1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Apologetics three fifteen podcast with 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,199 your hosts Brian Auten and Chad Gross join us for 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,800 conversations and interviews on the topics of apologetics, evangelism, and 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,160 the Christian worldview. 5 00:00:19,399 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 2: That day, for no particular reason, I decide to go 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:24,760 for a little runner. 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,559 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Apologetics three fifteen podcast. I'm Brian Aughton 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,359 and in this episode, we explore the intersection of ethics, endurance, 9 00:00:33,719 --> 00:00:39,119 and spiritual formation with ultra runner, philosopher and writer Sabrina 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,320 b Little. Sabrina is a five time US champion in 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,719 ultra marathon events, a former member of Team USA, and 12 00:00:47,759 --> 00:00:52,280 a researcher and lecturer in philosophy with a focus on virtue, ethics, 13 00:00:52,359 --> 00:00:56,880 and moral formation. She's also a contributing writer for Running 14 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,359 Times and I Run Far. Today we're discussed seeing the 15 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:04,799 formative power of endurance sports, how they can cultivate virtue, 16 00:01:05,359 --> 00:01:09,159 expose vice, and serve as a training ground not just 17 00:01:09,239 --> 00:01:11,920 for the body, but for the soul. Chat's not with 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,519 us today. He's looking at a certain property in downtown 19 00:01:16,599 --> 00:01:20,239 New York. I think it's an abandoned firehouse anyway, and 20 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,280 he was going to go to the bank straight after 21 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,200 or something about a third mortgage or something. But at 22 00:01:26,239 --> 00:01:29,280 any rate, he's not with us today, but in the 23 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,079 following week I'll be away and he'll be doing an interview. 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,480 So we're doing a little bit of juggling right now. 25 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,760 I hope you'll enjoy this interview. It's a little bit 26 00:01:37,799 --> 00:01:41,319 different than normal. But I have an interest in trail 27 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,359 running and running around in the mountains and such and 28 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,319 came across Sabrina's book, loved it and thought I want 29 00:01:49,319 --> 00:01:53,239 to talk to her about character formation and how things 30 00:01:53,359 --> 00:01:57,120 like running or endurance sports can really give us some 31 00:01:57,159 --> 00:02:01,840 insights into character formation. I hope you'll enjoy it. Let's 32 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:02,680 go to the interview. 33 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: Let's get ready. Switch me on. 34 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: Well, Sabrina be Little, thanks for joining me for the podcast. 35 00:02:11,439 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. 36 00:02:13,159 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: So here's my story about finding your book. I was 37 00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:20,319 I've been getting into more and more running and endurance 38 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,240 and training and that sort of thing, and I was 39 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,960 looking through various books and I came across your book, 40 00:02:26,039 --> 00:02:29,120 which is called The Examined Run Why Good People Make 41 00:02:29,159 --> 00:02:31,639 Better Runners. So I was intrigued by the title. And 42 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,159 there's a lot of running books out there, and I thought, well, 43 00:02:35,159 --> 00:02:38,080 that sounds sort of philosophical because I'm thinking, you know, 44 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,599 the Examined Life. And I was intrigued. So I downloaded 45 00:02:41,599 --> 00:02:43,599 it and I listened to it. I was like, Wow, 46 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,560 this is great. This is a great hybrid book. I'm 47 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,039 totally interested in both these topics, and so all the 48 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,039 examples were really great, and it kind of reminded me 49 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,199 of you know, the Apostle Paul talking about running the race, 50 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,919 and it just made me realize there's so many analogies 51 00:03:00,479 --> 00:03:05,879 for spiritual development, character developments, virtue development that you see 52 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,039 in endurance sports. So thank you for writing that book. 53 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,759 Really great. I'm gone through it twice now. And so 54 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,680 tell me a little bit about yourself and your journey, 55 00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:19,080 and how did you get into this ultra running and 56 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:20,639 philosophy and ethics. 57 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. 58 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 3: I mean, so starting in high school, I was really 59 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,800 interested in Christian apologetics. So that's kind of the on 60 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,439 road that I had into philosophy. I didn't know that 61 00:03:33,439 --> 00:03:35,919 there was such a thing called philosophy, but I knew, 62 00:03:36,319 --> 00:03:38,639 you know, in some of the humanities classes in my 63 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:42,240 high school, you would read things like Plato's Republic, and 64 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,719 we read a little bit of Aristotle, and we would 65 00:03:45,759 --> 00:03:49,080 read the Odyssey and things like that, like these great texts. 66 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,960 And at the same time, at home, I just was 67 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,000 really interested in engaging questions of faith, and so I 68 00:03:56,599 --> 00:04:01,199 kept finding things like John Lennox's, you know, Reflections on 69 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,919 Science and Faith and things like that. So when I 70 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,199 went to college, I thought that I was going to 71 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,240 be a science person. I signed up for all of 72 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,039 these science classes, but it was a liberal arts curriculum, 73 00:04:12,199 --> 00:04:15,520 and so I was required to take some philosophy classes. 74 00:04:15,599 --> 00:04:20,639 And so in my first philosophy class, I didn't really 75 00:04:20,759 --> 00:04:23,079 like it. They were asking a lot of questions but 76 00:04:23,199 --> 00:04:26,560 didn't provide clean answers the way that I was getting 77 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,959 in my science classes. But over the course of the semester, 78 00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:33,079 I just started to kind of feel at home in 79 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:38,040 a tradition of inquiry, and I was also discovering more 80 00:04:38,959 --> 00:04:43,399 like thinkers that I found interesting and compelling, some of 81 00:04:43,439 --> 00:04:46,600 which were in the Christian tradition, so Augustine and Aquinas 82 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,920 and people like that Church fathers. I also found Plato 83 00:04:51,079 --> 00:04:55,279 and Aristotle, who I've spent a lot of time with over. 84 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 2: The next several years. 85 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 3: So I ended up graduating as philosophy and psychology double major, 86 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,079 and have continued on that path. So that's how I 87 00:05:05,079 --> 00:05:10,040 got into philosophy running. Honestly, I don't remember life before running. 88 00:05:10,759 --> 00:05:13,519 It's something that I've always loved to do. I played 89 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,079 a lot of sports growing up, soccer, basketball, volleyball, field hockey, 90 00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:20,519 and the through line was that I was always good 91 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,160 at the running part. So I started winnowing down my 92 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,040 activities when I got to high school and just doing 93 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,839 running for its own sake and loved it. Entered college 94 00:05:33,879 --> 00:05:37,920 to run and fell into the trail and ultra scene 95 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:38,839 kind of that way. 96 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,079 Speaker 1: Well, I'll have to toot your horn when it comes 97 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,439 to the philosophy part. Now. From reading the book, I 98 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:52,160 was really impressed by your precision and your thoroughness. It 99 00:05:52,199 --> 00:05:55,680 was just like, wow, this is scholarly, but this is 100 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,360 also talking about training and racing and things like that, 101 00:05:59,439 --> 00:06:02,160 and so I could really tell that you're a precise 102 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,800 thinker and very clear and able to teach. I very 103 00:06:06,879 --> 00:06:09,439 much appreciated that part of it. But someone goes to 104 00:06:09,439 --> 00:06:11,759 your website, which is Sabrina Little dot com, they'll see 105 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:17,639 this whole list of championship things and stuff. So what 106 00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:20,279 are some of the longer races you've done are the 107 00:06:20,319 --> 00:06:22,160 ones that maybe you might be proud of. 108 00:06:23,199 --> 00:06:24,079 Speaker 2: Yeah. 109 00:06:24,399 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 3: I have been really fortunate to be able to participate 110 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,560 in a number of US national teams, so representing the 111 00:06:31,639 --> 00:06:35,759 United States and international competition, and anytime I get that 112 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,600 chance that is those are my favorite moments because a 113 00:06:39,639 --> 00:06:44,040 lot of times the sport is very individual and you 114 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,319 just it's just you out there alone, which is wonderful and. 115 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 2: A great reflective space. 116 00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 3: But having US national team opportunities means that you're running 117 00:06:55,079 --> 00:06:58,800 with people and it's the shared endeavor, and the experiences 118 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,600 are heightened and just so enjoyable because of that. 119 00:07:02,079 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: So I guess the high. 120 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 3: Points in my career are that I've won five national titles, 121 00:07:07,879 --> 00:07:10,800 which generally means you get placed on a national team 122 00:07:10,839 --> 00:07:14,759 when that happens if you perform really well in national championships. 123 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:19,680 So then I've been placed on five national teams. I've 124 00:07:20,279 --> 00:07:23,240 been a world silver medalist in the twenty four hour run, 125 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,680 and I set the American record in that event in 126 00:07:27,759 --> 00:07:30,399 both the two hundred k and the twenty four hour. 127 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,920 Since broken, the level of the sport continues to raise, 128 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,160 which is super fun and exciting. More people are running 129 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,160 than ever before. So yeah, those are some of my 130 00:07:41,279 --> 00:07:41,879 high points. 131 00:07:42,079 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so great stuff, very impressive. And so now you 132 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,079 do some coaching and stuff like that. 133 00:07:48,839 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I coached for seven years and then in 134 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,839 one of the universities that I worked at, I was 135 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,279 just a volunteer assistant coach on the NCAA team at 136 00:08:02,279 --> 00:08:05,240 the university. Right now, I have a four year old 137 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:07,240 to two year old and I'm prite it with my 138 00:08:07,319 --> 00:08:13,279 third So my coaching commitments are less lesser at the moment, 139 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:15,439 but I'm hoping to get back into it eventually. 140 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,279 Speaker 1: Yes, very good. That's really great. So we've talked about 141 00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:22,120 your background and stuff, and part of my motivation and 142 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,360 doing the interview and having you on was, first off, 143 00:08:25,519 --> 00:08:27,879 I love the book. It wasn't like someone sent me 144 00:08:27,879 --> 00:08:30,000 the book and hey, can we be on your podcast 145 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:33,360 or something. But this is one where I like, oh, 146 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,120 I have to talk to her because I want to 147 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:38,240 know more. Because I've been reading a bit about development 148 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,080 of virtue and the different you know, the fruits of 149 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,960 the spirit and things of that nature. And one thing 150 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,200 that struck the chord with me about the topic is 151 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,480 this idea that there's certain discipline things that you It's 152 00:08:51,519 --> 00:08:55,279 like fruit. You can't just have fruit tomorrow, you have 153 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,320 to cultivate it. And in order to have things like patience, 154 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,639 you can't be patient. Patient wants and now you're a 155 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,440 patient person. It's sort of like there's a time when 156 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:06,919 you just have to keep growing the beard and then 157 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,360 you can say, Okay, finally you have the beard, because 158 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:12,000 we can see more beard than face now, you know. 159 00:09:12,159 --> 00:09:14,000 But there's a point where they's stubble, and it's like 160 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,399 you can't say you have that beard, you know. So 161 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,440 it's the same thing like virtue fordmation. But the analog 162 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,320 here with sports is that you can't go out there 163 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,679 and run one hundred miles tomorrow you'll die, you know, 164 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,240 you kill yourself. But one can if they work, they develop, 165 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,960 They do these disciplines and they train themselves. So I 166 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,720 suppose the idea here is training for righteousness or training 167 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,919 the virtues or character developments. Can you talk a bit 168 00:09:42,919 --> 00:09:46,559 about what is virtue and how you relate that to 169 00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:48,200 athletics in its development? 170 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so many things that I could say. 171 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,039 Speaker 3: So, first of all, in the tradition seving from Aristotle, 172 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,200 the way that virtues are described like the word is arete, 173 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,759 which just means excellent, Right, So how do you become 174 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:04,799 a more excellent instance of your kind as. 175 00:10:04,519 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 2: A human being? Right? 176 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 3: And there are going to be some like theologically nested 177 00:10:10,159 --> 00:10:13,559 assumptions in here. So first of all, on Aristotle's picture, 178 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,159 it's like how do you acquire them? You acquire them 179 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,039 by practice. So he says, men become builders by building, 180 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,519 and liar players by playing the liar. So to we 181 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,799 become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts. 182 00:10:25,879 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 2: Right. 183 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 3: Because virtues are a kind of habit, he uses the 184 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:34,480 word hexus or active disposition. It's something that's formed by repetition. 185 00:10:34,759 --> 00:10:36,600 So you have to do it to be it. And 186 00:10:36,639 --> 00:10:39,720 so this takes out the guess work, right, because you 187 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,519 just repeatedly do the good thing and until it defines 188 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:46,440 you in a stable way. The Christian picture is a 189 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,240 little more textured, just insofar as like what is the 190 00:10:51,639 --> 00:10:55,440 great good of a human life? For someone like Thomas Aquinas, 191 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,919 it would be like beotific vision, right, knowing and seeing God. 192 00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:04,399 And so what's interesting is like so he describes virtues 193 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,240 being formed in two ways. First, you have faith, hope, 194 00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:10,000 and love, and they're infused in you there's nothing you 195 00:11:10,039 --> 00:11:13,440 can add to that, Like you are given these things, 196 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,159 but then you also have this like natural way of 197 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,879 like you're supposed to participate in your sanctification. Right, It's 198 00:11:22,919 --> 00:11:26,879 something that's this ongoing work in you, and it's not passive, right, 199 00:11:26,919 --> 00:11:31,000 So you are developing that fruit over time. And one 200 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:33,440 way I like to think about this is like, so 201 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:38,080 there's the athletic kind of like daily working out the goal, right, 202 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,159 daily drawing closer toward that finish line, or acting in 203 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,919 light of that finish line. But I also think that 204 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:49,519 sports gives us a vision for understanding what this looks like, 205 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,879 just insofar as I love running, and so there are 206 00:11:53,879 --> 00:11:55,879 a lot of things that I do in ordering my 207 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,519 life toward success in my sport. And so if I 208 00:11:59,639 --> 00:12:03,679 love God, right, if that is like this central love 209 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,399 of my life, there should be certain actions that I'm 210 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,559 taking that are reflective of that love, right, like certain 211 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,840 ordering disciplines or way that I am drawing closer to 212 00:12:13,879 --> 00:12:17,159 God on a regular basis. And so it's this thing 213 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,840 that's freely given. Right, There's like nothing I can add 214 00:12:21,879 --> 00:12:27,519 in terms of saving myself. And yet because I've received 215 00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:30,039 this gift of love, there are certain ways in which 216 00:12:30,039 --> 00:12:33,000 I draw closer on a daily basis, and I and 217 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:36,159 I practice being more excellent with that kind of vision 218 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:36,679 in mind. 219 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe you could talk about what's the difference between 220 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,799 virtue and vice and is someone virtuous or is someone 221 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,360 full of vice. One of the books you referenced in 222 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:55,080 your own book was one by Christian Oh what is it? 223 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,559 Called The Character Gap? By Christian's Yeah, so I went 224 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,600 and read that too. He you know, he was talking 225 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,279 about how no one is fully one thing or fully 226 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,840 the other, but there's a mixture. And I wonder what 227 00:13:08,879 --> 00:13:11,919 your thoughts are on that, and how virtue and vice 228 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,320 are maybe on a spectrum or something. 229 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 230 00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 3: Right, So when the ancients start talking about virtue and vice, 231 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,960 it's like to meet the standard of virtue means you 232 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:31,240 consistently act well from the right motivations across situations long term, 233 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:31,679 which is. 234 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 2: An exceedingly high bar. 235 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 3: Right. So thinking about honesty, for example, that would be 236 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,639 like I'm honest to my friends and my family, I'm 237 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:45,039 honest on my taxes, I'm honest like in you know, 238 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,559 when I'm taking examinations and when I'm talking to myself 239 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,720 about my sport and so forth. Like all these little 240 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:57,120 moments pertain to honesty and having that consistent level of excellence, 241 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,960 but also being honest for the right reason, right in 242 00:14:01,039 --> 00:14:04,919 the right ways, and so forth, experiencing fitting emotions toward it, 243 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,919 not doing it begrudgingly. So that's an exceedingly high bar, 244 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,559 and the same can be true. The same can be 245 00:14:10,639 --> 00:14:14,960 said of vices. To consistently choose the wrong thing long 246 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,240 term for the wrong reasons. Having that kind of consistency 247 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,240 is really hard. So realistically, do most of us hit 248 00:14:23,399 --> 00:14:25,000 those standards? 249 00:14:25,639 --> 00:14:26,279 Speaker 1: Probably not. 250 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: Most of us are probably somewhere in the middle. 251 00:14:29,159 --> 00:14:33,399 Speaker 3: And what Christian Miller says is that we act consistently 252 00:14:33,559 --> 00:14:38,039 enough that reveals that we do have traits with respect 253 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,840 to these things. Like, for example, say you are honest 254 00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:45,200 to your friends on a regular basis, you'll probably continue. 255 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 2: To be honest to your friends. 256 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 3: If you consistently, like have high integrity on your taxes, 257 00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:51,600 you'll probably continue to. 258 00:14:51,679 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: Have that be the case. 259 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 3: But you're not meeting this very high bar or not 260 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,600 meeting this very low bar. So you're probably somewhere in 261 00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:01,879 the middle with what he calls says mixed traits. And 262 00:15:01,919 --> 00:15:05,720 so what that means is you have ample room to grow, 263 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,639 the ample room to improve your character toward virtue. Most 264 00:15:10,679 --> 00:15:16,240 of us have considerable space for progress in our moral lives. 265 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,879 Speaker 1: Sort of crossing the streams here between character development and 266 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,279 sort of like alphaical philosophy through the academic side of 267 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,519 things like Aristotle and different thinkers and stuff. And then 268 00:15:29,519 --> 00:15:32,879 you've got the spiritual side of things where we're talking 269 00:15:32,919 --> 00:15:38,519 more theologically, where thinking about sanctification, for instance, how do 270 00:15:38,559 --> 00:15:43,879 you see those interacting, Because there's an aspect where, for instance, 271 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,600 the scripture would say you are sanctified, but we're also 272 00:15:47,639 --> 00:15:50,639 being sanctified. So there's the now not yet aspect of that. 273 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,279 I wonder maybe if you could unpack your thoughts on 274 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,960 that on how you know, because as you say, there's 275 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,360 a huge, huge, high high bar and I mean no, 276 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,399 of course, as Christians, we know we can't make that standard, 277 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,679 but we're still striving for it. But we're not striving 278 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:12,080 in order to attain salvation. We're already saved. However, we 279 00:16:12,159 --> 00:16:16,240 are still striving for sanctification and we're working and God 280 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,320 is working. So how do you, as you've thought through 281 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,679 these things, how do you see those two interacting. 282 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:27,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a complex question, right, Like, in both cases, 283 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:28,559 I have work to do. 284 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: But in the Christian case, it's like. 285 00:16:31,559 --> 00:16:34,679 Speaker 3: I'm not the only one doing work, and I'm not 286 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:38,600 the initiator of this work. Right, He's begun this good 287 00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:41,600 work in me and is seeing it through to completion, 288 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:45,159 and I am just like doing my best toddling through 289 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,840 trying to contribute constructively to that work or participate in 290 00:16:49,879 --> 00:16:52,240 that work. So like I don't know when I am 291 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:57,840 thinking of from like the Aristotelian type approach, it's like 292 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,240 I'm waking up and and have an agenda and you know, 293 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,480 trying to work through my own excellences and trying to 294 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,519 you know, like become a more excellent instance of my 295 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,599 kind as a human. When I'm waking up from the 296 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,440 Christian perspective, like that perspective is I am participating in 297 00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:22,279 the rhythm of God's grace and it is work that 298 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,880 has already begun in me, right, and so I am 299 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,440 not like the author of that work. And so that's 300 00:17:29,519 --> 00:17:32,559 like a different it's a different approach. It's also a 301 00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:36,359 different finish line, right, you know, Like on the Oriscicilian picture, 302 00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:39,200 it's like I'm going to try to get myself to 303 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,319 become as good as I can on my own terms, 304 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,039 through my own faculties and the limits of my own imagination. 305 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,680 And on the Christian picture, it's like there's a person 306 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,799 and I'm trying to drop closer to that person. Yeah, 307 00:17:54,839 --> 00:17:58,559 and then right, like in both cases, I think both 308 00:17:58,599 --> 00:18:01,839 pictures kind of offer you honesty in terms of like 309 00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:08,799 what you are, like your defects, right, But in one case, 310 00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:12,039 like in the natural case, it's like that's on me, 311 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,960 and in the other case, I'm kind of disinburdened from 312 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,640 seeing it as fully, Like when I mess up, it's like, Okay, 313 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,880 well christ already did this thing right, And it's kind 314 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,519 of funny, Like I think it's is it care of 315 00:18:27,559 --> 00:18:31,720 guard who makes some comment about how no one is 316 00:18:31,759 --> 00:18:34,400 free to laugh quite like the saint is, because the 317 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,440 saint is disburdened from having to save himself, like he 318 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,920 can see his incongruities, he can see the ways in 319 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,920 which he falls short, and also he knows that he 320 00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:47,920 is going to fall short, and there's this other person there. 321 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,319 So yeah, I mean, it's definitely like a switching of perspectives, 322 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:55,960 primarily in terms of where you're going, but also your 323 00:18:56,039 --> 00:18:59,359 authorship in becoming more excellent. 324 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, now I want to ask about what role do 325 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,160 you think maybe habit and discipline play informing virtue and 326 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,519 maybe as it relates to sports. 327 00:19:10,079 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean sports is really a great laboratory for virtue. 328 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 2: I think just because you show. 329 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,559 Speaker 3: Up every day with the intention of improving, right, and 330 00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:24,359 you do it out of like this kind of love. Right, Like, 331 00:19:24,519 --> 00:19:27,519 if I love the sport be it soccer, be running, 332 00:19:27,559 --> 00:19:29,799 be it something else, I want to show up and 333 00:19:29,839 --> 00:19:32,519 I want to improve, right, And that kind of like 334 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,720 intentional repetition is a really good framework for working on 335 00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:40,960 virtues that are acquired by repetition. So I think, like 336 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:44,839 not having a practice space like this, and honestly, does 337 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:46,759 it have to be sport, No, Like you could be 338 00:19:46,839 --> 00:19:49,200 really into gardening or music or something else. 339 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,599 Speaker 2: Sports is just like my own space, and so it's 340 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,160 a space that I know really well. 341 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 3: But if you have this kind of practice space where 342 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,920 you can show up every day and intentionally work on things, 343 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,000 and that's not just like the physical practice, but also 344 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,279 the habits of mind, learning to deal with kind of 345 00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:13,240 outsized emotions, practicing being diligent, practicing like failing, coming up 346 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,640 against other people's excellences and learning how to navigate, like 347 00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:19,680 how to deal with that in a way that has 348 00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:23,480 dignity that is really valuable in terms of doing the 349 00:20:23,519 --> 00:20:28,720 work of being formed. Whereas if I didn't have that space, well, 350 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,039 you know, sometimes there could be occasions to work on 351 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,200 courage in my life, but they're not going to be 352 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,240 a regular thing, you know, or patients, Like, there's not 353 00:20:40,279 --> 00:20:43,480 going to be the systematic and regular coming up against 354 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,279 needing to wait in the way that you get in sports. 355 00:20:47,319 --> 00:20:50,279 And so I think it's this really unique space that 356 00:20:50,319 --> 00:20:54,920 we have to practice virtue. I also think there's a 357 00:20:55,039 --> 00:21:00,000 kind of when you are working on virtues in normal 358 00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:04,559 I think sometimes the risks and stakes are higher. Like, 359 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,400 for example, say you're working on courage in a workout, Well, 360 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,279 if you fail during the workout, what is that going 361 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,000 to look like? Maybe you blow up, right because you 362 00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:17,119 go too quickly and you assume too much risk and 363 00:21:17,759 --> 00:21:21,559 experience not enough fear, and that's a problem. But if 364 00:21:21,599 --> 00:21:25,519 you do it, like say you send a really firmly 365 00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:28,799 worded email to a boss you know who you've been 366 00:21:28,839 --> 00:21:32,799 too mousey around and you assume too much risk, well 367 00:21:32,839 --> 00:21:36,400 that could cost you your job, right, So having this 368 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,839 kind of like practice space to work on your character, 369 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,799 I think is a really neat opportunity for the repetition, 370 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,599 but also because the stakes are a lot lower if 371 00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:46,200 you mess up. 372 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's in a way there are virtues that you 373 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,400 seem to gain that I'm trying to think of the 374 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:58,160 term that the transferable skills sort of thing, where, for instance, 375 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:04,559 I would think that I'm more resilient, more determined, more 376 00:22:04,799 --> 00:22:09,039 focused because of training that I've done. I think that 377 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,640 transfers to other areas of my life. I kind of 378 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,680 think that there are certain traits that through doing the 379 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,200 physical training. I think that it's true that one becomes 380 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,880 a different type of person in a good way, and 381 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,680 it also becomes I kind of had this idea that 382 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:31,359 every race is a microcosm of life, and the longer 383 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,880 the race, the more it is a picture of life, 384 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,440 because it's like you can go through every single emotion, 385 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,480 and you can have ups and downs, and there's high 386 00:22:42,519 --> 00:22:45,720 points and low points, and there's sort of this learning 387 00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:51,119 aspect to it, where Okay, I just learned life lessons 388 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,920 and I was just running. I wonder if maybe you've 389 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,119 had those experiences and maybe you can give us some 390 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,319 examples and elaborate and elaborate on that. 391 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it really is a life in a 392 00:23:02,319 --> 00:23:06,400 day kind of experience in some of these races, because 393 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,279 in races, your emotions are heightened, first of all, and 394 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,920 so sometimes you're dealing with the ugliness of yourself in 395 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,480 a compressed space, like you get frustrated or and you 396 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:21,759 just have to sit there with your frustration or I mean, 397 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,240 you've promised yourself that you'll get to the finish and 398 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,440 you really want to quit, right, and so there's this 399 00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:32,960 irresolution in yourself and you have to overcome and show 400 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,039 yourself kind of one step at a time that you 401 00:23:35,079 --> 00:23:37,839 can see the task through completion. 402 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 2: And so I think that's definitely the case. 403 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 3: And in terms of like the resilience that you talked about, right, 404 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,799 So resilience, what is that. It's kind of like maintaining 405 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,720 effective agency and the face of setbacks, right, continuing to 406 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,160 choose and act in light of the possibility of renewal 407 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,319 even when there's minimal evidence that you can finish or 408 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,920 something like that. I mean, there is empirical evidence that 409 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,720 during play this is formed in fact one of the worries. 410 00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:14,400 So there's this book by Jonathan Hite, where he talks 411 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,799 about the Anxious generation, how our children are being undone 412 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,000 by screens, and one of the literatures he engages is 413 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:29,000 the impact of play on forging resilience that is lost 414 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,000 if you just have a screen based childhood. Right. And 415 00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:36,839 I've really seen this play out in my own running, 416 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,920 right because because I've been able to push through when 417 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:45,240 I don't think it's possible, and also even when I 418 00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:49,880 fail and have been soundly defeated in races and it's 419 00:24:50,039 --> 00:24:53,559 my fault and all these things, I have to show 420 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,839 up the next day and keep training until learning to 421 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,160 show up even when you've failed is really a valuable 422 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,519 life skill that can transfer over. 423 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it seems like another thing would be like 424 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,440 you're training not in just like like you're there's an 425 00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:14,519 ultimate telloss of a goal that you're trying to cheo. 426 00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:17,519 Let's say, and I'm I'm thinking of how a race 427 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,319 equates to the Christian life, for instance, and the training 428 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,720 aspect of it where you're running the race, but you're 429 00:25:24,799 --> 00:25:27,160 running the race and you happen to be training at 430 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,279 the same time, but you're thinking about not just today, 431 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,319 but how is this going to prepare me? For tomorrow 432 00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:35,480 and the next day, and then what am I going 433 00:25:35,519 --> 00:25:37,680 to do to build upon that and that. So there's 434 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,279 an aspect of foresight and sort of a long term view, 435 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,039 and I think that's really helpful because as Christians we 436 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,400 have to have that long term view and we have 437 00:25:49,559 --> 00:25:56,480 to build upon the virtues and acknowledge, like honestly acknowledge 438 00:25:56,599 --> 00:25:58,519 or lax and say, well, how am I actually going 439 00:25:58,559 --> 00:26:01,680 to change these things? Work on them over time? 440 00:26:01,799 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 3: You know? 441 00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:04,759 Speaker 2: Yeah? Right? And I think right. 442 00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 3: So in Scripture there's the passage on the Race for Faith. 443 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,640 I think one way in which we consistently move forward 444 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,319 through those periods of recognition of frailties. Like that whole 445 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:21,000 section is placed with like the context of there are 446 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,359 other saints who've done this, and you're not alone, And 447 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,000 I think that's so emboldening. 448 00:26:26,279 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 2: Like any time that. 449 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 3: I've had a workout that is really challenging, having a 450 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,160 friend there who's also running it gets so much more 451 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,160 out of you, right, because it's rare that you feel 452 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,000 bad at the same time, or even just knowing that 453 00:26:43,079 --> 00:26:45,440 other people have done the same route and they've gotten 454 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:46,000 it done. 455 00:26:46,079 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 2: It's like something that. 456 00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:50,519 Speaker 3: Is so encouraging and so I resonate with that part 457 00:26:50,519 --> 00:26:53,319 of that passage where it's like these are all these 458 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,799 great heroes of faith and now they are the audience, right, 459 00:26:56,839 --> 00:27:00,359 and they've been there before. It kind of like, yeah, 460 00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:04,240 it shows you it can be done, and when you 461 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,200 feel weak, you kind of draw on the vision that 462 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,400 they've set out for you and show you that it's possible. 463 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 2: No. 464 00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:15,519 Speaker 1: So I've been thinking about how in athletics or running 465 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,799 or any sort of support someone's in, there is a 466 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:22,400 certain effect that someone wants from its training stimulus. So 467 00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:24,680 they know that this sort of workout is going to 468 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,720 give them this sort of effect. And that's great because 469 00:27:28,759 --> 00:27:32,920 once you sort of learn yourself and learn the effects, 470 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:38,799 you can kind of plan your outcome within certain you know, targets, 471 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,279 you know, within certain expectations, and you can kind of 472 00:27:43,839 --> 00:27:46,480 work on yourself based upon how you're responding to that. 473 00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:50,039 So when we're talking about like those are so like 474 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,880 physical disciplines, right, but when we're talking about spiritual formation 475 00:27:54,079 --> 00:27:59,160 and spiritual disciplines, I see the principle there from the athletics, 476 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,400 and I see how there are certain things that one 477 00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:05,799 does if they are doing training, that there is something 478 00:28:05,799 --> 00:28:08,880 transferable I'm just wondering when it comes to character formation 479 00:28:09,599 --> 00:28:14,160 and spiritual development. Is the workout if you will, spiritual disciplines, 480 00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:18,200 is it my prayer life? Is it reading scripture? Is 481 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,799 it fellowship? Is it all of those things? Would that 482 00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:26,480 sort of be the analog or the sort of thing that, Okay, 483 00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:30,119 you know, engage in these things and you will bear fruit. 484 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,319 This will cause certain changes in your character and things 485 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,200 like that. What would you say to that idea? 486 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: I think so. 487 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 3: I don't think that athletics should ever be thought of 488 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:47,319 as a standalone tool for the formation of your character. Right, So, 489 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,240 like Christian context aside, Like, what are things that are 490 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:55,599 often relied on as ways of growing in character? I 491 00:28:55,599 --> 00:28:59,599 mean one is reading great books. Another is exposure to 492 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,920 excellent people who are going to give you a vision 493 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,799 of what a good life is. Another is praise and blame, right, 494 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,480 Like when you have a child, for example, and you say, like, 495 00:29:09,519 --> 00:29:11,920 you're doing great job, thank you so much for sharing. 496 00:29:12,039 --> 00:29:16,200 That is something that calls them to that standard or 497 00:29:17,079 --> 00:29:20,640 the like the converse, right, so, you were not so 498 00:29:20,799 --> 00:29:21,400 nice to your. 499 00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:22,279 Speaker 2: Sibling, right. 500 00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 3: Another thing is like guilt or shame, like these kind 501 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:29,720 of negative balance emotions that we try to avoid culturally, 502 00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:32,960 but are super valuable in our lives in terms of 503 00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:36,519 calling us, you know, to something different to be more excellent. 504 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,039 And then in the Christian context, yeah, it's like everything 505 00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:45,559 you name, right, So revelation, right, spending time reading scripture, 506 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,160 it's spending time in a community of believers. It's like 507 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:55,559 having that sort of quiet, reflective time, those moments of contrition. 508 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,799 But then it's also like physical practices. And I think 509 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,240 one really great source for reflecting on the nature of 510 00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:08,319 the kinds of physical practices that could benefit a Christian 511 00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:12,839 life would come from the Desert Fathers. So these were 512 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,960 monks who were living in the desert in the medieval 513 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,920 time period, and they had all of these physical practices 514 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,799 and would do things that maybe to us seem like 515 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,000 honestly strange, right, Like they would sometimes they were anchor 516 00:30:28,279 --> 00:30:31,359 and they would wander alone in the desert. Sometimes they 517 00:30:31,359 --> 00:30:34,160 were they would be stylite and they'd stand on these 518 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,559 these poles, right. Sometimes they would do these practices of 519 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,759 temperance where they would like I remember reading that one 520 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,680 monk he would hang like cucumbers in his little scriptorium 521 00:30:47,079 --> 00:30:51,160 uh area, and it was like to try to desensitize 522 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,359 him from he felt that he had an outsized appetite 523 00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:57,400 and wanted to glorify God in that way. And another 524 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:03,519 way was this practice stabilitus loki. And in stabilitus loki, 525 00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:07,400 you would you would do your manual labor. But they 526 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,400 were noticing that they had this thing that they called 527 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:17,200 the noon demon or something like they would become phrenetically 528 00:31:17,759 --> 00:31:21,079 internally busy, and they wanted to practice being able to 529 00:31:21,119 --> 00:31:23,839 stay in place on a task and do that meaningful 530 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,440 work and not resist the demands of love placed on them. 531 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,400 And so all that they were doing in that task 532 00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:34,759 was just remaining in their physical work and having their 533 00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:37,200 attention fully fixed on that practice. 534 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: And I see that. 535 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:43,559 Speaker 3: One as particularly applicable as a distance runner, because sometimes 536 00:31:43,799 --> 00:31:46,160 one of the temptations that I have is to try 537 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,160 to without a vision of what I would do instead, 538 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,079 I just want to stop and do something else. Right, Like, 539 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:58,920 you feel distracted and it's hard to stay there, to 540 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,799 stay where you are and do the work that's set 541 00:32:02,839 --> 00:32:06,839 before you, and instead you want to do literally anything else, 542 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:07,559 and you. 543 00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 2: Have no vision of what you want to do instead. 544 00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:13,559 Speaker 3: And that kind of like stabilitas loki practice that you 545 00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:16,480 get in the context of distance running, where you just 546 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:22,160 remain on task, I think is really really valuable spiritually speaking. 547 00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. I'm reminded of a new word I 548 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,960 learned when I was reading your book, and it was 549 00:32:30,039 --> 00:32:33,640 in transigence. I thought that was really fascinating. Maybe you 550 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,920 could impact that and you make some examples of what 551 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,359 that might be and how common that might be for 552 00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:40,279 people in this sort of sport. 553 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:41,559 Speaker 2: Yeah. 554 00:32:41,839 --> 00:32:44,599 Speaker 3: So in transition, it's just an excess with respect to 555 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,119 remaining in place. And so when you think about perseverance, 556 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,519 it's positioned between a vice of deficiency, which is a resolution, 557 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:58,400 so you can't commit to things, and you are like 558 00:32:58,839 --> 00:33:01,319 a way of you know, the work that you're supposed 559 00:33:01,319 --> 00:33:04,000 to do, but you can't get yourself to commit to it. Right, 560 00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:08,160 this kind of a resolution. But the excess right is 561 00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:14,319 in transigens or bullheadedness or pertinacity, whatever word you want 562 00:33:14,359 --> 00:33:15,359 to use to describe it. 563 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, these are great. The words are so descriptive and 564 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,319 I didn't know that. You know, just to interrupt two 565 00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:26,559 seconds having words for these virtues and vices. That is 566 00:33:26,599 --> 00:33:30,400 like the first step to developing these things, because you're, oh, yeah, 567 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,400 I see that character trait. I didn't realize it. That's 568 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,640 a thing, and it's really helpful. 569 00:33:36,039 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of like as a child when you 570 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,319 acquire a grammar in different disciplines and you can see 571 00:33:42,359 --> 00:33:45,799 the world in new ways that you weren't aware of before. 572 00:33:46,079 --> 00:33:49,359 Like I feel the same thing morally speaking, when I 573 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,039 learn about virtues and vices, like it gives me spectacles 574 00:33:53,039 --> 00:33:56,200 to better see myself than others. But this kind of 575 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,440 intransigence hides in plain sight and distance running because sometimes 576 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,319 we hold on imprudently, We hold on past when we 577 00:34:05,359 --> 00:34:09,960 should and so an example is I just read what 578 00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:13,119 is the is this book Into Thin Air and it's 579 00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:17,239 about the Everest climbers, And so much of what makes 580 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:23,119 those people successful is that they are committed, stubbornly committed, right, 581 00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:27,400 and sometimes it's successful, and then other times it's their undoing. 582 00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:31,000 And so many people lose their lives because they just 583 00:34:31,119 --> 00:34:34,320 push past the point when it ceases to make sense. 584 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,559 And we can do this in distance running by sometimes 585 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,360 holding on too long past injury right, or overstepping kind 586 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,960 of lines in our lives that are not even physical, 587 00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:52,920 like sometimes they are cultural right, so stepping on family 588 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,760 time in order to get a run in or committing 589 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,519 to complete a race, even when doing so means that 590 00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,199 you are treading on other responsibilities in your life, like 591 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,239 your work or your family or friends who need you 592 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,679 or something like that. And so the point is just 593 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,519 that not all finish lines are good ones, right, So 594 00:35:12,599 --> 00:35:15,320 you might make it to the finish line, and also 595 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,840 it could be something that detracts from a good life, 596 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,679 because that's not like a finish line that was suitable. 597 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,360 So perseverance is a good when it's fixed on good 598 00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:29,199 ends and is performed in suitable ways. But we can 599 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,760 definitely experience an excess with respect to that virtue. 600 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was funny because sort of in tandem, if 601 00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:41,280 not prior to reading your book, I also read some 602 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:46,760 other famous runners, like biography and some of their adventures, 603 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,039 and it was like I was seeing everything you were saying, 604 00:35:50,159 --> 00:35:53,280 you know, where the vices and things like that, and 605 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,760 I know, well, I wouldn't say that that person's name, 606 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,760 but one another one person I would say is like 607 00:36:02,039 --> 00:36:04,000 I think a lot of people know about ultra running, 608 00:36:04,679 --> 00:36:07,360 not from people who are actually doing it for the 609 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,800 sport itself, but maybe hearing of it from like David 610 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,800 Goggins or something, and so they associate that with that 611 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:20,239 sort of go all in sort of hardcore insane approach. 612 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,760 And you know, we were talking about certain vices or 613 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,559 what was it, performance enhancing vices and things like that. 614 00:36:26,639 --> 00:36:29,760 Some of those stories I've read there kind of remind 615 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,239 me of that, because it's like, you're really persevering here, 616 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,679 but you're crazy, you know. I don't know how to 617 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,800 put it other than that, you know, yeah. 618 00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 3: I think, well, yeah, so a couple things about that, 619 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,320 Like one, I think because those those kinds of voices 620 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,039 really bother me too, right, But I think that in 621 00:36:48,119 --> 00:36:51,519 some cases it's a correction for the fact that a 622 00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:54,119 lot of the people who are receiving those messages are 623 00:36:54,119 --> 00:36:57,800 more on the irresolution side, and they need to be 624 00:36:58,039 --> 00:36:58,960 you know, pushed in the. 625 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 2: Opposite direction a little bit to persist. 626 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 3: But when I hear things like that, I mean, yeah, 627 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:10,039 like it's it's sort of suffering that is irrespective of 628 00:37:10,599 --> 00:37:13,519 like the kind of suffering that you're going to undergo 629 00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:18,159 and whether the pains that you're experiencing are actually just imprudence. 630 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:24,159 Sometimes it means like pushing past signs in your body 631 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,159 that say you should quit, right, But I mean a 632 00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:30,599 lot of the influencer culture and a lot of fitness 633 00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:35,199 culture rests on these sort of slogans, and you know, 634 00:37:35,559 --> 00:37:39,079 like it fits less neatly on a T shirt if 635 00:37:39,119 --> 00:37:41,760 you say things like never quit except when you definitely 636 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,239 should because you're overstepping the boundaries in your life that 637 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,079 you should respect, and all these like little asterisks and 638 00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:54,760 caveats about when it's actually a good idea to to suffer. 639 00:37:55,079 --> 00:37:57,199 Speaker 2: What are proper limits on that sort of thing? 640 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know how vices and virtues are so often 641 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,000 excesses or deficiencies of something that you know you should have, 642 00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:10,440 you know, And I don't think i've because I don't 643 00:38:10,519 --> 00:38:14,519 think about ethics as a subject and don't study it 644 00:38:14,599 --> 00:38:18,760 too deeply. I'm not my thing like area of expertise 645 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,599 or something. But you know, I was just reminded that 646 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,559 that is so important that a lot of these things 647 00:38:24,599 --> 00:38:27,320 we start out might be good. So there were certain 648 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,159 aspects in your book there that was like convicting in 649 00:38:30,199 --> 00:38:34,599 a way because I was like doing some introspection and thinking, Okay, 650 00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:37,960 what lines do I need to draw to make sure 651 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,440 that this is a healthy thing and not something that 652 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,000 either leads to other people resenting it or me burning 653 00:38:44,039 --> 00:38:46,880 out or things like that. And I think that that's 654 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,639 got to be a struggle for a whole bunch of people, 655 00:38:48,639 --> 00:38:52,519 because when it comes to certain sports, certain personality types 656 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:58,760 seem to gravitate towards them, and then certain vices emerge 657 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,280 that are just so calm into that particular sport or whatever. 658 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I wish there were a very firm line 659 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,760 and you could say this is when you cross over 660 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:15,360 from perseverance to pertinacity, right, But it's so dependent on 661 00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:20,559 your context and how something is fitting within your life. 662 00:39:21,159 --> 00:39:23,719 Like when I speak to young runners, the one thing 663 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,440 I always tell them to do is to have people 664 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,440 speaking into your life who are outside of the sport, 665 00:39:29,599 --> 00:39:32,800 because sometimes I think things that are praised within the 666 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:38,280 sport actually aren't praiseworthy, and you might lack vision within 667 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,360 the sport, right someone saying, oh, you're so dedicated and 668 00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:46,360 you know, great job persevering. But someone who loves you 669 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,679 and wills your good and is outside of the sport 670 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,840 might see that you're crossing a line before you see it. 671 00:39:53,679 --> 00:39:56,480 And so having people you admire both within the sport 672 00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:59,199 but also outside of the sport to give you that 673 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,159 kind of competing vision is really valuable. And I always 674 00:40:03,159 --> 00:40:06,880 ask my husband that I'm like, should I I'm intending 675 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,159 to do the second run? Like is that a good idea? 676 00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:11,719 Is there something else I should be doing right now? 677 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,760 Just to keep the dialogue open, because sometimes I can 678 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,360 even see that I've crossed the line where I only 679 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,159 see it in retrospect. And having someone who can speak 680 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,159 clearly into your life and you know that they love you, like, 681 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,000 that's a really valuable thing to have. 682 00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:29,760 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could speak to what your thoughts 683 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,280 are on competitiveness. And I'm not a big like Strava 684 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,880 person or something like that, but I have a little 685 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,639 garment groups and things, and I feel like I'm overly competitive. 686 00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:45,360 And although I don't go around shouting hey I win 687 00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:49,159 and stuff like that, I still I'm like, do I 688 00:40:49,199 --> 00:40:52,960 need to disconnect from that? Because I just as soon 689 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,440 as I'm not in first place or something, I'm like, 690 00:40:55,679 --> 00:40:58,079 I have to change that. And I just don't know 691 00:40:58,119 --> 00:41:01,119 if that's advice or if just is I don't know 692 00:41:01,159 --> 00:41:03,320 how to tell if this is bad or not. 693 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, it's such a good question. And I 694 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,800 think our cultural imagination for what competition is is so 695 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,280 entangled in envy, right, this kind of vice of unhappy 696 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,760 self assertion, that we have a limited imagination for what 697 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,159 it might look like in good ways. Right. And I 698 00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:26,199 always like to tell people, like, striving is not a problem, right, 699 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,440 Competing is just driving together. 700 00:41:29,199 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 2: Right. And if a virtue, it virtually means excellence. 701 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: Right. 702 00:41:33,039 --> 00:41:35,519 Speaker 3: Trying to become more excellence is going to involve a 703 00:41:35,519 --> 00:41:39,239 fair amount of striving, right. And how do we often 704 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,239 get a vision of what excellence is through other people? 705 00:41:43,679 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 2: Right? 706 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,639 Speaker 3: So striving with other people can be super valuable. Even 707 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,719 certain negative emotions that we experience in the context of 708 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:56,480 other people's excellence can be really fruitful in action guiding. 709 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 2: And one example is this kind of emula. 710 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,559 Speaker 3: So you experience this sort of negative feeling toward yourself 711 00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:08,000 when you realize that you lack some good thing, coupled 712 00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:12,079 with this kind of positive feeling toward that good thing. 713 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,480 And so it's this mixed balanced emotion where you feel like, oh, 714 00:42:16,639 --> 00:42:20,239 I like have this lack and I see this beautiful 715 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,039 thing that I want. And emulation is a kind of 716 00:42:23,159 --> 00:42:26,280 leveling up emotion. And we see that in scripture too. 717 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,039 It's like outdo one another in good deeds. Right, It's 718 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:32,840 this kind of raising up, like seeing the good in 719 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,679 the other and then calling yourself to a higher standard. 720 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,840 We see it in like virtue friendships too. Another alternative 721 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:45,400 is admiration, right, So having this sort of appreciative perception 722 00:42:45,639 --> 00:42:48,239 of the good in another person. And so there are 723 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:53,000 these alternative emotions for experiencing the excellence of another person 724 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,239 that are don't. 725 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 2: Have to be envious, right, right. 726 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,519 Speaker 3: And so like experiencing gratitude for the other person or 727 00:43:00,559 --> 00:43:01,199 something like that. 728 00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:03,719 Speaker 2: But yeah, like I. 729 00:43:03,079 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 3: Sometimes when I'm talking to young teams or something like that, 730 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,199 they assume that in occupying competition in a virtuous way, 731 00:43:12,679 --> 00:43:15,920 that means they need to be kind of mousey toward 732 00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:20,079 competition or or not say that they're striving for something 733 00:43:20,599 --> 00:43:24,239 or or kind of like hide those things away, and 734 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,920 that there's no winsome way of striving. And I don't 735 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,440 think that's true at all. Like, I think there's this 736 00:43:30,519 --> 00:43:34,840 virtue called magnanimity that Aquinas talks about, and it's this 737 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,639 kind of well ordered striving. You consider yourself worthy of 738 00:43:38,679 --> 00:43:42,119 great things that you are indeed worthy of, and yet 739 00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:45,840 it's humble enough to recognize that you're not self caused, 740 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,480 that a lot of good in you is gifted and 741 00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:52,079 you rely on other people, and so if you can 742 00:43:52,119 --> 00:43:57,159 strike that balance, then that is that's the goal. It's 743 00:43:57,199 --> 00:43:59,360 not like a failure to strive at all. It is 744 00:44:00,199 --> 00:44:03,079 it is like trying to be more excellent and trying 745 00:44:03,119 --> 00:44:06,000 to get there and relying on other people. So I 746 00:44:06,039 --> 00:44:10,719 don't know, like personally, am I there, Like I've you know, 747 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,280 dealt with envy and my own racing a lot, Like 748 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,679 I think that's just but being honest about the category 749 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,960 and trying to trying to occupy the other vision and 750 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:28,199 trying to encourage younger athletes to like practice being able 751 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,519 to celebrate the excellence of other people, because there's a 752 00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:35,039 kind of undoing of the competition itself when you can't 753 00:44:35,039 --> 00:44:39,039 celebrate other people. And I honestly think of it as 754 00:44:39,079 --> 00:44:42,719 being like a kind of theft, because if you can 755 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,239 only celebrate when you win, but then you're going to 756 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,920 explain away the successes of other people or not let 757 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,000 them have their moment, then like you're taking something away 758 00:44:54,039 --> 00:44:56,800 from someone else. And I don't think that's a good 759 00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:58,000 way of occupying sport. 760 00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:03,159 Speaker 1: Thinking about our listeners and maybe if they're sticking with 761 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,800 us and maybe there happened to be a non athlete, 762 00:45:06,199 --> 00:45:08,760 how do you think they can begin to think about 763 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,400 character development for even though they might not be into 764 00:45:12,679 --> 00:45:14,840 sports or athletics or things like that. 765 00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question, honestly. Like I talk to 766 00:45:18,559 --> 00:45:21,119 my students a lot about these sorts of things. 767 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,639 Speaker 2: Like sometimes they assume that. 768 00:45:23,599 --> 00:45:27,079 Speaker 3: Their character is a given. So for example, they have 769 00:45:27,159 --> 00:45:30,239 a hard time reading, for example, and they just say, 770 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,679 I'd have a short intention span. It's just who I am, right, 771 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,039 And the one thing that I want to impress upon 772 00:45:36,079 --> 00:45:39,440 them is just that they do have agency with respect 773 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,800 to their character. They can improve in a number of 774 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,960 these respects. But it's not something that's going to happen 775 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,239 by accident, right. It has to have this kind of 776 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:54,079 intentional character of improvement, and sports gives us a really 777 00:45:54,119 --> 00:45:55,079 good model for it. 778 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,280 Speaker 2: But like music does as well, right, Like. 779 00:45:58,519 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 3: You can't expect on day one to be able to 780 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,519 play some sort of beautiful concerto. 781 00:46:04,079 --> 00:46:08,360 Speaker 2: So just have this kind of long view of where 782 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:08,880 they want. 783 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,159 Speaker 3: To go, surround themselves by people that they look up 784 00:46:13,199 --> 00:46:16,320 to and that can remind them of a sort of 785 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,920 vision of what they'd like to be, but then taking 786 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,639 that first step of improvement and continue to work toward 787 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,119 the kind of character that they'd like to have. 788 00:46:27,519 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: Now, I do want to point our listeners to your book, 789 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,920 and again that one is called The Examined Run Why 790 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,719 good people make Better Runners. But I wonder what particular 791 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,559 thinkers Sabrina have influenced you a lot or said hey, 792 00:46:41,639 --> 00:46:44,159 here's a handful of books that here's something that should 793 00:46:44,159 --> 00:46:46,280 be on your shelf. This has been influential to me. 794 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:51,079 Speaker 3: So I always turned people to the Confessions Augustine's Confessions 795 00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:55,079 as like my greatest recommendation from the history of philosophy. 796 00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:00,320 Just it's kind of like a reflective practice in health 797 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,199 and his own sin and is drawing closer to God. 798 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,239 Like that's going to be the number one recommendation always. 799 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,679 But in terms of contemporary philosophers, I mean, you named 800 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,239 one of them. So Christian Miller, his Character Gap is 801 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,119 a great, great book. I also he's in the process 802 00:47:18,159 --> 00:47:21,159 of writing a book on honesty right now that's intended 803 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,840 for public audience, and that's going to be so good. 804 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: I know, it's book of his Wasn't that something like 805 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,239 in tandem with the Templeton Foundation. 806 00:47:32,599 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Templeton funded funded a lot. 807 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,760 Speaker 3: Of Yeah, he had a massive character grant and now 808 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,480 he has a massive honesty one. 809 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:45,559 Speaker 2: So yeah. 810 00:47:45,639 --> 00:47:50,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's already written like an academic monograph on honesty, 811 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,719 but he is coming out with a public, public facing 812 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,760 one now. So that and then there's a great book 813 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:02,039 by Nathan King called an Excellent Mind, and that's on 814 00:48:02,119 --> 00:48:05,840 intellectual virtues, and that one is really accessible as well, 815 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:07,639 and I highly recommend it. 816 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 1: Cool. Well, that's great now if people want to find 817 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,199 your work, I mentioned earlier your website, Sabrinolittle dot com. 818 00:48:15,679 --> 00:48:19,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, I do a lot of public writing on ironfar 819 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,639 dot com. So there's a column there called the Examined 820 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,760 Run and I put out pieces monthly there. And then 821 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,480 I also write for Psychology Today in a blog called 822 00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:34,320 Considerations of Character, and I'm on a number of social 823 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,599 media channels mostly to share those those articles as they 824 00:48:37,639 --> 00:48:38,000 come out. 825 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,920 Speaker 1: Huh. Well, Sabrina, it's just been a great pleasure to 826 00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:44,320 have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for 827 00:48:44,679 --> 00:48:47,920 a great book, and I'm very much inspired by it. 828 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,440 It's already led me to other books and things, and 829 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,679 I'm sure that I'm going to continue looking at this subject. 830 00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,480 So thanks so much for your time today. 831 00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,159 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me and that means a lot. 832 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: Thank you for that feedback, Thanks for listening to the podcast. 833 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:04,679 If you have a question you'd like us to address, 834 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,199 or just a message for us feedback good or bad, 835 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,559 you can either email us at podcast at apologetics three 836 00:49:10,639 --> 00:49:13,719 fifteen dot com or leave a voice message for us 837 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:18,000 using speak Pipe. Just go to speakpipe dot com slash 838 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,679 apologetics three fifteen to leave us a message. And remember, 839 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,320 if you include a ghostbuster's quote in your question, we 840 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,159 guarantee that we'll read it on the podcast. We also 841 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,800 ensure up to fifty percent better quality answers. Also, if 842 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,000 you've enjoyed today's podcast, please leave a review in iTunes 843 00:49:34,079 --> 00:49:37,199 or the podcast platform your choice, and please share this 844 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,000 episode with a friend if you found it useful. Remember 845 00:49:40,039 --> 00:49:43,320 you can find lots of Apologetics resources at apologeticspree fifteen 846 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,079 dot com, along with show notes for today's episode. Find 847 00:49:47,159 --> 00:49:51,199 Chad's apologetic stuff over at truth bomb apologetics. That's truthbomb 848 00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,440 dot blogspot dot com. This has been Brian Auten and 849 00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:57,639 Chad Gross for the Apologetics three fifteen podcast, and thanks 850 00:49:57,639 --> 00:50:02,960 for listening.