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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path went Chile for part two

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<v Speaker 1>of our series about the disappearance of Justin Bergwinkle, Robin,

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<v Speaker 1>do you want to catch everyone up? And we talked

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<v Speaker 1>about in our previous episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Justin Bergwinkle was twenty one years old and had

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<v Speaker 2>been enlisted in the Army for a couple of years.

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<v Speaker 2>He was hoping to earn a spot as an Army

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<v Speaker 2>ranger and he had also been in the Defense Language Institute,

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<v Speaker 2>but his career hit a major snag when he was

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<v Speaker 2>caught shoplifting, so he wound up being demoted and wound

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<v Speaker 2>up doing kitchen duty instead and wound up being transferred

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<v Speaker 2>forward or in California. By nineteen ninety three, he had

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<v Speaker 2>been transferred to Fort Lewis and Washington State and was

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<v Speaker 2>maintaining a long distance relationship with his girlfriend, Yolanda Antunez,

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<v Speaker 2>who still lived in California. But Justin was getting a

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<v Speaker 2>bit discouraged because he was unable to rise above the

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<v Speaker 2>rank of private. He was still stuck doing kitchen duty,

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<v Speaker 2>and it just seemed like he was just going to

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<v Speaker 2>fill out his years and then be discharged. But he

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<v Speaker 2>started dropping all these cryptic statements that he had been

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<v Speaker 2>recruited for some sort of secret mission. He would show

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<v Speaker 2>up to see his girlfriend with this briefcase, which supposedly

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<v Speaker 2>contained classified documents. He was tearing up, and there was

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<v Speaker 2>one time when somebody left a message with his girlfriend

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<v Speaker 2>saying tell Justin the missions off. And when Yolanda told

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<v Speaker 2>Justin about it, he kind of had a breakdown, but

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<v Speaker 2>he would not tell what was wrong with him, and

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<v Speaker 2>he kind of implied that he was involved in this

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<v Speaker 2>top secret mission involving the CIA, And things got to

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<v Speaker 2>the point where he actually went a wall from Fort

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<v Speaker 2>Lewis and left without permission and then transferred to California

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<v Speaker 2>to spend some time with Yolanda. And once it became

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<v Speaker 2>a parent that he was going to get in trouble,

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<v Speaker 2>he said he was going to return to Fort Lewis

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<v Speaker 2>to sort everything out, but then he just vanished without

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<v Speaker 2>a trace, and a couple weeks later, his parents would

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<v Speaker 2>find his abandoned car next to a motel with a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of his personal items in there, including his dog tags.

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<v Speaker 2>But curiously, the only items that were never accounted for

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<v Speaker 2>were a pair of guns he had recently purchased, so

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<v Speaker 2>there was speculation that he might have died by suicide

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<v Speaker 2>and they just never found his body. But Justin has

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<v Speaker 2>been missing for thirty years, and the military has always

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<v Speaker 2>denied that he was ever involved in some sort of

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<v Speaker 2>top secret mission. But because he has never been found,

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<v Speaker 2>his family just isn't sure what really happened to him,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's still a big mystery. So I think that

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<v Speaker 2>would be a good time to compare Justin's story with

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<v Speaker 2>another unsolved mysteries case we recently covered on The Path

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<v Speaker 2>Went Chile, and that's the disappearance of Paul Whipkey. Only

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<v Speaker 2>a few years after enlisting in the Army, Whipkey had

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<v Speaker 2>reached the rank of first lieutenant, and, much like Justin,

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<v Speaker 2>he was stationed at Ford Ort. Driving away from the

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<v Speaker 2>base in July nineteen fifty eight, Whipkey went a wall

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<v Speaker 2>and was eventually declared a deserter. Over a month after

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<v Speaker 2>he went missing, Whipkey's abandoned car was discovered nearly five

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<v Speaker 2>hundred miles away in a desolate, remote section of Death Valley,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Army believed that he suffered some sort of

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<v Speaker 2>mental breakdown before he wandered out into the desert and died. However,

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<v Speaker 2>Whipkey's body was never found, and there was evidence to

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<v Speaker 2>suggest that someone else abandoned his car at that location

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<v Speaker 2>to stage his disappearance. Whipkey's family believed that he may

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<v Speaker 2>have been recruited by the CIA and sent on some

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<v Speaker 2>sort of secret mission, but for security reasons, the government

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<v Speaker 2>cannot reveal the truth about what happened to him. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to say with one hundred percent certainty

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<v Speaker 2>that this is what actually occurred, but I do find

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<v Speaker 2>the scenario to be a lot more plausible in Paul

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<v Speaker 2>Whipkey's case than Justin Burgwinkle's. Prior to his disappearance, Whipkey

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<v Speaker 2>had a pretty distinguished career in the army and was

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<v Speaker 2>a decent candidate for an important secret mission. But by comparison,

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<v Speaker 2>Justin Bergwinkle seemed like an average soldier at BET.

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<v Speaker 3>That's where this case is really interesting to me, is

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<v Speaker 3>because there is this conspiracy theory that was justin part

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<v Speaker 3>of a secret mission. But with Burwinkle, you saw, you

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<v Speaker 3>see this person who's struggling, right, that he was demoted,

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<v Speaker 3>that he made poor decisions, That yes he had the

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<v Speaker 3>ambition and yes he probably had the talent to succeed

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<v Speaker 3>in the military. But because of poor decisions. He failed

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<v Speaker 3>in that kind of goal, and so to say that

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<v Speaker 3>he'd be the person that they would chase down for

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<v Speaker 3>a secret mission, it just doesn't line up. But for

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<v Speaker 3>Paul Whipkey it did. He was someone who had a

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<v Speaker 3>career in the military, he was a distinguished serviceman, and

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<v Speaker 3>it made sense except for the fact that he was sick.

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<v Speaker 3>If you remember in that case, he was sick from

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<v Speaker 3>the radiation poisoning. So would they pick a sick individual

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<v Speaker 3>to go on a secret mission either, possibly, But for

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<v Speaker 3>Justin it just doesn't seem to fit here.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because Justine, his major downfall was the shoplifting incident,

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<v Speaker 2>like it was as only in fraction, But when you're

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<v Speaker 2>in the military, that's one of those things that's used

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<v Speaker 2>as a huge mark against you because it shows you

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<v Speaker 2>have poor impulse control and you possibly cannot be trusted.

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<v Speaker 2>So even if you just make this one offense, it

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<v Speaker 2>could prevent you from being promoted to anything like an

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<v Speaker 2>army ranger or like a top secret spy. And even

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<v Speaker 2>though he was pretty good at language skills he knew

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<v Speaker 2>some Korean, he really didn't have anything that made him

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<v Speaker 2>stand out and seem like a candidate that they would

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<v Speaker 2>want to recruit to go on some sort of top

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<v Speaker 2>secret mission.

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<v Speaker 1>It reminds me of that pivotal point in the Maa

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<v Speaker 1>Murray story when we see Maura leave West Point after

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<v Speaker 1>the shoplifting incident. It was obviously serious enough that we

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<v Speaker 1>saw her enroll in another university because she didn't want

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<v Speaker 1>to stay and I guess pay the price for what

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<v Speaker 1>would be considered to be a serious offense because integrity

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<v Speaker 1>is considered incredibly important within the military. And it's not

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<v Speaker 1>to say that she didn't have integrity. I think obviously

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<v Speaker 1>it was a cry for help and she didn't want

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<v Speaker 1>to be there. And it's interesting with Bergwinkle because we

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<v Speaker 1>do see, like Ashley said, he's got that ambition and

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<v Speaker 1>he's got that ability, but he doesn't seem to have

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<v Speaker 1>the fortitude to be able to buckle down and carry

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<v Speaker 1>it out and to be able to control his impulses

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<v Speaker 1>for things like shoplifting. So I just don't see an

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<v Speaker 1>organization like the CIA or any secret organization tapping him

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<v Speaker 1>to be somebody to be included in one of those missions.

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<v Speaker 1>It just doesn't seem to be an alignment. Whereas we

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<v Speaker 1>talked about in part one with Whipkey. It really does

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<v Speaker 1>seem to line up, But there was also the possibility

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<v Speaker 1>that maybe he was taking part in some kind of

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<v Speaker 1>experimental medical treatment and then he died while he was

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<v Speaker 1>being treated. In Whipkey's case, we mentioned in our last

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<v Speaker 1>episode that Justin was pretty skilled at language training, but

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<v Speaker 1>completely derailed his career when he was caught shoplifting in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety one. This incident led to him being kicked

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<v Speaker 1>out of the Defense Language Institute and he would be

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<v Speaker 1>reassigned to work as a culinary specialist. I don't get

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<v Speaker 1>the impression that he possessed any other special skills which

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<v Speaker 1>would have led him to be recruited for a clandestine operation.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, it sounds like Justin's work ethic declined after

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<v Speaker 1>he was kicked out of the language Institute. So I

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<v Speaker 1>don't see the CIA or any government agency gravitating towards

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<v Speaker 1>a twenty one year old cook with no special skills

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<v Speaker 1>or experience. Now, another parallel between Justin's case and the

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<v Speaker 1>disappearance of Paul Wikei is that Wiki had also been

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<v Speaker 1>displaying erratic behavior before he went missing. But there's actually

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<v Speaker 1>an explanation for that. The previous year, Wikey had been

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<v Speaker 1>assigned to work on some nuclear weapons testing and was

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<v Speaker 1>likely exposed to radioactive fallout, which caused a great strain

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<v Speaker 1>on his physical and mental health. So it's possible that

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<v Speaker 1>Wiki really did wander off into the desert and die,

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<v Speaker 1>But the Army still did a lot of shady things

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<v Speaker 1>to cover up his disappearance to avoid admitting their own

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<v Speaker 1>culpability in what happened to him. By comparison, I see

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<v Speaker 1>no indication that the Army did anything to cover up

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<v Speaker 1>Justin's disappearance, and it sounds like he went a wall

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<v Speaker 1>and vanished completely on his own accord.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you guys think it's possible that we talked about

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<v Speaker 3>this a little bit on episode one, but that Justin's

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<v Speaker 3>mental health also was fading and failing because of the

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<v Speaker 3>reality of his military career, because his whole life he

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<v Speaker 3>had kind of had this dream where he's chasing this

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<v Speaker 3>ambition in a goal of achieving, and yet he seems

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<v Speaker 3>to continue to be struggling to meet any of those

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<v Speaker 3>challenges he sets for himself. He's kind of been demoted

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<v Speaker 3>without a clear path back towards a successful military career,

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<v Speaker 3>and the way he had envisioned it. That is also

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<v Speaker 3>a very important role in the military, so not minimizing that,

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<v Speaker 3>but he had his eyes set on something much bigger

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<v Speaker 3>and feeling that that wasn't possible. Is it a chance

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<v Speaker 3>that he did take his own life. But in that case,

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<v Speaker 3>what do you think would have happened to his body?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, if he went out into a remote area

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<v Speaker 2>to do it, I guess I could see it not

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<v Speaker 2>being found for thirty years. But I do think he

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<v Speaker 2>probably was struggling mentally because he may have been wondering, like,

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<v Speaker 2>what am I going to do with the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>my life? Because at this point he was probably only

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<v Speaker 2>going to be in the Army for a couple more

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<v Speaker 2>years doing culinary duty and then he would probably be discharged.

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<v Speaker 2>But he probably thought, if I'm not going to be

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<v Speaker 2>an army ranger, if I'm not going to continue serving

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<v Speaker 2>my country, what am I going to do? He was

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<v Speaker 2>almost like he was having a midlife crisis, even though

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<v Speaker 2>he was still in his early twenties. So I could

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<v Speaker 2>see someone like that, if they feel they have no future,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe electing suicide to be the option, but still planting

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<v Speaker 2>the seeds so that your family and friends believe that

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<v Speaker 2>you might be dying for your country because you're on

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<v Speaker 2>some sort of top secret mission.

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder if he felt like the walls were closing

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<v Speaker 1>in as well, because it seems like he fabricated a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of details about his life in the military. And

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<v Speaker 1>then if he's discharged and it becomes blatantly obvious that

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<v Speaker 1>his role wasn't what he said that it was. They

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<v Speaker 1>aren't knocking on his door having him participate in these

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<v Speaker 1>secret missions. He isn't as important in his role as

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<v Speaker 1>he led those close to him to believe that he was.

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<v Speaker 3>I was actually just about to ask that, like, to

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<v Speaker 3>what extent did his family know about the problems he

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<v Speaker 3>was having in the military, To what extent had they

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<v Speaker 3>been given a different story or were they kind of,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, being fed information that wasn't accurate. Because, like

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<v Speaker 3>you said, Jules, if those walls are coming in, if

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<v Speaker 3>he's caught in one of his lives, does he start

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<v Speaker 3>to feel like either he's a disappointment to his family

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<v Speaker 3>or that he's going to be quote found out and

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<v Speaker 3>therefore starts to have that kind of stress and anxiety

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<v Speaker 3>about what am I going to do to get myself

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<v Speaker 3>out of this?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? I know that his parents and his brothers lived

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<v Speaker 2>on the other side of the country in Massachusetts, so

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know how often they would have seen him

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<v Speaker 2>face to face. So they're pretty much like just going

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<v Speaker 2>by what he told them, just saying that I'm doing

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<v Speaker 2>him work on being recruited for some sort of top

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<v Speaker 2>secret mission. But if he gets a discharge a few

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<v Speaker 2>years later and then the Army doesn't come calling back

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<v Speaker 2>and he's not being sent on any more missions, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sure it's going to look suspicious and make them realize

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<v Speaker 2>that he probably wasn't telling the truth before. So there's

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<v Speaker 2>another case which was featured on Unsolved Mysteries around the

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<v Speaker 2>same time period which also has similarities to this one,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's the death of SPC. Chad Langford, who was

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<v Speaker 2>shot to death while performing his patrol as a military

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<v Speaker 2>policeman at Alabama's Redstone Arsenal in March of nineteen ninety two.

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<v Speaker 2>I covered this one in episode number three thirty four

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<v Speaker 2>of The Trail Went Cold But Long story short. Even

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<v Speaker 2>though the circumstances of how Langford's body was found were

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<v Speaker 2>very strange, the military still ruled his death to be

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<v Speaker 2>a suicide and concluded that he shot himself in a

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<v Speaker 2>very unusual fashion in order to make his death look

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<v Speaker 2>like a homicide. However, Chad's loved ones believed he was

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<v Speaker 2>the victim of foul play because he had told them

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<v Speaker 2>he was doing secret undercover work for the Army to investigate.

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<v Speaker 2>The Army denied that any undercover operations were taking place,

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<v Speaker 2>so Langford could have been fabricating these stories in order

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<v Speaker 2>to make his family believe he was more important than

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<v Speaker 2>he really was, and stage thinks to make it look

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<v Speaker 2>like he was killed in the line of duty. Indeed,

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<v Speaker 2>it is possible that Chad Langford and Justin Bergwinkle were

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<v Speaker 2>both suffering from psychological problems and were secretly ashamed about

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<v Speaker 2>their lack of advancement in their military careers, so they

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to end their lives in a manner which made

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<v Speaker 2>it look like they died heroic deaths. Of course, one

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<v Speaker 2>of the key differences is that, unlike Justin, I do

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<v Speaker 2>not believe that Chad had any serious disciplinary infractions on

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<v Speaker 2>his record which would have harmed his career. And most importantly,

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<v Speaker 2>Justin's body has never been found, so we still can't

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<v Speaker 2>even be certain if he went through the act of suicide. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>And what's hard too is if his family's not close,

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<v Speaker 3>depending on how much communication he had with them, we

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<v Speaker 3>really don't know if he was involved in anything else

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<v Speaker 3>nefarious that could have actually led to him being hurt

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<v Speaker 3>by somebody either. So, you know, you have this kid

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<v Speaker 3>who went out there. He's by himself, he's trying to

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<v Speaker 3>create a life, but it's not going the way he wants.

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<v Speaker 3>And if he's struggling with mental health, there is a

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<v Speaker 3>potential that he, you know, reached out to other vices gambling,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, sex workers, drugs, and so if any of

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<v Speaker 3>that was something that he was starting to dabble in

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<v Speaker 3>or get involved, and you have no idea what kind

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<v Speaker 3>of person he could have come across.

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<v Speaker 1>If he's having mental health issues, some kind of delusions

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<v Speaker 1>of grandeur, it sounds like what he's telling his family

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<v Speaker 1>isn't in alignment with what's actually happening, and that he

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<v Speaker 1>wants to have this James Bond type of persona or

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<v Speaker 1>life that he's you know, somebody that's desired by the CIA,

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<v Speaker 1>And so if he can't make that persona happen in

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<v Speaker 1>the military, then I think you're absolutely right Ash. Maybe

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<v Speaker 1>he reached out to or somebody reached out to him

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<v Speaker 1>from some criminal organization and maybe he was involved in traffic,

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<v Speaker 1>weapons trafficking, or drug dealing or something to that effect.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you mentioned in our last episode that when he

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<v Speaker 2>would visit his girlfriend, Yolanda, he would often take off

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<v Speaker 2>from her place for long periods of time and never

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<v Speaker 2>explain where he was going. And even though he implied

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<v Speaker 2>that he was doing some sort of top secret work

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<v Speaker 2>with the military, it's very possible that he was conducting

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<v Speaker 2>some criminal activity during the time periods he was gone.

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<v Speaker 3>Either that or having an affair as well. We talked

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<v Speaker 3>about that potential. So if he was having let's say

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<v Speaker 3>another relationship that was secret, then that could also lead

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<v Speaker 3>to another lover being angry with him or something to

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<v Speaker 3>that extent as well.

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<v Speaker 1>And it would be nice to know more about who

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<v Speaker 1>he had access to, like his friend group or acquaintances,

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<v Speaker 1>to know that if there was anybody who was in

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<v Speaker 1>reach that was involved in criminal activities, because it's not

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<v Speaker 1>like you can just go up to an area where

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<v Speaker 1>there's known criminals and be like, hey, I want to join.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he was visiting his girlfriend in Santa Clara

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<v Speaker 2>and before he moved to Washington State. He would often

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<v Speaker 2>be at Ford Ord, which I think was a couple

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<v Speaker 2>miles outside of Santa Clara. So he very well could

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<v Speaker 2>have had a friends group from or some criminal associates

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<v Speaker 2>that he met during his time at Ford Ord.

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<v Speaker 1>And I've watched documentaries too on like criminal organizations, especially

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<v Speaker 1>like sex trafficking type things where they're like pimping out

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<v Speaker 1>girls on base on several different military bases. And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not saying this happens on all bases, but military members

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<v Speaker 1>are just like regular people, and it's just like police

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<v Speaker 1>officers are, and a lot of them will conduct legal activities.

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<v Speaker 1>And especially when you look at some of these bases,

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<v Speaker 1>they're as big as like a large town, like they're huge,

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<v Speaker 1>So of course you're going to have some bad apples

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<v Speaker 1>that are going to be involved in criminal activity. And

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<v Speaker 1>maybe the connections that he made were people on the base. However,

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<v Speaker 1>we definitely think there's a strong to be made that

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<v Speaker 1>Justin was having serious delusions of grandeur. I mean, I've

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<v Speaker 1>never served in the military or been assigned to do

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00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:10.240
<v Speaker 1>top secret work for them, but I have to think

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<v Speaker 1>that if I was on a date with my spouse,

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<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't just be casually mentioning, Oh, by the way,

308
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<v Speaker 1>I'm involved in some sort of secret mission, but I

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<v Speaker 1>can't tell you much about it. I'm sure that someone

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<v Speaker 1>who's trained in this sort of work would know to

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<v Speaker 1>keep their mouth shut and not say anything like that

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<v Speaker 1>at all in front of a civilian. The bit where

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<v Speaker 1>Justin was carrying around this mysterious looking briefcase in front

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<v Speaker 1>of Yolanda and pulling out small pieces of paper to

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00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.879
<v Speaker 1>tear up really comes across as something that he did

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00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:40.960
<v Speaker 1>for show in order to make her think that he

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00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.320
<v Speaker 1>was working on something important. When he asked Yolanda to

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<v Speaker 1>turn around while he opened it, it's like he was

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<v Speaker 1>practically inviting her to take a quick peek. I have

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00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:52.480
<v Speaker 1>to assume that if you're working on an important, top

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<v Speaker 1>secret operation and have a briefcase containing classified information, you're

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<v Speaker 1>not going to take it to your girlfriend's apartment on

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<v Speaker 1>a two furlough, and if you do, you're a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>terrible operative and likely never would have made it past

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00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:07.799
<v Speaker 1>the screening process to begin with.

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<v Speaker 3>It's really true. I mean, he's showing a level of

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<v Speaker 3>and I mean I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all,

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00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:17.359
<v Speaker 3>but of immaturity, that he's really striving to be viewed

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00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:20.279
<v Speaker 3>as someone with grandeur and almost like an he has

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<v Speaker 3>an insecurity about him that he's carrying himself with. If

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<v Speaker 3>you were tasked, I don't know if you wouldn't share

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<v Speaker 3>with your partner. I mean, I know you're not supposed to,

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<v Speaker 3>but there are marriages and relationships where I think you

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00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:34.319
<v Speaker 3>share it more than you should. But I don't think

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<v Speaker 3>that you would have the props and the kind of

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00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:42.160
<v Speaker 3>irresponsible behavior to coincide with that information. So when he

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00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.039
<v Speaker 3>is toting around this little briefcase and he's ripping up

338
00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:48.240
<v Speaker 3>little pieces of paper, I mean, if that's classified details,

339
00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:50.960
<v Speaker 3>you don't just sit there and rip it up by

340
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<v Speaker 3>hand and you know, hope that no one can put

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<v Speaker 3>it back together. And you don't just walk around with

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00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:58.880
<v Speaker 3>the briefcase full of top secret information. So it does

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<v Speaker 3>seem like he's almost acting a character or a part

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<v Speaker 3>because of this feeling of that he just doesn't feel

345
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<v Speaker 3>fulfilled in what he's doing, and he needs to be loved,

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00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:11.119
<v Speaker 3>he needs to be respected and appreciated, and because he

347
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:15.000
<v Speaker 3>doesn't feel like he's fulfilling that or doing something that

348
00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:17.839
<v Speaker 3>allows him to get the attention he wants. He's starting

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00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:20.359
<v Speaker 3>to fabricate these things, and honestly, if he's struggling with

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00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.680
<v Speaker 3>mental health, he might believe it. We've seen cases like

351
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:28.119
<v Speaker 3>that as well, where the person gets into these lies,

352
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:31.640
<v Speaker 3>but it's sad because they actually start to become part

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<v Speaker 3>of that lie and believe it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because Yolana would talk about there were some episodes

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<v Speaker 2>where Justin would get very emotional and appear to have

356
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<v Speaker 2>some sort of breakdown, And even though he was giving

357
00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:44.359
<v Speaker 2>the oppression that it was tied to his top secret

358
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.519
<v Speaker 2>mission or something and he was under a lot of stress,

359
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:48.960
<v Speaker 2>it really looks like he was just having mental health

360
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<v Speaker 2>episodes and maybe just the weight of what he was

361
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<v Speaker 2>doing was just kind of overwhelming him because he knew

362
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<v Speaker 2>he was living a lie and may have even got

363
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<v Speaker 2>to the point where he convinced himself that it was true. Now,

364
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:03.240
<v Speaker 2>the most absurd part of this story is undoubtedly the

365
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:06.839
<v Speaker 2>phone call Yolanda received from the unidentified man who asked

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<v Speaker 2>her to tell Justin quote the missions off. Once again,

367
00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:13.640
<v Speaker 2>We've never worked on any covert, secret missions for the military,

368
00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:16.160
<v Speaker 2>but if your superiors need to get in touch with you,

369
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<v Speaker 2>I seriously doubt they're going to leave a message with

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<v Speaker 2>your girlfriend to say that your mission has been canceled.

371
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:24.279
<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand, since Justin was out with

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<v Speaker 2>friends when this incident took place, who actually made the

373
00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:30.279
<v Speaker 2>phone call? Sure Justin could have made the call himself

374
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<v Speaker 2>in order to enhance this fantasy he was selling to Yolanda,

375
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<v Speaker 2>But wouldn't she have recognized his voice well? Interestingly enough,

376
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<v Speaker 2>the Sacramento b article that was written about this case

377
00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:43.880
<v Speaker 2>in November of nineteen ninety three contained some comments from

378
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.279
<v Speaker 2>a soldier named John Aaron Barnett, who worked on kitchen

379
00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:51.480
<v Speaker 2>duty alongside Justin at Ford Ord. According to Barnett, there

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<v Speaker 2>was one incident where Justin asked him to call Yolanda

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<v Speaker 2>and tell her that Justin was on some sort of

382
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<v Speaker 2>secret mission and was unable to see her. Barnett said

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<v Speaker 2>that Justin sounded serious when he made this request. He

384
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.920
<v Speaker 2>thought it was nothing more than a joke at the time. Now,

385
00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:08.559
<v Speaker 2>it's not entirely clear to me if Barnett was referring

386
00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:12.039
<v Speaker 2>to the missions off call or an entirely different phone

387
00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:15.440
<v Speaker 2>call Yolanda received at a different time, But either way,

388
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.279
<v Speaker 2>this shows that Justin had a history of getting other

389
00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:20.839
<v Speaker 2>people to make phone calls to her on his behalf

390
00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:24.319
<v Speaker 2>about secret missions. Since Justin was out with friends in

391
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.480
<v Speaker 2>the night, yelan to receive the missions off call, I

392
00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:30.119
<v Speaker 2>find it totally plausible that he could have convinced one

393
00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:32.559
<v Speaker 2>of them to phone her. Sure, no one has ever

394
00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:35.200
<v Speaker 2>come forward to admit to doing this, but since Justin

395
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:37.960
<v Speaker 2>eventually went missing, the caller may have feared they would

396
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:40.440
<v Speaker 2>end up under a cloud of suspicion and elected to

397
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:44.440
<v Speaker 2>stay silent. However, I suppose an alternate possibility is that

398
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.720
<v Speaker 2>if Justin was involved in something illegal which was unrelated

399
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.440
<v Speaker 2>to the military, somebody he was working with could have

400
00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:53.480
<v Speaker 2>left that message, and the missions off was some sort

401
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.160
<v Speaker 2>of code. After all, Yolanda said that Justin got really

402
00:20:57.160 --> 00:20:59.519
<v Speaker 2>distressed when he returned to the apartment and she gave

403
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.799
<v Speaker 2>him the me so if he orchestrated the phone call himself,

404
00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:05.039
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like he was going all out to sell

405
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.960
<v Speaker 2>the whole situation to her. We also have to remember

406
00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:11.279
<v Speaker 2>that Yolanda later found Justin sobbing at her apartment, so

407
00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.279
<v Speaker 2>he's either really upset about something or suffering from some

408
00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:15.759
<v Speaker 2>serious mental health issues.

409
00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:18.680
<v Speaker 3>Here's the other thing I want to know is why

410
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.039
<v Speaker 3>weren't there communications with his family if there really was

411
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.960
<v Speaker 3>some kind of secret mission more so than you know,

412
00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:28.920
<v Speaker 3>focused on his girlfriend. I get he's with his girlfriend

413
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:31.960
<v Speaker 3>and hanging around her, but his calls to her and

414
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:35.960
<v Speaker 3>the way that you see him interacting with her, leaving frequently,

415
00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.240
<v Speaker 3>all this it really does make me feel like there

416
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:42.400
<v Speaker 3>could have been someone else and he needed a justification

417
00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:47.920
<v Speaker 3>for sporadic, infrequent, kind of unpredictable behavior from him. The

418
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.519
<v Speaker 3>instability that she was starting to see from him because

419
00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:54.839
<v Speaker 3>he's trying to balance another relationship. Another relationship could make

420
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:58.119
<v Speaker 3>a man break down and cry as well if it

421
00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:01.319
<v Speaker 3>wasn't working out, if he had gotten dumped, if the

422
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:03.640
<v Speaker 3>person he was dating was married and said I'm staying

423
00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:06.559
<v Speaker 3>with my husband. You know, all these things could lead

424
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:10.599
<v Speaker 3>to him kind of having reactions that she sees a

425
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.440
<v Speaker 3>breakdown on one side, but then he's also in this

426
00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:16.680
<v Speaker 3>top secret mission on the other. I think it's more

427
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.400
<v Speaker 3>to allow him flexibility, so he's not tied to her

428
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:20.960
<v Speaker 3>as often. Does that make any sense?

429
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:23.960
<v Speaker 1>I agree, that's what I think too. Like when we

430
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.119
<v Speaker 1>talked about it in part one, it's like the relationship

431
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.240
<v Speaker 1>angle makes more sense than he's actually involved in some

432
00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:35.000
<v Speaker 1>clandestine mission and telling his girlfriend that that's what he's doing.

433
00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:37.440
<v Speaker 1>It's just like, you're not gonna do that if you're

434
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.599
<v Speaker 1>actually an operative involved in secret missions, You're gonna make

435
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:43.759
<v Speaker 1>up some other excuse. So it to me as well,

436
00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:46.799
<v Speaker 1>it seems like the walls might have been closing in

437
00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:48.839
<v Speaker 1>as far as all the lies that he was telling,

438
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.720
<v Speaker 1>not only about his profession but within his relationship. And

439
00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:55.799
<v Speaker 1>there's this infidelity, and who knows what if there is

440
00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:59.359
<v Speaker 1>another woman what he's telling her. Is she saying, Hey,

441
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:02.359
<v Speaker 1>if you don't leave Yolanda, I'm gonna tell her about it.

442
00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:05.519
<v Speaker 1>We don't know. There's a million different potential scenarios that

443
00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:07.680
<v Speaker 1>could have been playing out that could have led to

444
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:11.440
<v Speaker 1>him feeling like he needed to unburden himself and cry.

445
00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:16.839
<v Speaker 1>But this just adds more fuel to the buyer of

446
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:21.559
<v Speaker 1>this disappointment of not reaching his full potential in the military.

447
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:25.599
<v Speaker 1>And then if he feels like he may be destroying

448
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:28.680
<v Speaker 1>his relationship and he just doesn't have that impulse control

449
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:32.759
<v Speaker 1>and that ability to stop doing these destructive acts, then

450
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:35.200
<v Speaker 1>that could make you feel pretty terrible and could lead

451
00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:36.319
<v Speaker 1>to mental health issues.

452
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:39.640
<v Speaker 3>What if the person making the phone call that the

453
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.319
<v Speaker 3>quote missions off is one of his friends or someone

454
00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:45.799
<v Speaker 3>else that they hang out with. Right, And let's say

455
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:48.319
<v Speaker 3>he's seen another girl, or he's with a girl who's

456
00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:50.640
<v Speaker 3>married to another man they all hang out with and

457
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.720
<v Speaker 3>when he gets those calls that the mission's off, it's

458
00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.799
<v Speaker 3>codeword for like she showed up with her significant other

459
00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:00.400
<v Speaker 3>and hey, man, like I saw her again with him,

460
00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:03.039
<v Speaker 3>you know, or your chances with her are off? Like

461
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:06.799
<v Speaker 3>what if that's code for something where he was actually

462
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:08.759
<v Speaker 3>distraught because he was like, dang it when he got

463
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.839
<v Speaker 3>that phone call from a friend saying the missions off

464
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.319
<v Speaker 3>because it was top sicker for something social and not criminal.

465
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that person could be an intermediary who could be

466
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:22.240
<v Speaker 1>a mutual friend who broke the meetings between him and

467
00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:25.519
<v Speaker 1>his girlfriend so that it gives this layer of protection

468
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:31.400
<v Speaker 1>so that Yolanda isn't privy to the details. When Yolanda

469
00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:34.480
<v Speaker 1>kept pressing Justin about what he was involved in, he

470
00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:37.480
<v Speaker 1>told her to watch the movie White Sands. So I'll

471
00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:40.920
<v Speaker 1>share a few details about the film's plot. Williem Dafoe

472
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:44.279
<v Speaker 1>plays a new Mexico deputy sheriff who becomes embroiled in

473
00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:47.880
<v Speaker 1>an intriguing mystery when a man carrying a briefcase containing

474
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:50.480
<v Speaker 1>five hundred thousand dollars is found shot to death in

475
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:53.960
<v Speaker 1>the desert in an apparent suicide. A piece of paper

476
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.559
<v Speaker 1>containing a phone number is found in the victim's stomach,

477
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:00.240
<v Speaker 1>so Defoe decides to launch his own independent under cover

478
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:03.559
<v Speaker 1>operation in which he calls the number and impersonates the

479
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.759
<v Speaker 1>dead man. After going to a pre arranged meeting, the

480
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:10.039
<v Speaker 1>briefcase full of money has stolen from him. Defoe soon

481
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.200
<v Speaker 1>learns that the victim was an undercover FBI agent and

482
00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:17.880
<v Speaker 1>he's stumbled upon a complicated operation involving an international armstealer

483
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:21.000
<v Speaker 1>played by Mickey Rourke, who is planning to use the

484
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.519
<v Speaker 1>five hundred thousand to arm some freedom fighters in South America.

485
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.599
<v Speaker 1>It's eventually released that Rorke's character is actually a CIA

486
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:32.279
<v Speaker 1>agent who orchestrates the sale of weapons to America's enemies

487
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:36.279
<v Speaker 1>to ensure the survival of the military industrial complex. White

488
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:39.079
<v Speaker 1>Sands originally came out in theaters in April of nineteen

489
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:42.599
<v Speaker 1>ninety two, just over a year before Justin went missing,

490
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:45.480
<v Speaker 1>and in retrospect, it's kind of a weird film for

491
00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:48.720
<v Speaker 1>Justin to reference, since it got mixed reviews and didn't

492
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:51.200
<v Speaker 1>make much of a dent to the box office. In

493
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:54.720
<v Speaker 1>Robin's original Trail wunk Hold episode, he even said that

494
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:57.319
<v Speaker 1>if it wasn't for this case, he probably would have

495
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:00.440
<v Speaker 1>forgotten that the movie even existed. But the plot is

496
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.319
<v Speaker 1>based around a briefcase full of money, and Justin was

497
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:06.960
<v Speaker 1>often seen carrying a briefcase, so if you saw white fans,

498
00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:09.400
<v Speaker 1>maybe he was using it as an inspiration for an

499
00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:13.599
<v Speaker 1>elaborate fantasy. Curiously, even though it involves the FBI and

500
00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:16.440
<v Speaker 1>the CIA, the Army's not part of the film at all.

501
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:19.359
<v Speaker 1>But I think you could draw some parallels between Willem

502
00:26:19.400 --> 00:26:22.720
<v Speaker 1>Dafoe's character and Justin. At the start of the film,

503
00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:25.599
<v Speaker 1>Defoe's pretty bored with his life, as being a deputy

504
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:28.240
<v Speaker 1>sheriff in rural New Mexico is not providing him with

505
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:31.359
<v Speaker 1>much excitement, so this is why he takes the initiative

506
00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:34.839
<v Speaker 1>to impersonate the dead FBI agent and eventually finds himself

507
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:38.359
<v Speaker 1>in way over his head. Perhaps Justin felt the same

508
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:41.319
<v Speaker 1>way about his own life, which is why he constructed

509
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:45.400
<v Speaker 1>a fantasy about becoming involved in a government operation. I

510
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.279
<v Speaker 1>know that Justin specifically told his parents to pay attention

511
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:52.200
<v Speaker 1>to Mickey Rourke's CIA agent arms dealer character, but I

512
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:55.279
<v Speaker 1>seriously doubt that the CIA is going to recruit a

513
00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:58.480
<v Speaker 1>twenty one year old soldier with an average service record

514
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.319
<v Speaker 1>for a secret operation involving international arms dealing.

515
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:06.400
<v Speaker 3>What is super interesting is that he tells him pay

516
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:09.680
<v Speaker 3>attention to Mickey Rorick's character. But like you said, Jules,

517
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:13.759
<v Speaker 3>he's actually modeling Defoe's character, it seems like, and so

518
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:17.359
<v Speaker 3>it's almost kind of cryptic of like, oh, don't look

519
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:20.240
<v Speaker 3>at this guy who's kind of doing exactly what I'm doing.

520
00:27:20.599 --> 00:27:23.359
<v Speaker 3>Make sure you pay attention to the big dog in

521
00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:26.880
<v Speaker 3>this movie and this really important mission he's on, because

522
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:29.440
<v Speaker 3>that's me, you know. And he really is kind of

523
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:33.279
<v Speaker 3>using White Sands as a script, but he's putting himself

524
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:36.480
<v Speaker 3>into the character that he wishes he was while he

525
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:39.839
<v Speaker 3>actually saw the inspiration and felt connected to the film

526
00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:41.960
<v Speaker 3>because he identifies with Defoe's character.

527
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:44.200
<v Speaker 2>It is kind of funny because I only saw this

528
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.720
<v Speaker 2>film like a couple of years ago for the first time,

529
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:48.759
<v Speaker 2>and while I was watching it, all I could think

530
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:51.400
<v Speaker 2>about was justin Bergwinkle, because, like I said, that's the

531
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:54.359
<v Speaker 2>only reason I know this movie exists, because of this case,

532
00:27:54.680 --> 00:27:56.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm seeing how his character is like living this

533
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.119
<v Speaker 2>boring life and he wants to get himself involved in

534
00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:02.440
<v Speaker 2>this exciting misty even though he solely unqualified for it,

535
00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:04.440
<v Speaker 2>and I'm just seeing it. I'm like, yeah, Justin, it's

536
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:07.200
<v Speaker 2>almost a wish fulfillment fantasy for him, and he kind

537
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.440
<v Speaker 2>of wishes he was exactly like Defoe's character in real life.

538
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:13.680
<v Speaker 2>All that being said, it's worth mentioning that there were

539
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:17.119
<v Speaker 2>a few incidents from this time period where military weapons

540
00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.880
<v Speaker 2>from ford Ord and Fort Lewis wound up in the

541
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:22.920
<v Speaker 2>hands of street gangs. In fact, in May of nineteen

542
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:26.039
<v Speaker 2>ninety two, the newspapers reported that members of both the

543
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Crips and the Bloods, two rival gangs from Los Angeles,

544
00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:32.799
<v Speaker 2>had arranged deals in which personnel from ford Ord would

545
00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:35.839
<v Speaker 2>provide them with a surplus of hand grenades and handheld

546
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:39.839
<v Speaker 2>rocket launchers in exchange for drugs. Now, there's no evidence

547
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.480
<v Speaker 2>to indicate that Justin was involved in anything like this,

548
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:46.440
<v Speaker 2>But if these so called secret missions Justin was referring

549
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:49.799
<v Speaker 2>to were not just paranoid delusions, maybe they were a

550
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:53.400
<v Speaker 2>cover for illegal activity involving weapons or drugs or others.

551
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Stolen goods. One interesting detail from the Sacramento b article

552
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:00.480
<v Speaker 2>which I did not know before, is that one of

553
00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:03.880
<v Speaker 2>Justin's former army friends claimed that Justin often liked to

554
00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:06.880
<v Speaker 2>flash around a military id which had his photo on

555
00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:11.079
<v Speaker 2>it but someone else's name. These IDs were apparently quite

556
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:14.279
<v Speaker 2>difficult to counterfeit and likely would have landed Justin in

557
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:17.279
<v Speaker 2>serious hot water if he got caught. So was there

558
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:20.480
<v Speaker 2>a reason he was carrying around something like that while

559
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.400
<v Speaker 2>he was stationed at Fort ord Yolanda said that Justin

560
00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:26.279
<v Speaker 2>would sometimes abruptly end their dates and say that he

561
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:28.759
<v Speaker 2>needed to go back to Monterey, But he would do

562
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.720
<v Speaker 2>this completely out of the blue, without receiving any phone

563
00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:35.000
<v Speaker 2>calls or messages. And after he went a while from

564
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:38.240
<v Speaker 2>Fort Lewis, Justin spent a week at Yolanda's apartment, and

565
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:41.400
<v Speaker 2>on several occasions he left on what he claimed were

566
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.240
<v Speaker 2>important trips to Monterey before he disappeared. I mean, for

567
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:47.720
<v Speaker 2>all we know, Justin could have just been staging the

568
00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:50.519
<v Speaker 2>whole thing as part of his fantasy. But where exactly

569
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:52.519
<v Speaker 2>did he go when he left on all these trips?

570
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Did he just go off and do his own thing

571
00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:58.240
<v Speaker 2>for several hours before he returned, could he be could

572
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:00.400
<v Speaker 2>he have been involved in something else which had nothing

573
00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:03.839
<v Speaker 2>to do with a secret mission. Well, on our last episode,

574
00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:06.599
<v Speaker 2>we made mention of some comments from the Unsolved Mysteries

575
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:10.480
<v Speaker 2>message board by a poster known as MPI Guy, who

576
00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:12.759
<v Speaker 2>said there were rumors that Justin might have had another

577
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:15.799
<v Speaker 2>girlfriend in the town of Seaside and she got involved

578
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:19.519
<v Speaker 2>in a bad situation he was trying to rescue her from. Again,

579
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:21.920
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like this was nothing more than rumor, and

580
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.680
<v Speaker 2>we have no idea if this other girlfriend actually existed,

581
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:28.240
<v Speaker 2>But since Seaside is near Moterey, that could provide an

582
00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:30.880
<v Speaker 2>alternate explanation for all of Justin's trips.

583
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:34.720
<v Speaker 3>Okay, now we've talked about this a lot. But when

584
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.519
<v Speaker 3>you talk about the idea that this other girlfriend, if

585
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.599
<v Speaker 3>she existed, could have been involved in quote something bad, right,

586
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:44.039
<v Speaker 3>that he was trying to rescue her from. When you

587
00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:47.319
<v Speaker 3>think about people who are having affairs, or you think

588
00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:51.319
<v Speaker 3>about people who are you taking advantage of someone who

589
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:54.640
<v Speaker 3>might be going through their own crisis and manipulate them,

590
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:59.440
<v Speaker 3>you'll hear people use claims of domestic violence or you know,

591
00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:02.480
<v Speaker 3>I'm married this horrible man. He's awful. He doesn't treat

592
00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:05.920
<v Speaker 3>me right, and it's really manipulating someone who they view

593
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:12.000
<v Speaker 3>as weak and easy to control, and they'll make accusations

594
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:14.839
<v Speaker 3>against their partner that's not even true. To try to

595
00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:18.079
<v Speaker 3>lure somebody to do things for them, right, whether it's

596
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:20.799
<v Speaker 3>buy things for them or do their bidding for them

597
00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:23.279
<v Speaker 3>or things like that. And so if she was getting

598
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:26.480
<v Speaker 3>calls that she was desperate in this bad situation, I

599
00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.799
<v Speaker 3>wonder if it's someone who's picking up on his kind

600
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:34.119
<v Speaker 3>of immaturity or easy the way he's influenced pretty easily,

601
00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:37.119
<v Speaker 3>it sounds like, and is trying to actually manipulate him,

602
00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:39.599
<v Speaker 3>and that could have led him into some trouble as well.

603
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.640
<v Speaker 2>So, yeah, that would make sense to me because maybe

604
00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:44.880
<v Speaker 2>in his own mind he's kind of taking on the

605
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.119
<v Speaker 2>role of a hero or something like that, where even

606
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.880
<v Speaker 2>if he can't do anything exciting in the military, he's

607
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:51.839
<v Speaker 2>found this other girl who's in like a lot of

608
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:54.000
<v Speaker 2>trouble and he thinks he can rescue her from maybe

609
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:57.519
<v Speaker 2>some legal problems or domestic violence or something, and that's

610
00:31:57.559 --> 00:31:59.440
<v Speaker 2>why he's making all these trips to see her. But

611
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:02.720
<v Speaker 2>maybe he realizes he's being manipulated or it's not going

612
00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:05.240
<v Speaker 2>as he expected, and this is what causes him to

613
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:06.599
<v Speaker 2>have these mental breakdowns.

614
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:10.160
<v Speaker 1>And what if these secret missions are him like spying

615
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:12.480
<v Speaker 1>on this guy that he thinks is a really bad

616
00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:16.000
<v Speaker 1>guy and up to some kind of nefarious activities in

617
00:32:16.119 --> 00:32:20.039
<v Speaker 1>order to try to rescue this mystery woman from that

618
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:22.440
<v Speaker 1>that could also be in alignment with him having an

619
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:27.119
<v Speaker 1>affair but also doing something that he could, I guess say,

620
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:29.680
<v Speaker 1>and he would be half telling the truth that he

621
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:31.160
<v Speaker 1>was involved in a secret mission.

622
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:34.559
<v Speaker 2>And also, as you recall, he went a wall from

623
00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:37.960
<v Speaker 2>Fort Lewis and Washington to come down to Santa Clara

624
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:40.960
<v Speaker 2>and spend time with Yolanda, and that's when he would

625
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:43.480
<v Speaker 2>make more of these trips to Monterey. And you think

626
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.680
<v Speaker 2>going awall means he's going to land himself in serious troubles.

627
00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:49.440
<v Speaker 2>So what could he be doing to risk his military

628
00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:51.920
<v Speaker 2>career like that? And if he was involved in a

629
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:54.440
<v Speaker 2>relationship with another woman and he thought he was coming

630
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.559
<v Speaker 2>back to California to rescue her for something, that could

631
00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:00.000
<v Speaker 2>provide an explanation why he was willing to just abandon

632
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:00.720
<v Speaker 2>in his post.

633
00:33:01.720 --> 00:33:04.839
<v Speaker 1>It's worth noting that Fort Ord officially closed in nineteen

634
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:08.880
<v Speaker 1>ninety four, less than a year after Justin disappeared, but

635
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:12.079
<v Speaker 1>the original recommendation to close the base had been made

636
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:15.559
<v Speaker 1>years earlier, and the plan was to gradually transfer all

637
00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:18.799
<v Speaker 1>the personnel to Fort Lewis, so Justin was not sent

638
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:21.359
<v Speaker 1>there because of issues with his service record or anything

639
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.880
<v Speaker 1>he might have done so. Obviously, if Justin was involved

640
00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:28.200
<v Speaker 1>in some sort of clandestine operation which required him to

641
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:31.720
<v Speaker 1>keep making trips to Monterey, why would the military transfer

642
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:34.200
<v Speaker 1>him to Washington in the first place rather than keep

643
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:37.640
<v Speaker 1>him close to home. However, I'm sure the transfer was

644
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:41.319
<v Speaker 1>very inconvenient for Justin, since his relationship with Yolanda was

645
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:44.039
<v Speaker 1>getting more serious and he was now being sent to

646
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:47.119
<v Speaker 1>another post located over eight hundred miles away. For all

647
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:49.079
<v Speaker 1>we know, this could have taken a toll on his

648
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:52.720
<v Speaker 1>already fragile mental health and made him even more unhappy

649
00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:55.920
<v Speaker 1>with the state of his military career. Of course, if

650
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.319
<v Speaker 1>the rumors are true and Justin really did have a

651
00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:01.599
<v Speaker 1>second girlfriend in Seaside, then the transfer would have made

652
00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:05.279
<v Speaker 1>things even more inconvenient for him and desperate enough to

653
00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:08.480
<v Speaker 1>go a wall to travel back to California. We still

654
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:11.320
<v Speaker 1>don't know where Justin went when he left Yolanda's apartment

655
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:14.159
<v Speaker 1>on all those secret trips, but we know he made

656
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:16.960
<v Speaker 1>at least one trip to Monterey, since his abandoned car

657
00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:19.639
<v Speaker 1>was found in the parking lot of the Monterey Marina

658
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:23.000
<v Speaker 1>Bay Travelodge. If Justin was the victim of foul play,

659
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.800
<v Speaker 1>I could see someone leaving his car there, but it

660
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.199
<v Speaker 1>seems odd that an outside party would go to the

661
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.519
<v Speaker 1>trouble of placing all of Justin's personal items, including his

662
00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:35.039
<v Speaker 1>wallets and dog tag it is briefcase inside the trunk.

663
00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:38.199
<v Speaker 1>I really get the impression that Justin staged the scene

664
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:41.920
<v Speaker 1>and left the items there himself, particularly when you remember

665
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:45.559
<v Speaker 1>his previous conversation with Yolanda. He said that if his

666
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:48.280
<v Speaker 1>dog tags were ever found, then that would mean that

667
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:51.639
<v Speaker 1>he was dead. Of course, the only items of Justin's

668
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.480
<v Speaker 1>that could not be found were the handguns and ammunition

669
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:57.559
<v Speaker 1>that he'd recently purchased, meaning that he may have gone

670
00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:00.079
<v Speaker 1>off to a remote area and shot himself in his

671
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:01.320
<v Speaker 1>His body has never been found.

672
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:05.199
<v Speaker 3>Is it possible too, that he did stage all this,

673
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:08.039
<v Speaker 3>but not to complete suicide, but to actually start over.

674
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:11.039
<v Speaker 3>If you look back at what you guys just shared,

675
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:14.559
<v Speaker 3>and he has this fake military ID that looks pretty authentic.

676
00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:18.639
<v Speaker 3>What says he couldn't have also falsified a passport or

677
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:23.119
<v Speaker 3>gotten a different driver's license, or fled to Mexico, which

678
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:25.639
<v Speaker 3>would make sense to take your weapons with you, but

679
00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:29.199
<v Speaker 3>to leave all identification behind. He also could have just

680
00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:31.360
<v Speaker 3>left a life that he was tired of having to

681
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:34.800
<v Speaker 3>pretend to be somebody he wasn't and to try to

682
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:37.159
<v Speaker 3>not be the quote failure. He felt like he was

683
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:40.440
<v Speaker 3>he was living a double life. He might have felt

684
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:42.679
<v Speaker 3>like he was getting constricted with the truth soon going

685
00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:44.760
<v Speaker 3>to be coming out, and he just wanted to leave

686
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:47.199
<v Speaker 3>it all behind. It's pretty convenient that you kind of

687
00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:50.079
<v Speaker 3>pack all your identification, your dog tags and things like that,

688
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:53.719
<v Speaker 3>just for everyone to find, and you're never found.

689
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:56.840
<v Speaker 2>That's certainly what makes sense, because, as we said, the

690
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:59.599
<v Speaker 2>walls seemed to be closing in where he might have

691
00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:02.559
<v Speaker 2>been paranoid that all his lies about going on secret

692
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:06.199
<v Speaker 2>missions were about to be exposed. But rather than choose suicide,

693
00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:09.000
<v Speaker 2>he just decided to disappear and start over and start

694
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.559
<v Speaker 2>a new life. But of course that they've never found

695
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:14.880
<v Speaker 2>any paper trail to indicate that he's still alive over

696
00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:17.559
<v Speaker 2>the past thirty years, but still back in nineteen ninety three,

697
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:20.400
<v Speaker 2>it was still easier than it is now to start

698
00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:22.800
<v Speaker 2>all over under a new identity. So I suppose he

699
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:25.639
<v Speaker 2>could have pulled it off, particularly if he made it

700
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:28.039
<v Speaker 2>down over the border in New Mexico or something where

701
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.519
<v Speaker 2>he would be much harder to track.

702
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:33.599
<v Speaker 1>But wouldn't it be hard to get weapons across the border?

703
00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:36.800
<v Speaker 1>Like that's this totally makes sense to me what you said, Ash.

704
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:40.280
<v Speaker 1>Just the one thing I can't get past is why

705
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:44.920
<v Speaker 1>he needed to order all this ammunition and buy these

706
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:49.679
<v Speaker 1>weapons prior. Because if we're supposed to believe, like Yolanda said,

707
00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:52.960
<v Speaker 1>if the dog tags are found, then he's dead. Then

708
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:55.800
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't need to convince anybody that he went off

709
00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:59.239
<v Speaker 1>to end his own life with these weapons. And if

710
00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:02.519
<v Speaker 1>he was indeed contracted by the CIA or something, wouldn't

711
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:04.000
<v Speaker 1>they then provide the weapons?

712
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:07.280
<v Speaker 2>That is true, Yeah, And the thing that has always

713
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:09.920
<v Speaker 2>bugged me is that if he was planning suicide, why

714
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:12.679
<v Speaker 2>would he need two weapons like he only need one.

715
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:16.280
<v Speaker 2>So it does make me wonder alternatively that maybe he

716
00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:18.519
<v Speaker 2>may not have been involved in anything with the military

717
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:21.199
<v Speaker 2>of the CIA, but he still got himself involved in

718
00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:23.960
<v Speaker 2>something dangerous which made him think that he would need

719
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.320
<v Speaker 2>these weapons. So, like I just said, if Justin had

720
00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:30.159
<v Speaker 2>always been planning suicide, you have to ask why would

721
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:32.440
<v Speaker 2>he feel the need to buy two handguns in over

722
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:35.880
<v Speaker 2>one hundred rounds of ammunition. It's also odd that he

723
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:39.400
<v Speaker 2>would purchase gun cleaning equipment alongside those items if the

724
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:41.559
<v Speaker 2>guns were only going to be used for the express

725
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:44.719
<v Speaker 2>purpose of shooting himself. So I don't think we can

726
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:48.320
<v Speaker 2>completely rule out the possibility that Justin legitimately bought those

727
00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:51.280
<v Speaker 2>guns for the purpose of protecting himself. The whether it

728
00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:54.719
<v Speaker 2>was protection against something real or imaginary is another matter.

729
00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:57.760
<v Speaker 2>But even if Justin did end his own life, he

730
00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:00.280
<v Speaker 2>doesn't necessarily have to go to a remote area in

731
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:03.199
<v Speaker 2>order to do so. For all we know, his body

732
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:05.320
<v Speaker 2>may have been found at one point, but since he

733
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.880
<v Speaker 2>wasn't carrying any identification, he was buried in a pauper's

734
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:12.519
<v Speaker 2>grave as a John Doe somewhere. Justin also happened to

735
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.000
<v Speaker 2>go missing right next to the Pacific Ocean, so if

736
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:17.639
<v Speaker 2>he drowned himself or jumped off a bridge into a

737
00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:20.679
<v Speaker 2>body of water somewhere, that could also account for why

738
00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:24.800
<v Speaker 2>his body has never resurfaced. Another possibility is that Justin

739
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:27.679
<v Speaker 2>did not kill himself, but decided to start over and

740
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.000
<v Speaker 2>live off the grid, which is why he left all

741
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:33.119
<v Speaker 2>of his identification and personal items behind in his car.

742
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:35.760
<v Speaker 2>For all we know, Justin could have lived as a

743
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:38.599
<v Speaker 2>transient for a while, but if so, the odds of

744
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:41.159
<v Speaker 2>him still being alive after more than thirty years are

745
00:38:41.239 --> 00:38:42.119
<v Speaker 2>not great.

746
00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:45.960
<v Speaker 3>Nobody could have crossed over the Mexican border and built

747
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.320
<v Speaker 3>himself a new little life and been somebody totally different

748
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:53.360
<v Speaker 3>and actually been okay. I mean, it's crazy to think about.

749
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:53.559
<v Speaker 2>It.

750
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:57.840
<v Speaker 3>Sounds crazy right now in twenty twenty five, but back

751
00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:01.119
<v Speaker 3>then was it as difficult said It was a lot

752
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:05.559
<v Speaker 3>easier to hide your tracks and to false fight identification

753
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:09.039
<v Speaker 3>records and things like that. So with very little money,

754
00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:10.960
<v Speaker 3>I feel like he could have found a space to

755
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.599
<v Speaker 3>start over as somebody, as a completely different man.

756
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:18.039
<v Speaker 1>And who knows even if he did do that. He

757
00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:20.599
<v Speaker 1>may have He may have, like you said, Ash, he

758
00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:23.119
<v Speaker 1>may have thrived, he may have done very well. Or

759
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:26.159
<v Speaker 1>his mental health issues. He might have realized that he

760
00:39:26.199 --> 00:39:29.320
<v Speaker 1>couldn't run away from them. He might have got geographic

761
00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:33.400
<v Speaker 1>he might have got some geographical distance between him and Yulanda,

762
00:39:33.400 --> 00:39:36.320
<v Speaker 1>and maybe this other girlfriend and his issues with the military,

763
00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:40.119
<v Speaker 1>but it didn't fix the problems, and maybe then he

764
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:42.199
<v Speaker 1>chose to end his own life, or he may have

765
00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:46.840
<v Speaker 1>encountered somebody because of his mental health issues that chose

766
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:50.000
<v Speaker 1>to prey upon him and ended his life. Even though

767
00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:52.320
<v Speaker 1>I believe there's no truth at all to the idea

768
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:55.039
<v Speaker 1>that Justin went missing is part of some secret mission,

769
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:58.079
<v Speaker 1>I would not completely rule out the possibility that he

770
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:01.199
<v Speaker 1>got himself involved in something illegal which put his life

771
00:40:01.239 --> 00:40:04.119
<v Speaker 1>at risk and led to him being murdered. However, there's

772
00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:06.800
<v Speaker 1>just no evidence of that, and until we see something

773
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:10.599
<v Speaker 1>more concrete, I'll continue to lean towards Justin being responsible

774
00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:13.639
<v Speaker 1>for his own disappearance. I know that Justin was never

775
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:16.880
<v Speaker 1>officially diagnosed with any mental health issues, but you have

776
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:20.440
<v Speaker 1>to wonder if he might have started suffering from paranoid schizophrenia,

777
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.920
<v Speaker 1>as Yon said of that illness generally starts affecting young

778
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:26.320
<v Speaker 1>males when they're in their late teens or early twenties.

779
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:29.400
<v Speaker 1>He may have legitimately believed that he was working on

780
00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:31.960
<v Speaker 1>a secret mission for the government and that his life

781
00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:34.519
<v Speaker 1>was in danger, but things may have reached the point

782
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:37.760
<v Speaker 1>where he ultimately decided that suicide or disappearing off the

783
00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:41.519
<v Speaker 1>grid were his only options, but until we find Justin's body,

784
00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:42.840
<v Speaker 1>we'll never know for certain.

785
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:46.119
<v Speaker 2>What I find so frustrating is that I'm not sure

786
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:49.199
<v Speaker 2>if anyone is still actively investigating this case, or if

787
00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:52.840
<v Speaker 2>they're even doing so. To begin with, Justin's family claimed

788
00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:55.199
<v Speaker 2>that the police and the army you wouldn't do anything

789
00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:57.719
<v Speaker 2>to help them. And if you go to Justin's profile

790
00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:01.480
<v Speaker 2>page with the Charlie Project, the instigating agency is listed

791
00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:06.000
<v Speaker 2>as the Clinton Police Department. That's the burgwinkles original hometown.

792
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:08.719
<v Speaker 2>But I'm not sure how thoroughly a police department from

793
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:13.119
<v Speaker 2>Massachusetts will investigate a missing person's case from California. It

794
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:15.199
<v Speaker 2>would be one thing if Justin's death had been ruled

795
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:18.480
<v Speaker 2>as suicide and the authorities had closed the investigation, but

796
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:21.320
<v Speaker 2>he is technically still a missing person, and even if

797
00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:23.679
<v Speaker 2>he did kill himself, it would be nice to recover

798
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.920
<v Speaker 2>his remains and provide resolution for his family. So if

799
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:30.039
<v Speaker 2>you happen to have any information about the unsolved disappearance

800
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:35.159
<v Speaker 2>of Justin Bergwinkle, please contact the appropriate authorities. Jules Ashley

801
00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:36.840
<v Speaker 2>any final thoughts on this case.

802
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.760
<v Speaker 3>It is really interesting that the investigating agency is listed

803
00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:43.840
<v Speaker 3>as his hometown because, like you said, all of these

804
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:48.679
<v Speaker 3>actions occur on the West coast, and so when you're

805
00:41:48.679 --> 00:41:51.840
<v Speaker 3>looking at the different agencies that could be part of

806
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:57.159
<v Speaker 3>researching and figuring out investigating where this man went, it

807
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:00.679
<v Speaker 3>would not be someone in the Clinton Blaze Department.

808
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:00.920
<v Speaker 2>Right.

809
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:04.559
<v Speaker 3>You have Massachusetts trying to look into some actions that

810
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:09.320
<v Speaker 3>originated in California. So the fact that the army and

811
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:14.559
<v Speaker 3>law enforcement there isn't helping is devastating, right, whether it's quote,

812
00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:16.679
<v Speaker 3>you know, it's my role or it's your role to

813
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:20.360
<v Speaker 3>do So there's a family that's saying, please help us,

814
00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:23.039
<v Speaker 3>and they never got the help that they were begging for.

815
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:26.159
<v Speaker 3>No matter what was going on with Justin, whether he

816
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:29.159
<v Speaker 3>was in criminal behavior, whether he was having an affair,

817
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:33.199
<v Speaker 3>whether he completed suicide, or he you know, ran away

818
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:35.960
<v Speaker 3>and started a great new life. His family has no

819
00:42:36.039 --> 00:42:39.679
<v Speaker 3>idea what happened, and so they're grieving as son that

820
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:44.079
<v Speaker 3>could have still been alive, or could have been hurt,

821
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:47.480
<v Speaker 3>or could have hurt himself, and all those what ifs

822
00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:50.280
<v Speaker 3>had to have plagued them their entire life. And so

823
00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:53.760
<v Speaker 3>that's the real tragedy here is that you know, if

824
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:58.199
<v Speaker 3>Justin did take his own life, there's a prayer that

825
00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:00.960
<v Speaker 3>he found peace that he was looking for. And if he,

826
00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:04.679
<v Speaker 3>you know, ran into criminal behavior, there's danger that the

827
00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:08.159
<v Speaker 3>community is still at risk because there's criminals active. Or

828
00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:09.760
<v Speaker 3>if he ran off to create a new life, how

829
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:12.920
<v Speaker 3>sad that his family is left to handle the grief

830
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.400
<v Speaker 3>and he got to escape the life that he created,

831
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:19.800
<v Speaker 3>you know. So it's the whole situation is absolutely tragic.

832
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:23.039
<v Speaker 3>No matter what the actual scenario was, the only thing

833
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:24.719
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure of is that it was not a secret

834
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:28.480
<v Speaker 3>mission with the military, and that the grief here for

835
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:31.639
<v Speaker 3>the surviving family members is something that didn't get to

836
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:32.559
<v Speaker 3>get resolved.

837
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:36.519
<v Speaker 1>I echo your sentiments here, Ash. No matter what the

838
00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:40.760
<v Speaker 1>outcome ended up being, this family suffered immensely not having

839
00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:44.159
<v Speaker 1>a resolution and not knowing what happened to Justin. I

840
00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:46.440
<v Speaker 1>really have no idea, Like we've talked about all these

841
00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:49.840
<v Speaker 1>different possibilities, and I don't lean one way or the other.

842
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.400
<v Speaker 1>But my heart really is with the family here because

843
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:56.159
<v Speaker 1>I can't imagine what it would feel like not to

844
00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:59.599
<v Speaker 1>know what happened. And if he chose to leave on

845
00:43:59.679 --> 00:44:03.199
<v Speaker 1>his own accord, why did he do this? Why didn't

846
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:05.760
<v Speaker 1>he let us know? And I think you get that

847
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:09.800
<v Speaker 1>in that situation, people experience that guilt where like, what

848
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:13.199
<v Speaker 1>if I could have done something to intervene, and people

849
00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:18.440
<v Speaker 1>unfairly punish themselves for somebody else's choices. And I just

850
00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:21.599
<v Speaker 1>really wish at the end of the day that we somehow,

851
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:25.039
<v Speaker 1>like Robin mentioned earlier, that there's a possibility that Justin's

852
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:27.000
<v Speaker 1>body may have been found and maybe it's in a

853
00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:30.840
<v Speaker 1>pauper's grave somewhere, that with all of these John and

854
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:36.480
<v Speaker 1>Jane does being identified, that Justin Bergwinkle, maybe he's out

855
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:38.920
<v Speaker 1>there somewhere and the family will get the answers that

856
00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:39.480
<v Speaker 1>they deserve.

857
00:44:40.280 --> 00:44:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we mentioned our last episode that tragically, Justin's mother, Diane,

858
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:46.199
<v Speaker 2>died in two thousand and six at the young age

859
00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:48.800
<v Speaker 2>of fifty three, So I think that the stress of

860
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:50.840
<v Speaker 2>losing her son may have played a role in in

861
00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:53.920
<v Speaker 2>her dying and not getting to find answers about what

862
00:44:54.039 --> 00:44:56.599
<v Speaker 2>happened to him. And yeah, I remember watching this on

863
00:44:56.679 --> 00:44:59.159
<v Speaker 2>Unsolved Mysteries back in the day that this was the air,

864
00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:00.880
<v Speaker 2>when they were doing a lot a lot of military

865
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:04.320
<v Speaker 2>conspiracy theme stories and a lot of them involved like

866
00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:07.599
<v Speaker 2>suspicious suicides, and allegations of a cover up. But this

867
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:10.280
<v Speaker 2>one was a lot different because Justin did not go

868
00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:12.840
<v Speaker 2>missing near his military base. He went missing after he

869
00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:15.840
<v Speaker 2>was a wall and his body was never found, and

870
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:19.159
<v Speaker 2>there was really no evidence to support the allegations that

871
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:21.320
<v Speaker 2>he was involved in a secret mission because the sole

872
00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:24.320
<v Speaker 2>source of that was Justin himself, and judging by me

873
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:26.599
<v Speaker 2>his behavior, it's clearly showed that he was not in

874
00:45:26.679 --> 00:45:28.920
<v Speaker 2>his right mind at that time. So this is one

875
00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:32.079
<v Speaker 2>where I don't blame a military conspiracy, but I am

876
00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:34.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of surprised they haven't tried harder to find him,

877
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.159
<v Speaker 2>because usually they go all out trying to find soldiers

878
00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:40.079
<v Speaker 2>who went a wall. But I'm not sure they did

879
00:45:40.159 --> 00:45:42.400
<v Speaker 2>much of an investigation at all. It seems like the

880
00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:45.119
<v Speaker 2>family had to do all the searching on their own,

881
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:48.199
<v Speaker 2>and I don't know how much investigation has been done

882
00:45:48.199 --> 00:45:51.000
<v Speaker 2>by law enforcement either. So that's why I don't think

883
00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:55.000
<v Speaker 2>it's implausible that if Justin did disappear voluntarily, he could

884
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:57.199
<v Speaker 2>be living as a transient, He could be living off

885
00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:00.280
<v Speaker 2>the radar somewhere under a new identity, or he could

886
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:02.440
<v Speaker 2>have just died as a John Doe and no one

887
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:04.960
<v Speaker 2>ever put two and two together and buried him in

888
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:07.960
<v Speaker 2>a pauper's grave. But it is a sad story because

889
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.639
<v Speaker 2>no matter what happened, it appears that Justin either was

890
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.559
<v Speaker 2>having mental health issues or just got himself involved in

891
00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:16.239
<v Speaker 2>something else where he wound up weighing over his head,

892
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:20.239
<v Speaker 2>and someone outside the military was responsible for his disappearance.

893
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:23.480
<v Speaker 2>We just don't have any evidence either way, and hopefully

894
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:26.400
<v Speaker 2>one of these days they'll find something. We'll bring a

895
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:28.559
<v Speaker 2>conclusive resolution to Justin's family.

896
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:31.239
<v Speaker 4>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

897
00:46:31.239 --> 00:46:32.719
<v Speaker 4>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

898
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:35.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes. The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

899
00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:39.639
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

900
00:46:39.719 --> 00:46:43.119
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

901
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:45.960
<v Speaker 2>and signed thank you cards to anyone who signs up

902
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:48.599
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

903
00:46:48.599 --> 00:46:52.719
<v Speaker 2>tier tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

904
00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:55.880
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

905
00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:59.239
<v Speaker 2>The Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

906
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.039
<v Speaker 2>and if you join our highest tier tier three, the

907
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:05.039
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars tier, one of the features we offer is

908
00:47:05.079 --> 00:47:09.360
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries

909
00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:12.599
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

910
00:47:12.679 --> 00:47:15.880
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

911
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:19.280
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

912
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:22.440
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

913
00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:25.920
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

914
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:28.760
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

915
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:31.559
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

916
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:34.320
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

917
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:37.360
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

918
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:38.159
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

919
00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:39.880
<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

920
00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:42.880
<v Speaker 4>about the Jeweles and Ashley Patreons. So there's early ad

921
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.800
<v Speaker 4>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

922
00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:48.639
<v Speaker 4>Path Went Chili mini's, which are always over an hour,

923
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:50.840
<v Speaker 4>so they're not very mini, but they're just too short

924
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:53.920
<v Speaker 4>to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

925
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:56.519
<v Speaker 4>so we hope you'll check out those Patreons. We'll link

926
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:57.639
<v Speaker 4>them in the show notes.

927
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:00.079
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

928
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:02.519
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

929
00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:05.559
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

930
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:08.960
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at The Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

931
00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:11.679
<v Speaker 2>You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwink. So

932
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:14.400
<v Speaker 2>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

933
00:48:14.440 --> 00:48:16.880
<v Speaker 2>trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

934
00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:20.239
<v Speaker 4>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers comedy