WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.680 Welcome to the Trauma Therapists podcast. My name is gaming Person. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.839 I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping 3 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:11.000 those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:14.400 to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. 5 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:19.559 So five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome 6 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:22.399 back to the podcast. Very excited to have my guest today, 7 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:24.120 Michelle Smith. Michelle, welcome. 8 00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:26.239 Thank you so much for having me guy, It's a 9 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:27.039 pleasure to be here. 10 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:31.079 Awesome. So, Michelle has over ten years of experience supporting 11 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:36.679 individuals through trauma, grief, life transitions, anxiety, among other issues. 12 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:41.920 Trained in EMDR, DBTIFS, Gottman couple therapy, and more. She 13 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:46.000 offers a holistic, client setted approach that integrates mind body 14 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:50.479 practices with evidence based care. She provides a compassionate, non 15 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:54.200 judgmental space for clients of all backgrounds to heal, grow 16 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:58.880 and reach their goals. All right, Michelle, a little bit 17 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:01.119 about you, but before we doing, share with the listeners 18 00:01:01.159 --> 00:01:04.680 where you're from originally and where you are currently. Yeah. 19 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:09.920 So originally I'm from Edmon, Oklahoma. I was born outside 20 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:12.680 of Washington, d C. Alexandria but spent most of my 21 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:15.760 time growing up in this area. Went to Florida to 22 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:19.079 get my master's for a while, came back, had a family, 23 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:22.439 so I'm back here. Kind of went around the block 24 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:25.439 a little bit, but I am currently located in Stillwater, Oklahoma. 25 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.519 Okay, so let's dive in here. How the heck does 26 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:34.000 this path passion start for you? Yeah? 27 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:36.400 Oh my gosh, it started, I would say my first 28 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:39.560 psychology class, to be honest with you, guy, I started 29 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:41.640 learning about the brain, and I feel like I was 30 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.159 always curious about why do people do the things they do? 31 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:46.680 Why did they respond the way they respond? And my 32 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:49.319 first psychology class, I remember taking it in high school 33 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:51.959 and I felt like a whole world was unlocked where 34 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:54.159 I had to know more. I had to figure out 35 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:56.359 how can I get into this, how can I support 36 00:01:56.359 --> 00:01:59.920 people who are also curious about this? So really started 37 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:03.400 very early for me and continue to grow from there. 38 00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:06.159 Yeah all right, so you do that in high school. 39 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:09.759 You obviously go to college and what do you are 40 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:13.759 you thinking? Okay, this is it. I'm going to become 41 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:15.439 a therapist or what I think. 42 00:02:15.479 --> 00:02:17.080 I always wanted to be a therapist. 43 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:19.000 I don't think I ever wavered from that, but I 44 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:21.159 would say, you know, my experience as I went to 45 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:24.479 Master's school was very impactful for me personally. 46 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:27.360 My father was under cancer. 47 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:30.639 He was very sick during this time and actually was 48 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:32.400 one of the reasons why I moved to Florida to 49 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:36.240 be close to him. During my Master's program, he had 50 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:39.719 passed away. I had just gotten married. I was understanding 51 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:43.520 grief and life challenges in trauma in real time in 52 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.159 my personal life while I'm trying to understand how to 53 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:49.280 learn how to support others going through that and observing 54 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:52.520 that and understanding that from a personal lens, I think 55 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:56.000 was incredibly impactful for me and doubled down my need 56 00:02:56.039 --> 00:03:00.439 to understand connection, understand why we need others to heal 57 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:04.439 and so for me that was incredibly impactful and created 58 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:06.199 a lot of meaning around why I do what I 59 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:09.680 do and how I can sit across clients in those spaces. 60 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:11.039 Of course, as a human. 61 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:16.039 It's obviously, as we all know, one thing to learn 62 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:19.360 something in the pages of a book, and another thing 63 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:25.479 you know entirely to go through it. What was that 64 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:28.199 experience like for you, I mean, what was that process 65 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:30.479 like for you? I mean having to deal with your 66 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:37.000 father and then studying that. And then there's also the 67 00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:40.800 process of working with others, you know, how we absorb 68 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:42.680 that talk to us about that. 69 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.560 Yeah, I mean I think I learned very quickly the 70 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:49.199 depths of suffering and pain that people can be in 71 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:53.080 and to really build a quick empathy to that. Like 72 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.439 you said, it can be one thing learning this in 73 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.360 a book, but when you experience this, you really understand. Wow, 74 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:01.039 how vulnerable that is for somebody to even want to 75 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:03.400 come sit across for me and share their story and 76 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:08.000 be within that emotion. That is incredibly brave, incredibly courageous. 77 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.439 And it taught me how privileged this job is to 78 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:14.639 do what I do. It also challenged me to build 79 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.480 healthy boundaries and self care and ways to be able 80 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:22.240 to do this work. Very quickly, I remember realizing that 81 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:25.240 this is important not only to take care of myself, 82 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:27.399 but to be the best version of myself that I 83 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:29.279 can be as I sit across clients. And so what 84 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:31.399 does that mean for my life outside? How do I 85 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:33.800 spend time with my grief, How do I spend time 86 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:37.160 with my work, my education, myself? What do I need 87 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.079 to be able to process those emotions? And during that 88 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:43.319 time I became very close to yoga and meditation. I 89 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:47.759 started exploring different pathways of spirituality and things that were 90 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.079 important for me. The meaning created in that loss, what 91 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:53.399 does that mean? How do I carry on my father's 92 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:56.000 legacy through the work that I do? That was very 93 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:59.120 important for me. So it challenged me to really figure 94 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:01.600 that out quickly, quick quicker than maybe I would have 95 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:04.000 wanted to, to be honest, guy, But I'm grateful for 96 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:06.480 it as I look back on this experience and how 97 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:08.040 it got me here, right. 98 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:12.120 You know for me, And I'm interested to hear your 99 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:14.360 thought on this. I mean, going through an experience like 100 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:20.600 that with your father, A lot of people handle it differently. 101 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:27.560 You know. There are those of us who feel kind 102 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:30.079 of I don't want to say comfortable, but we can 103 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.000 quote unquote we can be in that moment, we can 104 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.040 be in that fire in a sense, and for others 105 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:39.639 it's like, Nope, I don't want to deal with that. 106 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.720 I don't want to get in that fire. Yeah, and 107 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:47.319 deal with it that way. Where did you find yourself 108 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.240 in that along that continuum? 109 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:54.360 I think it was very circumstantial. So there were times 110 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:56.319 where I felt like I had the capacity to be 111 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:59.240 with that emotion and I was able to utilize my resources. 112 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:01.680 And then there was time where I remember feeling incredibly 113 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:06.160 flooded and running out of class and crying and being wondering, 114 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:08.000 will I ever be able to be strong enough to 115 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:11.079 support people through this if I myself am not strong 116 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:13.480 enough to manage the eubs and the flows of my 117 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:16.399 own life. And so it was very it was very 118 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:19.160 moment by moment at first, and I really had to 119 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:22.319 hone in on my own therapy, my own resources, you know, 120 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:25.639 understanding how I can make it through this and utilize 121 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:28.319 this as an opportunity to create meaning in the work 122 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:28.839 that I do. 123 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:32.680 So to answer your question, it was up and down. 124 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:36.839 Yeah, of course, So well let's talk about that. I mean, 125 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:41.519 when you say use this opportunity to create meaning, what 126 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:43.439 are you saying there talking about that? 127 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:46.519 So I remember, you know, being in graduate school. 128 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:48.079 One of the first things that we learned as we 129 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.519 read man Search for Meaning, and that's a book by 130 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:54.600 Victor Frankel, who was this incredible psychologist who was spent 131 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:56.959 time in Auschwitz, and he talked about how we always 132 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:00.879 have a choice to perceive, to perceive and to recognize 133 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:02.399 how you want to look at things and how you 134 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:05.040 want to think and how you want to behave And 135 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:08.160 so that was pivotal for me to think about my 136 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:10.759 grief journey in that way. And my father was somebody 137 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:14.959 who really taught me to love and understand people's stories. 138 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:17.920 He was somebody in the aviation world, but became a 139 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:21.319 big leader and would give time of day to anybody, 140 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:24.360 anybody who crossed the street. He wanted to know their story, 141 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:26.439 he wanted to learn more about them, and that was 142 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:29.360 such a beautiful thing that I always admired about him. 143 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.480 And that's what honestly made me interested in understanding the 144 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.399 brain to be honest guy. And so I wanted to know, 145 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:38.279 how can I carry that legacy with me? How can 146 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:42.680 I transform this grief into meaning? Because we know that 147 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:45.120 that is a part of the healing process with grief. 148 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:46.959 We know that eventually we want to carry on the 149 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:49.040 best parts of the people that we've lost, And so 150 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:50.639 that was a question for me. 151 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:52.879 I don't know if I knew it at the moment. 152 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:55.680 I think I was curious about it, and eventually it 153 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:58.800 continued to grow. But for me, that kind of was 154 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:00.639 an anchor, that was an ink through it is that 155 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.360 eventually I will be able to carry this legacy on, 156 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:05.560 and I want to do that every moment I sit 157 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:08.360 down with clients, every moment I do something that's intentional 158 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:09.040 with my job. 159 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:11.279 Right, you want to. 160 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:16.519 Understand the meaning of the situation or what I. 161 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:17.160 Want to carry on. 162 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:20.360 I think I wanted to carry on an empathy, a 163 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:22.800 connection of value to people's stories. 164 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:27.439 That for me was the meaning is that every story has. 165 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:30.480 Value, even when we feel like we have shame attached 166 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:34.000 to it, or we feel like there's negative emotions or 167 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:37.720 difficult things to process, that we can learn from those stories. 168 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:41.320 So I wanted my clients to feel that hopefulness that 169 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:44.519 maybe something positive or maybe something meaningful can come from 170 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:48.000 the story. Maybe you're experienced felt super icky, but you 171 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:50.320 can look back and say it created this meaning for me. 172 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:52.919 And so I think that's what I meant. If that makes. 173 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:57.559 Sense, Okay, move mind everyone, I'm speaking with Michelle Smith. 174 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:02.320 So what does that look like when you're working with someone? 175 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:07.360 How do you work with that? How do you interject 176 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:09.159 that into the relationship. 177 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.159 So it's really a sense of presence, building a sense 178 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:15.879 of presence and doing the work outside of my sessions 179 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:18.279 so that I can be fully present with my clients. 180 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:20.080 I think a lot of the work that we do 181 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:23.159 is sitting across from folks, but it's also every single 182 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:26.480 moment outside of that, Right, How am I getting myself 183 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:28.840 to the place where I can really listen and be 184 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:31.799 curious and understand what does that mean to them? 185 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:32.360 Right? 186 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:35.679 Being able to approach things from a non judgmental standpoint 187 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:41.000 and expand my education of different culturals, sensitivities, and backgrounds, 188 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:43.960 and really recognize also the similarities that we all. 189 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:44.600 Have as humans. 190 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:47.080 More so, I mean, that's another reason why I got 191 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:49.279 into this work, because I truly believe that humans we 192 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:50.519 have so much in common. 193 00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:54.639 Of course we have differences, but we have these experiences. 194 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:57.759 Of pain and meaning and loss and love and connection. 195 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.039 And how can we hone in on that? 196 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:00.360 Right? 197 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:02.679 So that's something that I'm always considering as I'm sitting 198 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:05.440 across from a client. How can I bridge this gap 199 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:08.320 of humanity between us? 200 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:17.240 When you first started out, you seem to have a 201 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:24.039 very kind of inspired and inspiring palette of emotions and 202 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:27.360 feelings from what you draw when you're working with your clients. 203 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:31.600 Was was that always present or did that? Did that 204 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:35.480 grow and evolve as you've been in this field. 205 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:38.600 I think it may have been present, but I had 206 00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:40.879 to do the work to be willing to grow it 207 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:43.600 and evolve it over time. Right, So I had to 208 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:45.600 look at that and I had to be willing to 209 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:49.080 work through maybe any shame or old belief systems or 210 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:52.080 pillback layers that may have told me that that doesn't 211 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:54.679 have value. Right, we have so much that society tells 212 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:58.799 us vulnerability as weakness that how much is fair to share, 213 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:02.879 especially as a therapist being vulnerable? What does that look like? 214 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:05.720 While also aligning with my ethics and things like that? 215 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:07.600 So I really had to challenge that. I had to 216 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:09.840 think about who do I want to be, what type 217 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:12.120 of practice do I want to show up? What would 218 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:15.720 I want from that therapeutic dynamic and challenge that? And 219 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:18.440 so I had to break down a lot of barriers 220 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.080 to get there and be brave enough to do that 221 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:22.200 type of work as well. 222 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:24.840 Right, Well, you. 223 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:28.000 Just opened up an amazing question here. So how do 224 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:31.240 you answer that question? What do what kind of therapists 225 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:33.639 do you want to be? YEA, Yeah, how do you 226 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:35.919 want to show up? And to what do we are 227 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:42.320 you sharing your vulnerability or being vulnerable within it within therapy. 228 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:45.279 I think the most important thing is I want my 229 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:47.879 clients to feel safety, you know, and as we know 230 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:51.159 with trauma, we really struggle with feeling an internal sense 231 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:53.600 of safety. Right, We don't even sometimes we don't even 232 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:56.159 know what feels safe or what's the difference between safety 233 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:56.840 and survival. 234 00:11:56.919 --> 00:11:59.360 And so part of that is modeling that. 235 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:01.960 For my client and showing up with an essence and 236 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:05.679 a presence of safety and being able to mirror that 237 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:08.519 and being able to support them. And so part of 238 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.039 that work is being understanding about what creates safety for 239 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:13.559 me and how can I show up and create an 240 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.639 environment of safety for my clients, creating a sense of belonging, 241 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:19.320 a connection where maybe they haven't had a safe one 242 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:20.320 in a really long time. 243 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:23.519 Right, So how it get specific? How do how does 244 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:27.440 one create a safe environment with it? What do you do? So? 245 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:30.480 I think when it starts in the therapeutic process, I 246 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:33.279 want to really hear, once again, hear someone's story. I 247 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:36.440 want to understand where are you coming from? What lenses 248 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:38.480 are you what lenses are you looking at the world 249 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:42.519 through without its lens of judgment? Right, putting my own biases, 250 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:46.000 putting my own experiences, aside and really challenging those with 251 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:48.600 my own therapeutic work and making sure that I'm staying 252 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:49.840 open and present. 253 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:51.720 So I'm hearing your story. I'm understanding. 254 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:55.200 We're creating treatment goals, right, we're collaborating on this. We're 255 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:58.559 talking about, Okay, what if you could you feel the 256 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:00.960 sense of healed, if you could feel connected? What would 257 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:03.440 that be like? Right, let's talk about that. And then 258 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:05.840 we're making treatment plans together, and we're making sure and 259 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:08.840 I'm checking in right, and I'm saying, how are things going? 260 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:11.559 Is this helpful? Is this not helpful? I'm checking my 261 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:12.159 own self. 262 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:15.720 You know, I'm opening a collaborative relationship with a client 263 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:18.159 to say, hey, if something doesn't stick with you, or 264 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:20.039 if it feels icky, you tell me that. 265 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:20.559 Right. 266 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:23.879 This is a relationship where I want to create safety 267 00:13:23.879 --> 00:13:25.720 where you may have never been able to do that 268 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:27.720 in your family system, or you've never been able to 269 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:30.200 challenge somebody and say, you know what, Michelle, this doesn't 270 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:33.159 seem like it's working. So let's move, let's pivot. And 271 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.200 I welcome that. I talk about that a lot, right, 272 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:38.679 I'm calling that out. I'm noticing, Oh, you responded this way, 273 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:41.440 Does that mean something right. So I'm really trying to 274 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:45.720 build this constant awareness of my clients and every moment 275 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:49.399 and every second in their sessions and beyond right, in communication, beyond, 276 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:51.879 and I think that that builds trust, that builds a 277 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:54.639 sense of safety, and hopefully over time that opens up 278 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:57.279 a sense of vulnerability for their stories to be heard. 279 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:03.879 When you first started doing this, when you first started 280 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:10.360 working with individuals who maybe experienced trauma into personal trauma 281 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:14.840 more specifically, what was it like for you? 282 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.919 It's it's difficult because of course you can't take yourself 283 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:22.320 out of your experience with the work that we do, right, 284 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:24.279 We're always going to be a human, and this idea 285 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:26.720 of like leaving yourself at the door, I think is 286 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:31.440 a little unrealistic as a human as a therapist, and honestly, 287 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:33.080 people want human humanity and. 288 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:34.200 Their therapies, right. 289 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:38.399 So I'm also recognizing that and thinking that you know, 290 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:40.320 if you want to talk to your robot, you could, 291 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:43.639 but you're not. You're here with me, right, So what 292 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:48.279 level of honesty and integrity and vulnerability can I bring 293 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.759 to you and understand and share what self disclosure is 294 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:53.440 appropriate when is it not appropriate? 295 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:53.840 Right? 296 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:56.639 And so also finding avenues to share my story I 297 00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:58.840 think that are outside of my therapeutic work. Like this 298 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:02.279 itself is very valuable because I can share these resources 299 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:04.440 with my current clients, and I can let them in 300 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:06.840 to different parts of my inner world so that they 301 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:08.799 don't feel so alone. I think it could feel so 302 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:12.440 one sided with a therapeutic relationship where they're spilling their 303 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.240 guts and then I'm not even telling you anything about myself. 304 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:17.720 So if you are curious about that, here's all this 305 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:21.480 avenue to understand me as a human, because that also matters. 306 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:23.919 You want to you want to believe me and understand 307 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:26.240 me as a human as well as a therapist. Right, 308 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:28.000 A lot of people do at least. 309 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.360 Right, and that you know there, I guess it was 310 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:35.559 a time and a place for that one sidedness, right 311 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:39.080 with sechon analysis. I mean that certainly was present for 312 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:46.159 a long time. People still practice that. But how did 313 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:52.519 you learn the importance of being vulnerable within the therapeutic relationship? 314 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:56.240 Were there moments or experiences you've had were like, oh 315 00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:01.279 my god, you know, yeah, I can share this, but 316 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:01.720 not that. 317 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:03.600 Yeah, you know. 318 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:05.679 In my early work, I did a lot of community 319 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:08.840 mental health, so I worked in like high schools with 320 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:12.559 at risk youth or like teen treatment centers, things like that, 321 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:17.080 And I especially found with that population the realness, the 322 00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:21.519 genuineness created this bridge of connection. Right, So if I 323 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:24.200 sometimes the self disclosure, like for example, I remember a 324 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:26.120 girl that I had, I worked in an at risk 325 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:28.799 youth I did groups all the time, so that was 326 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:30.960 like my first job as I would just do group 327 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:34.000 after group, seven eight groups a day and being able 328 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:36.720 to understand those group dynamics, and maybe there was I 329 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:39.279 remember there was one student that really struggled with the group, 330 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:40.960 so I'd pull them aside and I'd say, hey, what's 331 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.799 going on here, right, like what are you struggling? And 332 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:45.919 they actually had a death in their family and I 333 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:47.679 was able to solve That was one of the first 334 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:50.440 times I self disclosed about my father and my loss. 335 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:54.960 And after that, that relationship with that with that particular 336 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:57.960 group participant was amazing. She started showing up, she wanted 337 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:00.879 to participate. She's like, can I come to two times 338 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:02.039 a day? Miss Michelle? 339 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.279 And I'm like absolutely. So, you know, it's sometimes. 340 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.559 You have to give a little vulnerability for someone else 341 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:10.160 to give back and create this ping pong effect. 342 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.240 And I think I learned that through that experience. 343 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:17.880 Yeah, yeah, I love that. Several several months ago, when 344 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.039 I was ready to get back into therapy, I had 345 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:25.279 moved and I called the therapist i'd been working with 346 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:29.640 in California and I emailed her and she said she 347 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:33.079 was no longer seeing clients and I was like, oh 348 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.200 my god, but she could recommend some She recommended three 349 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.920 other people. Yeah. I was like, all right, I'll check 350 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:42.160 these people out. So I did. And the first person 351 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:46.599 and they were all competent, I'm sure, but the first 352 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:49.720 person I contacted, I emailed and we ended up having 353 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.039 a video chat and she spent like fifteen minutes telling 354 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:56.799 me like what modality she was gonna use and what interview. 355 00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.920 I was like, I don't care. I want a friggin 356 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:04.960 human being. Yeah, you know, I want a human being. 357 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:12.319 And I think there's oftentimes a tendency for therapists to 358 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:16.200 feel like they're walking on eggshelves. You know, I can't 359 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:21.920 share this. My god, I'm going And what are your 360 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:26.160 thoughts on that? Do you feel that, first of all, 361 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:28.440 do you agree with that? Do you think that's changing? 362 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.480 Do you feel people or the therapy the therapist's landscape now 363 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:34.599 is shifting. What are your thoughts. 364 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.599 I totally see that shifting, especially with the types of 365 00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:41.759 clients that are attracted to me. And I've noticed that 366 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:45.559 as I step more into my authenticity, the right clients 367 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:49.279 find me. Right, So I'm trying to set those precedence 368 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:51.279 in the beginning that it is a safe place. 369 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:52.000 Please let me know. 370 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:53.799 I always say, like one of the first things that 371 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:55.519 come out in my mouth is I'm a human. 372 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:56.759 I'm gonna screw up. 373 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:01.599 Please utilize this as an opportunity to practice calling me out. Hey, Michelle, 374 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:03.960 this is wrong, or hey, by the way, right. So 375 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:07.440 I'm always constantly giving that feedback to clients and hoping 376 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:10.160 to open that door. And I'm noticing that as I 377 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.440 step more into my authenticity, the right client seem to 378 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:17.559 find me and attract me. So it's almost a mutual process. 379 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:20.160 It's almost like a magnet. Is if I step into 380 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:22.319 my authenticity, the right things are going to attract and 381 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:23.599 the wrong things are going to repel. 382 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:24.000 Right. 383 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.839 Oh well, yeah, I love that. That's very interesting where 384 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:33.839 you have a very open, accepting presence about you. You know, 385 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:38.200 you have a very quick smile that certainly puts me 386 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:40.079 at ease and I can. I'm sure it puts a 387 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:44.480 lot of clients that he used too. And also, I 388 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.880 think what you do when you say, you know, I'm 389 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:51.799 a human, I'm going to screw up what that does? Really? 390 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:57.039 It also shifts that dynamic right from the therapist being 391 00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:01.279 up here to the client being way down here. It 392 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:04.640 levels the playing field in a sense. Oh yeah, because 393 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:05.680 power is the client. 394 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:09.200 There's such a power dynamic when you're stepping into a 395 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:12.160 dynamic for therapy. And I always tell my clients too, 396 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.359 like you are the expert on you. You know yourself better 397 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:17.440 than I ever, will that anybody else? 398 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:20.680 Ever? Will you have the valuable information here? 399 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:23.559 So I might say something and it might not fit 400 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:26.960 with you, and that's your opportunity to say yeah, no 401 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:30.440