Speaker 1: The Team House with your hopes, Jack Murphy and David Park. Hey, folks,
Speaker 1: welcome to episode three hundred and eighty three of The
Speaker 1: Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with today's guest, Martin Hertzock.
Speaker 1: He is the author of GSG nine, From Munich to Mangadishu,
Speaker 1: The Birth of Germans counter Terrorism for US. Martin is
Speaker 1: a author, journalist, academic. I read this book just this week.
Speaker 1: I hope you guys will go and pick it up.
Speaker 1: I thought initially, as I was telling Martin before we
Speaker 1: started the show, I thought I had read all about
Speaker 1: this subject already. But when I picked up this book
Speaker 1: and started reading through it, I realized there's a lot
Speaker 1: I didn't know. And so we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: the Munich massacre, the origin of GSG nine, how that
Speaker 1: came about, and about I guess it really is the
Speaker 1: very first successful aircraft down and is it the first
Speaker 1: one that was ever done successfully in manga issue?
Speaker 2: Hi? Jack, Yeah, thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 2: And yes, I think it is actually the first takedown,
Speaker 2: and to this day, I think arguably the most complex
Speaker 2: that ever happened. So yeah, it was a first for
Speaker 2: everybody involved.
Speaker 3: I guess and it showed the Western world.
Speaker 1: I think that it's possible to fight back against terrorism,
Speaker 1: that they weren't helpless, that there was a way. We'll
Speaker 1: get into the implications of all of it during this show.
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about this. Like I said, there's
Speaker 1: a lot going on actually, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: ancillary things around that hijacking that are connected to it
Speaker 1: that we'll get into. But Martin, if you could first
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your background, what kind
Speaker 1: of like you know, your I know your background is
Speaker 1: is in journalism. How did that kind of take you
Speaker 1: into this subject of, you know, the German military and
Speaker 1: police force in this case.
Speaker 2: Well, I studied philosophy and history and politics here at
Speaker 2: the University of Cologne where I'm based, and I naturally
Speaker 2: am very much interested in the history, and I came
Speaker 2: across GSG nine. I think it was in two thousand
Speaker 2: and seven. That was the year when the Mogadishu, the
Speaker 2: Mugadishu operation was thirty five years and they kind of
Speaker 2: celebrated this anniversary, and of course there was a lot
Speaker 2: of media coverage about that. And so I was working
Speaker 2: for WDR, that's the public broadcaster here and they asked
Speaker 2: me to do tvps and I did a radio piece
Speaker 2: about that, and I came in touch with a couple
Speaker 2: of the veterans who had been founding members of the
Speaker 2: GSG nine in nineteen seventy two, just after the Olympic massacre,
Speaker 2: but who have also participated in the Mugadishue operation. So
Speaker 2: that was when I first got interested in this whole matter.
Speaker 2: And then over the years I went deeper and deeper
Speaker 2: into that matter and did a couple of segments for
Speaker 2: TV radio documentations, And in twenty eighteen, I think it
Speaker 2: was or twenty nineteen, I did a deep dive interview
Speaker 2: with Dieta Fox, who is one of the of those
Speaker 2: who founded the GSG nine and who was also very
Speaker 2: very tightly participating in the Mugadishue operation. And so he
Speaker 2: told me the whole story, which I realized I only
Speaker 2: had covered part of it, and that was mainly the
Speaker 2: days in between the hijacking of this Lufthanza plane. AH
Speaker 2: won the Lansuit, that's the name of the aircraft, and
Speaker 2: it was hijacked on October thirteenth, nineteen seventy seven, and
Speaker 2: it was liberated five days later. And the story what
Speaker 2: happens in between. That was something that fascinated me and
Speaker 2: Dita Fox one was the one guy who accompanied the
Speaker 2: commander of GZG nine, ulrichwgener all these five days when
Speaker 2: it was the abduction of an aircraft, developed into an
Speaker 2: audyssey throughout the Mediterranean, the Middle East, and finally ended
Speaker 2: up in Mgadisho in Africa. So that was very fascinating,
Speaker 2: and I thought, well, this is a story that has
Speaker 2: not been told in any great detail in Germany. Surprisingly
Speaker 2: because I thought, I looked it up and thought there
Speaker 2: must be literature about that, but there wasn't. And so
Speaker 2: I thought, well, this is a story that is much
Speaker 2: more than for a twenty minute radio show, and so
Speaker 2: I started researching the book. I asked Dietter Fox if
Speaker 2: he was happy to support me, and so through him
Speaker 2: and then through GSG nine headquarters here close by and
Speaker 2: they are based not far from Cologne, I was able
Speaker 2: to really dive very deeply into the history, in the
Speaker 2: founding history and the story of the Mugadishu operation and
Speaker 2: finally write a book about that, which was then published
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two. And well, now you have just
Speaker 2: said that you read this week the English version of
Speaker 2: this these first five years of GSG nine from nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy to nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 1: And this book is available now through Casemate. People can
Speaker 1: go and find.
Speaker 2: It, Yes, that's the case. You can buy it online,
Speaker 2: I think in all the big online departments you can
Speaker 2: find it, and also in good bookstores everywhere in the
Speaker 2: US and in the UK as well. It's a little
Speaker 2: bit hard to get your fingers on it when you're
Speaker 2: in Germany, but people living here probably will refer to
Speaker 2: the or where we'll rather go for the German version
Speaker 2: of the book, I imagine.
Speaker 1: So let's go back in time to nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 1: We have to imagine for our younger audience, this is
Speaker 1: before the War on Terror, before nine to eleven. This
Speaker 1: is a time in the seventies where terrorism is sort
Speaker 1: of a newish thing. International terrorism and taking of hostages
Speaker 1: and hijackings is something that's becoming a weekli or monthly occurrence.
Speaker 1: And then one of the big catalyzing events of terrorism
Speaker 1: that happened at that time was what later became known
Speaker 1: as the Munich massacre. Most of our viewers are probably
Speaker 1: familiar with that event through the Steven Spielberg film but
Speaker 1: I'd like to hear your description of that event, what
Speaker 1: happened and what went wrong, and what were some of
Speaker 1: the lessons learned out of it.
Speaker 2: So the Olympic Games in Munich were in nineteen seventy two,
Speaker 2: were the first after the nineteen thirty six Olympic Games
Speaker 2: in Nazi Germany, and they were very monumental and very well,
Speaker 2: you could say, rather grim Olympic Games. So that was
Speaker 2: all for the purpose of the propaganda of the Nazi regime.
Speaker 2: And this time around Germany wanted to do it differently.
Speaker 2: They wanted to create happy games. They wanted to create
Speaker 2: jolly games. That was the expression Hi tier Spieler, jolly games.
Speaker 2: So they wanted to present you know, it was shortly
Speaker 2: after the invention of the color div so it was
Speaker 2: very colorful. They wanted to create a very very nice
Speaker 2: environment welcoming the international community. They wanted to present Germany
Speaker 2: as a modern, open, liberal state to the world stage.
Speaker 2: So they planned for everything, and they had a very
Speaker 2: very nice Olympic stadium. I can strongly recommend whenever you're
Speaker 2: in Munich visit it. The Olympic Stadium is still magnificent.
Speaker 2: It's very very beautiful and so everything was planned for
Speaker 2: but for the but not for the security measures. Barely
Speaker 2: any existed. There was maybe or not maybe there was
Speaker 2: a fence, a two meter fence around the Olympic village
Speaker 2: and that was about it. There were no further measures.
Speaker 2: There were no contingency plans for any criminal or let
Speaker 2: alone terrorist activities. There were no plans for Rice's staff
Speaker 2: should something happened, nothing whatsoever, and so but nobody thought,
Speaker 2: I mean, you mentioned it. It was a time of
Speaker 2: rising terrorist activities, skyjacking of airplanes and the German home
Speaker 2: made terrorism of the Red Army faction. We probably talk
Speaker 2: about that a little bit later on.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 2: Rampant, but nobody expected for anything to happen on such
Speaker 2: an event because it was a happy sports event. What
Speaker 2: should happen there, so nobody cared for it. So and
Speaker 2: the first two weeks went fine. The weather was great,
Speaker 2: the games were on and everybody was happy. It was
Speaker 2: the first live event that was really televised around the
Speaker 2: globe twenty four seven. And then on September fifth, in
Speaker 2: the night of September fifth, Palestinian commando entered the Olympic village,
Speaker 2: went to the to the location of the Israeli delegation,
Speaker 2: and they took the Israeli delegation hostage, killed two of
Speaker 2: them right away, and they demanded they took them hostage
Speaker 2: and demanded the liberation of some two hundred and thirty
Speaker 2: I think it was Palestinian fighters from Israeli prisons for
Speaker 2: a couple from Turkish prisons and German RAF terrorists from
Speaker 2: German prisons. So that were their demands. And over the day,
Speaker 2: I mean, nobody, as I said, nobody really thought that
Speaker 2: something like that could happen. So haphazardly, they established a
Speaker 2: crisis staff with police forces and ministers and the mayor
Speaker 2: of Munich and the mayor of the Olympic village, and
Speaker 2: they tried to gather police forces and tried to do
Speaker 2: well something because nothing was planned. It was all very
Speaker 2: they were, you know, in over their heads. Nothing really
Speaker 2: worked out, and they tried in the afternoon, they tried
Speaker 2: an assault, but that was you know, as I said,
Speaker 2: it was televised live all over the world, so on
Speaker 2: every TV set you could see what was happening there,
Speaker 2: and nobody bothered to shoosh away the journalists and the
Speaker 2: TV camera, so everything was really broadcast live worldwide. So
Speaker 2: when they tried to sneak up on this on the
Speaker 2: delegates on the delegation's house, the Israeli delegations house, they
Speaker 2: could inside the house. They were TV sets in every
Speaker 2: delegation there were TV sets, so they could watch the
Speaker 2: sneaking up of the policemen who tried to yeah, go there.
Speaker 2: They were addressed in World War two helmets and had
Speaker 2: old guns that were also probably from the Second World War,
Speaker 2: and they didn't know how to approach. They didn't know anything.
Speaker 2: And while the orders are not really known what they
Speaker 2: actually said, but it was something along the line we'll
Speaker 2: get in there and then see what you can do.
Speaker 2: That was basically there. There's strategy. That was all the
Speaker 2: orders that were given to them. So within minutes this
Speaker 2: all fell apart and the terrorists said, well, don't don't
Speaker 2: even think about it. And so this this didn't take
Speaker 2: take long for them to detect and to well ended basically.
Speaker 2: And so the problem was that the Israeli government said,
Speaker 2: well you to the to the German government, of course
Speaker 2: they were called consultations between the German and the Israeli government,
Speaker 2: and the Israeli government said, well, do whatever you want,
Speaker 2: but we will not agree to any prisoner exchange, and
Speaker 2: so yeah, the German government was left to their own devices. Additionally,
Speaker 2: there was the problem that the German gaverny government was
Speaker 2: not in power really of the situation because in Germany
Speaker 2: police not unlike in the states, is authority of the states,
Speaker 2: of the of the lender the provinces. So it was
Speaker 2: the Bavarian province that was responsible for the police there
Speaker 2: and all the action there, and the Munich city police.
Speaker 2: So the federal government couldn't do very much really, And
Speaker 2: so there was the Minister of the Interior, Hans Dietrich Genscher,
Speaker 2: who was there and who was there to advise, but
Speaker 2: he didn't have any authority of what should happen or not.
Speaker 2: So this dragged on. There are a lot of more details,
Speaker 2: of very interesting details, but it dragged on for the
Speaker 2: whole day and in the evening. Finally it was agreed
Speaker 2: to fly the terrorists with their hostages to Cairo. That's
Speaker 2: what they told the terrorists. So the idea was to
Speaker 2: fly them with helicopters to the nearby military airport of
Speaker 2: Fustenfeldbrook and from there put them into an aircraft and
Speaker 2: fly them to Cairo. That's what they told them, but
Speaker 2: that was not what the plan was. There were a
Speaker 2: couple of policemen, no special forces. There were no special forces.
Speaker 2: There were just regular police corps. And they were given
Speaker 2: a couple of i think two submachine guns and otherwise
Speaker 2: just like pistols. And they were told, okay, go into
Speaker 2: this aircraft that is parked there, that is ready for
Speaker 2: the for the terrorists, dress up as luft Hanza employees stewarts,
Speaker 2: and when they come in then you, you know, you
Speaker 2: just get control of the situation and seize them or
Speaker 2: kill them. That was the plan these guys when they
Speaker 2: were told that, and there were not even all uniforms
Speaker 2: for them to dress them accordingly, and they would know
Speaker 2: that twelve people Luftanza people in one tiny plane would
Speaker 2: raise suspicion by the terrorists right away. They didn't have
Speaker 2: the right weaponry they did, they were not trained for
Speaker 2: such a situation. So they quickly talked amongst each other
Speaker 2: and decided, no, we will not go on such a
Speaker 2: suicide mission and left the aircraft in Filston Feldbrook just
Speaker 2: at the time when the helicopters with the terrorists were arriving.
Speaker 2: So the helicopters landed, the terrorists got out of the helicopter,
Speaker 2: two of them, the leader and another one, and they
Speaker 2: went into the aircraft and saw that it was empty,
Speaker 2: and they suspected a trap, of course they did. And
Speaker 2: then they came out and signaled as much to the
Speaker 2: other terrorists and that was the moment when the fire
Speaker 2: when the firefight began, because there were like five sharpshooters.
Speaker 2: That's a very well, that's a very big word for
Speaker 2: these guys, because that was just guys with some rifles
Speaker 2: and they were placed around the area where the helicopter
Speaker 2: was sitting, and nobody knew who gave the order because
Speaker 2: there were no radio contact, they didn't have any any
Speaker 2: radio on them. So at some point they just started shooting.
Speaker 2: And this shooting lasted for almost two hours, and the
Speaker 2: final result was that that all that all terrorists safe.
Speaker 2: Three it was all in all there were eight. So
Speaker 2: five terrorists were killed and everybody of the Israeli delegation
Speaker 2: to both helicopters that landed there were blown up with
Speaker 2: everybody inside, and so in total there was one German
Speaker 2: police officer was killed as well, and so all in all,
Speaker 2: finally there were sixteen dead bodies and a police that
Speaker 2: was completely in over their heads who completely that it
Speaker 2: was a complete disaster, complete failure. And this whole scenery
Speaker 2: was witnessed by Hans Dietrich Genscher, the Minister of the Interior.
Speaker 2: He sat there and couldn't do anything, and next to
Speaker 2: him was his liaison officer to the Bundeskranschutz, the border Guards,
Speaker 2: that was Urrichvigna at the time. He also witnessed the
Speaker 2: whole thing, and when it finally was clear that this
Speaker 2: was an absolute and utter disaster, they both came to
Speaker 2: the conclusion that in order to prevent something from happening again,
Speaker 2: something like that from happening again, it needs that there
Speaker 2: need to be some unit that is able to deal
Speaker 2: with such threats and such terrorist attacks. That's when, basically
Speaker 2: that when the idea came up to create CHEESEG nine,
Speaker 2: and within three weeks GSG nine was founded and came
Speaker 2: into existence.
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Speaker 1: And you know GSG nine being you know an acronym,
Speaker 1: you can tell us exactly what it means, but it's
Speaker 1: one of the border patrol unit you know sections or
Speaker 1: I don't want to say platoons, but one of their
Speaker 1: elements was this counter terrorism unit placed within the Border
Speaker 1: Guards because they were the force that had federal authority
Speaker 1: around Federated Germany as opposed to you mentioned earlier, the
Speaker 1: different provinces of Germany each had their own thing going on.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's it was a very complicated situation. And without
Speaker 2: something like the Olympic massacre, the massacre at the Olympic
Speaker 2: Games in Munich, probably GSG nine would never have come
Speaker 2: into existence, because, as you said, bunds grenz Schutz the
Speaker 2: border god is federal and it was at the time
Speaker 2: it was still very paramilitarily organized because they were basically
Speaker 2: a force to protect the border to the to eastern
Speaker 2: Germany UH and the call the the Eastern Bloc. And
Speaker 2: but the Minister for the Interior Againsha wanted to make
Speaker 2: it a real police force and so this was was
Speaker 2: part of it. So it came in very handy that
Speaker 2: they had a paramilitary background on the one hand, but
Speaker 2: that they were a police force and they were federal.
Speaker 2: In normal times, probably he would have had a hard
Speaker 2: time arguing for such a thing with his colleagues on
Speaker 2: the on the province is because they were very very
Speaker 2: suspicious and they were very very keen on keeping their
Speaker 2: authority in terms of police and security. And that was
Speaker 2: you know, that was a result of the Second World War.
Speaker 2: It you know, the decentralization of Germany give the provinces
Speaker 2: a lot of power in terms of culture of education,
Speaker 2: but also more importantly in terms of security in police forces.
Speaker 2: So they wanted to federalize that in order to have
Speaker 2: not such a centralized force. And so they were also
Speaker 2: the German ministers of the interior of the province provinces.
Speaker 2: They were really keen on keeping this authority and not
Speaker 2: handing over too much of that power to the federal state.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that was the reason why why the bunes
Speaker 2: gran Schutz the BIGS the Border Patrol was chosen to
Speaker 2: house such a unit. They had helicopters, they had what
Speaker 2: they thought was all the equipment that they would ever need.
Speaker 2: Turned out they didn't. They needed different staff, completely different equipment,
Speaker 2: different weaponry. But that at the time they thought was
Speaker 2: ideal to yeah, to bring a special unit and and
Speaker 2: to to create a special unit like the GSG nine
Speaker 2: and for the name just quickly they were up to
Speaker 2: this time there were seven Grands Shoots Grouppen g s
Speaker 2: G Grant Grouper one to seven and that wouldn't would
Speaker 2: There was a so that means Border Patrol Group and
Speaker 2: there was a helicopter unit that was the eighth and
Speaker 2: then came GSG nine as a very small unit, but
Speaker 2: they had regimental status which gave them access directly to
Speaker 2: the Minister of the Interior, so they didn't have to
Speaker 2: they were not a subgroup within one of the existing groups,
Speaker 2: and so Vigner, who was the lidaison officer for the
Speaker 2: big for the Border Patrol to Minister against he had
Speaker 2: a direct line and kept it that way by having
Speaker 2: GSG nine being placed in this kind of on the
Speaker 2: same level as the much bigger other groups within the
Speaker 2: Border Patrol.
Speaker 1: And part of that, or a big part of it,
Speaker 1: was because of that personal relationship between those two.
Speaker 2: Yes, he was working for Genscher for the last three years.
Speaker 2: I think nineteen sixty nine was when they met, and
Speaker 2: he was Vigna was very much in high regard with Genscher,
Speaker 2: and so they worked together for three years. He liked
Speaker 2: his very direct, hands on approach, no nonsense approach, talking clearly,
Speaker 2: not trying to soften things, but just like a very
Speaker 2: direct approach. He liked that and so it was the
Speaker 2: natural choice, it seems for him, and there was no
Speaker 2: other competition in terms of leadership or anything like that.
Speaker 2: Something that would take place certainly today, but it was
Speaker 2: just he was just named as the one who would
Speaker 2: create GGG nine and that was basically it.
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit more about Wagner, and
Speaker 1: you know, you told us why he was selected. But
Speaker 1: who was this guy as a person? Where what was
Speaker 1: his background?
Speaker 2: His background was military. He was born in the late
Speaker 2: nineteen twenties in Utaburg. That's a little town southeast of Berlin,
Speaker 2: and that was a garrison city and his father was
Speaker 2: a soldier. He served with the reiswer that was the
Speaker 2: predecessor of the Wehrmacht of the Third Reich. So he
Speaker 2: very early came into contact in touch with the military.
Speaker 2: And he was also his father was very conservative. They
Speaker 2: were very Prussian in their in their whole approach. He
Speaker 2: liked that very much. He was He liked punctuality and
Speaker 2: values and keeping to your word and these all these
Speaker 2: values that are connected with Prussian and German. Well, how
Speaker 2: do you say that? He was very very Prussian in
Speaker 2: that sense, very conservative, but not very keen on the
Speaker 2: national socialists that were just coming on in the nineteen thirties.
Speaker 2: His father didn't like the whole ideology. He was very patriotic,
Speaker 2: very nationalist, but he didn't like the ideaology of anti
Speaker 2: Semitism of the NSDAP, the National Socialist movement, and he
Speaker 2: liked the whole the Hitler cult and all that surrounds it.
Speaker 2: He clearly disliked that. Ulrich, being a young kid at
Speaker 2: the time, he saw himself in a position that he
Speaker 2: needed to join the Hitler Judent Hitler Youth but so
Speaker 2: because everybody was going there, so he thought I have
Speaker 2: to go as well, And in his memoirs he writes
Speaker 2: that he had to apply the Hitler salute, that was
Speaker 2: a necessity, but he didn't like it too much. He
Speaker 2: was certainly no resistance fighter against the Nazi regime, but
Speaker 2: he was kind of swimming along with it. When the
Speaker 2: war was almost over, he was just at the age
Speaker 2: that he could be drafted and was sent to defend
Speaker 2: the Eastern Front. But that was a very short episode
Speaker 2: and then the war was over, and yeah, he was
Speaker 2: left in the eastern part of Germany that was controlled
Speaker 2: by the Soviet Union, and he hadn't been really a
Speaker 2: resistance fighter against the Nazis, although he didn't like them,
Speaker 2: but he surely was anti communist. So he founded a
Speaker 2: kind of a little resistance movement himself, basically printing letters
Speaker 2: and leaflets and yeah, spreading them. And it didn't take
Speaker 2: long until the fox pull it side. The People's Police
Speaker 2: of Eastern Germany caught him and put him on trial,
Speaker 2: very short trial, and eighteen months later he was allowed
Speaker 2: to leave prison. So he was in a situation where
Speaker 2: he well, what do I do now? And he went
Speaker 2: to Western Germany, returned for a short period, but then
Speaker 2: finally went to the western part of Germany where he
Speaker 2: ended up. After his incarceration, he was very, very thin
Speaker 2: and yeah, he had barely he was bones and skinned basically,
Speaker 2: and he ended up in a camp, in a refugee
Speaker 2: camp in southern Germany and was a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, he got better after a couple of weeks,
Speaker 2: and then there were people looking for personnel for the
Speaker 2: local riot police, and that's when he joined the police.
Speaker 2: And a couple of years later he decided whether to
Speaker 2: go to the newly established bundes So the National Army,
Speaker 2: or the bunds Granschutz the Border Guard. He applied for
Speaker 2: both and he just ended up with the border Guards
Speaker 2: because the acceptance letter arrived first from the Border Guard.
Speaker 2: So that's how he got into the force, and then
Speaker 2: he worked his way up through the ranks basically in
Speaker 2: the coming years and decades. And he obviously spoke very
Speaker 2: good English. So he was sent to Bavaria, to the
Speaker 2: border in the east, and so every time American Army
Speaker 2: officers came to inspection, he was sent there to give
Speaker 2: them the tour, and so he was kind of the
Speaker 2: interpreter of this unit that he was serving with. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and so he worked up his way through the ranks,
Speaker 2: and then there was a big maneuver in nineteen sixty
Speaker 2: eight called FALLIX sixty eight, and he was sent to
Speaker 2: Bond to the Ministry of the Interior as a liaison
Speaker 2: office to prepare for this for this big maneuver military
Speaker 2: maneuver that the Border Patrol was part of and was
Speaker 2: taking part in. And that's when he met Gentscher, And
Speaker 2: that was then when he became his liaison officer over
Speaker 2: the limited time beyond the limited time that was connected
Speaker 2: with this maneuver, and that's how he, yeah, how they
Speaker 2: met and how they got to know each other.
Speaker 1: So I would love to ask you how Ulrich Wagner
Speaker 1: went about establishing GSG nine having to build this unit
Speaker 1: from scratch essentially, and for context for American viewers, nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy two, this is five years before the United States
Speaker 1: even began creating Delta Force. The unit was started in
Speaker 1: seventy seven, I think fully activated in nineteen eighty. So
Speaker 1: we as a ma Mericans did not know how to
Speaker 1: do this stuff either in nineteen seventy two. There's no
Speaker 1: textbook really that he can go to and read. How
Speaker 1: did he start to put this capability together?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the first big question. As I said,
Speaker 2: the unit was established, or the at least the legal
Speaker 2: work for the unit was established within a couple of
Speaker 2: weeks after the Olympic massacre in Munich. So the letter
Speaker 2: of the Ministry of the Interior went out on the
Speaker 2: twenty sixth of September, which was three weeks up to
Speaker 2: the day, three weeks after the massacre in Munich. So
Speaker 2: he had a couple of ideas. But as you said,
Speaker 2: there is no textbook for it. There were in the
Speaker 2: US they were the first swap teams kind of being created,
Speaker 2: but they didn't really seem to know what they were
Speaker 2: doing with it. The British had some experience with the
Speaker 2: sas did the special service, and there were basically only
Speaker 2: the Israelis who really had operational experience in this field.
Speaker 2: And so what Wigner did, and that was really something
Speaker 2: out of the ordinary, is he went to Genscher and
Speaker 2: asked him to go to Israel and ask the Israelis
Speaker 2: how they do that stuff. And you can imagine, just
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks after the whole Israel delegation Olympic
Speaker 2: delegation has been murdered on German ground and with the
Speaker 2: complete and utter failure of German security forces that they
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't be too pleased about hearing. You know, now
Speaker 2: is a German he wants to learn about all that.
Speaker 2: So Genscher told him that he was crazy, that they
Speaker 2: would probably they would certainly not have him, but they did,
Speaker 2: and they said, yes, let's you can come over. We
Speaker 2: have a course, a training course, and you can participate.
Speaker 2: And that was really something out of the ordinary because
Speaker 2: there as a side note, just a couple of weeks,
Speaker 2: just on the day before Vigner went to Israel, there
Speaker 2: was another abduction of a German aircraft to Jugoslavia and
Speaker 2: the demand of the terrorists was to liberate those three
Speaker 2: surviving terrorists from Munich and the German government, well, they
Speaker 2: didn't hesitate one moment, They just released the prisoners. So
Speaker 2: you can imagine that the Israeli government was not too
Speaker 2: amused about that. They really really were disappointed. And the
Speaker 2: Israeli German West German one must say, there was an
Speaker 2: East German state as well, but the West German Israeli
Speaker 2: relationships at that point were on an absolute low. So
Speaker 2: and in this situation goes to Israel and takes part
Speaker 2: in this two week course and he is not received
Speaker 2: very well in the beginning, but within one week they
Speaker 2: realized that Vigna is very serious about what he wants
Speaker 2: to learn. He knows exactly what he wants to learn.
Speaker 2: He asks questions, he doesn't say much, he just asks
Speaker 2: questions and only stops asking questions when he's really really
Speaker 2: satisfied with the answers. And they respect that. And over
Speaker 2: the time there are they are even friendships that are
Speaker 2: being developed out of that, And even.
Speaker 1: Lifelong jumped out at me Martin was his One of
Speaker 1: his friends in Israel was Yanni Natan Yahoo, which seems
Speaker 1: very natural. Like knowing what I've read about the two
Speaker 1: of them, they sound like very similar take charge leaders.
Speaker 2: You know, right exactly. Yeah, they are a couple of
Speaker 2: names that stand out. One of the unit leaders one
Speaker 2: who was ordered to stand by. That was another little
Speaker 2: side story of the Olympic story. In nineteen seventy two,
Speaker 2: there was a unit on stand by in Tel Aviv
Speaker 2: in order they were ready to go in there and
Speaker 2: solve the situation, but they were not allowed because the
Speaker 2: German government didn't allow foreign forces on German ground, so
Speaker 2: they never did that. And the leader of that unit
Speaker 2: was Ihud Barak, who later then became Prime Minister of Israel,
Speaker 2: of course, and so he was also on that court.
Speaker 2: And also from there there was a friendship with Vigna
Speaker 2: that developed from this point on and since then there
Speaker 2: has been a very close relationship between the Israelis and
Speaker 2: GISG nine in Germany, and up to this day it's
Speaker 2: very very close. Because they said, you know, of course
Speaker 2: that was a disaster what happened there in nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: two in Munich, but you know, we have to make
Speaker 2: sure that we're fighting on eye level with the Germans,
Speaker 2: that something like that might not happen again. And so
Speaker 2: they were open and as they said, I've spoken to
Speaker 2: Ruben Casby, who was also I'm not sure if he
Speaker 2: was in that first cause, but he was a lifelong
Speaker 2: friend and who established a special force anti terror force
Speaker 2: for himself, and he told me we went much much
Speaker 2: further with the Germans than with any other nationality because
Speaker 2: we knew that they could do the job that they
Speaker 2: would if they set their mind to it. They would
Speaker 2: be very very good in what they're doing, and they
Speaker 2: understand understood how you go about special operations and counter
Speaker 2: terrorism measures. And so that's how this relationship was established.
Speaker 2: And as I said, it still stands today.
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Speaker 1: There were some unique things that Wagner took away, like
Speaker 1: like one of the things you talk about in the
Speaker 1: book is how he task organized his unit into smaller
Speaker 1: strike groups.
Speaker 3: Where where did that kind of idea come from? Was
Speaker 3: that German? Or is really.
Speaker 2: Neither? He came back with a from from this two
Speaker 2: week trip with you know, a bag full of ideas,
Speaker 2: and then of course then the next question is, okay,
Speaker 2: how do we implement that into into German necessities and
Speaker 2: German structures? How do we incorporate that? And so he
Speaker 2: started wondering, Okay, how do I organize this this whole thing?
Speaker 2: And he looked through the literature and couldn't really find something.
Speaker 2: And then he basically crossed the eye to the opponent
Speaker 2: opposing side, and he read a book by Marigella is
Speaker 2: his name. He that was the handbook for the guerrilla
Speaker 2: War that was very very popular in left leftish well
Speaker 2: left extremely left violent circles, and so there were there
Speaker 2: were yeah, it was it was a small book basically
Speaker 2: just like forty fifty pages long. It was not an
Speaker 2: official print. It was only you know, black copies that
Speaker 2: were circulating. And so they he suggests that there needs
Speaker 2: to be fire squads in order to to be flexible
Speaker 2: and to do the things that that a gorilla, a
Speaker 2: gorilla group has to do. You need to organize yourself
Speaker 2: in fire groups, and that they consist of no more
Speaker 2: than five or six people, and they work more or
Speaker 2: less autonomously. Initiative is the keyword here, So there's there's
Speaker 2: nothing without initiative. Of course, they are connected to each
Speaker 2: other and they have to follow orders, but in the
Speaker 2: situation they have to decide for themselves what is best,
Speaker 2: and they have to act autonomously and also get into
Speaker 2: the initiative and don't just wait for orders from above.
Speaker 2: And so Vigner more or less took this idea one
Speaker 2: on one and just implemented that, and he created not
Speaker 2: fire groups, as Marigalatol said. The margalatold it, but he
Speaker 2: named them a s E T. Sitz Einsat Troop's Special
Speaker 2: operation team, and that was the nucleus of GSG nine.
Speaker 2: So there were five man strong sets and they would
Speaker 2: be part of one of the three GSG nine units
Speaker 2: operational units. And the idea was that everybody has to
Speaker 2: be able to rely on everybody else within this group.
Speaker 2: Trust is a keyword for that, and also the possibility
Speaker 2: and capability that each member of the group can do
Speaker 2: the job of each other member of the group, so
Speaker 2: that you know you can you can rely on each other,
Speaker 2: and if one member is well, is taken out or
Speaker 2: is not part of the group anymore, the group is
Speaker 2: still able to act and to work together. So that
Speaker 2: was the basic idea, and Vigna got that from Gillia
Speaker 2: Guerrilla Handbook.
Speaker 1: And then he also faced all kinds of problems with
Speaker 1: sourcing equipment, right, Like the pistols were inadequate, the holsters
Speaker 1: for the pistols were inadequate, the repelling harnesses were inadequate.
Speaker 1: How did he go about the you know, testing and
Speaker 1: evaluation and development of the gear that the unit was
Speaker 1: to use.
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's that's of course, something that Vegana didn't
Speaker 2: do just by himself. So we have a couple of
Speaker 2: those veterans, some that I had the opportunity to interview
Speaker 2: as well, and they told me that they basically did
Speaker 2: lights On end with brainstorming thinking about okay, you know,
Speaker 2: what do we have, what is the equipment, what is
Speaker 2: the weaponry that we have, and what do we want
Speaker 2: to do and what we can what can we use
Speaker 2: for for that what we want to do? And the
Speaker 2: answer was basically nothing. So they said, well, well we
Speaker 2: didn't need heavy armament, we didn't need heavy armed vehicles.
Speaker 2: We need fast vehicles, we need helicopters. In terms of
Speaker 2: the uniform, you know, they hadn't. They had nice uniforms
Speaker 2: from the border Guard, with nice pockets and shiny buttons
Speaker 2: and all that stuff. And they said, well, for what
Speaker 2: we are going to do if we have to you know,
Speaker 2: if we have to go out on a night, we can't.
Speaker 2: Can't have shiny buttons. They had a nice, a nice
Speaker 2: tie a boat, not on a boat, a tie, uh,
Speaker 2: and you know what happens with a tie, You get
Speaker 2: strangled by the by the bad guys. So off with it.
Speaker 2: So they started to redesign their own uniforms. They took
Speaker 2: their working uniforms that they had and then they started
Speaker 2: literally with needle and thread to rework their uniforms to
Speaker 2: make them adequate for what they had in mind what
Speaker 2: they would do so that it could move, that it
Speaker 2: could fight. You know that if you go into a
Speaker 2: close quartifight, you need to be able to move. So
Speaker 2: and since, as we have established already, since there was
Speaker 2: no textbook and no no nowhere where you could see
Speaker 2: how it's done, it was just trial and error. And
Speaker 2: then at some point Vigna would come in and he
Speaker 2: would look at it and say, yeah, fine, okay, let's
Speaker 2: do it like that. And that was very much out
Speaker 2: of the ordinary because the Bunschutz, the border patrol was
Speaker 2: very much, very traditional, very conservative, and you just wouldn't
Speaker 2: do certain things like the head gear. They had a
Speaker 2: very nice cap, you know, so it looks a little
Speaker 2: bit like a baseball cap, but it's it's it's not it.
Speaker 2: And they said, well, you know, when we move, it
Speaker 2: just falls off. It's it's no use this cap. So
Speaker 2: what head gear can we use? And Vigna brought back
Speaker 2: from Israel beret and so they said, okay, then let's
Speaker 2: have a beret. That's that's cool and it sticks on
Speaker 2: your head when you when you move, so let's have
Speaker 2: a beret. And they were able to actually, uh to
Speaker 2: to actually have that inspected by the Inspector General of
Speaker 2: the Boons Glenshots, the highest ranking officer. When he came
Speaker 2: for inspection, he first test said, well, you you're completely
Speaker 2: gone nuts. You can't run around and with that had gear,
Speaker 2: because nobody had that at the time. Nobody was wearing
Speaker 2: berets and that was very very unusual either in the
Speaker 2: in the army nor in the Border Patrol, the Border Guard,
Speaker 2: so that was very out of the ordinary. But then
Speaker 2: they convinced him to do it anyway, and that stuck
Speaker 2: with it and it didn't take long until other units
Speaker 2: within the Border Patrol were also wearing berets, and up
Speaker 2: to this day that's the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just check and seeing that the pictures of
Speaker 1: some of the heads of GSG nine, the pictures you
Speaker 1: have in your book, they're wearing berets. So that's a
Speaker 1: tradition that stuck around.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and they're very proud of their
Speaker 2: berets and also being like the first ones, as the
Speaker 2: GSG nine has been the first ones with a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff, and that is true for their uniforms, that's
Speaker 2: true for their equipment. They kind of served as a yeah,
Speaker 2: as a think tank and workshop for the whole of
Speaker 2: the Border Guard. So what they developed and they what
Speaker 2: they deemed service soon would they way would make their
Speaker 2: way to other units as well of the Border Guard.
Speaker 2: And that is also true for the weaponry, of course,
Speaker 2: because what they had wouldn't serve them any good in
Speaker 2: any counter terrorished counter terrorist operation. So they talked to
Speaker 2: Heckler and Koch and to other manufacturers of weaponry and
Speaker 2: gave them their specifics. And basically a lot of new
Speaker 2: developments were exclusive, not exclusively, but were first of all
Speaker 2: made for GSG nine and they put it into service,
Speaker 2: like sharp shooting rifles and so on, and then they
Speaker 2: made their way to the other units of the Buddu
Speaker 2: Grand Shirts.
Speaker 1: So to kind of switch gears a little bit, I
Speaker 1: want to ask you about the Red arm Faction or
Speaker 1: the Better Mine Off Gang. Who were they and what
Speaker 1: were they up to in Germany at this time frame,
Speaker 1: because this is of course going to point into what
Speaker 1: we talk about next.
Speaker 2: Right, The Banamnov Gang which was then later termed or
Speaker 2: called itself Red Army Faction RAF so not to be
Speaker 2: confused with the Royal Air Force. They they were a
Speaker 2: result of the nineteen sixty eight sixty nine demonstrations the
Speaker 2: protests against the Vietnam War in Germany. There were big
Speaker 2: protests in the US, of course, but they were also
Speaker 2: in Germany and there was a big left wing movement
Speaker 2: and some of those who protested there. Most of them stayed,
Speaker 2: of course illegal, but some moved into illegal terror and
Speaker 2: that The Bada Minehoff gang was one of those terrorist
Speaker 2: cells that established in the late nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies. Uh,
Speaker 2: and so Bada was I'm just forgetting the first name
Speaker 2: of Andreas. It was his name, Andreas Barda was the
Speaker 2: head of the whole thing, the basically, yeah, the male
Speaker 2: head of the gang. And Rika Meinhoff was the intellectual
Speaker 2: figurehead of this gang. And they came into existence, as
Speaker 2: I said, in the late nineteen sixties, beginning nineteen seventies
Speaker 2: and committed In the beginning it was more like arsonists attack,
Speaker 2: but then soon turned into deadly attacks against politicians and
Speaker 2: against institutions, and just in the in the spring of
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two, there was a six week long offensive
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two they called it, with a lot of
Speaker 2: attacks and killings. If I remember correctly, it was eight
Speaker 2: people were killed in that time against the state, the
Speaker 2: West German state, and they were in the sub By
Speaker 2: the summer, they were all incarcerated, All members of this
Speaker 2: gang were incarcerated and waiting for trial, and that was
Speaker 2: then when the Olympic massacre happened in the summer, and
Speaker 2: so of course the terrorists demanded the release also of
Speaker 2: these the terrorists of the Red Army faction of the
Speaker 2: Battle Meinhoff, who had been trained before by Palestinian terrorists.
Speaker 2: And so there was a very very close connection between
Speaker 2: the German terrorist RAF faction and other German terrorist groups
Speaker 2: and Palestinian terrorists groups like the p p F LP,
Speaker 2: and so that's what it came about. And it was
Speaker 2: clear when GSG nine was established that RAF would be
Speaker 2: one of their yeah most exquisite opponents, and that they
Speaker 2: would it would be necessary to mainly fight against them,
Speaker 2: that when a terrorist threat would arise, it would probably
Speaker 2: be the RAF that they would have to go against.
Speaker 1: Was there, I mean, this is probably a little controversial,
Speaker 1: but was there ever any connections between the r a
Speaker 1: F and any of the Warsaw Pact intelligence services?
Speaker 2: Sorry you were blocked out for just ten seconds.
Speaker 1: I was just asking this is a little controversial. But
Speaker 1: was there ever any evidence of the RAF working in
Speaker 1: tandem with any of the intelligence services in the Warsaw Pact.
Speaker 2: Yes, there is, It's not controversial. That is well established
Speaker 2: that there was cooperation. I'm not sure if that was
Speaker 2: already in the early years like nineteen seventy two or
Speaker 2: even nineteen seventy seven. I know that there was cooperation
Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties and a lot of or quite
Speaker 2: quite a few of those RAF combatants terrorists, they went
Speaker 2: to the GDR to Eastern Germany to live there to
Speaker 2: avoid being captured in West Germany. So yeah, their close
Speaker 2: connection to the Shtazi, the Stazi Schahaide. I think it
Speaker 2: is it is established that there were the connections, how
Speaker 2: deep they were. I think this is not completely uncovered
Speaker 2: so far. I'm not sure if it will be uncovered
Speaker 2: because the documents have been destroyed as far as I know,
Speaker 2: so there there might be not not much to discover
Speaker 2: anymore then there is, but I think the documents are
Speaker 2: just missing.
Speaker 1: And also in the lead up to what we're what
Speaker 1: we're working up to here is there was another incident
Speaker 1: too where there was a demands for several RAF terrorists
Speaker 1: to be released. They were sent to third countries, but
Speaker 1: then they came right back to Germany and went back
Speaker 1: to their life of crime, right.
Speaker 2: Right. That was in nineteen seventy five when when the
Speaker 2: that was not RAF, that was the revolution the Revolutionary Cells,
Speaker 2: when they abducted the candidate, the Conservative candidate for the
Speaker 2: mayor of Berlin for a couple of days, and so
Speaker 2: they demanded the release of hostages, sorry, the release of
Speaker 2: prisoners from German prisons. As it's always the case, the
Speaker 2: these whole this whole endeavor of the German terrorists soon
Speaker 2: turned into liberate the guerrilla gorilla, you know. So they
Speaker 2: fought for release of their prisoners, and there were RAF
Speaker 2: prisoners as well that were supposed to be released. They
Speaker 2: were very close connected the Revolutionary Cells and the RAF.
Speaker 2: Partly the personnel was the same, different name, but the
Speaker 2: same people. So that was the abduction of this candidate
Speaker 2: and the German government under Helmut Schmidt. It will become
Speaker 2: important in a moment they decided, and Helmuch Schmidt decided
Speaker 2: to say, okay, we will give in, we release these prisoners.
Speaker 2: We demand that they leave Germany and never come back.
Speaker 2: That was what was agreed, and so the candidate for
Speaker 2: the mayor of Berlin. He was released, and the prisoners
Speaker 2: were released, and they were put into aircraft and sent
Speaker 2: away into the destinations they gave. They probably most of
Speaker 2: them in the Middle of Middle East countries in the
Speaker 2: Middle East who would receive them. But it didn't take
Speaker 2: very long for them to just show up in Germany
Speaker 2: again and then continue their terrorist career. And that was
Speaker 2: the moment when Helmut Schmidt, Chancellor, when he decided, Okay,
Speaker 2: we will not play this game again. Next time, we
Speaker 2: will remain strong and will not give in to the demands,
Speaker 2: because this just leads to an encouragement to commit further
Speaker 2: terrorist attacks, to have more abduction and press free more
Speaker 2: prisoners from their side. So this is a game we
Speaker 2: cannot win if we give in. And that was the
Speaker 2: moment when he decided, okay, next time, we will do
Speaker 2: it differently, all right.
Speaker 1: So let's jump into the next time in this whole
Speaker 1: sequence of events that kind of culminates with this pretty
Speaker 1: epic GSG nine operation in Moked issue. To start at
Speaker 1: the beginning, tell us about the kidnapping of the head
Speaker 1: of the employers Association.
Speaker 2: That was in September, on September fifth, nineteen seve seventy seven.
Speaker 2: And if you remember the attack on the Olympic team,
Speaker 2: the Israel Olympic team was on fifth September the fifth,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. So it was to the day five
Speaker 2: years after that terrible event in Munich. And so Hans
Speaker 2: Martin Schleier, who was an industrial leader, he was called
Speaker 2: the boss of the bosses in Germany. So he was
Speaker 2: a very high ranking industrial, very powerful person. He was
Speaker 2: abducted here in Cologne. And basically if you see the
Speaker 2: if you see the photos from the crime scene, it
Speaker 2: looks like a Hollywood movie. And so his personal detail
Speaker 2: and his driver, four people sitting with him in his
Speaker 2: car were shot, they were killed, and he himself was
Speaker 2: abducted by the Red Army faction. One must say this
Speaker 2: wasn't the first incident in this year. It was the
Speaker 2: third abduction or killing in this year. A couple of
Speaker 2: months before, the Attorney General Bubak He was killed on
Speaker 2: the street by RAF. Then a couple of weeks later
Speaker 2: Jugen Ponto, the boss of the Deutsche Bank, was killed.
Speaker 2: As it turned out later that was the first attempt
Speaker 2: to abduct one political figurehead, or not a political but
Speaker 2: a financial figurehead. But the abduction failed and so they
Speaker 2: just killed him. And now this was the third one,
Speaker 2: and this was the beginning of what now is called
Speaker 2: the Deutsche Abs, the Deutsche Abs, the German Autumn, and
Speaker 2: that was the six weeks that would lead from the
Speaker 2: abduction of Hans Martin Schleier two then the operation in Mogadishu.
Speaker 2: That's when it started. And it was a situation and
Speaker 2: atmosphere here in Germany. I can't remember it. I was
Speaker 2: five years all that at the time, but from my
Speaker 2: parents and from everybody who has consciously witnessed this time
Speaker 2: was really scared because it was a very spooky atmosphere
Speaker 2: atmosphere when Hans Martin Schleier was abducted. This triggered the
Speaker 2: largest search operation in German history. Tens of thousands of
Speaker 2: policemen were involved. You had checkpoints established, cars were searched
Speaker 2: when you wanted posters everywhere, when you looked alike a
Speaker 2: little bit like people from the RAF or if you
Speaker 2: drove a car of the same make that they would
Speaker 2: be known to be driving, then you would be stopped
Speaker 2: and searched with submachine guns. Officers with submachine guns standing by,
Speaker 2: something that has never happened before in Germany. You know,
Speaker 2: German police was usually you know, the friendly cop on
Speaker 2: the corner and he would not be threatened with anything
Speaker 2: more than a truncheon. So this was really an extraordinary situation.
Speaker 2: And that went on for weeks on end because he
Speaker 2: was abducted and never found. And GSG nine was involved
Speaker 2: in the search for Hans Martin Schleier. They searched apartments,
Speaker 2: they searched whole buildings, but they never succeeded. Sometimes they
Speaker 2: seemed to have been very close, with you know, entering rooms,
Speaker 2: empty beds, the bed still warm, coffee warm, cigarettes st
Speaker 2: smoking on the table, and so they seemed to have
Speaker 2: been sometimes very very close, but they never got him.
Speaker 2: And then on October thirteenth, nineteen seventy seven, there was
Speaker 2: the news that an aircraft has changed its course over
Speaker 2: France and it was obviously abducted. And that's when the
Speaker 2: Mugadisha story began.
Speaker 1: And so tell us about that. Did GSG nine get
Speaker 1: pulled off of the search because that was a Luftanza aircraft.
Speaker 2: Right, it was not clear at the beginning, wasn't really
Speaker 2: an abduction. The skyjacking that that took a couple of hours,
Speaker 2: but at the time GSG nine was just busy as well. Again,
Speaker 2: here in Cologne, there's a very very big residential building
Speaker 2: called the Uni Center. It's close to the University of Colonne.
Speaker 2: A lot of students live there and it's a complex
Speaker 2: of some nine hundred and sixty I think apartments there,
Speaker 2: so a huge building, and GSG nine was there the
Speaker 2: whole day, searching from the ground up, from the top down,
Speaker 2: from the inside and from the outside. And they were
Speaker 2: like climbing with ladders outside from balcony to balcony, going
Speaker 2: into the apartment and searching for Hans Martin Schleier because
Speaker 2: there was a car parked in the basement that obviously
Speaker 2: was rented by the Red Army faction, so they suspected
Speaker 2: and there was a suspicious apartment there that they had
Speaker 2: searched before, and so there was the suspicion that he
Speaker 2: was stashed somewhere in one of these more than nine
Speaker 2: hundred apartments. So the whole day they were searching this
Speaker 2: whole building, and in the afternoon, when they were almost finished,
Speaker 2: the news came in that this plane has been deviating
Speaker 2: from its original course, they were started in Majorcar island
Speaker 2: of Majorca. So it was a tourist plane by Lufthansa,
Speaker 2: mostly German passengers on board, on their way back to Frankfurt,
Speaker 2: but they deviated and then ended up in Rome. And
Speaker 2: so while they were on their way to Rome GG
Speaker 2: nine Ulrichvigna he got the information from the crisis staff
Speaker 2: in Bond, which had been established after the abduction of
Speaker 2: Hans Martin Schleier, the industrial boss, and he was ordered to, yeah,
Speaker 2: take action and start the pursuit of this Lufthanza aircraft
Speaker 2: to see what is possible. By that time it was
Speaker 2: not clear that there would be an actual liberation operation,
Speaker 2: but they should just you know, prepare for the eventuality.
Speaker 1: And as I recall, the Italians weren't a lot of
Speaker 1: help as they just wanted the aircraft out of their
Speaker 1: country as fast as possible. So by the time Wagner
Speaker 1: got out of Germany, the terrorists hijacked aircraft was heading
Speaker 1: to Cyprus.
Speaker 2: That's correct. Yes, that was not the only government though,
Speaker 2: the Italians that were happy when the plane took off
Speaker 2: again when they could get rid of them, because you know,
Speaker 2: that's always quite a big inconvenience. If you have a
Speaker 2: foreign aircraft on your style soil with hostages and terrorists
Speaker 2: on board, so how do you react? What do you do? So, yeah,
Speaker 2: the Minister of the Interior of Italy just allowed for
Speaker 2: the aircraft to be refueled and then was very thankful
Speaker 2: that they soon left and went to Cyprus. And so
Speaker 2: when Wagner and twenty twenty people of the GSG nine,
Speaker 2: when they were on their way to Rome, they heard
Speaker 2: the news, Okay, now we have to go to Cyprus.
Speaker 2: When they arrived in Cyprus, they already knew that the
Speaker 2: aircraft was again had taken off and was heading towards
Speaker 2: the Middle East, where they tried to land in the
Speaker 2: Lebanon and in other countries, I think four or five
Speaker 2: countries who denied the landing of the aircraft because nobody
Speaker 2: wanted to have them. And so finally they ended up
Speaker 2: in Dubai. But that was, you know, that was almost
Speaker 2: a day later, and Vigna then ended up in with
Speaker 2: the plane in Turkey in Ankora because they were supposed
Speaker 2: so it was not only GSG nine on the airplane,
Speaker 2: but also people from the Ministry of the Interior, from
Speaker 2: the Bunesqueminala, the Federal Crime Administration or criminal administration, and
Speaker 2: all these these guys on board, and they had they
Speaker 2: had the order to ask the Turkish government what they
Speaker 2: thought of the whole thing, because the demand of the
Speaker 2: terrorists was to liberate a couple to liberate the German
Speaker 2: RAF terrorists, but also a couple of Turkish terrorists. So
Speaker 2: they went to Ancora to ask, okay, what do you
Speaker 2: guys think of it, and how do you want to
Speaker 2: participate in The Turkish just said, well, well, you do
Speaker 2: whatever you think you have to do and keep us
Speaker 2: out of the whole thing. And so they were in
Speaker 2: Ankara where they were detected by a camera team, and
Speaker 2: soon enough not only the Turkish public but also the
Speaker 2: German published public knew that gez G nine were in
Speaker 2: pursuit of the aircraft and that was of course not
Speaker 2: a good thing. So they were ordered back to Germany.
Speaker 2: They couldn't do that, and the officially the Turkish government said,
Speaker 2: well we don't. Of course, we don't allow a German
Speaker 2: army unit in Ankara on our soil. We can't have that.
Speaker 2: So they couldn't officially just leave them there, so they
Speaker 2: had to send them back. Of course, there was a
Speaker 2: police police unit, but that didn't matter at the moment,
Speaker 2: at this very moment. So what happened was that most
Speaker 2: of the GSG nine had to go back, but Wigner
Speaker 2: talked to Chancellor Helmut Schmidt and he got his the
Speaker 2: okay to select a couple of people to take up
Speaker 2: the pursuit again in a smaller aircraft. And that's what
Speaker 2: he did. He chose his adjutants, I don't know, I'm.
Speaker 1: Sorry, like his deputy, his executive officer exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he chose Dita Fox for whatever reason never
Speaker 2: known to this day, but he wanted to have him
Speaker 2: on his side. So three GSG nine guys then took
Speaker 2: up the pursuit of the the abducted aircraft. And yeah,
Speaker 2: that developed into an odyssey because they first ended up
Speaker 2: in in Dubai and there they they had the idea
Speaker 2: that they could do something and start a liberation attempt,
Speaker 2: but they ran into trouble because the Shake of Dubai
Speaker 2: he didn't like the idea, and he said, well, if
Speaker 2: there will be a liberation attempt, I will have my
Speaker 2: rangers do that, and maybe you can show them how
Speaker 2: you do that. So they can do it in a
Speaker 2: better fashion. And of course GESG nine had trained for
Speaker 2: the liberation of aircraft for years on end. That was
Speaker 2: something they really specialized in because, as we said in
Speaker 2: the beginning, there were a lot of skyjacking incidents in
Speaker 2: the late nineteen sixties in nineteen seventies, and it was
Speaker 2: clear from the outset that skyjacks skyjackings will be the
Speaker 2: most probable situation scenario that GESG nine would have to
Speaker 2: deal with. And so for days on end and nights
Speaker 2: on end, they practiced aircraft assaults and did it over
Speaker 2: and over again, very very detailed, very specific in what
Speaker 2: they did and how they did it, and learn every
Speaker 2: detail because it's the details that count in such a situation.
Speaker 2: You know, the liberation of an aircraft is basically the
Speaker 2: highest level of liberation that you can have. A room
Speaker 2: is difficult, a car or bus is even more difficult,
Speaker 2: a train very very difficult. Boat, yes, one more step.
Speaker 2: But since you don't know what is going on inside
Speaker 2: an aircraft and you only have those tiny windows and
Speaker 2: usually the blinds are shut. In situations like that, you
Speaker 2: have no idea what is going on, and you only
Speaker 2: have very few access points. So you really have to
Speaker 2: train and exercise a lot in order to be able
Speaker 2: to do that. So now they're in Dubai and they
Speaker 2: are being told, well, okay, show our ranges in after
Speaker 2: know how you deal with such a threat, how you
Speaker 2: do an aircraft assault, And that's what they tried, and
Speaker 2: that's what they tried to teach them, but it failed.
Speaker 2: And they tried to convince the Shake that it would
Speaker 2: be better if the Germans did it, but he would
Speaker 2: not have it and would just insist that his people
Speaker 2: would do it. But before this actually could put into practice,
Speaker 2: the land Suit that's the name of the aircraft, it
Speaker 2: took off again and nobody would know where they would
Speaker 2: be going. And so they followed them once again and
Speaker 2: went to Arden and where the aircraft was was touching
Speaker 2: down again. They didn't get they were not allowed to
Speaker 2: land there, but they did it anyway. The the the
Speaker 2: runway was ploged, was blocked by tanks, but the co
Speaker 2: pilot he sat down the the aircraft on basically on
Speaker 2: the on the it was like.
Speaker 5: The runway, yeah, and so they they thought that the
Speaker 5: landing gear was was affected by that because it was
Speaker 5: just you know, it was just a sand track.
Speaker 2: That they were landing on. They had to, they didn't
Speaker 2: have any fuel left in the tanks anymore. So they
Speaker 2: sat down there on the tracks and the captain of
Speaker 2: the aircraft, Captain Schumann, he said, well, I have to
Speaker 2: check the landing gear. And he was allowed by the
Speaker 2: terrorists to step outside and check the landing gear. But
Speaker 2: he didn't return for more than half an hour, almost
Speaker 2: an hour, and so the terrorists got nervous, and when
Speaker 2: he finally came back, he the leader of the terrorists
Speaker 2: got very, very angry and shouted at him and had
Speaker 2: him kneel befront him and kneel before him in the
Speaker 2: middle aisle of the aircraft. You must imagine like passengers
Speaker 2: left and right, and in the middle of the middle aisle.
Speaker 2: He would have him kneel and ask him what did
Speaker 2: you do? What do you do to do? And he
Speaker 2: said nothing, I just checked the gear. And then the
Speaker 2: terrorist leader of the terrorists executed him with a shot
Speaker 2: in the head. So that was the moment when G
Speaker 2: nine learned of that mass of that assassin, of that killing,
Speaker 2: that they knew, Okay, it's very probable that we reach
Speaker 2: a solution, peaceful solution. It will be a violent solution
Speaker 2: necessary in order to end this whole thing. So GC
Speaker 2: nine was not allowed to touchdown in Arden. They deviated
Speaker 2: and then finally the ones who took off from Arden
Speaker 2: and a couple of hours later they ended in Mogadishu.
Speaker 2: What I've told now took place over four days. So
Speaker 2: this this is basically a very concise, even though I've
Speaker 2: talked for quite a bit, This is a concise, very
Speaker 2: very shortened version of what happened there in these five days.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that was that was this the story that
Speaker 2: led to Mogadishu. And in Mogadishu, of course, vy Vigna
Speaker 2: then tried to convince the President of Somalia dictate dictator
Speaker 2: of the name bag that was his name. He tried
Speaker 2: to convince the dictator to have gs G nine do
Speaker 2: the raid, and it was more or less like a
Speaker 2: deja vu for him, because the president said, no, I
Speaker 2: have my own people I have arranged here. They can
Speaker 2: do that. You can show them how to do it.
Speaker 2: And so once again he ordered his guys to show
Speaker 2: the guys there on the ground how to do it.
Speaker 2: And it was even worse than in Dubai. And at
Speaker 2: some point the commander, the Somali commander said, okay, I agree,
Speaker 2: we can't do this. You do that, and then it
Speaker 2: took some convincing of the of the president until he
Speaker 2: finally agreed, okay, we have a foreign force, the German
Speaker 2: police force on Somali soil, conducting this operation. But finally
Speaker 2: that he agreed, and that was the point when they
Speaker 2: called in the rest of the GSG nine force that
Speaker 2: had been waiting in the Mediterranean in the meantime, and
Speaker 2: so they negotiated with the terrorists a couple of hours
Speaker 2: so that ges J nine they told them basically, okay,
Speaker 2: we have reached an agreement. We set your prisoners free.
Speaker 2: We follow your demands, but we need to, you know,
Speaker 2: bring all the prisoners from German prisons together and have
Speaker 2: to put them on an aircraft to then send them
Speaker 2: over to Somalia. So that takes a while. And that
Speaker 2: was the story that they told them. They never planned
Speaker 2: to do anything like that. It was just the explanation
Speaker 2: to gained time in order to get the GSG nineties
Speaker 2: to Somalia, to Mogadishu. And well, when they arrived, it
Speaker 2: was almost night and they started preparations for the assault
Speaker 2: and all the time the passengers on the plane. They
Speaker 2: were there, and their situation was very very miserable, very
Speaker 2: miserable because they had spent the last five days on
Speaker 2: this plane, and starting after two three days, the toilets
Speaker 2: were clogged. It was really disaster. They had no possibility
Speaker 2: to go to the toilet. They were forced to soil
Speaker 2: their seats. You can imagine what that means. The terrorists
Speaker 2: had taken all the purses and the hand baggage from
Speaker 2: the female terrorists, sorry, from the female hostages. So what happened.
Speaker 2: A lot of young ladies were on board and they
Speaker 2: didn't have the anpty reception, the birth control medication, yeah,
Speaker 2: the medication, they didn't have that, so they started to
Speaker 2: get their men's creation and so you know, all of
Speaker 2: this happened on board during this time, and it was
Speaker 2: really nasty inside and of course it was hot. They
Speaker 2: were sitting on the runway, they were only open to
Speaker 2: only able to open the door one door at a time,
Speaker 2: so there was no really exchange of air. It was
Speaker 2: really really a terrible condition for the hostages. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: in this situation, the preparations for the assault on the
Speaker 2: night of the eighteenth of October then began.
Speaker 1: And so Wagner is on the ground with I believe
Speaker 1: it was the German charge that's having to go through
Speaker 1: the political process and they get they have to go
Speaker 1: and get the okay from Helmut Schmidt.
Speaker 2: Correct. Yes, Ultimately it was Helmut Schmidt's decision. He had
Speaker 2: to give the order and he was back in Bond
Speaker 2: at the crisis staff. And the one has to imagine that,
Speaker 2: of course, the tele telecommunication system back then was much
Speaker 2: more rudimentary than it is today. You had that telephone
Speaker 2: lines where you had to shout into the speaker in
Speaker 2: order for somebody on the other end to hear anything,
Speaker 2: and so maybe telex, but that was about it. So
Speaker 2: he was reliant on the information that he was getting
Speaker 2: from the the charge de da Fair Libal was his name,
Speaker 2: and of the well he was ants Jung Vishnevsky. He
Speaker 2: was the Minister of State who was also sent there
Speaker 2: to negotiate with the President of Somalia. And he was
Speaker 2: on the plane for a couple of days, and he
Speaker 2: was very well known in the Middle East. He spoke
Speaker 2: the Arabian language and was very close as well with
Speaker 2: the with the Palestinians not so much, but with Arabian
Speaker 2: States and with the Israelis as well, So he was
Speaker 2: basically the chief negotiator in the cabinet of Helmuch Schmid,
Speaker 2: and he dealt with the president in the first place.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, he would then say, okay, I have
Speaker 2: Schmidt on the line, Helmuch Schmidt, and you have to
Speaker 2: give now the order to actually do that. And that
Speaker 2: was a very tough decision for the Chancellor because he
Speaker 2: knew that a lot of things can go wrong in
Speaker 2: such an operation. They didn't know if they had had
Speaker 2: explosives on board. They I think, yeah, they knew that
Speaker 2: there were explosives, but were they hots? Were they were
Speaker 2: the doors? For example? Did they put explosives on the
Speaker 2: door so when they would open the door that they
Speaker 2: would go off? Would they maybe blow off the whole
Speaker 2: the plane? That was a risk that he was taking
Speaker 2: and he had to make the decision to say, yes,
Speaker 2: we're going to do that. So it was for him
Speaker 2: it was politically a big gamble. His resignation letter was
Speaker 2: already written, just needed the signature, so if that whole
Speaker 2: operation had gone sideways, he would have stepped down the
Speaker 2: next morning. So it was a pivotal moment for this government,
Speaker 2: and to be honest, for the whole, for the whole
Speaker 2: country of Western Germany. And I think hardly imagine how
Speaker 2: it would have turned out if this operation had gone wrong.
Speaker 1: Didn't Dieter tell you that if it had gone south,
Speaker 1: the entire unit would probably be finished at that point.
Speaker 2: Yes, that is what Dieta Fox told me. He's very
Speaker 2: convinced of that, and he has discussed that with Ulrich
Speaker 2: Vigna several times, he told me. And I've talked to politicians.
Speaker 2: I've talked to a former Minister of the Interior who said,
Speaker 2: who denies that? Who says no, no, of course not.
Speaker 2: You know, things can happen. And maybe if this had
Speaker 2: gone if this had gone sideways, Grey nine would probably
Speaker 2: not have been abolished. But having said that, that would
Speaker 2: really have been the least of Germany's problems at that point,
Speaker 2: because this, as I said, this was really a pivotal
Speaker 2: moment in the history of Germany, of Western Germany at least,
Speaker 2: but I think for all of the German or whole
Speaker 2: of Germany, because this was really a test for the
Speaker 2: German state, for the rule of law, for the German democracy,
Speaker 2: this whole German autumn, as it is called today. That
Speaker 2: was putting Germany, the West German state, to the test.
Speaker 2: And if that had failed, as I said, I think
Speaker 2: the abolition or the ending the GSG nine would have
Speaker 2: been the least of the problems that would have come
Speaker 2: out of it.
Speaker 1: Before we get into the assault of the aircraft, one
Speaker 1: thing I want to mention that the terrorists who took
Speaker 1: over the aircraft was a Palestinian group, but they were
Speaker 1: doing this ostensibly sort of like as a favor to
Speaker 1: the RAF.
Speaker 2: Right, That's that's right. It was kind of a terror
Speaker 2: joint venture, so to speak. The relationships between the Yeah,
Speaker 2: the relationship between the Red Army Faction and the PFLP
Speaker 2: was quite close. As I said, the top members of
Speaker 2: the Bartomine of gang had been trained in Palestinian camps
Speaker 2: and so there were close relationships between the two. And
Speaker 2: there was also an agreement also with Japanese terrorist groups
Speaker 2: that in situations like these they could call in each
Speaker 2: other and to do jobs for them. And this is
Speaker 2: this is exactly what happened. It was about the whole
Speaker 2: abduction of Hans Martin Schleier was an RAF Red Army
Speaker 2: Faction operation. They wanted to have their prisoner's release, the
Speaker 2: original founding members of a Red Army faction, and so
Speaker 2: when this didn't work out, when the abduction dragged on
Speaker 2: for weeks on end, they decided to step up a
Speaker 2: bit to up the ante and then hired basically PFLP
Speaker 2: to abduct the Luftanza flight LH one it one and
Speaker 2: that's how it happened. Yeah, it's it's surprising, and you
Speaker 2: know they had their demands were the release of German prisoners.
Speaker 2: Why because of this tight connection.
Speaker 3: And as.
Speaker 1: Wagner is preparing for the assault, there's one final detail
Speaker 1: I'd like to mention. I thought it was very interesting.
Speaker 1: He noticed one of his men didn't have body armor,
Speaker 1: and so he takes off his and gives it to
Speaker 1: one of his men, and then he personally leads the
Speaker 1: assault on the aircraft. And like when I read that,
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, I understand immediately why these guys loved.
Speaker 2: Him, and that this is exactly the reason why. Yes,
Speaker 2: they were very happy because they received anti bullet vests,
Speaker 2: new anti bullet vests from the British. They supported the
Speaker 2: whole the whole operation quite a bit, and one of
Speaker 2: the things they brought along were these vests. But they
Speaker 2: were one short of these vests, so Vigna had one,
Speaker 2: and as you said, he just took it off, gave
Speaker 2: it to one of his of the one man without
Speaker 2: the vest, and then said, okay, I'll be in the front,
Speaker 2: and everybody after me. And that's why they loved him, really,
Speaker 2: they admired him deeply because he was not one to
Speaker 2: be in the background and you know, being on the
Speaker 2: commander's hill far away where the bullets can't reach them.
Speaker 2: But he was the one to say, okay, I'll be
Speaker 2: in the assault group. He didn't go in as the
Speaker 2: first one. He was I think the third or fourth one,
Speaker 2: but because they had set rules for who opens the door,
Speaker 2: who owns the latters, who goes in first, and so on,
Speaker 2: so they wouldn't disrupt that. But then Wagner went in
Speaker 2: and he is the only one to be known to
Speaker 2: have killed at least one of the terrorists. Otherwise it
Speaker 2: is not known who executed the terrorists.
Speaker 1: Okay, so walk us through the actual assault they have.
Speaker 1: The Chancellor of Germany says, this is a go. You
Speaker 1: got the green light. How do they decide when to
Speaker 1: execute this assault and go through with it?
Speaker 2: So they would approach the aircraft from the rear end
Speaker 2: so that nobody who was maybe accidentally we look outside
Speaker 2: would be able to see them. The approach took them
Speaker 2: about an hour. So they started at eleven at night,
Speaker 2: a local time, and it took them an hour to
Speaker 2: go there. There were like some twenty GSG nine men
Speaker 2: carrying six letters to always having two carrying six letters,
Speaker 2: two of each, and surrounding the surrounding dunes and dunes
Speaker 2: there were snipers, so they had, of course, I'm not
Speaker 2: sure how many. There was, like three or four sniper
Speaker 2: groups that would secure the approach, would start firing if
Speaker 2: accidentally a terrorist would look out over the window, or
Speaker 2: during the assault when somebody tried to escape, they had
Speaker 2: the order to terminate the threat, and so they approached
Speaker 2: very very slowly, very very silently, and die. The fox
Speaker 2: told me that it was really nerve wracking because they thought,
Speaker 2: because they were highly sensible to every noise, every little
Speaker 2: squeak and crack, and thought, well, they must hear us,
Speaker 2: they must hear us, which they didn't. Nobody looked out
Speaker 2: of the window, nobody looked out of the door. They
Speaker 2: were not detected. And then when they finally reached the aircraft.
Speaker 2: They had another problem because there were strong lights from
Speaker 2: the from the apron lighting up the the aircraft, so
Speaker 2: their shadows would cast under the under the body of
Speaker 2: the aircraft, and so if then somebody looked out, they
Speaker 2: would see, okay, they are shadows, there must be somebody
Speaker 2: underneath the aircraft. But also that didn't happen luckily, and
Speaker 2: so what they did is they checked with microphones on
Speaker 2: the body of the plane and checked noises. They tried
Speaker 2: to make sure by the negotiation team that the terrorists
Speaker 2: would be in the front of the aircraft in the cockpit,
Speaker 2: and then they leaned the ladders against the hull of
Speaker 2: the aircraft very very slowly, very silently, they crept up.
Speaker 2: It was a Boeing seven three seven, so not not
Speaker 2: a huge aircraft, so they had to be really careful
Speaker 2: not to start shaking the aircraft. You know, if you
Speaker 2: tread a little bit or if you push a little bit,
Speaker 2: it starts shaking, so that nobody inside notices it and
Speaker 2: it's really silent. And that took quite a while until
Speaker 2: everybody was in position. And as a distraction, they had
Speaker 2: ordered not ordered, but they had agreed with the Somali
Speaker 2: Air Force to light a fire just before the beginning
Speaker 2: of the operation in front of the cockpit, so that
Speaker 2: was a destruction measure, and then the two stunt grenades
Speaker 2: were thrown by British saf officers who were there to
Speaker 2: support the operation, and that's when it started. As soon
Speaker 2: as they exploded, all six doors were opened at the
Speaker 2: same time. They stormed in and started the firefight, which
Speaker 2: lasted not longer than about a minute, and then it
Speaker 2: was over. Three of the terrorists were dead, two where
Speaker 2: dead at once, one died on the way to the hospital,
Speaker 2: and one miss Andravis was severely injured but survived.
Speaker 3: And she was the one in that iconic voter.
Speaker 2: Basically the end.
Speaker 1: Sorry, she was the one in that iconic photograph where
Speaker 1: they're taking her off in the stretcher and she's like
Speaker 1: covered in blood and.
Speaker 2: Everything, yeah, and shouting kill me, kill me. Yeah. She was.
Speaker 2: She was actually put on trial back in the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 2: It took that long until there was a trial against her,
Speaker 2: but she was also sentenced in Germany, but she was
Speaker 2: living in Norway I think by the time, and Norway
Speaker 2: would not would not deliver her to the German authorities.
Speaker 2: So yeah, a very weird thing. So she survived, but
Speaker 2: three of them were dead. One was at least one
Speaker 2: was killed by rich Wagner, and it is not known
Speaker 2: who else fired deadly shots against one of the terrorists.
Speaker 2: So the hostages were evacuated. One of the terrorists was
Speaker 2: able to throw two hand grenades, one of which exploded
Speaker 2: and injured one of the stewardesses, but the other one
Speaker 2: was just got caught in under the seats and it
Speaker 2: was still the next morning it was only found it
Speaker 2: was still hot, but yeah, it didn't go off, so
Speaker 2: that was luck. And yeah, apart from this injury and
Speaker 2: power a couple of scratches from the evacuation procedure, nobody
Speaker 2: was really hurt. One of the G'SG nine guys was
Speaker 2: very very lucky because when they started, when they tried
Speaker 2: to open the door in the front on the right side,
Speaker 2: it was blocked, so they just could open it a
Speaker 2: little bit. The specialty with the Boing seven three seven
Speaker 2: doors is you have to first push them in before
Speaker 2: you can open them, so they could push them could
Speaker 2: push the door open a little bit, just a crack,
Speaker 2: and that was when one of the terrorists saw that
Speaker 2: and fired probably blindly shot through this crack and it
Speaker 2: hit one of the GSG nine offices in the neck
Speaker 2: and it went through the whole neck that it didn't
Speaker 2: hit any arteries or it just failed to hit anything
Speaker 2: that was vital. And so with just basically a couple
Speaker 2: of stitches and a neck thing around his neck, he
Speaker 2: survived and he was he was good a couple of
Speaker 2: days later. So that was the only uh, yeah, not casualty,
Speaker 2: but the injury that GG nine guy has suffered. One
Speaker 2: bullet got stuck I think in an armor plate, but
Speaker 2: that was about it. And so eight minutes after the
Speaker 2: beginning of the assault, Ulivigna was able to to finish,
Speaker 2: to end the operation and to give a telephone call
Speaker 2: to Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, who was really really happy that
Speaker 2: this was a happy ending for him. And he's not
Speaker 2: known to be a very sentimental guy, but that was
Speaker 2: the moment when he actually went into the next room
Speaker 2: to to cry. He was really done with his nerves,
Speaker 2: and yeah, that basically saved his chancellorship. He went on
Speaker 2: to be Chancellor of Germany until nineteen eighty two, so
Speaker 2: that was a big relief for everyone, not only for
Speaker 2: the Chancellor but of course for all of Germany, and
Speaker 2: when GSG nine returned to Germany the next day, they
Speaker 2: were welcomed as heroes, which they were, but that was
Speaker 2: really out of the ordinary, one must say, because German
Speaker 2: reverence for heroism was strongly discouraged still to this day,
Speaker 2: so we were not big in that and that was
Speaker 2: one of the very few moments that the national pride
Speaker 2: could really yeah, be taken out and everybody could say, well,
Speaker 2: now today I'm proud to be German because these guys
Speaker 2: really did the job.
Speaker 1: And the sort of epilogue to this story is what
Speaker 1: happened with the RAF prisoners who thought they were going
Speaker 1: to get released and what happened to was it a
Speaker 1: shalor the Employers Association leader.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the sad part, because everybody was relieved.
Speaker 2: Everybody was happy that this hostage situation came to a
Speaker 2: happy end, and the next morning the news were full
Speaker 2: of it, of course, and they were extra issues of
Speaker 2: newspapers being printed, and everybody was happy that that was
Speaker 2: the talk of the day, of course, but in the
Speaker 2: afternoon it was clear that this operation had more repercussions,
Speaker 2: and so the news came out that the prisoners of
Speaker 2: the Red Army faction that they had committed suicide in
Speaker 2: their cells. Nobody knows up to this day how they
Speaker 2: got the information really that this operation of GSG nine
Speaker 2: was successful and there was no hope for them to
Speaker 2: be released, but somehow they did it and they were
Speaker 2: able to commit suicide. So that was that. But that
Speaker 2: again meant that the destiny of Hans Martin Schleier was
Speaker 2: also yeah, coming coming to an end. And he was
Speaker 2: found two days later in the trunk of a car
Speaker 2: in close to the border in France, uh and he
Speaker 2: was shot dead because they realized this this game had
Speaker 2: come to an end and they would not get their
Speaker 2: prisoners free. They were dead, so there was no use
Speaker 2: anymore for the for their hostage. So they killed him
Speaker 2: and as I said, put him in a trunk and
Speaker 2: called the local press to tell where to find them.
Speaker 1: One of the other kind of outcomes of this operation
Speaker 1: was you talk a little bit about how it changed
Speaker 1: this sort of hijacking or skyjacking culture, that this was
Speaker 1: the first time it really showed that yes we have
Speaker 1: a countermeasure, yes we can fight back, and aircraft hijackings
Speaker 1: started to drop off quite abruptly.
Speaker 2: That's true, and of course it's the question how much
Speaker 2: of it was contributed by this operation in Mogadishu by
Speaker 2: GSG nine. We can see the security measures in airports
Speaker 2: being ramped up at the same time. It starts before
Speaker 2: the Mogadishu incident, but then really picks up afterwards. So
Speaker 2: the question is, of course, you know, how much did
Speaker 2: that contribute to the to the reduced or to the
Speaker 2: lower numbers and receding numbers of skyjacks afterwards. But it's
Speaker 2: pretty clear that this operation in Mgajishu by the GSG
Speaker 2: nine contributed quite a bit because at this point they
Speaker 2: knew terrorists, knew that there was a force that could
Speaker 2: meet them and could just take them take them out.
Speaker 2: And of course other countries saw that this was a success,
Speaker 2: and of course there were with a lot of interest
Speaker 2: afterwards in the G'SG nine as a force and as
Speaker 2: a teacher as an instruction team for the establishment and
Speaker 2: the inception of other special forces in other countries. So
Speaker 2: within a year there were more than sixty requests from
Speaker 2: sixty different countries asking for advice for training for improvement
Speaker 2: of their own forces that were more or less in
Speaker 2: the phase of being established at the time or for
Speaker 2: the new development of their own GSG nine so to speak.
Speaker 2: And yeah, in my book, I call it it was
Speaker 2: kind of an act of a midwifery that GSG did.
Speaker 2: There for quite a lot of different special forces, be
Speaker 2: they military or police in origin.
Speaker 1: And Charlie back With as he was standing up Delta Force,
Speaker 1: came to learn from them, and you wrote that they
Speaker 1: have I guess it makes sense because they're police officers.
Speaker 1: They have a very tight relationship with the FBI has
Speaker 1: toage Rescue Team.
Speaker 2: Yes, that was very early from the inception of GSG nine.
Speaker 2: They tried to established good connections to the f BI
Speaker 2: and the Hostage Rescue Team and have very good relations
Speaker 2: up to this day. Yeah and yeah. Charlie back With
Speaker 2: he came in nineteen seventy seven, couple of weeks after Muggadishu.
Speaker 2: He came to Germany and he wanted to establish what
Speaker 2: was to become Delta Force. Afterwards, he was still in
Speaker 2: the process of getting the go for his force, and
Speaker 2: so he traveled to the UK because he was a
Speaker 2: former associated formerly associated with the SAS, So he came
Speaker 2: to the UK to learn from them, and then he
Speaker 2: heard from he heard of the GSG nine feet in Mugadishu,
Speaker 2: and he came to Germany to learn from the Germans.
Speaker 2: And shortly after that, German officers, one of them being
Speaker 2: DTA Fox, went to Fort Bragg and while yeah, trained,
Speaker 2: were part of the of the selection process for candidates
Speaker 2: for Delta Force, and also brought a couple of quite
Speaker 2: good German weapons with them to see what maybe Delta
Speaker 2: Falls could make use of them.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and later on they went to the Heckeler
Speaker 1: and Cook MP five, So I guess they sold the Yeah,
Speaker 1: sold some guns. So I'd like to There's a couple
Speaker 1: of chapters you mentioned that didn't make it into the
Speaker 1: English version of your book, but I'd love to ask
Speaker 1: you about it in this interview. In nineteen ninety three
Speaker 1: GSG nine and Germany is still dealing with the RAF
Speaker 1: and there was this, you know, you told me a
Speaker 1: sort of a political crisis in nineteen ninety three in
Speaker 1: the aftermath of a shooting. Can you tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about that?
Speaker 2: Sure? That was yeah, in the in the in the
Speaker 2: years after the German reunification, and so there was this
Speaker 2: little town of bud Klein in eastern Germany and that
Speaker 2: it was the end of a long observation mission that
Speaker 2: GSG nine was not particularly involved, but a lot of
Speaker 2: other crime fighting institutions in Germany, so that was a
Speaker 2: big thing, and they were going after one of the
Speaker 2: two or two of the figureheads of RAF. As we
Speaker 2: have established in nineteen seventy seven, the leading figures of
Speaker 2: RAF committed suicide after Mogadishu, so they are called the
Speaker 2: first generation of RAF. The ones who tried to liberate
Speaker 2: them are called the second generation. And this now was
Speaker 2: the third generation of RAF terrorists that the German state
Speaker 2: was now looking for. So they got ahold of them,
Speaker 2: and they knew that this RAF couple they would be
Speaker 2: in but Kleinen on the central station, well central station
Speaker 2: on the train station of butt Kleinen, very small town
Speaker 2: in eastern Germany, and they wanted to to apprehend them
Speaker 2: there and make sure they get incarcerated, so they called
Speaker 2: in GSG nine. This whole thing went sideways because of
Speaker 2: a lot of different a lot of details that I
Speaker 2: can't go into right now, that's a little bit too
Speaker 2: complicated for such a podcast like this. The whole operation
Speaker 2: went sideways, and in the end, one of the terrorists
Speaker 2: was apprehended and the other one made an escape, went
Speaker 2: up from the underpass where they were supposed to be
Speaker 2: apprehended and he could escape, ran up the stairs to
Speaker 2: the platforms and started shooting while running, turning around shooting,
Speaker 2: and he shot the first GSG nine operative that was
Speaker 2: following him, and that was Michel Nefzella and he was
Speaker 2: killed on that day. So that was a lucky shot
Speaker 2: and he was hit in the heart and he died
Speaker 2: a couple of hours later. And so there was a
Speaker 2: wild shooting. There were like some like something like one
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty shots being fired. You must imagine on
Speaker 2: a Sunday with full platforms, you know, people roaming everywhere.
Speaker 2: A lot of bullets ended up in trains, so there
Speaker 2: was a lot of chaos, a lot of a lot
Speaker 2: of things happened all at once within a couple of seconds,
Speaker 2: and the result was that this terrorist wolf gun coms.
Speaker 2: He was lying with his back on the tracks and
Speaker 2: he was hit by several bullets and one was shot
Speaker 2: to his head, and it soon turned out that he
Speaker 2: had that the bullet that went through his head was
Speaker 2: coming from his own gun. So he killed himself. But
Speaker 2: there were a lot of inconsistencies and a lot of
Speaker 2: in the aftermathth mouth of this whole thing, there was
Speaker 2: a lot of discussion that would soon come up, a
Speaker 2: lot of mistakes that were taking place with the CSI
Speaker 2: operation in the aftermath cleaning the whole thing up. There
Speaker 2: were jackets being cleaned that should shouldn't have been cleaned
Speaker 2: because they had to serve, you know, the the jacket
Speaker 2: of Wolfgangrams And there were like traces on his hands
Speaker 2: that had been wiped off, and a lot of things
Speaker 2: happened which should not happened in the in the aftermath
Speaker 2: of such an operation, particularly when two people die. So
Speaker 2: that was all a pretty big disaster. And soon GSG
Speaker 2: nine came into the suspicion that it was not Wolfgun
Speaker 2: Grams who had committed suicide with his last breath, but
Speaker 2: that one GSG nine operative had taken his gun from
Speaker 2: his hands and had shot him from short distance, so
Speaker 2: execution by the States, and this caused a huge uproar
Speaker 2: and a big, big scandal. All of this evaporated, All
Speaker 2: of this didn't turn out to be true. The GSG
Speaker 2: nine was completely washed off every accusation in the end,
Speaker 2: but only after more than a year. So in the meantime,
Speaker 2: there was a huge political scandal that developed, particularly in
Speaker 2: a situation in Germany and with our historical background, and
Speaker 2: you know, the idea we don't have the capital punishment.
Speaker 2: We you know, it's somebody dying and the suspicion of
Speaker 2: somebody dying by the hand, not in an by the
Speaker 2: hand of a state actor, not in an emergency, but
Speaker 2: after the situation is clear, he is clearly lying on
Speaker 2: the tracks, he's has no possibility to defend himself, and
Speaker 2: then being executed like that, that was a big uproar.
Speaker 2: The suspicion of that was a big, big uproar, and
Speaker 2: that led to the resignation of the Minutes of the Interior.
Speaker 2: It led to the firing of the Attorney General in Germany.
Speaker 2: It led to the firing of the vice president of
Speaker 2: the Bundesqueminalam, the federal Crime Investigation Institution in Germany. So
Speaker 2: you know that it was really an uproar, and it
Speaker 2: was a state crisis, and all connected to the question
Speaker 2: has gs G nine an operative of GSG nine WillFull
Speaker 2: willfullingly and intentionally executed human being, be he terrorist or whatever.
Speaker 2: You know, After the situation is done. That is not
Speaker 2: something that should happen. So there was a big debate
Speaker 2: and it took a very very long time. And yeah,
Speaker 2: Germany G's G nine really came into a very very
Speaker 2: bad situation where even the the end of GG nine
Speaker 2: was being discussed shortly. But that was one of the topics.
Speaker 1: And how did the Red Army faction eventually collapse? Like
Speaker 1: how did that organizations get dismantled?
Speaker 2: Well, I it's I can tell you what actually happened.
Speaker 2: Why it happened is a little bit difficult, and I'm
Speaker 2: not sure if anybody has a good answer to that.
Speaker 2: They became irrelevant. Basically this this after the death of
Speaker 2: one of their head figures, volgan Ms. They didn't really
Speaker 2: commit any any major acts. There was a bombing attack
Speaker 2: against a newly built prison, but that was you know,
Speaker 2: nobody was hurt. It was just the prison wall that
Speaker 2: was a big holding, and that was it. And then
Speaker 2: by nineteen ninety eight they declared their self dissolution. Can
Speaker 2: you say that, I'm not sure. They just wrote one
Speaker 2: of their very famous infamous letters and with a lot
Speaker 2: of left wing anti imperialist rhetoric, pages over pages where
Speaker 2: they didn't declare that anything, that they're sorry for anything.
Speaker 2: They just declared it doesn't make sense to go on
Speaker 2: with armed action with terrorist attacks. Of course they for them,
Speaker 2: it was not terrorist attacks. For them, it was just
Speaker 2: a fight against imperialism. But they said it doesn't make
Speaker 2: any sense anymore, and we tried to find other ways
Speaker 2: to fight against imperialism and the fascists German state. And
Speaker 2: that was that and then never heard from them from
Speaker 2: them again apart from a couple of old r AF
Speaker 2: members who then started their private career with bank robberies
Speaker 2: and other stuff. But I was just, you know, more
Speaker 2: or less just criminals. And this story is going on
Speaker 2: up to today. But the RAF, the Red Army faction
Speaker 2: as a terrorist group has been ended in nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: eight with this letter of resignation, so to speak.
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about GSG nine today.
Speaker 1: You're the opportunity to go and visit them at their
Speaker 1: home base and to interview the commander. Actually it seemed
Speaker 1: like maybe two commanders you got to interview, can tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit about, you know, what the unit
Speaker 1: is like today and what they do.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I actually got to talk to four commanders,
Speaker 2: So the current one Robert Hamelin, which I actually will
Speaker 2: visit tomorrow and talk to him. I will present one
Speaker 2: of my books to him. And so his predecessor was
Speaker 2: Jerome Fouks up to twenty twenty three, he was the
Speaker 2: commander of g's G nine. I talked to his predecessor,
Speaker 2: the predecessor all of Lindna, who is now the president
Speaker 2: of the parent organization of g's G nine, the police
Speaker 2: IIE directs on eleven in Berlin, and I talked to
Speaker 2: one more commander who was commanding g's G nine in
Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties. So yeah, I had the opportunity to
Speaker 2: meet the guys. Also you know the rank and file
Speaker 2: of them, and so it's very interesting there. They're still
Speaker 2: their headquarters. It's still in Zankt Augustine. Augustine is a
Speaker 2: very small town close to Bonn and Bond was the
Speaker 2: Cold War capital of West Germany. So that's how they
Speaker 2: were placed there in a border guard garrison that was
Speaker 2: just came in handy when they were established. They wanted
Speaker 2: to be close to Bond and that was the right
Speaker 2: place to go, and so they have remained there for
Speaker 2: the last fifty years. But of course, after the reunification
Speaker 2: of Berlin, the capital moved from Bond to Berlin, and
Speaker 2: now the action is there. And while in Germany things
Speaker 2: take things take a while sometimes, so the capitol moved
Speaker 2: there in mid of the nineties, and some five six
Speaker 2: years ago there was a dependency. A branch was opened
Speaker 2: up in Berlin of G'SJ nine, so they spread out
Speaker 2: to there. Now g'z G nine is facing new challenges,
Speaker 2: or if the whole of Germany and whole of Europe
Speaker 2: is facing new challenges, and that is to do with
Speaker 2: the war in Ukraine and the Russian threat. So the
Speaker 2: Baltic Sea comes into focus. And just this year they
Speaker 2: have opened up another branch right on the coast of
Speaker 2: the Baltic Sea, so their maritime unit that they always
Speaker 2: had is now permanently situated there. So they have now
Speaker 2: spread from San Augustine here in the middle of Germany
Speaker 2: or West Germany, to the north and to Berlin and
Speaker 2: have spread out to engage with the threats that are
Speaker 2: now occurring there, particularly on the Baltic Sea. That this
Speaker 2: is something that really comes into focus in recent years,
Speaker 2: and that is something that will probably be main focus
Speaker 2: in the next years of GESG nine's situation here.
Speaker 1: I there's I always want to ask you if there's
Speaker 1: anything else you want to talk about before we wrap
Speaker 1: up the interview today, Martin. There's lots of interesting stuff.
Speaker 1: I hope people will go and read the book. There's
Speaker 1: a chapter in here about East Germany's version of GSG
Speaker 1: nine which is pretty interesting.
Speaker 3: Anything else you want to talk about?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 5: There.
Speaker 2: So, as we said, there's there are so many things.
Speaker 2: I mean, one thing that we haven't talked about, talked
Speaker 2: about really in detail and a little bit maybe, is
Speaker 2: that g G nine is a police force, and that
Speaker 2: is something that is really what fascinates me with GSG
Speaker 2: nine because you know, what we have as a police
Speaker 2: force were GG nine is much more limited to the
Speaker 2: to the rules and the laws that are being set
Speaker 2: by the constitution, and the German Constitution is very strict
Speaker 2: indeed in terms of what you can do and what
Speaker 2: you cannot do. So what I find very fascinating is
Speaker 2: how they are able to on the one hand, do
Speaker 2: the job get the job done that they need to do.
Speaker 2: They need to be tough and have to be able
Speaker 2: to also apply lethal force. But on the other hand,
Speaker 2: there are restricted and limited by the German Constitution. And
Speaker 2: so if this goes back again to the German history,
Speaker 2: and we are very cautious to allow lethal force being
Speaker 2: applied in whichever situation there might be. So they are
Speaker 2: very limited options when it's actually justified to apply lethal force.
Speaker 2: And what I find fascinating is how GSG nine has
Speaker 2: managed to bring these two sides together, the being limited
Speaker 2: on the one hand, but then making the best of
Speaker 2: this limitation and and and trying to to act always
Speaker 2: in accordance with the constitution. And that leads to a
Speaker 2: different mindset than special forces in the military might have.
Speaker 2: The mindset is not while we go in and liberate
Speaker 2: the hostages, that too, of course, but we save life.
Speaker 2: Our upper and foremost interest and objective is to save lives,
Speaker 2: even the ones of the terrorists. If the if I
Speaker 2: don't have another option, this this is what the GSG
Speaker 2: nine guys tell me. You know, I can only go
Speaker 2: by what day tell me. But this is very consistent.
Speaker 2: Be it the old veterans or be the ones the
Speaker 2: operatives that are with GG nine today, they very consistently say,
Speaker 2: we have to try to save lives, not because we
Speaker 2: have pity with the terrorists, or because of some sentiment,
Speaker 2: but because we need him for the trial, we need
Speaker 2: to bring him to court, and so that again then
Speaker 2: there is a different mindset which results in different tactics,
Speaker 2: and I find fascinating that this actually works. So their
Speaker 2: whole mindset is we try to avoid using lethal force.
Speaker 2: We try to avoid using our guns. Every operation, be
Speaker 2: just an exercise or an actual operation. If we find
Speaker 2: ourselves in a situation where we have to use our guns,
Speaker 2: if we have to shoot, then afterwards in the debriefing
Speaker 2: we will discuss very intensely what could it we have
Speaker 2: done in order to avoid it. We don't see having
Speaker 2: to use our weaponry a firearms is not a failure,
Speaker 2: but it is something that we need to work on
Speaker 2: so we can avoid it the next time. I find
Speaker 2: that very fascinating because of course this puts you in
Speaker 2: even greater danger if you go in and try to
Speaker 2: liberate a hostage and you have to make this decision
Speaker 2: in this you know microsecond that it is where do
Speaker 2: we put place the bullets? When you talk or yeah,
Speaker 2: when you talk to special forces people of on the
Speaker 2: military side, I hear and I read that it's very
Speaker 2: common to say, okay, we put two bullets in each
Speaker 2: terrorist just to make sure that he will not be
Speaker 2: a problem afterwards. You know, in whatever respect, particularly when
Speaker 2: you do room clearing, for example, and you have to
Speaker 2: go in the next room, you don't want to have
Speaker 2: somebody even half that behind you, so you make sure
Speaker 2: that he will not be able to act. That is
Speaker 2: not the mindset that they have. They really go in
Speaker 2: and try to save lives, even the lives of the
Speaker 2: perpetrator of the terrorist. And if I can add a
Speaker 2: little anecdote that I also write about in my book,
Speaker 2: I also talked to Renadi Bornen, who is the medical
Speaker 2: officer for the operational Medicine department of GSG nine, and
Speaker 2: she was called in to a hostage situation here in
Speaker 2: Cologne at the Central station in Cologne a couple of
Speaker 2: years ago. That was not the GSG nine that was
Speaker 2: operating there, but one of the s IT cars the
Speaker 2: special forces of the province here. So it was a
Speaker 2: hostage situation in a pharmacy and a guy took a
Speaker 2: couple of employees hostage, and the whole thing dragged on
Speaker 2: for a couple of hours and they decided, okay, we
Speaker 2: have to go in and solve this problem by with
Speaker 2: violent means. So they did, and Renaldo Bonnen as the
Speaker 2: medical officer. She afterwards she counted eighteen holes in this
Speaker 2: guy's body entry and exit wounds, but all of them
Speaker 2: in the periphery, in the arms, in the legs, nowhere lethal.
Speaker 2: So when she told me, I asked her, well, yeah, well,
Speaker 2: good luck, and she said good work. And that is
Speaker 2: the spirit that these units work, beat the special Units
Speaker 2: of the Lender or the Special Unit GSG, not at
Speaker 2: GSG nine. They don't aim for the kill. They aimed
Speaker 2: for the saving of lives. I find that very very impressive.
Speaker 2: This guy survived. He had eighteen holes in his body
Speaker 2: where they were not supposed to be, but he survived,
Speaker 2: and that I imagine there was also a little bit
Speaker 2: of luck involved in that. But you know, they were
Speaker 2: not aiming for the kill. They were aiming for the
Speaker 2: saving of the hostages and the saving the life of
Speaker 2: the terrorists.
Speaker 1: It's actually, as far as I know, for our police officers,
Speaker 1: it's actually mandatory if they're going to shoot at a criminal,
Speaker 1: they're shooting center mass, no trick shots allowed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and there's this saying among special forces,
Speaker 2: probably not among special forces a man who deserves being shot,
Speaker 2: deserves being killed. And I can understand from a military
Speaker 2: point of view that this makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: But yeah, and of course from a normal police officer,
Speaker 2: you will not be able to demand that he will
Speaker 2: he will put a shot in the periphery. You know,
Speaker 2: they just don't have the training. How could they do that.
Speaker 2: So they of course are aiming for the safe shot,
Speaker 2: not safe for the perpetrator, that's safe for stopping him.
Speaker 2: So I can understand that. But these guys are trained
Speaker 2: to a point that they actually can make this decision
Speaker 2: and can judge, for the sake of the of the
Speaker 2: hostage and for the sake hopefully of the perpetrator, whether
Speaker 2: to make a lethal shot, to give fire, a lethal
Speaker 2: shot or a non lethal shot. And again I find
Speaker 2: that quite impressive.
Speaker 1: Well, I hope everyone will go out and read the
Speaker 1: book again. It's called GSG nine From Munich to Mangadissue
Speaker 1: The Birth of Germany's counter Terrorism Force. I really enjoyed it,
Speaker 1: got all my notes and underlines in here as I
Speaker 1: read through it. It was really cool because of Martin's background,
Speaker 1: you know, he was able to get access to all
Speaker 1: of these leaders in the unit and all this source
Speaker 1: material in German, and I think you're really seeing it
Speaker 1: in English for the first time. I suspect in this book,
Speaker 1: which definitely makes it worth going and picking up. The
Speaker 1: people who watch this podcast will want to have this
Speaker 1: one in their library for sure.
Speaker 3: Martin.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us this afternoon. I imagine this evening
Speaker 1: for you in Germany.
Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, it's at night right now.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we'll let you get to bed. Appreciate you
Speaker 1: coming on the show and doing this interview, and look
Speaker 1: us up anytime you're in the neighborhood or writing another book.
Speaker 2: I will do so. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: It was great fun talking to you.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, and everyone else out there, we'll
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