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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 5: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 6: Good Evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 6: program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime
Speaker 6: History and the authors that have written about them. In
Speaker 6: Ladock Ocsober two thousand and nine, Cleveland police detectives arrived
Speaker 6: at the home of Anthony Sowell, an ex marine and
Speaker 6: registered sex offender, to arrest him on weak old rate charges.
Speaker 6: But this was no ordinary house, nor would it be
Speaker 6: a routine arrest, for even though Solol was not at home,
Speaker 6: officers knew immediately something was horribly wrong. After initially finding
Speaker 6: two rotting corpses inside the home, their investigation would lead
Speaker 6: them to discover the bodies of eleven women. This is
Speaker 6: the shocking account of Solo's legacy of depravity and cold
Speaker 6: blooded murder. His mannered and well spoken veneer masked a
Speaker 6: monster who felt no mercy for those he butchered, his
Speaker 6: twisted existence spent among the decaying bodies of his victims,
Speaker 6: and how he picked his victims from the fringes of society,
Speaker 6: lost souls with criminal records or drug habits that would
Speaker 6: make them less likely to arouse alarm if they simply disappeared,
Speaker 6: but that didn't mean they wouldn't be avenged. Nobody's Women,
Speaker 6: the book we're profiling this evening is Nobody's Women, The
Speaker 6: Crimes and Victims of Anthony Soul, the Cleveland serial Killer,
Speaker 6: with my special guest, journalist and author Steve Miller. Welcome
Speaker 6: back to the program, and thank you for agreeing to
Speaker 6: this interview. Steve Miller.
Speaker 3: Hi, good evening.
Speaker 6: Had a little gap there where I couldn't find my
Speaker 6: place and reading the script. Sorry about Matt, Yes.
Speaker 3: All right, that's the silence is good. It's all right.
Speaker 6: Anyway, I wanted to say, we're those who listening to
Speaker 6: the in the audience this evening where you're in for
Speaker 6: a real thrill ride, because this is an amazing story
Speaker 6: and an amazing book. And so let's get to this
Speaker 6: question I often ask I might have asked you this
Speaker 6: before when you're on the program, what without giving too
Speaker 6: much of the story away. What brought you to this story?
Speaker 6: Why were you compelled to write about this story, this
Speaker 6: serial killer in this time and place in history. What
Speaker 6: brought you to this story in this book?
Speaker 3: Well, you know when I when when this all went down,
Speaker 3: I was working on my second book, uh, which was
Speaker 3: A Girl Wanted the Chase for Sarah Pender and uh,
Speaker 3: and so my mind wasn't on what was going on
Speaker 3: in the news, and yet this story kept popping up.
Speaker 3: It was you know, these these bodies were being hauled
Speaker 3: out of a house and one of the worst neighborhoods
Speaker 3: in Cleveland, and uh, I'd be in a Midwesterner, you know,
Speaker 3: I pay attention to that kind of stuff, and and
Speaker 3: uh it looked to me at first, you know, I thought, well,
Speaker 3: this is just another grim you know, a grim mass murder.
Speaker 3: And but but I'd find myself reading about it and
Speaker 3: I think, well, who are these women? You know who who?
Speaker 3: What were was he praying on it's and it's Uh
Speaker 3: it started to attract me in that way. I said, well,
Speaker 3: who are these people? Who are who's getting killed? And
Speaker 3: uh So I started reading more and more about the victims,
Speaker 3: and then there were you know, the allegations that the
Speaker 3: police didn't act on these these people had come up
Speaker 3: missing in these this bad neighborhoo and uh and I
Speaker 3: and I realized that this this was a kind of
Speaker 3: a compelling story about you know, it had a little
Speaker 3: bit of you know, some police work in it, some
Speaker 3: uh you know, obviously the horrific murders, and and at
Speaker 3: the the heart of it was a very depraved human being,
Speaker 3: Anthony Soul. And you know, so it started to look
Speaker 3: at me, look to me like a challenge. You know,
Speaker 3: I hadn't I dealt with really like kind of like
Speaker 3: mysteries and and so on and so forth before. In
Speaker 3: this case, there was really no mystery. It was. It
Speaker 3: was kind of like right in a like about a
Speaker 3: football game. It happened right in front of you. And
Speaker 3: uh and so I thought I'd take that challenge and
Speaker 3: hopefully it succeeded in in Nobody's women.
Speaker 6: Right now, let's talk about Cleveland. You alluded to it
Speaker 6: that that's one of the worst neighborhoods. So take us
Speaker 6: back to first of all, let's let's do Anthony Soul.
Speaker 6: Let's go back and take us back into his childhood.
Speaker 6: You did an admirable job of of uncovered ring all
Speaker 6: available information about who this guy was and how he
Speaker 6: grew up to. He was born in nineteen fifty nine
Speaker 6: August nineteenth as parents Thomas Senior and Claudia Garrison. Thomas
Speaker 6: Soul tell us about his life growing up. Tell us
Speaker 6: what it was really like for Anthony sol and what
Speaker 6: hype person was he growing up? Right from the very beginning.
Speaker 3: His father was a criminal. I mean, he had committed
Speaker 3: numerous crimes in his life. He had done some time.
Speaker 3: He was a rough character, and he essentially had had
Speaker 3: Anthony and didn't really he'd never served as a father
Speaker 3: to him, and so Anthony was swung into kind of
Speaker 3: an extended family. He would be lived with cousins and
Speaker 3: so on and so forth, and his mother and it
Speaker 3: was a rough, rough upbringing for this guy. For Soul,
Speaker 3: he had a you know, like a lot of people
Speaker 3: that we have born into a poverty and h and
Speaker 3: so on. He he lived a rough life. There was
Speaker 3: a lot of sexual abuse, there was violence. It was
Speaker 3: it was a very rough, a terrible upbringing for him,
Speaker 3: and he in fact, in the book, we talked quite
Speaker 3: a bit about how that worked and against him and
Speaker 3: he was. He was abused, and he did some abusing
Speaker 3: as well. It almost at some points when I was
Speaker 3: writing about it, I thought, man, this is just like
Speaker 3: a growing up in a house of horrors. It's almost unimaginable.
Speaker 3: And yet, you know, Soul managed to go to school.
Speaker 3: He you know, he he grew up. You know, he's
Speaker 3: kind of an outsider as a kid, but uh there
Speaker 3: was nothing apparent to his to his teachers or anything
Speaker 3: when he's you know, as he grew up. He had
Speaker 3: a high school girlfriend whom I whom I spoke with
Speaker 3: at length in the book. And uh so, you know,
Speaker 3: he he grew up in this very dysfunctional environment, and
Speaker 3: yet he managed to you know, it seemed like he
Speaker 3: was going to going to get out of it. I
Speaker 3: mean he joined the Marine. Uh he duringed the Marines
Speaker 3: before he graduated high school, and he really wanted to enlist.
Speaker 3: And uh so that's where we that's where we got
Speaker 3: to a pre crime and he got out of the Marines.
Speaker 3: And uh he served very very admirably sharpshooter as a
Speaker 3: matter of fact, and uh and so you know that's
Speaker 3: that's where we got to up to. His criminal activity
Speaker 3: is known criminal activity.
Speaker 6: What let's talk a little bit about the military. You
Speaker 6: say he was a sharpshooter, So he was. He was
Speaker 6: a very good shot, an expert shot. Now what else
Speaker 6: was what was he characterized? What was what were the
Speaker 6: reports like of his behavior? Was there any abarrent behavior
Speaker 6: when he was in the military, and well did he
Speaker 6: he he was released with an honorable discharge. But tell
Speaker 6: us about what those reports said, if anything during his
Speaker 6: military state.
Speaker 3: But he was he was a very good soldier. I mean,
Speaker 3: the the the bottom line, he was a you know,
Speaker 3: I guess you know, his his sister, his sister, his
Speaker 3: half sister, Tressa. At one point I talked about how
Speaker 3: he he went through a change, but really he he
Speaker 3: you know, it seemed like the uh, you know, the
Speaker 3: the I guess, I guess what he he went through
Speaker 3: was a bit of growing up. You know. He he came,
Speaker 3: he came in, he went into the Marines, and uh,
Speaker 3: and he wanted to you know, he just he wanted to.
Speaker 3: He got married. Uh. He he had every sign of
Speaker 3: of being you know, good. He he had a got
Speaker 3: a good conduct medal, meritory, meritorious mass certificate, a Sea
Speaker 3: Service deployment, riven certificate of commendation and two letters of
Speaker 3: appreciation as a military lawyer who later analyzed Soul's military records,
Speaker 3: that he did exceptionally well. So he was he came
Speaker 3: out of there really good. He served his last tour
Speaker 3: of duty of camp Camp Pendleton, and uh, then he
Speaker 3: came home Cleve.
Speaker 6: Now what what what? What would a neighborhood what would
Speaker 6: a neighbor say or people that grew up with him,
Speaker 6: or friends or family? How would he be characterized in
Speaker 6: terms of his character? Was he impulsive? Was he was
Speaker 6: he angry? Was he had a temper? Was he arrogant?
Speaker 3: What was he? What was he like?
Speaker 6: In those regards?
Speaker 3: People said, you know, he was he was kind of
Speaker 3: a you know, I want to say he was kind
Speaker 3: of a weirdo. He didn't, uh, he didn't. He didn't
Speaker 3: participate in a lot of sports. He did box a
Speaker 3: little bit in the uh you know, he did a
Speaker 3: little bit of boxing. But he wasn't He wasn't one
Speaker 3: of the kids that you know that there was the
Speaker 3: popular kids. So you know, people knew him, they thought,
Speaker 3: you know, they tease him. Maybe he didn't he didn't
Speaker 3: get you know, didn't get all the girls and that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. But I don't know, it wasn't it
Speaker 3: wasn't anything that you know, there was nothing at that
Speaker 3: point where it would stand out where he was a
Speaker 3: you know, where he was going to be a bad actor.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, so you know he was he
Speaker 3: was all right at that point.
Speaker 6: Okay, Now he got out to the military in nineteen
Speaker 6: eighty five, is it?
Speaker 3: And yeah?
Speaker 6: Yeah, and what was he started to work almost immediately?
Speaker 6: Was he looking for works? Tell us what happened shortly
Speaker 6: after getting out of the Marines.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, he got back to he got back
Speaker 3: to Cleveland, you know, you go home, and and he
Speaker 3: you know, he was he ran it. He'd always liked
Speaker 3: to have a drink, and he always liked to smoke weed.
Speaker 3: But by this time, crack had hit the inner city
Speaker 3: city neighborhoods, and and these these neighborhoods were getting gradually
Speaker 3: worse and worse and worse. And and so he he
Speaker 3: came back and everybody he knew now was smoking crack.
Speaker 3: And even the place that he grew up was was
Speaker 3: filled with drug dealers, and and so he just started,
Speaker 3: you know, he was he's like a divorced twenty five
Speaker 3: year old guy, and you know, he had at that
Speaker 3: point he had a seven year old daughter. He had
Speaker 3: had out of Woodlock while he was in the Marines
Speaker 3: with his high school girlfriend, and he began drinking quite
Speaker 3: a bit and it seemed like he was lost. He
Speaker 3: you know, he had had an identity identity in the
Speaker 3: Marines and now you know, it seemed like he was
Speaker 3: starting to get a bit of a head case. He had,
Speaker 3: you know, every day he was drinking. He moved into
Speaker 3: the attic of the house that they spent a lot
Speaker 3: of time and that he kind of grew up in
Speaker 3: finally at some point and just right down the street
Speaker 3: from his from his old high school. And uh, you
Speaker 3: know it was it wasn't great. It wasn't great. The
Speaker 3: neighborhood was really really really really really bad. He got
Speaker 3: arrested shortly after getting out on a domestic violence charge,
Speaker 3: served eight days and in jail. You know, things were
Speaker 3: going going bad for him.
Speaker 6: Now, what was he like before he entered the military,
Speaker 6: like say, when he was a young man, As far
Speaker 6: as your research was in your book and after the
Speaker 6: military as well, in terms of his sexual pro proclivity, it.
Speaker 3: Was interesting, Yeah, what what what what what was going
Speaker 3: on was before he went in as a youth, there
Speaker 3: was sexual abuse in the house and and according to
Speaker 3: witnesses that is some half half sisters and so on. Uh.
Speaker 3: He he was an abuser, a sexual abuser of some
Speaker 3: of the girls, some of the siblings and the half
Speaker 3: siblings and cousins in the house. So at that point
Speaker 3: he had you know, you put it, you put it,
Speaker 3: you look at it, and you go, Okay, this guy
Speaker 3: had already you know, he had looked it seemed like
Speaker 3: he was gonna you know, he he he had some problems,
Speaker 3: some emotional problems, and obviously you know, he was he
Speaker 3: was abusive. It seemed that he kept it there. He
Speaker 3: didn't you know, he didn't, he wouldn't act out outside
Speaker 3: of that house. But but yeah, so he had some
Speaker 3: some some I guess, some aberrant sexual proclivities before he
Speaker 3: went in. But again, none of this had ever really
Speaker 3: come to the fore. He was never you know, it
Speaker 3: would never nobody ever noticed it. And I'm guessing he
Speaker 3: was in an environment where it didn't matter. Nobody's going
Speaker 3: to notice that kind of thing. Yeah, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: and he he he he had Like I said that
Speaker 3: we had an eighty eight domestic violence charge. His sister
Speaker 3: talked about you know how you know, he punched a
Speaker 3: girl in the neighborhood. I guess after after he got
Speaker 3: out and she had said how he was he was
Speaker 3: getting he was getting in trouble now, you know, he's
Speaker 3: he got popped for possession of cocaine and he's you know,
Speaker 3: public intox disorderly. He was, he was getting, he was
Speaker 3: getting in trouble. It was it was heading towards a bad,
Speaker 3: bad way.
Speaker 6: Now after he was done on this downward slide, smoking
Speaker 6: crack and and really his life falling apart. Once an
Speaker 6: upstanding guy that could, you know, hold down an apartment
Speaker 6: in the job, and he wasn't doing that anymore. So well,
Speaker 6: now what was his sexual proclivity characterized by? Who did
Speaker 6: he interact with? Did he have a girlfriend and did
Speaker 6: he just cheat on his girlfriend?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 6: What did he do?
Speaker 3: Who did he who did he know? Man, he didn't
Speaker 3: have any you know, he got out of there and
Speaker 3: he didn't really have a girlfriend. He was he was
Speaker 3: living a street life and and it was going pretty
Speaker 3: pretty badly for him, and it kind of hit a wall.
Speaker 3: Nineteen eighty nine, he in nineteen eighty nine, he assaulted
Speaker 3: a woman. He had taken her off the street. Now
Speaker 3: it depends on which you believed. But you know, so
Speaker 3: this is a this is a woman, and it's in
Speaker 3: the book. We you know, we had going to kind
Speaker 3: of in depth. I interviewed this woman. This is his
Speaker 3: first victim. This is really the first time she'd been interviewed.
Speaker 3: I tracked her down in inner city Cleveland. It wasn't
Speaker 3: it was. It was tough, and but she told me
Speaker 3: her story and and then I read the reports. But
Speaker 3: what had happened was this woman was was out one morning,
Speaker 3: early one morning, after a long night on the town,
Speaker 3: ran into soul on the street. And this was to
Speaker 3: be repeated numerous times then over the next in the future.
Speaker 3: And he talked her into coming back to his place.
Speaker 3: He had he was living in the upstairs apartment, in
Speaker 3: the attic apartment at a house that his that his
Speaker 3: family was still living in. You know, a lot of nieces, nephews, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 3: And and he took her back there, and he got
Speaker 3: her in there and he snapped and began to violently
Speaker 3: attack her. He raped her, repeatedly, tied her up and
Speaker 3: and it was and and he brutalized her, and she
Speaker 3: was lucky enough to escape with her life.
Speaker 6: Tell us more about this, because this is telling, because
Speaker 6: it is I mean, you know, it is really telling
Speaker 6: for for his sort of m O and his signature
Speaker 6: and everything else I would gather. Tell us more about
Speaker 6: how she actually escaped from this eating.
Speaker 3: You know, it is interesting because as I looked through
Speaker 3: the book when it was done, I read through and
Speaker 3: I said, why I didn't I unconsciously foreshadowed by by
Speaker 3: kind of led with this, with this assault, and uh so,
Speaker 3: what would you know? What had happened was you know,
Speaker 3: he uh, you know, they got up there and as
Speaker 3: soon as he got you know, he got the girl,
Speaker 3: the victim into his room, and she was She told me,
Speaker 3: she said that he's he was nice, he was not
Speaker 3: a creep, you know, and they were talking about stuff
Speaker 3: and she said, she claims she wasn't going up there
Speaker 3: just to have sex with this guy, but it was Soul.
Speaker 3: But as soon as as soon as she got in there,
Speaker 3: Soul slammed the door. And she said, she said, right
Speaker 3: in the books, she said, I looked at him and
Speaker 3: he changed his face, his look, and she said, she
Speaker 3: said to herself, she you're you're in trouble. And he
Speaker 3: locked the door, dragged a heavy suitcase in front of
Speaker 3: the door so she couldn't get out, and he pulled
Speaker 3: out a knife, and he held her captive for twelve hours.
Speaker 3: And again this would be this would repeat be repeated
Speaker 3: down the line. Some years later, he and then he
Speaker 3: tied her up, tied her up, and he took a nap,
Speaker 3: and then he he woke up and he tried to
Speaker 3: choke her out a little bit, and he told her
Speaker 3: he was going to kill her. And he said, but
Speaker 3: he's too he's going to go to sleep first. He's
Speaker 3: too tired to kill her at that point. And he
Speaker 3: lay down next to her on the bed and was
Speaker 3: asleep in seconds. And there's there was an attic and
Speaker 3: they had a tilted window. But she saw it and
Speaker 3: this victim, and she said she could she could do it.
Speaker 3: She could get out of this. And she said to herself,
Speaker 3: she said, rather die jumping, you know, she wanted she'd
Speaker 3: rather die trying to get out of here, because she
Speaker 3: was sure he was going to kill her. He was enraged,
Speaker 3: and she did. She managed to get out maneuver through
Speaker 3: this little tiny window onto the roof and called to
Speaker 3: some women in front of the house and they and
Speaker 3: they called the police.
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Speaker 3: The shoes tied up and she showed him in her hands.
Speaker 3: He had bound them with a with a necktie. And
Speaker 3: she didn't want to scream because you know, she didn't
Speaker 3: want to wake him up. But within minutes everybody that
Speaker 3: the cops showed up.
Speaker 6: Now, how did the police react to this? And what
Speaker 6: was the subsequent charges, if any, What what happened as
Speaker 6: a result of this? What was it? What was the
Speaker 6: interview like with Anthony soul as well? What would what
Speaker 6: did he he was, Yeah, he was arrested.
Speaker 3: He was arrested, and and of course you know he
Speaker 3: you know he what happened was later on, you know,
Speaker 3: the case didn't go right away. The victim disappeared, and
Speaker 3: then so once that once the the victim disappeared, and
Speaker 3: and so the case there wasn't a case made. However,
Speaker 3: not a little bit in the future. A few months
Speaker 3: in the future, another assault occurred, and this time again
Speaker 3: he This time again he was he was detained, and
Speaker 3: now they found the warrant for the East Cleveland rape,
Speaker 3: and now he was Now he was prosecuted, and you know,
Speaker 3: and that was it. In nineteen ninety he got five
Speaker 3: to fifteen years for that for that previous.
Speaker 6: Rape, and he was listed as a which is important
Speaker 6: to this story, very very important to the story. Wise,
Speaker 6: we'll talk about this a little bit. He's registered as
Speaker 6: a sex offender, which is supposed to mean that he
Speaker 6: would have his DNA SAMP taken at that time and
Speaker 6: put into the Federal Data Bank. Is that it ut
Speaker 6: that's right.
Speaker 3: Right, that's right, that's right, and it went in prison.
Speaker 3: Of course, you'd go into you'd have to get sex
Speaker 3: offender counseling. And one of the prisons he was in
Speaker 3: over the fifteen years that he spent he was offered
Speaker 3: sex advanced sex offender treatment, but he never ever underwent
Speaker 3: any treatment because he told a state sex offender counselor
Speaker 3: that he denied, you know, he didn't do any he
Speaker 3: didn't never committed the offense, so he you know, essentially
Speaker 3: that's how that that prison was run is oh, you
Speaker 3: didn't do it, Okay, fine, I know you're convicted of it.
Speaker 3: But if you didn't do it, then you know, they
Speaker 3: let him slide with that.
Speaker 6: I see, they wouldn't they wouldn't treat him for something
Speaker 6: if he said.
Speaker 3: Right right right now, no again, you know, to be
Speaker 3: treated for a problem, I guess they'd want him to
Speaker 3: admit that he had the problem. But at the same time, Uh,
Speaker 3: he also he said he didn't he wudn't want to
Speaker 3: take these because he would make him a target. Sexual offenders,
Speaker 3: of course, are scorned among inmates. And uh and so
Speaker 3: you know, he didn't want to be marked as a
Speaker 3: sex offender. That's a that's a that's a rough, rough
Speaker 3: rap in in prison. So he didn't he just didn't
Speaker 3: take the classes. And uh, you know, he took other things.
Speaker 3: He took things like you know, you know, anger management
Speaker 3: and and uh and so on and so forth. But
Speaker 3: uh and and you know, alcohol treatment and so on.
Speaker 3: But really what he did in prison was he worked
Speaker 3: a lot. Uh, you know, he worked in the kitchens
Speaker 3: and he worked. He did the electronic wiring for snow
Speaker 3: removal trucks for the prison system, and did some engine repair. Again,
Speaker 3: he he thrived in prison because again it was it
Speaker 3: was an institutional living. He could, you know, he could
Speaker 3: get by, he could get past everything because you know,
Speaker 3: he was this is what he liked. He liked being
Speaker 3: told what to do and how to have an order
Speaker 3: in his life.
Speaker 6: And plus he was a sober app and he sould
Speaker 6: when he was in prison and when he was in
Speaker 6: the military.
Speaker 3: So where in the registry, that's right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: So and this this will also this also played a role.
Speaker 3: He was you know, he didn't he didn't mess around
Speaker 3: with contraband, he didn't he didn't do anything. He had
Speaker 3: a pretty good, pretty good record. I think he had
Speaker 3: a couple of tickets in prison.
Speaker 6: That was about It was his family supportive while he
Speaker 6: or any members of his family supportive while he was
Speaker 6: in prison.
Speaker 3: They went to visit him periodically.
Speaker 6: Okay, so he wasn't a banished from the family or anything. No, Now,
Speaker 6: how many years of that fifteen years does he ultimately do?
Speaker 3: He served all fifteen In fact, as they tried to
Speaker 3: you know, and they they cut you know, you would
Speaker 3: always be up for parole, but he was denied every time.
Speaker 3: It was a really really tough you know when you
Speaker 3: read the reports, and in the book we talk quite
Speaker 3: a bit about the you know, these these reports. I
Speaker 3: like to rely heavily on records when I'm when I'm writing,
Speaker 3: and and you can see in there, you know exactly.
Speaker 3: And in fact, these will be up on some of
Speaker 3: these reports will be up on my website coming up here.
Speaker 3: Book comes on October second, so we'll we'll have these
Speaker 3: up for people to read. But nobody was it was
Speaker 3: that the savagery of the crime just didn't disallowed his
Speaker 3: his early release. It would have been crazy. Right, So the.
Speaker 6: Fifteen years also means though when he finishes that, that
Speaker 6: he's not on any mandatory role or probation.
Speaker 3: So that's right. He is a registered sex offender.
Speaker 6: Though right now, how does that work? He's supposed to register,
Speaker 6: and how does that all work out? In Anthony Soul's case.
Speaker 3: It worked out. I mean he got out, and he
Speaker 3: he got out any registered I mean like he was
Speaker 3: supposed to do. He got I believe it was June,
Speaker 3: and and he he got out, and he went down
Speaker 3: to exactly where he's supposed to be, down at the
Speaker 3: Court Psychiatric Clinic in downtown Cleveland and at the Justice Center,
Speaker 3: and and he showed up. You know, everything was you know,
Speaker 3: this is what he was supposed to do. He had
Speaker 3: pled guilty to two counts of attempted rape and served
Speaker 3: as prisons prison sentence. He got a job as soon
Speaker 3: as he got out, and he worked over at the
Speaker 3: Cleveland Indians A ballpark for a while and he later
Speaker 3: told me it was the best job he ever had
Speaker 3: for what that's for what that's worth. But September of
Speaker 3: five he went down. He got out in juneo five,
Speaker 3: about September oh five, he went down and and and
Speaker 3: underwent his uh, you know, his sexual predator evaluation.
Speaker 6: And what was the results of that.
Speaker 3: He was determined to be a fairly low risk to
Speaker 3: to reoffend.
Speaker 6: And again this is determined by him denying that he
Speaker 6: is a sex offender and someone believing that. Is that
Speaker 6: the way that worked?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean when you read the report, it's fairly
Speaker 3: you know, you read everything that he said. He denied
Speaker 3: a whole lot of things, and you know, he talked
Speaker 3: about his sexual history and so on. He said his
Speaker 3: first sexual contact was with his then girlfriend at age seventeen,
Speaker 3: and he said he'd never been involved in violent sex.
Speaker 3: These kinds of things he said, and so you know,
Speaker 3: and he said, in fact, he told him he never
Speaker 3: used cocaine or anything. He said he used marijuana. And
Speaker 3: so he gave him his story, I mean, the story
Speaker 3: maybe what they what they wanted to you know, what
Speaker 3: they wanted to hear. It talked about they talked about
Speaker 3: he was you know at the end of it that
Speaker 3: he just had a low you know. They they said
Speaker 3: he was a I guess they said he was a
Speaker 3: He was a well functioning, he was decently functioning man.
Speaker 3: And they what they have, they there's a test and
Speaker 3: then I hate to get into these you know, bog
Speaker 3: down in these things, but he said, he uh, he
Speaker 3: he said, he says six percent that of reoffending in
Speaker 3: five years, seven and ten, ten years, and seven percent
Speaker 3: in fifteen years. So really he had they gave him
Speaker 3: a fairly low probability.
Speaker 6: Okay, so he's out in two thousand and five, you say,
Speaker 6: and yeah, he's out working, and and where's he now working?
Speaker 6: After the Cleveland Indians gig, he went.
Speaker 3: To work for a couple of different places. He u
Speaker 3: he had, you know, a couple jobs. Then he finally
Speaker 3: went to work though at a at a rubber works place.
Speaker 3: It was a it was it was a it was
Speaker 3: a manufacturing job, and he really liked that. He really
Speaker 3: dug it. He again, he he liked he liked working.
Speaker 3: You know, that was the that was the main thing.
Speaker 3: But uh so that's you know, that's where he was,
Speaker 3: you know, so he he actually went he he'd lived
Speaker 3: first with his half sister. He then moved into this
Speaker 3: this this old house one two two o five Imperial,
Speaker 3: which becomes a huge point, huge part of the story.
Speaker 3: In fact, in the book, you'll see it'll it'll refer
Speaker 3: keeps going one two two five. Everything comes back to
Speaker 3: one two two five. It was a it was a
Speaker 3: family that was in the house for forever and at
Speaker 3: that time, his h his his father had kind of
Speaker 3: quit drinking and become kind of the local handyman. He
Speaker 3: was kind of a you know, he's kind of like
Speaker 3: an old he's kind of the old the old hood
Speaker 3: who kind of reformed and he's too old to be
Speaker 3: carrying on anymore. He had remarried very a woman that
Speaker 3: kind of calmed him down and everything. And uh but
Speaker 3: but the thing was, while Anthony was in prison, he
Speaker 3: had died. So now his stepmother was living there and
Speaker 3: that's the Anthony moved in with her. He lived at
Speaker 3: one two two oh five Imperial now and he was
Speaker 3: working a job and that was it. It was a
Speaker 3: tough neighborhood, really tough neighborhood.
Speaker 6: And there's important too that there's maybe you can describe
Speaker 6: the neighborhood in terms of the adjacent stores and businesses
Speaker 6: that become part of the story later. That's kind of
Speaker 6: a grim, I don't know, iron irony. Basically, what's across
Speaker 6: the street raised sausage, They tell us the.
Speaker 3: Next next right next door to one two two of
Speaker 3: five Imperial as a sausage factory, been there forever and
Speaker 3: and so and then I'll just beyond that. Across the
Speaker 3: street on the same side of the street, on the
Speaker 3: corner was a beer store, a convenience store, and you know,
Speaker 3: there was some there was some other things. There was
Speaker 3: a little little eatery across the street. And you know,
Speaker 3: the thing that strikes you when you go to that
Speaker 3: neighborhood is it's just it's one of those urban neighborhoods
Speaker 3: that just fell apart. Man. I mean, you know, over
Speaker 3: the years it used to be a beautiful neighborhood. It
Speaker 3: just again just fell apart. A lot of drug dealing
Speaker 3: a lot of drug you know, just just the whole,
Speaker 3: the whole gamut of street life.
Speaker 6: Now this building on this home on Imperial Drive, he
Speaker 6: he lives. It's is it three stories?
Speaker 3: Where?
Speaker 6: Where? And where does the Anthony?
Speaker 3: That's right, it's a three story, three story, a beautiful home.
Speaker 3: It's a three story building. And his mother lived downstairs.
Speaker 3: And eventually, first Anthony lived in a back bedroom on
Speaker 3: the first floor. Then he moved up to the third floor,
Speaker 3: so he lived had his own little apartment. He actually
Speaker 3: re kind of you know, kind of kind of fit
Speaker 3: it for himself. He put in some new plumbing and
Speaker 3: so on and so forth. So so he you know,
Speaker 3: he he kind of just moved in. He's working at
Speaker 3: the place called Custom Rubber. He could walk to work
Speaker 3: or he took the bus, and you know, he'd you know,
Speaker 3: he he turned into a fix it guy. He was
Speaker 3: fixing things around the neighborhood. He uh, you know, he
Speaker 3: met some girls, you know, he he you know, he'd
Speaker 3: see him out on the on the stump, but you know,
Speaker 3: drinking a forty and they combine and so on and
Speaker 3: so forth.
Speaker 6: So again, he wasn't a creepy guy. He was a
Speaker 6: guy known in the neighborhood. As you know, a decent guy,
Speaker 6: hardworking guy, normal guy. Isn't that the impression that people
Speaker 6: had about Anthony Soul?
Speaker 3: Basically people did, people did have that. You know, he
Speaker 3: you know, he fronted well, he could talk. You know,
Speaker 3: he could talk a little bit. You know, he loved sports,
Speaker 3: so you know, you could you could have a conversation
Speaker 3: with this guy. He loved to cook, you know, and
Speaker 3: if if if he ran into a former military person,
Speaker 3: he could talk about the military. So this guy was
Speaker 3: you know, this guy was was front and well. But
Speaker 3: that's also what the problem is when somebody does you know,
Speaker 3: it's the it's the scary people that confront well and
Speaker 3: present well that that turned crazy on you. That that's
Speaker 3: the that's the monster.
Speaker 6: Now, he was a sort of a bigger guy five
Speaker 6: foot eleven, uh, you know, sort of muscular guy doacky guy. Yeah,
Speaker 6: but this many years of doing crack or at least
Speaker 6: what point does he sort of get down to sort
Speaker 6: of a leaner, sort of a gaunt more of a
Speaker 6: gaunt figure because of the crack people.
Speaker 3: After a couple of years, after a couple of years there,
Speaker 3: he had met he had met a woman, a woman
Speaker 3: named Laurie, and uh, she was she was into in
Speaker 3: the crack and and he, you know, he picked up
Speaker 3: the habit pretty heavy from through her. You know. It's it,
Speaker 3: it's you know, he had already dabbled, and now he began, uh,
Speaker 3: you know, he began you know, people started coming by
Speaker 3: the place, Shady characters started coming over, you know, that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. And you know, hard drugs are pretty
Speaker 3: pretty selfish endeavor, so he was secretive and uh and
Speaker 3: uh and that was that he was, you know, he
Speaker 3: was getting high, you know, and his girlfriend started to
Speaker 3: realize it.
Speaker 6: How was it? How was his behavior? Was there any
Speaker 6: erratic behavior once he was high on on crack or
Speaker 6: came coming down off crack? Did Laurie have any incidents
Speaker 6: with police or assaults or or violence with Anthony Soul?
Speaker 3: Laurie. Laurie was a it was a big user. But
Speaker 3: and and yeah, I mean people started coming over, and
Speaker 3: when they started, uh, you know, she was Laurie was
Speaker 3: getting in trouble. She was always kind of getting in trouble.
Speaker 3: She had a pretty extensive, pretty extensive rap sheet and
Speaker 3: and so you know they were getting high together some
Speaker 3: of the time, and and and uh, and Anthony was
Speaker 3: hanging out with some other people in the neighborhood and uh,
Speaker 3: and so you know, it was it was pretty bad.
Speaker 3: He was, you know, he was getting pretty high pretty often,
Speaker 3: pretty frequently, and you know, and and Laurie was, you know,
Speaker 3: not exactly aiding in a betting, but she wasn't really
Speaker 3: you know, a big, a big help. It's not like
Speaker 3: she's going to help him out and try to keep
Speaker 3: pull him out of this. She got popped for crack
Speaker 3: shortly after, not long after they met, and it got
Speaker 3: to you know, he tried to help her, but he,
Speaker 3: you know, he wasn't much of a help. And and
Speaker 3: things are going south for him pretty quick because the
Speaker 3: relationship was starting to fall apart. This is a very
Speaker 3: important relationship to Anthony soul.
Speaker 6: Why is it an important relationship to Anthony soul?
Speaker 3: What? What?
Speaker 6: What is it about the relationship and what it represents
Speaker 6: to him? Why? Why is this so important?
Speaker 3: I think something finally touched Anthony's soul that he felt
Speaker 3: something for someone. And uh, and you know, there's a
Speaker 3: you could read between the lines. You read about things
Speaker 3: he said, things he people he talked to and so on.
Speaker 3: And this guy was kind of a He had such
Speaker 3: a it was it's such a stew of personalities, and
Speaker 3: I think it appeared that he had really, really truly
Speaker 3: in his had his own version of love for for
Speaker 3: for Laurie. But it was also was a very possessive love,
Speaker 3: of course, and because it seems to be fairly common
Speaker 3: people like him, and it's obsessive and and so uh.
Speaker 3: As she started to fade away out of his life,
Speaker 3: you know, he began feel lost and that angered him.
Speaker 3: He was getting high. More and more. They would fight,
Speaker 3: you know, they would have physical scraps and so on,
Speaker 3: and he'd throw her out and then beg her to
Speaker 3: come back, et cetera, et cetera. But you know, nothing
Speaker 3: good is going to come of it. They're both using.
Speaker 6: So what does come to pass with Laurie and and
Speaker 6: with Anthony was what what does she come to her
Speaker 6: senses some at some point does she get beat up?
Speaker 3: What? What made what she leaves? She leaves? There was?
Speaker 3: You know, she was she left and and in February
Speaker 3: of two thousand and seven, she was gone. They were
Speaker 3: still talking, you know, they were they were on again,
Speaker 3: off again, they were, you know, but they were they
Speaker 3: were still talking and Anthony had a heart attack. He
Speaker 3: was shoveling snow and it would seem that the drugs
Speaker 3: he had taken that weakened his heart and he, uh,
Speaker 3: he had he had a heart attack, and you know,
Speaker 3: he was operated on. He nearly died. He was into
Speaker 3: the in in the critical Ward Cleveland clinic. But he
Speaker 3: was he was kind of covered, you know, he had
Speaker 3: he you know, he tried to come back to work
Speaker 3: and he couldn't work. And now Laurie is gone, and uh,
Speaker 3: you know, he he had to leave, you know, so
Speaker 3: there he was. He he he had no job, his
Speaker 3: girlfriend had left him, and.
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Speaker 3: He was, he was a mess.
Speaker 6: What reason did Laurie give to finally finally break up
Speaker 6: with Anthony? Which she needs to get him?
Speaker 3: She was trying to she was trying to get her
Speaker 3: get her life back together, and and she couldn't with him.
Speaker 3: You know, he was getting unemployment, you know, she she
Speaker 3: you know, it was really it was things were really,
Speaker 3: really terrible for him.
Speaker 6: Did she see a violent side?
Speaker 3: She did. They had physical scraps and so you know,
Speaker 3: she was you know, she knew, you know, she knew.
Speaker 3: You know, everybody noticed how how much that they they
Speaker 3: how much the two fought, and and so on.
Speaker 6: So you know, she was she was a scrapper herself though,
Speaker 6: to be fair, right.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, that's right. Of course. You know this
Speaker 3: is a really this is a rough, rough place. But
Speaker 3: what's going on here is uh, something's going on in
Speaker 3: his head. Things are you know, you got to remember
Speaker 3: this is a neighborhood. Whe people knew each other, everybody
Speaker 3: knew each other. They all got high together there, you know.
Speaker 3: And uh, and so he was a guy again, he
Speaker 3: was still a guy that was around around. You know.
Speaker 3: Now he didn't have to work, so he was really around.
Speaker 3: He was a scrapper, that is, he would pick up
Speaker 3: scrap metal and take it in. That's how he got
Speaker 3: some money, would get unemployment. Uh, and so on and
Speaker 3: so forth. So and he's still and he still had
Speaker 3: a crack habit, and still he was still smoking heart
Speaker 3: attack or not. And uh, then's things you know. So
Speaker 3: now now with Laurie pretty much out of the picture,
Speaker 3: the girlfriend, he's kind of on his own and he's
Speaker 3: hanging out with the locals, uh, smoking crack, you know.
Speaker 6: Now, now the the women that some of the prostitutes
Speaker 6: did he and I you know, I hate even using
Speaker 6: that word because it's just these are drug addle that's right.
Speaker 3: But that's you're right, you're right, these are these are
Speaker 3: people who aren't in their right minds. But they have
Speaker 3: them busted. Some of them had prostitution charges, let's put
Speaker 3: it that way.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's some there's obviously that's the main thing. If
Speaker 6: you look at all these people that they've had run
Speaker 6: ins with the law or drugs and then some other
Speaker 6: minor things I guess, but imprisonment for drugs, drug use
Speaker 6: and continued drug charges. But now the thing is, we
Speaker 6: got to Anthony Soul was born in nineteen fifty nine,
Speaker 6: and we're talking about in the end of the two thousand,
Speaker 6: so we're we're talking, you know, to what year are
Speaker 6: we talking? Two thousand and seven?
Speaker 3: Two thousand and seven. We can go right to it,
Speaker 3: and this is where things kind of begin.
Speaker 6: Now. I want wanted to ask you just for to
Speaker 6: set the stage because you do this in the in
Speaker 6: the book itself. Is the these women coming into the
Speaker 6: area because drugs are being sold primarily in that area.
Speaker 6: And then that's how Anthony is meeting them. How is
Speaker 6: he meeting them on foot? Is what club is he
Speaker 6: going to? How is he meeting these people? And why
Speaker 6: are they are they in this area? Uh? And tell
Speaker 6: us about his behavior after Lorie leaves and his life
Speaker 6: continues downward.
Speaker 3: It's a it's a there's a it's a wide area
Speaker 3: in in uh in Cleveland. And he Anthony was a walker.
Speaker 3: He liked to get out and he'd walk all the time.
Speaker 3: He'd ride the bus, but he'd also walk a lot.
Speaker 3: And that's one of those things. He's just kind of
Speaker 3: a wanderer. So he would he'd get out and he'd uh,
Speaker 3: you know, he'd meet people at bus stops and so
Speaker 3: on and he'd see he'd see people out, you'd get
Speaker 3: to know people. Uh. And it was it was it
Speaker 3: was kind of a the neighborhood. Of course, Yes, it drew.
Speaker 3: It had a lot of drug traffic and also had
Speaker 3: a lot of places to live, cheap places to live.
Speaker 3: It was it was close in Uh again, it was.
Speaker 3: It was a it was an urban, urban community of dysfunction,
Speaker 3: you know, it was. It was like a lot of
Speaker 3: areas and a lot of cities in America and uh,
Speaker 3: and it was it was a tough area. But if
Speaker 3: you wanted to score drugs, you could go down there.
Speaker 3: And if you had a habit, that was a good
Speaker 3: place to be. So so yeah, he you know, he
Speaker 3: was you know, he was hanging around and he was
Speaker 3: having problems. There was something going on in his head.
Speaker 3: And uh and so he knew, you know, people at
Speaker 3: some of these people that ended up eventually turning missing
Speaker 3: had been to his house. They'd hung out at his
Speaker 3: house before socially and uh and so on. So so
Speaker 3: that's that's where we were headed. But let's go ahead.
Speaker 6: I'll tell us what what starts happening in terms of
Speaker 6: Anthony soul and and and his victims in terms of
Speaker 6: people disappearing from this area. Tell us about the first
Speaker 6: victim and uh police response and what happens as a result.
Speaker 3: Well, the first, you know, there was a a young
Speaker 3: lady named Crystal Dozer, and she was she's from the area,
Speaker 3: and she she'd had a rough, rough life, long list
Speaker 3: of arrests. She had some children, a number of children
Speaker 3: somewhere adopted by a family, and you know, so on.
Speaker 3: But she had a couple of one one childhood in
Speaker 3: particular who did very well, a son who was a marine,
Speaker 3: and so on. And but a Mother's Day, Crystal called
Speaker 3: her mother wish her happy Mother's Day, and and she
Speaker 3: was never never seen again. She'd know she had been
Speaker 3: living about a mile from the house on Imperial. And
Speaker 3: they went over to the family that the son who
Speaker 3: was in the Marines. UH came in and came into town,
Speaker 3: and he came home and UH tried to find and
Speaker 3: then he went over the fourth District Police station. It
Speaker 3: was a tough it was a police station, a tough
Speaker 3: part of town. And and they said, you know, they
Speaker 3: you know, he told the police. You know, he told
Speaker 3: the police about you know, his mom's missing, and the
Speaker 3: cops told him they could, you know, he'd get a
Speaker 3: report in three days, and he never got a Report's
Speaker 3: let's put we can put this in perspective a little bit.
Speaker 3: These are people, street people. They're missing all the time.
Speaker 3: They might be turned up missing for a week, they
Speaker 3: might turn up missing for a month, and they show
Speaker 3: up again. Cops oftentimes don't take this stuff real seriously,
Speaker 3: and it's very common. They obviously now know that they
Speaker 3: do it at their own peril. By not taking a
Speaker 3: missing person's report, you know, seriously, they risk the possibility
Speaker 3: of something like somebody like Soul carrying on. But in
Speaker 3: this case, this is what happened, and and she she
Speaker 3: disappeared Mother's Mother's Day. That was the last she was seen.
Speaker 6: Now we've got we're got to put this in perspective too.
Speaker 6: We this is a black neighborhood. Uh these are these
Speaker 6: are black victims as well, right, Which is that's correct?
Speaker 3: That's correct, you.
Speaker 6: Know normally not that you know, I mean, it's a
Speaker 6: black serial killer is rare. Well we'll get to that.
Speaker 6: Anthony Soul is black. And uh so anyway, this this
Speaker 6: is another again it's going to come up a little
Speaker 6: bit later about this race. Race will be an issue
Speaker 6: to a certain extent, or at least someone will try
Speaker 6: to make it anyway. So now what's happening in terms
Speaker 6: of the neighborhood itself is uh this Crystal again, she's
Speaker 6: a block away from Imperial, from Anthony's home there. So
Speaker 6: what happens as a result of Crystal going missing? What
Speaker 6: do the police have in terms of leads? And then
Speaker 6: how do they how does everyone proceeed?
Speaker 3: Well, the police really have have have nothing, They don't
Speaker 3: they don't really proceed. Well, what does happen though, is
Speaker 3: a couple of months later people, Uh, people said that
Speaker 3: that you know that there's a smell in the neighborhood.
Speaker 3: And over the years that there had been smelled. This
Speaker 3: is a city, it smells and h only this time,
Speaker 3: you know, people are saying, you know that it's this
Speaker 3: is this is not you know, maybe it's not a
Speaker 3: you know, it smells like a dead person and you know,
Speaker 3: the people for it said, you know, dead animal whatever.
Speaker 3: And the city looked into it and they came over
Speaker 3: to raise sausage. It was right in that area, and
Speaker 3: uh they went over there and uh they told the
Speaker 3: ray the sausage. The guys that ran and raised to
Speaker 3: they had to clean their traps there. Uh, you know,
Speaker 3: all their there do a lot of work to clean
Speaker 3: up their their traps. Uh. It was a sausage manufacturing.
Speaker 3: Really sausage smells good, so you know, it was it
Speaker 3: was hard to say what they were trying to do.
Speaker 3: They were just kind of looking and you know, they
Speaker 3: were trying to find what was going on, you know, right. Uh,
Speaker 3: but but you know the thing was you got to
Speaker 3: remember too, he was still going on and off with
Speaker 3: with Laurie, so you know, so so things were you know,
Speaker 3: he he things were really bad for him, but things
Speaker 3: were still on and off with her. So she'd come
Speaker 3: by and uh, she came by and one night she says,
Speaker 3: you know, he's all beat up, and uh and uh
Speaker 3: and he you know, he if she wondered what was
Speaker 3: going on with him, and you know, he just said
Speaker 3: he got attacked. Someone tried to rob me. You know,
Speaker 3: early two thousand and eight, she came home and found him.
Speaker 3: He was all bloody and there was blood on the
Speaker 3: walls and so on, and he had tried to clean
Speaker 3: it up and he said, you know, you know, I yeah,
Speaker 3: I got I got someone tried to rob me. That's
Speaker 3: how he said. But I beat the guy up.
Speaker 6: That was cool, didn't Didn't he say he killed him
Speaker 6: or he took care of him.
Speaker 3: You say, he said, yeah, he yeah, he said he
Speaker 3: killed them. But but I don't know about that, you.
Speaker 6: Know, right, sure part of the story.
Speaker 3: So I think that macho talk, you know. Sure.
Speaker 6: So how did she react to this, in being attacked
Speaker 6: and the home was again par for the course or
Speaker 6: not such a big deal. How did she how did
Speaker 6: she respond?
Speaker 3: She was worried. She wasn't living there, of course because
Speaker 3: right but because you know, he he but but she was,
Speaker 3: you know, she was concerned. She was kind of worried
Speaker 3: about it because at the same at the same time,
Speaker 3: she had her own problem, her mom was sick, and
Speaker 3: and she was actually uh she was actually beginning to
Speaker 3: uh to get her act together. But it seemed like
Speaker 3: every time she was going by the house over there,
Speaker 3: you know, she stopped buying and see him something that
Speaker 3: was messed up with him. You know, he was he
Speaker 3: was cut or something like that. You know, right.
Speaker 6: Now, in the neighborhood, the people that know and know
Speaker 6: each other, and a lot of these people knew of
Speaker 6: each other, let's put it that way, what happens in
Speaker 6: this neighborhood. Is there any more, is anyone on alert?
Speaker 6: Is there rumors circulating in the neighborhood? What's happening at
Speaker 6: this time other than the smell was starting to.
Speaker 3: Smell eventually, and and this was you know, people began
Speaker 3: to began to chat about you know that and this
Speaker 3: is it was slowly gathering beginning about seven that that
Speaker 3: he was, you know, and nobody really talked about it
Speaker 3: too much, but you know, there began there were rumors
Speaker 3: that this guy was, you know, beating up girls and
Speaker 3: and and raping girls. But but nothing, you know, women
Speaker 3: were going missing. Nobody put anything really together. Women were
Speaker 3: going up missing, and but he you know, he I
Speaker 3: don't know, it was it was kind of it was
Speaker 3: interesting that, you know, it never it never it hadn't
Speaker 3: really hit a peak yet. You know. Laurie was Laurie
Speaker 3: was distracted because of her mother, mother dying. She got
Speaker 3: she went back to jail, and she had you know,
Speaker 3: she had had all kinds of problems, and she blew
Speaker 3: off a court date and you know, she was she
Speaker 3: was popped and and so finally she left him, she
Speaker 3: left him for good. They had a big argument, and
Speaker 3: she called him a rapist. She was she was hearing
Speaker 3: the same things, and and she just she moved out.
Speaker 3: That was it. That was about let's see August two
Speaker 3: thousand and eight, so they've been on and off for
Speaker 3: about a year and now it was just over.
Speaker 6: Now in terms of imperial drive, when is it if
Speaker 6: I'm if I'm jumping had just let me know and
Speaker 6: we'll slow it down. But when is it that he
Speaker 6: uses the second floor rather than the third floor, which
Speaker 6: is unusual because he's done all this renovating to the
Speaker 6: third floor and then the second floor really doesn't it's
Speaker 6: bare bones and there's nothing there. When tell us about that?
Speaker 6: If that's not jumping the gun?
Speaker 3: So I mean, we can we go proceed. People had
Speaker 3: people had started to disappear. I mean, now we're getting
Speaker 3: to two thousand and eight. People started disappearing at a
Speaker 3: fairly rapid rate and and just not turning up. And
Speaker 3: it was really, you know, and these were all, you know,
Speaker 3: all drug users just about and you know, they were
Speaker 3: really you know, they're really a mess.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he one night he had a friend over and
Speaker 3: somebody he knew, a girlfriend he knew, and uh, and
Speaker 3: they went up and instead of going up to the
Speaker 3: third floor, she said, uh, why do you come over?
Speaker 3: We'll go up to the second floor. And she wondered why.
Speaker 3: You know, it would later be figure out why. But
Speaker 3: he was the only one in the house now because
Speaker 3: his mom had gun had to live with her daughter
Speaker 3: and and spend time in the hospital because she was dying,
Speaker 3: and and so they she she she couldn't figure out
Speaker 3: why they were partying on the second floor. And this
Speaker 3: was soon this was this shoe. He would attack this
Speaker 3: this woman. Now we can get that we are getting
Speaker 3: a little bit ahead, because everybody was disappearing, and we'd
Speaker 3: later find out that there were there were bodies up
Speaker 3: on the up on the third floor.
Speaker 6: So what what happens? Well, okay, well tell us about
Speaker 6: this woman then then to get attacked and what happens
Speaker 6: as a results, and how many women had disappeared by
Speaker 6: this point.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember here if excuse me for not
Speaker 3: being you know, when you get when you get to
Speaker 3: so many people disappearing, you can't remember. By that point,
Speaker 3: I think we'd had quite a few, perhaps even you know,
Speaker 3: I think we're I think we're at like ten maybe
Speaker 3: we're at ten. People were way up there by by
Speaker 3: the time that that happened. But we're getting into a
Speaker 3: point where a woman goes up an old friend and
Speaker 3: she had even actually procured drugs in the past for
Speaker 3: Anthony soul, and she was a heavy addict. She went
Speaker 3: up there and that's that's when they that's when they
Speaker 3: wanted to hang She went over and she wanted to
Speaker 3: hang up, hang out up on the third floor. She
Speaker 3: couldn't understand it. They said, take a couple of straight
Speaker 3: back chairs and there's a you know, and so, you know,
Speaker 3: she wondered what was going on. And at any rate,
Speaker 3: they were talking and all of a sudden again he
Speaker 3: flips on her and she starts talking to her to
Speaker 3: some girls around here have been talking about you. They
Speaker 3: say you're a rapist or you assaulted them, and boom.
Speaker 3: He punched her, you know, straight up and told her
Speaker 3: to take off her clothes, and he assaulted her. He
Speaker 3: tied her up with a he tried to strangle her
Speaker 3: with an electrical cord and and she woke up and
Speaker 3: he was apologetic and let her go. They were friends, Remember,
Speaker 3: she went out. She said, okay, yeah, cool. He's like, hey,
Speaker 3: come on, come on back, you know, and you know
Speaker 3: we'll party later. He said, okay. She's like, yes, that's okay,
Speaker 3: that's cool. She left, and she pulled some mail from
Speaker 3: the mailbox and had his address, and she went in
Speaker 3: and reported it. She went to the emergency room, she
Speaker 3: talked to a counselor. The counselor there said they already
Speaker 3: knew of him, she said, she told me, And that's
Speaker 3: where things started to get you know, That's that's where
Speaker 3: the that's where the warrant eventually came from.
Speaker 6: Now they got a warrant based on this person's evidence,
Speaker 6: this person's testimony, or where was the information she gave police? Now,
Speaker 6: what happens with the execution of the war do we
Speaker 6: allude to that if people remember at the very beginning
Speaker 6: that the introduction of your book, so basically tell us
Speaker 6: how they got this warrant and what the warrant was for,
Speaker 6: and then proceed from there.
Speaker 3: It was a problem of cause Affid David and and
Speaker 3: it just simply said that he that he forced this
Speaker 3: this woman to engage in sexual conduct, strangled her with
Speaker 3: an extension court and rapel walls. She was unconscious at
Speaker 3: the home at one two two o five and it
Speaker 3: was it was for a sexual assault. But they sent
Speaker 3: a swat team and it's thirteen members assigned to the warrant.
Speaker 3: They went up. There's a two family home with a
Speaker 3: basement of third floor, and they went up. The first
Speaker 3: floor wasn't included in the warrant. Third floor was noted
Speaker 3: as his residence. Boom, they went up there, he wasn't there.
Speaker 3: Went down, you know, did the thing you see on
Speaker 3: cops all the time, you're going through each room. Boom, boom, boom.
Speaker 3: They found a crack pipes and pot in his room.
Speaker 3: Male addressed to him. They had the right house, of course,
Speaker 3: and they went down to a room at the end
Speaker 3: of the hallway and there was a smell and they
Speaker 3: kicked in the door and the officers saw a couple
Speaker 3: of people to his left. They had the lights on.
Speaker 3: It was dark up there, but they had the lights on.
Speaker 3: He drew his weapon and he looked and they were
Speaker 3: two bodies women. One had a clover shaped silver pennant
Speaker 3: necklace on him and the other one had a white
Speaker 3: dress pulled up to the waist. Their feet were wrapped
Speaker 3: in a garbage bag, and they had found two bodies,
Speaker 3: and that was that it turned quickly into a murder case.
Speaker 6: And those are two women that they identified.
Speaker 3: Fairly later to be later too, I later to be
Speaker 3: identified as among the eleven missing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, so now what what the now the the
Speaker 6: police have the ability to search wherever they want. Now
Speaker 6: they probably have the motive to search places that they
Speaker 6: wouldn't normally search. Like they go back and they get
Speaker 6: they get a heftier warrant, and now they can you know,
Speaker 6: they've got probable costs to search the entire place. And
Speaker 6: that's when the bodies start turning up. They're in the yard,
Speaker 6: they're in the basement. There's another one in the crawl
Speaker 6: space up there, and h and and basically the same
Speaker 6: method of uh, the strangulation electrical core extension courts.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, ligature ligature strangulation. They're finding they're finding jewelry,
Speaker 3: they're finding cell phones, they're finding clothes. Uh. You know,
Speaker 3: it's grim, you know, it's it's it's a it's just
Speaker 3: a terrible scene and you know it's a very.
Speaker 6: Very Now, is is there evidence early evidence that there
Speaker 6: is a prolonged uh once these women are kidnapped, there's
Speaker 6: some torture and is there is there any evidence of
Speaker 6: that as well to.
Speaker 3: The advance to become decomposition made it even hard to
Speaker 3: tell a time of death. But but yeah, yeah, you
Speaker 3: you there was there was evidence that there was there
Speaker 3: was abuse of the bodies, and you know, and so on.
Speaker 6: Right right now, Anthony Soul is not at the home.
Speaker 6: So where is Anthony Soul? And how does he eventually
Speaker 6: again this is another just twists and turns. How does
Speaker 6: he get arrested?
Speaker 3: He's at his half sisters tresses and uh and a
Speaker 3: neighbor saw the cops over at his house over on Imperials.
Speaker 3: His half sister lives just a few blocks away, and
Speaker 3: she goes over there and she knows, she knows he's
Speaker 3: over there. And she goes over and says, listen to
Speaker 3: cops are at your house and h and he kind of,
Speaker 3: you know, says okay, you know, and next thing you know,
Speaker 3: he disappears. He's gone. He's gone for about forty eight hours.
Speaker 3: And it's Halloween and the guy's out in the daylight
Speaker 3: and he sees this guy. There's a twelve thousand dollars reward.
Speaker 3: He sees the guy. This guy is a real sharp eye.
Speaker 3: He sees soul walking down the street and he goes
Speaker 3: in and he he goes into the you know, he
Speaker 3: goes into the fourth District police station, the same one
Speaker 3: all these people have been reporting the missing bodies to
Speaker 3: the missing people too. And the cops. The cops go
Speaker 3: out and they find him right away, and there's a corner.
Speaker 3: There's a car right around the corner from where the
Speaker 3: suspect was if his soul was walking down Mount out
Speaker 3: Mount Auburn, not not far at all. And they started
Speaker 3: asking him, you know, cop asked him who he won,
Speaker 3: and you know, they said, well, he said, well, you
Speaker 3: got me, you got me last night, and he didn't
Speaker 3: know what he meant, meaning he'd been stopping question the
Speaker 3: previous evening. And they searched the backpack and he had
Speaker 3: a backpack with him, found a box cutter and a
Speaker 3: wallet and piece of carpet and Anthony say his name
Speaker 3: was Anthony Williams. And they said, well, listen, we're going
Speaker 3: to just take a real quick, you know, real quick
Speaker 3: fingerprint and you'll be on your way. And that's when
Speaker 3: he freaked out and he said, I'm Anthony, and he said,
Speaker 3: Anthony Saul, I'm the guy you're looking for, Anthony Soul
Speaker 3: And that was it.
Speaker 6: And there was two fortunate cops right there when he
Speaker 6: admitted who he was, exactly.
Speaker 3: Two lucky cops. And the one thing he told the
Speaker 3: cops was I just want to die. Yeah. Well, well
Speaker 3: he got his way because he sentenced to death last
Speaker 3: summer last year, the summer of twenty eleven, he was
Speaker 3: sentenced to death.
Speaker 6: Well, it's amazing, you know, the trial. I mean, what's
Speaker 6: very unusual, as true crime readers know that for someone
Speaker 6: to take the stand, but the killer to take the stand,
Speaker 6: especially when the evidence is like this, it's or wanting
Speaker 6: to take the stand even he's incredible.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that was that was a unique twist in
Speaker 3: the trial. But then the account of that in the
Speaker 3: book I thought I had that was actually interesting to
Speaker 3: write just about. I've never had to write about like
Speaker 3: that kind of thing. The trial was very it was
Speaker 3: it was it was. It was tragic. It was terrible
Speaker 3: because you had to hear, you know, testimony from these
Speaker 3: these victims and they were totally traumatized and you really
Speaker 3: saw the uh, the effect that he had had, the
Speaker 3: horror that he had reaped, and uh, it was it
Speaker 3: was tough. It was tough. There was a tough book
Speaker 3: to write, you know, and uh, you know these others.
Speaker 3: I mean, no, no crime is a is a pleasant thing,
Speaker 3: but this was a really really extra tough one because
Speaker 3: of the number of victims and and just you know,
Speaker 3: hopefully we did him justice in this.
Speaker 6: And you know, the thing is all you can really
Speaker 6: do is to the truth. And so you're not going
Speaker 6: to beat up on them being judgmental, and you certainly
Speaker 6: aren't judgmental to anybody, but you have to deteck reality
Speaker 6: as it is. And it's it's a harsh reality. But
Speaker 6: a lot of people know that it didn't always come
Speaker 6: from Silver Spoon upbringing. So a lot of people know
Speaker 6: that there's the darker side of any neighborhoods or any
Speaker 6: city big or small, and so and people can end
Speaker 6: up on that the other side of the tracks pretty easy,
Speaker 6: you know, it doesn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fine, It's very true, and it's it's part
Speaker 3: of that street culture. And you know, the main thing
Speaker 3: I think, and I hope I made that point is,
Speaker 3: you know what, they had a lot of transgressions, but
Speaker 3: you know, they never they didn't deserve to die.
Speaker 6: No, they were they're basically drug addicts and victims and vulnerable,
Speaker 6: and that's why Anthony Soul took advantage of them. What
Speaker 6: I wanted to say too or about this is that
Speaker 6: these people all were in their forties and and had
Speaker 6: like extensive criminal records, but again they seem to be short,
Speaker 6: you know, prison wrecks for drug possession and continue drug
Speaker 6: use or again if it's drug trafficking, it's probably smaller amounts.
Speaker 6: So there was these people were really just they had
Speaker 6: hard lives. A lot of these people had, as evidenced
Speaker 6: in your book, eight families banded together for lawsuits to
Speaker 6: try and it tried to gain support by having those
Speaker 6: eight family I mean, I mean, who could who else
Speaker 6: could empathize and identify or relate to what these women
Speaker 6: these people were going through with these women dying and
Speaker 6: then having anthing soul. They had also said what's interesting
Speaker 6: your book too, is that the eight families had approached
Speaker 6: the prosecutor and said, listen, we would like life without
Speaker 6: the possibility to parole. We don't want a circus here,
Speaker 6: and and it didn't really want the death penalty. But
Speaker 6: tell us how the state and the county proceeded.
Speaker 3: Well, that is interesting. The petition and they at they
Speaker 3: you know, they didn't really they didn't want to go
Speaker 3: through the trauma. They were they they they knew what
Speaker 3: kind of trauma with this this uh, this trial would
Speaker 3: you know, would would bring and uh and they they
Speaker 3: they said, you know, let's we don't want to do this.
Speaker 3: We don't want to go through this. This is you know,
Speaker 3: why do we you know, why why do we want
Speaker 3: to do this?
Speaker 6: But but but sorry, sorry to interrupt you, but they
Speaker 6: also wanted this, didn't they want also want this because
Speaker 6: they wanted a full account of what actually he had.
Speaker 6: This part of the deal was he had to state
Speaker 6: exactly what he did so in terms of so in
Speaker 6: terms of for the families and for the police themselves.
Speaker 6: They wanted a true account of what actually happened here.
Speaker 3: Well right, right, But I mean I think the thing
Speaker 3: was they if they well I guess, I guess the
Speaker 3: the the main thing was this this whole uh, this
Speaker 3: whole thing went to you know, went to went to
Speaker 3: go through uh. You know, they filed a petition and
Speaker 3: the of course, the the defense attorneys thought this would
Speaker 3: be a great thing. The county just rejected it. And
Speaker 3: and then you know, you know it was it surprised
Speaker 3: the defense, but the state's position was that these cases,
Speaker 3: his soul's case is exactly why the state has a death.
Speaker 6: Penalty, right right, yeah, from the from the just the
Speaker 6: cruelty and verbarity of the crime itself. Now in terms
Speaker 6: of uh, and we won't go and give everything away
Speaker 6: here but the despicable and deplorable Anthony soul. Of course,
Speaker 6: he tries to defend himself. What are the some of
Speaker 6: the attempts. So how did he attempt to defend himself?
Speaker 6: How did he go about that in terms of what
Speaker 6: was his you know, his strategy for defense.
Speaker 3: Well, it was to to impugne the the the the
Speaker 3: victor of the surviving victims. It was, you know, they
Speaker 3: try to say, you know, uh, these victims again that
Speaker 3: the survivors would have you know, they were subject to
Speaker 3: dubious honesty, you know, and uh, you know, drug users
Speaker 3: characters are not always stellar. As he said that they
Speaker 3: had many problems, problems with substance abuse. They tried to
Speaker 3: paint them as crazy and it wasn't you know, I
Speaker 3: got to say, the defense did a good job. They'd
Speaker 3: never really were abusive to these They did it with
Speaker 3: some sensitivity, if that's possible. But but but it was
Speaker 3: the best they could do. I mean, they didn't, you know,
Speaker 3: they they could not keep this from going really off
Speaker 3: the rails. I mean, it was a really really ugly,
Speaker 3: ugly trial. It was just it was it was terrible.
Speaker 3: They put they did put Anthony Soul up on the
Speaker 3: stand without being with There was a there was a
Speaker 3: a mitigator. In the middation part of the sentence. Anthony
Speaker 3: his soul offered a very half hearted apology. This isn't
Speaker 3: like me, that's what he said. But it was the
Speaker 3: first time the public got to hear Anthony Soul talk.
Speaker 3: It was that that was very interesting. He said, this
Speaker 3: is nothing typical of me.
Speaker 6: What did you conclude after hearing and knowing of his
Speaker 6: crimes and hearing what he had to say.
Speaker 3: He was a cold blooded killer and he was just
Speaker 3: trying to you know, he was doing the best he could.
Speaker 3: But he was just a bad guy who did a
Speaker 3: really bad thing, and bad things should happen to him,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, it's it's it's bad. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's it's an interesting that we have a justice system
Speaker 3: in which the killing is part of the justice system.
Speaker 3: That's odd, and so you know that that's a that's
Speaker 3: a matter of opinion that everybody has their own opinion
Speaker 3: on the death penalty. But all you could think is,
Speaker 3: you know, there was it. It evoked anger. I think
Speaker 3: I evoked anger from from everyone in that in that
Speaker 3: courtroom when he testified.
Speaker 6: Right, A lot of no and a lot of people
Speaker 6: felt with this trial too, that their complaint was and
Speaker 6: maybe it's a common one among a community of eighty
Speaker 6: percent black people, that nobody cared about these black people.
Speaker 6: Nobody cared because they were black. And you say, maybe
Speaker 6: maybe it was partially racial, but really it's maybe more
Speaker 6: about class than anything else.
Speaker 3: I think it was more about class. That's right, That's
Speaker 3: exactly right. It's if you're if you're poor, you live
Speaker 3: in the wrong part of town. A crime isn't you
Speaker 3: know that they're not going to get the attention and
Speaker 3: the resources that a crime in a better part of
Speaker 3: town is because simply because of the rarity of the occurrence.
Speaker 3: As speaking as a long time journalist, you know, you
Speaker 3: look twice at these crimes that happened in a an
Speaker 3: upscale neighborhood, you say, well, that's weird. Well, unfortunately, sadly,
Speaker 3: crimes in poverty parts of town, poverty ridden parts of
Speaker 3: town are not weird, They're common. And uh. And the
Speaker 3: idea in you know, in reporting is you try to
Speaker 3: report something that's out of the ordinary, and that's that's
Speaker 3: an element of news in a way. So yeah, it's
Speaker 3: it's it's it's a it's a sad fact. But it
Speaker 3: still doesn't excuse the fact that maybe the police would
Speaker 3: look the other way or or fall down on the job.
Speaker 3: It's easy to say they did. I don't know that
Speaker 3: they did. I couldn't make that judgment really when we
Speaker 3: lay it out. I lay it out pretty heavy in
Speaker 3: the in the book, and I think it's for the
Speaker 3: reader to decide.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, the thing is, we're we're in retrospect.
Speaker 6: Everybody's a genius, so and we can all solve it.
Speaker 6: In retroster corpse, there is a grig lapses and gaps
Speaker 6: and judge and in judgment and assessment and these things
Speaker 6: should have been done in those things should have been done.
Speaker 3: And we can go on.
Speaker 6: Endlessly debating, you know, because we're not going to do that.
Speaker 6: But you do an admirable job of painting the picture
Speaker 6: of reality, what it really is, what was it really like?
Speaker 6: And what's always interesting. And this is not the only book.
Speaker 6: There's many, many examples of these so called prostitutes coming
Speaker 6: forward with these incredible tales that could have derailed these
Speaker 6: serial killers at least earlier and maybe avoided a few victims.
Speaker 6: And the few is very important. Any victim saved would
Speaker 6: have been important. But they just they have no credibility
Speaker 6: because they do drugs. And that's I think even more
Speaker 6: disturbing to me is that it's true.
Speaker 3: I mean, you just didn't have anybody credible coming forward
Speaker 3: and saying they were attacked because he didn't attack credible people.
Speaker 3: He didn't really know credible people, and so, you know,
Speaker 3: and I think that's a you know, this is common
Speaker 3: among serial killers that prey on, you know, in their
Speaker 3: own neighborhood. And you find that a lot more with
Speaker 3: the black sir killers, of which there are there are
Speaker 3: quite a few. They tend to pray on people in
Speaker 3: their own neighborhood and because they know they are going
Speaker 3: to be missed, you know, that kind of thing. And
Speaker 3: I think also they pray on someone that they despise themselves.
Speaker 3: They don't like that element in their in their neighborhood.
Speaker 3: They feel you know, there's always that thing where you
Speaker 3: feel you're doing it. You know you're helping, you're helping
Speaker 3: the neighborhood, that kind of thing.
Speaker 6: You're incredible, incredible, Yeah, Steve, I just wanted to tell
Speaker 6: you too, this this book is a real Like I said,
Speaker 6: I'm on my seat for the whole thing. Lots of books,
Speaker 6: you know, there's a lot of foregone conclusions. This one
Speaker 6: don't take anything for granted because just turn the page
Speaker 6: and something else will happen. And you've done a great
Speaker 6: job of bringing the reader right into the characters of
Speaker 6: this book. And it's a sad story. There's no happy
Speaker 6: ending really, but it's an incredible, incredible tale. I want
Speaker 6: to thank you very much for coming on the program
Speaker 6: and sharing the story with us.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. I appreciate you got a great show.
Speaker 6: Uh tell us a little bit about You've got a
Speaker 6: couple other books your girl wanted and you're co author
Speaker 6: of Slaying in the Suburbs and you have a website.
Speaker 6: Maybe you can tell us about that and uh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a www. Dot Avalanche fifty dot com and uh,
Speaker 3: you know, I'll be posting some stuff on as we
Speaker 3: crank up, you know, for your you know, for the
Speaker 3: uh uh, for the press, for this, for this book.
Speaker 3: I'll be putting some uh, some documents up there that
Speaker 3: are later cited in the book, and perhaps some more
Speaker 3: photos as well, so you can go there and see
Speaker 3: some extra extra content and also be just talking about,
Speaker 3: you know, any kind of anything that comes out of this,
Speaker 3: any kind of press and uh, you know, just to
Speaker 3: keep track of public reaction. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. It was interesting too, is that I said, how
Speaker 6: can I not heard about this? And and it was
Speaker 6: you know, it was the uh, the Casey Anthony case.
Speaker 6: And I went, oh, yeah, that that overshadowed everything somehow.
Speaker 6: Uh And and again it's just just what we talked
Speaker 6: about race and class.
Speaker 3: It's like, well, true, it's exactly right. And I remember
Speaker 3: I was head, I was heading down to Cleveland to
Speaker 3: you know, to cover the trial, and uh and I thought,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not seeing this on TV at all,
Speaker 3: and then boom it hit me, you know, oh I
Speaker 3: am seeing Casey Anthony though.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's the name here too, and it's marginalized people
Speaker 6: people in this city said, well, how I how come
Speaker 6: I didn't hear about that because because it's marginalized people,
Speaker 6: that's why.
Speaker 3: Nobody exactly right, Yeah, yeah, of course, right, well it
Speaker 3: sure sure did. And and and again the title of
Speaker 3: the book, you know, Nobody's Women, is because I, you know,
Speaker 3: Rick came right from the start where I felt, this
Speaker 3: is terrible, because these are really Nobody's women. How did
Speaker 3: that happen? You know? And so hopefully we explain a
Speaker 3: little bit, you know, that they are human, they were
Speaker 3: human beings, and and people who loved him.
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Well, thank you very much, Steve. People
Speaker 6: have been listening to Nobody's Women, The Crimes and Victims
Speaker 6: of Anthony soul the Cleveland serial Killer, with my Usholl
Speaker 6: guests Steve Miller. Thank you very much, Steve, have a
Speaker 6: great evening and hope to talk to you again soon.
Speaker 3: All right, thanks again, Dan, good night, good night,