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<v Speaker 1>With Dan Ray WBS Constance Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't know if you can still hear me,

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<v Speaker 2>but that is not a top Chicago White Sox team

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<v Speaker 2>they're playing tonight. This is a little discouraging.

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<v Speaker 3>And not only that, Dan, but the error bug is

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<v Speaker 3>biting the Red Sox again. What was supposed to be

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<v Speaker 3>a good defensive team so far has not shown that.

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<v Speaker 3>I think they've got about three errors already in this game.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm aware of that. You know there's a possibility I

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<v Speaker 2>may have to go in and help Korra manage this team,

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<v Speaker 2>and you couldn't do any You couldn't do any worse, Dan,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think. Well, certainly not tonight. Certainly not tonight.

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<v Speaker 2>But I mean I talked to him every once in

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<v Speaker 2>a while and try to explain some strategies to him.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think I may need to take a leave

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<v Speaker 2>of absence here for the station.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not where, it's not working, Dan.

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<v Speaker 2>Could you cover it, cover for me for a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of months while I get these guys back. I will,

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<v Speaker 2>I will, Okay, I would appreciate that. You know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not deserting Bez, but I have to do something for

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<v Speaker 2>the Red Sox, and you know you're a team You're

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<v Speaker 2>a team player, Dan. I'm a team player and I

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<v Speaker 2>want everybody to be a team player. That's exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about. Hell, you've read my mind, you know

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<v Speaker 2>me too. Well, thank you, my friend. I really appreciate

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<v Speaker 2>the support. You're welcome. Thankspellacher of the Red Sox would

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<v Speaker 2>love to have me there. Oh yeah, well probably not,

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<v Speaker 2>probably not, but we can dream anyway. Okay, we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to put the Red Sox aside for the moment. They

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<v Speaker 2>still have two more games with the White Sox so

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<v Speaker 2>they can win the series. I want to get to

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<v Speaker 2>a very serious topic. I spent this afternoon and early

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<v Speaker 2>this evening reading a book that was sent to me

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<v Speaker 2>by a good friend and somewhat of a colleague. Christopher J. Muse,

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<v Speaker 2>former Superior Court judged here in Massachusetts. Was on the

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<v Speaker 2>bench for about seventeen years, but before that practice as

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<v Speaker 2>a lawyer. In one of the most high profile cases,

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<v Speaker 2>that was a case involving Bobby Joe Leister. Many of

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<v Speaker 2>you in the audience are familiar with the case, but

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<v Speaker 2>for those of you who are not, I want to

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<v Speaker 2>welcome Chris Muse. I should say Judge Mws but I

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<v Speaker 2>feel I owe you. I know you well enough to say, Chris, Chris,

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<v Speaker 2>how are you tonight?

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<v Speaker 4>And please call me Chris. I love being a judge.

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<v Speaker 4>I retired. It means I can talk more freely and

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<v Speaker 4>I can make some extra money now, So Chris is

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<v Speaker 4>much better place for me at the age of seventy plus.

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<v Speaker 2>So right, I'm still trying to figure out how to

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<v Speaker 2>make extra money. But I talk freely every night. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's the one thing.

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<v Speaker 4>You would have, the silence you never had, the silence

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<v Speaker 4>I had. But I, first of all, I want to

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<v Speaker 4>thank you so much for inviting me to speak with

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<v Speaker 4>you into your audience. You know, well you know how

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<v Speaker 4>important it was to me and my family, and as

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<v Speaker 4>you know, and I appreciate this fact, it was so

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<v Speaker 4>important to the Boston community at Lodge. So it's a

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<v Speaker 4>thrill for me to be here with you tonight.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the title is interesting. We will use the title

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<v Speaker 2>as the gateway to the to the conversation. The title

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<v Speaker 2>Justice undergd the the subtitle how Faith, Hope and Charity

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<v Speaker 2>freed an innocent man and help save a thousand lives.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll get into the subtitle, but the title Justice under

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<v Speaker 2>God actually comes from your high school, Boston College High School,

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<v Speaker 2>which of course was the sworn enemy of my high school,

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<v Speaker 2>Boston Latin School back in our days in high school.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, and and and and I want to let you

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<v Speaker 4>know that that we have Rob Prochbaut right now with

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<v Speaker 4>you and me in respect of what with the Eagles

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<v Speaker 4>and you guys were the what we were the wolf pack?

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<v Speaker 4>Wolf pack. That's it shouldn't be. I was there for

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<v Speaker 4>three years. I shouldn't forget those things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, oh, so you shot you, you talked, you

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<v Speaker 2>took the short course seventh, eighth, and ninth grades.

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<v Speaker 4>No, no, I talked you for three years.

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<v Speaker 2>I believe.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, they called me a junior master. I mean that's yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>It was very dated. It was great, Oh it was.

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<v Speaker 2>It was very dated, even for the day. It was

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<v Speaker 2>very dated. So justice under God is a phrase that

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<v Speaker 2>emanates from BC High School. It's called it's short for jug.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, you have friends at BC High that and and

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<v Speaker 4>they were They were probably of not bad character, but

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<v Speaker 4>sometimes mischievous, and Judge would be called detention and discipline

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<v Speaker 4>for any any of the kids at BC HID that

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<v Speaker 4>got out of one. In fact, it was a system

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<v Speaker 4>JUG for just about every Jesuit high school on the

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<v Speaker 4>East Coast, and it was an acronym for justice under God.

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<v Speaker 4>So you have justice more than I got more justice

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<v Speaker 4>under God during my senior year when I was very

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<v Speaker 4>restless than any other senior in the class. And I

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<v Speaker 4>think I held the record for about ten years. But

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<v Speaker 4>but I.

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<v Speaker 2>I want I want to I want to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the title of the book, Justice Undergoden This this is

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<v Speaker 2>a case. You were a newly minted or relatively minted lawyer,

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<v Speaker 2>your dad. It was a legal legend here in Boston

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<v Speaker 2>for many many years. And after graduating from Suffolk Law School,

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<v Speaker 2>working doing that at nights at night, which is always

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<v Speaker 2>tough because you were teaching in the Boston school system,

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<v Speaker 2>you found your your work in life. And one of

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<v Speaker 2>the first cases that landed on your desk, courtesy of

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<v Speaker 2>your dad was the Bobby Joe Leister case. And it

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<v Speaker 2>turned it turned out to be a huge case, and

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<v Speaker 2>you fought every every obstacle that was thrown in your way.

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<v Speaker 2>I can identify with some of those obstacles. Just give

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<v Speaker 2>us some. I'm just going to take a minute or so,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I got to take a quick break. How

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<v Speaker 2>when you first got this case. How long did it

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<v Speaker 2>take you to figure out this is the case that's

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<v Speaker 2>a missed a conviction, that was a that is a

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<v Speaker 2>miscarriage of justice.

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<v Speaker 4>So you know, it goes right back to the the

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<v Speaker 4>starting off point was I finished, I finished teaching, and

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<v Speaker 4>I was given a job as a as a public

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<v Speaker 4>defender in the Marldon Courts. That fortunately gave me the

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<v Speaker 4>right to have a private practice to supplement. And that

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<v Speaker 4>was how I ended up in my father's law office

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<v Speaker 4>on my first day of being a public defender the

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<v Speaker 4>late afternoon, and I was trying to clear space so

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<v Speaker 4>I could, you know, work out of his office and

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<v Speaker 4>they and I told him, I said, listen, I'm getting

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<v Speaker 4>a little bit of money, but I need more. Can

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<v Speaker 4>you give me some casework? And this is four or

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<v Speaker 4>five o'clock in the afternoon. He's going through the mail

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<v Speaker 4>and he opened up an envelope from the Federal District

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<v Speaker 4>Court where he had been appointed to represent this fellow

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<v Speaker 4>Bobby Joe Lista for his third petition to habeas corpus,

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<v Speaker 4>which was unusual usually he get one and he looked

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<v Speaker 4>it over and he said, hah, this guy's being charged

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<v Speaker 4>convicted of murder. He's run out of appeals. Why don't you,

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<v Speaker 4>why don't he Why don't you practice on this case?

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<v Speaker 4>Is what he said. And he said, this guy, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, he must be a cry baby. Why is he?

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<v Speaker 4>Why is he doing this? But this is what he

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<v Speaker 4>said to me that was most vital. He said. I

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<v Speaker 4>said to him, first of all, it's a murder case.

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<v Speaker 4>I can't do it. And he said, and it's sort

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<v Speaker 4>of like what you just mentioned about Alex Cora. You

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<v Speaker 4>can't do any worse. He said to me, you can't

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<v Speaker 4>do any worse than the other lawyers he had. So

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<v Speaker 4>what happened was to get to your point, he said,

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<v Speaker 4>I may you have to go out and talk to

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<v Speaker 4>him face to face. Don't just rely on the papers.

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<v Speaker 4>So to answer a question. About a week later, I

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<v Speaker 4>went out, I spoke with him. I met this very

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<v Speaker 4>gentle guy. He was accompanied by this jailhouse lawyer by

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<v Speaker 4>the name of Victor. That explained to me why it

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<v Speaker 4>was going to be a great appeal for me to take.

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<v Speaker 4>And I walked out of it with an unflinching belief

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<v Speaker 4>that he was telling me the truth and that he

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<v Speaker 4>was innocent. And I went home and I read the

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<v Speaker 4>case summary, and I saw that there were lots of variables.

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<v Speaker 4>It was an identification case, and without knowing anything else,

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<v Speaker 4>I knew that if it was identification, it could have

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<v Speaker 4>been a misidentification. And it was my naivete dan more

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<v Speaker 4>than anything else, that caused me to say, this guy

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<v Speaker 4>is innocent. I just never had it. I was never

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<v Speaker 4>aft to make that kind of evaluation, and that was dominant.

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<v Speaker 4>I convinced my father to go out and speak with him,

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<v Speaker 4>and after he spoke with Bobby, and this is a

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<v Speaker 4>wise old guy that's been around the block many many times,

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<v Speaker 4>and he was convinced of it as well. So we

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<v Speaker 4>started off at this plateau March nineteen seventy seven, believing

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<v Speaker 4>that this guy not only was innocent, but he was

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<v Speaker 4>really screwed by the system.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we're going to get into the story. We're going

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<v Speaker 2>to have some folks join us. Those of you who

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<v Speaker 2>know that Bobby Joe Leister case, you're more than welcome

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<v Speaker 2>to call and ask questions. It was a case that

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<v Speaker 2>came down at a different time here in Massachusetts. It

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<v Speaker 2>may sound like incredible. There are people who are inside

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<v Speaker 2>the prison walls who are in fact innocent, And I

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<v Speaker 2>always emphasize Christ for people to understand the difference between

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<v Speaker 2>not guilty when a verdict. When a jury comes back

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<v Speaker 2>with a not guilty verdict, they are saying the Commonwealth

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<v Speaker 2>and they're only saying the Commonwealth did not fulfill its

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<v Speaker 2>obligation to prove all the elements of the crime that

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<v Speaker 2>was alleged beyond a reasonable doubt. No jury comes back

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<v Speaker 2>and says innocent, but a lawyer like yourself can get

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<v Speaker 2>a sense sometimes. I had the same feeling the first

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<v Speaker 2>time I met Joe Salvadi in Conquered State Prison and

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<v Speaker 2>I asked him a couple of questions, and you have

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of eerie feeling that this guy actually might

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<v Speaker 2>be innocent. We want to talk about your journey. We're

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<v Speaker 2>going to be joined on the other side by the

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<v Speaker 2>former mayor of Springfield who was on the Governor's Council

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<v Speaker 2>when you were able to secure a commutation, which was

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<v Speaker 2>a very difficult thing to do. But there's so much

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<v Speaker 2>to this story. We're going to try to get it

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<v Speaker 2>all in in the hour. Those of you you have

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<v Speaker 2>a question, feel free to join the conversation. Six one, seven, two, five, four,

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<v Speaker 2>ten thirty. My guest is form of Superior Court Justice

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<v Speaker 2>Judge Chris Muse his book Justice under Got and this

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<v Speaker 2>is a great book. I read it today. It's about

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred and eighty so pages give you exactly as Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a little bit longer, about one ninety and

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<v Speaker 2>well written, easy to read, but it really does give

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<v Speaker 2>you an understanding of how the court systems work and

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<v Speaker 2>how reluctant. What I came away with, Chris was the

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<v Speaker 2>reluctance of all the judges up and down in the

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<v Speaker 2>court system to actually say, hey, there may be a

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<v Speaker 2>problem here. Many of the judges who I think you

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<v Speaker 2>reference here in my opinion, went out of their way

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<v Speaker 2>to maintain the conviction, even though you folks had made

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<v Speaker 2>so many really compelling arguments that there were at a

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<v Speaker 2>minimum serious questions and maybe that this was indeed case

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<v Speaker 2>of actual innocence. Back with Chris Muse and phone calls

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<v Speaker 2>and guests, and you're going to have a You're going

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<v Speaker 2>to go to law school for the next forty minutes, folks,

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<v Speaker 2>whether you like it or not. So stay with us.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a great story.

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<v Speaker 1>You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b

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<v Speaker 1>Z Boston's news.

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<v Speaker 2>Radio talk with former Massachusetts superior Court judge for many years,

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<v Speaker 2>a defense lawyer, criminal defense lawyer. His book Justice under God,

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<v Speaker 2>the story of his and his family. His dad was

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<v Speaker 2>a very well respected iconic lawyer here in the Greater

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<v Speaker 2>Boston area for decades himself. His dad a World War

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<v Speaker 2>Two veteran who had quite a military career as well,

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<v Speaker 2>which is incorporated into the book. But they represented the

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<v Speaker 2>young man Bobby Joe Lista, who was arrested at the

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<v Speaker 2>age of nineteen for murder he didn't commit. He spent

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<v Speaker 2>more than fifteen years at a Massachusetts state prison before

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<v Speaker 2>Bob and Chris Muse won his freedom. This is a

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<v Speaker 2>great book. Chris on Us is Michael Albano from a

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<v Speaker 2>mayor of Springfield, Massachusetts. Mister mayor, former Governor's Council.

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<v Speaker 5>How are you, sir, Good evening, be a good to

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<v Speaker 5>be with you and in Justice Muse. Thanks for having Mike.

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<v Speaker 4>Mike nice to hear you too. Great.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me let me, let me let the two of

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<v Speaker 2>you explain. We're going to jump ahead a little bit here.

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<v Speaker 2>After many appeals within the court system which fell on

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<v Speaker 2>deaf ears, I hope I'm characterizing that correctly. Chris. You

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<v Speaker 2>decided that the better tact might be seek a commutation,

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<v Speaker 2>which you did finally get. But seeking a commutation was

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<v Speaker 2>difficult because the practice of commutations in those days required

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<v Speaker 2>that the inmate, before commutation would be given, had to

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<v Speaker 2>express regret and sorrow for the crime that he had committed.

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<v Speaker 2>And your client was insistent that he had nothing to

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<v Speaker 2>apologize for because he did commit the crime. And maybe

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<v Speaker 2>the two of you can explain how you were able

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<v Speaker 2>to work around that. I guess Michae o'bono gave you

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<v Speaker 2>some pretty good advice on this, Chris. Why don't you

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<v Speaker 2>start it then, Mike, we can work you into the conversation.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, let me let me get let me get to

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<v Speaker 4>another very important waypoint, as we call it. In nineteen

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<v Speaker 4>eighty five, we'd exhausted all of our appeals. We've been

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<v Speaker 4>out and down the federal courts. We had three times

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<v Speaker 4>in front of the Supreme Judicial Court. We kept getting

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<v Speaker 4>pushed back because the courts are reluctant to overturn these

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<v Speaker 4>kinds of convictions back in the day, and I went

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<v Speaker 4>out to see Bobby and I told them the bad news,

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<v Speaker 4>and he said, explain to me, why did they do

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<v Speaker 4>this to me? And I said, he said, you got

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<v Speaker 4>a fair trial, and he looked at me and he said,

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<v Speaker 4>how could I have gotten a fair trial if I'm innocent?

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<v Speaker 4>And I said, listen, Bobby, you got to be patient.

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<v Speaker 4>You got a second I'm going to get you a commutation. Now.

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<v Speaker 4>At that time, I had no idea how to do it,

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<v Speaker 4>but he did because everyone that was serving a second

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<v Speaker 4>or first degree murder case knew exactly what the formula was.

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<v Speaker 4>And he basically screamed at me a little bit and

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<v Speaker 4>he said to me, I won't even get a hearing

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<v Speaker 4>until I've been in for twenty years, and I'll be

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<v Speaker 4>too old to have a family. I remember that vividly.

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<v Speaker 4>And then he said to me, and I'm never going

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<v Speaker 4>to say I'm sorry, and he won't let me do it.

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<v Speaker 4>So those were the rules. I got the actual regulations myself.

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<v Speaker 4>And then, because I'm always looking for guidance, I knew

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<v Speaker 4>who was going to be my guiding light. It was

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<v Speaker 4>my friend from another source. He was a probation officer,

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<v Speaker 4>and I knew Mike from many many years before this,

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<v Speaker 4>who were very good friends. So I called him up

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<v Speaker 4>and I said, if you go over to the public house,

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<v Speaker 4>I'll buy you a beer and give me give me,

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<v Speaker 4>give me a lecture on how I handle a commutation.

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<v Speaker 4>And he gave it to me, and he gave me

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<v Speaker 4>the best advice ever. I'll sum it and then I

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<v Speaker 4>think summarize it. He said, you're going to have to

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<v Speaker 4>be able to of all, make a compelling case as

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<v Speaker 4>to why it's possible or plausible that this skid is innocent.

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<v Speaker 4>I said, I'll do it. The second thing is, if

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<v Speaker 4>you get through us, you have to go political. That is,

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<v Speaker 4>the governance council has to approve it, so you're gonna

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<v Speaker 4>have to favorable publicity for it. And that was critical

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<v Speaker 4>as well, because if he said, if the board gives

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<v Speaker 4>you the commutation, the governor has to have some kind

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<v Speaker 4>of popular push and as well as a governance council.

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<v Speaker 4>And that caused me to be able to reach out

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<v Speaker 4>to another fellow that ended up recruiting a very important

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<v Speaker 4>cause of this machine, a guy by the name of

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<v Speaker 4>Charlie Kenny, who was a writer of the Globe that

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<v Speaker 4>wrote an incredibly compelling argument about Bobby's case, made it

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<v Speaker 4>into the Boston Globe magazine, and that caused to get

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<v Speaker 4>some new evidence. But I want to go right back,

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<v Speaker 4>and I'll let Mike explain what it was about when

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<v Speaker 4>and how being able to get a commutation dependent upon

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<v Speaker 4>either saying you sorry or getting the board to waive it.

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<v Speaker 4>And Mike, Mike, go ahead.

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<v Speaker 2>We got a couple of minutes here before the newsbreak.

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<v Speaker 2>We may have to pick it up on the other side.

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<v Speaker 2>But again, I know a little bit about commutations from

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<v Speaker 2>the Salvadi case. The NT easy tell us some what

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<v Speaker 2>advice you gave Chris and how he followed it.

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<v Speaker 5>Sure well, you have to also remember that not only

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<v Speaker 5>did a petitioner have to come before us and express remorse,

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<v Speaker 5>and even if they got through the Advisory Board of Pardons,

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<v Speaker 5>then it had to go to the governor. You may

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<v Speaker 5>recall the Governor Ducoccus was in office in the nineteen eighties,

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<v Speaker 5>but he had been beaten by ed King in nineteen

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<v Speaker 5>seventy eight, and a lot of it, a lot of

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<v Speaker 5>that election revolved around the fact that Governor Ducaccus issued

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<v Speaker 5>fifty seven commutations of first and second degree murders. That

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<v Speaker 5>was the thing to do in those days. So we

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<v Speaker 5>went from a very liberal criminal justice system and Department

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<v Speaker 5>of Corrections into a conservative mode under Ed King. So

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<v Speaker 5>when Ducacus came back, he was still reeling from all

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<v Speaker 5>the commutations that he'd given and he was not in

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<v Speaker 5>favor of doing any commutations during his second term of office.

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<v Speaker 5>So when Chris came to see me, I gave him

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<v Speaker 5>that advice and I said, look, the advisory board, apart

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<v Speaker 5>in the Parole Board, is really not accepting the fact

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<v Speaker 5>that someone is innocent. This is just the way it is.

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<v Speaker 5>They you do have to make a compelling case. And

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<v Speaker 5>in those days that's how it was. And Chris is

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<v Speaker 5>credit and to his team. They made the case.

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<v Speaker 4>We met with the.

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<v Speaker 5>Individual members of the Parole Board and the case was

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<v Speaker 5>so compelling that we had a hearing and we were

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<v Speaker 5>prepared to issue a favorable recommendation to the governor.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is in the nineteen eighties. This is before

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<v Speaker 2>the Willie Horton debicle that caused Mike Tacacas to stop

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<v Speaker 2>giving commutations after that debiclet this was this was when

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<v Speaker 2>he was returned to office, but before the Willie Horton case.

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<v Speaker 2>But it still was a difficult blessing to get from

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<v Speaker 2>a governor. But again, you I know, were important on

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<v Speaker 2>the board at the time, and there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>pressure brought, I believe to members of the Governor's Council,

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<v Speaker 2>were pressures brought to the Governor's Council by law enforcement

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<v Speaker 2>to back off these commutations.

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<v Speaker 5>If I recall, well, there's no question about it, and

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<v Speaker 5>you know very well dealing with Doe Salvadi and Peter

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<v Speaker 5>Lamoni and Lewis Greco and Henry Timilio, which is a

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<v Speaker 5>very tragic case of Massachusetts history. But it's political. It

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<v Speaker 5>does get political. It's very legalistic as well. You have

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<v Speaker 5>to make your case before the courts had exhaust all

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<v Speaker 5>administrative remedies, legal remedies, before you come to the Advisory

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<v Speaker 5>Board of Pardons and the Governor's Council. So it's political,

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<v Speaker 5>it's challenging, and that's why very few of these commutations

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<v Speaker 5>that ever go through.

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<v Speaker 2>And if I'm not mistaken, and I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>go too far in this, depending upon what you want

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<v Speaker 2>to say, I believe that some members of the Governor's

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<v Speaker 2>Council have at times been actually threatened by law enforcement

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<v Speaker 2>officials or people perhaps who are no longer law enforcement officials.

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<v Speaker 2>If you get my.

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<v Speaker 5>Drift, Well, that has happened, Dan, That's absolutely happened. But

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<v Speaker 5>the Chris's point as well is the media played a

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<v Speaker 5>very important role. And if it wasn't for you, Dan, righty,

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<v Speaker 5>I'm not sure Joe Salbody would have ever been released

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<v Speaker 5>from prison. But the favorable media that Salvadi got and

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<v Speaker 5>Bobby Joe Lister got through Chrismus in the Boston Globe

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<v Speaker 5>played a very big part in the release of Leister,

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<v Speaker 5>and it was critical to this whole process.

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<v Speaker 2>I call it the court of public opinion, and Chris

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<v Speaker 2>was very wise to enlist your advice and counsel. Let

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<v Speaker 2>me do this, gentlemen, if it's okay, I got to

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<v Speaker 2>take a quick break for news to come back. Mike,

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<v Speaker 2>if you could stay with us for a moment or two,

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<v Speaker 2>I'd appreciate it. And Chris muse Obviously, I want to

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<v Speaker 2>get to the story. I want to briefly touch upon

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<v Speaker 2>the frustrations because they don't want to gloss over it.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think it's more important to talk about your

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<v Speaker 2>success and what Bobby Joe Leister was able to accomplish

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<v Speaker 2>as a civilian, as a freedman as a result again

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<v Speaker 2>of your efforts and your dad's efforts, because I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's a big part of the story that people for

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<v Speaker 2>us to tell him, Yeah, he was innocent, he did

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<v Speaker 2>do the crime. We know that, and your book proves that.

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<v Speaker 2>But the results, the fruit of your work is the

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<v Speaker 2>amount of work that Bobby joe Leister did in his

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<v Speaker 2>post conviction period of time, which may have saved a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of lives at a very critical time in Boston

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<v Speaker 2>into the nineteen nineties. I want to get to that

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<v Speaker 2>part of the book as well. I think you know

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<v Speaker 2>exactly what I'm talking about, Chris, I would be back

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<v Speaker 2>on side right after this quick news break at the

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<v Speaker 2>bottom of the hour.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Nice Eye with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.

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<v Speaker 2>We really have two guests. Chris Muse, former Superit Court

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<v Speaker 2>judge here in Massachusetts, who's written a book Justice under God,

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<v Speaker 2>All Faith, Hope and Charity Freed And and how how faith,

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<v Speaker 2>hope and charity freed an innocent man and helped saved

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<v Speaker 2>save a thousand lives talking about his client, Bobby joe Leister,

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<v Speaker 2>who spent fifteen years in prison for murder he didn't commit. Chris,

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<v Speaker 2>if you could, and again, I know this is tough

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<v Speaker 2>to encapsulate on the air, give us a quick encapsulation

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<v Speaker 2>of how you really became convinced beyond your instinct, but

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<v Speaker 2>became convinced legally that Bobby Joe Lester had been framed

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<v Speaker 2>for this murder, a murder of a variety store owner

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<v Speaker 2>that he just didn't do.

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<v Speaker 4>He's a long involved one, and I'll I'll try to

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<v Speaker 4>give it kind of quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>Particularly interested in the suggestive identification.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's the most important part. There was a robbery

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<v Speaker 4>September twenty seventh in Cardman Square small variety store, the

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<v Speaker 4>Talbot Variety, and two guys walked in and they bullied

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<v Speaker 4>the woman behind the stand, Missus Whiteside, and her husband

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<v Speaker 4>came out because they had a gun and he wanted money.

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<v Speaker 4>And the husband came out saw them attacking his wife,

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<v Speaker 4>and he took up a glass or a cup and

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<v Speaker 4>smashed it on the one of the assailants who shot him,

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<v Speaker 4>grabbed the money and ran and he was killed instantly.

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<v Speaker 4>The police came and they gave a description over the

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<v Speaker 4>airwaves and it was wanted for armed robbery and murder.

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<v Speaker 4>Two blackmailes six feet tall, both dirty look and eating shaves,

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<v Speaker 4>one of whom was wearing a black shirt in green

420
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:08.039
<v Speaker 4>pants and had a hat. Now fast forward to your

421
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:10.960
<v Speaker 4>old neighborhood, because I know you played hockey at the

422
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.319
<v Speaker 4>Boston Arena and I did too, and so I knew

423
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:16.920
<v Speaker 4>who this was. And way on the other side of town,

424
00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:20.079
<v Speaker 4>right way on the other side of town. Bobby was

425
00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.680
<v Speaker 4>walking on the street. He was talking to some friends.

426
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:27.440
<v Speaker 4>He's in the south end St. Petel Street, over by

427
00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:32.599
<v Speaker 4>the Symphony and that neighborhood, and a police car came by,

428
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:37.200
<v Speaker 4>did a reverse saw him, pointed to him and said, hey,

429
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:39.000
<v Speaker 4>we want to talk to you about that murder that

430
00:23:39.079 --> 00:23:42.759
<v Speaker 4>happened over in Dorchester. And what they did was they

431
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:45.880
<v Speaker 4>picked him up. They brought him down to Boston City

432
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.799
<v Speaker 4>Hospital under what the court said was to make a

433
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.839
<v Speaker 4>bedside confrontation with a dying victim. And of course the

434
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:55.920
<v Speaker 4>police did not know them as what the judge says,

435
00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:00.480
<v Speaker 4>in point of fact, mister Whiteside was dead when he

436
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:06.279
<v Speaker 4>left the store under a sheet and brought basically to

437
00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:09.920
<v Speaker 4>the emergency room further and then further to the mug

438
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:14.599
<v Speaker 4>In any event, Missus Whiteside is distraught. They said, we

439
00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:17.039
<v Speaker 4>think we have a guy that you might might have

440
00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:20.039
<v Speaker 4>been involved with something to that effect. They take her

441
00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:23.400
<v Speaker 4>outside the pocket lot the sea Bobby taken outside of

442
00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:25.960
<v Speaker 4>the cruiser. It was actually a paddy wagon. I can

443
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:30.000
<v Speaker 4>use that expression. It was taken out of the I

444
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.599
<v Speaker 4>know you and I could talk later about it, and

445
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:38.400
<v Speaker 4>so that he was able to be seeing handcuffed, she says,

446
00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:40.559
<v Speaker 4>can I take a closer look? They go over there,

447
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:44.119
<v Speaker 4>and they do take a closer look and says, yep,

448
00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:46.319
<v Speaker 4>that's the man that killed my husband. And well that

449
00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:49.960
<v Speaker 4>was the beginning of the tragedy because that identification was

450
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:52.599
<v Speaker 4>as dirty and sullied as it could ever be, and

451
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:54.079
<v Speaker 4>she never went behind it.

452
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Now, yes, essentially, we're just saying she was brought there

453
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:03.799
<v Speaker 2>by the police in intentionally knowing an events that that

454
00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:04.720
<v Speaker 2>was going.

455
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:09.160
<v Speaker 4>To be there. Yeah, she she she. The trial didn't

456
00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:12.359
<v Speaker 4>indicate the certitude of his death, but later on, later

457
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.519
<v Speaker 4>on we found out from witnesses that one hundred percent

458
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:18.920
<v Speaker 4>she she she she knew he was saying, they took

459
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.440
<v Speaker 4>a run, they took him out with the cup with

460
00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:23.240
<v Speaker 4>the sheet over said, in any.

461
00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:25.799
<v Speaker 2>Effect, they in effect they did a one person lineup.

462
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.680
<v Speaker 4>They did it in the worst of circumstances. The woman,

463
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.200
<v Speaker 4>the woman had especially seen her husband pronounced dead. The

464
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:36.599
<v Speaker 4>police were giving all these indications and in order to

465
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:39.559
<v Speaker 4>be able to unravel that identification a trial, well, it

466
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:43.279
<v Speaker 4>was impossible because Bobby's lawyer was not that competent, to

467
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:47.160
<v Speaker 4>be honest with you, and in any event, uh, you

468
00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:49.200
<v Speaker 4>asked me how we were able to unravel it and

469
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:52.480
<v Speaker 4>keep up heads above water. Is that we just would.

470
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:56.319
<v Speaker 4>We were assiduous, We were relentless about getting all of

471
00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.359
<v Speaker 4>the evidence. And that all happened because I was under

472
00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:02.519
<v Speaker 4>the direction of the master. My father was a great

473
00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:05.680
<v Speaker 4>lawyer and he knew that you have to get the facts.

474
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.359
<v Speaker 4>And we just scoured the record for everything, and we

475
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:13.200
<v Speaker 4>brought appeals in front of the successive judges to say that,

476
00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:15.799
<v Speaker 4>you know, the grand jury minutes said that there was

477
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:20.000
<v Speaker 4>there was confusion, there was there was misidentifications. The police

478
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:24.279
<v Speaker 4>lied about the circumstances of it. Bobby Joe had a

479
00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:27.319
<v Speaker 4>had a time X watch when he was arrested, and

480
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:30.079
<v Speaker 4>the guy that did the killing had lost his Bolivar

481
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:33.519
<v Speaker 4>watch at the store. He only had a few bucks

482
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.839
<v Speaker 4>in his pocket. And the big one they told you

483
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:40.440
<v Speaker 4>earlier was that we discovered that there was a They

484
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:43.759
<v Speaker 4>called a paraffin test as a shorthand expression, but it's

485
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:47.519
<v Speaker 4>a gunpowder residue test that they performed, and when Bobby

486
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:49.960
<v Speaker 4>was arrested, he said, we want to take samples of

487
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:53.000
<v Speaker 4>your hands and he says, what will it do? He says, well,

488
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:56.240
<v Speaker 4>it will show whether you whether you whether you shot

489
00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:59.160
<v Speaker 4>a gun recently, Which hand do you use? You or right?

490
00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:02.079
<v Speaker 4>You're lefty. When you heard the explanation, he said to

491
00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:05.960
<v Speaker 4>the cops, take both of my hands. So they sent

492
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.039
<v Speaker 4>the sent the test down to the FBI and it

493
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:11.039
<v Speaker 4>came back with there was no gunpowder residue on them.

494
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:14.799
<v Speaker 4>But the report said that the results were quote unquote inconclusive.

495
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:19.000
<v Speaker 4>And that's another storyline that that was that I can't

496
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:21.680
<v Speaker 4>get into because it's studios. At the end of the day,

497
00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:25.599
<v Speaker 4>the end of the day, we weren't able to persuade anyone.

498
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:27.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, I know. But the point that I wanted to

499
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:30.079
<v Speaker 2>make is that as I read the book today and

500
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.519
<v Speaker 2>refamiliarize myself with your case, any lawyer I should get

501
00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.240
<v Speaker 2>this book to read it just to understand. You used

502
00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:40.079
<v Speaker 2>the word assiduous, and that's exactly you would you folks,

503
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.000
<v Speaker 2>were you got to be a dog on a bone

504
00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:44.720
<v Speaker 2>on these sorts of cases. Uh, And you certainly were

505
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:47.519
<v Speaker 2>dogs on a bone. You were not going to give up.

506
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:51.119
<v Speaker 2>You kept digging and digging and digging, and you know,

507
00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:54.279
<v Speaker 2>to carry the metaphor you you weren't going to bury

508
00:27:54.279 --> 00:27:56.200
<v Speaker 2>the bone. You were just going to keep digging and

509
00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:01.440
<v Speaker 2>digging and digging, and that obviously helped you with the commutation,

510
00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:08.640
<v Speaker 2>and it eventually led to the freedom of Bobby joe Leister.

511
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:10.160
<v Speaker 2>And what I want to do is, I want to

512
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:13.400
<v Speaker 2>take a quick break, and I want to bring not

513
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:17.039
<v Speaker 2>only Counselor and Mayor Albano back into the conversation, but

514
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:21.720
<v Speaker 2>I wanted most importantly to have you explain the work

515
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:28.200
<v Speaker 2>that Bobby joe Leister did unfortunately fire. Yeah, I want

516
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:30.440
<v Speaker 2>to talk about his legacy, which of course never would

517
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:34.680
<v Speaker 2>have occurred without your help, your assistance, your legal assistants,

518
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:39.599
<v Speaker 2>and your dad's legal work, which again, people often look

519
00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:42.160
<v Speaker 2>at lawyers and they look at them somewhat skeptically. And

520
00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:45.319
<v Speaker 2>the only time people don't look at lawyers skeptically sometimes

521
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:47.279
<v Speaker 2>when they need a lawyer. We'll take a quick break.

522
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:50.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be back with Chris Muse and also

523
00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:54.559
<v Speaker 2>former mayor of Springfield Michael Albano, who served on the

524
00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:57.759
<v Speaker 2>Governance Council which gave the commutation, and if I can

525
00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:00.200
<v Speaker 2>get a couple of calls in, I will buy. I

526
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:02.279
<v Speaker 2>most importantly want you to hear the story, and I

527
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:04.759
<v Speaker 2>want you to get the book Justice Under God by

528
00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:08.640
<v Speaker 2>Chris Muse m Us former Superior Court judge. Back on

529
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Nightside right after this.

530
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:14.240
<v Speaker 1>You're on Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm w b Z,

531
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:16.160
<v Speaker 1>Boston's news radio.

532
00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:21.160
<v Speaker 2>Talking with Chris Muse, former Superior Court judge here in Massachusetts, who,

533
00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:26.480
<v Speaker 2>along with his dad, Bob Muse, a lawyer for many

534
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:29.519
<v Speaker 2>many years, a legendary lawyer in Boston, along with his son,

535
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:34.000
<v Speaker 2>worked for many years to free a man named Bobby

536
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:35.920
<v Speaker 2>Joe Least many of you have heard about the case.

537
00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:38.240
<v Speaker 2>You can read about it in a new book by Chris,

538
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:42.240
<v Speaker 2>Justice Under God. With Us. Also is Michael Albano, former

539
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:45.039
<v Speaker 2>mayor of Springfield, amongst other things, that served under the

540
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:48.799
<v Speaker 2>Governor's Council and one of the votes that freed Bobby

541
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Joe Lester allowed him to leave prison. Gentlemen, quick comment

542
00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:56.720
<v Speaker 2>on realizing that not only Bobby Joe Leister's legacy, but

543
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:03.799
<v Speaker 2>Chris your legacy as well as Council Albino's legacy, are

544
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.200
<v Speaker 2>very much involved in this because obviously, without the work

545
00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:12.319
<v Speaker 2>of both of your work and Mike's vote, Bobby Jolista

546
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:16.119
<v Speaker 2>might have died in prison. Just give us a quick example, Chris,

547
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:19.200
<v Speaker 2>of what Bobby was able to accomplish in his life.

548
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:20.759
<v Speaker 2>And we don't have a lot of time.

549
00:30:20.599 --> 00:30:23.480
<v Speaker 4>Left, and I'm going to give it. Yeah, I got

550
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:25.920
<v Speaker 4>first of all, say that Bobby came out of reform

551
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:32.799
<v Speaker 4>Alabama segregated itself, unblemish record, A happy kid came to

552
00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:35.839
<v Speaker 4>Boston for freedom, you know, for the liberty that he

553
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.960
<v Speaker 4>thought he was going to get it till he didn't

554
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:41.160
<v Speaker 4>have it anymore. But when he spent the first night

555
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:44.400
<v Speaker 4>in Walpole Prison, he describes he was putting the cell.

556
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.759
<v Speaker 4>It was doc and he cried for his mother, and

557
00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:52.960
<v Speaker 4>he prayed to God, and he had that indomitable fate

558
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.839
<v Speaker 4>that a few of us are blessed with. And that's

559
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:58.359
<v Speaker 4>the thing that sustained him. He said, he said, I

560
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:01.440
<v Speaker 4>left my soul in that he of the Good Master above,

561
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:04.400
<v Speaker 4>and he would repeat that regularly to me. He believed

562
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:07.240
<v Speaker 4>that everything was going to turn out alright because God

563
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:09.359
<v Speaker 4>was going to take care of him. So when he

564
00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:12.079
<v Speaker 4>got out, we're talking about a guy that is just

565
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:17.000
<v Speaker 4>I think he's a near perfect human being, is remarkable person.

566
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.480
<v Speaker 4>He became not only a former client up front, he

567
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:24.359
<v Speaker 4>was like a brother to me, and he was like

568
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:28.400
<v Speaker 4>a son to my father. And when he got out

569
00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:32.400
<v Speaker 4>he was looking for work for future. I encouraged him

570
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:35.680
<v Speaker 4>to sign up with the Boston Street Workers program. There

571
00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:38.440
<v Speaker 4>was a brand new program and it was basically to

572
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:40.720
<v Speaker 4>work on the streets with the most at risk kids

573
00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:43.759
<v Speaker 4>in the city. He did it for thirty years, and

574
00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:46.480
<v Speaker 4>he did more, and people that are in the city

575
00:31:46.519 --> 00:31:50.599
<v Speaker 4>that became prominently Tracy Lithgutt and Robert Lewis and others,

576
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.799
<v Speaker 4>they will tell you that he was the anchor for

577
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:57.279
<v Speaker 4>this program to get the kids steered straight. But in

578
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:00.640
<v Speaker 4>one year he had what was called the Boston Miracle

579
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:03.839
<v Speaker 4>when they were able to negotiate and Bobby was part

580
00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:07.119
<v Speaker 4>of it, a ceasefire with all these burgeoning gangs out

581
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:11.920
<v Speaker 4>there to reduce the homicides for people less than seventeen

582
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:16.599
<v Speaker 4>to zero. And before that you were seeing little twelve

583
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:19.599
<v Speaker 4>year old girls being shot and killed, and kids all

584
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:22.440
<v Speaker 4>over the place, dozens of them, and Bobby and his

585
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:25.400
<v Speaker 4>team of street workers brought them all down. He became

586
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:29.599
<v Speaker 4>an icon Bobby and I used to speak to youth

587
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.960
<v Speaker 4>groups and our favorite one is a group called the

588
00:32:33.079 --> 00:32:35.960
<v Speaker 4>Judicial Youth Corp. We did it for like thirty years.

589
00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:39.200
<v Speaker 4>We had to stop. I never stopped doing it. But

590
00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:42.119
<v Speaker 4>Bobby died tragically in a home fire in twenty twenty.

591
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.440
<v Speaker 4>But U Killer's death, he got out in the streets.

592
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:51.200
<v Speaker 4>Everyone in the neighborhoods, particularly in Roxbury, Mattapan, Dorchester, everyone

593
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:55.079
<v Speaker 4>knew Bobby, and Bobby was a peacemaker. Bobby was a

594
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:57.519
<v Speaker 4>guy that gave support. He's the one that helped them

595
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:02.920
<v Speaker 4>get jobs, etc. And he died. When he died, Mayor

596
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:07.880
<v Speaker 4>Walsh during the COVID press release first conferences he had

597
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:10.400
<v Speaker 4>every day asked the city to give him a moment

598
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:13.160
<v Speaker 4>of silence because he was one of the favorite sons

599
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:15.880
<v Speaker 4>of the city. He was just blessed. So I guess

600
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:18.720
<v Speaker 4>I'm telling you. You know, in a short hand thirty

601
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:22.359
<v Speaker 4>years of working. He told me he had to attend

602
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:26.359
<v Speaker 4>more than eight hundred funerals of young people that were

603
00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:31.799
<v Speaker 4>victims of violence because he either knew them or he

604
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:35.440
<v Speaker 4>was there to give protection during the services. So I

605
00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:37.519
<v Speaker 4>mean he was just remarkable.

606
00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:40.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Chris, when you get a quick comment from Michael Obonam. Mike,

607
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:42.440
<v Speaker 2>I know that as the mayor of Springfield you were

608
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.599
<v Speaker 2>dealing with a lot of these issues as well. How

609
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:48.359
<v Speaker 2>important is it in your mind you the vote that

610
00:33:48.759 --> 00:33:52.680
<v Speaker 2>you cast for his commutation, How important is in your mind,

611
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:54.920
<v Speaker 2>particularly with the success and the work that he did

612
00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:56.559
<v Speaker 2>all these years in Boston.

613
00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:01.440
<v Speaker 5>Well, when I was mayor, I brought Bobby Joe came

614
00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:03.960
<v Speaker 5>out to Springfield to do a press conference with us

615
00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:06.839
<v Speaker 5>because we were opposed to the death penalty at the time.

616
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:10.800
<v Speaker 5>This is probably nineteen ninety seven. You may recall the

617
00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:14.719
<v Speaker 5>State Senate passed a version approving of the death penalty

618
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.360
<v Speaker 5>by a voter twenty six to fourteen. It also passed

619
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:22.239
<v Speaker 5>the House of Representatives, and Governor Weld would have signed

620
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:26.880
<v Speaker 5>it at the House not reconsidered. Now, Lester got to

621
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:29.039
<v Speaker 5>Tom Finneran, who was the Speaker of the House at

622
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:32.400
<v Speaker 5>the time, and he also got to John Slattery of

623
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:36.039
<v Speaker 5>State Representative Peabody at the time, and he flipped both

624
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:39.760
<v Speaker 5>of their votes with his story that an innocent man

625
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:45.000
<v Speaker 5>could in fact be executed in Massachusetts. Now, we don't

626
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:48.039
<v Speaker 5>think much about the death penalty in Massachusetts these days,

627
00:34:48.280 --> 00:34:50.800
<v Speaker 5>but it was a pretty hot issue there, and Bobby

628
00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:56.199
<v Speaker 5>Joe Leister campaigned across the Commonwealth telling his story and

629
00:34:56.280 --> 00:35:00.639
<v Speaker 5>it changed the dynamics of the state legislature. And that's

630
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:02.519
<v Speaker 5>why we don't have a death penalty today.

631
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:05.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, that fight for the death penalty came in the

632
00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:08.280
<v Speaker 2>in the wake of the killing of the young Curly

633
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:12.000
<v Speaker 2>boy though those two horrific human beings who kidnapped him.

634
00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:14.039
<v Speaker 2>Then we could have a we could have a long

635
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:19.360
<v Speaker 2>conversation about that case. But uh, you know, and and

636
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:24.800
<v Speaker 2>also Bob Curley, the young boy's dad, I think, also

637
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.320
<v Speaker 2>came out against the death penalty at that time, which

638
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:29.719
<v Speaker 2>was a remarkable show of strength and I know I

639
00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:32.840
<v Speaker 2>would never have had that is for sure. Well, gentlemen,

640
00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:34.760
<v Speaker 2>I want to thank you both very much, but I

641
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:36.480
<v Speaker 2>want to give a couple of callers who have hung

642
00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:40.320
<v Speaker 2>on here an opportunity to express their their thoughts. And

643
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:42.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to ask them to be both very quick.

644
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.400
<v Speaker 2>But they've waited for almost a half an hour, So

645
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:49.400
<v Speaker 2>let me first go to Joe and Belmont. Joe, Uh,

646
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:52.400
<v Speaker 2>I know you've waited a long time. A quick comment

647
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:55.159
<v Speaker 2>on the case for either Chris Muse, former Superior Court

648
00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:58.840
<v Speaker 2>judge or former Governor's councilor Michael Albano.

649
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:02.559
<v Speaker 6>Go ahead, Joe, Then could I call the twentieth hour?

650
00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:04.880
<v Speaker 6>Since I called the nine o'clock hour, you.

651
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:07.039
<v Speaker 2>Always get a haul passing the twentieth hour. Go ahead,

652
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:07.800
<v Speaker 2>talk about question.

653
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:11.119
<v Speaker 6>My question is I don't know if the judge Chris

654
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:14.800
<v Speaker 6>wants to answer this or not, but does he think

655
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:17.239
<v Speaker 6>that Karen Reid has been framed?

656
00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:19.639
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to go to the Karen read case. Joe.

657
00:36:19.719 --> 00:36:21.840
<v Speaker 2>We'll talk that about that in the twentieth hour. Thanks

658
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:26.039
<v Speaker 2>very much, Mark and Austin. Mark, if you'd like to

659
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:31.199
<v Speaker 2>join the conversation very quickly, go right ahead, yup. Then

660
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:35.880
<v Speaker 2>it goes Mark. We lost Mark, okay, take Joe was done?

661
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:39.960
<v Speaker 2>Please Rob, Thank you very much. Chris. I just want

662
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:42.239
<v Speaker 2>to read a little bit of a technical issue there.

663
00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:47.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, and again bring in the other case. The

664
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:53.119
<v Speaker 2>book Justice Undergod is available. It's on Amazon. How else

665
00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:54.079
<v Speaker 2>can people get it?

666
00:36:54.760 --> 00:36:56.679
<v Speaker 4>I think that's the way. I think Bonds and Noble

667
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:58.159
<v Speaker 4>has a tool. But if you just go on to

668
00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:00.559
<v Speaker 4>it's not in the stores because it's this is a

669
00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:03.119
<v Speaker 4>new way of doing it. But if you don't mind

670
00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:06.719
<v Speaker 4>giving a little shout out I'm dedicating every one of

671
00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:09.440
<v Speaker 4>my royalties for the next year to the New England

672
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.800
<v Speaker 4>Innocence Project. And I have a I have a boutique

673
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:15.559
<v Speaker 4>publisher if you want that that that put put the

674
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.239
<v Speaker 4>book on the market. And I want everyone to know

675
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:20.960
<v Speaker 4>that if they buy the book, that that five or

676
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:24.079
<v Speaker 4>six dollars what I would have gotten is royalty is

677
00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:27.599
<v Speaker 4>going directly to the New England Innocence Project to continue

678
00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:31.400
<v Speaker 4>to promote awareness for wrongful convictions that that you and

679
00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:35.679
<v Speaker 4>and Mike and I know so well and also support

680
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.559
<v Speaker 4>the funding and they can get it. Basically, Amazon's the

681
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:41.840
<v Speaker 4>easiest way jumps right out of that you and so

682
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:45.079
<v Speaker 4>I encourage anyone to learn a little bit more. There's

683
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:47.519
<v Speaker 4>two things. Learn a little bit about the criminal justice

684
00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:51.400
<v Speaker 4>system and learn a whole lot about this incredible human

685
00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:54.119
<v Speaker 4>being that we were blessed to have in Boston.

686
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:57.519
<v Speaker 2>It's just it's a great book. And by the way,

687
00:37:57.880 --> 00:38:00.920
<v Speaker 2>the characters who you were in front of, Federal Judge

688
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:06.119
<v Speaker 2>McNaught was a professor Binet b you, as was Paul Leacos,

689
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:12.400
<v Speaker 2>the former state Supreme Court justice here in Massachusetts. It's

690
00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:16.159
<v Speaker 2>a great book, uh, and it will teach everybody a

691
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:20.440
<v Speaker 2>lot more about I think the criminal justice system and

692
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:23.320
<v Speaker 2>how once you're convicted. We all learned in law school

693
00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:28.480
<v Speaker 2>what the standard of proof is to convict someone all

694
00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:31.880
<v Speaker 2>the elements of crime charged beyond a reasonable doubt. There

695
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:34.840
<v Speaker 2>is no standard. There is no standard to free an

696
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:38.800
<v Speaker 2>innocent man, and you were able to free an innocent man.

697
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Congratulations to you, Chris Muse, and also congratulations to Mike Albano. Mike,

698
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.559
<v Speaker 2>we need more public figures in public servants like you

699
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:49.840
<v Speaker 2>who will take a tough vote as you did on

700
00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:54.480
<v Speaker 2>this commutation case and made a big difference in the

701
00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:58.199
<v Speaker 2>life of Bobby, Joe Lester and thousands of young men

702
00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:01.239
<v Speaker 2>who he counseled with during his thirty years of freedom.

703
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:03.360
<v Speaker 2>I want to thank you both for what you've done well.

704
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:04.440
<v Speaker 4>Thank you for having me again.

705
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:07.119
<v Speaker 5>Thank you to me with you, Jen, Mike.

706
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:10.440
<v Speaker 2>Great to talk to you again as well. It's an

707
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:15.400
<v Speaker 2>amazing story, folks. It's available Justice under God by Christopher Muse.

708
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:17.880
<v Speaker 2>You will learn so much about the case, but you'll

709
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:21.480
<v Speaker 2>learn more about the criminal justice system and the concept

710
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:25.320
<v Speaker 2>of finality, which is I think still relied upon much

711
00:39:25.400 --> 00:39:29.840
<v Speaker 2>too often by appellate court justices. But that's my own bias.

712
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:33.320
<v Speaker 2>When we come back right after the newscast, we are

713
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:37.920
<v Speaker 2>going to talk about home remodeling. We have a design

714
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:41.599
<v Speaker 2>build contractor. You have all sorts of questions. He's got

715
00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:44.159
<v Speaker 2>all the answers back on Night's side right after the

716
00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:45.000
<v Speaker 2>ten o'clock news