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<v Speaker 1>Justin Marler, thank you for joining me on a commitment

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<v Speaker 1>to reality.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I'm excited about

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<v Speaker 2>this discussion.

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<v Speaker 1>I love your book. You wrote a book called Unseen Warfare,

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<v Speaker 1>Ancient Teachings for the Modern Fighter. And as I was

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<v Speaker 1>rereading the introduction to the book this morning, you said

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<v Speaker 1>it yourself that it's a field guide for life. It's

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<v Speaker 1>what you wrote it for your daughters, and I want

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<v Speaker 1>to give it to my boys as soon as they

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<v Speaker 1>get older, but I want to give it to everybody.

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<v Speaker 1>I want everybody to read this book because it really is.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's what all of us are looking for

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<v Speaker 1>in life. You talked about how in your book you

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<v Speaker 1>talked about how you would go into bookstores as a

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<v Speaker 1>young adult and you were always searching. And I did

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<v Speaker 1>the same thing, and I would feel this overwhelming sense

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<v Speaker 1>of anxiety because there's so many books and there's so

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<v Speaker 1>many different paths that these books can take you through.

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<v Speaker 1>And glory to God, you have written a modern classic.

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<v Speaker 1>I really believe that, and I think that God is

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<v Speaker 1>going to use this book to help guide people through life.

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<v Speaker 1>So thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Amen, I'm really lucky that I was able to

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<v Speaker 2>get exposed to it all as a modern American kid.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, just stumbling into Orthodoxy in the early nineties

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<v Speaker 2>was really It's a very unusual thing to have happened then.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm just grateful that I encountered the church and

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<v Speaker 2>its teachings.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Providence works in that way. So before we start

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<v Speaker 1>talking about your book, I kind of want you to

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<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit about yourself, if you will. You've

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<v Speaker 1>lived You're in your early fifties, correct.

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<v Speaker 2>Fifty four?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and already you've lived a couple lives. Could

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<v Speaker 1>you kind of get into a little bit of your

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<v Speaker 1>your backstory of you, for lack of a better word,

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<v Speaker 1>a punk and then you became a monk and then

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<v Speaker 1>you kind of merged the two worlds.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, they go hand in hand in a certain way.

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<v Speaker 2>But and I was talking with somebody just yesterday about this.

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up normal American Mickey Mouse MTV, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>saturated with you know, nonsense and garbage, and obviously I

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<v Speaker 2>was starved. My soul was starved to death, and so

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I gravitated to punk rock and that sort

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<v Speaker 2>of mentality because it's pushing back against the modern status quo.

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<v Speaker 2>The modern the way the world sees things. I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>agree with it, and so punk helped me articulate things

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<v Speaker 2>in that way, sort of rejecting the modern world. But

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<v Speaker 2>when you reject something, you have to accept something too,

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<v Speaker 2>and I didn't know that when I was younger. So, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I went through this whole experience of you know, depression,

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<v Speaker 2>suicidal ideology. Music got into music and was my dream

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<v Speaker 2>was to be in a band and record music and

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<v Speaker 2>tour and all that kind of stuff. And I was

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<v Speaker 2>able to realize that dream with some punk bands and

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<v Speaker 2>some metal bands that I were in back in that

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<v Speaker 2>back in those days, I mean, it was not solving

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<v Speaker 2>the problem though. I was still extremely suicidal and depressed,

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<v Speaker 2>and I didn't know why. I was raised with a

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<v Speaker 2>kernel of sort of non denominational Protestantism, and that stayed

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<v Speaker 2>with me, you know, throughout my life. That never has

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<v Speaker 2>gone away since I was three years old. But I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have a way to understand it. What I was

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<v Speaker 2>raised with was actually kind of confusing, the idea of

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<v Speaker 2>you say that you're saved, you accept Christ and that's that.

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<v Speaker 2>That was freaky to me at the time. I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>this can't be that simple. It's almost like a magical

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<v Speaker 2>prayer or an incantation where you say this thing and

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<v Speaker 2>you're fine, and then you can go off and do

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<v Speaker 2>stuff and quote unquote repent for it. That seemed really

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<v Speaker 2>weird to me. So I stumbled through all sorts of sins,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like I mentioned in the book, I became

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<v Speaker 2>proficient at all of them pretty much, you know, gluttony, lust, anger, despair, despondency, pride,

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<v Speaker 2>van glory, avarice, not so much. I never really cared

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<v Speaker 2>about things or money, but AMEN struggled through all these

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<v Speaker 2>other and I didn't know what was going on with

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<v Speaker 2>my soul. So obviously encountering the monks, well, first through

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<v Speaker 2>a nun and a dwarf, mind you, there was a

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<v Speaker 2>nun and a dwarf in this Christian Orthodox bookstore, and

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<v Speaker 2>obviously a young person. I was gravitated to that, like

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<v Speaker 2>what is this? This woman in a black robe and

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<v Speaker 2>there's this dwarf, you know, small person. What do we

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<v Speaker 2>want to call it? Yeah? I encountered the faith, and

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<v Speaker 2>immediately I deduced that monks were the troop punks. They

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<v Speaker 2>definitely reject the world, and they reject the status quo,

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<v Speaker 2>but they accept the answers to all that which is

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<v Speaker 2>the last true rebellion, you know, to fully reject the

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<v Speaker 2>world and fully die to yourself as best we possibly

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<v Speaker 2>can daily, so that we can live for Christ and not.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, when I saw these monks, they were sleeping

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<v Speaker 2>on planks of wood, They had really shabby sleeping bags,

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't shower very often. They were absolutely not interested

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<v Speaker 2>in the world old and the convention of conventions of

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<v Speaker 2>the world. And I I thought that was amazing, and

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<v Speaker 2>I clearly, you know, when I visited the monastery, I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't leave, you know, I stayed for seven years because

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<v Speaker 2>that was so inspiring to me. I had to go

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<v Speaker 2>back to the world and settle up some affairs in

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<v Speaker 2>the world. I had an art exhibit that I had

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<v Speaker 2>to wrap up, and that first album that I recorded

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<v Speaker 2>with a band called Sleep that was just getting released,

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<v Speaker 2>so I had to deal with that a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>But stayed about two about a month or two in

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<v Speaker 2>the world and came back to the monastery. And I

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<v Speaker 2>stayed there for a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I feel like we could talk for

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<v Speaker 1>hours about your experience in the monastery. How old were

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<v Speaker 1>you when you got there?

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<v Speaker 2>I was nineteen years old. I just completed my first record.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't go to school or anything, so.

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<v Speaker 1>All the more I mean than me.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I was young and these things were brewing

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<v Speaker 2>inside of me, and the monastery was you know. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>when you distill it down, the monastic life is the

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<v Speaker 2>most conducive life for spiritual life and for a life

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<v Speaker 2>in Christ. It is everything is geared towards Christ, towards

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<v Speaker 2>I call you know, the Bible calls it the one

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<v Speaker 2>thing needful. Everything in the monastery is geared toward that.

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<v Speaker 2>So initially you either suffer through all of your awfulness

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<v Speaker 2>and you get through it and you get on the

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<v Speaker 2>rhythm of the monastic life, which is a long process,

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<v Speaker 2>or you leave. We had a lot of people that

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<v Speaker 2>showed up and they were excited about the monastic life,

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<v Speaker 2>and they would disappear after a week or a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of days. Sometimes they would leave in the middle of

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<v Speaker 2>the night. I guess out of shame or something, which

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<v Speaker 2>is not necessary. But yeah, when you're when you first,

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<v Speaker 2>when you're first there, there's a romantic experience. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's beautiful, it's amazing, and it's warm. It's filled with

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<v Speaker 2>big ideas and lots of wisdom. And then after about

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<v Speaker 2>a month you start questioning everything. You're standing in church

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<v Speaker 2>for hours and you're thinking. Your thought processes go wild

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<v Speaker 2>because of all this trash that we've exposed ourselves to

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<v Speaker 2>through our senses, through our childhood and whatnot. And you

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<v Speaker 2>hit a point where you have to either push forward

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<v Speaker 2>and God's grace helps you through it, or you run

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<v Speaker 2>back to the world. You know, you run back to

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<v Speaker 2>the plow or whatever. But it was the best formative

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<v Speaker 2>seven years of my life, easily. It taught me what

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<v Speaker 2>it means to be a male, a man in the

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<v Speaker 2>modern world, which I didn't get that from anything else.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually got that mostly from our bishop here in Dallas,

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<v Speaker 2>Bishop Garassum. He was in the monastery at the time

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<v Speaker 2>there and I got to know him very well, and

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<v Speaker 2>I still know him to this day. We have a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of whenever we run into each other, we have

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<v Speaker 2>a shared understanding, which is really beautiful. But he's the

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<v Speaker 2>one who really showed me asceticism and to suffer quietly

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<v Speaker 2>and to be a man really, And I got all

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<v Speaker 2>that from the monastery.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, you said you didn't go to school,

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<v Speaker 1>but seven years in the monastery, what is that, and.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's an interesting idea. I can go to school.

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<v Speaker 2>I hated academia. I hated high school. I thought it

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<v Speaker 2>was a toxic social environment for young people. I thought

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<v Speaker 2>it was actually something you would want to do to

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<v Speaker 2>hurt somebody, you put them in high school. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>So I despised education in a certain way. But when

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<v Speaker 2>I gave when I was given a platform to self

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<v Speaker 2>educate or to learn on my own terms, that was

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<v Speaker 2>in the monastery. So I dove into biology. I dove

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<v Speaker 2>into books on life after death and death experiences, dove

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<v Speaker 2>into science and looked into evolution a lot. Obviously. I

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<v Speaker 2>read tons of theology, so it was a theological school.

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<v Speaker 2>Every moment of every day was theology school. And I

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<v Speaker 2>read my first book from cover to cover in the monastery.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I got through high school reading cliff notes

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<v Speaker 2>for these books that I thought were horrible, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Animal Farm, terrible, terrible stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>My first book that I read from cover to cover

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<v Speaker 2>in the monastery was Dostavsky's Brother's Cameras Off Okay, which

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<v Speaker 2>was a big undertaking, and I didn't understand most of it,

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<v Speaker 2>half of it anyway, But I did understand Alyosha, and

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<v Speaker 2>I understood his brother, these two brothers, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>got what they were fighting for, you know, or fighting

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<v Speaker 2>against whatever. Yeah, I self educated in there, and also

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<v Speaker 2>I learned some major, major important things that a modern

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<v Speaker 2>young person doesn't necessarily learn deliberately in the world, and

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<v Speaker 2>that is the love of beauty, the love of the

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<v Speaker 2>classical music, the love of old movies, the love of

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<v Speaker 2>art and old art. You know. I taught and went

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<v Speaker 2>through art classes in high school, but nothing revealed to

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<v Speaker 2>me the essence of beauty in that way. So I

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<v Speaker 2>got a great lesson on the appreciation of beauty in

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<v Speaker 2>the monastery too. The abbot of the monastery, he's reposed now.

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<v Speaker 2>He actually sent me to an opera in San Francisco

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<v Speaker 2>as a monk, not showered dirty, and we went I

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<v Speaker 2>think it was one other, maybe two other monks of myself.

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<v Speaker 2>We went to San Francisco opera and me, being a

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<v Speaker 2>punk rocker, I had record or did my metal record

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<v Speaker 2>not very far from where that opera house is a

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<v Speaker 2>year and a half prior. So I'm going to this

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<v Speaker 2>opera and I'm newly appreciating classical music, and I finally

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<v Speaker 2>wrap my head around it. You know a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>And when we go there, we saw geepe verdez la

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<v Speaker 2>Forta del Destino, the force of Destiny, and it has

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<v Speaker 2>monasticism in it. It has this struggle of the passions

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<v Speaker 2>in it, powerful, powerful and moving. All that I got

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<v Speaker 2>from the monastery.

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<v Speaker 1>What's so interesting because you're talking about beauty, you're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about joy, and monastics practice detachment, right, And so from

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<v Speaker 1>my perspective, or from from most of the world's perspective,

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<v Speaker 1>detachment is almost the opposite. It's kind of a despising

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<v Speaker 1>of the world. That's the perception, right. So like, how

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<v Speaker 1>do I mean, the monks are clear the experts at this,

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<v Speaker 1>but how do us lay people who are living out

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<v Speaker 1>in the modern world practice detachment while also maintaining a

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<v Speaker 1>joy for the beauty of God's creation? I mean, our

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<v Speaker 1>life is beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Well, I have my approach to it, and obviously

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<v Speaker 3>I you know, I've been saturating myself with the church

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<v Speaker 3>fathers on this topic for a long time, and I

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<v Speaker 3>tried to raise my.

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<v Speaker 2>Daughters with some understanding of being detached, and they have

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<v Speaker 2>it in them. I see it sometimes when they say something,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, there it is that little kernel of I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not going to fully care about these things of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>You know. I think that when I started off with it,

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<v Speaker 2>I learned to despise it, like you said, and then

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<v Speaker 2>I learned that despising it isn't the answer. It's actually

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<v Speaker 2>just not caring. You know. There's a middle road here.

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<v Speaker 2>You can love it, or you can despise it, or

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<v Speaker 2>you can just not have it affect you. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that that's what I learned from the Church Fathers,

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<v Speaker 2>is to not swing either way with it. And so

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<v Speaker 2>in the book, I don't know if you got to

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<v Speaker 2>this chapter or not, but in the detachment chapter, I

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<v Speaker 2>have this great story.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna stop you right there. Yeah, got to this

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<v Speaker 1>part yet. I've almost read it twice. I've read your

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<v Speaker 1>book cover to cover almost twice. I love it. So

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<v Speaker 1>just to let you know, I'm very very well versed

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<v Speaker 1>in the book, not that I have the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>recall that you do of it, but I definitely paid

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<v Speaker 1>attention to it.

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<v Speaker 2>So this story that you've read, I'm assuming it really

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<v Speaker 2>illustrates how detachment should play out. And I guess it's

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<v Speaker 2>through a monk in the Egyptian desert. Okay, he's in

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<v Speaker 2>the desert. He's living alone as a solitary, and he

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<v Speaker 2>has a visitor, and the visitor stays with him and

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<v Speaker 2>steals his one precious item, which is a beautiful gospel

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<v Speaker 2>version of the Gospel that he had hidden in his

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<v Speaker 2>cell so he could always keep it. This visitor steals it,

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<v Speaker 2>takes it to the nearest village and asks the guy

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<v Speaker 2>if he would be interested in buying it, and the

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<v Speaker 2>guy said, I would be interested, but I need to

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<v Speaker 2>talk to somebody else about the value. So he takes

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<v Speaker 2>it to this monk, the same monk not knowing that

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<v Speaker 2>this gospel belonged to him, and asks him is this

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<v Speaker 2>a good price for this? And the monk doesn't reveal

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<v Speaker 2>that it's actually his possession. He says, yeah, that's a

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<v Speaker 2>good value and sends him away. That is the essence

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<v Speaker 2>of detachment right there, is you do love this thing

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<v Speaker 2>and you value it, and it's the Gospels, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, I'm not attached to anything

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<v Speaker 2>in this world, and the detachment to things is liberating.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the thing that the modern man, I think is

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<v Speaker 2>missing greatly in how we view everything is with these attachments.

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<v Speaker 2>We view them as something that's important, something that defines

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<v Speaker 2>our character. Even our attachments to our parents and grandparents,

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<v Speaker 2>all these things we view them as essential, and that

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<v Speaker 2>is totally not true. Detachment still contains love and still

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<v Speaker 2>contains use. You're still using these things and they're in

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<v Speaker 2>your life and love. You still have these relatives ands on.

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<v Speaker 2>But when we're detached, when something dies, when a person dies,

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<v Speaker 2>when a thing goes away, when your house burns down,

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<v Speaker 2>nothing affects you. So being detached in a huge way

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<v Speaker 2>is I think the essence of some of Christ's teachings,

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<v Speaker 2>and he also just exhibited that in his life. Is

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<v Speaker 2>just these things of the world are not us. They're

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<v Speaker 2>not us. They're they're not ours, you know, And Saint

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<v Speaker 2>John in his epistles talks about this at great length.

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<v Speaker 2>Love of the world. You know, we can't love God

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<v Speaker 2>and love the world. And that's a really harsh statement,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's an hundred percent true.

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<v Speaker 1>Or you will hate your your mother and father. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean without the proper context, they're jarring. Yeah, And

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<v Speaker 1>they said.

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<v Speaker 2>They're really jarring. He was, he was. He brought into

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<v Speaker 2>the world something profoundly earth shaking.

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<v Speaker 1>You talk about detachment, I mean as I finished or

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<v Speaker 1>or was finishing your book, a text ran across my

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<v Speaker 1>screen that the sexton at our church had died. And

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<v Speaker 1>he was such a special man. I mean, he is

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<v Speaker 1>the caretaker of the church, and he was the godfather

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<v Speaker 1>to a lot of people who you've impacted. So you

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<v Speaker 1>guys have a connection without you ever having met him.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, a lot of these young men coming into

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<v Speaker 1>the church through you or through you know, through something

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<v Speaker 1>that you're putting out there in the world, and then

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<v Speaker 1>he was there to welcome them, and he just shepherded them.

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<v Speaker 1>And it was unexpectedly expected. You know, he was having

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<v Speaker 1>some health issues, but I saw that right as I

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<v Speaker 1>was finishing your book and getting it through a chapter

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<v Speaker 1>on death. I went to church that night and I

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<v Speaker 1>had the strangest experience. You know, I've experienced a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of death over the past couple of weeks for whatever

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<v Speaker 1>reason in God's timing, and I think death will always

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<v Speaker 1>I hope we never get too comfortable with death, right,

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<v Speaker 1>it should always be an affront to our senses. But

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<v Speaker 1>as I stood there, you know, all of his god

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<v Speaker 1>children that were able to win up and they were

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<v Speaker 1>praying the Trisagion, and I was watching and I just

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<v Speaker 1>had this overwhelming peace that was not natural, and I

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00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:34.639
<v Speaker 1>think it was to some degree experiencing that detachment that

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<v Speaker 1>this world is beautiful, but it's not everything, and he's

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<v Speaker 1>home now, and while that's sad for us, it's beautiful

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<v Speaker 1>for him, and now he's praying for us. So yes,

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<v Speaker 1>So you talk about the healthy detachment, there's also when

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<v Speaker 1>you left the monastery, you said that you assimilated, but

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<v Speaker 1>with a healthy discomfort.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you mean by that, Well, it goes back

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<v Speaker 2>to my youth and punk and also the Monk chapters.

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<v Speaker 2>I've never wanted to be comfortable with it, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>So when I left the monastery and to this day,

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<v Speaker 2>I still have a healthy discomfort with it because I

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<v Speaker 2>know that this world is we're pilgrims here, and just

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<v Speaker 2>you know the same thing about detachment. You know, this

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<v Speaker 2>is not where we're We're not supposed to pitch our

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<v Speaker 2>tent forever here. And I think that the discomfort in

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<v Speaker 2>the world, it really ties to the passions. The more

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<v Speaker 2>that I get comfortable with any of these passions, the

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<v Speaker 2>more that I get off track spiritually, And the more

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<v Speaker 2>that I'm off track spiritually, the more that I'm dissatisfied.

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<v Speaker 2>The more that I'm upset, restless, discontent, anxious, all those

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<v Speaker 2>things start to bubble up. But the more I'm dissatisfied

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<v Speaker 2>with the world and see it for what it is

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<v Speaker 2>and remind myself of that continually, the more I keep

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<v Speaker 2>it at Bay, It's almost like, you know, you set

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<v Speaker 2>up boundaries. You know, I'm setting up a boundary with

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<v Speaker 2>the world all the time, you know. Yeah, And I

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<v Speaker 2>do normal things. I go to shows, I'm gonna take

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<v Speaker 2>my daughter to see a country singer, you know, go

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<v Speaker 2>out and do things in the world and everything, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's always with a critical eye. Last time I took

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<v Speaker 2>her to a show, I saw the crowd and it

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<v Speaker 2>reminded me of St. Sanya and her husband and him

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<v Speaker 2>partying and him dying. And I'm looking at this crowd

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<v Speaker 2>of people, and so I'm always kind of looking at

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<v Speaker 2>it through this lens of this is just death. It's

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<v Speaker 2>all gonna pass, and it's not worth getting your heart

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<v Speaker 2>wrapped up in it, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And I hate to keep forgive me if I'm

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<v Speaker 1>beating a dead horse here, but it's I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>something really important, and if if we can help people

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<v Speaker 1>overcome people including myself, over this obstacle, that detachment and

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<v Speaker 1>kind of this discomfort with the world and the critical

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<v Speaker 1>eye that you're talking about. In that separation, there's a

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<v Speaker 1>tendency to view that through a negative like a lens

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<v Speaker 1>of negativity, Like, oh, Justin's a negative guy. He doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>you know, he's this uh, spiritual guy, but he has

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<v Speaker 1>this negative edge. He thinks the world is bad. And

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<v Speaker 1>how do we overcome that?

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<v Speaker 2>We have to separate the two ideas. Here there is

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<v Speaker 2>the world, which is God's created world, which is beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>It's astonishing, it's filled with miracles, it's filled with majesty.

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<v Speaker 2>The biological structures, the molecules, all that stuff is astonishingly amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>The world is best defined by Saint Isaac Assyrian, which

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<v Speaker 2>I've been, you know, beating this dead horse forever death

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<v Speaker 2>to the world. You know, the world is the collective

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<v Speaker 2>name that we call the passions. We must have a

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<v Speaker 2>negative view of them. As soon as we don't have

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<v Speaker 2>a negative view of them, they tear us apart. And

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<v Speaker 2>if you can't see that in our own lives, then

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<v Speaker 2>we're basically blindly letting ourselves fall into This is what

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<v Speaker 2>leads to despair. And depression is once the world infects

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<v Speaker 2>us in this way, and we should be negative about that.

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<v Speaker 2>That is one hundred percent which we should be doing.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the things that some of the visitors would

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<v Speaker 2>come to the monastery, and they were largely you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about people that were inquirers, that were coming

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<v Speaker 2>from a sort of agnostic background. They would point out

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<v Speaker 2>that same thing, why are you fleeing the world? What's

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<v Speaker 2>so bad about the world? Why are you saying so

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<v Speaker 2>many negative things about the world. I was actually walking

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<v Speaker 2>on a beach in Alaska with a musician that's pretty

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<v Speaker 2>well known. He was the singer of a band called

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<v Speaker 2>Minor Threat and a band called Fugazi. His name was

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<v Speaker 2>Ian Mackay or he is Ian Mackay. And we were

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<v Speaker 2>walking along the beach talking of all these topics. And

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<v Speaker 2>he at the time and it probably still is maybe,

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<v Speaker 2>but he was agnostic, atheist sort of, and he said

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<v Speaker 2>that same thing, why are you guys, why do you

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<v Speaker 2>guys hate the world so much? It's just people. I

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<v Speaker 2>think we need to make the distinction here. We don't.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not despising the people. We're not despising like I said, nature,

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<v Speaker 2>but we are despising these manifestations that people and our

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<v Speaker 2>passions bring into the world. If you look at all

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<v Speaker 2>of the nastiness in our world, all of it is

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<v Speaker 2>a result of the passions, all of it. So you

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00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.319
<v Speaker 2>can't soften this thing. There is no soft place for it,

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<v Speaker 2>to make a little safe spot for these things. They're

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00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:45.319
<v Speaker 2>just they have no place here and we need to

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<v Speaker 2>destroy them. And that's what the church fathers taught us

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<v Speaker 2>or teach us, is to separate the two. And I

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00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.440
<v Speaker 2>think that that's the best approach. But when it comes

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<v Speaker 2>to I just want to make a point about detachment

401
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.400
<v Speaker 2>really quick. Yeah. It goes back to this very topic.

402
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:07.480
<v Speaker 2>When we desire something, it causes us suffering. When we

403
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:13.000
<v Speaker 2>desire to have money because 'rapport that desire causes suffering.

404
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:16.200
<v Speaker 2>When we are unhealthy and we desire health and it's

405
00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:20.400
<v Speaker 2>chronic and this desire for this health, which is not possible,

406
00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:22.680
<v Speaker 2>it causes us to suffer. The more that we say,

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<v Speaker 2>may it be blessed, period, may it be blessed, whatever

408
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:30.599
<v Speaker 2>it is, that is the detachment prayer. That is the

409
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:34.759
<v Speaker 2>detachment phrase that actually done across the board. No matter

410
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<v Speaker 2>what's happening in a person's life, whether it's tragic or awful,

411
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:42.240
<v Speaker 2>or whether you're being showered with blessings that are worldly blessings,

412
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:44.839
<v Speaker 2>it should be may it be blessed. And I don't

413
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:45.480
<v Speaker 2>care about it.

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<v Speaker 1>You know that will be done.

415
00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:50.480
<v Speaker 2>That will be done. It applies to people that can't

416
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.759
<v Speaker 2>have children. If you can't have a child, but you're

417
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:55.240
<v Speaker 2>pining to have kids and you know you can't, that

418
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:58.799
<v Speaker 2>desire causes you to suffer. Let it go, Let it

419
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:02.599
<v Speaker 2>all go, and replace it all with prayer, all of it,

420
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:04.519
<v Speaker 2>all of it goes to May it be blessed.

421
00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:08.880
<v Speaker 1>Amen, Amen, Glory to God in all things.

422
00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Right.

423
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:13.799
<v Speaker 1>And that's that's that's I mean, a prayer is a

424
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:16.599
<v Speaker 1>maxim uh. I mean that's that's the prayer. I prayer

425
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:19.759
<v Speaker 1>all day, every day throughout the day. I mean, if

426
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:23.799
<v Speaker 1>if something good happens, glory to you God in all things,

427
00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:27.519
<v Speaker 1>take keep keep me, keep me humble. Right. If something

428
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:30.880
<v Speaker 1>bad is happening, glory to you God and all things.

429
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.799
<v Speaker 1>I mean, give me the perspective that I need. Teach

430
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:36.279
<v Speaker 1>me what I need to learn through this. I mean,

431
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.400
<v Speaker 1>just it's all about perspective. Right. So you use a word,

432
00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:43.599
<v Speaker 1>it's not it's not your word, but you are using

433
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:50.599
<v Speaker 1>a word the passions. Now they're not a complete equivalent

434
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:54.920
<v Speaker 1>with sin. So if you could distinguish what the sin,

435
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:58.680
<v Speaker 1>what sin is, and what the passions are, and also,

436
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:04.279
<v Speaker 1>if you will, sin has a lot of baggage. We

437
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:06.920
<v Speaker 1>can only speak from our American perspective. I don't know

438
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:12.359
<v Speaker 1>what the universal perception conception of sin is, but in America,

439
00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:16.319
<v Speaker 1>as soon as you use the S word, it's like

440
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.920
<v Speaker 1>you kind of let's just create a straw man here.

441
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:24.799
<v Speaker 1>Let's imagine that it's a non religious person and they

442
00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:28.799
<v Speaker 1>hear you use that word, that S word sin, they

443
00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:34.240
<v Speaker 1>immediately see some in their mind, hateful, bigoted, you know,

444
00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:39.839
<v Speaker 1>fire and brimstone preacher telling you that you're sinful. And

445
00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:45.920
<v Speaker 1>so as a result, I think they almost protect sin itself,

446
00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:50.759
<v Speaker 1>imaging themselves to a degree. I understand because there's a

447
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.319
<v Speaker 1>lot of baggage wrapped up in that word. And so

448
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:56.519
<v Speaker 1>when you use the word passions, I think it could

449
00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:59.599
<v Speaker 1>almost be more helpful. But if you could just define

450
00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:01.319
<v Speaker 1>the two and what the difference is.

451
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:05.759
<v Speaker 2>I firmly believe that one of the great psychological tragedies

452
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:11.000
<v Speaker 2>in the West is a misunderstanding of sin. It is

453
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:15.279
<v Speaker 2>informing the worldview of everyone, Like you mentioned, religious and

454
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:19.359
<v Speaker 2>non religious view the world through the lens of this

455
00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:23.200
<v Speaker 2>of sin as as they understand it, and the misunderstanding

456
00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:28.440
<v Speaker 2>here is what causes a tremendous amount of theological discord

457
00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:33.440
<v Speaker 2>or theological misunderstanding, which causes people to leave God and

458
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:37.960
<v Speaker 2>the Church. You know, sin, as I described in the book,

459
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:41.720
<v Speaker 2>and the church fathers talk about this sin comes from

460
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:44.519
<v Speaker 2>a word that they believe. It comes from a word

461
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:46.960
<v Speaker 2>that is used in archery, where you are shooting at

462
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:49.519
<v Speaker 2>a target and you miss the mark. Missing the mark

463
00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:54.960
<v Speaker 2>is a sin in archery. Very very interesting idea. I

464
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:58.640
<v Speaker 2>love that idea because when you're in archery, you're doing

465
00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:05.400
<v Speaker 2>something av you're trying, and you're hitting a target and

466
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:07.880
<v Speaker 2>you go up to the target afterwards and you see

467
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.720
<v Speaker 2>where you land it. That's called self evaluation. And you're

468
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:13.480
<v Speaker 2>looking and you're seeing did I make it in the

469
00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:15.759
<v Speaker 2>target or did I come out into the outer rings

470
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.720
<v Speaker 2>or not. You're trying, You're trying to get in the target.

471
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.759
<v Speaker 2>That's the whole point. So missing the mark is a

472
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:25.400
<v Speaker 2>much better way to understand sin. Yes, sin in the

473
00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:29.839
<v Speaker 2>modern person's understanding is a tool for judgment, a tool

474
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:33.440
<v Speaker 2>for condemnation a tool for shame, and this is absolutely

475
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:36.880
<v Speaker 2>not helpful because like the archer, the archer is trying

476
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:42.799
<v Speaker 2>to improve accusation and shame and judgment. It's just hurting somebody.

477
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:46.079
<v Speaker 2>It's not fair, not fair at all. So sin is

478
00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:48.599
<v Speaker 2>when we miss the mark. And then the church fathers

479
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:54.440
<v Speaker 2>have amazing teachings on the passions. Passions. There's typically there's

480
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:57.559
<v Speaker 2>eight of them. There's some church fathers that have seven.

481
00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:01.000
<v Speaker 2>There's some that identify eight, and they use words a

482
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:07.359
<v Speaker 2>little bit differently, but ultimately the list is this gluttony, lust, avarice, anger, despair,

483
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:12.160
<v Speaker 2>despondency or sadness, vain, glory and pride. Those are the passions.

484
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:14.759
<v Speaker 2>These are the things that cause us to suffer. And

485
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:18.119
<v Speaker 2>the word pacio, which means to suffer, that's what we're

486
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:22.599
<v Speaker 2>talking about here, is suffering. So each of these passions,

487
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:25.119
<v Speaker 2>the church Fathers are clear to identify them as being.

488
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:28.480
<v Speaker 2>They have a natural place when they're ordered. So if

489
00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:31.759
<v Speaker 2>you look at gluttony, for example, we are supposed to eat,

490
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:34.160
<v Speaker 2>we're supposed to drink, you know, we have to do

491
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:37.759
<v Speaker 2>these things. But when it's disordered, it can kill us. Literally.

492
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.359
<v Speaker 2>The main thing that's the cause of death in the

493
00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:44.359
<v Speaker 2>US is heart disease, which is tied to diet. So

494
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:48.200
<v Speaker 2>when this passion is in its rightful place, it's not

495
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:51.680
<v Speaker 2>a passion and it's a natural thing that the body does.

496
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:54.599
<v Speaker 2>And that would apply to lust as well. Ust when

497
00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:59.119
<v Speaker 2>it's disordered, becomes out of control and it controls a

498
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:01.960
<v Speaker 2>person's life, and it can destroy marriages and so on.

499
00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:06.920
<v Speaker 2>But when it's controlled with self control and chastity, even

500
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:11.279
<v Speaker 2>in marriage, chastity can be a thing, it can produce life,

501
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.680
<v Speaker 2>Like to share in the ability of actually creating a

502
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:19.160
<v Speaker 2>human being with God is an insane thing, Like thinking

503
00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:22.240
<v Speaker 2>about that is just mind blowing. So there's, on the

504
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.160
<v Speaker 2>one hand, the passion of lust, and on the controlled

505
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:28.920
<v Speaker 2>side there is the building of a family, which is

506
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:32.160
<v Speaker 2>like the most important thing in society. When all these

507
00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:36.960
<v Speaker 2>passions are ordered, they are actually beautiful. But when they're disordered,

508
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.200
<v Speaker 2>they become a passion, and that's when they just destroy us.

509
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.880
<v Speaker 2>They become an addiction, they become a bad habit that

510
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.160
<v Speaker 2>it gives come something that destroys our life and the

511
00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:47.640
<v Speaker 2>lives of those around us. And that would include also sadness.

512
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:53.000
<v Speaker 2>For instance, sadness has a place it's that moment when

513
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:56.599
<v Speaker 2>we're repentant for our mistakes or our sins, where we

514
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:59.680
<v Speaker 2>feel remorse. It doesn't mean it to be sustained over time.

515
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.559
<v Speaker 2>Remembrance of wrongs and obsessing over something I did twenty

516
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.559
<v Speaker 2>years ago is not repentance, but that sadness in the

517
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.799
<v Speaker 2>moment is crucial for moving forward towards God. You know

518
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:17.079
<v Speaker 2>the other passions as well. Pride. It's okay to have some.

519
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:21.519
<v Speaker 2>You know, you accomplish something and you feel good about that.

520
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:24.359
<v Speaker 2>That's okay because it makes you want to move forward

521
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:27.880
<v Speaker 2>and get better. But when it becomes where you think

522
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.599
<v Speaker 2>yourself is better than everyone else and obviously just way

523
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.720
<v Speaker 2>out of whack. So that's the difference from the church

524
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.160
<v Speaker 2>Father's teachings on sin versus the passions. Now the church Fathers,

525
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:41.440
<v Speaker 2>especially in the phil Callia, they emphasize the passions and

526
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:43.720
<v Speaker 2>working on them more because those are the root causes

527
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:47.119
<v Speaker 2>of what caused human dysfunction in the human condition. Are

528
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:50.960
<v Speaker 2>the passions instances of sin, Yes, they should be corrected

529
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:55.640
<v Speaker 2>or repented for, but these instances aren't the thing. The

530
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:59.440
<v Speaker 2>thing is the passions. You know, when you break the

531
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:03.799
<v Speaker 2>fast land and you eat, what is it a beef

532
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:08.440
<v Speaker 2>burrito whatever, you know, but you're not accustomed to doing that. Okay,

533
00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:11.359
<v Speaker 2>you've made a mistake, move on, you know. But when

534
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:14.960
<v Speaker 2>you're doing this repeatedly and you gain weight and you're sick,

535
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:17.319
<v Speaker 2>and your doctors saying you have diabetes and all this

536
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:19.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff, it's out of hand, you know.

537
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:19.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

538
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:24.039
<v Speaker 2>The Church Fathers are brilliant at focusing on the root causes,

539
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.440
<v Speaker 2>the root causes of sin, and when the root causes

540
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:30.599
<v Speaker 2>are addressed, then the other sins clear up. You know.

541
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:32.880
<v Speaker 2>It's kind of just the same things as you know,

542
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:34.640
<v Speaker 2>a doctor in the body, you know.

543
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.039
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean in the book, I don't think this

544
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:40.960
<v Speaker 1>is unique to you, but you brought it to me.

545
00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:45.160
<v Speaker 1>So thank you that the Church Fathers were known as

546
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:50.119
<v Speaker 1>church doctors or as just spiritual doctors. And it's like, man,

547
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:54.759
<v Speaker 1>so much of this would the modern world suffers from

548
00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:57.920
<v Speaker 1>soul sickness, but we don't even realize it because most

549
00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:00.319
<v Speaker 1>people don't even think that they have a soul, right,

550
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:05.079
<v Speaker 1>I Mean, you start the book talking about the importance

551
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:08.480
<v Speaker 1>of worldview, and this is something that's really important to

552
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:13.319
<v Speaker 1>me because for many years I've held the belief that

553
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:18.240
<v Speaker 1>most people I mean, everybody has a worldview. Like somebody

554
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:19.680
<v Speaker 1>the end of the day said that they're not religious.

555
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:23.480
<v Speaker 1>I said, everybody's religious. You're definitely religious. You might not

556
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:27.400
<v Speaker 1>think about it. That's true. So you could say, I

557
00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.400
<v Speaker 1>don't think about religion, okay, but everybody has a religion.

558
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:33.920
<v Speaker 1>There's no such thing as neutrality, right, Everybody has a worldview.

559
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:38.240
<v Speaker 1>The biggest problem is that nobody thinks that they do,

560
00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:40.799
<v Speaker 1>or so many people in our modern world don't think

561
00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:46.000
<v Speaker 1>that they hold a worldview, and their worldviews are discordant,

562
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:52.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean completely cognitively dissonant. And you know I think

563
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:55.519
<v Speaker 1>that well, I don't think, I know, look around. It

564
00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:59.200
<v Speaker 1>leads to chaos. And so you start the book, I think,

565
00:31:59.319 --> 00:32:02.640
<v Speaker 1>very appropriately talking about the most important thing that somebody

566
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:04.960
<v Speaker 1>can do is have a well formed worldview.

567
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:10.640
<v Speaker 2>How yeah, yeah, you pointed out something that's extremely important.

568
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:13.359
<v Speaker 2>And I think that this is only the sickness in

569
00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:15.839
<v Speaker 2>our in our world. It's not even just American culture.

570
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.160
<v Speaker 2>It's actually PERVASI it's all pervasive now, it's everywhere for

571
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:23.559
<v Speaker 2>the most part, this illness because our souls are starved

572
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:26.519
<v Speaker 2>and we our world views are completely out of whack

573
00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.640
<v Speaker 2>and in discord because we don't really know how to

574
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:33.680
<v Speaker 2>critically think anymore, which is really weird to me. But yeah,

575
00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:37.559
<v Speaker 2>the formation of the worldview I think people are finding

576
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:39.200
<v Speaker 2>in the or. This is why the Orthodarchs Church is

577
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:42.160
<v Speaker 2>probably growing up blowing up like it is, is that

578
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:45.319
<v Speaker 2>people know they're sick, but they don't know how or why,

579
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:48.960
<v Speaker 2>and they encounter the Orthodox Faith or the Church of

580
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.200
<v Speaker 2>Christ that is Apostles and they see it's like a

581
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:55.599
<v Speaker 2>it's a it's a it's a massive well and you

582
00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:59.400
<v Speaker 2>drop this bucket in here and the water is endless.

583
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:03.319
<v Speaker 2>It really truly is endless, this worldview. Like I am

584
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:07.440
<v Speaker 2>surrounded right now with books. They're everywhere all you know,

585
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:09.279
<v Speaker 2>going all the way back to the de Decay and

586
00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:12.720
<v Speaker 2>the early Apostolic documents, all the way up to Elder

587
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:16.319
<v Speaker 2>Paieesius sitting right here and St. Mectarius of Aguina. You know,

588
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:20.759
<v Speaker 2>this whole worldview. The crazy part about it is that

589
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:25.440
<v Speaker 2>over the course of two thousand years, it's remained completely unaltered.

590
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:29.799
<v Speaker 2>It hasn't veered, it hasn't been changed. It's consistent over time,

591
00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:34.319
<v Speaker 2>and it works. It works. And this is the difference,

592
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:37.640
<v Speaker 2>and I say this in my book, the difference in

593
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:43.559
<v Speaker 2>modern psychology and therapy versus the church. Modern psychology is

594
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:46.680
<v Speaker 2>trying to address these symptoms, you know, and it's helpful

595
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:48.960
<v Speaker 2>in a crisis, and there are tools in there that

596
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:52.759
<v Speaker 2>could be useful. I'm not discrediting that, But the Church

597
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:56.960
<v Speaker 2>gives us the tools to truly heal the soul to

598
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.160
<v Speaker 2>the degree of making a saint out of a person.

599
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:05.039
<v Speaker 2>That's astonishing, and psychology and modern approaches will never ever

600
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:07.799
<v Speaker 2>come close to that. They will help you cope, they

601
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:10.719
<v Speaker 2>will help you get through something, and they will give

602
00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:14.280
<v Speaker 2>you some tools. But the Church actually wants to shape

603
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:18.920
<v Speaker 2>you into a saint. It's a holy person, which is wild.

604
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.599
<v Speaker 1>You say, you say, it's the purpose of life.

605
00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:25.519
<v Speaker 2>It's the purpose and that The irony in all of that,

606
00:34:25.559 --> 00:34:28.199
<v Speaker 2>which always has kind of bothered me a little bit,

607
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:30.960
<v Speaker 2>is that the Church is calling us to be a saint,

608
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and Saint Paul is calling his people's saints while in

609
00:34:33.559 --> 00:34:36.559
<v Speaker 2>his epistles, but we're not supposed to even notice that

610
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:40.840
<v Speaker 2>it's happening at all, which is really funny. But we're

611
00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:43.280
<v Speaker 2>supposed to supposed to still be working on this journey,

612
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:45.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, not necessarily to be a saint. But the

613
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:48.679
<v Speaker 2>idea is self purifying, purifying ourselves to the grace of God,

614
00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:51.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, which means uprooting and dealing with these passions

615
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:53.679
<v Speaker 2>so that we can be better closer to God, which

616
00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:56.039
<v Speaker 2>is the term it's theosis, which I don't like using

617
00:34:56.079 --> 00:35:02.280
<v Speaker 2>that too lightly because it's it's very important seeing but yes,

618
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:04.599
<v Speaker 2>we're called to be saints, and my daughters, they're called

619
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:06.239
<v Speaker 2>to be saints, which is why I wrote this book.

620
00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:10.880
<v Speaker 2>I want them to know that God is drawing them

621
00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:13.679
<v Speaker 2>like a tractor beam to him because he wants to

622
00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:19.159
<v Speaker 2>sanctify them, wants to sanctify you and me, which is crazy. Yeah.

623
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:23.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I talked to uh to Martin Shaw on another

624
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:27.079
<v Speaker 1>podcast and reading his book. He talked about and I'd

625
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:30.360
<v Speaker 1>really like, I mean, you having spent time in monasteries,

626
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:34.159
<v Speaker 1>and many of our modern saints and just saints throughout

627
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:39.440
<v Speaker 1>history were monastics. But he said something along the lines

628
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:44.079
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna mucky it up, but uh, something like he

629
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:48.400
<v Speaker 1>wants to make the word saint a little dirtier and

630
00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:51.119
<v Speaker 1>and and and take the shine off of it a

631
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:53.599
<v Speaker 1>little bit, and in doing so, make it a little

632
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:57.679
<v Speaker 1>bit more approachable, that that's something that you can actually become,

633
00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:02.079
<v Speaker 1>and that when you experience somebody in this world and

634
00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:06.039
<v Speaker 1>they make your life better, or they do something that

635
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:09.320
<v Speaker 1>just brings you, that shines that you see the face

636
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:12.199
<v Speaker 1>of Christ through them, right, that that's what the halo is,

637
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:17.599
<v Speaker 1>and and you walk away from them thinking was that

638
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:18.119
<v Speaker 1>a saint?

639
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:20.440
<v Speaker 2>Right?

640
00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:24.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's so beautiful. But even just the concept,

641
00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:26.719
<v Speaker 1>like if you told me, yeah, I want to become

642
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:29.800
<v Speaker 1>a saint, I think that's really nice. Justin but aren't

643
00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:32.480
<v Speaker 1>you supposed to be aren't you supposed to be a

644
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:34.920
<v Speaker 1>little bit of a saint? Would never say that, right?

645
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:39.800
<v Speaker 1>It almost feels like lacking in humility to strive for sainthood.

646
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:42.920
<v Speaker 1>But I mean you use the word try the other

647
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:49.719
<v Speaker 1>the other day earlier, and for some reason, that word

648
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:52.039
<v Speaker 1>just I cling to it. When you said it, I

649
00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:56.920
<v Speaker 1>was like you talked about trying. It's like like wearing

650
00:36:56.960 --> 00:36:59.960
<v Speaker 1>something that looks ridiculous and you can't make fun of

651
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:05.440
<v Speaker 1>me because I know it's ridiculous ironic that everybody's everybody

652
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:11.760
<v Speaker 1>everybody is kind of intentionally ironic because trying isn't cool. Right,

653
00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:14.400
<v Speaker 1>If I try and fail, then you can make fun

654
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.280
<v Speaker 1>of me, But if I'm ironically dressed, you can't make

655
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:19.719
<v Speaker 1>fun of me because the joke's on you, right, And

656
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:24.480
<v Speaker 1>I think that that kind of ironic approach to the world,

657
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:31.960
<v Speaker 1>and also with the nihilistic view of the world. I mean,

658
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.320
<v Speaker 1>you want to talk about soul sickness, but the real

659
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.960
<v Speaker 1>key is just to try.

660
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:39.360
<v Speaker 2>One of the best, one of the great teachings that

661
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:42.599
<v Speaker 2>I learned. It's very simple and it makes sense. It's

662
00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:48.320
<v Speaker 2>it's wonderful. God doesn't require perfection. He wants progress. And

663
00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:50.800
<v Speaker 2>I really believe that, you know, we we kind of

664
00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:52.840
<v Speaker 2>get hung up on this idea that God needs us

665
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:54.880
<v Speaker 2>to be perfect in the moment and it's never going

666
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:57.599
<v Speaker 2>to happen. I know that Christ says that, but I

667
00:37:57.639 --> 00:37:59.800
<v Speaker 2>think that a lot of things that Christ said were

668
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:03.119
<v Speaker 2>extreme to kind of push us, you know, not you know,

669
00:38:03.159 --> 00:38:04.960
<v Speaker 2>we're not supposed to cut off our hand. We sin

670
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:07.000
<v Speaker 2>with it, you know, but we're supposed to think in

671
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:11.000
<v Speaker 2>that fervent way, you know. And I think that the

672
00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.639
<v Speaker 2>progress is what we need, you know, as long as

673
00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:18.400
<v Speaker 2>we're moving forward towards Him. That's the ladder we're climbing.

674
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:21.800
<v Speaker 2>We're climbing, you know, as long as we're on that ladder.

675
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:24.119
<v Speaker 2>And my wife has a funny way of putting it.

676
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:27.079
<v Speaker 2>She's like, I'm sometimes clinging to the bottom rung with

677
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:31.480
<v Speaker 2>one fingernail, you know, Yeah, And that's how we feel

678
00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:33.719
<v Speaker 2>often is like, but we're still on it, you know,

679
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:36.400
<v Speaker 2>you're clinging no matter what. We're not going to give up.

680
00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:39.159
<v Speaker 2>And there's Chris at the top of that ladder, and

681
00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:41.760
<v Speaker 2>we're we're not taking our gaze off.

682
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:45.079
<v Speaker 1>Of him exactly. I mean, you took the words out

683
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:47.519
<v Speaker 1>of my mouth. We're not taking the gaze off of him.

684
00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:51.360
<v Speaker 1>Because when we talk about sin, which you talk about

685
00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:54.559
<v Speaker 1>the meaning being missing the mark, I mean, just stick

686
00:38:54.639 --> 00:38:57.719
<v Speaker 1>with the archery. I mean, you're trying missing the mark.

687
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:04.119
<v Speaker 1>Where sin goes wrong is when you stop trying to

688
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:08.760
<v Speaker 1>climb the ladder towards Christ and you start looking at justin.

689
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:11.199
<v Speaker 1>You missed the mark over there, I mean, unless it's

690
00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:14.880
<v Speaker 1>out of love, a corrective out of love. Amen, we

691
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.639
<v Speaker 1>need that. I need you, you need me. I mean

692
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:21.800
<v Speaker 1>we're not saved alone, which is also a very dangerous

693
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:25.199
<v Speaker 1>paradigm to fall into, whether it's you know me and

694
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:28.199
<v Speaker 1>my Bible or Jesus is my buddy, or any of

695
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:31.280
<v Speaker 1>these kind of false counterfeit Christ. So sin can be

696
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:35.039
<v Speaker 1>dangerous when it's finger pointing, but it can be helpful

697
00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:38.599
<v Speaker 1>when it's used as a tool to keep progressing, to

698
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:41.199
<v Speaker 1>keep trying, to keep trying to hit the mark.

699
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:45.519
<v Speaker 2>Saint Anthony, I put this in that in my book,

700
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:49.079
<v Speaker 2>Saint Anthony says, without temptation, no one can be saved.

701
00:39:50.199 --> 00:39:55.039
<v Speaker 2>Amazing idea. When you hear that, you're like, that's not Christian,

702
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:59.079
<v Speaker 2>and you're like, that is Christian. It's almost like, you know,

703
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:04.000
<v Speaker 2>science is dedicated on failure and through multiple amounts, you know,

704
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:06.880
<v Speaker 2>times of failure, we come to an outcome that we

705
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:09.480
<v Speaker 2>find the truth. You know, the same applies to the

706
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:14.119
<v Speaker 2>spiritual life. We need failure, we need temptation. We need

707
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:16.599
<v Speaker 2>these things to shine a light on the areas that

708
00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:21.039
<v Speaker 2>we need to work. Otherwise, why we get we soften

709
00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:23.280
<v Speaker 2>up into complacency and apathy.

710
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:28.079
<v Speaker 1>We're not zombies, and you know we have free will.

711
00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:33.079
<v Speaker 1>And in order to be tempted, you need the choice.

712
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:37.400
<v Speaker 1>And in order to truly love, you have to if

713
00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:40.519
<v Speaker 1>you have no choice but to love me, I mean,

714
00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:41.639
<v Speaker 1>is that really love at all?

715
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:43.800
<v Speaker 2>We need to fall. We need to fall too, and

716
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:46.599
<v Speaker 2>I know that that's not fun or anything. But there's

717
00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:48.519
<v Speaker 2>a great quote in the Desert Fathers. I don't think

718
00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:50.559
<v Speaker 2>I put this in the book, but there's a great

719
00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:53.239
<v Speaker 2>story in The Desert Fathers where this monk, younger monk,

720
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:55.679
<v Speaker 2>is going to abba SISSOI is saying, dude, I keep

721
00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:58.079
<v Speaker 2>falling and getting back up, like you keep saying falling,

722
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.639
<v Speaker 2>getting back up, falling, getting back up, Like how long

723
00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:03.159
<v Speaker 2>do I do this? And he said until you're proficient

724
00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:08.639
<v Speaker 2>at falling or getting back up. Yeah, that's a great answer.

725
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.719
<v Speaker 2>You're like, okay, all right, I'll go back and keep

726
00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:12.079
<v Speaker 2>doing it. Yeah.

727
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:14.519
<v Speaker 1>And you know, it was only a couple of years

728
00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:17.840
<v Speaker 1>ago that somebody on a podcast said that, you know,

729
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:22.199
<v Speaker 1>evil does not exist on its own. Nothing evil exists

730
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:26.079
<v Speaker 1>in isolation. It is always the opposite of something good.

731
00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:30.599
<v Speaker 1>It's a perversion of the good. And when you think

732
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:35.400
<v Speaker 1>about sin and the passions, they're not fun to think about.

733
00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:37.719
<v Speaker 1>And to be honest with you, when I I was

734
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:40.760
<v Speaker 1>so excited to read your book and I I messaged

735
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:44.800
<v Speaker 1>you immediately after finishing the introduction, I was like, your

736
00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:46.679
<v Speaker 1>book's incredible. You're like, oh, well, the rest of it

737
00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:52.199
<v Speaker 1>sucks or something like that, something humble, but I just

738
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:54.639
<v Speaker 1>couldn't wait. But at the same time, I was like,

739
00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:57.639
<v Speaker 1>this is gonna be a bit of a downer, right,

740
00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:01.280
<v Speaker 1>It's gonna be about sin. I'm a very peaceful guy.

741
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:06.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm a sensitive guy. I've never been very into

742
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:10.320
<v Speaker 1>fighting or you know, anything like that violence. I'm just

743
00:42:11.239 --> 00:42:14.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm chill. And so the whole concept of fighting and sin,

744
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:20.079
<v Speaker 1>it feels like a downer, right, But your book could

745
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:22.920
<v Speaker 1>not have been more uplifting. And the section on the

746
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:27.679
<v Speaker 1>virtues or to God, I mean, before we get into that,

747
00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:30.039
<v Speaker 1>let's talk about the mindset of a fighter and why

748
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:33.199
<v Speaker 1>that's necessary. And even though that is jarring to me

749
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:36.559
<v Speaker 1>because I'm I don't want to fight, why is it

750
00:42:36.679 --> 00:42:38.400
<v Speaker 1>necessary to have the mindset of a fighter?

751
00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Well, first of all, we everything is everything in

752
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:48.400
<v Speaker 2>the book is predicated on the idea that there is

753
00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:51.159
<v Speaker 2>a God. And it's not a question a philosophical question

754
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:54.960
<v Speaker 2>about things or meaning of life or ay, you believe

755
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.920
<v Speaker 2>in God, you love God. You know. Next is you

756
00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:00.320
<v Speaker 2>believe you have a soul. So once you have those

757
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:02.199
<v Speaker 2>two things, you have to believe your soul is worth

758
00:43:02.199 --> 00:43:06.599
<v Speaker 2>fighting for. And everyone knows that their soul is in

759
00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:08.760
<v Speaker 2>a battle. We were all in a battle all the time,

760
00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:12.920
<v Speaker 2>like saying Nikolai Vilamirevitch wisely says, my whole life is

761
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.800
<v Speaker 2>a battle between me and myself, me as I am

762
00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:18.159
<v Speaker 2>and me as God wants me to be. We're all

763
00:43:18.199 --> 00:43:22.599
<v Speaker 2>in that, and that includes my atheist friends. They're still fighting.

764
00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:26.599
<v Speaker 2>They're still trying not to do something crazy or offend somebody,

765
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:29.679
<v Speaker 2>or say something mean, or go out and hurt somebody.

766
00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:32.880
<v Speaker 2>They're still holding back, you know, and they're still trying

767
00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:36.039
<v Speaker 2>to control themselves. But the Church gives us a massive

768
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:38.199
<v Speaker 2>way of viewing all of that that's much broader than

769
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:41.840
<v Speaker 2>just kind of trying to function function, you know. The

770
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:44.519
<v Speaker 2>mindset of the fighter in the book I draw this

771
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:48.320
<v Speaker 2>from the book Unseen Warfare by you know, it was

772
00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:50.960
<v Speaker 2>edited by Theofan the Recluse and Nico Demus of the

773
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:54.440
<v Speaker 2>of the Holy Mountain, but it was written by Lorenzo's Polly,

774
00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:57.239
<v Speaker 2>which was a Catholic monastic. In that book, he says

775
00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:00.079
<v Speaker 2>the mindset of the fighter must be never rely on yourself,

776
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:04.440
<v Speaker 2>have a daring trust in God, and always pray those

777
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:08.239
<v Speaker 2>are interesting, never rely on yourself. Like that's a really

778
00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:10.960
<v Speaker 2>hard thing for a modern American to wrap their head around,

779
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:15.280
<v Speaker 2>because I personally was taught and raised to only trust yourself,

780
00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:19.519
<v Speaker 2>but to relinquish that and to trust in God and

781
00:44:19.639 --> 00:44:22.639
<v Speaker 2>also the Church and the sacramental life of the Church

782
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:26.920
<v Speaker 2>and your guide or spiritual father as opposed to yourself,

783
00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:31.159
<v Speaker 2>is liberating way to let go of all of our

784
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:34.360
<v Speaker 2>preconceived notions that are causing us so much pain and suffering,

785
00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:37.679
<v Speaker 2>and to learn a new way, you know, to having

786
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:40.440
<v Speaker 2>daring trust in God is the other disposition of the fighter,

787
00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:47.480
<v Speaker 2>to completely and fully trust whatever is happening, whether it's

788
00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:49.519
<v Speaker 2>good or bad. We know that God is fully in

789
00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:53.360
<v Speaker 2>control and either allowing things to happen or think things

790
00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:58.400
<v Speaker 2>are happening at his discretion. And then obviously praying without

791
00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:01.039
<v Speaker 2>ceasing is like a given, you know. The disposition of

792
00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:04.199
<v Speaker 2>the fighter must be one. That doesn't mean you're perfect

793
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:07.119
<v Speaker 2>in prayer, you've mastered prayer, or you're you know, some

794
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:08.840
<v Speaker 2>guy on you know doing Jesus prayer all the time.

795
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:12.159
<v Speaker 2>But you're trying again, You're trying, You're trying to keep

796
00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:15.639
<v Speaker 2>reverting yourself back to prayer. That's why when we switch

797
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:19.519
<v Speaker 2>in the book from all this the devices and passions

798
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:22.840
<v Speaker 2>and sin, once you've switched the page over to the virtues,

799
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:27.400
<v Speaker 2>you feel this sense of relief. Amen, mercy, I made

800
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:29.719
<v Speaker 2>it through this tough stuff which I had to go through.

801
00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:33.159
<v Speaker 2>Now let's talk about how this stuff is supposed to

802
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:36.400
<v Speaker 2>flourish in my soul and make me joyful and content

803
00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:39.719
<v Speaker 2>and happy with the grace of God moving through my life,

804
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:43.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, and that's where the virtues kick in.

805
00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:47.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, I told, well, I've told several people this since

806
00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:50.400
<v Speaker 1>I finished your book. In trying to describe it, I thought,

807
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:54.039
<v Speaker 1>do you remember I think it was Bennett maybe back

808
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:56.159
<v Speaker 1>at Bennett the Book of Virtue.

809
00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:57.280
<v Speaker 2>I love that book.

810
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well you just wrote the modern version. Yeah.

811
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:02.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's funny you would say that that book is

812
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:06.679
<v Speaker 2>a major influence in my life. Actually, really absolutely, I

813
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:09.639
<v Speaker 2>love that book and the way it's presented. I love

814
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:10.960
<v Speaker 2>it absolutely, a man.

815
00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:14.719
<v Speaker 1>What Yeah, when I finished your book, or maybe midway

816
00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:16.920
<v Speaker 1>through whenever, I was like, this is like the Book

817
00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:20.280
<v Speaker 1>of Virtues but for a modern reader, and kind of

818
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:23.360
<v Speaker 1>like like we all need those modern adaptations, right, because

819
00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:25.360
<v Speaker 1>I haven't looked, honest to God, I haven't looked at

820
00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:27.199
<v Speaker 1>the Book of Virtue since I was maybe ten eleven

821
00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:30.119
<v Speaker 1>years old. But I still remember it and I remember,

822
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:32.639
<v Speaker 1>like you loving it, but it was kind of like

823
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:36.719
<v Speaker 1>old timey right, right, that's right, and yours is much more.

824
00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:39.679
<v Speaker 1>It's for the modern the modern fighter.

825
00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:43.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, he's good at gathering these stories and putting

826
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:47.880
<v Speaker 2>together that tell these narratives about virtue that are accessible.

827
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:51.840
<v Speaker 2>The Church Fathers are ruthless in how they present these things.

828
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:54.360
<v Speaker 2>They're ruthless and how they present the passions, and they're

829
00:46:54.440 --> 00:46:58.239
<v Speaker 2>ruthless and how they present the virtues. They introduced the

830
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:03.039
<v Speaker 2>machinery behind it, the mechanics of how this stuff is

831
00:47:03.079 --> 00:47:05.519
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be in our life, and they really confront

832
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:08.760
<v Speaker 2>us with this stuff. That book is inspiring, but the

833
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:14.679
<v Speaker 2>Church Fathers are confrontational, like push us to the edge. Man, Well,

834
00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:17.719
<v Speaker 2>we need to be pushed, oh, one hundred percent. Yeah,

835
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:20.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's self control is like you know, we

836
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.400
<v Speaker 2>talked about detachment. That's huge. Self control for the modern

837
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.079
<v Speaker 2>person is one of the things that I'm seeing a

838
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:30.119
<v Speaker 2>lot of people, especially men, young men, struggling with the

839
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:34.920
<v Speaker 2>idea of controlling yourself. Like in the Greek philosophy and

840
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:37.960
<v Speaker 2>with the Greek set of virtues, self control was huge.

841
00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:43.519
<v Speaker 2>Self control was what that's what defined a man. And

842
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:46.280
<v Speaker 2>our culture is the opposite. You want to get high

843
00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:49.480
<v Speaker 2>and play video games and barely pull off your job

844
00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:54.440
<v Speaker 2>and have a clunky relationship with some girl. I mean,

845
00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:58.960
<v Speaker 2>self control is what a man should be. It's not fighting,

846
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:03.480
<v Speaker 2>it's not standing puffing up your chest. It is having

847
00:48:03.559 --> 00:48:08.639
<v Speaker 2>that quiet self control and that virtue alone. When somebody

848
00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:11.360
<v Speaker 2>starts really pushing on that one and trying to implement

849
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:13.440
<v Speaker 2>it in their life, they're seeing that they have to

850
00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:17.400
<v Speaker 2>they have to apply it all over the place. Self control.

851
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:21.280
<v Speaker 2>With my Let's say i have issues with my parents

852
00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:23.559
<v Speaker 2>and how they raise me, and I'm angry about that.

853
00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:27.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to exert self control in this zone and

854
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:29.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to let the anger bother me. I'm

855
00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:31.800
<v Speaker 2>gonna have I'm going to be detached from it, you know.

856
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Or the person in line, or the person that's you know,

857
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:39.320
<v Speaker 2>in the car driving by me and he's rushing past me,

858
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:41.480
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. I can be angry and upset, or I

859
00:48:41.559 --> 00:48:45.079
<v Speaker 2>can just have self control. And also with food and

860
00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:48.239
<v Speaker 2>with all these other different things. Self control, the virtue

861
00:48:48.280 --> 00:48:52.159
<v Speaker 2>of self control is huge. It's easy. It's easier to

862
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:55.960
<v Speaker 2>try to implement other ones, like kindness. You know, you know,

863
00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:58.440
<v Speaker 2>most people try to be kind, even though in our

864
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:02.840
<v Speaker 2>parts were not neuosity and gratefulness is another one that's

865
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:06.199
<v Speaker 2>really important for modern people. We get stuck in our

866
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:11.159
<v Speaker 2>we get justified in our moods and our views of

867
00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:15.800
<v Speaker 2>things that are not grateful, and we feel like we're

868
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:20.280
<v Speaker 2>justified in these areas and we're it's just causing us discord.

869
00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:23.239
<v Speaker 2>But the virtue of gratitude, once we realize I'm going

870
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:26.679
<v Speaker 2>to be grateful for everything, the good, the bad, the

871
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:29.000
<v Speaker 2>people in my life that are difficult, and the people

872
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:33.119
<v Speaker 2>that are not gratitude the virtue of gratitude, you know. Obviously,

873
00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:37.840
<v Speaker 2>love is a huge one. Love is a grossly misunderstood

874
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:42.159
<v Speaker 2>by the modern American and goes back to the Beatles.

875
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:44.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to throw it all on the Beatles,

876
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:48.159
<v Speaker 2>but as an example, there was a shift in America

877
00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:52.599
<v Speaker 2>where love became something that it is absolutely not. It's

878
00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:55.559
<v Speaker 2>this infatuation and that that is not it. You know,

879
00:49:55.719 --> 00:49:59.079
<v Speaker 2>in the Greek there's several words for love, and aros

880
00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:03.039
<v Speaker 2>is the one that we focus on and we kind

881
00:50:03.039 --> 00:50:07.320
<v Speaker 2>of tend to forget that real love is the agape

882
00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:10.679
<v Speaker 2>love where it's the husband taking care of the wife

883
00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:15.440
<v Speaker 2>and she has a terminal illness, she has ms shows

884
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:18.840
<v Speaker 2>up every morning every day, takes care of her, deals

885
00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:22.519
<v Speaker 2>with the harsh realities of that, and puts her to

886
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:26.239
<v Speaker 2>bed and prays for her and loves her through this suffering.

887
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:28.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, that's not a Beatles song and it would

888
00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:32.559
<v Speaker 2>never go well on the radio. Yeah.

889
00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:37.360
<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of these words right, like one

890
00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:39.239
<v Speaker 1>word that I wanted to ask you to kind of

891
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:44.400
<v Speaker 1>dive into, because like sin, like love, there are words

892
00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:45.280
<v Speaker 1>that we use.

893
00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:48.639
<v Speaker 2>But or grace.

894
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:52.159
<v Speaker 1>I mean I talked to Martin Shaw about that. I

895
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:56.880
<v Speaker 1>named my son Grace and I still don't understand it.

896
00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:00.519
<v Speaker 1>And I said, it's like that fish that that just

897
00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:02.639
<v Speaker 1>you're trying to hold it and it keeps slipping out

898
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:05.400
<v Speaker 1>of your hands. And his response was, may it ever

899
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:08.760
<v Speaker 1>slip out of your hands? That we can't just stretch

900
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:13.559
<v Speaker 1>grace out on a rack of exegesus like it's grace, right,

901
00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:16.480
<v Speaker 1>Some of these words are if we fully understood that.

902
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:22.239
<v Speaker 1>I think it's the life, our life's mission to just

903
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:26.639
<v Speaker 1>keep trying. Like you had it in your book that

904
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:31.639
<v Speaker 1>the process of trying to work out the will of

905
00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:36.400
<v Speaker 1>God is how you know God. And even though it's frustrating,

906
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:40.280
<v Speaker 1>and even though you keep falling and getting that's the

907
00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:43.519
<v Speaker 1>whole point that the obstacle is the path.

908
00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:47.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what you're pointing out is the will of understanding

909
00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:52.360
<v Speaker 2>the will of God in our life. That's my conclusion.

910
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:55.760
<v Speaker 2>And you know, trying to live an Orthodox life, trying

911
00:51:55.920 --> 00:52:01.000
<v Speaker 2>clunkily to live an orthodox life, a Christian life. When

912
00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:04.199
<v Speaker 2>I was younger, I you know, I wanted God to

913
00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:06.159
<v Speaker 2>tell me his will, tell me what to do, tell

914
00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:08.199
<v Speaker 2>me what decisions to make, and make it clear, just

915
00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:10.679
<v Speaker 2>tell me, you know, just like make it easy. And

916
00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:15.360
<v Speaker 2>I've learned over time that that's not how it works.

917
00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:17.719
<v Speaker 2>And like you said, the whole point of everything is

918
00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:20.519
<v Speaker 2>that relationship with Him to grow and to build, like

919
00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:23.960
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned in the book, and the understanding the will

920
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:25.880
<v Speaker 2>of God. That we have to practice virtue. If we

921
00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:28.360
<v Speaker 2>want to understand God's holy will, we have to be

922
00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:31.159
<v Speaker 2>striving at least for holiness. Doesn't mean we have to

923
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:33.199
<v Speaker 2>be a holy person in the moment, but we have

924
00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:35.039
<v Speaker 2>to be at least working towards it. The more that

925
00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:38.199
<v Speaker 2>we activate the virtues in our life, the more that

926
00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:41.400
<v Speaker 2>we can try to understand God's will, and the more

927
00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:43.599
<v Speaker 2>that we're praying and rejecting our own will, like just

928
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:46.039
<v Speaker 2>shutting down our own will, the more his will becomes

929
00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:48.920
<v Speaker 2>more parent. I use the analogy of the cell tower.

930
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:51.639
<v Speaker 2>The farther you are from the cell tower, the harder

931
00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:54.360
<v Speaker 2>it is to hear to understand the words of the reception.

932
00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:57.199
<v Speaker 2>Closer you are to the cell tower, the more you

933
00:52:57.239 --> 00:52:59.599
<v Speaker 2>can actually hear it. So how can I, as a

934
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:02.960
<v Speaker 2>teenage kid, expect to hear God's will when I'm living

935
00:53:03.639 --> 00:53:08.559
<v Speaker 2>entrenched in sin and dysfunction. You know, how am I

936
00:53:08.599 --> 00:53:09.079
<v Speaker 2>going to hear it?

937
00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:09.440
<v Speaker 1>You know?

938
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:13.360
<v Speaker 2>The door, the door really impacts me a lot. You know,

939
00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:16.320
<v Speaker 2>in the in the New Testament, he says I am

940
00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:18.840
<v Speaker 2>the door. He says, knock on the door and it

941
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:22.159
<v Speaker 2>will be open to you. These are really interesting ideas,

942
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:23.639
<v Speaker 2>But at the end of the day, I think that

943
00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:27.199
<v Speaker 2>discerning his will is really like you said just now,

944
00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:31.119
<v Speaker 2>It's not about the do this or do that. It's

945
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:34.920
<v Speaker 2>about the relationship building with God. That is what the

946
00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:37.440
<v Speaker 2>whole point of his will is. And so if we

947
00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:39.320
<v Speaker 2>choose to go to college, or if we choose this

948
00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:42.079
<v Speaker 2>surgery or not or whatever, all that stuff's good and

949
00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:44.400
<v Speaker 2>we have to make those choices. But at the end

950
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:47.199
<v Speaker 2>of the day, he's the door. He is the door,

951
00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:52.320
<v Speaker 2>and the door dissolves, it dissolves away, and next thing

952
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:54.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're just in his arms. And that's really

953
00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:55.199
<v Speaker 2>what the whole point is.

954
00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:58.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, somebody, somebody told me, you know, we had we

955
00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:02.280
<v Speaker 1>had somebody visiting our church for the first time, and

956
00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:05.960
<v Speaker 1>one of my friends said that, I think it's Saint

957
00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:10.320
<v Speaker 1>John the theologian, that his icon. It's not him with

958
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:13.920
<v Speaker 1>a scroll, it's not him with a book. It's him

959
00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:18.400
<v Speaker 1>with his head leaned on Christ. That's theology, right, And

960
00:54:18.559 --> 00:54:21.360
<v Speaker 1>we've got it so twisted around that it's just this

961
00:54:21.559 --> 00:54:24.119
<v Speaker 1>set of ideas that we can figure out, that we can,

962
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:29.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, finally describe God. And it's just it's that

963
00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:34.320
<v Speaker 1>relationship and not in the watered down Western version of

964
00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:37.880
<v Speaker 1>a relationship with God where he's kind of like your buddy.

965
00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:42.039
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I really thank God. I've from a young

966
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:48.400
<v Speaker 1>age kind of felt very uncomfortable with the language that

967
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:52.599
<v Speaker 1>a lot of especially in the nineties, I felt like

968
00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:56.280
<v Speaker 1>modern evangelicals were like throwing God on a T shirt

969
00:54:56.480 --> 00:54:59.519
<v Speaker 1>and with like almost like beer slogans. I mean, the

970
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:02.400
<v Speaker 1>this blood's for you. I don't know if you remember that,

971
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:08.440
<v Speaker 1>but it it it's terrible, and it's a watering down

972
00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:12.400
<v Speaker 1>of the Almighty in a way that just and I

973
00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:15.039
<v Speaker 1>think a lot of it becomes Hey, if he's your buddy,

974
00:55:15.159 --> 00:55:18.039
<v Speaker 1>just like justin, you know he gets it. You know

975
00:55:18.119 --> 00:55:20.960
<v Speaker 1>he's got to say. It's just we need to have

976
00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:25.039
<v Speaker 1>that healthy fear, not fear like sinners in the hands

977
00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:28.039
<v Speaker 1>of an angry God. Fear, but fear respect all wonder

978
00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:33.119
<v Speaker 1>the leaning on and you talk about the cell tower,

979
00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:36.800
<v Speaker 1>I've used a similar analogy in my own mind, where

980
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:41.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, I was on Mount Athos this summer and

981
00:55:41.639 --> 00:55:46.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm newly Orthodox, and so I'm still recalibrating. I mean,

982
00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:49.639
<v Speaker 1>you talked about your upbringing and you still bring I'm

983
00:55:49.639 --> 00:55:51.480
<v Speaker 1>sure you still have a lot of the stuff that

984
00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:53.880
<v Speaker 1>you that you carried with you as a young person,

985
00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:57.079
<v Speaker 1>and it never really leaves you. You're constantly trying to

986
00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:00.760
<v Speaker 1>retrain your senses in one way or another, and I

987
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:05.079
<v Speaker 1>always pray for discernment to help me understand it. I

988
00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:06.920
<v Speaker 1>know this is where I need to be. I know

989
00:56:07.159 --> 00:56:11.000
<v Speaker 1>this is the answer. But my bunny ears, you know,

990
00:56:11.079 --> 00:56:16.039
<v Speaker 1>the old TV antenna bunny ears, they're not positioned quite

991
00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:18.159
<v Speaker 1>right yet. So I'm getting a clear sick I can

992
00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:20.800
<v Speaker 1>see I know that, like, let's say I'm trying to

993
00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:23.920
<v Speaker 1>watch the Dallas Cowboys play the Green Bay Packers. I

994
00:56:23.960 --> 00:56:24.760
<v Speaker 1>see it's on the screen.

995
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:25.559
<v Speaker 2>I see score.

996
00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:28.119
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of fuzzy. I just have to get it right,

997
00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:30.599
<v Speaker 1>you know. I know that this is the path I

998
00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:33.840
<v Speaker 1>just have to work on myself. And like you said,

999
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:37.920
<v Speaker 1>the section of your book on the virtues, I was

1000
00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:40.280
<v Speaker 1>so excited as I was reading it. I was I

1001
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:43.840
<v Speaker 1>didn't understand why. But and this is going to sound

1002
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:49.079
<v Speaker 1>really silly, but something clicked to my mind that these

1003
00:56:49.119 --> 00:56:52.880
<v Speaker 1>are things we practice the virtues right, and it clicks.

1004
00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:57.679
<v Speaker 1>We could practice them like anything else. Like if you're

1005
00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:01.519
<v Speaker 1>a musician and I'm like, man, justin you're really good.

1006
00:57:01.559 --> 00:57:05.159
<v Speaker 1>How'd you get so good my practice? Now, maybe you've

1007
00:57:05.159 --> 00:57:07.960
<v Speaker 1>got an innate tendency for it, like, but we all

1008
00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:13.000
<v Speaker 1>of us have that. Like I am much more outgoing.

1009
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:16.639
<v Speaker 1>That's my innate tendency. I don't have to work at that.

1010
00:57:17.320 --> 00:57:21.360
<v Speaker 1>So the virtues that stem from that ability, Glory to God.

1011
00:57:21.480 --> 00:57:24.199
<v Speaker 1>They're a little bit easier for me, but we all

1012
00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:27.719
<v Speaker 1>have those virtues that don't come as easily. Like you said,

1013
00:57:27.760 --> 00:57:32.360
<v Speaker 1>self control. I wrote down virtues that I want to

1014
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:36.239
<v Speaker 1>work on, and you unknowingly admonished me. I mean that

1015
00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:40.760
<v Speaker 1>the umbrella of self control is much larger than we realize. Right,

1016
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:44.400
<v Speaker 1>It's not just I've got to, you know, have a

1017
00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:46.360
<v Speaker 1>little bit less food on my plate. I mean, it's

1018
00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:51.440
<v Speaker 1>it's all encompassing. But that encourage Now that you talked

1019
00:57:51.440 --> 00:57:56.000
<v Speaker 1>about daring trust in God, well, adding the word daring,

1020
00:57:56.239 --> 00:57:59.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's that's courage right in a way. But

1021
00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:02.519
<v Speaker 1>just this whole concept that the virtues are something that

1022
00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:04.760
<v Speaker 1>we can practice, it excited me.

1023
00:58:06.599 --> 00:58:08.800
<v Speaker 2>There's a good reason why it excited you and why

1024
00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:12.199
<v Speaker 2>it excites me and other people. We don't talk about

1025
00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:15.400
<v Speaker 2>it in our culture at Oh, when I was growing up,

1026
00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:18.079
<v Speaker 2>you're probably too young for this maybe, But when I

1027
00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:19.679
<v Speaker 2>was growing up, the first time I heard the word

1028
00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:25.679
<v Speaker 2>virtue was an advertisement for milk. The advertisement was milk,

1029
00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:28.039
<v Speaker 2>It's a virtue. And somebody has a cup of milk

1030
00:58:28.079 --> 00:58:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and they drink from it and there's a milk mustache.

1031
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:32.440
<v Speaker 2>Milk is a virtue. And I was like, what is

1032
00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:37.119
<v Speaker 2>a virtue? And that's my first hearing of it. And

1033
00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:39.760
<v Speaker 2>that's when I was like ten or twelve, like I

1034
00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:44.159
<v Speaker 2>was older. We are starving ourselves in our culture from

1035
00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:48.960
<v Speaker 2>these things that are so natural for this soul. It's

1036
00:58:49.039 --> 00:58:51.599
<v Speaker 2>really tragic. It's actually very tragic. They should be a

1037
00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:55.239
<v Speaker 2>major part of our culture, but they're all supplanted by

1038
00:58:55.400 --> 00:58:58.599
<v Speaker 2>all of this nonsense, all this chaos, all this media.

1039
00:58:58.840 --> 00:59:02.719
<v Speaker 2>Media has zero in in these virtues. But I think

1040
00:59:02.760 --> 00:59:06.760
<v Speaker 2>it's fascinating to notice that when we practice the virtues

1041
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:10.119
<v Speaker 2>deliberately and we're working on them, there, like I say

1042
00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:12.119
<v Speaker 2>in the book, they're like a tapestry. You're not working

1043
00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:14.320
<v Speaker 2>on one or the other necessarily. Sometimes we have to

1044
00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:16.639
<v Speaker 2>kind of focus on one. But they're kind of a

1045
00:59:16.679 --> 00:59:18.760
<v Speaker 2>thing that we try to integrate throughout our day, and

1046
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:22.440
<v Speaker 2>we have thousands and thousands of moments every day where

1047
00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:25.280
<v Speaker 2>we have the opportunity to work, to practice theeds, to

1048
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:27.800
<v Speaker 2>work on them. They happen all the time, and they're

1049
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:30.719
<v Speaker 2>happening a lot of the time in our thoughts. Virtues

1050
00:59:31.039 --> 00:59:33.519
<v Speaker 2>activated in our thinking all the time, and we don't

1051
00:59:33.559 --> 00:59:36.639
<v Speaker 2>realize that because we're so stuck in our thinking patterns

1052
00:59:36.679 --> 00:59:41.840
<v Speaker 2>that are not virtue oriented. They're more self oriented. And

1053
00:59:41.960 --> 00:59:44.559
<v Speaker 2>this is what I think. The church fathers, especially Saint

1054
00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Besol the Great, talks about prayer, unceasing prayer. He talks

1055
00:59:48.760 --> 00:59:51.360
<v Speaker 2>about it as being not a thing that you do,

1056
00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:54.480
<v Speaker 2>which is it's important that we should show up and

1057
00:59:54.559 --> 00:59:57.239
<v Speaker 2>read the prayer or say the prayer whatever. But his

1058
00:59:57.599 --> 01:00:01.760
<v Speaker 2>whole point is that prayer should be a way of life, yes, state,

1059
01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:05.360
<v Speaker 2>And I think the virtues are the answer to that.

1060
01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:09.920
<v Speaker 2>When we are practicing the virtues, we are practicing a

1061
01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:12.960
<v Speaker 2>form of prayer in a certain sense. It doesn't have

1062
01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:15.679
<v Speaker 2>to have words attached to it. But when we show

1063
01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:18.440
<v Speaker 2>kindness to a stranger in a drive through, when we're

1064
01:00:18.440 --> 01:00:21.199
<v Speaker 2>getting food and we say, you know what, you have

1065
01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:25.639
<v Speaker 2>a beautiful smile, we change somebody's day in a second.

1066
01:00:26.280 --> 01:00:28.960
<v Speaker 2>And that brought virtue and prayer into the world in

1067
01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:31.480
<v Speaker 2>a way that we don't really think about. I think

1068
01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:34.679
<v Speaker 2>that that's the key why virtues are so exciting, is

1069
01:00:34.760 --> 01:00:37.320
<v Speaker 2>that they are natural to the soul, and the soul

1070
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:39.400
<v Speaker 2>is starved from them, and when we implement them, the

1071
01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:40.719
<v Speaker 2>soul is joyful for that.

1072
01:00:42.400 --> 01:00:45.199
<v Speaker 1>No, you wrote that we're born for this, I mean

1073
01:00:45.559 --> 01:00:48.800
<v Speaker 1>we were created to experience the virtues because as we

1074
01:00:49.760 --> 01:00:52.519
<v Speaker 1>practice them and get better at them and see it,

1075
01:00:53.320 --> 01:00:57.360
<v Speaker 1>and we're not alone. Right when I see virtue in you,

1076
01:00:58.559 --> 01:01:00.719
<v Speaker 1>as long as it's not as long as I don't

1077
01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:06.119
<v Speaker 1>stumble into the the passion of envy. It's beautiful and

1078
01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:08.920
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's the march mark of wisdom and

1079
01:01:09.400 --> 01:01:14.360
<v Speaker 1>maturity is when you embrace the virtue of others and

1080
01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:17.639
<v Speaker 1>I and you love to see it. I mean, you

1081
01:01:17.719 --> 01:01:26.960
<v Speaker 1>talked about kindness like almost everybody loves kindness like it.

1082
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:32.960
<v Speaker 1>But I mean, as I've gotten into this podcast world,

1083
01:01:33.360 --> 01:01:35.960
<v Speaker 1>you start realizing. I mean, we all kind of intuitively

1084
01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:41.440
<v Speaker 1>know it, but how much more than negativity travels and

1085
01:01:43.719 --> 01:01:47.679
<v Speaker 1>my story. I grew up in the world of apologetics.

1086
01:01:49.239 --> 01:01:51.840
<v Speaker 1>My dad had a large radio program. It was all

1087
01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:56.639
<v Speaker 1>about questions and answers and apologetics and I hated it.

1088
01:01:58.000 --> 01:01:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I hated it.

1089
01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:04.920
<v Speaker 1>It drow apologetics a defense of the faith that it

1090
01:02:05.119 --> 01:02:10.360
<v Speaker 1>fenced the faith for me. Because now that I believe

1091
01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:15.679
<v Speaker 1>that apologetics as as an older man, I understand the

1092
01:02:16.039 --> 01:02:21.159
<v Speaker 1>purpose of apologetics when properly utilized. We should all be

1093
01:02:21.239 --> 01:02:24.920
<v Speaker 1>able to defend the faith that we have or explain it.

1094
01:02:26.480 --> 01:02:30.599
<v Speaker 1>But I think so much of the apologetic world has

1095
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:35.719
<v Speaker 1>ceased defending and started offending. It's going out and attacking,

1096
01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:41.599
<v Speaker 1>and there's so much nastiness. I see that, and it's

1097
01:02:41.719 --> 01:02:51.880
<v Speaker 1>something that really really it hurts my soul when I

1098
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:55.440
<v Speaker 1>see it, right, I mean, you talk about I could

1099
01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:57.960
<v Speaker 1>see it in your face, and I can see the

1100
01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:00.440
<v Speaker 1>love for Christ in your face, especially when you talk

1101
01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:03.440
<v Speaker 1>about things like the virtues and you get so excited

1102
01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:07.000
<v Speaker 1>because you want to share it. That's an apologetic. That's Hey,

1103
01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:09.079
<v Speaker 1>I want you to have what I have because it's

1104
01:03:09.119 --> 01:03:12.239
<v Speaker 1>beautiful and I love you and I want you to

1105
01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:16.440
<v Speaker 1>know this and so much and even I mean you're

1106
01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:21.119
<v Speaker 1>well familiar with the concept of orthobros or internet orthodoxy

1107
01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:25.159
<v Speaker 1>or just but it's not isolated to orthodoxy. I mean

1108
01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:30.719
<v Speaker 1>it's all over the Internet under the umbrella of apologetics.

1109
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:34.599
<v Speaker 1>There's such a nastiness that comes out. How do we

1110
01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:39.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm serious when I say it's something that really weighs

1111
01:03:39.199 --> 01:03:45.519
<v Speaker 1>heavy on my soul because it's it's as though, we

1112
01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:48.960
<v Speaker 1>love Christ right and we want him to be well represented,

1113
01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:52.400
<v Speaker 1>and when he's not, it hurts. How do we deal

1114
01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:52.639
<v Speaker 1>with that?

1115
01:03:54.119 --> 01:03:56.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, there's two there's several questions you're asking you Yes,

1116
01:03:56.920 --> 01:04:03.559
<v Speaker 2>sorry one The first one is okay, So for the apologetics,

1117
01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:06.199
<v Speaker 2>I don't go online much because I think it's a

1118
01:04:06.400 --> 01:04:09.679
<v Speaker 2>very toxic, dangerous area world part you know, the cyber

1119
01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:13.960
<v Speaker 2>realm is not very healthy spiritually. I get exposed to

1120
01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:15.639
<v Speaker 2>it through a lot of my God children and through

1121
01:04:15.679 --> 01:04:18.000
<v Speaker 2>friends and through people that I contact, and what I

1122
01:04:19.320 --> 01:04:23.400
<v Speaker 2>learned from them is the gross toxicity that's in there,

1123
01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:26.679
<v Speaker 2>especially within the Orthodox people or world or you know

1124
01:04:27.639 --> 01:04:30.559
<v Speaker 2>people you know judge very very judgy. It sounds like

1125
01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:37.039
<v Speaker 2>out there and very self righteous. The world's longest journey

1126
01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:39.760
<v Speaker 2>is the twelve inches from the mind to the heart. Now,

1127
01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:43.320
<v Speaker 2>when we're talking about apologetics, we're talking about mental fighting.

1128
01:04:45.159 --> 01:04:49.159
<v Speaker 2>We're talking about mental fighting. And yes, Christ exhibited that

1129
01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:51.000
<v Speaker 2>a little bit with the Pharisees, and it was really

1130
01:04:51.519 --> 01:04:54.199
<v Speaker 2>amazing to it. He was like, well, he's God, so

1131
01:04:54.320 --> 01:04:57.039
<v Speaker 2>he's perfect in his thinking. But he was like a

1132
01:04:57.199 --> 01:05:01.400
<v Speaker 2>lawyer the way he would counteract them with their their

1133
01:05:01.880 --> 01:05:04.559
<v Speaker 2>self righteousness, and he would completely undercut them. And it

1134
01:05:04.679 --> 01:05:08.039
<v Speaker 2>was amazing. But I think that we you know, I

1135
01:05:08.079 --> 01:05:10.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know about these apologists online and what theirs, you know,

1136
01:05:10.679 --> 01:05:12.679
<v Speaker 2>how their what their journey is with God or whatever.

1137
01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:15.360
<v Speaker 2>But I really I avoid all that stuff at all

1138
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:19.639
<v Speaker 2>costs because the key to what we're doing here is

1139
01:05:19.719 --> 01:05:22.000
<v Speaker 2>not in their mind, it's in the heart. And the

1140
01:05:22.079 --> 01:05:24.800
<v Speaker 2>church fathers are very explicit in that you can. You

1141
01:05:24.920 --> 01:05:27.880
<v Speaker 2>cannot stink your way into heaven. You cannot argue or

1142
01:05:27.960 --> 01:05:32.440
<v Speaker 2>debate your way into heaven. You have to sink into

1143
01:05:32.519 --> 01:05:36.400
<v Speaker 2>the heart, and that means loving, caring. Kind of all

1144
01:05:36.440 --> 01:05:39.719
<v Speaker 2>these virtues, all these virtues when they're activated, and now

1145
01:05:40.039 --> 01:05:45.239
<v Speaker 2>an apologist, you know, I think that they all these virtues,

1146
01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:48.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, I encourage them to activate all these virtues

1147
01:05:48.079 --> 01:05:51.440
<v Speaker 2>while they're talking to people. But man, this this endless

1148
01:05:51.519 --> 01:05:55.920
<v Speaker 2>talking is really a distraction from the one thing needful.

1149
01:05:57.280 --> 01:05:59.760
<v Speaker 2>It's a massive distraction. I think that's the hurt that

1150
01:05:59.840 --> 01:06:03.519
<v Speaker 2>you feel when you see this this world. I call

1151
01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:07.199
<v Speaker 2>it the underbelly of Christianity. You know, it's this thing

1152
01:06:07.360 --> 01:06:10.239
<v Speaker 2>that it has, this it's justified and that it's trying

1153
01:06:10.280 --> 01:06:14.280
<v Speaker 2>to defend the faith, but it's also gross, and I

1154
01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:19.320
<v Speaker 2>think that it's actually more gratifying for the soul to

1155
01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:23.519
<v Speaker 2>just show somebody kindness and love, you know. Like even listening.

1156
01:06:25.159 --> 01:06:28.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't argue with anybody ever, I just don't like it.

1157
01:06:28.480 --> 01:06:32.000
<v Speaker 2>It's not my thing. I like listening. I really enjoy

1158
01:06:32.119 --> 01:06:34.320
<v Speaker 2>listening to people, whether I agree with them or not.

1159
01:06:35.039 --> 01:06:38.599
<v Speaker 2>And listening, I believe is a form of caring for

1160
01:06:38.719 --> 01:06:42.000
<v Speaker 2>somebody else, you know, and that's kind of not what

1161
01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:48.320
<v Speaker 2>apologetics or debating is. You know. Yes, people need an

1162
01:06:48.360 --> 01:06:51.760
<v Speaker 2>intellectual answer to some of these questions. Theological absolutely, So

1163
01:06:51.800 --> 01:06:55.239
<v Speaker 2>it's fine to try to research and understand things. But

1164
01:06:55.440 --> 01:06:58.559
<v Speaker 2>the endgame is that door. It's that door, It's that

1165
01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:04.400
<v Speaker 2>Christ and the encounter you could. It's just it's not

1166
01:07:04.599 --> 01:07:09.360
<v Speaker 2>found in words and debates. You know. Church fathers aren't

1167
01:07:09.360 --> 01:07:11.239
<v Speaker 2>eat all this stuff, and they perfectly did it, so

1168
01:07:11.320 --> 01:07:13.280
<v Speaker 2>we don't need to do it anymore. Let's just if

1169
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:15.280
<v Speaker 2>you if you have a problem, read the church fathers.

1170
01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:16.199
<v Speaker 2>Otherwise go pray.

1171
01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:23.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's a an artist and he has this mug

1172
01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:26.480
<v Speaker 1>and it's kind of a saint and he's holding a

1173
01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:30.920
<v Speaker 1>scroll and it says, just shut up. And I from

1174
01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:33.360
<v Speaker 1>the moment I saw it, I was, I love that

1175
01:07:33.599 --> 01:07:37.280
<v Speaker 1>so much because we talk too much. Yeah, and and

1176
01:07:37.559 --> 01:07:42.559
<v Speaker 1>and even embarking on the process of podcasting, I thought, man,

1177
01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:47.679
<v Speaker 1>I feel very conflicted about it because on one hand,

1178
01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:54.679
<v Speaker 1>it is helpful for people, and and and I grabbed

1179
01:07:54.719 --> 01:07:56.480
<v Speaker 1>one of the young men in our church who just

1180
01:07:57.079 --> 01:08:00.519
<v Speaker 1>he is just I'm so I use the word proud, notically,

1181
01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:02.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm just proud of him, like I'm proud of my

1182
01:08:02.639 --> 01:08:04.960
<v Speaker 1>son when he does well. I look at him and

1183
01:08:05.039 --> 01:08:07.719
<v Speaker 1>I say, man, I see the light of Christ shining

1184
01:08:07.880 --> 01:08:12.199
<v Speaker 1>through you. And he came to the church through some

1185
01:08:12.320 --> 01:08:16.600
<v Speaker 1>of this negative online you know, discourse, and I asked

1186
01:08:16.640 --> 01:08:20.439
<v Speaker 1>him about it, and he said, when I was watching

1187
01:08:20.479 --> 01:08:24.039
<v Speaker 1>those videos, it's what I needed in the moment, I

1188
01:08:24.119 --> 01:08:26.720
<v Speaker 1>didn't have the love of Christ in my heart, and

1189
01:08:26.960 --> 01:08:28.479
<v Speaker 1>glory to God had led me here. But I don't

1190
01:08:28.479 --> 01:08:29.680
<v Speaker 1>watch those videos anymore.

1191
01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:34.319
<v Speaker 2>And so we're at a dilemma here with this whole

1192
01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:36.720
<v Speaker 2>topic that you're talking about. We're at a very serious

1193
01:08:36.840 --> 01:08:40.319
<v Speaker 2>breaking point in my opinion. Yes, ninety nine percent of

1194
01:08:40.399 --> 01:08:43.600
<v Speaker 2>people that I encounter find Orthodoxy or the Church through

1195
01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:49.079
<v Speaker 2>this cyber realm. They do, and the Gospel has spread

1196
01:08:49.119 --> 01:08:51.920
<v Speaker 2>there and the angels working there somehow. The demon's working

1197
01:08:51.960 --> 01:08:56.680
<v Speaker 2>there too, no doubt. But I'm waiting for the desert

1198
01:08:56.760 --> 01:08:59.319
<v Speaker 2>to show itself. It reminds me a lot of when

1199
01:08:59.399 --> 01:09:04.319
<v Speaker 2>Christianity became legalized, like America is legalizing Orthodoxy. It's letting

1200
01:09:04.359 --> 01:09:08.600
<v Speaker 2>it become, it's letting it flourish. And whenever something becomes

1201
01:09:08.800 --> 01:09:12.680
<v Speaker 2>normal or flourishes, it gets comfortable, and that's when we

1202
01:09:12.800 --> 01:09:15.800
<v Speaker 2>run to the desert. And I think that that's the

1203
01:09:15.920 --> 01:09:20.800
<v Speaker 2>next step, is that there's people that will flee the

1204
01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:25.560
<v Speaker 2>Internet and flee to their parishes in the sacramental life

1205
01:09:25.600 --> 01:09:28.600
<v Speaker 2>of the church and shut the thing down and unplug.

1206
01:09:29.239 --> 01:09:31.479
<v Speaker 2>I really think that's the next desert for us, is

1207
01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:34.680
<v Speaker 2>to just simply unplug. And I say that while I'm plugged.

1208
01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:41.760
<v Speaker 1>In, it's the tension that we feel, right because the

1209
01:09:43.119 --> 01:09:45.640
<v Speaker 1>longer that I'm in the church, the more that all

1210
01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:48.399
<v Speaker 1>I want to do is be in the church. And

1211
01:09:50.039 --> 01:09:53.039
<v Speaker 1>I always joke that it's like when we're children and

1212
01:09:53.079 --> 01:09:56.079
<v Speaker 1>we were playing tag and you add that safe like

1213
01:09:56.680 --> 01:09:58.680
<v Speaker 1>that whatever it is like a fire hydrant, and when

1214
01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:01.520
<v Speaker 1>you touch that, you can't get me. And the church

1215
01:10:01.600 --> 01:10:03.560
<v Speaker 1>feels like that, and I just want to flee there.

1216
01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:05.399
<v Speaker 1>I want to I want more and more of it,

1217
01:10:05.479 --> 01:10:08.279
<v Speaker 1>and I want and I want to see it overflow,

1218
01:10:08.520 --> 01:10:11.119
<v Speaker 1>like a fire hydrant that's gotten the thing knocked off,

1219
01:10:11.239 --> 01:10:13.239
<v Speaker 1>like I just because there's so much there and I

1220
01:10:13.319 --> 01:10:16.319
<v Speaker 1>want everybody to have it. And I just, I mean,

1221
01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:21.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm an optimist by nature. And well, I guess that's

1222
01:10:21.239 --> 01:10:22.800
<v Speaker 1>a question that I wanted to ask you. I mean,

1223
01:10:23.000 --> 01:10:26.159
<v Speaker 1>you talk about that the world isn't positive or negative,

1224
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:29.600
<v Speaker 1>that it's a third thing. Well you called it a

1225
01:10:29.720 --> 01:10:31.039
<v Speaker 1>third rail mystical.

1226
01:10:31.640 --> 01:10:34.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what do you mean by that? The optimist and

1227
01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:37.960
<v Speaker 2>there's the pessimistic, but then there's the mystic, and the

1228
01:10:38.079 --> 01:10:42.239
<v Speaker 2>mystic acknowledges both, you know. You I think being a

1229
01:10:42.359 --> 01:10:44.560
<v Speaker 2>full on pessimist or a full on optimist is not

1230
01:10:44.640 --> 01:10:47.199
<v Speaker 2>the real path. I think it's in the middle. We

1231
01:10:47.479 --> 01:10:49.119
<v Speaker 2>and this is my opinion. You know, this is not

1232
01:10:49.239 --> 01:10:52.000
<v Speaker 2>from a church father's actually, but there is a way

1233
01:10:52.079 --> 01:10:53.920
<v Speaker 2>to acknowledge both at the same time, which is the

1234
01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:56.199
<v Speaker 2>mystical path, which a lot of that well, a lot

1235
01:10:56.199 --> 01:10:58.800
<v Speaker 2>of the church father especially the recent ones, are able

1236
01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:01.720
<v Speaker 2>to kind of demonstrate that. So that that's kind of

1237
01:11:01.720 --> 01:11:02.600
<v Speaker 2>what I believe, you.

1238
01:11:02.640 --> 01:11:06.239
<v Speaker 1>Know, Yeah, no, and it's it's it's that it's the

1239
01:11:06.359 --> 01:11:12.800
<v Speaker 1>understanding that the polarities exist, the passions and the virtues exist,

1240
01:11:13.039 --> 01:11:16.199
<v Speaker 1>So that that's optimism and pessimism right there, and in

1241
01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:18.960
<v Speaker 1>between is the mysticism where we just we do our

1242
01:11:19.039 --> 01:11:22.960
<v Speaker 1>best to live in that world. I mean, we're this

1243
01:11:23.119 --> 01:11:25.640
<v Speaker 1>far into the the podcast and I didn't even ask

1244
01:11:25.680 --> 01:11:28.960
<v Speaker 1>you about the unseen realm. I mean, that's something that

1245
01:11:29.039 --> 01:11:32.720
<v Speaker 1>we've completely forgotten to it for got. I mean, most

1246
01:11:32.720 --> 01:11:35.159
<v Speaker 1>people don't even believe that it exists, or they do

1247
01:11:35.279 --> 01:11:38.520
<v Speaker 1>in a very discordant way, like I think it was

1248
01:11:38.600 --> 01:11:41.199
<v Speaker 1>Nathan Jacobs, and I forgive me if I'm wrong, And

1249
01:11:41.439 --> 01:11:45.880
<v Speaker 1>is uh becoming truly human? Where you know, some overwhelming

1250
01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:50.039
<v Speaker 1>percentage of these people that didn't have the nuns, that

1251
01:11:50.279 --> 01:11:55.560
<v Speaker 1>didn't have a belief still believed in angels, And so

1252
01:11:55.760 --> 01:11:57.199
<v Speaker 1>how do you square that circle?

1253
01:11:59.119 --> 01:12:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Most people know that there's something going on. Even my

1254
01:12:03.079 --> 01:12:05.880
<v Speaker 2>atheist friends know there's something going on, and no one

1255
01:12:05.960 --> 01:12:08.000
<v Speaker 2>can if a few people can kind of put their

1256
01:12:08.039 --> 01:12:10.439
<v Speaker 2>finger on it. But cultures throughout history have known this

1257
01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:16.159
<v Speaker 2>very very like it's almost natural, like the worldview that

1258
01:12:16.600 --> 01:12:19.920
<v Speaker 2>most primitive cultures and even in more advanced cultures, they

1259
01:12:19.960 --> 01:12:23.359
<v Speaker 2>all had this understanding of an unseen world and they

1260
01:12:23.399 --> 01:12:26.399
<v Speaker 2>would see it and they would experience it. It all

1261
01:12:26.479 --> 01:12:31.840
<v Speaker 2>comes from from cultural experience over time, you know. But

1262
01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:34.119
<v Speaker 2>what we've done in the modern times is that we've

1263
01:12:34.319 --> 01:12:39.600
<v Speaker 2>distracted ourselves so thoroughly and numbed ourselves so thoroughly that

1264
01:12:39.720 --> 01:12:43.239
<v Speaker 2>we don't really care and I think apathy. I write

1265
01:12:43.239 --> 01:12:45.279
<v Speaker 2>about that in Youth the Apocalypse, a different book. I

1266
01:12:45.319 --> 01:12:49.039
<v Speaker 2>wrote that apathy is this disease. It's modern disease of

1267
01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:53.520
<v Speaker 2>just simply not caring. And I think that what happens,

1268
01:12:53.720 --> 01:12:55.680
<v Speaker 2>and this is the beauty of suffering, is that God

1269
01:12:55.840 --> 01:13:00.319
<v Speaker 2>uses suffering to wake us up to this reality, allows

1270
01:13:00.359 --> 01:13:02.520
<v Speaker 2>suffering to do that for us, and it's a gift.

1271
01:13:03.319 --> 01:13:05.920
<v Speaker 2>I want to give an example of my grandfather, who

1272
01:13:06.039 --> 01:13:08.359
<v Speaker 2>was agnostic. He was married to my grandmother who was

1273
01:13:08.399 --> 01:13:11.720
<v Speaker 2>Seventh day Adventist, but quiet throughout their entire marriage, but

1274
01:13:11.800 --> 01:13:15.640
<v Speaker 2>she was devout in her heart. And when he got cancer,

1275
01:13:16.760 --> 01:13:19.239
<v Speaker 2>the first thing he did is turn to her and say,

1276
01:13:19.479 --> 01:13:24.720
<v Speaker 2>teach me. I need to know everything I read to

1277
01:13:24.840 --> 01:13:27.760
<v Speaker 2>me the Bible, show me prayer, show me all this

1278
01:13:27.880 --> 01:13:31.000
<v Speaker 2>stuff because I have to get my life figured out.

1279
01:13:31.199 --> 01:13:35.079
<v Speaker 2>You know, the suffering of cancer was actually the greatest

1280
01:13:35.119 --> 01:13:37.000
<v Speaker 2>blessing that ever happened to him. If you look at

1281
01:13:37.000 --> 01:13:44.680
<v Speaker 2>it from an eternal projectory, the suffering of cancer was

1282
01:13:44.880 --> 01:13:49.680
<v Speaker 2>the best thing ever for him because it purified him. Yeah,

1283
01:13:50.439 --> 01:13:52.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, our goal in life is not to just

1284
01:13:52.640 --> 01:13:56.159
<v Speaker 2>stay alive. If that was the case, then everything that

1285
01:13:56.199 --> 01:13:57.920
<v Speaker 2>we're doing is completely futile.

1286
01:13:58.800 --> 01:14:01.520
<v Speaker 1>God wants to heal all of us, right like, not

1287
01:14:01.680 --> 01:14:06.000
<v Speaker 1>just physically, but spiritually not but more importantly spiritually. And

1288
01:14:06.119 --> 01:14:10.640
<v Speaker 1>sometimes you know, I think I'll mess up the paraphrase,

1289
01:14:10.720 --> 01:14:13.399
<v Speaker 1>but Jean Claude Larchet said something along the lines that

1290
01:14:15.239 --> 01:14:18.920
<v Speaker 1>physical health can actually be evil if it leads you

1291
01:14:18.960 --> 01:14:21.359
<v Speaker 1>away from God because we fall into that state of

1292
01:14:21.399 --> 01:14:25.560
<v Speaker 1>self sufficiency that we don't I'm okay, it's when we're ill.

1293
01:14:25.720 --> 01:14:28.840
<v Speaker 1>And you know, a couple of years ago, my wife

1294
01:14:29.000 --> 01:14:32.720
<v Speaker 1>was diagnosed with cancer. She's in remission now, glory to God.

1295
01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:37.359
<v Speaker 1>And so many of the older people at church came

1296
01:14:37.479 --> 01:14:41.640
<v Speaker 1>up to us, huh, cancer, this would be good, brings

1297
01:14:41.640 --> 01:14:45.520
<v Speaker 1>you closer to Christ and to our modern sensibilities. I mean,

1298
01:14:45.600 --> 01:14:48.079
<v Speaker 1>I've told that story to people who are members of

1299
01:14:48.159 --> 01:14:51.039
<v Speaker 1>our church and they they almost get offended, like I

1300
01:14:51.079 --> 01:14:55.000
<v Speaker 1>can't believe they said that to you. But and and

1301
01:14:55.439 --> 01:14:58.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, only my wife could answer this for herself.

1302
01:14:58.680 --> 01:15:02.119
<v Speaker 1>But I saw her change through cancer for the positive.

1303
01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:05.359
<v Speaker 1>I mean, she wasn't waking up early to pray, she

1304
01:15:05.520 --> 01:15:09.640
<v Speaker 1>wasn't leaning on God as much before cancer. And what

1305
01:15:09.720 --> 01:15:11.640
<v Speaker 1>I always told her, and this is my prayer and

1306
01:15:12.720 --> 01:15:15.960
<v Speaker 1>belief hope that she's going to die an old lady.

1307
01:15:16.760 --> 01:15:19.239
<v Speaker 1>And I told her as she was going through this, said, look,

1308
01:15:19.239 --> 01:15:21.960
<v Speaker 1>God's going to lead you through this valley, and you're

1309
01:15:22.079 --> 01:15:26.319
<v Speaker 1>going to for whatever time he gives you, use it

1310
01:15:26.399 --> 01:15:29.079
<v Speaker 1>to help others, and they and I think even just

1311
01:15:29.239 --> 01:15:31.439
<v Speaker 1>watching her, I mean, so many people didn't know that

1312
01:15:31.560 --> 01:15:34.279
<v Speaker 1>she had cancer because she had this silent strength that

1313
01:15:34.399 --> 01:15:37.039
<v Speaker 1>she walked with it through that me. I mean, I've

1314
01:15:37.079 --> 01:15:38.600
<v Speaker 1>got a little bit of a man cold right now

1315
01:15:38.640 --> 01:15:42.239
<v Speaker 1>and I'm miserable, and I always think, I don't think

1316
01:15:42.279 --> 01:15:44.920
<v Speaker 1>she tells me. She goes, I hope I die before

1317
01:15:45.000 --> 01:15:46.920
<v Speaker 1>you because I won't be able to handle you with

1318
01:15:47.760 --> 01:15:52.880
<v Speaker 1>any sort of affliction. So it's he grabs us with suffering.

1319
01:15:53.039 --> 01:15:56.560
<v Speaker 1>I can't remember what you said, but I mean, suffering

1320
01:15:56.640 --> 01:15:58.199
<v Speaker 1>is a blessing. I think you said the.

1321
01:15:58.279 --> 01:16:01.279
<v Speaker 2>Earth, the earth shattering thing that I experienced when I

1322
01:16:01.399 --> 01:16:03.520
<v Speaker 2>was a punk. First at the monaster is, one of

1323
01:16:03.560 --> 01:16:06.600
<v Speaker 2>the monks said this very thing that you just said,

1324
01:16:06.600 --> 01:16:09.680
<v Speaker 2>which is really really interesting. You know, the philosophers have

1325
01:16:09.760 --> 01:16:11.720
<v Speaker 2>been fighting over what the meaning of suffering is forever

1326
01:16:11.720 --> 01:16:13.239
<v Speaker 2>and they still don't have an answer. The church has

1327
01:16:13.239 --> 01:16:16.439
<v Speaker 2>a total answer for that. It's amazing. He said that

1328
01:16:16.560 --> 01:16:21.079
<v Speaker 2>whenever somebody is suffering in the in the church, and

1329
01:16:21.479 --> 01:16:26.319
<v Speaker 2>this comes specifically from Byzantine sort of worldview. Oh, God's

1330
01:16:26.439 --> 01:16:31.439
<v Speaker 2>visiting you, And I was like, what, like that was

1331
01:16:32.119 --> 01:16:37.079
<v Speaker 2>so an inversion of how I was taught to avoid suffering.

1332
01:16:37.199 --> 01:16:41.239
<v Speaker 2>Suffering is evil And He's like, no, God's visiting you,

1333
01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:43.680
<v Speaker 2>just like what you said was your wife. That is,

1334
01:16:43.920 --> 01:16:48.079
<v Speaker 2>that is the answer to the philosophical question of suffering,

1335
01:16:48.119 --> 01:16:52.039
<v Speaker 2>which Christ fulfilled on the cross. And you know, I

1336
01:16:52.159 --> 01:16:54.279
<v Speaker 2>put this in the book, the quote from I Forget

1337
01:16:54.359 --> 01:16:56.760
<v Speaker 2>His Name. He said that God didn't come to solve

1338
01:16:57.600 --> 01:16:59.680
<v Speaker 2>or eliminate human suffering. He came to fill it with

1339
01:16:59.760 --> 01:17:00.479
<v Speaker 2>his residence.

1340
01:17:00.840 --> 01:17:05.520
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, God is visiting you. I'm stealing that and

1341
01:17:05.600 --> 01:17:07.600
<v Speaker 1>I hope it's I hope it sticks with me for

1342
01:17:07.680 --> 01:17:11.560
<v Speaker 1>the rest of my life because you're right, that's it's

1343
01:17:11.680 --> 01:17:17.800
<v Speaker 1>paradigm shattering. I mean, that's the thing like you and

1344
01:17:17.960 --> 01:17:21.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm I can hear already. Maybe it's just my upbringing

1345
01:17:21.600 --> 01:17:25.399
<v Speaker 1>and the apologetics world wherever everyone has a counter like, well,

1346
01:17:26.399 --> 01:17:27.640
<v Speaker 1>but why does God need that?

1347
01:17:27.920 --> 01:17:30.079
<v Speaker 2>Right? I mean, what what.

1348
01:17:31.800 --> 01:17:34.680
<v Speaker 1>So we experienced him? God is visiting you, hey man,

1349
01:17:35.119 --> 01:17:38.720
<v Speaker 1>thank you for that. Thank you. Spiritual warfare, I mean

1350
01:17:38.760 --> 01:17:43.199
<v Speaker 1>you talk about the unseen realm. My mom she's a

1351
01:17:43.279 --> 01:17:47.439
<v Speaker 1>prayer warrior and she's one of my best friends. I

1352
01:17:47.520 --> 01:17:53.159
<v Speaker 1>love her. Growing up, everything was spiritual warfare. If something

1353
01:17:53.439 --> 01:17:56.159
<v Speaker 1>and am I you know, I think we're all kind

1354
01:17:56.199 --> 01:17:59.800
<v Speaker 1>of materialist to a certain degree, even if we're brought up.

1355
01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:04.479
<v Speaker 1>I mean, the Western mindset seeps in by osmosis. And

1356
01:18:05.319 --> 01:18:07.960
<v Speaker 1>she would explain something bad going on. I'd be like, oh,

1357
01:18:08.039 --> 01:18:09.960
<v Speaker 1>so and so is just in a bad mood. She's, Oh, no,

1358
01:18:10.319 --> 01:18:13.760
<v Speaker 1>it's spiritual warfare, and she would just My mom's very

1359
01:18:14.479 --> 01:18:17.960
<v Speaker 1>emotive and spiritual warfare. I'm telling you, I know it.

1360
01:18:18.319 --> 01:18:19.840
<v Speaker 2>I know spiritual warfare.

1361
01:18:19.560 --> 01:18:22.800
<v Speaker 1>When I see it, and as I've gotten older, I go,

1362
01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:27.439
<v Speaker 1>like most things, like mom was right, most of our

1363
01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:33.439
<v Speaker 1>lives are just a complete experience of spiritual warfare. So

1364
01:18:33.600 --> 01:18:36.359
<v Speaker 1>to the uninitiated, what is spiritual warfare and how do

1365
01:18:36.439 --> 01:18:39.439
<v Speaker 1>we encounter it? And more importantly, how do we counter it.

1366
01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:43.119
<v Speaker 2>Somebody who critiqued my book recently said they were surprised

1367
01:18:43.159 --> 01:18:46.199
<v Speaker 2>that there was nothing spectacular in there about fighting demons,

1368
01:18:47.880 --> 01:18:51.760
<v Speaker 2>and that is completely deliberate. There's no there's nothing spectacular

1369
01:18:51.760 --> 01:18:55.600
<v Speaker 2>about spiritual life and unseen warfare. Unseen warfare largely takes

1370
01:18:55.640 --> 01:18:59.399
<v Speaker 2>place I identify the three enemies as the Church fathers do,

1371
01:18:59.760 --> 01:19:02.600
<v Speaker 2>the world, the flesh, and the devil. The world not

1372
01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:06.399
<v Speaker 2>being you know, nature, but being these passions. The flesh,

1373
01:19:06.479 --> 01:19:10.439
<v Speaker 2>our bodies can be our enemy for us, and obviously

1374
01:19:10.520 --> 01:19:12.800
<v Speaker 2>the devil. I don't focus much on the devil because

1375
01:19:13.319 --> 01:19:16.800
<v Speaker 2>he is canceled when we activate all these virtues in

1376
01:19:16.840 --> 01:19:22.000
<v Speaker 2>the spiritual life. But spiritual warfare is this battle that's

1377
01:19:22.079 --> 01:19:31.560
<v Speaker 2>taking place. The battlefield is us and us walking through

1378
01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:35.079
<v Speaker 2>the world, and that would be you know, at school,

1379
01:19:35.359 --> 01:19:39.279
<v Speaker 2>we're being bombarded by thoughts and ideas and people and

1380
01:19:39.359 --> 01:19:43.720
<v Speaker 2>interactions and relationships. And the marketplace, all these places like

1381
01:19:44.239 --> 01:19:47.000
<v Speaker 2>supermarket is like a massive war zone where you have

1382
01:19:47.119 --> 01:19:50.039
<v Speaker 2>all this food and all this garbage that's trying to

1383
01:19:50.159 --> 01:19:53.199
<v Speaker 2>kill you, and then you have the pharmaceutical section on

1384
01:19:53.239 --> 01:19:55.319
<v Speaker 2>the other end to try to heal you enough to

1385
01:19:55.399 --> 01:19:58.279
<v Speaker 2>keep you alive. This war is everywhere all the time.

1386
01:19:59.159 --> 01:20:01.800
<v Speaker 2>But the father especially in the Philip Colia, they mentioned

1387
01:20:01.840 --> 01:20:05.439
<v Speaker 2>this frequently. It's largely taking place. It all starts with

1388
01:20:05.640 --> 01:20:09.239
<v Speaker 2>the thoughts. Our thoughts determine our lives in huge ways.

1389
01:20:09.439 --> 01:20:13.880
<v Speaker 2>And we don't have any classes in our culture, in

1390
01:20:14.119 --> 01:20:17.159
<v Speaker 2>our upbringing, in our education, systems to help people see

1391
01:20:17.199 --> 01:20:19.079
<v Speaker 2>this or talk about it or learn about it. But

1392
01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:22.520
<v Speaker 2>this fight, this unseen war, is happening in the way

1393
01:20:22.560 --> 01:20:25.640
<v Speaker 2>we think and feel about absolutely everything all the time.

1394
01:20:26.920 --> 01:20:30.640
<v Speaker 2>And that's where the passions flourish or the virtues flourish,

1395
01:20:31.239 --> 01:20:35.600
<v Speaker 2>is in this unseen war. And yes, this unseen war

1396
01:20:35.760 --> 01:20:41.720
<v Speaker 2>is influenced by demonic forces or demonic activity, but it's

1397
01:20:41.760 --> 01:20:47.520
<v Speaker 2>also influenced by our own proclivities, in our own bodies,

1398
01:20:47.720 --> 01:20:50.640
<v Speaker 2>you know. And all this stuff is taking place unseen.

1399
01:20:50.720 --> 01:20:53.920
<v Speaker 2>It's very interesting that the entire book can't be checked

1400
01:20:53.920 --> 01:20:58.920
<v Speaker 2>by science at all. But if you read it, you're like, huh,

1401
01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:02.319
<v Speaker 2>that's true. You know, all of this stuff is totally true,

1402
01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:07.920
<v Speaker 2>but it's completely not verifiable by any scientific method. But

1403
01:21:08.000 --> 01:21:12.920
<v Speaker 2>everyone acknowledges that they love. Yeah, I hate, you know,

1404
01:21:14.479 --> 01:21:17.840
<v Speaker 2>and that's not something that can be challenged or tested,

1405
01:21:17.960 --> 01:21:21.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, But it's unseen. So is our hate dominating

1406
01:21:21.920 --> 01:21:24.079
<v Speaker 2>us or is our love dominating us? This is the war.

1407
01:21:24.560 --> 01:21:26.880
<v Speaker 2>That's the one. I go back to that Saint nikolay

1408
01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:29.840
<v Speaker 2>Villa Miravich quote. You know, it's a battle between me

1409
01:21:29.920 --> 01:21:32.720
<v Speaker 2>and me. Saint John Cassian says the same thing. Our

1410
01:21:32.960 --> 01:21:36.680
<v Speaker 2>enemy is not outside. It's shut up with it. Mm

1411
01:21:36.760 --> 01:21:38.399
<v Speaker 2>hmmm mmm. Yeah.

1412
01:21:39.039 --> 01:21:42.960
<v Speaker 1>Hey, so speaking of unseen, this is something that I've

1413
01:21:42.960 --> 01:21:45.760
<v Speaker 1>been thinking about a lot. Also, my mother planted this,

1414
01:21:46.319 --> 01:21:49.600
<v Speaker 1>uh you know, pebble in my shoe. She just we

1415
01:21:49.760 --> 01:21:54.439
<v Speaker 1>don't talk enough about guardian angels. You've got to talk

1416
01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:57.279
<v Speaker 1>about you've got it. You've got to have somebody. She

1417
01:21:57.399 --> 01:22:00.479
<v Speaker 1>I mean, she wants who knows what she wants? God

1418
01:22:00.520 --> 01:22:04.479
<v Speaker 1>bless her. But she's right, we don't. And I think

1419
01:22:04.600 --> 01:22:06.560
<v Speaker 1>part of the reason is, at least for me personally,

1420
01:22:06.800 --> 01:22:09.319
<v Speaker 1>I don't understand it. I mean, that's that's a frontier

1421
01:22:09.399 --> 01:22:11.600
<v Speaker 1>that I would like to really get to know a

1422
01:22:11.640 --> 01:22:14.640
<v Speaker 1>little bit better, because, like you said, I mean, most

1423
01:22:14.680 --> 01:22:16.920
<v Speaker 1>people on the street, even if they don't have a

1424
01:22:18.119 --> 01:22:22.439
<v Speaker 1>well formed worldview, they still, oh, mom's looking down on me,

1425
01:22:22.560 --> 01:22:25.640
<v Speaker 1>she's an angel now or something like that. Like they

1426
01:22:25.760 --> 01:22:30.960
<v Speaker 1>we talk about angels as though it's intuitively understood, and

1427
01:22:31.119 --> 01:22:35.000
<v Speaker 1>yet when you really myself included, press on what is

1428
01:22:35.039 --> 01:22:37.640
<v Speaker 1>an angel? What are guardian angels? I don't have a

1429
01:22:37.680 --> 01:22:38.159
<v Speaker 1>good answer.

1430
01:22:38.840 --> 01:22:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, my wife and I were talking about this just

1431
01:22:41.600 --> 01:22:44.760
<v Speaker 2>a couple of days ago. I think that it's gonna

1432
01:22:44.760 --> 01:22:47.920
<v Speaker 2>be very interesting once when we're Dad, and in that realm,

1433
01:22:48.880 --> 01:22:54.039
<v Speaker 2>our angels, our guardian angels, are gonna. They display a

1434
01:22:54.119 --> 01:22:58.399
<v Speaker 2>great amount of patience with us. We attribute a lot

1435
01:22:58.520 --> 01:23:04.560
<v Speaker 2>of things to miracles, included two different things God. Normally

1436
01:23:05.560 --> 01:23:10.000
<v Speaker 2>the angels are our guardian angels are involved insanely all

1437
01:23:10.079 --> 01:23:12.720
<v Speaker 2>the time, and they don't get enough respect.

1438
01:23:13.520 --> 01:23:16.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, justin I was thinking about that just this morning.

1439
01:23:16.199 --> 01:23:19.720
<v Speaker 1>I in trying to understand that. I thought, how often,

1440
01:23:20.439 --> 01:23:22.960
<v Speaker 1>and I mean, you do this with some degree of

1441
01:23:23.039 --> 01:23:26.439
<v Speaker 1>trepidation because it's and maybe this is why we don't

1442
01:23:26.439 --> 01:23:29.079
<v Speaker 1>talk about it, because it's slippery. How often have I

1443
01:23:29.199 --> 01:23:32.279
<v Speaker 1>attributed something to God that may have actually been my

1444
01:23:32.359 --> 01:23:33.119
<v Speaker 1>guardian angel?

1445
01:23:33.279 --> 01:23:36.000
<v Speaker 2>A percent. We see this in the lives of saints,

1446
01:23:36.079 --> 01:23:38.000
<v Speaker 2>especially in a life of Saint Andrew the Fool for

1447
01:23:38.079 --> 01:23:41.199
<v Speaker 2>Christ's sake, he describes this unseen realm a lot because

1448
01:23:41.199 --> 01:23:43.680
<v Speaker 2>that's what he saw all the time. He was seeing

1449
01:23:43.800 --> 01:23:46.239
<v Speaker 2>the physical world in the spiritual world all the time.

1450
01:23:46.920 --> 01:23:51.760
<v Speaker 2>But our guardian angels are intervening, or a miracle is

1451
01:23:51.840 --> 01:23:55.000
<v Speaker 2>what I describe it as, this world crossing over with

1452
01:23:55.079 --> 01:23:57.640
<v Speaker 2>the other world. There's an overlap, and that's what a

1453
01:23:57.720 --> 01:23:59.439
<v Speaker 2>miracle is is you kind of see a glimpse into

1454
01:23:59.479 --> 01:24:01.760
<v Speaker 2>this other thing, you know, this other dimension of what

1455
01:24:01.800 --> 01:24:05.520
<v Speaker 2>we want to call it. But we my wife and

1456
01:24:05.560 --> 01:24:08.880
<v Speaker 2>I were getting up in the morning one day recently

1457
01:24:09.560 --> 01:24:13.159
<v Speaker 2>and our icon corner light went on by itself at

1458
01:24:13.239 --> 01:24:18.399
<v Speaker 2>prayer time, and you know, I'm pretty sure it was

1459
01:24:18.840 --> 01:24:21.079
<v Speaker 2>one of our guardian angels, you know. I mean, you

1460
01:24:21.119 --> 01:24:24.159
<v Speaker 2>can say God did it, and God ultimately does everything

1461
01:24:24.279 --> 01:24:27.359
<v Speaker 2>in a certain sense, but I really believe that was

1462
01:24:27.399 --> 01:24:30.760
<v Speaker 2>our guardian angel saying prayer time. And then it happened

1463
01:24:30.760 --> 01:24:33.560
<v Speaker 2>again at evening prayers. You know, I think these little

1464
01:24:33.640 --> 01:24:36.640
<v Speaker 2>things that if we're tuned to the spiritual realm, we

1465
01:24:36.800 --> 01:24:40.800
<v Speaker 2>realize there's far more things happening than we understand or knowledge,

1466
01:24:41.279 --> 01:24:44.239
<v Speaker 2>and that includes the intervention of saints. Just in the

1467
01:24:44.319 --> 01:24:46.920
<v Speaker 2>last few months, I've had interventions of saints in our

1468
01:24:47.000 --> 01:24:51.479
<v Speaker 2>life that were profoundly unexplainable. I mean, they were just

1469
01:24:51.880 --> 01:24:55.359
<v Speaker 2>too far field to make sense out of them with

1470
01:24:55.439 --> 01:24:59.760
<v Speaker 2>the rational mind. And it's clearly one of them involves

1471
01:24:59.760 --> 01:25:03.119
<v Speaker 2>Saint nik Tarisavigina. I haven't thought for and prayed to

1472
01:25:03.199 --> 01:25:05.520
<v Speaker 2>him or had him on my mind for quite a while,

1473
01:25:06.399 --> 01:25:08.600
<v Speaker 2>and he showed up out of the blue in a

1474
01:25:08.680 --> 01:25:12.159
<v Speaker 2>way that was miraculous. And that same thing happened with

1475
01:25:12.520 --> 01:25:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Nester of Sabchuk, a priest who was martyred in Russia.

1476
01:25:15.720 --> 01:25:17.880
<v Speaker 2>Murdered in Russia not too long ago in the nineties,

1477
01:25:18.479 --> 01:25:22.840
<v Speaker 2>he surfaced here in Woodway, Texas. His relics showed up

1478
01:25:22.880 --> 01:25:26.439
<v Speaker 2>in my house. Right when I'm writing his story for

1479
01:25:26.760 --> 01:25:29.399
<v Speaker 2>updating it for Youth the Apocalypse, I get a piece

1480
01:25:29.439 --> 01:25:32.920
<v Speaker 2>of blood soak carpet from Russia. Like they're these Saints

1481
01:25:33.000 --> 01:25:36.720
<v Speaker 2>are are active, They're not not real. And this is

1482
01:25:36.760 --> 01:25:39.560
<v Speaker 2>the part that is, you know, Protestants struggle with to

1483
01:25:39.720 --> 01:25:44.439
<v Speaker 2>understand the cloud of witnesses. There's so much reluctance to

1484
01:25:44.840 --> 01:25:47.880
<v Speaker 2>let this family be a part of your family and

1485
01:25:48.000 --> 01:25:50.840
<v Speaker 2>your life. And it's strange to me because it's so

1486
01:25:52.000 --> 01:25:54.720
<v Speaker 2>like you'll have Spider Man and you'll you know, you know,

1487
01:25:56.560 --> 01:25:58.960
<v Speaker 2>quote Spider Man as having wisdom, but when it comes

1488
01:25:59.000 --> 01:26:01.520
<v Speaker 2>to the Saints, you'll have posters of these you know,

1489
01:26:01.640 --> 01:26:05.079
<v Speaker 2>superheroes that are from comic books. Yes, but the Staints

1490
01:26:05.239 --> 01:26:08.640
<v Speaker 2>who are active, they're actually alive. My godmother has a

1491
01:26:08.720 --> 01:26:12.520
<v Speaker 2>great story where she's in Greece and her this she's

1492
01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:15.800
<v Speaker 2>talking with this woman on a curb and her little

1493
01:26:15.800 --> 01:26:18.079
<v Speaker 2>four year four year old boy strolls into the street

1494
01:26:18.119 --> 01:26:21.680
<v Speaker 2>and gets run over by a delivery truck and the

1495
01:26:21.800 --> 01:26:24.119
<v Speaker 2>mom turns around and sees the truck hit her kid

1496
01:26:24.600 --> 01:26:29.199
<v Speaker 2>and yells out Saint Nicholas's name, and the truck pulls over.

1497
01:26:29.399 --> 01:26:33.000
<v Speaker 2>The kid gets up and dusts himself off and goes

1498
01:26:33.079 --> 01:26:34.840
<v Speaker 2>over to his mom, and the mom's freaking out, and

1499
01:26:35.359 --> 01:26:38.600
<v Speaker 2>he explains that, oh, a guy named Saint Nicholas jumped

1500
01:26:38.640 --> 01:26:46.479
<v Speaker 2>on me in the monastery. We had this all the time,

1501
01:26:46.920 --> 01:26:50.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, Angels. There was a man in a shop

1502
01:26:50.960 --> 01:26:54.840
<v Speaker 2>working on our vehicle, and the car was running and

1503
01:26:54.920 --> 01:26:57.199
<v Speaker 2>it fell off the blocks and it drove into the

1504
01:26:57.279 --> 01:27:00.479
<v Speaker 2>man against a brick wall, and the man was perfectly fine.

1505
01:27:00.479 --> 01:27:03.039
<v Speaker 2>And he said a man ran out of nowhere and

1506
01:27:03.239 --> 01:27:07.359
<v Speaker 2>lifted the car off like this, stiffs all the time.

1507
01:27:07.640 --> 01:27:09.600
<v Speaker 2>But we're so wrapped up in the earth and the

1508
01:27:09.680 --> 01:27:13.079
<v Speaker 2>world and our lives and our affairs and our distractions

1509
01:27:13.159 --> 01:27:16.720
<v Speaker 2>and our phones and our all this entertainment and binge

1510
01:27:16.800 --> 01:27:20.720
<v Speaker 2>watching and food and alcohol, all this stuff. We are

1511
01:27:20.880 --> 01:27:23.399
<v Speaker 2>so numbed out to it that we don't see it anymore.

1512
01:27:23.920 --> 01:27:26.399
<v Speaker 1>Yes, we don't see it, we don't, I mean, And

1513
01:27:26.600 --> 01:27:32.000
<v Speaker 1>and the real irony is okay, if you're let's let's

1514
01:27:32.079 --> 01:27:35.800
<v Speaker 1>use a pagan or your secular okay, you don't see it,

1515
01:27:36.479 --> 01:27:41.479
<v Speaker 1>that makes sense. What really gets me and I'm you know,

1516
01:27:42.279 --> 01:27:45.399
<v Speaker 1>describing myself in large degree, like I said, I'm still

1517
01:27:45.479 --> 01:27:48.359
<v Speaker 1>trying to recalibrate my bunny heres and I'm trying to

1518
01:27:48.399 --> 01:27:51.840
<v Speaker 1>get the signal clear because there's still some degree of doubt.

1519
01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:55.520
<v Speaker 1>You know. You hear that and you think, well that

1520
01:27:56.399 --> 01:28:00.840
<v Speaker 1>that's ridiculous justin that. I was really tracking with you

1521
01:28:01.000 --> 01:28:03.479
<v Speaker 1>until and I and I could hear I mean, the

1522
01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:06.199
<v Speaker 1>skeptic in me and the skeptics that are that am

1523
01:28:06.279 --> 01:28:09.000
<v Speaker 1>visible to me, I can hear them saying, man, I

1524
01:28:09.079 --> 01:28:11.520
<v Speaker 1>was really tracking with that justin guy. I mean, but

1525
01:28:11.640 --> 01:28:15.920
<v Speaker 1>when he started talking about he saw saints and guardian angels,

1526
01:28:17.079 --> 01:28:20.560
<v Speaker 1>that's a little too fantastic for me. It's like we've

1527
01:28:20.840 --> 01:28:23.880
<v Speaker 1>lost connection to that. And I mean, some people say, oh,

1528
01:28:23.920 --> 01:28:26.159
<v Speaker 1>it's it's this Eastern Orthodoxy thing. This is where I

1529
01:28:26.239 --> 01:28:30.560
<v Speaker 1>can't get down with it. But it's thoroughly biblical. It's

1530
01:28:30.600 --> 01:28:31.479
<v Speaker 1>all over the Bible.

1531
01:28:31.640 --> 01:28:33.399
<v Speaker 2>It's all over the Bible.

1532
01:28:33.880 --> 01:28:36.800
<v Speaker 1>And and it's all over the Bible, and it's thoroughly biblical,

1533
01:28:36.880 --> 01:28:42.640
<v Speaker 1>and yet we've somehow so many people I know who

1534
01:28:42.880 --> 01:28:46.720
<v Speaker 1>are Bible believing Christians. When you start talking like this,

1535
01:28:46.960 --> 01:28:52.479
<v Speaker 1>you lose them completely or they say that's heresy. I

1536
01:28:52.560 --> 01:28:55.720
<v Speaker 1>mean it's it's it's very difficult, and it's something that,

1537
01:28:55.880 --> 01:29:01.359
<v Speaker 1>like I said the Saints when when we first started

1538
01:29:01.359 --> 01:29:04.840
<v Speaker 1>attending our church, my sister asked the priest, well, what

1539
01:29:04.920 --> 01:29:07.479
<v Speaker 1>do you say to people who say that you pray

1540
01:29:07.520 --> 01:29:11.239
<v Speaker 1>to dead people? And he just so matter of factly,

1541
01:29:11.680 --> 01:29:12.840
<v Speaker 1>there are no dead Christmas.

1542
01:29:13.239 --> 01:29:14.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's exactly right.

1543
01:29:14.800 --> 01:29:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and we're surrounded by that great cloud of witnesses.

1544
01:29:18.199 --> 01:29:20.840
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's the piece that I felt when

1545
01:29:20.880 --> 01:29:24.439
<v Speaker 1>I was in the church after the sexton died. He's

1546
01:29:24.479 --> 01:29:27.720
<v Speaker 1>still here. Yeah, so gi ant family.

1547
01:29:27.800 --> 01:29:29.399
<v Speaker 2>And if you can't do it here, then how are

1548
01:29:29.439 --> 01:29:33.319
<v Speaker 2>you gonna do it forever? Really, I think that the

1549
01:29:33.640 --> 01:29:37.159
<v Speaker 2>best example of what y're and what we were talking

1550
01:29:37.199 --> 01:29:40.840
<v Speaker 2>about is found when Christ is on not Tabor with

1551
01:29:41.199 --> 01:29:45.399
<v Speaker 2>Moses and Elijah. I mean, he displayed it thoroughly. Hey,

1552
01:29:45.800 --> 01:29:47.640
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot going on here that you can't see,

1553
01:29:48.640 --> 01:29:51.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, And they were so freaked out the three apostles.

1554
01:29:51.439 --> 01:29:53.279
<v Speaker 2>Let us build an altered what are we gonna do,

1555
01:29:53.399 --> 01:29:56.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of panicking because they were seeing something

1556
01:29:56.199 --> 01:29:58.479
<v Speaker 2>that they could not wrap their heads around. Therefore they

1557
01:29:58.520 --> 01:30:02.079
<v Speaker 2>wanted to be busy, you know, doing something because it

1558
01:30:02.199 --> 01:30:06.199
<v Speaker 2>was so overwhelming. But in the icons, I have it

1559
01:30:06.319 --> 01:30:10.960
<v Speaker 2>right behind you. Here you see this Mendalora thing, this

1560
01:30:11.199 --> 01:30:15.319
<v Speaker 2>shape and this world dark and light behind them with

1561
01:30:15.479 --> 01:30:20.640
<v Speaker 2>blue behind Christ. And the icon is great at illustrating

1562
01:30:21.079 --> 01:30:24.600
<v Speaker 2>what we're talking about. There is absolutely a lot going

1563
01:30:24.680 --> 01:30:27.279
<v Speaker 2>on right now. And I think that the more that

1564
01:30:27.399 --> 01:30:31.279
<v Speaker 2>we are attuned to God through prayer and through virtue,

1565
01:30:31.439 --> 01:30:35.079
<v Speaker 2>virtuous life, the more that it becomes normal. It doesn't

1566
01:30:35.119 --> 01:30:37.399
<v Speaker 2>have to be explained, it doesn't have to be you know,

1567
01:30:38.239 --> 01:30:40.920
<v Speaker 2>Western rationalism has kind of killed a lot of really

1568
01:30:40.960 --> 01:30:46.640
<v Speaker 2>cool stuff, including what we're talking about. And again, the

1569
01:30:46.760 --> 01:30:50.119
<v Speaker 2>world's longest journey man, it's got to go from the

1570
01:30:50.199 --> 01:30:52.279
<v Speaker 2>mind into the heart. And the more that we're there,

1571
01:30:52.399 --> 01:30:55.800
<v Speaker 2>the more that all of this stuff makes sense. The

1572
01:30:55.920 --> 01:30:59.640
<v Speaker 2>more that God's providence, his economia, the way we were

1573
01:30:59.720 --> 01:31:02.800
<v Speaker 2>to meet, household management, the way he's managing all of

1574
01:31:02.920 --> 01:31:07.319
<v Speaker 2>this stuff, it all is grace filled and makes sense.

1575
01:31:08.600 --> 01:31:10.680
<v Speaker 2>The more that we're living in sin, it doesn't make sense.

1576
01:31:10.760 --> 01:31:11.920
<v Speaker 2>And so that's fine, you know.

1577
01:31:12.479 --> 01:31:14.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, you hit the nail on the head. I mean,

1578
01:31:14.920 --> 01:31:17.640
<v Speaker 1>you want to understand this. If I'm struggling to understand this,

1579
01:31:17.920 --> 01:31:20.840
<v Speaker 1>the way to kind of you know, clean your your

1580
01:31:20.920 --> 01:31:24.479
<v Speaker 1>glasses off is practicing virtue. It gets right back to

1581
01:31:24.560 --> 01:31:26.399
<v Speaker 1>why that was so exciting to me. I mean, when

1582
01:31:26.439 --> 01:31:29.359
<v Speaker 1>you practice virtue, you see the face of Christ, and

1583
01:31:29.560 --> 01:31:32.279
<v Speaker 1>and and he reveals himself to you, and and and

1584
01:31:32.560 --> 01:31:35.119
<v Speaker 1>and your friends show up. They showed up for you,

1585
01:31:35.359 --> 01:31:39.720
<v Speaker 1>and and and you start understanding I guess maybe not understanding,

1586
01:31:39.760 --> 01:31:42.399
<v Speaker 1>that's probably not the right word, but you start seeing

1587
01:31:42.479 --> 01:31:43.520
<v Speaker 1>miracles for what they are.

1588
01:31:44.520 --> 01:31:49.159
<v Speaker 2>When when our our icon corner light went on, we

1589
01:31:49.279 --> 01:31:51.000
<v Speaker 2>were sitting in bed getting ready to get up to

1590
01:31:51.079 --> 01:31:54.840
<v Speaker 2>do prayers, and my wife's response was to just grab

1591
01:31:54.920 --> 01:31:58.359
<v Speaker 2>my arm and we were started reciting the prayers from heart.

1592
01:32:00.039 --> 01:32:05.680
<v Speaker 2>It was natural. It wasn't anything, but it's called prayer.

1593
01:32:05.960 --> 01:32:09.520
<v Speaker 2>You know. That's that's the sweet spot, if we can

1594
01:32:09.600 --> 01:32:12.359
<v Speaker 2>get to that spot in our life, as clunky as

1595
01:32:12.399 --> 01:32:15.359
<v Speaker 2>we are, as you know, sinners and human beings, but

1596
01:32:15.800 --> 01:32:19.880
<v Speaker 2>when these things are happening there, it's just natural. Yeah.

1597
01:32:20.279 --> 01:32:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean you talked about your and I don't

1598
01:32:24.880 --> 01:32:26.880
<v Speaker 1>want this to feel like it comes out of left field,

1599
01:32:26.920 --> 01:32:29.920
<v Speaker 1>and I don't want it to be antagonistic, but we

1600
01:32:30.039 --> 01:32:36.479
<v Speaker 1>talked a lot about the baggage that certain words in

1601
01:32:36.600 --> 01:32:45.640
<v Speaker 1>our Western American Christian world have, especially amongst evangelicals, and

1602
01:32:46.039 --> 01:32:49.279
<v Speaker 1>I think especially post Reformation, the whole idea, because we're

1603
01:32:49.319 --> 01:32:53.439
<v Speaker 1>talking about practicing the virtues right well, I can hear

1604
01:32:53.560 --> 01:32:58.079
<v Speaker 1>somebody saying you're trying to earn your salvation justin when

1605
01:32:58.119 --> 01:33:00.560
<v Speaker 1>you're talking about how in order to to do this,

1606
01:33:00.760 --> 01:33:03.439
<v Speaker 1>in order to see God, you have to do these

1607
01:33:03.520 --> 01:33:07.840
<v Speaker 1>things to earn it. Practicing virtue, that's just code for

1608
01:33:08.600 --> 01:33:14.399
<v Speaker 1>earning your salvation. And I think accompanying the baggage of

1609
01:33:14.560 --> 01:33:19.880
<v Speaker 1>sin is that false dichotomy that exists with you know,

1610
01:33:21.079 --> 01:33:24.079
<v Speaker 1>earning your salvation in this whether it's free or earned

1611
01:33:24.199 --> 01:33:28.880
<v Speaker 1>what versus working it out with fear and trembling. And

1612
01:33:30.359 --> 01:33:33.640
<v Speaker 1>I just I wanted to ask you how you feel

1613
01:33:33.640 --> 01:33:36.439
<v Speaker 1>about that concept and how you can turn it on

1614
01:33:36.520 --> 01:33:36.920
<v Speaker 1>its head.

1615
01:33:38.640 --> 01:33:41.279
<v Speaker 2>I don't know much about that. You know that these

1616
01:33:41.439 --> 01:33:45.159
<v Speaker 2>arguments are modern. The Christian Church has never had a

1617
01:33:45.479 --> 01:33:48.119
<v Speaker 2>problem with these ideas. You know that you have to

1618
01:33:48.159 --> 01:33:50.359
<v Speaker 2>work for your salvation, that God's grace is a part

1619
01:33:50.399 --> 01:33:52.520
<v Speaker 2>of it. It's never been a discussion or a problem.

1620
01:33:53.399 --> 01:33:55.359
<v Speaker 2>It's really for modern man where you have to like

1621
01:33:55.479 --> 01:33:57.560
<v Speaker 2>try to think your state, your way through this stuff.

1622
01:33:57.720 --> 01:33:59.479
<v Speaker 2>So if I'm standing in front of you and I

1623
01:33:59.800 --> 01:34:02.279
<v Speaker 2>have the choice to slap you or hug you, am

1624
01:34:02.319 --> 01:34:07.760
<v Speaker 2>I working out my relationship with you? Seriously? You know,

1625
01:34:08.000 --> 01:34:09.800
<v Speaker 2>obviously the right thing to do is to hug you.

1626
01:34:10.000 --> 01:34:13.479
<v Speaker 2>And whether you think that that's an action that I

1627
01:34:13.720 --> 01:34:15.720
<v Speaker 2>am choosing to do to save myself or not, it

1628
01:34:15.760 --> 01:34:19.560
<v Speaker 2>doesn't really matter. I think that if you put Christ

1629
01:34:20.399 --> 01:34:24.840
<v Speaker 2>at his example and his teachings to this test, everything

1630
01:34:24.920 --> 01:34:29.960
<v Speaker 2>he was doing was that everything he was doing. I

1631
01:34:30.000 --> 01:34:34.359
<v Speaker 2>don't understand the argument. I don't get it. I have

1632
01:34:34.560 --> 01:34:36.199
<v Speaker 2>to do I have to get up every day and

1633
01:34:36.279 --> 01:34:37.800
<v Speaker 2>I have to do my prayers, and I have to

1634
01:34:37.880 --> 01:34:40.560
<v Speaker 2>be kind in order to follow Christ. Like that's just

1635
01:34:41.640 --> 01:34:42.159
<v Speaker 2>it has to be.

1636
01:34:42.760 --> 01:34:45.359
<v Speaker 1>Well, it gets down to what you were talking about

1637
01:34:45.359 --> 01:34:48.119
<v Speaker 1>earlier when you said it never really made any sense

1638
01:34:48.199 --> 01:34:51.159
<v Speaker 1>to you that you say this prayer and it's done.

1639
01:34:51.920 --> 01:34:55.279
<v Speaker 1>It's this concept of heaven and hell as though it's

1640
01:34:55.279 --> 01:34:57.960
<v Speaker 1>a punctilier moment in your salvation, you prayed your prayer

1641
01:34:58.159 --> 01:35:00.359
<v Speaker 1>justin you're good hopefully you do a all right with

1642
01:35:00.399 --> 01:35:03.000
<v Speaker 1>the rest of your life. But no matter what happens,

1643
01:35:03.720 --> 01:35:06.399
<v Speaker 1>whenever I hear it, it's so jarring to my sensibilities

1644
01:35:06.439 --> 01:35:08.600
<v Speaker 1>when someone says, well, I'm just waiting for the rapture,

1645
01:35:09.000 --> 01:35:12.560
<v Speaker 1>then I'll go to heaven. And I've really started to

1646
01:35:13.039 --> 01:35:15.479
<v Speaker 1>whether it's correct or not, I don't know. I'm not

1647
01:35:15.560 --> 01:35:19.640
<v Speaker 1>a theologian, but I've really started to try and wrap

1648
01:35:19.760 --> 01:35:23.119
<v Speaker 1>my hands around or my head around the idea of

1649
01:35:24.039 --> 01:35:27.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, we're saved, we're being saved, and we will

1650
01:35:27.079 --> 01:35:30.359
<v Speaker 1>be saved. Yeah, and I think saved to what. Well,

1651
01:35:30.640 --> 01:35:33.479
<v Speaker 1>when you talk about heaven and Hell, it's really just

1652
01:35:34.800 --> 01:35:39.039
<v Speaker 1>union with Christ or separation from Christ. And so in

1653
01:35:39.199 --> 01:35:44.119
<v Speaker 1>that process, as we're living out our lives and trying

1654
01:35:44.199 --> 01:35:47.760
<v Speaker 1>to strive for deeper and deeper union with Christ, forget

1655
01:35:47.840 --> 01:35:51.000
<v Speaker 1>about whether you're going to heaven or hell. It's where

1656
01:35:51.079 --> 01:35:54.039
<v Speaker 1>you are. Heaven or Hell is where you've been. Once again,

1657
01:35:54.039 --> 01:35:55.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm not a theologian, So somebody could come in and

1658
01:35:57.399 --> 01:35:59.079
<v Speaker 1>heaven or Hell is where you've been, where you are

1659
01:35:59.119 --> 01:36:01.880
<v Speaker 1>and where you're going. It's not this thing that that

1660
01:36:02.039 --> 01:36:05.880
<v Speaker 1>happens often in the distance, and and and you know

1661
01:36:06.279 --> 01:36:08.760
<v Speaker 1>they got into my head recently because there was this

1662
01:36:08.920 --> 01:36:13.359
<v Speaker 1>online spar with you know, like I said, with people

1663
01:36:13.439 --> 01:36:16.439
<v Speaker 1>and they're, oh, you're going to go to Hell and

1664
01:36:17.319 --> 01:36:21.079
<v Speaker 1>whatever the language. And I thought to myself, Well, if

1665
01:36:21.119 --> 01:36:26.279
<v Speaker 1>you're experiencing this degree of a lack of kindness, I'm

1666
01:36:26.319 --> 01:36:28.399
<v Speaker 1>not saying that you're going to hell for all eternity,

1667
01:36:28.520 --> 01:36:31.760
<v Speaker 1>but you're experiencing in that moment when we fall prey

1668
01:36:31.840 --> 01:36:33.760
<v Speaker 1>to the passions, I feel like we are in Hell,

1669
01:36:34.920 --> 01:36:38.680
<v Speaker 1>and when we experience the love of Christ and the virtues,

1670
01:36:39.079 --> 01:36:42.000
<v Speaker 1>we're in heaven. Is there anything that I said that's

1671
01:36:42.000 --> 01:36:42.800
<v Speaker 1>a heretical there?

1672
01:36:43.640 --> 01:36:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Not that I know. I'm not a theologian at all,

1673
01:36:45.680 --> 01:36:47.720
<v Speaker 2>and you know, I'll be honest with you. My area

1674
01:36:47.800 --> 01:36:51.600
<v Speaker 2>that I'm most interested in is aesthetical theology. Asthetic theology,

1675
01:36:51.680 --> 01:36:53.960
<v Speaker 2>which is practice practice.

1676
01:36:54.039 --> 01:37:00.680
<v Speaker 1>Yes, justin or orthodoxies small Oh only exists for praxis,

1677
01:37:01.279 --> 01:37:05.359
<v Speaker 1>it only exists for orthopraxy. So I'm right there with you, brother.

1678
01:37:05.680 --> 01:37:07.239
<v Speaker 2>I have a story though, that I can add to

1679
01:37:07.359 --> 01:37:09.920
<v Speaker 2>this real quickly. A few days ago, I was in

1680
01:37:10.039 --> 01:37:12.840
<v Speaker 2>a rush to get some of our book orders to

1681
01:37:13.039 --> 01:37:16.800
<v Speaker 2>the post office, and these two older gentlemen knocked on

1682
01:37:16.880 --> 01:37:20.479
<v Speaker 2>my door and they were holding a Bible and they said, hey,

1683
01:37:20.560 --> 01:37:22.079
<v Speaker 2>we want to talk to you, We want to ask you.

1684
01:37:22.199 --> 01:37:24.479
<v Speaker 2>Do you are you saved? And I looked at them

1685
01:37:24.520 --> 01:37:29.479
<v Speaker 2>and I made a huge mistake. I said no. And

1686
01:37:29.640 --> 01:37:32.119
<v Speaker 2>I really should not have done that, because I opened

1687
01:37:32.199 --> 01:37:34.039
<v Speaker 2>up a giant can of worms, and I knew that

1688
01:37:34.159 --> 01:37:36.600
<v Speaker 2>I was opening a can of worms, and it was

1689
01:37:36.680 --> 01:37:39.640
<v Speaker 2>this can of worms. You know, I firmly believe that

1690
01:37:39.800 --> 01:37:42.439
<v Speaker 2>that is one of the most destructive theological ideas that

1691
01:37:42.640 --> 01:37:46.560
<v Speaker 2>ever entered Christianity, is you call upon the Lord Jesus

1692
01:37:46.640 --> 01:37:48.199
<v Speaker 2>and you will be saved. And I know there's a

1693
01:37:48.239 --> 01:37:50.640
<v Speaker 2>Bible verse for that. There's also a Bible verse for

1694
01:37:51.199 --> 01:37:54.199
<v Speaker 2>there are many that called upon me and said Lord Lord,

1695
01:37:54.960 --> 01:37:59.680
<v Speaker 2>and I did not know them. There's an implicit contradiction

1696
01:37:59.800 --> 01:38:04.439
<v Speaker 2>right there. And as you're saying, people should never, ever, ever,

1697
01:38:04.600 --> 01:38:07.880
<v Speaker 2>in my estimation, say somebody is going here or going

1698
01:38:07.960 --> 01:38:11.880
<v Speaker 2>there ever ever, it's none of their business. In fact,

1699
01:38:11.960 --> 01:38:14.960
<v Speaker 2>it's an egregious thing to do to put your feet

1700
01:38:15.079 --> 01:38:21.680
<v Speaker 2>in God's economia. That's that's a crazy assumption, to put

1701
01:38:21.800 --> 01:38:25.399
<v Speaker 2>your shoes in God's judgment seat and say things like

1702
01:38:25.479 --> 01:38:29.720
<v Speaker 2>this again, like you you alluded to what you were saying,

1703
01:38:29.920 --> 01:38:33.560
<v Speaker 2>is that where am I right in this moment? It's

1704
01:38:33.600 --> 01:38:35.800
<v Speaker 2>not there in the past, it's not in the future.

1705
01:38:35.920 --> 01:38:39.159
<v Speaker 2>It's right now. Am I with Christ or not? Period?

1706
01:38:39.640 --> 01:38:43.039
<v Speaker 2>That's all that matters, And honestly, that's all that exists

1707
01:38:44.479 --> 01:38:45.960
<v Speaker 2>is right now. Yeah.

1708
01:38:46.439 --> 01:38:49.720
<v Speaker 1>Amen, Well, I've got two more questions for you. I'd

1709
01:38:49.720 --> 01:38:51.640
<v Speaker 1>be remiss about and ask you about reality on a

1710
01:38:51.680 --> 01:38:54.520
<v Speaker 1>commitment to reality. So where are we most eager to

1711
01:38:54.600 --> 01:38:55.600
<v Speaker 1>look away from reality?

1712
01:38:56.680 --> 01:38:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Most eager to look away from Oh my gosh, that's

1713
01:38:59.840 --> 01:39:04.640
<v Speaker 2>a tough question, but I think that obviously, the reality

1714
01:39:04.720 --> 01:39:07.359
<v Speaker 2>of who we are are our own condition. I think

1715
01:39:07.439 --> 01:39:11.079
<v Speaker 2>most of us are fearful of that reality of who

1716
01:39:11.159 --> 01:39:14.159
<v Speaker 2>we are and what's lurking inside of us. And this

1717
01:39:14.359 --> 01:39:17.600
<v Speaker 2>is why we have the passions, And this is all

1718
01:39:17.640 --> 01:39:21.359
<v Speaker 2>the passions are, And all these habits and addictions and

1719
01:39:21.399 --> 01:39:23.640
<v Speaker 2>all these problems that we have, they're all ways of

1720
01:39:23.760 --> 01:39:27.880
<v Speaker 2>trying to treat or medicate the harmful effects of the fall.

1721
01:39:29.159 --> 01:39:33.720
<v Speaker 2>They all go back to that, and we miss the

1722
01:39:33.760 --> 01:39:38.479
<v Speaker 2>point when we do this. The panacea is Christ and

1723
01:39:38.720 --> 01:39:41.760
<v Speaker 2>is the sacramental life of the Church. And that's the

1724
01:39:41.840 --> 01:39:45.560
<v Speaker 2>reality that we most fear. That's why we fear confession.

1725
01:39:46.560 --> 01:39:49.800
<v Speaker 2>That's why we avoid it. That's why we try not

1726
01:39:49.920 --> 01:39:52.720
<v Speaker 2>to receive communion too much, because we're afraid of it.

1727
01:39:52.960 --> 01:39:55.119
<v Speaker 2>That's why we try not to say things that are

1728
01:39:55.159 --> 01:39:57.279
<v Speaker 2>personal to our friends too much, because we want to

1729
01:39:57.319 --> 01:40:01.560
<v Speaker 2>project what we are, not people to think something else

1730
01:40:01.640 --> 01:40:04.840
<v Speaker 2>of us. We're afraid of ourselves. That's the reality that

1731
01:40:04.920 --> 01:40:07.600
<v Speaker 2>we are terrified the most of, in my opinion.

1732
01:40:09.279 --> 01:40:13.000
<v Speaker 1>And in a world that feels increasingly unreal, what feels

1733
01:40:13.079 --> 01:40:13.960
<v Speaker 1>most real to.

1734
01:40:14.039 --> 01:40:24.119
<v Speaker 2>You tears, tears, tears of prayer, tears for people that

1735
01:40:24.199 --> 01:40:28.520
<v Speaker 2>are suffering, tears for my children, tears of joy for Christ. Tears.

1736
01:40:29.560 --> 01:40:35.279
<v Speaker 1>Man, justin, We've said this multiple times already. I want

1737
01:40:35.319 --> 01:40:37.279
<v Speaker 1>to thank you for joining me on a commitment to reality.

1738
01:40:37.760 --> 01:40:40.439
<v Speaker 1>And we just met today for the first time, well

1739
01:40:40.840 --> 01:40:44.119
<v Speaker 1>if we can call this meeting. But these Christians are funny.

1740
01:40:44.359 --> 01:40:47.159
<v Speaker 1>They love each other before they meet. And I love you, brother,

1741
01:40:47.439 --> 01:40:47.920
<v Speaker 1>That's awesome.

1742
01:40:48.000 --> 01:40:48.640
<v Speaker 2>Love you to you, brother,