WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:01.000 Where'd you grew up New York? 2 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:01.879 I grew up in New York. 3 00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:03.040 I grew up from Williamsburg. 4 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:08.199 Yeah, Williamsburg is actually a section of Brooklyn. Just whether 5 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:10.400 Whitnimsburg Bridge enters Brooklyn. 6 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:19.600 It's the only thing that's not afraid to enter Brooklyn. 7 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:33.719 Welcome to this special Happy Birthday mel Brooks episode of 8 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:37.079 Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and contributions to 9 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:41.240 American popular culture. With mel Brooks becoming a centenarian, it's 10 00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:45.560 the perfect time for a retrospective. I'm Jonathan Friedman, and 11 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:49.799 I'm Joey Angelfield. Producer engineer Mike Tomren is working somewhere 12 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:52.640 behind the scenes. Amusing Jews is a project of a 13 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:56.799 Dot Javareem Congregation for Humanistic Judaism, the Jewish Museum of 14 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:59.479 the American West, and Atheist United Studios. 15 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.079 To chat with Patrick mcgillian, a biographer and film historian 16 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:08.000 whose books include Funny Man mel Brooks. Patrick, Welcome to 17 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:08.760 Amusing Jews. 18 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:10.040 Thank you for inviting me. 19 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:13.400 So, Patrick, why mel Brooks, Well, the. 20 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:19.719 Honest answer is the contract always. But I lived in 21 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:22.359 la I used to see mel Brooks around at restaurants, 22 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:24.879 I was on the set of History of the World. 23 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:27.200 He was a good At the time that I chose him, 24 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:28.920 I thought he was a really good subject. There was 25 00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:32.120 one book about him that was a smaller book, and 26 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:35.359 it was pretty good, but I thought there was a 27 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:39.359 better story, more deeper story behind his great success and 28 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:40.719 his great comedy brand. 29 00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:43.959 Speaking of a deeper story, your book is very expansive, 30 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:47.319 with six hundred and fifty pages, somewhere in that ballpark, 31 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:49.079 and you do a good job of showing the two 32 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:53.680 sides of mel Brooks. Right there's the charming, endearing, antique, 33 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:59.239 lovable mel Brooks, and there's also the controlling, insecure, even 34 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:00.719 angry mel Brooks. 35 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:03.319 I didn't know very much starting out, but you know, 36 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:07.239 having met him and having paid some attention, and you 37 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:12.000 know this, some of his comedy is very, let's say, adamant. 38 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:16.280 He's sometimes angry, but certainly the seeds of this comedy 39 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:21.520 are angry and usually I wrote a book about Clint Eastwood, 40 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:23.520 and I think my entire pitch was behind a guy 41 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:27.639 who plays such a you know, hard tough guy on 42 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.039 the screen has to be a guy who's hard and tough, 43 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:34.159 you know, in private, or he's the greatest actor of 44 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:38.439 all time. And so I went back into Melic's boyhood 45 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:40.639 in his professional life to see that there was a 46 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:43.599 lot of There was a lot of disappointment, failure, seeds 47 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:48.039 of anger controlling everything that you said. And I think 48 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:50.240 for me what was turned out to be really interesting, 49 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:52.560 which I hadn't anticipated at all. It was there was 50 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:58.039 a whole struggle to define himself as a writer and 51 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:00.479 to be a writer, and to do that he often 52 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:07.360 had to control writers and have secret collaborators. I think 53 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.800 he's a great editor of writers. You put him in 54 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.000 a room with three writers, He's going to choose the 55 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:16.840 best joke. But that's in a way that was that 56 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:21.080 was part of his neurosis, if that's the right word. 57 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:24.319 That you know, he was acclaimed early on as a writer, 58 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:26.840 and he was more of a joke smith, a guy 59 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:28.719 who could come up with jokes, and he had to 60 00:03:28.759 --> 00:03:30.840 learn to be a writer. And he was surrounded by 61 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:35.840 great writers and famous writers on staffs where he worked, 62 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:40.840 and that made him insecure and to a certain extent 63 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:44.960 that made him angry, you know, not at them, you 64 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:46.240 know at himself. 65 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:48.800 I know with the writer's room on Sid Caesar's shows, 66 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:51.360 he was known more as a talker, right, he would 67 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:53.719 kind of like shout people down and that sort of thing. 68 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:55.560 I don't know if he wrote anything down on paper. 69 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.840 He had struck up a friendship with Sid Caesar after 70 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:01.400 World War Two and since Or was surging into fame, 71 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:04.879 and Sid Caesar, to his credit, recognize this guy as 72 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:08.280 a great joke teller at a great quick wit, you know, 73 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:12.199 and brash, brash wit. And he hired him as kind 74 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:14.319 of his personal joke teller and started bringing him to 75 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:19.519 you know, writing meetings and sometimes against the opposition and 76 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:22.680 to the consternation of the you know, highly paid professional 77 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:26.959 writers there. And but Mel you know, immediately started making contributions. 78 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:28.519 Sometimes he had to stick his foot in the door 79 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:32.240 and bargin, you know, in order to scream out his jokes. 80 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:37.240 But later on he's on staff with you know, Larry Galbart, 81 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:44.240 Carl Reiner, Woody Allen. Eventually these are consummate writers besides 82 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:48.000 being consummate funny men. And by consummate writers, I mean 83 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:50.879 they could sit down and write. You know, Mel had 84 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:53.720 to for a while find somebody who would sit at 85 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:56.079 the typewriter. You know, he wasn't even able to do 86 00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:58.399 that you know, and then all the way up through 87 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:01.480 most of his career he has ghost writers, so that 88 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:05.560 there's a ghostwriter behind the producers. The story is very fascinating. 89 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:08.120 A lot of people in Hollywood knew it. There's you know, 90 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:11.279 Gene Wilder is the writer of Young Frankenstein. Has many 91 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:15.639 writers on blazing saddles with Mel controlling them and picking 92 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:20.079 out what's best, and then he has writers all the 93 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:23.879 way through the rest of his career. I'm not saying 94 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:26.480 he didn't become a writer, or that you even have 95 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:28.680 to sit down and type to be a writer, or 96 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.120 that you even have to write to be a writer. 97 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:34.240 You know, because Billy Wilder was kind of famous for 98 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:38.319 in his collaborations for being the walker. It would be 99 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:40.639 a walker and a sitter, a sitter would be typing, 100 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:42.800 and you know, Mel would be the walker and there 101 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:48.639 would be a sitter, but Billy Wilder could pretty much dictate, 102 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:51.759 you know, the dialogue and the scene, and you know, 103 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:54.000 the sitter was earning their money just typing and then 104 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:57.560 pitching in and doing little bits here and there. And 105 00:05:57.639 --> 00:05:59.639 Mel was a he was a bit more at sea 106 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:01.439 to be in with. And then it took him a 107 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:03.800 long time and I mean you're talking about him being 108 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:08.040 to some extent his comedy being fierce and adamant and angry. 109 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:11.519 I think today, you know, especially verging on one hundred, 110 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:15.399 you know, he's he's seen as a very cuddly tiger, 111 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:18.079 you know, and a lot of that, a lot of 112 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:22.120 that anger was taken away by success, sophistication, experience, etc. 113 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:25.160 One of the things that I found really interesting as 114 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:31.560 well looking through your book is that when mel isn't performing, 115 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:34.399 it isn't like the mel Brooks character that we all know. 116 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:39.480 His personality isn't quite as strong. Maybe it's almost vacant 117 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:44.560 at times, kind of like since Caesar. Sid Caesar's reputation 118 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:47.720 was that when he wasn't on, he almost had no 119 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:48.759 personality at all. 120 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:51.639 I wish I knew whether it was true of Sid Caesar, 121 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:53.959 even though I met him, but it was much later 122 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:58.839 in his career. But you know, Carl Reiner off camera 123 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:03.680 was was gentlemanly and sweet and quick, you know, but 124 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:11.600 never angry. But you know, you could hear mel shouting 125 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:15.240 in the room, you know, at his staff and boss 126 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:18.879 as staff as the boss, you know, as they're coming 127 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:21.480 down to his room in the studio, you know, in 128 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:26.040 the seventies and eighties, so he had a side in 129 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:31.240 private that was very domineering as well charm more charming, 130 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:33.959 but I wouldn't say more charming, because you know, part 131 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:37.600 of his greatness, I think is that he took that 132 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:43.079 likability and that charm that only Sid Caesar saw, you know, 133 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:47.759 early on, and he gradually brought it into the room 134 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:50.079 and onto the screen so that we see a guy 135 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:54.600 on the screen who's in your face, you know, frequently, 136 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:58.160 but it is very funny, which is a winning quality, 137 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:05.480 and very charming, sometimes dapper, you know, and singing and 138 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:08.800 you know, being you know, giving us his Frank Sinatra 139 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:14.120 imitation inside. So I mean his I think his greatness 140 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:17.040 as an entertainer is that he took that brand and 141 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:19.160 all of the sort of complexity of it, and as 142 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:22.079 you say, sometimes it was out of balance, you know, 143 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:25.800 off screen or on screen, and he found a balance 144 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:30.160 in most of his greatest work that people love as 145 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:34.679 a brand. You know, he kept that whole idea of vaudeville, 146 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:40.759 stick and kitch and bad puns and you know, fart 147 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:44.840 noises and any kind of noise that gets a joke. 148 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:47.919 You know, he took that from the twenties in the 149 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:50.320 thirties when he grew up and when he loved it, 150 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:53.799 you know, when it was dying, you know, and he 151 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:55.919 took it off the screen from the people who were 152 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:59.440 then really prominent in movies and on the stage, who 153 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:03.720 were very well known entertainers. He loved that, you know, 154 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:07.639 he loved that in a way, it's dumb comedy, you know. 155 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:12.360 And he took that dumb comedy and he alone carried 156 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:17.000 it into you know, the post sixties, and had carried 157 00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:19.159 alone for a while before he handed it over to 158 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:23.440 you know, the next generation. Who who the judd apatous 159 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:26.039 and uh, you know, the dumb and dumber people, and 160 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.240 who took it farther and farther, you know, So it's 161 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:33.120 no longer fart jokes. It's shit jokes. And but it's 162 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:38.519 it's it's a Jewish tradition going way way back in vaudeville. 163 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:43.600 In comedy. Uh, it's sometimes verbal quick wit, and sometimes 164 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:47.360 it's very clever, clever, clever wordplay, and other times it's 165 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:51.679 it's you know, uh, it's it's dumb jokes, you know. 166 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:57.000 And sometimes it's slapstick and knock about, you know. And 167 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:00.679 he's pretty good at slapstick and knock about comedy too. 168 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:02.879 And he, you know, while Woody Allen is on you know, 169 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:06.720 the East Coast in the seventies making Annie Hall and 170 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:10.480 trying to be sophisticated and cosmopolitan and more deeply and 171 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:15.639 deeply serious and bergmanesque, you know, Mel is honing his 172 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:19.279 own little like you know, workshop of keeping this other 173 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:23.279 tradition alive, which wood he knows and understands and loves, 174 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:24.720 and so you know, he goes back to it in 175 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:27.200 films like Broadway Danny Rose, which is you know, the 176 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:29.200 kind of movie that Mel would love to have made, 177 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:31.799 you know, whereas would he always would have loved to 178 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.279 have made any movie that Mel made because they made 179 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:38.240 him laugh, you know. And then he'd say that the 180 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:41.559 greatest thing about Mel is that Mel loves his own movies, 181 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:44.080 you know, and he loves his own work, and he 182 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:48.399 loves himself, and the audience loved that about him. Wood 183 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:50.440 he couldn't love his movies, you know, they were they 184 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:53.919 were always imperfect. You know, they weren't as great as 185 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:57.480 Igmar Bergmann or great as Felini, you know, his great, 186 00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:01.240 his great idols. But it didn't matter to Mel because 187 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:04.360 he was not trying to perfect anything other than like 188 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:07.960 a longstanding it to exist in a long standing tradition 189 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:09.399 and do it the best he could. 190 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:12.960 That's an interesting comparison because, you know, mel Brooks's movies 191 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:17.320 are kind of big movies in that sort of over 192 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:22.360 the top way, and Woody Allen's movies are small, and 193 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:25.799 so in some ways we can understand why mel Brooks 194 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:28.399 didn't make that many films and Woody Allan made perhaps 195 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:32.120 too many films. But what you're saying is interesting that 196 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.639 maybe Woody Allan kept making more films because he was 197 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:40.120 never satisfied, whereas mel was very satisfied with his movies 198 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:42.240 and wanted them to kind of have their own space. 199 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:45.759 In some way, wood he's a writer. While we're having 200 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:49.879 this podcast, wood he is writing something. Okay, it may 201 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:55.320 never get published, produced, scene, it may not deserve any 202 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:59.159 of those things, or it might, but he's a born writer. 203 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:02.200 He's going to die a writer. You know. That was 204 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:06.360 Mel's psychological you know thing, But it wasn't something that 205 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:09.639 got him up in the morning and made him go 206 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:12.279 back to work. Got him up in the morning, was 207 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:14.240 wanting to go on top of the mountain and say 208 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:19.600 my name is mel Brooks. And what he admires that, 209 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:22.960 you know, even though that's not what he's doing at all. 210 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.480 So I would say he always had trouble telling a story. 211 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:30.200 That's why he needed writers. He could tell jokes, but 212 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:33.200 telling a story, being a storyteller from beginning to end, 213 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:36.279 that takes a writer. That's that was his that was 214 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:38.919 his hang up. And I think there's a certain point 215 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:42.720 in the early eighties or late seventies, depending on when 216 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:46.000 you want to date it, where he just starts retelling 217 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:50.840 the same story, the same jokes and the same stick 218 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:54.559 and some movies are better and some movies are worse, 219 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:57.039 but it kind of peters off. Then he goes back 220 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:00.240 to Broadway and he tells the same story that he 221 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:02.639 was telling in the movies, which isn't you know for him, 222 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:05.360 as actually a kind of step higher because he always 223 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:07.840 in love, was in love with the stage and Broadway. 224 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:11.399 So to take his greatest works to Broadway and have 225 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:13.720 them be one of the greatest, you know, among the 226 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:17.200 greatest musical hits of all time, is another zenith, you know, 227 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:19.120 for him. But I think you know, when you're doing 228 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:24.200 Robin Hood and uh Dracula and uh you know, the 229 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.279 movies towards the end of his career, some of which 230 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:31.960 are good at times, very good. At times he's repeating 231 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:34.600 ideas you know that we're on Sid Caesar that were 232 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:38.840 sketches that he's now stretching out into a movie that's 233 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:42.919 less exciting than the first time anyone sees something like 234 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:46.320 The Producers, which is, you know, a very astonishing movie, 235 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:49.759 or Blazing Saddles, which I think is for me is 236 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:55.600 his masterpiece, or Young Frankenstein, which is a perfect movie. 237 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:59.799 It too is a Sid Caesar sketch drawn out as 238 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:02.720 a movie, but done by Gene Wilder because it was 239 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:06.320 written by Gene Wilder. So and mel Co wrote it. 240 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:08.000 Then you know, he came in to give it the 241 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:11.399 professional gloss and to be the producer and director of it. 242 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:15.799 And it's beautifully directed. So and Jean didn't even want 243 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:18.399 mel in it because he didn't want mel winking at 244 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.360 the audience. You know, he didn't want that wall broken. 245 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:25.000 So I think if there's a point after that where 246 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:27.879 the movies are you either like them or you don't 247 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:31.159 like I happen to love Space Balls and find it 248 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:33.559 very fresh and original. Of course it wouldn't be fresh 249 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:36.519 and original today, but it was fresh and original for 250 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:39.120 mel because that really wasn't a genre they had spoofed. 251 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.919 You have the read and I see your schwartz is 252 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:43.960 as big as mine. 253 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:50.360 Now let's see how well you handle it. I grew 254 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.639 up with Spaceballs and Young Frankenstein, and I remember when 255 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:55.639 I had like a coming of age birthday, my parents 256 00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:58.399 showed me Blazing Saddles and I quickly understood why, you know, 257 00:14:58.440 --> 00:14:59.960 I had to be a certain age to see it, 258 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:02.080 you know, because it took a certain amount of maturity 259 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:05.120 to take it on. But I also, you know, I 260 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.440 remember at the end of History of the World Part 261 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.240 one there was a joking reference to being a part two, 262 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:13.600 and my parents told me, like, that's mel Brooks. He's 263 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:15.679 making a joke. He's never going to make that. So 264 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:19.559 then I was pretty guffawed to see them make a 265 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:21.559 History of the World Part two. But yeah, I'm wondering, 266 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:23.639 have you watched History of the World Part two where 267 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:25.440 you disappointed? What did you think about it? 268 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:30.480 I did watch it out of curiosity, because when I'm 269 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.919 done with the book, then it's work. But I did 270 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:38.399 watch it out of curiosity and also to see not 271 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:40.559 really what I thought about it in terms of its merits, 272 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.960 but what I thought about it, you know, and look, 273 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:48.840 someone's editing him, but he's no longer the young pup 274 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:50.960 that he was in the nineteen fifties where he's spewing 275 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:55.519 out brilliance every minute, and everybody who is in comedy 276 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:59.720 adores him. So everybody would love to work with him. 277 00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:02.720 And it doesn't mean that people aren't good or aren't 278 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:08.559 first class. You know. I thought jud Appetow's documentary about 279 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:12.279 mel Brooks was was great, not because it was one 280 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:16.600 hundred percent truthful, not because it was the greatest documentary 281 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:22.200 ever made, but because Judge Appatow understood he was incredibly fond. 282 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:28.879 Judd apt Appeta is a towering uh comic talent, filmmaker 283 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:33.440 and writer. So there's you know, I don't want to 284 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:37.159 say they're equal, because it's somehow it it it's not 285 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:41.000 fair to either of them, but he's equivalent to to 286 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.840 a mel Brooks, you know, and so there's nothing to 287 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:48.039 say that there were there weren't parts that made me chuckle, 288 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:54.879 but it was it was diminished capacity, you know, and Mel, 289 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:58.399 not mel being in control at the top of his form. 290 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:00.759 You know, he didn't have have to be quite so 291 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:03.759 much for the Broadway shows because he wasn't directing, he 292 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:07.480 wasn't doing all the writing as other people came in, 293 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:11.319 and he was working from his own script thirty forty 294 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:16.640 fifty years old, or a script whose properties he possessed 295 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:22.279 and owned. But to go back from to the start, 296 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:25.599 you know, and at that age, you worry. I mean, 297 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:30.240 I worry about Larry David doing his show with Barack Obama. 298 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.559 I want them both to look good, you know. And 299 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.880 Larry David, he's older than me, so I don't want 300 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:40.000 him to lose a step, you know, I want him 301 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.400 to be great. So I'm sure all the people did 302 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:46.599 that did that with the best hopes in mind and 303 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:50.039 the best ideas in mind. They probably took the best 304 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:56.519 ideas in the room. They have to respect Mel's opinion regardless, 305 00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:59.759 And so it was. I chuckled and I was amused. 306 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:01.680 But diministry turns, I thought. 307 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:04.160 In your book also you write about how mel Brooks's 308 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:07.559 comedy is consistent to a fault, and by the time 309 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:10.000 we get to the nineties with Robin Hood, men in 310 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:13.519 tights and Dracula dead and loving it, basically fans had 311 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:16.799 abandoned that kind of humor. He wasn't keeping up with 312 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:17.359 the times. 313 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:20.759 I think that's what it was. Those films look pretty 314 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:23.519 good when you see them now, like Robin Hood men 315 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:26.200 in tights, I'm kind of fond of. They all look good. 316 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:29.880 They're well cast, the people are, the performers are great. 317 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:35.200 Mel himself is very funny. He's he's a consummate director 318 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:38.480 at that point. And I think the movie, the remake 319 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:40.519 of Ta Be or Not To Be is pretty good, 320 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:46.880 considering it's impossible, you know, and that it's possibly a 321 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:50.039 dumb idea, you know, to remake that movie, but I 322 00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:54.799 think it's pretty good. I think, yes, he's he's his 323 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:00.480 carrying forward of that old tradition where you know, Madeline 324 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.640 con shows her legs and we go, oh, those are 325 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:09.039 beautiful jewels you have on, you know, or you know, 326 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:12.440 whatever the joke is is no longer funny. You know, 327 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:16.079 the Harvey Korman Carol Burnett school of comedy on television, 328 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:20.039 which is kind of lewde and lascivious, but never really 329 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:25.079 it's gone, you know, because we've seen women on the 330 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:29.839 bathroom farting and shooting and dumb and dumber people doing 331 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:35.559 that and all kinds of scatological you know, dialogue that 332 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:39.720 was shocking. You know, it's more shocking. It's probably not 333 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:42.799 more shocking than Blazing Saddles in the N word, it's not, 334 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:47.200 you know, but it's as shocking and a whole whole 335 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:51.000 different cultural sphere. So so they brought it in and 336 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:53.000 it is never going to go away. Now the N 337 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.359 word comes in and goes back. It depends on like 338 00:19:55.599 --> 00:20:01.200 sometimes with this black filmmakers, the actor, it's not as certainly, 339 00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:04.640 or it's hip hop music, you know, so it goes 340 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:07.880 in and it goes out. But it's still shocking in 341 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:13.000 Blazing Saddles because you don't see it, you know, used 342 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:16.400 in that kind of way by anybody else, in a 343 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:21.279 Richard Pryor esque way. And possibly you couldn't do it nowadays, 344 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:22.440 but you can do everything else. 345 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:26.839 I remember at the Society for Nineteenth Century Historians presentation 346 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:30.519 that you gave on Blazing Saddles, you mentioned that it 347 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:32.079 is the only true Western. 348 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:34.759 I think it's a Western, you know, you know Western, 349 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:38.720 like who is a Richard Slatkin his name, you know 350 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.799 who wrote Gunfighter Nation, which is a famous, famous like 351 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:47.319 history of what the gunfighter myth, and it examines literature 352 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:51.319 and films too. He notoriously or famously opposed, you know, 353 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.279 considering Blazing Saddles a Western. I think it's a great 354 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:59.119 Western because it gets all the cliches. It reminds you 355 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.160 they are a cliche. Then it breaks the fourth wall 356 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.759 into like the studio to show you they're filming it 357 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:07.640 as a cliche. And then it ends up with the actors, 358 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:10.039 you know, watching it eating popcorn and then writing off 359 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:14.000 into the sunset in a limousine, you know, which is 360 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:17.880 exactly Adam. You and I've probably discussed as I'm not 361 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:21.319 the world's greatest fan of Westerns because I find they're 362 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.880 full of bs. You know. Julius Epstein, who wrote Casa 363 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:28.480 Blanc I told me, you know, he never wrote a Western, 364 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:31.119 or he might have written a semi Western, like with 365 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:33.880 his brother on assignment was but he said he couldn't 366 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.200 take him seriously. There's such bs, you know, and they're 367 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.839 usually historical bs, which is worse, you know, because all 368 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.480 Westerns are an argument about what is factual and what 369 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:49.200 is historical, and you see just horrible things, you know, 370 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:53.839 that are accepted as truth, you know, in American culture 371 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:56.200 because of Western So I like the ones that are 372 00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:01.279 completely opposed to all that, or completely diverge from all that, 373 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.359 or try to be honest or realistic about you know, 374 00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:08.039 what the West happened to be? And Blazing Saddles does 375 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:09.799 you know it? 376 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:10.519 Does it? 377 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:14.880 You know? You said Joey talked about how you know 378 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.279 people you watched Blazing Saddles as a kid and you 379 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:22.200 got it. But you can't show it to college kids 380 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:26.400 today without them first laughing but not getting it. You know. 381 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.119 So when I show it to my film classes, I 382 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:31.920 afterwards come in with a list of like thirteen questions 383 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:35.079 or you know, however many there are saying, you know, 384 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:37.720 why is it funny that there's only one ice cream flavor? 385 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.160 You know at the Howard Johnson's ice cream stand. You know, 386 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.480 they don't know, but they're laughing. You know, who is 387 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:47.480 Madeline Khn making fun of or vamping in the movie? 388 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:51.680 They don't know, but they're laughing, so they don't know. 389 00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:59.000 It's actually a richly textured script from you know, we 390 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:02.279 only mentioned you know to the writers mel Brooks and 391 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:06.319 Richard Pryor, but it was originated by Andrew Bergman as 392 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:09.440 a as a as exactly what it was about a 393 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:11.720 black sheriff comedy about a black sheriff coming to a 394 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:14.400 white town. So he has a huge hand in it. 395 00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:16.480 And then he and then there are two other like 396 00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:21.440 really well known comedy writers who became or were really 397 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:24.839 well known for being experts, you know. So it was 398 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:30.839 this superbly textured, layered, dense comedy in which you could 399 00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:33.000 be laughing at one joke, like, you know, the Indians 400 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.960 come on and they speak Yiddish. The kids don't know 401 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.000