Speaker 1: I'm Ali.
Speaker 2: I came out after twenty years of marriage and I
Speaker 2: have three kids.
Speaker 3: I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
Speaker 3: out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 2: This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
Speaker 2: and victories that come with it.
Speaker 3: When coming out feels like the end of the world,
Speaker 3: but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 4: This is the Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 5: Do I need to grab the dog?
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 2: I love having like a tiny little something that everyone
Speaker 2: hears before the show.
Speaker 1: Do you want me to grab the dog?
Speaker 5: But there's always something happening.
Speaker 1: I know you've got a lot of balls in the
Speaker 1: air right now.
Speaker 5: I do I know not fun.
Speaker 2: I think you're killing it. You look like you're killing
Speaker 2: it all right, Well.
Speaker 5: So how's it going good?
Speaker 2: Give us a little tidbit on You're gonna be the
Speaker 2: DJ at the Urban Pie patio takeover.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they're doing like a Pride party patio takeover
Speaker 3: at Urban Pie June twentieth, and I will be the DJ.
Speaker 5: Yes, this is my second time djang.
Speaker 1: It's your DJ name.
Speaker 5: I don't have a DJ name like am I DJing
Speaker 5: or am I playing?
Speaker 1: Music.
Speaker 2: I know you know what also, you just have to
Speaker 2: do I know this crowd so well. I can tell
Speaker 2: you what the bangers are. I'm terrible at djang, but
Speaker 2: there's a few songs that if you do these, you
Speaker 2: win them.
Speaker 5: Over so quick exactly. And it's a matter of just
Speaker 5: like playing the songs through.
Speaker 1: Play the songs through which I struggle with everyone knows through.
Speaker 1: But also don't let them get quiet. You have to
Speaker 1: transition to the next song before it's too night.
Speaker 2: Okay, well let's get into our topic because we don't
Speaker 2: have that much time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm I'm very curious to hear your takes
Speaker 3: are on this, especially Robin.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Robin and I were having a conversation about you
Speaker 2: come out your Most people or a lot of our
Speaker 2: friends were very very fem and then little by little
Speaker 2: as they kind of come into their sexuality, they start
Speaker 2: to kind of their style morphs a little bit. They're
Speaker 2: what they're attracted to morphs a little bit. I mean,
Speaker 2: my catalyst was mask, but I what got me thinking
Speaker 2: about it is I had this situation where I realized
Speaker 2: that like I like the feeling of like a femme woman,
Speaker 2: like needing me a little bit like holding my arm
Speaker 2: or like leaning into me.
Speaker 1: If she's cold. Yep.
Speaker 2: And I like that feeling, and I think that's a
Speaker 2: more masculine feeling.
Speaker 1: I can relate to that. And I think I also
Speaker 1: a lot of the friends that we have were married
Speaker 1: to men at one point. I have never identified as
Speaker 1: somebody who's super feminine, but in a marriage to a man,
Speaker 1: you just kind of fall into these more traditional roles
Speaker 1: of like the man is taking out the trash, or
Speaker 1: the man is fixing something around the house or or
Speaker 1: things like that. But also you lean into these things
Speaker 1: of like one person is supposed to initiate sex or
Speaker 1: contact or things like that holding doors open. And as
Speaker 1: I've been kind of navigating dating women, I'm finding I
Speaker 1: like to do a lot of those things. I like
Speaker 1: to be feel like the person who is like the
Speaker 1: caretaker in a way, or like the more solid like
Speaker 1: foundation of the relationship or I don't know, there's like
Speaker 1: there and you said these other day, and I've related
Speaker 1: so much to it. There feels there's like this power
Speaker 1: in a way that I feel when I can put
Speaker 1: my arm around someone, you know, like sitting in a
Speaker 1: chair at a bar or at a table, like I
Speaker 1: naturally will like lean back and lean into them and
Speaker 1: put my armor on their right and that that feels
Speaker 1: more masculine to.
Speaker 2: Me, or to somebody lean into you and say I'm
Speaker 2: cold and like snuggle into.
Speaker 1: You in the booth. A man's not doing or a
Speaker 1: man's not doing that to a woman. Imagine this guy
Speaker 1: like scuddling up next to you.
Speaker 2: And being like, I'm cold, let me sit near you.
Speaker 1: Get out of your weirdo.
Speaker 2: But like if a woman does that, and that is
Speaker 2: kind of what happened, it made me.
Speaker 1: I loved that feeling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's not It's like things like
Speaker 2: that are happening more and more so I'm starting to
Speaker 2: realize maybe.
Speaker 1: I do have a type. Yeah, I would say, I
Speaker 1: think I am figuring that out too, Like I have
Speaker 1: a hard time picturing being with someone who is more
Speaker 1: masculine than me, right, Like I'm kind of middle of
Speaker 1: the road, but like lean a little bit more feminine,
Speaker 1: but I gravitate towards women who are more feminine than me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say, when I think about who you've dated, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's all I feel like. It's people who
Speaker 1: are also kind of like middle of the road and
Speaker 1: have like masculine and feminine like qualities. Is far as
Speaker 1: like how they carry themselves, the way they dress, things
Speaker 1: like that. But I don't know what it is, but
Speaker 1: I definitely feel just more comfortable and more natural in
Speaker 1: a role that feels more masculine at least like outside,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like walking around like you said, opening the door
Speaker 2: or like yeah, yeah, what about you?
Speaker 1: What say you? Well?
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting because it's one of those things
Speaker 3: like as you're coming out, like we're not thinking about
Speaker 3: this kind of No. No, I wasn't thinking like who
Speaker 3: am I going to be attracted to?
Speaker 5: How am I going to feel when I'm around certain people?
Speaker 3: And it's one of those things that like you guys
Speaker 3: are kind of saying, It's like it's changing over time,
Speaker 3: because initially I was really trying to like keep that
Speaker 3: feminine energy and wanting to like not even realizing that
Speaker 3: I was like holding back on this like masculine side
Speaker 3: of mine, you know, because I was so used to
Speaker 3: like putting myself in like the straight box, in the
Speaker 3: feminine box and showing up that way. It like took
Speaker 3: me a while to kind of like really start to
Speaker 3: like access that part of myself.
Speaker 2: Tell Robin about clop clop, I just think it's it's
Speaker 2: an appropriate time.
Speaker 3: I mean, so, it's It's one of those things, is
Speaker 3: theory that Ally and I have Sometimes women want to
Speaker 3: dress feminine, but they don't realize how much masculine energy
Speaker 3: they have and they're wearing their heels.
Speaker 5: Right, not a clop clopper.
Speaker 1: You were not a clop clopper.
Speaker 5: I am a pageant trained.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what if I was clop clopping at the wedding.
Speaker 1: If I was clop clopping at the wedding, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: looking so radiant in her dress all femmow I was.
Speaker 1: I was kind of into it, to be honest.
Speaker 5: Well, and that's just it.
Speaker 3: It's like I I wore a dressed to my brother's
Speaker 3: wedding a few years ago, and I felt great in it,
Speaker 3: and but I don't know that I would make that
Speaker 3: choice today.
Speaker 1: No, you would wear suit. No, I can't even picture you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine it myself.
Speaker 5: But it's like that.
Speaker 3: That was I've been out for like, I think three
Speaker 3: years at that point, at four years maybe, But as
Speaker 3: far as like what I'm attracted to, I feel like
Speaker 3: I have stuck to being attracted to feminine women the
Speaker 3: whole time. However, I like feminine women that are going
Speaker 3: to like stand up for themselves, that are very like
Speaker 3: strong willed, strong minded. They don't they don't care if
Speaker 3: I'm opening the door for them or not, you know,
Speaker 3: going to but they can handle their own shit. If
Speaker 3: something's wrong with our food at the restaurant, I don't
Speaker 3: have to like handle everything.
Speaker 1: Which I was just having these exact thoughts, I'm doing
Speaker 1: this that my children. I was just having those exact thoughts,
Speaker 1: like right before you said that, because there's a difference
Speaker 1: I think in how someone dresses and presents in that
Speaker 1: way that like you think of as a more feminine
Speaker 1: woman is maybe gonna wear heels, is gonna wear dresses,
Speaker 1: is gonna have jewelry and makeup and those kinds of things,
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean they're timid or soft or can't
Speaker 1: take control of a situation. And I am also that's
Speaker 1: also like probably even more important for me in who
Speaker 1: I'm attracted to is the energy that they have, and
Speaker 1: that I think is also something that's fluid and it's
Speaker 1: not necessarily all feminine or all masculine. It's kind of
Speaker 1: a balance and like the femininity is like the emotional
Speaker 1: sides of things, and like the softness in how you
Speaker 1: approach situations, and the masculine is like the secure, sturdy
Speaker 1: like force, if you will, and like somebody who carries
Speaker 1: themselves with like a confidence and isn't afraid to like
Speaker 1: bring up when something isn't to their liking, or like
Speaker 1: you're saying at a restaurant, they stand up for themselves
Speaker 1: or they don't need me to open the door for them,
Speaker 1: but they're happy to let me open the door for
Speaker 1: them kind of thing. Like it's it's a balance. And
Speaker 1: I think another kind of like more recent learning that
Speaker 1: I've had and conversation that I had with the girl
Speaker 1: that I was just dating, was like because she also
Speaker 1: had been married to a man for a long time
Speaker 1: and had dated women. But it was like we were
Speaker 1: having this ongoing conversation that just because I feel like
Speaker 1: I want to be the like caretaker and kind of
Speaker 1: like more masculine person out in the open, out in
Speaker 1: public today doesn't mean I don't want you to still
Speaker 1: take care of me tonight, you know, right like later
Speaker 1: It's like and you can kind of both carry the
Speaker 1: weight of the masculine and the feminine and balance each
Speaker 1: other out. If like somebody is not feeling it today,
Speaker 1: I can pick that up for you, you know, And
Speaker 1: that's kind of I think for me, what has been
Speaker 1: a really cool thing about dating women that I've never
Speaker 1: experienced dating men is that it doesn't always have to
Speaker 1: be like cut and dry, of this person has strong
Speaker 1: in this thing. You can bounce bounce each other out,
Speaker 1: and like I think women are do that beautifully of
Speaker 1: like having that fluidity and having the ability to like
Speaker 1: pick up where somebody else is like not feeling great or.
Speaker 3: I think also it's like there's an aspect of thinking
Speaker 3: that like masculine presenting women like don't have like deep emotions,
Speaker 3: you know, like that they're so guarded and all these things,
Speaker 3: and it's like, no, like the opposite me included, it's
Speaker 3: I'm a sensitive little baby.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: This is facts, straight up fact can at test.
Speaker 3: But it's also like that's that's pretty commonplace for you know,
Speaker 3: masks or feminine women. You know, like the emotions are
Speaker 3: there no matter what, no matter how like whether or
Speaker 3: not you're wearing heels or a hat.
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, what about sitting on a woman's life lap?
Speaker 1: Now this is like that's a non start. Yeah for me,
Speaker 1: I'm definitely more comfortable being the one being sat on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, really, am I sitting in your lap
Speaker 2: right now?
Speaker 1: I would feel like a large child. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but you're not large, But that's how I feel. I
Speaker 1: would feel so awkward. Yeah, it's like weird. Now why
Speaker 1: it's so weird that? But I would like someone on
Speaker 1: my lap? Yeah, it's funny. I feel like we need
Speaker 1: we need to pull grown here can be the one
Speaker 1: who's happy to be sitting on the lap. It's probably
Speaker 1: people that surprise you, like LG. It looks like she
Speaker 1: could sit on some laps.
Speaker 2: Even though you wouldn't, it would surprise you because she's
Speaker 2: you know, I think that's an interesting one.
Speaker 1: I mean, but I think that goes to everything we're
Speaker 1: saying is, yeah, people can either present a certain way
Speaker 1: or be received certain way. And as far as like
Speaker 1: masculinity or femininity, but like behind the curtain, they're someone
Speaker 1: totally different, right, And it doesn't and that's amazing. It
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be that you're a masculine person, so
Speaker 1: that means you carry all this masculine energy, right, you
Speaker 1: cann't be both totally.
Speaker 3: And I think that's a good point too, because it's like,
Speaker 3: even if you are one of the clop clop Lesbian
Speaker 3: likes to.
Speaker 5: Point out, they might feel really good.
Speaker 1: In that outfit, Yeah, totally, even if.
Speaker 3: That's like not maybe conveying as in our opinion, but
Speaker 3: I mean, that's how they feel comfortable and good.
Speaker 5: So go for it.
Speaker 3: I think that's the biggest thing too, is like that
Speaker 3: that letting go of like what other people are expecting
Speaker 3: for you to present as, and that was something I
Speaker 3: had to do for sure.
Speaker 2: What about also just talk about how long I mean
Speaker 2: when I think, well, the style, for one thing, is
Speaker 2: not as feminine, like people don't wait as feminine clothes
Speaker 2: anymore anyway, So it's like the style kind of has
Speaker 2: gone along with my sexual sexuality evolution. But now it's
Speaker 2: like to think about putting on that girly outfit. I know,
Speaker 2: I did the dress for the wedding and I felt
Speaker 2: great in it, but like to think about wearing some
Speaker 2: of that stuff now. I could have two summers ago,
Speaker 2: so it hasn't been that long, but now it would
Speaker 2: feel weird.
Speaker 1: So it's like, what's happened.
Speaker 5: Do you think it correlates with cutting your hair shorter?
Speaker 1: Oh? Man, I don't know. Yeah maybe good. Yeah that's scary.
Speaker 1: I mean I have I have clothes that I bought
Speaker 1: two summers ago that I cannot wear anymore, like either
Speaker 1: shorts that are just too short, Yes, that's what I
Speaker 1: mean in them, or tops that are more feminine. It's
Speaker 1: easier for me with tops than shorts summertime right now.
Speaker 1: But yeah, like it's I'm definitely still going through an
Speaker 1: evolution of like fashion and how I how what I
Speaker 1: feel good in, you know, as far right like just
Speaker 1: but that's again that's also just outward appearances, like I'm
Speaker 1: a I'm a giant baby when it comes to like
Speaker 1: emotional things and I want someone to hold me, hold me.
Speaker 1: Said that, like oh this week and now I propped
Speaker 1: her up on my couch two days ago. I put
Speaker 1: a pillow.
Speaker 2: I said, Robin, you just lay down. I'm gonna get
Speaker 2: a pillow under those knees.
Speaker 1: I brought my kids over and Alie's like, don't you worry.
Speaker 1: I'm making a plate full of cookies. They can have
Speaker 1: all the juice, and they want the best her little one.
Speaker 2: I saved the message. Her little one left me of
Speaker 2: an audio message that.
Speaker 1: Said get we come over, and I.
Speaker 2: Literally was like, you can move in here, like you
Speaker 2: can do anything you want exactly.
Speaker 1: I know my like, I know my kids are comfortable
Speaker 1: here now because the first ten times they came over,
Speaker 1: they were like perfectly well behaved, super quiet. I mean,
Speaker 1: my kids are good kids generally speaking. But when we
Speaker 1: were here on Sunday, they were the older two were
Speaker 1: like wrestling each other on the window seed and like
Speaker 1: whining about stuff. And I was like, cool, we've reached
Speaker 1: that phase. Yeah. I was glad for it. I was gold.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I guess everybody does want to be held
Speaker 2: like no matter whether you're femme.
Speaker 1: Or not, like that feels good. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But in my long relationship, I wasn't the mask one. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I would say we were both. I mean
Speaker 2: I was tomboy balanced there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I don't know, I guess you evolved a
Speaker 3: little bit while.
Speaker 5: You were in that relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like initially, yes, I would have said that
Speaker 3: she was the more like androgynous.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you kind of shifted, but I felt like your
Speaker 5: roles were very equal.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say again, I feel like saying
Speaker 1: I was the more masculine I was or wasn't the
Speaker 1: more masculine one. It feels like you're mostly that to
Speaker 1: like outward appearances still.
Speaker 2: Well, or just even the feeling of like like we
Speaker 2: talked about like Saturday, like.
Speaker 1: Being in my power.
Speaker 2: Yeahs if somebody needs me, if somebody like physically needs me,
Speaker 2: that feels like lovely like and I want to be
Speaker 2: I think this. I hope this doesn't come back to
Speaker 2: haunt me, but I want to be bigger than someone
Speaker 2: I don't want to be like have be like I
Speaker 2: don't know, like that's weird to I'm not big by
Speaker 2: any means, but like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually just had the same thought because I've
Speaker 1: always had kind of a complex about my height. Like
Speaker 1: I was taller than all the boys and the girls
Speaker 1: in middle school had had an early gross burt. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I've always kind of had a complex about my height.
Speaker 1: But now I'm surrounded by a lot of women who
Speaker 1: are like my height, yeah, or even taller. But I've
Speaker 1: I've always thought like I would want to date someone
Speaker 1: who's the same size as me, Yeah, like not somebody
Speaker 1: who's smaller right, and like here I am, I found
Speaker 1: myself dating mostly women who are smaller than it doesn't
Speaker 1: feel it actually feels great. I know that feeling of
Speaker 1: like being able to put my arms around someone you
Speaker 1: know and be that kind of have that protective feeling.
Speaker 2: That's what I mean, that protective feeling relate to that.
Speaker 2: But okay, well, I'm going to bring up the part
Speaker 2: that you were like, I don't know if I can
Speaker 2: go there.
Speaker 1: But the bedroom part cool because it is like sometimes.
Speaker 2: People surprise you who you think would be so like
Speaker 2: not yeah, the dominant kind of person in the bedroom.
Speaker 1: Then it flips yeah, I mean, I think again it
Speaker 1: goes back to the beauty of being with women that
Speaker 1: I am learning and continuing to learn is it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be set as one way or the other.
Speaker 1: Like the person who may present physically out to the
Speaker 1: world as more masculine might not be the more masculine
Speaker 1: or more dominant person when it comes to sex. And
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, there probably are people out there
Speaker 1: who are much more comfortable being always the initiator or
Speaker 1: always the one like receiving. Generally speaking, I think it's
Speaker 1: more common that women are comfortable doing both, right, and
Speaker 1: again with kind of the fluidity that we were talking
Speaker 1: about before, that applies to sex too with women, like
Speaker 1: there isn't a traditional role of who needs to be
Speaker 1: doing what at any given time. You kind of balance
Speaker 1: each other out and can read each other's language and know,
Speaker 1: you know, I I need to be taken care of more.
Speaker 1: Now it's time to flip you this.
Speaker 6: Way, this way, or like maybe tonight I want to
Speaker 6: initiate first, but like I'm gonna you know, your tables
Speaker 6: are going to turn.
Speaker 2: Yeah, God willing, God willing, they will know they will.
Speaker 3: But I also think that some of this kind of
Speaker 3: like speaks to how there can be like miscommunication in
Speaker 3: like a reallylationship with two women. It's like if you're
Speaker 3: not communicating like that you want to cook and that
Speaker 3: you don't want to mow the lawn or whatever, Like
Speaker 3: how does that work? Like if you're not actually talking
Speaker 3: about it. Yeah, I think there is a lot of
Speaker 3: like expectations of like mind reading sometimes.
Speaker 7: Yeah, like you should know to do that, yeah, or
Speaker 7: if you're not communicating that this is how I like
Speaker 7: it in the bedroom, that's on you too, Like I
Speaker 7: whipped you don't want to be over Okay.
Speaker 2: Sorry, and I like flipping you, so flip the fuck over.
Speaker 1: Communication is key in all objects of life. Yes, oh
Speaker 1: that's really funny.
Speaker 2: No, I think it can be surprising, and of course,
Speaker 2: like a lot of people are switches, but there are
Speaker 2: a lot of women out there who aren't.
Speaker 1: Like they they're one way. But it's like, think about
Speaker 1: with a man you would never have like I think.
Speaker 2: Most men this is such a generalization, but there is
Speaker 2: that stereotype, that trope of like the man wants it
Speaker 2: and she's like constantly having to do it like that
Speaker 2: to me, and they are like driving that situation happening,
Speaker 2: where with women it is way more balanced.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank god, I know, right, Yeah, God, it's sure if.
Speaker 3: You're a man listening and you're expecting that stop it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, And I guess if you're married a long time,
Speaker 2: I'm sure that things shift right whether it's a man
Speaker 2: or a woman.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it goes back to what Melissa
Speaker 1: brought up. Is communication, Like if you are feeling a
Speaker 1: certain way about how things are going, or if you're
Speaker 1: not up for initiating or you just talking about it
Speaker 1: is key. I mean, being able to communicate what you
Speaker 1: like or what you want to try, or what you
Speaker 1: don't like. I mean, I just think again, it's all
Speaker 1: about communicating with your partner and finding the balance of
Speaker 1: what works for both of you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, and that takes confidence absolutely, Like I
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of people out there who couldn't
Speaker 2: couldn't verbal.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: There was a whole thing with Gwyneth Paltrow I think
Speaker 2: did it where it's like people have such a hard
Speaker 2: time like describing what they want, like explicitly what they want,
Speaker 2: and they did this thing where they were like having
Speaker 2: each other. It's awkward to even say, like having each
Speaker 2: other like rub each other's hand, and it would be
Speaker 2: like I want you to tell me how you want
Speaker 2: your hand rubbed, while I'm like rubbing your hand, And
Speaker 2: it's just like this weird feeling of like telling someone
Speaker 2: how to it not to me, like I'll say it
Speaker 2: all day long. But I think that like that watching
Speaker 2: this awkward interaction was.
Speaker 1: This hetero sexual relationship, I think it was hetero, but
Speaker 1: it was just like trying to it was trying to
Speaker 1: show how like it is difficult for a lot of
Speaker 1: people to like like if someone's giving you a massage,
Speaker 1: just a friend and you're like, Okay, now go deeper
Speaker 1: on the right, move a little this way, this way, harder, harder.
Speaker 1: I have a friend.
Speaker 5: A friend is giving you assa.
Speaker 1: What friend do you have? I get massages all the time.
Speaker 1: I mean, I will say I think in my marriage,
Speaker 1: and I mean I'm speaking for myself here, but definitely
Speaker 1: it was there was a lack of communication in exactly
Speaker 1: what you're saying, like the ability to be comfortable saying
Speaker 1: can you scratch my hand in this way? That's what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Differently, yeah, but now I would say, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be that way with somebody the first
Speaker 1: time I ever have sex with them, but hopefully pretty
Speaker 1: quickly you're comfortable enough to say I do or don't
Speaker 1: like that, or I like it this way instead of
Speaker 1: that way, or you know. But it's going to depend
Speaker 1: on the person that you're with and like how comfortable
Speaker 1: you are with them.
Speaker 2: And and I think really like just psa, there's nothing
Speaker 2: hotter than someone telling you what they like.
Speaker 1: So to me, it's like, don't.
Speaker 2: Say it absolutely so I think, like, no, that's you
Speaker 2: don't need to be shy about that piece. I've never
Speaker 2: ever heard a woman say it was so weird. She
Speaker 2: was like telling me what she likes, Like that doesn't happen.
Speaker 5: When I was with men.
Speaker 3: There was an aspect though of like where I couldn't
Speaker 3: verbalize what I wanted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're probably like I don't want any of it.
Speaker 3: I know, but that's like my brain couldn't like form
Speaker 3: those thoughts that that's what was going on. It was
Speaker 3: more so like, oh, like what should I want right now?
Speaker 3: Like what should I say?
Speaker 5: And it was like I came, I just couldn't think
Speaker 5: of what to say. Yeah, and I'm like, let me.
Speaker 1: Bring it on. I'm going to tell you exactly what
Speaker 1: I want exactly. But it takes a while too to
Speaker 1: get clear on that.
Speaker 2: Like, I think I talked about that about my kids
Speaker 2: when they were you know, we talked about sex all
Speaker 2: the time. But as they've gotten older, even like I
Speaker 2: feel like I want them to be so well versed
Speaker 2: in what they like so that they're not like spending
Speaker 2: time just giving themselves to people can't please them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. Yeah, because my parent we never talked
Speaker 1: about it. I wish I had those kind of conversations.
Speaker 5: I don't know that I.
Speaker 3: Wish it would have happened, but you know, it would
Speaker 3: have been like a little helpful in some circumstances, but yeah,
Speaker 3: that would have felt I don't know if my family
Speaker 3: was not like that, but it is one of those
Speaker 3: things where I do feel like you have a responsibility
Speaker 3: as a parent to like talk to your kids about
Speaker 3: and especially like consent too, like from from both ways,
Speaker 3: Like right, as a woman, you should be expecting to
Speaker 3: be consented with. You know, you don't have to do
Speaker 3: whatever this guy is pushing you to.
Speaker 5: Do or girl or girl or girl exactly facts, but.
Speaker 1: It's also just think about like and you guys may.
Speaker 2: Be different, but I had sex with lots of guys
Speaker 2: pre marriage, and I don't I can count like on
Speaker 2: one I can. I mean I can almost like remember
Speaker 2: the times that I thought it was like wildly good. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And so that's how I know, like I didn't know
Speaker 2: what I needed exactly, how the hell are they gonna
Speaker 2: know what I need?
Speaker 5: Same?
Speaker 1: I just had this conversation, yeah, like a week ago exactly.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm saying I wish I had had those
Speaker 1: conversations when I was younger. I mean, my family wasn't
Speaker 1: that way either, and I definitely wasn't having those conversations,
Speaker 1: but if I had, I would have known myself so
Speaker 1: much better, so much earlier, right, And I think that
Speaker 1: would have just been really valuable. I mean, I am
Speaker 1: where I am today and there's no changing that, and
Speaker 1: you know all the things that we all feel as
Speaker 1: like later in life lesbians, but absolutely I will be
Speaker 1: having those conversations with my kids so that they know themselves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they know the kind of people that they want
Speaker 1: to spend time with and be with and in every
Speaker 1: way not just related to sex, but just people who
Speaker 1: make you feel good.
Speaker 2: Totally and make you feel like yourself, and I think
Speaker 2: make it a priority. I mean you think about like men,
Speaker 2: I'm sure they would they want you to be happy,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't like their goal is to make sure
Speaker 2: they have a good time during that experience, like that's
Speaker 2: their number one goal. And I think that's another difference
Speaker 2: with women. I mean, I'm responsible for my own like
Speaker 2: having it be good, but I do think like with women,
Speaker 2: there I also feel I want to learn, like I
Speaker 2: want to know it all and I want to figure
Speaker 2: it out, and maybe that takes months, maybe it takes years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I mean I think biologically, men are
Speaker 1: wired differently and they literally are more one track minded, yeah,
Speaker 1: for themselves exactly, And women are more wired to want
Speaker 1: to please everyone. Yeah, themselves and their partners or whoever
Speaker 1: you know it is in question, right, So I think
Speaker 1: that's another benefit.
Speaker 2: That's another benefit, and part of pleasing you is pleasing themselves,
Speaker 2: which is.
Speaker 1: Knowing yourself, being able to communicate what you liked, yeah
Speaker 1: the other person exactly. Yeah, totally. I like that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the other thing too.
Speaker 3: It's like for me, like being with a woman and
Speaker 3: pleasing a woman is so much more, Like I get
Speaker 3: so much more out of it than I ever did
Speaker 3: when I was like with a man, Yeah it work.
Speaker 5: Maybe that's the whole gay thing.
Speaker 1: Maybe you were gay. But also like with guys, like
Speaker 1: there's no learning anything. It's just like okay, like.
Speaker 5: Do the thing.
Speaker 1: It's like you're happy like people. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's so much more And I know that
Speaker 2: there's more to it than that. In a straight person
Speaker 2: would be like that's not true. All this other stuff happens,
Speaker 2: but the bottom line is he's he's getting off in
Speaker 2: no time exactly.
Speaker 1: Like with women, it's like there's endless possibilities and endless possibilities.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: Are you blushing yet, Melissa? No hot lot, your kids
Speaker 1: hiding upstairs.
Speaker 8: Virgineers around here are the dog So you know, tell
Speaker 8: me about a time both of you that you did
Speaker 8: feel all like feminine and like you felt like, Oh,
Speaker 8: I feel like I'm in my.
Speaker 2: Feminine I'm in my feminine energy and I like it
Speaker 2: right now.
Speaker 1: Related to sex, no, just life recently anytime. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've been very emotional a lot recently, and that to
Speaker 1: me feels like the feminine side of me. Okay, and
Speaker 1: I although it can be really hard to be so emotional, like,
Speaker 1: not everybody can access that part of themselves. For me,
Speaker 1: it just happens like without my consent. I just I mean,
Speaker 1: I just like feel things really deeply. But I love
Speaker 1: that about myself too, And to me that feels like
Speaker 1: a very feminine part of me. Is that I'm very
Speaker 1: in tune with my emotions and I feel them really
Speaker 1: deeply and it helps me move through them. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: I mean not that I've not that I'm like, yay,
Speaker 1: be super emotional, like that's the act of it is
Speaker 1: not necessarily fun or I forget how you asked the question.
Speaker 1: But definitely I can recognize that that is like part
Speaker 1: of my femininity, and I love that about myself.
Speaker 2: I don't like I do. I said that to you
Speaker 2: the other day. I was like, I don't know why
Speaker 2: I don't cry. Yeah, like I wish I did. I
Speaker 2: think it would be better for me. I said it
Speaker 2: in therapy today. I was like, I never get I
Speaker 2: don't just like start crying even though I'm sad.
Speaker 3: You tried my trick of watching sad movies, but is
Speaker 3: that going.
Speaker 2: To be the same release as if I'm crying. I mean,
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, I have cried, but I will say,
Speaker 2: this particular weekend, just let it flow. This particular weekend,
Speaker 2: three different women cried.
Speaker 1: To me, three three, And when one of them is
Speaker 1: sitting in three different women and one of them, I
Speaker 1: looked at her and I said, I can't. I can't
Speaker 1: have two women crying here at the same time.
Speaker 2: So everybody can cry.
Speaker 1: So I literally am like, what's wrong with me? I've
Speaker 1: got to get some tears worked out.
Speaker 5: It's because you can't.
Speaker 1: It's I know it sub else they just bring it.
Speaker 1: But it's like women, it's like part of the balance
Speaker 1: of friendship too, is like there can be like feminine
Speaker 1: femininity and masculinity and friendships and you can. It's I
Speaker 1: think really important to have that balance in like all
Speaker 1: the relationships in your life because if you just if
Speaker 1: it's just everybody pouring out their emotions, nobody can be
Speaker 1: the supportive person. I mean, I've I know, that's what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. But like during that time, I was able
Speaker 1: to be like more of a steady You were very
Speaker 1: I cry. Yes, okay, you did you know how to cry?
Speaker 1: I can do it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean sometimes it can be if you are
Speaker 3: a metation. I don't know that can keep you from crying.
Speaker 3: That happened to me last summer. Yeah, so yeah, I
Speaker 3: had such a block and I stopped taking the medication
Speaker 3: for it because I was just like, I can't live.
Speaker 5: Like this because it's like you can feel it in
Speaker 5: your body and I don't know I need the release.
Speaker 3: But I went for years of my life, like when
Speaker 3: I was married without crying at all, and then when
Speaker 3: I started to realize everything about my sexuality, I was
Speaker 3: like crying constantly.
Speaker 1: Same same. I feel like I lived a decade I
Speaker 1: mean even more than that of my life at like
Speaker 1: a very even keel as far as emotions, and that
Speaker 1: was safe for a while. And now the last four
Speaker 1: or five years, I have felt like the highest highs
Speaker 1: and the lowest lows.
Speaker 2: I've been there for some of the highest and they're
Speaker 2: really fun. Melissa, your highs are ten out of ten.
Speaker 1: I want to go back to the question because Melissa
Speaker 1: hasn't answered it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when if you felt feminine, and then mine's going
Speaker 2: to be so off the chain.
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess I kind of have to piggyback
Speaker 3: off of Robin's because that's probably when I feel the most.
Speaker 5: Is like, because I can be.
Speaker 3: Emotional, I do hide it a lot from people, but
Speaker 3: I'm one of those people that like it builds up
Speaker 3: and I just can't stand it anymore.
Speaker 5: That's probably the thing that comes to mind.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to think otherwise of like, like, because I
Speaker 3: don't feel like I lately I've like dressed feminine at all,
Speaker 3: It's kind of answering.
Speaker 1: Mine my laundry.
Speaker 2: I was letting all my laundry like build up because
Speaker 2: I'm going on vacation tomorrow and so I'm going to
Speaker 2: do like one have it already, so I was down
Speaker 2: to like barely in the underwear left. And so I
Speaker 2: ended up last night getting in bed after my shower
Speaker 2: and like a pretty sexy pair of girly.
Speaker 1: Underwear and like a white like a white V neck.
Speaker 2: And I thought, for a minute, I'm like, I'm kind
Speaker 2: of like a sexy woman right now, like I'm not,
Speaker 2: I'm not my normal mask.
Speaker 1: Like getting in bed with my big socks in my
Speaker 1: big old way.
Speaker 2: Literally, I looked in the pot and I was having
Speaker 2: a really for some reason, like very flat stomach, good
Speaker 2: body day.
Speaker 1: So then I was like, I don't and that doesn't
Speaker 1: always happen.
Speaker 2: So I was also just like in these great underwear,
Speaker 2: and I sort of felt like feeling yourself.
Speaker 1: I was feeling like I need a I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't need a man, but I was feeling girly. The
Speaker 1: real question is you sleep with clothes on.
Speaker 2: I sleep with a T shirt, and I take my
Speaker 2: underwear off after about thirty to forty five minutes. It
Speaker 2: feels good to me to have socks and underwear on.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is the thing.
Speaker 2: I get in bed with socks and underwear and then
Speaker 2: I allow myself the joy of then taking them off
Speaker 2: because then it's like cold sheet on me.
Speaker 1: Is it because you're cold getting into your bed so
Speaker 1: you need the layers?
Speaker 2: No, it's joy I know I'm gonna get in thirty minutes. Yeah,
Speaker 2: when you take the socks off and then your feet
Speaker 2: are like stretched out, I'm like, good sheets.
Speaker 1: Wow, delayed gratification. It's delayed. God. Do I want one
Speaker 1: marshmallow now or two later? I'll take two later. Interesting concept. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you guys, I take it.
Speaker 5: I'm always sleeping in underwear and a T shirt at least.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Same. I that was my pajama go to for
Speaker 1: the first thirty five years of my life, give or take,
Speaker 1: but not anymore. Now you're naked. It's nothing now with
Speaker 1: the kids. I don't care about the kids, but so liberating. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love it so much.
Speaker 5: When back kids.
Speaker 3: I think that's why I got in the habit of it,
Speaker 3: is because I'm like, you never know when they're.
Speaker 5: Coming in, or they might need something, or I have
Speaker 5: to jump out of it.
Speaker 1: I think I might have it easier because I have
Speaker 1: only girls, so and there's they're young enough that they're
Speaker 1: they don't care. And actually my middle child now likes
Speaker 1: to sleep naked every once in a while because I do,
Speaker 1: so she like, I want to sleep naked, Like why
Speaker 1: do I have to wear clothes? Yeah, I'm girl, yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah. I mean I think friends of other friends
Speaker 1: of mine who have boys, it's like they were forced
Speaker 1: to start wearing clothes again after their kid reached a
Speaker 1: certain age because of that, because it's like awkward now,
Speaker 1: But I don't know. For me, I so far, at least,
Speaker 1: it's been fine, trusting, and it's very liberating. The only
Speaker 1: time I wear clothes to go to bed is in
Speaker 1: the middle of winter and I'm freezing, but I always
Speaker 1: take it off, like once I warm up under the sheets.
Speaker 5: I want to be like warm.
Speaker 1: I like to be cool. I need to get in
Speaker 1: my bed cool.
Speaker 2: Do you think though, that like part of that wearing
Speaker 2: clothes when you're married, because I do remember, like being
Speaker 2: very careful not to turn him on, like whatever it takes,
Speaker 2: Like if I if I would take my underwear off,
Speaker 2: I would know a thousand percent.
Speaker 1: I mean, for me, it was like a part of
Speaker 1: my like undoing of everything was sleeping naked for the
Speaker 1: first time like a year probably posts separating and being like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this feels amazing. Hell, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like so liberate. I'm gonna try it tonight. You should
Speaker 1: worried about a fire, right Melissa, You're so doom and gloom.
Speaker 5: But wait, if you.
Speaker 2: Get a fire, though, why couldn't you Oh, because you
Speaker 2: have to run outside naked?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you can't grab a T shirt on
Speaker 1: your way out because I have.
Speaker 5: To go in my bathroom, in the closet, find a teacher.
Speaker 1: Okay, mine's on the way. I mean I could easily,
Speaker 1: you guys tat them.
Speaker 2: Had to fire a couple of years ago in her building.
Speaker 2: Her walk up, okay, and she's on the eighth floor.
Speaker 2: But there was a fire, a real fire, so when
Speaker 2: she opened the door, it was like smoke. So she
Speaker 2: had to use the fire escape like you see in Friends,
Speaker 2: you know, when they sat out on the fire escape,
Speaker 2: so they had to drop the thing.
Speaker 1: But she was in a T shirt, underwear, no shoes
Speaker 1: and had her her cats and her roommate climbing down
Speaker 1: the fucking fire escape.
Speaker 2: She's like, I'm in New York City in the East Village, barefoot,
Speaker 2: like it just like krawlic clawing all over her terrified, terrified, terrified.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: See, if she would have been naked. What would she
Speaker 1: have done? I mean, I live on a dead end street.
Speaker 1: I can go in my backyard or my front yard.
Speaker 1: Nobody's gonna see me, and who the fuck cares.
Speaker 5: What the fire truck shows up?
Speaker 1: But so T shirts underwear though, But yeah, maybe you
Speaker 1: know what, maybe I'll have a stash somewhere away from
Speaker 1: my house that I have a go to place like that.
Speaker 1: I have a secret stash.
Speaker 5: A T shirt, a safety ladder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, true, do you? Of course you do? Melissa? Are
Speaker 1: you a prepper?
Speaker 3: I'm not a prepper, though I do have a lot
Speaker 3: of like extra water on hand just in case.
Speaker 1: What do you call the bag that they like you
Speaker 1: grab a go bag? Go? Yeah, go back. It's a
Speaker 1: go bag. Oh I like that.
Speaker 3: I did have one of those when I lived in Florida,
Speaker 3: but that was also.
Speaker 1: Like hurricane Okay, so yeah, with.
Speaker 5: Hurricanes you can be a little bit more prepared.
Speaker 1: I guess I think you have time to get dressed.
Speaker 1: I am going to try to.
Speaker 2: I'll try tonight for the sleeping and see what happens.
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if my shoulders will feel exposed.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm fully underburrowed under the sheets. Other than
Speaker 1: my head and I have an eyemass on, so there's
Speaker 1: not a lot of skin hanging out. Yeah, all underneath protected.
Speaker 5: And what about three pillows?
Speaker 1: I have a ship ton of pillows. I know. It's
Speaker 1: really a problem. Huge.
Speaker 5: It can be a probe with people. And it's like
Speaker 5: there's one pillow in the bed.
Speaker 1: That's not I'm not sleeping. Red flag, red flag, red flag.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: Also, I find you a girl who is good with
Speaker 1: only one pillow because I'm taking the rest. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: that's what robin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, put that on your list of things.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 2: I did date someone who had who wore sweat, like
Speaker 2: would start the night in sweats.
Speaker 1: And I was like, this is annoying.
Speaker 2: Like this isn't I didn't go through all this to
Speaker 2: come out and be here sets on.
Speaker 1: We need to be skinned to skin. Take your pants off.
Speaker 1: If you're going to stay here, take your pants, take
Speaker 1: your pants off, and let me have all the pillows.
Speaker 3: Here's the masculine energy, exactly.
Speaker 1: But switching it up, I like to be the little
Speaker 1: spoon at night that surprises me for ten minutes and
Speaker 1: then go about your way. Wait a minute, in the morning,
Speaker 1: I'm going to spoon you Okay, I like to do that.
Speaker 1: Wait yeah, wait, you want to be the little spoon.
Speaker 1: H Okay. I don't want my pillows. I want to
Speaker 1: be able to hold my pillows, but I want someone
Speaker 1: to hold me. Why can't you hold her instead of
Speaker 1: the pillows? Hope me? Because because I want to be held.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, trying not to judge. Beautiful You are a
Speaker 2: beautiful Oh I sound like unless I can't even picture
Speaker 2: you being held, this is getting weird.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was. That has been surprising in circumstances where
Speaker 1: they're like huh, but you're like present as like masculine whatever,
Speaker 1: But then you want to want to be held. Do
Speaker 1: they want to go the whole spoon too, No, they
Speaker 1: want to be the big spoon. So it like works
Speaker 1: out yin yang exactly. Okay, it may have taken a
Speaker 1: little convincing, but you know it's worth it. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3: I can't get comfortable being the big spoon, Like I
Speaker 3: don't know where.
Speaker 1: The same of my arm I get hot, Like if
Speaker 1: they give a lot of heat.
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be all night. It's just like
Speaker 2: a short term commitment.
Speaker 1: I mean add that to my hinch profile must be
Speaker 1: comfortable being the big spoon.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Okay, that actually, really, I'm glad I
Speaker 2: know this about you.
Speaker 1: I did not know this before.
Speaker 2: You are shocking Melissa that I would never have thought. Yep, okay,
Speaker 2: because I'm thinking back to people you've dated and.
Speaker 1: Now I'm like trying to picture them behind you, and
Speaker 1: I can't.
Speaker 5: Spoon.
Speaker 1: They're too little. Nope, nope, nope nope. How long does
Speaker 1: the holding last? Not that long? Ten minutes? Okay? Who
Speaker 1: pushes away first? I don't know, Okay, so it's probably
Speaker 1: depends on the day. How about you.
Speaker 5: If I'm little spoon, then I'm not moving.
Speaker 1: Right, no, yes, so they move when they get comfortable,
Speaker 1: fully comfortable and relaxed with my body pillow and my
Speaker 1: human and my human. And that's another that's another benefit
Speaker 1: of being a little spoon is I'm not moving.
Speaker 2: No, okay, So you just stay and they get tired
Speaker 2: of holding you and they rush away.
Speaker 1: And that's where I feel so good in my feminine.
Speaker 2: Yeah that okay, that is your feminine. That's that's the question. Okay,
Speaker 2: that's one of the moments where I feel so good
Speaker 2: in my feminine. That is very feminine. Actually bringing on yeah, all.
Speaker 1: Right, guys, we'll have we solved the problem. Mask.
Speaker 5: I think I think we understand there's a balance here.
Speaker 1: The point is it's fluid and there doesn't have It
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be one way or the other. It
Speaker 1: can be everything, all right.
Speaker 5: Guys can have all the things.
Speaker 1: You can have it all. Guys, you can have it all.
Speaker 1: None of us do, but you guys can.
Speaker 2: We haven't seemed to get there yet, but you guys can.
Speaker 1: Have it all.
Speaker 5: Don't worry about us.
Speaker 2: On that note, these two are gonna start crying. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna wrap this thing right, all right, my guys.
Speaker 5: I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast. Rate us
Speaker 5: and write a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Speaker 1: We'd love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story.
Speaker 2: Email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: That's Melissa M. E. L I. S A and Ali
Speaker 1: A L. L I at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Or follow us on Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles