Speaker 1: What is up, Fellasicicos.
Speaker 2: I am jan Valley coming at you with the one,
the only, my certified fantabulous co host, mister Grant Hughes.
We are gathered here today to do something no other podcast,
no other.
Speaker 1: Content creator had done. That's some NBA awards checked in
check ins.
Speaker 2: We're gonna do it around the quarter pole. Stuff happens
we did other episodes, so we're gonna check in slightly
at We're not at the we're not one third of
the way through the season yet, Grant, but we're past
the quarter pole. So these are our quarter check ins.
These these are our December ahead of trade season NBA
award check ins. So that's how we're gonna frame it.
Our biggest question of the episode, though, Grant, how the
heck are you? Uh?
Speaker 3: I feel satisfied because we're proving that we don't. You know,
there's like a rush to be first, right, and that's
that's poisoned news and sports media, not us.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 3: We're not trying to be first with first quarter awards
are way past the first quarter, so these will all
be I don't know, like better right because we've taken
more time to think about them. It's not because we
just couldn't find time to get around to them, So
disabuse yourself of that notion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I hate, I don't hate is a strong word,
but the discourse around so many of the wards just
gets out of control sometimes, and so I almost dread
doing them because I know that we're going to make
some people super unhappy with it, especially especially when it
comes to the NBA's MVP race. And have you been
has your mind been polluted at all by all the
other takes out there? Did you find yourself swayed one
way or the other before we really dig in because
of what's out in the ether at the moment.
Speaker 3: Well, let's uh, First of all, your contact with the
ether is far greater than mine, so I'm I'm peripherally
aware of the MVP discussion, But maybe let's just get
into it because that's I think that's the most I
don't feel like anxiety about it or be like, don't
you think that the MVP discussion at the top, which
is between Shay gilg Just Alexander and Nicole Jokic is
exactly the same discussion we had last year, except both
of them are playing better, So it's just like it's
the same. It's it's a good point to like, oh
my god, Yokic is on off and like look at
the counting stats and it's like, yeah, those are way better.
So is he the MV Well not necessarily, because Shay
is averaging thirty two and six and five and is
making forty five percent of it. It's just like there.
Speaker 1: Hits pull up threes now in high volume.
Speaker 3: All of a sudden, all of the same elements are there,
and we can get into them too as we look
at the ballot.
Speaker 2: Right, and so we can get to the ball I
actually have a more fat like I guess it's related
to the ballot, but I have a bigger question that
I just find more instructive than the entire MVP process.
But let's throw the ballots up there. They are entirely
the same for us, which is, so do you want.
Speaker 3: To which is really disappointing in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: Right, Uh, do you want to take us through what
our ballots are?
Speaker 3: Our joint Yeah, we don't have to say this is
my ballot, this is our collective ballot. We both have
Jokic won Shay two. To me, there's a pretty substantial
drop off after that, like, I don't really care what
order the rest, you know, the next like three to
seven players you have are you should have all these
guys in some order. But Luca third, Kid, Cunningham fourth,
Jannis fifth. The calf injury is a factor, Like he's
you know, he's probably all for awards. This is his
last appearance on the NBA, right right, Sure, But that's
the other thing. This is the first quarter, so it's
like he's good because you can't play sixty five games
in the first quarter.
Speaker 1: We should have said that at the top.
Speaker 2: These are who were These are the players we are
picking based off everything we've seen so far.
Speaker 1: We're not doing any projecting.
Speaker 3: Right, not a prediction of who will win the award.
I mean obviously like this is who it is now,
so good chance a bigger picture, but yeah, this is
based on the games that have occurred to this point.
I wonder if we have well, we probably don't have
the same kind of like bigger picture question about the MVP,
So I'll defer to you what what's the sort of
macro you wanted to talk about.
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of people use two differentiations when
it seems like they're going shay over Jokic, which I
think at least one of them is legitimate. If you
want to look at this and say the thunder or
scoring opponents by nineteen points per one hundred posessions, which
say on the floor they're probably gonna win more than
seventy three games. They are a legendary defense of which
he is an active participant.
Speaker 1: I would say he's not one of the.
Speaker 2: Five reasons they're as good as they are defensively, but
he's an active participant in it.
Speaker 1: If you want to look at all that, see what
he's added to his.
Speaker 2: Game from a three point volume and creation perspective there,
and then what he doesn't take away from you. If
you want to say that on defense or the disruption
he creates there in the role that he's able to hold,
I think that's fine.
Speaker 1: This is truly it can be either or for me.
Speaker 2: But I look at Jokic and this is what a
lot of people have said as the differentiator.
Speaker 1: But I should make the case for Jokic. First.
Speaker 2: The Nuggets are a plus thirteen with him on the court,
plus five point eight when he's playing without Jamal Murray.
Their offensive rating is one hundred and thirty when he's
on the floor, which is just stupid. You get into
the I've become a big fan of true usage, which
incorporates traditional usage as well as assists and potential assists.
He does have a slightly higher true usage than Shay, Gilgers, Alexander,
But I just look at the burden he shoulders as
both scorer and playmaker in some as larger and more
valuable slightly than what Shay is doing. And to date,
Jokic has generated one than three hundred and seven points
off his own scoring and from assists. That is forty
five point four percent grant of Denver's entire scoring. He
is first in the league in high value assists per
one hundred possessions. Now, just to compare this to Shay,
since he's the most direct competition in terms of points
and points off assists, he's thirty nine point four percent
of Okase's offense, which is kind of insane of itself
when you realize how deep that team is. But when
I look at Jokic through that prism and the decisions
he makes, which are by and large they can be
a lot quicker than what Shay is doing on the
ball because he's reading all these other things that the
defense is doing and trying to find his teammates, and
he does so so quickly. You dig into some of
the shot quality metrics, Jokich's three point shot quality is
lower than Shay's. They're about comparable when you're looking at
their shot quality around the rim. These are two megastars
in ultra difficult roles, and you could pick whoever and
the other justification for se you want to say j
dubb has barely played this season, Dude, I agree with you.
He has the edge in EPM, Jokic has the edge
in Darko the biggest separation or well, I've just seen
this come up a few times now, and so I'm
very curious to get your take what a lot of
people have done, rather than if they think it's a tie,
defaulting to well, who's better or the thunder better than
the Nuggets, I'm gonna pick Shee. I've seen more of
who is easier to build a title contender around, and
it's Shay, and so I'm going to gravitate towards Shy. Now,
I one fundamentally disagree with that premise. I don't know
what it has to do in terms of being a
tiebreaker for this discussion, even if you do lean the
other way.
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess, like if if you're trying to
determine value because it is most valuable, I guess like
you sort the idea of who is easier to build
a title winner or contender around is like relevant to
answering or to divining value, I guess in some way,
But like that actually is. But that's not like I
don't feel like that's a reasonable basis to to Like,
that's not the same thing as asking who the MVP is.
I don't think, do you.
Speaker 2: I I want it, you should get into your case
of the MVP. But I actually want to have that
discussion of is it actually easier to build a great
team around Shay than it is around Jokic? Or have
the Thunder just done a better job of building around Shaye?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, so the fact that they have suggests
that maybe it is easier, right, Like, So there's so
many different like kind of tentacles of this conversation. So
I'm I'm fixated again on how you're defining valuable because
and again this is to some extent, this is rehashing
what we've discussed in past MVP discussions and last year
in particular, you know, take Yo Kitch off, then there's
another way to to to like try to figure it out.
Take Yo catch off the Nuggets. They're way worse with
and they're a bad team full stop. They're not They're
not a break They're bad. Take Shay off the Thunder.
They're probably one of the four best teams in the West.
It's still like, you know it, maybe it's not his fault.
I'm just saying, like, okay, well, so then if if value,
if we're talking about value to your team in particular,
Yokic is more valuable. Now that's true because his supporting
cast is worse, and what does that shouldn't have anything
to do with like how objectively good a player.
Speaker 1: Is, and it doesn't.
Speaker 3: But we're talking about valuable. So I think a lot
of people and me to some extent, I just think
of it in those terms. Again, it's it's just the
hazy definition of valuable and like what's allowed to be
considered is part of the reason that this discussion is
interesting because if if that weren't a factor, we would
just go by like higher DARKO, higher EPM. What are
the counting stats like and maybe you talk about strength
to schedule or something like that to to evaluate these things.
That the beauty of it is their teams are different
and so different in so many ways, like historically different
in the Thunders case, that it's like just difficult. It's
more difficult to split hairs here. Who is it easier
to build around? I mean, I think if you took
there's and here's the best part about this argument, there's
no way to disprove this because it'll never happen. It's impossible. Well,
if you took a like definitionally average supporting cast and
put it around Yokic, I believe that team would be
better than Shay surrounded by a definitionally average supporting cast.
And I think that's because I just view the Thunder
as so dominant in so many ways that Shay is
set up to succeed in ways that Jokic isn't. And
that's again, it's like I'm not taking anything away from him.
It's just if you have perhaps the best defense of
all time around you, like your lift on that end
of the floors is not that heavy, and if if
like you can, your team's gonna score off turnovers all
the time because your defense is so good, like, you know,
there's just ways to succeed, Like the Nuggets don't have
a way to succeed that doesn't involve Jokic like that,
you know, So I'm more comfortable saying if you put
just average dudes around both of them, Jokic's team will
be better, and good luck proving that he sort of can't.
Speaker 2: No, I mean you could do the flip too, where
you said take them off their teams and what happens
if you put Jokic on the Thunder and Shae on
the Nuggets? Are the Thunder as good as they are
right now with Jokic instead of Shay? I would say, yes,
it's not that Yeah, right win the Nuggets? Are they
as good as they are right now with Jokic? The
answer to me is probably Shay is great offensively and
he is going to do more things defensively, but what
Jokic does And look, there's been a lot of people
commenting on Yokic's defense this year.
Speaker 1: I've seen the low lights.
Speaker 2: There does feel like more moments where he's just getting
absolutely toasted. The defense of rebounding itself is still gonna
be valuable because it the way it ends possessions.
Speaker 1: He does have good hands.
Speaker 2: When he's super locked in, who becomes the base of
your defense without like there's just no there's no fallback,
Like in Denver if you're adding another if you're adding
Shay to the mix, you're still I think they're still
a great team. But it's just him and Jamal Murray.
Like the way that Jokic plays, he is intuitively an
excellent fit alongside everyone.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you could say the same.
This isn't a Shae conversation.
Speaker 2: It's about literally anyone else in the NBA, maybe with
the exception of Steph. When you're talking about scalable stardom,
so the and I I I do ultimately hate having
the discussion like this because Shay everyone's seen the number's
lowest turnover eate in history among a thirty point per
game score. The level like the burden that he shoulders
on offense for a team that does have Steph, does
have j Dubb, does have AJ Mitchell, like does have
all these good players on the team, It's it is
kind of insane. I guess where I struggle not picking
Shae over Jokic, but maybe even picking Jokic over Shay
like we did. Does it get to like, how do
you evow like it's not Shay's fault that he's on
the thunder and so you are. We just like we're
getting into things that cannot be disproven, as you said
to where it's well, I dm Jokic more valuable because
the Nuggets can't function without him, or is it the
Nuggets have helped him win this award or this discussion
by being the inferior team around him.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.
I think, and I think like this is why if
if if you have Shay as your MVP, and you're
like I believe this with every fiber of my being,
it's like got it? No? Not really don't have a
counter really like that's that's totally cool by me. Didn't
really have I think I would have to look back.
But like I think Shaye winning it last year over
Jokic was I have no problem with that, except I
still would say that Jokic is the best player in
the world. Like, I don't know how you square those
two things. I just I don't know how I can
believe be okay with Shae winning and still thinking that
part of it is just like, statistically it's stupidly close.
I think the only the only absolute certainty is is
that right now it's these two guys and a yawning
chasm and then Luca, and Luca's great, but like he's
just not. He's not where these two guys are right now.
And if you've got him in a different order, I
don't know. So this is okay, this is what We've
got A comment here that I would like to note
here on the break pod, the historic nature of what
Okaysee is doing has to mean Shae wins MVP. And
I was gonna say earlier, like if they win seventy
four games, like I don't you think, like it doesn't
matter what Jokic does, Like Shay will win MVP if
the Thunder wins seventy four games and he plays it
stays healthy, right, like it.
Speaker 2: Continues to have the highest true shooting percentage of anyone
to average over twenty points per game, which, by the way,
do you know who has previously the highest true shooting
percentage of anyone else?
Speaker 3: I have a strong suspicion basically we've been talking.
Speaker 2: About Yeah, so would you even predict right now if
we were predicting, which we're not.
Speaker 1: We're making our own ballots.
Speaker 2: I think Shay's going to win the MVP Awards, that
would be my prediction.
Speaker 3: I think I agree with you because it's not like, like,
what would the thunder are gonna finish ahead of Denver
in the standings barring just something crazy Shay home or something.
Jokic can't play better. It's not possible for a player
to play better based on what we've seen in the
history of the sport. So it's like he doesn't have
another gear to hit, right like that, So those are
the two ways that you would imagine Jokic overtaking him. Yeah,
the argument that, look, it's a team sport, right, so
like the team that does the best, there's something happening
with respect to their best player's value like that those
two things are related, right, Like even if you can
see that Shay is the fifth most important defender on
the team, and maybe even that's generous, it's like, well,
I don't know, he's clearly like the alpha, he's the
tone setter, he's the best player on this team, and
he's certainly not acting in a way that like allows
for slacking on defense, like whatever whatever lead the rest
of the Thunder are following from him, that's working, like
he's he's you know, there's all these like unquantifiable things
that go into team success that like you probably got
to credit the best player for a lot of right,
Like your team is defined by that guy, Like the
Spurs were defined by Tim Duncan, like that kind of
that kind of thing. So if the Thunder are just
leaps and bounds better as a team than the Nuggets, yeah,
it's the supporting cast is better. But like I don't know,
somewhere in there, there's credit for for Forresga, right, like
just for being the most important guy and having some
outsize level of influence on everything the Thunder do. Well,
that's not a crazy argument to me, But I don't
know how you like throw that into the mix and
use it against similar ones you could make for Jokic. So,
I don't know, we've said enough. Probably he would probably.
Speaker 2: Be shocked if we're not having the same discussion a
couple of months from now when we when we do
this again. And that's me three, I think clearly became
Dauncic for me. When you look at how much time,
you're honest, has now.
Speaker 3: Missed Wemby missing time, Wemby would have been a factor
for me top five, oh.
Speaker 1: For sure, So Wemby as well.
Speaker 2: It's just Wenby is like, well, now you've missed more
than half your team's games, so.
Speaker 3: We're not going to be a factor for me later.
Speaker 1: Just uh what.
Speaker 2: I still there's something about the Lakers that just doesn't
feel legitimate. But Luca has been spectacular, and that's with
him not even being by and large as efficient as
he could be from three yet, which is a little terrifying.
Speaker 1: But you just you look at the numbers.
Speaker 2: I think he's the easy third choice here where you
get to four and five, where we both had Kid
and Yannis. For me, some of the things that stood
out were the minutes at this point, Caid's like three
hundred plus minutes ahead of Yannis. That just matters one
quarter of the way through the season. I also think
that the Pistons having just an eight point eight net
rating with Cad Cunningham on the floor and an offense
that verges on elite statistically, that's kind of bonkers itself.
The other thing, too, is he has the third highest
true usage in the league among anyone to log at
least two hundred and fifty minutes. He's third in high
value assists per one hundred possessions. He only trails Jokic
and Grant. You want to know who's number two in
that category, Please tell me it's LaMelo ball.
Speaker 3: Oh that's not who I was expecting to hear the
break pot.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure Giannis makes it given the games. No
he won't.
Speaker 2: But again, this is just what's happened so far. So
he's played enough games for me to put him on
top five. I'm just what I think Caid's the breadth
of his role just isn't appreciated because he's a part
of their defense as well. It's not necessarily the same
as what Shaye is. Like, he's probably more important to
Detroit's defense than.
Speaker 3: Sh Yeah, I thought you were going the other way.
I think I yeah, I would make that argument. I
think Caid matters more defensively than Shaye does. And like,
so I looked this up the other day just trying
not related to this, but was looking for just like
what's wrong with the Pistons. If I had to pick something,
there's a few things caid. This was yesterday, so I
think this or maybe two days ago. He's shooting fifteen
percent on catch and shoot Threeskate Cunningham, So I suspect
that's coming up. If we're talking about Luca, it needs
to hit some threes like that's and he was at
thirty nine percent last year, which is like, yeah, forever
it's been well. The form looks good. Tho they're gonna
fall and they did buy and large last season. But
but yeah, like, I think there's room for kid to
get better too. So I don't think three is sewn up,
but I agree with you that Luca obviously my ballots
right there. I think Luca has pretty clearly been number three,
but there's some flexibility there, There's some movement there. I
think that's possible. Still.
Speaker 2: I think after two there's still three feels closed off
right now, but it's not.
Speaker 1: It'd be hard for me to imagine.
Speaker 2: I could imagine someone else usurping Luca at three then
easier than oh yeah, Luca usurping Shay or Yokich and two.
Speaker 3: One and two are done. It's it'll be those two
in some order. The longer list, guys, I don't know
if you have similar to me, but like not serious
considerations at all really for top five, but like Donovan
Mitchell Steph before he missed the time. Even with that,
Anthony Edwards, Alprin, Shangoun, Jalen Brown, Tyrese MAXI, I didn't
go any farther than that. But there's a lot of
guys that could come into the top five, especially assuming
Giannis is going to fall out.
Speaker 2: The other name, I'm both obligated to mention it and
I believe it. Jalen Brunson was someone else obviously, Yeah,
and sort of looking.
Speaker 1: At the curve balls at play.
Speaker 2: And it is a question from on the breakpod is
if the Celtics take the number one seed in the East,
does Jalen Brown.
Speaker 1: Get consideration over Kaid. He's absolutely.
Speaker 2: I mean, if we're gonna if you right off Jannis
and Wemby from being in the final ballot, I don't.
There's at least two spots in the top five that
are up for grabs, so it could be. I'm trying
to think if there's anyone we glossed over that just
comes out of left field. It's oh, it's like just
Jalen Johnson the Hawks end up being like the freeze
or something.
Speaker 1: Does he end up being on those ballots?
Speaker 3: No, there's there's This is an illustration of how early
it is because there's there's a dozen names. It could
be fourth, you know, or better.
Speaker 2: Are you able to take us through your Defensive Player
of the Year ballot controversy, Frank.
Speaker 3: Oh, you gave me first of all. So I have
Wemby at number one. I don't care about the game's played,
Like he hasn't been disqualified from the full season award
yet that's not really here, neither here nor there. He
just is transformative and everything he does on defense is
there's just never been anybody like this guy. So until
I can't pick him, I'm gonna pick him chet number two.
I have Bam number three on my ballot, which the
picture is on which hey, maybe at the end of
the year I will have a Men Thompson up there
at three. But and Bam was the like the third
spot was was tricky. I really thought about Rudy Gobert
there just because the numbers are again just sort of
undeniable in terms of this impact on the defense.
Speaker 2: They're a team like in recent vintage that you look
at the numbers on paper and it's all right, top
ten at offensive defense that you watch them and you're like,
is this the team that like, this just doesn't align
with what I'm seeing on paper.
Speaker 3: You know what's wild too with the with the Wolves
and this is not really go beart centric, although maybe
there's something to it. You know, their late game execution
is just shit. It's bad. They you know, they had
a Son's loss, a King's loss in November. They just
gave one away and I watched it and I can't
remember who the other team was now, but they shouldn't
have lost that one. And it's just like, yeah, so
they're they're underlying numbers like overall their offenses whatever six,
then their defenses not or whatever it is. They're top
ten on both ends, but like they're they're fundamentally flawed
and like how they try to score at the end
of games, and that's the thing we've known for a
long time and.
Speaker 2: Maybe like I don't know what that is, but I've
only I agree, created some first round picks for like
a top seven or a top eight. Yeah, for like
a development a water you have to use the word
water bug because that was just always in the description.
Just a water bug scoring guard that could come in
and play right away. Right, maybe he isn't able to
be rob or something the look. I can't contest you
putting Wemby at one other than to say that I
don't think he's going to qualify for and he's played
in less than half his team's games, which is why
I left him off so far. But if he's if
you think he's playing enough games, there is nobody that's
Defensive Player of the Year, Rudy Gobert, you mentioned it.
The numbers for me are just too insane. He's fifth
in RIM points saved per seventy five possessions and the
Wolves are fourteen point five points better per one hundred
possessions with him on the floor. Defensively, that's the difference
between basically being the Wizards on defense and then having
the second but being not the Thunder on defense and
in number two opponent. Rim frequency declines by twelve percentage
points when he's on the floor, and teams take a
lot of those bailout floaters against him or when he's
on the court, which they're missing because he's doing less.
When you look at the percentage of his shots contested
at the rim, and it doesn't feel like he's covering
both sides of the pick.
Speaker 3: And roll as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, at the same time, like he's still forcing dudes
to miss those type of floater shots. There's seven points
percentage worse teams are when he's on the court. I
just if you're gonna be your team's lifeline. We went
through this kind of with Jokis for MVP Rudy Gobert.
Is that defensively to Minnesota still?
Speaker 1: Now? Is that a feature or a bug of the Timberwolves?
Speaker 2: You could decide, But I think I don't know if
he'll stay here for me. But he is a one
man system still or a fringe one man system, which
this late into his career is pretty wild.
Speaker 3: We both have chet too. Did you watch any of
the of the I'll just I don't have to phrase
it that way. In the first half, which was the
was not really relevant. Pretty quickly again in the in
the Cup game against Phoenix, which is playing without Devin Booker,
the Thunder were up fifty at one point in that game.
Maybe they want it by fifty. I checked out at halftime.
I'll just admit that I was thinking that it's really
hard to apportion credit in the thunders defense, except I
think Chet just by himself does things that nobody on
that defense can do. Like, well, okay, so it's it's
Caruso and Cason Wallace and Shake and Guard and Dork
and guard. Obviously they have all these just just like
savages on the perimeter that just like you can't dribble
around right, and they're super athletic and fast and they
play hard. You can interchange all those guys. You could
take Caruso out for two months, the Thunder is still
gonna have the best defense in the league. I think
Chet the way he changes shots, like he had a
bunch of highlight blocks right where he just like got
there and the guy was on the way down and
he swats it out of bounds. But he made Royce
O'Neill miss a layup that he should have made. He
made Dylan Brooks miss layups that he should have made
just by kind of being there, and like his mobility
at that side, like Chet. Really we've talked about this before.
If not for Wemby, I think Chet would be a
great bet to win like three or four dpo Wie
over the course of his career, like he's he's he's
a wrong place, wrong time guy in terms of like
generational defenders.
Speaker 2: And even during you mentioned the ground that he could cover.
So even when you like when Isaiah Hartenstein's healthy him
they're playing together, like his ability to not be the
primary paint protector, but he's still their primary rim protector
while doing so.
Speaker 1: That's insanity. So he he was number two for me.
Speaker 2: It's like you said, it's hard to apportion credit for
the Thunder defense, but I think he's the singular most
important that it almost feels, you know, shout out to
Mike Sheer of Basketball Poetry, who does his own Interior
Defensive Player of the Year and then Perimeter Defensive Player
of the Year. I'm wondering if the league should start
to separate that. But then it's then it's also Chet
does both.
Speaker 3: Right, right right, and you would not. I mean, that's
why Bam is on my ballot. It's like the rim
protection has always been less than you want from him,
but it's it's ok. It's enough, like the Heat have
had good defenses built around him long enough that it works.
Speaker 2: Do you know what I found fascinating about BAM's case, though, is,
so the Heat's defense is significantly better with him on
the floor, and yet opponent effective field goal percentage is
noticeably higher when he's on the court.
Speaker 3: I don't know what to do with that.
Speaker 2: That I looked into it, and I don't really know
what to do with it either, other than when I
watch him, it feels like he snuffs out like eight
things on every single possession, and yeah, a lot of
the time it has nothing to do with protecting the basket.
Speaker 1: And I'm okay, I think he.
Speaker 2: Is just like is he is Bam the league's most
versatile defender.
Speaker 3: I mean, he's always on the short list. I don't
know who you'd throw up there, Like Ojiananoba used to
always be someone you'd position there, but Bam is just
a little bigger. Like I feel better with Bam on
a center than I do with OG and maybe even
I almost feel better with Bam on a point guard
than I.
Speaker 1: Do with oj, you know, I feel better about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I don't know who else I would nominate for.
I mean, Wemby, I guess, because it's not like guards
are going to victimize him ever. But that's kind of
like like he could block a three pointer from rights. Yeah,
he can get beat by three steps and still pin
it on the glass, like just from because of reach. Yeah,
I don't know. Yeah, Bam BAM's great. I'm always gonna
have Bam on these Do you have any Were there
any like tougher tough emissions since we kind of stopped
the ballot at three.
Speaker 2: Every single player on the thunder basically, I mean there
is that you know who's also tough to a port
like Detroit's defense.
Speaker 1: Who do you apportion credit for that? Is it Durant?
Speaker 2: It feels like it's Isaiah Stewart, but it's also oh
it's r Thompson and Kay Cunningham?
Speaker 1: Are there?
Speaker 3: Ron Holland like that? That's they're very thunder East in
terms of like a somebody's They're all kind of doing it.
I don't know who you single out.
Speaker 2: I thought I was like, I'm and Thompson would have
to be the guy from Houston if he wanted to
go that route. I think Draymond has not been as good,
but it's still really good.
Speaker 1: I'm marvel had he played more minutes this year.
Speaker 2: I mean, like Jealen Suggs might seek his way into
that discussion yes, I gave some consideration to Scotty Barnes too.
I think he's been The Raptors are kind of free falling,
but Scotty Barnes has been spectacular defensively.
Speaker 1: I ultimately, did you have a tough cut? Though it
wasn't like I felt.
Speaker 3: I mean, it was Gobert For me. Gobert was could
easily have been a top three. I'm trying to I'm
looking at my list. Yeah, so I go right to
the guards after those four my ballot plus Gobert, and
it's like, I'm not gonna pick Wallace or Suggs for
a top three. So Zach Edy has played eleven games
as we record this, if he had twice that many games,
he would be on the ballot, just because the numbers
are preposterous. Like he leads the league in defensive estimated
plus minus, like right now he's the league leader. And
like the yeah, right, opponent shooting at the rim just
withers when he's in the game, like the defensive rebounding he.
Speaker 2: I mean, their shooting opponents are shooting sixteen point nine
points worse at the basket with with him.
Speaker 3: And you can cite the small sample and you should,
But like, how bad would he have to be for
the next eleven games for those numbers to still not
be incredible? Like he's been so good since coming back
that like he could be objectively terrible for a week
or two and he would still have a statistical case
I think for for being among the best defensive players
in the league.
Speaker 2: Do you think, well, how many games has he missed
this season?
Speaker 3: He's played eleven out of twenty four as I'm looking
at it right.
Speaker 1: Now, so his margin for error is four games.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he so, I mean he's gonna miss form more.
It's just he's going to happen.
Speaker 1: I was about saying, do you think he'll make all defense? Wait?
Is there is there a minimum for all defense?
Speaker 3: Is that you know? I can never remember? There must be?
Because did Wemby win it last year?
Speaker 2: Oh? You're right, it's all Rookie is the one that
you can kind of throw it out the wad? Yeah,
Because I was going to ask, do you think he
could make all Yeah?
Speaker 1: But at the games play, he's just knocking.
Speaker 3: If he plays fifty games at anything close to this,
I'm gonna think real hard about about giving it. Like, yeah,
I don't care. Can we talk about, so like maybe
this isn't necessary. Most Improved is kind of the place
to talk about it. I don't know where we're going next, uh,
but like I think this the sixty five game limit,
Like why are we imposing additional rule? Like you know,
you hear people like I think you should outlaw second
year players winning Most Improved, and like if you don't
want to vote for a second year player, there's lots
of good reasons to do that, laying out of like
some kind of hard and fast rule that says you
cannot that they're ineligible. It is like so ridiculous, And
that got me thinking about the sixty five game rule.
Why are we doing this? And like how how stupid
does that rule look now when all the conversations are
about it's impossible to play NBA basketball for eighty two games,
like the physical the human body can't stand it because
it's so fast. Now it's so difficult to play, and
yet there's this rule that we have that eliminates guys
that Like the rule was stupid at the outset, and
it looks even dumber now because it was designed because
through we want TV revenue or whatever to coax these
guys to play more. It's just like how miss it's
misguided on every level. We don't need a sixty five
game qualifier to determine who the MVP is or who's
all NBA. Like, let us decide if fifty five games
at level X, what that means against seventy one at
level Y, Like we can. We can do that, It's
not hard. I just sorry that the awards putting these
artificial the constraints on award voting is so stupid to me.
Speaker 2: I think if you have personal constraint because I fall
into that MIP camp that I reach.
Speaker 3: That's fine, But that's your rule. It's not like it's
not like the sixty five game rules. Just like you
can't this guy is ineligible.
Speaker 2: Do you think that there should be a threshold all
to where it's fifty games no or something no.
Speaker 3: I can just if I can decide if forty eight
games played at this level or more valuable or is
more worthy of an award than seventy five, I'll probably
pick seventy five games, all things being equal, of course,
but like let me decide that.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: I'm just playing Devil's Advocate because I agree with everything
you said. I wonder if you is there the risk
of veering too far in the territory of is the
NBA admitting what is true that eighty two games is
too long at that point by getting rid of the threshold,
and then it dilutes the meaning of the regular season.
I don't know how much that actually matters, because I'm
not sure guys aren't.
Speaker 1: We've seen it a couple of times.
Speaker 2: You could get into the haliburt and stuff the other year,
But how many guys are actually pushing themselves past their
limitations that like safely to meet that sixty five game threshold.
It's to be, It's happened, But I don't know that.
Like players even look at this, I almost feel like
by implementing that threshold, you're accomplishing the opposite to where
you're making the awards mean less because you're trying to
make it seem like the regular season means more.
Speaker 3: I think I think, if uh, well, one, it's like
impossible to know, like who's who would or wouldn't have
played if not for the rule with like backspasms or
what like whatever, Like my.
Speaker 1: Captain would have come back already.
Speaker 3: Well, it's just like but but no, I agree with
you and the idea. What really that argument makes a
case for Is it, like, well, his rules of failure
on on yet another level, right If it's if in
fact it's not actually forcing players to cut through stuff,
if they're just saying like, okay, I don't need all NBA,
then I guess then it's then it has failed in
its in its main purpose, which is to get guys
to play more. Just get rid of it.
Speaker 2: Our next award. Can you take us through your Rookie
of the Year ballot?
Speaker 3: Yes? Uh konk Nipple one, uh Cooper Flag two, Cedric
Coward three. Three was the hard part. One and two
were pretty easy for me. Canipple just like arrived with
all of the strengths that everyone saw in him, and
the concerns just haven't really materialized and or have been
outweighed by the strength of shot making. The catch and
shoot just lights out catch and shoot. Guy is really
strong and smart, has great balance control, like understands how
to use his frame to be successful as as an
offensive player outside of just spot shooting. I don't know
what what kind of ceiling we're talking about with him.
It would be silly to like really get into it
because he's so young, but I like, you can't rule
out like all Star, but you know, and maybe more
than that, just just because like I do think based
on some of the passing and just the general feel
that he's shown in addition to making forty percent of
his threes, like I think he's someone that you can
definitely give the ball to more and expect good results
as he develops. He's going to be athletically limited, but
like I don't know, isn't Luca, isn't kid to some extent,
like these guys just these these bulkier guard slash forwards
that know how to use their size and get to
spots and hold those spots. Like that's a real skill
in the modern NBA, and like everyone wants it and
not everyone has the frame to pull it off. So
do I think Canipple is gonna win Rookie of the Year. No,
I think he's been the best rookie so far. Uh
And that's kind of a story in itself because Flag
has I mean just hasn't made a three it seems
like all year, and he's still so good at so
many other things that he's just gonnat.
Speaker 2: He's looked a lot better since they've kind of veered
away from the whole Cooper flag.
Speaker 3: Is weird, hard, how strange.
Speaker 2: There's what have been optimizing him, to be clear, but
he's just more he's closer to optimize now than he was,
and he's just it bleeds through very easily.
Speaker 3: What would Carnipple's Rookie of the Year case look like
if they just if the Hornets had just decided you're
a center. Now you play center. It's just probably not
not that great.
Speaker 1: So you know about Ryan Kalkbrenner, maybe.
Speaker 3: He's on my long list, go ahead, I would say
eighty just as a rookie.
Speaker 1: This is insane to me.
Speaker 2: Eighty second percentile in self created shot making efficiency. He's
hitting forty eight point seven percent grant of his self
created threes my one qualm, and it's not with him.
I want to see more of that. Let's have him
run picking rolls, especially if a Melo is going to
be injured. Maybe that's something they get to more of
post All Star or post whatever, post trade deadline, whatever
it ends up being. But when you're talking about his ceiling,
I feel like part of the reason we might not
know where to pegg it is there's still more things
that I think they could explore with him on the
offensive end.
Speaker 3: Well, and you're talking about more pick and roll stuff.
I mean, I think I imagine him in an offense like
the Heat run and he's such an intuitive cutter and
he sees the floor so well that, like, I think
he would be hugely successful in that kind of system too,
where it's just like the Heat kind of operate on
like if the guy's open in the right place and
the passes on time, he scores, it doesn't matter who
it is. I think can Nipple would be phenomenal as
both like the setup guy, the decision maker, and the
finish or a in a scheme like that. So like,
I agree, like there's a lot of ways conventionally and
maybe unconventionally tactically speaking, for him to be much more
successful going forward.
Speaker 1: What's the case for Coward over Clean for.
Speaker 3: You early season moment, It's no, It's really hard. I
struggled with it. I get I think I think I
like it. It's easier for me to understand like what
Coward is maybe is like because statistically they're fairly comparable.
Queen had the triple double recently and has been just
playing better lately than Coward. Like, if we'd gone another
week or two, maybe my ballot would would be identical
to yours and I'd have Queen there. I think the
size at the position, the potential for shooting, it's cooled
off a ton. He's under thirty two percent from deep
right now, the defensive upside. Just like I look at
Coward and I'm like, oh, I know, I think I
know what that is, and that's very, very valuable, especially
if he becomes even more of like an on ball option.
Queen is like, I mean, I maybe we know what
he is, and maybe it's like the Jokic stuff and
that Shengoon stuff like that's I don't know if that
becomes a player type cool, But it's just like those
guys seem more like anomalies. But Queen's been really good.
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna knock what he's done
so far.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just look at him already being the foundation
for so much of the offense himself having to run.
He's in the seventy six percent tile of true usage,
just as a rookie.
Speaker 1: Big man is kind of bonkers.
Speaker 2: The fit in New Orleans also hasn't been like him
and Zion when Zion was healthy was not.
Speaker 1: They made it work, but it wasn't super intuitive.
Speaker 2: You have defensive concerns, I think, because you don't have
that with Coward, who has taken on Remember we talked
a lot about with jaellen Wells last year the difficulty
of his role on defense. Cowhard has taken on a
lot of that this year too.
Speaker 1: From the wings.
Speaker 2: I just with the recent like not being able to
hit a three basically over the last ten games. It
was and with Queen because Queen kind of had the
slower start that he was working through an injury at
the beginning of the season. But I look at Queen
as someone who can actively run your entire offense, and
I look people have shit on his defense, and I
think a lot of the times rightfully. So he's just
got better hands and more playmaking potential on defense than
I had thought.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm over indexing on that, but I this one.
It was for me.
Speaker 2: It was Coward or Queen, and I didn't really there
were other names you could throw in there. Jeremiah Fears,
Queen's teammate Ryan Calkbrenner, and Charlotte as well. Conkorin Nipple's
teammate VJ. Edgecombe cooled off a ton after a hot start.
I've still been pretty impressed with his defensive activity.
Speaker 1: There are other names that you.
Speaker 2: Could throw out, too, but I thought that there was
For me, there was a pretty hard and fast four.
Speaker 3: I agree. A couple other names to maybe mention here,
James cooled off, Ryan Nemhard that's another one, like if
we've done this, if he keeps us up and there's
another week or two, like Nemhart feels like an All
Rookie team guy potentially if this persists, it's just like
he hasn't been doing this all season. So the samples
a little small there for giving just the award based
on what's happened to this point. Will Richard, Uh, there
it is.
Speaker 1: I was waiting's Bailey?
Speaker 3: Are we are we still thinking about him at all?
Like it it's mostly just kind of theoretical. But you said,
Carl Printer, that was when.
Speaker 2: We can't forget he's not This wouldn't be a wild card,
but you know who could still I think still has
time to get in there. Dylan Harper looks fantastic. Yeah,
there's no games played minimum here.
Speaker 3: So if you're asking me who the five best rookies are,
Harper's on the list, but it's just he hasn't he
hasn't played enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this one seemed pretty straightforward. Is the next
one grant as straightforward? Your most improved player? Well, sir,
which is also my most improved player ballot?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we seem to think it's pretty straightforward. I'll just
run through it. Danny Avdia takes it second, Jalen Duran third,
Ryan Rawlins three very good illustrations of the different types
of improvement that get you mentioned, and most improved Well, perfectly.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, so Avdia, like the bucket you put ada
in is very good player. Who I mean, I don't
know what you do with this aspect of it, but
like kind of showed this was in there late last season,
but you couldn't trust it because it was not a
large sample and the Blazers weren't playing meaningful games. And
kind of good player that Oh god, he's an All
NBA pick right now if we had to, like, he's
he's a on there, a superstar two way now. A
lot of people pointing out the defense has slipped a
little bit that used to be kind of his like
calling card. I'm going to allow it because he averaging
twenty five and five. When you lead the league in
drives and yet you're you're taking on it.
Speaker 2: He needs even draw like assists off drives too. He's
passing fifty percent of the time. About it, Like, this
guy is the everything to Portland's offense.
Speaker 3: Right, and it's a bad offense. But that's because they
don't have guards. Like you wonder if they'd had guards,
what he would look what would he be allowed to
do this?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: And what does it look like if and when they
do have guards? Again, I think I don't take the
ball out of his hands.
Speaker 2: Right, But the other thing too is that they're in
the seventieth percent of offensive efficiency when he's on the floor.
Pretty good, right, That's that's a huge lift for him, Like, yeah,
for sure.
Speaker 3: He's a superstar, Like it has played like a superstar so far.
So like you're talking about like the level of leap,
Like it's kind of like it's really hard to go
from forty five wins to fifty five, and it's even
harder to go fifty five to sixty five as a
team like you can. The only higher leap is if
he were to become a player like him, would be
would join the MVP discussion like in a year, right,
Like that's that's the only higher level leap. What's the DURAN?
What's the duran archetype like for improvement that is different
from obdia?
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, it's well, it's sort of like the
initial leap that Tenny Avvia made. Where's we think this
player might be good, We're not sure of his value,
but then you watch him in Portland for after a
slow start last season, and it's, oh, he's gotten better
incrementally on defense. The offense he shoulders more of a
self creation burden. He's never been more efficient on self
created shots. The Pistons offense when Cad plays without him
is really really bad. So like just the gravity, like
the the utility he provides is a screener with the
vertical gravity, he's not his assist numbers don't pop. But
because he's a threat of making plays in space for
in the short role and just I don't want to
see this all the time. I think they've done a
better job of blending it than they did two years
ago or whatever, Like, yeah, this is a big man.
I can grab a rebound and dribble up the floor
or just attack in space put the ball on the deck.
He's going from like that play like that role player
to fringe All Star candidate type, which feels like the
more is that the more traditional most improved player case
with Denny avvia the conventional one where his is is
his similar to when MAXI won or when Larry marketing
even one, especially because it's a little bit later in
their careers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe I feel like so during I think I
think he gets a little bit of the oh that's
a new skill, like that wasn't there before, kind of
kind of most improved classification because and you mentioned it,
like he now just can take his man off the
dribble from a standstill and and lay the ball up
or get fouled like he's drawing way more foul.
Speaker 1: Like that just percentages up too.
Speaker 3: That's he just couldn't do that right, Like so that
is just I don't know if like he was not
encouraged to do it or my suspicion is like he
just wasn't good at it, and now he's good at it.
That's like the definition of improvement the other thing, and
maybe this it's hard to say whether this matters more,
it matters at least as much is I never really
felt good about him as well. He's the ank he's
the anchor of a very good defense. I don't know
that I'd go that far yet. I think we've talked
about the Pistons have a million good defenders, and and
I think during just frankly as the second best defensive
center on this team, I think Stewart is better. He's
a he's a key part of a very good defense.
Like he's not hurting the Pistons defense. I think he
is a plus defender. And that was just like I
don't think we knew we've I didn't feel confident that
that was ever going to be the case with him,
just because of some of the lapses that he would show.
Some of the rim protection numbers were like not as
good as you'd like them to be. Yeah, So the
new skill is an offensive just like I can score
now on my guy that that's a valuable thing on
an offense that it's kind of kate or nothing a
lot of the time. And then he he is a
major contributor to one of the best defense. Like the
level he's at is not He's not at Avvidya's level.
But I think, you know, I really like the new
the like this is a new thing that he's doing.
Avidia is just doing like everything more and better. You know,
it's not like Avdya. I don't know what Avidiya would
have had to do to add a new skill. Maybe
it's just like the drive frequency or something. Let's talk
about Ryan Rowlins though, because this is a very yet
another very different type of candidacy. Like basically like if
you hadn't there was a shot you were never going
to hear his name again in an NBA scenario eighteen
months ago, maybe even less than that, and now he
is the second best player on the bucks for my money,
So yeah, what have you seen from him?
Speaker 2: It's just I mean, look, everything he's doing, we saw
maybe hints of it last year, and he's just turned
the dials up to eleven on it. There's still a
lot of the three point efficiency that's being carried. As
he's shooting forty six percent on catch and shoot threes. Fine,
like that's okay, Like if he's gonna shoot thirty three
percent on self created threes, then kind of so be
it someone who could put like get the ball inside
the arc and force defenses into rotation. We've seen that
from him. The six sister per game have been huge
for the Bucks this season. And then just someone who
is it's not even that he is not going to
hurt your defense.
Speaker 1: If your defense is going to be.
Speaker 2: Good, he can be a critical part of it because
of the level of assignments he's able to handle in
the back court.
Speaker 1: And he's just super like words, not aggressive.
Speaker 2: It's just like active and steadfast on that where it's
just like he's not going to get thrown off by
screens or he's not gonna lose his guy off the ball.
Speaker 1: He's just hyper aware might be might be the way
to describe it.
Speaker 2: And he's he's also the guy where it's you mentioned
if you thought he was gonna be out of the
league eighteen months ago, whatever, It's okay, he has this
low baseline, but it's we're in year four for him,
and he showed something last year and now it's clearly
that it's been sustainable. And did you ever look at
him as someone who it's, oh, like he can kind
of be you don't want to call him the captain
of an offense, but like, no, he can be the
point guard in your offense, and you can it doesn't
matter which star he's around, because he fits alongside everybody.
Speaker 1: It's a it's one heck of a case.
Speaker 2: And if he keeps this up for the entire season,
and honestly wouldn't shock me if he won the award.
It's just such disparate legs of this entire discussion to
where it's what do you ve because you could throw
like a Jaimihawki's junior would be a good example here
to where it's someone who is so bad last year
he showed promise as a rookie. Do you how much
credence do you give that massive bump right now? I
always struggle with the Ryan Rollins types to where they're
working off this lower base line. They just don't have
a ton of evidence that they were a good player
and then they just sort of skyrocket. But this is
this is insanity. You said he's the second best player
on the Bucks that have Miles Turner. You're not wrong.
So I think he absolutely belongs here right now.
Speaker 1: For sure.
Speaker 3: I think his case feels like the purest to me
because there's it's not like you don't need like a
redemptive story arc or anything like to qualify for Most Improved,
but like it is really like again I can't get
over because he was a Warriors draft pick and so
like I remember the book on him and I remember
seeing him in his early days as like I don't know, man,
like not sure, I'm not sure what this is, like
what's the selling point here? And then like has the
shoplifting thing. I don't know if you remember that with Washington,
I think where that was part of the reason, like
he just washed out there that I don't not remember. Yeah,
And it was always just always what's with this guy?
Like why is an NBA player getting arrested for shoplifting?
That's like, look, I mean you don't get points for
like maybe like making stupid decisions that hurts your career
and then becoming good. But like just on the court,
this wasn't so like coming into this season, he was
kind of like a hipster pick. And I raised my
hand because like, I think he's gonna really be able
to guard and the Bucks need point of attack defenders
for this whole thing to work. I mean, offensively, who knows,
and then he's just the three level scorer that you
can run the offense there. It's just like I don't
know where maybe I was in there all along. Man.
I mean he's and he plays like he belongs like
so the the sort of like something out of nothing
quality of his candidacy is really appealing to me. I
just I guess it depends on the circumstances. But like
you also can't really argue that it's as meaningful as
someone becoming an All NBA player, you know, which is
the odia case. So it's it's very much like apples oranges.
But that's why I like this award because there's there's
no no parameters. It's more fun to talk about.
Speaker 1: Can you guess? I'll just read it to you.
Speaker 2: The top five players and assists on drives this year
Denny at one, Hamy hawk is Junior at two, Russell
Westbrook at three, Dyson Daniels at four, Ryan Rollins at five.
Speaker 1: That's just that's a hell I would not have gotten.
Speaker 2: Maybe I would have gotten Denny afia preseason, maybe, and
honestly probably not.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have predicted that more than the quarterway through.
Speaker 2: I never would have predicted this not very close did
you consider to put on the ballot?
Speaker 3: So Austin Reeves was someone because I think you could
cut and paste a lot of what we've discussed with
Ovdia and just apply it to him, right, Like, I mean,
he just has shown in prolonged stretches this year that
he can be the best player on a really good offense,
and I just I didn't think that was in there
for him. I think you know, his his career trajectory
has been I mean angled steadily upward. Like just look
at points per game, it's going up every year, Like
that's one way to do it. But like the things
that he's asked to do have increased year over year,
and he's just getting better as he's been tasked with
more important stuff and higher usage and surrounded by like
less help in a lot of cases earlier this year.
So he was a hard hard omission, especially if it's like,
are you comparing him to Ryan Rolins, like who actually
has made the I don't know, bigger strides after that.
It's kind of like, I don't know in some order
i'd throw just jump in whenever I would throw Hawkes in.
There a lot of that seems pretty system dependent. But
like you said, like he was pretty easy to leave
for dead after last year the kil Alexander Walker and
Jalen Johnson. I think could be the third year he's
being mentioned in this discussion Reed Shepherd, like, I don't
know like that nobody, Sorry, I will consider him. You
don't have to do.
Speaker 2: You know who has an interesting case and we're actually
I will be forcing us to talk about him in
the next second con Gillespie.
Speaker 3: Yeah, another like just didn't really have a career.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right too, Yeah, two prior this is his third season.
His first one was with the Nuggets. They man, he'd
be what he's doing in Phoenix right now. That was
on the Nuggets kind of and say, but yeah, there's
and there's some of those cases. But like you go,
Josh might not in Boston if you wanted to go
the kind of out of nowhere from left field types.
Speaker 1: Guys, this I'd be curious to know.
Speaker 2: There doesn't feel like a polarized doesn't every year it
seems as if there's this polarizing selection or somebody that
creates division. The MIP ballot so far, at least, does
not seem to be following that same calculus.
Speaker 3: I wonder if Giddy would be that guy if he had,
like I think, because a lot of people would say, like,
I don't know. The bottom line is still the same
for his team. The triple double stuff is cool, but
he's not really different other than like he's continuing to
show he can shoot if he's open. Yeah, I feel like,
what do you what are your thoughts on Keyante George
h third year guy?
Speaker 1: I mean, is he efficient enough?
Speaker 3: No, that's the thing, Like so he to me because
just look at the counting numbers right up seventeen a
game last year up to twenty two, just under seven
assists after five and a half last year, way bigger role.
He's making over forty percent of his shots from the
field overall, which is new thirty nine percent his first
two years.
Speaker 2: He on Tuesday's credit and getting over of the he.
Speaker 3: Seems, yeah, and if you've done this two weeks ago,
you wouldn't We wouldn't be like dismissive, or I wouldn't
be quite a dismissive, But like he seems like someone
that is the wrong kind of most improved candidate in
a lot of ways. Right, Like points per game is
up he's just playing more. Uh, the game's not super different.
A lot of people that have been close to the
Jazz have talked about how like he just kind of
seems like a more mature, like less chucky, kind of
like real NBA player, But like so he's down ballot
for me. But I just that's the kind of candidate
that I'm like, I don't know, is he like he
just is? It's more, isn't better? Necessarily trying to think
who else we should discuss. I mean, Tyre's Maxie can't
win it, but like Tyr's MAXI is way better. I
love the two time MP idea. That that's fun.
Speaker 2: We've never there's never been a two time m I
P right, especially two time MVP, which.
Speaker 3: Is as I said it. I was like, I think
there has been, but I I don't know. I can
I can look it up. As as we move on.
Last name, since we mentioned him already, Zach Edy, if
this is at all real, Zach Edy, and it's a
second year player, so I know you're out.
Speaker 1: You love your year two guys, huhh.
Speaker 3: I mean when you become the best defender in the
NBA overnight, that's that's pretty good.
Speaker 1: Down ballot stuff.
Speaker 2: Anthony Black would be a good yeah in Orlando starting
out right, so I can't win six man. Apparently he
was on my long list of that. Speaking of which, grant,
we are on to sixth Man of the year. I'll
go through mine first. This time, I have Reaepherd at one.
This is just I feel like my entire life has
been building towards this moment.
Speaker 3: Victory, lab sweet victory.
Speaker 1: I've congo Espiat two.
Speaker 2: I assume that he'll go like he won't end up
starting in enough games, but whatever. Then Aj Mitchell at three,
who I was convinced going into this blindly that I
was gonna pick.
Speaker 1: I'm making the Reed Shepherd case.
Speaker 2: The Rockets have a one to twenty three point eight
offensive rating with him on the court, a one to
twenty three point four offensive rating when he plays without Shangoon,
a one twenty four point two offensive rating when he
plays without Durant, and a one hundred and thirty point
six offensive rating when he plays without Kevin Durant and
Alprin Shangoun.
Speaker 1: He's shooting forty one percent on.
Speaker 2: Self created threes, forty six percent on spot up threes.
Speaker 1: He's in the eighty ninth.
Speaker 2: Percentile, mister Grant hughes of self created shot making efficions.
Speaker 1: You could probably hope that the passing would be a
little bit better than it is.
Speaker 2: I would argue that defensive activity is a lot better
than people were expecting. The Reed Shepherd emergence, affirmation, breakout,
whatever you want to call it. We're not waiting for it, folks.
It is actively happening, and it's a game changer for
the Rockets to have the like we might. I wonder
if we're gonna have this discussion at some point be oh,
is he still eligible? Like did they just decide that
he needs to start in every single game? This is
if you wanted to argue why the Rockets don't need
to do anything at the trade deadline. It begins and
ends with what Reed Shepherd is doing. To me, He's
not the most important player, but he is the mother
of all swing factors.
Speaker 3: He is who we thought he was after like some
real rough moment, real moments like months last year and
even early this year. I remember talking about like, hey,
he's getting targeted on defense. If this is gonna be
how it is, he's never gonna make it.
Speaker 2: Hey, do you remember what did we both say though,
because it was their first game was against the thunder
and we can't this looked terrible, but let's pump the
brakes because the Oklahoma City's defense is beyond predatory.
Speaker 3: Right right? Uh? Yeah, he's shooting almost forty five percent
from three and is like a pest on defense, if
not a great defender, like, and it's playing like I
don't know, last year, I felt like he was turning
down shots or just like wasn't letting him rip, you know,
because the rookie thing or just lack of con whatever.
Like he's now, it's just like I want him to.
I still want him to shoot more, just because he's
in that category of like if he can get the
get it off, especially like a catch and shoot, like
I believe that he will make it. Uh So I think, yeah,
he's I'm glad we're here, Dan, I'm maybe not as
glad as you, but I'm glad we're here. I'm glad
that he's in this conversation.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: Cong Gilespie's just been insane this season. One offensive rating,
Uh and they're a plus six per one hundred when
he's playing without Devin Booker on catch and shoot threes,
not creating a ton of them for himself. This is
just someone I can't We said this last year, how
was he just sort of this unknown com and then
floating around still this past offseason, he is all activity
on both ends of the floor. And if you need
just sort of this offensive steward, who's gonna come in
and maybe he's not, you don't want your your offensive
ceiling might be Okay, it's capped here, but we also
know that he's not going to come in and turn
the ball over on eighteen percent of possessions where he's
able to dribble out in and out of traffic. That's
just that's a really good find for a second year
in a row from Phoenix.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean the real mystery here is how was
he at no point on the Knicks because he's a
villanova guy and so like just they forgot it. They
he wasn't cool with him.
Speaker 2: Well, I think we honestly know that Jalen Brunson probably
felt threatened by this level of steel.
Speaker 3: That's right, That's why he got rid of Dante.
Speaker 1: Uh No.
Speaker 3: I think that's a great pick. I am glad that
I only have one of the three players you have
on your.
Speaker 2: Actually shocked at the overlap. I would have guessed that
the overlap we had was aj Mitchell.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean he's he's obviously like among the
tough omissions. But I partly because I don't think it's
gonna last. I put I'm a Hawk as first on
my six man bolt, like you know you could already.
I can feel it happening and like some of the
under it, well, I'll get to it, but like sixteen
and five and just like and part of this again,
I can't get more than no sentence into it without
being like, but I think it's a little bit. The
system is kind of perfect for him. Doesn't matter. This
isn't most improved. We're not, you know, We're just talking
about impact as a as a bench player. His his
game is built ideally for how the heat play, which
is just he'll just run into his defender and spin
or not and just beat him under the basket and
try and make it two point like that's what he's great.
And he can pass out of those situations too, so
and him with a head of steam, which is what
Miami just wants to create on every possession, great like
it works. The Heat's offense is worse when he's on
the floor. Their net ratings better, but that's mostly defensive
and because the offensive rebound the shit out of the
ball when he's out there. Part of that is him.
He just has been you know, only Bam has a
better on off split on Miami. So it's like there's
some you know, not even advanced, but some underlying data
that's favorable for him. He's just he's just been really good.
I don't know if it'll continue, so I'm giving it
to him now.
Speaker 2: Isaiah Stewart, I'm sorry, go ahead, because you mentioned he's
perfect for what the Heat are doing. I've tried to
think because I've been thinking a lot obviously about trades
because of the season.
Speaker 1: That tis the season. I don't know, I don't look at.
Speaker 2: Another team and be like, wow, he'd be an excellent
fit right there.
Speaker 3: Maybe yeah, that's the one, or you could say even
I mean, Phoenix is more about like defensive pace and hassle.
It's as opposed to spacing it out and running on offense.
But like you just have to find the up tempo
team that doesn't play a lot of half court possessions
and when they do play half court possessions. It can't
be conventional screen and role in space around the two
man action. That's just not going to be what he's
what he's useful for. Stuart Isaiah Stewart's second. For me,
I think he is the best interior defender on the Pistons.
Uh he and the fact that he's taking and making
threes again, he's like he's I feel like he does
get a fair amount of credit. I don't know, you
can tell me what you think, but but like, even
though you know he's a reserve and everyone looks at
Duran and Cunningham first, and even then Asar Thompson and
Jade and Ivy and Tobias Harris and Harris Lver, I
think he doesn't get enough of the of the share
of his share of credit for how good Detroit has
been is not high enough because I do think there's
a tone setting element where like the Pistons play like
Isaiah Stewart plays more so then they play like anybody else.
Speaker 1: Sort of like how you play like Josh Hart plays.
It sometimes feels like a lot of.
Speaker 3: The time, right. And then Shepherd three, for all the
reasons you said, he's sort of was an undeniable top
three for me.
Speaker 2: My down ballot list was pretty long for this what
I think I said before we were recorded that it
ended up being the longest.
Speaker 1: I also had Josh Hart.
Speaker 2: I think he'll end up starting too many games because
the Knicks are back to the old starting lineup. Camp
Spencer been great in Memphis. I had had my hawkys
Keldon Johnson quietly good for the Spurs this year. Quentin
Grimes nas reed Anthony Black I would as soon move.
I had Isaiah Stewart two, Jeremy Jeremy Grant starting again
in Portland at the moment, so we'd see, we'll see
if he stays there. And then my out of this
would be the out of left field. And I mentioned
him for mi IP but Josh might not might receive
some love in Boston for the word been coming in
and hitting threes and a part of like just their
big identity for what everything else he does in the
court fills those gaps.
Speaker 1: But yeah, this is the six men in the year.
Speaker 2: Ballot was for me was more interesting to put together
than the most improved player ballot.
Speaker 3: Oh no, I well, it's interesting. There's a fair amount
of overlap too, just just because I had him on
the ballot before he had started too many games on
Yaka kong Wu. I think he was a pretty trendy
preseason pick two, but there was always the question hanging over, like, well,
is porzingis gonna miss so many games at a kong
Wu just is the starter all the time, and so
far that's that's been a factor.
Speaker 1: Is will Richard going to start in too many games?
Speaker 3: I mean, why isn't Pat Spencer on our six man?
And most well, he's a starter now Pat's you got
the wrong Spencer. I think it most improved. Pat Spencer's
running away with it. I forgot to mention him for.
Speaker 1: That coach of the year. Who did you have on
your ballotser?
Speaker 3: I had Eric Spulser first. I just think, you know one,
give him the Lifetime Achievement Coach of the Year if
you want. He's long overdue for that hasn't won it obviously.
I just I think the thing I've enjoyed most about
this season is just the whole idea of there's a
different way to play offense, the heater down to I
think it just like twelve in offensive efficiency. Now it's
so like the whole don't screen anymore and drive and
time your cuts and rotate the other guy. I don't
know how effective that'll be for the rest of the.
Speaker 2: Years, peppering in more ball screens, Yeah, especially in crunch time.
Speaker 3: All I know is I love it. I love it.
It's like he had the like, if anything, Eric Spolstra
is a coward because he has so much clout, he
he could have gotten the green light to be like,
you know, we're gonna try this year five seven and
under only that we can't have any players over five.
Like what happens? I don't know, like everyone has to
Like there's just like try something even weirder. You have
to play only left only left handed layups. That that's
all that's allowed. Just he could have made up like
a million different things and everyone would have allowed it
because it's Eric s Bolstra and like he's kind of
unimpeachable as a coach. So yeah, he's just like when
you revamp an offense in a way that like got
a coach fired the year before, like it, and it
basically with that when you go get the guy that
got the head coach, like and you you I and
I think too. I don't know if this works for
every team, but I think for the Heat it makes
a lot of sense because of the personnel that they have,
So to have that vision, I think is we just
have to credit that because like if anyone could have
just retained the status quo jokes aside, it just could have.
It would could have would have should have been Spolstra
because like, we're the Heat, we defend, we're gonna play
slow offensively, we're gonna grind you into dust. And he
just like completely greenlit the changing the way they play.
So there's that, uh dagnall, if you're on pace to
win more games than any team's ever won, you're gonna
get a Coach of the Year nod. And then JB. Bickerstaff,
I think I thought the Pistons would maybe stay the
same or take a step back. The way he's got
them defending, the way he's figured out how to make
an offense with a lot of imper pieces like work
well enough. I think deserves some credit. So those are
those were a pretty There's one guy you have him
that that other than those three, there's the ballot was
pretty Those three made the ballot pretty easy. There's a
fourth guy that I'm glad you have because that was
the tough emission.
Speaker 2: The and the other thing I'll just add for dagnolt
too is I don't know that his job is as
easy as everyone just assumes, because you're juggling a lot
of really good players who probably want to play more,
and so when you're managing the minutes and yeah, injuries
sometimes take care of it, but when you have to
manage expectations of veterans younger guys, he does a really
good job of that. And the thunder or just yeah,
so much critical to the ployees, but they're like always on.
It just doesn't feel like they don't take anything they're
they act like idiots, like during the postgame interviews in
a good way. I mean there's a compliment, but you
never feel like they're not taking the competition seriously or
that they're showing up unprepared. I think he deserves a
ton of credit fat And also you mentioned it with
the win, but they are right now. The distance between
net rating between them and second place is basically as
Detroit Pistons's net rating, So they are Detroit Piston's better team,
better than the second and best team in the league,
which is the Houston Rockets. By net rating, but I
have Joe Mizula and there might be Celtic chances who
are mad that, like they're even in this discussion. You're
just contending all of a sudden for top two, top
one spot in the Eastern Conference. Your offense that does
not have Jason Tatum that traded away Christaps porzingis traded
away Drew Holliday. You could argue maybe that helped the offense,
but Boston is fifth in offensive efficiency and they just
they don't get to the foul line. They don't have
guys that are doing that. The performance they've gotten out
of Jalen Brown this year has been great. He'll probably
receive some down ballot MVP consederation when all said and done,
and he's piecemealed together. A lot of the rotation. Derek
White has not been the best version of Derek White
for most of this season. Been playing a little bit
better recently. Sam Houser kind of having a whatever year
you're getting by with a lot of prich Simon's hasn't
been great this year and is playing a ton of bents,
name me as Kaita Josh might not. We've mentioned in
a couple times Jordan Walls, Luca Gars are coming and
giving you minutes. Hugo Gonzales is kind of like low key,
just a monster to like, just one of those guys
you don't want to play against. He's Joe Mazul is
a cycle path, and if you want results, might be
the best kind of cycle path.
Speaker 1: Because the Celtics are The Celtics are.
Speaker 2: Good and are gonna be asking some weird questions as
they get to the trade deadline when they're looking at
the tax bill. Their draft pick status is Jason Tatum
gonna come back? I have to imagine, in so far
as a team can adopt a coach's identity, the Celtics
have done it, perhaps this season more so than any other.
Speaker 3: Does that mean that the whole Celtics roster cannot define
the word fun or or give an example of something
they do for fun?
Speaker 2: Right, and they're all gonna give outrageous quotes about just
I was born into darkness or whatever he said?
Speaker 3: Do they explain everything using war metaphors?
Speaker 2: Is that they watching the town three times a day?
Speaker 3: Hey, here's I think that I'm glad you had Missouri.
Speaker 1: You've ever seen the town? I haven't seen the town.
Speaker 3: You haven't seen the town.
Speaker 1: Come on, man, I think Joe Mazulla has seen it enough.
Speaker 3: For all, it is a good movie. You should watch it. Uh.
I think he deserves like some extra credit in addition
to everything you said for like, it's it's obviously really
hard to evaluate NBA coaches. We always say, like we
see a fraction of what they actually do and try
to judge their whole like level of quality on whatether
they do. How do they manage their timeouts? You know,
And it's like that's that's like the ten thousandth most
important thing or what coaches.
Speaker 2: I hear throwing around is where you know their their
game plan is just a little bit weird or wonky,
and then no one needs to elaborate on what that
game plan.
Speaker 3: Or it's like, oh, we criticize rotations all the time.
Why isn't he playing this lineup? Doesn't he know the
net rating? As if like the coaching staff is unaware
of the concept of like lineup data, Like come on,
but what I think? So he he gets credit for
Boston being shockingly successful relative to expectations, obviously, but doing
it in a way that is like they are making
he they're making tactical choices like that, so like they're
extreme three point that only the Warriors shoot a higher
share of their shots from three. The Celtics never get
to the foul line. Ever, they're dead lasting free throw
rate by like a billion they foul a ton that,
like they don't get to the rim. They they are
really like they're deeply flawed in a lot of ways
that you would use to evaluate a team conventionally, but
they're like leaning into those and you wouldn't. You can
imagine it would be easier to for for like a
one size fits all, like we're gonna shoot this many threes,
We're going to focus on getting to the rim. We're
going to try to draw. Like I think he gets
credit for Boston having these wild ass like outlier stats
like by design, you know, like they're they're doing the
absolute most they can with the personnel they have, which
is another like credit to the coach. Sou winning in
a weird way almost like counts double for your Coach
of the Year status, like just because Bustin can't be
this good if they play like everybody else does. I
think I think Missoula has has isolated, Like here's the
weird stuff, the extreme stuff we gotta do, and they're
doing it and it works anyway.
Speaker 2: So the tougher I did have Spoilstraw in my down ballot,
but a tougher cut for me from all this, the
two where Jordan not just Phoenix, plays in a different way,
and maybe a lot of it was just refreshing the
vibes there. But they're competing even when Devin Booker is
just not I mean, they got slammed by the thunder
like before.
Speaker 3: We again not a good evaluative tool.
Speaker 2: The other name, and I feel like he'll probably lose
traction as.
Speaker 1: The team gets healthier.
Speaker 2: The Spurs are ten and four without Victor Webbin Yama
in seventh in offense, and they haven't had Darren Fox
miss time, Dylan Harper miss time, Steph Castle missed some time.
And also you're getting Harrison Barnes is just awesome now
and Kelden Johnson is awesome, and so you have to
credit him with just the way they've even used Luke Hornett.
You have to credit him with the way that he's
just managed the roster and what the offense has turned into.
And I think a big he probably deserves the most
credit for you and I discussed some of the concerns.
We ultimately defaulted to we think it'll be fine. But
the dynamic with the guards who like to get downhill
the spurs are like they're not not heat, but in
the half court it's like driving kick Like these guys
are constantly getting downhill or passing out.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: Kudos to Mitchell Robinson, Mitch rob Mitchell Robinson, my god,
I'm sorry. Uh kudos to Mitch Johnson. Did I call
him Mitch Robinson at the top of the segment too, I.
Speaker 3: Don't think so. I think you got it right there.
Speaker 2: But kudos to him for what they've been able to
do in San Antonio. Wall Victor Woman misses more than
half the season.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Mitch, Mitch Johnson is a ship compared
to to Mitchell Robinson. So that's the main thing. No,
I think I I didn't even think about him, and
I really should have. Uh. I think the other I
think Darko Ryakovic. I think Arayokovic ever got it. We
were just dropping the ball and coach Ryakovic, I don't know.
The raptors are.
Speaker 1: Generally he was stronger two weeks ago.
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, that's the thing. But overall, I think
they've they've outpaced my expectations. And again you can attribute
like some of what has gone well to like their tactically,
like trying to play a certain ways, Like anytime, it's
like a coaching style seems to be influential on the
team's success. I think that that counts a little extra.
I don't know, it's just that that team was we
knew that team was gonna be good. Well, we're talking
way down ballot. It's just like, yeah, he's he's not
gonna win it. I don't think unless the the rockets
like somehow catch the thunder.
Speaker 2: I was waiting to see if you're gonna say his name.
But if we're talking about stylistic shifts, Mike Brown deserves
to mention here.
Speaker 3: Oh well, three times potential, three time Coach of the Year,
Mike Brown.
Speaker 1: No way he wins it.
Speaker 2: As we're recording this, New York is their second an offense,
but they have a borderline top ten defense, and that's
with Mitchell Robinson being one of the most unreliable players
in the NBA. It's honestly, their center rotation is filled
with either bad players or big man rotation. Bad players
right now Gershon Robucelli or just wildly inconsistent players in
Mitch Robinson and you just never Mitch Robinson, Mitchell Johnson
and Karl Anthony Towns. Are you ready to go on
to Executive of the Year? Everyone's face yes, right, who
do you have?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 3: So we have anci Salle first me and that trade alone,
they got Atlanta the number one? In my mind? Have
I have we talked about this? In my mind, it's
already the number one overall pick that the Hawks have, like,
and I think that's because I want my just criticism
and everybody probably feels this way. It's some extent I
want my criticism of the Pelicans to be ultimately validated,
like which is say validated in like the ultimate way,
which is you didn't just give up a pick that
had a ants to be in the top four. You
gave up the number what turned into the number one
overall pick. That's that's so in my mind, that pick
that Atlanta has is number one overall. It's already given.
Speaker 2: Well, do you know what's funny is that people are
trying to backslide on the takes from that because of
how good Derek Queen is and I don't understand why
that's a whole the process from it. Yeah, that's I mean,
it's not even a whole podcast. It's just he could
end up being an MVP, and the machinations by which
they acquired him were objectively stupid.
Speaker 3: I think, totally agree, obviously totally agree. The counter to
me is just like you could have had Derek Queen
and this pick it just put top whatever protections on it.
You think you think Atlanta's walking away if it's top
five protected whatever.
Speaker 2: Eight other teams walked away from the exact offer, which
I you know, and.
Speaker 3: If and if Atlanta does you know what, there's several
other teams you could have. It's just, yeah, the process,
the what are we really talking about this?
Speaker 1: Like, I'm not going.
Speaker 3: To argue with someone that thinks that Derek Queen being
a pretty good rookie like changes any of the other
he to separated.
Speaker 2: The method by which they got him was terrible, and
he's he also his value should not be tied to
that trade, like he could be a good player and
that trade still just be awful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my number two, we both agreed there. I guess
we could we should talk about Niki. Alexander Walker has
been one of the best like players to change teams
over the summer. That matters. Porzingis has been predictably unavailable,
but good enough. It's it's that trade, really honestly, Like
I had a hard time picking out Like it's much
easier to point to executives that had bad off seasons
or that those results have been really bad than good
ones so far. I don't know how you felt about that.
Speaker 2: I honestly I didn't feel strongly one way or the
other because of what the off season has turned where
free agency just doesn't matter anymore, and I think that
makes it harder. But I had Sam Presty number two
just because the J will and AJ Mitchell contracts they're
just their highway robbery and the AJ Mitchell contract looks
like actually criminal at this point.
Speaker 1: The contracts for J.
Speaker 2: Dubb like kind of you allowed that they were the escalator.
Language wasn't quite Oh, you make all NBA third team,
you automatically get the thirty percent max. But like you
had all these qualifiers in there and you had a
know behind.
Speaker 1: The scenes, like these aren't gonna hit.
Speaker 2: It's just gonna be the straight twenty five percent max
no escalators for the chet Holmgren contract. I so it's
but that might speak to it doesn't feel like anyone
had this great body of work over the offseason. I
also had Brian Gregory of the Suns. It came down
to him. I thought about pat Riley, I thought about
Raphael Stone, but the Kevin Durant trade to me was
just sort of no, you do that, and it's worthing
perfectly five for that. You could also question, all right, well,
Clint Cappella, Dore and Phiney.
Speaker 1: Smith, now what were we like what was going on here?
But belongs to the discussion.
Speaker 2: But Brian Gregory just the vibes have been cleared in Phoenix,
and he deserves, I guess some credit for like being
the steward.
Speaker 1: Of all that. I am with you.
Speaker 2: I actually didn't feel strongly one way or the other
where I look at executives a bunch of them and say, oh,
their off season was terrible versus oh it was really good.
It just felt like there was a bunch of Vedella
off seasons into the fold. And so these are the
these are the front offices that stood out.
Speaker 1: The most to me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I's a good one though, I mean I've
really kind of wrestled with it. But like there were
hard decisions to make in Boston, and like there was
it wasn't just like the specifics of who goes, but
like how far do we go with this, like you know,
money saving enterprise and maybe maybe ownership just said here's
how new ownership said, here's how far you are allowed
to go. But but like there's a scenario where the
teardown is much more thorough than it was. There's a
scenario where Jalen Brown's not on this team anymore because
like it would have been I, had I been in charge,
I would have looked at it and said, like, well,
he can't be a number one on a decent team.
That's just not that's that's not gonna end. He is
and and maybe better than that. So like there's the
difficulty of like just tearing up a contender, even if
the month, if the financial situation dictated that like this
is probably what you got to do. That I think
that under sells how tricky it was to make the
specific moves that Boston made and to I don't know,
stop where they stopped. And because it's just so easy
to go all the way or to just do nothing.
I don't know. I think that was a harder job
than it maybe seemed like. So he's there, and then
I got pat Riley. It could have been Andy Ellisberg.
I don't really truly know who's I imagine the buck
stops at Riley, but one I credited Spolser for this,
but green lighting an offensive overhaul like that's that had
to have been at least been controversial. I think that
has turned out to be a good decision. And the
Norman Powell trade, like for what the Heat gave up
to get Norm Powell, I just it's I don't know
what else you call it. He's he's I thought, there's
no way he repeated what he did last he would
repeat what he did with the a person like he's
as good or better. So I yeah, and you give
up what did you give up? Kevin Love and Kyle
Anderson and.
Speaker 1: No one was nothing that was going to be an
active part of your team.
Speaker 3: Right, So it just that that's that's one of the
biggest lopsided trades of the season of the summer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to think of if anybody else brings
to mind, there's obviously I don't know.
Speaker 1: What do you have New Orleans got, Derek Queen? Do
you think.
Speaker 3: I really know? I? I mean it, I don't. I
struggle with I get maybe like, can we outside the
box it and go like Zach Cleman for just not
even starting negotiations with Jahn Morant uh and making the
Bane trade? I don't know. Probably not. I I really
don't have another great option.
Speaker 1: No, I don't. I don't either. I think we hit
on all the big ones.
Speaker 2: Do you have any other thoughts on awards?
Speaker 3: Not? I mean no, not really. I think we we
we hit it. I'm glad we had our most improved
criteria discussion. Uh, I don't know what? How about this?
What award? Let's before we close it? What like number
one guy in any category do you feel is most
likely to not be there the next time we do this? Ooh,
for me, it's easy. It's probably whenby because he's gonna miss.
It'll be actually officially small below the threshold I could have.
Speaker 2: I could probably say Rudy Gobert for that too. But
I do feel like there's gonna be some shifting dynamics
when it comes to sixth man of the year, maybe
just because, but maybe I might be assigning my own
thoughts to that because I thought that field was so deep, and.
Speaker 3: I think most improved could change too, because there's I
had so many guys like we could come back here
in Austin. Reeves could be number one, like I think
that's that's on the table, or like someone further down
ballot could like Recheppard could be number one on my
ballot at least.
Speaker 2: Ah, Well, I think folks, since we're done with awards,
it means it's stat padding time, mini segment from Grant
and I think we each have something for each other
if I remember correctly, did you want to start us off?
Speaker 3: All right, I'm gonna try my very best to articulate
this in a way that is one easy to edit
and two easy for you to understand. So, Dan, the
Miami Heat have killed the pick and roll. It's official.
They took it out back and they shot it. We'll
never see the pick and roll again. It's gone. So
in memoriam, I have compiled a list of the NBA
players in the last ten seasons who have logged at
least nine hundred possessions when credited as the pick and
roll ball handler generally speaking, that has led the league.
So what we're talking about is over the last ten years,
who has come close to or led the league with
at least nine hundred possessions as a pick and roll
ball handler. There are one, two, three, four, five, six players.
I'm gonna give you three strikes. I believe you'll get
one or two.
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, So there are six players who have run
in a single season in ninney of the last ten years,
any of the last ten years, in a single season
have run nine hundred pick. So I'm trying to pick
a single season, and there's six occurrences of it.
Speaker 3: I just want you to pick a player. Just give
me a name and because and if you give me
that name, it's because you think that player in the
last ten years has run nine hundred pick and rolls
as the ball handler. At some point, you don't have
to pick the season.
Speaker 1: It's not cubatively.
Speaker 3: Nope. I'll tell you that someone's done it five times,
someone's done it twice, and the other four have done
it once.
Speaker 1: Okay. My first guest would be Chris.
Speaker 3: Paul incorrect, strike one.
Speaker 1: Oh this is awful, then all right, one of that's
so much. James Harden, he is on the list.
Speaker 3: He did it one time. That was twenty sixteen seventeen.
He ran nine hundred and forty four pick and roll I.
Speaker 2: Guess he's always been iso so hours. I would have
shocked that he didn't do it more.
Speaker 1: I don't uh luka.
Speaker 3: Dacic Nope, hasn't strike two.
Speaker 1: Oh man, this is gonna be over so quickly.
Speaker 3: How's it feel?
Speaker 1: Doesn't feel great? No run? And over the last how
many years?
Speaker 3: Ten seasons? So we go all the the furthest back
we go is uh sixteen seventeen.
Speaker 2: Pick and roll heavy player over the last ten seasons?
How many of these names am I gonna hate myself for?
Speaker 3: Uh? There's the one, the guy that has done it
five times and has led the league in pick and
roll ball handler possessions. Like more than that in the
last decade. You'll be upset that you didn't.
Speaker 1: Get Russell Westbrook.
Speaker 3: Russell Westbrook is on the list. He is not the
five timer. He also, like Harden, in sixteen seventeen, crested hundred.
He had nine hundred and sixty seven pick and roll
ball handler possessions.
Speaker 1: What about he's got.
Speaker 3: Lebron no, not Lebron strike three. I want to get
so the guy, the first guy that should have come
to mind, Well, I don't know how I would have
done on this, Probably not any better than you. He
defines his team's offense. Uh, he's a great passer out
of the pick and roll, but he will shoot the
pull up three and that's why it's dangerous.
Speaker 2: It's a great passer out of the pick. Steph Curry, No,
he didn't do it one. That's been the warrior.
Speaker 3: Smith's criticism over the years been more pick and rolls.
Please I can, so I can. Let me tell you
a couple of the other one timers, D'Angelo Russell, which has.
Speaker 1: Never would have gotten him in a trillion.
Speaker 3: Uh, you got Russ, you got hardened. Damian Lillard did
it once. He had over nine hundred KEMBA. Walker did
it twice. So you gotta go like that gives you
the sense of like when we're talking about because that's
in like the he did it eighteen nineteen and sixteen seventeen. Oh.
Jalen Brunson did lead the league once. That was twenty
three twenty four, but it was only eight hundred and nine,
so he didn't meet the cutoff. The guy that you
should have known is Trey Young. I had five seasons
of at least nine hundred pick and roll possessions. In
twenty one twenty two he has the largest share on record,
one thousand and sixty six possessions credited as a pick
and roll ball a handler. That's the most of any
season of any player in the last ten seasons.
Speaker 2: I'm gonnough. I didn't get Trip. I never would have
gotten d Lo. I don't even think I would have
gotten Kemba Walker.
Speaker 3: I no chance for me on Delo or Kemba. Yeah,
no way. I would have said Chris Paul. I would
have said Chris Paul first.
Speaker 2: By the way, Also, that was the one I thought
he when you I almost knew I was giving myself
a strike.
Speaker 1: I felt this is too obvious.
Speaker 3: Well, the thing is, like the best Clippers years were
like fourteen to fifteen, and that's outside the range we're
talking about, which is just basically we're just old.
Speaker 1: It was nice to get some of my own medicine
for a change.
Speaker 2: Now you're gonna get dealt some of your typical amounts
of medicine grant.
Speaker 1: And you will get three I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe three is too many. We might only get one strike,
but you need to guess. Let's guess, how do I
want to frame this. Guess which player leads each NBA
franchise in all time fifty point games. Oh, so, I'm
gonna give you three strikes per team. We'll get to
work through this, but I'm gonna bounce around the league.
I've chosen the teams mostly at random, and we're not
gonna do every team. Okay, first team up your they're
not yours, but shout out to our video editor Andrew
Boston Celtics.
Speaker 3: So most fifty point games in Boston Celtics history, correct,
I'm gonna go recently, I'm gonna go Jason Tatum.
Speaker 2: That is correct, one for one, who has the most
all time fifty point games in Lakers history?
Speaker 3: Oh h well, I mean there's an obvious answer, but
I just scoring was not what it used to be,
or scoring didn't used to be what it is. I'm
gonna I'm not gonna say Kareem and I'm gonna regret it,
and I'm gonna say Kobe two for two.
Speaker 2: Kobe has twenty six fifty point games in a Lakers uniform.
This is regular season and playoffs combined. Jason Tatum led
to Celtics with seven. Boston clearly doesn't have scores, and
it's our history, historical arsenal. Next franchise, the Chicago Bulls.
Who leads them all time in fifty point games?
Speaker 3: This feels cuea this that's bait or this feels like
a trap. I mean, uh, I have to say, Michael Jordan.
Speaker 2: That is in it's correct, Michael thirty eight. Nobody else
has more than two.
Speaker 3: There's nothing scarier than one. That just it has to
be this guy.
Speaker 2: Who leads the Knicks in all time fifty point games.
I do think these are gonna get The first few
I thought were.
Speaker 1: Close to Gimme's. I think these are gonna get harder.
Speaker 3: For that, I struggled with all three of the first ones. Okay,
the Knicks. Do we go recent again or do we
go super recent? I'm trying to read your face here
which way I should get?
Speaker 1: What would be recent?
Speaker 3: Well, Jalen Brunson would be super recent. This not not
my official pick. Carmelo Anthony would be recent, but not
as recent as Brunson. Or do you go further back?
It was just harder to get fifty long time ago.
I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say mellow.
Speaker 1: That is incorrect. Strike one?
Speaker 3: Do I get to know who it is?
Speaker 1: You get three total strikes for this entire.
Speaker 3: Oh oh, so this could just be over if I
don't get it for the Knicks. Jalen Brunson, that is incorrect.
Speaker 1: Strike two.
Speaker 3: Oh so we're gonna have to go back? How far
back do we go? Oh? Man, I'd like to phone.
I'd like to phone a friend. Can you can you
tell me? Do I get a hint or hints? Allowed?
Can you give me a decade.
Speaker 2: I will give I can give you a decade, or
I can give you a clue. Would you prefer the
decade or the or I can give you a like
a word I can give you both. Think eighties and
also think royalty. Oh, Bernard King, that is correct. He
leads the Knicks with five all time fifty point game.
So you are two strikes deep of your three. Sir,
who leads the San Antonio Spurs in all time fifty
point games?
Speaker 3: Hmmm? Man, well, I know, I know David Robinson has
at least one because he scored seventy on the last
day of the season one year. Did anybody else ever
get fifty? Tim Duncan just seems like he would out
of respect stop at forty.
Speaker 1: Nine, out of respect for what.
Speaker 3: Respect for the game, Just like no one should score
this many points. I could. I can imagine him. It's
like this is too showy.
Speaker 1: Uh. I don't know.
Speaker 3: Kawhi probably got close, Tony Parker might have gotten close.
George Gervin probably are recounting. Aba. I'll just say David
Robinson because I know he at least had one.
Speaker 1: That is incorrect.
Speaker 2: Well, imp, I'm in a rule that you get a
strike back if you make it past So now.
Speaker 3: Okay, I love strikes, so now and it's not David Robinson. Uh,
I'll just go George Gervin, that is correct.
Speaker 2: Okay, you were he had five, So now you are back.
We reached that to one strike. If you could one
shot kill these, you might be down to zero strikes.
Speaker 1: Look at that.
Speaker 3: Most importantly, I was right that Tim Duncan wasn't interested
in fifty points.
Speaker 2: Who leads the Golden State Warriors all time in fifty
point games?
Speaker 3: Well, Dan, uh, is this franchise like we can talk
about the Philadelphia Warriors, and then I have to say, will.
Speaker 2: That one hundred and nine to fifty point games, which
is steps in second place with sixteen absolute Willy ketcham
Well off the Wayne's say, okay, so you're down to
zero strikes. Who leads the Denver Nuggets franchise in all
time fifty point games?
Speaker 3: Hmmm? They had some real pace and space stuff going
on in the eighties. I don't know if I could
name the pissed the Nuggets leading scorer from that time.
I mean I will. I will use the benefit of
having my strikes back and say, Jokich.
Speaker 1: That is partially correc You have one of two names.
Speaker 3: Who are oh we've got a tie. I'll throw Carmelo
out there, strike one, okay, yeah, I'm really in trouble here.
Oh Jamal Murray, that is correct.
Speaker 2: Back down to zero strikes they both, you'll get Ja
Murray each have five apiece?
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Who leads the Houston Rockets all time in fifty point games?
Speaker 3: I gotta go James Harden.
Speaker 2: He does and it's I mean, quite frankly, it's just
not even close. He is at twenty three. Nobody else
in Rockets history even has more than two, so it's
a good job by you. Who leads the Miami Heat
all time in fifty point games.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna start with Dwayne Wade, that is correct.
Speaker 2: This is getting progressively uninteresting, right he has three. Lebron
is in second place with two. They've only had five
players in franchise history who have scored fifty points.
Speaker 3: I honestly, Jimmy Butler must have had one.
Speaker 1: Jimmy Butler, Lebron, Wade, Zoe, and Glenn Rice.
Speaker 3: Ohoh, okay.
Speaker 2: Who leads Grant the Portland Trailblazers franchise all time in
fifty point games? I think that's gotta be Dame with seventeen.
Nobody else has had more than two.
Speaker 3: Dame had seventeen to fifty point games.
Speaker 1: Yeah, playoffs, regular season. Wow, this one's interesting.
Speaker 2: Who leads the Minnesota Timberwolves all time in fifty point games?
Speaker 3: Hmmm? Is it Cat?
Speaker 2: It is karl anthy Towns with three. I'm actually disappointed
that you got that one. You're just on a freaking roll.
Let's even keep going. Who leads the Milwaukee Bucks all
time in fifty point games?
Speaker 3: Ooh, well, Kareem's back in the picture. Got some I'm
gonna I'm gonna say Yannis.
Speaker 1: Still partially correct.
Speaker 3: He is one of the uh is it Michael Red time,
Let's say Michael Red for Funzies strike one? Okay, Kareem,
that is correct.
Speaker 2: Both him and Giannis had ten to fifty point games apiece.
Who leads the Raptors franchise all time in fifty point games?
Speaker 3: Oh, that's interesting, Vince Carter?
Speaker 1: He does with a whopping two? Okay?
Speaker 2: Who leads the Utah Jazz franchise all time in fifty
point games?
Speaker 1: I mean Karl Malone incorrect strike one? Man?
Speaker 3: Uh, Donovan Mitchell.
Speaker 1: Incorrect strike two? Oh?
Speaker 3: Oh oh okay danger, Oh oh, this is a this
is a franchise thing. He wasn't that good of a
professional score?
Speaker 1: Who are you thinking of?
Speaker 3: I was thinking pistol puh, pistol p. But that's like
he just I think he maybe averaged some absurd number
in college and just wasn't consistently healthy enough to do
that as a pro. Uh, okay, fifty point there's like
two guys I'm thinking of. Now I'm gonna go Darren Williams.
Speaker 2: In correct strike three, and that is where our game ends.
Adrian Dantley. Oh yeah, il Karim alone, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: I wasn't gonna get there. He's one of those guys
that's like just in my brain. But I'm never gonna
pick Adrian Dantley for anything.
Speaker 2: We'll never be able to cut that up. But that
was a fun exercise because I think you got more
than half. So let's see, you got through Boston is one,
Chicago is two, Denver three, Golden State four, Houston five, Lakers,
six Heat, seven Bucks, eight, Timberwolves, nine Nicks ten. You
got Portland that's eleven. You got the Spurs twelve, Raptors
their whole. You almost got through half the league.
Speaker 3: Well do the other do the other half? I did?
I mean asterisk because I needed you to get me.
Bernard King, I don't. I don't know if I would
have gone. I don't know if I would have got
him otherwise.
Speaker 1: I still say that was fairly impression.
Speaker 2: I don't think I wouldn't have gotten Adrian Dantley for Utah.
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna no that was that was a tough one.
Speaker 1: Uh you have anything held to you?
Speaker 2: That was a good, nice little brisk walk through staffing.
I would I think we'll be live later this week
without Grant on Saturday, so come check us out. We're
gonna do our trade questions for every West team. The
Eastern Conference episodes already up. Go check that out, and
Grant and I are excited to do marking the official
start of trade season on Monday, December fifteenth.
Speaker 1: We're doing something. What are we calling it? The Trade
Value Draft?
Speaker 3: Trade value Draft? Uh? And all it's gonna be. I
hope that we have just a complete cluster.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're already stressing about it. And this is where
we're not Thursday.
Speaker 3: Not me. I'm just gonna wing it. I'm gonna just
draft with my heart.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: It should be interesting. I'll leave it at that. You
got anything else I.
Speaker 1: You do not?
Speaker 3: Thank you?
Speaker 1: Everyone? Do all that I have to I quote you. Now,
do all the things.
Speaker 3: Do all the things. Do the do the rating, reviewing,
and subscribing. Those are three important things to do. Uh.
Join our discord links for that in the YouTube podcast description.
We'll do a mail bag at some point pretty soon,
so that's a good place to submit, uh if you'd
like us to answer a question or just discuss a topic.
Because we don't speak enough. I'm sure you all think that.
Tell your friends, Tell your enemies, make sure you comment,
leave you know, on YouTube, give us thumbs up there,
like subscribe to all that stuff. Give us hype high points,
all the hype points. I want so many high points.
I just don't wan to do with them. What are
you gonna do with your hype points? Dan?
Speaker 1: Get all of them.
Speaker 2: And when we're when we're ranking above mister beast on
the high point charge because that's when.
Speaker 3: I'll figure out what I'm gonna do with I'm going
to redeem them for travel miles. I'm pretty sure that's
that's like where you want to go so that I
don't know, the hypest place, the hypest place on earth. Yeah,
tell your friends, tell your enemies, shouts Franklin mckayin an
apologies Ja