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ZipRecruiter is so effective 41 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.680 that eighty percent of employers who post on zip recruiter 42 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:42.400 get a quality candidate through the site within the first day. 43 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:47.599 And right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free 44 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:54.000 at this exclusive web address ZipRecruiter dot com, slash murder. 45 00:02:54.560 --> 00:03:02.280 That's ZipRecruiter dot com, slash m r d er, ZipRecruiter 46 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:07.800 dot com slash murder, zip recruiterer the Smartest way to hire. 47 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:15.639 It was in Manchester, England, in nineteen sixty five when 48 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:18.800 the police were called to a possible crime scene at 49 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:23.280 the residence of Ian Brady and girlfriend Myra Hindley. What 50 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:27.039 they found in the upstairs spare bedroom were the remains 51 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.599 of seventeen year old Edward Evans, who had been cut 52 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:35.960 into pieces with an axe. After an investigation and search, 53 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:39.080 the police found two suitcases that were full of graphic 54 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.599 pictures and a videotape of a young ten year old girl, 55 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:47.439 Leslie Ann Downey, who had been missing for months. The 56 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:51.879 pictures showed Leslie tied up and tortured. The tape recorded 57 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:55.960 the assault and when heard at the police station, made 58 00:03:55.960 --> 00:04:00.719 people cry and some even vomit. Wrey is about to 59 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:05.000 unfold shock not only the UK, but also the entire world. 60 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:09.199 Soon they would become known as the Moore's Murders, one 61 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:12.159 of the most infamous serial murder cases to come out 62 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:17.160 of Britain. This book by journalist Alan R. Warren not 63 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:21.199 only reviews the real facts and evidence describes what really 64 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:24.319 happened behind the closed doors of Brady and Hinley, but 65 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:27.639 also includes actual letters from Ian Brady from the last 66 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:31.279 few years of his life. These give us a unique 67 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:35.160 insight into the mind of Brady, his loves, his hates, 68 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:40.000 and his beliefs in the world of today. After reviewing 69 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:43.199 several documentaries and reading many of the books already published, 70 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.800 he realized that there were many things left unset about 71 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:50.639 this case. Even though Myra claimed innocence by not being 72 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.160 there when the rapes and murders happened, he suggests that 73 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:58.040 not only was she there, but she was intimately involved 74 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.720 in both the murders and the rape. The book that 75 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:05.759 we're featuring this evening is The Moor's Murders, Ian Brady 76 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:11.480 and Myra Hindley Serial Killers British Criminals, Volume three, with 77 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:16.959 my special guest journalist, author and podcaster Alan R. Warren. 78 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:19.560 Welcome back to the program and thank you very much 79 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.800 for greading this interview Alan R. Warren. 80 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:26.519 Well, thank you for having me. Always good to be here. 81 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.000 It's always a pleasure. You always handle some of the 82 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:38.000 most infamous and notorious serial killer cases. Let's get right 83 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:45.079 to the birth of Ian Duncan Stewart. This is January two, 84 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:49.160 nineteen thirty eight, in Glasgow, Scotland, and his mother is 85 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:52.720 named Maggie. She's an unmarried waitress. Tell us a little 86 00:05:52.720 --> 00:06:00.639 bit about Ian's life right from the very beginning in Glasgow, Scotland. 87 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:07.360 Well, he had a I don't want to say typical, 88 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:11.839 but it seemed to be fairly typical back then. Quite 89 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.199 a few brothers and sisters and uh, he he would 90 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:21.279 be taken in and out of foster cares. They don't 91 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:26.120 exactly call it that, but government care, so that you 92 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.959 know that he would be taken away from the mother 93 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:33.000 and they would him and some of the siblings would 94 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:36.680 stay there for a period of time and and sometimes 95 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:39.360 they would return and stay with the mother and father. 96 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:42.639 Sometimes they wouldn't. So he had really a back and 97 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:47.240 forth kind of life and uh, kind of kind of 98 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:50.959 a wild kid in that way, and no real discipline 99 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:57.920 and and in that in that scenario, there was a 100 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:04.319 lot of talk of abuse that happened, both physical and 101 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:09.360 sexual abuse from different people in his family as well 102 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:13.040 some of the people in the government service and churches 103 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:20.120 that would house him and his siblings. So he had 104 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:22.680 a very mixed up life at a young time. 105 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:29.240 You write that at nine years old he moved with 106 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:31.839 the neighbors that he was given to. His mother gave 107 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:34.240 him up to the neighbors for foster care, like you say, 108 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.920 and then he moved to the suburbs of Glasgow and 109 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:40.680 he didn't have access to his mother anymore. You talk 110 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:46.120 about that he entered into the shadow Lands Academy for 111 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:49.920 gifted children, and yet at the same time his violent 112 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:57.560 behavior was noticed and noted. You talk about him torturing animals, 113 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:01.839 it's noted, but also that very early on in his 114 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:08.000 childhood he was torturing children that he was from his neighborhood. 115 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:11.920 And at fifteen years old he was caught for stealing 116 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:14.959 and had a juvenile record, and he quit school and 117 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:18.639 he was taking any job he could. Now you talk 118 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:23.800 about him finally meeting or pardon me that his father, 119 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:28.000 Patrick Brady, coming into his life and tell us what 120 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:33.000 happens with Ian afterwards, under the influence of Patrick Brady. 121 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:42.440 Well Patrick was an Irish sort of man, and he 122 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.279 was a fruit seller and he at first hired Ian 123 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.279 just to be a porter, you know, pack away fruits 124 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:55.360 and sort and do things like that. And within a 125 00:08:55.360 --> 00:09:01.399 few months he was caught stealing and he was fired 126 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:05.879 and arrested as well. And by that time I think 127 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:10.120 he was seventeen. So he got sentenced to two years 128 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:16.360 in the brit British Youth Prison in Hatfield. And so 129 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.240 that was meant to reform young offenders rather than to 130 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:25.240 punish them. So it was it was a prison offen, 131 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:29.879 you know, to help them get better. It wasn't like 132 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:31.240 a punishment sort of thing. 133 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:37.759 You talk about. Fast forward now to November nineteen fifty seven. 134 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:40.960 He's released and he has a new job and he's 135 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:44.799 studying to be an accountant and so he's a talented 136 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:47.200 guy and he works at a clerk as a clerk 137 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:52.679 at this Millwards Merchandising wholesale chemical plant in Gorton, which 138 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.639 is just south of Manchester where he now resides. And 139 00:09:57.320 --> 00:10:02.279 you talk about Ian beginning his interest in reading about 140 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:07.600 the Nazis, tell us how far he goes into with 141 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:12.240 his interest in all things Nazi and also tell us 142 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:17.879 about the meeting of Myra Hindley at this no words merchandising. 143 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:18.799 How does this come about? 144 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:23.759 Yeah, so he's he's working and he works himself up 145 00:10:23.799 --> 00:10:26.879 to be kind of a lead in the in the plant. 146 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:34.279 And yeah, he's totally obsessed with Nazism. And and just 147 00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:36.480 just so you know, there's a lot of feedback I 148 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:39.960 get from the family members about this, and even during 149 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:44.639 writing and afterwards, and I still have some friction because 150 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:52.159 Ian Brady took it to learn the language inside and out. 151 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:55.679 He wanted to do everything in German. He wanted to 152 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:59.600 speak it, act it, do all the customs. He drank 153 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:05.200 his warm German wine, he had, you know, all German literature. 154 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:10.440 He was totally involved in it. But in the letters 155 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:13.679 later as we talked, just so this this points out, 156 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:20.240 he said that he absolutely despised Hitler, but what he 157 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:24.799 admired about Hitler was the ability of Hitler to be 158 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:28.960 able to control people, to be able to set up 159 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:35.759 whatever he wanted and make things functional, to make things work, 160 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:41.679 and to make people obedient. And he was just you know, 161 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:44.159 in my words, he was blown away. But he was 162 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:47.480 just totally obsessed with that. So that was that was 163 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:53.320 his obsession with Nazism, not so much being a Nazi itself. 164 00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:57.840 Now now Myra came along, I believe it was a 165 00:11:57.879 --> 00:12:00.919 couple of years later, almost three years and sixty one, 166 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:05.480 and she was a typist and so she would take 167 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:10.360 dictation for people like him and other office people in 168 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:16.159 accounting and different parts of the firm. And at first 169 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.559 Brady didn't spend any time with her, and according to 170 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.200 some of her notes, she thought that he didn't like 171 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:29.240 her and was kind of mean, but she had a 172 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:33.120 huge crush on him. She would do anything to get him, 173 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:38.399 as in she was just head over heels. So it 174 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.159 was sort of a kind of that type of relationship 175 00:12:42.039 --> 00:12:47.120 right off the get go. They would eventually meet at 176 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:50.480 one of the Christmas parties and get together and that 177 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:52.360 would be the start of their relationship. 178 00:12:55.159 --> 00:12:59.440 You write about Myra Hindley's beginnings and her broken family. 179 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:02.360 Felt father was an alcoholic and would constantly beat her, 180 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:06.960 and you include a story where a bully had knocked 181 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:10.120 her out, had beaten her, and the father made her 182 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:13.360 go back to that bully and knock him out. Otherwise 183 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.399 he said he would knock her out. So just to 184 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.240 demonstrate the kind of family she grew up and at 185 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:25.559 eight years old when she met Ian Brady again, she 186 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:31.000 was fascinated with him and as such she also decided 187 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:35.879 at his urging to learn to speak German. This is 188 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:39.320 nineteen sixty three. By the time, in nineteen sixty three, 189 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.480 what was the couple talking about and planning to do? 190 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:48.759 According to Ian Brady. 191 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:52.200 Well, there's been a lot of stories on this. They 192 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.960 would get together and they would go watch X rayed 193 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.279 films and go back home and then they would see 194 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:02.600 the two of them would only speak German at home, 195 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.440 and they would read German and drink and he even 196 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:10.279 had her dress more of a German fashion with the 197 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:14.200 high boots and the hair, and it was just sort 198 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:20.720 of that way. And they started making plans of making money, 199 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:29.600 and so the idea was to rob banks, and that's 200 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:34.440 the general consensus. 201 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:37.480 You talk about the plans that they did to rob banks, 202 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.159 and there was rules that Ian had set out so 203 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:45.480 that they could avoid detection and arrest. So everything was 204 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:51.000 written down and had this master list. And they also 205 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:56.279 at that time also his interests extended to photography, and 206 00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:58.519 so he built a dark room in his home and 207 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:03.039 start taking nude photos of Myra Hindley. Of course, at 208 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.399 some point we introduced her. You introduced Myra's sister, which 209 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:13.639 is named Maureen. Tell us what how Maureen gets interested 210 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:18.240 and in contact with Ian Brady And what did Maureen 211 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:19.799 discuss with Ian Brady. 212 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:30.480 Well, Maureen came along and she was she was a 213 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.320 little bit more shy, she was a little bit more timid, 214 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:37.279 and she didn't have the confidence of her sister, and 215 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:45.879 she was dating different people and and one person in particular, 216 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:51.360 his name was David Smith, and she eventually got pregnant 217 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:58.360 with him, and so she but at that time when 218 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:03.720 he was doing pictures and doing dark rooms, he offered 219 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.799 to take pics, some pictures of her, and that would 220 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:10.200 be in his words, he said he was doing it 221 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.639 so that she could give it to the boyfriend, David, 222 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:18.759 you know, so some erotic pictures, you know, and and 223 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:23.480 things like that, so you know, And and that's how 224 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:28.000 they met up with David. And David was a person 225 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:32.480 that needed money, and so Ian Brady thought him as 226 00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:36.519 a perfect candidate to bring him in on the bank robberies. 227 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:43.840 To add to this story as well, Maureen tells Brady 228 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:48.000 that her new boyfriend had been seen with Myra's neighbor 229 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.759 which was named Pauline Reid, and she thought that David 230 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.240 was still or she believed that David was still playing 231 00:16:55.279 --> 00:17:00.519 the field. And to add to this, the Hendle family 232 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.799 didn't like David. They thought he was too young, and 233 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.160 they thought they knew he had a record, and they 234 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:08.440 also they just didn't like him. They just didn't think 235 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:15.000 he was suited for for their daughter. Maureen. Now tell 236 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:19.759 us what happens with this quest for money? What David 237 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.799 Smith has to have wants to that money. But Ian 238 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:27.680 Brady believes that David Smith might be a candidate to 239 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.200 help them in their At first, when they think when 240 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:34.599 they're planning robberies, why do they think that David Smith 241 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:37.279 would be a person that they could trust. 242 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:41.599 Well, well, David Smith was on you know, on the 243 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:44.079 wrong side of the track. See, he never finished school. 244 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:47.119 He had he had a lot of criminal activity in 245 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:50.200 the past of stealing things. He was kind of a 246 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:55.200 just a wayward kid. He was a year younger than Maureen, 247 00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:00.640 and he didn't seem to have any uh, any problems 248 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:05.279 doing anything. And he started hanging out with the couple 249 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:07.880 a lot. And when you mentioned that, when they saw 250 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:16.000 Pauline read, yeah, they his sister Myra for sure thought 251 00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:20.119 that he was still playing the field. He and Pauline 252 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:23.640 Reid was their neighbor. And when she came home, she 253 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:26.599 wants to know why he would be hanging it out 254 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:32.200 with her when you know she's he's got her sister pregnant. 255 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:36.039 So and you're right, the family couldn't stand him. He 256 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:43.519 was a criminal, no schooling, bad behavior. It was just 257 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:48.200 it was just all the way around, just the wrong person. 258 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.839 You know, you write that. 259 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:57.359 On July twelfth, nineteen sixty three, Pauline Reid is on 260 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.400 her way to a dance at a social club minute 261 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.119 walk from her home. She'd called a couple of friends 262 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:06.359 to come along, but they refused as alcohol was being 263 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:11.000 served there. As she is there, there's a black van 264 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:17.400 with Myra in that van. She asked Pauline where she's 265 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:22.240 going to advance? And of course this Pauline recognized Myra 266 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:27.440 because there were neighbors. What was the ruse that Myra 267 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:32.799 used to get Pauline into that car and to the 268 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.079 Saddleworth Moor's area. 269 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:42.240 Well, she had said she'd lost a glove, which which 270 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:46.640 was an important thing back then, and when she was 271 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.559 up there, and because they had time before the party 272 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:52.599 would start. She offered to give her a couple of 273 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.599 records as well if she'd come help her. And so 274 00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:58.960 the story is that she got in the car and 275 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:01.599 they drove up to the moon and they would go 276 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:06.440 looking for the glob and you know, according according to Ian, 277 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:13.079 he was waiting across the street with his motorbike and 278 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:17.559 just sitting and when he saw a person that he 279 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.200 thought would be interesting or someone they could pick up, 280 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:25.599 he would flash his light headlight at her, and that's 281 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:28.240 how she knew who she was supposed to pick up. 282 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:31.799 So that that's kind of the story of how we 283 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:36.559 hear it originally, and so that's why she picks her up, 284 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:40.079 takes her out to the moors, and the couple is 285 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:45.359 just sitting on the back of the little van that 286 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.680 she had rented, and they were going to look for 287 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:52.680 the glove, and along comes Ian and that's how the 288 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:54.920 that's how it started. 289 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.000 What do they do to this young girl? 290 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:06.640 Between them, Well, there's two versions, but the main the 291 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:15.880 main idea is according to Hinley, Ian Brady uh took 292 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:18.960 Pauline read and they walked through the field looking for 293 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:23.519 the glove, while Myra was going to stay back and 294 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:26.680 keep an eye on the on the car, I guess. 295 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.960 And about an hour later, Ian came back by himself 296 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:36.519 and said, hey, you know, come with me, and they 297 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:39.880 went to a spot where they had pre you know, 298 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:45.440 planted a shovel and then he went to get that 299 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:49.400 and uh. And then when they got to Pauline Reid, 300 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:55.559 Myra said that Pauline Reid was what had her clothes 301 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:58.359 all back on, but they had been disheveled, so she 302 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.960 had obviously been raped, she thought, but she didn't know 303 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:07.200 for sure. And then she had been strangled. And so 304 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:12.559 what they did was they buried the body and in 305 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:19.960 essence came back after that. But Ian Brady had a 306 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:28.880 completely different story. Ian Ian Brady, you know, said that 307 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:34.039 said that what happened was that he had no idea 308 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.079 who she was going to pick up. Hindley was going 309 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:38.839 to pick up who she was going to pick up. 310 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:42.160 He was just going to follow them there, and by 311 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:46.880 the time he got out there, basically she had already 312 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:56.559 attacked and raped Pauline Reid, and then she ended up 313 00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:58.960 dead and buried as usual. So you kind of have 314 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:07.519 two sides here of what really happened. It's hard, you know, 315 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:10.599 So that's kind of how I write. I wrote the 316 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:13.359 book so that people would understand kind of how each 317 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.160 of them goes at it and how each of them 318 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:18.720 explains it. But I think by the time you get 319 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.079 through all of the crimes, you start to realize whose 320 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.440 patterns sound more accurate and who doesn't. 321 00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:27.319 Yeah, And then that's why I say that I think 322 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:31.960 the Ian Brady versions seem to be more likely truthful, 323 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:36.599 since he has no self interest in protecting himself in this. 324 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.279 So anyway, we'll get to that a little bit later. 325 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.839 You talk about that there was no there was no 326 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.920 police leads in this whatsoever. After this, and two months later, 327 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:56.920 Ian and Myra are back at Moore's hanging out again. 328 00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:59.920 They go there to drink. But what they saw that 329 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:07.240 was the North Sea Gas Company were digging. What what 330 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:09.680 did they do as a result of this gas company 331 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:13.119 digging in the area where the graves were or the grave. 332 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:17.559 Was, well that that really freaked them out, right, of course, 333 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:20.920 they were like totally in shock. They didn't know what 334 00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:24.480 they were going to do. It was so close to 335 00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:30.480 where it was. They were so worried that the body 336 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:34.559 would be found. You see, because at the time, Pauline 337 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:39.200 was considered to have just met a guy and ran away. 338 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.960 That was kind of the concept. Sixteen year old girl 339 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:48.160 and she just, you know, she wasn't getting along with 340 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:53.200 her mother and she just took off and was gone 341 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:55.519 that way. So and it seemed to it seemed to 342 00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:59.359 satisfy a lot of the people. So so that wasn't 343 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.680 so people. So that's why when you say the police 344 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.920 weren't really looking by then. So when they had gone 345 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:08.799 up to the Mors, which they liked to do all 346 00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:12.440 the time, and they realized that one of the big 347 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:16.200 companies was planning a big pipe groupe through where they 348 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:20.039 were going, they knew there was going to be trouble, 349 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:26.440 you know, so they decided they would have to changed 350 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.680 the locations, you know, of where they're going to start 351 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.759 burying people and where they're going to start hiding out 352 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:34.799 you know things. 353 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:39.480 Now you say, they decided to go to a new 354 00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:42.559 area for their next victim, and so they went to 355 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:46.920 a place called Ashton under Lean and they went to 356 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:50.119 this Ashton market. This time they rented a car. Again, 357 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:53.960 this is part of their devious plan to change cars 358 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:59.079 and avoid anybody seeing patterns with these people. As in 359 00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:02.240 terms of witness you also write that at the same time, 360 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:07.440 just a coincidence that President Kennedy's assassination is all over 361 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:12.400 radio and TV. And you introduced this Sheila and Pat Kilbride, 362 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:15.880 and that's the parents of John Kilbride. He's twelve years old, 363 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:22.000 November twenty third. Now he's asked his parents to go 364 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:25.960 to the movies with his friend, and these boys. After 365 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:28.759 the movie decide to go to the market because there's 366 00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:32.240 an opportunity for these boys to make some extra cash 367 00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:37.880 at this market. Around six o'clock, you write that Pat, 368 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:42.119 pardon me, that John Kilbride's friend, John Ryan, decides to 369 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:47.920 go home. So what happens to John Kilbride and how 370 00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:50.359 does he meet Ian and Myra? 371 00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:55.039 Well, yeah, so a lot of the kids did this, 372 00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.240 so you know, after the show and then it was 373 00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.519 the same time that the market was closing up and 374 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:02.519 they could get a few extra coins. Were helping clean 375 00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:05.680 up things and sometimes they get some food or left 376 00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:10.480 over things. And so the two boys stayed and it 377 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:15.359 was becoming really bad weather, fog came in. It was six, 378 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:18.359 it was dark, so the one boy left, John Ryan, 379 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:23.279 he did leave, and so Kilbride was still at the 380 00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.119 garbage bin when he left and was going to stay 381 00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:29.279 there as long as he could to make a little 382 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:36.480 bit more money if he could. And what happened, of course, 383 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:43.519 was Brady and Mayra found him. And again the stories 384 00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:46.720 are different, but basically Mayra was the one that would 385 00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:52.720 approach the boys for sure, because you know, even if 386 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.440 the variance is in their story, it was much easier 387 00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:01.039 for a pretty girl with blonde hair and and address 388 00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:04.599 to come up and speak nice to the boys and say, hey, 389 00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:08.640 how are you doing? And and and in that particular case, 390 00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:10.559 she went up to him and said she had lost 391 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:15.640 her glove, and you know, and so she wanted to, 392 00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:20.960 you know, get she wanted some help. And when she 393 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:23.480 took him to the cars again, she had some seventy 394 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:27.519 eight albums, which back then seventy eight was the common 395 00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:34.039 play speed for a record, and she said that she 396 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:39.279 would give him a couple of records, and and that's 397 00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:41.480 how they got him in the car and they were 398 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:44.640 going to go look for the glove, and they drove 399 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.319 to the moors. And it's the it's kind of like 400 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:53.039 the same old story there now on this particular case. 401 00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:56.000