WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.919 If you ask anybody in the leadership position at a 2 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:06.000 large financial institution, they know the answer. Yes, I'm going 3 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:08.199 to tokenize everything. All of my assets are going to 4 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:10.439 be on the blockchain. They see the future, they know 5 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:11.519 exactly where it's going. 6 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:15.640 I'm curious how KPMNG as well as those clients are 7 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:18.320 viewing the technology or where we're at in the timeline. 8 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:21.879 Is it simply a proof of concept or they recognize, Hey, 9 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:24.320 this is the future we need to start building. 10 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:27.039 Yeah, we're not full speed ahead yet, but we're definitely 11 00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:32.799 well past the moment of inertia. 12 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:37.000 This episode is brought to you by I Trust Capital. 13 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:41.359 I Trust Capital gives you a great alternative for buying, selling, 14 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:44.560 and custoding your crypto assets. 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And folks, I'm 37 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:00.000 a user of the platform. I have an account with them. 38 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:02.040 If you sign up with my link, which is I 39 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:05.640 Trustcapital dot com slash Thinking Crypto, you can get an 40 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.439 exclusive one hundred dollars funding bonus. So go learn about 41 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:14.000 this great, safe, and awesome way to buy, sell, and 42 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:17.199 custod your crypto. A great alternative once again with tax 43 00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:21.159 advantages and a lot of safety, very safe compared to 44 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:24.199 many exchanges, and all the links will be in a description. 45 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:25.039 Check it out. 46 00:02:25.639 --> 00:02:28.840 Hey, everybody, welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, 47 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:31.319 Tony Edward, and joining me today is Tony Tutz, who 48 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:35.680 is the principle of KPMG's Alternative Investment tax practice and 49 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:40.039 leader of the Digital Asset tax practice. KPMG is one 50 00:02:40.039 --> 00:02:43.439 of the big four professional account services companies in the world, 51 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.639 and Tony is a renowned crypto authority with over twenty 52 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:51.479 years of experience advising alternative investment clients on tax structuring 53 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:55.879 and digital asset strategy. Tony, great to have you, Thanks, Tony, 54 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:57.960 great to be here. Thanks for me having me here today. 55 00:02:58.400 --> 00:02:58.599 Yeah. 56 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:01.319 Isn't it a bit weirre that we're both named Tony 57 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:03.400 and we're you know, it's going to be back and forth, 58 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:04.039 Tony Tony. 59 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:07.960 That's all right. I love it, Love that Tony's out there. 60 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:09.639 Absolutely well. 61 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:13.560 I'm excited for this conversation to dive into KPMG's digital 62 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:16.560 asset solutions and services and much more. I would love 63 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:18.639 to start with your background. Tell us about where you're 64 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:20.159 from and your professional background. 65 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:23.960 Yeah. Sure, from the Northeast, born in New York, grew 66 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:26.000 up in New Jersey, still in New York, so I 67 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:29.319 never really went very far. I am a tax lawyer 68 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:31.280 by background, So even though I do work at a 69 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:34.680 professional accounting firm, not an accountant, not a CPA, I 70 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:37.560 am a lawyer. Yeah, and you know, I've been doing 71 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:43.599 tax advisory work inside the financial services realm my entire career. 72 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:49.400 I probably got into crypto around twenty fourteen ish and 73 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:53.879 never really looked back, you know, at KPMG. I mean 74 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:58.319 it really took off probably around twenty seventeen, and we 75 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:01.840 have ever since that time. I'm invested a large amount 76 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:04.280 of time and money into the practice. As you might 77 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:07.719 imagine that this scope of people out there who are 78 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:11.319 very well versed in accounting, tax and advisory, which is 79 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:14.319 our core functions, that also are very well versed at 80 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:17.920 crypto as not a lot of people. So there's the 81 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:20.560 fight for talent is it is fierce out there, and 82 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:22.680 you have to really know your way around. And so 83 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:25.160 we've done a great job of acquiring that talent here. 84 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:28.000 So it's been very good. That's amazing. 85 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.439 So you mentioned you got into the industry in twenty fourteen, 86 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:34.680 so Tony, what was your first encounter and that aha 87 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:35.319 moment for you? 88 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:39.279 Yeah, No, the aha moment came later, But the twenty 89 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:42.360 fourteen was really that. You know, my background, since I 90 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:45.160 was always in financial services when I first started in 91 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:47.920 this business, I'm going to age myself. But it was 92 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:52.639 that time where derivatives were becoming very big on Wall Street, 93 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:57.079 and the derivatives market, much like the crypto market today, 94 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:00.040 at that time, didn't have a lot of rules for 95 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:03.120 so we were trying to play not just in tax 96 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:06.319 but also with the SEC the CFTC, you know, basically 97 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:08.360 going by analogy, Well it kind of looks like this, 98 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:10.040 it kind of looks well, maybe we could treat it 99 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:12.800 like that. And then slowly but surely we got some 100 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:15.480 rules about that. And so I do got this large 101 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.720 financial product background, and so when crypto questions started to 102 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:22.040 come to the four, you know, people pointed to me 103 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:24.360 and said, well, you know it should be similar, why 104 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:26.680 don't you take a crack at it. So I did 105 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:28.519 start getting into it, but that was really from a 106 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:31.879 kind of tax wunk type of view. And then finally, 107 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.360 like I said, around twenty seventeen, things really started to 108 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.120 take off. I started to spend a lot more time 109 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:39.439 with it. I started to invest in it myself. I 110 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:41.720 should have invested in twenty fourteen, Tony. That would have 111 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:44.079 been much better and I wouldn't be working today. That's 112 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:47.240 another story, so but it did that. So basically, maybe 113 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:49.959 twenty seventeen the aha moment went off and you know 114 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:54.399 you basically and by the way, shame on me. I 115 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:57.800 should have recognized in twenty fourteen because I was focused 116 00:05:57.839 --> 00:05:59.959 on crypto when I really should have been focused on 117 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.959 blockchain technology. Right, That's what I should have saw as 118 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:07.879 what's coming down the road. Forget crypto altogether. If you 119 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:11.319 look at our core financial services companies, I don't care 120 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:14.120 if it's asked at management, it's banking, it's payments, whatever. 121 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:18.600 It's all about distributed ledger technology and how that can 122 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:22.199 help that all those traditional businesses function at a much 123 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:23.480 more efficient rate. 124 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:27.040 That's such a great point because I think sometimes we 125 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:29.519 put the card before the horse, where people are so 126 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.680 focused on the token they forget guess what. The token 127 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:36.120 wouldn't exist if there wasn't a network, a blockchain that's 128 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:39.360 actually functioning that you can build on. Right, and we often, 129 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:43.120 well majority of people look at the technology as oh 130 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:46.199 I can get this token, but they're missing the bigger picture. 131 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:48.439 They're missing the forest for the trees that the network 132 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:51.399 that it's working globally twenty four to seven, that you 133 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:54.360 can build on to change the way people transact with 134 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:55.360 each other and much more. 135 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:59.319 Yeah. No, absolutely, in fact, for our more traditional clients. 136 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:02.079 So the large bold bracket banks, if you will, you know, 137 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:06.399 in the large asset managers for them not not you know, 138 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:09.600 disparage crypto in any way, shape or form, but they 139 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:12.720 don't care. They just don't even care about crypto because 140 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:16.120 that's really very secondary to their world with you know, 141 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:18.759 with the things that are happening now that's important to them. 142 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:24.000 They're going to tokenize the real world assets, stocks, bonds, currencies, commodities, 143 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:27.800 and they're going to run everything on blockchain. And you know, 144 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:29.360 for some of the things that they do, if you 145 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:32.759 think about it, you know, we're most people everyday people. 146 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.160 They think about stocks and bombs, Well, those already trade 147 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:38.680 pretty fast. Uh, there's room for improvement for sure, and 148 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:41.319 they will be tokenized eventually. But think about the things 149 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:43.879 that don't trade fast, the things that trade clunky, and 150 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:48.399 I'm talking about you know, bank loans, you know, clos 151 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:52.920 private equity interests. You know, try moving those you know, 152 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:55.680 those stack of documents takes weeks. You know, if I 153 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:57.959 can reduce that to seconds and I can put it 154 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.319 in a form that maybe I can post up some 155 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:03.279 third party is collateral for a loan. I've just introduced 156 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:06.199 liquidity where there was none. So you know, for the 157 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:10.639 traditional finance players, that's the big deal. Crypto is nice 158 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:13.839 to have, but that's not the prize. Yeah. 159 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:16.519 Absolutely, And you know you mentioned a lot of the 160 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:18.399 firms that you're working with, and so far they're looking 161 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:22.199 to tokenize, they're looking to leverage blocking technology. I'm curious 162 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:25.839 how KPMG as well as those clients are viewing the 163 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.319 technology or where we're at in the timeline. I guess 164 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:32.120 is it simply a proof of concept or they recognize, hey, 165 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:34.960 this is the future we need to start building. It's 166 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:37.039 as if that, you know, when folks had that moment 167 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:39.120 with the internet, guess what, we got to start moving 168 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.799 our business online as well to get exposure. 169 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:42.399 Is it at? 170 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:43.639 Are we at that point? 171 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:46.879 Yeah? We're not full speed ahead yet, but we're definitely 172 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.480 well past the moment of inertia for sure, because if 173 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:53.679 you ask anybody, anybody in the leadership position at a 174 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:57.200 large financial institution, they know the answer. Yes, I'm going 175 00:08:57.240 --> 00:08:59.360 to tokenize everything. All of my assets are going to 176 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:01.679 be on the blockchain. So they see the future, they 177 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:04.679 know exactly where it's going. We're not quite there yet though, 178 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:08.480 because there's some implementing rules that they need, because most 179 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:10.600 of these entities that we're talking about, and at least 180 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:14.200 in the financial services sphere, they're regulated, highly regulated, and 181 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:17.919 so until each of the regulators clarifies what they're able 182 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:21.200 to do with blockchain, it's slowing it down. So we're 183 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:23.559 still we're trying to run, but our feet are still 184 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.879 in the mud. But I think that's probably twelve to 185 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:29.679 eighteen months of clearing up the mud and getting us, 186 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:31.440 you know, really getting some traction here. 187 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.159 Pardon the interruption. Hi, I'm Tony. I'm the host of 188 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:37.639 the Thinking Crypto podcast. I wanted to ask you if 189 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:40.080 you can please support the podcast by hitting the like 190 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:42.639 button subscribing. If you haven't as yet, you can leave 191 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:44.799 a comment below as well. And if you're listening on 192 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:47.879 a podcast platform such as Spotify, Apple, or wherever you 193 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:50.879 get your podcasts, please be sure to follow and hit 194 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:53.000 the five star rating. I'll let you get back to 195 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:54.559 the content. Thank you so much. 196 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:57.879 Give us an overview of KPMG's different services that you 197 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:01.600 provide to digital asset firms and even are you leveraging 198 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:03.279 blockchain internally and things like that. 199 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:06.519 Yeah, so the way that our client, first of all, 200 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:09.240 our service is right pretty simple. At the outset, which 201 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:13.279 is audit, tax and advisory, sounds fairly simple. But when 202 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.600 you break those open, what you'll see is like for audit, 203 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:19.519 for example, sure everybody knows if you have a financial 204 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:21.519 statement and people care about it, it's got to be 205 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:23.840 audited by a third party. We do that, but we 206 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:27.320 also do like internal control attestations. You might hear that 207 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:29.519 referred to as like sock onn sock too, So all 208 00:10:29.559 --> 00:10:32.159 the service providers kind of need that. We even do 209 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:35.799 inside the digital asset round with the stable coin asset 210 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:38.879 reserve attestations things of that nature. So that's where the 211 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:42.879 audit at testation stuff is coming from. But even in tax, 212 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:46.000 I mean, we do tax consulting and tax compliance for sure, 213 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:49.799 but even inside of that it gets broken out into 214 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:53.600 smaller sectors. For example, you know, federal, international, state, and 215 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:57.399 local indirect tax, which is your sales tax, back tax, 216 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:01.039 things like that, transfer pricing, valuation, and like I said, 217 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:04.360 for the past you know, eight nine years, I've been 218 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:06.960 hiring people all around the globe, so it's not just 219 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.679 the United States, it's a global operation. And I've been 220 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:14.960 hiring people with digital assets, specialties and special knowledge in 221 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:17.440 each of these areas. So if you think about that, 222 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:19.279 that's a lot of people. And then finally on our 223 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:22.600 advisory side, which is consulting, I mean that's everything from 224 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:27.840 you know, strategy consulting, operating models, compliance and regulatory consulting. 225 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:30.360 Building out and this is a big one by the way. 226 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:32.600 People don't like to hear it, but it's true, building 227 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:36.320 out the B SAAA, M L or KYC. You know, 228 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:40.080 even though you're on chain, these things still really matter. 229 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:42.679 You still have to you know, get people's information, know 230 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:44.519 who you're dealing with, make sure we're not dealing with 231 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:49.120 sanctioned people and entities. And then finally, as we start 232 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:54.960 doing like real world asset tokenization, enablement and integration become 233 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:58.440 really important. Right because when you look inside pick your 234 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:01.639 largest bank in the world, you'll see like myriad of 235 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:04.080 systems that they have to track all their assets and 236 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:06.759 do all the operations that they have to do. And 237 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.480 now they're doing things on chain and they need to 238 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:12.960 get that on chain information into the legacy system so 239 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:15.360 they can do their regular reporting and everything, or vice 240 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.320 versa as the case may be. But that's a huge challenge, 241 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.960 and so Advisory Group is doing all that kind of 242 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:24.879 stuff and then of course custody and security huge have 243 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:27.639 to be able to do that. So being able to 244 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:30.639 get these institutions to be able to do things within 245 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:34.120 their regulatory framework and do them safely and do the 246 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:36.080 reporting that they need to do. All you know, to 247 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:38.840 any stakeholder, whether it's a shareholder or it's a regulator, 248 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.360 are taxed. So that's where KPMG is helping inside each 249 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:46.039 of those side hopes. Yeah, that's incredible. 250 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:49.399 You know you mentioned the onset attestation for like stable 251 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:51.519 coin issuers, and I know you know that's been a 252 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:54.799 pain point in the early days of the crypto industry. 253 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:58.480 But now to your point with the regulators, you know, 254 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:00.720 putting out the guidance and and the rules of the 255 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:03.919 road and so forth, these your services are going to 256 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:07.919 be so important because I often state, you know, don't 257 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:11.360 trust verify right, especially when it comes to digital assets. 258 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:14.039 So it's really great that you're helping a lot of 259 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:16.639 firms to do that and there can be more transparency. 260 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:18.639 Yeah, that was one of the one of the key 261 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:23.039 things that were in the Genius Act was you know, 262 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:26.759 with what normal people are responsible people in this space 263 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:29.240 always thought you should have anyway, right, I should have 264 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:33.399 some third party verify that these assets are here, and 265 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.879 hopefully you're also even verifying that the issuer is meeting 266 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:40.840 all of its requirements and has its loan, internal controls, 267 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:43.559 and it's doing everything right on its side. So in 268 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:47.120 the end, that's part of what Genius brings as a requirement. 269 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.279 Now, I know you can't give names of the clients, 270 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:53.639 but I'm curious what type of companies and industries and 271 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:56.320 these folks are working or leveraging your services. 272 00:13:57.200 --> 00:13:59.320 Yeah, so at this point I believe it or not. 273 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:03.440 I mean, yes, it was just really the financial institutions 274 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:07.200 and and even within financial institutions, really the big users 275 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:10.200 of our services on early days. As you might imagine, 276 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.600 We're the venture capital funds that were investing into this space, 277 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.440 and the hedge funds that wanted to trade the liquid 278 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:19.720 tokens that was those were the big users. But at 279 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:24.639 this point it runs the gamut everything from like the 280 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.919 development the blockchain development and app companies, uh, the infrastructure 281 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:34.120 and security providers, you know, the mining companies, the staking providers. Now, 282 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:37.159 of course we have these digital asset treasury companies. They 283 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:39.960 suck up a lot of time, but those are great clients, 284 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:42.399 by the way. Public companies, we love that kind of stuff. 285 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:46.519 The asset managers, both public and private, by the way. 286 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:51.120 So it's nice that we've been doing public funds outside 287 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:54.759 the United States for several years now, but as you know, 288 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:57.120 right now in the United States we have public funds. 289 00:14:57.159 --> 00:14:58.960 That's great, but we also do the private funds, like 290 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:02.840 I said, and then of course banking and payments that's huge. 291 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.399 That's a big space for that right now. But it 292 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:09.720 also believe it or not, it routinely now, I would say, 293 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.320 not just spotty, routinely. We are speaking to fortune two 294 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.679 point fifty global enterprise type of clients as they start 295 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:19.159 to use some form of digital asset in their own 296 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:21.639 business model. And it is happening regularly. 297 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:25.799 So safe to assume you guys have been seeing a 298 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:28.639 lot of demand, I'm sure, especially over the past here 299 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:30.960 you know, obviously we've been in a much more friendlier 300 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:33.279 environment for crypto here in the United States. But I 301 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:35.879 know you you're a global business. But even the EU 302 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:38.840 they passed the MECA regulations. I'm sure there's a lot 303 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.480 of demand for your services. Yeah, and it is a 304 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.159 global operation, and so you know some of the so 305 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:47.279 implementing things like MICA and KARF by the way, which 306 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:52.159 is an OACD reporting requirement, that's full steam ahead. We've 307 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:54.440 been doing that for a while now, we're doing that today. 308 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:57.200 A lot of the US regulations, believe it or not, 309 00:15:57.240 --> 00:15:59.159 even though we hear about them all the time, they're 310 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:01.519 not quite big, implemented yet or on the path to 311 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:03.600 doing that. So we're doing some of that in the 312 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:04.720 United States as well. 313 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:09.200 You know. Funnily enough, in the last administration, we ended 314 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:13.840 up by demand helping clients some move out of the 315 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:17.240 United States, and now given the current administration, we're moving 316 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:20.240 them back to the United States. But you know that 317 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.120 as main it's busy time to many, as you might imagine, 318 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:25.519 busy time all around from like you said, from the 319 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:27.960 very smallest companies, the ones that have the ideas that 320 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:31.519 are developing their tech companies you know, to pick your 321 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.240 nice fortune two fifty companies. So it's it's robusts for sure. 322 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:40.120 And how are you handling the different blockchain networks, the 323 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.440 different types of assets internally, because it seems like it's 324 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:46.360 a lot to handle, right, because there's so many blockchains 325 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:49.279 out there, Tony. Obviously there's your top ones like Ethan, 326 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.559 Salona and much more. Plus you have stable coins, plus 327 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:55.600 you have tokenized assets, plus you may have NFTs and 328 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:58.960 name coins and all these things. How are you handling 329 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.240 all of these differ and components. 330 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.920 Yeah, so you know, we we end up having to 331 00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:08.880 do a few things. One, having a group of people 332 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.839 who just stays on top of this, right, because things 333 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:16.599 are changing every day. The interoperability is an issue for 334 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:18.680 our clients and it's something we try to help with, 335 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:21.640 but it impacts us on a different way, which is 336 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:25.680 especially on our audit side. Right, if there's a new 337 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:28.599 chain here or there, there's a new token, if it's 338 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:32.440 not supported by our tools, well then we can't verify it. 339 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:36.279 We can't you see it, and that's not acceptable. And 340 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:39.519 so what we've done at KPMG is we found that 341 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:42.440 outside tools, it's just too hard to use you'd have 342 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:44.240 to pick up so many of them and keep on 343 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:46.640 top of them, and then of course we'd have to 344 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:49.839 verify that they're working correctly. We said, forget it, we'll 345 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:52.240 build our own. So long ago we built our own 346 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:55.839 blockchain explore. We call it chain fusion. This allows us 347 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:58.279 to actually just go on chain and you know, we 348 00:17:58.599 --> 00:18:01.519 when we have a team of developers that's constantly updating 349 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:03.599 that for everything that we need so that we can 350 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:07.960 see things and do things. It also the the way 351 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:10.480 things are rapidly evolving and that not everything is on 352 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:13.240 the same chain kind of thing also creates another problem 353 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:16.279 for us, which is for our clients too. For those 354 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.480 regulated clients who hold those assets, a lot of them 355 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:22.319 have to hold it in in what's called the qualified custodian. 356 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:25.440 But then what happens is if it's new, the custodian 357 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:28.279 didn't update their system, so the qualified custodia can't hold 358 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:30.440 the asset and they end up having to hold it 359 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:34.640 you know what we call self custody. Auditors hate self custody, right, 360 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:39.319 it's just too it's dangerous. So you know, we that's 361 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.319 something we are all dealing with, you know, as an 362 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:44.880 industry and hopefully we get to a place one day 363 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:48.880 where you know, it's a little more generic interoperability and 364 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:52.559 we don't have those kind of one off problems. Yeah, 365 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:52.960 for sure. 366 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:54.839 And it's really great to hear that you guys, guys 367 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:58.960 have built your own proprietary blockchain explorer, because I'm always curious, 368 00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.480 you know, how firms like yourself handled that. You know, 369 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:05.759 even myself as someone who's in crypto every day, to 370 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:07.559 keep up with all these things, it's just a lot 371 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.119 of work. But I guess that's where you mentioned earlier, 372 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:12.880 you're hiring folks across the globe to help you do 373 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:13.559 all these things. 374 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:16.440 Yeah, and you know, if you think about our business, 375 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.680 you would think the people that we hire are all, 376 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:23.119 you know, tax or audit type people one tape or another. 377 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.680 But here's the know you know, and there's other examples too, 378 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:27.480 But this is a prime example where I have to 379 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:29.319 go out and I have to hire engineers. I have 380 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.519 to hire people who are blockchain specialists. They may not 381 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:35.079 know anything about auditing or tax With that, it's okay, 382 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:38.759 I need their services here. So yeah, no, it's definitely critical. 383 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:41.039 Are you leveraging AI in any way to help you 384 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:41.480 do all these. 385 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:45.200 Yeah, So AI is in everything that we do. I mean, 386 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:47.680 I mean not just in this space as you imagine 387 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:49.920 any professional services firm. I don't care if you're a 388 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:54.000 law firm, accounty firm, architecture. From the way the business 389 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:56.920 model is, you know, your time times your rate equals 390 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:00.240 your revenue. So anything you can do on this to 391 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.240 bring the time down goes right to the bottom line. 392 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:05.000 So yes, I mean it's a it's a huge focus 393 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:08.200 and trying very hard. I mean, one of the things 394 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.640 that AI is really cool, but you know a lot 395 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.240 of the tools that are out there in the market 396 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.519 we really can't use and not a lot of people 397 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:20.680 like us can't use because we have sensitive client data 398 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:23.759 that can't be shared and so and then also the 399 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.119 other issue with the large language models is that you know, 400 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:29.720 it's scraping data from things that might not be correct, 401 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.359 and so you end up building your own propriet harry 402 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:37.279 type of AI tool. We are not alone in that, 403 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.240 all the big four doing that. Luckily, you know we 404 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:42.640 started early. We've got a pretty good way down. But yes, 405 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:45.720 to answer your question, it's integrated and everything we can 406 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:49.000 do and wherever we can see a spot to add 407 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:52.000 efficiency by using it. Yes, and this is a great actually, 408 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:54.359 as we were just saying, you know, things here move 409 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:56.440 so fast and there's so many new things, and you 410 00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:58.839 try to keep up as much as you can. But 411 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:01.200 I can have AI screwing data from all over the 412 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:04.079 places and synthesizing that for me so that every morning 413 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:05.680 I can get a nice reports and you know, here 414 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:07.200 are some of the new things that you know hit 415 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:09.599 the market today, and you know, basically save a little 416 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:11.160 time that way, and then try to pick out what's 417 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:12.039 really important for us. 418 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:15.079 Yeah, it's running twenty four to seven, doesn't need to 419 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.160 sleep or eat, and I could have that submarine ready 420 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:19.720 for you when you're ready to clock in. 421 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:22.240 Yeah. No, And I think you know some of our clients, 422 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:25.079 especially in asset management in banking, you know, people who 423 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:27.839 do risk control and things like that. The twenty four 424 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:32.400 seven trading idea, while it's fantastic and I know that 425 00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:34.759 does a lot of great things, it also has a 426 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:37.720 bad thing, which is, you know, for markets, do you 427 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.200 have the right systems in place to risk control for 428 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.119 trading outside in normal hours? And you know, how how 429 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.200 are you handling that from a risk perspective? And so 430 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:48.640 AI is really good for that, because you know, you 431 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.400 can set parameters for things to trade or not trade, 432 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:53.920 or block trades, whatever the case may be, so that 433 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:56.079 if you're sleeping or something, you know, you can at 434 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.920 least avoid a disaster. Yeah. Absolutely. 435 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.960 I would love to get your thoughts on Senator Lumis's 436 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:06.359 crypto tax bill and the implications that would have on 437 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.759 the digital asset taxation and reporting and much more, because 438 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:13.039 a lot of these things are still being sorted out 439 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:15.359 and we're still waiting here in the United States for 440 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.839 concrete rules and for these things to be passed. 441 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:20.119 What is your take on her proposed bill. 442 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:24.160 Yeah, well, first of all, it's very welcome, Thank you, 443 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:28.279 Senator to Lumis for doing this. You know, this country 444 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:32.119 as a whole is behind in regulating digital assets versus 445 00:22:32.200 --> 00:22:35.559 the world, which is said, but we are where we are. 446 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.079 But that's in you know, normal regulations like sec CFTC. 447 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:42.400 You can see how that's moving along. Sol Liba Shortley's 448 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:47.480 getting there. Tax almost nothing, We've had almost nothing in 449 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:50.440 the way of tax regulation here. It's certainly tax legislation. 450 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:54.599 So there's three things happening right now. One is the 451 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:58.880 Loomis legislation. Obviously, that's in the Senate. Great there's also 452 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:04.039 a representative Max Miller and Stephen Horsford in the Congress. 453 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:07.279 That's not really legislation. They put out a thought piece 454 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:10.079 on that. It's that they're taking comments on and then 455 00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:11.599 they'll put it into a bill. And there's some really 456 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:13.480 great stuff in there. And then, of course we just 457 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:17.039 had over the past summer, the President's Digital Asset Working 458 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:20.000 Group put out their priorities and you can see each 459 00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:23.039 one of those priorities is being acted upon right now, 460 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:27.000 and so all of those have tax components. So yeah, 461 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:29.079 the ones that are in there, I mean, believe it 462 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:33.039 or not, the bulk of these pieces of legislation are 463 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:36.440 like the brick and mortar stuff, like the plain obvious stuff. 464 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:40.680 I don't have rules right. For example, I think everybody 465 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:43.640 who trades crypto is very well aware that you know, 466 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:47.039 the washstyle rule does not apply to crypto, not because 467 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:48.960 it's a great loophole, it's just when they wrote the rule, 468 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:51.880 crypto didn't exist, so it's not in there. But and 469 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:54.680 so there's a ton of pieces in the tax code 470 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:57.599 like that, where it says when you're reading the text 471 00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.400 of the statute, it says when you do this with 472 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:03.119 stock or securities, and it's repeated all over the code. 473 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:07.000 Every time that statute says stocker securities, you can't use 474 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:10.119 that piece. And sometimes that's hurtful, sometimes it's helpful, like 475 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:13.119 in the Lost help So there's a little bit of 476 00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:16.440 fixing that. And so most of these pieces of legislation 477 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.000 are just going through and they're taking those little underlying 478 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:25.039 things like for example, when asset managers trade assets from 479 00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:28.279 within the United States for people who live outside the 480 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:31.799 United States, we never say, oh, you know, you foreigner, 481 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:34.480 you're all of a sudden the US taxpayer because you 482 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:37.079 had a US asset manager managing your assets. We never 483 00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:39.240 do that. And the reason we don't is because in 484 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:41.519 the tax code there's a safe harbor that says, well, 485 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.519 if you're trading stocker securities, that doesn't bring you into 486 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.480 the US. Well, it doesn't say that for crypto. So 487 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.119 it's a big problem. Now we've worked around it in 488 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.960 the interim, but this tax legislation would say, you know, 489 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.000 you would just fix that, we'd add that, Yeah, crypto 490 00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:57.599 at too, you can't do that. Also, you know, we 491 00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:00.960 all lend crypto. If you trade CRYP, you lend crypto, 492 00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:04.079 and that there's a there's a rule that says that 493 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:08.000 lending stocker securities out doesn't cause a taxable disposition. Again, 494 00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:10.640 doesn't apply to us, so we've been working around in 495 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:12.920 the interim. But this rule, these rules will fix that. 496 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:15.000 So a lot of good stuff there just brick and 497 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:18.319 mortar stuff, but there's also some very specific stuff for crypto, 498 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:22.279 which is great. Which is each of these pieces of 499 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.680 advice or legislation, as the case may be, they call 500 00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:31.000 for deminimous exemptions, which is great because people always said 501 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:33.079 since the beginning of crypto, well, if I go out 502 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:37.039 and I buy a cup of coffee with bitcoin, you 503 00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:39.759 shouldn't tax me on the bitcoin. Now, I don't know 504 00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:42.599 if anybody is actually using bitcoin to buy coffee anymore. 505 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:44.319 I would use a stable coin. But be that as 506 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:48.720 it may, you do find those that in the legislation 507 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.319 that there is some deminimus exemption. People have also been 508 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:57.079 calling for no taxable gain or loss. If you have 509 00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:59.599 to dispose of a digital asset to pay gas fees. 510 00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:02.200 They think about it, You know, why are you doing 511 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:03.960 that to me? I had to pay gaspies I was 512 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:06.400 I wasn't trying to profit or you know, from my 513 00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:09.480 crypto is just paying gaspees like I had to. So 514 00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:12.559 those are in the legislation. That also one of the 515 00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:17.119 things that the US did put out some rules a 516 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:20.279 year or so ago on crypto. It's not the ones 517 00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:23.039 that most people think about, though, it's the ten ninety 518 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:26.880 nine reporting. So people just now probably just got their 519 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:30.960 ten ninety nine DA from their exchanges they trade on 520 00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:35.480 centralized exchanges. One of the things that maybe got overlooked 521 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.680 in that rule was the ten ninety nine DA reporting 522 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:44.279 actually does apply to stable coins, which is weird. Why 523 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:46.119 do I have to report on stable coins because if 524 00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:48.559 I sold it, it was I bought it at a dollar, 525 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:50.720 I sold it at a dollar. Why do you make 526 00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:53.559 me do this? But the truth is is minor mighty 527 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:57.240 little penny penny, you know, differences here and there, and 528 00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.880 it gets picked up and nasby reported should not be 529 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:02.240 and so that's also in this legislation. Let's fix that. 530 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:05.359 Let's not have this reporting for stable plans and that 531 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:08.720 kind of thing. So there's some good things in there, 532 00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:12.799 and there's also like maybe other things that you don't 533 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:16.680 think about but are real, which is people sometimes donate 534 00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:20.279 their crypto to charity. That's right, right, should be easy. 535 00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:23.000 But believe it or not, you have to go out 536 00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:26.359 and get a qualified appraisal if it's over five thousand dollars. 537 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:28.400 Why would you need to do that when I can 538 00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:31.440 just look on you know, some exchange and get the price. 539 00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:33.680 I have no idea. That is the rule. So this 540 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:35.960 legislation would change that as well. So there's a myriad 541 00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.519 of little things in there, but all of it is 542 00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:41.279 really good. Each one of those things. The President's Working Group, 543 00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.240 the Miller Horsford Bill, and Lewis, but they're all a 544 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:47.559 little different, but they're trying to get out a lot 545 00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:51.160 of the same things. So hopefully there will be you know, 546 00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:54.039 some they'll bring it all together and we'll get a 547 00:27:54.039 --> 00:27:55.839 good bill out of it. One of the really nice 548 00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:58.880 things about that Miller Horseford Bill is the they have 549 00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:02.319 a provision in there is you're mining and staking rewards 550 00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:06.880 that you have a choice. The base rule is they're 551 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:09.880 not taxable upon receipt, which is the current IRS rule. 552 00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:13.559 They're rather they're not they're taxable only when you sell them. 553 00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:16.000 That's great. That's in the Loomis Bill too, by the way, 554 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:19.359 But they add another provision which is an election. If 555 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.079 you want to elect to be taxable upon receipt, you can. 556 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:24.279 And you might say, well, why do I want to 557 00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:28.400 do that? The reason is, if I get a staking 558 00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:32.759 reward today and it's worth ten dollars, but I believe 559 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:34.640 in a few months from now it's going to be 560 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:37.519 one hundred dollars, i'd rather get taxed on the ten 561 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:41.480 now at ordinary income rates, and then later when I 562 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:44.480 want to sell, I'll get tax capital gain rates. So 563 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:48.039 that's great that that electivity is fantastic, and kudos to 564 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:49.680 them for thinking of that and putting that in there. 565 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.240 That's such a great point. I didn't think about that 566 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:55.039 because I do steak myself, and if I can get 567 00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:57.640 tax at the lower amount, especially like in a bear 568 00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:00.319 market like we are right now, that would be ideal 569 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.440 versus in a bowl. But dumb question on my part. 570 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.519 So when I sell, is it a capital gains tax 571 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.880 even though I didn't necessarily invest anything, it's just a reward. 572 00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:15.039 Yeah, that is a great question, Tony. And yeah, the 573 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:19.119 way tax policy works is anytime you get something without 574 00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:21.559 an exchange, it's got to be ordinary income. That's a 575 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:25.720 very generalized statement, but generally true. And so Yeah, so 576 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.119 in staking rewards, if you didn't elect to pick it 577 00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:32.039 up at income upon receipt, if this rule goes into 578 00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:34.759 place later when you sell it would be ordinary income. 579 00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:38.240 So again another another incentive to maybe elect to get 580 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:41.480 taxed earlier on the ordinary income to get capital gained later. 581 00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:44.599 But either way, I mean, hey, great to have the electivity, 582 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:46.680 you know, And there's a lot of people in the 583 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:50.240 market for things that their motives are different. I mean, 584 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:54.119 if you're a publicly traded mining company, you have this 585 00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:57.000 issue right now where you know you're getting taxed on 586 00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:00.200 all these the mining rewards as they come in, you're 587 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:02.640 going to hold them for a long time. And they're 588 00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:05.680 publicly traded, so they have these, you know, publicly available 589 00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:08.200 financial statements and it's making you a little wonky between 590 00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:11.039 the book and the tax. So for them, they would 591 00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:13.880 be that person or that entity that would say I'm 592 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:15.839 not going to be taxed till I sell it. But 593 00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:19.599 for you and I, we might make a different choice. 594 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:21.599 Yeah, and it's great, Like you said, it's great to 595 00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:24.279 have that option, and this bill is much welcome and 596 00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:26.480 hopefully they can get that through this year. I know 597 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:28.799 right now we're still waiting on the Clarity Act to 598 00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:31.640 get sorted out in the Senate. Did you have any 599 00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:34.599 thoughts on the CLARITYAC You know the impact that would 600 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:38.960 have on the industry and adoption, and now you know your. 601 00:30:38.839 --> 00:30:40.559 Best guest could have passed this year. 602 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:44.200 So I think it's tough tough to get it to 603 00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:47.039 pass this year. And the obviously reason for that is 604 00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:50.359 it's we have midterm elections coming up in November, and 605 00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:52.880 so you're really the only chance for it to pass 606 00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:56.720 this year is for them to do something between now 607 00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:01.279 and in May, otherwise forget it into the elections. But 608 00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:04.240 there is another possibility in the lame duck session after 609 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:07.920 the elections. Sometimes things passed in that little period, but 610 00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:14.039 who knows. But thankfully, though you might have noticed in 611 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:18.359 the past couple of weeks the Paul Atkins and Michael 612 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:24.559 Sillig so sec CFTC Chairman's came out they're working together. 613 00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:28.359 They have a memory animate understanding between the two institutions. 614 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:30.279 They put out some rules just this past week at 615 00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:33.160 the DC Blockchain Summit. They came out and said, hey, 616 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:36.319 here's how it's going to work, and basically it's Clarity 617 00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:39.759 is the Clarity Act. They're jumping the gun and they're 618 00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:43.319 just doing it regulatorily, which is nice, but obviously still 619 00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:45.920 want legislation so that the next chairman of the SEC 620 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:48.839 doesn't come in and just rewrite it. But they're they're 621 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.039 already going ahead full speed with this and so and 622 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:54.480 it is clarity because when you read down to clarity, 623 00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.720 and what it tries to do is say this is 624 00:31:56.759 --> 00:31:59.319 a commodity, this is a charity. Well that's what they 625 00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:01.559 just came out with saying that the SEC is only 626 00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:05.400 going to do uh, token ised securities and investment contracts 627 00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.480 that is, anything other than that is going to the CFTC. 628 00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:11.279 And then the next part of clarity is, hey, how 629 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:15.160 do how do we do registrations? Uh if we are 630 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.240 a security or we are an investment contract, but then 631 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:20.599 we want to evolve into a decentralized platform and have 632 00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:23.440 a commodity. Well they have that right, they have their 633 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.920 they have exemptions from registration or they have light registrations 634 00:32:26.920 --> 00:32:30.079 for funding. And then they have a provision in their 635 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:33.000 safe Harbor that they're putting together here that the agencies 636 00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:38.680 that once you are decentralized, you can you know, tell 637 00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:41.160 the SEC and you will just drop out of SEC 638 00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:45.799 regulation and you'll go over to the CFTC. So all good. 639 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:48.279 I think that's all passing into to your question, what 640 00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:51.200 is this going to do for the market. Uh? Really 641 00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:54.799 that is needed to allow capital to really start to 642 00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:57.880 flow into this space and allow some of the more 643 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:02.640 regulated counterparties to jump in and play a part in that, 644 00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:05.079 because you know, it's one thing for VC funds to 645 00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.359 do it, you know they're lightly regulated. It's another thing 646 00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:12.839 for a large fedial deposit insurance type of institution to 647 00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:13.160 do it. 648 00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:17.039 Yeah, great point, and fingers crossed they can get that 649 00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:17.640 done this year. 650 00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:18.559 That would be amazing. 651 00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:21.160 But I know, you know the sausage making process in 652 00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:24.960 DC it's not easy sometimes, but we made a lot 653 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:26.680 of progress. But to your point, you know, it was 654 00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:30.440 an excellent point that the meat and potatoes of what 655 00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:32.880 would be in the Clarity Act, the SEC and the 656 00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:35.440 CFTC are doing, which is great. They're putting out that 657 00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:38.839 guidance and rulemaking and we just need the rubber stamp 658 00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:41.160 of approval from a macro perspective with the Clarity Act 659 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:45.000 in place, but the regulatory agencies, if they're giving the 660 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:46.839 green light, I think that's that's. 661 00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:48.920 Okay, and By the way, this is not an accident, right, 662 00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:51.720 I think you know, the White House and the agencies 663 00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.680 recognized that, hey, you know, Clarity just might not make 664 00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:57.079 it this year, but let's not hold it up. Let's 665 00:33:57.160 --> 00:33:59.880 keep it going. And so the business is the rate 666 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:03.079 related entities. That's all they need, right to operate. All 667 00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:05.240 they need is to see if they're regulators, the cft 668 00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:07.920 SEC and the OCC in some cases to say you 669 00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:09.960 can do this. And by the way, kudos to the OCC. 670 00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:12.480 They came out early. They're like, go ahead, you guys 671 00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.880 can all do it. And so now that the SEC 672 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:18.119 and the CFTC are going to bless this in an 673 00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:21.159 official way, everybody can start doing business. And if the 674 00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:24.280 Clarity Act has to come next year, that's okay. It's okay. 675 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:26.719 At least we can we can keep going. Absolutely. 676 00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:30.400 I did want to ask you about tokenized assets and 677 00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:36.159 how how that is changing the way you're approaching as 678 00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.719 as a company reporting on these things. Because you have 679 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:44.519 the traditional setup, right which currently exists of stocks and equities, 680 00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:49.199 even gold, but those assets are now being tokenized. Does 681 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:52.079 it does a tokenized aspect make it more complicated or 682 00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:55.719 easier in different ways as far as reporting regulation and 683 00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:56.800 much more so. 684 00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:01.440 At the base case doesn't change anything, right, So if 685 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:04.360 my tokeniz is a sheriff's stock, still a shriff' stock 686 00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:07.960 and all the same roles apply. So that's one. But 687 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:10.840 when you dig down a little bit deeper, what ends 688 00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:12.920 up happening when you tokenize it? Not all the time, 689 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:16.119 but sometimes it allows the market participants to do something 690 00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:20.039 different with it. So now I tokenize the stock, I'm 691 00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:21.800 still treating it as a shaff stock. I'm still going 692 00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:23.719 to report on it just like it's a share of stock. 693 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:26.960 But now someone in the market is going to take 694 00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:29.280 that and they're going to put it into a DeFi 695 00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:33.960 platform or something. Well, now what do I do with it? 696 00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.440 It's still a share of stock? But what was that? 697 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:41.119 And for us on the tax side and by the way, 698 00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:43.239 on the audit side too, for a book purposes. So 699 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:47.400 when we transfer an asset into a DeFi protocol, did 700 00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:50.079 we dispose of it? Like do you de recognize that 701 00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:52.559 asset from your balance sheet and then recognize a new 702 00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:55.800 receipt token or no, do I still own it? And 703 00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:58.480 then from a tax perspective, same thing, did I dispose 704 00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:00.320 of it? Do I recognize gain or loss or did 705 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:02.360 I just lend it out? Did I do I have 706 00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:05.239 the right to get it back? You know what is that? 707 00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:08.599 And then if does rewards accumulating inside the DeFi protocol, 708 00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:11.400 which is usually the case, do I pick those up 709 00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:13.639 real time right now? Does it go into the price 710 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:16.480 of the token? Do I recognize it later? So and 711 00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:20.840 these are all these are hard. Those are really hard questions. 712 00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:23.840 And by the way, all of these pieces of legislation 713 00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:25.519 out there in the world, the one thing that they 714 00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:29.239 have in common, they basically kick the can down the 715 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:32.199 road on DeFi principally because we've got to get rules 716 00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:34.800 out as fast as we can, and DeFi is really hard. 717 00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:37.159 So we're going to come back to that. It's in 718 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:39.559 every piece of legislation, not just in the United States, 719 00:36:39.559 --> 00:36:41.079 all over the world. That's the issue. 720 00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:44.239 That's Yeah, to your point, that is a very tough one. 721 00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:46.480 And I see a lot of the regulators still struggling, 722 00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:49.840 not because they're anti DeFi, but just the educational aspect. 723 00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:53.400 And in addition, how do we make this work. It's 724 00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:56.000 a complex topic because. 725 00:36:56.679 --> 00:36:59.559 Maybe we're not there yet to go, you know, even 726 00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:02.199 for percent of the way with DEFIVE let alone, one 727 00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:05.760 hundred percent. So it's it's tough, especially transitioning a lot 728 00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.800 of the incumbents and you know, the current system over 729 00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:09.159 to that. 730 00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:12.400 Yeah, and you know what I was saying earlier, you know, 731 00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:14.440 when I started off my career and we were doing 732 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:18.360 this in derivatives when we didn't have rules. It's kind 733 00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:20.800 of the same. Like I remember back in those days, 734 00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:24.039 everybody digging through the actual contract for little bits of 735 00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:27.440 language to try to decipher, for example, was this a 736 00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:30.920 disposal of the underlying asset? What was I lending it? 737 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:32.840 Is this an option? Is a swap? Is it a 738 00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:36.159 futures contract? And you know I see that here too. 739 00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:39.440 People are making that, you know, for lack of any 740 00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:43.559 other tool. They're trying to get into the technology and 741 00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:46.000 dig down there and say, well, in this technology, the 742 00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:49.320 way this protocol works, the way it's written, here's what's 743 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:50.840 going to happen. I think we need to get to 744 00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:53.559 a place where we was in Ah, I'm not reading 745 00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:56.079 code in order to come up with the right tax rule. 746 00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.679 Let's have some bright line rules like if it did this, 747 00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:01.239 it's treated like that? Is that a treat like that? 748 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:05.079 Because trying to get behind you know, a smart contract 749 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.960 is not the place for a lawyer. So we'll get there. 750 00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:10.599 We'll get there. But yes, that is that's going to 751 00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:15.039 be secondary. And in the meantime, there are people like 752 00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:17.519 my tax professionals I have a KPMG who have just 753 00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:20.599 spent a ton of time with this and they see 754 00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:23.800 what market participants are doing. We take a look at 755 00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:26.039 what the tax risk is and we all come to 756 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:30.480 an understanding of listen, we don't have rules, but here's 757 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:32.280 how the industry is going to treat this for now 758 00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:34.920 until we do. Because what I say was when you 759 00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:38.320 don't have rules, especially a tax if we don't have rules, 760 00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:40.559 well let's all get together and go with the herd. 761 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:43.360 Don't be an outlier, right, So if we're wrong on it, 762 00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:46.440 let's all be wrong together. We'll fix it going forward. 763 00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:48.760 So on that note, and I don't know if this 764 00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:52.840 makes sense. Are you is KPMG in any type of 765 00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:57.519 group or consortium with maybe even your competitors or other 766 00:38:57.559 --> 00:38:59.960 industry players to try to figure these things out. 767 00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:03.880 Yeah, So all of the Big four do take part 768 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.000 in industry groups. So we write help them write papers 769 00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:10.320 and put their position papers together so when they go 770 00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.760 down to Congress, you know they can or or it's 771 00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:14.760 in front of a state regulator, whatever the case may be, 772 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:17.639 that they are able to you know, advance their position. 773 00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:19.480 And so we all we all do that. Obviously, we 774 00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:22.480 don't lobby ourselves, we don't do that, but we certainly 775 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:25.079 help them to do it, of course, and we are 776 00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:28.719 routinely asked by you know, like the Senate Finance Committee 777 00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:30.639 and the tax writing committees that you know, come down 778 00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:34.239 and speak to them more educate, educational and by the way, 779 00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:36.480 great great for them that they invite us down to 780 00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:38.639 do that. I mean, they want to learn, they want 781 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:41.920 to know, you know, so they can whatever rules they 782 00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:43.559 do end up writing, they can at least be thoughtful 783 00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:43.920 about it. 784 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:46.480 And Tony, what's on your roadmap for this year as 785 00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:47.719 it relates to digital assets? 786 00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:50.519 So you know, there are still believe it or not, 787 00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:53.079 people say, well, you know the Genius Act that's done 788 00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:57.639 the past, Well it did, but they implementing regulations are 789 00:39:57.639 --> 00:40:00.639 and hear that, and so we're still working through that. 790 00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:04.800 So the implementing regulations have to be out by July 791 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:10.039 eighteenth this year. So obviously you know we're working through 792 00:40:10.039 --> 00:40:13.719 that process. And that's a big deal because you know, yes, 793 00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:17.639 we want stable coins, and we want regulated stable coins 794 00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:19.599 on the one hand. But the other thing that it 795 00:40:19.639 --> 00:40:23.679 does do is once these hopefully it will do when 796 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:26.920 these regulations come out in July, is that it is 797 00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.880 going to treat payment stable coins, which is a defined 798 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:33.840 term on the genius sect. It will treat them as cash. 799 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:35.840 And that does a lot of things for us on 800 00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:38.079 the accounting side, and it does a lot of things 801 00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:42.199 for our regulated banking clients, you know, for on their 802 00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:44.480 balance sheet and on their risk weighted assets, if they 803 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.960 can list that as cash or cash like item, it 804 00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:49.400 does a lot of things for them. And so it 805 00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:53.000 will increase the use of stable coins greatly after that. 806 00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:56.880 So that's certainly one thing that's on the horizon here. 807 00:40:56.960 --> 00:40:59.719 The other thing that we're trying to deal with, and 808 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.159 it's still going, I believe it or not, is the 809 00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:05.000 ten ninety ninety eight reporting in the US. We just 810 00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:07.880 had our first ones. If you didn't get your ten 811 00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:11.480 ninety nine dya, that's because it was a screw up. 812 00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:14.000 If you've got your ten ninety nine DA and it 813 00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:17.199 was wrong, that's a not a mistake, that's a feature. 814 00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:20.960 I mean, it's not working the way it's supposed to 815 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:23.199 work right now, and so we've got a lot of 816 00:41:23.239 --> 00:41:26.079 work this year to do to work on the ten 817 00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:29.920 ninety nine reporting because next year it will have tax 818 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:32.239 bait where it's supposed to have tax basis on it. 819 00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:35.400 This year was just gross pro season. It sounds very simple, 820 00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:37.119 but there's a lot of work behind the scenes to 821 00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:39.920 make that happen correctly. And then of course, the big 822 00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:43.760 big thing that we're also working on is so KARF 823 00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:47.960 is live. KARF is the Crypto assid Reporting Framework in Europe. 824 00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:50.920 It is live in many countries, not in the United 825 00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:53.400 States yet, but the United States will go live with 826 00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:56.000 that in twenty twenty eight and that's a big lift 827 00:41:56.039 --> 00:41:58.960 for us too to get all those regulations and get 828 00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:01.960 the process us in order so people can be able 829 00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:03.760 to report to that. So that's another thing that we're 830 00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:06.800 working on in that space. But yeah, I mean, it's 831 00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.280 a it's a never ending cycle of things here that 832 00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:12.239 we're that we're constantly working on. And then like I said, 833 00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:14.920 new things just keep coming to the market, and uh, 834 00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.440 you know, we have all these digital asset treasury companies 835 00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:20.320 now and they have their own unique issues that we're 836 00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:24.639 trying to deal with. Because they're publicly reporting entities. Uh yeah. 837 00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:27.199 And then uh, you know, inside the asset management space, 838 00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:31.719 good and bad. But I do find you know, what 839 00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:34.440 we have in the United States for asset management, as 840 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:38.840 people are going to access digital assets, we have exchange 841 00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:42.320 traded products ETPs. People call them ETFs, but they're not 842 00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:46.679 really ETFs, right, So we're trying to get that rule 843 00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:49.840 adjusted so that they can be ETFs. It will make 844 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:53.119 life easier for everybody. So that's something that we're working 845 00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:55.800 on now too. And then one of the things they 846 00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:59.960 think within asset management that is fantastic are these, you know, 847 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:03.039 the notion of vaults that people can have, you know, 848 00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:07.400 you know, put put stable coins into vaults that may 849 00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:12.440 be curated, maybe autonomous, and just let them trade. And 850 00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:15.159 you know, but then of course being able to report 851 00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:17.639 on that and get your castes ready from that, it's 852 00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:20.679 like just a new frontier for us, another thing to do. 853 00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:23.119 You got lots on your plate, but it's all great 854 00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:26.599 stuff and all important things for the progression and the 855 00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:28.519 you know, the infrastructure being built. 856 00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:32.639 Out absolutely yeah no, and it's exciting and it keeps 857 00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:34.519 you know, the people that work for us, you know, 858 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:38.039 entertained and allows them to really, you know, express some 859 00:43:38.119 --> 00:43:41.519 creativity in this space. So it's fantastic and hopefully we 860 00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:45.159 are helping the economy move forward and helping you know, productivity, 861 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:47.920 and hopefully we'll get to a place where you know, 862 00:43:48.199 --> 00:43:53.400 more and more people can utilize the financial infrastructure that 863 00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:55.320 we have in the United States. One of the great 864 00:43:55.320 --> 00:44:00.440 things I find about digital assets is the democratization of finance. 865 00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:02.800 You know, there's a lot of people around the world, 866 00:44:03.400 --> 00:44:04.960 you know, you take it for granted that you have 867 00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.000 a bank account, you have a you know, you have 868 00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:09.480 a debit card, you can go do things a lot 869 00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:11.400 of people do not, and so for them to be 870 00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:14.440 able to access that from a mobile phone is just 871 00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:17.000 phenomenal for them. Oh absolutely, all. 872 00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:18.880 Right, Tony, I got some wrap up questions here for you. 873 00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:23.840 The rapid Fire. First favorite food, deld Palm, I'm Italian though, 874 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:27.960 Favorite musician or band, Oh Rolling Stones? 875 00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:32.480 That wants an easy ones? Favorite movie, Oh deez, Iconic? 876 00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:35.000 How about well I show my age but breakfast club? 877 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:40.119 Favorite book? You know, Ever since I went through law school, 878 00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:41.800 I used to read, but ever since I went to 879 00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:43.559 law school, all I do is read for work. So 880 00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:46.360 my favorite book is the tax code. Now, that's what 881 00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:46.840 it is. 882 00:44:48.199 --> 00:44:50.079 When you're not working, what are you doing for fun. 883 00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:52.880 Health and fitness. I am a fitness fanatic, so if 884 00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:54.880 I have free time, that's what I'm doing. 885 00:44:55.159 --> 00:44:58.880 Tony, absolute pleasure. I love what KPMG's doing and certainly 886 00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:03.880 one of the key pillars right in providing the reporting, 887 00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:06.719 the verification and all these things that are important for 888 00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:09.639 this asset class to grow. And I'm looking forward to 889 00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:11.719 the future updates. So thank you so much for joining me. 890 00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:13.519 Thanks for having me, Johnie appreciate it. 891 00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:16.800 Thank you so much for tuning in. Please hit the 892 00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:19.280 like button subscribe if you haven't as yet. If you're 893 00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:22.320 listening on a podcast platform such as Spotify or Apple, 894 00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:25.239 please follow and leave a five star rating. Thank you 895 00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:25.719 so much.