Speaker 1: Welcome to the nonprofits. For today, we cover two stories
Speaker 1: where pastors claim that voting for the wrong person can
Speaker 1: be hazardous to your health. In a bizarre twist, a
Speaker 1: pastor Robert Henderson claims he healed a man who had
Speaker 1: been hospitalized for voting Democrat, suggesting that spiritual ailments were
Speaker 1: merely a side effect of poor political choices. Repent and
Speaker 1: you'll be cured, he proclaimed, as the switching parties could
Speaker 1: remedy everything from the sniffles to serious health issues. The
Speaker 1: second pastor proclaims of fulfilling their divine assignment will protect
Speaker 1: them from death. These spectacles of faith us a partisan
Speaker 1: politics showcase how some religious leaders are reinterpreting a political
Speaker 1: affiliation as a matter of spiritual life and death, prompting
Speaker 1: laughter and concern and equal measures. After all, who knew
Speaker 1: a vote could be so hazardous to your health. These
Speaker 1: articles are from The Friendly Atheist by Him and Meta
Speaker 1: on September twenty six, twenty twenty four, and Slave Magazine
Speaker 1: by Molly Olmsted on September twenty fifth, twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: I have to admit, when I first read this little
Speaker 1: bit of trouble, even taking as serious but Jonathan, I
Speaker 1: was curious, what do you think is this a story
Speaker 1: about this dying democrat? Is this just some made up
Speaker 1: story to excite and work up a crowd. Well, what
Speaker 1: do you think it seemed.
Speaker 2: To be eating. So yeah, they're eating it up because
Speaker 2: that kind of anecdotal evidence is something they eat up
Speaker 2: to justify their positions on a lot of things. But
Speaker 2: one of the things that makes me kind of interesting
Speaker 2: is that, you know, the preacher prayed for him, right
Speaker 2: and five minutes later a congress a congregationalist who was
Speaker 2: aware of that was somehow related to the to the
Speaker 2: gentleman involved, got a phone call saying he just came
Speaker 2: out of his fever broke, he's fine. You know. That
Speaker 2: was about five minutes after that. And I'm sitting here
Speaker 2: thinking to myself, I've been in a lot of hospitals,
Speaker 2: but that word when somebody's feaver breaks or something like that,
Speaker 2: will go to the doctor right away and then go
Speaker 2: no place for ten or fifteen minutes, sometimes an hour,
Speaker 2: and then it will finally get out like family and
Speaker 2: friends and things, you know, because they've got a lot
Speaker 2: going on, you know, especially in ICU, you know, so
Speaker 2: it's like I was supposed to get released, and it
Speaker 2: took at least three hours to just get my release
Speaker 2: papers up there and then you know, and that was
Speaker 2: like hours after I actually responded to the medication I
Speaker 2: was on. So it was like, yeah, I don't think
Speaker 2: that his prayer happened when, you know, before his fever broke.
Speaker 2: I think it happened somewhat after the fact. So it's like,
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense to me, But it does make sense
Speaker 2: to me that the preacher Henderson stoked the correlation with
Speaker 2: the timing of the prayer, because why wouldn't he. You know,
Speaker 2: he's trying to get his congregationalists to believe every word
Speaker 2: he says, and so naturally he cured the guy. Right,
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
Speaker 1: But you know, hey, I have to say you're you're
Speaker 1: a lot nicer than I am, because I question whether
Speaker 1: any of the story ever occurred at all. And this
Speaker 1: is not a complete fabrication to work up a crowd.
Speaker 1: But as you said, nothing happens fast in the hospital,
Speaker 1: So if the word just came down that the patient's
Speaker 1: fever had broken, it seems like odd terminology. The way
Speaker 1: he talks about this fever all around, very not medical.
Speaker 1: For the lack of a better way to put it,
Speaker 1: I just think that it just sounds like a good story,
Speaker 1: a good fish story. Now, Eli, I know that the
Speaker 1: leaders of this gnar, this New Apostolic Reformation, they've become
Speaker 1: influential political figures within evangelical Christianity. I know that they
Speaker 1: use symbols like the appeal to Heaven flag. I know
Speaker 1: that that's the same flag also that we've covered here
Speaker 1: on the nonprofits of Samuel Alito's wife actually flying and
Speaker 1: getting into some hot water. Do you think there's a
Speaker 1: trade off between what we're seeing with these evangelical religious
Speaker 1: leaders and political figures like this, Oh?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, because political leaders of a particular persuasion have learned
Speaker 3: that they can get free campaign support, just like from
Speaker 3: church leaders, just by like presenting the right image. You know,
Speaker 3: if they say the right things, they take the right pictures,
Speaker 3: these churches will fill the ballots on your behalf for free.
Speaker 3: And that's what's happening. And I think the idea here
Speaker 3: is kind of disgusting because I'm on the same page
Speaker 3: as you. I don't think that story ever happened. And
Speaker 3: the reason I feel pretty comfort about that, like I
Speaker 3: didn't work in a hospital. But I've worked in the
Speaker 3: medical field and I did some clinicals, and I don't
Speaker 3: remember like a lot of phone calling taking place when
Speaker 3: developments happen. Like the people that are there need to know.
Speaker 3: And then if somebody like the next of kin comes
Speaker 3: in and as they are in the room, they're like, hey,
Speaker 3: what's going on with treatment? But for the most part,
Speaker 3: like if it's an adult with a fever, that adult
Speaker 3: is capable of making their own medical decisions and you're
Speaker 3: not going to call anybody to tell them that the
Speaker 3: fever broke because that just doesn't make any sense. And yeah,
Speaker 3: the same I agree with you, John that like once
Speaker 3: something does happen, it some time is going to go
Speaker 3: by before like any you know, any reaction, Yeah, any reaction,
Speaker 3: any that's less work.
Speaker 2: On their shoulders at the moment. So exactly, yeahs to
Speaker 2: worry about, Yes.
Speaker 3: One last thing I have to worry about right now. Exactly.
Speaker 3: So I think that the because this is this, Henderson
Speaker 3: isn't the only pastor to do something like this fabricated
Speaker 3: story and be like, well, it's because of this particular reason,
Speaker 3: but it was God that made it better. Just to
Speaker 3: like kind of influence the opinions and the like the
Speaker 3: non religious beliefs of their their congregations, their congregants, and
Speaker 3: he knows that not everybody is going to believe it,
Speaker 3: but some of them are going to and and the
Speaker 3: ones that don't aren't going to speak up because they
Speaker 3: they're they're going to face like alienation from the church.
Speaker 3: People are going to like accuse him of not supporting
Speaker 3: the pastor, and they're going to be like kind of ostracized.
Speaker 3: So they're just kind of psychologically torturing gullible people into
Speaker 3: shaping the world the way that they, the individual pastors
Speaker 3: want it, and I think it's kind of use.
Speaker 2: It's also dangerous in the long term because no two
Speaker 2: of these pastors have the same vision of what they
Speaker 2: want the world to be, and so eventually the religious
Speaker 2: wars happen all the time because you got two people
Speaker 2: in power who don't want to share power, and so
Speaker 2: they have to fight each other and you have really
Speaker 2: nasty things as a result.
Speaker 1: I agree with what you said, Eli, as far as
Speaker 1: the way information goes from a situation like this, the
Speaker 1: way the discussion happened, it almost sounded like they had
Speaker 1: a red line directly into the doctor's bluetooth on his head,
Speaker 1: and so the doctor could give them a play by
Speaker 1: play while he's addressing the situation and the health concerns
Speaker 1: of this patient they're talking about. And that's just not
Speaker 1: how things work.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: One thing I wanted to question you about, is this
Speaker 1: the newest Republican healthcare? I know that the Book of
Speaker 1: Mark was the latter half of the last chapter was
Speaker 1: written much later than the rest of the book. So
Speaker 1: I took it on myself to do a little rewrite
Speaker 1: and figured that whoever believes in vosts GOP will be saved,
Speaker 1: but whoever for lots of Democrats shall be condemned forever.
Speaker 1: That's kind of what it sounds like to me, a
Speaker 1: heavenly hmo. So what did you think about the idea
Speaker 1: about when he's talking about all this evilness coming through
Speaker 1: voting for Democrats? Are we seeing pandemics out there of
Speaker 1: people who've voted in the past, or people other than
Speaker 1: Republicans getting sick? Is that something?
Speaker 2: Think you didn't hear that eighty two million people who
Speaker 2: voted for Biden all got sick at once. You didn't
Speaker 2: see that it was headline news man, Well at least
Speaker 2: it was in the religious newsletters. But maybe I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2: But you know, the idea is also that these things
Speaker 2: are made up all the time. I mean, lying has
Speaker 2: become the new way to get everybody to get excited,
Speaker 2: you know. And I'm sitting there going, you know, there's
Speaker 2: literally the country is the strongest economically, and otherwise it's
Speaker 2: ever and wages are up all that, and they still
Speaker 2: claim that it's going to to the dogs, right, And
Speaker 2: they claim that because if things are going better under
Speaker 2: their demonic because they'd like to demonize us. But not
Speaker 2: only that, but not just Democrats, but anybody who's not
Speaker 2: a Republican is considered working with literally working with the devil.
Speaker 2: And that's how they present this. They have a black
Speaker 2: and white theology, and that black and white is very
Speaker 2: important to them to maintain, and so they, you know,
Speaker 2: they want to make sure that they're on the right
Speaker 2: side of things, you know, that they're on God's side.
Speaker 2: And you know, one of the old sayings I heard is,
Speaker 2: and this is a little different than most people are,
Speaker 2: is that the devil's greatest deception was making sure that
Speaker 2: everybody thought he was God in the Bible, and that
Speaker 2: the devil was the real God, so he made everybody
Speaker 2: believe the flip side of things, And if you look
Speaker 2: at it, it kind of looks that way, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: So you know, but it's just like, we're all demons,
Speaker 2: we're not human, so it's okay to hurt us, kill us,
Speaker 2: do whatever they need to get rid of us, getting
Speaker 2: ready for their big rapture.
Speaker 1: I definitely think you're onto something there with the fact
Speaker 1: that we're all demons and we're not good people and
Speaker 1: we're not even human. I think that that dehumanizing factor
Speaker 1: of what they teach really is the most dangerous thing
Speaker 1: they do, because, as you said, it allows people to
Speaker 1: kill and do terrible things that they would never consider
Speaker 1: themselves doing to another human. You mentioned satanic Hank Kooneman.
Speaker 1: He's the one that put on that Second Spectacle where
Speaker 1: the pastor made the really out there claims, but you
Speaker 1: know he made He's he's been on record saying that
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift was satanic and that she did satanic acts
Speaker 1: in her and her performances. And he's also we did
Speaker 1: the show about a three million dollar land scam he
Speaker 1: did one time. But you know, as you said, switching
Speaker 1: over to you though, Eli I noticed that him in
Speaker 1: this article made the comment that they cast a spell
Speaker 1: to heal the guy. Well, what did you think of
Speaker 1: that that terminology when they're talking about you know, magic
Speaker 1: and satanic and all these things and then lumping them
Speaker 1: in with casting a spell.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just kind of thinking about it when
Speaker 3: you know, John was talking about how like we're all demonic,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, you guys are the ones that believe
Speaker 3: in demons, Like you guys believe in all this crazy
Speaker 3: stuff that you think is so dark and like horrible
Speaker 3: and twisted. Were just like, don't do that. And I
Speaker 3: think it's really fitting that he called it casting a spell,
Speaker 3: because I we call it magic all the time, right,
Speaker 3: whatever their preferred brand of magic is, And it's just
Speaker 3: sort of I think it's really fitting. It's just just
Speaker 3: specifically based on, you know, the way John was kind
Speaker 3: of describing it there a little bit ago. I just
Speaker 3: it as I'm looking at It's just one of those
Speaker 3: stories where you hear it from the outsign and you're like,
Speaker 3: how do people think this really happen? And you realize
Speaker 3: that it has a lot to do with that sort
Speaker 3: of when you get into an environment where everybody is,
Speaker 3: you know, saying the same thing, and everybody is having
Speaker 3: a super good time about it, and they're all excited
Speaker 3: and there's you know, camaraderie and togetherness and community, and
Speaker 3: you start to have like these endorphins and good feelings
Speaker 3: and you associate it's that's a spell in itself, you know,
Speaker 3: if if we're talking about it really like, it has
Speaker 3: this effect on you that is going to make you
Speaker 3: think that there's something way more substantial to what is
Speaker 3: going on than there really is. And it's that it's
Speaker 3: so dangerous in this way that it leads people to
Speaker 3: believe things like this and then to believe that like
Speaker 3: the way that you vote like that, that US politics
Speaker 3: specifically is of such a concern to the master and
Speaker 3: creator of the entire universe that the way that you
Speaker 3: vote has you know, uh, determination, determining power and where
Speaker 3: your eternal soul goes forever and the.
Speaker 2: Higher consequences dire exactly.
Speaker 3: And the idea that they're they're using this and I
Speaker 3: said it earlier, it's psychological torture to convince these people
Speaker 3: that they have to think and behave and believe a
Speaker 3: certain way or else. And it's the most significant. It
Speaker 3: is the ultimate or else.
Speaker 2: I also I'm curious about the you know, cast a
Speaker 2: spell thing. If these ministers and preachers are casting spells,
Speaker 2: can't they be accused of witchcraft and burned at the stake.
Speaker 1: Well, of course they wouldn't consider casting spells, and they
Speaker 1: would just look at that as you trying to equate
Speaker 1: their godly manners with your filthy, sinful, demonic ways and
Speaker 1: equating the two, which makes you even more demonic, because
Speaker 1: my way is the right way, your ways a demonic way.
Speaker 1: And you're okay though until you do something I don't like,
Speaker 1: and then your ways demonic too.
Speaker 2: Because that goes back to which to live.
Speaker 1: Well, absolutely, but they don't consider it. They wouldn't consider
Speaker 1: it a spell. That's the whole thing. But ye, look,
Speaker 1: I'm with you, because you know. One thing that concerns
Speaker 1: me though, seriously, John, is the fact that you know,
Speaker 1: you talked about how this dehumanizes people, and one in
Speaker 1: particular on that second wall knows he made the comment
Speaker 1: that the predatory left is going to make children suicidal,
Speaker 1: suicidal by evangelizing them into thinking they're the wrong gender.
Speaker 1: Telling the crowd, and I quote this, you're authorized to
Speaker 1: take the Philistines out of position. Now knowing who the
Speaker 1: Philistines were, a traditional enemy of God's people and the
Speaker 1: Old Testament, do you think he's promoting violence there? Is
Speaker 1: that what he's doing?
Speaker 2: Yep, definitely, he wants to He wants the army of
Speaker 2: God to defeat the minions of Satan. You know, it's
Speaker 2: it's an old evangelical trick to try and keep people
Speaker 2: under control and to direct them to commit violence against
Speaker 2: people that are directly threatening their religion or their control
Speaker 2: over the people. And that's just a bite model, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of it's kind of screwed up.
Speaker 1: Very dangerous, you know. And I know that here in
Speaker 1: the ACA and other nonprofits, it's important that we steer
Speaker 1: away from certain topics, especially on election years in particular.
Speaker 1: But I find it absolutely appalling that these people can
Speaker 1: talk about voting democrat. Henderson made the comment that it's
Speaker 1: a spirit of death and all these different things that
Speaker 1: they talk about, or they talk about how important it
Speaker 1: is to literally vote a certain way or you're going
Speaker 1: to burn forever. And you know, going back to you Eli,
Speaker 1: you had mentioned that, you know there are people who
Speaker 1: are going to remain silent because they fear that if
Speaker 1: they don't remain silent, you know, they'll be opstracized and
Speaker 1: they'll be othered as well. And that's one of the
Speaker 1: things that I think that this group counts on is
Speaker 1: the fact that you know, if you don't agree with it, well,
Speaker 1: just shut the hell up and smile anyway, because that's
Speaker 1: what we're that's what we're going with. And the thing
Speaker 1: is is that I feel that when people hear that,
Speaker 1: it's a dangerous of a danger of desensitizing them to
Speaker 1: the behaviors that this can lead to. What do you
Speaker 1: think about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I wanted to add too, because I said
Speaker 3: earlier they'd be accused of, you know, not supporting the
Speaker 3: church or the pastor, but not only that, it would
Speaker 3: go it would go beyond that to be like, oh, no,
Speaker 3: you're doubting God. You're doubting that God is capable of
Speaker 3: doing that. So it what will happen is they're gonna
Speaker 3: they'll go to church and they'll you know, hear these
Speaker 3: things they don't agree with, but they'll keep their mouths
Speaker 3: shut and they'll interact with these people outside of those
Speaker 3: moments where they're hearing those things. Well, these are good people,
Speaker 3: so maybe it's not that bad of a thing that
Speaker 3: they have these bad ideas, not realizing that even though
Speaker 3: they may be friendly people to people that they consider
Speaker 3: part of their in group or specifically their church, they're
Speaker 3: going to go out and make other decisions to other people,
Speaker 3: to strangers, and they're going to vote based on the
Speaker 3: things that they believe, and that doesn't the fact that
Speaker 3: they're kind doesn't ultimately make them good people. There's more
Speaker 3: to being a good person than just being kind to
Speaker 3: a person's face that you're familiar with. So, yeah, I
Speaker 3: think to say it desensitizes is a really apt way
Speaker 3: to put it, because they're just not gonna they're going
Speaker 3: to assume like, well, you know, my church isn't the problem,
Speaker 3: it's the other churches.
Speaker 1: I think you're right with the fact that what this
Speaker 1: does is it allows them to judge people on other levels,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, away from church and and seeing and
Speaker 1: interacting and getting that you know, they're all right, they're
Speaker 1: good people, and so giving a buy and a pass
Speaker 1: to absolutely abhorrent behavior because well, you know, they smile,
Speaker 1: they yes, they greet me, they do all these things
Speaker 1: right and nice. Well, the problem is step out of
Speaker 1: line and see what happens, and that fear because they've
Speaker 1: an what happens when you step out of line. That's
Speaker 1: the reminder of whether they're good people or not? Are
Speaker 1: you good people? Until you and I have a disagreement
Speaker 1: and then you know, I dump you and head out,
Speaker 1: or do I go ahead and say all right, let's
Speaker 1: talk this out and see where we are from here
Speaker 1: and then having a conversation like adults rather than you know,
Speaker 1: you're of the devil because and that's what it is.
Speaker 1: It's so completely outhering because that's all it does. And John,
Speaker 1: before I wrap this up, is there anything else you
Speaker 1: wanted to add to this?
Speaker 2: No, you know, this kind of speech and bigotry and
Speaker 2: that when they other other people they're they're doing that
Speaker 2: to everybody that they had a bigoted attitude towards beginning
Speaker 2: been with, and this religion just gives them cover to
Speaker 2: be who they really are, and no matter how despicable
Speaker 2: that is. You know, back, you know, not too long ago,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't hear any of this in public. It'll be
Speaker 2: the stuff that wasn't said out loud. But now it's
Speaker 2: been legitimized and normalized to put people down directly, entire
Speaker 2: groups of people, which is just a generalization error.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've seen a lot of that, and I think
Speaker 1: a lot of that starts with leadership who goes and
Speaker 1: detigrates people for their own gain or just for fun,
Speaker 1: or just for political points. And then we see that,
Speaker 1: and we see those sound bites that we hear time
Speaker 1: and time again, and I do think it becomes desensitized
Speaker 1: so that some of the words that we wouldn't allow,
Speaker 1: not on mean you or us in particular, but that
Speaker 1: you wouldn't allow out of your mouth has become normalized
Speaker 1: and become things that it's okay to say now. And
Speaker 1: that is a very dangerous route because what it does,
Speaker 1: as we said earlier, is literally dehumanizes people and tells
Speaker 1: people to get in line or else. And having been
Speaker 1: a person who is raised in a get in line
Speaker 1: or you're going to hell, I know what that's like.
Speaker 1: And I can't help but think that people can do better,
Speaker 1: even if you want to keep your guide. While I
Speaker 1: might disagree with you and your God, people can do
Speaker 1: better than that. I hope that ultimately people see these
Speaker 1: people for what they are. I appreciate both of you
Speaker 1: for this conversation thought. I thought we enlightened, found some
Speaker 1: good things to talk about, and I look forward to
Speaker 1: having another conversation, well except maybe without Jonathan, but