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Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
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Speaker 7: It was in Manchester, England, in nineteen sixty five when
Speaker 7: the police were called to a possible crime scene at
Speaker 7: the residence of Ian Brady and girlfriend Myra Hindley. What
Speaker 7: they found in the upstairs spare bedroom were the remains
Speaker 7: of seventeen year old Edward Evans, who had been cut
Speaker 7: into pieces with an axe. After an investigation and search,
Speaker 7: the police found two suitcases that were full of graphic
Speaker 7: pictures and a videotape of a young ten year old girl,
Speaker 7: Leslie Ann Downey, who had been missing for months. The
Speaker 7: pictures showed Leslie tied up and tortured. The tape recorded
Speaker 7: the assault and when heard at the police station, made
Speaker 7: people cry and some even vomit. Wrey is about to
Speaker 7: unfold shock not only the UK, but also the entire world.
Speaker 7: Soon they would become known as the Moore's Murders, one
Speaker 7: of the most infamous serial murder cases to come out
Speaker 7: of Britain. This book by journalist Alan R. Warren not
Speaker 7: only reviews the real facts and evidence describes what really
Speaker 7: happened behind the closed doors of Brady and Hinley, but
Speaker 7: also includes actual letters from Ian Brady from the last
Speaker 7: few years of his life. These give us a unique
Speaker 7: insight into the mind of Brady, his loves, his hates,
Speaker 7: and his beliefs in the world of today. After reviewing
Speaker 7: several documentaries and reading many of the books already published,
Speaker 7: he realized that there were many things left unset about
Speaker 7: this case. Even though Myra claimed innocence by not being
Speaker 7: there when the rapes and murders happened, he suggests that
Speaker 7: not only was she there, but she was intimately involved
Speaker 7: in both the murders and the rape. The book that
Speaker 7: we're featuring this evening is The Moor's Murders, Ian Brady
Speaker 7: and Myra Hindley Serial Killers British Criminals, Volume three, with
Speaker 7: my special guest journalist, author and podcaster Alan R. Warren.
Speaker 7: Welcome back to the program and thank you very much
Speaker 7: for greading this interview Alan R. Warren.
Speaker 8: Well, thank you for having me. Always good to be here.
Speaker 7: It's always a pleasure. You always handle some of the
Speaker 7: most infamous and notorious serial killer cases. Let's get right
Speaker 7: to the birth of Ian Duncan Stewart. This is January two,
Speaker 7: nineteen thirty eight, in Glasgow, Scotland, and his mother is
Speaker 7: named Maggie. She's an unmarried waitress. Tell us a little
Speaker 7: bit about Ian's life right from the very beginning in Glasgow, Scotland.
Speaker 8: Well, he had a I don't want to say typical,
Speaker 8: but it seemed to be fairly typical back then. Quite
Speaker 8: a few brothers and sisters and uh, he he would
Speaker 8: be taken in and out of foster cares. They don't
Speaker 8: exactly call it that, but government care, so that you
Speaker 8: know that he would be taken away from the mother
Speaker 8: and they would him and some of the siblings would
Speaker 8: stay there for a period of time and and sometimes
Speaker 8: they would return and stay with the mother and father.
Speaker 8: Sometimes they wouldn't. So he had really a back and
Speaker 8: forth kind of life and uh, kind of kind of
Speaker 8: a wild kid in that way, and no real discipline
Speaker 8: and and in that in that scenario, there was a
Speaker 8: lot of talk of abuse that happened, both physical and
Speaker 8: sexual abuse from different people in his family as well
Speaker 8: some of the people in the government service and churches
Speaker 8: that would house him and his siblings. So he had
Speaker 8: a very mixed up life at a young time.
Speaker 7: You write that at nine years old he moved with
Speaker 7: the neighbors that he was given to. His mother gave
Speaker 7: him up to the neighbors for foster care, like you say,
Speaker 7: and then he moved to the suburbs of Glasgow and
Speaker 7: he didn't have access to his mother anymore. You talk
Speaker 7: about that he entered into the shadow Lands Academy for
Speaker 7: gifted children, and yet at the same time his violent
Speaker 7: behavior was noticed and noted. You talk about him torturing animals,
Speaker 7: it's noted, but also that very early on in his
Speaker 7: childhood he was torturing children that he was from his neighborhood.
Speaker 7: And at fifteen years old he was caught for stealing
Speaker 7: and had a juvenile record, and he quit school and
Speaker 7: he was taking any job he could. Now you talk
Speaker 7: about him finally meeting or pardon me that his father,
Speaker 7: Patrick Brady, coming into his life and tell us what
Speaker 7: happens with Ian afterwards, under the influence of Patrick Brady.
Speaker 8: Well Patrick was an Irish sort of man, and he
Speaker 8: was a fruit seller and he at first hired Ian
Speaker 8: just to be a porter, you know, pack away fruits
Speaker 8: and sort and do things like that. And within a
Speaker 8: few months he was caught stealing and he was fired
Speaker 8: and arrested as well. And by that time I think
Speaker 8: he was seventeen. So he got sentenced to two years
Speaker 8: in the brit British Youth Prison in Hatfield. And so
Speaker 8: that was meant to reform young offenders rather than to
Speaker 8: punish them. So it was it was a prison offen,
Speaker 8: you know, to help them get better. It wasn't like
Speaker 8: a punishment sort of thing.
Speaker 7: You talk about. Fast forward now to November nineteen fifty seven.
Speaker 7: He's released and he has a new job and he's
Speaker 7: studying to be an accountant and so he's a talented
Speaker 7: guy and he works at a clerk as a clerk
Speaker 7: at this Millwards Merchandising wholesale chemical plant in Gorton, which
Speaker 7: is just south of Manchester where he now resides. And
Speaker 7: you talk about Ian beginning his interest in reading about
Speaker 7: the Nazis, tell us how far he goes into with
Speaker 7: his interest in all things Nazi and also tell us
Speaker 7: about the meeting of Myra Hindley at this no words merchandising.
Speaker 7: How does this come about?
Speaker 8: Yeah, so he's he's working and he works himself up
Speaker 8: to be kind of a lead in the in the plant.
Speaker 8: And yeah, he's totally obsessed with Nazism. And and just
Speaker 8: just so you know, there's a lot of feedback I
Speaker 8: get from the family members about this, and even during
Speaker 8: writing and afterwards, and I still have some friction because
Speaker 8: Ian Brady took it to learn the language inside and out.
Speaker 8: He wanted to do everything in German. He wanted to
Speaker 8: speak it, act it, do all the customs. He drank
Speaker 8: his warm German wine, he had, you know, all German literature.
Speaker 8: He was totally involved in it. But in the letters
Speaker 8: later as we talked, just so this this points out,
Speaker 8: he said that he absolutely despised Hitler, but what he
Speaker 8: admired about Hitler was the ability of Hitler to be
Speaker 8: able to control people, to be able to set up
Speaker 8: whatever he wanted and make things functional, to make things work,
Speaker 8: and to make people obedient. And he was just you know,
Speaker 8: in my words, he was blown away. But he was
Speaker 8: just totally obsessed with that. So that was that was
Speaker 8: his obsession with Nazism, not so much being a Nazi itself.
Speaker 8: Now now Myra came along, I believe it was a
Speaker 8: couple of years later, almost three years and sixty one,
Speaker 8: and she was a typist and so she would take
Speaker 8: dictation for people like him and other office people in
Speaker 8: accounting and different parts of the firm. And at first
Speaker 8: Brady didn't spend any time with her, and according to
Speaker 8: some of her notes, she thought that he didn't like
Speaker 8: her and was kind of mean, but she had a
Speaker 8: huge crush on him. She would do anything to get him,
Speaker 8: as in she was just head over heels. So it
Speaker 8: was sort of a kind of that type of relationship
Speaker 8: right off the get go. They would eventually meet at
Speaker 8: one of the Christmas parties and get together and that
Speaker 8: would be the start of their relationship.
Speaker 7: You write about Myra Hindley's beginnings and her broken family.
Speaker 7: Felt father was an alcoholic and would constantly beat her,
Speaker 7: and you include a story where a bully had knocked
Speaker 7: her out, had beaten her, and the father made her
Speaker 7: go back to that bully and knock him out. Otherwise
Speaker 7: he said he would knock her out. So just to
Speaker 7: demonstrate the kind of family she grew up and at
Speaker 7: eight years old when she met Ian Brady again, she
Speaker 7: was fascinated with him and as such she also decided
Speaker 7: at his urging to learn to speak German. This is
Speaker 7: nineteen sixty three. By the time, in nineteen sixty three,
Speaker 7: what was the couple talking about and planning to do?
Speaker 7: According to Ian Brady.
Speaker 8: Well, there's been a lot of stories on this. They
Speaker 8: would get together and they would go watch X rayed
Speaker 8: films and go back home and then they would see
Speaker 8: the two of them would only speak German at home,
Speaker 8: and they would read German and drink and he even
Speaker 8: had her dress more of a German fashion with the
Speaker 8: high boots and the hair, and it was just sort
Speaker 8: of that way. And they started making plans of making money,
Speaker 8: and so the idea was to rob banks, and that's
Speaker 8: the general consensus.
Speaker 7: You talk about the plans that they did to rob banks,
Speaker 7: and there was rules that Ian had set out so
Speaker 7: that they could avoid detection and arrest. So everything was
Speaker 7: written down and had this master list. And they also
Speaker 7: at that time also his interests extended to photography, and
Speaker 7: so he built a dark room in his home and
Speaker 7: start taking nude photos of Myra Hindley. Of course, at
Speaker 7: some point we introduced her. You introduced Myra's sister, which
Speaker 7: is named Maureen. Tell us what how Maureen gets interested
Speaker 7: and in contact with Ian Brady And what did Maureen
Speaker 7: discuss with Ian Brady.
Speaker 8: Well, Maureen came along and she was she was a
Speaker 8: little bit more shy, she was a little bit more timid,
Speaker 8: and she didn't have the confidence of her sister, and
Speaker 8: she was dating different people and and one person in particular,
Speaker 8: his name was David Smith, and she eventually got pregnant
Speaker 8: with him, and so she but at that time when
Speaker 8: he was doing pictures and doing dark rooms, he offered
Speaker 8: to take pics, some pictures of her, and that would
Speaker 8: be in his words, he said he was doing it
Speaker 8: so that she could give it to the boyfriend, David,
Speaker 8: you know, so some erotic pictures, you know, and and
Speaker 8: things like that, so you know, And and that's how
Speaker 8: they met up with David. And David was a person
Speaker 8: that needed money, and so Ian Brady thought him as
Speaker 8: a perfect candidate to bring him in on the bank robberies.
Speaker 7: To add to this story as well, Maureen tells Brady
Speaker 7: that her new boyfriend had been seen with Myra's neighbor
Speaker 7: which was named Pauline Reid, and she thought that David
Speaker 7: was still or she believed that David was still playing
Speaker 7: the field. And to add to this, the Hendle family
Speaker 7: didn't like David. They thought he was too young, and
Speaker 7: they thought they knew he had a record, and they
Speaker 7: also they just didn't like him. They just didn't think
Speaker 7: he was suited for for their daughter. Maureen. Now tell
Speaker 7: us what happens with this quest for money? What David
Speaker 7: Smith has to have wants to that money. But Ian
Speaker 7: Brady believes that David Smith might be a candidate to
Speaker 7: help them in their At first, when they think when
Speaker 7: they're planning robberies, why do they think that David Smith
Speaker 7: would be a person that they could trust.
Speaker 8: Well, well, David Smith was on you know, on the
Speaker 8: wrong side of the track. See, he never finished school.
Speaker 8: He had he had a lot of criminal activity in
Speaker 8: the past of stealing things. He was kind of a
Speaker 8: just a wayward kid. He was a year younger than Maureen,
Speaker 8: and he didn't seem to have any uh, any problems
Speaker 8: doing anything. And he started hanging out with the couple
Speaker 8: a lot. And when you mentioned that, when they saw
Speaker 8: Pauline read, yeah, they his sister Myra for sure thought
Speaker 8: that he was still playing the field. He and Pauline
Speaker 8: Reid was their neighbor. And when she came home, she
Speaker 8: wants to know why he would be hanging it out
Speaker 8: with her when you know she's he's got her sister pregnant.
Speaker 8: So and you're right, the family couldn't stand him. He
Speaker 8: was a criminal, no schooling, bad behavior. It was just
Speaker 8: it was just all the way around, just the wrong person.
Speaker 8: You know, you write that.
Speaker 7: On July twelfth, nineteen sixty three, Pauline Reid is on
Speaker 7: her way to a dance at a social club minute
Speaker 7: walk from her home. She'd called a couple of friends
Speaker 7: to come along, but they refused as alcohol was being
Speaker 7: served there. As she is there, there's a black van
Speaker 7: with Myra in that van. She asked Pauline where she's
Speaker 7: going to advance? And of course this Pauline recognized Myra
Speaker 7: because there were neighbors. What was the ruse that Myra
Speaker 7: used to get Pauline into that car and to the
Speaker 7: Saddleworth Moor's area.
Speaker 8: Well, she had said she'd lost a glove, which which
Speaker 8: was an important thing back then, and when she was
Speaker 8: up there, and because they had time before the party
Speaker 8: would start. She offered to give her a couple of
Speaker 8: records as well if she'd come help her. And so
Speaker 8: the story is that she got in the car and
Speaker 8: they drove up to the moon and they would go
Speaker 8: looking for the glob and you know, according according to Ian,
Speaker 8: he was waiting across the street with his motorbike and
Speaker 8: just sitting and when he saw a person that he
Speaker 8: thought would be interesting or someone they could pick up,
Speaker 8: he would flash his light headlight at her, and that's
Speaker 8: how she knew who she was supposed to pick up.
Speaker 8: So that that's kind of the story of how we
Speaker 8: hear it originally, and so that's why she picks her up,
Speaker 8: takes her out to the moors, and the couple is
Speaker 8: just sitting on the back of the little van that
Speaker 8: she had rented, and they were going to look for
Speaker 8: the glove, and along comes Ian and that's how the
Speaker 8: that's how it started.
Speaker 7: What do they do to this young girl?
Speaker 8: Between them, Well, there's two versions, but the main the
Speaker 8: main idea is according to Hinley, Ian Brady uh took
Speaker 8: Pauline read and they walked through the field looking for
Speaker 8: the glove, while Myra was going to stay back and
Speaker 8: keep an eye on the on the car, I guess.
Speaker 8: And about an hour later, Ian came back by himself
Speaker 8: and said, hey, you know, come with me, and they
Speaker 8: went to a spot where they had pre you know,
Speaker 8: planted a shovel and then he went to get that
Speaker 8: and uh. And then when they got to Pauline Reid,
Speaker 8: Myra said that Pauline Reid was what had her clothes
Speaker 8: all back on, but they had been disheveled, so she
Speaker 8: had obviously been raped, she thought, but she didn't know
Speaker 8: for sure. And then she had been strangled. And so
Speaker 8: what they did was they buried the body and in
Speaker 8: essence came back after that. But Ian Brady had a
Speaker 8: completely different story. Ian Ian Brady, you know, said that
Speaker 8: said that what happened was that he had no idea
Speaker 8: who she was going to pick up. Hindley was going
Speaker 8: to pick up who she was going to pick up.
Speaker 8: He was just going to follow them there, and by
Speaker 8: the time he got out there, basically she had already
Speaker 8: attacked and raped Pauline Reid, and then she ended up
Speaker 8: dead and buried as usual. So you kind of have
Speaker 8: two sides here of what really happened. It's hard, you know,
Speaker 8: So that's kind of how I write. I wrote the
Speaker 8: book so that people would understand kind of how each
Speaker 8: of them goes at it and how each of them
Speaker 8: explains it. But I think by the time you get
Speaker 8: through all of the crimes, you start to realize whose
Speaker 8: patterns sound more accurate and who doesn't.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And then that's why I say that I think
Speaker 7: the Ian Brady versions seem to be more likely truthful,
Speaker 7: since he has no self interest in protecting himself in this.
Speaker 7: So anyway, we'll get to that a little bit later.
Speaker 7: You talk about that there was no there was no
Speaker 7: police leads in this whatsoever. After this, and two months later,
Speaker 7: Ian and Myra are back at Moore's hanging out again.
Speaker 7: They go there to drink. But what they saw that
Speaker 7: was the North Sea Gas Company were digging. What what
Speaker 7: did they do as a result of this gas company
Speaker 7: digging in the area where the graves were or the grave.
Speaker 8: Was, well that that really freaked them out, right, of course,
Speaker 8: they were like totally in shock. They didn't know what
Speaker 8: they were going to do. It was so close to
Speaker 8: where it was. They were so worried that the body
Speaker 8: would be found. You see, because at the time, Pauline
Speaker 8: was considered to have just met a guy and ran away.
Speaker 8: That was kind of the concept. Sixteen year old girl
Speaker 8: and she just, you know, she wasn't getting along with
Speaker 8: her mother and she just took off and was gone
Speaker 8: that way. So and it seemed to it seemed to
Speaker 8: satisfy a lot of the people. So so that wasn't
Speaker 8: so people. So that's why when you say the police
Speaker 8: weren't really looking by then. So when they had gone
Speaker 8: up to the Mors, which they liked to do all
Speaker 8: the time, and they realized that one of the big
Speaker 8: companies was planning a big pipe groupe through where they
Speaker 8: were going, they knew there was going to be trouble,
Speaker 8: you know, so they decided they would have to changed
Speaker 8: the locations, you know, of where they're going to start
Speaker 8: burying people and where they're going to start hiding out
Speaker 8: you know things.
Speaker 7: Now you say, they decided to go to a new
Speaker 7: area for their next victim, and so they went to
Speaker 7: a place called Ashton under Lean and they went to
Speaker 7: this Ashton market. This time they rented a car. Again,
Speaker 7: this is part of their devious plan to change cars
Speaker 7: and avoid anybody seeing patterns with these people. As in
Speaker 7: terms of witness you also write that at the same time,
Speaker 7: just a coincidence that President Kennedy's assassination is all over
Speaker 7: radio and TV. And you introduced this Sheila and Pat Kilbride,
Speaker 7: and that's the parents of John Kilbride. He's twelve years old,
Speaker 7: November twenty third. Now he's asked his parents to go
Speaker 7: to the movies with his friend, and these boys. After
Speaker 7: the movie decide to go to the market because there's
Speaker 7: an opportunity for these boys to make some extra cash
Speaker 7: at this market. Around six o'clock, you write that Pat,
Speaker 7: pardon me, that John Kilbride's friend, John Ryan, decides to
Speaker 7: go home. So what happens to John Kilbride and how
Speaker 7: does he meet Ian and Myra?
Speaker 8: Well, yeah, so a lot of the kids did this,
Speaker 8: so you know, after the show and then it was
Speaker 8: the same time that the market was closing up and
Speaker 8: they could get a few extra coins. Were helping clean
Speaker 8: up things and sometimes they get some food or left
Speaker 8: over things. And so the two boys stayed and it
Speaker 8: was becoming really bad weather, fog came in. It was six,
Speaker 8: it was dark, so the one boy left, John Ryan,
Speaker 8: he did leave, and so Kilbride was still at the
Speaker 8: garbage bin when he left and was going to stay
Speaker 8: there as long as he could to make a little
Speaker 8: bit more money if he could. And what happened, of course,
Speaker 8: was Brady and Mayra found him. And again the stories
Speaker 8: are different, but basically Mayra was the one that would
Speaker 8: approach the boys for sure, because you know, even if
Speaker 8: the variance is in their story, it was much easier
Speaker 8: for a pretty girl with blonde hair and and address
Speaker 8: to come up and speak nice to the boys and say, hey,
Speaker 8: how are you doing? And and and in that particular case,
Speaker 8: she went up to him and said she had lost
Speaker 8: her glove, and you know, and so she wanted to,
Speaker 8: you know, get she wanted some help. And when she
Speaker 8: took him to the cars again, she had some seventy
Speaker 8: eight albums, which back then seventy eight was the common
Speaker 8: play speed for a record, and she said that she
Speaker 8: would give him a couple of records, and and that's
Speaker 8: how they got him in the car and they were
Speaker 8: going to go look for the glove, and they drove
Speaker 8: to the moors. And it's the it's kind of like
Speaker 8: the same old story there now on this particular case.
Speaker 8: And what I found with all of these cases that
Speaker 8: we have the evidence and that they were charged with.
Speaker 8: When it was a boy, it was always Ian Brady
Speaker 8: that would attack, sexually assault and killed the boy. When
Speaker 8: it was a female, it was always Mayra Hinley that
Speaker 8: did that. Sometimes she needed help killing the female, but
Speaker 8: she was the one that would sexually assault the females.
Speaker 8: So they were finding people for themselves to assault and
Speaker 8: using each other to do that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you write that they raped, well, she held them
Speaker 7: down as Ian raped the boy, and then of course
Speaker 7: they buried him. And you say though that in the
Speaker 7: months following this murder, Brady broke one of his own
Speaker 7: master rules and wrote John Kilbride's name in his master
Speaker 7: Planned book. And we'll talk about the significance of that later.
Speaker 7: Now you introduce another vict from Keith Bennett. Another twelve
Speaker 7: year old vanished June sixteenth, nineteen sixty four, and he
Speaker 7: lived in Longsight with his stepdad, Jimmy Johnson, and his
Speaker 7: mother was named Winnie, and she was seven months pregnant.
Speaker 7: Just to add to the horror of her son disappearing.
Speaker 7: She was with her son and then they were at
Speaker 7: the crossroads and he was to walk to his grandma's house.
Speaker 7: Winnie didn't find out to the next day when Grandma asked, Hey,
Speaker 7: how come Keith didn't come over? So that's when she
Speaker 7: found out that her son was missing. You talk about though,
Speaker 7: with police work, who becomes the prime suspect in Keith
Speaker 7: Bennett's murder or disappearance.
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, now, the Bennett case is a really,
Speaker 8: really hard one and Whinnie at the time was pregnant
Speaker 8: with Alan Bennett, who s a lie still right now,
Speaker 8: and he's been in a terrible way since he's had
Speaker 8: several breakdowns. He's had several times and he's the family
Speaker 8: is really really torn by this, and that's why the
Speaker 8: introduction was about the lost soul, because they call Keith
Speaker 8: Bennett the lost soul because he was the one that
Speaker 8: they never did find. They never found his body. And
Speaker 8: I bring that in because, yeah, they right away the stepfather,
Speaker 8: Jimmy Johnson, was the one that they suspect it right
Speaker 8: from the beginning. And you've got to remember with Pauline
Speaker 8: Reid before they thought she was a teenager run away,
Speaker 8: so there was no tie to that, and the same
Speaker 8: with John Kilbride, So there was no mental element among
Speaker 8: the cops or even the public that there's some weirdo
Speaker 8: going around stealing boys and killing them and stuff like that.
Speaker 8: So it wasn't it wasn't on their mind. So they
Speaker 8: did typical police work right away. Keith Bennett's missing, Who's
Speaker 8: to blame. It's the stepfather, you know. And and that's
Speaker 8: how it starts, and it and right to the end.
Speaker 8: Jimmy Johnson, you know that he had it just it
Speaker 8: ruined what life he had left. He never ever was
Speaker 8: normal again. And Whinnie stayed and fought right to the
Speaker 8: end until she died. She was out digging still in
Speaker 8: the moors right up until the day she died. So
Speaker 8: that this whole family was was was torn apart and
Speaker 8: left in a terrible situation because of this whole you know.
Speaker 8: And and so you know, we have both Hindley and
Speaker 8: and Brady's take on what happened, and this one I
Speaker 8: take definitely as more Brady's take. It was a boy
Speaker 8: Myra of course attracted him to uh where he needed
Speaker 8: to be for them, and Hindley raped and and and
Speaker 8: killed him and they buried him. And to top it
Speaker 8: off even more with this, after they were caught and
Speaker 8: in prison, Uh, both Hindley and Brady went out two
Speaker 8: times each for the police. Uh, made a big circus
Speaker 8: with all the helicopters and the press to show them
Speaker 8: where the body was buried. They're going to show them it.
Speaker 8: They're gonna, they're gonna, we're going to find it for you,
Speaker 8: for Winnie and and all this stuff. And they never did,
Speaker 8: and it never was and it it was pretty tortuous
Speaker 8: on the family. And that's why even that's why in
Speaker 8: the introduction to the book was kind of they had
Speaker 8: a memorial for or Keith Bennett, and I kind of
Speaker 8: put it in a way, it's not it's not written
Speaker 8: exact true to how the details happened. It's it's written
Speaker 8: exact true to the emotional status of what the what
Speaker 8: the family was going through and how they never found
Speaker 8: Keith and and how much that affected the rest of
Speaker 8: their lives. And wanted to make sure that was key.
Speaker 8: It was so important to me that people read that
Speaker 8: right off the bat and really learned that see how
Speaker 8: much these cases caused so much grief in families, for generations,
Speaker 8: for the whole general. It just it it just goes
Speaker 8: on and on and on, and you know, so finding
Speaker 8: the body, it's not that it brings closure, but what
Speaker 8: it does, is it it helps the family to accept
Speaker 8: what happened and then to sort of move on. Then
Speaker 8: they also have a place to come and grieve their
Speaker 8: lost child, and that's something that these two took away
Speaker 8: from that family.
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Speaker 7: Absolutely you right now what would normally be a happy event.
Speaker 7: But August nineteen sixty four, Maureen is now eighteen years old.
Speaker 7: She marries David Smith, who's sixteen, and Maureen is seven
Speaker 7: months pregnant. You write that none of Moreen's family attended
Speaker 7: the wedding, and so Brady and Myra take the couple
Speaker 7: and they go to of course, to saddle Worth Moors
Speaker 7: to celebrate. And at that point, Brady asks Smith if
Speaker 7: you know, if he'd like to help out make a
Speaker 7: little bit extra money. Myra moves in with Brady. They
Speaker 7: got a new place and December twenty sixth and Leslie
Speaker 7: and Downey ten years old. Leslie and again it's a
Speaker 7: different time, but she's ten years old and her and
Speaker 7: her brother they go to the fair and they run
Speaker 7: out of money and the brother leaves Leslie there. She's
Speaker 7: Leslie's watching something and she told her brother and the
Speaker 7: others that were with her to go ahead, she'd catch
Speaker 7: up later. How does Myra, what does Myra do with Leslie?
Speaker 7: How does it tell us a little bit about this altercation?
Speaker 8: Well, kind of the same old you know this, this
Speaker 8: had become a real, real pattern, and Maira had become
Speaker 8: very very uh, I guess talented if you want to
Speaker 8: put it. It's it's not the word I wanted. But
Speaker 8: she became very good at spotting children or children that
Speaker 8: were alone, and uh, picking them up in places like
Speaker 8: fairs or in parks and and things like that. And
Speaker 8: you know, so it wasn't it wasn't hard for her
Speaker 8: to you know, be very acquainting to these children. And
Speaker 8: and so that's how it happened. And and so she
Speaker 8: of course, uh this time other was the first time
Speaker 8: though that what had happened was Ira had got leslie
Speaker 8: and downing to come back to their place. It wasn't
Speaker 8: they weren't going to uh take her to the moors
Speaker 8: and and and things like that. They decided to change
Speaker 8: and uh do something at their house. So so that's
Speaker 8: kind of how it was. And and so they got
Speaker 8: her come back and uh, and that that one was
Speaker 8: one of the worst ones of all of them because
Speaker 8: the detail behind, Yeah, when they when they when they
Speaker 8: said come along for a ride, and the way they
Speaker 8: hit her behind the boxes. Of course, according to Myra
Speaker 8: like that. I want people to read those sort of
Speaker 8: things to see the differences. But again, the idea of
Speaker 8: it was that they actually made a recording of it.
Speaker 8: When they got the girl home, she was ten, they
Speaker 8: had her up tied up in the one of the
Speaker 8: upstairs bedrooms, and they had also put on some sexual
Speaker 8: gear or clothing for the ten year old to be wearing.
Speaker 8: And I transcribed the recording, the one recording that we
Speaker 8: had that was in court. And you see, and why
Speaker 8: it's real important for people to get that. I don't
Speaker 8: want to get too detailed about that is because you'll
Speaker 8: see that the way it was transcribed and the way
Speaker 8: Myra explained her story about how Mayra said she was
Speaker 8: told to fill the bath water and stay downstairs and
Speaker 8: watch out the window and all that. But with the recording,
Speaker 8: we knew that Mayra was up there, and in fact,
Speaker 8: she was the one screaming at the girl and was
Speaker 8: also scream I mean to shove it in her mouth
Speaker 8: and all this. She was doing the real violent stuff.
Speaker 8: So it kind of it's it's better for people to
Speaker 8: read that because then they really understand how how deceiving
Speaker 8: and how how Myra really was about taking part with
Speaker 8: having sex with this ten year old and and even
Speaker 8: strangling her with a silk cord. It's just and so
Speaker 8: that and that's the only reason I did put the
Speaker 8: transcription in there. It's not like I was trying to
Speaker 8: get gross. I wasn't trying to get some sort of
Speaker 8: fascination out of it or something. I just wanted people
Speaker 8: to realize how she how she portrayed herself in her
Speaker 8: own statement, and then what what really went on in
Speaker 8: the tape.
Speaker 7: M H, Yeah, you you talk about again the soon
Speaker 7: to step dad, Alan West is interrogated for several hours
Speaker 7: with this as well. Again the same pattern of looking
Speaker 7: to the obvious people first and trying to eliminate them,
Speaker 7: But that traumatic interrogation for the Alan West or any
Speaker 7: step father, any father would be is included here as well.
Speaker 7: In April twenty fourth, nineteen sixty five, the baby that
Speaker 7: David Smith and Maureen Hendley have it dies and so
Speaker 7: it dies of bronchitis, and you write that this has
Speaker 7: them even more involved with Ian and Myra because there's
Speaker 7: no support from their families or friends. And then the
Speaker 7: couples together start going to the moors even more on
Speaker 7: a regular basis. And Ian Brady, you write, gives Smith
Speaker 7: books to read. Again he was interested in Minekomf, but
Speaker 7: he also gave books to Smith like books from Marquis
Speaker 7: de Sade, and emphasized certain passages asked in the books,
Speaker 7: like you write that should murder be punished by murder,
Speaker 7: So he was trying to groom the Smith guide, believing
Speaker 7: that there would be a loyalty in the family so
Speaker 7: they wouldn't go to the police, and that he could
Speaker 7: get this accomplice. On October second, you write that Brady
Speaker 7: tells Smith that he had killed before and he had
Speaker 7: the photos to prove it, and he then he claims
Speaker 7: that he would do another murder just to prove his ability.
Speaker 7: So October fifth, you write that Smith returns the books
Speaker 7: Brady had loaned him, but Brady gives him two suitcases,
Speaker 7: and inside those suitcases is what we've just talked about
Speaker 7: spoke about is the tape recording and the photos of
Speaker 7: Leslie and Downey. Also in that suitcases are books of
Speaker 7: sexual perversions, gun cartridges, and few letters. And so this
Speaker 7: was headed to the Manchester train station up to a
Speaker 7: locker where Myra and Ian would stash these suitcases as
Speaker 7: part of their master plan. At the same time, Smith
Speaker 7: comes over to their home and says, look at we're
Speaker 7: going to be evicted from our place. We don't have
Speaker 7: any money. So when they asked for money, what does
Speaker 7: Brady do. Does he offer to give them the money
Speaker 7: that they need for rent or what does he offer
Speaker 7: as a solution for Smith and Maureene to make money.
Speaker 8: Well, in his terms, he was let's go roll a fag.
Speaker 8: They basically were going to go to a homosexual place
Speaker 8: and bring home a man and rob them and back
Speaker 8: then it was still illegal to be homosexual, and so
Speaker 8: the person probably wouldn't say anything, so that they would
Speaker 8: go go to the place, pick up the man and
Speaker 8: steal his wallet and show him on his way and
Speaker 8: nothing will happen. And see that This is a really
Speaker 8: interesting story too, because I know the way that it's
Speaker 8: portrayed is not the way that it happened. And we
Speaker 8: find this out later, Like why they left the suitcases
Speaker 8: at the train stations was because they had they could
Speaker 8: leave them there unchecked, and they had like a little
Speaker 8: pick up places there. But what was going on for
Speaker 8: years is that Ian Brady was going to train stations
Speaker 8: and picking up men. In Manchester at that time in
Speaker 8: the mid sixties, there was a few parks, but the
Speaker 8: main place to pick up other men that wanted to
Speaker 8: be with men was on a train station, and that's
Speaker 8: actually where he picked up Edward Evans. But initial story
Speaker 8: that David Smith told the copse was not that it
Speaker 8: was that they met at a pub. So David Smith
Speaker 8: lied throughout the first story to the police, which made
Speaker 8: me question what he really knew and what he didn't know,
Speaker 8: because however you take it, you know, he said that
Speaker 8: he waited at home with his wife in his apartment,
Speaker 8: and and then Myra came over, you know, real late
Speaker 8: at night, knocked on the door, said that Ian needs
Speaker 8: your help, and he came over. And even that is
Speaker 8: different between the two of them, it's confusing. But either way,
Speaker 8: he comes in and he and Ian brady Is starts
Speaker 8: hacking up Edward Evans, the guy the homosexually picked up
Speaker 8: at the bar, and and you know, David Smith of
Speaker 8: course said so I had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 8: I helped him clean up, and so did Hinley. And
Speaker 8: in fact, Henley got away with that in the sense
Speaker 8: that they had no real evidence to prove that she
Speaker 8: was in the room during the killing. But that I
Speaker 8: still think there's some things missing about this killing and
Speaker 8: what went on, because the things just don't jive with
Speaker 8: any of the any of what they said.
Speaker 7: You right, that Ian snuck up on this Edward Evans,
Speaker 7: seventeen year old that he had lured into his home
Speaker 7: and then said from behind the couch he had an axe,
Speaker 7: So we start trying to hit him with the axe.
Speaker 7: He of course, he wasn't totally surprised, and then turned
Speaker 7: around and the axe bounced off his forehead. He hacked
Speaker 7: at him another ten times and still couldn't kill him.
Speaker 7: And then according to Smith, I guess he handed the
Speaker 7: acts to Brady, handed the acts of Smith so that
Speaker 7: those fingerprints would be on there now. According to Smith,
Speaker 7: he was involved with this taking the body upstairs in
Speaker 7: the course of this altercation. Apparently Brady had sprained his ankle.
Speaker 7: They put him up in the upstairs room because Brady thought,
Speaker 7: what's the rush and besides, I have this sprained ankle here.
Speaker 7: But Smith goes back to the home that he shares
Speaker 7: with Maureen, and one way or another, Maureen is told.
Speaker 7: What does he tell Maureen about what he had done
Speaker 7: the night before with Ian Brady and Myra and what
Speaker 7: as a result to Maureen and David Smith do.
Speaker 8: Well, you know, he told them of the plan of
Speaker 8: robbing and that uh there was just supposed to get
Speaker 8: some money, but Ian Brady uh had had killed him
Speaker 8: and Andy. He said that he felt threatened and so she,
Speaker 8: Maureen talked him into going to the cops. And that
Speaker 8: was the basic idea. Well, and and even some of
Speaker 8: that story is not what it is either. I've written
Speaker 8: in how they went to uh, you know, a phone
Speaker 8: box and called and the police came and got them,
Speaker 8: and there's there's, there's all sorts of variations. But eventually
Speaker 8: they went to the cops and they told them the story,
Speaker 8: and that was the first time the cops looked into it,
Speaker 8: and they decided to come back to Ian Brady and
Speaker 8: Myra Hindley's house and then they decided they were going
Speaker 8: to check it out, and that was where it all started.
Speaker 7: At you, right, though, that there wasn't part of the
Speaker 7: master plan. Was that if they were to be caught,
Speaker 7: that tell us what this plan was in case they
Speaker 7: were caught.
Speaker 8: In terms of the gun, well, well, I didn't want
Speaker 8: to give away that part for a particular reason for
Speaker 8: something later.
Speaker 7: Okay, Well, when you talk about the police search here,
Speaker 7: now you write that according to the killers themselves, that
Speaker 7: they cleaned up as much blood as they could for
Speaker 7: the three hours, and they tied up the body in
Speaker 7: a fetal position and put it in the bedroom. When
Speaker 7: the police come bang on the door, Myra tries to
Speaker 7: say that her husband isn't home, and they catch Ian
Speaker 7: by surprise with that as well. Though, what is the
Speaker 7: mistake the misstep that the police do and why that
Speaker 7: Myra is not arrested for a few days later. So
Speaker 7: tell us the circumstances and why the police made the
Speaker 7: arrest of Ian Brady. And again, not at at at
Speaker 7: the time was David Smith arrested either. Tell us about
Speaker 7: this how this worked?
Speaker 8: Well, well, I think I think with David Smith, they
Speaker 8: were thinking he was on the up and up and
Speaker 8: he was probably would be a witness. And so when
Speaker 8: they first showed up to the house, yeah, they surprised
Speaker 8: them because the cop wore a baker jacket. Excuse me,
Speaker 8: when she opened the door, she didn't know it was cops, right,
Speaker 8: she thought it was a brad man. And what they
Speaker 8: did was they searched the basic part of the house
Speaker 8: and there was nothing, and then they went upstairs and
Speaker 8: then there was the one room and it was locked,
Speaker 8: and so they wanted to see in it, and Myra said, no,
Speaker 8: the keys at my work. And they said, well, we'll
Speaker 8: take you to your work and get the key and
Speaker 8: come back then. So of course she all of a
Speaker 8: sudden found it. And so then they went up through
Speaker 8: the room and they found the body, and.
Speaker 7: They make their rest of Ian Brady. And you say
Speaker 7: that what you write a book is it takes four
Speaker 7: days later October eleventh, nineteen sixty five, un til Myra's
Speaker 7: arrested for an accessory. But in that four days, what
Speaker 7: does she do in terms of some of the evidence
Speaker 7: and those master plans that.
Speaker 8: We spoke about, Well, her whole idea was to make
Speaker 8: sure they were all all taken care of rap you know,
Speaker 8: and hidden away. And during the days when she was
Speaker 8: out as well, they the police took her dog and
Speaker 8: they were took her dog for some testing and the
Speaker 8: dog died, and of course she blamed them for killing
Speaker 8: the dog on purpose. And it was really about the
Speaker 8: way the hares were found and how they were found
Speaker 8: in different parts of the body. And in fact, with
Speaker 8: Edward Evans, with.
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Speaker 8: They knew that Ed Evans and Ian Brady had been
Speaker 8: naked together, and it was suggested that they had actually
Speaker 8: had sex before the killing, because all of the hairs
Speaker 8: were found inside of their clothes on their body, so
Speaker 8: they both must have been naked on the carpet and
Speaker 8: in the front room. So that was one thing. So
Speaker 8: that's why they wanted to test the dog. But again
Speaker 8: she thought that the police had, you know, it killed
Speaker 8: it on purpose, and so her idea was to make
Speaker 8: sure that everything was hidden and or put away or
Speaker 8: destroy if she could.
Speaker 7: You write that Smith told police of the suitcases at
Speaker 7: the train station, so the police found the locker with
Speaker 7: the suitcases, and there are nine photos of Leslie and
Speaker 7: as you write in poses that so disgusting, like she's
Speaker 7: praying for her life, kneeling down, so outrageous. Photos of
Speaker 7: Leslie ten year old, and the tape recording of the torture,
Speaker 7: which you have included that transcript for readers, and also
Speaker 7: you write about those photos that they did they saw
Speaker 7: so that they used that information to try to find
Speaker 7: where these people were buried at the moors. They gave
Speaker 7: immunity for David Smith to testify against a couple. And
Speaker 7: in October sixteen they found Leslie and Downey's body, and
Speaker 7: you write the horror of the mother and eventually had
Speaker 7: to listen to those tapes, didn't.
Speaker 8: She Yeah, yeah, And in fact even they couldn't even
Speaker 8: take the like in trial trial and when even the
Speaker 8: reading of it and stuff, uh was it was just
Speaker 8: too too graphic and especially for the Times, not as
Speaker 8: much so now, but definitely back with the Times. And
Speaker 8: then all of the pictures and they had to describe
Speaker 8: all the gear and and you know, you really had
Speaker 8: a play by play of how your ten year old
Speaker 8: was tortured and had sex with and killed, and you know,
Speaker 8: it's just it's something that you know, it's it's one
Speaker 8: of the most awful parts of the case.
Speaker 7: You write that police also found the body of John
Speaker 7: Kilbride and that was December second, so there was charges
Speaker 7: against Myra and Ian Brady for that. You write also
Speaker 7: that the death penalty in Britain, the Death Penalty Act
Speaker 7: was passed, so the only possibility for these monsters was
Speaker 7: to be life in prison was all they could be.
Speaker 7: You write about the circus that was the trial. I
Speaker 7: found it interesting tell us about the protective measures that
Speaker 7: they did, that they installed in that court, and why.
Speaker 8: Well they well, with their courts are set up differently
Speaker 8: than than than than ours over here, and the people
Speaker 8: on trial, so Hinley and Brady are up on their
Speaker 8: own little stadium. It's it's almost like an up little
Speaker 8: stage there, and they actually had to put the bullet
Speaker 8: proof glass in around it. And there was so many
Speaker 8: people trying to get in and kill and there was
Speaker 8: a bomb scare, and one of the parents had had
Speaker 8: broke into the court with a gun, and there was
Speaker 8: tons and tons of stories that were going on. Then
Speaker 8: it became it was just so high, you know, the
Speaker 8: trial of the century. I think, oh, there's always one,
Speaker 8: isn't there? And this was at that point. And I
Speaker 8: think the worst part was was because everybody it was
Speaker 8: all dealing with children and the suffering, the raping, and
Speaker 8: how they were killed, and they were cruel, cold blooded murderers,
Speaker 8: and just people didn't know how to handle it. In
Speaker 8: polite society you might say mm hm.
Speaker 7: He also talked about the the plexiglass or the protective
Speaker 7: measures for the threats against this couple, but also that
Speaker 7: that Ian Brady would spit on witnesses. So it was
Speaker 7: also to protect them from being spat on by this killer,
Speaker 7: wasn't it.
Speaker 8: Yeah. Ian Brady has or had a real high opinion
Speaker 8: of himself. He's a very smart man and read well
Speaker 8: read and understood things. And and in a lot of
Speaker 8: the readings I put in some of the some of
Speaker 8: the different things, I thought that there were point poignant
Speaker 8: about the letters he had he had written, and you know,
Speaker 8: he sort of he he sort of felt what he
Speaker 8: did to these children was something that was almost expected.
Speaker 8: I don't want to say deserved, but it was expected.
Speaker 8: His behavior was what it should have been, and he
Speaker 8: should have not been in prison for it. And he
Speaker 8: wrote a book called The Janice, you know, the an
Speaker 8: he talks, yeah, and he talks about all the other
Speaker 8: serial killers at de Sime in it, and he talks
Speaker 8: about how the things that they understood and don't understand
Speaker 8: and even when when you're saying and how the early
Speaker 8: parts of his story were that he used to torture
Speaker 8: animals and stuff, and how he said that that never happened.
Speaker 8: He loved animals. That a real serial killer that's you know, destined,
Speaker 8: such as himself to do what he's supposed to do,
Speaker 8: would never hurt an animal. So, like you know, he
Speaker 8: gives lectures on how the psychiatrists and the whole profiling
Speaker 8: of today's society is wrong, and it's based on a
Speaker 8: lot of formulas that are inaccurate. So he kind of
Speaker 8: takes it apart. Just it's a totally interesting character, not
Speaker 8: what you expect. It's the least I can say.
Speaker 7: Certainly too, that this story does not end after this trial.
Speaker 7: You talk about the trial, one hundred pieces one hundred
Speaker 7: and fifty pieces of evidence. David Smith was the star witness.
Speaker 7: They pleaded not guilty, of course, but they were convicted
Speaker 7: and sentenced to life. There was eighty six witnesses and
Speaker 7: they said goodbye to each other, Ian and Myra one
Speaker 7: last time before they would not see each other again. However,
Speaker 7: they did write letters from each other once a week
Speaker 7: for quite a while in German.
Speaker 8: Right, Yeah, yeah, they were they they seemed to be
Speaker 8: in love and they seemed to be very connected for
Speaker 8: about five years. And the breakdown came when Myra Hindley
Speaker 8: decided she would tell them where that body of Keith
Speaker 8: Bennett was right, and and that's was the breakdown because
Speaker 8: because she could go up, she could actually get parole,
Speaker 8: believe it or not. So yeah, so so she was
Speaker 8: going to do this in order to set herself up
Speaker 8: to be in good light for parole. And uh and
Speaker 8: when Brady heard that, he got mad. And then so
Speaker 8: Brady offered to go first, and that's when the whole
Speaker 8: charade started. And he went and couldn't find and then
Speaker 8: she went, and then he went and she went, and
Speaker 8: nothing came out of it other than a circus and
Speaker 8: more upset for the family. And so, yeah, they had
Speaker 8: stopped writing then, and the few things that he wrote
Speaker 8: about her back then was pretty pretty treacherous. He said
Speaker 8: some awful things about her. He suggests that they didn't
Speaker 8: even have a relationship that was sexual, that they were
Speaker 8: just helping each other achieve what they wanted. They understood
Speaker 8: each other. Yeah, it was pretty pretty crazy stuff.
Speaker 7: You're right too. In nineteen seventy three that Myra found
Speaker 7: love lesbian prison official and then from there they with
Speaker 7: a trustee, they planned to escape from the prison.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that didn't work out. No, it didn't work out,
Speaker 8: but they made a big plan and she fell in
Speaker 8: love and her in this guard and other other inmate
Speaker 8: were gonna do it and break out, but they got caught,
Speaker 8: the guard got fired and got sentenced to five or
Speaker 8: six years something like that. Not real heavy. I'm surprised,
Speaker 8: and and that that that was a wash. But it's
Speaker 8: interesting because, uh, Mayra Hindley must have had an incredible
Speaker 8: charisma about her, because even speaking to people afterwards, the
Speaker 8: head of the church said, uh, he said that he
Speaker 8: would trust her with his own children. Uh. The minister
Speaker 8: that that that runs and said that she was a
Speaker 8: beautiful person and that uh yeah, and uh, I just
Speaker 8: and she's found God, and uh she she should be
Speaker 8: let let free and and he would have no problem
Speaker 8: if she's stayed with him and took after her kids.
Speaker 8: And it was just I don't understand it. But it's
Speaker 8: not the first time that's happened with these kind of prisoners,
Speaker 8: is it.
Speaker 7: So you write too that two decades later, a psychiatrist
Speaker 7: diagnosed Brady as a psychopath, no surprise. And with this
Speaker 7: he had a hunger strike which went from ninety nine
Speaker 7: to twenty twelve. And you don't really say what the
Speaker 7: reason for that is. We talked about this. Actually him
Speaker 7: getting published from this Pharaoh Publishing called the Gates of Janice,
Speaker 7: espousing his philosophy and theories and just his take on life.
Speaker 7: But you also write that in November twenty ninth, nineteen
Speaker 7: eighty four, Sunday People journalist Fred Harrison visited him. This
Speaker 7: was the first person to have visited him in nine years,
Speaker 7: and he was asking him questions about Pauline Reid, Keith
Speaker 7: Bennett's murders and this book eventually was Jennie of the
Speaker 7: Moore's Murders. What do you make of this or tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit about the interviews that he that
Speaker 7: he agreed to and what he said to Fred Morris,
Speaker 7: Fred Harrison, pardon.
Speaker 8: Me, I think they're probably the best you're gonna get.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 8: He did an incredible job at getting a lot of
Speaker 8: things out of Brady. And do you know he he
Speaker 8: was able to get more of the truth out I think,
Speaker 8: and and so so a lot of the a lot
Speaker 8: of what you get out of there is it sounds
Speaker 8: very realistic. It doesn't sound like there's any pretense. Uh.
Speaker 8: And and Brady kind of laid it out pretty much.
Speaker 8: I think how it was well, his hunger strike was
Speaker 8: because it was originally he was put in in a
Speaker 8: insane prison, and because of a problem, they moved him
Speaker 8: into a wakefield, which was a real prison for you
Speaker 8: know killers, and he hated it there. And so his
Speaker 8: hunger strikes were always about trying to get be put
Speaker 8: back into a hospital prison rather than a than a
Speaker 8: you know, a real prison as they say. So that
Speaker 8: was that was his main beef with the with the
Speaker 8: hunger strikes and stuff like that. But I think the
Speaker 8: best thing that you get out of Harrison's interviews is
Speaker 8: a lot about secrets, things that Brady did that we
Speaker 8: still don't really know. Like there was times where Myra
Speaker 8: would take him to a certain part of town and
Speaker 8: leave him, or take him to a movie theater and
Speaker 8: she'd have to wait outside, she wouldn't be allowed to
Speaker 8: watch the movie with him, and then she would pick
Speaker 8: him up and bring him back home, and later two
Speaker 8: days later you'd found out about someone that had been
Speaker 8: murdered in the theater. And so there was just a
Speaker 8: lot of I think confessions and also some really unique
Speaker 8: things that he said to people. I said during this
Speaker 8: interview about people, and so I think I think it
Speaker 8: opens the door to a whole lot of other murders
Speaker 8: and a whole other lifestyle that was going on with
Speaker 8: Brady that has been missed and probably will never come
Speaker 8: out now that he's dead as well.
Speaker 7: He died in prison and she lived.
Speaker 8: He died first. No, actually she died first. Oh, pardon me, Yeah,
Speaker 8: he just died. Yeah, he just died here just seventeen
Speaker 8: when we were actually writing the second part of the book.
Speaker 8: We got one of the last letters from him just
Speaker 8: before he died in seventeen. So yeah, it's yeah, and
Speaker 8: she had already passed.
Speaker 7: Yeah, sorry, I knew that from a past episode actually,
Speaker 7: So for that mistake, I want to thank you very
Speaker 7: much for coming on and talking about the Moore's murders,
Speaker 7: Ian Brady and Myra Hindley serial Killers. This is the
Speaker 7: British Criminal's Volume three. This is a R. J. Parker publication.
Speaker 7: Tell us a little bit about your website and also
Speaker 7: refer us to your podcast House of Mystery for people
Speaker 7: that might not know about it.
Speaker 8: My own website has just been put up alanar Warren
Speaker 8: dot com and it's got all the books or the
Speaker 8: different publishers or people, and the ones I'm working are now,
Speaker 8: the ones that are coming out this year and kind
Speaker 8: of future plans. And it does mention the radio on
Speaker 8: there as well. The radio show itself is just called
Speaker 8: House of Mystery at houseo Mystery dot com. It's based
Speaker 8: in Seattle, and it plays in Seattle and LA and
Speaker 8: it gets podcast later, but it's broadcast on the live stations.
Speaker 8: So but there you go.
Speaker 7: Look for that absolutely great program. Thank you very much,
Speaker 7: Alan R. Warren for coming on and talking about the
Speaker 7: war's murder. It's been a pleasure, Thank you very much,
Speaker 7: and hope to talk to you again soon and I
Speaker 7: know we'll be talking again real soon. Thank you very much.
Speaker 7: You have a great evening you too.
Speaker 8: Good Night, good night.