WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them Geesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:40.200 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 7 00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:45.759 The Crack City Strangler The Homicides of serial killer Benjamin 8 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:50.039 Atkins offers a chilling, in depth account of the horrifying 9 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:54.079 crimes committed by one of America's most notorious serial killers. 10 00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:01.000 Award winning journalists VR Bates delves into the twisted life 11 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:05.200 of Benjamin Tony Atkins, whose reign of terror in Detroit 12 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:08.680 spanned less than a year in the early nineteen nineties. 13 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:14.359 Known for targeting vulnerable women in Detroit's most dangerous neighborhoods, 14 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:19.680 Atkins attacked at least twelve women, killing eleven along a 15 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:23.200 mile and a half stretch of Woodward Avenue, one of 16 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:29.760 the city's most iconic streets. Akins' crimes were brutal and relentless, 17 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:33.040 leaving victims abandoned in the dark corners of the Cast 18 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:38.280 Corridor and Highland Park. Only when the lone survivor of 19 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:42.439 his horrific spree came forward did law enforcement begin to 20 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:47.200 connect the dots and ultimately capture the monster behind the 21 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:52.519 killings through meticulous research. In this second book, in her 22 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:57.120 murders in the Motor City series, Bates uncovers the complex 23 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:02.200 web of motivation, abuse, and desperation that led Atkins to 24 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:07.200 target sex workers, while also exploring the societal pressures and 25 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:12.919 systemic neglect that shaped his dark path. A poignant look 26 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:17.199 at a killer psychology, Baits invites readers to understand how 27 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:21.919 this troubled life could give rise to such monstrous behavior. 28 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:25.759 The book that we're featuring this evening is The Crack 29 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:31.439 City Strangler, The Homicides of serial killer Benjamin Atkins, with 30 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:37.919 my special guest, journalist and author br Baits. Welcome to 31 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:40.280 the program. Welcome back to the program, and thank you 32 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:43.159 very much for this interview, bur Baits. 33 00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:45.840 Thank you for having me back. 34 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:51.479 On Congratulations on this latest book, The Crack City Strangler. 35 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:56.159 Yes, yes, thank you. It's been a labor of love 36 00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:59.039 in some ways and I'm glad to see it released. 37 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:03.000 Now. First question, how did you come to be involved 38 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:05.639 in this book project? Tell us about the genesis of 39 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:06.199 this book. 40 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:10.479 This book really followed from the first book I did, 41 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:13.680 and the Murders and the Motor City series. I researched 42 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:16.159 the case of John Eric Armstrong for the first book, 43 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:19.360 The Baby Doll serial Killer, and that really came from 44 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:24.319 meeting one of the people who had worked the case 45 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:27.800 back in the day, back in the nineteen nineties early 46 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:30.919 two thousands, doctor Jerald Cliff. He had always thought that 47 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:33.000 the case would make a good book project. So we 48 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:36.280 have a mutual friend who introduced us, and then the 49 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:40.719 collaboration went from there. And I enjoyed the research so much. 50 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:44.879 I'm really a big follower of true crime on television, 51 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:48.400 and so I really enjoyed this research because I felt 52 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:51.759 like it returned me to my journalism, roots, to my 53 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:55.000 newspaper roots, for one thing. But I just found it 54 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:58.439 so fascinating. And so when I finished that book, I 55 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.199 wanted to work on another. And when you talk about 56 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:06.439 Detroit serial killers, Armstrong is a big one, but this one, 57 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:09.639 the subject of the second book is another well known 58 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:11.000 Detroit cereal. 59 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:15.039 Give us the setting in nineteen ninety one, Detroit and 60 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:18.319 Highland Park and the state of the city at that time. 61 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:20.160 As you write in this book. 62 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:23.639 Well, Detroit has added its ups and downs. Detroit is 63 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:25.800 doing great nowadays. If you go to the city, if 64 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:28.199 you go to downtown, it's like a whole different city. 65 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:32.079 I live there in the latter nineteen nineties, from nineteen 66 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:35.680 ninety five to two thousand and two or so, and 67 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:37.920 I saw a lot of changes in the downtown at 68 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.560 that point. And that was a few years after this 69 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:45.120 case took place. But at the time, Detroit was really 70 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:47.800 not doing well. If you went through downtown on a 71 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:50.879 Sunday morning, like I often did, because living there, I'd 72 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:54.000 get out and walk like early on the weekends, and 73 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:56.399 it was like a ghost town. There was no one around. 74 00:04:56.759 --> 00:05:01.680 Definitely a lot of economic troubles, lot of economic depression, 75 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:04.519 and so not a very pretty place. 76 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:10.519 You take us to a central figure in the story, 77 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:15.319 and her name is Darlene Saunders, and she knew a 78 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:18.879 person as Tony. She had known him for say, four 79 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:23.319 years beforehand, but she knew him as Tony in the 80 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:27.319 area around Woodward Avenue. So tell us a little bit 81 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:31.519 about Darlene Saunders, how she ends up on the streets 82 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:35.040 at this time. Tell us a little bit about Darlene Saunders. 83 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:39.000 Yeah, Darlene, she had a family, she had kids, she 84 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:43.079 had been married, but she did have an addiction to 85 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:47.360 drugs and she was very very honest about that later 86 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:53.040 on after this case was being investigated, And so she 87 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:57.000 spent a lot of time on the street. And there 88 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:00.439 was one particular night that she was out walking and 89 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:04.360 she would go to and fro here and there, and yeah, 90 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:06.759 she knew this guy named Tony. She had seen him 91 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:09.680 around a lot. They even smoked together before, and they 92 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:12.240 went to some of the same crack houses to make 93 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:15.639 their purchases. And so there was one night that she 94 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:19.160 saw him and he said, Hey, I've got something to smoke, 95 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:21.720 you want to go smoke? And it was a night 96 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:24.399 like any other night. There was nothing unusual about it. 97 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:28.959 And there was nothing about Tony that gave Darlene any 98 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:34.040 feeling like there was any danger. This was just a 99 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:36.600 guy that she saw around that everybody seemed to know. 100 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:40.160 He was part of the landscape of Woodward Avenue in Detroit. 101 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:43.839 And this is where the story takes place. And so 102 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:47.560 they went together to an abandoned structure. It actually used 103 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:50.240 to be a Howard Johnson's restaurant. It was right next 104 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:53.639 to a motel called the Monterey, which was very well 105 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:56.560 known in the area and was quite the hotel back 106 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:59.279 in the day, maybe the nineteen fifties nineteen sixties. It 107 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.600 was a great place and a lot of people came 108 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:06.079 to stay there. But over time it I think the 109 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:10.319 story was it reverted to the city for back taxes 110 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:14.079 or unpaid utility, something to that effect. It became abandoned, 111 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:17.800 it changed ownership, and somebody tried to make a homeless 112 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:20.319 shelter out of it at one time and that didn't fly. 113 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:23.519 But it was an empty structure. And so it was 114 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:27.959 sitting there on Woodward Avenue, which is essentially Detroit's main 115 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:31.560 street and Highland Park's main street, and so sitting there 116 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:33.800 right in the center of town, and there was a 117 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:37.199 Howard Johnson's restaurant also abandoned as part of it, on 118 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:41.319 the same property, and so Darlene and Tony went over 119 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.079 and they were sitting outside, like right probably near the 120 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:49.279 entrance of the restaurant, and they were going to smoke, 121 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:52.560 but Tony suggested, you know, it's a little breezy out here, 122 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:57.160 let's go inside. And so they went inside, and that's 123 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:02.879 really when things went sideway. He had other things on 124 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:07.079 his mind than getting high, and so he started to 125 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:12.160 assault Darlene. She tried to fight him off. He actually 126 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:16.600 raped her, and then at one point in the scuffle, 127 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:21.040 he was trying to drag her deeper into the building, 128 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:23.879 like down to the basement, and she knew that that 129 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:26.600 was really bad news, and so she fought him off 130 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.079 even more. She was able to, I guess, knock him 131 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:32.480 off his feet, kick him or whatever to get him 132 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:34.080 off his feet so that she could get a few 133 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:36.480 steps out the door. And at that point she's yelling 134 00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:41.159 and screaming, and someone nearby heard her, and that man 135 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:43.799 yelled back, Hey, where are you at? I hear you? 136 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:47.600 Where you at? And Atkins was coming out after her. 137 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:51.240 He was right behind her out the door of this restaurant, 138 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:53.559 and then he heard the other voice, and so it 139 00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:55.919 was enough to make him run off. And that's what 140 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:59.480 really saved Darlene's life. Well, a combination of things, but 141 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:03.799 that certainly helped immensely in ending the assault and saving 142 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:06.000 her life. 143 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:09.879 Now, you're right, does she report this incident to police? 144 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:11.919 And if not, why not? 145 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:18.279 Yeah, she thought about it, but when you are on 146 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:23.240 the street, and she was admittedly not just doing drugs 147 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:27.000 on the street, but she was working prostitution, and so 148 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:29.000 she was trying to get extra money. She was trying 149 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:32.360 to buy drugs. She's part of that culture, and a 150 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:35.039 lot of females who are in that culture will tell 151 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:38.519 you that going to the police really doesn't help things 152 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:42.759 for them. Oftentimes the police do not believe them, and 153 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:47.080 oftentimes they won't really investigate anything even if they do 154 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:52.200 believe the story. So she considered it, but she let 155 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.200 it go and she did not report it at that time. 156 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:58.879 This is in the fall nineteen ninety one, and she 157 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:03.960 would see Tony around town still. She even ran into 158 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:07.440 him at a crackhouse not long after that, and she 159 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:09.519 asked him. He was standing at the door of this 160 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.720 crack house and she was about to go in, and 161 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:13.960 he was holding the door for her to go in, 162 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:17.159 and she said, Tony, why did you do that? And 163 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:19.480 he said, I don't want to talk about it. And 164 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:23.799 it was such an eerie, chilling encounter, but it did 165 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:27.440 not do anything to help how she felt about being 166 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:32.320 assaulted by him. So as time went on, she did 167 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:36.080 decide to make a report to police. She thought about 168 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:38.080 it and thought about it, and then of course as 169 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:40.720 the case progressed, it was in the news. And that's 170 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:44.200 really what drove her to the police in March to 171 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:48.519 file a report. Is when people realize that police realized 172 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:51.080 there was a serial killer in Detroit and Highland Park 173 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.000 and three women were found on the same day at 174 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:57.879 the Monterey Motel. And so at that point Darlene is like, 175 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:01.639 I think that could be Tony. So she went to 176 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.759 the police in March, but unfortunately, they took a report, 177 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:08.759 they listened to her, they logged it, but then nothing 178 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:12.320 came of it. It was basically just a dead report 179 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:16.039 until months later when some phone calls and some more 180 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:21.200 conversations finally caused police to bring her into the station 181 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:25.919 and really hear her story. So that's said because that 182 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.480 could have if it was better investigated at the time, 183 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:30.120 it could have saved some lives. 184 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:34.919 Well, let's go back now, because you now introduce some 185 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:39.399 of the characters that go missing and encounter this mysterious 186 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:44.840 Tony person. Patricia Cannon George last seen by her family 187 00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:49.320 around Thanksgiving November twenty eighth, nineteen ninety one. She was 188 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:52.440 one of eight siblings and she went by the name 189 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:57.720 pat You provide the account of this serial killer talking 190 00:11:57.759 --> 00:12:01.279 about how he lured this woman, Tricia Cannon George to 191 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:05.519 her death. Tell us about some of the things the 192 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.919 ruse he uses. We talked about Darlene Saunders. What was 193 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:13.919 the ruse according to the serial killer to lure Patricia 194 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:15.799 Cannon George to her death? 195 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:22.200 It was all about drugs. Every one of these women 196 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:28.720 who he encountered, who he assaulted, they were all working 197 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:32.879 prostitution and they were all doing drugs. They were all 198 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.440 basically addicted to drugs. And for a lot of these 199 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:37.840 women living at risk on the street, that is what 200 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.639 puts them out on the street is an addiction to drugs, 201 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:44.519 and so they're trying to get money to get their drugs. 202 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:49.879 And so, just like with Darlene, it's just really casual. Hey, 203 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:52.399 you know, I got something to smoke. Let's go smoke. 204 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:55.840 Let's go party. Sometimes it was an invitation to have sex, 205 00:12:56.240 --> 00:13:00.600 but it was always involving drugs. It was all like, 206 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:03.240 I've got this, I know you want to smoke some 207 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:07.120 so let's go. Let's go smoke. So that's the way 208 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:11.159 it was with Patricia Cannon George as well, and then 209 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.159 things escalated from there. 210 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:21.000 You introduced Valerie Brown, Chalk again. Her family reported her 211 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:24.039 missing at some point. Tell us about Valerie Brown Chalk 212 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:26.159 and her family's search for her. 213 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:33.080 Yeah, she was one that her family. You know, I've 214 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:38.200 heard prostitutes called the missing missing, Like when a female 215 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:43.039 who's working doing sex work on the street comes up missing, 216 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:45.519 she's the missing missing And I heard that on a 217 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:49.200 true crime TV special one time, and really it addresses 218 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.759 the idea that before she ever really disappears, she's missing 219 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:55.240 from her family too. And that's how a lot of 220 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:59.080 these family members feel about their loved one who's on 221 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.200 the street, is that, Okay, I never see her. And 222 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:05.519 you know, a lot of the time when the female does, 223 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:09.600 like if something like this does happen, they don't even 224 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:11.720 realize it for a while. The police go to question 225 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:13.720 and them it's like, okay, I last saw her on 226 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:16.200 the seventh or wasn't the tenth, And you know, it's 227 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:20.399 really hard to even pinpoint when she actually disappeared, which 228 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:25.480 is very sad. But for Valerie Brown Chalk, her family 229 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.720 intensely missed her and knew right away when she was gone. 230 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.679 She was very much loved. She had grown up in 231 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.679 a good family, a nuclear family. She went to church. 232 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:40.159 She sang in the choir. She had a beautiful voice, 233 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:43.879 her son told me. And she had kids, and so 234 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:47.879 she was definitely missing that her family when she came 235 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:50.240 up missing. This was the fall nineteen ninety one too. 236 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:55.039 She probably is the second person killed by Tony, the 237 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:59.399 third or fourth person attacked, depending on how you count it. 238 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:04.200 When she came up missing, it was also like late 239 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:08.720 November early December, and they put up flyers all over town. 240 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.559 They made a big deal out of it. And then 241 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:15.960 later on in the case when women started being found 242 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:21.440 and unidentified, because these females do not exactly carry a 243 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:25.519 driver's license and generally they have to be identified. Later, 244 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:29.840 when these females started being found, Valerie's family came to 245 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.000 the police station. You know, I want to know if 246 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:35.639 this might be Valerie, and so her prints were run 247 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:38.320 a number of times to try to id her. But 248 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:41.440 it wasn't until several weeks later when she actually was 249 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:43.440 found in id positively. 250 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.919 Well, let's explain before we introduced another victim, Vicky and Truelove. 251 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:55.279 But let's explain how the bodies were discovered at the 252 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:56.559 Monterey Hotel. 253 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.840 There was it seemed to be a familiar refrain in 254 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:06.879 this case that okay, all of the women involved in 255 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:11.759 this case were found in abandoned structure, abandoned houses or 256 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:16.720 buildings of some kind, and often they were found because 257 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:21.320 someone went in looking for something to fix the toilet 258 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.879 at their house, or look, there were scrappers. They basically 259 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:28.759 were scrappers going into these buildings, and that tended to 260 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:32.240 be often how these women were found. And that was 261 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.720 the case with the Monterey Motel, is that someone went 262 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:37.679 into the motel. It was well known to be abandoned 263 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:40.639 and it was used quite a lot actually, because there 264 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:44.600 was just trash everywhere all through the motel, every room. 265 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.639 This was a two story motel with like two wings 266 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:51.799 or two buildings, I guess you would say, and it 267 00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:55.120 had quite a few rooms in it and they were 268 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:57.799 all trashed, and people were coming and going all the 269 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:02.559 time to do drugs and to have sex or to 270 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.359 stay the night. Homeless people slept there. In fact, Tony 271 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:09.480 slept there quite a few times. So a scrapper came 272 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:13.359 in and was looking for parts and went into the 273 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:17.039 bathroom of one of the rooms and saw what looked 274 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:22.839 like a part of a human being, and so ran out, 275 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:27.400 got the police the police were called. Highland Park Public 276 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.960 Safety responded to the call and it was in the 277 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:36.000 afternoon on February seventeenth and nineteen ninety two, and so 278 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:39.720 they arrived and you know, they started processing the scene. 279 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.079 They called in their evidence text, yes, we do have 280 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:44.839 a dead body here, and then they realized, you know, 281 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:49.519 maybe we should look around in the motel. And so 282 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.240 sure enough they did a sweep of the motel and 283 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:56.039 they found two other females in two other rooms, again 284 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.680 in the bathroom. All three women left in the shower 285 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:04.759 stuff of the bathroom of a room, but at different times. 286 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:07.640 It was pretty clear they were killed at different times, 287 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:12.279 but they were fairly decomposed. And so that really blew 288 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:16.799 this case wide open because a few other females had 289 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:20.240 been found up to that point, a couple other There 290 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:25.680 was two people found in December, there was one or 291 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:28.319 two I think two in January. So two in December, 292 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:32.960 two in January, and then in February. They had to admit, okay, 293 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.240 we've got a serial killer here, because this is the 294 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:39.279 same mo this is the same demographic of female victim, 295 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:44.240 same victimology every time. And the case crossed between Detroit 296 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.200 and Highland Park and then Detroit and Highland Park really 297 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:51.160 realized they had been working on the same case for 298 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:55.319 a couple months now. So, yeah, that was the Monterey Motel. 299 00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:57.279 It was a big, a big event. 300 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:03.000 In this case, you've met the mo but we haven't 301 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:06.920 talked about that. In that case, there is very very 302 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:12.359 similar similarities in as far as how the bodies were found, 303 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:15.440 how the victims were found. They were bound behind their back, 304 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:19.799 but he also put one of their socks most times 305 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:23.599 in their mouth, then secured that sock as a gag 306 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:28.680 with either torn shirt or sweater material that he have 307 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:31.759 or he'd find, and placed that around her head to 308 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:37.759 secure that gag. Also, they were strangled affixiation through strangulation 309 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.279 and so. But what they found in many of these 310 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:46.400 scenes was initially frustrating them was that there was a 311 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:51.880 lot of evidence among potential debris or so there was 312 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:53.880 a lot that they had to sort through. They didn't 313 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:57.519 know what was relevant evidence in those crime scenes, but 314 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:01.599 they had all those similar characteristics which once they did 315 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:04.039 put their head together. And you do write about the 316 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:11.039 again constant theme I think that police don't cooperate between jurisdictions. 317 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:17.279 So tell us about the Highland Park Public Safety and 318 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:22.319 also the Detroit Police Department. And also how this Paul 319 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.720 Lindsay from the FBI gets involved in this case. 320 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:31.960 M Highland Park Public Safety. The Highland Park had its 321 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:36.319 own struggles over the years, its own financial difficulties. One 322 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:40.400 time it was the headquarters of Chrysler, and Henry Ford 323 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:43.680 built a big plant there that produced the Model T. 324 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.640 So it grew up with the auto industry and it 325 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:52.880 flourished through the thirties, forties, fifties, but then Chrysler left. 326 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:57.400 Later Henry Ford shut that plant down, and so it 327 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:01.079 came down when the auto industry left too, and so 328 00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:07.039 Highland Park was definitely financially struggling. And their fire and 329 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:11.279 safety at that point had been combined into one department. 330 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:14.680 And it wasn't always that way. They used to have 331 00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:18.240 separate police and fire departments, but at that time, in 332 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:20.640 nineteen ninety one and nineteen ninety two, it was a 333 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:25.079 combined department and it had oh gosh, I think that 334 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:29.799 I spoke with John Maddox, who was the director of 335 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:31.799 Highland Park Public Safety at the time, and I think 336 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:34.240 what he told me is they had ninety two people, 337 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:39.920 ninety two staff members. But when they got a murder. 338 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:43.519 It was big. They were a small town and it 339 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:46.440 in some ways it felt like a small town. Darling's 340 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:49.440 son Rashat, even told me that that, yeah, it was 341 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:52.759 like a small town, like everybody kind of knew everybody else. 342 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.319 And when you're from Highland Park, it is more of 343 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.400 a small town feel. And this town is only is 344 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.920 only about three or so square miles and it's centered 345 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:07.880 right on Woodward Avenue, which also runs right up through 346 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:10.279 the center of Detroit, and Highland Park is what they 347 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:14.480 call an enclave that is completely surrounded by the city 348 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:17.480 of Detroit, so it's a city within a city. But 349 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:22.000 the Highland Park Public Safety they first had found the 350 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:26.440 body of Debbie Friday in mid December nineteen ninety one, 351 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:30.480 and for them that was a big thing. Detroit at 352 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.720 that time, believe it or not, saw about six hundred 353 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:38.880 in some homicides in the year nineteen ninety one. Highland Park, 354 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:43.799 in contrast, would see about twenty nineteen or twenty homicides 355 00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:47.440 around that time nineteen ninety to nineteen ninety one to 356 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:51.960 nineteen ninety two, and so a dramatic difference. And so 357 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:59.119 they investigated their mid December find quite strenuously, and then 358 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:03.519 when it came to later December, and then in early January, 359 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:06.160 there were a couple more victims, but they were found 360 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:10.920 in Detroit, and so Detroit logged those crime scenes, but 361 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.119 perhaps did not approach them in the same way because 362 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:19.960 Detroit saw a lot of homicides. So after the start 363 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:24.880 of nineteen ninety two, then these women start they keep 364 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:28.000 showing up. There was another one in January. As I mentioned, 365 00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:31.920 the two jurisdictions still don't realize that this is a 366 00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:35.680 single perp who has killed all of these females. But 367 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:39.200 as you know, they do see the similarities. They see 368 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.359 the sock in the mouth. That is not every time, 369 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:45.680 but it's often he did that. He definitely gagged them, 370 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.119 and he definitely bound their hands behind them, and he 371 00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:53.119 strangled them. And so they were seeing the similarities in 372 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:57.799 these cases. But Hyland Park really felt it first, and 373 00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:03.000 their guys got together in public safety, they're detectives that 374 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:07.000 were investigating this case. They're like, you know, we got 375 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:08.680 to go to Detroit and we got to have a 376 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:10.440 meeting with them. We got to all sit down, we 377 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:12.599 got to share notes, because this is the same guy. 378 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:14.920 This has got to be the same guy, and so 379 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:19.720 they arranged a meeting. About six or seven officers between 380 00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:22.400 Detroit and Highland Park both got together and they had 381 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:28.000 a meeting. But the inspector they called that job position 382 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:30.640 and basically was the leadership of homicide at the time. 383 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:34.519 His job title was inspector. He was part of the meeting, 384 00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:36.880 but he said, no, this is not a serial killer. 385 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:40.960 This is not a serial killer. He pretty adamantly opposed 386 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:43.880 that idea that I was a serial killer. And so 387 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:47.759 the Highland Park public safety officers got pretty frustrated. They 388 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:50.839 came away from that meeting frustrated thinking, well, this didn't 389 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:54.200 help at all because we're not sharing notes, we're not 390 00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:58.000 sharing knowledge, we're not any closer to finding this guy 391 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.240 because they're not even willing to admit that as a 392 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:06.119 serial killer. And so time went on and eventually, through 393 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:11.240 some more conversations and some more maybe pressure than other 394 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:16.720 agencies were brought in as women continued to be discovered. 395 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:21.039 Then we had the Michigan State Police being pulled in. 396 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:24.160 We actually had the FBI, the Detroit office of the 397 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:27.599 FBI get pulled in. Even the Wayne County Sheriff's department 398 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:32.039 got pulled in. So Eventually, as this investigation went on 399 00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:36.400 in the ensuing months, it became an inner agency task force. 400 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:40.160 And that's what really helped helped the investigation. 401 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:46.480