Speaker 1: Hey, work, what's going on?
Speaker 2: Hey?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean where we're live on our stream platforms,
and which obviously happened every wage and post recording will
be along on the.
Speaker 4: Website, Yeah, for sure. And today we're talking about masterminds.
Speaker 1: Which.
Speaker 4: May not seem directly DevOps related, but it actually can
be a huge game changer in the success of your career.
But I can just say from personal experience that nine
hundred and ninety nine percent of all masterminds are absolute garbage.
So today we're going to talk about what makes a
good mastermind, how to find one or create your own,
and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, I mean I'm super excited about this actually because
I've tried to being masterminds and i feel like I've
fallen into the ninety nine percent category of my experiences.
So I'm really interested in what you've done well in
this area and what that's actually looked like for sure.
Speaker 4: So let's start with For anyone who may not be
familiar with the concept of a mastermind, I think it
originally started with that book whose title just absolutely disappeared
from my brain this very second. Oh no, no, thinking
go Rich from Napoleon Hill. I think the concept started there,
But the whole idea is to meet with a group
of people that have similar goals, maybe not the same goals,
but have similar goals as you, And the whole idea
is you talk through your ideas, your thoughts, what you've
been working on, and it's the sole responsibility of everyone
in that group to just absolutely call you out on
your bullshit, because most of the time, the reason we
fail to achieve our goals is because we make excuses,
and that's all they are. Like, if you want something
bad enough, there's not going to be an excuse. But
we all fall into those traps of of making excuses
of why we're not going to continue to pursue this goal.
It turned out to be harder than we thought. And
so the objective of the mastermind is to call your
fellow group members out whenever you catch them doing that
and hold them accountable.
Speaker 1: And you have to do the same.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, I really like.
Speaker 3: The idea on a concept. There really is something I
was reading a study not too long ago about even
if we know what to do in an emergency, something
triggers in our brain where we fall back into some
sort of native state and execute the wrong thing, even
though in hindsight we know what the right thing to
do is. Being prepared upfront, we know what the right
thing to do is. So having an outside perspective, being
able to just completely share on every idea that we
have or whatsever most critical to us, it gets a
lot of I think there's a huge strategy of success
behind that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it is. It's hard to do.
Speaker 4: It's hard to be in a good mastermind. But this
is completely off topic, but what you say just made
me think of do you ever get on an airplane
and walk past the exit room and look at the
people in the exit room and go, there's no way
that mfor is going to be able to open that
door if they have to.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm not I'm not particularly known for my good
evaluations like on surface level of people. But I assume
that the flight staff are doing that check. And I
do know that they ask for a verbal que you know,
are you okay doing this, and they have to say yes.
But we do know that even a verbal agreement is
really passive, and you almost want them to repeat what
they're going to do in the event.
Speaker 2: Of an emergency. Because there was a video that I
actually came out not too long.
Speaker 3: Ago from a plane with a fire on it, I believe,
and the passengers were all going back and getting their stuff,
and it took quite a long time for a nice.
Speaker 2: Who actually occurs.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I do think about that unfortunately, So thanks
for reminding me of that fear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my pleasure.
Speaker 4: When I was in the Navy, that was what a
majority of the time we spent just training and rehearsing
for disasters because it was a known fact that when
the disaster happened, you fall down to that primal monkey
mind level, and so to be successful in mitigating the disaster,
it just has to be ingrained muscle memory where no
thought process is required. So we just drilled on it
over and over and over.
Speaker 3: It's really interesting that you bring up the muscle memory
because the Olympic are on and there is this aspect
of you aren't in the moment thinking about how to
execute effectively. You are always going You don't have time
to respond realistically, you just have to memorize exactly the
routine that you're going to do and execute on it.
But talking about your Navy experiences, I'm wondering, did you
have the benefit of some sort of group to prepare
for those circumstances or just regular run of the mill
activities that you have to do, like people that maybe
not necessarily directly in your area that could give you
feedback on But is there a group aspect to that,
you know, thinking about the mastermind topic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, in the military, there is a feedback mechanism, usually
in the form of some senior officers screaming at the
top of their lungs.
Speaker 1: What the hell is wrong with you boy? So feedback
group was definitely incorporated there.
Speaker 2: I have to wonder like, did you were you ever
on the receiving end of that?
Speaker 1: Oh? Many many times?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can tell stories, but they're way off topic
from the mastermind.
Speaker 2: So the group is super important, And like who's in
your group?
Speaker 3: And I feel like there's tons of communities out there
that are like on Slack or discord that you can
join and maybe ask questions about what you're doing or
try to get some feedback, but it doesn't feel like
other people necessarily, Like there may be some generous souls
out there that will review your product or wherever you're at,
your technology stack, your current issue, but they're not that great.
So if we know that ninety nine percent of the
masterminds you know are not fantastic, aren't.
Speaker 2: Able to help us.
Speaker 3: How do we even get into a situation where we
can find people that can provide insight into what we're
working on and give recommendations.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, it's a curated experience, you know, like
a lot of the online mastermind into type communities. It's
the equivalent of posting your question on stack overflow, you know,
best of luck and your answer that you get if
you get one at all. But the thing that makes
a mastermind really successful is curating a personal relationship with
a small group of people over time.
Speaker 1: Because it has to be.
Speaker 4: A small group number one, because we all have limited
mental capacity to retain amounts of information. But you also
you can't form deep, meaningful bonds with a large group
of people.
Speaker 1: So just for that.
Speaker 4: Reason, you want it to be a small group of people.
And then it has to be personal because to be
truly successful in this, like, you're going to be talking
about some stuff that is very uncomfortable at some point
in your career, and you have to have a level
of confidence in the group that you can be open
and honest with that because if you aren't able to
be open and honest. You're not going to disclose all
the relevant factors that they need to help you make
the right decision. And I've been in one group for
it's been ten years now, and it's Yeah, but the
people in that group, like, there's no doubt in my mind,
every single one of us would lie to a grand
jury to protect the others in it. That's how tight
the trust level is in there. And that's the only
reason it's been successful.
Speaker 3: I think it's a good analogy for how close of
a relationship you've formed with these other people. Do you
find it like bi weekly bi monthly when you're meeting
everyone sort of knows where you're at, like what's going,
what's current on in your professional life, And when you
bring up a new idea, they just know where it's
next or is it sharing your current situation and bringing
in concrete questions or stat is in the way they
don't need to sort of pay attention to know everything
about you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little bit of both.
Speaker 4: We meet bi weekly, and the bi weekly meeting is
organized so that each individual has a certain a fixed
amount of time and a certain list of things that
you have to communicate, you know, it's almost like a
like a gram type or agile type meeting. Here's what
I've been working on, Here's what I'm planning on doing next,
Here's where I'm having problems.
Speaker 1: But then there's also we have a private chat.
Speaker 4: Channel that we use so that we post messages in
between those and do longer form conversations in there. And
then there's also a third option there if something happens
in your life that you either need immediate feedback or
you need more time than what's allowed in the bi
weekly meetings, will do ad hoc meetings specific to that topic.
Speaker 2: Is there just for contexts?
Speaker 3: Would you be willing to share maybe one of your
recent either realizations or what you were what we had
brought up in the meeting, just as far, you know,
for people that maybe haven't been in a Mastermind before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4: The range of topics is not solely focused on careers.
A lot of it has been you know, hey, I'm
thinking about taking this new job, I'm struggling with this
at work, thinking about launching this new business. What do
you guys think about it? But it's been personal stuff too,
like whenever, whenever my mom passed away earlier this year.
You know, I was I made a lot of bad
decisions after that and fell off the train, and they
were are super helpful and instrumental in calling me out
and getting me back on track. Some of the members
there have been through divorces and those were extensive topics
with getting that done.
Speaker 3: Wow, I mean it sounds you know, it sounds like
it's more than just the ideas having a dedicated support network,
not just like I know people talk about it, you know,
how do I deal with certain personal situations?
Speaker 2: Where do I go? Who can I talk about that?
But actually having gone.
Speaker 3: Out and found the appropriate group, you know, we're calling
them a mastermind group, but you know, by any name,
really having a dedicated a team of people to support
each other, Like I can see how valuable that is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4: I think that's probably one of the big misconceptions around
masterminds as we think it's career or business oriented, and
it is because that consumes a large part of our life.
But you know, if you're dealing with the passing of
a family member or a divorce or something in your
personal life, that's going to affect your professional life as well.
Speaker 1: So it's in scope.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I totally totally got that. I feel like,
you know, maybe you skipped over this. It's so it
must be so difficult to have found this group of
people that you've been with for ten years now, How
did that even come to exist?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I responded to a tweet.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 4: One of the one of my friends sent out a
Actually this is how we met. He sent out a
tweet and said, hey, I'm thinking about starting a mastermind.
Anyone who's interested let me know. And I had read,
you know, Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich and was
familiar with the concept and had tried at that point
a couple of online masterminds, and.
Speaker 1: I tried like some.
Speaker 4: Subscription based mastermind groups where you actually pay to be
in there. Pro tip don't ever do that, I know, right,
And so I was like, yeah, we'll try it, you know.
Speaker 1: And it really was.
Speaker 4: Awkward at first, you know, and it was very at first.
It was you know, totally focused on things that you
would only say in public, like you know, oh, here's
what I'm working on at work, or hey, I'm thinking
about launching this product, you know, and things like that.
But then as we as we got to know each
other better and became closer over the years. That's whenever
things really started to take this whole group to a
next level and make it something that I just can't
imagine being at this stage in my life without that group.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I know.
Speaker 3: Now it's actually become a more common topic to find
your job. Group I think is now a thing if
you're searching for a career and some other people are too,
you can bounce ideas off of them and it's more
focused in that way.
Speaker 2: But I feel like it's sort of.
Speaker 3: Limited and people aren't changing their careers or their jobs
so frequently, so having the context already of where you're
at can be I think super helpful there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, Like the long term, being with the
same group for a long time is helpful because just
to use myself as an example, like, they know I
will jump on a shiny object and chase it all
day long and then drop it and walk away from it,
and so they're great. Whenever I come up with something,
they're like, nah, dude, we've seen this before. We know
exactly where this is going. Go back to what you're
supposed to be doing and quit fucking around.
Speaker 3: I think we have a new alias for you for
the coming episodes. It will be Will Colden Retriever button.
Speaker 2: Right, a ball, you get a ball. I just read this.
Speaker 3: Actually he mentioned it Napoleon Hill in Think and Grow,
but I don't know if this is true. Google says
it was originally coin in the Law of Success, which
is I mean more so. There's lots of books dedicated
to this topic realistically, and I think, well, we see
them in some sort of form. I think in the
professional world we even see things like guilds that pop up,
or mentorship groups or you know, a buddy system or whatever.
But I feel like really having an intentional aspect behind
it is something so totally lost. I probably worked in
tech for ten years before this concept even came up
to me as something that could be done, and that
is really surprising.
Speaker 2: Honestly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think about that a lot as I get older.
Well not I am old, let's just be realistic on that.
But anyway, like, I feel like somewhere in the last
few generations, we lost a skill set as humans that
we had for tens of thousands of years. You know,
of sitting around the campfire with the trialible elders, you know,
teaching the younger people in the group what they learned
and how to avoid those mistakes. And I feel like
somewhere in the last couple of generations we've lost that.
And I think that's where the mastermind is helpful, as
it's trying to like reconnect that storytelling and close knit
group process.
Speaker 2: That's interesting.
Speaker 3: So there's a psychological or sociological impact from our own
evolution that actually drives the success of this sort of.
Speaker 2: Group collaboration that by nature we're not focused in.
Speaker 3: Because I mean, I think you're right, because there's also
something at the family level. I mean, certain culture is
obviously focused more on that than others.
Speaker 2: Being an American and.
Speaker 3: I believe you are too, I know that's super underplayed.
I feel like depending on where your roots are from,
I don't discusslenging even business problems with my immediate family
is not the sort of thing. And if I was
looking for a new job, I can't really ask them.
I mean, they may have some high level feedback, but
like what my industry is like was never something that
they would be able to really understand.
Speaker 2: I remember when I was in high school, my brother.
Speaker 3: Would ask me frequently, does that make a lot of money,
and I know after many years that that's not the
thing he cares about. But it's very hard to describe
your situation to someone that is in a completely different
field with completely different challenges. So finding those people that
you can actually work with on an ongoing way is
I feel like huge can be a huge win.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4: Like I think the quality of advice is directly proportional to.
Speaker 1: The context that the person giving.
Speaker 4: That advice has, you know, like, I'm not going to
go ask my family doctor whether he thinks that terror
form is just completely out the door because of their
changes to their open source licensing model.
Speaker 2: I mean now, and I wonder, you know, it could
be a secret terror form lover.
Speaker 3: That you're missing out on that opportunity. Really, you know,
maybe he's been thinking about leaving medicine and going over
to software technology for the last ten years and never
really got that opportunity and need someone to you know,
push them.
Speaker 1: In that direction, right, can't rule it out, you know.
Speaker 3: The thing I'm thinking about is, since it's so late
in our careers, that at least for me to learn
about this, Like, why is it this way?
Speaker 2: You mentioned that we may.
Speaker 3: Have lost in the last few generations as a society.
But I'm like looking at the education system even all
the way through university, Like you're very focused on as
an individual you solve problems, especially in academia, right, you
know there's concrete questions with definitive objective answers or at
least a grading system in place. And I remember some
of my high school teachers would say to certain study
group clicks, you won't get accepted to a university as
a team. You go as individuals, and you won't get
hired as a team to jobs. I feel like from
working professionally for a lot of years and also thinking
about masterminds and how groups and our networks can help
us in our individual careers specific problems professionally personally, it
just seems like that's wrong advice, Like realistically learning how
to operate as a team in some capacity not necessarily
tied to your job seems like a huge miss for
our education systems across.
Speaker 1: The world, Oh for sure.
Speaker 4: Like I've spent a majority of my career in early
stage tech startups, and it's a thing one hundred percent.
You know you'll have the founder who starts the company
and then they hire a tech person and oh, we
need another tech person. Well, guess where that hire is
coming from, somebody that the first tech guy knows. And
even at the advisory level, you know, oh, we need
an advisor on the board who has financial experience with
SaaS based applications. Oh, hey, my buddy does that? Oh
your buddy, how convenient? You know, because it's because and
I don't think that's a bad thing. It's a limiting
thing for sure, because unless your buddies with someone your
your options are limited.
Speaker 1: But it is I think it is a good.
Speaker 4: Thing for bringing in known expertise to help you succeed.
Speaker 3: I mean, there is there is a just recently, I
think we've learned of concerning bias where obviously you you're
in network is people who are similar to you, and
who you hire through interview process, of course, is bias
towards similar thinking. But yeah, I mean the startups obviously
go the route you're pulling people from your network can't
be helped there and you would just be at a
loss without that. You do need someone to fill that spot,
and it's so much easier to evaluate someone you know
than random people from the Internet, of which ninety nine
percent of them are resumes that were completed by AI bought.
Speaker 4: Now right, can you imagine what you would have to
go through if you posted a job ad for like
a CTO or an advisory board member on indeed dot com?
Speaker 3: You know, I don't actually have to imagine. So one
of the groups I'm in actually talks about this some
of the challenges where they have a new position open,
even at the executive level, and how to find people.
Speaker 2: And obviously the challenge is.
Speaker 3: The higher up you go, the more concern you are
that they're able to maybe be effective in that role,
and so you may be more likely to pull from
your network, which is incredibly limiting. So focusing on having
the appropriate network is critical for success. But even at
the lead engineer, architectural level, engineering manager, et cetera, you
have a spot open and you'll have thousands of resumes
coming in for people that are, according to the resume,
are qualified. And that's a non trivial problem to solve.
There's some there's some statistical models that say the thirty
seven percent rule is what applies?
Speaker 1: What's the thirty seven percent rule?
Speaker 3: Ah, So, like the most random number that exists is
the number thirty seven, people believe.
Speaker 2: People believe that.
Speaker 3: The numbers, like the numbers three and seven are the
most random because they're not five, which is the middle
and even fields not random. One is first, you know
zeros out nine is and so the numbers thirty seven
and seventy three tend to be random. And it actually
turns out that thirty seven is like part of the
golden ratio there, it's part of the derivation. And if
we're hiring something, it's called the I think it's called
the marriage problem, hiring problem, et cetera. How do I
know when to actually hire someone? And the strategy goes
that interview thirty seven percent of your pool that you
want for some pool size, and after the thirty seven percent,
don't hire any of those people, but use them as
the strategy for knowing where your bar is, what sort
of quality of engineers are getting in hire the next
best one that's better than all the rest of the
pool that you've sampled. And that's so you know, if
you say I want to go through one hundred applicants,
even tho if I have a thousand or ten thousand,
go through the first thirty seven and then starting with
a thirty eighth one, hire the first one that's better
than all the other thirty seven you've hired, And that's
that's the strategy.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Seems like a lot of work, but hiring
is a lot of work anyway. So we're going to
be nice to pull from your network, right Yeah.
Speaker 4: Speaking of which, I I think that's a really important
precursor to finding or creating a mastermind group that works
for you, is like, how do you connect with those people?
And you have to you have to know people, which
means building your network. And I know, for me, for
a long time, I was not a fan of the
word network because it sounded all salesy and smoozy and
you know, it was going to have to make small
talk with Bill and Ted on the back nine, you know,
or whatever, and.
Speaker 1: So I had a really negative perception of network. But
I don't think it's that way at all.
Speaker 4: I think it could also be synonymous with your your
work buddies or you know, you're even your gaming buddies.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: No, I'm totally with you.
Speaker 3: I I always shutter when I hear the word networking
as a thing that you can do. I'm definitely in
by nature and so that doesn't come to me naturally.
That just you'll have some a Pao after party or
something and you can go and talk to people. So
if that works for you, you know, it's a great
way to start building a network. I found I need
to have some sort of strategy that works to actually start.
Speaker 2: So if I'm at a conference.
Speaker 3: I will go and specifically talk to the vendors. I
find that it's much easier for me to do that,
and I have real questions about how they're finding the conference,
whether or not it's affective for them, what they're doing there,
what they hope to gain out of it. And I
try to build my network that way because I may
actually need to get back in touch with one of
them for a product that I want.
Speaker 2: So that's where I start.
Speaker 4: Yeah, an approach I used that I kind of liked
was actually giving talks at conferences, you know, applying for conferences,
filling out the paper. And the reason I like that
is because then I'm not going to the conference to network.
I'm going because I have to give a talk there.
And then I give my talk, which introduces me to
a lot of people, and for the rest of the conference,
you'll actually meet people and they'll be asking you a
question about something you said in your talk or something
related to your talk. So now I'm not meeting strangers
and having to make small talk or figure out what
to say next, or stand there awkwardly staring at my shoes.
There's an automatic conversation starter there, and that's been super
helpful for me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you're talking super controversial, you can post
it on LinkedIn and have people you know coming up
to you and say, hey, well, you know I disagree
with everything.
Speaker 2: That used that right.
Speaker 1: As you should, because I'm just making this up.
Speaker 3: I mean, realistically, I think there is this aspect of Oh,
conference speaking is so difficult.
Speaker 2: It's such a challenge.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't want to have to do all
this work, or I'm afraid of conference speaking, or I'm
not far enough of my career or experience. I think
almost everyone out there, after about two years professional work,
has done something unique that almost no one else has
done before, in that exact way that you were.
Speaker 2: Now qualified to talk about.
Speaker 3: And if you want to get accepted to conferences, you
just think about what you care about, and I bet
you can come up with a thirty minute talk which
discussed that and teaches people about that subject. And I
remember standing up at a conference and giving a talk
on security and.
Speaker 2: Someone's like, how did you be?
Speaker 3: Like, how do I become a security expert like you
and you know, can give talks.
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, you know, I didn't really.
Speaker 3: Consider myself a security expert, but here I am standing
up on stage giving a talk about this.
Speaker 2: You know, you start doing something over and over.
Speaker 3: Again, and eventually someone may be like, you know, hey,
I want you to speak at our conference.
Speaker 2: So I think it's actually if that's the strategy that
could work for you.
Speaker 3: I think really having that justification for where to go
what to speak about, is for sure really helpful to
expend your network.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think there's a hidden benefit there as well too,
because everyone gets nervous giving a talk, and it's natural
you're putting yourself out there. But I think it's something
that you have to force yourself to get through. You
may not get over it, but you will get through it.
And it's a precursor to having more difficult conversations at
some future point in your life, because if you're no
matter what your life looks like, you're going to have
awkward difficult moments and doing something like speaking at a
conference where there's literally no way to fail. But you
get through that mental obstacle, it's going to help you
build that muscle memory to have future conversations about difficult
topics where there is a meaningful impact to not having
that conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's really not a lot different than sitting
in a room with six people and discussing some sort
of architecture or a tool choice. Like when I'm standing
up there and giving a talk, there's just the six
people in the front row. It's hard to pay attention
more than that. The lights are blinding your eyes anyway,
So it's not really like there's a lot of people.
And there's usually a lot less people than are listening
to this podcast. So as far as nerves go, that's
not really super relevant.
Speaker 4: You usually get through it, Yeah, for sure, and it's
something you'll just get accustomed to over time.
Speaker 2: Do you remember how you got started speaking of conferences?
Speaker 1: No? Absolutely, no idea?
Speaker 2: Are you do you still get up on stage and
get nervous sometimes?
Speaker 4: I get nervous every time, Yeah, every single time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is it noticeable to me? It is?
Speaker 4: But I think That's an important component of it because,
like to me, the way I look at at a
conference and I view meetings the exact same way. In
our industry, we can say that the value of a
person is one hundred bucks an hour, you know, just
pretty much across the board around the world, tech labor
is one hundred bucks an hour. So if I'm speaking
to ten people for an hour, that's a thousand dollars investment.
So if I'm speaking to you know, one hundred people
at one hundred dollars an hour, that's a significant amount
of money. And so I put that pressure on myself,
like how am I going to deliver one hundred thousand
dollars of value to these people? And that's the way
I approach giving my talks. So yeah, I am nervous
whenever I grow up and I have to deliver one
hundred thousand dollars of value in one hour.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: I mean if I was thinking about it like that,
I don't know if I would be confident getting up
on stage. Ie just scared some people away with that mentality,
you know. I think I think having something you're passionate
about is relevant, and your passion actually helps other people
is how I look at it. So when I'm giving
a talk, it's usually from a place of like, I
really want to rant about something, Like I hear people
doing something ridiculously in a weird way that I just
would never personally approve of.
Speaker 2: Why do I not approve of it?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Why do I think that way?
Speaker 3: And then I evaluate that I'm like, Okay, I can
actually say something about this topic, whether or not it's
the expert advice or anything, and it's just another idea
that I'm throwing out there and trying to make a
little bit entertaining for a group of five to a
thousand people at a time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. And then you know, the way that comes back.
Speaker 4: Is in you meet people. People will give you feedback
on it. Some of those will turn into relationships, and
then those relation relationships will help you form either form
a mastermind or join a mastermind they may already be
part of, or whatever group name you want to call it.
You know, the name mastermind, I think is just a
easy term to describe what the goals of this group is.
But you can actually call it an anything you want,
and there's probably other names for it out there that
I'm just not familiar with.
Speaker 3: I mean, I really wish I had support for some
of the challenging decisions that I had to make earlier
on in my career, Like what is even the difference
between these different jobs? How do I negotiate a salary?
But it you know, it keeps on going more than that, Like,
I don't know when I'm trying to solve a challenging
technical problem, who I can necessarily turn to. And I
can obviously ask random questions on the internet, but I
don't necessarily feel like other people are super invested in
making sure I have the best answer that I couldn't.
I wish someone had said to me early on in
my career, you need to find your group where you
can start asking these questions too, that are comfortable and
invested in actually giving you relevant answers. Because it's also
a great way for you to find out what other
people are doing. What is it like in other companies?
How are they working on things that could be relevant
in helping you figure out what you want to do
next to your career or challenging tech problem.
Speaker 1: You've got, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I only realized in the
last few years was that I actually had mentors my
entire career. I just didn't know what a mentor was.
You know, I grew up in rural Texas in the seventies,
and I can guarantee nobody.
Speaker 1: Used the word mentor there.
Speaker 4: So I was probably in my thirties before I ever
heard the word and had a definition for it. But
in retrospect, looking back, there were a lot of people
who were mentors in my life that I just didn't
realize that that's what they were doing.
Speaker 1: And so I think I would.
Speaker 4: Encourage anyone listening to do that same retrospective exercise. You know,
who was it in your past that's been trying to
tell you what to do, whether you were receptive to
the way that they communicated that or not. You know,
things specifically back to some of my senior officers in
the military, they were.
Speaker 1: You know, they didn't have the greatest.
Speaker 4: Social skills, but they were trying to do the right thing.
And so that's something to reflect on. Hey, the delivery
of the message was wrong, but the message itself was accurate,
you know, and that can help you identify the people
who have been trying to help you in the past.
Speaker 1: That may help you.
Speaker 4: Narrow the list of people of how to reach out of,
who to reach out to for questions about your future.
Speaker 3: I mean the dedicated group, thinking of them as all
sort of peer mentors on whatever act see there have
experience on right, you know, whether because we're all have
different careers in some way, you know, we didn't all
go to the same schools and get the same jobs
at the same companies, that varied experience can be really
helpful there. And you mentioned this to me actually offline
a while back, And so I went through this little exercise,
and I realized that my version of mentors out there
were people at every job that I felt comfortable asking
a lot of questions too, no matter what I thought
the question like, it was never like Okay, you know,
this is a stupid question. I'm afraid of having you
answer it. But like I was always trying to get
more understanding of what I was working on, like who
I could go and actually ask stuff to. And the
more questions I asked of these couple of individuals, the
more comfortable I felt asking sort of maybe non directly
professional related or work related questions, you know, things about salary,
et cetera, and then eventually about my career and maybe
personal life as well, and I never really considered those mentors,
but looking back, it does really feel like if I
had to coin that term for something, it would be
people that I'm comfortable asking questions to and being told
answers that I could then go execute effectively.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, and that that process of asking questions
is another one of those areas where it's uncomfortable at first,
but with practice, it gets easier over time, and just
like any skill, you become more advanced with it over time.
Speaker 1: So at first, you know, you may.
Speaker 4: Be only comfortable asking one or two people very limited questions,
but over time you'll get better at that, and then
you'll get a little more courageous, and then pretty soon
you know you're posting on stack overflow, whose stupid idea
is JavaScript anyway or whatever?
Speaker 3: He's got a personal vendetta there against the creators.
Speaker 1: No, not really.
Speaker 4: I love to make fun of javascrouped, but it has
done a lot of great things for our industry.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think a lot of it was
like an accident, the creation like one week thing to
in the browser, and now it's something way more than.
Speaker 4: That, right, It was a it was an emergency patch
to resolve an issue in thirty years later.
Speaker 1: Sure we are.
Speaker 3: I mean I feel like that's actually what happens with
a lot of companies in their software that they're making right.
You know, things don't die that quickly in some circumstances,
and whatever work you've done can end up as that
critical component in your company software. And you know, I
for sure want to have someone sort of evaluating the
work then I've done. And maybe I don't have that
peer in my current company that I can actually go to,
and so I need to go out and the world
unfortunately and try to find someone. And I just have
to say, as like, being an engineer doing anything like
this is super uncomfortable, Like at no part and earlier
on would I feel like, oh, yeah, no, I just
want to go do this, Like if someone told me
to go do this, I would definitely not at least
I would have been told. But I just it's just
such a struggle, Like you say, responding to someone on
a Twitter after posting a message like that was not
okay for me, Like that was definitely something I didn't
want to do and looking back, yeah, like just do
it anyway.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, I think that's a really good point
to elaborate on.
Speaker 1: Is why bother doing this? Like why you know I.
Speaker 4: Started off this episode saying it can be I can't
remember the exact words I use it. It can be
a game changer for your career or something like that,
which is just like a bullshit term.
Speaker 1: You can't actually measure that at all. So let's talk
about specific.
Speaker 4: Measurable benefits to taking the time to curate your own
personal mastermind group. Just using myself as an example, I
directly attribute my mastermind group to the success of where
I'm at now, and I measure the success of where
I am now as having spent three decades in early
stage tech startups, where I have to keep my technical
skill set above average for three decades. I feel like
that's a pretty significant accomplishment working in tech startups. There's
various metrics floating around, but an overwhelming majority of tech
startups fail. But I've been doing it successfully for this long.
Not all of the ones I've worked with have succeeded,
but enough of them have. Where like five years ago, oh,
I just didn't have to work anymore, and I do
at this point because I really enjoy my trade and
because I suck at golf. Butte I attribute that to
having deep conversations with the people in my mastermind and
them calling me out and helping me think through.
Speaker 1: Decisions that led to this.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think some of those those are some
of the big wins for me of belonging.
Speaker 2: To this group.
Speaker 3: There's something really interesting thing that you said there when
we call it like our network. So I'm not going
to spoil my pick at the end of the episode,
but there is something about your success is definitely determined
by who your network is, more than what you're working
on or the promise of success there being able to
share getting someone else to even use your product, or
them knowing someone who could be your customer. That feedback
on it is actually more attributed to success by your network,
what your network looks like, than it is by any
individual thing. When we say that all startups fail, some
of them get lucky, that luck is really the result
of knowing the right people, and by knowing the right people, Well,
how did you get there? One way is through starting
out trying to find your group that can provide insight
but also potential customers, etc.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think another potential misconception is that you
have to join a network with already successful people, and
I don't think that's true. Just I think it's more
important to join or start a group with people you're
comfortable with, and then you'll all grow over time, you'll
all get better and help each other, which is going
to help each of you, and then it's like a
compound interest type effect. So you don't have to join
a mastermind group with Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos.
Speaker 1: You can start with the people you know.
Speaker 2: I mean you actually shouldn't.
Speaker 3: So the research says that it's really interesting about who
gets Nobel Prizes and how they detail them. And you'll
find that the earliest papers by Nobel Prize award winners
is that they're not the first one listed on the
revolutionary work that they're being awarded the prize for.
Speaker 2: And I think.
Speaker 3: It's really interesting, like your name is not first on
that thing that you want to so why isn't it first?
And it turns out because often they were a part
of the project, but then the rest of their career
was still dedicated to that same idea and they wrote
more and more papers on the topic, and eventually over time,
they were seen as the cornerstone of success of the
innovation that happened there, and so the original work may
not have been by them, but it now is so
totally attributed.
Speaker 2: And if you are in a.
Speaker 3: Group where there are two other people who or one
other person that's well known in any way, then whatever
success comes out of that will be actually attributed to
that person who's already been identified as the leader in
that area.
Speaker 2: So you like, you won't get success.
Speaker 3: You'll get some betup that, right, you know, maybe more money,
more opportunities, but it will never be your own fame
fortune whatever you're going for our personal enlightenment. If you
are joining groups just because you see high profile names there, realistically.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I think another.
Speaker 4: Similar continuation of that thought process is when you're talking
about Nobel Prizes.
Speaker 1: I find it fascinating to look.
Speaker 4: Back one hundred two hundred years ago at the era
of scientific discovery. Then you know, not only with people
like Albert ein Stein and the work that.
Speaker 1: He did, but the group that he was part of.
Speaker 4: You know, there's like pictures of him where he's standing
next to like Neil's War, you know, and these other
amazing physicists, and they were just all writing letters to
each other, even to the point where whenever Einstein released
his theory of relativity, you know, he published a paper
some I think it was a German physicist who was
on the front line during World War Two, plotting the
trajectory for missiles to launch at Russia. On holding the
line during the war, he had time to stop and
read Einstein's Theory of relativity and then came up with
his own solution to prove the parts of it that
Einstein didn't know how to prove, and then mailed a
letter back to Albert Einstein saying, hey, here's the missing
piece for you, you know, all while getting bombed on
the front line during World War One. And like, to me,
that was like that was inspiring because it's like my excuses.
Speaker 1: Are no longer valid.
Speaker 4: You know, I am not reading Albert Einstein's Theory of
Relativity by candlelight while getting bombed on the trenches of
World War One.
Speaker 1: I don't have an excuse for not being successful.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's with the Scotch in hand, that's right.
Speaker 3: It's not a very long amount of work, Like it's
a very thin book. That's dedicated to relativity, so you know,
you kind of get through it really quickly. No, I
mean I actually found the collaboration between scientists to always
be a very interesting topic of discussion, and I feel
like something that gave a lot of color to it
is if you've seen the movie Oppenheimer, there is a
scientists basically collaborating and what that actually looked like. And
I mean, obviously is it super accurate, but it does
add some flavor there of like not necessarily experts that
are all experts in the same area, like there have
different specialties that are all collaborating together in some way.
Now it does seem professional in nature, but there is
definitely an academia. You're passing back new ideas and if
this is something that's interesting. There's actually a video from Veritassium,
which is a YouTube channel that talks about math problem wars,
like wars between mathematicians where apparently in the eighteenth century
and earlier, you could have your position revoked from an
institution if another mathematician challenged you to a math duel
and gave you questions couldn't answer, then you would get
their position.
Speaker 1: That's the ultimate in nerdory right there.
Speaker 3: Sorry, you know, I really appreciate this stuff, but you
know there's something interesting.
Speaker 2: I mean literally, you know how you figured stuff out?
Speaker 3: Was one intellectual in academia writing to another one totally
unknown or their descendants or disciples. You know, hey, they
were working on this problem. What does that look like?
Do you have any ideas? The same still holds true today,
and I feel like the Mastermind group really combines it together.
Speaker 2: And I have this problem, like I don't.
Speaker 3: Know event buses was sending messages in some sort of
network that things can be down.
Speaker 2: How do I even do that correctly?
Speaker 3: How do I come up with the strategy of raft
or whatever Bitcoin uses for consensus.
Speaker 2: And go to town? Like that's not one person envisioning everything.
Speaker 1: I'm stuck on the whole math dual thing.
Speaker 3: Fantastically, the episode was actually about discovering.
Speaker 2: Third degree differential equations.
Speaker 3: So like first degree and second degree have close form solutions,
but if you have a third degree differential, then how
do you how do you get the route the actual
equation that comes out of it? And some people are like, oh,
that's impossible, there's no solution there, and others will say, well,
you know, you can actually solve it for some situations like, well,
if the equation looks like this, then we can come
up with an answer, and so they start eliminating whole
sets of problems. And so at the time, the duel
was like, I can figure out solutions to these problems,
but you can't. And then they always get surprised when
the mathematician others had had to invent new calculus in
order to solve those problems. And then the world you know,
went further, and of course keeping it a secret of
how you solve these equations became a thing where I
don't think secrets went out today anymore.
Speaker 4: No, But I'm just picturing like a bunch of women
like in a nineteen eighties era Michael Jackson concert, and
then the math nerds solves his differential equation in the
women then just start fainting and the bouncers are carrying
them out at this math duel pretty much figuring that's
how this went down.
Speaker 3: Like on stage, I honestly don't know what those specifics were.
I mean, I assume they were in their offices, you know,
because they weren't near each other.
Speaker 4: No, this was a really out event. They were like
screaming fans. There were groupies, bouncers.
Speaker 3: He wants to say, this is the eighteen eighteen, seventeen,
sixteenth century version of like hacker duels and you know,
cracking software run by governments.
Speaker 4: This was like a Leonard skinnerd playing at bike week
type event.
Speaker 1: Sorry I'm taking this off topic.
Speaker 3: Yeah no, Actually there's something that we didn't really talk about,
and it's something that's been going on in my mind recently,
and that's the idea of sponsorship more than mentorship.
Speaker 2: And are you familiar with that?
Speaker 1: So Nope, not at all.
Speaker 3: So this is idea floating around that just having people
give you feedback isn't necessarily enough.
Speaker 2: You need people to sort of go and vouch for you.
Speaker 3: And so within your company, if you want to get promoted,
having someone to actually say, not just here's how you
get promoted, but oh, you know, at the next promotion round,
I will speak.
Speaker 2: On your behalf. I'm actually helping you specifically.
Speaker 3: And I don't think enough people take like are comfortable,
you know, I think it's definitely cultural dependent, but comfortable
enough to take the opportunity to actually ask someone to
not just take the first steps, but recommend them or
really help them actually succeed.
Speaker 4: Ah, that's interesting because I've had this idea for a
couple of years now. Then my initial thought process behind
it was the difficulty in finding qualified people to hire. Yeah,
and it goes back to when I was in the military,
Like I was a nuclear engineer in the Navy, and
to be qualified to operate the nuclear power plant. When
you got to your ship, that gave you this big
book and it had all these lists of tasks that
you had to know how to do. And so you
would run around the engine room asking people, hey, will
you watch me do this task, and you would do
the task, and if you did it right, you know,
and they felt comfortable with you, they would sign that
line in your book. And when everything was all signed,
you were qualified to operate the power plant.
Speaker 1: And then.
Speaker 4: The reason that's tied to sponsorship is because if at
any point in the future you screwed up doing that task,
they would look at your book and see who signed
off on it, and that person is partially accountable for
the damage that you caused, or you know, the partially
owned that mistake. And I thought we could translate this
to the tech career, you know, just to take like
JavaScript for an example. You know, I'm not going to
pick on JavaScript this time. I'm going to say, like,
you know, you've got a list of things that are
related to JavaScript, like writing an asincle weight function, you know,
writing a callback or whatever. And so I could go
to you and say, hey, will you check this asinkle
weight function that I wrote, and you look it over,
I'm like, yeah, that's right, and then you sign off
that I know how to do that task. And so
then whenever as an employer, when I'm looking for someone,
I just list the tasks that I need and I
find someone who has all those skills, and I can
validate or see like who who signed off on that,
and who signed off on it for that person above them.
And so there's this whole accountability thing where now it's
not just me saying I know how to do a
sinkle weight functions. I can prove that someone else has
said I know how to do a sinkle weight functions.
Speaker 3: That's certainly the sort of thing that may be impossible
to actually hold anyone accountable for.
Speaker 4: No there I think it is because there's a there's
another component to it that's a feedback mechanism. So if
if you sign off that I know how to do
a sink a weight, someone else working with me who
has that skill looks at my asincle weight function and says,
there's no way this guy knows what he's doing. So
they dispute it and it gets revoked. But then that
also passes back up to the person who signed off
on it. So if you're just out there just blind
signing a bunch of people for skills, then it's gonna
eventually come back to where you no longer had the
ability to sign off on a skill, because that's that's
another component of it is if you're going to sign
off on a sink a weight for me, someone has
to have signed off on a sink a weight for you.
Speaker 2: I mean, I totally get it.
Speaker 3: Working in any sort of military branch or public office,
it just you know, in the tech industry, there's a
short timeline for people working at the same job and whatnot,
and I don't think people are often held accountable as
much as they should be, or realistically beneficial for the
business as we want them to be, because there's a
lot of architectures that we fall into, you know, that
were there when we got there.
Speaker 2: And you're like, who signed off on this? You would
be really curious to know, you.
Speaker 3: Know, maybe there's a product here, you know, trace your
you know your your work that you've done.
Speaker 2: Say that sort of a network. And I think LinkedIn
tried this with.
Speaker 3: Giving thumbs up on people for recommendations for different technologies
that they've got, but.
Speaker 2: That's yeah, I didn't really get anywhere. I feel like, no.
Speaker 4: I think the reason that that failed is because anyone
could any endorse anyone for anything. Like I had a
ton of recruiters that endorsed me for skills that I
know for a fact they have no idea whether or
not I could do those those things, And so I
think that was a failure there is because the endorsement
was meaningless because you didn't know, like who's endorse in
this person?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they want that so that they can
sell your resume to a company and get paid, right
so for sure? Yeah, yeah, I mean I know we
try to do this to the micro level with pull
requests and feedback through there, right, you know, at least
the second person in the moment who supposedly knows that,
But that's very specific and doesn't really get at a
cross of that you've learned the skill someone has taught you,
you understand it. There seems like an opportunity there in
ed tech going forward. It's I'd be really interesting if
we got that to become a thing.
Speaker 2: It's fun to merit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a lot of it's a lot of work,
you know, like the it's a lot of work for
the people, the senior people to mentor the junior people
who are coming in to take over their jobs. And
I think that's something we don't spend enough time and
effort on. I think our industry is moving so fast
currently that we can sort of wave that off because
by the time the junior people are taking our positions,
the job that I was doing is kind of obsolete anyway. Yeah,
but I don't know that we can count on that
being true going forward.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the future is unknown right right for sure.
Speaker 2: So I feel like we talked.
Speaker 3: A lot about in and around Mastermind groups and your experiences.
I feel like you've got a wealth here that we
haven't really dove into though. I'm just curious if there's
anything specific that you wish you had shared, you know, unprompted.
Speaker 1: Share it in my group.
Speaker 3: No, I mean you know what if people need to
know about masterminds, Oh yeah, like today, you know, I
guess they go and find one, But you know, maybe
there's something else.
Speaker 1: I think I think there is.
Speaker 4: You know, assuming that you're the type of person who
has career goals and you have certain things that you
want to achieve in your career, regardless of what they are,
you're going to need help to get there. If you
try to do it alone, it's going to take exponentially
longer to do it. So find those people or curate
those people that you can talk with, because it's going
to short circuit achieving all of your goals.
Speaker 1: I think that's the best way to say it.
Speaker 4: Like, if you're really right, yeah, if you're really serious
about accomplishing your goals, you know, stop fucking around and
go find some people to help you.
Speaker 3: I feel like, you know, there's a lot to be
said there because concretely understanding what your goals are is
something that a lot of people push off. But if
you do understand what that is, then the next step
is fine, find the help and it's out there. Like people,
people for sure and want to help. I know for
a long time, people messaging me on LinkedIn. I will
for sure respond, you know, join the discord server that
I'm in and ask questions and some will pop up.
Speaker 2: If our.
Speaker 3: Viewers, you know, have questions, then you know will answer them.
There's a thing, right, you know, there are people out
there that definitely do this and don't expect anything in
return other than you know, maybe they will have questions
about how their thing is going and what support that
you have in your personal sphere. You know, your experiences
that are unique to you and one day will become
your superpower in a way that makes your experiences special.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess the last thing would be who is
it not for?
Speaker 4: Because that's always important to Like, if you're the type
of person who just wants to work at your job
until you hit retirement age, you're going to invest money
the whole time, So you just want to do your job,
you don't care.
Speaker 1: What it is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and when you're ready to retire, you're retiring. You're
probably not going to get a lot out of a mastermind.
And there's nothing wrong with that plan. I'm not trying
to say that that's a bad plan by any means.
It's perfectly viable for some people. But if that is
your plan. You probably won't get a lot out of
a Mastermind group.
Speaker 2: If you think you're going there to somehow.
Speaker 3: Directly benefit yourself by taking rather than contributing, then it's
not going to work out. Like going to and advertise
your thing or you know, help me make mine successful,
like is not necessarily the right mentality. It's does anyone
have an idea about what I'm doing? You know, tell
me why it's wrong. Is a much more direct path
to success than trying to extract value, so specifically, I think.
Speaker 4: For sure, Yeah, you're gonna give as much as you
take from the group. And the other thing is it
takes time, Like this is not a stack overflow thing
where you post your question, get an answer, and your
goal away, Like it's going to.
Speaker 1: Take you years to.
Speaker 4: Start seeing the benefits of this, but also years to
build the personal relationships that are going to be required
for you to have the deep conversations that actually have
significant impacts on your your goals.
Speaker 3: I think you said this, like some of those conversations
it's gonna be really challenging for you. Yeah, it's not
like you asked the question to get the answer, and
maybe like why are you asking that question, you know, right,
really diving into.
Speaker 1: That, Yeah for sure, for sure.
Speaker 4: And I think that's something that's missed in a lot
of superficial conversations we have, Like someone asked a question
and you give an answer. But one of the objectives
of being in the group is to understand what was
the event that triggered this question? And based on that,
are you even asking the right question?
Speaker 2: Yeah? For sure.
Speaker 3: And if you're not an expert in that area, then
you don't necessarily know whether you're asking the right question
or not. So having a group of other people to
point that out for you is worth an incredibly.
Speaker 1: Large amount for sure. All right.
Speaker 4: And just some picks, yeah, definitely, all right, bringing on,
you were touting your pick before we even started recording,
So I've been waiting for an hour here.
Speaker 3: I mentioned this a long time, so you may you may.
You may know this one, but I'm gonna bring it
up again. It's a book called The Formula by Bara Bassi.
It's the science of success. So where does success play
in and how do you get there? And it's a
a huge number of case studies that have been evaluated
and through scientific study, and we know things like your
network is super important. So I brought that up that
you may go to some conferences or get some jobs
in some circle, and if you want to higher paying
job that's completely different, well you need to somehow get there.
So knowing someone in your network to be able to
help you make that jump is required. Almost statistically speaking,
we don't make that migration ourselves. And it goes into
a lot of different areas like the top song that
shows up on the charts, why is it number one?
What keeps it in the number one spot? Why is
the one at the bottom of the chart at the
bottom of the chart, So a lot of different areas.
And it really talks about human psychology, how our network matters,
and I really I think is.
Speaker 2: Really relevant to the mastermind group concept.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, I would add to that one. Napoleon Hill,
We mentioned it in the episode here. Napoleon Hills Think
and Grow Rich definitely a good read for understanding how
this process works and some case studies of how it
has impacted other people. Big disclaimer though, this was written
in the early nineteen hundreds, and he references some scientific
facts that we now know are not true. So just
just gloss over that and say Okay, well, that's that's
what they knew at the time, and we've since learned differently.
But the process is still true because even though that
specific example, you know, even though their understanding of the
laws of physics was wrong, using some of those same
principles in the book was led to the formation of
the groups that understood how the laws of physics actually
are as we understand today.
Speaker 3: So when you say that, I think of this show
called QI. It's quite interesting as a British comedy fact show,
and every year they have new facts that are relevant
to some letters, some topic, and by like the ten season,
they had done a study about how true the facts
were at the time that they were released, and then
every year later, so the facts from ten seasons ago
were decreasing in truthfulness over time, and it was like
exponential curve. So the further away from the time we
said the fact, the more wrong it was likely to be,
which I found was super interesting.
Speaker 2: So is that book your pick?
Speaker 1: Will No, Actually that was just a on the fly thing.
Speaker 4: My actual pick for this week is an application, an
app called on X. I've been using it to go
out into the mountains and track locations and mark waypoints
and stuff, and the user interface on this app should
really just be like a reference for everyone who builds
apps on mobile, because you know, pulling up a map
and accessing coordinates and tracking your location saving that data,
and then you can go back to their website and
log in and all your waypoints and stuff are right there.
Just the app is so intuitive and easy to use
that I just thought it was great and worthy of
a call out.
Speaker 3: Here is that a Blackstone? So like Oscar November Yankee
X ray or spelled.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, it's a O n X. Okay, yeah,
it's a.
Speaker 4: ONX and they have hunt and I think the other
mode is like ATV or something.
Speaker 1: Like that for for that. But yeah, just super cool.
Speaker 4: If you're ever outdoors, you can download the offline version
so that whenever you're deep in the mountains or wilderness
or whatever and you don't have self service, it uses
satellite GPS to continuously track your location on the map
so you're not actually getting lost. But it was just
such a cool app I had to.
Speaker 1: Share it here.
Speaker 2: It sounds like something I should actually have and I don't.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you ever go hiking or if you're ever
just out somewhere where you need to navigate, I highly
recommend it.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm in Switzerland, so I do find myself on
the mountain right frequently.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, cool, All right, well listen For all of
the listeners out there, thanks for staying tuned this long.
Speaker 1: I hope that you found this helpful. If you have questions, comments, concerns,
you can find either Warren or myself on LinkedIn is
probably the easiest way. I'm on Twitter every once in
a while, or sorry X every once in a while.
Speaker 4: We have the discord channel. I think there's a public
form on the discord channel. Or if you Google search
for more than like two or three minutes, you're probably
gonna come up with my email address.
Speaker 1: You can email me too, so yeah, hit us up.
Speaker 4: Let us know your thoughts on this, let us know
questions you had about this, If you have future topics
you would like to see, bring those up as well,
or if there's something you want to talk about, we'd
love to have you as a guest on a show,
because that's honestly, this is this is my tool for
navigating the tech space and figuring out what's relevant, what's current,
what's changing.
Speaker 1: So if you're in.
Speaker 4: If you're involved in something, I'd love to have you
on the show to hear about it. So yeah, Warren,
thanks as always for being here, and we'll see everyone
else next week.
Speaker 1: H