WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.600 I want to welcome everyone back to the Peking Jana Show. 2 00:00:04.599 --> 00:00:07.480 I'm here with Jay Otto. That's your whole name, I 3 00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:08.839 want to I want to say your whole name. I'm 4 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:09.560 going to call you Odo. 5 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:12.240 But Jonathan Auto Pole. 6 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:16.519 Is awesome, awesome. How are you doing Ato? 7 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:17.600 Knowing? Good? 8 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:21.280 Good? Tell everybody a little bit about yourself first time 9 00:00:21.320 --> 00:00:21.760 on the show. 10 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:25.839 I have a PhD. I got fairly late. I was 11 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.160 in my thirties from the School of Oriental and African 12 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:35.479 Studies at the University of London, and I have a 13 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:39.759 total of four books published, the most recent one two 14 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:43.399 years ago. The year is a Great Silence published by 15 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:48.359 Ibidem ver Lagh and Stute Gart, dealing with the ethnic 16 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:52.280 Germans in the Soviet Union during World War Two, mostly, 17 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:57.280 although it has chapters both before and after the Second 18 00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:03.399 World War. I worked overseas as a history lecturer for 19 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:12.120 twelve years in Kyrgyzstan, Ghana and Iraq in the Kurdish region, 20 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:18.079 and I am currently living in New Mexico, where I 21 00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:24.359 came originally to be a middle school teacher, but the 22 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:26.959 dress of it almost caused me to die in the classroom, 23 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:31.640 so I am now currently working as a janitor for 24 00:01:31.719 --> 00:01:32.640 a grocery store. 25 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:37.959 Do you see yourself possibly get getting on with a 26 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:43.200 university or do you now. 27 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:48.120 The overseas jobs are pretty dry much dried up, as 28 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:53.040 as anything in my specific disciplinary field. But I've applied 29 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:57.719 to maybe three thousand jobs in the US for assistant 30 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.799 professor positions, and I think I got maybe ten interviews, 31 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:06.480 but the last one would have been in two thy 32 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:11.400 twenty one, So it keeps getting more and more difficult. 33 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:15.439 At this point, it's a better use of resources just 34 00:02:15.479 --> 00:02:17.080 to buy lottery tickets. 35 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:22.360 Well, someone turned me onto your sub stack twentieth century 36 00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:26.960 musings in the twenty first century, and I read two 37 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:29.599 articles specifically that I got a lot out of, and 38 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:31.360 that's what I wanted to ask you to come on 39 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:35.000 and talk about. They both deal with the same subject 40 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:41.800 but different different operations in Soviet Russia. So the first 41 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:44.520 article that I read was the myth that Jews were 42 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:47.960 the ethnic group most persecuted by the Soviet regime the 43 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:55.080 Great Terror and national operations? Why do people think that 44 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:58.479 the What has caused people to believe that Jews were 45 00:02:58.520 --> 00:02:59.840 the most persecuted group by the so. 46 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:04.520 Well, for the thirty seven thirty eight I think it's 47 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:08.319 because there is a even a book, but you personally 48 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:10.919 used to be a good historian, and then she completely 49 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:14.000 sold out out of Canada. Lynn Viola, she wrote a 50 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:18.479 very good book on de Koulokization, the deportation of culos 51 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:22.919 to special settlement areas, particularly in the far North in 52 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:26.719 the Arctic Circle, called the Unknown Gulag. But Lynn Viola 53 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:29.199 then wrote a book I kind of remember the title 54 00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:33.360 of it, but basically it was about the purge of 55 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:37.960 Jewish Nkvday agents, a couple hundred of them from the 56 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:41.319 top ranks of the NKA Day in November nineteen thirty eight, 57 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:43.879 and how they were the real victims. But if you 58 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:49.919 look at how many people were arrested and either executed 59 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:53.360 or sent a labor camp by the same people, it's 60 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:55.840 obviously you know, this would be like writing a book 61 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:59.520 saying that the people that tanged at Nuremberg with the 62 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:04.280 real victory of the Holocaust. But because of the way 63 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:08.000 political power is structured in North America, she can of 64 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:10.280 course get away with it. So Yagoda, the head of 65 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:13.719 the NKVA Day from nineteen thirty four to nineteen thirty six, 66 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:17.040 who was executed Israel Leaplevski, who was the head of 67 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:20.639 the NKVDAY in Ukraine during the thirty seven thirty eight 68 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:27.000 terror including the Polish and German operations. Boris Burman, the 69 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:30.399 head of the NKV DAY in Belarus during this time 70 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:35.519 in thirty seven and thirty eight. Genrik Lyushkov wasn't executed 71 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:38.360 by the Soviets that he fled to Manchuria and the 72 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:41.600 Japanese executed him, but he was responsible for the thirty 73 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:45.839 seven ethnic cleansing of Koreans from the Far East. So 74 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:51.959 these people are prominent in the show trials and execution 75 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:55.839 in November thirty eight, all the way up until the 76 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:59.279 nineteen forty one. But they're only a couple hundred of them. 77 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:01.519 But I think where they're looking at they're saying, well, 78 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:05.160 look at the prominent Jewish communists, like and even earlier 79 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:10.160 kamen ethan Zineviv. The first show trials executed were former 80 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:13.519 Jewish Pullet Bureau members. But if you take the total numbers, 81 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.560 it's only a couple hundred people. And at this time 82 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:22.120 you had almost seventy eight thousand ethnic Poles and forty 83 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:26.519 six thousand ethnic Germans executed. Specifically because they were German 84 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:28.399 or Polish in thirty seven and thirty eight. 85 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:32.720 So what do those numbers look like? What was the 86 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.759 Jewish population of Russia at that time? What percentage were they? 87 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:42.079 They were one point eight percent of the total population, 88 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:46.759 about five and a half percent of the Communist Party, 89 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:53.639 But under Yagoda and Yejaf the NKFA day they were 90 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:59.000 between almost forty percent I think, with thirty eight point 91 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:04.800 five percent and twenty percent up until the purged by 92 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:08.240 Beeria of them in November thirty eight. Of the top 93 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.040 one hundred or so NKVA Day officers, including and I said, 94 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:16.959 the Jagota himself number one man Lapleski, number one man 95 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:20.920 for the Ukrainian Soviet Solis Republic, Boris Berman, number one 96 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:26.000 man for bill Russian Soviet Socist Republic, Genrik Lyushkov, the 97 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:32.879 Far Eastern Kry, the head of the Gulag from nineteen 98 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:38.600 thirty to nineteen thirty eight, the three men Kogan, mattve Berman, 99 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:42.079 who was the brother Boris Berman, he was in power 100 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:44.560 as head of the Gulag from thirty two to thirty seven, 101 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:49.800 and then Israel Plinner. So you really have during the 102 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.279 nineteen thirties when you have de kulakization, the Helota more 103 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:56.319 and of course the Great Terror in thirty seven and 104 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:01.160 thirty eight, complete with national operations against diaspora group but 105 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:06.360 not Jews because they didn't have an independent homeland at 106 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:09.920 that time about two hundred and fifty thousand, the largest 107 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:13.319 group being the Poles and second German and then coming 108 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:15.519 up Latvians. 109 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:23.319 Well, what was the justification basically for the extermination of 110 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:24.680 Poles and Germans and. 111 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:30.519 Latvians because they were they were diaspora groups that had 112 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:36.240 independent states outside of the Soviet Union, and so it 113 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:43.319 was deemed that because as they were ethnically and the 114 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:46.439 Soviet idea of ethnos is that culture is primordial, it 115 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:55.439 kind of combines idea of primordial culture with biological determinism 116 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.560 through indogamy, that is, the groups don't marry out much. 117 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:04.680 Culture continues to be reproduced through intermarriage of their only 118 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:08.439 within their group. So it deemed that these people ultimately 119 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:12.560 were politically suspect that they when it came down to it, 120 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:15.720 they would owe their political allegiance not to the Soviet Union, 121 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:19.000 but to the government in Warsaw or the government in 122 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:22.120 Berlin or the government in Riga, depending which the Asport 123 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:24.000 group you are talking about. 124 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:28.600 Is that why they didn't go after the Jews because 125 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:30.240 they didn't have a homeland yet. 126 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:36.279 In big part, yes, because they start to in a 127 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:43.200 much less violent and much more toned down measures, because 128 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.600 they've gotten rid of the massive violence by then at 129 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:48.960 the end of the Stalin era, so you have the 130 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:54.080 anti cosmopolitan campaign under Jondanov and then of course the 131 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:57.960 Doctor's plot the very end of Stalin's life, and in 132 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:04.159 the post Dollen era you have later after the break 133 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:10.279 between the Soviet government and Israel, anti Zionist campaigns within 134 00:09:10.519 --> 00:09:15.399 the Soviet Union. But there's never any mass arrest or 135 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:21.840 mass deportations or mass executions of Jews with Soviet citizenship. 136 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:26.120 The one case of mass deportation of Jews by the 137 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:30.720 Soviet government was about fifty thousand Polish Jews that fled 138 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:36.519 German occupied Poland into the Soviet occupied Era area in 139 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:40.559 nineteen thirty nine nineteen forty, and in nineteen forty they 140 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:44.799 were given the choice they either accept the Soviet passports 141 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:50.639 and citizenship or they would be forcibly relocated as special settlers, 142 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:55.080 and so about fifty thousand refused to take Soviet citizenship. 143 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:59.759 Wanting to keep their Polish citizenship and were forcibly resettled, 144 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:03.080 but almost all of the survivors and their death rates 145 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:06.120 were much lower than those The Polish Catholics that were 146 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:09.879 deported this time were released two years later in forty one, 147 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.039 with the agreement between the Polish government and exile and 148 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:18.279 the Soviet government to allow Polish citizens to be evacuated 149 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:20.399 out of the Soviet Union into Iran. 150 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:29.879 Going back to the two hundred that Stalin killed, why 151 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:30.759 did he get rid of them? 152 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:36.320 Because they were closely associated with the former heads of 153 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:40.720 the nkvaday that had been removed, In part because Stalin 154 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:45.919 believed they were creating their own kind of political fiefdoms 155 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:50.240 that were independent of him and could challenge him, and 156 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:54.440 also largely because the Buria, who was a fellow Georgian 157 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:58.240 appointed by Stalin, wanted to clear out all of the 158 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.320 men that had been appointed by You go to Yashav 159 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:05.480 and appointed own men. So you see the NKVA day 160 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:11.399 after November thirty eight, far fewer Jews, they go down 161 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:15.039 from twenty percent to four percent in the leadership, but 162 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:19.120 a lot more Georgians, a lot more Russians, a lot 163 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:23.480 more Ukrainians and a lot more ethnic Armenians, and most 164 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:27.159 of those Armenians from Georgia, people like the Kobolov brothers 165 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:28.600 associated with Buria. 166 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.440 So a lot of people point to the Doctor's Plot. 167 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:38.399 I think Francis Parkriyaki looked at the Doctor's Plot and 168 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:41.879 deem that the Soviet Union at that point was going 169 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:46.519 in a anti Semitic direction. Do you see that because 170 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:49.519 of the because of the Doctor's Plot and how it 171 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:52.360 was handled or was that a misreading? 172 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:56.799 Well no, I mean it was aimed at Jews. But 173 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:59.600 the thing is the number of people that were arrested 174 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:02.919 and killed is still name, you know, a small fraction. 175 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:06.799 We're talking hundreds of people, whereas we look at just 176 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:11.679 the executions and the German operation and the Polish operations, 177 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:16.519 we're talking tens of thousands of people. Ultimately, the diaspor 178 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:21.320 groups targeted in thirty seven thirty eight were all together 179 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:24.200 equal to the Jewish population one point eight percent of 180 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:28.000 the population, but they formed two hundred and fifty thousand 181 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:32.879 out of seven hundred thousand executions, so over a third. 182 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:38.519 So let's go back to the to the executions by 183 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:45.320 the I'm out executed by the nationality polls were the biggest, 184 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:48.360 were the biggest. How many Poles were there? 185 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:53.679 About total seventy eight thousand were executed, not all in 186 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:56.120 the Polish operation, some of them in what's called the 187 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:02.159 Kulak operation and some other operations, but and the Polish 188 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:05.399 operation itself, not everybody executed it. With Polish it was 189 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:08.679 about one hundred and ten thousand people executing it, so 190 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:11.879 you know, some almost thirty thousand were bil of Russian 191 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:18.080 and then Ukrainians and other nationality. The German operation had 192 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.960 about fifty five thousand execution, of which about twenty nine thousand, 193 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:26.639 I mean fifty five thousand convictions, which about forty two 194 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:31.960 thousand were executed, about twenty nine thousand the Germans. But 195 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:36.240 when you add in Germans executed in other operations like 196 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.879 the Kulak operation, which was much harder than the German operation. 197 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:44.039 In the Voca German assr most of the German executions 198 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:47.000 for the German operation we're in Ukraine and then the 199 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:50.960 next area hit hard with Siberia. We're talking forty six 200 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.840 thousand or so Germans executed in nineteen thirty seven nineteen 201 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:55.320 thirty eight. 202 00:13:57.159 --> 00:13:59.080 How did they execute them? 203 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:01.559 Bullet to the back of the head of a nine 204 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:04.039 millimeters pistol usually tokarah. 205 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:12.080 Yeah, Well, let's move forward to the deportations and resettlements. 206 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:18.399 Why only the deportations and resettlements. Why aren't they why 207 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:21.159 aren't they going through the uh through the trouble of 208 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:22.080 killing these people. 209 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:27.399 Well, when Berria replaces Jajov and most of the executions 210 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:32.440 for political reasons as well as other reasons. There's there's 211 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:36.360 under the stalin are. Almost all executions are for political crimes. 212 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:40.960 They occurred at thirty seven and thirty eight, which is 213 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:46.799 the time Yajaf who was a mixed ancestry. His father 214 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.320 was Russian and his mother was Lithuanian, and he was 215 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:54.519 from Vilnos. One of the reasons they suspect he particularly 216 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:58.600 hated Polish people on the Polish operation. When he was 217 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:01.320 placed by Berria, it was it deemed that these maths 218 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.320 executions were wasteful because you did not get any labor 219 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:09.639 out of the people you were shooting, right, So instead 220 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.799 it would deem that the better way was to punish 221 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:17.639 people in a way which you could get some work 222 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:20.960 out of them, although conditions were so horrible. Often people 223 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:23.600 would not be able to work for very long before 224 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:29.399 they became sick or even died, so Biria moved everything 225 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:34.639 to forced labor from the execution that had been prominent 226 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:38.360 under the Yeja. 227 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:42.519 How are there so many at one point Jews in 228 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:49.799 Possessions of Power? Celes Kin's book The Jewish Century, you know, 229 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.000 shows that even in the beginning it wasn't great, but 230 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:57.120 it grows, and it grows famously. People said, when Trotsky 231 00:15:57.200 --> 00:15:59.080 came back from New York, the people he brought with 232 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:01.879 them were almost almost every single one of them were Jews. 233 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:05.240 Were they Russians? Were they born Russian? Were they from 234 00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:09.519 somewhere else? Was this a Jewish? 235 00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:11.840 I don't know. I mean in the Pullet Bureau, the 236 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:17.159 first Pullitt Bureau after these Bolshevik tic power has seven people, 237 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:23.879 and four of them are Jewish according to the Soviet records, 238 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:30.559 So those are Trotsky obviously born in Ukraine. Kamin F' 239 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:34.240 his father was Jewish, but is identified in almost all 240 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:39.080 the literature as an ethnic Jew Zenoviv and a guy 241 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:42.440 named Solokanoff, which I can't find much information on him, 242 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.559 and it doesn't seem anybody else can, but the Soviet 243 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:50.840 information indicates his Nasanale notes was Jewish. That's about all 244 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:53.639 I know. And there were some other high ranking officials 245 00:16:54.200 --> 00:17:00.080 later that were not in that in the Pullet Bureau 246 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.000 for very long and Sparedlofsk who was responsible for the 247 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.039 killing of the Czar, led the hit squad, but was 248 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:10.759 also the man who kept the records for organization of 249 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:13.839 the party, a position that Stalin later took over and 250 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:18.200 allowed him to consolidate control over the Communist Party of 251 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:23.119 the Soviet Union. But so in the beginning, you see 252 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:29.640 there's at least three powerful Jews Trotsky, Kama athan Zenevich 253 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:33.200 in the Soviet Pullet Buro, and they're there from nineteen 254 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:38.720 seventeen to nineteen twenty six, and by in nineteen twenty six. 255 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:44.599 In nineteen twenty seven, Stalin begins removing them as the 256 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:49.920 potential actual opposition until called left opposition, and they are 257 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:55.640 by nineteen twenty eight. He has consolidated his power and 258 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:57.519 there's a brief period of time and there's no Jews 259 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:00.480 in the Pullet Burerou, and then Stalin appoints Kaganoch, who 260 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.279 was fiercely loyal to Stalin all the way up until 261 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:07.160 his death, right before the Soviet Union collapsed. So Kaganovic, 262 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:11.079 if there had ever made any criticism of Stalin near 263 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:15.640 the end of his life's veiled that Stalin wasn't harsh enough, 264 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:17.119 didn't kill enough people. 265 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:23.359 So is it a lot of just nepotism where one 266 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.519 person would get appointed and then they'd bring in somebody, 267 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:29.759 and they'd bring in kin folk and it would just 268 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:33.039 start growing and growing. Like you said that one of 269 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.359 the reasons for the purge was it seemed like they 270 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:37.920 were trying to consolidate power into themselves. 271 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:42.640 Well for Jewish domination of the NKVT officer corps and 272 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:46.359 going back also the Oka pay Ooh, it's the predecessor. 273 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.839 We don't have as good of records. Memorial, which is 274 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:53.880 now illegal in Russia, has compiled off the Natinale nots 275 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:58.200 of all of the high ranking NKVD officers from nineteen 276 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.839 thirty four to nineteen forty one. It appears that a 277 00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:04.319 lot of these people were appointed by Yagoda and they 278 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:08.839 continued on under Yeja and then Biria removes them. But 279 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.759 there's also the fact when you look at the Gulag leadership, 280 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:16.759 which is a subsection of the nk day and later 281 00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:22.880 and earlier had been under okay ooh. What Ann Applebaum 282 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:27.920 says is that the Gulag leadership and administration with a 283 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:34.720 dumping ground for those people in the nkvday that were 284 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:38.920 considered not to be very competent or smart. But the 285 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:43.799 leadership you look at Berman is really responsible for growing 286 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:46.400 it from nineteen thirty two to thirty seven. Is number 287 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:50.119 two man is Israel plinner and nathlete Frankel, one of 288 00:19:50.119 --> 00:19:54.160 the few Gulag chiefs that stands out as actually being very, 289 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:58.519 very smart, has a lot written about him by Alexander 290 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.839 Solzanitsen and the Gulag ar Pellago. He had originally come 291 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:07.480 from Haifa and God to the Russia to be a 292 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:13.480 merchant and then ended up getting incarcerated during Lenin's time 293 00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:17.519 in the Slovaki camps in the Far North, but he 294 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:20.880 kept giving such great advice to the camp administrators on 295 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:24.359 how to squeeze more labor for less food out of 296 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:28.680 the inmate that they made him a Gulag official, and 297 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:32.000 he became one of the top officials in the thirties, 298 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:36.799 particularly early on with the building the White Sea Baltic Canal. 299 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:45.119 Why is it that when we look at communist crimes 300 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.440 I mean, some of the stuff we've already mentioned is, 301 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:52.799 you know, Heinus is just if you're going to kill 302 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:55.240 one hundred thousand people with just bullets to the back 303 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.960 of the head, that takes some kind of will that 304 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:01.880 I don't think the average person can even fathom. So 305 00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:05.880 why is it that we don't talk about communist crimes, 306 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:09.240 but say, you know, anything, you know, anything that the 307 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:13.200 Germans have ever done gets brought up, or anything you know, 308 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:16.359 you know, anyone who's ever tried a bad look at 309 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:20.119 a Jew has their crimes are amplified. 310 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:24.559 Yeah. Well, I think there's been some some good academic 311 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:28.079 literature by Jewish scholars on this. One. Work I would 312 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:33.119 recommend is Juris les King, who was from the Soviet Union, 313 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:38.359 is a professor of history at University of California, Berkeley. Technically, 314 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:40.960 I guess he's only half Jewish. His father is Jewish, 315 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:45.680 but under the Soviet system he was considered Jewish. But 316 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:51.720 he writes about how Jews in the Soviet Union and 317 00:21:51.759 --> 00:22:00.799 elsewhere became interested and successful in running government, becoming dissipants 318 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:06.079 in disproportionate member numbers in government the same way they 319 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:09.960 did other industries like Hollywood or banking right, so it's 320 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:14.119 becomes an ethnic industry. So the nk A Day and 321 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:17.960 Okpu are literally viewed as kind of, this is a 322 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:22.160 Jewish business we can go into because Jagoda is a 323 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:24.680 you know, knows our family, and we can get appointed 324 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:27.319 and go up the ranks. And Berman, you know, he 325 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:30.759 had not only Boris Berman, his brother, head of the 326 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:35.640 NKV DAY in Biliruths, but another brother, Solomon Berman, was 327 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:38.599 also a high ranking officer in the NKVD. So he 328 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:43.599 had three brothers all in the NKV DAY during the 329 00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:47.559 Stalin era in the thirties. So that's one explanation. And 330 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.680 as far as not remembering it not talking about it, 331 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:56.960 I think Peter Novic's The Holocaut and American Life where 332 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.680 he talks about starting in the sixties, you start to 333 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:08.640 see this use and intermentalization of atrocities and victimization and 334 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:12.920 particularly called the victimization Olympics for political power, and he 335 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:16.880 specifically talks about the use of the Holocaust to get 336 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:20.880 support for the state of Israel starting in nineteen sixty 337 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.559 seven with the war. 338 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:29.720 What do you when you look at the attitude towards 339 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:33.319 Jews in the Soviet Union what is it. 340 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:39.319 Well, you know, throughout the entire we have probably best 341 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:43.680 term user the z Geedleman called it the ambivalents. Right, 342 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:53.880 So the policy oscillates, But initially you have after Stalin 343 00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:02.319 died in fifty three, you're not that the head of 344 00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:05.680 the MK the NBA day at the time is still Beeria, 345 00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:08.960 but he is so close to associated with Stalin. Khrushchov 346 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:14.079 and Mahlankov want to get rid of him along with 347 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:21.519 Kaganovich and Malotav. Now Berya is executed, Malotov is sent 348 00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:25.480 to me ambassador to the People's Republic of Mongolia or 349 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:30.519 I guess Mongolian People's Republic. Obviously, since it's almost just 350 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:36.000 another Soviet republic, this isn't a big diplomatic posting for Malotav. 351 00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:40.079 And Kaganovich is appointed I think as a director of 352 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:44.759 a cement factory in Siberia. All right. So after this time, 353 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:48.319 with Kaganovich removed, there are no more Jews in the 354 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:51.839 Soviet Pullar Bureau for the rest of its existence. But 355 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:57.119 they still remain overrepresented in the rank and file membership 356 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.519 of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, in part 357 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:05.200 because they have higher education, in part because they're more urbanized, 358 00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:09.799 and also in part because they have put effort into 359 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:12.599 it as a group to try and have as much 360 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:16.839 representation as possible. It's using the government as a type 361 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:22.079 of ethnic industry, as it were. So there's no longer 362 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:28.680 a domination the way there was in the early Soviet 363 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:33.200 regime with the Trotsky and Kamenoff and Zeneviev. And there's 364 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:37.559 no longer any section of the Soviet government that's important, 365 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:41.680 like the political police that has a Jewish domination. But 366 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:46.160 they are overrepresenting the Communist Party. They are overrepresented in 367 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:50.200 a number of desirable positions in the Soviet Union, white 368 00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:58.160 collar jobs, but particularly things like scientists, university lecturers, published writers. 369 00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:02.559 At the two best known and probably best quality wise 370 00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:04.720 science fiction writers out of the Soviet Union, of the 371 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:09.359 Strugatsky brothers, who were Jewish, they wrote Roadside Picnic, which 372 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:14.039 was the inspiration for the movie Stalker. So they have 373 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:18.400 a pretty good position as far as that. And there 374 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:23.839 is no persecution of Jews quad Jews in the post 375 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:29.079 Soviet era, but there is a strong crackdown after the 376 00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:34.640 break with Israel on political Zionists, particularly those who are 377 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:41.079 actively petitioning to emigrate out of the USSR to go 378 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:43.759 to Israel. But again, when you look at total number 379 00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:48.680 arrest total number of incarcerations, we're only talking a few 380 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:52.559 hundred people, which puts it on about the same par 381 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:57.440 as much smaller groups that were doing the same type 382 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:01.759 of things, such as the Korean Tatars, add only one 383 00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:05.160 tenth the total population that the Jews had. 384 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.000 Yeah, that reminded me of something I wanted to ask, 385 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:13.200 just going back, So nineteen forty eight, you have the 386 00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:18.839 foundation of Israel and now there are a diaspora. There 387 00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:22.440 are diaspera people with a home. Was there any talk 388 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:27.480 of getting, you know, deportation or I guess at that 389 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:28.720 point it would have been deportation. 390 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:34.519 Well, there isn't anything in the official Soviet archives about 391 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:39.400 any math deportation of Jews with Soviet citizenship. They said, 392 00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:42.400 the only case where we have is those that refused 393 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:48.720 Soviet citizenship who had Polish passports. In nineteen forty there 394 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:50.880 has always been a lot of writing that there were 395 00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:55.799 rumors going around that they kept cheering on the Metro 396 00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:59.000 and other places that there were planned to deport all 397 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:02.440 the Jews and Thebijan, which was the Jewish autonomous Obla 398 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:07.319 established by Stalin that almost no Jews moved to. But 399 00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:10.599 there's nothing in the archives, so if it was any 400 00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:16.400 planning stage, it was very very embryonic as far as 401 00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.119