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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them.
Speaker 6: Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 7: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 7: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 7: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 6: Good evening in the state of Wisconsin. After being exonerated
Speaker 6: for a wrongful conviction on September eleventh, two thousand and three,
Speaker 6: Stephen Avery became a very political name in a very
Speaker 6: political time. Two years later, when arrested for the intentional
Speaker 6: homicide of Teresa Halback during a time when he filed
Speaker 6: a thirty six million dollar civil suit, Stephen alleges he
Speaker 6: was ultimately framed by corrupt state officials to thwart off
Speaker 6: his chances of winning the suit. However, the Wisconsin Department
Speaker 6: of Justice argues that it was impossible for any such
Speaker 6: frame job to ever have happened. Though could the framing
Speaker 6: be probable if the mo was political? What did Netflix
Speaker 6: making a murderer miss? The political story behind Stephen avery
Speaker 6: saga has remained untold until now. Possibly the most gripping
Speaker 6: political thriller you'll be reading in twenty seventeen, thirty seven
Speaker 6: years experience on the newsroom floor, and I've never witnessed
Speaker 6: what every journalist should be asking our legislators about the
Speaker 6: possible corruption in our American justice system. Keller's delivery is
Speaker 6: provocative and exposes a much needed change in criminal reform.
Speaker 6: The book that we're featuring this evening is Beyond Avery, Road,
Speaker 6: Beauting and the Beast, with my special guest, Chad Spencer Keller.
Speaker 6: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 6: agreeing to this interview. Chad Spencer Keller. Good evening, Chad,
Speaker 6: Good evening, Chad Spencer Keller.
Speaker 4: How are you doing the night?
Speaker 6: Dan, very good, Thank you, thank you for joining us
Speaker 6: for this very very important book. Let's start with why
Speaker 6: was this story and this case about Stephen Avery important
Speaker 6: to you especially? And tell us the circumstances in which
Speaker 6: you came to be involved in this story.
Speaker 4: Well, I had a wrongful conviction of myself. I spent
Speaker 4: four years in a Georgia state prison, a seven year
Speaker 4: long legal battle with the system, and when I started
Speaker 4: researching more into depth of Stephen Avery's case, I realized
Speaker 4: that it went beyond Manitoac County, that it really got
Speaker 4: into the political aspect, and I just wanted to make
Speaker 4: everybody aware that governmental misconduct is real. It exits coast
Speaker 4: to coast, and there was some very disturbing things I
Speaker 4: found out during this case, so I wanted to write
Speaker 4: a book about it.
Speaker 6: Now, this book has got the title as well, Beyond Avery, World, Butting,
Speaker 6: and the Beast. And you're referring to Jerome Butting part
Speaker 6: of the team of Jerome Butting and Dean Strang. If
Speaker 6: people are aware of they were counseled for Stephen Avery
Speaker 6: in his murder trial of Teresa Halback. And also so
Speaker 6: now if people are aware and they are aware of
Speaker 6: making a murder, these are the as you call them,
Speaker 6: superstar lawyers, heart throbs. Jerome Butting especially is in your crosshairs.
Speaker 6: In this you say that Stephen Avery didn't choose Jerome Butting,
Speaker 6: but rather the other way around. So let's begin where
Speaker 6: you look at this story and what you purport in
Speaker 6: this book is to look and ask some questions of
Speaker 6: Jerome Butting. So let's for our audience ask those questions
Speaker 6: about Jerome Butting that you do in this book.
Speaker 4: Jerome Butting was very highly active on the political scene
Speaker 4: when Steven Avery was exonerated in two thousand and three
Speaker 4: for a nineteen eighty five sexual assault an attempt to
Speaker 4: murder charge that DNA freed him from. And the thing
Speaker 4: is he was very politically attached to the Attorney General
Speaker 4: at the time, who was peg Lautenschlagger, who wrote a
Speaker 4: December seventeenth, two thousand and three report protecting Mantewac County
Speaker 4: of that wrongful conviction of Stephen Avery. And for Jerome
Speaker 4: Bewden to have been working this exoneration and then become
Speaker 4: involved in Stephen Avery's murder trial two years two and
Speaker 4: three years later, he shouldn't have been there. It's a
Speaker 4: complete conflict of interest. They have made an Avery task
Speaker 4: Force on Steven's name in his behalf to attack these
Speaker 4: political issues. Well, that task force got renamed to the
Speaker 4: Criminal Justice Study Commission only two months before Teresa Hallback
Speaker 4: was allegedly murdered. And Jerome Beuten is sitting on this
Speaker 4: and created it with the Attorney General who's protected minute
Speaker 4: wea so for him to be defending Stephen Avery and
Speaker 4: doing her political agenda it's it's complete collusion for the system.
Speaker 4: It's a conflict of interest in the fullest he should
Speaker 4: have never been there.
Speaker 6: Let's go back, because I know this people are confused
Speaker 6: already because we've just opened up too much at one time.
Speaker 6: So let's go back to a little bit, like you say,
Speaker 6: the Making a Murderer. If people came to this story
Speaker 6: at that point, and a lot of millions of people
Speaker 6: came to this story there. I've interviewed Michael Grees back
Speaker 6: when his book before the title changed the Innocent Killer,
Speaker 6: and so I have his version of things since making
Speaker 6: of Making a Murderer and before, and so I became
Speaker 6: aware of this story a few years ago. So now,
Speaker 6: like everyone else, I was affected by Making a Murderer,
Speaker 6: and I think conclusions are drawn from that. And you say, listen,
Speaker 6: we got to take a look at that making of
Speaker 6: a murderer, making a murderer, but also the two years
Speaker 6: in between Avery's exoneration. So please go back and explain
Speaker 6: in more detail exactly who Jerome Beauting was. And we
Speaker 6: talk about this task force. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: more about the formation of the task force. But what
Speaker 6: happens involving Michael Greesback, so that we can talk about
Speaker 6: Michael Greesback and his connection to his own brother, as
Speaker 6: you do later in the book. Let's talk about how
Speaker 6: he was released and under what conditions, and as you
Speaker 6: explain the paltry sum that was initially I guess they
Speaker 6: were trying to give to him for the eighteen years
Speaker 6: in prison, and tell us how they got as you do,
Speaker 6: how they get to the thirty six million, and how
Speaker 6: did Manitouwac County and pay Schlager and other people react, right,
Speaker 6: and that that.
Speaker 4: Takes a book to do about all of that. But yeah,
Speaker 4: we'll start with when Stephen Avery was in prison. He
Speaker 4: was he he got exonerated at a at eighteen years
Speaker 4: of a thirty six year sentence. DNA cleared him when
Speaker 4: when new new scientific technology for DNA was available, it
Speaker 4: cleared him of this rape charge and attempted murder charge
Speaker 4: at Penny Binston and Michael gris Back he was actually
Speaker 4: one of the people that was helping the winsconsin Innocent
Speaker 4: project to free Stephen Avery. So when the DNA releases
Speaker 4: him and he's a gonerated, Michael Grisback was concerned about
Speaker 4: it because it was in his own words, governmental misconduct
Speaker 4: to the fullest, and he approached peg Lattenschlagger one hundred
Speaker 4: and forty eight miles away in Madison, Wisconsin, to have
Speaker 4: an investigation done on why Stephen Avery went to prison.
Speaker 4: So then a bunch of politicians and senators got together
Speaker 4: and they created the Avery Task Force. Now Jerome Bewden
Speaker 4: at this time he sat on the Criminal Law Section.
Speaker 4: He was the Board of Directors for the Criminal Law
Speaker 4: Section of the Wisconsin State Bar. So a guy named
Speaker 4: Mark Gundrum appointed him as part of this task force
Speaker 4: to work behind the scenes politically. And Lautenschlagger at the time,
Speaker 4: she was being dean very unethical, she had a dui
Speaker 4: or wrong, she was using state vehicles improperly, and she
Speaker 4: was just getting a bad rep. So she didn't want
Speaker 4: nothing to do with this Avery Task Force to begin with,
Speaker 4: because of she was the person who controlled the budget
Speaker 4: for a DOJ and she was protected Manetwa County for
Speaker 4: Sennant Stephen Avery to prison in nineteen eighty five. Well,
Speaker 4: the way that Lattenschlagger and Jerome Beden became friends is
Speaker 4: that it comes through Janet Reno, the US Attorney General
Speaker 4: who is Lattenschlagger's heroin and idol, and Butten actually helped
Speaker 4: funded an appearance by her to the Avery Task Force
Speaker 4: to speak on tunnel vision. And this is where Beating
Speaker 4: and Lautenschlagger's political connections really starts peaking. This is in
Speaker 4: two thousand and four. This is about a month and
Speaker 4: a year and three months before Teresa even disappears. So
Speaker 4: he was ceded to benefit the state and they eventually
Speaker 4: took over d Avery Task Force. What Davery Task Force
Speaker 4: was designed to do was to implement new political structured
Speaker 4: guidelines to keep people from going to prison. Now what
Speaker 4: it should have been doing, It should have been getting
Speaker 4: people out of prison. When Stephen Avery was exonerated, nine
Speaker 4: hundred people wrote into the WinCE Kinnic Constant Innocent Project
Speaker 4: to have their cases reviewed, but they were told that
Speaker 4: they would never go free because the State Crime Lab
Speaker 4: didn't have the manpower to freedom. So instead of getting
Speaker 4: the people out of prison, which would have resulted in
Speaker 4: nearly a billion dollars in losses for the DOJ, they
Speaker 4: focused on saving the state money and putting guidelines into
Speaker 4: effect to keep other people like Stephen from going They
Speaker 4: just said that, hell with everybody that was in there already.
Speaker 4: So when Duden, when he actually becomes a part of
Speaker 4: Stephen Avery's defense council, he is still attached to the
Speaker 4: Attorney General, who still has a personal agenda at this
Speaker 4: point of protecting Manitouk County from Stephen Avery. So this
Speaker 4: is where the collusion and conflict kind of ties in,
Speaker 4: is that he's sitting on a task force that they
Speaker 4: renamed and created and it's supposed to be benefiting Steven Avery,
Speaker 4: but it's really benefit in the state of Wisconsin.
Speaker 6: You talk about the task force itself that was put
Speaker 6: together and you say that as you as you just
Speaker 6: mentioned that its real purpose was to prevent anything like
Speaker 6: this happening again, and you provide the documentation for that.
Speaker 6: This I found incredible. You provide the actual actual document
Speaker 6: so it's not just your opinion based on this information
Speaker 6: and what she has actually said at these meetings. Now
Speaker 6: you talk about the Stephen Avery suing his or trying
Speaker 6: to petition the courts that he had ineffective counsel, and
Speaker 6: then this making a murderer you talk about, and I
Speaker 6: don't know if everyone knows it took ten years to
Speaker 6: release this to make this and to release this. Now
Speaker 6: you talk about this ineffective council and at the time
Speaker 6: people didn't take Avery too seriously. Is that what people
Speaker 6: miss in Making a Murderer is that these beauting and
Speaker 6: strang just came to the spotlight, not out of their
Speaker 6: own accord that and you talk about how they're just
Speaker 6: playing when they go on this criminal reform tours. So
Speaker 6: tell us what you say in the book about the
Speaker 6: difference between what he is presenting and what really went on.
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, first of all, everybody needs to realize that
Speaker 4: Stephen Avery, if you're an Avery supporter, and there's millions
Speaker 4: of them out there and they hate the prosecutor Ken Krats,
Speaker 4: and first I just want to say if you're if
Speaker 4: you're an Avery supporter, Stephen Avery has about as much
Speaker 4: respect for Dean String and Jerome Butting as these people
Speaker 4: do for Ken Krats. And it's funny because Making a Murderer,
Speaker 4: the very first time anybody ever ever heard of String
Speaker 4: and Butting was was during the documentary and it made
Speaker 4: them look as if they were these superhero heartthrob attorneys.
Speaker 4: But they're missing the concept of how they got there.
Speaker 4: And Steven Avery never went through the yellow pages and
Speaker 4: picked these these attorneys out. These attorneys were appointed by
Speaker 4: people that were sitting on Lattenschlagger's commission with Jerome Butting.
Speaker 4: It's like his civil suit attorney, Stephen Glenn, who was
Speaker 4: handling thirty six million dollars civil suit. He comes to
Speaker 4: Stephen and he's like, hey, I got these two people
Speaker 4: that would be great in handling this case for you,
Speaker 4: and if you want to agree to settle out, you
Speaker 4: can spend the settlement money to get these lawyers to
Speaker 4: get you off of this murder charge. So so guess
Speaker 4: who gets the money of that. Stephen Glenn, Jerome Bewden,
Speaker 4: Dean Strain, and another civil attorney which was Walt Kelly.
Speaker 4: But what was it involved in it? As much as
Speaker 4: Steven M. Glenn was, he turned his head and my
Speaker 4: research and he should have blown a whistle on what
Speaker 4: was going on, but they didn't. But all four of
Speaker 4: them split the money of Stephen's settlement and they were
Speaker 4: appointed by the state to go in there. Steven didn't
Speaker 4: pick these attorneys out, and and it's just blows my
Speaker 4: mind that these people can sit here and and they
Speaker 4: don't understand the way that the system works and that
Speaker 4: this is a conflict.
Speaker 6: Can you explain for us about the forty nine thousand
Speaker 6: dollars was initially offered, which was twenty four thousand dollars
Speaker 6: which was for attorney fees at Avery had spent on
Speaker 6: and tell us what the progression of the offer was
Speaker 6: with a million dollars in their counteroffer and how it
Speaker 6: got up to thirty six million dollars. Like I say,
Speaker 6: you talk about how important it was to Lattenschlager this
Speaker 6: thirty six million dollars. What did this thirty six million
Speaker 6: dollars represent to Manitua County and to the Attorney General Lattenschlager.
Speaker 4: Well, Lautenschlager, she was the Attorney General, so she was
Speaker 4: in charge of the Department of Justice budget. And when
Speaker 4: these people start getting sued is coming from there. But
Speaker 4: Stephen Avery, A lot of people are under the misconception
Speaker 4: that he just hops out of prison and sued for
Speaker 4: thirty six million dollars. But that's not how it went down.
Speaker 4: When Stephen gets out, Stephen he petitioned the Wins Consin
Speaker 4: Claims Board for one point one million dollars, which was
Speaker 4: a fair affair. Shake at things after losing your family,
Speaker 4: being locked up for eighteen years. He was going to
Speaker 4: use the money to start his life over about half
Speaker 4: of that, and he's going to donate half of it
Speaker 4: to the Wisconsin Innocent Project to help free other people.
Speaker 4: But the Wisconsin Claims Board under a Wisconsin state law
Speaker 4: I haven't listed in my book, it goes back one
Speaker 4: hundred years where it only gives you five thousand dollars
Speaker 4: a year for the time that you serve, but it
Speaker 4: caps off in two thousand and three, at the time
Speaker 4: of Avery's at generation, it caps off at twenty five
Speaker 4: thousand dollars. So the Wisconsin Board could only give st
Speaker 4: even Avery twenty five thousand dollars. And he was told
Speaker 4: by the chairman to go petition the legislation. So this
Speaker 4: is where he does a second petition, and he petitions
Speaker 4: the legislation and Mark Gundrum, who created the Avery Task Force,
Speaker 4: he comes up with the idea to give Steven Avery
Speaker 4: four hundred and sixty thousand dollars and that's even that's
Speaker 4: still less than half of what he's asking for. And
Speaker 4: the funny thing is is that Jerome Beden was one
Speaker 4: of the lead authors on this bill, that wanted to
Speaker 4: give Steven Avery less than half the money, you know,
Speaker 4: because he's he's seeded to benefit the state and saving
Speaker 4: money and and so so Steven has said, well you
Speaker 4: wanna you want to go at me again and and
Speaker 4: deny me twice at his one point one million dollars.
Speaker 4: He's doing everything he can to do a fair state.
Speaker 4: So he decides to sue him for thirty six million.
Speaker 4: And I mean, they kept turning them down. So then
Speaker 4: when he gets sued, this is when Lottenschlager comes in
Speaker 4: and takes over the Avery Task Force. Because as long
Speaker 4: as Steven's name is attached to that Avery Task Force,
Speaker 4: then he has a shot at getting every bit of
Speaker 4: that money. Because the governor was having to play on
Speaker 4: Stephen's side, and you know that he was he was
Speaker 4: the poster child for wrongful convictions. But you had a purse,
Speaker 4: put a force, a push and pull in the system
Speaker 4: where Governor Doyle at the time and Lottenschlagger, where we're
Speaker 4: bumping heads, they were in they were in disputes over
Speaker 4: this thing. So lotten Schlagger changed the Avery name, gets
Speaker 4: it out of there, get gets it out of the
Speaker 4: task force, and renames it, and then her and Butden
Speaker 4: literally created it and took over it. And when Butden
Speaker 4: comes in to defend Stephen Avery, this murder charge of
Speaker 4: Teresa Hallback, he's sot on this commission with the Attorney
Speaker 4: General and he still attached to the state. It's like, Hey,
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna come over here and pretend like I'm
Speaker 4: helping you. But really, if you do the research and
Speaker 4: there's solid, solid evidence on it, he was there to
Speaker 4: complement the state and not Stephen Avery. During that defense trial.
Speaker 6: You again, this documentation that you provide to back up
Speaker 6: your again provocative in your claims, you say. On December seventeenth,
Speaker 6: the Luttenslagger releases a report and she says, after this again,
Speaker 6: this wrongful conviction, no basis to lay criminal charges or
Speaker 6: assert ethics violations against anyone in the investigation or prosecution
Speaker 6: of this case. At worst, the Sheriff's department failed to
Speaker 6: investigate a viable suspect, Gregory Allen, because they tried to
Speaker 6: capture too quickly. And you say, critics called this report
Speaker 6: a whitewash, including gris Back.
Speaker 4: That's that's correct. Whenever he was exonerated from his original charge,
Speaker 4: they had information back in nineteen eighty five, really that
Speaker 4: Gregory Allen was more of a suspect than than Steven Avery.
Speaker 4: And then in two thousand and in nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 4: I want to believe it was there was a investigator
Speaker 4: at the time, Colburn, he was. He was a detective
Speaker 4: working there, just just getting phone calls, and someone called
Speaker 4: in and told him that Gregory Allen had admitted to
Speaker 4: this crime. And this is that even after he spent
Speaker 4: already eight years in prison, and it still took another
Speaker 4: ten before he even got out of prison, even when
Speaker 4: they knew that Gregory Allen was the suspect.
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Speaker 6: No, we're not necessary, dad, where every by lost in
Speaker 6: terms conditions is eighteen plus. Now you're talking about you La,
Speaker 6: go ahead, you lay this, You lay this all out
Speaker 6: in terms of and you talk about the Wisconsin's new
Speaker 6: governance experiment in two thousand and five and what this
Speaker 6: actually gave Lattenschlager the ability to do. And it's incredible
Speaker 6: that you talk about the task Force and then it's
Speaker 6: changing its name, it's changing its directions, changing its focus,
Speaker 6: and you talk about the personal feud as you mentioned
Speaker 6: with Governor Jim Doyle, and but you also talk about
Speaker 6: this breast cancer you talk about a lot of contributing
Speaker 6: factors that may or may not be contributing factors, but
Speaker 6: at least you put them into your argument and it
Speaker 6: seems viable. So tell us a little bit about what
Speaker 6: was going on in our personal life that may have
Speaker 6: contributed to Again, we're not there yet, but we're going
Speaker 6: to talk about this conspiracy that you're laying out, this
Speaker 6: this conspiracy to let's again, let's let's go to this
Speaker 6: new governance experiment and this feud and what was happening
Speaker 6: in her personal life.
Speaker 4: All right, Yeah, Lautenschlagger. You know, she she got a
Speaker 4: d u Y and she had been cited by the
Speaker 4: Ethics Board for improper use of her state vehicle. She
Speaker 4: was she had been deemed very very unethical at this
Speaker 4: point in time. Really about one of the only reasons
Speaker 4: she did jump onto the every Task Force was to
Speaker 4: kind of save face with her reputation because it was
Speaker 4: a big political thing and she she really had no
Speaker 4: choice but to kind of saved face from the d
Speaker 4: UI because she got her DUI in two thousand in
Speaker 4: February two thousand and four, and then she comes onto
Speaker 4: the task force in March a month later, now at
Speaker 4: the time that October rose around two thousand and four,
Speaker 4: this is when Stephen Avers starts his civil suit, is
Speaker 4: in October two thousand and four. And there was a guy,
Speaker 4: he was a district attorney at the time of Dane
Speaker 4: County and his name was Joe Pallis. I really don't
Speaker 4: want to get in into a lot of what was
Speaker 4: going on with Joe Pollis's case. He ended up doing
Speaker 4: a couple of times in federal prison, but he rolled
Speaker 4: over some information on Lawton Schlagger and the governor kind
Speaker 4: of helped stay his sentence a little bit. But this
Speaker 4: is what started really the feud between Lawton Schlagger and
Speaker 4: Doyle was this guy by the name of Polis. And
Speaker 4: now the way Governor Doyle had taking policy's side over
Speaker 4: Lottenschlaggers and then you have this whole mess with the
Speaker 4: Avery Task Force when Lattenslagger's saying, hey, don't don't be
Speaker 4: saying that manutoac was it was was proven a governmental
Speaker 4: misconduct in this case because I'm trying to protect them,
Speaker 4: and and it's just her her whole demeanor at this time,
Speaker 4: she had she was battling breast cancer, she was drinking
Speaker 4: a lot. She was drinking on a job she was.
Speaker 4: I mean, this is this is proven fact. I mean
Speaker 4: she wrecked her she she wrecked her state vehicle and
Speaker 4: got a d U. I But her daughter said in
Speaker 4: a in a magazine article just four days before Teresa disappears,
Speaker 4: Lottenslagger had become clear of her cancer, but her daughter
Speaker 4: was talking about all the rage and violence that she
Speaker 4: witness of her own mother, you know, personally attacking people
Speaker 4: and a whole bunch of stuff. And I guess it
Speaker 4: came with the territory of the cancer, with whatever she
Speaker 4: was dealing with personally or personal demons. But go back
Speaker 4: to Joe Paulus. She says in a video that she
Speaker 4: wanted to get Joe Paulis and she had to recuse
Speaker 4: herself from that case from having anything to do with
Speaker 4: his case because she was going to go after him hardcore.
Speaker 4: And if you just think this is the same time period,
Speaker 4: Stephen Avery is bringing up thirty six million problems and
Speaker 4: she's in control of this budget. She's also at the
Speaker 4: time she took on a murder case, the Chai Vane
Speaker 4: murder case, which is the first time Attorney General had
Speaker 4: acted as a prosecutor in forty years, and this trial
Speaker 4: was one month before Steven Avery was accused of killing
Speaker 4: Teresa Halback. So it is abnormal for a prosecutor or
Speaker 4: attorney general to be playing prosecutor while she's acting as
Speaker 4: an attorney general. It's just something that's not done. But
Speaker 4: she was also suing Cranberry dairy farm owners and everything
Speaker 4: in Wisconsin and all across the United States, so she
Speaker 4: had experience and not only prosecution, but she had experience
Speaker 4: in civil lawsuits. And when you got a thirty six
Speaker 4: million dollars civil suit like Steven Avery, and she's a
Speaker 4: acting attorney general with all this unethical act, she fits
Speaker 4: the bill to set this up in advance to frame them.
Speaker 4: And doing my research, I mean, I bring up some
Speaker 4: very great arguments of how Steven Avery's conviction of goes
Speaker 4: straight back into the new government's experiment that she had
Speaker 4: complete control of, and the political agend that she had
Speaker 4: reflects down to a t his entire conviction.
Speaker 6: Use example to explain and what you mentioned Chai Sonovang,
Speaker 6: the murderer of these six deer hunters. Tell us as
Speaker 6: you or demonstrate or illustrate how she did this pre trial,
Speaker 6: or at least pre trial publicity in sort of framing
Speaker 6: how people would look at this person that killed these
Speaker 6: deer hunters, and how you say that this was a
Speaker 6: tryout of sorts for again an unusual prosecution. Completely, what
Speaker 6: was the purpose and what did she learn from that
Speaker 6: and what did she try out? In terms of framing
Speaker 6: the situation, I would say in certain terms.
Speaker 4: Well, you got to look at the the Chai Vain case.
Speaker 4: That was six six people had gotten murdered. They were
Speaker 4: deer hunters. Chai Vain was a Hormong native and he
Speaker 4: illegally had trespassed on to their property and when he
Speaker 4: was told to get off, an altercation ensued, which Vain
Speaker 4: claims racist remarks were shown in his advance and he
Speaker 4: acted out of self defense when one raised a gun
Speaker 4: and shot at him, and he killed. He killed a
Speaker 4: couple of the people on the property. And now the
Speaker 4: thing is with Lattenschlagger prosecuting this case, a lot of
Speaker 4: the oral argument that she uses in Stephen Avery's case,
Speaker 4: which you got you got to remember she tried this
Speaker 4: case just one month before Teresa Halback disappears, so that
Speaker 4: it's almost a complete reflection of this guy vain. She
Speaker 4: said that he would run people off the road and
Speaker 4: he held a gun to his wife's head. Now, now
Speaker 4: this story will emerge in Steven Avery's case. You know,
Speaker 4: only a couple of months, not a month, a month
Speaker 4: and a couple of days later about how he ran
Speaker 4: his cousin off the road, Sandra Morris back in nineteen
Speaker 4: eighty five before he went to prison for Penny Bernstein incident,
Speaker 4: and how he pointed a unloaded shotgun at her. And
Speaker 4: it's like, it's like the same oral argument she uses
Speaker 4: in that case is brought directly over into Steven Avery's case.
Speaker 4: But the thing is, when Steven Avery gets exonerating, he
Speaker 4: wasn't put back in the system as a felon. From
Speaker 4: nineteen eighties until two thousand and three, you had the
Speaker 4: entire computer system change, and Steven Avery's past records are
Speaker 4: sitting in this box in Manuchwac County. They're nowher's in
Speaker 4: the computer system. When he got exonerated, he was hanging
Speaker 4: out with Governor Doyle at the state Capitol and they
Speaker 4: ran back check background checks on a Mark Dundrum even
Speaker 4: says live on video that he didn't even know Steven
Speaker 4: Avery had any of these such charges. They all sit
Speaker 4: in a box in manuichuauc County. And the way that
Speaker 4: Lautenschlager had got access to these things if she did
Speaker 4: use this against against Stephen, which my research shows that
Speaker 4: is that this is completely what had had to happen
Speaker 4: because she had access to it. When he's getting all
Speaker 4: these depositions from from his civil suit, they're going into
Speaker 4: the court. When Stephen Avery was arrested, he wasn't even
Speaker 4: arrested for the murder of Trasea Hallback. He was arrested
Speaker 4: for possession of a firearm being a felon. But the
Speaker 4: thing with that is Stephen had a couple of incidents
Speaker 4: involving his fiance where they come out to his house
Speaker 4: and knew he had firearms in it, but he wasn't
Speaker 4: ever in the system and upon his release, so they
Speaker 4: never took him in for the felon. Ken Kratz drew
Speaker 4: up the warrant on November ninth and they went arrested
Speaker 4: him on November ninth, at two thousand and five for
Speaker 4: felling in possession of a gun when he was never
Speaker 4: even in the system as a felon. Wow, right, so
Speaker 4: have Joe ahead.
Speaker 6: And you also talk about too that there's also the
Speaker 6: vial of Avery's blood along with that box in the
Speaker 6: Manitowa County Courthouse, correct, right.
Speaker 4: And that blood. I mean, if you follow the social
Speaker 4: media scene is probably the discussion of the blood is
Speaker 4: probably more tainted than the blood itself. But the thing
Speaker 4: is is that they had access to it. And even
Speaker 4: like a lot of people are familiar with the sweat
Speaker 4: DNA that was on the hood latch, well, they're like, well,
Speaker 4: how do you get Steven Avery's sweat and transfer it
Speaker 4: to the hood latch. Well, when Steven Avery was arrested,
Speaker 4: they had a nurse come in and swab him, and
Speaker 4: when he was when he was first arrested, and they
Speaker 4: did a swab of the genital area. But then all
Speaker 4: of a sudden, the investigators say, oh wait, we don't
Speaker 4: need a swab for that. The warrant does it call
Speaker 4: for it. So the nurse tosses the swaves in the
Speaker 4: trash can. And I mean, if you got crooked officers
Speaker 4: hanging around, all they gotta do is pick those swabs
Speaker 4: up to have his sweat from his genital areas and
Speaker 4: go and transfer where they want to. They had access.
Speaker 4: A lot of people say, oh, you can't just make
Speaker 4: Steven Avery's sweat appear out of thin air and transfer. No,
Speaker 4: they had legit cotton ball swabs of his genital region
Speaker 4: and access to it. And the thing is is when
Speaker 4: these nurses do these warrants and execute swabs and everything
Speaker 4: they have to do everything to a tea so to
Speaker 4: tell them to go ahead and tell her to swab
Speaker 4: his genital areas to begin with, and then turn around
Speaker 4: and say, oh, wait, we don't need it. I mean
Speaker 4: that should be ringing a couple of bells.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. You also talk about the the DCI special Agent.
Speaker 6: Maybe you can tell us what DCI stands for as well.
Speaker 6: Tom Sturtivant and Mike Halback's brother in law, mister Jost
Speaker 6: found Teresa's bones in a pit less than twenty yards
Speaker 6: from Avery's trailer, and you talk up up with the
Speaker 6: criminal past. That tell us a little bit about what
Speaker 6: she talks about the cat burning and that story lining
Speaker 6: up with the burning of Hullback's bones in this pit,
Speaker 6: and tell us just some again. You talk about the
Speaker 6: amount of officers that were in that salvage yard in
Speaker 6: the beginning, and tell us what you write in the
Speaker 6: book about the series of events where evidence is found
Speaker 6: but not in the beginning, and the amount of officers
Speaker 6: that were there, and tell us of the officers and
Speaker 6: special agents and people you think that could have been
Speaker 6: part of this because they did have access, tell us
Speaker 6: explain as you do in the book.
Speaker 4: Okay, now we'll start with the cat burning incident. They
Speaker 4: found Teresa's cremaines twenty yards away from Stephen Avery's bedroom
Speaker 4: in a burn pit. Now d CI is the Division
Speaker 4: of Criminal Investigations, which is a Wisconsin It's pretty much
Speaker 4: state capitol brass there above all the Sheriff's office that
Speaker 4: kind of work for the state capitol. So lo and behold.
Speaker 4: The people in charge overall of the DCI is Miss Lawtonslagger. Now,
Speaker 4: if you back up to nineteen eighty two, Stephen Avery
Speaker 4: had a incident where he was eighteen young. I don't
Speaker 4: condone this by any any means whatsoever. You know, the
Speaker 4: dows the he dows the cat and threw it in
Speaker 4: the fire, lit up and he killed the cat. He
Speaker 4: ended up doing time for it. He committed to it
Speaker 4: and served his time. Stupid thing to do. But this report,
Speaker 4: I'm cruelty was in that Manuchuac County box of evidence
Speaker 4: where it only existed. It was wasn't in a computer.
Speaker 4: And again when you're going to through your civil your
Speaker 4: civil suit and you have access to all these reports,
Speaker 4: they're literally in my research. They built this crime scene
Speaker 4: around his past. You have you have Teresa being burned
Speaker 4: in the burn pitt and all of a sudden that
Speaker 4: the cat story emerges only whenever Steven is arrested on
Speaker 4: the fire on charges. So whoever fed the media at
Speaker 4: this time of the cat burning everything, they got that
Speaker 4: information from that box in Manuchoauc County that had his
Speaker 4: records in it. Now, Mike Callback is Teresa Halback's brother,
Speaker 4: and his brother in law Jost and d CI agent
Speaker 4: Tom Sturdevant were the one who discovered these cremains. And
Speaker 4: it's just always funny how a family member or relative
Speaker 4: of the Hallbacks are always around when the big important
Speaker 4: pieces of this case are being solved. You have Pam Stern,
Speaker 4: who was Teresa's second cousin, who found her rav four
Speaker 4: and now you have a brother in law of the
Speaker 4: Hallbacks family with a d CI agent finding these cremains.
Speaker 4: And what's funny about the cremains. You had hundreds of
Speaker 4: officers on this crime scene looking for for all all
Speaker 4: this stuff. And if you this is November fifth when
Speaker 4: they discovered the rab for it was it till November
Speaker 4: eighth until they found the cremains. But on November three,
Speaker 4: investigator Remiker of Manitoa County had called the DCI agency
Speaker 4: up And it's like, why do you call the DCEI
Speaker 4: up for a missing report? Teresa just got reported missing
Speaker 4: on the third and unless you find a body or something,
Speaker 4: you're not gonna call the DCI to have anything to
Speaker 4: do with it. But it's funny because of the people
Speaker 4: he called wash DCI agent Deb Strass and DCI agent
Speaker 4: Tom's sturd Event that night, and Teresa hadn't even been
Speaker 4: found yet. But then when they find their cremains on
Speaker 4: the eighth, five days later, out of all these officers,
Speaker 4: Tom's third Event is the one standing there to find her.
Speaker 4: It's like, hey, you were notified five days ago before
Speaker 4: Teresa's wrapped four was going to discover how what are
Speaker 4: the odds of it being Tom sturd Evan from the
Speaker 4: DCI to find the cremains standing right there to that
Speaker 4: fire pit. When you have hundreds of agencies on there.
Speaker 4: It's like it was all premeditated. I mean to me,
Speaker 4: in my research, it was premeditated and fabricated to the
Speaker 4: past that they had access to in a boxingman into
Speaker 4: a county and they framed him Accordingly, from the prosecution
Speaker 4: to the conviction to the framing, every bit of it
Speaker 4: directly ties back to the political agenda of peg Lautenschlader.
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Speaker 6: dot com slash murder. Now, I think we set up
Speaker 6: for the audience, Chad, basically some of the main characters
Speaker 6: in this conspiracy to prevent Steven Avery from collecting this
Speaker 6: thirty six million dollars. You set out the argument very plausible.
Speaker 6: Talk about Michael Gresback. This is the guy that you know.
Speaker 6: It seems unusual for a district attorney to be helping
Speaker 6: the you know, the Department of Justice get somebody out
Speaker 6: of jail and all this ensuing embarrassment and humiliation and
Speaker 6: corruption that was dug up. What happens with this new
Speaker 6: charge and tell us a little bit about his connections
Speaker 6: politically and personally.
Speaker 4: Okay, Michael Back. At the time of Stevens exoneration, I
Speaker 4: believe Michael Grisback had the very best of intentions on
Speaker 4: exposing what was going on in his own county. The
Speaker 4: district attorney that preceded him and and was in office
Speaker 4: and is in his county. So I mean in the
Speaker 4: beginning he wanted to help out because he's like, well,
Speaker 4: I'm I'm an assistant district attorney here now, and I
Speaker 4: see something major wrong with our department if Stephen Avery
Speaker 4: just served eighteen years whenever we had this knowledge as
Speaker 4: Gregory Allen committing the offense, you know, way before he
Speaker 4: ever gets exonerated. Now, now here's here's where Michael gris
Speaker 4: Back to me, I lost all respect for him, and
Speaker 4: I think that he turned his own eyes towards integrity.
Speaker 4: A lot of people don't know this, but Michael Grisback
Speaker 4: has a federal a brother who is a judge, is
Speaker 4: a federal judge, and that judge was actually handling Stephen
Speaker 4: avery civil suit. He was the judge in charge of,
Speaker 4: you know, dispensing that thirty six million dollars listening in
Speaker 4: that case that Steven was suing on now Lautenschlagger, And
Speaker 4: this was a very political event at this time. A
Speaker 4: lot of people just don't realize how political this is.
Speaker 4: You had senators involved, you had the governor involved, you
Speaker 4: had the top tier brackets in the Wisconsin DOJ on
Speaker 4: law enforcement and the top tier political aspect as how
Speaker 4: as you could go that we're all focused on this
Speaker 4: exoneration of Stephen Avery. And when you had the Avery
Speaker 4: Task Force running, it was comprised of judges and sheriffs
Speaker 4: and prosecutors, DCI agents, some victim advocates, all sorts of things.
Speaker 4: So when Judge Grisback is taking this case, he's in
Speaker 4: the loop politically what's going on because they're all meeting
Speaker 4: every month to discuss the new policies on how to
Speaker 4: stop wrongful convictions. And Stephen Avery's name, I mean, he's
Speaker 4: He's at the tip of the tongue of every politician.
Speaker 4: So there's an event that Lautenschlagger holds in September two
Speaker 4: thousand and five, and it was having everything to do
Speaker 4: with how to prevent wrongful convictions. And it's just funny
Speaker 4: because when she held this event, she hanted out these
Speaker 4: pamphlets that talked how not to wrongfully convict everybody. It
Speaker 4: had jail house snitches, tunnel visions, recording of a monitor,
Speaker 4: of a minor electronic monitor, or juveniles, contamina, a DNA everything,
Speaker 4: so and Jerome but didn't helped draft these things. It's
Speaker 4: the funny thing. Jerome Muting put these drafts into this
Speaker 4: pamphlet and and Lattenschlagger distributed him through all the sheriff's offices,
Speaker 4: all the new training academies for the Wisconsin Department of Justice.
Speaker 4: And and this event took place only three days before
Speaker 4: before Michael Grisback's brother resigns from Stephen from Steven Avery's
Speaker 4: civil suit. And and the reason that he gives his
Speaker 4: resignation is he's recusing himself. He's he's getting off of
Speaker 4: the case because Michael Grisback was deposed in the civil
Speaker 4: suit of Stephen Avery. And and that's the reason. But
Speaker 4: he he really should have never took that case to
Speaker 4: begin with, because Michael gris Back was the reason that
Speaker 4: that they ever investigated Manae What County to begin with.
Speaker 4: Back was the one who went to Madison and said, hey,
Speaker 4: y'all need to come check on this, and said the
Speaker 4: brother gries Back to judge he should have never been
Speaker 4: involved with the first place. But he's wanting to resign
Speaker 4: a year later. But if you really get down to it,
Speaker 4: he's resigning because of the political faction involved. He doesn't
Speaker 4: want anything to do with it because of all the
Speaker 4: mess it's making the political realm. So you have Judge
Speaker 4: grives Back recused himself, and then gris Back himself, Michael
Speaker 4: gris Back, whenever they come in. He's recused also from
Speaker 4: handling the case because he was involved in his honeration
Speaker 4: and getting everything started. So it's almost says if the
Speaker 4: brother told the brother, hey, something's about to happen, do
Speaker 4: not volunteer for it, stay out of it, and that's
Speaker 4: exactly what gris Back did. Gris Back stayed out of
Speaker 4: it from the beginning after that, and I lost all
Speaker 4: respect for him because because of the officers who's finding
Speaker 4: all this stuff, gris Back is allowing them to continue
Speaker 4: to stay on the avery property of this crime scene.
Speaker 4: When these officers themselves were being deposed in the civil suit,
Speaker 4: they should not have been on that property. And gris
Speaker 4: Back should be like, hey, well I was deposed and
Speaker 4: I'm not involved in it, soe y'all shouldn't be involved
Speaker 4: in it. But Grisback never blew the whistle on anybody.
Speaker 4: And it's like the brother, his brother, who was a
Speaker 4: federal judge, who had all the main knowledge of what
Speaker 4: was going on politically had told him to stay away
Speaker 4: from him. That's what happened. He stayed away from him,
Speaker 4: and I've lost all respect for Griesback because of that.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about Jerome Beting, and like I say,
Speaker 6: he's been in the crosshairs in this book, and you
Speaker 6: talk about how he was claim he was a pawn
Speaker 6: for the state, and you use the example of Brendan
Speaker 6: Dacy's confession and you say it very well was crafted
Speaker 6: by by Beauty to be used against Avery. Tell us,
Speaker 6: as you do provide, give us some information how you
Speaker 6: back up that claim.
Speaker 4: Okay, Brendan Dacy, he was Stephen Avery's He's Steven Avery's nephew.
Speaker 4: And at the time, he's a sixteen year old kid.
Speaker 4: He's got five brothers. He's kind of a little slower
Speaker 4: than the rest of his brothers. He's in special classes
Speaker 4: at this time, he's sixteen year old kid. And when
Speaker 4: he the thing is, he ends up being involved in
Speaker 4: it because they pretty much coersed him. I mean, several
Speaker 4: federal judges have proved in federal courts that he has
Speaker 4: been coerthed. And now the backup to to why he
Speaker 4: was needed in this case when Steven Avery was arrested.
Speaker 4: They took everything out of his home. They didn't They
Speaker 4: executed eight days of searches on just several warrants that
Speaker 4: don't even allow for eight days. They pulled everything out
Speaker 4: of his house, out of his bedroom, garaging. They found
Speaker 4: nothing linking him to Teresa hallback. Okay, so now, and
Speaker 4: if you're gonna stick this guy, there's no blood evidence.
Speaker 4: The the crime scene units all involved. But you ain't
Speaker 4: getting nothing on an eight day search, you know, so,
Speaker 4: so you have to pretty much have an accomplice to say,
Speaker 4: oh wait, I was there with uncle Steve. Jerome Bewden
Speaker 4: actually was handling for the state and as early as
Speaker 4: two thousand and three in December juvenile recording an electronic
Speaker 4: NARTU in the juveniles and he was drafting this in
Speaker 4: state bills, Assembly bills and Senate bills for the state
Speaker 4: to move in this Avery Task Force policies that they
Speaker 4: were they were adding to their political agenda. Now peg
Speaker 4: Lautenschlagger had had in just in September, has had they
Speaker 4: started the Criminal Justice Study Force and it took over
Speaker 4: the Avery Task Force. And she takes Beuten up with
Speaker 4: him and they're focusing and on electronic electronic monitor juveniles.
Speaker 4: So you have Brendan Dassey being coersed in March, but
Speaker 4: in February two thousand and six, just a month before,
Speaker 4: and this is four months after Stephen Avery was arrested
Speaker 4: in November two thousand and five, He's cleared from all
Speaker 4: this crime scenes. The nothing links to him that they
Speaker 4: actually targeted the Dassy boys, the brothers. There's five, there's
Speaker 4: five brothers, and they needed an accomplice. And in February,
Speaker 4: on the twenty fourth, Peg Lautenschlagger, at one of these
Speaker 4: Criminal Justice committee meetings, releases her model policy on how
Speaker 4: to record juveniles and lo and behold, Jerome Beden is
Speaker 4: one of the persons who's drafted it up. And this
Speaker 4: is on February twenty fourth. Three days later, they go
Speaker 4: and interview all of the Dassy brothers again on the
Speaker 4: twenty seventh, and Brendan Dacy, the youngest of the nephews,
Speaker 4: who was the slowest, ends up being falsely coerced into
Speaker 4: a confession that he never had anything to do with it.
Speaker 4: It just reflects how Jerome Butting and Lautenschlagger were involved
Speaker 4: in their recording the juveniles before Brendan Dacy was even coerced.
Speaker 4: And we're talking like down to the days right before,
Speaker 4: not like like months before, but I'm talking like three
Speaker 4: days before they're even coerced, or before Brendan Dacy's ever coerced.
Speaker 4: Lattenschlagger and Jerome Butten have a hand in the electronic
Speaker 4: monitor in the juveniles for the state.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you talk about the controversial haulback voicemails, and you
Speaker 6: talk about what's very again an ineffective council. I have
Speaker 6: to agree with you here when you show the cross examination,
Speaker 6: So explain this cross examination. He has an opportunity to
Speaker 6: to cross examine Mike Hallback and ask some tough questions
Speaker 6: about you know, erased voicemails. So explain this for our audience, please.
Speaker 4: Right, Teresa had eighteen voicemails that supposedly her brother had
Speaker 4: deleted during the time that she was reported missing. Why
Speaker 4: you would elite voicemails during the disappearance of your sister
Speaker 4: is beyond me. I mean, those voicemails show her very
Speaker 4: last movements of her so called life at that time,
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, it's just and Mike Mike hall
Speaker 4: Back at this time was studying and had a communication
Speaker 4: from college for as a communication degree. You know, he
Speaker 4: works for the Green Bay Packers now and handles all
Speaker 4: their video feed and he's a director there in the
Speaker 4: video department. But he had a degree in communications, and
Speaker 4: he's the leading these voicemails and when he's being and
Speaker 4: Terror are questioned by he was never a suspect, but
Speaker 4: he's being he's being questioned across examined by Jerome Beden.
Speaker 4: Butden gives the shortest cross examination of the whole trial
Speaker 4: and just ask Mike callback. He's like, so what he
Speaker 4: just he just said, and you you erased all these
Speaker 4: messages and he's like yeah, and and Butden never goes
Speaker 4: into detail to find out who they were. He never says, well,
Speaker 4: who were these type of people? How were they related
Speaker 4: to Treesa? When was the last one called? It's just like, okay,
Speaker 4: thank you, Mike, get off the stag the stand and exit.
Speaker 4: You know. It's it's like Stephen Avery hired these this
Speaker 4: this defense team to find out who could have possibly
Speaker 4: seen her last after she leaves Avery Road. And he
Speaker 4: doesn't even question any of the people that were calling
Speaker 4: into her phone.
Speaker 6: Incredible, Now you explain the contaminated bullet fragment and the
Speaker 6: bullet that was mysteriously found months later. Tell us about
Speaker 6: this bullet fragment and the bleach theory. Tell us about this.
Speaker 4: Look if okay, the bullet fragment goes in with Dassy's
Speaker 4: confession the fort when Stephen is arrested in November, they're
Speaker 4: searching the property for eight days and they found shells,
Speaker 4: but they never find any bullets. And it's not until
Speaker 4: after Brendan Dacy, the nephew, gets coerced that they go
Speaker 4: back to the garage where Brendan says, oh, he's shut
Speaker 4: her in the garage, and they walk in this garage
Speaker 4: and they find this bullet fragment. I mean, it's not
Speaker 4: even a whole bull it's a tiny little fragment. But
Speaker 4: its supposedly laying in one of the places that Brendan
Speaker 4: Dassy and Stephen Avery were supposed to have poured down,
Speaker 4: bleached and cleaned the garage. Yet. Okay, and I don't
Speaker 4: know about you, but in my scientific research studying, if
Speaker 4: bleach touches the DNA, it destroys it, you know, And
Speaker 4: we're talking about a tiny bullet that if it laid
Speaker 4: in this spot, which which it couldn't have moved that
Speaker 4: much since the past four months. If they poured bleach everywhere,
Speaker 4: bleach would have gotten on his bullet fragment. So how
Speaker 4: do you find DNA on a bullet fragment. I mean
Speaker 4: there's a tiny, tiny bullet fragment. Yet it's supposed to
Speaker 4: have set in bleach, you know, I mean it should
Speaker 4: should be clean. And so it just blows my mind,
Speaker 4: is how they go and allegedly say, oh, we found
Speaker 4: a bullet that went through Reese's skull and here it is,
Speaker 4: and then it gets contaminated by Sherry colehint hanging of
Speaker 4: the crime state lab.
Speaker 6: Can you take chrimeuting?
Speaker 4: Never?
Speaker 6: Sorry, go ahead, I.
Speaker 4: Was just saying that that this bullet frame ends up
Speaker 4: getting contaminated by this the state crime lab on personnel's
Speaker 4: Sherry Colehane.
Speaker 6: You talk about it the trial, the beauting never contends,
Speaker 6: never challenges the mission of the forensic evidence with the
Speaker 6: bullet and the contaminated the bullet, does he right?
Speaker 4: That's right? And Norman Gann, who was a special prosecutor
Speaker 4: Jerome Butten spent two years nearly on the Avery Task
Speaker 4: Force with Both of these men have forensic degrees. Okay,
Speaker 4: Jerome Butting got a forensic degree, so as a defense attorney,
Speaker 4: he can better better understand the the forendic when he's
Speaker 4: representing a defendant who needs forensic science. Okay, okay, Norman Gan.
Speaker 4: Since this case, he he has been awarded and he's
Speaker 4: noted as the pioneer of Wisconsin DNA and and and
Speaker 4: they ironically give him this position because he deviated from
Speaker 4: protocol to make things make sense during this case. They're like, oh, well,
Speaker 4: we got Brendan Dacy's confession. We have a bullet. Yeah,
Speaker 4: Sherry Coleheen contaminated it, but it doesn't matter. We're going
Speaker 4: to allow it to be entered into evidence. And the
Speaker 4: funny thing is is is just a couple of months
Speaker 4: prior to this, Norman Gan and Jerome Butting at one
Speaker 4: of the Criminal Justice Study Commission groups with peg Lautenschlagger,
Speaker 4: We're talking about about starting a forensic science committee. That
Speaker 4: wouldn't that wouldn't allow content made evidence to be presented
Speaker 4: in court. But here they are, just months later, in
Speaker 4: this murder trial, allowing contaminated DNA evidence to go through
Speaker 4: this trial to help convict Stephen Avery only because Brendan
Speaker 4: Daci's testimony. You know, if you didn't have Brendan Dasci's testimony,
Speaker 4: that bullet would have definitely been thrown out because it
Speaker 4: have nothing substantiating it. And now that Brendan's testimony has
Speaker 4: been thrown out and considered coerce by three federal judges,
Speaker 4: there's nothing to really substantiate that bullet. Now it's contaminating.
Speaker 6: You talk about it also a very alarming incident legally,
Speaker 6: when Lenn Koshinski's Dassy's public defender sets up a meeting
Speaker 6: between Dassy investigators, tell us what this lawyer does and
Speaker 6: doesn't do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he leaves a sixteen year old kid to defend
Speaker 4: by himself. He goes away on a on a army
Speaker 4: training mission that where he was involved with army. But
Speaker 4: Lenn Kochinski, he was a public defender picked by the
Speaker 4: state for Brendan Dacy. But what everybody needs to realize
Speaker 4: in this is that Jerome Butting's career started with the
Speaker 4: Public Defender's Office and he worked there for years and
Speaker 4: years and years. And while they're sitting on the Avery
Speaker 4: Task Force, the Public Defender's Office had a member that
Speaker 4: represented the public Defender's office, who coerced, who conversed with
Speaker 4: Butden and Gan for years. And this was one of
Speaker 4: kin Lenn Kachinsky's bosses at this time. So, I mean,
Speaker 4: Jerome Butden just literally knows everybody in that department has
Speaker 4: had a life time friendship with everybody there, because that's
Speaker 4: where he sowed his roots, was in the public defending
Speaker 4: his office, working as a public defender before going into
Speaker 4: criminal defense by himself. And for Len Kachinsky to be
Speaker 4: abandoning Brendon Dassy, a sixteen year old kid with a
Speaker 4: special with a special education, and I mean, it's just
Speaker 4: horrible that he left them to defend like that. But
Speaker 4: but the thing is is that you know, if you
Speaker 4: got a bark orders for somebody to leave, Kochinsky didn't
Speaker 4: do that by himself. He was told to hey, we're
Speaker 4: gonna set this median up, but you're not gonna make
Speaker 4: it because I mean, I mean, you don't just leave
Speaker 4: a sixteen year old kid abandoning this case with the
Speaker 4: political agenda going on in it. I mean, it would
Speaker 4: have never happened anywhere else if the political agenda was
Speaker 4: it tied to it.
Speaker 6: Yes, you talk about also before we talk about Dean
Speaker 6: Strang and JB. Van Holland, Attorney General in two thousand
Speaker 6: and eight, let's talk about a very important incident with
Speaker 6: Richard Mahler was dismissed during jury deliberations or during deliberations
Speaker 6: pardon me so, and there was a phone call for
Speaker 6: about a family incident. Tell us what you write about
Speaker 6: in there and you speculate that that's.
Speaker 4: Just Richard Mahler Rick Ray, if you will, is that
Speaker 4: he's listed on the jury on the on the on
Speaker 4: the card for when he was selected, he was against
Speaker 4: voting Avery as being guilty. And there was also I
Speaker 4: think seven other people in before deliberation or at the
Speaker 4: time of deliberation the night that there decided if he's
Speaker 4: guilty or not, that there were seven people that were like,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm not so certain. But this this car
Speaker 4: wreck happens with a family member. It's his stepdaughter. And
Speaker 4: that was really honestly nothing to it. But Calumet County
Speaker 4: Sheriff Jerry Pagel at the time had called in and said,
Speaker 4: hey man, you got a family emergency. Your daughter's been
Speaker 4: in this wreck, and and so he left during deliberation. Now,
Speaker 4: now what is odd about this? Jerome Beting goes, they
Speaker 4: got to tell Stephen that one of the jury's last
Speaker 4: and they had a chance to call a miss trial. Okay.
Speaker 4: And at this time they even find out that there's
Speaker 4: been a cop from Manuchwac County. He's a volunteer cop
Speaker 4: with the Sheriff's office, has a son who was a sergeant. Okay,
Speaker 4: and I believe, if I'm not mistaken, his wife worked
Speaker 4: as a dispatch lady at the at the at the
Speaker 4: Sheriff's office too. And the whole reason for moving the
Speaker 4: trial from manuchwat to Calumet was so the the mantop
Speaker 4: sheriff's office couldn't taint the jury. And then lo and behold,
Speaker 4: you have a Sheriff's office member on the jery. Then
Speaker 4: you have Richard Maler being called in from Calm a
Speaker 4: county sheriff, and saying, oh, you got this big emergency,
Speaker 4: you gotta go, blah blah blah. So he hops out
Speaker 4: of deliberation, and Jerome Beden is like telling this to Steve,
Speaker 4: and he's like, you know, you can call him this
Speaker 4: trial and this stuff. But they allowed the cop to
Speaker 4: stay on the jury pool and they replaced Richard Maller
Speaker 4: with a different Jerry member. And it's like, why did
Speaker 4: they tell Steven to continue with the trial? I mean,
Speaker 4: I mean, I mean they they should have told Steven, hey,
Speaker 4: miss Trill, you got a man twa county Sheriff's office
Speaker 4: member sitting on your jury. He is a volunteer officer,
Speaker 4: He rides around, he puts in three hundred hours a
Speaker 4: year for the Sheriff's office and he's sitting here. But
Speaker 4: they never done any of that. They allowed it. They
Speaker 4: they told Steven, hey, just continue on, just just let's
Speaker 4: just go forward for it. I feel I feel like
Speaker 4: it's in your best the best interest to continue and
Speaker 4: and he could have called a mis try right then
Speaker 4: and the end, but but they advised him to keep
Speaker 4: continuing on with the trial. And this is the this
Speaker 4: is the morning of the day that he gets found convicted.
Speaker 6: Yeah, how does Dean Strength fit into all of this?
Speaker 6: And tell us about his connection to uh Thomas.
Speaker 4: Fallon Selling was a special prosecutor in the original trial.
Speaker 4: I've I've had a email exchange from Ken Kratz and
Speaker 4: he he was threatened to have me sue for criminal
Speaker 4: defamation in my book, and he's like, I'm emailing fouling
Speaker 4: everything about you, and we're going to be watching you, mister,
Speaker 4: all this crazy stuff nonsense. He gets threats every day,
Speaker 4: but people want to kill him. But then if if
Speaker 4: I say, oh wait, I'm going to tell that Fallon
Speaker 4: was working from Lattenschlager's office and he's the third in
Speaker 4: command of the entire state, that he's wanting to pick
Speaker 4: me out of all these people and social media, and
Speaker 4: I'm an immediate threat to him. If they're defending this,
Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying. I mean, if there's nothing
Speaker 4: to it, then why are you making such a big
Speaker 4: deal and sending my email about my book to the
Speaker 4: state capital in Wisconsin? You know, But Fallon and Dean Strang,
Speaker 4: they have a really good connection and friendship. And it's
Speaker 4: just weird because whenever Steven Avery, you know, he didn't
Speaker 4: go looking for these attorneys, they found him. Dean String's
Speaker 4: office was half a block away, half a block walking
Speaker 4: distant from past Lattenschlagger's office in Fallon's office, and Fallon's
Speaker 4: desk was in Lattenschlagger's office. You know, he's the attorney general.
Speaker 4: He's the assisted attorney general, she was the attorney general,
Speaker 4: and that they're just all being assembled right there in
Speaker 4: Madison and has come to ridiculous how contained to Madison
Speaker 4: this case is, You've got these people working in Madison.
Speaker 4: Jerome Butden, he he lived at a Brookville which was
Speaker 4: like forty eight miles from Madison. But he he starts
Speaker 4: on going to Dean String and they start meeting in
Speaker 4: Madison half a block away before they even come to
Speaker 4: Stephen Avery. You know, Jerome, Jerome Butden, he's been he's
Speaker 4: been working with the state capital for two years prior
Speaker 4: to Teresa Halback even disappearing. He's in the political mix.
Speaker 4: So as far as fallon and as far as fallon
Speaker 4: and strange relationship when when your best friends would assist
Speaker 4: the attorney general and then butte and his best friends
Speaker 4: with Lautenschlagger at the time, it's kind of a conflict
Speaker 4: to be working prosecution and defense for Steven Avery. When
Speaker 4: when you're in bed with these people, you.
Speaker 6: Talk about all about the current Wisconsin Attorney General, Brad Schimmel,
Speaker 6: and you either say that he's either part of the
Speaker 6: damage control that is the was the Avery Task Force
Speaker 6: and then the Commission or he was duped by Fallon. Uh,
Speaker 6: maybe you can explain that. And also the connection with
Speaker 6: Shimmel and and ken Kratz, which is very interesting.
Speaker 4: And I wish, I wish I had my political partner
Speaker 4: on the night. He's he's he's at an event right
Speaker 4: now as we speak. He's he works in politics in
Speaker 4: the heart of Wisconsin, and he can help verify a
Speaker 4: lot of things about Shimmel, this in this area. But okay,
Speaker 4: now that Lattenschlager's out of office, the new Attorney General,
Speaker 4: Brad Schimmel and Tom Fallon's desk is still in this
Speaker 4: office now. And a year ago in August, they released
Speaker 4: They said to release Brendan Dacy, and I had it
Speaker 4: pegged before it even happened, that they would stop him
Speaker 4: from being released, that Smol would say, oh wait, no, no,
Speaker 4: don't let them go home. And people are like, oh,
Speaker 4: a federal judge said to release, and so they can't
Speaker 4: stop them. And I was like, no, it's gonna be stopped.
Speaker 4: I even wrote a petition to get people to remove
Speaker 4: Shimmel because Shemo has a band connection to ken Kratz.
Speaker 4: They played in a band called Alibi of all Things
Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety eight together. And then you know, you
Speaker 4: got Fallon, who was the original one of the original prosecutors.
Speaker 4: And now you have Norman Gahm back on the case
Speaker 4: who allowed the contaminated bullet fragment, and you have Sherry
Speaker 4: Cohen back on the case who who contaminated the bullet fragment.
Speaker 4: And these people are all on the new appeal for
Speaker 4: Steven Avery now. But as far as Fallon and Shimmel's connection, Fallon,
Speaker 4: you know, he he worked on appeal when Attorney General JB.
Speaker 4: Holland was Attorney General and he took over from Lawton schlaggered,
Speaker 4: and Shimmel took over from from Holland. And so Fallon
Speaker 4: has been on all these appeals over the past eleven years.
Speaker 4: And it's like every every Attorney General that comes in
Speaker 4: with even with Holland, he's like, okay, we're not letting
Speaker 4: Steven Avery out. He handled that appeal and now he's
Speaker 4: handling this appeal. And I just think that Shimmel is
Speaker 4: honestly being duped at this point, Like like I make
Speaker 4: some references of Fallon being unethical in my book, and
Speaker 4: there's some pretty strong points, so why he shouldn't be
Speaker 4: on this case now. But I believe he's just got
Speaker 4: found Shemel duped in releasing Brendan Dassy because Brendan Dassy.
Speaker 4: June twenty third of this year, two more judges ordered
Speaker 4: his release, and then Brad Shemel steps in and says, hey,
Speaker 4: state emergency appeal. We're not releasing this person. They had
Speaker 4: ninety days to release them, and now here we go.
Speaker 4: Shem's trying everything to stop that prevention. That's because he's
Speaker 4: got foulin whispering little bugs in his ears, you know, like,
Speaker 4: do not release these people, but they all need recused
Speaker 4: from this case.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. Now you talk also about this incredible again you
Speaker 6: say that Lautenschlager is the head of this beauting associated
Speaker 6: with her for so long, Strang Beauting and Strang working together.
Speaker 6: What tell us, as you do, what you find so
Speaker 6: offensive about the Beauting and Strang criminal reform tours. What
Speaker 6: do they say and what do you find most particularly
Speaker 6: offensive and deceptive?
Speaker 4: Well, most I would find it lacking integrity more than offensive.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's kind of disturbing. When Kathleen Zelener tweeted
Speaker 4: back last year, I think it was around April twenty sixteen.
Speaker 4: Steven Avery had written a letter when she had come
Speaker 4: to visit him in jail at a meeting, and he
Speaker 4: written on that thing about the tours. He said, I
Speaker 4: don't get it. They've lost money not coming to help me.
Speaker 4: And that was about them going off and doing these
Speaker 4: tours and you know, charging thirty five dollars of popping.
Speaker 4: They're they're doing tours day in and day out, but
Speaker 4: none of them are really benefiting Steven Avery, if you
Speaker 4: want to know the truth of it. They're kicking back
Speaker 4: money to the WinCE Constant Innocent Project right now, where
Speaker 4: Michael Grisback sits as a board member, and the wins
Speaker 4: Content Innocent Project doesn't get full donations, like what's donated
Speaker 4: goes to their their board, their their director board of directors,
Speaker 4: and Michael Michael Grisback is is one getting a cut
Speaker 4: from these damn tours that are going on. It's just
Speaker 4: absurd that he, you know, Dean Strang he sat on
Speaker 4: the board with Michael gris Back in twenty eleven. It's like, oh,
Speaker 4: we can play in person that that we don't like
Speaker 4: Michael Gresback, we don't like Ken Kratz. We don't like Fallon,
Speaker 4: We don't like lunch like them. Behind the scenes, they're
Speaker 4: all having lunch and bland golf together. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you talk about show. Yeah, you talk about two
Speaker 6: that pam sterm the second cousin to Haulback, who finds
Speaker 6: Teresa's rav four in Avery's salvage yard in less than
Speaker 6: forty five minutes, a forty acre lot with over four
Speaker 6: thousand vehicles. When she calls in, police go right to
Speaker 6: her location. And you say, how would they know that
Speaker 6: exact location? You say, DCI special Agent Tom Sturtivant, along
Speaker 6: with Michael Halback's brother in law, mister Jos are the
Speaker 6: ones to find her cremains. And you say the two
Speaker 6: men look down at the bones magically are in a
Speaker 6: burn pit twenty yards from Avery's. And then it coincides
Speaker 6: with the cat burning story just days before. And you
Speaker 6: say that hundreds of officers on that crime scene. We
Speaker 6: mentioned that before, But you say, only family close to
Speaker 6: Teresa Hallback. Manitua County officials are supposed to be removed
Speaker 6: from the investigation, and the special agents of the d
Speaker 6: c I will find any evidence whatsoever to support their
Speaker 6: theory and their claims to convict Stephen Avery, right, and
Speaker 6: that goes.
Speaker 4: To show you that, like to me, the Halbacks, I
Speaker 4: feel have a really deep connection to this case. Again,
Speaker 4: those people like the DCEI agency, they're they're you know,
Speaker 4: PEG is like their state, their state capital brass pretty much.
Speaker 4: So so PEG can the lot in this latsider can
Speaker 4: get in there and and have those people. It's like three,
Speaker 4: let's let's say we're framing Stephen Avery, and I'm gonna
Speaker 4: walk a box of bones onto the property of if
Speaker 4: if I didn't burns Teresa Hallback there, Stephen was innocent
Speaker 4: and he's being framed. Who better yet than to to
Speaker 4: to be a family member of the Hallbacks and a
Speaker 4: d CI agent where where the sheriff's office and and
Speaker 4: the subordinates in that office? They're not not question a
Speaker 4: d CI. And I mean it's like the FBI kind
Speaker 4: of walking on to the property. And and then you
Speaker 4: got the family. Don't disturb family members at this time.
Speaker 4: But then they're the ones to find these bones. And
Speaker 4: it's like Pam Sterearns, she's the one to find this
Speaker 4: car in the middle of this salvage yard. You got,
Speaker 4: you got acres and acres and acres of land and
Speaker 4: they just drive right up to her. You know, I mean,
Speaker 4: you got thousands of cars on this property. And when
Speaker 4: they call in, they just they go the back roads
Speaker 4: and everything, drive right up to her and find her.
Speaker 4: How do they know exactly on that every salvage yard
Speaker 4: where she is if they didn't plant it in advance,
Speaker 4: because they don't have no they don't have no airplanes
Speaker 4: flying over at this time. They she calls in and
Speaker 4: they just whip right on up to her. Hey, what'd
Speaker 4: you find? And we're talking like the salvage yard is
Speaker 4: amaze if you've never been out, and it's amazed where
Speaker 4: you can get lost. But they but yet they find
Speaker 4: they drive exactly up to Panstern, who's found the rabb
Speaker 4: hor and pastern is the second cousin, and Teresa Hallback
Speaker 4: who Pamstern was trained by a guy named Mike p
Speaker 4: Frisner of the Appleton County Police where she lives and
Speaker 4: this might be prisoner guys said on the Avery Task
Speaker 4: Force with Jerome Beauty and pam Stern, she's a she's
Speaker 4: a p I detective. But they didn't they didn't announce her,
Speaker 4: not even to announce her as a private eye in
Speaker 4: this case. They didn't even announce that she was family
Speaker 4: to retreat the hall back. They said, oh, a friend
Speaker 4: of a friend and a search member party member found this.
Speaker 4: They didn't even they didn't call her what she legitly was. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's the.
Speaker 6: Sn you talk about. You talk about to the the reaction, uh,
Speaker 6: politically with this book, with some of the accusations, allegations, claims, conclusions,
Speaker 6: and tell us a little bit more about your one
Speaker 6: and tell us his last name at least as this
Speaker 6: is an alias, and tell us what the reaction is
Speaker 6: from the information that he was able to impart to you.
Speaker 6: What was the reaction from contemporaries and so and and
Speaker 6: political people in Wisconsin.
Speaker 4: A lot of people refused to talk about it in
Speaker 4: that area, and then then some people are opening on
Speaker 4: one one test crews and suiting them. He's right there
Speaker 4: in the heart of politics in Wisconsin. And it's kind
Speaker 4: of like I run a blog page and I get
Speaker 4: about forty thousand readers a day on it that and
Speaker 4: it talks about the political aspects of the case. And
Speaker 4: they just saw my stuff. He started following my blog
Speaker 4: and he's like he's like, all right, so we got
Speaker 4: a new fresh set of eyes. And it's like he
Speaker 4: got he reached out and contacted me, and we made
Speaker 4: contact and then started discussing the case and he's like, dude,
Speaker 4: I'm right here in the middle of Wisconsin and you're
Speaker 4: seeing things that I don't even see. But then we
Speaker 4: exchange stories of what some of the John Doe investigations
Speaker 4: that are going on today, and he can tell you
Speaker 4: some some disturbing things with the DJ and politics happening
Speaker 4: right now. It's like it's like it's never been the corruption,
Speaker 4: has it been weeded out? And I wish she was
Speaker 4: live with us tonight. You'll have to have them back
Speaker 4: as a guest on your show. But he can tell
Speaker 4: you some crazy stuff. And it all boils down to
Speaker 4: some of the people that we're in politics and during
Speaker 4: the time of this melee with Steven Avery, and they're
Speaker 4: still in politics now. You know Peg Lattenslagger, she has
Speaker 4: declined to speak for eleven years to any journalist, any
Speaker 4: media outlet about the Resa hallback case. And that's kind
Speaker 4: of disturbing, you know. I mean, you're supposed to you're
Speaker 4: defending chi Vane, You're you're you're prosecuting chi Vane because
Speaker 4: you have an interest in people that commit crimes against people.
Speaker 4: But then a month later, whenever Teresa disappears, she was
Speaker 4: seen in your own backyard the day she disappeared, But
Speaker 4: you don't even come forward to help on that case.
Speaker 4: I mean, but but yet her signature is on, is
Speaker 4: on all the crime lab evidence is on. I mean
Speaker 4: her just her signature in general, from from her oral
Speaker 4: arguments to actually signing off on legit documents that are contaminated,
Speaker 4: and it's all in this case. She was heavily attached.
Speaker 4: But yet she won't talk about it.
Speaker 6: We only have a few minutes, but I did not
Speaker 6: ask you questions about the connection with a Lautenschlager and
Speaker 6: Teresa hal Back and her disappearance. So tell us what
Speaker 6: you have found with the last days of the last
Speaker 6: day of Teresa Hallback and its connection.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is disturbing of why I think it's
Speaker 4: one of the reasons Latton Slagger hasn't talked about this case.
Speaker 4: There is a campaign manager she had by the name
Speaker 4: of Todd Smith's now Todd helped her with her her
Speaker 4: attorney general campaign. And what's interesting about this this Todd
Speaker 4: Smith's guy is a blood relative to Stephen M. Smith's.
Speaker 4: Now Steven M. Smith's will be the guy who Teresa
Speaker 4: Halback first visits on the last day she's seen alive.
Speaker 4: Is in the new is in the fond of Lac
Speaker 4: area where peg Lawton Schlagger resides and also where Todd
Speaker 4: Smith's resides now. Back in two thousand and three, peg
Speaker 4: Lawton Slagger was cited for improper use of her vehicle,
Speaker 4: which at an Ethics Board commission hearing Todd Smiths had
Speaker 4: taken up for her and claimed that she didn't use
Speaker 4: the company car. She rode in his car to a
Speaker 4: political event in Racine, Wisconsin. Now, now what's ironic about
Speaker 4: this is that the car that, if that's true about
Speaker 4: Todd's saying that she rode with him, the car that
Speaker 4: Teresa took a photo of the last morning, the day
Speaker 4: she's alive, Peg Lautenschlager had rode in this car. And
Speaker 4: this is the car that belonged to Todd Smith who
Speaker 4: was supposedly handed down to Steven P. Smith, who supposedly
Speaker 4: co owned it with a guy named Craig Sipple who's
Speaker 4: also kin to Lieutenant Kelly Sipple, who who that was
Speaker 4: involved in this case also. But the thing about this
Speaker 4: is Peg Teresa's going to Peg Lattenschlagger's neighborhood on the
Speaker 4: morning of the last day she's alive. She's in the
Speaker 4: area of seeing a blood relative of her attorney general
Speaker 4: campaign manager to take a photo. I mean, you can't
Speaker 4: get more down to earth coincidental. And if you've got
Speaker 4: if you've got a thousand and one coincidence going on,
Speaker 4: it's no longer coincidental. It's a pattern. At a thousand
Speaker 4: one coincidence is a pattern. Why she was taking a
Speaker 4: picture of a car that Lttenschlagger has allegedly ridden in it.
Speaker 4: I mean, it just blows your mind. I mean it's
Speaker 4: like it just just the connections that this is all
Speaker 4: connected in. It's almost like, Okay, yeah, she had a
Speaker 4: hand in it, from from wanting to frame him to
Speaker 4: to the actual conviction. And I mean it spans it
Speaker 4: spans the two year period that she's involved in. Even
Speaker 4: on the table.
Speaker 6: You talk about to Butting, one of the things that
Speaker 6: you can tend too is that it's very very suspicious.
Speaker 6: You've outlined why this would be, but it's very very
Speaker 6: suspicious that Butting never ever states his connection with Lawton
Speaker 6: Schlager whatsoever in any of the Speaking of a Murderer interviews.
Speaker 4: Right, So he'll tell people that, oh, yeah, I was
Speaker 4: on the Avery Task Force. But what he doesn't tell
Speaker 4: he does it say, oh, yeah, me and peg Lattenschlagger,
Speaker 4: we took over the Avery Task Force and renamed renamed
Speaker 4: it to the Criminal Justice Study Commission. And then I
Speaker 4: was sitting with peg Lautenschlagger why I defended Stephen Avery.
Speaker 4: He won't dare tell people that Dean string appear appeared
Speaker 4: in a meeting in a in a sit down discussion
Speaker 4: in Dane County, Wisconsin with one of the the district
Speaker 4: attorneys there and peg Lattenschlager showed up. And this is
Speaker 4: since they started their their tours, their tours they've been
Speaker 4: doing since Snak and Murder. And this is the only
Speaker 4: time that Jerome Butting was not available and he took
Speaker 4: a flight to Italy to go see family members like
Speaker 4: literally and peg Lottenschlager has showed up at this event
Speaker 4: in Dane County. And this is the only time since
Speaker 4: January twenty sixteen that Demstring and Jerome Butden have ever
Speaker 4: been separated as appearing together as guests, as a as
Speaker 4: a duo, as a team, and it's only when Lattenschlagger
Speaker 4: comes to this event. Now, see if Buden has showed
Speaker 4: up with this event with Luttenschlager, you'd have people saying, oh, wait,
Speaker 4: didn't you start that Criminal Justice Study Commission and replaced
Speaker 4: Avery Task Force. Buden does not want this information. I mean,
Speaker 4: he's blocked me on Twitter when I when I when
Speaker 4: I was doing research on my book and I was
Speaker 4: asking about his his relationship to her, and He's like, oh,
Speaker 4: I don't need ken Kratz attacking me right now. It's like,
Speaker 4: what does ken Kratz have to do with with me
Speaker 4: asking your relationship to Attorney General Luttenschlager. He did not
Speaker 4: want this information out.
Speaker 6: One last question I want to ask you. What last
Speaker 6: question is. We're out of time, but I want to
Speaker 6: ask you this one question. Do you think because this
Speaker 6: Making a Murderer took quite a while to actually come
Speaker 6: to fruition ten years and then released on Netflix Netflix,
Speaker 6: do you really do you think that to a certain degree,
Speaker 6: drum Butting and Dean Strang were surprised at this success
Speaker 6: and then just adapted to that went with it. But
Speaker 6: were they surprised this doc's release and especially surprised at
Speaker 6: all the attention.
Speaker 4: I believe they were surprised. I mean that this this
Speaker 4: documentary actually played in a film festival. I think we're
Speaker 4: one of the creators, one of the girls had I
Speaker 4: went to college at and actually back in two thousand
Speaker 4: and eight, which it was only like a two hour
Speaker 4: program at that time, which they built on it since then.
Speaker 4: But Jerome Butden had a lot to do with directing
Speaker 4: the things that went into it. A lot of people
Speaker 4: don't realize, but yeah, when it hit Netflix, you can't
Speaker 4: depict how big anything's ever going to be. It's a
Speaker 4: hit and miss in this day and time with the thing.
Speaker 4: But the thing is they had no choice but to
Speaker 4: stay and roll and pretend like they're on Avery's side.
Speaker 4: But Jerome Butten in a magazine in twenty twelve, he
Speaker 4: admitted to Super Lawyer's magazine that he played a bad
Speaker 4: cop during the during the entire trial process with Steven
Speaker 4: Avery because he kind of really didn't believe his innocence.
Speaker 4: But he won't dare admit that now. But they have
Speaker 4: no choice but to stay and roll and and and
Speaker 4: and they're they're, oh, I was the defense and you
Speaker 4: was the prosecutor. And they argue with Kratz, who's no
Speaker 4: longer even attached to it. And they do that purposely
Speaker 4: to keep people from looking up at Thomas Fallon and
Speaker 4: Peg lunchlagger in Madison. That that's why it's being done.
Speaker 4: It's a political ploy. It is this they're they're dumbing
Speaker 4: it down to the county level. They don't want nobody
Speaker 4: looking up You look up it and it reveals stuff.
Speaker 4: It reveals the truth of what happened.
Speaker 6: Yes, incredible. I want to thank you very much Chad
Speaker 6: Spencer Keller for coming and talking about Beyond Every Road.
Speaker 6: We will have to have you back because this is
Speaker 6: an incredible story and it's not going to go away, certainly,
Speaker 6: and there's more to talk about, uh, Beyond every Road
Speaker 6: Viuting in the Beast. For those that might want to
Speaker 6: find this book, you know it's on fastpencil, and also
Speaker 6: you have a fantastic book trailer, So tell us about
Speaker 6: how they might look at and view this trailer, how
Speaker 6: they might contact you or look at your work and
Speaker 6: be able to get a copy of.
Speaker 7: This book.
Speaker 4: Fastpencil dot com. You can find me in Marketplace, or
Speaker 4: you can check my blog side out is ww dot
Speaker 4: productionsouth dot WordPress dot com. You can even sign a
Speaker 4: petition to have Fallin recused as the appeal as a
Speaker 4: prosecutor on this appeal if you need to. But those
Speaker 4: are the links to go to.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, did you a Facebook page at all, Chad?
Speaker 4: I don't. I'm in the process of building a Facebook
Speaker 4: page for the book. I just haven't gotten there yet.
Speaker 4: I've been kind of marketing and through my blog side
Speaker 4: at the moment.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, it's a fine book, and I I want to
Speaker 6: thank you once again for coming on and talking about
Speaker 6: this very very very interesting and provocative and spellbinding tale
Speaker 6: that doesn't seem to go away beyond Avery Road. Thank
Speaker 6: you very much, Chad Spencer Keller. You have a great evening.
Speaker 6: Hope to talk to you again soon. Thank you very much.
Speaker 4: Thanks thanks for having me. You have a good night
Speaker 4: you too. Good night,