Speaker 1: Come, what up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode of Let's
Ask Paul, the podcast where you get to ask me
Paul Abernathy anything you want about the National Electrical Code
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title is going to say the most right. The title
is going to be really the thing that you're going
to hone in on. Okay, anyway, so today we have
a question that was submitted and I'm want to make
sure I answer this question. I did for The Gentleman
by the Way in an email. But the reason I'm
answering this question is because it got me thinking about
rule of thumbs. It got me thinking about when we
say something to somebody in the electrical industry, that we
assume that they know what we're talking about. And that
is not always the case, even for me, when people
will send me something like a question and I will
look at it and they may use an acronym or
something that I'm just not familiar with, and so when
I look at it and I'm like, Okay, what the hell
are they talking about? And I have to think about it. Well.
I also understand that we as an industry and folks
that have maybe more knowledge than others may share things
in podcasts and videos and lessons and training and maybe
even use rule of thumbs. And ultimately, at the end
of the day, the student or the viewer doesn't understand
what they're talking about, so we have to do better.
I have to do better. I am certainly not perfect.
I make mistakes all the time. And again, the difference
between me and many others is I'm very vocal, I'm
very out there. I'm in the public. I put things
out there. I put myself out there, and so I'm
there to be critiqued. I have my content tore up
all the time on various Facebook groups, and that's okay.
I don't have any problem with it. Doesn't does not
hurt me. I don't need to go defend my honor
or whatnot. You know, I'll tell people that I will.
I will debate with anybody if you can prove I'm
wrong and teach me something, dude, I love it. I
won't get offended. But you have to be able to
not give your opinion. You have to be able to
articulate it out, improve your point. And then if I
look at it and go, you know, hey, I agree,
you're right, you're right, I'm wrong, you're right, I'll be
the first to admit it. But I will tell you
that doesn't happen all the time. Most people go hiding
off in a corner somewhere and they give their opinion
of something, but they don't they don't want to have
a debate about it. And I get it, and I
don't do that either. If I'm going to critique something,
I'm not here to educate the author of something. I'm
here to give my commentary, give my opinion. They can
like it or not, they can agree to disagree, and
they can move on. That's just the way I do it.
So again, I understand it. You can agree to disagree
with me. You can say I'm full of shit, the
worst educator in the world. You can be a hater.
That's fine too. Doesn't bother me. I do not lose
sleep at night, Trust me, I do not. I've been
blessed in this industry that I don't have to worry
about that now. I am in a good place and
so at the end of the day, don't worry about it.
You say what you want to say. It makes you
feel better. But if you're learning something, that's all that's
that's the motivation to learn something. Now, today's episode not
talking about rule of thumbs. I'm gonna read you this
question that was submitted and I will answer it. And
it's going to be quick. It's not going to be uh,
you know, this is not going to be a long
podcast today hopefully, and so I'm going to read this
to you. So let me read this. It says, here's
the question. The gentleman sent the question. It says, I'm
looking for the two foot four foot rule for receptacle
wall countertop spacing. In two ten fifty two C one.
It says, I see the two foot rule receptacle outlets
shall be installed so that no point along the wall
line is more than twenty four inches, But I don't
see the four foot rule spacing between each receptacle. Can
you point me in the right direction? Okay, So that
is the question. Now this is a pretty easy one
because I can explain that you got it right. It
says that at no point on the walls or I'm
talking of countertop now in a kitchen. Let's just keep
it simple. Take countertop in a kitchen. The wall spacing
where the counter is connected to the wall. The spacing
is at no point along the wall line of the counter.
Can you be more than two feet from a receptacle outlet. Now,
the thing about that is, if I go for one
receptacle outlet and I go four feet to the next
receptacle outlet on that countertop, if I touch the wall
in the middle of those two, am I not within
twenty four inches or two feet of the receptacle on
the left? Am I not within two feet of the
receptacle on the right. So anywhere on that wall that
I touch between these receptacles, I'm going to be within
twenty four inches of a receptacle outlet. That is the
notion that that is what the code is saying. The
same thing applies to the six foot twelve foot rule
that you hear us talk about when it comes to
two ten fifty two A, so that no point along
the wall line in a room can be more than
six feet from a receptacle outlet. So the maximum spacing
between receptacles on a wall, if you're doing the wall spacing,
is twelve feet, right, Because if you touch the wall
right in the middle of these two receptacle outlets, then
you need to be within six feet of the receptacle
on the left. In six feet of receptacle on the right. Okay,
so those are rule of thumbs. You hear us say
two foot four foot rule, But basically it's a minimum
maximum rule. We're saying the maximum between receptacle outlets is
in a kitchen countertop, for example, is four feet because
if you space them four feet apart, maximum, anywhere in
the wall that you would touch between them would put
you within two feet or twenty four inches of a
receptacle outlet, as demanded per the National Electric Code. So
we call it a two foot four foot rule. But
at the end of the day, it just talks about
a point on the wall line so that it's not
more than two feet from a receptacle outlet. So logically,
if you space them four feet apart and you go
right dab in the middle, you're gonna be within two
feet of the receptacle on the left two feet of
the receptacle on the right. You're gonna comply with the
fact that there's a receptacle within twenty four inches of
any point on that wall. It's just a maximum rule,
and we just shortcut it by saying two foot four
foot rule. You're not gonna find that verbage in there.
You have to understand it by how I explained it
and saying, oh, I get it. So the receptacles can't
be more than four feet apart, otherwise they wouldn't comply
with the twenty four inch rule. That's right. Same with
the wall. Two receptacles twelve feet apart. The midpoint is
going to be six feet from this receptacle. Six feet
from that receptacle, we meet the rule. And no point
on the wall line am I more than six feet
from a receptacle makes sense? So that's the rule of thumb,
and one of the rule of thumbs. We have quite
a few rule of thumbs, but that is the basic one.
When you hear somebody talk about two foot four foot rule,
that is what they're talking about. So you're not gonna
see the reference to four feet in there. You just
have to understand the concept of what we're trying to achieve. Okay,
So for now on, if you ever hear that six
foot twelve foot, two foot four foot, you now understand
that the maximum distance between receptacles is four feet on
a counter or kitchen counter, for example, wall space requirement
two ten to fifty two C one. And then when
it comes to the wall space requirement. You have the
six foot twelve foot rule. Twelve foot is the six
foot is the distance from any point on the wall
line two receptacles. I'll let twelve foot is the maximum
distance between receptacles. You could be less than that. Again,
it's all about design. But the maximum distance twelve feet,
so that any point on that wall line is within
six feet of a receptacle. That is the concept. So
that's why we call them six foot twelve foot two
foot four foot rule makes sense, all right, So that's
what that is. Okay, So hopefully I answered that question.
Let's see if we have another one that we can
answer today. Okay, I don't know if this is a
question or not. A gentlemen sent this in. He says,
this isn't a question. It's a response to your call
to action at the end of episode five of Your
Bonding Ground podcast. Okay, I like this. I like when
people give comments too. It's not just to ask questions, guys,
I do read them. Okay. Whether you hate me, love me,
want to flame me, doesn't matter. If you feel like
you're hurting me personally by saying something shitty, you're not
hurting me. I don't care. I really don't. You don't change,
you don't affect my life. But I do love it
when people do send comments and give thoughts and praise,
or they love something or they give I mean, I look,
I read them all. So this one is based on
I guess it was episode five I can't remember of
my New Bonding Ground podcast where I talked about do
you like the long content? I mean, do you like
episodes that are forty five minutes an hour? Because most
people feel like they can't hold their attention span to
more than fifteen minutes to twenty minutes, and so you
know what. I'm not about the clicks. So I'm not
here to worry about whether or not people follow because
I'm too long winded. I don't give a shit about that.
But I want to make sure you're getting content that
you want. So he states that he says, I really
appreciate the deep dive into article two fifty. It's a
large and important topic with a lot of misconceptions about it.
I've been binging the podcast all week since finding it.
I am an apprentice with an hour long commute, so
the longer the better. Cool. Hey, let me tell you, dude,
if you really want to remember, go look for our
other podcasts if you really want to have enough material
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episodes Master the NEC podcast or the Let's Ask Paul
podcasts like this one. So that is one of those things.
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That's that's you. That's up to you. I listen to
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we're on Spotify as well. Just make sure you search
for our podcast name right master the NEC podcast or
Let's Ask Paul podcast or the new one, the Bond
and Ground podcast. Okay, so again, welcome, glad to have
you listening. And you bet it, I'm long winded, so
you'll like my approach to teaching because I am redundant
and long winded. See what else we got Okay. The
next question that we have says, good morning, Paul. In
a dwelling unit with a fire sprinkler system and a
fire bell, does the fire bell have to be on
a dedicated circuit and does it have to comply with
the National Electrical Code Article seven sixty and NFPA seventy two.
These homes do not have a communications system to the
fire department. It's just a fire bell. It appears to
be a lot of confusion with this requirement, and I
would like to hear your opinion. Thanks in advance. Okay, well,
this is going to be my opinion. Okay, so take
it for whatever it's worth. Article seven to sixty of
the National Legical Code talks about fire alarm systems. Let's
not confuse a fire alarm system with a possible localized
reporting system. In other words, it may be a standalone
bell on a circuit that is simply required by the
local jurisdiction and it is not a fire alarm system.
I can't be the one to determine that. So you
have to determine with them, is what you have a
fire alarm system. If you read seven sixty and you
look at the scope of seven sixty. You have to
look at it and say, do I have a fire
alarm system or do I simply have a sprinkler system,
which may or may not be optional or required by
the jurisdiction. But is the horn is simply a notification
and it doesn't actually mean that it is a fire
alarm system, because if it's not a fire alarm system,
it is simply something that may be just a standalone
bell circuit that is to notify, okay when the sprinkler
system goes off. If it's not, and I can't tell
you it is. I don't know enough about the sprinkler system.
You didn't give me enough detail, You didn't tell me
whether the jurisdiction requires it, if it has a control
panel to really be constituted as a fire alarm system.
So it probably is not a fire alarm system. It's
simply a standalone notification for the sprinkler system, and it
doesn't qualify as a fire alarm system. Again, looking at NFPA,
looking at NPA seventy two, talking with the AHJA again,
I have seen sprinkler systems which are not fire alarm systems.
They are simply notification systems, So they would not have
to meet the requirements of seven sixty of the National
Electrical Code, so they would not require a dedicated circuit. Now,
I strongly recommend it because we want to make sure
that people don't turn it off, that it stays on.
This is a matter of life and death. YadA, YadA, YadA.
But as far as the National Electrical Code, unless something
in the instructions from the manufacturer of this whatever the
system is, or this whole or whatever bell, if they
demand it, that's one thing. But I don't think it is.
In my opinion, I don't know that this is a
fire alarm system. They think it's a notification, standalone notification
for the sprinkler, and so again you'll have to check
with the HJ. Now, if it was a fire alarm system,
and this is typically going to be let's say, a
hornets applied by one hundred and twenty vold circuit, so
that's considered what's called non power limited fire alarm. If
it was. If I'm saying if it was, and if
that's the case, you have to follow seven sixty dot
forty one B. Okay, so seven sixty forty one B
would tell you that you have to have the individual
brand circuit. It's going to tell you how to identify
it and fire fire alarm circuit and red letters and
all this, YadA, YadA, YadA. But the language says that
it has a fire alarm control unit. If there isn't one,
then you don't have a fire alarm control unit. It
may be simply a local alerting appliance. And so if
that's the case, it is not a fire alarm system
per the NEC or an FPA seventy two. So that's
why it so important to work with the HJA and
see what it is. Now if you do have a
fire alarm system and they quantify this as a fire
alarm system and you get clarity from them if they
tell you they're the HJ. If they say, yes, this
is a fire alarm system, then your question to them is, well,
where's the fire alarm control unit to require the dedicated
circuit in accordance with seven to sixty forty one B
so that I can market accordingly. They say, well, just
do it at the breaker in a panel. And you're like, well,
wait a minute, are you telling me that the breaker
in the panel is the fire alarm control unit, because
that's not the definition of a fire alarm control unit.
When we look at n FPA seventy two, that's not
what it is. And so I don't know how the
systems interact. I don't know how the sprinklers interact with
the horn and do it does it go through a
fire alarm control unit or is it just a power
to the horn and the horn has some kind of
power limiting controls that go over to the actual sprinkler
system or the flow switch. And this is basically just
a localized alerting system. If that's what it is, then
that does not Again, that does not make it a
fire alarm system, okay, because a fire alarm system involves
initiating devices, control equipment, and notification appliances installed per NFPA
seventy two. If you have that, if this is what
you have, and you have a fire alarm control unit
that is going to control all these functions, okay, then
in that scenario, then you do have requirements for a
individual circuit that's not going to have anything on it,
but that fire alarm system that's going to all be
covered under seven sixty forty one B and you're going
to follow those rules. But you have to follow what
the manufacturers say, and again the manufacture of the bill,
they may be able to give you way more insight
on what this is and whether this is actually a
fire alarm system. And if it is, then yes, you'd
have to have that dedicated circuit. You would have to
have the red markings and the labeling and all for
restricted access, right and all those type of things. So again,
definitely double check with the HJ. Don't get in a
pissing match. Determine first whether you have a fire alarm system.
Is that sprinkler going to control to a flow, goes
to a fire alarm control unit and you're just supplying
power to the horn from the actual pound Okay, then
you know in that case if it is part of
that horn alone, if that's supplied by the one twenty
for example, that alone does not constitute that it is
a fire alarm system. Okay. So again it's going to
be so important for you to dissect it down. Okay.
So now, just as a bottom line to a dedicated breaker,
dedicated circuit, I'd probably recommend it just because of the
nature of it, but it's not required if it's not
a fire alarm system. The markings fire alarm circuit markings
not required, unless, of course, it is a fire alarm system,
those those type of things, and you do not have
to meet Article seven sixty. If it's a standalone bell,
it's not a system, then seven sixty doesn't apply. That's it.
If the bell just gets actuated and this applies power
to it, and it just gets actuated when there's a flow,
and there's no fire alarm control unit anywhere, then I
would argue that it's not a fire alarm system. But
you're gonna have to work with your local age j
So again, I'm pretty sure that I'm not going to
be the one that that answers question for you, because
I don't know enough about your system. And it makes
me believe that since the only thing that you have
in there there's no integrated fire control unit, there's a
fire alarm control unit, there is no smoke detectors that
interconnect with it. You may have smoke alarms that we
talked about in the dwelling units, they do not constitute
a need for any dedicated circuit. Okay, they're just you know,
smoke alarms, and they're interconnected just like you would in
the dwelling So you're just talking about the sprinkler in
a notification bell, So I think that personally, I think
I would say that that's a standalone notification system and
I would not be a full fledged fire alarm system
to comply with seven point sixty. But remember if the
AHJ says it is, then it's simple. If it's supplied
by one hundred and twenty volt circuits, then you're just
going to go to the panel and you're going to
follow the rules and seven to sixty one follow those rules,
and that would be for your normal non power limited. Now,
when it comes to power limited, by the way, since
i'll touch on it, for those that have fire alarm systems,
if the panel itself, fire alarm control unit and any
power supply or any transformers in there is going to
limit the amount of current that we get supplied to
these circuits, to these notification devices or whatnot, those are
called power limited firearm circuits. Means their power is literally
limited by the controller and the power supply, so that's
why we call them. Whereas the non power limited is
not limited, so they can be up to six hundred volts.
Typically they're one twenty. So just remember non power limited
is regular one twenty volte like brand circuits. Power limited
are going to be those that are supplied through a
fire alarm control unit, which is going to limit the
amount of power that's going to be on those circuits.
That's an easy way to remember it. You have to
identify if I would system you have work with your
age J And again, if you identify it's just a
standalone sprinkler notification system, then that is not a fire
alarm system, and then seven pot sixty would not apply
at all, and it would not be required for any
dedicated circuit, any marketing or anything like that. Does that
make sense? All right? Hopefully it's helped you out a
little bit. I don't know that that did, but it
is the best that I got for you. So until
next time, folks, stay safe, God bless them. We'll catch
you on the next episode of Let's Ask Paul