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<v Speaker 1>The Team House with your hopes, Jack Murphy and David Park. Hey, folks,

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<v Speaker 1>welcome to episode three hundred and eighty three of The

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<v Speaker 1>Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with today's guest, Martin Hertzock.

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<v Speaker 1>He is the author of GSG nine, From Munich to Mangadishu,

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<v Speaker 1>The Birth of Germans counter Terrorism for US. Martin is

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<v Speaker 1>a author, journalist, academic. I read this book just this week.

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<v Speaker 1>I hope you guys will go and pick it up.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought initially, as I was telling Martin before we

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<v Speaker 1>started the show, I thought I had read all about

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<v Speaker 1>this subject already. But when I picked up this book

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<v Speaker 1>and started reading through it, I realized there's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't know. And so we're going to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>the Munich massacre, the origin of GSG nine, how that

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<v Speaker 1>came about, and about I guess it really is the

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<v Speaker 1>very first successful aircraft down and is it the first

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<v Speaker 1>one that was ever done successfully in manga issue?

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<v Speaker 2>Hi? Jack, Yeah, thanks for having me on the show.

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<v Speaker 2>And yes, I think it is actually the first takedown,

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<v Speaker 2>and to this day, I think arguably the most complex

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<v Speaker 2>that ever happened. So yeah, it was a first for

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<v Speaker 2>everybody involved.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess and it showed the Western world.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that it's possible to fight back against terrorism,

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<v Speaker 1>that they weren't helpless, that there was a way. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>get into the implications of all of it during this show.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm excited to talk about this. Like I said, there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot going on actually, and there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>ancillary things around that hijacking that are connected to it

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<v Speaker 1>that we'll get into. But Martin, if you could first

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<v Speaker 1>tell us a little bit about your background, what kind

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<v Speaker 1>of like you know, your I know your background is

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<v Speaker 1>is in journalism. How did that kind of take you

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<v Speaker 1>into this subject of, you know, the German military and

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<v Speaker 1>police force in this case.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I studied philosophy and history and politics here at

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<v Speaker 2>the University of Cologne where I'm based, and I naturally

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<v Speaker 2>am very much interested in the history, and I came

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<v Speaker 2>across GSG nine. I think it was in two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and seven. That was the year when the Mogadishu, the

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<v Speaker 2>Mugadishu operation was thirty five years and they kind of

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<v Speaker 2>celebrated this anniversary, and of course there was a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of media coverage about that. And so I was working

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<v Speaker 2>for WDR, that's the public broadcaster here and they asked

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<v Speaker 2>me to do tvps and I did a radio piece

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<v Speaker 2>about that, and I came in touch with a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of the veterans who had been founding members of the

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<v Speaker 2>GSG nine in nineteen seventy two, just after the Olympic massacre,

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<v Speaker 2>but who have also participated in the Mugadishue operation. So

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<v Speaker 2>that was when I first got interested in this whole matter.

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<v Speaker 2>And then over the years I went deeper and deeper

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<v Speaker 2>into that matter and did a couple of segments for

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<v Speaker 2>TV radio documentations, And in twenty eighteen, I think it

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<v Speaker 2>was or twenty nineteen, I did a deep dive interview

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<v Speaker 2>with Dieta Fox, who is one of the of those

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<v Speaker 2>who founded the GSG nine and who was also very

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<v Speaker 2>very tightly participating in the Mugadishue operation. And so he

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<v Speaker 2>told me the whole story, which I realized I only

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<v Speaker 2>had covered part of it, and that was mainly the

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<v Speaker 2>days in between the hijacking of this Lufthanza plane. AH

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<v Speaker 2>won the Lansuit, that's the name of the aircraft, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was hijacked on October thirteenth, nineteen seventy seven, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was liberated five days later. And the story what

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<v Speaker 2>happens in between. That was something that fascinated me and

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<v Speaker 2>Dita Fox one was the one guy who accompanied the

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<v Speaker 2>commander of GZG nine, ulrichwgener all these five days when

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<v Speaker 2>it was the abduction of an aircraft, developed into an

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<v Speaker 2>audyssey throughout the Mediterranean, the Middle East, and finally ended

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<v Speaker 2>up in Mgadisho in Africa. So that was very fascinating,

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<v Speaker 2>and I thought, well, this is a story that has

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<v Speaker 2>not been told in any great detail in Germany. Surprisingly

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<v Speaker 2>because I thought, I looked it up and thought there

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<v Speaker 2>must be literature about that, but there wasn't. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, well, this is a story that is much

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<v Speaker 2>more than for a twenty minute radio show, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I started researching the book. I asked Dietter Fox if

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<v Speaker 2>he was happy to support me, and so through him

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<v Speaker 2>and then through GSG nine headquarters here close by and

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<v Speaker 2>they are based not far from Cologne, I was able

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<v Speaker 2>to really dive very deeply into the history, in the

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<v Speaker 2>founding history and the story of the Mugadishu operation and

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<v Speaker 2>finally write a book about that, which was then published

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty twenty two. And well, now you have just

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<v Speaker 2>said that you read this week the English version of

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<v Speaker 2>this these first five years of GSG nine from nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventy to nineteen seventy seven.

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<v Speaker 1>And this book is available now through Casemate. People can

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<v Speaker 1>go and find.

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<v Speaker 2>It, Yes, that's the case. You can buy it online,

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<v Speaker 2>I think in all the big online departments you can

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<v Speaker 2>find it, and also in good bookstores everywhere in the

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<v Speaker 2>US and in the UK as well. It's a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit hard to get your fingers on it when you're

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<v Speaker 2>in Germany, but people living here probably will refer to

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<v Speaker 2>the or where we'll rather go for the German version

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<v Speaker 2>of the book, I imagine.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's go back in time to nineteen seventy two.

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<v Speaker 1>We have to imagine for our younger audience, this is

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<v Speaker 1>before the War on Terror, before nine to eleven. This

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<v Speaker 1>is a time in the seventies where terrorism is sort

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<v Speaker 1>of a newish thing. International terrorism and taking of hostages

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<v Speaker 1>and hijackings is something that's becoming a weekli or monthly occurrence.

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<v Speaker 1>And then one of the big catalyzing events of terrorism

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<v Speaker 1>that happened at that time was what later became known

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<v Speaker 1>as the Munich massacre. Most of our viewers are probably

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<v Speaker 1>familiar with that event through the Steven Spielberg film but

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<v Speaker 1>I'd like to hear your description of that event, what

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<v Speaker 1>happened and what went wrong, and what were some of

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<v Speaker 1>the lessons learned out of it.

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<v Speaker 2>So the Olympic Games in Munich were in nineteen seventy two,

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<v Speaker 2>were the first after the nineteen thirty six Olympic Games

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<v Speaker 2>in Nazi Germany, and they were very monumental and very well,

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<v Speaker 2>you could say, rather grim Olympic Games. So that was

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<v Speaker 2>all for the purpose of the propaganda of the Nazi regime.

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<v Speaker 2>And this time around Germany wanted to do it differently.

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<v Speaker 2>They wanted to create happy games. They wanted to create

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<v Speaker 2>jolly games. That was the expression Hi tier Spieler, jolly games.

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<v Speaker 2>So they wanted to present you know, it was shortly

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<v Speaker 2>after the invention of the color div so it was

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<v Speaker 2>very colorful. They wanted to create a very very nice

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<v Speaker 2>environment welcoming the international community. They wanted to present Germany

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<v Speaker 2>as a modern, open, liberal state to the world stage.

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<v Speaker 2>So they planned for everything, and they had a very

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<v Speaker 2>very nice Olympic stadium. I can strongly recommend whenever you're

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<v Speaker 2>in Munich visit it. The Olympic Stadium is still magnificent.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very very beautiful and so everything was planned for

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<v Speaker 2>but for the but not for the security measures. Barely

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<v Speaker 2>any existed. There was maybe or not maybe there was

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<v Speaker 2>a fence, a two meter fence around the Olympic village

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<v Speaker 2>and that was about it. There were no further measures.

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<v Speaker 2>There were no contingency plans for any criminal or let

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<v Speaker 2>alone terrorist activities. There were no plans for Rice's staff

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<v Speaker 2>should something happened, nothing whatsoever, and so but nobody thought,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you mentioned it. It was a time of

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<v Speaker 2>rising terrorist activities, skyjacking of airplanes and the German home

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<v Speaker 2>made terrorism of the Red Army faction. We probably talk

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<v Speaker 2>about that a little bit later on.

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<v Speaker 1>It was.

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<v Speaker 2>Rampant, but nobody expected for anything to happen on such

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<v Speaker 2>an event because it was a happy sports event. What

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<v Speaker 2>should happen there, so nobody cared for it. So and

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<v Speaker 2>the first two weeks went fine. The weather was great,

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<v Speaker 2>the games were on and everybody was happy. It was

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<v Speaker 2>the first live event that was really televised around the

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<v Speaker 2>globe twenty four seven. And then on September fifth, in

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<v Speaker 2>the night of September fifth, Palestinian commando entered the Olympic village,

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<v Speaker 2>went to the to the location of the Israeli delegation,

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<v Speaker 2>and they took the Israeli delegation hostage, killed two of

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<v Speaker 2>them right away, and they demanded they took them hostage

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<v Speaker 2>and demanded the liberation of some two hundred and thirty

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was Palestinian fighters from Israeli prisons for

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<v Speaker 2>a couple from Turkish prisons and German RAF terrorists from

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<v Speaker 2>German prisons. So that were their demands. And over the day,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, nobody, as I said, nobody really thought that

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<v Speaker 2>something like that could happen. So haphazardly, they established a

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<v Speaker 2>crisis staff with police forces and ministers and the mayor

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<v Speaker 2>of Munich and the mayor of the Olympic village, and

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<v Speaker 2>they tried to gather police forces and tried to do

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<v Speaker 2>well something because nothing was planned. It was all very

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<v Speaker 2>they were, you know, in over their heads. Nothing really

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<v Speaker 2>worked out, and they tried in the afternoon, they tried

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<v Speaker 2>an assault, but that was you know, as I said,

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<v Speaker 2>it was televised live all over the world, so on

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<v Speaker 2>every TV set you could see what was happening there,

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<v Speaker 2>and nobody bothered to shoosh away the journalists and the

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<v Speaker 2>TV camera, so everything was really broadcast live worldwide. So

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<v Speaker 2>when they tried to sneak up on this on the

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<v Speaker 2>delegates on the delegation's house, the Israeli delegations house, they

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<v Speaker 2>could inside the house. They were TV sets in every

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<v Speaker 2>delegation there were TV sets, so they could watch the

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<v Speaker 2>sneaking up of the policemen who tried to yeah, go there.

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<v Speaker 2>They were addressed in World War two helmets and had

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<v Speaker 2>old guns that were also probably from the Second World War,

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<v Speaker 2>and they didn't know how to approach. They didn't know anything.

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<v Speaker 2>And while the orders are not really known what they

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<v Speaker 2>actually said, but it was something along the line we'll

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<v Speaker 2>get in there and then see what you can do.

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<v Speaker 2>That was basically there. There's strategy. That was all the

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<v Speaker 2>orders that were given to them. So within minutes this

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<v Speaker 2>all fell apart and the terrorists said, well, don't don't

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<v Speaker 2>even think about it. And so this this didn't take

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<v Speaker 2>take long for them to detect and to well ended basically.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the problem was that the Israeli government said,

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<v Speaker 2>well you to the to the German government, of course

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<v Speaker 2>they were called consultations between the German and the Israeli government,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Israeli government said, well, do whatever you want,

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<v Speaker 2>but we will not agree to any prisoner exchange, and

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<v Speaker 2>so yeah, the German government was left to their own devices. Additionally,

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<v Speaker 2>there was the problem that the German gaverny government was

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<v Speaker 2>not in power really of the situation because in Germany

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<v Speaker 2>police not unlike in the states, is authority of the states,

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<v Speaker 2>of the of the lender the provinces. So it was

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<v Speaker 2>the Bavarian province that was responsible for the police there

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<v Speaker 2>and all the action there, and the Munich city police.

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<v Speaker 2>So the federal government couldn't do very much really, And

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<v Speaker 2>so there was the Minister of the Interior, Hans Dietrich Genscher,

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<v Speaker 2>who was there and who was there to advise, but

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't have any authority of what should happen or not.

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<v Speaker 2>So this dragged on. There are a lot of more details,

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<v Speaker 2>of very interesting details, but it dragged on for the

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<v Speaker 2>whole day and in the evening. Finally it was agreed

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<v Speaker 2>to fly the terrorists with their hostages to Cairo. That's

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<v Speaker 2>what they told the terrorists. So the idea was to

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<v Speaker 2>fly them with helicopters to the nearby military airport of

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<v Speaker 2>Fustenfeldbrook and from there put them into an aircraft and

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<v Speaker 2>fly them to Cairo. That's what they told them, but

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<v Speaker 2>that was not what the plan was. There were a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of policemen, no special forces. There were no special forces.

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<v Speaker 2>There were just regular police corps. And they were given

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of i think two submachine guns and otherwise

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<v Speaker 2>just like pistols. And they were told, okay, go into

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<v Speaker 2>this aircraft that is parked there, that is ready for

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<v Speaker 2>the for the terrorists, dress up as luft Hanza employees stewarts,

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<v Speaker 2>and when they come in then you, you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>just get control of the situation and seize them or

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<v Speaker 2>kill them. That was the plan these guys when they

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<v Speaker 2>were told that, and there were not even all uniforms

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00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:58.799
<v Speaker 2>for them to dress them accordingly, and they would know

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<v Speaker 2>that twelve people Luftanza people in one tiny plane would

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00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:08.320
<v Speaker 2>raise suspicion by the terrorists right away. They didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>the right weaponry they did, they were not trained for

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<v Speaker 2>such a situation. So they quickly talked amongst each other

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<v Speaker 2>and decided, no, we will not go on such a

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<v Speaker 2>suicide mission and left the aircraft in Filston Feldbrook just

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<v Speaker 2>at the time when the helicopters with the terrorists were arriving.

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<v Speaker 2>So the helicopters landed, the terrorists got out of the helicopter,

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<v Speaker 2>two of them, the leader and another one, and they

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<v Speaker 2>went into the aircraft and saw that it was empty,

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<v Speaker 2>and they suspected a trap, of course they did. And

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<v Speaker 2>then they came out and signaled as much to the

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<v Speaker 2>other terrorists and that was the moment when the fire

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<v Speaker 2>when the firefight began, because there were like five sharpshooters.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a very well, that's a very big word for

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<v Speaker 2>these guys, because that was just guys with some rifles

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<v Speaker 2>and they were placed around the area where the helicopter

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<v Speaker 2>was sitting, and nobody knew who gave the order because

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<v Speaker 2>there were no radio contact, they didn't have any any

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<v Speaker 2>radio on them. So at some point they just started shooting.

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<v Speaker 2>And this shooting lasted for almost two hours, and the

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<v Speaker 2>final result was that that all that all terrorists safe.

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<v Speaker 2>Three it was all in all there were eight. So

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<v Speaker 2>five terrorists were killed and everybody of the Israeli delegation

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<v Speaker 2>to both helicopters that landed there were blown up with

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<v Speaker 2>everybody inside, and so in total there was one German

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<v Speaker 2>police officer was killed as well, and so all in all,

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<v Speaker 2>finally there were sixteen dead bodies and a police that

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<v Speaker 2>was completely in over their heads who completely that it

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00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:17.640
<v Speaker 2>was a complete disaster, complete failure. And this whole scenery

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<v Speaker 2>was witnessed by Hans Dietrich Genscher, the Minister of the Interior.

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<v Speaker 2>He sat there and couldn't do anything, and next to

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<v Speaker 2>him was his liaison officer to the Bundeskranschutz, the border Guards,

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<v Speaker 2>that was Urrichvigna at the time. He also witnessed the

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<v Speaker 2>whole thing, and when it finally was clear that this

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<v Speaker 2>was an absolute and utter disaster, they both came to

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<v Speaker 2>the conclusion that in order to prevent something from happening again,

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<v Speaker 2>something like that from happening again, it needs that there

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<v Speaker 2>need to be some unit that is able to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with such threats and such terrorist attacks. That's when, basically

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<v Speaker 2>that when the idea came up to create CHEESEG nine,

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00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.680
<v Speaker 2>and within three weeks GSG nine was founded and came

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<v Speaker 2>into existence.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know GSG nine being you know an acronym,

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<v Speaker 1>you can tell us exactly what it means, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>one of the border patrol unit you know sections or

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to say platoons, but one of their

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<v Speaker 1>elements was this counter terrorism unit placed within the Border

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<v Speaker 1>Guards because they were the force that had federal authority

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<v Speaker 1>around Federated Germany as opposed to you mentioned earlier, the

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<v Speaker 1>different provinces of Germany each had their own thing going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's it was a very complicated situation. And without

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00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:39.519
<v Speaker 2>something like the Olympic massacre, the massacre at the Olympic

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<v Speaker 2>Games in Munich, probably GSG nine would never have come

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<v Speaker 2>into existence, because, as you said, bunds grenz Schutz the

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<v Speaker 2>border god is federal and it was at the time

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<v Speaker 2>it was still very paramilitarily organized because they were basically

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<v Speaker 2>a force to protect the border to the to eastern

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<v Speaker 2>Germany UH and the call the the Eastern Bloc. And

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<v Speaker 2>but the Minister for the Interior Againsha wanted to make

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<v Speaker 2>it a real police force and so this was was

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<v Speaker 2>part of it. So it came in very handy that

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<v Speaker 2>they had a paramilitary background on the one hand, but

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<v Speaker 2>that they were a police force and they were federal.

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<v Speaker 2>In normal times, probably he would have had a hard

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<v Speaker 2>time arguing for such a thing with his colleagues on

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<v Speaker 2>the on the province is because they were very very

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<v Speaker 2>suspicious and they were very very keen on keeping their

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<v Speaker 2>authority in terms of police and security. And that was

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<v Speaker 2>you know, that was a result of the Second World War.

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<v Speaker 2>It you know, the decentralization of Germany give the provinces

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of power in terms of culture of education,

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<v Speaker 2>but also more importantly in terms of security in police forces.

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<v Speaker 2>So they wanted to federalize that in order to have

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<v Speaker 2>not such a centralized force. And so they were also

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<v Speaker 2>the German ministers of the interior of the province provinces.

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<v Speaker 2>They were really keen on keeping this authority and not

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<v Speaker 2>handing over too much of that power to the federal state.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, that was the reason why why the bunes

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<v Speaker 2>gran Schutz the BIGS the Border Patrol was chosen to

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<v Speaker 2>house such a unit. They had helicopters, they had what

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<v Speaker 2>they thought was all the equipment that they would ever need.

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<v Speaker 2>Turned out they didn't. They needed different staff, completely different equipment,

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<v Speaker 2>different weaponry. But that at the time they thought was

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<v Speaker 2>ideal to yeah, to bring a special unit and and

338
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<v Speaker 2>to to create a special unit like the GSG nine

339
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<v Speaker 2>and for the name just quickly they were up to

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<v Speaker 2>this time there were seven Grands Shoots Grouppen g s

341
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<v Speaker 2>G Grant Grouper one to seven and that wouldn't would

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<v Speaker 2>There was a so that means Border Patrol Group and

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<v Speaker 2>there was a helicopter unit that was the eighth and

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<v Speaker 2>then came GSG nine as a very small unit, but

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<v Speaker 2>they had regimental status which gave them access directly to

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<v Speaker 2>the Minister of the Interior, so they didn't have to

347
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<v Speaker 2>they were not a subgroup within one of the existing groups,

348
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<v Speaker 2>and so Vigner, who was the lidaison officer for the

349
00:24:54.279 --> 00:25:00.720
<v Speaker 2>big for the Border Patrol to Minister against he had

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<v Speaker 2>a direct line and kept it that way by having

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00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:07.559
<v Speaker 2>GSG nine being placed in this kind of on the

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<v Speaker 2>same level as the much bigger other groups within the

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<v Speaker 2>Border Patrol.

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<v Speaker 1>And part of that, or a big part of it,

355
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<v Speaker 1>was because of that personal relationship between those two.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, he was working for Genscher for the last three years.

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<v Speaker 2>I think nineteen sixty nine was when they met, and

358
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<v Speaker 2>he was Vigna was very much in high regard with Genscher,

359
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<v Speaker 2>and so they worked together for three years. He liked

360
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<v Speaker 2>his very direct, hands on approach, no nonsense approach, talking clearly,

361
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:56.759
<v Speaker 2>not trying to soften things, but just like a very

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<v Speaker 2>direct approach. He liked that and so it was the

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00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:05.279
<v Speaker 2>natural choice, it seems for him, and there was no

364
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<v Speaker 2>other competition in terms of leadership or anything like that.

365
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<v Speaker 2>Something that would take place certainly today, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>just he was just named as the one who would

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<v Speaker 2>create GGG nine and that was basically it.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell us a little bit more about Wagner, and

369
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<v Speaker 1>you know, you told us why he was selected. But

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<v Speaker 1>who was this guy as a person? Where what was

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<v Speaker 1>his background?

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<v Speaker 2>His background was military. He was born in the late

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen twenties in Utaburg. That's a little town southeast of Berlin,

374
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:49.440
<v Speaker 2>and that was a garrison city and his father was

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<v Speaker 2>a soldier. He served with the reiswer that was the

376
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:58.759
<v Speaker 2>predecessor of the Wehrmacht of the Third Reich. So he

377
00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:04.440
<v Speaker 2>very early came into contact in touch with the military.

378
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<v Speaker 2>And he was also his father was very conservative. They

379
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:16.279
<v Speaker 2>were very Prussian in their in their whole approach. He

380
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:20.920
<v Speaker 2>liked that very much. He was He liked punctuality and

381
00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:26.960
<v Speaker 2>values and keeping to your word and these all these

382
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:35.799
<v Speaker 2>values that are connected with Prussian and German. Well, how

383
00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:40.279
<v Speaker 2>do you say that? He was very very Prussian in

384
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:46.839
<v Speaker 2>that sense, very conservative, but not very keen on the

385
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:51.079
<v Speaker 2>national socialists that were just coming on in the nineteen thirties.

386
00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:57.240
<v Speaker 2>His father didn't like the whole ideology. He was very patriotic,

387
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:01.880
<v Speaker 2>very nationalist, but he didn't like the ideaology of anti

388
00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:08.319
<v Speaker 2>Semitism of the NSDAP, the National Socialist movement, and he

389
00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:12.480
<v Speaker 2>liked the whole the Hitler cult and all that surrounds it.

390
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:19.400
<v Speaker 2>He clearly disliked that. Ulrich, being a young kid at

391
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:25.160
<v Speaker 2>the time, he saw himself in a position that he

392
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:31.480
<v Speaker 2>needed to join the Hitler Judent Hitler Youth but so

393
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:34.440
<v Speaker 2>because everybody was going there, so he thought I have

394
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:39.400
<v Speaker 2>to go as well, And in his memoirs he writes

395
00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:43.519
<v Speaker 2>that he had to apply the Hitler salute, that was

396
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:46.240
<v Speaker 2>a necessity, but he didn't like it too much. He

397
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:51.880
<v Speaker 2>was certainly no resistance fighter against the Nazi regime, but

398
00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:57.200
<v Speaker 2>he was kind of swimming along with it. When the

399
00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:02.319
<v Speaker 2>war was almost over, he was just at the age

400
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:06.960
<v Speaker 2>that he could be drafted and was sent to defend

401
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:10.359
<v Speaker 2>the Eastern Front. But that was a very short episode

402
00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:14.599
<v Speaker 2>and then the war was over, and yeah, he was

403
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:18.079
<v Speaker 2>left in the eastern part of Germany that was controlled

404
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.880
<v Speaker 2>by the Soviet Union, and he hadn't been really a

405
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.079
<v Speaker 2>resistance fighter against the Nazis, although he didn't like them,

406
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:30.400
<v Speaker 2>but he surely was anti communist. So he founded a

407
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:36.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of a little resistance movement himself, basically printing letters

408
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:42.640
<v Speaker 2>and leaflets and yeah, spreading them. And it didn't take

409
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.960
<v Speaker 2>long until the fox pull it side. The People's Police

410
00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:49.759
<v Speaker 2>of Eastern Germany caught him and put him on trial,

411
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.279
<v Speaker 2>very short trial, and eighteen months later he was allowed

412
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:59.640
<v Speaker 2>to leave prison. So he was in a situation where

413
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:01.839
<v Speaker 2>he well, what do I do now? And he went

414
00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:06.839
<v Speaker 2>to Western Germany, returned for a short period, but then

415
00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:10.440
<v Speaker 2>finally went to the western part of Germany where he

416
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:15.440
<v Speaker 2>ended up. After his incarceration, he was very, very thin

417
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:23.440
<v Speaker 2>and yeah, he had barely he was bones and skinned basically,

418
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:28.079
<v Speaker 2>and he ended up in a camp, in a refugee

419
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:32.160
<v Speaker 2>camp in southern Germany and was a little bit. Yeah,

420
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:34.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, he got better after a couple of weeks,

421
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:38.559
<v Speaker 2>and then there were people looking for personnel for the

422
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:42.559
<v Speaker 2>local riot police, and that's when he joined the police.

423
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:46.480
<v Speaker 2>And a couple of years later he decided whether to

424
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:51.799
<v Speaker 2>go to the newly established bundes So the National Army,

425
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:56.000
<v Speaker 2>or the bunds Granschutz the Border Guard. He applied for

426
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:58.839
<v Speaker 2>both and he just ended up with the border Guards

427
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:03.440
<v Speaker 2>because the acceptance letter arrived first from the Border Guard.

428
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:07.839
<v Speaker 2>So that's how he got into the force, and then

429
00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:12.240
<v Speaker 2>he worked his way up through the ranks basically in

430
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:17.680
<v Speaker 2>the coming years and decades. And he obviously spoke very

431
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:23.039
<v Speaker 2>good English. So he was sent to Bavaria, to the

432
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:28.039
<v Speaker 2>border in the east, and so every time American Army

433
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:31.440
<v Speaker 2>officers came to inspection, he was sent there to give

434
00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:34.079
<v Speaker 2>them the tour, and so he was kind of the

435
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:39.759
<v Speaker 2>interpreter of this unit that he was serving with. Yeah,

436
00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:44.079
<v Speaker 2>and so he worked up his way through the ranks,

437
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:47.799
<v Speaker 2>and then there was a big maneuver in nineteen sixty

438
00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:54.039
<v Speaker 2>eight called FALLIX sixty eight, and he was sent to

439
00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Bond to the Ministry of the Interior as a liaison

440
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:06.960
<v Speaker 2>office to prepare for this for this big maneuver military

441
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:11.279
<v Speaker 2>maneuver that the Border Patrol was part of and was

442
00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:16.400
<v Speaker 2>taking part in. And that's when he met Gentscher, And

443
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:22.039
<v Speaker 2>that was then when he became his liaison officer over

444
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:28.039
<v Speaker 2>the limited time beyond the limited time that was connected

445
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.559
<v Speaker 2>with this maneuver, and that's how he, yeah, how they

446
00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:34.960
<v Speaker 2>met and how they got to know each other.

447
00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:39.920
<v Speaker 1>So I would love to ask you how Ulrich Wagner

448
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:43.759
<v Speaker 1>went about establishing GSG nine having to build this unit

449
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:48.559
<v Speaker 1>from scratch essentially, and for context for American viewers, nineteen

450
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:51.880
<v Speaker 1>seventy two, this is five years before the United States

451
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:55.799
<v Speaker 1>even began creating Delta Force. The unit was started in

452
00:32:55.839 --> 00:32:58.960
<v Speaker 1>seventy seven, I think fully activated in nineteen eighty. So

453
00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:01.079
<v Speaker 1>we as a ma Mericans did not know how to

454
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:05.240
<v Speaker 1>do this stuff either in nineteen seventy two. There's no

455
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:08.880
<v Speaker 1>textbook really that he can go to and read. How

456
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:11.359
<v Speaker 1>did he start to put this capability together?

457
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:16.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was the first big question. As I said,

458
00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:20.640
<v Speaker 2>the unit was established, or the at least the legal

459
00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:23.160
<v Speaker 2>work for the unit was established within a couple of

460
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:28.599
<v Speaker 2>weeks after the Olympic massacre in Munich. So the letter

461
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:31.319
<v Speaker 2>of the Ministry of the Interior went out on the

462
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:35.599
<v Speaker 2>twenty sixth of September, which was three weeks up to

463
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:39.839
<v Speaker 2>the day, three weeks after the massacre in Munich. So

464
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:44.319
<v Speaker 2>he had a couple of ideas. But as you said,

465
00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:47.559
<v Speaker 2>there is no textbook for it. There were in the

466
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:52.279
<v Speaker 2>US they were the first swap teams kind of being created,

467
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:55.440
<v Speaker 2>but they didn't really seem to know what they were

468
00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:58.599
<v Speaker 2>doing with it. The British had some experience with the

469
00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:04.920
<v Speaker 2>sas did the special service, and there were basically only

470
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:10.000
<v Speaker 2>the Israelis who really had operational experience in this field.

471
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:17.119
<v Speaker 2>And so what Wigner did, and that was really something

472
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:20.119
<v Speaker 2>out of the ordinary, is he went to Genscher and

473
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:24.440
<v Speaker 2>asked him to go to Israel and ask the Israelis

474
00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:28.280
<v Speaker 2>how they do that stuff. And you can imagine, just

475
00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:34.360
<v Speaker 2>a couple of weeks after the whole Israel delegation Olympic

476
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:39.239
<v Speaker 2>delegation has been murdered on German ground and with the

477
00:34:39.320 --> 00:34:45.000
<v Speaker 2>complete and utter failure of German security forces that they

478
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:49.480
<v Speaker 2>probably wouldn't be too pleased about hearing. You know, now

479
00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:52.079
<v Speaker 2>is a German he wants to learn about all that.

480
00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:56.840
<v Speaker 2>So Genscher told him that he was crazy, that they

481
00:34:56.880 --> 00:35:02.239
<v Speaker 2>would probably they would certainly not have him, but they did,

482
00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:06.480
<v Speaker 2>and they said, yes, let's you can come over. We

483
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:10.800
<v Speaker 2>have a course, a training course, and you can participate.

484
00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:17.320
<v Speaker 2>And that was really something out of the ordinary because

485
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:21.320
<v Speaker 2>there as a side note, just a couple of weeks,

486
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:25.360
<v Speaker 2>just on the day before Vigner went to Israel, there

487
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:33.480
<v Speaker 2>was another abduction of a German aircraft to Jugoslavia and

488
00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:38.840
<v Speaker 2>the demand of the terrorists was to liberate those three

489
00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:44.039
<v Speaker 2>surviving terrorists from Munich and the German government, well, they

490
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:48.119
<v Speaker 2>didn't hesitate one moment, They just released the prisoners. So

491
00:35:48.199 --> 00:35:50.719
<v Speaker 2>you can imagine that the Israeli government was not too

492
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:55.559
<v Speaker 2>amused about that. They really really were disappointed. And the

493
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:59.079
<v Speaker 2>Israeli German West German one must say, there was an

494
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.719
<v Speaker 2>East German state as well, but the West German Israeli

495
00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:07.920
<v Speaker 2>relationships at that point were on an absolute low. So

496
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:15.360
<v Speaker 2>and in this situation goes to Israel and takes part

497
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:23.800
<v Speaker 2>in this two week course and he is not received

498
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:28.119
<v Speaker 2>very well in the beginning, but within one week they

499
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:33.519
<v Speaker 2>realized that Vigna is very serious about what he wants

500
00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:35.519
<v Speaker 2>to learn. He knows exactly what he wants to learn.

501
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:38.480
<v Speaker 2>He asks questions, he doesn't say much, he just asks

502
00:36:38.599 --> 00:36:42.960
<v Speaker 2>questions and only stops asking questions when he's really really

503
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:47.760
<v Speaker 2>satisfied with the answers. And they respect that. And over

504
00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:52.199
<v Speaker 2>the time there are they are even friendships that are

505
00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:55.400
<v Speaker 2>being developed out of that, And even.

506
00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Lifelong jumped out at me Martin was his One of

507
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:06.360
<v Speaker 1>his friends in Israel was Yanni Natan Yahoo, which seems

508
00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:09.159
<v Speaker 1>very natural. Like knowing what I've read about the two

509
00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:12.280
<v Speaker 1>of them, they sound like very similar take charge leaders.

510
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:17.079
<v Speaker 2>You know, right exactly. Yeah, they are a couple of

511
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:21.719
<v Speaker 2>names that stand out. One of the unit leaders one

512
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:26.519
<v Speaker 2>who was ordered to stand by. That was another little

513
00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:30.679
<v Speaker 2>side story of the Olympic story. In nineteen seventy two,

514
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:35.239
<v Speaker 2>there was a unit on stand by in Tel Aviv

515
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:39.000
<v Speaker 2>in order they were ready to go in there and

516
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:44.559
<v Speaker 2>solve the situation, but they were not allowed because the

517
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:49.079
<v Speaker 2>German government didn't allow foreign forces on German ground, so

518
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:52.000
<v Speaker 2>they never did that. And the leader of that unit

519
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:56.079
<v Speaker 2>was Ihud Barak, who later then became Prime Minister of Israel,

520
00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:59.920
<v Speaker 2>of course, and so he was also on that court.

521
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.960
<v Speaker 2>And also from there there was a friendship with Vigna

522
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:06.559
<v Speaker 2>that developed from this point on and since then there

523
00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:11.519
<v Speaker 2>has been a very close relationship between the Israelis and

524
00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:16.199
<v Speaker 2>GISG nine in Germany, and up to this day it's

525
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:20.800
<v Speaker 2>very very close. Because they said, you know, of course

526
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:24.199
<v Speaker 2>that was a disaster what happened there in nineteen seventy

527
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:28.800
<v Speaker 2>two in Munich, but you know, we have to make

528
00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:33.000
<v Speaker 2>sure that we're fighting on eye level with the Germans,

529
00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:37.599
<v Speaker 2>that something like that might not happen again. And so

530
00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:41.679
<v Speaker 2>they were open and as they said, I've spoken to

531
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Ruben Casby, who was also I'm not sure if he

532
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:49.760
<v Speaker 2>was in that first cause, but he was a lifelong

533
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:54.519
<v Speaker 2>friend and who established a special force anti terror force

534
00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:58.079
<v Speaker 2>for himself, and he told me we went much much

535
00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:02.440
<v Speaker 2>further with the Germans than with any other nationality because

536
00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:05.480
<v Speaker 2>we knew that they could do the job that they

537
00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:08.119
<v Speaker 2>would if they set their mind to it. They would

538
00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:10.079
<v Speaker 2>be very very good in what they're doing, and they

539
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:17.679
<v Speaker 2>understand understood how you go about special operations and counter

540
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:23.159
<v Speaker 2>terrorism measures. And so that's how this relationship was established.

541
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:26.039
<v Speaker 2>And as I said, it still stands today.

542
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:29.159
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543
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544
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545
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546
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547
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548
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<v Speaker 1>There were some unique things that Wagner took away, like

577
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:13.760
<v Speaker 1>like one of the things you talk about in the

578
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:17.599
<v Speaker 1>book is how he task organized his unit into smaller

579
00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:18.199
<v Speaker 1>strike groups.

580
00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:20.199
<v Speaker 3>Where where did that kind of idea come from? Was

581
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:21.639
<v Speaker 3>that German? Or is really.

582
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:28.719
<v Speaker 2>Neither? He came back with a from from this two

583
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:32.360
<v Speaker 2>week trip with you know, a bag full of ideas,

584
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:35.360
<v Speaker 2>and then of course then the next question is, okay,

585
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:41.280
<v Speaker 2>how do we implement that into into German necessities and

586
00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:45.400
<v Speaker 2>German structures? How do we incorporate that? And so he

587
00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:48.760
<v Speaker 2>started wondering, Okay, how do I organize this this whole thing?

588
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:56.760
<v Speaker 2>And he looked through the literature and couldn't really find something.

589
00:41:56.920 --> 00:42:01.880
<v Speaker 2>And then he basically crossed the eye to the opponent

590
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.039
<v Speaker 2>opposing side, and he read a book by Marigella is

591
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:12.440
<v Speaker 2>his name. He that was the handbook for the guerrilla

592
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:18.719
<v Speaker 2>War that was very very popular in left leftish well

593
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:27.280
<v Speaker 2>left extremely left violent circles, and so there were there

594
00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:33.719
<v Speaker 2>were yeah, it was it was a small book basically

595
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:37.239
<v Speaker 2>just like forty fifty pages long. It was not an

596
00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:40.719
<v Speaker 2>official print. It was only you know, black copies that

597
00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:48.480
<v Speaker 2>were circulating. And so they he suggests that there needs

598
00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:53.199
<v Speaker 2>to be fire squads in order to to be flexible

599
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:57.880
<v Speaker 2>and to do the things that that a gorilla, a

600
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:05.280
<v Speaker 2>gorilla group has to do. You need to organize yourself

601
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:09.519
<v Speaker 2>in fire groups, and that they consist of no more

602
00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:12.800
<v Speaker 2>than five or six people, and they work more or

603
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:17.639
<v Speaker 2>less autonomously. Initiative is the keyword here, So there's there's

604
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:21.039
<v Speaker 2>nothing without initiative. Of course, they are connected to each

605
00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:24.039
<v Speaker 2>other and they have to follow orders, but in the

606
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:29.079
<v Speaker 2>situation they have to decide for themselves what is best,

607
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:33.880
<v Speaker 2>and they have to act autonomously and also get into

608
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:37.280
<v Speaker 2>the initiative and don't just wait for orders from above.

609
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:41.440
<v Speaker 2>And so Vigner more or less took this idea one

610
00:43:41.480 --> 00:43:45.800
<v Speaker 2>on one and just implemented that, and he created not

611
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:52.880
<v Speaker 2>fire groups, as Marigalatol said. The margalatold it, but he

612
00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:57.960
<v Speaker 2>named them a s E T. Sitz Einsat Troop's Special

613
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:02.519
<v Speaker 2>operation team, and that was the nucleus of GSG nine.

614
00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:08.760
<v Speaker 2>So there were five man strong sets and they would

615
00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:12.800
<v Speaker 2>be part of one of the three GSG nine units

616
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:18.320
<v Speaker 2>operational units. And the idea was that everybody has to

617
00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:21.760
<v Speaker 2>be able to rely on everybody else within this group.

618
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:28.159
<v Speaker 2>Trust is a keyword for that, and also the possibility

619
00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:34.599
<v Speaker 2>and capability that each member of the group can do

620
00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:37.599
<v Speaker 2>the job of each other member of the group, so

621
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:41.840
<v Speaker 2>that you know you can you can rely on each other,

622
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:47.960
<v Speaker 2>and if one member is well, is taken out or

623
00:44:48.760 --> 00:44:51.239
<v Speaker 2>is not part of the group anymore, the group is

624
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:54.559
<v Speaker 2>still able to act and to work together. So that

625
00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:59.679
<v Speaker 2>was the basic idea, and Vigna got that from Gillia

626
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:01.800
<v Speaker 2>Guerrilla Handbook.

627
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:05.159
<v Speaker 1>And then he also faced all kinds of problems with

628
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:10.079
<v Speaker 1>sourcing equipment, right, Like the pistols were inadequate, the holsters

629
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:13.599
<v Speaker 1>for the pistols were inadequate, the repelling harnesses were inadequate.

630
00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:17.400
<v Speaker 1>How did he go about the you know, testing and

631
00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:20.559
<v Speaker 1>evaluation and development of the gear that the unit was

632
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:20.920
<v Speaker 1>to use.

633
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:29.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's that's that's of course, something that Vegana didn't

634
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:32.320
<v Speaker 2>do just by himself. So we have a couple of

635
00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:36.000
<v Speaker 2>those veterans, some that I had the opportunity to interview

636
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:41.159
<v Speaker 2>as well, and they told me that they basically did

637
00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:46.800
<v Speaker 2>lights On end with brainstorming thinking about okay, you know,

638
00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:49.880
<v Speaker 2>what do we have, what is the equipment, what is

639
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:53.280
<v Speaker 2>the weaponry that we have, and what do we want

640
00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:56.000
<v Speaker 2>to do and what we can what can we use

641
00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:58.719
<v Speaker 2>for for that what we want to do? And the

642
00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:02.880
<v Speaker 2>answer was basically nothing. So they said, well, well we

643
00:46:03.239 --> 00:46:09.119
<v Speaker 2>didn't need heavy armament, we didn't need heavy armed vehicles.

644
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:14.320
<v Speaker 2>We need fast vehicles, we need helicopters. In terms of

645
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:18.920
<v Speaker 2>the uniform, you know, they hadn't. They had nice uniforms

646
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:24.360
<v Speaker 2>from the border Guard, with nice pockets and shiny buttons

647
00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:27.000
<v Speaker 2>and all that stuff. And they said, well, for what

648
00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:30.480
<v Speaker 2>we are going to do if we have to you know,

649
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:34.159
<v Speaker 2>if we have to go out on a night, we can't.

650
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Can't have shiny buttons. They had a nice, a nice

651
00:46:41.960 --> 00:46:45.920
<v Speaker 2>tie a boat, not on a boat, a tie, uh,

652
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:49.480
<v Speaker 2>and you know what happens with a tie, You get

653
00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:53.400
<v Speaker 2>strangled by the by the bad guys. So off with it.

654
00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:58.199
<v Speaker 2>So they started to redesign their own uniforms. They took

655
00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:01.960
<v Speaker 2>their working uniforms that they had and then they started

656
00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:07.559
<v Speaker 2>literally with needle and thread to rework their uniforms to

657
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:11.360
<v Speaker 2>make them adequate for what they had in mind what

658
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:13.360
<v Speaker 2>they would do so that it could move, that it

659
00:47:13.400 --> 00:47:16.840
<v Speaker 2>could fight. You know that if you go into a

660
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:20.599
<v Speaker 2>close quartifight, you need to be able to move. So

661
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:24.920
<v Speaker 2>and since, as we have established already, since there was

662
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:32.480
<v Speaker 2>no textbook and no no nowhere where you could see

663
00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:35.440
<v Speaker 2>how it's done, it was just trial and error. And

664
00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:38.039
<v Speaker 2>then at some point Vigna would come in and he

665
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:40.599
<v Speaker 2>would look at it and say, yeah, fine, okay, let's

666
00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:42.920
<v Speaker 2>do it like that. And that was very much out

667
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:47.079
<v Speaker 2>of the ordinary because the Bunschutz, the border patrol was

668
00:47:47.599 --> 00:47:51.840
<v Speaker 2>very much, very traditional, very conservative, and you just wouldn't

669
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:56.800
<v Speaker 2>do certain things like the head gear. They had a

670
00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:59.760
<v Speaker 2>very nice cap, you know, so it looks a little

671
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:02.400
<v Speaker 2>bit like a baseball cap, but it's it's it's not it.

672
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:07.480
<v Speaker 2>And they said, well, you know, when we move, it

673
00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:10.599
<v Speaker 2>just falls off. It's it's no use this cap. So

674
00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:14.039
<v Speaker 2>what head gear can we use? And Vigna brought back

675
00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:18.239
<v Speaker 2>from Israel beret and so they said, okay, then let's

676
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:21.960
<v Speaker 2>have a beret. That's that's cool and it sticks on

677
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.280
<v Speaker 2>your head when you when you move, so let's have

678
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:32.199
<v Speaker 2>a beret. And they were able to actually, uh to

679
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:36.280
<v Speaker 2>to actually have that inspected by the Inspector General of

680
00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:39.840
<v Speaker 2>the Boons Glenshots, the highest ranking officer. When he came

681
00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:44.039
<v Speaker 2>for inspection, he first test said, well, you you're completely

682
00:48:44.039 --> 00:48:46.639
<v Speaker 2>gone nuts. You can't run around and with that had gear,

683
00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:49.559
<v Speaker 2>because nobody had that at the time. Nobody was wearing

684
00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:54.800
<v Speaker 2>berets and that was very very unusual either in the

685
00:48:55.079 --> 00:48:59.880
<v Speaker 2>in the army nor in the Border Patrol, the Border Guard,

686
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:03.880
<v Speaker 2>so that was very out of the ordinary. But then

687
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:07.000
<v Speaker 2>they convinced him to do it anyway, and that stuck

688
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:10.840
<v Speaker 2>with it and it didn't take long until other units

689
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:15.559
<v Speaker 2>within the Border Patrol were also wearing berets, and up

690
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:16.800
<v Speaker 2>to this day that's the case.

691
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's just check and seeing that the pictures of

692
00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:22.159
<v Speaker 1>some of the heads of GSG nine, the pictures you

693
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:24.320
<v Speaker 1>have in your book, they're wearing berets. So that's a

694
00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:26.239
<v Speaker 1>tradition that stuck around.

695
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:31.760
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and they're very proud of their

696
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:36.079
<v Speaker 2>berets and also being like the first ones, as the

697
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:38.480
<v Speaker 2>GSG nine has been the first ones with a lot

698
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:43.440
<v Speaker 2>of stuff, and that is true for their uniforms, that's

699
00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:49.000
<v Speaker 2>true for their equipment. They kind of served as a yeah,

700
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:52.320
<v Speaker 2>as a think tank and workshop for the whole of

701
00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:57.000
<v Speaker 2>the Border Guard. So what they developed and they what

702
00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:03.960
<v Speaker 2>they deemed service soon would they way would make their

703
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:07.960
<v Speaker 2>way to other units as well of the Border Guard.

704
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:10.719
<v Speaker 2>And that is also true for the weaponry, of course,

705
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.480
<v Speaker 2>because what they had wouldn't serve them any good in

706
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:21.519
<v Speaker 2>any counter terrorished counter terrorist operation. So they talked to

707
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:27.639
<v Speaker 2>Heckler and Koch and to other manufacturers of weaponry and

708
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:34.000
<v Speaker 2>gave them their specifics. And basically a lot of new

709
00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:37.840
<v Speaker 2>developments were exclusive, not exclusively, but were first of all

710
00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:42.239
<v Speaker 2>made for GSG nine and they put it into service,

711
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:49.000
<v Speaker 2>like sharp shooting rifles and so on, and then they

712
00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:52.760
<v Speaker 2>made their way to the other units of the Buddu

713
00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:53.719
<v Speaker 2>Grand Shirts.

714
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:57.719
<v Speaker 1>So to kind of switch gears a little bit, I

715
00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:01.039
<v Speaker 1>want to ask you about the Red arm Faction or

716
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:05.000
<v Speaker 1>the Better Mine Off Gang. Who were they and what

717
00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:07.280
<v Speaker 1>were they up to in Germany at this time frame,

718
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:09.480
<v Speaker 1>because this is of course going to point into what

719
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:13.159
<v Speaker 1>we talk about next.

720
00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:18.559
<v Speaker 2>Right, The Banamnov Gang which was then later termed or

721
00:51:18.599 --> 00:51:23.320
<v Speaker 2>called itself Red Army Faction RAF so not to be

722
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:28.920
<v Speaker 2>confused with the Royal Air Force. They they were a

723
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:36.920
<v Speaker 2>result of the nineteen sixty eight sixty nine demonstrations the

724
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:43.000
<v Speaker 2>protests against the Vietnam War in Germany. There were big

725
00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:45.199
<v Speaker 2>protests in the US, of course, but they were also

726
00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:48.719
<v Speaker 2>in Germany and there was a big left wing movement

727
00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:55.480
<v Speaker 2>and some of those who protested there. Most of them stayed,

728
00:51:55.519 --> 00:52:01.079
<v Speaker 2>of course illegal, but some moved into illegal terror and

729
00:52:01.639 --> 00:52:07.679
<v Speaker 2>that The Bada Minehoff gang was one of those terrorist

730
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:12.480
<v Speaker 2>cells that established in the late nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies. Uh,

731
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:25.760
<v Speaker 2>and so Bada was I'm just forgetting the first name

732
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:29.880
<v Speaker 2>of Andreas. It was his name, Andreas Barda was the

733
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:34.760
<v Speaker 2>head of the whole thing, the basically, yeah, the male

734
00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:39.679
<v Speaker 2>head of the gang. And Rika Meinhoff was the intellectual

735
00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:45.559
<v Speaker 2>figurehead of this gang. And they came into existence, as

736
00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:49.119
<v Speaker 2>I said, in the late nineteen sixties, beginning nineteen seventies

737
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:57.880
<v Speaker 2>and committed In the beginning it was more like arsonists attack,

738
00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:04.440
<v Speaker 2>but then soon turned into deadly attacks against politicians and

739
00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:11.719
<v Speaker 2>against institutions, and just in the in the spring of

740
00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:18.039
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy two, there was a six week long offensive

741
00:53:18.519 --> 00:53:21.280
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy two they called it, with a lot of

742
00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:26.960
<v Speaker 2>attacks and killings. If I remember correctly, it was eight

743
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:32.719
<v Speaker 2>people were killed in that time against the state, the

744
00:53:32.760 --> 00:53:38.159
<v Speaker 2>West German state, and they were in the sub By

745
00:53:38.199 --> 00:53:40.679
<v Speaker 2>the summer, they were all incarcerated, All members of this

746
00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:45.519
<v Speaker 2>gang were incarcerated and waiting for trial, and that was

747
00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:50.079
<v Speaker 2>then when the Olympic massacre happened in the summer, and

748
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:54.800
<v Speaker 2>so of course the terrorists demanded the release also of

749
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:59.079
<v Speaker 2>these the terrorists of the Red Army faction of the

750
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:07.440
<v Speaker 2>Battle Meinhoff, who had been trained before by Palestinian terrorists.

751
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:11.480
<v Speaker 2>And so there was a very very close connection between

752
00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:16.039
<v Speaker 2>the German terrorist RAF faction and other German terrorist groups

753
00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:20.400
<v Speaker 2>and Palestinian terrorists groups like the p p F LP,

754
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:24.559
<v Speaker 2>and so that's what it came about. And it was

755
00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:29.880
<v Speaker 2>clear when GSG nine was established that RAF would be

756
00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:34.760
<v Speaker 2>one of their yeah most exquisite opponents, and that they

757
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:38.760
<v Speaker 2>would it would be necessary to mainly fight against them,

758
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:43.320
<v Speaker 2>that when a terrorist threat would arise, it would probably

759
00:54:43.400 --> 00:54:46.760
<v Speaker 2>be the RAF that they would have to go against.

760
00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Was there, I mean, this is probably a little controversial,

761
00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:53.440
<v Speaker 1>but was there ever any connections between the r a

762
00:54:53.639 --> 00:55:00.000
<v Speaker 1>F and any of the Warsaw Pact intelligence services?

763
00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:03.039
<v Speaker 2>Sorry you were blocked out for just ten seconds.

764
00:55:03.159 --> 00:55:06.199
<v Speaker 1>I was just asking this is a little controversial. But

765
00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:10.599
<v Speaker 1>was there ever any evidence of the RAF working in

766
00:55:10.639 --> 00:55:14.599
<v Speaker 1>tandem with any of the intelligence services in the Warsaw Pact.

767
00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:22.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes, there is, It's not controversial. That is well established

768
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:26.559
<v Speaker 2>that there was cooperation. I'm not sure if that was

769
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:30.320
<v Speaker 2>already in the early years like nineteen seventy two or

770
00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:35.760
<v Speaker 2>even nineteen seventy seven. I know that there was cooperation

771
00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:40.400
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen eighties and a lot of or quite

772
00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:51.079
<v Speaker 2>quite a few of those RAF combatants terrorists, they went

773
00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:54.559
<v Speaker 2>to the GDR to Eastern Germany to live there to

774
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:59.400
<v Speaker 2>avoid being captured in West Germany. So yeah, their close

775
00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:04.840
<v Speaker 2>connection to the Shtazi, the Stazi Schahaide. I think it

776
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:09.199
<v Speaker 2>is it is established that there were the connections, how

777
00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:12.400
<v Speaker 2>deep they were. I think this is not completely uncovered

778
00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:15.199
<v Speaker 2>so far. I'm not sure if it will be uncovered

779
00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:20.840
<v Speaker 2>because the documents have been destroyed as far as I know,

780
00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:25.920
<v Speaker 2>so there there might be not not much to discover

781
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:28.800
<v Speaker 2>anymore then there is, but I think the documents are

782
00:56:28.840 --> 00:56:29.320
<v Speaker 2>just missing.

783
00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:34.800
<v Speaker 1>And also in the lead up to what we're what

784
00:56:34.840 --> 00:56:37.440
<v Speaker 1>we're working up to here is there was another incident

785
00:56:37.480 --> 00:56:42.239
<v Speaker 1>too where there was a demands for several RAF terrorists

786
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.599
<v Speaker 1>to be released. They were sent to third countries, but

787
00:56:45.639 --> 00:56:47.440
<v Speaker 1>then they came right back to Germany and went back

788
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:49.280
<v Speaker 1>to their life of crime, right.

789
00:56:51.079 --> 00:56:57.000
<v Speaker 2>Right. That was in nineteen seventy five when when the

790
00:56:57.679 --> 00:57:04.480
<v Speaker 2>that was not RAF, that was the revolution the Revolutionary Cells,

791
00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:09.719
<v Speaker 2>when they abducted the candidate, the Conservative candidate for the

792
00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:13.480
<v Speaker 2>mayor of Berlin for a couple of days, and so

793
00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:20.639
<v Speaker 2>they demanded the release of hostages, sorry, the release of

794
00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:25.559
<v Speaker 2>prisoners from German prisons. As it's always the case, the

795
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:30.159
<v Speaker 2>these whole this whole endeavor of the German terrorists soon

796
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:34.760
<v Speaker 2>turned into liberate the guerrilla gorilla, you know. So they

797
00:57:35.480 --> 00:57:42.039
<v Speaker 2>fought for release of their prisoners, and there were RAF

798
00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:46.239
<v Speaker 2>prisoners as well that were supposed to be released. They

799
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:49.800
<v Speaker 2>were very close connected the Revolutionary Cells and the RAF.

800
00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:53.480
<v Speaker 2>Partly the personnel was the same, different name, but the

801
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:59.199
<v Speaker 2>same people. So that was the abduction of this candidate

802
00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:04.639
<v Speaker 2>and the German government under Helmut Schmidt. It will become

803
00:58:04.679 --> 00:58:09.960
<v Speaker 2>important in a moment they decided, and Helmuch Schmidt decided

804
00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:14.840
<v Speaker 2>to say, okay, we will give in, we release these prisoners.

805
00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:18.000
<v Speaker 2>We demand that they leave Germany and never come back.

806
00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:26.000
<v Speaker 2>That was what was agreed, and so the candidate for

807
00:58:26.039 --> 00:58:30.760
<v Speaker 2>the mayor of Berlin. He was released, and the prisoners

808
00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:35.920
<v Speaker 2>were released, and they were put into aircraft and sent

809
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:40.840
<v Speaker 2>away into the destinations they gave. They probably most of

810
00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:43.320
<v Speaker 2>them in the Middle of Middle East countries in the

811
00:58:43.320 --> 00:58:47.480
<v Speaker 2>Middle East who would receive them. But it didn't take

812
00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:50.719
<v Speaker 2>very long for them to just show up in Germany

813
00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:55.000
<v Speaker 2>again and then continue their terrorist career. And that was

814
00:58:55.280 --> 00:58:59.639
<v Speaker 2>the moment when Helmut Schmidt, Chancellor, when he decided, Okay,

815
00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:04.920
<v Speaker 2>we will not play this game again. Next time, we

816
00:59:05.039 --> 00:59:09.599
<v Speaker 2>will remain strong and will not give in to the demands,

817
00:59:09.719 --> 00:59:15.320
<v Speaker 2>because this just leads to an encouragement to commit further

818
00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:22.039
<v Speaker 2>terrorist attacks, to have more abduction and press free more

819
00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:25.679
<v Speaker 2>prisoners from their side. So this is a game we

820
00:59:25.719 --> 00:59:28.800
<v Speaker 2>cannot win if we give in. And that was the

821
00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:31.559
<v Speaker 2>moment when he decided, okay, next time, we will do

822
00:59:31.639 --> 00:59:33.239
<v Speaker 2>it differently, all right.

823
00:59:33.280 --> 00:59:35.800
<v Speaker 1>So let's jump into the next time in this whole

824
00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:40.440
<v Speaker 1>sequence of events that kind of culminates with this pretty

825
00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:46.639
<v Speaker 1>epic GSG nine operation in Moked issue. To start at

826
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:49.280
<v Speaker 1>the beginning, tell us about the kidnapping of the head

827
00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:51.360
<v Speaker 1>of the employers Association.

828
00:59:53.719 --> 01:00:00.760
<v Speaker 2>That was in September, on September fifth, nineteen seve seventy seven.

829
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:06.599
<v Speaker 2>And if you remember the attack on the Olympic team,

830
01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:10.400
<v Speaker 2>the Israel Olympic team was on fifth September the fifth,

831
01:00:10.519 --> 01:00:13.719
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy two. So it was to the day five

832
01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:22.719
<v Speaker 2>years after that terrible event in Munich. And so Hans

833
01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:27.400
<v Speaker 2>Martin Schleier, who was an industrial leader, he was called

834
01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:30.199
<v Speaker 2>the boss of the bosses in Germany. So he was

835
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:35.559
<v Speaker 2>a very high ranking industrial, very powerful person. He was

836
01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:43.519
<v Speaker 2>abducted here in Cologne. And basically if you see the

837
01:00:44.360 --> 01:00:46.480
<v Speaker 2>if you see the photos from the crime scene, it

838
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:52.880
<v Speaker 2>looks like a Hollywood movie. And so his personal detail

839
01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:57.719
<v Speaker 2>and his driver, four people sitting with him in his

840
01:00:57.760 --> 01:01:01.760
<v Speaker 2>car were shot, they were killed, and he himself was

841
01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:07.519
<v Speaker 2>abducted by the Red Army faction. One must say this

842
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:11.599
<v Speaker 2>wasn't the first incident in this year. It was the

843
01:01:11.639 --> 01:01:16.280
<v Speaker 2>third abduction or killing in this year. A couple of

844
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:24.119
<v Speaker 2>months before, the Attorney General Bubak He was killed on

845
01:01:24.159 --> 01:01:28.800
<v Speaker 2>the street by RAF. Then a couple of weeks later

846
01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Jugen Ponto, the boss of the Deutsche Bank, was killed.

847
01:01:36.440 --> 01:01:39.320
<v Speaker 2>As it turned out later that was the first attempt

848
01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:45.519
<v Speaker 2>to abduct one political figurehead, or not a political but

849
01:01:45.639 --> 01:01:49.679
<v Speaker 2>a financial figurehead. But the abduction failed and so they

850
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:52.480
<v Speaker 2>just killed him. And now this was the third one,

851
01:01:53.360 --> 01:01:56.719
<v Speaker 2>and this was the beginning of what now is called

852
01:01:56.760 --> 01:02:01.519
<v Speaker 2>the Deutsche Abs, the Deutsche Abs, the German Autumn, and

853
01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:05.559
<v Speaker 2>that was the six weeks that would lead from the

854
01:02:05.599 --> 01:02:11.320
<v Speaker 2>abduction of Hans Martin Schleier two then the operation in Mogadishu.

855
01:02:11.719 --> 01:02:15.559
<v Speaker 2>That's when it started. And it was a situation and

856
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:19.199
<v Speaker 2>atmosphere here in Germany. I can't remember it. I was

857
01:02:19.239 --> 01:02:21.559
<v Speaker 2>five years all that at the time, but from my

858
01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:26.239
<v Speaker 2>parents and from everybody who has consciously witnessed this time

859
01:02:26.679 --> 01:02:31.119
<v Speaker 2>was really scared because it was a very spooky atmosphere

860
01:02:31.639 --> 01:02:36.039
<v Speaker 2>atmosphere when Hans Martin Schleier was abducted. This triggered the

861
01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:41.920
<v Speaker 2>largest search operation in German history. Tens of thousands of

862
01:02:42.039 --> 01:02:49.719
<v Speaker 2>policemen were involved. You had checkpoints established, cars were searched

863
01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:55.719
<v Speaker 2>when you wanted posters everywhere, when you looked alike a

864
01:02:55.719 --> 01:02:59.239
<v Speaker 2>little bit like people from the RAF or if you

865
01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:03.400
<v Speaker 2>drove a car of the same make that they would

866
01:03:03.480 --> 01:03:07.199
<v Speaker 2>be known to be driving, then you would be stopped

867
01:03:07.239 --> 01:03:14.119
<v Speaker 2>and searched with submachine guns. Officers with submachine guns standing by,

868
01:03:14.239 --> 01:03:17.480
<v Speaker 2>something that has never happened before in Germany. You know,

869
01:03:18.039 --> 01:03:21.599
<v Speaker 2>German police was usually you know, the friendly cop on

870
01:03:21.639 --> 01:03:27.480
<v Speaker 2>the corner and he would not be threatened with anything

871
01:03:27.800 --> 01:03:33.599
<v Speaker 2>more than a truncheon. So this was really an extraordinary situation.

872
01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:36.679
<v Speaker 2>And that went on for weeks on end because he

873
01:03:36.760 --> 01:03:40.719
<v Speaker 2>was abducted and never found. And GSG nine was involved

874
01:03:41.360 --> 01:03:45.199
<v Speaker 2>in the search for Hans Martin Schleier. They searched apartments,

875
01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:49.760
<v Speaker 2>they searched whole buildings, but they never succeeded. Sometimes they

876
01:03:50.239 --> 01:03:55.519
<v Speaker 2>seemed to have been very close, with you know, entering rooms,

877
01:03:56.239 --> 01:04:00.079
<v Speaker 2>empty beds, the bed still warm, coffee warm, cigarettes st

878
01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:04.480
<v Speaker 2>smoking on the table, and so they seemed to have

879
01:04:04.559 --> 01:04:09.800
<v Speaker 2>been sometimes very very close, but they never got him.

880
01:04:10.280 --> 01:04:16.079
<v Speaker 2>And then on October thirteenth, nineteen seventy seven, there was

881
01:04:16.159 --> 01:04:23.599
<v Speaker 2>the news that an aircraft has changed its course over

882
01:04:23.679 --> 01:04:27.639
<v Speaker 2>France and it was obviously abducted. And that's when the

883
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:29.159
<v Speaker 2>Mugadisha story began.

884
01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:33.159
<v Speaker 1>And so tell us about that. Did GSG nine get

885
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:38.440
<v Speaker 1>pulled off of the search because that was a Luftanza aircraft.

886
01:04:40.639 --> 01:04:45.400
<v Speaker 2>Right, it was not clear at the beginning, wasn't really

887
01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:49.800
<v Speaker 2>an abduction. The skyjacking that that took a couple of hours,

888
01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:54.519
<v Speaker 2>but at the time GSG nine was just busy as well. Again,

889
01:04:54.639 --> 01:04:59.239
<v Speaker 2>here in Cologne, there's a very very big residential building

890
01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:02.559
<v Speaker 2>called the Uni Center. It's close to the University of Colonne.

891
01:05:02.559 --> 01:05:05.920
<v Speaker 2>A lot of students live there and it's a complex

892
01:05:06.119 --> 01:05:10.719
<v Speaker 2>of some nine hundred and sixty I think apartments there,

893
01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:15.280
<v Speaker 2>so a huge building, and GSG nine was there the

894
01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:19.280
<v Speaker 2>whole day, searching from the ground up, from the top down,

895
01:05:19.519 --> 01:05:24.880
<v Speaker 2>from the inside and from the outside. And they were

896
01:05:25.239 --> 01:05:29.920
<v Speaker 2>like climbing with ladders outside from balcony to balcony, going

897
01:05:29.960 --> 01:05:33.920
<v Speaker 2>into the apartment and searching for Hans Martin Schleier because

898
01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:38.079
<v Speaker 2>there was a car parked in the basement that obviously

899
01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:42.880
<v Speaker 2>was rented by the Red Army faction, so they suspected

900
01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:46.480
<v Speaker 2>and there was a suspicious apartment there that they had

901
01:05:46.519 --> 01:05:50.159
<v Speaker 2>searched before, and so there was the suspicion that he

902
01:05:50.440 --> 01:05:53.719
<v Speaker 2>was stashed somewhere in one of these more than nine

903
01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:56.639
<v Speaker 2>hundred apartments. So the whole day they were searching this

904
01:05:56.719 --> 01:06:00.360
<v Speaker 2>whole building, and in the afternoon, when they were almost finished,

905
01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:05.519
<v Speaker 2>the news came in that this plane has been deviating

906
01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:09.360
<v Speaker 2>from its original course, they were started in Majorcar island

907
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:12.280
<v Speaker 2>of Majorca. So it was a tourist plane by Lufthansa,

908
01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:16.760
<v Speaker 2>mostly German passengers on board, on their way back to Frankfurt,

909
01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:22.800
<v Speaker 2>but they deviated and then ended up in Rome. And

910
01:06:22.840 --> 01:06:26.719
<v Speaker 2>so while they were on their way to Rome GG

911
01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:31.760
<v Speaker 2>nine Ulrichvigna he got the information from the crisis staff

912
01:06:31.800 --> 01:06:35.159
<v Speaker 2>in Bond, which had been established after the abduction of

913
01:06:35.239 --> 01:06:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Hans Martin Schleier, the industrial boss, and he was ordered to, yeah,

914
01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:47.079
<v Speaker 2>take action and start the pursuit of this Lufthanza aircraft

915
01:06:47.400 --> 01:06:50.519
<v Speaker 2>to see what is possible. By that time it was

916
01:06:50.559 --> 01:06:54.239
<v Speaker 2>not clear that there would be an actual liberation operation,

917
01:06:55.000 --> 01:06:58.800
<v Speaker 2>but they should just you know, prepare for the eventuality.

918
01:07:00.039 --> 01:07:02.679
<v Speaker 1>And as I recall, the Italians weren't a lot of

919
01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:04.920
<v Speaker 1>help as they just wanted the aircraft out of their

920
01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:08.199
<v Speaker 1>country as fast as possible. So by the time Wagner

921
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:12.760
<v Speaker 1>got out of Germany, the terrorists hijacked aircraft was heading

922
01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:13.920
<v Speaker 1>to Cyprus.

923
01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:19.559
<v Speaker 2>That's correct. Yes, that was not the only government though,

924
01:07:19.599 --> 01:07:23.440
<v Speaker 2>the Italians that were happy when the plane took off

925
01:07:23.440 --> 01:07:26.280
<v Speaker 2>again when they could get rid of them, because you know,

926
01:07:26.679 --> 01:07:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that's always quite a big inconvenience. If you have a

927
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:37.000
<v Speaker 2>foreign aircraft on your style soil with hostages and terrorists

928
01:07:37.079 --> 01:07:42.079
<v Speaker 2>on board, so how do you react? What do you do? So, yeah,

929
01:07:41.599 --> 01:07:46.480
<v Speaker 2>the Minister of the Interior of Italy just allowed for

930
01:07:46.599 --> 01:07:52.679
<v Speaker 2>the aircraft to be refueled and then was very thankful

931
01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:58.039
<v Speaker 2>that they soon left and went to Cyprus. And so

932
01:07:58.880 --> 01:08:04.519
<v Speaker 2>when Wagner and twenty twenty people of the GSG nine,

933
01:08:04.639 --> 01:08:07.360
<v Speaker 2>when they were on their way to Rome, they heard

934
01:08:07.400 --> 01:08:09.679
<v Speaker 2>the news, Okay, now we have to go to Cyprus.

935
01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:13.960
<v Speaker 2>When they arrived in Cyprus, they already knew that the

936
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:19.159
<v Speaker 2>aircraft was again had taken off and was heading towards

937
01:08:19.199 --> 01:08:22.000
<v Speaker 2>the Middle East, where they tried to land in the

938
01:08:22.079 --> 01:08:25.279
<v Speaker 2>Lebanon and in other countries, I think four or five

939
01:08:25.399 --> 01:08:29.680
<v Speaker 2>countries who denied the landing of the aircraft because nobody

940
01:08:29.720 --> 01:08:33.600
<v Speaker 2>wanted to have them. And so finally they ended up

941
01:08:33.720 --> 01:08:37.079
<v Speaker 2>in Dubai. But that was, you know, that was almost

942
01:08:37.319 --> 01:08:43.640
<v Speaker 2>a day later, and Vigna then ended up in with

943
01:08:44.119 --> 01:08:50.640
<v Speaker 2>the plane in Turkey in Ankora because they were supposed

944
01:08:50.680 --> 01:08:53.399
<v Speaker 2>so it was not only GSG nine on the airplane,

945
01:08:53.680 --> 01:08:57.079
<v Speaker 2>but also people from the Ministry of the Interior, from

946
01:08:57.159 --> 01:09:04.600
<v Speaker 2>the Bunesqueminala, the Federal Crime Administration or criminal administration, and

947
01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:09.319
<v Speaker 2>all these these guys on board, and they had they

948
01:09:09.359 --> 01:09:12.560
<v Speaker 2>had the order to ask the Turkish government what they

949
01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:16.359
<v Speaker 2>thought of the whole thing, because the demand of the

950
01:09:16.560 --> 01:09:25.039
<v Speaker 2>terrorists was to liberate a couple to liberate the German

951
01:09:25.479 --> 01:09:30.600
<v Speaker 2>RAF terrorists, but also a couple of Turkish terrorists. So

952
01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:33.560
<v Speaker 2>they went to Ancora to ask, okay, what do you

953
01:09:33.600 --> 01:09:36.319
<v Speaker 2>guys think of it, and how do you want to

954
01:09:36.359 --> 01:09:40.720
<v Speaker 2>participate in The Turkish just said, well, well, you do

955
01:09:40.800 --> 01:09:43.199
<v Speaker 2>whatever you think you have to do and keep us

956
01:09:43.199 --> 01:09:46.560
<v Speaker 2>out of the whole thing. And so they were in

957
01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:50.920
<v Speaker 2>Ankara where they were detected by a camera team, and

958
01:09:51.319 --> 01:09:55.119
<v Speaker 2>soon enough not only the Turkish public but also the

959
01:09:55.439 --> 01:10:00.279
<v Speaker 2>German published public knew that gez G nine were in

960
01:10:00.319 --> 01:10:06.960
<v Speaker 2>pursuit of the aircraft and that was of course not

961
01:10:07.039 --> 01:10:10.560
<v Speaker 2>a good thing. So they were ordered back to Germany.

962
01:10:11.319 --> 01:10:16.680
<v Speaker 2>They couldn't do that, and the officially the Turkish government said,

963
01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:19.920
<v Speaker 2>well we don't. Of course, we don't allow a German

964
01:10:21.239 --> 01:10:26.159
<v Speaker 2>army unit in Ankara on our soil. We can't have that.

965
01:10:27.800 --> 01:10:31.279
<v Speaker 2>So they couldn't officially just leave them there, so they

966
01:10:31.319 --> 01:10:33.720
<v Speaker 2>had to send them back. Of course, there was a

967
01:10:33.720 --> 01:10:36.479
<v Speaker 2>police police unit, but that didn't matter at the moment,

968
01:10:36.520 --> 01:10:41.640
<v Speaker 2>at this very moment. So what happened was that most

969
01:10:41.680 --> 01:10:46.199
<v Speaker 2>of the GSG nine had to go back, but Wigner

970
01:10:46.399 --> 01:10:51.319
<v Speaker 2>talked to Chancellor Helmut Schmidt and he got his the

971
01:10:51.439 --> 01:10:56.279
<v Speaker 2>okay to select a couple of people to take up

972
01:10:56.319 --> 01:10:59.880
<v Speaker 2>the pursuit again in a smaller aircraft. And that's what

973
01:11:00.079 --> 01:11:16.159
<v Speaker 2>he did. He chose his adjutants, I don't know, I'm.

974
01:11:10.760 --> 01:11:14.640
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, like his deputy, his executive officer exactly.

975
01:11:14.760 --> 01:11:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and he chose Dita Fox for whatever reason never

976
01:11:19.800 --> 01:11:22.439
<v Speaker 2>known to this day, but he wanted to have him

977
01:11:22.520 --> 01:11:28.760
<v Speaker 2>on his side. So three GSG nine guys then took

978
01:11:28.880 --> 01:11:34.680
<v Speaker 2>up the pursuit of the the abducted aircraft. And yeah,

979
01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:40.199
<v Speaker 2>that developed into an odyssey because they first ended up

980
01:11:40.279 --> 01:11:48.439
<v Speaker 2>in in Dubai and there they they had the idea

981
01:11:48.439 --> 01:11:51.960
<v Speaker 2>that they could do something and start a liberation attempt,

982
01:11:52.479 --> 01:11:57.680
<v Speaker 2>but they ran into trouble because the Shake of Dubai

983
01:11:59.199 --> 01:12:01.359
<v Speaker 2>he didn't like the idea, and he said, well, if

984
01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:04.039
<v Speaker 2>there will be a liberation attempt, I will have my

985
01:12:04.239 --> 01:12:08.920
<v Speaker 2>rangers do that, and maybe you can show them how

986
01:12:08.960 --> 01:12:12.119
<v Speaker 2>you do that. So they can do it in a

987
01:12:12.159 --> 01:12:17.479
<v Speaker 2>better fashion. And of course GESG nine had trained for

988
01:12:18.399 --> 01:12:23.680
<v Speaker 2>the liberation of aircraft for years on end. That was

989
01:12:23.760 --> 01:12:27.159
<v Speaker 2>something they really specialized in because, as we said in

990
01:12:27.199 --> 01:12:31.920
<v Speaker 2>the beginning, there were a lot of skyjacking incidents in

991
01:12:31.960 --> 01:12:35.359
<v Speaker 2>the late nineteen sixties in nineteen seventies, and it was

992
01:12:35.439 --> 01:12:42.680
<v Speaker 2>clear from the outset that skyjacks skyjackings will be the

993
01:12:42.680 --> 01:12:47.680
<v Speaker 2>most probable situation scenario that GESG nine would have to

994
01:12:47.760 --> 01:12:52.079
<v Speaker 2>deal with. And so for days on end and nights

995
01:12:52.119 --> 01:12:57.199
<v Speaker 2>on end, they practiced aircraft assaults and did it over

996
01:12:57.239 --> 01:13:01.439
<v Speaker 2>and over again, very very detailed, very specific in what

997
01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:04.399
<v Speaker 2>they did and how they did it, and learn every

998
01:13:04.479 --> 01:13:09.079
<v Speaker 2>detail because it's the details that count in such a situation.

999
01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:15.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, the liberation of an aircraft is basically the

1000
01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:22.600
<v Speaker 2>highest level of liberation that you can have. A room

1001
01:13:22.760 --> 01:13:26.479
<v Speaker 2>is difficult, a car or bus is even more difficult,

1002
01:13:27.279 --> 01:13:32.399
<v Speaker 2>a train very very difficult. Boat, yes, one more step.

1003
01:13:32.760 --> 01:13:35.239
<v Speaker 2>But since you don't know what is going on inside

1004
01:13:35.239 --> 01:13:37.760
<v Speaker 2>an aircraft and you only have those tiny windows and

1005
01:13:37.840 --> 01:13:40.479
<v Speaker 2>usually the blinds are shut. In situations like that, you

1006
01:13:40.520 --> 01:13:42.800
<v Speaker 2>have no idea what is going on, and you only

1007
01:13:42.840 --> 01:13:46.279
<v Speaker 2>have very few access points. So you really have to

1008
01:13:46.359 --> 01:13:51.279
<v Speaker 2>train and exercise a lot in order to be able

1009
01:13:51.359 --> 01:13:55.399
<v Speaker 2>to do that. So now they're in Dubai and they

1010
01:13:57.239 --> 01:13:59.920
<v Speaker 2>are being told, well, okay, show our ranges in after

1011
01:14:00.119 --> 01:14:02.880
<v Speaker 2>know how you deal with such a threat, how you

1012
01:14:03.119 --> 01:14:09.119
<v Speaker 2>do an aircraft assault, And that's what they tried, and

1013
01:14:09.159 --> 01:14:13.680
<v Speaker 2>that's what they tried to teach them, but it failed.

1014
01:14:13.920 --> 01:14:18.920
<v Speaker 2>And they tried to convince the Shake that it would

1015
01:14:19.000 --> 01:14:22.439
<v Speaker 2>be better if the Germans did it, but he would

1016
01:14:22.439 --> 01:14:26.600
<v Speaker 2>not have it and would just insist that his people

1017
01:14:26.640 --> 01:14:34.479
<v Speaker 2>would do it. But before this actually could put into practice,

1018
01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:41.720
<v Speaker 2>the land Suit that's the name of the aircraft, it

1019
01:14:41.800 --> 01:14:46.439
<v Speaker 2>took off again and nobody would know where they would

1020
01:14:46.479 --> 01:14:54.319
<v Speaker 2>be going. And so they followed them once again and

1021
01:14:54.520 --> 01:15:02.960
<v Speaker 2>went to Arden and where the aircraft was was touching

1022
01:15:03.039 --> 01:15:07.279
<v Speaker 2>down again. They didn't get they were not allowed to

1023
01:15:07.359 --> 01:15:10.119
<v Speaker 2>land there, but they did it anyway. The the the

1024
01:15:10.399 --> 01:15:17.239
<v Speaker 2>runway was ploged, was blocked by tanks, but the co

1025
01:15:17.399 --> 01:15:22.600
<v Speaker 2>pilot he sat down the the aircraft on basically on

1026
01:15:22.640 --> 01:15:25.640
<v Speaker 2>the on the it was like.

1027
01:15:27.680 --> 01:15:35.880
<v Speaker 5>The runway, yeah, and so they they thought that the

1028
01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:39.079
<v Speaker 5>landing gear was was affected by that because it was

1029
01:15:39.159 --> 01:15:41.920
<v Speaker 5>just you know, it was just a sand track.

1030
01:15:42.159 --> 01:15:45.159
<v Speaker 2>That they were landing on. They had to, they didn't

1031
01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:49.560
<v Speaker 2>have any fuel left in the tanks anymore. So they

1032
01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:53.439
<v Speaker 2>sat down there on the tracks and the captain of

1033
01:15:53.560 --> 01:15:58.319
<v Speaker 2>the aircraft, Captain Schumann, he said, well, I have to

1034
01:15:58.359 --> 01:16:00.920
<v Speaker 2>check the landing gear. And he was allowed by the

1035
01:16:01.039 --> 01:16:04.039
<v Speaker 2>terrorists to step outside and check the landing gear. But

1036
01:16:04.439 --> 01:16:08.359
<v Speaker 2>he didn't return for more than half an hour, almost

1037
01:16:08.359 --> 01:16:12.720
<v Speaker 2>an hour, and so the terrorists got nervous, and when

1038
01:16:12.720 --> 01:16:17.399
<v Speaker 2>he finally came back, he the leader of the terrorists

1039
01:16:17.880 --> 01:16:21.199
<v Speaker 2>got very, very angry and shouted at him and had

1040
01:16:21.239 --> 01:16:25.239
<v Speaker 2>him kneel befront him and kneel before him in the

1041
01:16:25.279 --> 01:16:29.319
<v Speaker 2>middle aisle of the aircraft. You must imagine like passengers

1042
01:16:29.359 --> 01:16:32.479
<v Speaker 2>left and right, and in the middle of the middle aisle.

1043
01:16:33.560 --> 01:16:36.199
<v Speaker 2>He would have him kneel and ask him what did

1044
01:16:36.199 --> 01:16:37.359
<v Speaker 2>you do? What do you do to do? And he

1045
01:16:37.399 --> 01:16:41.159
<v Speaker 2>said nothing, I just checked the gear. And then the

1046
01:16:41.439 --> 01:16:44.960
<v Speaker 2>terrorist leader of the terrorists executed him with a shot

1047
01:16:44.960 --> 01:16:49.199
<v Speaker 2>in the head. So that was the moment when G

1048
01:16:50.119 --> 01:16:55.720
<v Speaker 2>nine learned of that mass of that assassin, of that killing,

1049
01:16:57.479 --> 01:17:01.079
<v Speaker 2>that they knew, Okay, it's very probable that we reach

1050
01:17:01.199 --> 01:17:05.000
<v Speaker 2>a solution, peaceful solution. It will be a violent solution

1051
01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:11.840
<v Speaker 2>necessary in order to end this whole thing. So GC

1052
01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:17.520
<v Speaker 2>nine was not allowed to touchdown in Arden. They deviated

1053
01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:24.479
<v Speaker 2>and then finally the ones who took off from Arden

1054
01:17:24.560 --> 01:17:27.720
<v Speaker 2>and a couple of hours later they ended in Mogadishu.

1055
01:17:27.800 --> 01:17:32.760
<v Speaker 2>What I've told now took place over four days. So

1056
01:17:33.039 --> 01:17:37.520
<v Speaker 2>this this is basically a very concise, even though I've

1057
01:17:37.520 --> 01:17:41.159
<v Speaker 2>talked for quite a bit, This is a concise, very

1058
01:17:41.279 --> 01:17:46.000
<v Speaker 2>very shortened version of what happened there in these five days.

1059
01:17:46.880 --> 01:17:51.760
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, that was that was this the story that

1060
01:17:51.880 --> 01:17:57.520
<v Speaker 2>led to Mogadishu. And in Mogadishu, of course, vy Vigna

1061
01:17:57.680 --> 01:18:06.319
<v Speaker 2>then tried to convince the President of Somalia dictate dictator

1062
01:18:06.880 --> 01:18:12.520
<v Speaker 2>of the name bag that was his name. He tried

1063
01:18:12.520 --> 01:18:17.880
<v Speaker 2>to convince the dictator to have gs G nine do

1064
01:18:18.359 --> 01:18:21.399
<v Speaker 2>the raid, and it was more or less like a

1065
01:18:21.439 --> 01:18:23.760
<v Speaker 2>deja vu for him, because the president said, no, I

1066
01:18:23.800 --> 01:18:25.640
<v Speaker 2>have my own people I have arranged here. They can

1067
01:18:25.720 --> 01:18:27.880
<v Speaker 2>do that. You can show them how to do it.

1068
01:18:28.720 --> 01:18:36.720
<v Speaker 2>And so once again he ordered his guys to show

1069
01:18:36.800 --> 01:18:40.000
<v Speaker 2>the guys there on the ground how to do it.

1070
01:18:40.079 --> 01:18:44.880
<v Speaker 2>And it was even worse than in Dubai. And at

1071
01:18:44.880 --> 01:18:51.439
<v Speaker 2>some point the commander, the Somali commander said, okay, I agree,

1072
01:18:52.159 --> 01:18:54.520
<v Speaker 2>we can't do this. You do that, and then it

1073
01:18:54.560 --> 01:18:58.520
<v Speaker 2>took some convincing of the of the president until he

1074
01:18:58.600 --> 01:19:02.920
<v Speaker 2>finally agreed, okay, we have a foreign force, the German

1075
01:19:02.960 --> 01:19:09.479
<v Speaker 2>police force on Somali soil, conducting this operation. But finally

1076
01:19:10.039 --> 01:19:12.920
<v Speaker 2>that he agreed, and that was the point when they

1077
01:19:13.000 --> 01:19:15.520
<v Speaker 2>called in the rest of the GSG nine force that

1078
01:19:15.640 --> 01:19:20.000
<v Speaker 2>had been waiting in the Mediterranean in the meantime, and

1079
01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:27.279
<v Speaker 2>so they negotiated with the terrorists a couple of hours

1080
01:19:27.640 --> 01:19:31.239
<v Speaker 2>so that ges J nine they told them basically, okay,

1081
01:19:31.279 --> 01:19:36.560
<v Speaker 2>we have reached an agreement. We set your prisoners free.

1082
01:19:36.680 --> 01:19:41.000
<v Speaker 2>We follow your demands, but we need to, you know,

1083
01:19:41.039 --> 01:19:46.279
<v Speaker 2>bring all the prisoners from German prisons together and have

1084
01:19:46.479 --> 01:19:49.119
<v Speaker 2>to put them on an aircraft to then send them

1085
01:19:49.159 --> 01:19:52.359
<v Speaker 2>over to Somalia. So that takes a while. And that

1086
01:19:52.600 --> 01:19:55.840
<v Speaker 2>was the story that they told them. They never planned

1087
01:19:55.920 --> 01:19:59.600
<v Speaker 2>to do anything like that. It was just the explanation

1088
01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:03.039
<v Speaker 2>to gained time in order to get the GSG nineties

1089
01:20:03.159 --> 01:20:08.840
<v Speaker 2>to Somalia, to Mogadishu. And well, when they arrived, it

1090
01:20:08.960 --> 01:20:16.880
<v Speaker 2>was almost night and they started preparations for the assault

1091
01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:23.319
<v Speaker 2>and all the time the passengers on the plane. They

1092
01:20:23.359 --> 01:20:28.039
<v Speaker 2>were there, and their situation was very very miserable, very

1093
01:20:28.079 --> 01:20:31.800
<v Speaker 2>miserable because they had spent the last five days on

1094
01:20:31.840 --> 01:20:37.239
<v Speaker 2>this plane, and starting after two three days, the toilets

1095
01:20:37.239 --> 01:20:43.640
<v Speaker 2>were clogged. It was really disaster. They had no possibility

1096
01:20:43.680 --> 01:20:46.359
<v Speaker 2>to go to the toilet. They were forced to soil

1097
01:20:46.399 --> 01:20:52.000
<v Speaker 2>their seats. You can imagine what that means. The terrorists

1098
01:20:52.039 --> 01:20:56.199
<v Speaker 2>had taken all the purses and the hand baggage from

1099
01:20:56.279 --> 01:21:05.479
<v Speaker 2>the female terrorists, sorry, from the female hostages. So what happened.

1100
01:21:06.680 --> 01:21:09.000
<v Speaker 2>A lot of young ladies were on board and they

1101
01:21:09.239 --> 01:21:17.560
<v Speaker 2>didn't have the anpty reception, the birth control medication, yeah,

1102
01:21:18.119 --> 01:21:21.479
<v Speaker 2>the medication, they didn't have that, so they started to

1103
01:21:21.520 --> 01:21:26.159
<v Speaker 2>get their men's creation and so you know, all of

1104
01:21:26.199 --> 01:21:31.520
<v Speaker 2>this happened on board during this time, and it was

1105
01:21:31.920 --> 01:21:35.279
<v Speaker 2>really nasty inside and of course it was hot. They

1106
01:21:35.319 --> 01:21:38.000
<v Speaker 2>were sitting on the runway, they were only open to

1107
01:21:38.800 --> 01:21:42.159
<v Speaker 2>only able to open the door one door at a time,

1108
01:21:42.279 --> 01:21:45.359
<v Speaker 2>so there was no really exchange of air. It was

1109
01:21:45.560 --> 01:21:51.239
<v Speaker 2>really really a terrible condition for the hostages. And so yeah,

1110
01:21:51.279 --> 01:21:54.800
<v Speaker 2>in this situation, the preparations for the assault on the

1111
01:21:54.920 --> 01:21:59.000
<v Speaker 2>night of the eighteenth of October then began.

1112
01:22:01.560 --> 01:22:05.279
<v Speaker 1>And so Wagner is on the ground with I believe

1113
01:22:05.319 --> 01:22:09.680
<v Speaker 1>it was the German charge that's having to go through

1114
01:22:09.680 --> 01:22:11.760
<v Speaker 1>the political process and they get they have to go

1115
01:22:11.840 --> 01:22:13.600
<v Speaker 1>and get the okay from Helmut Schmidt.

1116
01:22:13.600 --> 01:22:20.119
<v Speaker 2>Correct. Yes, Ultimately it was Helmut Schmidt's decision. He had

1117
01:22:20.119 --> 01:22:24.479
<v Speaker 2>to give the order and he was back in Bond

1118
01:22:24.479 --> 01:22:28.159
<v Speaker 2>at the crisis staff. And the one has to imagine that,

1119
01:22:28.359 --> 01:22:33.600
<v Speaker 2>of course, the tele telecommunication system back then was much

1120
01:22:33.680 --> 01:22:38.119
<v Speaker 2>more rudimentary than it is today. You had that telephone

1121
01:22:38.159 --> 01:22:41.560
<v Speaker 2>lines where you had to shout into the speaker in

1122
01:22:41.680 --> 01:22:44.279
<v Speaker 2>order for somebody on the other end to hear anything,

1123
01:22:45.359 --> 01:22:49.319
<v Speaker 2>and so maybe telex, but that was about it. So

1124
01:22:49.720 --> 01:22:53.039
<v Speaker 2>he was reliant on the information that he was getting

1125
01:22:53.319 --> 01:23:00.359
<v Speaker 2>from the the charge de da Fair Libal was his name,

1126
01:23:00.760 --> 01:23:10.079
<v Speaker 2>and of the well he was ants Jung Vishnevsky. He

1127
01:23:10.199 --> 01:23:12.479
<v Speaker 2>was the Minister of State who was also sent there

1128
01:23:12.840 --> 01:23:16.760
<v Speaker 2>to negotiate with the President of Somalia. And he was

1129
01:23:17.520 --> 01:23:20.840
<v Speaker 2>on the plane for a couple of days, and he

1130
01:23:20.920 --> 01:23:23.960
<v Speaker 2>was very well known in the Middle East. He spoke

1131
01:23:25.239 --> 01:23:29.640
<v Speaker 2>the Arabian language and was very close as well with

1132
01:23:29.720 --> 01:23:33.720
<v Speaker 2>the with the Palestinians not so much, but with Arabian

1133
01:23:33.720 --> 01:23:36.279
<v Speaker 2>States and with the Israelis as well, So he was

1134
01:23:36.680 --> 01:23:40.199
<v Speaker 2>basically the chief negotiator in the cabinet of Helmuch Schmid,

1135
01:23:40.319 --> 01:23:43.479
<v Speaker 2>and he dealt with the president in the first place.

1136
01:23:44.119 --> 01:23:51.399
<v Speaker 2>And so yeah, he would then say, okay, I have

1137
01:23:51.600 --> 01:23:57.039
<v Speaker 2>Schmidt on the line, Helmuch Schmidt, and you have to

1138
01:23:57.079 --> 01:24:00.159
<v Speaker 2>give now the order to actually do that. And that

1139
01:24:00.279 --> 01:24:05.159
<v Speaker 2>was a very tough decision for the Chancellor because he

1140
01:24:05.239 --> 01:24:07.840
<v Speaker 2>knew that a lot of things can go wrong in

1141
01:24:07.880 --> 01:24:14.680
<v Speaker 2>such an operation. They didn't know if they had had

1142
01:24:14.720 --> 01:24:18.319
<v Speaker 2>explosives on board. They I think, yeah, they knew that

1143
01:24:18.399 --> 01:24:22.239
<v Speaker 2>there were explosives, but were they hots? Were they were

1144
01:24:22.279 --> 01:24:26.039
<v Speaker 2>the doors? For example? Did they put explosives on the

1145
01:24:26.079 --> 01:24:28.760
<v Speaker 2>door so when they would open the door that they

1146
01:24:28.800 --> 01:24:32.720
<v Speaker 2>would go off? Would they maybe blow off the whole

1147
01:24:33.119 --> 01:24:35.760
<v Speaker 2>the plane? That was a risk that he was taking

1148
01:24:35.840 --> 01:24:39.039
<v Speaker 2>and he had to make the decision to say, yes,

1149
01:24:40.159 --> 01:24:42.760
<v Speaker 2>we're going to do that. So it was for him

1150
01:24:42.920 --> 01:24:46.439
<v Speaker 2>it was politically a big gamble. His resignation letter was

1151
01:24:46.439 --> 01:24:51.760
<v Speaker 2>already written, just needed the signature, so if that whole

1152
01:24:51.800 --> 01:24:54.840
<v Speaker 2>operation had gone sideways, he would have stepped down the

1153
01:24:54.880 --> 01:25:00.439
<v Speaker 2>next morning. So it was a pivotal moment for this government,

1154
01:25:00.760 --> 01:25:05.359
<v Speaker 2>and to be honest, for the whole, for the whole

1155
01:25:05.359 --> 01:25:08.800
<v Speaker 2>country of Western Germany. And I think hardly imagine how

1156
01:25:09.199 --> 01:25:12.560
<v Speaker 2>it would have turned out if this operation had gone wrong.

1157
01:25:12.640 --> 01:25:16.000
<v Speaker 1>Didn't Dieter tell you that if it had gone south,

1158
01:25:16.159 --> 01:25:19.039
<v Speaker 1>the entire unit would probably be finished at that point.

1159
01:25:20.399 --> 01:25:25.159
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that is what Dieta Fox told me. He's very

1160
01:25:25.199 --> 01:25:29.079
<v Speaker 2>convinced of that, and he has discussed that with Ulrich

1161
01:25:29.159 --> 01:25:35.640
<v Speaker 2>Vigna several times, he told me. And I've talked to politicians.

1162
01:25:35.920 --> 01:25:40.720
<v Speaker 2>I've talked to a former Minister of the Interior who said,

1163
01:25:40.760 --> 01:25:43.239
<v Speaker 2>who denies that? Who says no, no, of course not.

1164
01:25:45.399 --> 01:25:49.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, things can happen. And maybe if this had

1165
01:25:49.920 --> 01:25:53.600
<v Speaker 2>gone if this had gone sideways, Grey nine would probably

1166
01:25:53.600 --> 01:26:00.600
<v Speaker 2>not have been abolished. But having said that, that would

1167
01:26:00.960 --> 01:26:04.680
<v Speaker 2>really have been the least of Germany's problems at that point,

1168
01:26:04.800 --> 01:26:08.239
<v Speaker 2>because this, as I said, this was really a pivotal

1169
01:26:08.319 --> 01:26:13.960
<v Speaker 2>moment in the history of Germany, of Western Germany at least,

1170
01:26:14.079 --> 01:26:16.279
<v Speaker 2>but I think for all of the German or whole

1171
01:26:16.359 --> 01:26:21.640
<v Speaker 2>of Germany, because this was really a test for the

1172
01:26:21.720 --> 01:26:24.880
<v Speaker 2>German state, for the rule of law, for the German democracy,

1173
01:26:25.399 --> 01:26:31.680
<v Speaker 2>this whole German autumn, as it is called today. That

1174
01:26:31.920 --> 01:26:37.000
<v Speaker 2>was putting Germany, the West German state, to the test.

1175
01:26:37.199 --> 01:26:41.720
<v Speaker 2>And if that had failed, as I said, I think

1176
01:26:42.439 --> 01:26:47.079
<v Speaker 2>the abolition or the ending the GSG nine would have

1177
01:26:47.079 --> 01:26:49.800
<v Speaker 2>been the least of the problems that would have come

1178
01:26:49.840 --> 01:26:50.279
<v Speaker 2>out of it.

1179
01:26:51.039 --> 01:26:54.760
<v Speaker 1>Before we get into the assault of the aircraft, one

1180
01:26:54.800 --> 01:26:57.479
<v Speaker 1>thing I want to mention that the terrorists who took

1181
01:26:57.520 --> 01:27:01.399
<v Speaker 1>over the aircraft was a Palestinian group, but they were

1182
01:27:01.399 --> 01:27:04.359
<v Speaker 1>doing this ostensibly sort of like as a favor to

1183
01:27:04.399 --> 01:27:05.119
<v Speaker 1>the RAF.

1184
01:27:05.239 --> 01:27:09.119
<v Speaker 2>Right, That's that's right. It was kind of a terror

1185
01:27:09.319 --> 01:27:16.239
<v Speaker 2>joint venture, so to speak. The relationships between the Yeah,

1186
01:27:16.279 --> 01:27:21.079
<v Speaker 2>the relationship between the Red Army Faction and the PFLP

1187
01:27:21.359 --> 01:27:25.279
<v Speaker 2>was quite close. As I said, the top members of

1188
01:27:25.439 --> 01:27:30.000
<v Speaker 2>the Bartomine of gang had been trained in Palestinian camps

1189
01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:34.520
<v Speaker 2>and so there were close relationships between the two. And

1190
01:27:35.000 --> 01:27:38.920
<v Speaker 2>there was also an agreement also with Japanese terrorist groups

1191
01:27:39.600 --> 01:27:43.520
<v Speaker 2>that in situations like these they could call in each

1192
01:27:43.600 --> 01:27:46.720
<v Speaker 2>other and to do jobs for them. And this is

1193
01:27:46.840 --> 01:27:51.760
<v Speaker 2>this is exactly what happened. It was about the whole

1194
01:27:52.439 --> 01:27:58.239
<v Speaker 2>abduction of Hans Martin Schleier was an RAF Red Army

1195
01:27:58.279 --> 01:28:05.920
<v Speaker 2>Faction operation. They wanted to have their prisoner's release, the

1196
01:28:05.960 --> 01:28:12.079
<v Speaker 2>original founding members of a Red Army faction, and so

1197
01:28:12.159 --> 01:28:16.319
<v Speaker 2>when this didn't work out, when the abduction dragged on

1198
01:28:16.520 --> 01:28:21.399
<v Speaker 2>for weeks on end, they decided to step up a

1199
01:28:21.439 --> 01:28:27.800
<v Speaker 2>bit to up the ante and then hired basically PFLP

1200
01:28:28.399 --> 01:28:34.359
<v Speaker 2>to abduct the Luftanza flight LH one it one and

1201
01:28:34.600 --> 01:28:38.079
<v Speaker 2>that's how it happened. Yeah, it's it's surprising, and you

1202
01:28:38.119 --> 01:28:42.880
<v Speaker 2>know they had their demands were the release of German prisoners.

1203
01:28:42.880 --> 01:28:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Why because of this tight connection.

1204
01:28:46.319 --> 01:28:47.479
<v Speaker 3>And as.

1205
01:28:48.840 --> 01:28:51.840
<v Speaker 1>Wagner is preparing for the assault, there's one final detail

1206
01:28:51.880 --> 01:28:54.319
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to mention. I thought it was very interesting.

1207
01:28:54.800 --> 01:28:57.319
<v Speaker 1>He noticed one of his men didn't have body armor,

1208
01:28:57.840 --> 01:28:59.600
<v Speaker 1>and so he takes off his and gives it to

1209
01:28:59.600 --> 01:29:02.199
<v Speaker 1>one of his men, and then he personally leads the

1210
01:29:02.199 --> 01:29:04.760
<v Speaker 1>assault on the aircraft. And like when I read that,

1211
01:29:04.840 --> 01:29:07.800
<v Speaker 1>I was like, okay, I understand immediately why these guys loved.

1212
01:29:07.640 --> 01:29:12.720
<v Speaker 2>Him, and that this is exactly the reason why. Yes,

1213
01:29:13.640 --> 01:29:18.640
<v Speaker 2>they were very happy because they received anti bullet vests,

1214
01:29:18.880 --> 01:29:23.199
<v Speaker 2>new anti bullet vests from the British. They supported the

1215
01:29:23.319 --> 01:29:27.760
<v Speaker 2>whole the whole operation quite a bit, and one of

1216
01:29:27.760 --> 01:29:32.159
<v Speaker 2>the things they brought along were these vests. But they

1217
01:29:32.199 --> 01:29:35.880
<v Speaker 2>were one short of these vests, so Vigna had one,

1218
01:29:36.600 --> 01:29:39.359
<v Speaker 2>and as you said, he just took it off, gave

1219
01:29:39.399 --> 01:29:43.039
<v Speaker 2>it to one of his of the one man without

1220
01:29:43.039 --> 01:29:47.079
<v Speaker 2>the vest, and then said, okay, I'll be in the front,

1221
01:29:48.239 --> 01:29:54.399
<v Speaker 2>and everybody after me. And that's why they loved him, really,

1222
01:29:54.840 --> 01:29:58.800
<v Speaker 2>they admired him deeply because he was not one to

1223
01:29:58.880 --> 01:30:03.119
<v Speaker 2>be in the background and you know, being on the

1224
01:30:03.119 --> 01:30:07.560
<v Speaker 2>commander's hill far away where the bullets can't reach them.

1225
01:30:07.720 --> 01:30:12.359
<v Speaker 2>But he was the one to say, okay, I'll be

1226
01:30:13.119 --> 01:30:16.079
<v Speaker 2>in the assault group. He didn't go in as the

1227
01:30:16.079 --> 01:30:19.159
<v Speaker 2>first one. He was I think the third or fourth one,

1228
01:30:20.079 --> 01:30:25.039
<v Speaker 2>but because they had set rules for who opens the door,

1229
01:30:25.079 --> 01:30:28.439
<v Speaker 2>who owns the latters, who goes in first, and so on,

1230
01:30:28.600 --> 01:30:32.800
<v Speaker 2>so they wouldn't disrupt that. But then Wagner went in

1231
01:30:32.920 --> 01:30:37.439
<v Speaker 2>and he is the only one to be known to

1232
01:30:37.720 --> 01:30:42.720
<v Speaker 2>have killed at least one of the terrorists. Otherwise it

1233
01:30:42.840 --> 01:30:47.520
<v Speaker 2>is not known who executed the terrorists.

1234
01:30:49.600 --> 01:30:52.560
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so walk us through the actual assault they have.

1235
01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:55.840
<v Speaker 1>The Chancellor of Germany says, this is a go. You

1236
01:30:55.920 --> 01:30:59.439
<v Speaker 1>got the green light. How do they decide when to

1237
01:30:59.520 --> 01:31:01.800
<v Speaker 1>execute this assault and go through with it?

1238
01:31:03.720 --> 01:31:08.800
<v Speaker 2>So they would approach the aircraft from the rear end

1239
01:31:09.439 --> 01:31:13.680
<v Speaker 2>so that nobody who was maybe accidentally we look outside

1240
01:31:14.039 --> 01:31:17.680
<v Speaker 2>would be able to see them. The approach took them

1241
01:31:17.920 --> 01:31:22.920
<v Speaker 2>about an hour. So they started at eleven at night,

1242
01:31:23.199 --> 01:31:27.399
<v Speaker 2>a local time, and it took them an hour to

1243
01:31:27.520 --> 01:31:32.600
<v Speaker 2>go there. There were like some twenty GSG nine men

1244
01:31:34.439 --> 01:31:41.760
<v Speaker 2>carrying six letters to always having two carrying six letters,

1245
01:31:42.439 --> 01:31:47.520
<v Speaker 2>two of each, and surrounding the surrounding dunes and dunes

1246
01:31:47.600 --> 01:31:54.760
<v Speaker 2>there were snipers, so they had, of course, I'm not

1247
01:31:54.840 --> 01:31:58.119
<v Speaker 2>sure how many. There was, like three or four sniper

1248
01:31:58.159 --> 01:32:04.680
<v Speaker 2>groups that would secure the approach, would start firing if

1249
01:32:04.760 --> 01:32:08.479
<v Speaker 2>accidentally a terrorist would look out over the window, or

1250
01:32:08.800 --> 01:32:12.079
<v Speaker 2>during the assault when somebody tried to escape, they had

1251
01:32:12.079 --> 01:32:18.479
<v Speaker 2>the order to terminate the threat, and so they approached

1252
01:32:18.720 --> 01:32:22.520
<v Speaker 2>very very slowly, very very silently, and die. The fox

1253
01:32:22.560 --> 01:32:25.680
<v Speaker 2>told me that it was really nerve wracking because they thought,

1254
01:32:25.680 --> 01:32:31.720
<v Speaker 2>because they were highly sensible to every noise, every little

1255
01:32:32.359 --> 01:32:35.439
<v Speaker 2>squeak and crack, and thought, well, they must hear us,

1256
01:32:35.479 --> 01:32:39.840
<v Speaker 2>they must hear us, which they didn't. Nobody looked out

1257
01:32:39.880 --> 01:32:42.600
<v Speaker 2>of the window, nobody looked out of the door. They

1258
01:32:42.640 --> 01:32:49.319
<v Speaker 2>were not detected. And then when they finally reached the aircraft.

1259
01:32:49.399 --> 01:32:53.840
<v Speaker 2>They had another problem because there were strong lights from

1260
01:32:54.239 --> 01:33:02.000
<v Speaker 2>the from the apron lighting up the the aircraft, so

1261
01:33:02.039 --> 01:33:07.800
<v Speaker 2>their shadows would cast under the under the body of

1262
01:33:07.840 --> 01:33:12.479
<v Speaker 2>the aircraft, and so if then somebody looked out, they

1263
01:33:12.520 --> 01:33:14.760
<v Speaker 2>would see, okay, they are shadows, there must be somebody

1264
01:33:15.319 --> 01:33:20.880
<v Speaker 2>underneath the aircraft. But also that didn't happen luckily, and

1265
01:33:21.279 --> 01:33:27.560
<v Speaker 2>so what they did is they checked with microphones on

1266
01:33:27.640 --> 01:33:33.640
<v Speaker 2>the body of the plane and checked noises. They tried

1267
01:33:33.680 --> 01:33:37.439
<v Speaker 2>to make sure by the negotiation team that the terrorists

1268
01:33:37.479 --> 01:33:40.399
<v Speaker 2>would be in the front of the aircraft in the cockpit,

1269
01:33:42.279 --> 01:33:49.159
<v Speaker 2>and then they leaned the ladders against the hull of

1270
01:33:49.199 --> 01:33:53.039
<v Speaker 2>the aircraft very very slowly, very silently, they crept up.

1271
01:33:54.800 --> 01:33:57.199
<v Speaker 2>It was a Boeing seven three seven, so not not

1272
01:33:57.640 --> 01:34:01.159
<v Speaker 2>a huge aircraft, so they had to be really careful

1273
01:34:01.800 --> 01:34:06.039
<v Speaker 2>not to start shaking the aircraft. You know, if you

1274
01:34:06.560 --> 01:34:08.520
<v Speaker 2>tread a little bit or if you push a little bit,

1275
01:34:08.720 --> 01:34:12.720
<v Speaker 2>it starts shaking, so that nobody inside notices it and

1276
01:34:12.800 --> 01:34:17.000
<v Speaker 2>it's really silent. And that took quite a while until

1277
01:34:17.039 --> 01:34:25.079
<v Speaker 2>everybody was in position. And as a distraction, they had

1278
01:34:25.279 --> 01:34:28.600
<v Speaker 2>ordered not ordered, but they had agreed with the Somali

1279
01:34:29.079 --> 01:34:33.319
<v Speaker 2>Air Force to light a fire just before the beginning

1280
01:34:33.319 --> 01:34:35.880
<v Speaker 2>of the operation in front of the cockpit, so that

1281
01:34:36.039 --> 01:34:44.119
<v Speaker 2>was a destruction measure, and then the two stunt grenades

1282
01:34:44.439 --> 01:34:49.159
<v Speaker 2>were thrown by British saf officers who were there to

1283
01:34:49.239 --> 01:34:53.840
<v Speaker 2>support the operation, and that's when it started. As soon

1284
01:34:53.880 --> 01:34:57.880
<v Speaker 2>as they exploded, all six doors were opened at the

1285
01:34:57.920 --> 01:35:04.720
<v Speaker 2>same time. They stormed in and started the firefight, which

1286
01:35:04.840 --> 01:35:09.199
<v Speaker 2>lasted not longer than about a minute, and then it

1287
01:35:09.319 --> 01:35:13.800
<v Speaker 2>was over. Three of the terrorists were dead, two where

1288
01:35:13.920 --> 01:35:18.760
<v Speaker 2>dead at once, one died on the way to the hospital,

1289
01:35:19.359 --> 01:35:26.479
<v Speaker 2>and one miss Andravis was severely injured but survived.

1290
01:35:27.159 --> 01:35:29.880
<v Speaker 3>And she was the one in that iconic voter.

1291
01:35:29.840 --> 01:35:30.520
<v Speaker 2>Basically the end.

1292
01:35:31.560 --> 01:35:34.279
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, she was the one in that iconic photograph where

1293
01:35:34.279 --> 01:35:36.479
<v Speaker 1>they're taking her off in the stretcher and she's like

1294
01:35:37.199 --> 01:35:38.119
<v Speaker 1>covered in blood and.

1295
01:35:38.039 --> 01:35:44.279
<v Speaker 2>Everything, yeah, and shouting kill me, kill me. Yeah. She was.

1296
01:35:45.760 --> 01:35:48.600
<v Speaker 2>She was actually put on trial back in the nineteen nineties.

1297
01:35:48.720 --> 01:35:52.359
<v Speaker 2>It took that long until there was a trial against her,

1298
01:35:53.279 --> 01:35:59.920
<v Speaker 2>but she was also sentenced in Germany, but she was

1299
01:36:00.079 --> 01:36:05.119
<v Speaker 2>living in Norway I think by the time, and Norway

1300
01:36:05.319 --> 01:36:09.800
<v Speaker 2>would not would not deliver her to the German authorities.

1301
01:36:10.560 --> 01:36:14.399
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, a very weird thing. So she survived, but

1302
01:36:15.119 --> 01:36:18.439
<v Speaker 2>three of them were dead. One was at least one

1303
01:36:18.560 --> 01:36:24.399
<v Speaker 2>was killed by rich Wagner, and it is not known

1304
01:36:24.439 --> 01:36:29.399
<v Speaker 2>who else fired deadly shots against one of the terrorists.

1305
01:36:29.840 --> 01:36:34.159
<v Speaker 2>So the hostages were evacuated. One of the terrorists was

1306
01:36:34.199 --> 01:36:39.119
<v Speaker 2>able to throw two hand grenades, one of which exploded

1307
01:36:39.960 --> 01:36:45.880
<v Speaker 2>and injured one of the stewardesses, but the other one

1308
01:36:46.439 --> 01:36:49.960
<v Speaker 2>was just got caught in under the seats and it

1309
01:36:50.079 --> 01:36:52.880
<v Speaker 2>was still the next morning it was only found it

1310
01:36:52.920 --> 01:36:58.319
<v Speaker 2>was still hot, but yeah, it didn't go off, so

1311
01:36:58.600 --> 01:37:02.319
<v Speaker 2>that was luck. And yeah, apart from this injury and

1312
01:37:02.479 --> 01:37:07.239
<v Speaker 2>power a couple of scratches from the evacuation procedure, nobody

1313
01:37:07.319 --> 01:37:11.039
<v Speaker 2>was really hurt. One of the G'SG nine guys was

1314
01:37:11.279 --> 01:37:14.680
<v Speaker 2>very very lucky because when they started, when they tried

1315
01:37:14.720 --> 01:37:18.239
<v Speaker 2>to open the door in the front on the right side,

1316
01:37:19.039 --> 01:37:21.520
<v Speaker 2>it was blocked, so they just could open it a

1317
01:37:21.560 --> 01:37:25.399
<v Speaker 2>little bit. The specialty with the Boing seven three seven

1318
01:37:25.439 --> 01:37:28.159
<v Speaker 2>doors is you have to first push them in before

1319
01:37:28.159 --> 01:37:31.039
<v Speaker 2>you can open them, so they could push them could

1320
01:37:31.159 --> 01:37:34.039
<v Speaker 2>push the door open a little bit, just a crack,

1321
01:37:34.600 --> 01:37:37.920
<v Speaker 2>and that was when one of the terrorists saw that

1322
01:37:38.079 --> 01:37:42.399
<v Speaker 2>and fired probably blindly shot through this crack and it

1323
01:37:42.479 --> 01:37:45.439
<v Speaker 2>hit one of the GSG nine offices in the neck

1324
01:37:45.840 --> 01:37:50.159
<v Speaker 2>and it went through the whole neck that it didn't

1325
01:37:50.600 --> 01:37:57.399
<v Speaker 2>hit any arteries or it just failed to hit anything

1326
01:37:57.880 --> 01:38:02.640
<v Speaker 2>that was vital. And so with just basically a couple

1327
01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:08.119
<v Speaker 2>of stitches and a neck thing around his neck, he

1328
01:38:08.560 --> 01:38:11.359
<v Speaker 2>survived and he was he was good a couple of

1329
01:38:11.439 --> 01:38:16.319
<v Speaker 2>days later. So that was the only uh, yeah, not casualty,

1330
01:38:16.359 --> 01:38:20.600
<v Speaker 2>but the injury that GG nine guy has suffered. One

1331
01:38:20.640 --> 01:38:24.439
<v Speaker 2>bullet got stuck I think in an armor plate, but

1332
01:38:24.520 --> 01:38:28.960
<v Speaker 2>that was about it. And so eight minutes after the

1333
01:38:28.960 --> 01:38:35.920
<v Speaker 2>beginning of the assault, Ulivigna was able to to finish,

1334
01:38:36.000 --> 01:38:39.760
<v Speaker 2>to end the operation and to give a telephone call

1335
01:38:39.880 --> 01:38:46.239
<v Speaker 2>to Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, who was really really happy that

1336
01:38:46.640 --> 01:38:50.960
<v Speaker 2>this was a happy ending for him. And he's not

1337
01:38:51.319 --> 01:38:55.079
<v Speaker 2>known to be a very sentimental guy, but that was

1338
01:38:55.119 --> 01:38:59.119
<v Speaker 2>the moment when he actually went into the next room

1339
01:38:59.199 --> 01:39:02.720
<v Speaker 2>to to cry. He was really done with his nerves,

1340
01:39:02.920 --> 01:39:07.840
<v Speaker 2>and yeah, that basically saved his chancellorship. He went on

1341
01:39:08.680 --> 01:39:11.720
<v Speaker 2>to be Chancellor of Germany until nineteen eighty two, so

1342
01:39:12.319 --> 01:39:15.439
<v Speaker 2>that was a big relief for everyone, not only for

1343
01:39:15.479 --> 01:39:19.159
<v Speaker 2>the Chancellor but of course for all of Germany, and

1344
01:39:19.439 --> 01:39:23.279
<v Speaker 2>when GSG nine returned to Germany the next day, they

1345
01:39:23.319 --> 01:39:30.119
<v Speaker 2>were welcomed as heroes, which they were, but that was

1346
01:39:30.199 --> 01:39:34.199
<v Speaker 2>really out of the ordinary, one must say, because German

1347
01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:42.119
<v Speaker 2>reverence for heroism was strongly discouraged still to this day,

1348
01:39:42.319 --> 01:39:45.960
<v Speaker 2>so we were not big in that and that was

1349
01:39:46.000 --> 01:39:49.239
<v Speaker 2>one of the very few moments that the national pride

1350
01:39:49.319 --> 01:39:55.640
<v Speaker 2>could really yeah, be taken out and everybody could say, well,

1351
01:39:55.720 --> 01:39:58.479
<v Speaker 2>now today I'm proud to be German because these guys

1352
01:39:58.520 --> 01:39:59.439
<v Speaker 2>really did the job.

1353
01:40:00.960 --> 01:40:05.319
<v Speaker 1>And the sort of epilogue to this story is what

1354
01:40:05.479 --> 01:40:08.319
<v Speaker 1>happened with the RAF prisoners who thought they were going

1355
01:40:08.399 --> 01:40:11.039
<v Speaker 1>to get released and what happened to was it a

1356
01:40:11.279 --> 01:40:14.640
<v Speaker 1>shalor the Employers Association leader.

1357
01:40:16.199 --> 01:40:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is the sad part, because everybody was relieved.

1358
01:40:19.760 --> 01:40:25.119
<v Speaker 2>Everybody was happy that this hostage situation came to a

1359
01:40:25.159 --> 01:40:27.680
<v Speaker 2>happy end, and the next morning the news were full

1360
01:40:27.720 --> 01:40:32.439
<v Speaker 2>of it, of course, and they were extra issues of

1361
01:40:32.520 --> 01:40:35.760
<v Speaker 2>newspapers being printed, and everybody was happy that that was

1362
01:40:35.800 --> 01:40:38.399
<v Speaker 2>the talk of the day, of course, but in the

1363
01:40:38.479 --> 01:40:45.960
<v Speaker 2>afternoon it was clear that this operation had more repercussions,

1364
01:40:46.239 --> 01:40:50.600
<v Speaker 2>and so the news came out that the prisoners of

1365
01:40:50.640 --> 01:40:55.720
<v Speaker 2>the Red Army faction that they had committed suicide in

1366
01:40:55.920 --> 01:41:00.760
<v Speaker 2>their cells. Nobody knows up to this day how they

1367
01:41:00.800 --> 01:41:06.239
<v Speaker 2>got the information really that this operation of GSG nine

1368
01:41:06.399 --> 01:41:08.920
<v Speaker 2>was successful and there was no hope for them to

1369
01:41:09.000 --> 01:41:13.640
<v Speaker 2>be released, but somehow they did it and they were

1370
01:41:13.680 --> 01:41:19.399
<v Speaker 2>able to commit suicide. So that was that. But that

1371
01:41:19.800 --> 01:41:25.760
<v Speaker 2>again meant that the destiny of Hans Martin Schleier was

1372
01:41:25.840 --> 01:41:30.520
<v Speaker 2>also yeah, coming coming to an end. And he was

1373
01:41:30.560 --> 01:41:34.119
<v Speaker 2>found two days later in the trunk of a car

1374
01:41:34.399 --> 01:41:38.560
<v Speaker 2>in close to the border in France, uh and he

1375
01:41:38.680 --> 01:41:43.399
<v Speaker 2>was shot dead because they realized this this game had

1376
01:41:43.600 --> 01:41:46.800
<v Speaker 2>come to an end and they would not get their

1377
01:41:46.880 --> 01:41:50.399
<v Speaker 2>prisoners free. They were dead, so there was no use

1378
01:41:50.479 --> 01:41:54.600
<v Speaker 2>anymore for the for their hostage. So they killed him

1379
01:41:54.720 --> 01:41:57.239
<v Speaker 2>and as I said, put him in a trunk and

1380
01:41:57.720 --> 01:42:01.359
<v Speaker 2>called the local press to tell where to find them.

1381
01:42:03.039 --> 01:42:06.960
<v Speaker 1>One of the other kind of outcomes of this operation

1382
01:42:07.520 --> 01:42:10.319
<v Speaker 1>was you talk a little bit about how it changed

1383
01:42:10.760 --> 01:42:14.680
<v Speaker 1>this sort of hijacking or skyjacking culture, that this was

1384
01:42:14.720 --> 01:42:17.119
<v Speaker 1>the first time it really showed that yes we have

1385
01:42:17.159 --> 01:42:21.520
<v Speaker 1>a countermeasure, yes we can fight back, and aircraft hijackings

1386
01:42:21.640 --> 01:42:24.479
<v Speaker 1>started to drop off quite abruptly.

1387
01:42:26.079 --> 01:42:30.560
<v Speaker 2>That's true, and of course it's the question how much

1388
01:42:30.640 --> 01:42:35.000
<v Speaker 2>of it was contributed by this operation in Mogadishu by

1389
01:42:35.119 --> 01:42:41.880
<v Speaker 2>GSG nine. We can see the security measures in airports

1390
01:42:42.159 --> 01:42:47.279
<v Speaker 2>being ramped up at the same time. It starts before

1391
01:42:47.520 --> 01:42:52.199
<v Speaker 2>the Mogadishu incident, but then really picks up afterwards. So

1392
01:42:53.119 --> 01:42:56.159
<v Speaker 2>the question is, of course, you know, how much did

1393
01:42:56.199 --> 01:43:00.800
<v Speaker 2>that contribute to the to the reduced or to the

1394
01:43:00.920 --> 01:43:07.920
<v Speaker 2>lower numbers and receding numbers of skyjacks afterwards. But it's

1395
01:43:07.960 --> 01:43:13.319
<v Speaker 2>pretty clear that this operation in Mgajishu by the GSG

1396
01:43:13.479 --> 01:43:18.640
<v Speaker 2>nine contributed quite a bit because at this point they

1397
01:43:19.520 --> 01:43:25.199
<v Speaker 2>knew terrorists, knew that there was a force that could

1398
01:43:25.399 --> 01:43:28.920
<v Speaker 2>meet them and could just take them take them out.

1399
01:43:29.399 --> 01:43:36.720
<v Speaker 2>And of course other countries saw that this was a success,

1400
01:43:36.880 --> 01:43:39.960
<v Speaker 2>and of course there were with a lot of interest

1401
01:43:40.079 --> 01:43:44.520
<v Speaker 2>afterwards in the G'SG nine as a force and as

1402
01:43:44.600 --> 01:43:48.960
<v Speaker 2>a teacher as an instruction team for the establishment and

1403
01:43:49.000 --> 01:43:52.880
<v Speaker 2>the inception of other special forces in other countries. So

1404
01:43:53.000 --> 01:43:56.840
<v Speaker 2>within a year there were more than sixty requests from

1405
01:43:56.960 --> 01:44:04.479
<v Speaker 2>sixty different countries asking for advice for training for improvement

1406
01:44:04.760 --> 01:44:08.479
<v Speaker 2>of their own forces that were more or less in

1407
01:44:08.520 --> 01:44:11.279
<v Speaker 2>the phase of being established at the time or for

1408
01:44:11.399 --> 01:44:17.079
<v Speaker 2>the new development of their own GSG nine so to speak.

1409
01:44:17.600 --> 01:44:20.880
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, in my book, I call it it was

1410
01:44:20.960 --> 01:44:24.439
<v Speaker 2>kind of an act of a midwifery that GSG did.

1411
01:44:24.640 --> 01:44:30.000
<v Speaker 2>There for quite a lot of different special forces, be

1412
01:44:30.119 --> 01:44:32.600
<v Speaker 2>they military or police in origin.

1413
01:44:34.319 --> 01:44:38.840
<v Speaker 1>And Charlie back With as he was standing up Delta Force,

1414
01:44:38.920 --> 01:44:42.560
<v Speaker 1>came to learn from them, and you wrote that they

1415
01:44:42.560 --> 01:44:44.880
<v Speaker 1>have I guess it makes sense because they're police officers.

1416
01:44:44.880 --> 01:44:47.640
<v Speaker 1>They have a very tight relationship with the FBI has

1417
01:44:47.680 --> 01:44:48.520
<v Speaker 1>toage Rescue Team.

1418
01:44:49.600 --> 01:44:54.359
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that was very early from the inception of GSG nine.

1419
01:44:54.439 --> 01:45:00.239
<v Speaker 2>They tried to established good connections to the f BI

1420
01:45:00.520 --> 01:45:07.600
<v Speaker 2>and the Hostage Rescue Team and have very good relations

1421
01:45:07.720 --> 01:45:11.520
<v Speaker 2>up to this day. Yeah and yeah. Charlie back With

1422
01:45:12.119 --> 01:45:18.640
<v Speaker 2>he came in nineteen seventy seven, couple of weeks after Muggadishu.

1423
01:45:19.039 --> 01:45:23.399
<v Speaker 2>He came to Germany and he wanted to establish what

1424
01:45:23.840 --> 01:45:27.159
<v Speaker 2>was to become Delta Force. Afterwards, he was still in

1425
01:45:27.199 --> 01:45:31.640
<v Speaker 2>the process of getting the go for his force, and

1426
01:45:32.039 --> 01:45:37.479
<v Speaker 2>so he traveled to the UK because he was a

1427
01:45:37.479 --> 01:45:41.479
<v Speaker 2>former associated formerly associated with the SAS, So he came

1428
01:45:41.800 --> 01:45:45.359
<v Speaker 2>to the UK to learn from them, and then he

1429
01:45:45.359 --> 01:45:52.399
<v Speaker 2>heard from he heard of the GSG nine feet in Mugadishu,

1430
01:45:52.560 --> 01:45:55.800
<v Speaker 2>and he came to Germany to learn from the Germans.

1431
01:45:55.880 --> 01:46:00.720
<v Speaker 2>And shortly after that, German officers, one of them being

1432
01:46:01.039 --> 01:46:08.319
<v Speaker 2>DTA Fox, went to Fort Bragg and while yeah, trained,

1433
01:46:08.319 --> 01:46:13.039
<v Speaker 2>were part of the of the selection process for candidates

1434
01:46:13.079 --> 01:46:17.399
<v Speaker 2>for Delta Force, and also brought a couple of quite

1435
01:46:17.880 --> 01:46:23.159
<v Speaker 2>good German weapons with them to see what maybe Delta

1436
01:46:23.199 --> 01:46:24.439
<v Speaker 2>Falls could make use of them.

1437
01:46:24.920 --> 01:46:27.880
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, and later on they went to the Heckeler

1438
01:46:27.920 --> 01:46:32.880
<v Speaker 1>and Cook MP five, So I guess they sold the Yeah,

1439
01:46:32.960 --> 01:46:38.039
<v Speaker 1>sold some guns. So I'd like to There's a couple

1440
01:46:38.000 --> 01:46:40.439
<v Speaker 1>of chapters you mentioned that didn't make it into the

1441
01:46:40.520 --> 01:46:44.039
<v Speaker 1>English version of your book, but I'd love to ask

1442
01:46:44.119 --> 01:46:48.159
<v Speaker 1>you about it in this interview. In nineteen ninety three

1443
01:46:48.560 --> 01:46:52.000
<v Speaker 1>GSG nine and Germany is still dealing with the RAF

1444
01:46:53.039 --> 01:46:55.960
<v Speaker 1>and there was this, you know, you told me a

1445
01:46:56.119 --> 01:46:58.840
<v Speaker 1>sort of a political crisis in nineteen ninety three in

1446
01:46:58.840 --> 01:47:01.000
<v Speaker 1>the aftermath of a shooting. Can you tell us a

1447
01:47:01.039 --> 01:47:01.800
<v Speaker 1>little bit about that?

1448
01:47:03.840 --> 01:47:10.199
<v Speaker 2>Sure? That was yeah, in the in the in the

1449
01:47:10.319 --> 01:47:15.800
<v Speaker 2>years after the German reunification, and so there was this

1450
01:47:15.880 --> 01:47:21.159
<v Speaker 2>little town of bud Klein in eastern Germany and that

1451
01:47:22.000 --> 01:47:26.600
<v Speaker 2>it was the end of a long observation mission that

1452
01:47:27.279 --> 01:47:30.159
<v Speaker 2>GSG nine was not particularly involved, but a lot of

1453
01:47:30.199 --> 01:47:34.479
<v Speaker 2>other crime fighting institutions in Germany, so that was a

1454
01:47:34.479 --> 01:47:39.760
<v Speaker 2>big thing, and they were going after one of the

1455
01:47:39.880 --> 01:47:45.159
<v Speaker 2>two or two of the figureheads of RAF. As we

1456
01:47:45.199 --> 01:47:49.079
<v Speaker 2>have established in nineteen seventy seven, the leading figures of

1457
01:47:49.319 --> 01:47:54.800
<v Speaker 2>RAF committed suicide after Mogadishu, so they are called the

1458
01:47:54.840 --> 01:47:58.319
<v Speaker 2>first generation of RAF. The ones who tried to liberate

1459
01:47:58.359 --> 01:48:02.119
<v Speaker 2>them are called the second generation. And this now was

1460
01:48:02.159 --> 01:48:06.560
<v Speaker 2>the third generation of RAF terrorists that the German state

1461
01:48:06.680 --> 01:48:09.640
<v Speaker 2>was now looking for. So they got ahold of them,

1462
01:48:09.840 --> 01:48:13.960
<v Speaker 2>and they knew that this RAF couple they would be

1463
01:48:14.279 --> 01:48:18.319
<v Speaker 2>in but Kleinen on the central station, well central station

1464
01:48:18.399 --> 01:48:22.119
<v Speaker 2>on the train station of butt Kleinen, very small town

1465
01:48:22.239 --> 01:48:29.920
<v Speaker 2>in eastern Germany, and they wanted to to apprehend them

1466
01:48:29.960 --> 01:48:34.359
<v Speaker 2>there and make sure they get incarcerated, so they called

1467
01:48:34.439 --> 01:48:40.520
<v Speaker 2>in GSG nine. This whole thing went sideways because of

1468
01:48:41.119 --> 01:48:44.479
<v Speaker 2>a lot of different a lot of details that I

1469
01:48:44.479 --> 01:48:46.880
<v Speaker 2>can't go into right now, that's a little bit too

1470
01:48:46.920 --> 01:48:51.920
<v Speaker 2>complicated for such a podcast like this. The whole operation

1471
01:48:52.359 --> 01:48:57.640
<v Speaker 2>went sideways, and in the end, one of the terrorists

1472
01:48:57.840 --> 01:49:05.439
<v Speaker 2>was apprehended and the other one made an escape, went

1473
01:49:05.560 --> 01:49:10.439
<v Speaker 2>up from the underpass where they were supposed to be

1474
01:49:10.520 --> 01:49:14.239
<v Speaker 2>apprehended and he could escape, ran up the stairs to

1475
01:49:14.640 --> 01:49:19.920
<v Speaker 2>the platforms and started shooting while running, turning around shooting,

1476
01:49:20.079 --> 01:49:25.399
<v Speaker 2>and he shot the first GSG nine operative that was

1477
01:49:25.640 --> 01:49:30.319
<v Speaker 2>following him, and that was Michel Nefzella and he was

1478
01:49:30.439 --> 01:49:33.319
<v Speaker 2>killed on that day. So that was a lucky shot

1479
01:49:33.479 --> 01:49:38.359
<v Speaker 2>and he was hit in the heart and he died

1480
01:49:38.680 --> 01:49:42.279
<v Speaker 2>a couple of hours later. And so there was a

1481
01:49:42.319 --> 01:49:46.079
<v Speaker 2>wild shooting. There were like some like something like one

1482
01:49:46.159 --> 01:49:49.119
<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty shots being fired. You must imagine on

1483
01:49:49.159 --> 01:49:53.840
<v Speaker 2>a Sunday with full platforms, you know, people roaming everywhere.

1484
01:49:54.000 --> 01:49:57.960
<v Speaker 2>A lot of bullets ended up in trains, so there

1485
01:49:58.079 --> 01:50:03.520
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of chaos, a lot of a lot

1486
01:50:03.520 --> 01:50:06.680
<v Speaker 2>of things happened all at once within a couple of seconds,

1487
01:50:06.880 --> 01:50:10.760
<v Speaker 2>and the result was that this terrorist wolf gun coms.

1488
01:50:11.439 --> 01:50:14.399
<v Speaker 2>He was lying with his back on the tracks and

1489
01:50:15.279 --> 01:50:18.840
<v Speaker 2>he was hit by several bullets and one was shot

1490
01:50:18.880 --> 01:50:24.760
<v Speaker 2>to his head, and it soon turned out that he

1491
01:50:24.960 --> 01:50:28.199
<v Speaker 2>had that the bullet that went through his head was

1492
01:50:28.279 --> 01:50:32.840
<v Speaker 2>coming from his own gun. So he killed himself. But

1493
01:50:33.119 --> 01:50:36.239
<v Speaker 2>there were a lot of inconsistencies and a lot of

1494
01:50:36.960 --> 01:50:40.880
<v Speaker 2>in the aftermathth mouth of this whole thing, there was

1495
01:50:41.399 --> 01:50:44.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of discussion that would soon come up, a

1496
01:50:45.039 --> 01:50:48.159
<v Speaker 2>lot of mistakes that were taking place with the CSI

1497
01:50:48.680 --> 01:50:52.479
<v Speaker 2>operation in the aftermath cleaning the whole thing up. There

1498
01:50:52.520 --> 01:50:57.760
<v Speaker 2>were jackets being cleaned that should shouldn't have been cleaned

1499
01:50:57.800 --> 01:51:00.680
<v Speaker 2>because they had to serve, you know, the the jacket

1500
01:51:00.720 --> 01:51:06.760
<v Speaker 2>of Wolfgangrams And there were like traces on his hands

1501
01:51:06.840 --> 01:51:11.319
<v Speaker 2>that had been wiped off, and a lot of things

1502
01:51:11.520 --> 01:51:18.560
<v Speaker 2>happened which should not happened in the in the aftermath

1503
01:51:18.800 --> 01:51:23.880
<v Speaker 2>of such an operation, particularly when two people die. So

1504
01:51:24.680 --> 01:51:28.439
<v Speaker 2>that was all a pretty big disaster. And soon GSG

1505
01:51:28.760 --> 01:51:32.560
<v Speaker 2>nine came into the suspicion that it was not Wolfgun

1506
01:51:32.640 --> 01:51:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Grams who had committed suicide with his last breath, but

1507
01:51:37.479 --> 01:51:41.600
<v Speaker 2>that one GSG nine operative had taken his gun from

1508
01:51:41.840 --> 01:51:46.319
<v Speaker 2>his hands and had shot him from short distance, so

1509
01:51:48.680 --> 01:51:52.800
<v Speaker 2>execution by the States, and this caused a huge uproar

1510
01:51:53.039 --> 01:51:57.640
<v Speaker 2>and a big, big scandal. All of this evaporated, All

1511
01:51:57.680 --> 01:52:02.039
<v Speaker 2>of this didn't turn out to be true. The GSG

1512
01:52:02.199 --> 01:52:06.880
<v Speaker 2>nine was completely washed off every accusation in the end,

1513
01:52:07.039 --> 01:52:10.720
<v Speaker 2>but only after more than a year. So in the meantime,

1514
01:52:10.880 --> 01:52:15.319
<v Speaker 2>there was a huge political scandal that developed, particularly in

1515
01:52:17.079 --> 01:52:21.079
<v Speaker 2>a situation in Germany and with our historical background, and

1516
01:52:21.880 --> 01:52:26.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, the idea we don't have the capital punishment.

1517
01:52:27.399 --> 01:52:32.039
<v Speaker 2>We you know, it's somebody dying and the suspicion of

1518
01:52:32.079 --> 01:52:37.079
<v Speaker 2>somebody dying by the hand, not in an by the

1519
01:52:37.079 --> 01:52:41.079
<v Speaker 2>hand of a state actor, not in an emergency, but

1520
01:52:41.319 --> 01:52:46.039
<v Speaker 2>after the situation is clear, he is clearly lying on

1521
01:52:46.079 --> 01:52:51.199
<v Speaker 2>the tracks, he's has no possibility to defend himself, and

1522
01:52:51.239 --> 01:52:54.880
<v Speaker 2>then being executed like that, that was a big uproar.

1523
01:52:54.920 --> 01:52:57.760
<v Speaker 2>The suspicion of that was a big, big uproar, and

1524
01:52:57.800 --> 01:53:00.920
<v Speaker 2>that led to the resignation of the Minutes of the Interior.

1525
01:53:01.319 --> 01:53:05.239
<v Speaker 2>It led to the firing of the Attorney General in Germany.

1526
01:53:05.439 --> 01:53:09.199
<v Speaker 2>It led to the firing of the vice president of

1527
01:53:09.239 --> 01:53:16.479
<v Speaker 2>the Bundesqueminalam, the federal Crime Investigation Institution in Germany. So

1528
01:53:17.920 --> 01:53:21.439
<v Speaker 2>you know that it was really an uproar, and it

1529
01:53:21.479 --> 01:53:25.199
<v Speaker 2>was a state crisis, and all connected to the question

1530
01:53:26.399 --> 01:53:30.319
<v Speaker 2>has gs G nine an operative of GSG nine WillFull

1531
01:53:30.840 --> 01:53:40.760
<v Speaker 2>willfullingly and intentionally executed human being, be he terrorist or whatever.

1532
01:53:41.319 --> 01:53:45.119
<v Speaker 2>You know, After the situation is done. That is not

1533
01:53:45.319 --> 01:53:48.279
<v Speaker 2>something that should happen. So there was a big debate

1534
01:53:48.399 --> 01:53:52.079
<v Speaker 2>and it took a very very long time. And yeah,

1535
01:53:52.520 --> 01:53:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Germany G's G nine really came into a very very

1536
01:53:58.239 --> 01:54:02.800
<v Speaker 2>bad situation where even the the end of GG nine

1537
01:54:02.880 --> 01:54:06.279
<v Speaker 2>was being discussed shortly. But that was one of the topics.

1538
01:54:06.920 --> 01:54:12.279
<v Speaker 1>And how did the Red Army faction eventually collapse? Like

1539
01:54:12.359 --> 01:54:16.319
<v Speaker 1>how did that organizations get dismantled?

1540
01:54:19.199 --> 01:54:24.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, I it's I can tell you what actually happened.

1541
01:54:24.439 --> 01:54:27.640
<v Speaker 2>Why it happened is a little bit difficult, and I'm

1542
01:54:27.760 --> 01:54:29.680
<v Speaker 2>not sure if anybody has a good answer to that.

1543
01:54:30.560 --> 01:54:37.119
<v Speaker 2>They became irrelevant. Basically this this after the death of

1544
01:54:37.479 --> 01:54:43.520
<v Speaker 2>one of their head figures, volgan Ms. They didn't really

1545
01:54:46.720 --> 01:54:50.479
<v Speaker 2>commit any any major acts. There was a bombing attack

1546
01:54:50.960 --> 01:54:55.880
<v Speaker 2>against a newly built prison, but that was you know,

1547
01:54:55.920 --> 01:54:59.159
<v Speaker 2>nobody was hurt. It was just the prison wall that

1548
01:54:59.359 --> 01:55:02.479
<v Speaker 2>was a big holding, and that was it. And then

1549
01:55:02.600 --> 01:55:08.359
<v Speaker 2>by nineteen ninety eight they declared their self dissolution. Can

1550
01:55:08.399 --> 01:55:12.199
<v Speaker 2>you say that, I'm not sure. They just wrote one

1551
01:55:12.239 --> 01:55:18.000
<v Speaker 2>of their very famous infamous letters and with a lot

1552
01:55:18.079 --> 01:55:26.960
<v Speaker 2>of left wing anti imperialist rhetoric, pages over pages where

1553
01:55:27.520 --> 01:55:30.560
<v Speaker 2>they didn't declare that anything, that they're sorry for anything.

1554
01:55:30.880 --> 01:55:34.159
<v Speaker 2>They just declared it doesn't make sense to go on

1555
01:55:34.359 --> 01:55:41.960
<v Speaker 2>with armed action with terrorist attacks. Of course they for them,

1556
01:55:42.039 --> 01:55:44.239
<v Speaker 2>it was not terrorist attacks. For them, it was just

1557
01:55:44.319 --> 01:55:48.399
<v Speaker 2>a fight against imperialism. But they said it doesn't make

1558
01:55:48.520 --> 01:55:51.640
<v Speaker 2>any sense anymore, and we tried to find other ways

1559
01:55:51.680 --> 01:55:57.640
<v Speaker 2>to fight against imperialism and the fascists German state. And

1560
01:55:57.720 --> 01:56:01.760
<v Speaker 2>that was that and then never heard from them from

1561
01:56:01.800 --> 01:56:06.800
<v Speaker 2>them again apart from a couple of old r AF

1562
01:56:07.479 --> 01:56:11.960
<v Speaker 2>members who then started their private career with bank robberies

1563
01:56:12.000 --> 01:56:15.079
<v Speaker 2>and other stuff. But I was just, you know, more

1564
01:56:15.159 --> 01:56:18.720
<v Speaker 2>or less just criminals. And this story is going on

1565
01:56:18.920 --> 01:56:22.840
<v Speaker 2>up to today. But the RAF, the Red Army faction

1566
01:56:22.960 --> 01:56:27.319
<v Speaker 2>as a terrorist group has been ended in nineteen ninety

1567
01:56:27.399 --> 01:56:30.800
<v Speaker 2>eight with this letter of resignation, so to speak.

1568
01:56:32.560 --> 01:56:35.800
<v Speaker 1>So let's talk a little bit about GSG nine today.

1569
01:56:36.000 --> 01:56:38.760
<v Speaker 1>You're the opportunity to go and visit them at their

1570
01:56:39.359 --> 01:56:42.439
<v Speaker 1>home base and to interview the commander. Actually it seemed

1571
01:56:42.439 --> 01:56:45.520
<v Speaker 1>like maybe two commanders you got to interview, can tell

1572
01:56:45.560 --> 01:56:47.840
<v Speaker 1>us a little bit about, you know, what the unit

1573
01:56:47.920 --> 01:56:49.479
<v Speaker 1>is like today and what they do.

1574
01:56:51.600 --> 01:56:55.079
<v Speaker 2>Sure, yeah, I actually got to talk to four commanders,

1575
01:56:55.720 --> 01:57:01.159
<v Speaker 2>So the current one Robert Hamelin, which I actually will

1576
01:57:01.479 --> 01:57:05.000
<v Speaker 2>visit tomorrow and talk to him. I will present one

1577
01:57:05.039 --> 01:57:09.800
<v Speaker 2>of my books to him. And so his predecessor was

1578
01:57:10.039 --> 01:57:14.119
<v Speaker 2>Jerome Fouks up to twenty twenty three, he was the

1579
01:57:14.319 --> 01:57:18.000
<v Speaker 2>commander of g's G nine. I talked to his predecessor,

1580
01:57:18.279 --> 01:57:22.600
<v Speaker 2>the predecessor all of Lindna, who is now the president

1581
01:57:22.840 --> 01:57:27.439
<v Speaker 2>of the parent organization of g's G nine, the police

1582
01:57:27.479 --> 01:57:32.640
<v Speaker 2>IIE directs on eleven in Berlin, and I talked to

1583
01:57:34.319 --> 01:57:39.159
<v Speaker 2>one more commander who was commanding g's G nine in

1584
01:57:39.199 --> 01:57:42.600
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen nineties. So yeah, I had the opportunity to

1585
01:57:42.640 --> 01:57:45.119
<v Speaker 2>meet the guys. Also you know the rank and file

1586
01:57:45.239 --> 01:57:50.000
<v Speaker 2>of them, and so it's very interesting there. They're still

1587
01:57:50.119 --> 01:57:53.840
<v Speaker 2>their headquarters. It's still in Zankt Augustine. Augustine is a

1588
01:57:53.960 --> 01:57:57.800
<v Speaker 2>very small town close to Bonn and Bond was the

1589
01:57:57.840 --> 01:58:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Cold War capital of West Germany. So that's how they

1590
01:58:02.920 --> 01:58:09.319
<v Speaker 2>were placed there in a border guard garrison that was

1591
01:58:09.479 --> 01:58:12.239
<v Speaker 2>just came in handy when they were established. They wanted

1592
01:58:12.279 --> 01:58:15.359
<v Speaker 2>to be close to Bond and that was the right

1593
01:58:15.399 --> 01:58:19.520
<v Speaker 2>place to go, and so they have remained there for

1594
01:58:19.560 --> 01:58:23.880
<v Speaker 2>the last fifty years. But of course, after the reunification

1595
01:58:23.960 --> 01:58:29.000
<v Speaker 2>of Berlin, the capital moved from Bond to Berlin, and

1596
01:58:29.079 --> 01:58:32.640
<v Speaker 2>now the action is there. And while in Germany things

1597
01:58:32.720 --> 01:58:37.760
<v Speaker 2>take things take a while sometimes, so the capitol moved

1598
01:58:37.760 --> 01:58:41.520
<v Speaker 2>there in mid of the nineties, and some five six

1599
01:58:41.640 --> 01:58:46.279
<v Speaker 2>years ago there was a dependency. A branch was opened

1600
01:58:46.359 --> 01:58:49.760
<v Speaker 2>up in Berlin of G'SJ nine, so they spread out

1601
01:58:49.840 --> 01:58:56.520
<v Speaker 2>to there. Now g'z G nine is facing new challenges,

1602
01:58:56.840 --> 01:59:00.359
<v Speaker 2>or if the whole of Germany and whole of Europe

1603
01:59:00.399 --> 01:59:03.079
<v Speaker 2>is facing new challenges, and that is to do with

1604
01:59:03.279 --> 01:59:06.680
<v Speaker 2>the war in Ukraine and the Russian threat. So the

1605
01:59:06.720 --> 01:59:12.560
<v Speaker 2>Baltic Sea comes into focus. And just this year they

1606
01:59:12.960 --> 01:59:17.399
<v Speaker 2>have opened up another branch right on the coast of

1607
01:59:17.439 --> 01:59:21.159
<v Speaker 2>the Baltic Sea, so their maritime unit that they always

1608
01:59:21.199 --> 01:59:26.479
<v Speaker 2>had is now permanently situated there. So they have now

1609
01:59:26.560 --> 01:59:29.399
<v Speaker 2>spread from San Augustine here in the middle of Germany

1610
01:59:29.640 --> 01:59:34.359
<v Speaker 2>or West Germany, to the north and to Berlin and

1611
01:59:35.640 --> 01:59:40.640
<v Speaker 2>have spread out to engage with the threats that are

1612
01:59:41.039 --> 01:59:47.600
<v Speaker 2>now occurring there, particularly on the Baltic Sea. That this

1613
01:59:47.680 --> 01:59:51.279
<v Speaker 2>is something that really comes into focus in recent years,

1614
01:59:51.319 --> 01:59:55.159
<v Speaker 2>and that is something that will probably be main focus

1615
01:59:55.680 --> 02:00:01.800
<v Speaker 2>in the next years of GESG nine's situation here.

1616
02:00:03.960 --> 02:00:07.560
<v Speaker 1>I there's I always want to ask you if there's

1617
02:00:07.600 --> 02:00:09.880
<v Speaker 1>anything else you want to talk about before we wrap

1618
02:00:10.000 --> 02:00:13.319
<v Speaker 1>up the interview today, Martin. There's lots of interesting stuff.

1619
02:00:13.359 --> 02:00:15.000
<v Speaker 1>I hope people will go and read the book. There's

1620
02:00:15.039 --> 02:00:18.920
<v Speaker 1>a chapter in here about East Germany's version of GSG

1621
02:00:19.079 --> 02:00:20.720
<v Speaker 1>nine which is pretty interesting.

1622
02:00:22.079 --> 02:00:23.840
<v Speaker 3>Anything else you want to talk about?

1623
02:00:26.359 --> 02:00:26.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

1624
02:00:27.199 --> 02:00:27.319
<v Speaker 5>There.

1625
02:00:27.439 --> 02:00:30.279
<v Speaker 2>So, as we said, there's there are so many things.

1626
02:00:30.800 --> 02:00:36.079
<v Speaker 2>I mean, one thing that we haven't talked about, talked

1627
02:00:36.119 --> 02:00:39.319
<v Speaker 2>about really in detail and a little bit maybe, is

1628
02:00:39.359 --> 02:00:43.119
<v Speaker 2>that g G nine is a police force, and that

1629
02:00:43.279 --> 02:00:48.880
<v Speaker 2>is something that is really what fascinates me with GSG

1630
02:00:49.079 --> 02:00:53.199
<v Speaker 2>nine because you know, what we have as a police

1631
02:00:53.199 --> 02:00:58.239
<v Speaker 2>force were GG nine is much more limited to the

1632
02:00:59.479 --> 02:01:03.720
<v Speaker 2>to the rules and the laws that are being set

1633
02:01:03.760 --> 02:01:08.720
<v Speaker 2>by the constitution, and the German Constitution is very strict

1634
02:01:08.760 --> 02:01:11.880
<v Speaker 2>indeed in terms of what you can do and what

1635
02:01:12.600 --> 02:01:16.079
<v Speaker 2>you cannot do. So what I find very fascinating is

1636
02:01:16.159 --> 02:01:20.039
<v Speaker 2>how they are able to on the one hand, do

1637
02:01:20.199 --> 02:01:23.319
<v Speaker 2>the job get the job done that they need to do.

1638
02:01:23.439 --> 02:01:27.600
<v Speaker 2>They need to be tough and have to be able

1639
02:01:27.720 --> 02:01:31.960
<v Speaker 2>to also apply lethal force. But on the other hand,

1640
02:01:32.000 --> 02:01:36.359
<v Speaker 2>there are restricted and limited by the German Constitution. And

1641
02:01:36.960 --> 02:01:41.760
<v Speaker 2>so if this goes back again to the German history,

1642
02:01:41.840 --> 02:01:47.560
<v Speaker 2>and we are very cautious to allow lethal force being

1643
02:01:47.600 --> 02:01:50.840
<v Speaker 2>applied in whichever situation there might be. So they are

1644
02:01:50.960 --> 02:01:58.920
<v Speaker 2>very limited options when it's actually justified to apply lethal force.

1645
02:01:59.119 --> 02:02:06.079
<v Speaker 2>And what I find fascinating is how GSG nine has

1646
02:02:06.199 --> 02:02:11.319
<v Speaker 2>managed to bring these two sides together, the being limited

1647
02:02:11.399 --> 02:02:14.279
<v Speaker 2>on the one hand, but then making the best of

1648
02:02:14.359 --> 02:02:21.359
<v Speaker 2>this limitation and and and trying to to act always

1649
02:02:21.560 --> 02:02:26.880
<v Speaker 2>in accordance with the constitution. And that leads to a

1650
02:02:26.920 --> 02:02:32.359
<v Speaker 2>different mindset than special forces in the military might have.

1651
02:02:33.159 --> 02:02:37.159
<v Speaker 2>The mindset is not while we go in and liberate

1652
02:02:37.439 --> 02:02:42.560
<v Speaker 2>the hostages, that too, of course, but we save life.

1653
02:02:43.880 --> 02:02:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Our upper and foremost interest and objective is to save lives,

1654
02:02:50.439 --> 02:02:53.560
<v Speaker 2>even the ones of the terrorists. If the if I

1655
02:02:53.600 --> 02:02:56.479
<v Speaker 2>don't have another option, this this is what the GSG

1656
02:02:56.600 --> 02:02:59.880
<v Speaker 2>nine guys tell me. You know, I can only go

1657
02:03:00.039 --> 02:03:02.239
<v Speaker 2>by what day tell me. But this is very consistent.

1658
02:03:02.960 --> 02:03:06.199
<v Speaker 2>Be it the old veterans or be the ones the

1659
02:03:06.239 --> 02:03:11.760
<v Speaker 2>operatives that are with GG nine today, they very consistently say,

1660
02:03:13.079 --> 02:03:16.880
<v Speaker 2>we have to try to save lives, not because we

1661
02:03:16.960 --> 02:03:20.439
<v Speaker 2>have pity with the terrorists, or because of some sentiment,

1662
02:03:21.520 --> 02:03:23.960
<v Speaker 2>but because we need him for the trial, we need

1663
02:03:24.000 --> 02:03:29.000
<v Speaker 2>to bring him to court, and so that again then

1664
02:03:29.399 --> 02:03:34.159
<v Speaker 2>there is a different mindset which results in different tactics,

1665
02:03:35.079 --> 02:03:40.680
<v Speaker 2>and I find fascinating that this actually works. So their

1666
02:03:40.720 --> 02:03:44.680
<v Speaker 2>whole mindset is we try to avoid using lethal force.

1667
02:03:44.880 --> 02:03:49.960
<v Speaker 2>We try to avoid using our guns. Every operation, be

1668
02:03:50.640 --> 02:03:55.199
<v Speaker 2>just an exercise or an actual operation. If we find

1669
02:03:55.239 --> 02:03:59.840
<v Speaker 2>ourselves in a situation where we have to use our guns,

1670
02:04:00.119 --> 02:04:03.800
<v Speaker 2>if we have to shoot, then afterwards in the debriefing

1671
02:04:03.880 --> 02:04:07.520
<v Speaker 2>we will discuss very intensely what could it we have

1672
02:04:07.680 --> 02:04:12.079
<v Speaker 2>done in order to avoid it. We don't see having

1673
02:04:12.119 --> 02:04:19.920
<v Speaker 2>to use our weaponry a firearms is not a failure,

1674
02:04:20.479 --> 02:04:23.359
<v Speaker 2>but it is something that we need to work on

1675
02:04:23.600 --> 02:04:26.520
<v Speaker 2>so we can avoid it the next time. I find

1676
02:04:26.520 --> 02:04:32.199
<v Speaker 2>that very fascinating because of course this puts you in

1677
02:04:32.479 --> 02:04:34.760
<v Speaker 2>even greater danger if you go in and try to

1678
02:04:34.800 --> 02:04:42.760
<v Speaker 2>liberate a hostage and you have to make this decision

1679
02:04:43.640 --> 02:04:48.199
<v Speaker 2>in this you know microsecond that it is where do

1680
02:04:48.239 --> 02:04:52.680
<v Speaker 2>we put place the bullets? When you talk or yeah,

1681
02:04:52.720 --> 02:04:56.000
<v Speaker 2>when you talk to special forces people of on the

1682
02:04:56.039 --> 02:05:01.399
<v Speaker 2>military side, I hear and I read that it's very

1683
02:05:01.439 --> 02:05:04.239
<v Speaker 2>common to say, okay, we put two bullets in each

1684
02:05:04.319 --> 02:05:08.279
<v Speaker 2>terrorist just to make sure that he will not be

1685
02:05:09.079 --> 02:05:12.960
<v Speaker 2>a problem afterwards. You know, in whatever respect, particularly when

1686
02:05:12.960 --> 02:05:15.199
<v Speaker 2>you do room clearing, for example, and you have to

1687
02:05:15.199 --> 02:05:16.840
<v Speaker 2>go in the next room, you don't want to have

1688
02:05:16.920 --> 02:05:20.920
<v Speaker 2>somebody even half that behind you, so you make sure

1689
02:05:21.000 --> 02:05:23.600
<v Speaker 2>that he will not be able to act. That is

1690
02:05:23.640 --> 02:05:28.319
<v Speaker 2>not the mindset that they have. They really go in

1691
02:05:28.399 --> 02:05:34.239
<v Speaker 2>and try to save lives, even the lives of the

1692
02:05:34.279 --> 02:05:38.159
<v Speaker 2>perpetrator of the terrorist. And if I can add a

1693
02:05:38.199 --> 02:05:41.199
<v Speaker 2>little anecdote that I also write about in my book,

1694
02:05:41.279 --> 02:05:45.479
<v Speaker 2>I also talked to Renadi Bornen, who is the medical

1695
02:05:45.600 --> 02:05:52.119
<v Speaker 2>officer for the operational Medicine department of GSG nine, and

1696
02:05:52.239 --> 02:05:56.640
<v Speaker 2>she was called in to a hostage situation here in

1697
02:05:56.720 --> 02:06:00.520
<v Speaker 2>Cologne at the Central station in Cologne a couple of

1698
02:06:00.640 --> 02:06:04.640
<v Speaker 2>years ago. That was not the GSG nine that was

1699
02:06:04.680 --> 02:06:07.880
<v Speaker 2>operating there, but one of the s IT cars the

1700
02:06:07.920 --> 02:06:13.079
<v Speaker 2>special forces of the province here. So it was a

1701
02:06:13.079 --> 02:06:17.520
<v Speaker 2>hostage situation in a pharmacy and a guy took a

1702
02:06:17.600 --> 02:06:20.840
<v Speaker 2>couple of employees hostage, and the whole thing dragged on

1703
02:06:20.920 --> 02:06:23.159
<v Speaker 2>for a couple of hours and they decided, okay, we

1704
02:06:23.279 --> 02:06:27.359
<v Speaker 2>have to go in and solve this problem by with

1705
02:06:27.640 --> 02:06:32.720
<v Speaker 2>violent means. So they did, and Renaldo Bonnen as the

1706
02:06:32.960 --> 02:06:38.199
<v Speaker 2>medical officer. She afterwards she counted eighteen holes in this

1707
02:06:38.359 --> 02:06:42.960
<v Speaker 2>guy's body entry and exit wounds, but all of them

1708
02:06:43.119 --> 02:06:47.079
<v Speaker 2>in the periphery, in the arms, in the legs, nowhere lethal.

1709
02:06:48.279 --> 02:06:51.119
<v Speaker 2>So when she told me, I asked her, well, yeah, well,

1710
02:06:51.199 --> 02:06:56.119
<v Speaker 2>good luck, and she said good work. And that is

1711
02:06:56.159 --> 02:07:03.039
<v Speaker 2>the spirit that these units work, beat the special Units

1712
02:07:03.079 --> 02:07:06.600
<v Speaker 2>of the Lender or the Special Unit GSG, not at

1713
02:07:06.680 --> 02:07:11.479
<v Speaker 2>GSG nine. They don't aim for the kill. They aimed

1714
02:07:11.560 --> 02:07:17.720
<v Speaker 2>for the saving of lives. I find that very very impressive.

1715
02:07:17.920 --> 02:07:20.319
<v Speaker 2>This guy survived. He had eighteen holes in his body

1716
02:07:20.319 --> 02:07:23.840
<v Speaker 2>where they were not supposed to be, but he survived,

1717
02:07:24.079 --> 02:07:28.439
<v Speaker 2>and that I imagine there was also a little bit

1718
02:07:28.439 --> 02:07:31.800
<v Speaker 2>of luck involved in that. But you know, they were

1719
02:07:31.800 --> 02:07:34.479
<v Speaker 2>not aiming for the kill. They were aiming for the

1720
02:07:35.640 --> 02:07:38.840
<v Speaker 2>saving of the hostages and the saving the life of

1721
02:07:38.840 --> 02:07:39.479
<v Speaker 2>the terrorists.

1722
02:07:40.359 --> 02:07:44.239
<v Speaker 1>It's actually, as far as I know, for our police officers,

1723
02:07:44.239 --> 02:07:47.039
<v Speaker 1>it's actually mandatory if they're going to shoot at a criminal,

1724
02:07:47.079 --> 02:07:50.359
<v Speaker 1>they're shooting center mass, no trick shots allowed.

1725
02:07:52.199 --> 02:07:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, and there's this saying among special forces,

1726
02:07:58.880 --> 02:08:02.600
<v Speaker 2>probably not among special forces a man who deserves being shot,

1727
02:08:02.880 --> 02:08:07.840
<v Speaker 2>deserves being killed. And I can understand from a military

1728
02:08:07.840 --> 02:08:10.399
<v Speaker 2>point of view that this makes a lot of sense.

1729
02:08:12.000 --> 02:08:17.159
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, and of course from a normal police officer,

1730
02:08:17.239 --> 02:08:20.880
<v Speaker 2>you will not be able to demand that he will

1731
02:08:21.399 --> 02:08:25.560
<v Speaker 2>he will put a shot in the periphery. You know,

1732
02:08:25.640 --> 02:08:28.439
<v Speaker 2>they just don't have the training. How could they do that.

1733
02:08:28.640 --> 02:08:33.680
<v Speaker 2>So they of course are aiming for the safe shot,

1734
02:08:33.880 --> 02:08:37.640
<v Speaker 2>not safe for the perpetrator, that's safe for stopping him.

1735
02:08:38.159 --> 02:08:41.640
<v Speaker 2>So I can understand that. But these guys are trained

1736
02:08:42.039 --> 02:08:45.199
<v Speaker 2>to a point that they actually can make this decision

1737
02:08:45.520 --> 02:08:53.279
<v Speaker 2>and can judge, for the sake of the of the

1738
02:08:53.319 --> 02:08:58.800
<v Speaker 2>hostage and for the sake hopefully of the perpetrator, whether

1739
02:08:58.880 --> 02:09:04.760
<v Speaker 2>to make a lethal shot, to give fire, a lethal

1740
02:09:04.760 --> 02:09:08.279
<v Speaker 2>shot or a non lethal shot. And again I find

1741
02:09:08.319 --> 02:09:09.680
<v Speaker 2>that quite impressive.

1742
02:09:11.159 --> 02:09:13.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, I hope everyone will go out and read the

1743
02:09:13.680 --> 02:09:17.439
<v Speaker 1>book again. It's called GSG nine From Munich to Mangadissue

1744
02:09:17.479 --> 02:09:21.039
<v Speaker 1>The Birth of Germany's counter Terrorism Force. I really enjoyed it,

1745
02:09:22.159 --> 02:09:24.560
<v Speaker 1>got all my notes and underlines in here as I

1746
02:09:24.600 --> 02:09:29.520
<v Speaker 1>read through it. It was really cool because of Martin's background,

1747
02:09:29.560 --> 02:09:31.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, he was able to get access to all

1748
02:09:31.960 --> 02:09:34.199
<v Speaker 1>of these leaders in the unit and all this source

1749
02:09:34.279 --> 02:09:36.960
<v Speaker 1>material in German, and I think you're really seeing it

1750
02:09:37.000 --> 02:09:39.640
<v Speaker 1>in English for the first time. I suspect in this book,

1751
02:09:40.399 --> 02:09:43.640
<v Speaker 1>which definitely makes it worth going and picking up. The

1752
02:09:43.720 --> 02:09:45.960
<v Speaker 1>people who watch this podcast will want to have this

1753
02:09:46.000 --> 02:09:47.399
<v Speaker 1>one in their library for sure.

1754
02:09:48.399 --> 02:09:48.720
<v Speaker 3>Martin.

1755
02:09:48.720 --> 02:09:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for joining us this afternoon. I imagine this evening

1756
02:09:51.800 --> 02:09:53.960
<v Speaker 1>for you in Germany.

1757
02:09:54.680 --> 02:09:58.119
<v Speaker 2>That's right, Yeah, it's at night right now.

1758
02:09:58.159 --> 02:10:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, we'll let you get to bed. Appreciate you

1759
02:10:01.039 --> 02:10:04.199
<v Speaker 1>coming on the show and doing this interview, and look

1760
02:10:04.279 --> 02:10:07.880
<v Speaker 1>us up anytime you're in the neighborhood or writing another book.

1761
02:10:09.279 --> 02:10:11.399
<v Speaker 2>I will do so. Thank you so much for having me.

1762
02:10:11.479 --> 02:10:12.720
<v Speaker 2>It was great fun talking to you.

1763
02:10:12.720 --> 02:10:15.600
<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much, and everyone else out there, we'll

1764
02:10:15.600 --> 02:10:19.640
<v Speaker 1>see you next time. Hey, guys, I want to tell

1765
02:10:19.680 --> 02:10:22.000
<v Speaker 1>all of you today about a new newsletter that we're

1766
02:10:22.079 --> 02:10:25.680
<v Speaker 1>launching that encompasses both the team House podcast, the eyes

1767
02:10:25.720 --> 02:10:29.760
<v Speaker 1>On podcast, and the high Side News outlet, which I

1768
02:10:29.880 --> 02:10:33.920
<v Speaker 1>run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be

1769
02:10:33.960 --> 02:10:36.199
<v Speaker 1>once a week. It's going to come into your inbox

1770
02:10:36.520 --> 02:10:39.239
<v Speaker 1>and you're going to get the most current podcasts on

1771
02:10:39.600 --> 02:10:43.960
<v Speaker 1>eyes On and the Teamhouse and whatever's topical or current

1772
02:10:44.039 --> 02:10:46.439
<v Speaker 1>on the high side. So it's another way for us

1773
02:10:46.439 --> 02:10:49.119
<v Speaker 1>to get the information out to you as social media

1774
02:10:49.199 --> 02:10:52.159
<v Speaker 1>algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really.

1775
02:10:51.920 --> 02:10:54.000
<v Speaker 3>Know what you're going to get. So this is a

1776
02:10:54.039 --> 02:10:54.920
<v Speaker 3>once a week email.

1777
02:10:55.119 --> 02:10:57.479
<v Speaker 1>It'll slide into your inbox and it will have you

1778
02:10:57.520 --> 02:10:59.039
<v Speaker 1>know the greatest hits of that week.

1779
02:10:59.159 --> 02:11:02.359
<v Speaker 2>It's really good checking it out.

1780
02:11:02.439 --> 02:11:06.720
<v Speaker 1>The website for it is Teamhouse Podcast, dot kit dot com,

1781
02:11:06.720 --> 02:11:11.600
<v Speaker 1>slash Join Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com slash join.

1782
02:11:12.199 --> 02:11:12.319
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

1783
02:11:12.479 --> 02:11:14.600
<v Speaker 1>You go there and you enter into your email list

1784
02:11:14.800 --> 02:11:18.439
<v Speaker 1>or you enter your email into the little thing on

1785
02:11:18.479 --> 02:11:20.960
<v Speaker 1>the website and you're good to go and that'll be it.

1786
02:11:21.640 --> 02:11:24.359
<v Speaker 1>So we really appreciate your support and I hope you'll

1787
02:11:24.359 --> 02:11:25.279
<v Speaker 1>consider signing up.

1788
02:11:25.520 --> 02:11:26.199
<v Speaker 2>Where's the link.

1789
02:11:27.119 --> 02:11:29.640
<v Speaker 3>The link will also be down the description if you're

1790
02:11:29.680 --> 02:11:30.199
<v Speaker 3>looking for it

1791
02:11:30.239 --> 02:11:34.680
<v Speaker 1>There, and that's Teamhouse Podcast, dot Kit, k I t

1792
02:11:35.000 --> 02:11:39.800
<v Speaker 1>Kilo India, Tango dot com backslash Join