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Speaker 1: This is a studio both and production. All right, well,

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Agent Ted Halla, thank you so much for taking the

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time to chat with me. We've talked offline and exchange emails,

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and I just want to say how appreciative I am

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for your candor and your time. This is an exhaustive

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and exhausting case, and I feel like we could talk

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about it for hours, So I just appreciate the few

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hours you've been able to give me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no problem. I'm happy to talk and you know,

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share what I can with your listeners. And I appreciate

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the work of everyone out there that's, you know, trying

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to you know, identify who these unknown victims are and

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solve some of these cases, because it's in twelve years

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and it's very very difficult task.

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Speaker 3: This is true crime bullshit. I'm your host, Josh Hallmark,

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and this is a serialized story of Israel Keys.

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Speaker 1: When I first started working on turning my Keys research

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into a podcast back in twenty sixteen, I reached out

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to a handful of people for interviews, Tammy, James Koenig,

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Bobby Shacone, Deborah Feldman's son, the Macaw Tribe, doctor Ramslin,

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Jolene Godin, and the General Anchorage FBI office. The responses

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varied wildly, from variations of leave me alone to let

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me think on it, to absolute or partial involvement. The

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only lack of response came from the Macaw and the

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active FBI, and I figured the FBI wasn't interested in

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me or Keys, or working with the media or all

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of the above, and so I moved on and made

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dew for six years. In twenty twenty two, while searching

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Lake Crescent with Gene Ralston, I got my first call

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from the FBI. It was Special Agent Ted Halla out

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of the Washington State office. He heard we were searching

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the lake and wanted to give me helpful information on

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what to look for in the lake and where the

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FBI believed Keys most likely submerged as victim. There we

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chatted on the phone twice for approximately forty five minutes

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in total, mostly about Lake Crescent, interspersed with brief conversations

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about potential Washington State victims, including in depth conversations about

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del Mar Sample, and once the search was complete, things

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got quiet again for two more years. In those two years,

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a lot happened behind the scenes on the Keys investigation, namely,

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three of the lead or original investigators retired, Godin Jeff

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Bell and Monique Dahl, and in the media there was

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a renewed interest in Israel Keys. Between twenty twenty one

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and twenty twenty three, I was contacted by four different

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production companies working on different Keys TV projects, and the

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TCB team, namely Kim Kay, with help from Somewhere in

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the Pines, successfully identif to fight the first Keys cash

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since Keyes himself led the FBI to his Eagle River

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and Blake Falls reservoir caches in twenty twelve, I believe

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it was these three factors that contributed to some changes

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in the way that the Keys case was being handled publicly,

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a change of guard, renewed interest and confirmation that independent

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researchers could in fact help move this case along. And

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Agent ted Halla, the last original investigator still working on

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the Keys case, was quickly approaching mandatory retirement. It was

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both the right time and the right environment for the

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FBI to make some moves. Over the past four months,

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have exchanged dozens of emails with the FBI and have

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spoken directly with Agent Holla over zoom for three hours

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an hour last week and an off the record prep

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call and two hours this week for an official interview.

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In the weeks leading up to our interview, I sent

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the FBI about a dozen documents to review. The verst

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is what we've been calling the concept timeline, a robust,

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thirty six page timeline which includes all of Keyes's known activity.

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The name is forty five disappearances, every single sighting and

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tip we've ever received, potential victims, potential robberies and arsons,

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family birthdays, phone and credit card blackouts, important milestone's in

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Keyes's life and his loved one's lives, and more. Next

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were case write ups on Cameyon, Eugene Celia, Darlene Barnes,

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Wendy de Hoop, Jonathan Corey, Donald Tobin, and Mark Oldberry.

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Bearing in mind that we'd already emailed or spoken about

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a dozen or so other cases, and halla asked that

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I keep my questioning mostly focused on Pacific Northwest cases.

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Then there were about a dozen tips and sightings we've

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received over the years that we found crucial, credible, or both.

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And then some miscellaneous documents or notes, including sightings in

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the FBI files, theories we've developed over the years, and

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so on. Now, unfortunately I had to be both strategic

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and specific about what I sent and hoped to discuss.

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We had limited time. We couldn't just sit down for

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six days and rehash eleven years of research in six

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years of podcasting. So there were three goals in mind

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for this interview. To prove to Halla that I was informed, useful,

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and trustworthy. To fact find and eliminate potential victims or theories,

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and to forge a relationship that could lead to more

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conversations with hopefully a greater level of trust and candle.

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I did not go into our interview with great expectations.

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I kind of figured that most of the information the

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FBI has deemed shareable has likely already been shared. Additionally,

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I felt pretty restricted by the request to keep the

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conversation Washington State oriented. For me, the key's investigation needs

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to be holistic and connective. His crimes and lessons influence

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one another, and he travels to conceal his crimes, to

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revisit his crimes, and to potentially move evidence. I'm very

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hesitant to believe you can have a productive conversation about

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keys that is entirely endemic. My major struggle going into

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the interview was knowing that they have information that I

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do not, while not allowing that to negate or minimize

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my decade of work on the case. As Kaz reminded

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me several times before and since, yes they are the FBI,

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but you have just as much right to be at

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the party. The interview overall was a mixed bag that

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I consider mostly a success. There was a new information,

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very relevant, new information. We ruled out a potential victim.

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We developed new investigative avenues with new leads. Information I

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shared with Ted sparked interest from him. We agreed on

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a lot, and yet there were still things I didn't

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agree with. For example, Ted Holla and seemingly the FBI

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at large don't believe that Keys committed homicide until after

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he was discharged from the Army in July of two

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thousand and one. And while they spent time with Keys,

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they got to know Keys in a way I never can.

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I still disagree with this, and it's something I pressed

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Hala on in both the pre interview and the recorded interview,

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and it wasn't the only thing we disagreed on. Additionally,

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there were a lot of answers that I wasn't satisfied with.

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You know, there were all these matches to NamUs of

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people on his computer and on there were the couriers.

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Had he spelled Deborah Feldman's name correctly, it probably would

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have been on there as well. Is there any reason

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to believe and I think eighty percent of them can

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be ruled out, is there any reason to believe that

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any of those other names could be Key's victims?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not familiar with all the names on there.

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It's I guess a possibility. Yeah, I just don't know, okay.

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Speaker 1: And then Texas, and I know you know your focus

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is Washington State, but since we're there, I sent over

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the Mark Julian Oldberry information that I have and I

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just to me, you know, the Tidwell case and the

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old Berry case are, in my opinion that I have

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seen the strongest cases for keys, And I wonder if

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you have any immediate thoughts after looking at that.

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Speaker 2: And Texas has not been something I've looked at really

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at all. Are two retired agents, Juline Godin and then

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Jeff Bell Anchorage, PD. They knew a lot more about Texas.

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That was something they looked at pretty hard, So I

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definitely would defer to them for questions comments about Texas.

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It's just something I don't I don't really have a

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lot of knowledge about.

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Speaker 1: One thing that stood out to me is repeated, often

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suspicious trips to Vegas, where like his phone is off,

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where he stops using credit cards. I know there were

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maps of I think Nevada and Utah found in his

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car at his arrest. Is there reason to believe that

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there could be a victim from that area?

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Speaker 2: You know? Just this morning, when I was kind of

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preparing for coming on with you, I read where he

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was talking about how he didn't like Vegas. And I

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can't remember the exact reason, but he specifically talked about

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how he didn't like Vegas and whether it was just

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too much surveillance or what it was in the town.

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But he specifically mentioned that as a place he didn't like.

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So it's possible. It's possible, but he seemed to indicate

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in the one interview that that was not a place

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he was fond of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was wondering if that was just his way

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of being specific lying through specificity, as though like, maybe

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he didn't like Vegas, but he didn't mind forty five

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minutes south of Vegas.

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think he was being honest

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about not liking Vegas for whatever the reason was that

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he said, but anything's possible.

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Speaker 1: Unsatisfying answers and disagreements aside, the interview was incredibly helpful

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and impactful, and I've never been more confident than I

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am right now that we can make some major movement

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in this case that we can probably identify not just one,

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but several keys victims.

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Speaker 2: I remember following the case in just the news when

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it happened. I've always kind of just paid attention to,

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you know, kidnapping type cases. I've worked a few before

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this one, and so I was aware of the Barisa

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missing up in Anchorage, and I believe it was in

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March of twenty twelve. I got a call from say

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especially Juliene Goden from our Anchorage office tell me about

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the case. How they had, you know, had arrested this

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guy down in Texas that they believe was connected to

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the disappearance of Samantha, and that through their background they

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realized that he had lived in Washington State for many

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years and specifically out in Nia Bay, which is one

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that areas that my office covers. And so that first

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phone call was, Hey, can you go out to Nia

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Bay and just start interviewing as many people as possible.

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And they understood that his ex wife lived out there,

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and they want me to interview co workers and just

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anyone that knew him. And so that's really where it started.

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That next day, after that phone call, I was out there,

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you know, interviewing people, and it's never stopped in a sense.

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Speaker 1: What were your general impressions of him? I guess through

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your initial research and then through eventually your discussions with him.

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Speaker 2: He was very meticulous. It's paid a lot of attention

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to detail that comes across when you listen to the

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interviews with him, Like details mattered to him. If we

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would get something wrong in an interview, he'd correct us

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right away, which is actually great when we do child

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forensic interviews, it's one of the things we teach children, Hey,

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if we get something wrong, tell us right away. We

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don't want to, you know, misspeak. And Keith was really

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good about that. He was two totally different people. When

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I interviewed all of these families and friends and co workers,

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I couldn't find anything derogatory about him. Like he was

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the best husband, he was the best boyfriend, he was

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the best coworker, like just everyone he praised on him,

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which seems so different to what we were investigating. And

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so he really was just great at deceiving people as

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far as this other side of the criminal element that

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he had. Yeah, it was it was a shock. It

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was a shock, and I think some of the family

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that was even closest to him, I think they were

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just convinced that the FBI was wrong, like somehow this

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guy could not have done it, and it was just

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in complete contrast to the person that they knew and loved.

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Speaker 1: Hollow's comments about Keys getting stuck on details and correcting

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them stood out to me. It reminded me of something

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that doctor Cunkle said, we should look out for the

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way that Keys would play with words to omit the truth,

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verbal and linguistic gymnastics. And I started to think about

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Keys lying through specificity, Keys drilling a question and his

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answer down to such specific detail that he could evade

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the truth without lying. It's something that comes up a

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few times in our conversations, and it's a lens with

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which we ought to listen to his interrogations. Yeah, you

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talk about him being meticulous, and I think, you know,

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if there's a one sentence description of Keys in the media.

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It's that he's one of the most meticulous serial killers

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of all time. And you know, I only ask you

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this because I get asked it all the time. He

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got caught in probably one of the sloppiest ways ever.

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And I think, you know, when you look at the

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crimes we do know he committed, they don't necessarily exist

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as like a paragon of meticulousness. Like I wonder, do

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you think he was devolving and losing control over time

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or do you think those are the crimes we know about,

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because those are the crimes he messed up in and

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figured we would eventually find out about anyway.

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Speaker 2: A little bit of both. I think it's clear that

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as time was moving on, as we get into twenty twelve,

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he was becoming more compulsive in doing things that he

239
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,559
shared with us he would have never done before, you know,

240
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,240
early on in his crimes. And so there was something

241
00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:39,279
going on with him that was just causing him to

242
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,080
take risks that I don't think he would have previously,

243
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:46,039
and he acknowledged that in his interviews. I think it

244
00:16:46,039 --> 00:16:49,200
would take a psychologist to probably dive deep into what

245
00:16:49,279 --> 00:16:51,159
that might be. What was going on with him that

246
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,320
he was starting to, you know, do these more high

247
00:16:53,399 --> 00:16:57,759
risk type things. But it was clearly that his pattern

248
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:03,639
in victimization was changing, and there was an adrenaline adrenaline

249
00:17:03,679 --> 00:17:07,319
component that I think was causing him to do more

250
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,920
high risk things which have actually gotten caught.

251
00:17:10,519 --> 00:17:12,920
Speaker 1: My team and I have noticed a pattern, and I've

252
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,440
talked to a few people, some criminal psychologists and some

253
00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:19,000
former FBI agents about what could be a Keys pattern,

254
00:17:19,039 --> 00:17:21,799
particularly later on as he was I guess devolving or

255
00:17:21,799 --> 00:17:27,079
losing control, which is you know, following the Deborah Feldman murder,

256
00:17:27,559 --> 00:17:31,240
he robbed the tupper Like bank and then following the couriers,

257
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,319
he had plans to rob a couple of banks up

258
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,119
in I think Jericho and Johnson, Vermont. If he did

259
00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,240
in fact kill someone in Texas, he robbed a bank

260
00:17:40,599 --> 00:17:42,519
around the same time that he likely would have done

261
00:17:42,559 --> 00:17:45,920
that when he was offline and missing. Do you think

262
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,359
that you know, this is a pattern that we should

263
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,640
be looking into. Is like disappearances that occur in conjunction

264
00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:55,440
with a bank robbery or an arson, or perhaps both

265
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:57,240
not necessarily.

266
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,960
Speaker 2: I think that the bank robberies were served a couple

267
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,359
of purposes for him, he didn't need money to be

268
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,599
able to, you know, hide some of his whereabouts in

269
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,079
travels because he's able to pay with cash. So I

270
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,200
think the financial side of a bank robbery helped him

271
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,680
in some ways with financing these other crimes that were

272
00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:22,359
kind of really what he was motivating him. I think

273
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,960
for everything else, there was some adournaline rush when we

274
00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:28,400
talked to it. When I had a chance to talk

275
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,920
to him in October twenty twelve, we mentioned about how,

276
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,519
you know, a takeover bank robbery gave him almost a

277
00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:37,319
similar type high as kidnapping someone, So I think it

278
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,799
served that purpose as well. In the regard to arsons,

279
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,000
arsons are something that you know, we frequently see with

280
00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:48,000
serial killers, like you know, it's it's a crime that

281
00:18:48,039 --> 00:18:51,960
seems to associate with them for whatever reason. So I

282
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,240
think that may be part of the arson too. But yeah,

283
00:18:56,279 --> 00:18:59,519
I think it's I don't think his kidnappings have to

284
00:18:59,519 --> 00:19:02,839
be related to an arson or a robbery, but they

285
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,480
very well could pattern out like that. I mean, most

286
00:19:05,519 --> 00:19:08,799
of our efforts have been since he passed has been

287
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,480
to really try to look at missing persons cases that

288
00:19:13,839 --> 00:19:18,960
you know, potentially be connected to him. Knowing that the data,

289
00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,319
we may not be seeing the data at all, because

290
00:19:21,559 --> 00:19:23,519
you know, he made it clear that early on his

291
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,240
victims received little to no media attention, that you know,

292
00:19:27,319 --> 00:19:30,160
he had this uncanny luck of grabbing people that didn't

293
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,759
go easily missed. But all he had to really look

294
00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:35,839
for is what was already out there and hope that

295
00:19:36,039 --> 00:19:38,519
you know, one or two of those may coincide with

296
00:19:38,559 --> 00:19:42,720
one of his victims. And what we what I learned,

297
00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:45,599
you know, is that with missing children, there's really good

298
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,799
databases and there's good records, but with missing adults that's

299
00:19:48,839 --> 00:19:52,359
not the case. You know, if you look at people

300
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,920
that go missing from out of state a lot of time,

301
00:19:55,039 --> 00:19:57,559
the record of their missing is from their home state,

302
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,359
not where they went missing. So became clear that it

303
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,359
was going to be really hard for us to feel

304
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,319
like we had a good grasp of all the missing

305
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,839
people in a particular area because we don't. But the database,

306
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,079
especially back then, just weren't that good.

307
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, which it brings up I think a point of

308
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,880
frustration for us is particularly earlier on in his criminal activity,

309
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,039
he was operating mostly in state parks or you know,

310
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:29,920
federal and places where tourists generally flocked to So you know,

311
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,960
as we go through NamUs, I've had to remember, like

312
00:20:32,279 --> 00:20:35,920
I can't just click on the Pacific Northwest disappearances because

313
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,119
they could be anybody. Yeah, speaking of Olympic National Park,

314
00:20:40,599 --> 00:20:44,640
and I emailed you about this, there's one sighting in

315
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,480
the FBI files that stands out to me. It's this

316
00:20:47,759 --> 00:20:50,759
gentleman who was fishing at the Hoe River, fishing and camping,

317
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,000
and he said a guy pulled up. I think the

318
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,160
guy even said his name was Israel. I don't recall,

319
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,440
but he pulled up, saw him there by himself. Yeah,

320
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,200
he did himself as Israel. And they started talking and

321
00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:05,200
he said he was going he was waiting for the

322
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,000
snow because he was going to go work the ski

323
00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:10,640
ski mountains. And he didn't bring in a camping gear.

324
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,039
He was driving what the guy believed to be a

325
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,559
light colored older junkie dots In or Toyota. Long story short.

326
00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:21,880
Not far from there, later someone recovers what could be

327
00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:25,079
a keys cash or kill kit, and so I just wonder,

328
00:21:25,599 --> 00:21:27,920
have you looked into this? Do you find it credible?

329
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,759
And then I have a bunch of follow questions.

330
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I took the call on that particular person at

331
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,519
the time while they called in, I thought it was

332
00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:41,440
a really interesting story that he told. It made a

333
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,519
lot of sense to me that he'd remembered the name Israel.

334
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,880
He talked about how he was cooking up I think

335
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,519
pork chops or something like that. Yeah, and he asked

336
00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:53,720
him if it's you know, basically invite him to join

337
00:21:53,759 --> 00:21:55,920
him for dinner. But was concerned that this might be

338
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,640
something that would be a food he wouldn't eat, maybe

339
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,200
because of religious reasons, given his first name and stuff.

340
00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:05,720
And you know, part of the scenario with this gentleman

341
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,200
was that he kind of felt creeped out by this

342
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,519
person Israel, and actually told a lie which you very

343
00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:14,599
well you know, may have had a positive impact on

344
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,799
how things turned out. And that lie was that he

345
00:22:16,839 --> 00:22:19,079
had friends that were coming to join him. I made

346
00:22:19,079 --> 00:22:20,720
it sound like they could show up at any time.

347
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,200
Brilliant move on his part. And so, you know, they

348
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,440
spend the evening kind of chit chatting together, you know,

349
00:22:29,519 --> 00:22:32,759
over this meal, and in the morning, you know, Israel's

350
00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:34,839
gone and there's a note left on his windshield thanking

351
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,839
them for the meal. It very well could be. Unfortunately,

352
00:22:38,839 --> 00:22:40,759
he wasn't able to narrow it down to a specific

353
00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:43,000
time or where we could do, you know, dive into

354
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,960
a timeline and try to figure out where Keys was

355
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:46,720
at the time and see if you know, we do

356
00:22:46,759 --> 00:22:50,640
any corroboration that way. But I think it very well

357
00:22:50,799 --> 00:22:53,920
possibly could be him, just don't enough details to know

358
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:54,319
for sure.

359
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's stands out to me because we you know,

360
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,559
there's some of the files. There's some we found just

361
00:23:00,599 --> 00:23:02,759
like searching the internet, and some that have come directly

362
00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:06,279
to me, very similar encounters in Washington State and New

363
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,359
York Vermont area of some guy introducing himself as Israel,

364
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,359
who they swear up and down is Keys, who gives

365
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,680
enough information about his life that it aligns with everything

366
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,319
we know about Keys. And you know, one such one

367
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,920
in the files is this Lake Paris encounter where the

368
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,359
guy I believe says his name is Israel, he says

369
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:32,319
he's a contractor, he says that he served in two

370
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,880
thousand and one, that he was abroad, and then the

371
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,920
same thing, the guy's like, oh, actually my kid's here

372
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,440
with me, And as soon as he said that, the

373
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,640
guy loses interest. It stood out to me is super credible.

374
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,440
So I guess, like in similar circumstances. Are you looking

375
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,160
for sightings that kind of line up with that where

376
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,279
it's you know, this person who gives enough information about himself,

377
00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:56,440
particularly sightings that come in before your press releases go

378
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,319
out when people don't know these details about keys. Is

379
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,079
that part of your investigative process?

380
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 2: It is. I think every tip that comes in, especially

381
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,559
when it's a sighting type tip, you know, we take

382
00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:12,480
a deep look at it. It's the best we can. Statistically,

383
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,759
those type of tips often end up where the person

384
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,759
is mistaken. And example I can give you is I've

385
00:24:21,799 --> 00:24:24,559
worked a lot of large investigations over my almost twenty

386
00:24:24,559 --> 00:24:29,519
five years, and when we do reach out to the

387
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,200
public through the media, you know, asking for help, whether

388
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,200
it's trying to find a missing person or you know,

389
00:24:34,279 --> 00:24:37,799
be on the lookout for this particular subject, especially in

390
00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:41,000
a really big case, we'll get hundreds and hundreds of

391
00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:45,440
tips that come flying in. Statistically, ninety five percent of

392
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,039
them are not related to the case. And most of

393
00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:51,119
those tips that come in are people saying, hey, I

394
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,519
saw this person at this area right, you know, head

395
00:24:55,519 --> 00:24:59,119
contact with this person here, and they're not Most of

396
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,279
these individuals are calling in, they're not lying to us.

397
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,759
It's just that they're mistaken about who this person really is.

398
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,559
And when you have a lot of a large time gap,

399
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,759
it even gets harder and harder just because people's memories

400
00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:16,839
change and things like that. So when we get tips

401
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,079
in about people who you know, swear that it's is

402
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,319
real keys that they saw or had a contact with, statistically,

403
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,920
I know it's it's a very small chance it's probably

404
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,839
a real encounter, but we have to dig into it

405
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,319
and do the best we can to try to let

406
00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:33,599
out the information because investigators are looking for that five

407
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,880
percent where it's really significant and is a real event

408
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,319
that could you know, help turn a case. And that's

409
00:25:40,319 --> 00:25:42,559
why we're so thankful when you know, people reach out

410
00:25:42,559 --> 00:25:46,640
to law enforcement with their information knowing that statistically most

411
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,759
of them are gon't be mistaken about, you know, the

412
00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:50,440
person that they're calling about.

413
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that makes sense. I'm inclined to agree that

414
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,079
ninety five percent of tips that come in are likely inaccurate.

415
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,960
But what stood out to me from this conversation and

416
00:26:05,039 --> 00:26:09,839
how it could inform betting tips, is this in both

417
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,240
that Hoe River tip, which he believes is credible, and

418
00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:17,839
the Laplace encounter, which we now know was Keys. Keys

419
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,759
happened upon someone in a remote and isolated area who

420
00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:26,519
was initially alone. He introduced himself as Israel. He gave

421
00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:29,680
information about his life, like where he lived, what he

422
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,279
did for a living, or what his hobbies were, and

423
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:35,000
then his demeanor changed once he became aware that there

424
00:26:35,039 --> 00:26:38,279
were other people around or in root. And we have

425
00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:42,119
a handful of tips that closely or exactly match that behavior.

426
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,680
And while every tip should be scrutinized and honestly taken

427
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,599
with a grain of salt, the tips that match these

428
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,680
should be taken slightly more seriously and warrant further discussion.

429
00:26:54,599 --> 00:26:58,599
As doctor Cuncle has reminded me, it's nearly impossible for

430
00:26:58,799 --> 00:27:03,359
multiple unknown people in different places to make up or

431
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,960
misremember seemingly identical encounters. And there's so many like this,

432
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,000
so many times where he introduced himself as Israel and

433
00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:17,440
talked about serving in the army in Egypt, talked about

434
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,200
being a construction worker from Alaska, talked about living on

435
00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:25,359
tribal land. The Everett Community College encounter comes to mind,

436
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:31,319
as do Paris Lake and the contradance among others. And

437
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,680
then I guess circling back to that encounter on the hoe.

438
00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:39,039
You know, something stood out to me is, you know,

439
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,599
he talks about this junker, junkie, older white car, and

440
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,200
I know that Keys, around the time that this guy

441
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,480
believes this encounter had happened, was dating a woman who

442
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,359
like incidentally ran into him and he was driving a

443
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,359
car unknown to her. She asked him about it, he says, oh, yeah,

444
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,440
this is just my car that I use for traveling.

445
00:27:59,839 --> 00:28:02,359
I believe that the next part of that sentence is

446
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,079
redacted in the files, but he has a specific use

447
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,720
for this car that no one's ever seen. And it

448
00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:10,680
got me thinking, because there's something else that comes up

449
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,480
in the interviews that I've never heard elaborated Honor expounded

450
00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:17,039
upon where he briefly mentions that he went through a

451
00:28:17,079 --> 00:28:21,079
period where he was like working on old cars. And

452
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:22,880
so to me, like, if you look at these three

453
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,799
things altogether, it's you know, Keys with this car no

454
00:28:25,839 --> 00:28:29,279
one seems to have heard of or seen this guy,

455
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,480
seeing him in a very similar car out in the

456
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:39,000
woods while he's presumably trolling. And then this, according to

457
00:28:39,079 --> 00:28:43,279
Keys' you know activity, where he's picking up older used

458
00:28:43,319 --> 00:28:46,799
cars trying to I guess turn them around and then

459
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,440
this photo from the constable property where there's at least

460
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,599
two junkie old cars parked on the property while he's

461
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,079
living there. Have you looked into, you know, Keys's possible

462
00:28:57,119 --> 00:28:59,960
position of other cars and whether you know he used

463
00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:03,480
stolen cars or cars he was working on in the

464
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:04,640
conjunction of his crimes.

465
00:29:05,799 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: I have it myself. I'm aware of some of the

466
00:29:08,039 --> 00:29:10,079
vehicles he had when he was out in Nia Bay,

467
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,759
but I haven't dove into, you know, other type of

468
00:29:14,759 --> 00:29:16,559
cars that he was working on and stuff like that,

469
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,119
So I definitely don't have a good grasp of all

470
00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:21,720
the different vehicles he might have used or had access to.

471
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:24,079
Speaker 1: Okay, do have a good sense of I guess, in

472
00:29:24,119 --> 00:29:26,559
particular this Pontiac grand am that he had.

473
00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: I don't. I didn't dig into it real, you know,

474
00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:33,319
real deep, just because he wasn't real sure about the vehicle,

475
00:29:34,319 --> 00:29:37,920
how much time had passed. It's very possible that you know,

476
00:29:38,039 --> 00:29:41,960
Keys would have access to different vehicles, But no, there

477
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,640
wasn anything that really significant was significant from that.

478
00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, it just comes to mind because I know

479
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,319
after the the shoots attack, he talks about like feeling

480
00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:54,319
like he can't be driving around in places he lives in,

481
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,599
you know, any any car that could be recognizable to

482
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,400
people he knows. And so then all of a sudden

483
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,160
you have a girlfriend seeing a car she's never seen

484
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,599
before and him talking about him working on all these

485
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,480
used cars, and you're like, Okay, this seems intentional.

486
00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:09,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yea.

487
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: So speaking of sightings, and I don't want to spend

488
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,200
too much time on them, but I had sent you

489
00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:18,640
a few and I think of those, you know, there

490
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,039
are two that stand out the most to me, and

491
00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:24,240
one is out of Vaidor, Texas. This woman is in

492
00:30:24,279 --> 00:30:27,319
a cemetery visiting her grandfather's grave and she sees who

493
00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:31,279
she believes to be keys, rushing toward her from the woods.

494
00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:35,599
She's been very active about this in the media, which

495
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,799
always makes me a little anxious, but to me, it

496
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,960
kind of lines up with everything we know about keys.

497
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,000
We can place them in the area at the time.

498
00:30:44,079 --> 00:30:45,839
Have you been able to look into this and do

499
00:30:45,839 --> 00:30:46,880
you have any thoughts about it?

500
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: You know, I just saw the information that she passed

501
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:56,039
on and took a look at it, and just hard

502
00:30:56,079 --> 00:30:59,599
to say, you know, I would want to do a

503
00:30:59,599 --> 00:31:03,759
little more or research. Clearly an interview with her and

504
00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:05,720
then kind of dig into a little bit of background

505
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,279
and stuff, and it's possible, like it's very possible. It's

506
00:31:09,319 --> 00:31:12,880
just hard to say, you know, whether it's apprid or not.

507
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: So I want to go to We talked a little

508
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,880
bit about it, and I think I sent you the information.

509
00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:21,759
This barista in Squim who got to know Keys fairly

510
00:31:21,799 --> 00:31:24,519
well just from him driving through her coffee stand and

511
00:31:24,559 --> 00:31:29,079
getting coffees, and she had told the FBI that he

512
00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:30,799
had come through with a man that he alleged was

513
00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:33,079
his father, well after his father had died, that he

514
00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:35,319
had come through with a dog that he alleged was

515
00:31:35,359 --> 00:31:37,680
his but there's no record of him having this type

516
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,279
of dog. And he had gone shooting with one of

517
00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:43,759
her buddies out near very near where Steven Michael Mason

518
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:46,200
disappeared from. Have you been able to look further into

519
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,440
this and do you have any thoughts or ideas or

520
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,640
is there any other information you can provide.

521
00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:54,799
Speaker 2: I've taken a you know, close look at that report

522
00:31:54,839 --> 00:31:59,240
again in just all the facts of it. I think

523
00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:03,480
she's just very she's just mistaken, but she believes is Israel.

524
00:32:03,559 --> 00:32:06,960
Keys is not Israel. I mean, no, the facts line up.

525
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,920
We know he didn't have any dogs during that time period.

526
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,119
He wasn't doing construction jobs during that time period. He

527
00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:17,920
was doing some side jobs for people in Nia Bay.

528
00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:21,960
You know, he did some simple remodels, was doing some

529
00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:24,960
furniture builds and stuff like that. But there was definitely

530
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,000
no construction type jobs going on, especially outside of Nia

531
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,319
Bay at that time. The information about you know, the

532
00:32:32,359 --> 00:32:34,480
person being his father, we know his father died a

533
00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:39,480
year prior to that shooting range. There's all kinds of

534
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:42,599
easy access shooting ranges in THEA Bay that he would

535
00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:46,079
have used before driving two two plus hours to Squim.

536
00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:50,240
So I think she's just mistaken. I do not believe

537
00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:52,039
that's israel Keys that she's talking about.

538
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: I get asked this a lot, and I'm sure you'll

539
00:32:56,519 --> 00:32:59,200
be as annoyed by it as I am. And you

540
00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:02,519
actually believe there's less than a dozen victims, because just

541
00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:07,640
looking at his suspicious travels, context clues he's given, it

542
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,440
seems like there's likely more.

543
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,599
Speaker 2: I believe there's less than a dozen Americans. You know,

544
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,839
he was clear to say he wasn't going to talk

545
00:33:21,839 --> 00:33:24,359
about Canada Canadian stone comps. I think the words he

546
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,160
used when you understand where he was in the process

547
00:33:29,319 --> 00:33:32,759
of he was trying to get the death penalty. He

548
00:33:32,839 --> 00:33:36,920
wanted it within a year. As brilliant as he was

549
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,400
with his crimes, he was super naive about the US

550
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,319
legal system to think that he could get the death

551
00:33:41,319 --> 00:33:43,519
penalty in a year. But I think he was smart

552
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,079
enough to know that if he identified any victims outside

553
00:33:48,079 --> 00:33:50,119
of the US, that was going to drag everything on

554
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,440
for years and years and years, and he wasn't going

555
00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:57,240
to do that. Myself and the different investigators up in

556
00:33:57,319 --> 00:34:00,200
Anchorage that have really worked hard on this case, we

557
00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:03,519
all agree that we believe that, you know, the number

558
00:34:03,519 --> 00:34:06,960
eleven is a good number. I mentioned earlier about how

559
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,599
Keys would correct us, and the investigators during the interviews

560
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:15,159
would do different things where they would say eleven, you know,

561
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,679
and to see if he would correct us, and he wouldn't.

562
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,320
And I think we feel pretty comfortable with that given

563
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,159
all the evidence, you know, the bloody skulls that they recovered.

564
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:32,840
And again, I think he was looking for the death penalty.

565
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,239
If he wasn't going to get it in the federal system,

566
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,920
Washington was his backup plan. And you think why Washington. Again,

567
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,679
he's really naive about the death penalty in Washington State

568
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,880
and how little it's used. But Washington had the next

569
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,400
most victims, and that's why that was his plan. B

570
00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,000
A single victim in Texas would have probably gone him

571
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,320
death penalty faster than it would have ever in Washington.

572
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,440
But I don't think he grasped that. But I think

573
00:34:57,639 --> 00:34:59,719
eleven's a good number for US victims.

574
00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: I guess that begs an obvious question. Looking at you know,

575
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,360
the border patrol records and immigration records, it doesn't look

576
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,480
like he's actually in Canada that often. Are we attributing

577
00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:15,400
this to like pre nine to eleven or do we

578
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,199
think that there's just some visits that aren't accounted for?

579
00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:22,960
And then I guess secondary to that, what stands out

580
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,440
to me is when he's moving to Alaska and it

581
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,360
takes him four days to drive, I think ten hours.

582
00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:34,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's been shows on that trip from you know,

583
00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:37,880
the US to Alaska, like they've had a lot of

584
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,880
missing persons and you know, killings up along that highway.

585
00:35:41,199 --> 00:35:43,639
I think forty eight hours. Did something on that you know,

586
00:35:43,679 --> 00:35:45,639
maybe ten years or so ago made me think of

587
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,880
keys right away, Like, yep, that's that's the rout you

588
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,679
we've taken up there. I mean, it's pure speculation on

589
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,079
our part because we just have no information from him

590
00:35:53,199 --> 00:35:56,719
or from any other source to indicate that there's a

591
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,960
Canadian victim. But I wouldn't be surprised if if there was.

592
00:36:02,159 --> 00:36:05,159
Speaker 1: This is another place where I disagree with Hulla and

593
00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:10,840
the FBI at large, based on travel and context clues alone,

594
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,199
Just eleven victims, even if it's eleven just in the States,

595
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,239
does not seem likely to me. But where I agree

596
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,559
is in regards to his move to Alaska. As I've

597
00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:26,519
previously reported, it took Keys three days to drive from

598
00:36:26,559 --> 00:36:30,800
Cash Creek, British Columbia to Watson Lake in the Yukon Territory,

599
00:36:31,079 --> 00:36:34,079
what is normally an eighteen hour drive between the morning

600
00:36:34,119 --> 00:36:38,400
of March fifth and the evening of March seventh, and

601
00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:41,400
during this time we can't place him at any hotels.

602
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,199
A considerable stretch of that drive was on what is

603
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,519
referred to as Canada's Highway of Tears, a notorious stretch

604
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:53,079
of highway between Prince George and Prince Rupert, British Columbia,

605
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,800
where the RCMP has acknowledged at least eighteen murders and

606
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,599
disappearances of Indigenous people between nineteen sixteen nine in two

607
00:37:00,639 --> 00:37:04,280
thousand and six, although that number is suspected to be

608
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:09,320
significantly higher, likely exceeding forty, and the disappearances and unsolved

609
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,440
murders have continued since two thousand and six. There are

610
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,679
no reported disappearances that occurred anywhere near that stretch of highway,

611
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,679
while Keys himself disappeared on it for three days Strong

612
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:28,840
emphasis On reported. However, a fourteen year old First Nations

613
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,039
boy named Desmond Peter went missing on an unknown date

614
00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:36,000
from Duncan, British Columbia, about fifteen miles north of Victoria

615
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,960
during this approximate period. The only reporting I've seen indicates

616
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,840
today that he was reported missing March twelfth of two

617
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,079
thousand seven, but I have not seen any reports that

618
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,280
stay a time and date of his last known whereabouts.

619
00:37:51,519 --> 00:37:55,800
But like the FBI, I've long believed that Keys likely

620
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,239
abducted and murdered a Canadian during his move to Alaska.

621
00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 2: We also know when he was over in, you know,

622
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,559
the northeast part of the country. He talked about frequently

623
00:38:06,599 --> 00:38:11,920
going up to Canada because the prostitution reasons never indicated

624
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,559
that he had a homicide victim up there, but he

625
00:38:14,599 --> 00:38:17,119
clearly was crossing over the border. I think you have

626
00:38:17,199 --> 00:38:19,119
mentioned how easy it was back then to cross the

627
00:38:19,159 --> 00:38:22,679
border kind of undetected, so that he could, you know,

628
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,960
seek about prostitutes up there in Montreal.

629
00:38:26,039 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, you know, when you look at his history,

630
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,639
he always seems to be within ten miles of an

631
00:38:32,679 --> 00:38:38,519
international border between Maine and New York and Neia Bay.

632
00:38:39,039 --> 00:38:41,719
So that begs the question. And I hate to beat

633
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,800
a dead horse. You know, we talked about it offline,

634
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,719
and I know the FBI seems pretty firm on they

635
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,360
believe that he didn't kill anyone prior to the army.

636
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,079
But then you even look at, you know, his access

637
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:57,440
to Canada as mainly going to be before the army,

638
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,400
and then I think of the Dishoots rape and he

639
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,079
says that he regretted not killing her, and then he

640
00:39:03,199 --> 00:39:05,559
waits three and a half years to try to kill

641
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:09,239
someone again. And then also there's this point where he says,

642
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,159
you know, the longest that ever occurred between crimes or murders,

643
00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:17,760
I think the language is not clear, but is three years.

644
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,360
And he says when I was in the army, So

645
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,360
all this to me seems like maybe we shouldn't necessarily

646
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,119
discount crimes that it would have occurred before the army,

647
00:39:26,199 --> 00:39:27,719
or I guess murders specifically.

648
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 2: Well, I do believe him that his first homicide occurred

649
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,480
after he got out of the army, which would be

650
00:39:35,559 --> 00:39:39,199
July in two thousand and one. His July tenth interview.

651
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:40,840
I don't know if you guys have talked about that

652
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,559
on your podcast, but that's a really great interview in

653
00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:46,920
the sense that it kind of lays out the groundwork of,

654
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,719
you know, how he got into this criminal activity and

655
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,280
kind of the growth and development of you know, his

656
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,960
crimes and his victims and stuff like that. And you know,

657
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,280
he talks about how when he was in the army

658
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,239
that's when he decid I did, like, if I'm going

659
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,280
to kill someone, I just need to do it. Basically

660
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,039
I'm paraphrasing, but he talks about how that was in

661
00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:10,159
the army when he got to that realization, and then

662
00:40:10,199 --> 00:40:13,840
he talks about in that same section of the interview,

663
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,199
he talks about how, you know, when he was in

664
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:18,760
the army, the army was good for him in the

665
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,679
sense that it kind of kept them from a lot

666
00:40:20,679 --> 00:40:23,519
of the criminal activity because he just there was someone

667
00:40:23,639 --> 00:40:27,280
always watching, and he mentions about how, you know, he

668
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,679
implies that it's his you know, first homicide. But it's

669
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,239
only a few months after he gets out of the

670
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,880
army that it occurs, like he's kind of got his

671
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,440
freedom again, you know, after he gets out of the army,

672
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,880
and he participated in those things that he's you know,

673
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,400
kind of been wanting to do. But yet, I think

674
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,559
that July tenth interview is very convincing to me that

675
00:40:50,159 --> 00:40:53,559
I don't think there's earlier victims. And I think in

676
00:40:53,599 --> 00:40:56,320
some of our other more general conversations with him, if

677
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,480
there were earlier victims, I don't think he'd hold back

678
00:40:58,519 --> 00:41:00,360
on it. It may not give us the detail else,

679
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,920
but I don't think he would deny it or you know,

680
00:41:06,159 --> 00:41:08,320
say that there weren't okay.

681
00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:12,119
Speaker 1: And I guess that takes me to a fairly obvious question,

682
00:41:12,199 --> 00:41:15,679
which is, you know, he said that once his daughter

683
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,679
was born he couldn't kill kids. I think ellipsis anymore

684
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,280
or maybe implied anymore. And obviously she was born not

685
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,440
too long after he got out of the army. So

686
00:41:26,599 --> 00:41:29,960
is the speculation or assumption that you guys are operating

687
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,360
off of, is that his first victim or one of

688
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,519
his earlier victims could have been a child.

689
00:41:36,159 --> 00:41:38,599
Speaker 2: Well, the words he used in that interviews, I wouldn't

690
00:41:38,679 --> 00:41:41,800
mess with kids, and so I never took that that

691
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,559
meant that a kid was necessarily a victim versus, you know,

692
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,360
targeting someone who may have had a child with them

693
00:41:49,639 --> 00:41:53,960
or something like that. That's how I understood the words

694
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,559
he used. Messing with kids could mean all kinds of

695
00:41:56,599 --> 00:42:01,119
different things. It doesn't mean kid was necessarily a victim.

696
00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:04,039
And a fine example is when he talks about the

697
00:42:04,119 --> 00:42:07,400
couriers and he was, you know, in their garage and

698
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,960
he's looking through their vehicle. He wanted to find out

699
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,639
are their kids present, because that probably would have been

700
00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:15,880
a deal breaker for him at the time. So I

701
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,679
think that's probably more of what he was talking about.

702
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,440
But you know, unfortunately we don't have enough you know,

703
00:42:21,599 --> 00:42:25,119
information from him to be exact on what he was

704
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,000
you know, what he meant by that phrase. I'm not

705
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:30,840
I'm not going to mess with kids, but I don't

706
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,039
think it necessarily means that a kid was a victim

707
00:42:34,119 --> 00:42:35,239
or had to be a victim.

708
00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:37,599
Speaker 1: The one thing that I keep coming back to and

709
00:42:38,159 --> 00:42:42,480
I've talked to Bobby Chicone and then a few criminal psychologists.

710
00:42:42,519 --> 00:42:45,000
You know, things you should look out for are him

711
00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:49,159
returning to scenes so I mean, not even specific or

712
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,119
endemic to the Vall and Draft Hyatt disappearance, But do

713
00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:54,599
you think it's likely Keys would have returned to the

714
00:42:54,599 --> 00:42:58,079
scenes of his crimes, either to relive it or just

715
00:42:58,119 --> 00:43:01,079
to poke around and make sure you know, no one

716
00:43:01,119 --> 00:43:04,320
had seen him or disturbed the crime scene.

717
00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:10,159
Speaker 2: It's possible. We know that he sunk one of the

718
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,960
Washington victims in Lake Crescent. It's my opinion that wherever

719
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:18,480
he sunk the body is probably observable from the highway

720
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,559
there because he would have gone back and forth from

721
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,400
Port Angels to Nia Bay hundreds of times. And I

722
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,320
think memories are really important to him, and so I've

723
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,880
always thought that wherever the body was sunk on Lake Crescent,

724
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,079
it's probably within viewing distance of the highway because I

725
00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:36,480
think he would be able to relive that as he's

726
00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:38,519
driving back and forth, which he would have done hundreds

727
00:43:38,519 --> 00:43:42,519
of times. Whether he goes back to you know, other

728
00:43:42,599 --> 00:43:45,480
crime scenes, we just we don't really know, but it's

729
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:46,239
very possible.

730
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I mean, that's something because you look at

731
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,440
the couriers and like Essex as a place he could

732
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,920
feasibly drive through over and over and over again, particularly

733
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,239
between his cabin and his brothers and his family cabin.

734
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,960
And then you look at Deborah Feldman, and if what

735
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,280
he says is true, he brought her all the way

736
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,800
back up to an area he could drive through over

737
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,920
and over and over again. So to me, it seems like,

738
00:44:10,559 --> 00:44:13,599
you know, while the whole mythology is like going to

739
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,639
unknown places and taking people across state lines or whatever,

740
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,920
it seems that he always wanted to operate or at

741
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,320
least return the victims to an area that he knew

742
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:23,280
well and spent time in.

743
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: I think in some cases that was it. He did

744
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:32,079
talk about at one point a bunch of his early

745
00:44:32,159 --> 00:44:35,920
victims didn't get moved, so you know, the initial contact

746
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,239
with them was also the crime scene with them. So

747
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,760
I know later that kind of changes with the couriers

748
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,880
and stuff, But earlier on, I know he shared that

749
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,840
he wasn't moving them. You know, where he found him

750
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:51,280
is where the crime scene ended up being.

751
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I sent you a few from the Pacific Northwest,

752
00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,320
and I think Jonathan Corey is interesting and one of

753
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,159
those cases where there's a lot of elements and you

754
00:45:03,199 --> 00:45:06,800
can't really make sense of what happened. Paula and I

755
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,880
had discussed John Corey's disappearance first in our email exchanges

756
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,440
and then again during our pre interview, so I guess

757
00:45:14,559 --> 00:45:18,719
pressing pause on that. Celia Darlene Barnes and Wendy to

758
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,159
Hoop both have pretty straightforward disappearances, and I think Celia

759
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:27,480
Darlene Barnes closely matches them o that Keys had at

760
00:45:27,519 --> 00:45:29,599
the time that she disappeared, which is lay in wait

761
00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:33,719
in the woods hikers campers. Did you have time to

762
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,639
review those cases and do you have any thoughts or

763
00:45:35,679 --> 00:45:37,360
were you able to rule Keys out at all?

764
00:45:38,199 --> 00:45:42,119
Speaker 2: Let me take a quick look. There were someons able

765
00:45:42,119 --> 00:45:45,639
to rule out based on timeline information. So Wendy to

766
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,000
Hoop was one of the ones you mentioned. Yeah, Yeah,

767
00:45:49,079 --> 00:45:52,360
so that one there we actually have really good timeline

768
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:57,480
information on, and I think we can very comfortably remove

769
00:45:57,519 --> 00:46:00,519
him from that one. So she goes miss on April

770
00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:03,719
twenty second of two thousand and five down in Eugene,

771
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:09,159
organ We have emails from Keys from that time period,

772
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,719
and so from the emails we know that he's going

773
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,960
on a romantic weekend get away with his girlfriend. At

774
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,960
the time they end up heating down to Yakaman. They're

775
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,320
on a wine tasting tour that coincides with the receipts

776
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,039
we have as financial receipts, and then we also have

777
00:46:27,199 --> 00:46:31,480
the cell tower information from his Verizon phone. And on

778
00:46:31,519 --> 00:46:34,920
the day of her disappearance, on the twenty second, they're

779
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,960
in port Angelists. There's numerous purchases, there's cell tower hits

780
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,760
that coincide with that, and then on the twenty third

781
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,480
and twenty fourth, we had them traveling out on this

782
00:46:44,599 --> 00:46:48,119
wine tasting tour together. So it just seems like there's

783
00:46:48,159 --> 00:46:51,199
absolutely no room for him to debate down to Oregon

784
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,000
to committed crime during that weekend.

785
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,519
Speaker 1: This winery tour peaked my interest. I recalled looking into

786
00:46:57,599 --> 00:47:00,480
a John Doe who was found under an outBut at

787
00:47:00,519 --> 00:47:03,920
a vineyard somewhere in eastern Washington sometime in the mid

788
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,840
to late oughts, and he'd initially been on our radar

789
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,119
while looking at eastern Washington does and noting that around

790
00:47:10,159 --> 00:47:12,519
the time that this man's remains were found, Keys and

791
00:47:12,599 --> 00:47:14,800
Kimberly had been doing a lot of wine tasting in

792
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,440
and around Washington. I went back to try to find

793
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,480
this report. It turns out it was a John Doe

794
00:47:21,519 --> 00:47:25,800
of Caucasion or Hispanic ethnicity, whose skeletal remains were found

795
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,719
under a worker's cabin on a vineyard in nearby Shelan County.

796
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,039
And interestingly, within the last year or so, this dough

797
00:47:34,079 --> 00:47:37,519
has been removed from NamUs, which leads me to believe

798
00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:40,800
he's been identified. I reached out to the Shelane County

799
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,920
Coroner's office today for additional details and waiting for them

800
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:50,119
to return my voicemail. Okay, And then Celia Darlene Barnes

801
00:47:50,199 --> 00:47:52,079
was the other one.

802
00:47:52,159 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 2: I'm not as familiar with Barnes off the top of

803
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,280
my head. Can you give me a little more information

804
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,000
on that yet? Minded?

805
00:47:58,559 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, So she and her sister were hiking in Gold Hill, Oregon, which.

806
00:48:04,559 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 2: What was the date on that one, That is.

807
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,639
Speaker 1: September one, two thousand and two. And essentially she they

808
00:48:12,639 --> 00:48:16,320
were collecting cans I think, in this hiking area, and

809
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,559
her sister says that they got separated for you know,

810
00:48:19,679 --> 00:48:22,119
less than fifteen minutes before she realized that she was

811
00:48:22,199 --> 00:48:24,199
just gone. No sign of her whatsoever.

812
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,559
Speaker 2: Oh, I just I don't have much We don't have

813
00:48:26,639 --> 00:48:29,159
much timeline information on him in two thousand and two,

814
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,360
so I don't have anything that eliminates him. But I

815
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,000
don't have anything that puts him down there either, anything

816
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:40,880
like that. So it's hard to say. I guess I

817
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,199
have no opinion on that one, just because we don't

818
00:48:43,199 --> 00:48:47,199
have very very much information on Hemore's whereabouts at the time.

819
00:48:48,199 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 1: One thing I've looked into, especially now that we have

820
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:55,960
a better sense of Laplace, Louisiana and what was happening

821
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,639
there and your mention of him being on this wine

822
00:48:59,639 --> 00:49:03,400
tasting trip, there are a few instances where either he's

823
00:49:03,519 --> 00:49:07,360
with a girlfriend or potentially with his daughter, where suspicious

824
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,199
activity is happening, like his phone is off or he

825
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,800
disappears for a few hours. Is there any reason to

826
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,360
believe that, using Laplace as an example, that he and

827
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,400
his kid are in Lafayette and he puts her to

828
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,920
bed in a hotel and then goes out and is

829
00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:24,840
committing crimes or preparing for crimes.

830
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,159
Speaker 2: I think it's possible, especially towards the end, when again

831
00:49:29,199 --> 00:49:32,119
I think he's being more compulsive, taking more risks and

832
00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:35,000
stuff like that, because clearly that adds a lot of risks,

833
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:40,519
so it's possible. I think as far as like scouting

834
00:49:40,559 --> 00:49:43,679
out for future crimes and stuff like that, I think

835
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,440
he's always doing that. I think when he's out and about,

836
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,880
that's in the back of his head running all the time.

837
00:49:49,679 --> 00:49:53,760
So I could definitely see him scouting areas with family

838
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,679
members and friends while he's traveling.

839
00:49:55,719 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So I want to talk about a few like

840
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,960
timeline anomalies and forgive me because the first one I'm

841
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:05,480
going to bring up, I did not send you. It

842
00:50:05,519 --> 00:50:08,960
just came to mind. Heidi Keys, in an interview, said

843
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,119
that following the army or following Egypt, Keys went and

844
00:50:13,159 --> 00:50:16,119
spent six to eight either weeks or months with her

845
00:50:16,199 --> 00:50:20,599
in Maine, and I've it's just like an off the

846
00:50:20,639 --> 00:50:23,760
cuff remark in during one of her interviews. I can't

847
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,920
see any anything in the timeline. There's like a six

848
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,800
weeks period where I can't place him anywhere. But I

849
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,159
don't have what you have. Is there any truth to

850
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,000
this that he just like went up to Maine for

851
00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:35,960
six weeks.

852
00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:40,280
Speaker 2: I'm not familiar with that part of the timeline. I'm

853
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,800
definitely happy to research it. Do you know what time

854
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,679
that was that she's saying that he was up there.

855
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: She just said after he got back from the Middle East.

856
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:51,599
So I guess that would have been like late two thousand.

857
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, sixty eight weeks sounds like a long time. I

858
00:50:54,199 --> 00:50:56,760
could see him doing a short trip up there, but

859
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:58,360
I don't think he would have had that kind of

860
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,800
leave to be able to go up there for that

861
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,639
amount of time. I wasn't part of that interview, but

862
00:51:04,679 --> 00:51:06,960
I'm wondering if she's just kind of mistaken with time frames,

863
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,440
which is very easy for people to do.

864
00:51:09,079 --> 00:51:11,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of what I figured, And the only

865
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:12,960
thing I could make sense of is maybe he had

866
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,559
just had significant leave that he needed to use before

867
00:51:16,199 --> 00:51:17,199
he was discharged.

868
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it seems like a long time for

869
00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:20,679
him to be away.

870
00:51:21,079 --> 00:51:27,079
Speaker 1: Yeah. The other one and is there's two he has

871
00:51:27,119 --> 00:51:30,679
two fishing licenses the same weekend, one in Utah and

872
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,280
one in Alaska. I think I think it's a keen eye.

873
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:36,880
Have you guys looked into this and.

874
00:51:37,039 --> 00:51:40,199
Speaker 2: I haven't, And so I wondered, without seeing the original records,

875
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,199
if the Alaska one is a yearly license and then

876
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,079
the other license is like a shorter three day that

877
00:51:47,119 --> 00:51:48,760
you can buy when you're you know, out of state

878
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,079
and stuff like that. It doesn't cost so much. But

879
00:51:51,119 --> 00:51:54,519
I haven't looked at those two licenses to be able

880
00:51:54,519 --> 00:51:55,280
to DIFFERENTI that.

881
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,559
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I believe I don't have in front of me.

882
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,719
The Alaska one. He purports to have caught fish during

883
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:06,599
this weekend. But then this other fishing license alleges that

884
00:52:06,639 --> 00:52:07,960
he's in Utah that weekend.

885
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:10,559
Speaker 2: Interesting, I've never seen that before.

886
00:52:11,039 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 3: Okay.

887
00:52:12,599 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: And then this goes back to an offline conversation we

888
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,360
had about I guess analyzing and making sense of or

889
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,440
your methodology behind ruling him out based on travel records,

890
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,639
phone records, financial records. But there's a few times. The

891
00:52:25,679 --> 00:52:27,199
one that stands out the most to me is where

892
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:34,239
he like flies into Grand Forks, North Dakota, and then

893
00:52:35,039 --> 00:52:38,880
miraculously appears in Phoenix six days later, and there's no

894
00:52:39,119 --> 00:52:41,440
records sorting out how he got from one place to

895
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,320
the other. There's a few other instances of this in

896
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,000
the timeline. Do you attribute that to just a lack

897
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:54,000
of data or do you think it's you know, trains, carjackings,

898
00:52:54,079 --> 00:52:58,159
car theft. What do you what comes to mind when

899
00:52:58,199 --> 00:53:00,920
you see these? You know him disappearing in one place

900
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:01,960
and appearing somewhere else.

901
00:53:03,559 --> 00:53:06,159
Speaker 2: The simplest answer is probably just we weren't able to

902
00:53:06,199 --> 00:53:10,280
get the data, whether that's from the travel you know,

903
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,239
whether it's from the airlines or do you know, the

904
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,559
rental cars or whatnot. I think it's us just not

905
00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:17,800
being able to get the data. It's probably the easiest explanation.

906
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:21,280
You could come up with. Other explanations, Like you've implied,

907
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:24,039
maybe there's some criminal activity involved that gets him from

908
00:53:24,039 --> 00:53:26,000
one place to the other. I mean, that's very possible.

909
00:53:27,199 --> 00:53:29,079
We try to be very thorough and give as much

910
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,400
records as we could. Did we get everything, absolutely not.

911
00:53:32,599 --> 00:53:34,639
I know we did not get all the records that

912
00:53:34,639 --> 00:53:37,360
are out there, but we got what we could. So

913
00:53:38,079 --> 00:53:41,119
I would attribute some of those those facts that don't

914
00:53:41,119 --> 00:53:43,559
seem to line up really well probably what it was

915
00:53:43,599 --> 00:53:46,039
just we're missing data, okay.

916
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,159
Speaker 1: And then I guess similar to that, there are many

917
00:53:49,199 --> 00:53:52,840
trips where he's taking what seems to be just the

918
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:57,079
most like asinine way to get from one destination to another.

919
00:53:57,599 --> 00:53:59,960
And it's not like the couriers where he's like flying

920
00:54:00,039 --> 00:54:02,800
into Chicago and then driving you know, hundreds of miles.

921
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,840
It's like he's flying into this town for one day

922
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:07,920
and then flying to the next town a day later.

923
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,000
And I do attribute that to suspicious activity or just

924
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,599
to him being broke and basically getting from one place

925
00:54:14,639 --> 00:54:16,119
to the next the cheapest way possible.

926
00:54:17,599 --> 00:54:21,679
Speaker 2: It could be probably both. Possibly. I don't think he

927
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,000
does a lot of stuff randomly, So I think whatever

928
00:54:25,039 --> 00:54:28,239
it is in his mind, he's got purpose in everything

929
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:33,039
he does. Now, whether he money's a factor, which I

930
00:54:33,039 --> 00:54:34,840
don't know how much. He never talked about money being

931
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:36,880
a factor, And I think that's you know where the

932
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,199
bank robberies and you know, getting that cash comes into

933
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,960
play with, you know, him being able to take these

934
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,519
trips and do these type of things. But yeah, I

935
00:54:46,519 --> 00:54:48,400
think there's purpose and everything he does. I don't think

936
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:49,800
it's it's accidental.

937
00:54:50,519 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 1: Can you tell me a little bit about the work

938
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,000
you're doing with the cold case unit right now? We

939
00:54:55,079 --> 00:54:56,400
talked about that a couple of days ago.

940
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:02,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, so maybe a little year ago. I was working

941
00:55:02,159 --> 00:55:05,440
with when the Sheriff's office here on the Peninsula, and

942
00:55:05,559 --> 00:55:10,159
they've got a really gifted digital forensic detective. He does

943
00:55:10,199 --> 00:55:12,760
all their examination of cell phones and computers and a

944
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,400
lot of child crimes and we were just talking about

945
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:20,480
how the forensic software is so much better today than

946
00:55:20,519 --> 00:55:22,800
it was ten years ago. And so we start talking

947
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,000
about the keys case and about how we initially looked

948
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,360
at his computers back in twenty twelve. That's where deblah

949
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,960
Feldman's name popped up and kind of brought her to

950
00:55:32,039 --> 00:55:35,119
the radar, and we just thought, hey, I wonder what

951
00:55:35,599 --> 00:55:38,599
we could find an addition now with this latest creative

952
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,760
software that's out there, and so we talked with Anchorage.

953
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,599
Anchorage thought was a great idea. So we initially sent

954
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:48,840
down a copy of his laptop computer. This is a

955
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,960
laptop that he had in Texas with him, and let

956
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,880
this cold case start taking a look at it and

957
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:57,880
see what else might be on there and what this

958
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,719
other software might be able to do. And we've had

959
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:05,719
some success with that. We found those maps from Louisiana

960
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,159
on there that may coincide with the cash that I

961
00:56:08,199 --> 00:56:11,519
know you guys have talked about, and so we're taking

962
00:56:11,559 --> 00:56:14,840
a look at that. And then just more recently, we decide, well,

963
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,519
let's bring down all the other digital evidence that we

964
00:56:17,599 --> 00:56:20,679
have two keys and take a look at that as well.

965
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:25,199
So we've got those items down here now in process

966
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:27,000
of getting them over to the cold case for those

967
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,480
guys to start taking a look at those, and then

968
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,280
just recognizing that this past year we've had three investigators

969
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,559
retired that we're working the Keys case. There's a few

970
00:56:38,599 --> 00:56:40,760
of us that are left, but that's not going to

971
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,400
last forever, and we've recognized that we also have a

972
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,719
lot of physical evidence that probably needs to be looked

973
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,360
at a second time, especially since we know so much more.

974
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,760
We've had time to digest everything that Keys talked to

975
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:57,719
us over those twenty six different interviews, and so we've

976
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:03,840
also brought down all the maps, there's miscellaneous documents, there's emails,

977
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,840
there's books, I know, there's survival books that we got

978
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,199
out of one of the search warrants out of the

979
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:12,639
northeast there. So we're going to go and take a

980
00:57:12,639 --> 00:57:16,320
look through all that and then do detailed reports and

981
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,639
photograph everything and eventually get that all into the case

982
00:57:19,639 --> 00:57:23,159
file and then you know, for you know, persons like

983
00:57:23,199 --> 00:57:25,719
yourself that are interested in that, that should be available

984
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,199
through FOYA then down the road. But we're hoping that

985
00:57:28,199 --> 00:57:30,480
maybe we'll see some new clues, see things now with

986
00:57:30,599 --> 00:57:33,039
fresh set of eyes that maybe got missed early on

987
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:37,079
because when those search warrants happened and the evidence was

988
00:57:37,119 --> 00:57:40,840
initially looked at, we didn't know everything about his crimes

989
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,159
at that point, because it wasn't until you know, later

990
00:57:43,199 --> 00:57:45,519
in twenty twelve that he started opening up about some

991
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:48,119
of these other crimes, and a lot of this evidence

992
00:57:48,119 --> 00:57:52,239
had initially been looked at under the guys of Samantha Konig,

993
00:57:52,679 --> 00:57:54,840
but not so much about the other crimes that he

994
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,280
later talked about. So I'm excited that maybe we'll get

995
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:00,760
some some you know, tips or leads that'll come on

996
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:01,079
of that.

997
00:58:02,079 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: Have you found anything interesting through that work as of

998
00:58:05,079 --> 00:58:06,440
yet now yet.

999
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,159
Speaker 2: We haven't started yet, to be honest. So just before today,

1000
00:58:10,199 --> 00:58:11,960
I was sort of just for coming on with you.

1001
00:58:12,039 --> 00:58:14,000
I was talking to one of the guys that heads

1002
00:58:14,039 --> 00:58:16,800
up to Cold Case Unit to talk about our plans

1003
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:18,920
over the next couple of weeks of you know, getting

1004
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:19,880
this review schedule.

1005
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,679
Speaker 1: It's interesting because the way Keys describes that he's like

1006
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,920
a luddite, but he seemed to have a pretty active

1007
00:58:27,719 --> 00:58:33,599
online life and seem to use the Internet and digital

1008
00:58:33,639 --> 00:58:37,760
media quite frequently, at least in the researching of his

1009
00:58:38,079 --> 00:58:41,639
crimes or the prepping for his crimes. We've been doing

1010
00:58:41,679 --> 00:58:44,400
a bunch of like analysis of Google trends and then

1011
00:58:44,519 --> 00:58:48,039
data mining, you know, Keys's information gets leaked in like

1012
00:58:48,079 --> 00:58:50,519
a data leak, and then you can see like, oh,

1013
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:52,719
he had this email address that we didn't know about,

1014
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,559
or he had this account on discuss where he's commenting

1015
00:58:55,639 --> 00:59:00,000
and arguing with people about the culture in the middle least.

1016
00:59:00,559 --> 00:59:02,519
Have you guys looked at any of that, you know?

1017
00:59:02,599 --> 00:59:05,760
The one that stands out to me is he's fighting

1018
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:10,920
with someone on a web forum and says, he here's

1019
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:16,079
my Skype account, say it to my face, and b says, well,

1020
00:59:16,119 --> 00:59:20,000
you know, supposing I'm a serial killer who's killed fifty

1021
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:24,280
plus people. So it's almost like it was this place

1022
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:29,840
where he could hyperbolically, I guess, externalize his interior life.

1023
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,920
But I also wonder if you think there's anything important

1024
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,119
we can glean from some of this online activity.

1025
00:59:36,239 --> 00:59:38,039
Speaker 2: I'm not really familiar with some of the stuff you're

1026
00:59:38,039 --> 00:59:39,679
talking about. I love to take a look at it.

1027
00:59:40,719 --> 00:59:44,519
I know that, especially later and later on during his crimes,

1028
00:59:44,599 --> 00:59:47,239
especially as we get closer to twenty twelve, he seemed

1029
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,400
more active and seemed to be he would take greater risks.

1030
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:53,880
And now early on he talked about how he would,

1031
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:57,199
you know, go to computers in the library, and you know,

1032
00:59:57,280 --> 00:59:59,360
he wouldn't do anything on home stuff, and if he did,

1033
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,559
he was super careful. He talked about how if he

1034
01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:06,639
wanted to, you know, look for news about a particular victim,

1035
01:00:06,719 --> 01:00:08,639
he wouldn't put in the person's name or anything like

1036
01:00:08,679 --> 01:00:12,239
that he would bring up. He would type in a

1037
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:14,639
newspaper in the area and then go through the newspaper.

1038
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:17,280
So as he's not leaving much of a digital footprint,

1039
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,159
it's clear that as things went on he got more

1040
01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:24,159
and more careless with his digital footprint, if you will

1041
01:00:24,159 --> 01:00:24,519
out there.

1042
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,599
Speaker 1: The other thing that's interesting, and this is more of

1043
01:00:27,639 --> 01:00:30,239
a like if you haven't thought of it, avenue that

1044
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,480
might be worth looking into, is Google trends will track

1045
01:00:33,639 --> 01:00:37,159
like when a Google search term peaks in a specific location.

1046
01:00:38,599 --> 01:00:41,760
And so what we've been doing is essentially looking for

1047
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:47,440
potential keys victims who disappeared significantly before there was any

1048
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:51,440
media coverage about their disappearance, and looking to see if

1049
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,800
search is trended specifically in Anchorage or specifically in Nea

1050
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,920
Bay or western Washington. And it's not an exact sign

1051
01:01:00,159 --> 01:01:03,159
but I'm also you know, I have no business operating

1052
01:01:03,239 --> 01:01:06,840
this kind of investigation, but someone smarter than me might

1053
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,880
be able to actually glean some pretty important information or

1054
01:01:10,039 --> 01:01:13,519
relevant information from this, because you know, if like someone

1055
01:01:13,559 --> 01:01:16,880
in Alaska is searching James Lamar Tidwell two weeks before

1056
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:19,880
James la mart Tidwell's reported missing, like that seems relevant.

1057
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it might be. Although I remember, as I was

1058
01:01:24,039 --> 01:01:26,280
preparing to talk to you today, I was reviewing some

1059
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,639
of the interviews and he talked about how he never

1060
01:01:29,679 --> 01:01:35,960
knew anyone's names till after he kidnapped them. Really, yeah,

1061
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:37,719
it was in one of the interviews and he was

1062
01:01:37,719 --> 01:01:42,000
talking about having their driver's license. And actually it's an

1063
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:47,719
interview where the recording equipment didn't capture the It's the

1064
01:01:47,719 --> 01:01:50,199
second half of an interview, so we only have the

1065
01:01:50,239 --> 01:01:53,239
notes from the agent that was observing, you know, through

1066
01:01:53,239 --> 01:01:57,519
the video feed. But that was a very interesting comment

1067
01:01:57,599 --> 01:02:00,599
where he talked about how he never knew anyone's names

1068
01:02:00,679 --> 01:02:02,880
until he grabbed them, and then he knew that from

1069
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:05,599
their driver's license or IDs.

1070
01:02:06,239 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 1: And do you suspect he kept trophies and that they're

1071
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:10,519
just cashed somewhere.

1072
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:15,719
Speaker 2: I do think he Yeah, I do think he kept memoirs,

1073
01:02:16,639 --> 01:02:20,800
and some of our investigators have always thought that finding

1074
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,840
a cash maybe the only way we ever really you know,

1075
01:02:24,079 --> 01:02:27,000
absolutely identify some of these other victims because we know

1076
01:02:27,079 --> 01:02:30,360
that he kept souvenirs in these caches.

1077
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was I guess the excitement and disappointment with

1078
01:02:33,519 --> 01:02:38,320
laplace there a not being a cash anymore, and be

1079
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,880
at least as it's reported on, there were no trophies

1080
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:42,159
in it.

1081
01:02:42,719 --> 01:02:45,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, I mean, who knows what the

1082
01:02:45,679 --> 01:02:47,519
trophies could be. It could be simple as an ID,

1083
01:02:47,719 --> 01:02:50,599
could be jewelry that for us maybe has some potential

1084
01:02:50,679 --> 01:02:53,320
DNA evidence on there. You know, it could be something

1085
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:56,280
simple like that, but something hopefully we could capitalize on

1086
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:58,760
if we over got our hands on it.

1087
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,719
Speaker 1: Circling back to your methodology, and we talked about this,

1088
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:03,920
but just so the listeners can hear it from you

1089
01:03:04,119 --> 01:03:09,400
and not me, how are you analyzing and using financial records,

1090
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:13,440
cell phone records, and travel records too, I guess rule

1091
01:03:13,519 --> 01:03:17,079
him unlikely or just to place him anywhere at any

1092
01:03:17,079 --> 01:03:17,599
given time.

1093
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:26,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, so for certain years in two thousand, well, for

1094
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,920
financial records, we've got stuff all the way back to

1095
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,880
the late nineties in some cases and then all the

1096
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,440
way through twenty twelve. But some years are definitely better

1097
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:38,000
than others as far as financial information. But generally we've

1098
01:03:38,039 --> 01:03:40,440
got you know, banks, accom, credit cards, stuff like that,

1099
01:03:40,639 --> 01:03:42,440
and so what we'll do is we'll take a look

1100
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,800
and you've got to differentiate between the transaction date, which

1101
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,360
is the date that the purchase occurred, and then the

1102
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,719
posting date, because that's usually a day or two later.

1103
01:03:52,559 --> 01:03:54,920
But that's a data point for us because it'll indicate

1104
01:03:55,079 --> 01:03:59,280
usually you know, sitty in place and store that the

1105
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:04,800
transaction occurred. With cell phone records, he had a work

1106
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:07,760
cell phone when he was working for the Macaw tribe

1107
01:04:08,639 --> 01:04:11,119
and that was a Verizon phone at the time, and

1108
01:04:11,159 --> 01:04:14,440
so Verizon on their bills, which he never saws that

1109
01:04:14,519 --> 01:04:17,519
went right to the tribe, but they would show that

1110
01:04:17,559 --> 01:04:20,440
the cell tower that the call would initiate off of.

1111
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:24,599
Just take city and state of where that cell tower

1112
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:26,960
was and out on the peninsula where there's very few

1113
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,920
cell tower especially back then, super helpful, so we can

1114
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,440
see Ania Bay cell tower hit. That really locks him

1115
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,239
into a fairly small area where he could be. And

1116
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:40,400
so from two thousand and three almost in the two

1117
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:42,079
thousand and four and then all the way till he

1118
01:04:42,159 --> 01:04:46,039
leaves for Alaska. We have really good cell data for

1119
01:04:46,119 --> 01:04:48,280
him now if he's got his phone turned off, which

1120
01:04:48,719 --> 01:04:50,920
was a habit of his on weekends. On weekends would

1121
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,480
often see that the phone's got almost no activity, there's

1122
01:04:53,519 --> 01:04:57,719
no nothing on it, and that's not unusual. We see

1123
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,440
that year after year with him. But if we can

1124
01:05:00,559 --> 01:05:03,800
place them somewhere, you know, that's really helpful for us

1125
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,639
when we're trying to look and consider a missing person's

1126
01:05:06,679 --> 01:05:08,760
case or a homicide whether he could be involved, if

1127
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:10,480
we could put him somewhere else, and that's a pretty

1128
01:05:10,519 --> 01:05:13,639
good clue that he's probably not involved in that one.

1129
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:19,440
And then we've got other records. We've got emails where

1130
01:05:19,559 --> 01:05:21,960
you know, he's talking with different people and you know,

1131
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:24,159
he'll talk about things that he's doing or going to

1132
01:05:24,239 --> 01:05:27,000
do or had done again. We can't always take them

1133
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,519
one hundred percent for his word because he was he

1134
01:05:29,599 --> 01:05:33,039
was a massive cheater. He cheated on his girlfriends and

1135
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:35,480
you know, people that he was involved with all the time.

1136
01:05:35,559 --> 01:05:38,199
So sometimes I think there's some white lives in those

1137
01:05:38,199 --> 01:05:41,559
emails because of you know, some of the cheating that

1138
01:05:41,639 --> 01:05:44,840
was going on. But you know, again, those are data

1139
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,400
points that we can get some information about what was happening.

1140
01:05:47,599 --> 01:05:49,400
I think I shared with you earlier about the weekend

1141
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:52,119
where he you know, went on the wine tasting tour.

1142
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:54,800
You know, those emails are really valuable for giving context

1143
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:57,320
of what we're seeing with the financials and seeing with

1144
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:00,960
the phone records. I haven't looked a lot at the

1145
01:06:01,079 --> 01:06:04,280
phone records after two thousand and seven. I've been fairly

1146
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,280
focused on the Washington State victims, but I know they've

1147
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:09,960
got a lot of records up there, and as you've

1148
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:12,400
sent us different cases that you're interested, and I've been

1149
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:16,599
able to tap into those resources to try to figure

1150
01:06:16,599 --> 01:06:18,280
out where he is at a given time.

1151
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: I think the thing that annoys me with keys, and

1152
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:27,239
it's why it's like so hard to ignore Auckham's razor

1153
01:06:27,559 --> 01:06:30,320
is his whole thing was like committing his crimes in

1154
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:33,159
a way that concealed his crimes, doing something when he's

1155
01:06:33,239 --> 01:06:36,760
very busy, or like quickly leaving in an area. So

1156
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,960
sometimes I struggle with like, we'll phone records place him

1157
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:42,039
here within hours of the crime, and it's like, well,

1158
01:06:42,039 --> 01:06:44,679
but isn't that his whole mo is like to make

1159
01:06:44,719 --> 01:06:46,559
it look like he's not where the crime occurred.

1160
01:06:47,039 --> 01:06:49,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the challenge that we have is you know,

1161
01:06:49,679 --> 01:06:52,440
when I had a chance to talk to him, and

1162
01:06:52,519 --> 01:06:56,079
he made it clear that when I talked to him,

1163
01:06:56,079 --> 01:06:57,440
I wanted to find out if he was using the

1164
01:06:57,639 --> 01:07:00,920
cell phone to create a false almy, and he it

1165
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,119
was clear he didn't know that the cell phone records

1166
01:07:03,199 --> 01:07:06,760
were showing the cell tower data. And then it also

1167
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:09,159
became clear that he didn't want to get in trouble

1168
01:07:09,199 --> 01:07:11,519
with his work for having the phone. You know, something

1169
01:07:11,559 --> 01:07:13,559
happened to it by you know, letting his daughter hang

1170
01:07:13,599 --> 01:07:16,199
on to it or something like that. So I think

1171
01:07:16,239 --> 01:07:18,440
we can trust the records for what they are, but

1172
01:07:18,519 --> 01:07:22,800
there's clearly limitations. We might have, you know, a particular

1173
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:27,000
phone call that hits at particular time, but it doesn't

1174
01:07:27,079 --> 01:07:30,159
lock him down, you know, to a timeframe where it's

1175
01:07:30,159 --> 01:07:33,159
not impossible for him to drive a certain distance, committed

1176
01:07:33,199 --> 01:07:35,400
crime and come back before the next cell tower hit.

1177
01:07:35,719 --> 01:07:39,960
So there are limitations in the records. So they can

1178
01:07:40,039 --> 01:07:43,480
be good, but they definitely have limitations in some cases.

1179
01:07:50,079 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 1: And while our conversation up to this point had been

1180
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:56,800
incredibly interesting other than a few small details in their

1181
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:01,519
belief of multiple Canadian victims. Hallah had revealed much new information,

1182
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:06,920
particularly about details he knew or suspected about the Washington victims,

1183
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:11,519
things Keys might have shared with him, or unreleased information

1184
01:08:11,719 --> 01:08:15,800
from the letter Keys wrote that was later confiscated. But

1185
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:19,239
after about an hour of talking, Hollow started to slip

1186
01:08:19,279 --> 01:08:26,319
in new details, interesting tidbits, unknown FBI theories, new information

1187
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,800
that would be immensely helpful in our attempt to identify

1188
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:36,079
Keys's unknown victims. So what do you think, like for

1189
01:08:36,159 --> 01:08:39,680
independent researchers or journalists, where do you think they can

1190
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:43,399
be most effective and helpful in investigating this case.

1191
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 2: There's a couple of investigator avenues I've thought about. You know,

1192
01:08:48,239 --> 01:08:51,439
in one of his interviews with us, he talks the

1193
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,840
question that was asked of him was have any of

1194
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,000
his victims been located by law enforcement aside from the

1195
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,239
ones that he's directed us too, And you tell us

1196
01:09:00,279 --> 01:09:03,560
he gives us a hypothetical about, you know, a body

1197
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:07,279
being recovered in the water that is mistaken as you know,

1198
01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:10,439
presumably like a drowning or you know, some certain natural costs,

1199
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:14,319
not a homicidal costs, but in fact it was actually him.

1200
01:09:15,159 --> 01:09:17,239
I think he's telling us a lot more than you

1201
01:09:17,239 --> 01:09:19,920
know when he calls it a hypothetical, but I think

1202
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,439
that's probably hitting pretty close to the truth of one

1203
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:27,760
of his victims. And so I think I've thought about

1204
01:09:28,079 --> 01:09:31,800
looking in areas where he's been known to frequent or

1205
01:09:32,079 --> 01:09:34,319
where we catch him traveling or something like that, and

1206
01:09:34,359 --> 01:09:41,399
looking for unattended drownings and potentially maybe we see something

1207
01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:45,479
there that can take a closer look at. And his

1208
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:48,760
example is an excellent example. I've been involved in cases

1209
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:51,479
with drowning victims and where bodies have been in the

1210
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:53,880
water for you know, even just a week or two,

1211
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,960
and the deterioration of the body is just drastic. It's

1212
01:09:58,079 --> 01:10:01,680
very dramatic. And I can see where see a strangulation

1213
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:04,840
or some other cause of death such as that could

1214
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:07,960
be mistaken when the body goes through so much change

1215
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:11,000
when it's in water. But that was one avenue I

1216
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:14,119
thought about. Now, if you look statistically, I think there's

1217
01:10:14,359 --> 01:10:17,479
thirty eight hundred to four thousand drownings a year back

1218
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:23,439
in that timeframe. You know, if you could eliminate the

1219
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:26,159
ones where there was you know, witnesses present, that would

1220
01:10:26,319 --> 01:10:29,720
knock down a huge number and then look at kind

1221
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:33,600
of the ones where no one was around, and then

1222
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:35,560
take a look at that and see if that maybe

1223
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:36,800
produces a clue or not.

1224
01:10:37,359 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 1: There's a case out of eastern Washington, Alice Ida looney A.

1225
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:48,079
She might even be a Callville Reservation native, but she

1226
01:10:48,359 --> 01:10:53,079
had gone missing outside of either Wenatchi or Ellensburg and

1227
01:10:53,239 --> 01:10:58,319
was later found in a stream. And cause of death,

1228
01:10:58,359 --> 01:11:02,000
I think still to this day, remains determined. No one

1229
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,359
can account for why she would have been in that area.

1230
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:06,720
There was like an outdoor toilet nearby. It was in

1231
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:11,359
a pretty isolated area, not far from I ninety. Have

1232
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:12,840
you guys heard of this case at all.

1233
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 2: I've not heard of that one, So I'm interested in

1234
01:11:15,039 --> 01:11:16,359
doing a little more research on that.

1235
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:18,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one that stood out that I looked into

1236
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:20,800
years ago and I kind of fell off my radar

1237
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,920
to you just mentioned that through your work with the

1238
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:26,880
Cold Case Division, you found that you know, he had

1239
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:28,960
been working on the boat, not Inna Bay, but at

1240
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:31,600
a location in Squim. Is there any more you can

1241
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:34,319
share about that or how you came to know that information?

1242
01:11:35,159 --> 01:11:37,600
Speaker 2: And it's actually when I spoke to you offline last

1243
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:40,960
week I was wrong about Squim Swim and Port Angelis

1244
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,800
from next to each other. I have lots of cases

1245
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:46,279
involving both places. So it was actually Port Angelis. Okay,

1246
01:11:46,319 --> 01:11:51,000
So there was there's a it's a private residence. It's

1247
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:52,840
an area in Port Angelis, so you can find it

1248
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:55,199
on the map to kind of get an overview of like, okay,

1249
01:11:55,199 --> 01:11:59,119
it's this area and reveal the address or anything like that.

1250
01:12:00,039 --> 01:12:02,800
But some of the cold case detectives were following up

1251
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,720
on some leads and stuff and found this particular residence.

1252
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:10,119
It was associated with a friend of keys, and so

1253
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,239
interviewing this couple that owned the residents, they learned that, yeah,

1254
01:12:14,359 --> 01:12:16,359
he's had his boat in there and was doing a

1255
01:12:16,399 --> 01:12:19,600
lot of his boat work at that time at this

1256
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:22,840
particular location, which was new to us. We assumed he

1257
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:25,800
had hauled the boat all the way to Nia Bay

1258
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:27,439
and was doing a lot of the work on it there.

1259
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:30,119
For Angels actually makes a lot of sense because that's

1260
01:12:30,159 --> 01:12:32,720
where all the stores are where he would have gone

1261
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:35,039
to get supplies and stuff to fix up the boat.

1262
01:12:35,159 --> 01:12:38,560
So it makes perfect sense. But again another data point

1263
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:41,279
where okay, here's a location where you know he was

1264
01:12:41,319 --> 01:12:44,399
working on his boat and had access to and so

1265
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:46,880
we've been invited to go out and take a look

1266
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:49,439
at the area in the future and just check it

1267
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:52,720
out for whatever may becomes significant from that. But that

1268
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:54,920
was something new that we learned from this cold case

1269
01:12:55,479 --> 01:12:56,399
that's been working on.

1270
01:12:56,279 --> 01:13:00,119
Speaker 1: This Yeah, that's really interesting speaking of Fort Angelis, do

1271
01:13:00,159 --> 01:13:03,359
you have any thoughts or theories or any additional information

1272
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:05,119
on where that cash might.

1273
01:13:05,039 --> 01:13:10,520
Speaker 2: Be a million dollar questions. It's such a vast area

1274
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:15,039
like it could be anywhere. That was one of the

1275
01:13:15,119 --> 01:13:19,079
things we were really excited about when he's committed suicide

1276
01:13:19,119 --> 01:13:22,279
on that Sunday. That following day on Monday was when

1277
01:13:22,399 --> 01:13:26,399
he was tentably agreeing to meet with us to take

1278
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:29,560
us to the Port Angelo's cash. We had been working

1279
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:33,159
with our technical people to rig up a video system

1280
01:13:33,199 --> 01:13:36,359
that would have linked back to anchorage, would have been

1281
01:13:36,359 --> 01:13:39,119
tied in with Google Maps, so he could direct us

1282
01:13:39,119 --> 01:13:41,279
and then also see a live feed from the team

1283
01:13:41,319 --> 01:13:45,119
on the ground. We were really excited about that, and

1284
01:13:45,159 --> 01:13:47,479
that was a huge disappointment in many ways when he

1285
01:13:48,039 --> 01:13:50,479
took his own life, but that was something we were

1286
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:53,520
really looking forward to finding that cash.

1287
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:58,640
Speaker 1: Do you think the timing of his suicide was reactive,

1288
01:14:00,079 --> 01:14:02,880
I guess specifically. Do you think it's because he knew

1289
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:06,840
something was coming for example, this Port Angeleis search or

1290
01:14:07,119 --> 01:14:08,640
I believe there was also going to be a search

1291
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:12,000
of Tupper Lake and the Raquet River Or do you

1292
01:14:12,039 --> 01:14:14,720
think it was just by means, like that was the

1293
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:17,439
first opportunity he got to kill himself, which doesn't seem

1294
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:19,640
the case because he was doing you know, finger painting

1295
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:20,920
and blood long before this.

1296
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think there was anything coming up that

1297
01:14:25,199 --> 01:14:28,359
was creating the time table that he chose. I think

1298
01:14:28,399 --> 01:14:33,000
opportunity is probably part of it. It's also around that

1299
01:14:33,079 --> 01:14:36,000
time where I think he realized he wasn't going to

1300
01:14:36,039 --> 01:14:38,079
get the death penalty in the year, Like he was

1301
01:14:38,119 --> 01:14:41,720
realizing how the federal system really works when it comes

1302
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:44,479
to death toal the cases, and that reality was setting

1303
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:47,840
in and I don't think he was willing to wait

1304
01:14:48,079 --> 01:14:49,640
to see that play out.

1305
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 1: The FBI has recently released new details about what was

1306
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:57,199
found in a cell upon his death, And I don't know.

1307
01:14:57,239 --> 01:14:59,760
Maybe I'm cynical and maybe I've spent too much time

1308
01:15:00,119 --> 01:15:02,880
with keys, but to me, it just seems like he's

1309
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:05,279
being an asshole, Like do you think there's value to

1310
01:15:05,319 --> 01:15:08,239
the caracol, or if only the blood were mine, any

1311
01:15:08,279 --> 01:15:09,800
of that, or do you think that's just him being

1312
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:10,239
a jerk.

1313
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:14,199
Speaker 2: I don't know what to make of that. I know

1314
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:18,680
that the letter that he left behind, we were very

1315
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,760
hopeful that it was going to contain, you know, a

1316
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:23,800
list of all his victims and you know, all the

1317
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:27,439
secrets that he was holding, And fortunately he didn't contain

1318
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:31,520
any of that, nothing really helpful at all. So I

1319
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:34,479
think in many ways he got the last laugh because

1320
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:38,199
he knew how much we really wanted to have that information,

1321
01:15:38,279 --> 01:15:42,000
to know who these other victims were, and I think, yeah,

1322
01:15:42,119 --> 01:15:44,239
he was happy to take that to the grave with them.

1323
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's always been my thought. It's like, if this

1324
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:51,239
guy didn't want to share information with you, I find

1325
01:15:51,239 --> 01:15:54,560
it hard to believe that in his last act of control,

1326
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:56,880
he was going to relinquish this information that he's been

1327
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:58,199
trying to keep for me this whole time.

1328
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:02,000
Speaker 2: It was hopeful, hopeful thinking, you know.

1329
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:05,319
Speaker 1: Going back to cashing, do you think it's likely that

1330
01:16:05,359 --> 01:16:08,479
there are more cases in the Olympic Peninsula than just

1331
01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:11,239
the support Angela's cash.

1332
01:16:11,359 --> 01:16:14,079
Speaker 2: Our impression is we think there's two. I think there's

1333
01:16:14,119 --> 01:16:17,800
two on the peninsula, so he kind of at one

1334
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:21,800
point indicated plural that there was more than one. I

1335
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:24,159
think it's one of the last interviews we had with him,

1336
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:26,239
but yeah, we do think there's more than one on

1337
01:16:26,279 --> 01:16:26,920
the peninsula.

1338
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 1: To me, this previously unknown boat workshop on the outskirts

1339
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:38,920
of Port Angelus and the now two Olympic Peninsula caches,

1340
01:16:40,159 --> 01:16:45,000
they weren't necessarily two separate discussions. The exact area where

1341
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:47,560
this workshop turned out to be was not one foreign

1342
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:51,319
to us or our investigation into Keys by any stretch,

1343
01:16:52,199 --> 01:16:54,840
And as I poked around on Google Maps, I started

1344
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:58,600
to see connections between this location and other locations that

1345
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:01,279
have come up, and I couldn't help but think that

1346
01:17:01,399 --> 01:17:04,279
this specific area would not only make sense as a

1347
01:17:04,319 --> 01:17:07,800
location for a cash, but would make more sense than

1348
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:13,680
any other location for a cash From there, I wanted

1349
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:18,479
to pivot to Utah and Wyoming, but Halla pretty quickly

1350
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:21,640
surprised me with a pivot of his own regarding a

1351
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:25,880
two thousand and one Keys victim, one he refers to

1352
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:31,199
as the first Keys victim, and that fundamental disagreement aside,

1353
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:34,039
It's clear they have a better sense of both the

1354
01:17:34,039 --> 01:17:37,760
timeline and location of what I'll refer to as his

1355
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:44,640
first post army victim. My understanding is that the general

1356
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:48,399
consensus is his earlier crimes are largely in or surrounding

1357
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:51,680
Washington State, and I wonder, you know, the first time

1358
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:54,000
we have him taking what appears to be a random

1359
01:17:54,039 --> 01:17:56,600
trip out of Washington States two thousand and four, when

1360
01:17:56,600 --> 01:17:59,239
it goes to Utah, do you have an understanding like,

1361
01:17:59,359 --> 01:18:02,439
was there in ten there whether personal or criminal, or

1362
01:18:03,159 --> 01:18:05,399
is that kind of where he started. I guess the

1363
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:08,159
mo of traveling out of state to commit his crimes.

1364
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 2: I don't know. I was so much about two thousand

1365
01:18:11,439 --> 01:18:14,760
and four. But our understanding from him is, if you

1366
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:18,239
think about the first homicide, which is a fairly short

1367
01:18:18,239 --> 01:18:21,079
time period. So he gets discharged from the army in

1368
01:18:21,119 --> 01:18:23,600
July two thousand and one, daughter is born the end

1369
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:26,399
of October of two thousand and one, and sometime in

1370
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:29,479
there is when the first homicide occurs. Our understanding from

1371
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:32,199
him is that is not a Washington State homicide, so

1372
01:18:32,279 --> 01:18:35,760
that is an out of state homicide. He's never given

1373
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:39,680
us any clues on where that is. I've always suspected

1374
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:42,960
there's an organ victim out there, just a hunch of mine.

1375
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:45,560
He never talked about organ with us, but we know

1376
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:48,880
he frequented Oregon quite a bit. It's easy to get

1377
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:51,159
to from Washington State. He had a family there that

1378
01:18:51,199 --> 01:18:54,880
he would visit. But pure speculation on our part. But

1379
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:57,880
the first victim we do believe is outside of Washington State.

1380
01:18:59,199 --> 01:19:04,119
So I think whoever that is in what state is

1381
01:19:04,159 --> 01:19:06,359
we just don't know. But I think that's his first

1382
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:09,079
out of state homicide in Washington.

1383
01:19:10,119 --> 01:19:12,800
Speaker 1: Do you think Washington State is limited to just the

1384
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:14,239
four victims that he described?

1385
01:19:15,079 --> 01:19:17,520
Speaker 2: I do. I think that's a good number. So if

1386
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:21,399
you if you break down on the assumption that the

1387
01:19:21,399 --> 01:19:25,520
eleven isn't correct for at least us victims, you know,

1388
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:28,560
we've got four that are accounted for, We've got Samantha,

1389
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:30,920
we've got the couriers, and we've got Deborah. That leaves

1390
01:19:31,119 --> 01:19:35,319
seven four for Washington State. I think that's an accurate number.

1391
01:19:35,319 --> 01:19:38,720
I have no reason to believe he's exaggerating or minimizing

1392
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:42,439
on that. That leaves us three others. We believe his

1393
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:44,840
first victim was not in Washington State, So I think

1394
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:47,800
there's one to look at. There's some people that think

1395
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:51,720
there's a Texas victim, and that's more on Punch, I

1396
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:53,720
think than anything else. I mean, he seemed to indicate

1397
01:19:53,760 --> 01:19:57,159
that there wasn't a Texas victim, but there's definitely a

1398
01:19:57,199 --> 01:20:01,479
lot of suspicious activity in Texas going and then you know,

1399
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:04,359
it leaves another state. So it's really a needle in

1400
01:20:04,359 --> 01:20:07,399
the haystack. I mean, there's only really aside from the

1401
01:20:07,479 --> 01:20:10,720
Washington victims, there's three from outside of Washington that we're

1402
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:16,039
really looking for. And it sounds like he became more active,

1403
01:20:16,239 --> 01:20:18,119
like his things kind of moved on as we get

1404
01:20:18,119 --> 01:20:22,079
closer to twenty twelve, like some of those I think

1405
01:20:22,079 --> 01:20:25,520
are probably going to fall in that timeframe. But yeah,

1406
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:28,880
that's that's a challenge for investigators, for anyone looking into

1407
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:29,439
this case.

1408
01:20:30,359 --> 01:20:33,000
Speaker 1: Wyoming comes up over and over and over again. And

1409
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:36,600
the FBIS in their email to me said that, you know,

1410
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:41,800
Green River has never been physically searched. I cannot find

1411
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:44,479
any bank robberies that you know, and I don't think

1412
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:47,640
they're as widely reported or chronicled as we would hope

1413
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:49,560
they would be. But is there a reason to believe

1414
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:52,079
that there could be a Wyoming victim?

1415
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,520
Speaker 2: It's possibly. I know there's a Wyoming cash and that

1416
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:57,359
cash is a little different than the other ones, as

1417
01:20:57,359 --> 01:21:01,439
he was very specific, it's in a plastic toolbox versus

1418
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:04,720
the five gallon buckets. One of the items that we've

1419
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:07,039
had sent down from Anchorage that we're gonna be looking

1420
01:21:07,079 --> 01:21:11,159
at is Wyoming map that was recovered. So my understanding

1421
01:21:11,319 --> 01:21:15,199
is that there aren't handwritten notes on it, but we're

1422
01:21:15,199 --> 01:21:17,840
anxious to take another look at it and just see

1423
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:19,880
if there's anything that jumps out at us as far

1424
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:22,680
as what area it covers in Wyoming and stuff. We

1425
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:24,520
do know he spent a bunch of time in Wyoming,

1426
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:28,399
so Wyoming definitely be higher up on my list of

1427
01:21:28,439 --> 01:21:32,079
possible states for victims just because of that, and it

1428
01:21:32,159 --> 01:21:34,640
offers him, you know, a lot of the I've punted

1429
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:36,600
in Wyoming. You know, I'm familiar with it. It's a

1430
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:40,960
very remote, easy place to go do stuff and you know,

1431
01:21:41,199 --> 01:21:43,199
not have to worry about people bumping into you. So

1432
01:21:43,520 --> 01:22:00,000
it makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways.

1433
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:03,079
Speaker 1: And Lake Crescent, and I know we've discussed some of

1434
01:22:03,079 --> 01:22:07,399
this offline. Is your understanding that the victim was submerged

1435
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:11,000
there via his bayliner versus like a kayak.

1436
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:13,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, the bayliner is the one that we believe was

1437
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:17,760
used in that. Our understanding is that he used the

1438
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:21,039
Bayliner for two victims. One was on Lake Crescent. He

1439
01:22:21,079 --> 01:22:26,720
never identified the second lake. We suspect that it's like Leosette.

1440
01:22:27,039 --> 01:22:28,319
We spent a lot of time there, a lot of

1441
01:22:28,359 --> 01:22:30,319
privacy would make a lot of sense, but it's just

1442
01:22:30,359 --> 01:22:33,359
pure speculation on our part. I did see when I

1443
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:37,439
was reviewing some notes from the interview where we don't

1444
01:22:37,479 --> 01:22:41,079
have but the recording anymore, that he mentioned that the

1445
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:44,199
bodies of his submerged victims were in over fifty feet

1446
01:22:44,239 --> 01:22:47,600
of water, So that I think rules out Beaver Lake,

1447
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:51,039
which was another lake that was considered that's much more shallow.

1448
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I drove past there because I remember reading one

1449
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,479
of his friends saying there were I think two occasions

1450
01:22:57,479 --> 01:22:59,840
where he saw Kesa's car parked out out the lake late.

1451
01:23:01,359 --> 01:23:03,800
But it just seems like a very tiny lake, like

1452
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:09,199
you couldn't really conceal a lot there. Yeah, for Lake

1453
01:23:09,239 --> 01:23:13,239
Crescent or I guess the baylin aer in general, is

1454
01:23:13,359 --> 01:23:16,720
your belief that the victims were killed on the boat

1455
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:19,239
or the boat was just a tool to dispose of

1456
01:23:19,279 --> 01:23:20,800
their remains after their deaths.

1457
01:23:21,119 --> 01:23:24,479
Speaker 2: We don't know, is the honest answer. We know there

1458
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:27,039
was a lot of blood in the boat, so you

1459
01:23:27,039 --> 01:23:29,840
can kind of try to work through different scenarios to explain,

1460
01:23:30,239 --> 01:23:32,439
you know, how you get all this blood in the boat?

1461
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:34,960
Does I mean you dismember the bodies in the boat?

1462
01:23:37,079 --> 01:23:39,279
Speculation in that part, but we know that was clear

1463
01:23:39,279 --> 01:23:40,920
from him there was a lot of blood in the boat.

1464
01:23:41,159 --> 01:23:43,000
He thought that there was a chance we'd may be

1465
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:46,239
able to recover some DNA from the boat when we

1466
01:23:46,279 --> 01:23:50,039
had examined it, but unfortunately it sat with water in

1467
01:23:50,079 --> 01:23:52,560
it for five years and there was no usable DNA

1468
01:23:52,600 --> 01:23:53,359
that we can recover.

1469
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:01,359
Speaker 1: It can be easy to get lost in the small

1470
01:24:01,439 --> 01:24:05,800
tidbits eked out over a long period of time, to

1471
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:09,239
feel like they're so small there barely anything at all.

1472
01:24:10,359 --> 01:24:13,239
But when you put them all together, when you put

1473
01:24:13,279 --> 01:24:15,920
all the small tidbits doled out over the past few

1474
01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:24,359
months together, they paint a pretty impactful picture. Keys killed

1475
01:24:24,399 --> 01:24:29,319
someone outside of Washington State, likely between July and November

1476
01:24:29,359 --> 01:24:33,079
of two thousand and one. Tedhulla believes this was most

1477
01:24:33,279 --> 01:24:37,760
likely in Oregon, and this lines up with the timeline

1478
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:40,680
other than a potential trip to Idaho in August to

1479
01:24:40,760 --> 01:24:44,119
visit his ex girlfriend from Calville, a trip I actually

1480
01:24:44,159 --> 01:24:49,000
think she misremembered, a trip likely in two thousand. The

1481
01:24:49,039 --> 01:24:51,000
only other travel we know of is a trip to

1482
01:24:51,039 --> 01:24:55,439
ocean shores in southwest Washington and possibly a work trip

1483
01:24:55,479 --> 01:25:01,359
to Tampa with Tammy. We also know now that the

1484
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:04,640
victim deemed accidental is believed to have been a drowning.

1485
01:25:07,159 --> 01:25:09,840
We know the male female couple were likely killed in

1486
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:13,840
eastern Washington. There were pine needles on the ground, there

1487
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:17,880
was running water nearby. Keys could hear traffic below him

1488
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:22,359
in a valley. Keys accidentally killed the male while trying

1489
01:25:22,399 --> 01:25:25,840
to subdue him with a shovel, and both stabbed and

1490
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:30,000
strangled the female. Keys described her as an older woman.

1491
01:25:31,159 --> 01:25:33,159
He said they were both buried in a grave in

1492
01:25:33,199 --> 01:25:37,359
a valley, and they were assaulted and murdered in the

1493
01:25:37,399 --> 01:25:45,560
same location that Keyes encountered them. Another victim was a

1494
01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:49,239
younger female with dark, wavy or curly brown hair. She

1495
01:25:49,359 --> 01:25:52,239
drove an older car and claimed to have a wealthy grandmother.

1496
01:25:53,079 --> 01:25:59,600
She was murdered near her vehicle. Two victims were separately

1497
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:03,880
submers urged using his Bayliner boat with anchors made of

1498
01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:08,239
milk cartons. One in Lake Crescent, and one they believe

1499
01:26:08,319 --> 01:26:12,039
in Lake Ozette. It's unclear whether they were murdered on

1500
01:26:12,119 --> 01:26:15,479
the boat, but Keys told investigators that his earlier murders

1501
01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:19,319
occurred in the same places he encountered as victims, and

1502
01:26:19,439 --> 01:26:22,880
in at least one of these cases, there was significant

1503
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:30,720
blood on Keyes's boat following the murder. Additionally, if Halla

1504
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:34,720
is correct and there are only four Washington victims, the

1505
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:38,920
victim deemed accidental logically would have been in another state.

1506
01:26:40,119 --> 01:26:46,600
According to Keys, this was a long time ago. We

1507
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:49,399
also now know that the FBI does in fact believe

1508
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:53,760
there is a Texas victim, and the FBI does in

1509
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:58,560
fact believe there are multiple international victims, including in Canada.

1510
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:03,079
All this and all the other tidbits and all the

1511
01:27:03,199 --> 01:27:06,199
off the record info has painted us a very clear

1512
01:27:06,279 --> 01:27:11,239
picture of what to do and where to go next.

1513
01:27:15,079 --> 01:27:26,880
Speaker 4: I know the bedrumad it is becoming we shalls laughing.

1514
01:27:27,119 --> 01:27:31,039
Speaker 5: I just cannot see way out of this, and know

1515
01:27:31,279 --> 01:27:32,399
they're building the.

1516
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:37,880
Speaker 4: Mud on the corner of me.

1517
01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:45,760
Speaker 5: Street, preserving something wall left to decomposing the heat.

1518
01:27:46,279 --> 01:27:49,840
Speaker 4: You said we'd make a room feture.

1519
01:27:51,199 --> 01:27:56,840
Speaker 5: I'm starting to think it was just a stupid idea.

1520
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:28,520
Speaker 4: Holiday and act fuck no. But I still go to

1521
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:36,800
the wood and I think that it's beau ful.

1522
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:43,399
Speaker 5: Fake lights make it of everything, gliding glitter, And when a.

1523
01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:52,479
Speaker 4: Load to B school, I noticed the view has changed.

1524
01:28:53,279 --> 01:28:57,680
Speaker 5: All the apple trees they planted have finally grown up.

1525
01:28:58,119 --> 01:29:00,840
Speaker 4: You said we make fure.

1526
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:10,279
Speaker 5: I'm starting to think it was just a stupiddal holiday.

1527
01:29:11,079 --> 01:29:57,199
Speaker 4: The folk give it another day. You suddenly make a future.

1528
01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:03,359
Just stop.

1529
01:30:06,119 --> 01:30:09,800
Speaker 1: This episode was written, researched, edited and produced by Me

1530
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:13,479
Your Host Josh Hallmark, with sound editing by Darren Wood

1531
01:30:13,560 --> 01:30:17,760
of The Defense Diaries. It featured FBI special Agent Ted Holla.

1532
01:30:18,119 --> 01:30:21,279
The episode was made possible by the following Patreon producers

1533
01:30:21,319 --> 01:30:24,880
Amelia Hancock, Amy Basel and Marie cash Anette el Ash Fish,

1534
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:29,319
Becky c Benjamin Choppafon, Casey Jensen, Richardson, Christina Sassoon, Corey Deetley,

1535
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:33,159
Dale Axton, Drew Vipon, Heather Horton, Whedon, Gen Jacoby, Gillian Natale,

1536
01:30:33,399 --> 01:30:37,319
Kathleen Steudter, Kendall, c Lna Holiday, Lauren f Linley, Tuscoffmanolas

1537
01:30:37,359 --> 01:30:40,760
Bullacus Nicoll and Dennis Henry, Nicole Gooseman, Pink s c

1538
01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:44,560
Shelley Brewer, Sherry D. Trista, Tuesday Woodworth, Zach Ignottowitz, Warren

1539
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:47,800
Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan M. Jordan Taylor, Michael Beer,

1540
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:52,039
Sarah C. SHAWNA. Harden, Spooky Express, Than and Lydia Fiedler.

1541
01:30:52,399 --> 01:30:55,840
Thank you to Studio Both, Anne's newest Patreon supporters Jenny E.

1542
01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:59,840
Michael G. Gillian L. Rosemary H. Stephen dice A, Amber

1543
01:30:59,880 --> 01:31:03,000
A and Corin B. To support the investigation and get

1544
01:31:03,039 --> 01:31:06,199
AD free episodes and bonus content, go to patreon dot

1545
01:31:06,199 --> 01:31:10,159
com slash Studio both And. This episode included music by

1546
01:31:10,199 --> 01:31:14,479
William Hellfire, Radical Face, Saragei, Cherimisenov and Saroh with featured

1547
01:31:14,560 --> 01:31:17,319
music by Halfway.

1548
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:22,720
Speaker 5: Think it was just a stupid idea Holiday

1549
01:31:25,960 --> 01:31:27,000
Speaker 4: Fall ca