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<v Speaker 1>Get value. You can't argue with at Tesco with their

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<v Speaker 1>amazing club card prices. Serve up something special with our

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<v Speaker 1>finest meal deal for two starring one main, two sides

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<v Speaker 1>and dessert for only sixteen euro like succulent board, be

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<v Speaker 1>approved virus shinned to strip loin steaks with peppercorn butter

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<v Speaker 1>or delicious iris chicken Parmesana served with creamy potato gretam

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<v Speaker 1>and our mix of rainbow root vegetables and enjoy Goozillionaire

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<v Speaker 1>or Soldier caramel cheesecake. Can't argue with that shop in

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<v Speaker 1>store or online Tesco. Every little helps available the most

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<v Speaker 1>doores prices, very inn express.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh hey, it's that little wooly caterpillar you just picked

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<v Speaker 2>up and moved off the sidewalk. Who's like, hey, thanks

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<v Speaker 2>for looking out for my thick bristly behind. Sorry ipe

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<v Speaker 2>Alli Ward back with the most stupid questions ever packed

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<v Speaker 2>into a smart episode, because today we are exploring the

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<v Speaker 2>topic of not just ignorance, but willful ignorance, just intentional misinformation, doubt, controversy.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, evil, But before we examine our own just

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<v Speaker 2>lingering stupidity, let's thank the focus at Patreon dot com

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<v Speaker 2>slash Ologies for all their great questions they submitted, and

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<v Speaker 2>for supporting the show for as little as a dollar

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<v Speaker 2>a month. You two can join if you like. Thank

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<v Speaker 2>you to everyone who subscribes and rates, and of course

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<v Speaker 2>reviews to keep the show up in the charts. This

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<v Speaker 2>week's Fresh Pick is from Hoodie Girl five five five,

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<v Speaker 2>who says they listened every night wearing their Ology sweatshirt.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for listening, Thank you for wrapping with Anology study.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone who left reviews, I've read them, I loved them.

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<v Speaker 2>I thank you. Okay, Agnetology, we're going to get into it.

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<v Speaker 2>Agno comes from the Greek for unknown, and according to

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<v Speaker 2>the originator of the word agnetology, it is the study

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<v Speaker 2>of ignorance and it seeks to answer why we don't

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<v Speaker 2>know what we don't know. And the person who coined

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<v Speaker 2>the phrase, I'm sure you're like, was it a long

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<v Speaker 2>dead philosopher, Was it a quippie war nurse? Was it

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<v Speaker 2>a child wise beyond her years? Nope, it's our guest today,

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<v Speaker 2>that is correct. The biggest cheese in the agnetology world

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<v Speaker 2>is here to talk to you, and he edited the

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<v Speaker 2>book Agnetology, The Making and Unmaking of ignorance, and approximately

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<v Speaker 2>ten million of you have tweeted and emailed me begging

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<v Speaker 2>to have him on. He's been on my list for years,

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<v Speaker 2>so this was a huge get to have him sit

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<v Speaker 2>down during a pandemic and chat via computer. He got

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<v Speaker 2>his bachelor's degree in biology and then went to Harvard

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<v Speaker 2>University to get his master's and his PhD in the

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<v Speaker 2>history of science. He is now a professor at Stanford

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<v Speaker 2>University teaching the history of science. And I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>warn you up top if you do not enjoy political

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<v Speaker 2>discourse or scientific facts versus religious mythology, or how industry

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<v Speaker 2>favors profits over health, or the topic of equity for

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<v Speaker 2>marginalized groups, this episode may not be for you, or

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<v Speaker 2>rather it might be perfect for you. We're living a

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<v Speaker 2>very uncomfortable, very polarized, scary times in so many ways.

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<v Speaker 2>People are screaming at each other about masks in Costco

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<v Speaker 2>and it pains me to see the divides because I

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<v Speaker 2>feel like there's so much a place psychologically underneath these

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes violent differences of opinion. So we get into all

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<v Speaker 2>of that, and I was very curious and excited to

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<v Speaker 2>talk it out with someone who studies ignorance and the

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<v Speaker 2>comfort of ignorance for a living agnetologist doctor Robert doctor.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone has told me I need to hunt you down

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about what you study, and you are, technically

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<v Speaker 2>speaking an agnetologist.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess so, yeah, that's one of the things I do.

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<v Speaker 3>I do a lot of different things. I'm my title

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<v Speaker 3>as I'm Professor of the History of science at stant University,

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<v Speaker 3>where I'm also a professor by courtesy of pulmonary medicine.

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<v Speaker 3>But I work on a lot of different things, including

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<v Speaker 3>the history of ignorance.

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<v Speaker 2>And you've studied also the history of science. How did

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<v Speaker 2>it dovetail into the history of ignorance? At what point

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<v Speaker 2>did a light bulb go off and you thought, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I want to study that well.

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<v Speaker 3>I was always interested in puzzles and mysteries and illusions,

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<v Speaker 3>even from being a kid. I remember in high school

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<v Speaker 3>trying to figure out the moon illusion. Why does the

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<v Speaker 3>moon appear large on the horizon? And I basically I

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<v Speaker 3>think figured it out. It's you know, we live in

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<v Speaker 3>a low dome cosmology where the sky we figure is

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<v Speaker 3>about two or three miles high and the horizon is

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<v Speaker 3>about ten or twenty miles high, so it makes sense

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<v Speaker 3>that if something appears the same above you and on

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<v Speaker 3>the horizon, it will actually in effect create an illusion

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<v Speaker 3>of being much larger on the horizon. So that's kind

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<v Speaker 3>of the popular cosmology we live in, because if a

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<v Speaker 3>bird is overhead, it's closer. If it's on the horizon,

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<v Speaker 3>it's farther, and we normalize that and that creates the

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<v Speaker 3>moon illusion. So I was always interested in puzzles and

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<v Speaker 3>Martin Gardner type of mysteries.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh and for more on those moon illusions see the

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<v Speaker 2>Selenology episode with rock Hell Nuno. Also side note, Martin

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<v Speaker 2>Gardner was a popular and beloved mathematics columnist. Yeah, he

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<v Speaker 2>made math cool. And he was a founder of the

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<v Speaker 2>skeptics movement, starting way back with his early nineteen fifties

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<v Speaker 2>book Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science. So

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<v Speaker 2>this guy was the original MythBuster, the founder of the

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<v Speaker 2>debunking of flim flammery.

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<v Speaker 3>And I remember noticing learning things that I thought were

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<v Speaker 3>true that turned out not to be true. I remember

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<v Speaker 3>as a kid thinking that we would eat chicken hearts.

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<v Speaker 3>I grew up in South Texas and we would eat

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<v Speaker 3>chicken hearts, So I thought my heart was the size

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<v Speaker 3>of a chicken heart. Still, when I think of my heart,

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<v Speaker 3>I kind of think of like a little tiny chicken heart.

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<v Speaker 3>And I remember thinking that every country was the same

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<v Speaker 3>size and the same shape, and that I remember puzzling,

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<v Speaker 3>how can it be that a refrigerator is hot at

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<v Speaker 3>the back and that it's the heat at the back

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<v Speaker 3>that makes the cold in the front.

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<v Speaker 2>One day, we're going to figure this out in a

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<v Speaker 2>thermotechnology episode for y'all. I promise that day is not today.

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<v Speaker 3>You know. So I was a curious child, and when

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<v Speaker 3>I went off to graduate school after majoring in biology

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<v Speaker 3>and chemistry, I didn't know what I wanted to do.

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<v Speaker 3>And I started noticing that basically all what I was

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<v Speaker 3>supposed to learn was all of this great science Darwin

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<v Speaker 3>and Einstein and the double helix. And I thought, you know, well,

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<v Speaker 3>what about you know, the things people don't know? And

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<v Speaker 3>what about all the people who don't believe in evolution

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<v Speaker 3>and don't understand cosmology? What about them? And that was

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<v Speaker 3>uninteresting to my Harvard professors, and so I thought, you know, hey,

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<v Speaker 3>wait a minute, a lot of people don't believe evolution.

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<v Speaker 3>Why don't we study that? Yeah? You know, and so

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<v Speaker 3>that's kind of one of the things that got me

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<v Speaker 3>going on ignorance And.

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<v Speaker 2>What about the word itself agnetology? Where did that come from?

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<v Speaker 3>I started. I got involved with some radical science groups

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<v Speaker 3>at Harvard University, where I was studying with Stephen J. Gould.

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<v Speaker 2>Stephen J. Gould side note, was known as someone who

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<v Speaker 2>challenged the scientific theories he found to be rooted in racism,

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<v Speaker 2>among studying a lot of other things. So this work

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<v Speaker 2>toward dismantling misinformation goes way back.

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<v Speaker 3>And we were studying things like how the chemical industry

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<v Speaker 3>lies about chemicals, and how the tobacco industry lies about cigarettes,

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<v Speaker 3>and the sugar industry as its own set of deceptions.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I was saying, you know, you know, this

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<v Speaker 3>is kind of a big deal. You know, Harvard was

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<v Speaker 3>taking all this money from the sugar industry and creating ignorance,

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<v Speaker 3>and I could see it around me, and I said,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, we need a word for the creation of ignorance.

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<v Speaker 3>There's something called epistemology, which is this study of knowledge,

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<v Speaker 3>how we know what we know. What are the methods, empiricism, rationalism,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, the sources of knowledge that was heavily studied,

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<v Speaker 3>and what I noticed is everyone was ignoring ignorance.

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<v Speaker 2>He says this was salient to him because he comes

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<v Speaker 2>from the Deep South and his beliefs didn't match those

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<v Speaker 2>of a lot of his relatives.

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<v Speaker 3>Again, it was sort of like, what about them, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>and what about these big corporations lying about tobacco or

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<v Speaker 3>lying about chemicals? And so I said, well, we need

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<v Speaker 3>a word. And so this was in the early nineteen nineties.

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<v Speaker 3>I was writing a book on cancer. I'd already written

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<v Speaker 3>a book on Nazi medicine, because that's another thing I

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<v Speaker 3>write about Nazi science. But I was writing a book

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<v Speaker 3>on what causes cancer, and I needed a word for

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<v Speaker 3>all of these efforts to create ignorance. And so I

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<v Speaker 3>asked a linguist friend of mine, a brilliant linguist by

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<v Speaker 3>the name of Ian Bole, and he came up with agnatology.

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<v Speaker 3>And originally we spelled it differently. It was agna and agnatology,

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<v Speaker 3>and we got protests from the people who studied jawless fish,

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<v Speaker 3>which is agnathology, and so I changed it to agno.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's a cognate with, you know, agnostic and agnostic

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<v Speaker 3>and that sort of thing. So that was sort of

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<v Speaker 3>how it came up. I needed a word to described

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<v Speaker 3>the deliberate production of ignorance, the kind of things we

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<v Speaker 3>now associate with climate denial or fear of vaccines or

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<v Speaker 3>you know, the denial of the HIV eediology of AIDS,

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<v Speaker 3>things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>And what is the difference between creating willful ignorance and propaganda?

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<v Speaker 2>Is there a difference, or as propaganda just another word

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<v Speaker 2>for it.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, they are slightly different. Both involved deception, but not

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<v Speaker 3>necessariarily and not in every case. For example, I think

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<v Speaker 3>the Nazis really believed their own propaganda. In other words,

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<v Speaker 3>propaganda is kind of like an extreme word for education,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's bad. If it's bad education, it's good. If

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<v Speaker 3>it's good education, it rear least used to be. And

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<v Speaker 3>so you can believe your own propaganda. But agnetology is

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<v Speaker 3>maybe a little more subtle. Because the tobacco industry they

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<v Speaker 3>knew that cigarettes caused cancer, and their whole goal was

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<v Speaker 3>to create ignorance, to stave off people learning the truth

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<v Speaker 3>by creating doubt, by throwing the smoke screen, by throwing

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<v Speaker 3>sand in the gears.

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<v Speaker 4>Playing tag with the waves a refreshing way to take

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<v Speaker 4>a walk at the beach. How can you add to

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<v Speaker 4>it with a mental cigarette.

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<v Speaker 3>And they were able to instrumentalize science by doing that.

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<v Speaker 3>So by funding genetics, by funding the study of viruses,

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<v Speaker 3>they created all these blind alleys and false ideologies for disease.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's a much more diabolical thing. Propaganda I think

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<v Speaker 3>of as more ham handed. It's just brainwashing really, Whereas

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<v Speaker 3>the tobacco industry was much more clever in creating out

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<v Speaker 3>by emphasizing uncertainty, and they become really engines of uncertainty

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<v Speaker 3>by saying, there's two sides to every question.

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<v Speaker 4>There are two sides to a story.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, there's so they set up the whole Tobacco

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<v Speaker 3>Institute to promote these non tobacco causes of cancer. It's

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<v Speaker 3>a kind of giant misdirection campaign, and that's much more

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<v Speaker 3>subtle than just the you know, browbeating of propaganda.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, my mom told me a story that when she

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<v Speaker 2>was trying to loose some weight after her first baby

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<v Speaker 2>in the early seventies, that her obstrician recommended taking of smoking.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, that's I'm so glad you brought that up,

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<v Speaker 3>because until the nineteen eighties, doctors were more likely to

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<v Speaker 3>recommend that pregnant women's smoke than to recommend against it. Ah,

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<v Speaker 3>it was the It was called the smaller babies theory,

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<v Speaker 3>and the tobacco industry ran with it. They funded the

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<v Speaker 3>people pushing for this theory. The theory was that yes,

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<v Speaker 3>it makes a smaller baby if you smoke, but they're

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<v Speaker 3>just as healthy and it's more pleasant to just have

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<v Speaker 3>this nice small baby. And so I've talked to several

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<v Speaker 3>women whose doctors told them to take up smoking during pregnancy. Again,

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<v Speaker 3>that was part of that whole you know, the sunny

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<v Speaker 3>side of nicotine that was pushed by the tobacco industry.

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<v Speaker 2>Just a quick side note. In nineteen thirty seven, Philip Morris,

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<v Speaker 2>tobacco giant, ran an ad in a Saturday Evening post

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<v Speaker 2>depicting a child bell hop offering up a silver platter

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<v Speaker 2>of cigarettes with the information when smokers change, to Philip Morris,

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<v Speaker 2>every case of irritation of the nose and throat caused

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<v Speaker 2>by smoking cleared completely or definitely improved. Then there are

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<v Speaker 2>TV gems too.

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<v Speaker 4>Time out for many men of medicine usually means just

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<v Speaker 4>long enough to enjoy a cigarette.

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<v Speaker 2>So as an agnetologist, he clearly covers smoking, but His

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<v Speaker 2>book also includes chapters on military operations and c literal orgasms,

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<v Speaker 2>issues with indigenous paleontology, racial ignorance and injustice, and of

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<v Speaker 2>course commerce. What are some of the other historical, especially

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<v Speaker 2>in America, campaigns of doubt and ignorance that have kind

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<v Speaker 2>of been waged on our collective intelligence.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, there's so many in Washington, d c. There's fifteen

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<v Speaker 3>hundred trade associations, you know, the Beer Institute, the Sugar Institute,

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<v Speaker 3>the Methyl beautle Ether Task Force, Salt Institute. Basically, every

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<v Speaker 3>product that might cause harm has an institute or a

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<v Speaker 3>trade association designed to diminish that harm or to cast

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<v Speaker 3>out on that harm. So there are basically every thing

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<v Speaker 3>that causes harm, whether it be asbestos or food dies

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<v Speaker 3>or Coca cola through the Beverage Council or whatever it's called,

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<v Speaker 3>there are these organizations whose job it is to rescue products.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, some of the more dramatic ones are

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<v Speaker 3>things like the Lead Institute, which years ago, going back,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, into the twenties, thirties, forties, they would promote

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<v Speaker 3>lead and just you know, call cast doubts on the

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<v Speaker 3>hazards of lead, and the Asbestos Information Association did the

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<v Speaker 3>same thing. The Calorie Control Council. Coca Cola was funding

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<v Speaker 3>some of these things, trying to rescue the reputation of sugar,

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<v Speaker 3>and these things often were interrelated. So the Sugar Research

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<v Speaker 3>Foundation president in the early nineteen fifties actually goes to

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<v Speaker 3>work for the tobacco industry, saying that he could use

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<v Speaker 3>the same techniques that they'd use to rescue the reputation

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<v Speaker 3>of sugar to rescue the safety of tobacco. So there's

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<v Speaker 3>an interlocking. There are even trade associations of trade associations,

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<v Speaker 3>see their whole buildings. I remember one, I think it

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<v Speaker 3>was in Atlanta, where there's a whole building full of

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<v Speaker 3>these trade associations and they share tricks, and it's a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit like that great scene and thank You for Smoking,

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<v Speaker 3>where there's the gun lobby and what is it sugar

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<v Speaker 3>or tobaccos. We call ourselves the mod Squad, mod merchants

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<v Speaker 3>of death. We're lobbyists for the tobacco, alcohol, and firearms industries.

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<v Speaker 3>How many alcohol related that's a year, well a thousand,

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<v Speaker 3>that's what two hundred and seventy a day tragedy. So

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<v Speaker 3>these groups sometimes even work together as engines of uncertainty,

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<v Speaker 3>engines of ignorance, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Does that change for you? I imagine how you just

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<v Speaker 2>live your day to day life. Do you kind of

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<v Speaker 2>see things with like an infrared vision that maybe other

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<v Speaker 2>people don't like when you walk down the soda aisle

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<v Speaker 2>in your store, or see flashes on social media or

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<v Speaker 2>the news.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, sure, yeah, you always want to know who's funding it.

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<v Speaker 3>I remember I had an ant who worked for I

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<v Speaker 3>think it was some kind of dairy council or chicken

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<v Speaker 3>counsel herself, even in my own family, and there was

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<v Speaker 3>an issue on the ballot about whether to require certain

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<v Speaker 3>minimum square footage for chickens, you know, And I remember

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<v Speaker 3>her raising this to her and she said, oh, chickens

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<v Speaker 3>hate to run free, you know, they'll just peck themselves

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<v Speaker 3>to death. And so she had kind of been bought in,

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<v Speaker 3>had sort of bought into this mythology of you know,

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<v Speaker 3>chickens actually like their confinement. So I see it all

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<v Speaker 3>the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. See the oft sided twenty fifteen study put out

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<v Speaker 2>by the Coalition for Sustainable Egg Supply. They're like justice, man,

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<v Speaker 2>These chickens love cages the side of its shoe box.

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<v Speaker 2>It's cozy as hell, man, actually bad news. Cage Free

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<v Speaker 2>hens do not typically spend their days roaming rolling green hills.

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<v Speaker 2>Though they're not out there chasing grasshoppers, singing Joni Mitchell

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<v Speaker 2>songs into the Golden horizon. Cage free just means that

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<v Speaker 2>they kind of hang out in a big warehouse, pooping

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<v Speaker 2>on each other. Forgive me of robbing anyone of that

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<v Speaker 2>willful ignorance. I had cage free eggs for burgmos. And

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<v Speaker 2>what do you think the difference is between just straight

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<v Speaker 2>up ignorance of not being exposed to something versus willful

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<v Speaker 2>ignorance when you maybe have an inkling that you perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>could be wrong about something, but you just don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to believe it. Where's where does denial fit into that?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh well, yeah, denial is key. There's all kinds of ignorance.

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<v Speaker 3>There's there's native what I call native ignorance. So we

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<v Speaker 3>all start off, you know, as embryos, we're ignorant, right,

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<v Speaker 3>we have to come Each one of us comes into

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<v Speaker 3>the world innocent and not knowing everything. We know we

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<v Speaker 3>have to learn, and so all of us have a

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<v Speaker 3>kind of innocent ignorance and then our very lives as

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<v Speaker 3>as creatures, you know, it has a lot to do

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<v Speaker 3>with evolution, because we evolved as predators. We have the

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<v Speaker 3>forward looking eyes of the predator, which means we are

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<v Speaker 3>highly focused. And what highly focused means we ignore almost everything,

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<v Speaker 3>So we have the focus of the predator and not

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<v Speaker 3>the eternal watchfulness of prey. A horse sees three sixty,

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<v Speaker 3>but nothing in particular. They're out there on the watch

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<v Speaker 3>for everything, but they don't focus on any one thing,

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<v Speaker 3>and the biology of that is, you know, deep in

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<v Speaker 3>our neural circuits.

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<v Speaker 2>At this moment, I felt embarrassed for Robert because he

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<v Speaker 2>clearly went one hundred and eighty degrees, because you know

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<v Speaker 2>how people will say she changed her mind and did

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<v Speaker 2>him three sixty, but you're like, well, technically that just

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<v Speaker 2>means that they came full circle. I think you mean

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<v Speaker 2>one eighty. And I looked it up and it read

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<v Speaker 2>horses have a range of vision of about three hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and fifty degrees what so he was totally right. Horses

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<v Speaker 2>can see almost everything around them. I was ignorant of this.

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<v Speaker 2>They could pretty much see everything but their own butts. Also,

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<v Speaker 2>their I anatomy involves something called a nervous tunic, which

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<v Speaker 2>sounds like something I would wear in a nightmare of

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<v Speaker 2>me giving a ted talk. Anyway, human eyesight is more

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<v Speaker 2>literally straightforward.

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<v Speaker 3>We have a phobia which concentrates our perception and that's

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<v Speaker 3>very different from a prey like a deer, and so

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<v Speaker 3>even in our biology, it means that we have this

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<v Speaker 3>intensive focus and we have to ignore everything. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>if you think about it, if you saw everything at once,

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<v Speaker 3>you could see nothing, or if you remembered everything you've

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<v Speaker 3>ever known, you would also know nothing. So a big

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<v Speaker 3>part of learning is forgetting. A big part of focus

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<v Speaker 3>is in attention. You know, you can't focus without defocusing

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<v Speaker 3>at the very same time on most things that are

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<v Speaker 3>around you. So that's another as specti bagnetology is actually

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<v Speaker 3>looking at the creation of ignorance, even in the in

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<v Speaker 3>the non human animal world. So the reason that deer

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<v Speaker 3>have white bellies is that's how they create themselves as

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<v Speaker 3>a non object. All objects in the world have a

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<v Speaker 3>shadow on the bottom, and if you're prey, you create

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<v Speaker 3>a white underbelly to dissolve yourself as an object into

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<v Speaker 3>the surrounding. So that's a form of ignorance creation or

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<v Speaker 3>creating the the invisibility or camouflage, and many many animals

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<v Speaker 3>do that. So as long as there's been predation, there's

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<v Speaker 3>been camouflage, and that's a kind of way of making

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<v Speaker 3>yourself invisible.

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<v Speaker 2>M So next time you see a deer or a

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<v Speaker 2>frog or a lizard, just feel free to say that's

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<v Speaker 2>called countershading. And then if you want, you can high

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<v Speaker 2>five yourself. And what about what is say, happening on

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<v Speaker 2>aationwide level the last few years in particular, do you

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<v Speaker 2>have to use maps at all to study higher levels

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<v Speaker 2>maybe of willful ignorance? Or how do you how do

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<v Speaker 2>you parse out who is maybe more susceptible to believing

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<v Speaker 2>certain things?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, it's it's true. There's a there's a geography

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<v Speaker 3>of ignorance. So while it's true that basically everything that

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<v Speaker 3>has been known has been forgotten, it's also true that

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<v Speaker 3>many of the things that have been forgotten are known

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<v Speaker 3>to some people. And in a way, that's what the

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<v Speaker 3>whole field of history is is to recover lost lost knowledge.

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<v Speaker 3>But education is very selective, right, people are well educated,

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<v Speaker 3>they're poorly educated. There's a big geography of knowledge, and

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<v Speaker 3>humorous deal with this very well. I remember Jay Leno,

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<v Speaker 3>the comedian, used to do what he called jaywalking, and

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<v Speaker 3>he would ask people how many moons does the Earth have?

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<v Speaker 3>What is our galaxy? Call I am it's also a

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<v Speaker 3>candy bar. I mean, it was kind of one of

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<v Speaker 3>those who's buried in Grant's tomb kind of questions. But

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of people don't know a lot of things.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's one of the things I actually do in

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<v Speaker 3>my classes is I do a kind of what I

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<v Speaker 3>call an agnetology survey, where I, you know, ask people

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<v Speaker 3>something else that's really how old is the Earth? And

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<v Speaker 3>it's surprising. I remember when I did this at Harvard

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<v Speaker 3>for the undergraduates about it turned out about fifteen percent

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<v Speaker 3>of the biology majors at Harvard were creationists. I thought

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<v Speaker 3>the world was six thousand years old, So it's In

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<v Speaker 3>other words, I developed what I call agnometrics, the measurement

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<v Speaker 3>of ignorance. And you know, there's lots of techniques for

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<v Speaker 3>studying ignorance and surveys you can do, and yeah, it's cool.

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<v Speaker 2>Agnometrics, by the way, isn't the only great word that

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to learn today? Also consider agnogenesis, which is

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<v Speaker 2>creating doubt for nefarious purposes, or agnometric generators, which are

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<v Speaker 2>the forces generating the doubt. Now, why do some opinions

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<v Speaker 2>seem so regional? What creates factors that are agnogeographical which

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<v Speaker 2>is a word that I just made up. Is there

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<v Speaker 2>something about perhaps the geography of being near a port

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<v Speaker 2>city or a body of water that exposes people to

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<v Speaker 2>say different cultures or different types of people.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that historically has been true. That's why a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of the great early empires and intellectual centers are built

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<v Speaker 3>on maritime commercial centers. You think of the ancient Greeks

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<v Speaker 3>trading amongst the city states, or do you think of

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<v Speaker 3>the river cultures either in Mesoamerica or ancient China trade.

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<v Speaker 3>That's one of the old theories of actually the rise

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<v Speaker 3>of modern science is that it's deeply connected with cosmopolitan trade.

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<v Speaker 3>And so there definitely is something to isolation and the

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<v Speaker 3>monkish life. You might say that's not conducive to intellectual discovery.

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<v Speaker 3>Intellectual discovery involves the kind of mixing of ideas and

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<v Speaker 3>that allows you to see yourself as a as a

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<v Speaker 3>parochial agent.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh ps. A parochial agent is someone who's narrow minded

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<v Speaker 2>or doesn't know a lot, which is a humbling thing

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<v Speaker 2>to have to google, but.

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<v Speaker 3>It certainly is a that's part of the need is

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<v Speaker 3>to you know, to get rid of parochialism, to ask

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<v Speaker 3>why are we the way we are? You know, that's

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<v Speaker 3>kind of the undergraduate experience.

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<v Speaker 2>And what about social media or just the democratization of

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<v Speaker 2>information in the digital age. Do you think that we're

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<v Speaker 2>getting more brainwater more quickly or are we finally getting

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<v Speaker 2>exposure to voices that have been systemically oppressed for a

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<v Speaker 2>long time through large media channels. I'm learning a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more about just how to word things and how to

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<v Speaker 2>include people, But at the same time, it seems like

418
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:17.480
<v Speaker 2>we're distracted by stupid stuff.

419
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:20.359
<v Speaker 3>No, for sure, I think we live in the golden

420
00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:25.960
<v Speaker 3>age of ignorance. Ignorance spreads at the speed of light now,

421
00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:31.480
<v Speaker 3>and with the rise of conspiracy theories, with the rise

422
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:37.200
<v Speaker 3>of denial campaigns, with the siloing of people into reinforcing

423
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.200
<v Speaker 3>like communities through Facebook or whatever, it's easy to find

424
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:48.400
<v Speaker 3>self reinforcing bubble worlds, and that's a huge problem.

425
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:48.559
<v Speaker 4>Now.

426
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:52.599
<v Speaker 3>There's also the kind of the flattening of data and source,

427
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:58.079
<v Speaker 3>the sheer flatness of an iPhone. If you're getting information

428
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:03.480
<v Speaker 3>off that or a laptop, it doesn't discriminate by quality,

429
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:07.799
<v Speaker 3>and so that democratization has also been a kind of

430
00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:11.960
<v Speaker 3>a dumbing down. I think a lot of media and

431
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.839
<v Speaker 3>it's very easy to circulate. If everyone can pop off

432
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.720
<v Speaker 3>anything they want on Twitter and that's all you read,

433
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:20.759
<v Speaker 3>there's no quality control there. So that is a big.

434
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:25.119
<v Speaker 2>Problem and I always think about you know, even when

435
00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:27.839
<v Speaker 2>I was growing up, I grew up in near San Francisco,

436
00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:29.960
<v Speaker 2>and everyone had to copy the chronicle, and that's where

437
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:31.599
<v Speaker 2>they got their news. You woke up in the morning,

438
00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:33.279
<v Speaker 2>you read it when it was delivered, it during in

439
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:36.799
<v Speaker 2>the morning, whenever. And granted a lot of voices were

440
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.480
<v Speaker 2>probably stifled by not getting through to the press, but

441
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:44.759
<v Speaker 2>at the same time you probably had less disparate sources

442
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:47.359
<v Speaker 2>of information and maybe was there more collective trust.

443
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:53.960
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, certainly in the pre Watergate era was more

444
00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:57.759
<v Speaker 3>collective trust and all kinds of institutions.

445
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:01.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh, in the Watergate era case you're like, was in

446
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:04.920
<v Speaker 2>the mid nineteen seventies. So all you youngins who were

447
00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:08.680
<v Speaker 2>born after the mid nineteen seventies, which technically is me

448
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:11.400
<v Speaker 2>FYI very young and cool.

449
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:16.839
<v Speaker 3>But you know, it's it's also another whole thing I

450
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:20.160
<v Speaker 3>look at is virtuous ignorance so not all ignorance is bad.

451
00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:23.200
<v Speaker 3>That's another one of our myths. In fact, many of

452
00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:27.000
<v Speaker 3>our forms of ignorance. You have to have the whole

453
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:29.920
<v Speaker 3>right to privacy, is a form of ignorance that you

454
00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:32.839
<v Speaker 3>don't want other people to know everything about you your

455
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:37.200
<v Speaker 3>medical records or personal life or whatever. So we create

456
00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:39.920
<v Speaker 3>ignorance about things all the time in order just to

457
00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:44.200
<v Speaker 3>have a right to privacy. The same thing with all

458
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:50.480
<v Speaker 3>kinds of dangerous knowledge. Right, no science magazine will publish,

459
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:55.599
<v Speaker 3>you know, a recipe book on how to make aids airborne. Right,

460
00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:59.240
<v Speaker 3>I mean there's all kinds of dangerous things that should

461
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:03.119
<v Speaker 3>not be known. And uh, there are all kinds of

462
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:07.359
<v Speaker 3>institutions that require ignorance. So juries must be ignorant of

463
00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:10.880
<v Speaker 3>the particulars of a of a case before they go in,

464
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.640
<v Speaker 3>or or there's medical confidentiality. There's all kinds of virtuous ignorance.

465
00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:20.119
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, there's there's a mix in how things circulate.

466
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:25.519
<v Speaker 3>And the flatness is a big, big concern I have.

467
00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:28.640
<v Speaker 3>But it's also important to realize, you we can it's

468
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:33.880
<v Speaker 3>easy to be a wash in information and as easily

469
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:36.160
<v Speaker 3>to be a wash and misinformation.

470
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:42.680
<v Speaker 2>And how do we know if we're ignorant or not.

471
00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:45.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I understand people say ignorance is blissed. I

472
00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:47.319
<v Speaker 2>don't know how you feel about that. But how do

473
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:51.599
<v Speaker 2>we know if we're the dummies who are misbelieving things.

474
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:55.680
<v Speaker 3>Well, for one thing, all of us are profoundly ignorant.

475
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.079
<v Speaker 3>You know. One of the things I work on is gemstones.

476
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:02.960
<v Speaker 3>You had an interesting episode on gemology, and that's one

477
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:04.920
<v Speaker 3>of the things I do, is I cut in polished stones.

478
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.440
<v Speaker 3>And what I fantasize about are all the gemstones on

479
00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:11.759
<v Speaker 3>other planets. I call them exo agots, you know, and

480
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:14.240
<v Speaker 3>we'll never know about that, right, I mean, think of

481
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:18.599
<v Speaker 3>the infinity of beautiful gemstones on other planets. So each

482
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:20.839
<v Speaker 3>of us is profoundly ignorant.

483
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:21.720
<v Speaker 2>You know.

484
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.559
<v Speaker 3>We walk through a tiny slice of life, and you

485
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.559
<v Speaker 3>know that's you know, Socratic wisdom is knowing the limits

486
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:33.480
<v Speaker 3>of what you know. So all we can do is,

487
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:38.640
<v Speaker 3>you know, scrape together a few things and hopefully those

488
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:39.640
<v Speaker 3>turn out to be true.

489
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:45.000
<v Speaker 2>Just a side note disclaimer. That Gemology episode was one

490
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:47.960
<v Speaker 2>of the first ever recorded, and it's a wild ride

491
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:51.920
<v Speaker 2>not just through minerals and rocks, but also exploring the

492
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:55.480
<v Speaker 2>gemologists' faith in crystal powers, which I discuss from a

493
00:30:55.559 --> 00:31:00.519
<v Speaker 2>neuroscience perspective. The mechanisms of the placebo effect are very

494
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:04.279
<v Speaker 2>thrilling and interesting. So does having a point to gem

495
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:07.039
<v Speaker 2>in your bra cause you to alter your decisions throughout

496
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:09.759
<v Speaker 2>the day. Feel free to run the experiment yourself. Now,

497
00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:14.160
<v Speaker 2>let's move on from my bra to the apocalypse climate change.

498
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:18.759
<v Speaker 2>So the top contributors worldwide to carbon emissions China and

499
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:22.640
<v Speaker 2>the US. So while many of us in industrialized nations

500
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:25.880
<v Speaker 2>are wringing our hands every day looking at climate data

501
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:29.559
<v Speaker 2>as a whole, there's actually a lot of shrugs. According

502
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:32.759
<v Speaker 2>to some gallop data, which is now admittedly ten years old,

503
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.079
<v Speaker 2>residents of the US and China are less worried about

504
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:40.759
<v Speaker 2>climate change and less likely to agree with do you

505
00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:44.440
<v Speaker 2>think rising temperatures are a result of human activities? Less

506
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.519
<v Speaker 2>likely to agree In the nations with the biggest carbon

507
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:51.200
<v Speaker 2>emissions Latin America, European countries, they're like, hell yeah. But

508
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:54.640
<v Speaker 2>the Middle East is also like probably not because of humans. So,

509
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:58.640
<v Speaker 2>as you'll hear in my ignorant question coming up, I

510
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:01.640
<v Speaker 2>thought the US was more vocal and concerned, but no,

511
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:05.279
<v Speaker 2>oh no, we're not. It's just my little bubble because

512
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:09.240
<v Speaker 2>there we tend to have more resources but are the

513
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:12.920
<v Speaker 2>most maybe vocal in terms of combat and climate change,

514
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.119
<v Speaker 2>but we're the biggest contributors. How does anyone kind of

515
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:17.799
<v Speaker 2>grapple with that?

516
00:32:18.759 --> 00:32:24.000
<v Speaker 3>Well, both those things are true in a way, we

517
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:27.599
<v Speaker 3>diagnosed the problem earlier than a lot of people because

518
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:33.799
<v Speaker 3>we're the ones making the problem, right, And it's exactly

519
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.960
<v Speaker 3>true that you say we're the biggest culprits and we're

520
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:41.480
<v Speaker 3>going to have to lead out of the mess that

521
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:44.359
<v Speaker 3>we've created. Now. Fortunately, you know, we do have a

522
00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:47.640
<v Speaker 3>lot of critiques and tools that we can use to

523
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:50.160
<v Speaker 3>try to undo some of the ignorance the damage that's

524
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:53.559
<v Speaker 3>been done. But again, that's why I'm so interested in

525
00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:56.279
<v Speaker 3>a lot of other people are interested in climate agnetology,

526
00:32:56.359 --> 00:33:02.000
<v Speaker 3>because there are these dedicated bodies like the American Petroleum Institute,

527
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:07.640
<v Speaker 3>or these various fronts of oil producers whose job is

528
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:14.240
<v Speaker 3>dedicated to continuing the carbon world. And so that's what

529
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:17.240
<v Speaker 3>we've really got to expose and fight again. So it's

530
00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:21.400
<v Speaker 3>just a big debate in our Senate at Stanford last

531
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:26.000
<v Speaker 3>week about whether to divest from carbon stocks, you know,

532
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:29.319
<v Speaker 3>big oil and so forth. So a lot of institutions

533
00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:31.160
<v Speaker 3>have already done that. Harvard has done that, and a

534
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:34.200
<v Speaker 3>lot of other institutions. So there's going to have to

535
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.960
<v Speaker 3>be a reckoning and a break with this carbon world,

536
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:43.440
<v Speaker 3>and unfortunately things are heading in the wrong direction at present.

537
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:47.839
<v Speaker 2>Most of that comes down to, of course, greed. Now,

538
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:53.039
<v Speaker 2>what about how power is established or maintained through willful

539
00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:57.519
<v Speaker 2>ignorance and hate? And what about racial justice? It always

540
00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:00.440
<v Speaker 2>struck me even as a kid, reading the All Men

541
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:05.519
<v Speaker 2>Are Created Equal, which a left out women entirely and

542
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:11.000
<v Speaker 2>was written by slaveholders. What at what point do you

543
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:15.559
<v Speaker 2>think that this country might start to recognize its own

544
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:19.280
<v Speaker 2>ignorance and racism and correct course.

545
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:22.960
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, that's what's what's been going on for years now,

546
00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:27.320
<v Speaker 3>right is a slow study, you know, one step forward,

547
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:31.400
<v Speaker 3>several steps back sometimes. That was actually yet another prompt

548
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:37.000
<v Speaker 3>for ignetology. As I I I was studying science and

549
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:39.639
<v Speaker 3>wanted to go I thought about going to MIT out

550
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:41.679
<v Speaker 3>of high school, and I looked at it. It was ninety

551
00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:44.800
<v Speaker 3>six percent male, and that wasn't going to go spend

552
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:50.440
<v Speaker 3>my best hormonal years at MIT around you know, ninety

553
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:53.440
<v Speaker 3>six percent guys. And I thought about going there for

554
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:56.880
<v Speaker 3>graduate school again, and it was still ninety two percent male.

555
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.920
<v Speaker 3>So I became aware of that very early. It's how

556
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.800
<v Speaker 3>I became a feminist and involved in feminist critiques of

557
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:07.880
<v Speaker 3>science early on. And I was amazed that no one

558
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:11.880
<v Speaker 3>was researching this, or that this was not a primary

559
00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:14.239
<v Speaker 3>object of study. This was I'm talking about the late

560
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:19.400
<v Speaker 3>nineteen seventies now, and that again was like a gaping hole.

561
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:22.880
<v Speaker 3>Why is no one studying this? Why is there silence

562
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:28.360
<v Speaker 3>around that? The same theory with racial equality and inequality. Again,

563
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:32.840
<v Speaker 3>I came from the Deep South where I remember White's

564
00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:37.360
<v Speaker 3>Only signs in the early nineteen sixties, late nineteen fifties,

565
00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:42.400
<v Speaker 3>and why were people not studying that? And that's why

566
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:45.800
<v Speaker 3>I actually wrote two books on Nazi medicine, looking at

567
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:52.519
<v Speaker 3>how the American racial experience was actually used by Hitler

568
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:55.280
<v Speaker 3>and by the Germans and the Nazi regime to carry

569
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:57.800
<v Speaker 3>out their programs of racial destruction. That there was this

570
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:05.320
<v Speaker 3>bond between America and racialism and the racism of Nazi Germany,

571
00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:08.400
<v Speaker 3>and people hadn't really written on that either, So that

572
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:10.880
<v Speaker 3>was another gaping hole. So we've got a lot of

573
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:15.960
<v Speaker 3>these holes. They have not been properly excavated or filled.

574
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:19.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it seems a little bit. It seems that that

575
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:23.039
<v Speaker 2>is what's happening a bit with police brutality in Black

576
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:24.639
<v Speaker 2>Lives Matter, that's right.

577
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:27.079
<v Speaker 3>Well, And of course one glimmer of hope is that

578
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:28.559
<v Speaker 3>these things are being filmed.

579
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:30.360
<v Speaker 2>You know.

580
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:32.599
<v Speaker 3>That's why body cams are so important, as we can

581
00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:36.880
<v Speaker 3>actually get a record of this, this horror, and that

582
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:40.960
<v Speaker 3>makes it possible to address it. I mean, imagine how

583
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:43.599
<v Speaker 3>difficult it would be to prove something like what we

584
00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:47.719
<v Speaker 3>saw with the George Floyd case thirty years ago, you know,

585
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:51.639
<v Speaker 3>before ubiquitous or so even.

586
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:56.440
<v Speaker 2>Now without video, even with video, you know, so imagine

587
00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:00.679
<v Speaker 2>that without video, right, Yeah, do you get along with

588
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:02.480
<v Speaker 2>all your relatives in this house till or do you

589
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:03.239
<v Speaker 2>just not talking? Yeah?

590
00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:05.199
<v Speaker 3>I get along with them. Yeah, I don't see them

591
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:08.519
<v Speaker 3>a lot, but yeah, I think we know we have

592
00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:13.480
<v Speaker 3>different different points of view. But it is interesting because

593
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:16.599
<v Speaker 3>my mom, she didn't even know that her dad was

594
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:18.920
<v Speaker 3>in the Ku Klux Klan, and I could sort of

595
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.519
<v Speaker 3>tell by talking with him something like this was going on,

596
00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:24.800
<v Speaker 3>and she was surprised to learn it from me that

597
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:28.239
<v Speaker 3>her own dad had been in the Klan. So some

598
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:32.480
<v Speaker 3>aspects of this get covered up it's getting part of

599
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:35.960
<v Speaker 3>the sort of psychological denial maybe that that you were

600
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:37.039
<v Speaker 3>bringing up earlier.

601
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:41.039
<v Speaker 2>Having studied this, I know that there's a difference between

602
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:48.679
<v Speaker 2>research and diagnosing versus prescription perhaps, but do any studies

603
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:52.400
<v Speaker 2>come up that show what is effective in changing ignorance

604
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:53.719
<v Speaker 2>in our in ourselves?

605
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:57.719
<v Speaker 3>Well, of course, that's what heedagogy is all about. That's

606
00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:01.400
<v Speaker 3>why a lot of educators have become so interested in agnetology,

607
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:04.519
<v Speaker 3>because that's what education is all about. In a way,

608
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:09.679
<v Speaker 3>It's about overcoming overcoming ignorance. You know, there's no magic

609
00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:14.360
<v Speaker 3>wand that you can waive. But the thing you can do,

610
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:16.639
<v Speaker 3>I think is, you know, try to get some of

611
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:21.480
<v Speaker 3>the big money out of politics to try to go

612
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:28.239
<v Speaker 3>after these institutions that create ignorance. And one of the

613
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:31.159
<v Speaker 3>things I do I testify against the tobacco industry as

614
00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:32.960
<v Speaker 3>an expert witness. And that's one of the things we

615
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:36.440
<v Speaker 3>always talk about is how the hundreds and hundreds of

616
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:41.119
<v Speaker 3>millions of dollars were spent to create this fantasy world

617
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:44.159
<v Speaker 3>of what was called alternative causation or the sunny side

618
00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:49.800
<v Speaker 3>of nicotine, and so exposing that how that worked, diagnosing

619
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:51.760
<v Speaker 3>it and showing how it went to very high levels

620
00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:54.599
<v Speaker 3>because what I found is that twenty five Nobel laureates

621
00:38:55.320 --> 00:39:00.480
<v Speaker 3>have taken money from big tobaccos. So the corruption of science,

622
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:02.840
<v Speaker 3>that's one of the main things I'm interested in is

623
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:05.679
<v Speaker 3>how science itself can become corrupted.

624
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:08.079
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or

625
00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:10.159
<v Speaker 4>not they could they didn't stop to think they should.

626
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:13.480
<v Speaker 3>Good science as part of these engines of ignorance to

627
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:18.559
<v Speaker 3>create distractions about wealth. Cancer is all genetic, it's your ancestry,

628
00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:24.119
<v Speaker 3>it's all food dies, it's all you know, anything but cigarette.

629
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:29.280
<v Speaker 3>So once you understand how these powerful institutions work, that

630
00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:32.880
<v Speaker 3>lets you understand you know how they might be dismantled.

631
00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:37.480
<v Speaker 2>And side note, it's easy to look back on horrible

632
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:41.480
<v Speaker 2>ignorance and injustice and lies and say, of course that

633
00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:44.920
<v Speaker 2>was wrong. How could people not know then? How could

634
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:50.559
<v Speaker 2>their intuition or moral compass be so skewed by outside

635
00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:55.960
<v Speaker 2>sources from cigarette commercials to misogyny and more. Now what

636
00:39:56.039 --> 00:40:00.840
<v Speaker 2>will future generations look back on now with utter mortification?

637
00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:03.639
<v Speaker 2>What would they profess to build a time machine to

638
00:40:03.639 --> 00:40:06.199
<v Speaker 2>come back and fight? How opioids are marketed and have

639
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:09.760
<v Speaker 2>led to an epidemic our daily dependence on oil, how

640
00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:14.719
<v Speaker 2>we vaped on TikTok or America's love affair with cheeseburgers.

641
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:18.559
<v Speaker 3>Well, sure, and that's why you have these ag gag

642
00:40:18.679 --> 00:40:21.840
<v Speaker 3>laws in so many states where you can't even film

643
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:27.639
<v Speaker 3>inside a slaughter house. There's a recognition that if people

644
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:31.960
<v Speaker 3>saw the horror of some of the ways we process animals,

645
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:35.360
<v Speaker 3>that this might give us pause. So there are a

646
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:38.000
<v Speaker 3>lot of things we do in life that are really

647
00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:42.280
<v Speaker 3>made possible by a kind of invisibility, a kind of distancing.

648
00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:45.880
<v Speaker 3>That's something that's important to realize, is that a lot

649
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:49.800
<v Speaker 3>of what we are able to see is only because

650
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:53.719
<v Speaker 3>we are allowed to see it. I remember when I

651
00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:57.079
<v Speaker 3>was at Penn State, we were calling to arrange a

652
00:40:57.159 --> 00:40:59.719
<v Speaker 3>lecture series and I called up and it was like,

653
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.960
<v Speaker 3>this is Department of Undersea Warfare. And this wasn't even

654
00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:06.360
<v Speaker 3>the card in the catalog, the college catalog that we

655
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:09.639
<v Speaker 3>that we had whole section or division on undersea warfare.

656
00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:13.920
<v Speaker 3>And so there are a lot of things that are

657
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:17.519
<v Speaker 3>kept from us. And again that's why I like to

658
00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:21.880
<v Speaker 3>expose secrets. I like whistleblowing. You know, you have to

659
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:24.360
<v Speaker 3>see these things to let the sunshine in.

660
00:41:26.920 --> 00:41:30.039
<v Speaker 2>And I have questions from listeners. Is it okay to

661
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:31.199
<v Speaker 2>pepper you with them?

662
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:31.599
<v Speaker 3>Sure?

663
00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:36.199
<v Speaker 2>So many questions. And before we get to questions, some

664
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:38.400
<v Speaker 2>words from sponsors of the show, who make it possible

665
00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:40.880
<v Speaker 2>to donate to a cause each week. And this week,

666
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:44.079
<v Speaker 2>while researching, I learned of a lecture our guest gave

667
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:49.519
<v Speaker 2>citing some extremely hurtful racist tobacco advertising in an effort

668
00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:53.960
<v Speaker 2>to teach students about how big industries use systemic racism

669
00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:56.239
<v Speaker 2>as a weapon, and he read off the names of

670
00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:58.519
<v Speaker 2>a few of the brands that many people in attendance

671
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:01.440
<v Speaker 2>were deeply hurt to hear aloud, and later released a

672
00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:04.039
<v Speaker 2>statement saying it was in effort to illuminate the wrongness

673
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:06.639
<v Speaker 2>of the messages, saying, quote, my whole career has been

674
00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:11.639
<v Speaker 2>devoted to exposing, analyzing, and condemning racism and white privilege.

675
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:15.199
<v Speaker 2>And I wanted to support the National Black Law Students Association,

676
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:17.599
<v Speaker 2>who spoke out about the incident and educated so many

677
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:20.320
<v Speaker 2>on the pain that words can cause, even in historical

678
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.320
<v Speaker 2>and scholastic contexts. So this week I'm choosing that a

679
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:26.480
<v Speaker 2>donation will be going to them, and I support the

680
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:30.199
<v Speaker 2>shared goal of dismantling systemic racism, and I think organizations

681
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:32.920
<v Speaker 2>who work to keep us all less ignorant, especially when

682
00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:35.960
<v Speaker 2>it comes to intentions versus impact, which is so important.

683
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:40.119
<v Speaker 2>Doctor Pructer also wanted to support Saving Black Lives dot org,

684
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:44.079
<v Speaker 2>which is the African American Tobacco Control Leadership Council which

685
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:46.960
<v Speaker 2>educates the public about tobacco products and their effects on

686
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:50.719
<v Speaker 2>Black American and African immigrant populations. And he's been working

687
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:53.599
<v Speaker 2>closely with them for years. So a donation goes to them,

688
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:56.280
<v Speaker 2>and why not let's do a third donation. This is

689
00:42:56.320 --> 00:42:58.760
<v Speaker 2>an important topic. It's going to go to the public

690
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:02.880
<v Speaker 2>health advocacy. They use the civil justice system to improve

691
00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:06.559
<v Speaker 2>public health by focusing on litigation targeting tobacco industry products

692
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:10.559
<v Speaker 2>and unhealthy foods, and deceptive health marketing maybe jade eggs,

693
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:14.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure, but deceptive gambling practices also all to

694
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:17.760
<v Speaker 2>advance public health and social justice. So a lot of

695
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:21.000
<v Speaker 2>great donations this week, and a lot of ignorance on

696
00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:23.880
<v Speaker 2>all of our parts, But what's important is the willingness

697
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:26.880
<v Speaker 2>to learn. So those donations were made possible by sponsors

698
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:29.880
<v Speaker 2>who may hear about now get value.

699
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:32.239
<v Speaker 1>You can't argue with at TESCO with their amazing club

700
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:35.280
<v Speaker 1>card prices. Serve up something special with our finest meal

701
00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:37.960
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702
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:41.159
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703
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<v Speaker 1>shined a Strip, Looid Steaks with peppercorn butter or Delicious

704
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.280
<v Speaker 1>IRUs Chicken Parmegama served with creamy potato, great arm and

705
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:50.920
<v Speaker 1>our mix of rainbow root vegetables and enjoy Goozillionaire or

706
00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:54.559
<v Speaker 1>Soldier Caramel cheesecake. Can't argue with that shop instore or

707
00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:58.239
<v Speaker 1>online Tesco. Every Little Helps available to most stores, prices

708
00:43:58.320 --> 00:43:58.960
<v Speaker 1>very in express.

709
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:03.320
<v Speaker 2>Okay, now to your questions. Now, the first question is

710
00:44:03.400 --> 00:44:07.000
<v Speaker 2>about willful ignorance and if it's related to the Dunning

711
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:10.760
<v Speaker 2>Krueger effect, in which the less you know, the smarter

712
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:14.400
<v Speaker 2>you think you are. Nicole Hawley, Joe Michello, l wink

713
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:18.960
<v Speaker 2>Ed Mastovek and first time question asker Phyllis wanted to know.

714
00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:23.360
<v Speaker 2>People are very excited at the topic, and some people

715
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:28.320
<v Speaker 2>asked about the Dunning Dunning Kruger effect and whether or

716
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:31.880
<v Speaker 2>not agnetology is related to the Dunning Kirger effect, where

717
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.280
<v Speaker 2>people who maybe think that they're more intelligent than they

718
00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.719
<v Speaker 2>are are ignorant of what they don't know. Do you

719
00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:39.400
<v Speaker 2>use that in research at all?

720
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:42.320
<v Speaker 3>Well, I don't use that specifically, but that's certainly true.

721
00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:45.760
<v Speaker 3>Is there's a kind of I link it also to

722
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:51.199
<v Speaker 3>a kind of myopia of specialization. You know, the more

723
00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:54.320
<v Speaker 3>expertise you often get in science, the more narrow is

724
00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:59.639
<v Speaker 3>your focus, and that becomes a kind of tragedy because

725
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:03.000
<v Speaker 3>it's you don't see the forest for the trees, and

726
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:06.639
<v Speaker 3>I believe that the truth is in the hole and

727
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:08.519
<v Speaker 3>you have to see the big picture. I'm a big

728
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:13.159
<v Speaker 3>fan of what we call big history, and also the

729
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:16.719
<v Speaker 3>unity of what we know with what animals know, as

730
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:21.039
<v Speaker 3>well our unity of biological life in the course of evolution.

731
00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.000
<v Speaker 3>That's one of the things I study also as human origins,

732
00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:27.679
<v Speaker 3>how we became human. A lot of our deep biology

733
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:30.840
<v Speaker 3>is still expressed in our limitations today.

734
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:35.519
<v Speaker 2>Okay, quick question, because I am unwillingly ignorant. What is

735
00:45:35.719 --> 00:45:38.360
<v Speaker 2>big history? Okay? I looked it up, and it's history

736
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:42.719
<v Speaker 2>taught from the Big Bang onward instead of just starting

737
00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:46.480
<v Speaker 2>when us hairy humans meandered on the scene. So big

738
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:49.519
<v Speaker 2>history ends up being kind of multidisciplinary because in order

739
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:52.719
<v Speaker 2>to teach how the planets and the stars formed and

740
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:55.599
<v Speaker 2>the universe expanding. You got to go back and learn

741
00:45:55.639 --> 00:45:58.920
<v Speaker 2>about physics and astrophysics. It's a bit of a hodgepodge

742
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.039
<v Speaker 2>of sciences, which is fun. And for more on that,

743
00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:04.920
<v Speaker 2>you can enjoy the two parter on cosmology with doctor

744
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:08.199
<v Speaker 2>Katie Mack, wherein I get cosmic vertigo, which is a

745
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:10.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of horror at the scale of things. Now, speaking

746
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:15.719
<v Speaker 2>of fear, who asked about fear fueling ignorance? Turns out

747
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:18.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of you. First time question asker Ethan Stoller,

748
00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:22.840
<v Speaker 2>Aaron Maglisik Stutton, Taggart, Megan Walker, Zora Phoenix, Devan Robertson,

749
00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:27.159
<v Speaker 2>Misty Don Bethmanico, Sam Coorea and Greg A few people

750
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:30.679
<v Speaker 2>had a question about whether or not fear plays into ignorance,

751
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and Emily Meridith Lewis is a first time question asker

752
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:37.400
<v Speaker 2>asks how much does vulnerability play into it versus entitlement.

753
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:40.400
<v Speaker 3>Well, that's a great question too. That's why we talk

754
00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:45.840
<v Speaker 3>about homophobia. That's fairly new to talk about ignorance as

755
00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:48.400
<v Speaker 3>a kind of fear, or fear as a kind of

756
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:52.760
<v Speaker 3>ignorance to not know what it really means to say

757
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:59.039
<v Speaker 3>the homosexual, for example, leads to a kind of alien misunderstanding,

758
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:03.280
<v Speaker 3>and that I think is a really important part just

759
00:47:03.559 --> 00:47:08.960
<v Speaker 3>of human relations. Is the distancing of of people from

760
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:16.599
<v Speaker 3>one another allows stereotypes to develop, and stereotyping and blanket ignorances.

761
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.360
<v Speaker 3>It goes back sort of to your point about circulation

762
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:24.239
<v Speaker 3>and travel. Descartes used to say, there's three great principles

763
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:28.119
<v Speaker 3>for science, travel, travel, travel, because really knowing the other

764
00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:32.199
<v Speaker 3>and walking in their shoes. That's why I talk about

765
00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:36.280
<v Speaker 3>the importance of in the history of science of wonder, sympathy,

766
00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:39.960
<v Speaker 3>and critique. You want to wonder like a child, but

767
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:41.760
<v Speaker 3>you also want to have sympathy and you want to

768
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:44.440
<v Speaker 3>have critiques. The sympathy part is you want to walk

769
00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:46.480
<v Speaker 3>in the shoes of the past or in this case,

770
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:49.920
<v Speaker 3>in someone else's experience, to understand them so you don't

771
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:54.400
<v Speaker 3>fear them then, but then you still retain your humanity

772
00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:58.239
<v Speaker 3>in your recognition there is right and wrong, and you

773
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:01.159
<v Speaker 3>can't you are free to critique, want to lose yourself

774
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:04.159
<v Speaker 3>in someone else's shoes, So you want to maintain principles.

775
00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:08.280
<v Speaker 3>So those are three of the principles I operate with. Wonder, sympathy,

776
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:09.119
<v Speaker 3>and critique.

777
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:12.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's beautiful when it comes to the travel travel

778
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:15.400
<v Speaker 2>travel part. What if that causes more of a carbon footprint.

779
00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:20.360
<v Speaker 3>Well, of course, that's that's part of the big problem.

780
00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:22.519
<v Speaker 3>The world of the future is going to be very different.

781
00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:25.159
<v Speaker 3>We're not going to have you biquitous travel, We're not

782
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:29.039
<v Speaker 3>going to have you know, cigarettes being sold, We're not

783
00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:32.400
<v Speaker 3>going to have meat consumption the way we've had it,

784
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:35.639
<v Speaker 3>and hopefully we'll even have a lower population because that's

785
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.639
<v Speaker 3>also part of the problem. So the world of the

786
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:40.639
<v Speaker 3>future is going to have to be very different. We're

787
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:44.320
<v Speaker 3>we're kind of sailing away, as people like to say,

788
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:47.480
<v Speaker 3>running the Book of Genesis backwards, you know, and and

789
00:48:47.559 --> 00:48:51.440
<v Speaker 3>creating this this unholy world, and that's going to have

790
00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:52.119
<v Speaker 3>to change.

791
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:56.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing my part by being infertile. You're welcome. Now,

792
00:48:56.079 --> 00:49:01.920
<v Speaker 2>did anyone ask about the demographics of climate science believers?

793
00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:06.039
<v Speaker 2>Katas around He did, as well as Hannah Johnson. Also

794
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:08.400
<v Speaker 2>as a first time question, Asher asked if there have

795
00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:11.280
<v Speaker 2>been research about the demographics of people who are more

796
00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:16.719
<v Speaker 2>likely to be science deniers, like significant different differences across gender, education, level, income,

797
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:17.199
<v Speaker 2>et cetera.

798
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:22.920
<v Speaker 3>Yes. Well, of course, of course, wealth is power. Power

799
00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:30.000
<v Speaker 3>is wealth, knowledge is power. Wealth helps create knowledge wealth

800
00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:35.400
<v Speaker 3>can also destroy knowledge, but of course there's huge, huge

801
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:40.760
<v Speaker 3>differences in that regard. There an interesting connection with climate

802
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:44.000
<v Speaker 3>science denialism is the whole evangelical problem, because a lot

803
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:48.400
<v Speaker 3>of climate denialists are evangelical Christians who don't want to

804
00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:52.719
<v Speaker 3>confront a world where their God is abandoning them in

805
00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:55.920
<v Speaker 3>a sense or allowing us to follow our own own nest.

806
00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.320
<v Speaker 3>I mean, there's some problems even with the recency of

807
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:00.199
<v Speaker 3>the age of the Earth in that whole view, But

808
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:05.199
<v Speaker 3>there are some progressive evangelical critics of us fouling our net.

809
00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:09.320
<v Speaker 3>And that's why we need to think very important metaphorically

810
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:13.119
<v Speaker 3>about what kinds of metaphors do we use to overcome denialism.

811
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:18.719
<v Speaker 3>Metaphors of the garden, of the steward, of the flock,

812
00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:23.159
<v Speaker 3>and you know, the caring for our own life as

813
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:25.880
<v Speaker 3>for other people. So we're going to have to rethink

814
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:29.840
<v Speaker 3>our metaphors. You know, we can't just get away with

815
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:34.119
<v Speaker 3>polar bears and even the one two three degree threshold problem.

816
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:36.320
<v Speaker 3>That's not good enough. We've got to think much more

817
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:41.000
<v Speaker 3>creatively about how to bond people in the stories we tell,

818
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:43.639
<v Speaker 3>the allegories, the stories we tell about why we need

819
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:47.079
<v Speaker 3>to act differently from how we've acted in the past.

820
00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:49.599
<v Speaker 2>And I did a little bit of research on this,

821
00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:53.559
<v Speaker 2>and it turns out that evangelical Christians that just means

822
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:56.679
<v Speaker 2>Christians who want to spread the good news, and it's

823
00:50:56.800 --> 00:50:59.480
<v Speaker 2>kind of been co opted a little bit to mean

824
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:02.599
<v Speaker 2>the christ wright. But there are a lot of evangelical

825
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:05.880
<v Speaker 2>Christians who do not find that the teachings of Christ

826
00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:09.360
<v Speaker 2>align with certain political parties. Holy Holy with a w

827
00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:12.360
<v Speaker 2>Amy Black is a professor of political science at Wheaton

828
00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:15.639
<v Speaker 2>College and writes a lot about faith and politics. She

829
00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:19.079
<v Speaker 2>wrote in twenty sixteen, because evangelical voters are an important

830
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:22.119
<v Speaker 2>voting bloc, politicians have many incentives to pander to them.

831
00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:25.400
<v Speaker 2>In this time of rapid social change. Church leaders need

832
00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:27.760
<v Speaker 2>to train people in the pews on how to respond,

833
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:31.360
<v Speaker 2>helping them understand and embody the core commitments of the

834
00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Christian faith. Now, what about folks who do not have

835
00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:36.239
<v Speaker 2>faith that the earth is round? A lot of you

836
00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:40.159
<v Speaker 2>asked about flat earthers, including Dee B. Narverson, Mackenzie Campbell,

837
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:44.119
<v Speaker 2>Kate Stomps, Kayley Douglas, Cassidy Williams, science teacher, Karen Blaisdell,

838
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:47.360
<v Speaker 2>another science teacher, and first time question asker Chloe Chambers.

839
00:51:47.480 --> 00:51:51.159
<v Speaker 2>First time question askers Kevin Biemer and Mara Rosenbloom and

840
00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:53.840
<v Speaker 2>Ben Bignell, who says, I drive by a sign for

841
00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:56.559
<v Speaker 2>flat Earth, Canada twice a day, five days a week

842
00:51:56.880 --> 00:52:00.599
<v Speaker 2>and wonder every day why people can believe it is

843
00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:04.599
<v Speaker 2>the road flat. Ben, think about it? Kind of asked

844
00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:08.719
<v Speaker 2>along that line. Without the ability to connect with people digitally,

845
00:52:08.760 --> 00:52:12.119
<v Speaker 2>do you think that there'd be fewer flat earthers, Like,

846
00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:14.400
<v Speaker 2>when did we start believing the Earth was flat?

847
00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:17.679
<v Speaker 3>No, that's actually a great question. One of the favorite

848
00:52:18.599 --> 00:52:22.039
<v Speaker 3>gotchas or corrections historians of science like to make is

849
00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:27.880
<v Speaker 3>actually most people did not think the Earth was flat. Say,

850
00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:31.760
<v Speaker 3>in the Middle Ages, people knew the world was round.

851
00:52:32.440 --> 00:52:36.920
<v Speaker 3>That goes back to antiquity. The actually myth that people

852
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:42.239
<v Speaker 3>used to think the earth was flat really arises in

853
00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:46.239
<v Speaker 3>the nineteenth century in order to basically beat our own

854
00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:48.199
<v Speaker 3>chest and say how much greater we are than the

855
00:52:48.199 --> 00:52:51.559
<v Speaker 3>Middle Ages. There's a whole book about this about how

856
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:54.480
<v Speaker 3>in the eighteen thirties the myth of that people I

857
00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:56.400
<v Speaker 3>used to think the world was flat arose Now obviously,

858
00:52:56.440 --> 00:52:59.639
<v Speaker 3>if you go back far enough, I'm sure most people

859
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:02.360
<v Speaker 3>were flat earthers. But yeah, since we are in a

860
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:07.880
<v Speaker 3>world where misinformation disinformation circulates faster than ever before, I

861
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:12.880
<v Speaker 3>think your questioner is quite right. That's allowing some of

862
00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:16.480
<v Speaker 3>this craziness to flourish, you know, and so there may

863
00:53:16.519 --> 00:53:18.760
<v Speaker 3>be more flat earthers now than there have been in

864
00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:20.760
<v Speaker 3>the last three hundred years.

865
00:53:23.119 --> 00:53:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Just going to toss in real quick. If you want

866
00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:28.360
<v Speaker 2>more info on this, watch the documentary Behind the Curve.

867
00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:32.480
<v Speaker 2>I just saw the trailer for it, and wow, wow wow.

868
00:53:32.760 --> 00:53:35.440
<v Speaker 2>Thank you to patron Nicole Thomas who wrote in quote.

869
00:53:35.480 --> 00:53:37.880
<v Speaker 2>At first I was furious, but after watching that, I

870
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:41.960
<v Speaker 2>understand that people who operate on the fringe beliefs usually

871
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.519
<v Speaker 2>get further marginalized and isolated with their thoughts. And since

872
00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:48.559
<v Speaker 2>no one is engaging them with the correct information and

873
00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:51.000
<v Speaker 2>they've isolated themselves from everyone that has a different set

874
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.960
<v Speaker 2>of beliefs, it's really easy to retreat to the community

875
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:56.880
<v Speaker 2>bubbles that have the same belief set. Thanks for writing in,

876
00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:00.519
<v Speaker 2>Nicole Thomas, good point. Indeed, you know. Francesca Huggins and

877
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:05.719
<v Speaker 2>Toby Krisnik seconded this question. Francesca just asked religion what gives?

878
00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:11.320
<v Speaker 2>And I do wonder you mentioned evangelical Christians. It seems

879
00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:14.000
<v Speaker 2>sometimes that there's a disconnect between the teachings of a

880
00:54:14.039 --> 00:54:19.599
<v Speaker 2>certain religion and the actions of its most extreme promoters

881
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:22.320
<v Speaker 2>of the religion. Where is that disconnect where you're like,

882
00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:25.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't think Christ would do that.

883
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:28.199
<v Speaker 3>That's for sure. I mean, you know, the Sermon on

884
00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:31.000
<v Speaker 3>the Mound is very different from some of the craziness

885
00:54:31.039 --> 00:54:35.360
<v Speaker 3>we hear in Omega Church nowadays. You know, there are

886
00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:40.960
<v Speaker 3>good lessons, good principles in all religions, and there are

887
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:46.039
<v Speaker 3>moral aspects, there's ontological aspects, and so I think part

888
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:50.239
<v Speaker 3>of the problem is they become this commercialization of the churches,

889
00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:55.079
<v Speaker 3>the merger of churches with the Tea party movement, which

890
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:59.320
<v Speaker 3>itself was created by big oil and big tobacco in

891
00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:03.119
<v Speaker 3>order to fight taxation, in fact, fight governmental regulation. So

892
00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:06.760
<v Speaker 3>you have to look at these things politically, in the

893
00:55:06.760 --> 00:55:12.360
<v Speaker 3>political context and see how religions have bonded to these

894
00:55:12.679 --> 00:55:16.000
<v Speaker 3>other powerful institution. And in many parts of the world

895
00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:18.960
<v Speaker 3>you can be three religions. You know, in Japan, you

896
00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:23.719
<v Speaker 3>can be Shintoist and Daoist and Confucian. There's no contradiction there.

897
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:27.800
<v Speaker 3>It's really kind of the for something strange about parts

898
00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:29.639
<v Speaker 3>of the West that we feel we have to be

899
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:35.360
<v Speaker 3>either Jewish or Protestant, or Catholic or Muslim. That either

900
00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:37.880
<v Speaker 3>or is part of the problem. We need to view

901
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:43.039
<v Speaker 3>these things as maybe more like a buffet of practices,

902
00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:48.320
<v Speaker 3>sacred practices, and remember the sacred means that which you value,

903
00:55:48.519 --> 00:55:51.920
<v Speaker 3>you know, that which cannot be touched in some negative way.

904
00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:55.920
<v Speaker 3>And we need, I think, to revisit aspects of the sacred.

905
00:55:56.800 --> 00:55:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you know, you mentioned that kind of really

906
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:04.000
<v Speaker 2>stark dichotomy. And I always feel like everything from the

907
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:06.880
<v Speaker 2>colors to the mascots. Our political parties have become like

908
00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:10.800
<v Speaker 2>opposing sports teams more and more. But do you think

909
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:15.440
<v Speaker 2>that a strong like third party or more political parties

910
00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:19.199
<v Speaker 2>would would help see those kind of gray areas more.

911
00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:22.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that would be because there is something

912
00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:25.400
<v Speaker 3>weird about the binary world we're in where winner takes all.

913
00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:29.480
<v Speaker 3>Some of the European systems I think are better in

914
00:56:29.519 --> 00:56:34.480
<v Speaker 3>the sense of parliamentary representation, you know. So I think

915
00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:36.639
<v Speaker 3>we do have some big problems in how we organize

916
00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:39.280
<v Speaker 3>our binary world, and I think it's getting much worse.

917
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:41.519
<v Speaker 3>So I do worry a lot about that.

918
00:56:41.960 --> 00:56:44.519
<v Speaker 2>And Jessica Kraver asked, is there a good way to

919
00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:46.920
<v Speaker 2>handle talking with someone on a subject like refusal to

920
00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:49.519
<v Speaker 2>wear a mask when any slight mentioned just makes them

921
00:56:49.599 --> 00:56:52.440
<v Speaker 2>very angry and worked up and they are maybe incapable

922
00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:56.000
<v Speaker 2>of hearing reason in times of pandemic and self preservation,

923
00:56:56.679 --> 00:56:59.559
<v Speaker 2>any way to get through to people there's that denial

924
00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:00.800
<v Speaker 2>be just out of fear.

925
00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:03.320
<v Speaker 3>It is odd that something as simple as wearing a

926
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:06.199
<v Speaker 3>mask has become politicized. You know, basically it's something you

927
00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:08.800
<v Speaker 3>just follow the rules, right, I mean just but I

928
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:10.679
<v Speaker 3>think people need to be just a little more chill,

929
00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:15.599
<v Speaker 3>you know, as we say in California, don't harsh my mellow.

930
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:17.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they still call out.

931
00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:17.920
<v Speaker 3>Ye.

932
00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Kelsey's story had a health question and a lot of

933
00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:25.320
<v Speaker 2>people secondedd this. They said, why are people so willing

934
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:28.239
<v Speaker 2>to believe in wellness therapies such as cleanses to remove

935
00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:32.000
<v Speaker 2>toxins from our bodies thanks liver, but so resistant to

936
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:34.159
<v Speaker 2>facts from actual health professionals.

937
00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:40.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's you know, there's a whether what's an idiot

938
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:43.800
<v Speaker 3>born every moment or something? A lot of my agnatology

939
00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:47.079
<v Speaker 3>class I teach both an introduction to agnetology and an

940
00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:51.360
<v Speaker 3>advanced agnatology class. We've had several students do interesting projects

941
00:57:51.360 --> 00:57:54.639
<v Speaker 3>on food supplements and how people will pay hundreds of

942
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:58.880
<v Speaker 3>dollars for basically something which is basically additives without food.

943
00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:03.320
<v Speaker 3>And you know, there's a lot of mythology surrounding what

944
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:06.199
<v Speaker 3>we eat. I'm a big fan of Michael Pollen. You know,

945
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:09.599
<v Speaker 3>eat simply. There's so many mythologies about what we put

946
00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:12.480
<v Speaker 3>in our bodies. I think because we've had so many

947
00:58:12.960 --> 00:58:19.679
<v Speaker 3>powerful trade associations promoting sugar or additives or salt or whatever,

948
00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:23.679
<v Speaker 3>highly packaged processed food. So that's been part of the problem.

949
00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:27.280
<v Speaker 3>Is that trade association problem I mentioned. I mean just

950
00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:31.760
<v Speaker 3>one simple example of that. My granddad. Three of my

951
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:35.599
<v Speaker 3>four grandparents died from smoking. But my dad's dad, he

952
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:38.320
<v Speaker 3>died of a heart attack, and he had smoked two

953
00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:40.559
<v Speaker 3>packs a day and died in his mid fifties. But

954
00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:44.000
<v Speaker 3>the theory promoted by the tobacco industry at that time

955
00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:46.679
<v Speaker 3>was that eggs are what kill you, and so the

956
00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:49.440
<v Speaker 3>family story was always he died of eggs. So I

957
00:58:49.480 --> 00:58:52.239
<v Speaker 3>was always terrified of eggs. And then when I finally

958
00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:55.760
<v Speaker 3>realized by reading the industry's secret documents, the tobacco industry

959
00:58:55.760 --> 00:59:00.599
<v Speaker 3>basically created that theory attacking eggs that in order to

960
00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:04.599
<v Speaker 3>exonerate smoking. Oh my god, so you know we do live.

961
00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:07.800
<v Speaker 3>A wash in mythology is about what.

962
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:12.360
<v Speaker 2>We eat, So so so many patrons ask this next question,

963
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:15.639
<v Speaker 2>almost fifty. It's the one question on literally all of

964
00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:17.400
<v Speaker 2>our minds. So I'm just gonna read the names of

965
00:59:17.440 --> 00:59:21.480
<v Speaker 2>the first time questions submitters who asked it. Another high

966
00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:25.920
<v Speaker 2>school science teacher, Miranda Chavez, Susan Webb, Alloyd Johnson, scientist

967
00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:30.320
<v Speaker 2>Courtney Malo, Emily Taylor, Kazio Wisnooski, Troy Langnek, Samantha Sonitch,

968
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:32.519
<v Speaker 2>and Kevin Lee He who is the second time question

969
00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:34.960
<v Speaker 2>asker but forgot to say it was their first time

970
00:59:35.039 --> 00:59:37.280
<v Speaker 2>last time. And also, you know all of us want

971
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:39.800
<v Speaker 2>to know. And one last question A lot of listeners

972
00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:44.880
<v Speaker 2>had essentially like in Shirley Dark's words, as they say,

973
00:59:44.920 --> 00:59:46.519
<v Speaker 2>I know others who seem to hold tight to their

974
00:59:46.519 --> 00:59:49.599
<v Speaker 2>wrong ideas. What are some good steps to take to

975
00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:52.480
<v Speaker 2>make sure you can maybe get through to people? And

976
00:59:52.519 --> 00:59:56.800
<v Speaker 2>that that's also you're not clinging to false information. I mean,

977
00:59:57.079 --> 00:59:59.079
<v Speaker 2>I think I just see, you know a lot of

978
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:01.840
<v Speaker 2>the fake news, a lot of of the the doubts

979
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:05.239
<v Speaker 2>cast on a lot of media. How do how do

980
01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:06.960
<v Speaker 2>we correct that? What do we do?

981
01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:11.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Well, if it's one on one, of course, intelligent

982
01:00:11.480 --> 01:00:16.920
<v Speaker 3>listening and sympathetic listening is absolutely crucial. You know. I

983
01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:19.480
<v Speaker 3>think there's too much often too much talking, not enough

984
01:00:19.519 --> 01:00:24.199
<v Speaker 3>listening and so and you know, view other people as,

985
01:00:24.519 --> 01:00:30.679
<v Speaker 3>if nothing else, as anthropologically fascinating. You know, my own

986
01:00:30.719 --> 01:00:33.840
<v Speaker 3>brother has become all right recently, and we've had many

987
01:00:33.880 --> 01:00:36.199
<v Speaker 3>back and forth about that, but if nothing else, I

988
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:39.440
<v Speaker 3>still love him, and I'm still fascinated by how in

989
01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:43.239
<v Speaker 3>the world this happened almost you know, in a medical sense.

990
01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:47.519
<v Speaker 3>But you know, I think we need to be sympathetic

991
01:00:47.559 --> 01:00:50.960
<v Speaker 3>and to listen and to learn from people whose views

992
01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:53.039
<v Speaker 3>are very different from us. That's the kind of the

993
01:00:53.079 --> 01:00:58.039
<v Speaker 3>anthropological ethnographic aspect of think of being a scholar or

994
01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:01.559
<v Speaker 3>an ordinary person in the world is learning from others,

995
01:01:01.599 --> 01:01:06.800
<v Speaker 3>however strange they they may seem.

996
01:01:06.880 --> 01:01:10.920
<v Speaker 2>Is there a way to use empathy to kind of

997
01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:14.599
<v Speaker 2>de escalate the denial that might come with ignorance.

998
01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:18.400
<v Speaker 3>Yes, And that's why I have an idea I developed

999
01:01:18.440 --> 01:01:23.760
<v Speaker 3>it called on surrogacy. Basically, when people deny evolution or

1000
01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:27.440
<v Speaker 3>climate change, they're really not so much dying, evolution or

1001
01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:31.440
<v Speaker 3>climate change. There's something usually that is behind that. So

1002
01:01:31.480 --> 01:01:36.159
<v Speaker 3>we need to understand a particular form of denialism as

1003
01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:40.519
<v Speaker 3>possibly standing for something else. If someone is doesn't believe

1004
01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:43.880
<v Speaker 3>in climate change, is that because they're worried economically that

1005
01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:47.280
<v Speaker 3>their way of life is going to disappear? Is their

1006
01:01:47.320 --> 01:01:52.119
<v Speaker 3>way about a threat to religion? A religious view that

1007
01:01:52.159 --> 01:01:55.039
<v Speaker 3>they might have. Is it, in other words, what stands

1008
01:01:55.079 --> 01:01:59.800
<v Speaker 3>behind these movements? Because a lot of this goes back

1009
01:01:59.800 --> 01:02:03.159
<v Speaker 3>to talk about fear. A lot of ignorance is really

1010
01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:04.880
<v Speaker 3>as you said, about fear.

1011
01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:10.599
<v Speaker 2>And so maybe we would have better luck having an

1012
01:02:10.639 --> 01:02:16.159
<v Speaker 2>open discourse by being empathetic to the fears that are

1013
01:02:16.199 --> 01:02:19.880
<v Speaker 2>behind that and addressing those, rather than to say with

1014
01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:23.760
<v Speaker 2>the people in our lives that we might see having

1015
01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:27.519
<v Speaker 2>viewpoints that are not super kind.

1016
01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:31.599
<v Speaker 3>I think that's exactly right. Yeah, you have to say

1017
01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:36.320
<v Speaker 3>what is at stake, who benefits? What are the alternatives?

1018
01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:40.000
<v Speaker 3>You know, and until you get behind those, than it

1019
01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:44.599
<v Speaker 3>could be just you know, shadow boxing or useless confrontation.

1020
01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:48.960
<v Speaker 2>Exactly. Yeah. I think that, especially right now, it's imperative

1021
01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:53.920
<v Speaker 2>that white people in their lives have those conversations with

1022
01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:57.920
<v Speaker 2>people that they know. As the election approaches this fall,

1023
01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:00.800
<v Speaker 2>you may have friends from back home, cousins who live

1024
01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:03.119
<v Speaker 2>in a state that votes very differently than you, And

1025
01:03:03.280 --> 01:03:05.840
<v Speaker 2>of course it's easier to leave the tough issues unspoken.

1026
01:03:06.559 --> 01:03:09.400
<v Speaker 2>It's almost harder to speak up on a family group

1027
01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:12.400
<v Speaker 2>text than it is to post a lot of hashtags

1028
01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:14.079
<v Speaker 2>on Twitter to people who agree with you.

1029
01:03:14.639 --> 01:03:17.639
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, get out of your bubble.

1030
01:03:17.559 --> 01:03:21.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah so and have those conversations you know, privately

1031
01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:24.159
<v Speaker 2>with people in your life as well as public ator

1032
01:03:24.159 --> 01:03:28.079
<v Speaker 2>the people who agree with you. Right and last questions.

1033
01:03:28.079 --> 01:03:32.079
<v Speaker 2>I always ask every guest what is the worst thing

1034
01:03:32.320 --> 01:03:36.039
<v Speaker 2>about your job or the thing that you dislike the most.

1035
01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:39.800
<v Speaker 2>What is something that sticks in your craw either from

1036
01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:43.360
<v Speaker 2>a philosophical or just from a practical standpoint, like filing.

1037
01:03:44.760 --> 01:03:47.480
<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, I have a great job, which is

1038
01:03:47.519 --> 01:03:51.719
<v Speaker 3>being a professor. I get to interact with students. I

1039
01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:56.400
<v Speaker 3>do miss the personal contact because now it's all over zoom,

1040
01:03:56.440 --> 01:04:02.199
<v Speaker 3>and I miss the interaction in terms of artifacts. When

1041
01:04:02.199 --> 01:04:04.280
<v Speaker 3>I teach ignorance, or I teach world history, or I

1042
01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:08.719
<v Speaker 3>teach human origins, I bring in artifacts and it's not

1043
01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:12.840
<v Speaker 3>the same in the screened world. We already live obsessively

1044
01:04:12.880 --> 01:04:16.519
<v Speaker 3>in a screened world, and so I do miss the

1045
01:04:17.519 --> 01:04:22.320
<v Speaker 3>loss of the artifactual world. So I guess that would

1046
01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:24.960
<v Speaker 3>I would say, is the worst part of my job

1047
01:04:25.159 --> 01:04:29.199
<v Speaker 3>right at the moment. But I'm hopefully hoping that will change.

1048
01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:31.480
<v Speaker 2>What about the thing that you love the most? About

1049
01:04:31.519 --> 01:04:31.800
<v Speaker 2>what you do?

1050
01:04:32.719 --> 01:04:35.960
<v Speaker 3>Well? I love dealing with young people who are learning

1051
01:04:35.960 --> 01:04:40.280
<v Speaker 3>about the world. I love challenging my own views. I

1052
01:04:40.280 --> 01:04:43.159
<v Speaker 3>love finding out where I'm wrong, what I didn't know?

1053
01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:46.320
<v Speaker 3>You know, I wasn't so long ago. I learned there

1054
01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:48.760
<v Speaker 3>was a color called done. I never heard of the

1055
01:04:48.840 --> 01:04:52.960
<v Speaker 3>color done before. So I love learning new things. And

1056
01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:57.400
<v Speaker 3>if people can tell me something I didn't know that,

1057
01:04:57.480 --> 01:04:59.440
<v Speaker 3>I just what could be better?

1058
01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:03.440
<v Speaker 2>And that is what he is trying to do for us. Also,

1059
01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:06.039
<v Speaker 2>what color is done? How does one even spell that?

1060
01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Of course I looked at up for us, and it's

1061
01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:12.079
<v Speaker 2>a camely creamy kind of buckskin color. Du win. So

1062
01:05:12.280 --> 01:05:14.639
<v Speaker 2>a dune horse is like a pretty beige horse. So

1063
01:05:14.840 --> 01:05:18.760
<v Speaker 2>when in doubt, google a reputable source? What else? Any

1064
01:05:18.920 --> 01:05:21.639
<v Speaker 2>any places people can start to look if they want

1065
01:05:21.679 --> 01:05:24.599
<v Speaker 2>to make sure that they're dismantling their own ignorance.

1066
01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:28.119
<v Speaker 3>Well, they can always check any of these books that

1067
01:05:28.159 --> 01:05:31.679
<v Speaker 3>are coming out now about ignorance. There's there's a whole

1068
01:05:31.679 --> 01:05:33.840
<v Speaker 3>slew of them. There's a new one, Science and the

1069
01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:38.000
<v Speaker 3>Production of Ignorance, that just came out by a Janet

1070
01:05:38.119 --> 01:05:43.119
<v Speaker 3>Karini and Martin Carrier. Those are people who are agnetology.

1071
01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:47.280
<v Speaker 3>It is also being taught now in Europe. And there's

1072
01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:53.880
<v Speaker 3>the Oreskis Conway book Merchants of Doubt. There's our agnetology book,

1073
01:05:54.280 --> 01:05:56.760
<v Speaker 3>or you know, I've published a lot of other books

1074
01:05:56.800 --> 01:05:59.360
<v Speaker 3>on One is called the Golden Holocaust, which is about

1075
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:03.559
<v Speaker 3>the use of science as a form of deception by

1076
01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:06.239
<v Speaker 3>the by the tobacco industry. You know. So there's so

1077
01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:09.159
<v Speaker 3>many great. I just finished as signing to students the

1078
01:06:09.519 --> 01:06:11.400
<v Speaker 3>Wallace Well's Uninhabitable Earth.

1079
01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:12.480
<v Speaker 2>Great.

1080
01:06:12.519 --> 01:06:15.960
<v Speaker 3>And before that we did The Shock of the Anthropist Scene,

1081
01:06:16.320 --> 01:06:19.639
<v Speaker 3>which is such a great book. So you know, those

1082
01:06:19.679 --> 01:06:22.119
<v Speaker 3>are some of the hot topics that we like to

1083
01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:24.599
<v Speaker 3>explore in the Agnetology World.

1084
01:06:24.920 --> 01:06:27.440
<v Speaker 2>Great. I will put links to those in the show

1085
01:06:27.480 --> 01:06:30.320
<v Speaker 2>notes as well as to yours agnetology the making and

1086
01:06:30.440 --> 01:06:34.079
<v Speaker 2>unmaking of ignorance, so we'll make sure that we put

1087
01:06:34.079 --> 01:06:36.880
<v Speaker 2>that up to This was so amazing. I can't thank

1088
01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:39.960
<v Speaker 2>you enough for doing this. This is an episode people

1089
01:06:40.320 --> 01:06:43.159
<v Speaker 2>couldn't be more thrilled already for so.

1090
01:06:43.719 --> 01:06:45.519
<v Speaker 3>Great, that's very timely.

1091
01:06:46.119 --> 01:06:49.119
<v Speaker 2>It is indeed, so ask smart people stupid questions, because

1092
01:06:49.159 --> 01:06:52.239
<v Speaker 2>the only thing worse than ignorance is when you don't

1093
01:06:52.239 --> 01:06:54.400
<v Speaker 2>want to do anything to get rid of it. So, yes,

1094
01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:57.760
<v Speaker 2>that was doctor Robert Proctor. You can grab his book Agnetology,

1095
01:06:57.800 --> 01:07:00.519
<v Speaker 2>The Making and Unmaking of Ignorance, which was co edited

1096
01:07:00.559 --> 01:07:04.039
<v Speaker 2>with LANDA. Schibinger wherever books are sold. And Dude also

1097
01:07:04.119 --> 01:07:07.039
<v Speaker 2>came through with some bookres. So if you hit the

1098
01:07:07.079 --> 01:07:09.559
<v Speaker 2>link in the show notes to Aliward dot com slash

1099
01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:12.360
<v Speaker 2>ologies slash agnetology, there will be links to all of

1100
01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:15.000
<v Speaker 2>those books he mentioned, including his. So I hope you'll

1101
01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:18.079
<v Speaker 2>call a local bookstore and order those up. We are

1102
01:07:18.119 --> 01:07:21.239
<v Speaker 2>at ologies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at ali Ward

1103
01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:25.199
<v Speaker 2>with one L. And if you need perhaps an ologies Sundvisor,

1104
01:07:25.360 --> 01:07:28.360
<v Speaker 2>a swimsuit of Beanie, maybe a T shirt, please don't

1105
01:07:28.400 --> 01:07:31.519
<v Speaker 2>hesitate to hit upologiesmerch dot com. You can tag photos

1106
01:07:31.559 --> 01:07:34.800
<v Speaker 2>of you in ologies Merch hashtagologies merch on Instagram. We'll

1107
01:07:34.800 --> 01:07:37.519
<v Speaker 2>repost you and thank you to Shannonfelds and Bonnie Dutch

1108
01:07:37.800 --> 01:07:40.639
<v Speaker 2>of the comedy podcast You are that for managing merch.

1109
01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:43.840
<v Speaker 2>Thank you to Aaron Talbert for admitting the wonderful Facebook group.

1110
01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:46.679
<v Speaker 2>Hello to all the Ologies redditors, and thanks to all

1111
01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:49.639
<v Speaker 2>the folks who support on Patreon at patreon dot com

1112
01:07:49.639 --> 01:07:53.239
<v Speaker 2>slash ologies, Thanks Emily White and all the ologies transcribers

1113
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:56.599
<v Speaker 2>who are making these episodes accessible, and Caleb Patten for

1114
01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:59.559
<v Speaker 2>leaping them making him kids safe. Those are both available

1115
01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:03.000
<v Speaker 2>at allie dot com slash Ologies, dash Extras. There's a

1116
01:08:03.039 --> 01:08:05.159
<v Speaker 2>link to that in the show notes as well. Noel

1117
01:08:05.239 --> 01:08:08.800
<v Speaker 2>Dilworth keeps me on schedule and is amazing sleeper assistant

1118
01:08:08.920 --> 01:08:11.800
<v Speaker 2>edits and makes me popcorn when I'm sad. And thank

1119
01:08:11.840 --> 01:08:15.639
<v Speaker 2>you to Dinosaur and Kitty lobbyist Stephen Ray Morris, who

1120
01:08:15.639 --> 01:08:18.359
<v Speaker 2>hosts the podcast see Jurassic Rights and the per cast

1121
01:08:18.600 --> 01:08:22.079
<v Speaker 2>for being lead editor. And Nick Thorburn wrote and performed

1122
01:08:22.119 --> 01:08:24.239
<v Speaker 2>the theme music. And if you stick around to the

1123
01:08:24.359 --> 01:08:26.880
<v Speaker 2>end of the episode, you know I tell you a

1124
01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:30.239
<v Speaker 2>secret every week, And I know I've confessed to you

1125
01:08:30.279 --> 01:08:33.319
<v Speaker 2>in the past that I enjoy canned smoked oysters, but

1126
01:08:33.479 --> 01:08:36.560
<v Speaker 2>just hear me out. If you add a can to

1127
01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:40.960
<v Speaker 2>some black luster soup, it's pretty good. I mean the

1128
01:08:41.000 --> 01:08:45.159
<v Speaker 2>whole thing will taste like hot canned smoked oysters, but

1129
01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:48.319
<v Speaker 2>just toss them in your clamp chowder. Let me know

1130
01:08:48.359 --> 01:08:50.840
<v Speaker 2>how it goes. If you don't like it, it's not

1131
01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:54.000
<v Speaker 2>my fault. I mean it is, but it's my fault

1132
01:08:54.359 --> 01:09:04.279
<v Speaker 2>and I'm sorry. Okay, byebye.

1133
01:09:18.279 --> 01:09:20.520
<v Speaker 1>Get value. You can't argue with at Tesco with their

1134
01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:23.600
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1135
01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:26.399
<v Speaker 1>finest meal deal for two starring one main, two sides

1136
01:09:26.439 --> 01:09:29.319
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1137
01:09:29.399 --> 01:09:31.920
<v Speaker 1>approved Virus shined the strip loin Steaks with pepper corn

1138
01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:35.680
<v Speaker 1>butter or delicious Firous Chicken Parmeshana served with creamy potato

1139
01:09:35.680 --> 01:09:38.800
<v Speaker 1>grattam and our mix of rainbow root vegetables. And enjoy

1140
01:09:38.920 --> 01:09:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Goozillionaire or Salder Caramel cheesecake. Can't argue with that shop

1141
01:09:42.960 --> 01:09:46.439
<v Speaker 1>in store or online Tesco. Every little helps available the

1142
01:09:46.479 --> 01:09:47.920
<v Speaker 1>most stores, prices, very and express