Speaker 1: Welcome Alice, thank you for joining spaces and I look
forward to this discussion. And perhaps we could start by outlining,
if you could outline what a f d's platform is,
what are the main things you're aiming for, Where does
Germany need change, and just to educate people who have
never heard of a f D or IFD for German
and a lot of people, especially in America, never heard of.
Speaker 2: A f D, so perhaps this would be very helpful.
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you very much Eland for having me and
to give us opportunity to to openly speak about different matters.
Let me just can you hear me?
Speaker 2: I can?
Speaker 3: Yes, perfect, perfect? To start with who we are the
a f D is the alternative for Germany. It isn't
a relatively new party founded eleven years ago during the
course of the euro problems. So unfortunately I have to
start when I shed some light on our party with
the quite negative circumstances in Germany. Our country is a
great country with highly motivated people, but our country has
been governed not in a proper way. Within the last
twenty twenty five years. We had the Angula Medical administration
for sixteen years and then the so called traffic light
coalision that imploded last year. Now we're heading elections. In
my point of view, Angela Merkele, the first Green Chancellor,
she ruined basically our country. She enforced without asking the people,
She enforced to open our borders for illegal immigration in
twenty fifteen. She ragged and destroyed our backbone in terms
of obnoxious energy policy. For the foreign listeners here in
this audience, Germany is the only industrial country, the only
industrial country that unplugged the nuclear power plan. So the
aim of Angela Merkele.
Speaker 1: Was to.
Speaker 3: Enforce just faller and wind energy. And you don't need
to be very smart to encounter that. You cannot run
an industrial country was just wind and solar because you
don't have any energy and electricity when the sun doesn't
shine and when the wind doesn't blow. And this is
a major problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of solar energy,
but clearly if somebody, if a country is at a
very high latitude, then the amount of solar power in
the winter is going to be substantially reduced. And of
course there's a significant difference in the day night cycle
of energy usage, so a lot of a lot of
power can be done with solar and with the large
scale grid energy batteries, but it must be supplemented with
other forms of power because there's not a lot of
sunshine in the middle of point in Germany. So the
solution obviously must be a multifaceted solution where there's certainly renewables,
but also that that there does need to be some
form of some amount of fossil fuel energy and and
and especially in nuclear I think nuclears are very much underrated.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 1: I think it was a tragic for Dominue to shut
down the nuclear power plants. In fact, they're they're very
well designed, and I think that the right move is
in fact to increase the amount of nuclear power substantially
in Germany.
Speaker 2: This would be this would be great and absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, so that was the reason why I wanted
to shed some light on the current situation, so in
order to form my opinion what our parties stand for,
because this is exactly what you said, we stand for
an energy, energy supply, high diversification. We cannot run a
industrial country like Germany with a strong still strong manufacturing base.
To tell you the truth, our manufacturing production it peaked
in twenty eighteen and it plummeted since then due to
high energy costs, and you cannot run a country like that.
So therefore we say, look, we need to be technology open,
and we need to reinforce again nuclear power plants because
nuclear energy supply is carbon free, right, so therefore we
would also, yeah, we would also reduce our carbon footprint,
which is obnoxiously very very high. And this is the
entire irony about it. So our governments like the Angela
Meagle government and the so called ridiculous traffic Light Coalition,
they enforce a green policy upon our country that doesn't work.
And yeah, and we would like to go back to
technology openess here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: I mean, my recommendation, and I've said this publicly before,
is that Germany should not merely reopen the nuclear power plants,
but substantially increase the power generation in the same space,
meaning without increasing the size of the nuclear power plant
in any meaningful way, without increasing the amount of land
area that it uses, you can dramatically increase the power
output of a nuclear power station because the actual core
part of the power station is extremely tiny. People don't
quite realize just how small the center core of a
nuclear power plant is it's like amazingly tiny, and so
you can actually in the same land area, no increased
land area dramatically increase the amount of nuclear power that
any given nuclear power station is produce. Sing do you
need a water source for for that to run the
steam turbines? But but but really far more power output
is possible than than people realize. And I think that
the sensible solution is, uh, you know, renewables, but with
with a lot of nuclear and then you know, to
supplement where that there's there has to be some amount
of hydrocarbon power generation to supplement where Yeah, just it
just needs to be sensible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, But do you know what, just just just
let me do just like one more example, because like
like like wind turbines, wind energy in comparison to nuclear
power supply is highly inefficient also in terms of land use.
So for instance, I give one example just to shed
some light on it. If you were to replace one
nuclear power plant, let's say, like one like m Slant
nuclear power plant here in Germany with an annual electricity
production of ten billion kilovard per hour with modern wind
turbines with a production of just eight million kilovart per
hour per year. You would need one thousand, two hundred
fifty wind turbines just to just to replace this one
power plant and with a rotor diameter of seventeen meters
and the minimum distance from large wind farms, you end
up around with like one hundred square kilometers for example,
this corresponds to half of the city major city of Stuttguart. Right,
So this this entire thing, and just to just to
just to stress the again, you don't need to be
very smart just to do your calculation.
Speaker 1: But our our energy, that's the crazy thing. The crazy
thing is is like like a bunch of these these
these energy questions you do not need to be like
like a world leading physicist. Is very basic math, like
high school less than high school level math, i'd say
middle school math. Even it's it's very straightforward, not not complicated.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely. And then during during the crisis, like during
the war sorry, yeah, so during the War of Ukraine,
so our our our guest supply was just destroyed and
that actually shed some light on our on our severe
dependence on Russian gas. And do you know what, what's
a gu and decided in this crisis when the energy
price is skyrocked. After we were cut off of of
of of cheap energy supply from Russia. They switched off
the last nuclear power plant to even more create a
shortage of energy. So either you must be very stupid
or you just hate your own country, isn't it.
Speaker 1: I think it's mostly the very stupid category. At least,
I like things very suitable. I mean, there's there's all
saying that, like once you never ascribe to malice that
which can easily be explained by incompetence.
Speaker 3: Yes, you're perfectly right now.
Speaker 1: Yes, I actually when I saw that Germany was turning
off the pope plants after being cut off from gas
supplies from Russia, I thought, this.
Speaker 2: Is the craziest. This is one of the craziest things.
Speaker 1: I've ever seen, just just when Germany most needs electricity
during shutting down one of.
Speaker 2: The best sources of electricity, which is nuclear power.
Speaker 3: Crazy and completely carmon free.
Speaker 2: Crazy crazy.
Speaker 3: It's crazy.
Speaker 1: So so I guess to summarize the I mean, the
two main things that a FD is aiming for in
terms of change is a sensible energy policy and sensible
immigration policy.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly so, but actually even more so, we would
like so if I if if I may continue a
little bit now it's a it's a elan, it's a
complete news situation for me that that I just can
have a normal conversation and I'm not interrupted on negative
framed how that has been in the media the case
in the last ten years, which is completely ridiculous. So
what we what we also stand for since we are
a conservative libertarian party, so at least we see ourselves
like this, but we are extremely negatively framed as a
so called extremist party by the mainstream media. So we
just say, look, we need to reduce bureaucracy. We need
to free our our firms, our companies, the individuals of
the sub narches bureaucratic conditions here. Do you know, like
how long it takes how many days it takes to
get a business permit in Germany?
Speaker 1: Just as it turns out I do, because we both, yeah,
a big plan.
Speaker 2: A gigantic class factory, you know, just near Berlin.
Speaker 1: So we had many, many challenges, I mean, this is
to be clear, like we actually had a lot of support,
a lot of local support, a lot of local support
from from from the local government, from the national government.
Speaker 2: And despite all that support.
Speaker 1: Just the sheer number of rules that you're, you know,
the people in the government are required to follow is
completely crazy.
Speaker 2: And we had to I think it was twenty.
Speaker 1: Five thousand pages, was our permit, and it had to
be and it had to be all printed on paper. Yes,
I think maybe more than that in the end, twenty
five thousand, and then there has to be many many
copies made. So it literally was a truck of paper
because we're like, surely we can make this electronic, you know,
shouldn't isn't that better for everyone? You need to have
the No, it has to be paper. I'm like, this
is crazy. This is only a few years ago. It's
not the distant past. I mean, it's like we're you know,
we're well into that, we're, you know, a quarter of
the way through the twenty first century. It's like, guys,
let's just forty five thousand actual printed pages. And then
I believe every page needed to be stamped with a
physical stamp. I mean, honestly, it's it's going to really
tire somebody out to do so much stamping.
Speaker 2: You know, they're going to get some sort of repetitive
stress injury.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're gonna get a repetitive stress injury from having
to stamp so many people stand up to the hospital
or something. I mean, that's that's too much. So I'm
not trying to blame the sort of individuals who are
doing this time because they are just following the rules.
So we have to change the rules, and it needs
to be I think in my view for you know,
old countries, but especially countries that have enjoyed prosperity for
a long time, it's extremely important to have what I
call sort of garbage collection of rules, which is to
re examine the rules and regulations and make sure that
they are clearly a net good and if there's any
doubt about the being that good, we should eliminate them
because otherwise we get to this point where everything is
illegal and so it's just absolutely.
Speaker 3: Crazy, absolutely absolutely And it's not only about bureaucracy. It's
also about taxes. Germany has the highest taxes of all
OCD countries. So the normal German employee, he works half
of more than half of a year for the state.
You have to imagine that like with Texes plus social Security,
so more than half of the year you work for
this dysfunctioning state. Because like the state does not provide
the vital, the vital provisions for the people here, so
he doesn't provide for security, so we have like like
skyrocketing criminal rights here. He doesn't care about education, so
we have this same insane wokish leftish socialist agenda in
our educational system. So the young people they don't learn
anything in school, in university, et cetera. So they just
learn about gender study and they yeah, and no, really.
Speaker 1: Like the impression that Germany had had a pretty good
education system that that was quite rigorous with you know,
the gymnasium and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: At least they used to at one point.
Speaker 1: So but it sounds like this says, I don't know,
the work envirus has infected Germany quite badly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so you have the the international standard of
PISA testing, right, So the PISA survey, so Germany, like
a couple of years ago was okay, scored okay, the
score okay, but now so we so we just plummeted
because because the survey showed that young people are not
able to properly do maths or speak or write German
and in some like in some states here in Germany,
you have to imagine they just abolished the writing grades
in terms to get the language grade right, so you
don't need to write German properly anymore. Because our entire
educational system has been deteriorating. And that is also the reason,
for instance, why young people they vote for for US now,
because they want to have a proper education and they
want to have back a proper educational system that that
that provides the young people with with the capabilities, and
that is also the reason why I so my personal
opinion is that we have to go back to a
merit based system, right, So we need to go back
to a merit based incentive system and go away from
all this socialist gender things being in our educational system.
The families and the parents they have the responsibility of
their children, and the schools and the university they have
the responsibility to give good education and that and not
all this vote socialist nonsensical gender stuff.
Speaker 1: Sure, no, absolutely, I mean, the whole point of going
to school is to learn useful skills that help you
in life, help you be productive and understand the world.
And otherwise it's not a school, it's it's a it's
just a propaganda institution.
Speaker 2: True.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so okay, well, I mean that makes makes a
lot of sense, so let's see.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so maybe maybe I can just go on because
I was I was just giving example of the educational
system where the state fails because because because our state,
the government collected the last year a record high of
income text. So they collected like around like above one
one trillion right of euros, so it is a record
high tex But the state they cannot they cannot handle
the expayer's money. So what do they do? So they
just throw the money out of the window. For immigration
in our social system for instance, So since twenty fifteen,
just to give you some numbers and also the audience
to have to have an idea what's going on here
in Germany, so we had an influx of almost seven
million people. Seven million people, but these are the officially counted.
Speaker 2: So a million people. Wow, okay, so we have a.
Speaker 3: Million people of influx since twenty fifteen, officially counted. And
then because the people they just just another funny numbers.
Our state allows people to throw away they passports before
they cross our borders that are protected and controlled. So
fifty seven almost sixty percent of the people coming into
our country through open border, they throw away their papers.
Why do they do that because once entered our country,
our funny country, with this funny immigration policy, they cannot
be deported anymore. So that's the reason why. So our state,
our government, like the Anguelamerical government and the last one,
they proclaimed a policy that everyone can choose to cross
our border to immigrate into our social security system and
cannot be deported afterwards because they threw away their passports.
I mean, like, how insane is that?
Speaker 1: Well, it is very insane, but that's exactly what's happened
in the US. Yeah, I mean clearly there's there's you know,
there's a sort of i don't know, a sort of
far left agenda that's being pushed throughout Western civilization any
any place they can go, because the exactly exact same
thing was done in the US where and now they
are sort of calling people illegal immigrants, they call them undocumented.
And the reason they're undocumented is because they threw away
their passport, just like you're talking about. In fact, if
on the on the Mexican side of the border in
the US, there's a giant pile of discarded passports and
driver's licenses like a huge pile, because it's actually worse
to come in with a passport than to come in
with nothing. And then, just like in Germany, the the
Democrat government then gives massive amounts of money and support
to what they call undocumented But but then, but if
they're undocumented, we actually.
Speaker 2: Have no idea.
Speaker 1: If they are a murderer, rapist, we have no idea
because they are no documents, so we can't actually tell.
And so as a result, there's been has been a
massive influx of criminals into the US because and frankly,
I mean, I'm wondering what's taking criminals so long to
come here? I mean, this is a talk. I mean,
America is a target rich environment. It's it's it's you know,
the can in America. It's so easy to steal things
in these wealthy neighborhoods. It's like the only thing that
is going to slow down how much you can steal
is is if you're back hurts from carrying out all
the goods. You know, it's like because you're just like
you're not a rubber You're just a moving company. So uh,
you know, like it seems like all the world's criminals
just come to America on that basis because it's such
an it's much easier to be a career criminal in
America than it is in other countries where there's not that.
Speaker 2: Much to steal.
Speaker 1: So, you know, so we've seen a massive increasing crime
in the US.
Speaker 3: Yeah, may I, may I ask a question. So I
read I read that for instance, in California, by the way,
I'm very sorry what's happening there. It's terrible, terrible, and yeah,
it's terrible. But in the case of California that they
just lifted the prosecution of theft because you have so
many cases of theft, is it true?
Speaker 1: Yes, The de factor situation in California is that theft
is almost never prosecuted. It's maybe one or two, maybe
one percent of the time is theft prosecuted. And and
even when it is prosecuted, that the criminals are let
out on bail immediately. So basically theft is legal in California.
It's crazy, it's crazy. Yeah. Now, there was recently a
referendum in California to to make to make a crime,
to make stealing illegal again, which was and actually that
was a very popular and it passed so because it
was actually literally legal to steal anything under one thousand dollars,
which means people could just walk into a store at
one thousand dollars at a time and take out anything
they want and if the if the storekeeper stopped them,
the storekeeper would be arrested. So this is literally like
the joker in Batman. It's like the criminals you know,
are in charge and the honor citizens are arrested.
Speaker 2: It's just completely insane. Now. Like I said, the people
in California.
Speaker 1: Did vote overwhelmingly to make theft illegal again, but astonishingly,
the governor of California, Governor Newsom, he was against the
making theft illegal, which is doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, but what what they're going to do is even
though it is technically illegal again, they the sort of
far left, will refuse to enforce it. So because because
you really need two things for something to work.
Speaker 4: For laws to work, you need you need both the
law and you need enforcement of the law. And if
you don't have if you so, I mean, this is
something that George Soros really figured out. I mean, he's
he's sort of brilliant, brilliant guy, but honestly very you know,
anti human. In my opinion is that you don't actually.
Speaker 1: Need to change the law, you just need to stop
enforcement of the law, and and and that that does
that does the trick. So so, but I think this
there is somewhat of a reawakening in the US. And
I think even in California people are tired of the
tired of this, and they won't change. And I think
that's that's really if you say, like what people are wondering,
like why did.
Speaker 2: Why why did Donald Trump win?
Speaker 1: And it's and and it wasn't just a small victory
in the U S elections this year. Uh, you know,
President Trump won uh the electoral college. He also won
the popular vote majority of the of the people. And
that the House is Republican and the Senate is a Republican.
What this says is the American people are demanding change.
They're being very clear. And my recommendation too for the
people in Germany is to do the same. If you
if you're unhappy with the situation, you must vote for change.
And that is why I'm really strongly recommending that people
vote for a f D. That's my that's my strong recommendation.
And I think this is simply the sense of Ale
move and I think Alice Beetle is a very very
reasonable person and hopefully people can tell just from this
conversation like nothing outrageous is being proposed, just common sense.
So in fact, as I've said publicly, I think only
AfD can save Germany, and I just want to be
very clear about that. Only a FD can save Germany,
end of story. And people really need to get behind
a FD and otherwise things are going to get very
very much worse in Germany.
Speaker 3: Yes, because because you rightly said there is a difference
of making a law and then enforcing it. So now
we have the situation in Germany where you have on
the one hand, you have the a f D and
on the other hand what's so called the Uni parties, right,
the Uni Party consisting of all the others because because
they stick together and no matter what they say, they're
not able to implement to enforce the promises they're doing
in every election, especially the Anguela Meracle party. Do you
know that the chances are candidates. So I saw my
running mate of the christ Democratic Party that it's wrongly labeled,
for instance by the economists as a center right party.
So in my opinion, it's a Leftish Green Party. But anyway,
Angel America was the first Green chancellor we had here.
So what he did is that he, by the way,
just talking about interference, so I just look it up here.
He called your interests, so your interest in German politics
pushy and presumptuous and yeah, yeah, exactly, and Bill Gates,
so that it was not a problem when Bill Gates
actually tried to sell his m aaron a vaccination and
not mentioning all the huge side effects on people's health,
and no one takes responsibility about and the entire bluff
and scam of wearing a mask, right, So it's unbelievable.
And also that candidate was the christ Democrats like Fridrich Meertz,
he warned the world about the consequences of voting for
Donald Trump in October last year, so so so far
for like foreign interferences, right, So it's unbelievable. It's really unbelievable.
Like how Donald Trump was treated by German media and
German politicians during his election campaign was unbelievable. And I
mentioned that before in a Bloomberg interview. It created for me,
it created physical pain to see that how he was
disparaged like and his entire family. So yeah, so I
feel very sorry for these people, just like, yeah, saying
negative things. And now while we talk, one hundred and
fifty bureaucrats of the European Union are watching us our
conversation to enforce this ridiculous Digital Services Act that is nothing,
nothing else than a censorship on free speech. But free speech, right,
and you said it. Free speech is a precondition of
democracy if you are not able to form a proper
opinion and exchange opinions and ideas, and a democracy should
be a competition of the best ideas right compromises.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Without freedom of speech, people are obviously not able to
say what they want to say, and then they cannot
make an informed vote. So if people are fed propaganda
and have no access to what's really going on, then
they can make an informed vote, and then that you
don't have a real democracy. So that's why I say,
you know, free speech is the bedrock of democracy. There
must be free speech in order for people to make
an informed vote.
Speaker 2: So that's essential.
Speaker 1: And you can sort of it's actually quite easy to
tell who the bad guys are. It's like, who wants
to shut down free freedom of speech? They are the
bad guys. It's very clear.
Speaker 3: Yes, And do you know what what what adult Hitler did?
The first thing he switched off free speech. Yes, so
he controlled the media, and without that he would have
never been successful. Yes, exactly, never been successful.
Speaker 1: Yes, what you do, yeah, no, exactly, it's that that
was one of one of the first things he did
was was to control the media and uh and imposed
extreme censorship and uh and really what he was trying
to do is shut down any pro semitic uh media,
anything prosmatic or any defense of Jewish people was shut down.
That's that's so, that's that's so we have, like you know,
very few. You know, for those who who who want censorship,
they should I think they should be careful what they
what they asked for, because if once you institute censorship,
it's only a matter of time before that censorship is
turned on you and eventually they will censor you. And
that's the that's the danger because people love to censor
things they don't agree with, but they don't realize that
one day that censorship is going to be turned on out.
So absolutely, yeah, So I mean I mean you mentioned
of course, uh uh, you know, Hitler and whatnot. Now
this a lot of the media wants to portray a
FD as far right, as somehow associated with Nazism or
something like that. Perhaps you could address that that concern,
because you know, people when they have sort of right
wing in Germany, they you know, naturally have a bit
of a negative reaction.
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm, yes, thank you, thank you for that question.
First of all, I would like to since I'm an economist,
I would like to shed some light on the idea
when we talk about Hitler, on the idea of the
national Socialists back then during the Third Night, the national Socialist,
as the word says, there were socialists.
Speaker 2: Yeah, nationalized industry. Is that crazy?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 3: Absolute. He was a communist and he considered himself as
a socialist. So what they did they they they yeah,
they is a state funded than the private companies. And
then they asked for for Texas huge taxes. And then
also wait a second into us in the word now, yeah,
nationalize the entire industry. Yeah you said that before and
and and the biggest success, the biggest success after that
terrible era in our history, was to label Adolf Hitler
as right and conservative. He was exactly the opposite. He
wasn't a conservative, he wasn't a libertarian. He was a
communist socialist guy. So full stop, no more comment on that.
And we are exactly the opposite. We are a libertarian
conservative party. And see look at this during like now
like during the discussion of this terrible Hamas attack on Israel.
So only the Leftish Palestinians they criticize the policies here.
So you have a deeply vested anti Semitism within the
Leftish movement. And it was always that case why and
out of Hitler he also played with that. He played
with the envy of people. Jewish people have been highly educated,
very cultivated, and they were successful. There were wealthy people
back in Germany then, and then he enforced the envy
of the popular relation against these people, and it was
a socialist measure taken against them. Look at Stalin, look
at the Soviet Union under Stalin, the very same thing.
So he was nothing else and an anti Semitic socialist.
And we are exactly the opposite. We are a libertarian
conservative party. We are wrongly framed the entire time, and
we would like to free the people of the state.
I want to have independently thinking people self confident people.
I would like to have a state that is minimized,
minimized to his functions and letting the people having their
freedom of speech, freedom of wealth. Also like generating wealth.
With these obnoxiously high taxes the people, the state erodes
the backbone of wealth, right, so the people are not
able to accumulate wealth that make them independent from the state.
So I would like to have independently thinking, well educated
people who have the freedom to form their own opinion.
I want to have strong leaders in Germany. I don't
want to have stupid week leaders as we had in
the last couple of years, because these people cannot think
straightly and they're a big danger. Look at the war
in Ukraine now. They're a big danger to our national
security and actually to the entire European security. This is
also my hope in Donald Trump and in you in
your administration, that you end that terrible war, this worthless
versus dying of young people every day, like as fast
as you can, because the Europeans they cannot. They're actually
given up on everything, like on a good military, on
a good negotiator, negotiation power that completely depend on the US.
In the sense of oh, the USA need to do
the entire job. We don't need to do anything. We
just escalate the entire conflict against Russia. It's very dangerous
what's going on here, and only you can you can
you can basically stop it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think President Trump is is gonna,
you know, it's going to solve that that conflict, I
think very quickly. As you point out, it's now been
in somewhat of a stalemate for a few years. And
all that's happened over the past few years is hundreds
of thousands of people dying but for no gains. And
the longer this conflict goes on, the more Ukraine weekends
relative to Russia. I mean, Ukraine is a much smaller country.
It simply cannot afford the lasses relative to Russia Russia has.
Speaker 2: It's just, you know, it's this.
Speaker 1: This is the longer the strikes one, the worst it
is for Ukraine. And then you've got all these poor,
you know, men dying for nothing. Why so I hope
this can be this terrible conflict can be resolved quickly,
and I think it will be under President Trump.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it will be great, actually, because this is our
note really like that the people here like many people
are anxious, and they're anxious for a very good reason,
I think, because this conflict, conflict has the potential to
escalate big time towards a nuclear exchange. And here the
European governments they have no measure, They have no strategy,
they have no red line, no storyline of their foreign
and security policy towards Russia, towards Ukraine. They have no
strategy to end that. And they don't have the military power, right,
so they underspand the budget to NATO for actually for decades,
like for for a very long time, like the average
for instance of Germany, because the share of GDP is
supposed to be two percent, so Germany on average, I
think it's just like slightly above one percent. So Germany
didn't contribute. But Germany is also not prudent of the
defendants of our own country. So this is the second thing.
So we are we are, we are completely dependent on
the US. But I think, and I've listened to this
very interesting speech of JD. Vans. He said he doesn't
want to he doesn't want to have client states, right, yeah,
so he wants to have independent states who who that
also form their own independent opinion on things. Right. So
you you you, for instance, in your companies, you don't
want to be surrounded by yes people and by mediocre people, right,
So me neither. I try to require Yeah, so I
try to also, I try to to to to have
the best people in my team. Uh. And these best
people they have the task to criticize me every day.
And I don't want to have yes sayers, right because
you cannot learn, so you have no correction. Yes, yes,
that's yes, yes people. No, but it's so but it's
so important yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes, so yeah, no absolutely.
Speaker 1: I mean, for say, my companies like SpaceX and Tesla,
if you know, if if if we are constantly looking
for critical feedback, because if we make a mistake, then
the rockets blow up and the cars don't work.
Speaker 2: So uh, you know, physics is very unforgiving.
Speaker 1: You know, there's you know, I say, like, really, physics
is the law and everything else is a recommendation, because
I've seen people break every kind of law, but I
haven't seen them break physics. And so if you don't
get the design of the rocket and the opposite operation
of the rocket exactly right, and.
Speaker 2: If even one thing is wrong, the rocket explodes. So
you know, that's what.
Speaker 1: I'm a strong believer in seeking critical feedback, and in fact,
I think critical feedback should be viewed as a gift.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, yes, yes, so well no, no, but but
just just just to continue on that topic.
Speaker 3: So if you don't have that feedback loop, so your
your rocket may explode. Right. But here in this critical
phase of this terrible war in the Ukraine, Ah, many
people may die due to the stupid policies that make
people have diet.
Speaker 1: Yeah indeed, yeah, so well, the story I touched on
some some maybe potential what people may view as hot
button issues like what are what are your views on Israel?
Speaker 3: Oh? Very complicated the more really, like the more the
more I read about the Middle East and the situation
in Israel, the more complicated it gets. And to be honest,
I wanted to ask you about a potential solution because
to be honest, like in my humble opinion, I don't
see as a solution. So maybe maybe in Israel have
to find some alliances with the Sunni States, maybe if possible.
And yeah, to be honest, from my point of view,
like from my perspective, it's a very complicated situation and
I don't you know, I'm not this person. I'm not
a politician. If you ask a question that I do this,
blah blah blah, I really say what I think. To
do honest politics, and to be honest, I don't know
very like to be very frank, I don't know how
to solve the conflict at this point in time. And
I hope maybe you have an answer on that. Sorry
for for being dissatisfactory, but it's so comple picated, and
I want to give pudent answer, and in case of Israel,
I don't know how to resource this conflict. To be honest.
Speaker 1: Well, well, I guess maybe another way to say it is,
do you unercerfectly support the existence of the state of Israel? Yes,
of course, Okay, that's what people want to know. So
questions that seemed very obvious, but you know.
Speaker 3: No, no, yeah, oh yes, now, no, I know I
see it this question. No, absolutely, So we need to
protect the existence of Israel, and we need to protect
not only the existence of the state of Israel. I
also think that Benjamin Natanyao have made many mistakes in
the past, to be honest, but we also need to
take our responsibility as a German nation state to protect
Jewish life, Jewish people in our country who are exposed
right now to uh to, to must Muslim crime. Right,
so they're not safe here anymore. So you I don't
know if you if you saw some videos here of
the streets of Berlin. I'm right now in my office
in Berlin. But like with all these demonstrations of the
Palestinians here, well, a Jew could not walk through the
street anymore, right, and we have have a huge potential
of anti Semitic crime against the Jewish people. And to
be very frank, to be very frank, here, the a
f D is the only protector. And I'm saying that
like very very frankly, the alternative FI Deutschland, the AFT
is the only can only be the only protector of
the Jewish people within here in Germany. Because the UNI Party,
all others parties, they did exactly the opposite. They led
like millions of people and they let do let them
do crimes on our streets, like the crime rate our skyrocketing.
And so the Jewish people they leave our country. When
I when I talked to my Jewish friends who live
in Germany and in Switzerland and in France and in Austria.
They were very afraid after the Hamas attack on the
seventh of October, because they were there. They were afraid
that they would likely to be attacked by by Palestinians,
by Hamas supporters, or by the Antifa, or by the
leftish or is, I don't know, but they were very afraid,
very sensitive going on the streets. And we we step
up for the people, even though the opposite in the
mainstream media, the opposite is claimed. But this is this
is this is not true. It's just a is just
a lie about our party.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's That's what I wanted to just
make it clear that that the AFT is being massively misrepresented,
especially in the in the Western media. So yeah, and
you know, and and and no, obviously I very much
support the state of Israel, but I mean I also
believe that that we want to be mindful and and
have empathy for you know, civilians who are who are
dying as well. Uh the you know, when I've had
conversations with the Prime Minister and the YAHOO and I think,
I say, pret largely agree. I mean, there's see, there's
there's really there's three steps, which is like you're there's
there's no choice but to eliminate those who wish to
eliminate the state of Israel, you know, most essentially. But
then and and then the second step is to fix
the education so that uh, you know, people the palest
unions are not trained from when they are children to
to hate and want the death of Israel. So you've
got to fix the education system. And and then the
third thing, which is also very important, is to make
the palestinion areas prosperous. This is the third step is
very important. And and this this may this is maybe
the hardest step, which is uh, but you have to
have that third step. You have to bring prosperity. You
have to help rebuild, and you have to bring prosperity.
And I've had this conversation with with many people in Israel.
I said that third step is essential and and then
they've asked me, well when has this worked? And I'm like, well,
give you a very big example. You know, after World
War One, the Treaty of Versailles was extremely unfair to
Germany and it created a massive amount of resentment. And
the Treaty of Versailles laid the foundation with its extreme
reparations for laid the foundation of World War two. Without
the Treaty of Versailles, Hitler would not have succeeded. And yes,
and and so and then but if you look at
so so, then the lesson was learned. So then after
World War two, when Germany and Japan were defeated, UH,
the U. S. Actually helped rebuild Japan and Germany, providing
financial support to rebuild Japan and Germany. And now Japan
and Germany are allies. And and this is a very
important and fundamental lesson of history.
Speaker 3: Yes, you're absolutely right. When after the the Hamas attack,
I I just opened Google Maps to have a look. Okay,
what is the geographic situation there? And when you see
the Gaza stripe right, it's the Gaza stripe which is
just locked locked in with no resources and not even
water supplies, so there can be cut off a water
supply and and other supplies just like just just like instantaneously.
And this construction also like like just having a look
like from from a geographic perspective, you don't need to
be very smart that this is this is not going
to work out and to make this area wealthy with
with specific measure being taken, King taken. It's a very
vital first step.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think it's essential.
Speaker 1: It requires overwriting the natural human instinct for reciprocity, which
is that you know, it's basically an eye for an eye,
you know. But the problem with that an I for
an eye is that if you keep doing that, an
iph and eye, as a saying goes an iPhone, ie
makes everyone blind. That's why I think there's great wisdom
to forgiveness. You know, you need both strength and forgiveness.
But this is the only way to stop the endless
cycle of violence.
Speaker 3: M hm. It's a very nice, nice sentence, like the
ipho and I makes makes everyone blind?
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. So yeah, so hopefully that that that can
be the future. That's the best future I can think of.
I think any there's there's not some other future. That's
that's that's that that works.
Speaker 3: So so how about may I ask you another question?
Because we just jump topics, what is your point of view?
So so, so we stopped that your administration will end
the war in Ukraine very swiftly, but what is what
is your perspective on the instruments and measures that could
be taken? So would you like to talk about it.
Can you talk about it a little bit? So what
we could expect.
Speaker 1: Well, this is to be clear, I mean this this
is up to President Trump. You know, here is the
cinder in chief, and so it's it's really uh, you know,
you know, after him.
Speaker 2: So I don't want I don't want to speak for him.
Speaker 1: So but but but I you know, I just I
do think that there's there, there is a path here
to a resolution, and but it does require strong leadership
in the United States, uh, in order to get this done.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah, but I'm confident that it can be done, okay,
And I do think it's possible to have peace in
the Middle East as well. These are these are possible,
so and I think that would be a great future.
Speaker 2: For the world.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, no, great, So it's absolutely fair. So
so very very fine with me.
Speaker 1: Yes, Well, let's see, are there any other topics we
should discuss or if you have any questions for me
or anything you think?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, absolutely, because because because I want to ask
and many people are interested in that. So why do
you believe that flying to Mars and popular Mars is
your top priority topic? Space X? And when do you
think when will you be ready to have a human
expedition to Mars, if you, if you allow, if I
may ask this question, because everyone is interested. So these
are great projects.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, Well, I mean I think at a very
high level, I think sort of like, what what sort
of actions are going to lead to the long term
prosperity of civilization, you know, the sort of a growth
in the scale and scope of consciousness, you know, the
to the best of our knowledge, there we're we're the
only place with life, or certainly the only place with
life that that is intelligent in some form. A lot
of people think, oh, this, there must be aliens, but
I've not seen any evidence of aliens. And if the
archaeological records are correct, you know, Earth is one a
half billion years old, but civilization as measured from the
first writing is only about five thousand years old, which
is about one million of Earth's existence. So we're all
of human civilization is a tiny flash in the pan
so far. And so we are to say, well, what
steps can we take to ensure the long term survival
of of life as we know of consciousness, and if
we are a multiplanet species, the probable life span of
conciousness is dramatically greater than if we are single planet species.
This is not to say that I think that that
Earth is about to die or anything like that, but
there is some risk, you know, if there is if
there is a global thermon nuclear war, or some extreme
natural event like a giant you know, media that hits
the Earth that causes a mass extinction event. I mean,
if we look at the fossil record, there are at
least five extreme mass extinction events that would have just
basically extinction events that would have destroyed all of humanity completely.
There's five of them at least, and so so I
think if we we should take this opportunity today because
for the first time in the four and a half
billion year history of Earth, it is possible to extend
life and to extend consciousness beyond Earth. And that window
of opportunity may be open for a short or it
may be open for a long time, but just just
in case, uh it is open for a short time,
we must take advantage of this window.
Speaker 3: What is your time frame for for expedition, like for
the first first human expedition.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, to be clear that what matters is not
so much the sort of flags and footprints, but the
establishment of a self sustaining city on Mars, where the
critical threshold is where the city can grow independent of Earth.
Meaning if the resupply shifts from Earth stopped coming for
any reason, that the that the the Mars colony does
not die out. That that's if we are able to
reach that point, then we have we have passed one
of the very important and fundamental fermi Grate filters. You know,
there's this idea of like, well, why don't we see
evidence of it, of intelligence life.
Speaker 2: Well that.
Speaker 1: There's this idea that there are these various great filtures
that that these civilizations never pass. And one of those
great filtures is never never going beyond your home planet.
So if we can pass the FIRMI a great filter
of being a single planet species. And to be clear,
if we are a single planet species, it is just
a matter of time before we are annihilated. One can
argue about how long it will take, but eventually there
will be something that happens that annihilates civilization. It might
be very foreign in the future, but we simply know
from the fossil record. As I mentioned that there have
been at least five mass to natural extinction events, and
I think there's there's added risk for humans that we
could destroy ourselves because the dinosaurs did not have the
manuclear weapons, so they also didn't have spaceships. So we've
got we've got the risk of of the minuclear war
that could destroy everyone, but we also have spaceships that
can make life multiplanetary and so the But to answer
a question more directly, I think we can send uncrewed
starships to Mars in approximately two years.
Speaker 2: So Earth and Mars are to be Earth and Mars.
Speaker 1: Align for planetary transfer roughly every month, every two years,
every twenty six two years, two years. Yes, So the
Earth obviously takes a year to go around the Sun,
Mars takes approximately two years, and obviously one cannot go
to Mars when it is on the other side of
the Sun from Earth. So have we have to wait
for when Mars is in roughly the same quadrant of
the Solar System as Earth, and that occurs uh for
about six months every two years, and the optimal transfer
window is typically just a few months. So for a
few months every two years or every twenty six months,
you can you can transfer to Mars.
Speaker 2: So so we're.
Speaker 1: Currently there's currently a Mars transfer transfer window, which means
that the next one is in two years from now,
and then there will be another one two years after that.
So for the one in two years, I think we
can send uncrewed starships to land on Mars to to
test that we the landing systems are working properly. We
want to make sure that we don't, you know, add
add more craters to Mars. Yeah, uh yeah, the crater
account increment must be zero. And so once we prove
better is safe to land, then if I like, for
all these shops we send in about two years land
safely and we think we understand the issues, then in
principle that in about four years you could send the
first people and then then well the number of ships
can expand exponentially from the From that point I mean
as as a rough order of magnitude, my guess is that, uh,
we need to transport about a million about a million
tons of cargo to Mars to make it self sustaining.
You know, when things are very uncertain, I think if
you can even guess to within one order of magnitude,
you're doing quite well. So I suspect probably one hundred
thousand tons is maybe not enough and hopefully we don't
need ten million tons. So therefore my guess is hopefully
a million tons is enough to make million people or more.
Speaker 2: So that's that's really what matters.
Speaker 1: The critical threshold from the standpoint of a fundamental branching
of the future of civilization.
Speaker 2: Is is that.
Speaker 1: That point of reaching on Mars, where Mars can grow
by itself, even if resupply shifts from Earth stop coming.
At that point, the future of civilization branches and to
a good branch, and the probable lifespan of civilization is
dramatically greater. And my guess is that there will be
cases where the future Martians actually come and help and
rescue Earth. And you know, when there is an emergency,
you know, just as America has helped to rescue the
rest of the world in World War one and two
and the Cold War, And you know, where would the
world be if not for America helping out in those
three circumstances. So I think that there's a good chance
Mars helps save Earth at some point in the future,
maybe many times. And then once we have a civilization
of Mars, we can expand to the rest of the
Solar System, to the you know, the larger asteroids like CERAs,
maybe to the moons of Jupiter and Saturn and beyond
at least through the rest of the Solar System. And then,
you know, and then and then we go from being
hopefully a multi planet civilization to at some point a
multi stellar civilization, and we're out there among the stars,
and then we can try to find out what is
the nature.
Speaker 2: Of the universe.
Speaker 1: You know, perhaps perhaps when we go to and visit
these far away star systems, we will discover the remains
of long dead alien civilizations. I think that would be
incredibly interesting. But Pusher, it will greatly improve our understanding
of the nature of universe. Dramatic person, Yes, so, and
and things like the time skills are just remarkable to
think about. In physics suggests that the universe is about
thirteen point eight billion years old. And I mean, even
the elements in our body that aren't hydrogen, that that
they like in any heavier elements had to be formed
in in the center of a star.
Speaker 2: And so the you know, the a.
Speaker 1: Large part of our body was actually formed in the
in the center of a star, and that star exploded
and then the elements recondensed. Ultimately billions of years later
to form Earth and humans. So but just so when
you think about these time scales that were really remarkable
to think about. But a civilization that lasted a million
years so our civilization, you know, like I said, I
think a good metric for saying what when does the
civilization start?
Speaker 2: I think is maybe writing.
Speaker 1: You know, that's if you're going to pick anything, I'd
pick that that's only five thousand years ago. So so
for civilizations, like I said, last and incremental million years,
that's that's an enormous amount of time as compared to
the length of human civilization, but it's very small compared
to the age of the universe. You'd have to go
three digits past the decimal point of thirteen point eight
million years just to increment one million years. So I
think we may find when we go out there and
explore these star systems that there were alien civilizations. Maybe
they lasted for millions of years, much longer than we've lasted.
And I think any civilization that can last a million
years is going to be in the hall of fame.
Speaker 2: This is this is an incredibly long time.
Speaker 1: So anyway, and I think, as you know, for humanity,
we don't want to be one of those lame one
planet civilizations, Like you know, any self respecting civilization should
have at least two planets.
Speaker 2: So that's that's what we should aim for.
Speaker 3: Wow, if you so, you just said that the human
body prices of elements of an exploit and then reordered elements. Right,
So do you do you think that this coincidentally happened
or do you believe in God? I'm just curious because
because because many people say, Okay, this cannot have been
a coincidence, that cannot write. So it just could have
been God. So do you believe in God?
Speaker 1: Well, I'm open to be living in things proportionate to
the information that I receive. So so, I mean, I
guess I have sort of a physics view of reality,
which is, you know, you know, I guess I'm trying
to try.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to.
Speaker 1: Understand the universe as much as possible, to understand what's
going on.
Speaker 2: I'm certainly open to the idea of God.
Speaker 1: And if you say, like, well, where did the universe
come from?
Speaker 2: How is it created?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 1: I suppose there would be some entity that that you
could call God, I would I don't know, but but
there's that's a separate question from say, is is there
some actual that is observing our daily actions and rendering
rendering a moral verdict on what we do from day
to day. That doesn't appear to be the case, because
you know, at least there's some very evil things that
happened in the world, and if if there's someone observing
us on a moral basis continually, then it does seem
odd that some very evil things are allowed to occur.
Speaker 2: But but maybe that is the case. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just I try to form my opinions based on
what I learned, and as I learned moreh I aspire
to change my views to match what I learned.
Speaker 3: M hmm, yeah, same year. To be honest, I'm still
on a search and I I don't know what to believe.
So it's called maybe a agnostic and yeah, but it's
very interesting to see how how the world and also
the universe evolved, and yeah, it was it was incredibly
interesting to listen to your visions and yeah, it's it's
quite a vision for for for every one of us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say that what I have is a
philosophy of curiosity. So I'm curious about the nature of
the Universe. And I would say I subscribed to the
Douglas Adams school of philosophy that was described in the
Hittigers Guys in the Galaxy, you know, and dur in
that book, the Earth was sort of a giant computer
that was trying to answer.
Speaker 2: The question what is the meaning of life?
Speaker 1: And then it comes back with the forty forty two
and they're like, what does forty two mean? And it's well,
it's actually the answer is the easy part and the
question is the hard part.
Speaker 2: So you know, that was actually quite.
Speaker 1: An illuminating thing for me because that had sort of
an existential crisis when I was twelve or thirteen about
the meaning of life. And you know, I read I
read many the religious texts and the books on philosophy.
You know, it's like reading shop Now a niche and whatnot,
which is a bit depressing if you're to read as
a child, but you.
Speaker 3: Know why, well why they're a bit negative, so.
Speaker 1: At times, you know, it's actually it makes more sense
reading it as an adult. But then I read the
hit Tracks Guide to the Galaxy, which is really a
book in philosophy in the form of humor, and and
I think it kind of really that that I thought
was very insightful, that that we should basically try to
understand the nature of the universe and in fact understand
even what questions to ask about the answer that is
the universe. And so that led me to conclude that
we should aspire to expand the scope and scale of
consciousness so that we're better able to to know what
questions to ask about the nature about the answer that
is the universe. So we should we should just seem
to take the set of actions that lead to a
great understanding.
Speaker 2: Of the universe.
Speaker 3: Wonderful. Actually, these are these are perfect last words to
be honest for all conversation because because because I don't
know right now, like what to what to continue, because
he said, well really because these words are so beautiful,
so I would just like screw it up. And it
was wonderful. It was very It was wonderful talking to
you and listening to your views of mankind and also
to to to have an idea of your vision. It's
very visionary. And yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Well, it's been a pleasure speaking and I hope where
people listen to this conversation and find it helpful.
Speaker 2: All right, thanks everyone, Thank you
Speaker 3: Thank you, Bye, thanks,