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True Murder with 57 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:37.199 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 58 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:51.879 Good evening in the state of Wisconsin. After being exonerated 59 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:57.039 for a wrongful conviction on September eleventh, two thousand and three, 60 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.960 Stephen Avery became a very political name in a very 61 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:04.599 political time. Two years later, when arrested for the intentional 62 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:08.240 homicide of Teresa Halback during a time when he filed 63 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:12.319 a thirty six million dollar civil suit, Stephen alleges he 64 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:16.439 was ultimately framed by corrupt state officials to thwart off 65 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:21.599 his chances of winning the suit. However, the Wisconsin Department 66 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:24.800 of Justice argues that it was impossible for any such 67 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:28.800 frame job to ever have happened. Though could the framing 68 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:34.120 be probable if the mo was political? What did Netflix 69 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:39.159 making a murderer miss? The political story behind Stephen avery 70 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:44.960 saga has remained untold until now. Possibly the most gripping 71 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:50.199 political thriller you'll be reading in twenty seventeen, thirty seven 72 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:53.240 years experience on the newsroom floor, and I've never witnessed 73 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:56.599 what every journalist should be asking our legislators about the 74 00:03:56.680 --> 00:04:01.400 possible corruption in our American justice system. Keller's delivery is 75 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:05.400 provocative and exposes a much needed change in criminal reform. 76 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:10.400 The book that we're featuring this evening is Beyond Avery, Road, 77 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:15.520 Beauting and the Beast, with my special guest, Chad Spencer Keller. 78 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:18.120 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 79 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:29.839 agreeing to this interview. Chad Spencer Keller. Good evening, Chad, 80 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:35.399 Good evening, Chad Spencer Keller. 81 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:36.920 How are you doing the night? 82 00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:40.560 Dan, very good, Thank you, thank you for joining us 83 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:45.800 for this very very important book. Let's start with why 84 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:50.360 was this story and this case about Stephen Avery important 85 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:54.079 to you especially? And tell us the circumstances in which 86 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:58.079 you came to be involved in this story. 87 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:04.360 Well, I had a wrongful conviction of myself. I spent 88 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:07.959 four years in a Georgia state prison, a seven year 89 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:13.439 long legal battle with the system, and when I started 90 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:17.519 researching more into depth of Stephen Avery's case, I realized 91 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:21.040 that it went beyond Manitoac County, that it really got 92 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:25.439 into the political aspect, and I just wanted to make 93 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:30.680 everybody aware that governmental misconduct is real. It exits coast 94 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.160 to coast, and there was some very disturbing things I 95 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:36.480 found out during this case, so I wanted to write 96 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:37.199 a book about it. 97 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:44.720 Now, this book has got the title as well, Beyond Avery, World, Butting, 98 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:48.959 and the Beast. And you're referring to Jerome Butting part 99 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:52.120 of the team of Jerome Butting and Dean Strang. If 100 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:56.000 people are aware of they were counseled for Stephen Avery 101 00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:00.160 in his murder trial of Teresa Halback. And also so 102 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:02.800 now if people are aware and they are aware of 103 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.399 making a murder, these are the as you call them, 104 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:12.839 superstar lawyers, heart throbs. Jerome Butting especially is in your crosshairs. 105 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:18.360 In this you say that Stephen Avery didn't choose Jerome Butting, 106 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:23.199 but rather the other way around. So let's begin where 107 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:26.959 you look at this story and what you purport in 108 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.759 this book is to look and ask some questions of 109 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:34.680 Jerome Butting. So let's for our audience ask those questions 110 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:37.040 about Jerome Butting that you do in this book. 111 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:46.279 Jerome Butting was very highly active on the political scene 112 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:50.519 when Steven Avery was exonerated in two thousand and three 113 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:55.480 for a nineteen eighty five sexual assault an attempt to 114 00:06:55.560 --> 00:07:00.639 murder charge that DNA freed him from. And the thing 115 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:06.959 is he was very politically attached to the Attorney General 116 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:11.279 at the time, who was peg Lautenschlagger, who wrote a 117 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:16.720 December seventeenth, two thousand and three report protecting Mantewac County 118 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:20.839 of that wrongful conviction of Stephen Avery. And for Jerome 119 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:26.639 Bewden to have been working this exoneration and then become 120 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:33.160 involved in Stephen Avery's murder trial two years two and 121 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:37.720 three years later, he shouldn't have been there. It's a 122 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:42.240 complete conflict of interest. They have made an Avery task 123 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:47.199 Force on Steven's name in his behalf to attack these 124 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:51.560 political issues. Well, that task force got renamed to the 125 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:57.000 Criminal Justice Study Commission only two months before Teresa Hallback 126 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:04.040 was allegedly murdered. And Jerome Beuten is sitting on this 127 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:08.000 and created it with the Attorney General who's protected minute 128 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:11.879 wea so for him to be defending Stephen Avery and 129 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:18.000 doing her political agenda it's it's complete collusion for the system. 130 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.800 It's a conflict of interest in the fullest he should 131 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:21.800 have never been there. 132 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:27.439 Let's go back, because I know this people are confused 133 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:31.160 already because we've just opened up too much at one time. 134 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:34.519 So let's go back to a little bit, like you say, 135 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:38.399 the Making a Murderer. If people came to this story 136 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:41.519 at that point, and a lot of millions of people 137 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:44.960 came to this story there. I've interviewed Michael Grees back 138 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:48.399 when his book before the title changed the Innocent Killer, 139 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:52.960 and so I have his version of things since making 140 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:56.559 of Making a Murderer and before, and so I became 141 00:08:56.600 --> 00:09:00.120 aware of this story a few years ago. So now, 142 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:02.799 like everyone else, I was affected by Making a Murderer, 143 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:08.240 and I think conclusions are drawn from that. And you say, listen, 144 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:10.600 we got to take a look at that making of 145 00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:13.159 a murderer, making a murderer, but also the two years 146 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:17.919 in between Avery's exoneration. So please go back and explain 147 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:22.240 in more detail exactly who Jerome Beauting was. And we 148 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:25.279 talk about this task force. Tell us a little bit 149 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:28.360 more about the formation of the task force. But what 150 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:32.000 happens involving Michael Greesback, so that we can talk about 151 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:34.639 Michael Greesback and his connection to his own brother, as 152 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:37.080 you do later in the book. Let's talk about how 153 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:42.600 he was released and under what conditions, and as you 154 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:47.919 explain the paltry sum that was initially I guess they 155 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.000 were trying to give to him for the eighteen years 156 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:53.879 in prison, and tell us how they got as you do, 157 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:57.000 how they get to the thirty six million, and how 158 00:09:57.080 --> 00:10:05.320 did Manitouwac County and pay Schlager and other people react, right, 159 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:06.480 and that that. 160 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:10.440 Takes a book to do about all of that. But yeah, 161 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:15.559 we'll start with when Stephen Avery was in prison. He 162 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:20.440 was he he got exonerated at a at eighteen years 163 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:25.200 of a thirty six year sentence. DNA cleared him when 164 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:31.360 when new new scientific technology for DNA was available, it 165 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.440 cleared him of this rape charge and attempted murder charge 166 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.919 at Penny Binston and Michael gris Back he was actually 167 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:44.759 one of the people that was helping the winsconsin Innocent 168 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:49.279 project to free Stephen Avery. So when the DNA releases 169 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:53.799 him and he's a gonerated, Michael Grisback was concerned about 170 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:58.519 it because it was in his own words, governmental misconduct 171 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:04.919 to the fullest, and he approached peg Lattenschlagger one hundred 172 00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:08.759 and forty eight miles away in Madison, Wisconsin, to have 173 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:14.080 an investigation done on why Stephen Avery went to prison. 174 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:19.679 So then a bunch of politicians and senators got together 175 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:23.000 and they created the Avery Task Force. Now Jerome Bewden 176 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:27.360 at this time he sat on the Criminal Law Section. 177 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:31.480 He was the Board of Directors for the Criminal Law 178 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.480 Section of the Wisconsin State Bar. So a guy named 179 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:39.519 Mark Gundrum appointed him as part of this task force 180 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:46.279 to work behind the scenes politically. And Lautenschlagger at the time, 181 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:50.919 she was being dean very unethical, she had a dui 182 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:55.919 or wrong, she was using state vehicles improperly, and she 183 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.320 was just getting a bad rep. So she didn't want 184 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:01.879 nothing to do with this Avery Task Force to begin with, 185 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:07.519 because of she was the person who controlled the budget 186 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:10.799 for a DOJ and she was protected Manetwa County for 187 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:14.360 Sennant Stephen Avery to prison in nineteen eighty five. Well, 188 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:18.720 the way that Lattenschlagger and Jerome Beden became friends is 189 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:23.399 that it comes through Janet Reno, the US Attorney General 190 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:30.799 who is Lattenschlagger's heroin and idol, and Butten actually helped 191 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:35.440 funded an appearance by her to the Avery Task Force 192 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:39.840 to speak on tunnel vision. And this is where Beating 193 00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:45.159 and Lautenschlagger's political connections really starts peaking. This is in 194 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:49.200 two thousand and four. This is about a month and 195 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:52.799 a year and three months before Teresa even disappears. So 196 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:59.200 he was ceded to benefit the state and they eventually 197 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:02.879 took over d Avery Task Force. What Davery Task Force 198 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:10.080 was designed to do was to implement new political structured 199 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.159 guidelines to keep people from going to prison. Now what 200 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:15.919 it should have been doing, It should have been getting 201 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.600 people out of prison. When Stephen Avery was exonerated, nine 202 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:25.279 hundred people wrote into the WinCE Kinnic Constant Innocent Project 203 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:30.399 to have their cases reviewed, but they were told that 204 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.200 they would never go free because the State Crime Lab 205 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:36.960 didn't have the manpower to freedom. So instead of getting 206 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:40.360 the people out of prison, which would have resulted in 207 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:43.799 nearly a billion dollars in losses for the DOJ, they 208 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.159 focused on saving the state money and putting guidelines into 209 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:52.000 effect to keep other people like Stephen from going They 210 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:57.080 just said that, hell with everybody that was in there already. 211 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:01.919 So when Duden, when he actually becomes a part of 212 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:08.320 Stephen Avery's defense council, he is still attached to the 213 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:13.159 Attorney General, who still has a personal agenda at this 214 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:19.519 point of protecting Manitouk County from Stephen Avery. So this 215 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:22.679 is where the collusion and conflict kind of ties in, 216 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:26.759 is that he's sitting on a task force that they 217 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:32.480 renamed and created and it's supposed to be benefiting Steven Avery, 218 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:34.559 but it's really benefit in the state of Wisconsin. 219 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:43.440 You talk about the task force itself that was put 220 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:47.399 together and you say that as you as you just 221 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:51.519 mentioned that its real purpose was to prevent anything like 222 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:54.080 this happening again, and you provide the documentation for that. 223 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:57.480 This I found incredible. You provide the actual actual document 224 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:02.440 so it's not just your opinion based on this information 225 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:05.559 and what she has actually said at these meetings. Now 226 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:11.559 you talk about the Stephen Avery suing his or trying 227 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:15.000 to petition the courts that he had ineffective counsel, and 228 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:17.879 then this making a murderer you talk about, and I 229 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.519 don't know if everyone knows it took ten years to 230 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:23.840 release this to make this and to release this. Now 231 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:26.519 you talk about this ineffective council and at the time 232 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:32.519 people didn't take Avery too seriously. Is that what people 233 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:36.559 miss in Making a Murderer is that these beauting and 234 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.759 strang just came to the spotlight, not out of their 235 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:44.159 own accord that and you talk about how they're just 236 00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.919 playing when they go on this criminal reform tours. So 237 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.159 tell us what you say in the book about the 238 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:53.879 difference between what he is presenting and what really went on. 239 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:59.840 Okay, yeah, first of all, everybody needs to realize that 240 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:05.399 Stephen Avery, if you're an Avery supporter, and there's millions 241 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:09.240 of them out there and they hate the prosecutor Ken Krats, 242 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:12.000 and first I just want to say if you're if 243 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:17.200 you're an Avery supporter, Stephen Avery has about as much 244 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:23.120 respect for Dean String and Jerome Butting as these people 245 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:28.120 do for Ken Krats. And it's funny because Making a Murderer, 246 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.919 the very first time anybody ever ever heard of String 247 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.159 and Butting was was during the documentary and it made 248 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:39.039 them look as if they were these superhero heartthrob attorneys. 249 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:43.519 But they're missing the concept of how they got there. 250 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:47.360 And Steven Avery never went through the yellow pages and 251 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:52.759 picked these these attorneys out. These attorneys were appointed by 252 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:57.360 people that were sitting on Lattenschlagger's commission with Jerome Butting. 253 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:02.279 It's like his civil suit attorney, Stephen Glenn, who was 254 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.599 handling thirty six million dollars civil suit. He comes to 255 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.880 Stephen and he's like, hey, I got these two people 256 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:11.559 that would be great in handling this case for you, 257 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.319 and if you want to agree to settle out, you 258 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.960 can spend the settlement money to get these lawyers to 259 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:22.000 get you off of this murder charge. So so guess 260 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:27.240 who gets the money of that. Stephen Glenn, Jerome Bewden, 261 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:33.720 Dean Strain, and another civil attorney which was Walt Kelly. 262 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:37.799 But what was it involved in it? As much as 263 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:43.279 Steven M. Glenn was, he turned his head and my 264 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:46.440 research and he should have blown a whistle on what 265 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:48.079 was going on, but they didn't. But all four of 266 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:52.240 them split the money of Stephen's settlement and they were 267 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:56.680 appointed by the state to go in there. Steven didn't 268 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:59.680 pick these attorneys out, and and it's just blows my 269 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:04.200 mind that these people can sit here and and they 270 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.519 don't understand the way that the system works and that 271 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:08.640 this is a conflict. 272 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:15.200 Can you explain for us about the forty nine thousand 273 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:18.559 dollars was initially offered, which was twenty four thousand dollars 274 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.599 which was for attorney fees at Avery had spent on 275 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:25.160 and tell us what the progression of the offer was 276 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:28.119 with a million dollars in their counteroffer and how it 277 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:30.359 got up to thirty six million dollars. Like I say, 278 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:36.279 you talk about how important it was to Lattenschlager this 279 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:39.119 thirty six million dollars. What did this thirty six million 280 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:45.880 dollars represent to Manitua County and to the Attorney General Lattenschlager. 281 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:51.759 Well, Lautenschlager, she was the Attorney General, so she was 282 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:55.759 in charge of the Department of Justice budget. And when 283 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:59.680 these people start getting sued is coming from there. But 284 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.000 Stephen Avery, A lot of people are under the misconception 285 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:05.839 that he just hops out of prison and sued for 286 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:09.240 thirty six million dollars. But that's not how it went down. 287 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:14.440 When Stephen gets out, Stephen he petitioned the Wins Consin 288 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:18.000 Claims Board for one point one million dollars, which was 289 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.599 a fair affair. Shake at things after losing your family, 290 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:24.119 being locked up for eighteen years. He was going to 291 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:27.200 use the money to start his life over about half 292 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:28.960 of that, and he's going to donate half of it 293 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:32.279 to the Wisconsin Innocent Project to help free other people. 294 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:37.839 But the Wisconsin Claims Board under a Wisconsin state law 295 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.960 I haven't listed in my book, it goes back one 296 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:44.599 hundred years where it only gives you five thousand dollars 297 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:49.000 a year for the time that you serve, but it 298 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:53.039 caps off in two thousand and three, at the time 299 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:56.440 of Avery's at generation, it caps off at twenty five 300 00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:59.839 thousand dollars. So the Wisconsin Board could only give st 301 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:02.920 even Avery twenty five thousand dollars. And he was told 302 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.920 by the chairman to go petition the legislation. So this 303 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:10.319 is where he does a second petition, and he petitions 304 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:15.839 the legislation and Mark Gundrum, who created the Avery Task Force, 305 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:19.799 he comes up with the idea to give Steven Avery 306 00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:24.039 four hundred and sixty thousand dollars and that's even that's 307 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:26.440 still less than half of what he's asking for. And 308 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.279 the funny thing is is that Jerome Beden was one 309 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.759 of the lead authors on this bill, that wanted to 310 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.000 give Steven Avery less than half the money, you know, 311 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.759 because he's he's seeded to benefit the state and saving 312 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:46.519 money and and so so Steven has said, well you 313 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:53.240 wanna you want to go at me again and and 314 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.759 deny me twice at his one point one million dollars. 315 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:57.640 He's doing everything he can to do a fair state. 316 00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:59.839 So he decides to sue him for thirty six million. 317 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:02.519 And I mean, they kept turning them down. So then 318 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:05.920 when he gets sued, this is when Lottenschlager comes in 319 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:09.279 and takes over the Avery Task Force. Because as long 320 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:12.880 as Steven's name is attached to that Avery Task Force, 321 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:18.039 then he has a shot at getting every bit of 322 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:22.160 that money. Because the governor was having to play on 323 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:24.440 Stephen's side, and you know that he was he was 324 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:28.799 the poster child for wrongful convictions. But you had a purse, 325 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:33.519 put a force, a push and pull in the system 326 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:39.559 where Governor Doyle at the time and Lottenschlagger, where we're 327 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:42.480 bumping heads, they were in they were in disputes over 328 00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:45.640 this thing. So lotten Schlagger changed the Avery name, gets 329 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.759 it out of there, get gets it out of the 330 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.200 task force, and renames it, and then her and Butden 331 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:54.880 literally created it and took over it. And when Butden 332 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:58.640 comes in to defend Stephen Avery, this murder charge of 333 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:03.240 Teresa Hallback, he's sot on this commission with the Attorney 334 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:07.440 General and he still attached to the state. It's like, Hey, 335 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:09.680 I'm just gonna come over here and pretend like I'm 336 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.599 helping you. But really, if you do the research and 337 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:17.680 there's solid, solid evidence on it, he was there to 338 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:21.680 complement the state and not Stephen Avery. During that defense trial. 339 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:29.680 You again, this documentation that you provide to back up 340 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:35.960 your again provocative in your claims, you say. On December seventeenth, 341 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:41.720 the Luttenslagger releases a report and she says, after this again, 342 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.839 this wrongful conviction, no basis to lay criminal charges or 343 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:51.000 assert ethics violations against anyone in the investigation or prosecution 344 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:54.559 of this case. At worst, the Sheriff's department failed to 345 00:22:54.559 --> 00:23:00.799 investigate a viable suspect, Gregory Allen, because they tried to 346 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:05.759 capture too quickly. And you say, critics called this report 347 00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:07.480 a whitewash, including gris Back. 348 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:15.279 That's that's correct. Whenever he was exonerated from his original charge, 349 00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:21.559 they had information back in nineteen eighty five, really that 350 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:27.599 Gregory Allen was more of a suspect than than Steven Avery. 351 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:33.920 And then in two thousand and in nineteen ninety eight, 352 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.920 I want to believe it was there was a investigator 353 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:42.920 at the time, Colburn, he was. He was a detective 354 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:47.359 working there, just just getting phone calls, and someone called 355 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:52.599 in and told him that Gregory Allen had admitted to 356 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:54.720 this crime. 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Now you're talking about you La, 384 00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:15.960 go ahead, you lay this, You lay this all out 385 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.039 in terms of and you talk about the Wisconsin's new 386 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:24.599 governance experiment in two thousand and five and what this 387 00:25:24.680 --> 00:25:29.480 actually gave Lattenschlager the ability to do. And it's incredible 388 00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:31.440 that you talk about the task Force and then it's 389 00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:34.680 changing its name, it's changing its directions, changing its focus, 390 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:38.400 and you talk about the personal feud as you mentioned 391 00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:42.720 with Governor Jim Doyle, and but you also talk about 392 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:45.880 this breast cancer you talk about a lot of contributing 393 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:48.799 factors that may or may not be contributing factors, but 394 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.240 at least you put them into your argument and it 395 00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:53.599 seems viable. So tell us a little bit about what 396 00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:55.960 was going on in our personal life that may have 397 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.400 contributed to Again, we're not there yet, but we're going 398 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:04.279 to talk about this conspiracy that you're laying out, this 399 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:09.920 this conspiracy to let's again, let's let's go to this 400 00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:13.519 new governance experiment and this feud and what was happening 401 00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:17.400