, you'd walk through the blood
Speaker 5: and walk up and down the stairs and you'd just
Speaker 5: wipe things down and throw it in the wash and
Speaker 5: kind of leave. And it almost it almost almost almost
Speaker 5: two people, you know, doing the same event, Like the
Speaker 5: first guy was planned and calculate it one the second
Speaker 5: one was somebody different. And that is eventually how he
Speaker 5: got caught.
Speaker 3: Now the next day, as you write November twenty fifth,
Speaker 3: Como's boyfriend was very worried, and so she hadn't shown
Speaker 3: up for work. He went over and let himself in,
Speaker 3: and as you write, the horror of this is the
Speaker 3: neighbor watches him go in and then burst out of
Speaker 3: the house minutes later. Tell us about as you write,
Speaker 3: what does he do, how does he behave? What does
Speaker 3: he say to the neighbor before.
Speaker 5: Tell us, Well, the neighbor actually just had a plumber over.
Speaker 5: The plumber was there and they were talking outside and
Speaker 5: Commoe's boyfriend pulls up and he was more worried because
Speaker 5: she didn't show up for work one but not only that,
Speaker 5: she had just got back from one of those big
Speaker 5: flights where she had flown all over with dignitaries, and
Speaker 5: she was on the phone the night before to him,
Speaker 5: planning a lunch date to talk about the people she
Speaker 5: had met and things that happened on the flight, and
Speaker 5: so there was no answer in the phone, and so
Speaker 5: he was worried about that, and it was lunch, so
Speaker 5: he almost lunched. So he had it to the place
Speaker 5: and actually had her keys from her mother had given
Speaker 5: him the keys, and he went inside and found her
Speaker 5: dead and came running out screaming, and that she's dead.
Speaker 5: She's dead. Anybody know what happened? Anybody see anybody strange
Speaker 5: was his cars, and of course the neighbor and the
Speaker 5: plumber came over and everybody was in shock. You know,
Speaker 5: this is you know, a quiet, little sleepy rural community
Speaker 5: that nothing like this has ever happened. And so of
Speaker 5: course all the talk came, and then soon the police came.
Speaker 5: He was pretty devastated, way way beyond what you would
Speaker 5: normally expect. But the police cleared him pretty quick when
Speaker 5: they came down and started doing the search and talking
Speaker 5: to all the neighbors and canvassing the area, and they
Speaker 5: took him in requesting and stuff, and he was cleared
Speaker 5: pretty quick.
Speaker 3: The incredible part of this story again even more horrifying
Speaker 3: in retrospect, I guess for everybody reads this book too
Speaker 3: that was involved with this is that she was buried
Speaker 3: December fourth, two thousand and nine, at the National Military
Speaker 3: Cemetery in Ottawa, and as a commander, Williams was tasked
Speaker 3: with writing the official letter of condolence and condolence to
Speaker 3: her father. Tell Us, if that's not enough, tell us
Speaker 3: about what else he was tasked to do or what
Speaker 3: he did do at this funeral.
Speaker 5: Well, not only did he write the letter, but he
Speaker 5: actually spoke, he addressed I mean, there's there's We have
Speaker 5: the pictures of him giving her a really good reading,
Speaker 5: you know, at the funeral, with her picture standing right
Speaker 5: beside him, and he's up at the head of the
Speaker 5: crowd of the Air Force and parents and everything else,
Speaker 5: and talking about what a great member she was and
Speaker 5: great person. And he give her an incredible eulogy and
Speaker 5: also helped carry her her coffin. So it's just unbelievable
Speaker 5: that he could do that and fit the part. There
Speaker 5: was nothing unusual about the way he behaved, and if
Speaker 5: you look at that and look at those scenes back then,
Speaker 5: he was totally acting as he should have.
Speaker 3: Certainly, Now you talk about the murder of Jessica Lloyd,
Speaker 3: she's a twenty seven year old beauty. She lives alone.
Speaker 3: Tell us about her and her life and how she comes.
Speaker 3: What are the circumstances in which this predator comes to
Speaker 3: know of her, as you write in the.
Speaker 5: Book, Well, what was suggested was that on one of
Speaker 5: his men he runs through the area that he spotted her,
Speaker 5: spotted her working out in her She had a treadmill
Speaker 5: and because it's kind of country setting. You know, you
Speaker 5: have a lot a lot of people that live in
Speaker 5: those areas. They don't have curtains that isn't all done up.
Speaker 5: So you could see her just running on her treadmill
Speaker 5: right in the window, you know, right in the living
Speaker 5: room window, and nobody would notice, nobody would care, I guess.
Speaker 5: And so he started running by, and for some reason,
Speaker 5: something about her caught her eye, caught his eye, and
Speaker 5: he made it a pretty regular thing, and he got
Speaker 5: to know her time frame or patterns, and so he
Speaker 5: decided he'd check it out, just as he did before.
Speaker 5: So she's gone out, he drives up and with her
Speaker 5: particular lot. She lived in a house, and there was
Speaker 5: an empty lot beside her house, so it was an
Speaker 5: unsold empty lot. And so what he did was he
Speaker 5: pulled his pathfinder into that lot and waited to make
Speaker 5: sure she was gone, and then he walked across that
Speaker 5: lot and broke into her basement sliding doors. And what
Speaker 5: he did was he checked out the house again. So
Speaker 5: he goes up through all the rooms, the bathroom, bathrooms, drawers.
Speaker 5: He's looking for any sign of a man or anybody
Speaker 5: else that lived there. And he found no signs of
Speaker 5: any any males at all, nothing, and he had never
Speaker 5: seen any you know, in all of his surveillance. So
Speaker 5: he uh so he comes back out down to the
Speaker 5: to the truck and leaves. And that was this kind
Speaker 5: of as you know, his way of doing it. So
Speaker 5: then he must have planned it. And that same day,
Speaker 5: a week later, he comes back exact same scenari, but
Speaker 5: this time he's gonna wait for her. Now. The difference
Speaker 5: is when he pulled into the lot and he's waiting,
Speaker 5: a car drives up to the front of Jessica Lloyd's
Speaker 5: house and they leave their lights on. They get out,
Speaker 5: walk up to the front door, ring the doorbell. Wait,
Speaker 5: nothing happens, so they get back in the car and
Speaker 5: they leave. Okay, So then about maybe twenty minutes later,
Speaker 5: Jessica Lloyd comes up, parks, gets out, goes into her
Speaker 5: house and goes upstairs, and he waits until it's all
Speaker 5: pretty much dark, and he figures she's gone to bed.
Speaker 5: Then he makes this move, comes across down through the
Speaker 5: sliding doors in the basement, up comes into the bedroom
Speaker 5: and attacks her. He thought she was asleep. Actually I
Speaker 5: described that. How you know, he was so good at
Speaker 5: breaking in and not leaving any noticeable brakes, you know,
Speaker 5: on the doors or the handles, and he would even
Speaker 5: sneak up to the room and a lot of times
Speaker 5: he could set up his tripod and his camera and
Speaker 5: then attack the woman and they hadn't even noticed, So
Speaker 5: he was very, very precise. But she opened her eyes
Speaker 5: when he was in the midst of attacking her, and
Speaker 5: so he beat her quite severely, and he tied her
Speaker 5: up and continued to do the same sort of thing,
Speaker 5: took off his clothes and he raped her several times.
Speaker 5: Now this was a step up as well, because then
Speaker 5: he started doing things that were a little bit more aggressive.
Speaker 5: He like he tied the metal strips around her neck
Speaker 5: and would twist them so that she would choke, and
Speaker 5: then he would force her to do things and if
Speaker 5: he did, if she didn't, he would he would kill
Speaker 5: her choke her. So he started being even more aggressive
Speaker 5: with this one than he was with the one before.
Speaker 5: So he was upping his game, as you would say,
Speaker 5: he was getting more violent and caring less for the
Speaker 5: for the victim. And this went on for hours and
Speaker 5: then there was a bang, a noise somewhere. It startled
Speaker 5: him threw on his clothes, and he wanted to know
Speaker 5: if she had anybody else coming over. She said no,
Speaker 5: And so he picked out clothes, put it on her
Speaker 5: and shoes and dragged her out, threw across the field
Speaker 5: into his truck, and he drove her home. And then
Speaker 5: he took her into his house and he took her
Speaker 5: upstairs and made her shower, raped her again, tied her
Speaker 5: up and beat her and raped her again. And then
Speaker 5: she also tried tried getting away by pretending she was
Speaker 5: having convulsions, and he believed it for a while, but
Speaker 5: not anything, for she never got away. And then and
Speaker 5: all the way through it, of course, she was doing
Speaker 5: the same thing. I don't want to die. You're not
Speaker 5: going to kill me. Please tell my MoMA I love her,
Speaker 5: and through all this, and you're not going to die,
Speaker 5: he would say, and all this, and then of course
Speaker 5: he takes her down to the car and he kills
Speaker 5: her with the flashlight. And he took over seventy pictures
Speaker 5: of her dead on the basement on the in the garage.
Speaker 5: That's where it was. He stopped and took all those pictures,
Speaker 5: and and that's sort of this is sort of where
Speaker 5: not only it causes him to get caught. But he
Speaker 5: also when you talked about Larry Jones earlier, this is
Speaker 5: kind of the key part here because his neighbor in Tweed,
Speaker 5: the other one, Larry Jones, was a retired grandfather and
Speaker 5: lived alone or actually had a wife. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 5: And what happened was after this killing happened, he went
Speaker 5: over to Larry Jones the next day, who would go
Speaker 5: hunting all the time, and he said, Larry, what do
Speaker 5: you hunt? And he said, well, partridge hunt partridge. You
Speaker 5: know that, don't you. Oh no, I didn't. I didn't know.
Speaker 5: Where do you go? Where do you set up your camp?
Speaker 5: And of course Larry told him why I go up,
Speaker 5: just describe where the camp was and said that's where
Speaker 5: we set it up all the time and it's great
Speaker 5: for hunting, and oh great, Well, you know, have a
Speaker 5: good day. And Larry Jones at the time even said
Speaker 5: that it seemed kind of weird that they've been living
Speaker 5: for years together and seem out of the blue. When
Speaker 5: he got back from that hunting trip, he had found
Speaker 5: that someone broke into his shop. Larry Jones did, and
Speaker 5: when he went into the shop, he was worried about
Speaker 5: all this equipment and stuff being stole. Nothing, Nothing was stolen.
Speaker 5: And later he found out that he had an old,
Speaker 5: dirty jacket that his dog would sleep on while he
Speaker 5: worked in the shop, and he had a pair of
Speaker 5: gloves that he would use that were pretty old and
Speaker 5: rady and had cut stains and blood on it. They
Speaker 5: were both gone, and what he had done was Russell
Speaker 5: Williams had gone in and taken those items and wrapped
Speaker 5: them in the body of Jessica Lloyd, and then he
Speaker 5: dumped the body of Jessica Lloyd up at the camp
Speaker 5: where Larry Jones was doing his hunting. And it became
Speaker 5: a little bit even more intense because there's this story
Speaker 5: too that Larry Larry Jones's son, who was working at
Speaker 5: a sears and was friends with Jessica Lloyd, the girl
Speaker 5: that was killed, got a call from Jessica, you know,
Speaker 5: something about what her water pump or something was broken
Speaker 5: in her house and needed help. So the son calls up,
Speaker 5: you know, Larry Jones, because he's a neighbor, and said,
Speaker 5: can you go over and look at her. So, of
Speaker 5: course Larry Jones goes over there and tries to fix
Speaker 5: her heater pump, and or whatever she had in there
Speaker 5: and put his prints all over the place. He fixed
Speaker 5: it for, didn't charge her and left. So now you have.
Speaker 5: Now you have Larry Jones prints all over Jessica Lloyd's house.
Speaker 5: You have parts of his clothing wrapped in Jessica Lloyd's
Speaker 5: body and is dumped where he goes hunting. Yeah, you could,
Speaker 5: you know, you couldn't ask for a better setup. And
Speaker 5: of course the police questioned them, arrested them, rate at
Speaker 5: the house, and of course when that news came out,
Speaker 5: nobody in the community would talk to the Jones. He
Speaker 5: was evil, bad, he did it. He's awful, and that's
Speaker 5: kind of where the community was at at the point.
Speaker 5: So yeah, so he he didn't just kill he was
Speaker 5: setting someone else up to take the fall for it.
Speaker 3: You talk about a few hours later, just to show
Speaker 3: the psychopathic tendencies and their capabilities, he piloted a troop again,
Speaker 3: the high profile flight to California. This is a few
Speaker 3: hours later after all of that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, actually he was able to do that, just
Speaker 5: as he did before when he went and met the
Speaker 5: intelligence three hours after beating and raping same thing. He
Speaker 5: could just get it together and go do a high
Speaker 5: pressure job and do it precisely, do it well, and
Speaker 5: nobody noticed. Everybody thought he was the best. And everybody
Speaker 5: you talk to, they had no idea. There was no giveaway.
Speaker 5: He didn't even come in saying, oh I'm tired or
Speaker 5: I don't feel well, or complaining. He was come in
Speaker 5: like the total professional. You'd have no idea that he
Speaker 5: had a body, you see, And when he did that one,
Speaker 5: he still had her body in his basement, you know,
Speaker 5: Jessica Lloyd was still wrapped and done because he didn't
Speaker 5: have enough time, so he just kept her on ice,
Speaker 5: so to speak, while he went to work and can
Speaker 5: do like I said, a really high pressure and do
Speaker 5: it very well. It did not affect him. But I
Speaker 5: will say in talking to a lot of analysis and
Speaker 5: psycho and psychologists throughout this, it seemed to me that
Speaker 5: in order for him to be calm, he had to
Speaker 5: do this.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: My first impression was that he had maybe an anger
Speaker 5: toward his mother or a woman figure, and he was
Speaker 5: taking it out. He would beat them and demean them,
Speaker 5: you know, he wanted to make them feel bad about themselves.
Speaker 5: In the way that he was doing this, It wasn't
Speaker 5: like a sexual pleasure thing. And some of the psychiatrists said, well,
Speaker 5: what it was was when he was under pressure for
Speaker 5: let's say, his job, he felt out of control. In
Speaker 5: order to feel into control again, he had to go
Speaker 5: back to the time when he was a kid to
Speaker 5: achieve that. And that was that was back in the
Speaker 5: day where his mom and dad were together, and you know,
Speaker 5: it was considerate that his father used to slap his
Speaker 5: mother around a lot and was quite rough with her.
Speaker 5: So he was trying to find that calm spot and
Speaker 5: so what would calm him down and bring him back
Speaker 5: to normal was committing this act. And that's why they
Speaker 5: were elevated, and they lasted longer, and they were more
Speaker 5: aggressive each time because the pressure seemed to be getting
Speaker 5: higher with his job.
Speaker 3: Now you talk about fellow employees. On January twenty fourth,
Speaker 3: realized that Jessica Lloyd hasn't shown up for work and
Speaker 3: they notify her family and her brother Andy Lloyd, who
Speaker 3: lives in Bellevue nearby, and her mother, Roxanne McGarvey were alarmed,
Speaker 3: so they rushed to the house. What do they find
Speaker 3: at that house and what is the what does he
Speaker 3: leave behind? Which is important before we talk about the
Speaker 3: response from Belleville police.
Speaker 5: Well, the big of course, what they do is they
Speaker 5: find a you know, it's a crime scene. And he
Speaker 5: again did not leave. You know, there was blood in places,
Speaker 5: there was everything was ripped up, clothing again was gone tracks.
Speaker 5: They left in a hurry. Remember he thought he was
Speaker 5: someone was there. He was startled, so he threw shoes
Speaker 5: on and left. And what he did was he dragged
Speaker 5: her across that field to where he had his pathfinder part.
Speaker 5: And so both her prints and his shoe prints were
Speaker 5: all across because it was in that winter ish but
Speaker 5: melty winter season, so there was some little bit of snow,
Speaker 5: but there was definitely a lot of mud, and so
Speaker 5: they tracked those prints right across from her back basement
Speaker 5: sliding door, right to the to the truck. And then
Speaker 5: plus when he came in, he didn't take his shoes off,
Speaker 5: so his prints were all all around there as well.
Speaker 5: There was a blood in quite a few places, and
Speaker 5: it was just a really sloppy cleanup, and they knew
Speaker 5: right away something had happened.
Speaker 3: Police response, What did they do? What do they Again,
Speaker 3: he didn't leave too much evidence behind, but what do
Speaker 3: they do when this crime is reported? And what is
Speaker 3: the break they get in terms of witnesses and what
Speaker 3: do they what they are, what are they witness to.
Speaker 5: Well, they did the same same scenario, close off the scene,
Speaker 5: start canvassing the neighbors, friends, the family, and people they
Speaker 5: work with. You know, they did this the same standard.
Speaker 5: But they had one other thing that happened. If you
Speaker 5: remember I was saying earlier how a car pulled up,
Speaker 5: rung the doorbell, and then left. That happened to be
Speaker 5: a policewoman for the police department, and what it was
Speaker 5: was she had seen the Pathfinder, Russell Williams and the
Speaker 5: Pathfinder in the vacant lot in the dark, so she
Speaker 5: thought she would check on the door, you know, check
Speaker 5: on the house. So she went rung the doorbell to
Speaker 5: see if there's anybody home, see if they knew anything
Speaker 5: about that, see if things were okay. But she didn't
Speaker 5: go any further. She just turned around and left. So
Speaker 5: she described that to the police, and so they knew
Speaker 5: they were looking for that. So they went out to
Speaker 5: the field and they started taking tracks of the Pathfinder
Speaker 5: as well as the foot tracks, and so they decided
Speaker 5: to set up a roadlock and just start checking for
Speaker 5: people driving by the area with the same type of
Speaker 5: vehicle or tire, and quite a few were going through.
Speaker 5: And of course, you know, this was the luck of
Speaker 5: I guess William's turning, because normally he'd take his BMW
Speaker 5: to work him back and just used the pathfinder for
Speaker 5: you know, side things, nothing major, and this happened to
Speaker 5: be the same night he decided to take his pathfinder
Speaker 5: to work. So on the way back, he got stopped
Speaker 5: on the roadblock and they noticed his tires matched and
Speaker 5: it was the same type of vehicle. So they put
Speaker 5: him on a list and they let him go by
Speaker 5: and he went home. But that list, they started putting
Speaker 5: people on surveillance that were on the list, and that
Speaker 5: was kind of the break. That's how he first got spotted,
Speaker 5: and that was the thing that stuck out. And it
Speaker 5: wasn't long later that Detective Smith decided to call him
Speaker 5: in for an interview and he did it on I
Speaker 5: believe it was the Football Championship Sunday, the Great Cup Sunday.
Speaker 5: Told him to come on in and that's when the
Speaker 5: interview started.
Speaker 3: Interesting point and important point is that he didn't ask
Speaker 3: for legal counsel. And you speculate why that.
Speaker 5: Would be well, you know, I can speculate only because
Speaker 5: if you watched the whole interview. I mean, he was
Speaker 5: in there ten hours. But when he walked into the room,
Speaker 5: he was chewing gum and he was real. He was
Speaker 5: just real smug. And I don't mean that to say that,
Speaker 5: you know, anything bad. He just had a real chip
Speaker 5: on his block. He walked in like he was the king.
Speaker 5: You know. He throws his jacket on the table and
Speaker 5: the chewing gum sits down, crosses his arms, you know,
Speaker 5: the whole body language. It's like real kind of yeah,
Speaker 5: what do you want? You know, And and anytime at
Speaker 5: the beginning the detective would ask him a question and
Speaker 5: he'd go check, yeah, like he was being real kind
Speaker 5: of a why ass. And even when the detective said
Speaker 5: to him, well, have you ever had your rights read
Speaker 5: to you before? And he's like, no, have you ever
Speaker 5: been interviewed before? And then of course he plays the
Speaker 5: old Well, I've had interviews much tougher than this, you know,
Speaker 5: in order to become top security, I've had some pretty
Speaker 5: big interviews. Like so, he was a real smug, real
Speaker 5: kind of you know, he was trying to talk down
Speaker 5: to the cop in that way. That's how I took it.
Speaker 3: And you know, but.
Speaker 5: It didn't last long. Within two hours he was ready
Speaker 5: to give it up.
Speaker 3: You described to the work the brilliant work of detectives.
Speaker 3: Smythe to jim'smyth too, because he doesn't do the usual
Speaker 3: sort of wooing of this perpetrator. But he goes in
Speaker 3: very quickly, you know, for this route, for this interview
Speaker 3: that's supposed to be just routine. He thinks, it seems
Speaker 3: he takes that to his advantage, not having I think
Speaker 3: Williams really prepared, and then says immediately things like, you say,
Speaker 3: have you ever been read your rights? And here's what
Speaker 3: we're here for. We're too sexual assault and a couple murders.
Speaker 3: So he confronts him right away.
Speaker 5: Doesn't he Yeah, yeah, he's right on it. He typical
Speaker 5: read of doing it, you know, as some people and
Speaker 5: the police call it the read technique. And yeah, he
Speaker 5: was very structured, went right for it. And uh, you
Speaker 5: know because even then Russell started to get less smug
Speaker 5: and become a little bit more serious. But didn't he
Speaker 5: didn't seem like he was worried about it, you know,
Speaker 5: because he even offered to let him do DNA swab
Speaker 5: and all the tests. And then then he then he said, well,
Speaker 5: can we uh take your boots and check those as well?
Speaker 5: And he let them take his shoes, his boots, and
Speaker 5: and within two hours, like I said, then he holds
Speaker 5: and he uh shows him the tire trucks. Here's here
Speaker 5: these your car was and and that's how he put it.
Speaker 5: Your pathfinder was parked there, Your shoes walked into her house.
Speaker 5: Your shoes were there when she was murdered, your shoes
Speaker 5: and her shoes went back to your house, like like
Speaker 5: you know, he just sort of put it all. If
Speaker 5: you're not wearing them, somebody was wearing your shoes. And
Speaker 5: between the that, that and that, that's when Russell started
Speaker 5: kind of being on the defensive and kind of kind
Speaker 5: of going, well, what's going to happen to my wife?
Speaker 5: What's going to happen to the house? And that that
Speaker 5: was kind of the break. So within an hour after that,
Speaker 5: when they kind of agreed on a few things, he
Speaker 5: pointed out he just said, where's the map, I'll show
Speaker 5: you the body and he pointed out, just.
Speaker 3: Sorry, what you write too, is that that he talks
Speaker 3: about the footprints and he talks about the tire tracks
Speaker 3: and William says, really like he realizes they got the
Speaker 3: goods on him, and he says, well, what are my options?
Speaker 2: And I love this is.
Speaker 3: He says, well, I don't think you're I don't think
Speaker 3: you want the cold blooded psychopath option. I might be
Speaker 3: gone because I've met guys who actually enjoyed the notoriety.
Speaker 3: And that's when he said, okay, you got a map.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, it was done very well.
Speaker 5: And he that detectives might did get a lot of
Speaker 5: notoriety for it because he did. He did conduct it
Speaker 5: very well and he got it. And even after he
Speaker 5: did the map and they got the search warrant again,
Speaker 5: you know, he walked in and he made him write
Speaker 5: those letters to the victims and the families, and that
Speaker 5: was according to smythe He said, that's his technique to
Speaker 5: kind of verify because sometimes when you get a confession,
Speaker 5: something goes wrong. Technically it gets thrown out. This is
Speaker 5: this is something that wouldn't get thrown out with the confession.
Speaker 5: With the confession, so if he could get him to
Speaker 5: write letters saying yes I did, I'm sorry, I killed
Speaker 5: your daughter, I'm sorry I did you know all these
Speaker 5: letters they could still have that into evidence. So that
Speaker 5: was kind of a backup plan that Smythe had, just
Speaker 5: just to make sure in case the confession didn't count.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very interesting and profound part of your book
Speaker 3: that you include those letters and those revisions, and it's
Speaker 3: really striking to see something I guess that's so ridiculous
Speaker 3: actually that he's showing any kind of remorse, but a
Speaker 3: very interesting tactic by Jim Smythe or certainly, and.
Speaker 5: If I can point out on that one on a
Speaker 5: couple of the letters were to the unnamed victim, because
Speaker 5: we had one victim that's been unnamed and just won
Speaker 5: the lawsuit in December of last year, and it seems
Speaker 5: that that girl was underage, and because she was under age,
Speaker 5: she's still unnamed. And in the one one letter he
Speaker 5: did say to her that he hoped she would make
Speaker 5: something of herself someday, like grow up to be something good.
Speaker 5: Now that that part of it ended up being kept
Speaker 5: out in the trial, so that that whole part of
Speaker 5: the underage stuff and that was kind of the sore
Speaker 5: spot because what happened was the prosecution decided to keep
Speaker 5: all anything to do with pitiophile out of the trial
Speaker 5: and the charges if he would confess guilty. So he
Speaker 5: just took the took the plea of two murders eighty
Speaker 5: eight break kends, I believe, and two assaults and put
Speaker 5: away for life, no parole, and there was no trial.
Speaker 5: It would just be a redout in confession or you know,
Speaker 5: a plea and that's it. And so it was kind
Speaker 5: of done to protect the media or to protect the military.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought that, because.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they thought it. You know, I was just they
Speaker 5: thought that that was going to put a really bad
Speaker 5: mark on military. Anything to do with children. You know,
Speaker 5: he had over forty five under you know, twelve year
Speaker 5: old panties. He had so much pornography of underage children
Speaker 5: that they found. You know, it was very very it
Speaker 5: was very involved, and they just thought they would just
Speaker 5: kind of not mention it and walk away and just
Speaker 5: put them away, replace them within a day, and melt
Speaker 5: is you know, burn his uniform, melt his metals, strip
Speaker 5: them from everything, replace them within a day, put them
Speaker 5: away for life. Done and it doesn't come up, it'll
Speaker 5: it'll you know, just go away. And I think that's wrong.
Speaker 5: I think it's a bad thing to do.
Speaker 3: Certainly, certainly because again that's information. It is important too,
Speaker 3: because this is we were talking about nine year old
Speaker 3: girls here too.
Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's just, you know,
Speaker 5: it's just something that shouldn't be done. We don't need
Speaker 5: because most intelligent people in the country would look at Okay, yeah,
Speaker 5: he was a nutcase, like we don't we just because
Speaker 5: he was doing minors, involving them in the in his crimes,
Speaker 5: does not mean the whole military doing it, you know,
Speaker 5: you just he's a bad apple. The whole military isn't bad.
Speaker 5: So I think that they're being overprotective of something that
Speaker 5: it's you know, he was mentally mentally, something was wrong
Speaker 5: with Russell Williams and he did these crimes. But the
Speaker 5: whole the whole air Force is not bad because of it.
Speaker 3: So the air Force shouldn't have had the Air Force
Speaker 3: shouldn't have had this much influence on the prosecution because
Speaker 3: it's not much of a deal when we're talking about
Speaker 3: concurrent sentences for everything. So really he's only pleading guilty
Speaker 3: to something that he would certainly be convicted of with
Speaker 3: the overwhelming evidence of the records that he kept and
Speaker 3: let's let's just talk about You talked about all the
Speaker 3: pantees and all the but there's much more, like sex,
Speaker 3: toys and photos and videos tell us just not the numbers,
Speaker 3: but just the full extent between Tweed and his home
Speaker 3: of stuff. Evidence that they found at those locations.
Speaker 5: Was that, yeah, that was yeah, you see, And that's
Speaker 5: kind of the leads to the next step is you
Speaker 5: know he's in there, he's confessed, there's the body. So
Speaker 5: they get the search warrant and they send their teams
Speaker 5: over and the White Vands knock on the door to
Speaker 5: his wife and say, we've got a search warrant, give
Speaker 5: you twenty minutes to get some stuff and leave. So
Speaker 5: she does. So they do the tests and they find
Speaker 5: there was thirteen Duffel bags, I believe there and now
Speaker 5: in the bags would be all the clothing, you know,
Speaker 5: like and he started out with just panties, but it
Speaker 5: got to where he was taking dresses, shoes, bras, bathing suits,
Speaker 5: and then pictures. You know, he would go into a
Speaker 5: place and go through their photo album and take pictures
Speaker 5: for himself and leave whither is see he was getting
Speaker 5: more brazen. He would then he would leave a couple
Speaker 5: of their pictures on the band so they know he
Speaker 5: was there, you know, And then he'd go and he
Speaker 5: took like vibrators. Then he started going into the mother's
Speaker 5: rooms and take their vibrators. He had eighteen vibrators I
Speaker 5: think was the total. But he would take a picture
Speaker 5: of his penis laying over top of the vibrator and
Speaker 5: then leave it for them, or he would take a
Speaker 5: picture and put it onto the computer of the woman
Speaker 5: he took it from, and he would say something, usually
Speaker 5: in French, but he would say thank you very much,
Speaker 5: or I can't wait to see you tell the cops
Speaker 5: what you had stolen. He was really being he was
Speaker 5: like playing Koi with these people. He was taking all
Speaker 5: these things and being almost pushy. And when he did,
Speaker 5: he also would film all of his stuff. So it
Speaker 5: was a girl that he attacked, the film would be
Speaker 5: in there, all the pictures would be in there, and
Speaker 5: none of it was hidden. So they found all of
Speaker 5: it pretty much at ease. And so that came to
Speaker 5: the question is if they could do that, why did
Speaker 5: his wife not know it? You know, at least if
Speaker 5: she didn't know how he mustn't have been worried about
Speaker 5: her finding it, right, I mean, it wasn't hidden the way,
Speaker 5: and there was tons and tons of evidence, And the
Speaker 5: other thing is okay, so after the police find all
Speaker 5: this stuff, do the search warrant, come back. The first
Speaker 5: day she comes back, the wife, that is, what does
Speaker 5: she do? She calls her lawyer and sues the police
Speaker 5: for scratching her hogwood floors. Yeah, got that didn't make
Speaker 5: sense to me. You know, if could you imagine you're
Speaker 5: at home, had the police come and says, okay, your
Speaker 5: partner's spouse has confessed to murder. This is a search warrant.
Speaker 5: We're going through the house. You got twenty minutes, get out,
Speaker 5: We're going to go through stuff, and you leave. They
Speaker 5: do the search, and then and then you come back home.
Speaker 5: The first thing you do is call and say they
Speaker 5: scratched my floor. I want them to come fix it.
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know. I think it's it's but.
Speaker 3: It doesn't all mean it makes none of it makes
Speaker 3: much sense that she would not be able to know
Speaker 3: anything maybe not know anything about his behavior. But there
Speaker 3: was some talk that they were separated quite a bit
Speaker 3: as well, in terms of she wouldn't see everything he did,
Speaker 3: but it is compelling when you talk about all these
Speaker 3: bags of clothing that she wouldn't have ever stumbled across
Speaker 3: any of it or asked any questions whatsoever.
Speaker 5: And the other thing shared blood, yeah, and samples of blood.
Speaker 5: The other thing is too. They shared the laptop Mac
Speaker 5: laptop together back then, and this isn't when you know,
Speaker 5: this is got to you know, not everybody had smartphones
Speaker 5: and all that. So they shared a Mac laptop and
Speaker 5: he had all of those pictures and videos all on
Speaker 5: the desktop, all alphabetical order by the person and the clothing,
Speaker 5: and he filmed it all, even the ones he didn't rape.
Speaker 5: And when he went into a place like the next
Speaker 5: door neighbors they're Murdochs. When they were away three weekends,
Speaker 5: he would go in and he would set up the tripod,
Speaker 5: lay in the girl's bed, twelve year old girl's bed,
Speaker 5: take off his clothes and wear all of her clothes,
Speaker 5: try them all on for hours, and then do that
Speaker 5: again the next night, next night. And so what he
Speaker 5: did was he filmed it and took pictures and would
Speaker 5: put that on his desktop so it would be under
Speaker 5: her name, and it would be all the events he
Speaker 5: did with her, even if he never attacked her, just
Speaker 5: with the clothing. So that was all over the desktop.
Speaker 5: And she's not a stupid more and they're sharing that
Speaker 5: for emails and stuff. I don't know. I just I
Speaker 5: leave that open.
Speaker 3: Well other people. Other people have speculated like that as
Speaker 3: well and scratched their head, and more so because they've
Speaker 3: all launched lawsuits against her. So there is various lawsuits
Speaker 3: against her still in play, isn't there.
Speaker 5: Oh well, they've all settled now as of November of
Speaker 5: last year, she settled out of court. Every one of
Speaker 5: them was seven million dollars the two point five. See
Speaker 5: the court decided that she could be held responsible. And
Speaker 5: so when they did that in October, she and her
Speaker 5: lawyer settled out all the lawsuits. And we don't know
Speaker 5: the amounts that she settled for because it's you know,
Speaker 5: it's not disclosed. But she's completely settled, so it should
Speaker 5: be over. She's left her job. Nobody really knows where
Speaker 5: she is. She's probably back in England. She has wealthy
Speaker 5: parents with the big oil company and she's probably somewhere there.
Speaker 3: You have another you include another story. And I had
Speaker 3: to laugh at the just the last part of it,
Speaker 3: which talked about the mustard. So tell us about again
Speaker 3: something that again a close call. Tell us about this
Speaker 3: close call and Russell Williams in twenty ten April.
Speaker 5: Oh, when he was in prison, yes, oh, when he
Speaker 5: tried to kill himself. Yes, very you know, he's a
Speaker 5: smart guy. Hey, take the He basically plugged the oh
Speaker 5: he was taking the paper and the plastic off of
Speaker 5: the I think the orange juice containers or something, the
Speaker 5: little little wax, and he would be able to plug
Speaker 5: the locks so that the guard wouldn't get in fast enough.
Speaker 5: And then he would shove the toilet roll and the
Speaker 5: mustard down his throat so he would choke. And but
Speaker 5: they they found him, they caught him in time. He
Speaker 5: didn't die. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you say that he had scrawled a suicide note
Speaker 3: though with in you know, in mustard. And so then
Speaker 3: later they called him, they referred to him as, you know,
Speaker 3: colonel Mustard.
Speaker 5: Colonel Mustard. Yeah that's right, I actually forgot I knew. Yeah,
Speaker 5: the officers all called him Colonel Mustard down there because yeah,
Speaker 5: that's how he's you know, it's kind of laughable in
Speaker 5: a way, you know. And now he's in the Quebec's
Speaker 5: high security. He gets one hour a day where he's
Speaker 5: allowed fresh air. I guess you call it, you know, exercise,
Speaker 5: and other than that, that's it and he's he's gone
Speaker 5: away for life.
Speaker 3: M the you do do the heartbreaking part of this
Speaker 3: book where you talk about at trial of Jessica's mother, Roxanne,
Speaker 3: she held a large frame picture of her daughter with
Speaker 3: her right all the time there and also Lourie Massacot
Speaker 3: and forty victims of family members attended. So it was
Speaker 3: quite the sight, wasn't it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was, you know, and I do I do
Speaker 5: want to bring something in Lourie Masscott, Now she was
Speaker 5: the second rape victim, and the negative side on that
Speaker 5: was because she was blindfolded and attacked. And remember when
Speaker 5: we were talking about the Larry Jones, a neighbor, and
Speaker 5: with the jacket and the different things, the fingerprints that
Speaker 5: they had, well, when all this was happening, she testified
Speaker 5: that she thought it was Larry Jones's voice, so that
Speaker 5: that kind of threw the book at him, and he
Speaker 5: since has come out and said that that was only
Speaker 5: because it happened that Larry Laurie Mascot and Larry Jones.
Speaker 5: Their two kids were involved in a marriage and they
Speaker 5: had a really bad breakup, really bad breakup, and he's
Speaker 5: saying that's the only reason she identified his voice. So
Speaker 5: I have to mention that because that that, you know,
Speaker 5: it added to it and it made life worse for him.
Speaker 5: And the other thing that I found interesting was how
Speaker 5: the Murdoch's, the next door neighbor, the one where he had,
Speaker 5: you know, six bags of her stuff, a twelve year
Speaker 5: old girl, they bought his cabin at Tweed right, well right,
Speaker 5: And that's that's kind of very unusual to why they
Speaker 5: would want I mean, a girl was murdered there and
Speaker 5: all of the things that happened and they bought it. Now,
Speaker 5: they did an exclusive interview with mcclean's and they said
Speaker 5: that it was only to protect it from becoming a
Speaker 5: place to go, becoming a you know, like a B
Speaker 5: and B or something to someone making a business out
Speaker 5: of it, and that's why they bought it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, hard to say. You do include and not to
Speaker 3: attack police in this because there's some excellent police work here,
Speaker 3: but you do talk about DNA collected after the first
Speaker 3: victim was attacked. Was in the RC The data bank
Speaker 3: within two weeks in November. However, when Williams murdered come O,
Speaker 3: it took now ten weeks to process and upload to
Speaker 3: that same DNA data bank. Tell us if you or
Speaker 3: and you and others think that there would that would
Speaker 3: have made any significant difference.
Speaker 5: Well, it definitely would have because it would well, you
Speaker 5: know what, I think it would have changed the scenario
Speaker 5: because then we would have known it was a serial
Speaker 5: thing going on, and it changes the whole idea and
Speaker 5: the way the media handles it, the towns, the police.
Speaker 5: All of a sudden, there's a concerted effort to go,
Speaker 5: oh my god, we have a serial rapist killer, right,
Speaker 5: and that's our mindset changes, and then people start looking
Speaker 5: for that rather than two individual crimes happening in two
Speaker 5: little towns. So yeah, it does change it. You know,
Speaker 5: I still think that they would have things still would
Speaker 5: have happened. They wouldn't have caught him at that time,
Speaker 5: but it would have changed, you know, just the whole
Speaker 5: ground that we worked on, so you know, to actually
Speaker 5: sue them, and I know that that's going on, you know,
Speaker 5: with that Lorie Mascott and some of them had sued
Speaker 5: the police for that and and I know there's some
Speaker 5: problems there to blame them. Well, I wouldn't have been
Speaker 5: raped if you would have done this. I don't, I
Speaker 5: don't know. I'm not I don't see it that way.
Speaker 5: I don't think it would have been solved, and I
Speaker 5: don't think it would have stopped the attack from happening.
Speaker 5: But you know that my guess is as good as
Speaker 5: anybody else's. I'm not above on knowing the real answer
Speaker 5: to that. It's just it's so hard to look back
Speaker 5: and say, right, you know, I don't know, go ahead, sorry,
Speaker 5: I just I don't know how you feel about that.
Speaker 5: I just you look at it, and yeah, it would
Speaker 5: have changed the playground and the way the police were
Speaker 5: dealing with it, But I don't think it would have
Speaker 5: changed William's behavior. Yeah, I mean, it was too soon
Speaker 5: in it, and he was still getting more and more
Speaker 5: and more. He was still doing what he was doing.
Speaker 5: And just because police were looking for a serial killer
Speaker 5: or it was publicly notified that there's a serial rapist
Speaker 5: something going on, I don't know that it would have
Speaker 5: changed much because you know, along these terms, the Scarborough
Speaker 5: rapist was going in, Paul Bernardo and all of that
Speaker 5: was going on the same scenario, tied up, blindfolded, beaten,
Speaker 5: and killed and raped girls in the same age groups.
Speaker 5: It didn't stop Paul from doing it. I don't think
Speaker 5: it would have stopped Williams.
Speaker 3: Right right, Well, it's an incredible story, and I want
Speaker 3: to thank you very much for coming on and talking
Speaker 3: about Above Suspicion. Not only have you done this book,
Speaker 3: of course, I was glad and happy to be on
Speaker 3: your program. How Some Mystery that you co host with
Speaker 3: Kevin tell us a little bit about how Some Mystery
Speaker 3: and if you have a website or how people might
Speaker 3: find more information about this book and your work with
Speaker 3: House of Mystery.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, the House of Mystery is true crime and history.
Speaker 5: So we do a lot of the true crime just
Speaker 5: as you do. We like to get people that are
Speaker 5: on that are involved in it in part of the
Speaker 5: crime as much as we can, authors, filmmakers, and then
Speaker 5: we do a little bit of history, so we kind
Speaker 5: of go back, you know, jfk RFK, some World War
Speaker 5: history sort of things, some of the old Great Outlaws
Speaker 5: as well, you know, Jesse James and stuff. And we
Speaker 5: are on Seattle KKNW eleven and that's on four to
Speaker 5: five o'clock and of course all the podcast sites. Our
Speaker 5: website is Somethingweird media dot com and on something weirdmedia
Speaker 5: dot com you can get access to all the shows.
Speaker 5: We do a blog as well, or Kevin does the blog,
Speaker 5: and you have access to our own to the books,
Speaker 5: and of course and Amazon and Barnes and Noble. The
Speaker 5: book is out.
Speaker 3: Well, that's great. I want to thank you again Alan
Speaker 3: for coming on and talking about this book. Congratulations on
Speaker 3: a fantastic book and again very deservedly needs more attention
Speaker 3: to this story. I don't think people are aware of
Speaker 3: gratulations on this book doing that for us, So thank
Speaker 3: you very much and hope to talk to you again soon.
Speaker 3: And all the best with House of Mystery and writing
Speaker 3: another book, and hope to talk to you again soon.
Speaker 5: Great. Well, thank you very much for having me. It's
Speaker 5: been a real pleasure and it's an honor here it's
Speaker 5: you're the best true crime podcast going.
Speaker 3: Ah shocks. That's a good coming from you. Thank you
Speaker 3: very much, Allen. You have a great day. Thank you
Speaker 3: again for this interview.
Speaker 5: Good night, thank you Bye.