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Speaker 1: It's so in seas, so exe, it's so insane.

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Speaker 2: All right, what's up everybody? Welcome?

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: It is once again time to get back deep into theology.

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And there's nobody better to do that with than my

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good buddies Kai and David Kay of course from Orthodox

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You hot up, David from the David Arhon channel. What's

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up you guys? How you doing?

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Speaker 3: Hey, Jay, Nice to see you, Nice to see you.

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Spend spent a long time since we last stream. But

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I think this is gonna be it.

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Speaker 4: It's been a minute, as the black people say, it's

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been a minute.

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Speaker 3: This this is gonna be a stream. It's gonna last

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for a lifetime for y'all exactly.

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Speaker 2: Now we have to tell you so this one's gonna

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be thorough. You guys are gonna be going for a

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good while. So strap yourselves in, Grab some popcorn or whatever,

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because we're gonna get deep. Kay's got a lot of slides.

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Get your notebook out, get ready to take notes, because

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we're hoping, really with this series that we're gonna be

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doing here to really put the rest a lot of

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these issues. This is we want this to I mean,

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I assume that that's what you want to do ky

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here so thorough, you want to be a definitive in

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this correct.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, just basically like not leave any stone unturned, just

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be completely thorough and just put the bed like, put

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everything like to bed.

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Speaker 3: Like.

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Speaker 5: There's just not going to be any more debates. You

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watch our content, watch the refutations, make your decisions. That's

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basically what it's going to amount to.

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Speaker 2: All right, And everybody in the chat does to sound good.

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Everybody here Kai as well. Good sounds good. Okay, So

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maybe before we start the slides, briefly, what in the

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most simplistic way would you both describe kind of what

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the main issues are between the Orthodox Church and what's

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called the so called Oriental churches. What are a couple

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of the maybe just brief, I mean, we know this,

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but for the sake of the audience, maybe we've got

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a lot of new listeners over the last couple of

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years since you guys were on I know what Kai

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you wrong for a he sent debate review, but you

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know you do a lot of apologetics towards Islam over

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on Orthodox Shahta David has done a lot of apologetics

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against Himnophicites. A few years ago, he does all kinds

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of topics nowadays. But give us a little breakdown of

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just an overview before we dive into the heavy stuff.

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What's the big difference between Orthodox and Eastern so called

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Oriental the Orientals? Excuse me, since.

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Speaker 5: David has made plenty material on this, I'll let him

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answer first, and then I'll just bank off.

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Speaker 3: I think, well, I guess I'll try to be very short,

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I think at the end of the day, and I

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will also include like the Church of the East and historians. Right,

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it's ultimately about not just the person of Christ, but

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kind of like what a person is, what a nature is,

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and how it relates to Christ and the Trinity, and

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also for all of us. Right, I think, you know,

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we can be very simple and we can just say,

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you know, we believe Christ is one person in two natures,

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and that's kind of just it. But I think a

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big part of it also has to do it kind

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of like how are we related to Christ? How is

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Quite related to us, how are we connected with the Trinity?

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And how do these doctrines all mesh up together? And

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one of the things that you're going to see in

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this presentation, I think that Kaims and I'll try to

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support is that within Orthodoxy there is this consistent thinking

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both in terms of the trinity, the language the metaphysics used,

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and in terms of Christology and in terms of athropology. Right,

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so they're all connected, Whereas with these views you see

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kind of like a very strong disconnect that you know,

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goes down towards the rest of the views in a

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very implicit manner. Right. So it affects Theeosis, it affects

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you know, how we community God, it affects our salvation,

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affects the Eucharist. So for example, just kind of like

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a practical example, one argument Saint Curl used against the historians,

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it was about the Eucharist, right, because the Eucharist, what

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we consume is the body and blood of Christ. Right,

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It's not a body of blood of just a separately

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individuated human being that is, by grace connected to the

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Word of God or something like that. It isn't a mixture,

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it isn't a third thing, a thirteen quid of two natures.

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It is you're partaking of Christ himself. Right, So it

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is about the explanation of the communal life within your structure.

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I think that's kind of the essence of the difference.

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But of course, like from a very basic standpoint, your

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structure to you confess, Christ is one person who's both

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God and man, and so he has two natures. Whereas

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for the Monophysites, I will speak about the Orientals. They

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think he's basically this kind of composition of divinity and

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humanity of like one particular thing. And with the dinstaurance,

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you kind of have to particularly instantiallyd separate subjects, right,

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and this is all going to be the dual subject.

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Speaker 2: Which actually got into this last night and we had

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a Syrian guy call in. He had a good question.

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He was a sincere a caller, and he said, you

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know what, why would you believe that there's not three wills?

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Or why would you believe that Christ possesses two wills?

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And I said, because of the reflexivity between Christology and

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the trinity. There's one will in the trinity because will

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is a property of nature and not hypostasis. We'll get

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into all that, Kai, do you want to say anything?

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Thank you?

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Speaker 3: David?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, just to kind of bank on what David was saying.

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This is kind of really my first time coming into

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the arena, like really had on dealing with the Oriental issue.

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My interest has for the most part been with Islam

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and to some extent, and Nestorianism. But basically what my

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observation here in looking at the changes from both sides,

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my impression is that the Orientals completely lack and understanding

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of soteriology. They are not understanding Saint Cyril and what

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he's saying and how it's framed in a soteriological paradigm.

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And so what they're looking at is they're just looking

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at terms in a very small, isolated context, and they're

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not really understanding how these terms have metaphysical implications, what

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are the ramifications, and what exactly is it that Saint

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Cyril is saying. And one thing that I find striking

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when you read Saint Cyril is he goes out of

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his way to make a statement, but then explains it,

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explains it in simpler terms in a language that you're

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not getting hung up on particular terminology, but he wants

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you to understand the concept. And this is what I'm

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seeing the Orientals really mess up time and again is

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they get hung up on the terminology and they're not

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actually listening to what people like Saint Cyril are actually teaching,

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and so their approach basically boils down to quote mining,

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and they quote mind their own tradition, and then they

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quote mine other traditions, namely like the Orthodox tradition. And

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they're thinking as if everybody is unifical in the way

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that they're using language and what they're saying, and so

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they're filtering what they're seeing in another's paradigm through their

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own paradigm. And then they're like, well, this doesn't make

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any sense, and this is what they're saying, and they're

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the historians and this and that. It's basically the move

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that they're making is the Muslim move. The Muslims have

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their own paradigm in Islam, how they're understanding certain concepts

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they are seeing terminology being used in Christianity, for example,

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and then they just try to take that over into

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their paradigm and filter it that way and try to

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make sense of it. And it doesn't make sense because

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they're not understanding the immediate context. And so I think

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that's really for me where the CrOx of the issue is.

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And so the way I structured this presentation is we're

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really going to focus on paradigms. We're going to understand

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what each of the respective paradigms are and how they

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have an effect on soteriology and other things as well. Christology, triadology,

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it's all kind of part of the same boat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think hopefully one thing that will become clear

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is that, as Kai said, you know, there's a lack

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of flexibility when it comes to the usage of certain terms.

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There's an over rigidity that this word has to be

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used and you know, not conceding to the fact that well,

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even though the other side might be used using a

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different term, they might mean the same thing. And so

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when we see, for example, as we're going to see

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the kind of the shift i'm sure between how hypostasis

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is used early on and then the more specific usage

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that it comes to take in later centuries, that rigidity

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doesn't allow there to be much flexibility with language. And

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I don't know if you've if you read the mcguck

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and book, but that one discusses this this issue pretty well.

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I think, so I might bring in some of those

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topics because I have some of those texts here in

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front of me. But yeah, the other thing I would

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say too is I think you really hit the nail

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on the head with the soteriology issue, because it's not

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just a matter of whether you're using the right terms,

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because you also have to have this you know downstream,

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you have you have a seteriology downstream from your Christology,

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and if your Christology is messed up, the steriology won't

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be right. And so what ends up happening in my

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experience is that I've never really had any solid person

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from that tradition give a clear explanation about the energies.

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And the funny thing is that Cyril is very clear

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about the energies and they're clearly distinct, especially the two

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letters to six census, So you know, that kind of stuff,

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I think will be a way to further demonstrate that

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there's severe problems and what they're doing on their side,

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as well as iconography. I don't know if your presentation

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will go into iconography, but iconography is also another way

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to get into what avenues to refute their position, just

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like the energies are. But I'll let you take over

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from this point.

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Speaker 6: Okay, thanks Jay.

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Speaker 5: So, yeah, this is going to be quite a few slides,

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and I don't mean to monologue the entire time, almost

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like yeah, Jay's talking.

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Speaker 6: They can hear you.

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Speaker 5: Okay. Basically, if at any point in time, Jay or David,

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if you guys want to chime in by any means,

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just chime in. Otherwise I'm just gonna get carried away

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and just keep on keep on going. But I want

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this to be kind of like a free float discussion

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and getting your guys input to fully flesh things out.

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So I'll start with this beginning slide, and this is

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basically from Emperor Saint Justinian in five point fifty one,

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making it crystal clear what is the one Holy Catholic

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and Apostolic Church. There's a lot of discussion online right

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now of Apostolic Christianity and how we need to kind

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of band together. We're all part of the body. That's

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not the historical teaching of the church.

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Speaker 6: Okay.

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Speaker 5: Seeing that nothing pleases the Merciful God more than that

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all Christians be of one mind concerning the pure Orthodox faith,

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and that there be no schisms in God's Holy Church,

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we deem it necessary that the confession of the true faith,

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which the Holy Church of God proclaims, be made clear

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by this edict, for the purpose of removing every occasion

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for scandal, so that those who confess the true faith,

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might guard it with firmness, and those who contend against

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it may learn the truth and hasten to unite themselves

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to the Holy Church of God. So those of you

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guys who keep talking about the Orthodox are divisive. No,

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if you want a united Church, if you want to

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be part of the Body of Christ, join Orthodoxy. Okay,

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We're not going to be compromising the faith to placate

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your feelings. Go and learn what the true faith is. Okay.

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This is historical Christianity. This is what is on record

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of the Orthodox Church teaching. And there's no compromising this.

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I'm sorry if I'm hurting people's feelings here, that's the

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reality of it. You want to be part of the

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Body of Christ, you need to be part of the

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Orthodox Church. So before I dive into the presentation proper,

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I have several preliminary slides that are basically going to

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be a preamble that kind of sets the stage for

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the entire series. Okay, and this is going to be

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a multi presentation, multi part presentation series. There's lots of

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ground to cover. Please be patient, Okay, we'll in all

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likelihood we will touch upon issues that you want to

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hear about, but we have a time and place for that, okay,

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And we're going to demonstrate that the Orientals simply quote mine,

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that's what they do. They do not provide any intellectual analysis,

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nothing substantive from their citations. They do not understand the

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underlying metaphysics and theology. They really do not.

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Speaker 3: So I'd just kind of like to like chime in

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just very short sort of for interrupting, but like in

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terms of that, like the most I seen, the highest

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I scene is just kind of just a restatement of

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Aristotelian metaphysics of particulars and natures. That that's it. Like,

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it's just a very basic, bare bone restatement. And I

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think we're going to see a lot of that in

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like the coming presentations of like what I'm actually meaning

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by that. But I can definitely agree with kind like

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it's mostly just quotes, quotes, quotes quotes. Oh you know,

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you know there's a statement about Christ being one nature

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here by this saint. You know you have to accept review.

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And you know, if you're talking about things that lasted

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for sixteen hundred years or a thousand years, right like

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these issues, trust me, you know you're not the smart

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guy in the room. You didn't find out this like

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magical thing that's just going to end up debate completely.

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There needs to be a holistic account, like the same

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with the Bible, right like you're not You're not the

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smartest guy in the room. You didn't find out and

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newved to read the Bible verse two thousand years after

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you know it came out or whatever, or the way

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you understand is holistically how it measures welve with the

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rest of scripture, the rest of the written work, and

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also the rest of the tradition, both written and unwritten.

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So that's something that I also want to tell people

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that's going to be very important to bear in mind.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, thank you, David.

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Speaker 5: Did you want to add to that, Jay.

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Speaker 6: No, okay.

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Speaker 5: So I envision these this series to comprise nine parts.

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I'm open to suggestions to include other topics, but this

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is what I felt would be thorough enough to basically

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make a comprehensive presentation on the topic. So today we're

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going to be focusing a lot on orthodox matter physics,

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and it's not really just going to be orthodox metaphysics proper.

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It is going to contrast orthodoxy with the metaphysics of

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the Orientals and the Nestorians, and by that I mean

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the Church of the East. And so we're going to

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basically put the cards on the table of what each

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position really is. Part two is going to really hone

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in on understanding composite hypostasis and the essence energies distinction

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and why this is important, especially when we're talking about

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and hyposthetization. The composite hypostasis is a term that's thrown around.

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It is a term that the Orthodox use, that we recognize,

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our saints use it, but there's a lot of misinformation

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and misunderstanding what is meant by compassite hypostasis, and so

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I think it's really important to have a stream just

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on that explaining to people how Christ is a composite

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hypostasis and where the differences between the Orientals and the Nestorians.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I just want like just a short addition too,

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Like I mean, pretty much like the the Monophesides, the Orthodox,

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like we use this term. Okay, So the issue isn't

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what term is used. In a lot of ways, sometimes

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it is about what term is used, but sometimes it

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isn't about what term is used, is how that term

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is understood. So for example, you know, in Nestorians, they

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will say that there's a compot composite hype stasis that

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is composed of two hypostasis, right in terms of like

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two individuals substantiated, you know, self subsistent particulars. The thing

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is the monopesides will also say the same thing. The

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main difference is that the human nature is not self subsistent.

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It's kind of more like an accident, right, like an

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aerostilian accident. So if you will use it, but we

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will have completely different understandings and meanings behind the term.

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So that's also another thing that people need to bear

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in mind, especially with a lot of the terms. Like again,

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sometimes there's some terms, there are some terms that you

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know when you use it, it's kind of like a

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test to four ducks. I think homo ussios has been

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one of those terms throughout history. But there's a lot

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of terms that a lot of different signs use and

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they have completely different views about it. And that's something

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that a lot of people really miss and you only

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really understand that if you actually did the research. That's

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why you shouldn't just be reading quotes online. You read

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like fifty quotes in two months. You don't become an expert. Okay,

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you don't like know everything. Even when you read something

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or watch are Like someone can read the Bible, you know,

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cover to cover, they can still understand nothing about it

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because they don't actually read it, they don't actually try

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to understand it. So that's something I think that's a

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point that we kind of need to make, especially about

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this term, because I think it's kind of like being

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in a filtering process for a lot a lot of people.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, and that the part too that presition

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is going to focus on the cops people statis, but

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to basically talk to that point that you're saying, David,

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in this presentation, I'm going to be using the example

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of person and what is meant by person by different parties,

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And that's basically going to illustrate how we're looking at

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this to set us up for part two to understand

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comes of kypostasis.

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Speaker 2: I want to say something here. Also, you have to understand, well,

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you're absolutely right that the different paradigms are using these

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words in different ways, in different senses. Also, what's happening

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is that the terminology is not always the same from

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the time of NICEA until by the time of the

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Fifth Council, there's specificity and the terms have more precision

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and meaning packed into them. And so even the same term,

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for example, whopostasis, if everybody has read the Nicene Creed,

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you'll notice that it says that there's one hypostasis. So

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wait a minute, are we modalists? Well, that's at that time,

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I mean, I've actually I'm not sure people arguing that right.

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So at that time it meant a concrete just it

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just meant a concrete single nature, and so it was

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used for nature. But eventually it becomes three h hopostases

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and one ussia or fusius or essence or nature and

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so and the same thing will happen with other terminology.

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New terms will be introduced, like in hypostotic, and so

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we'll need to understand what the debates, what the leontii,

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all of these different people mean by this when they

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introduce the terms. You can't just see a term, as

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like David said, and then go look up in like

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a like I've got in front of me, for example,

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a dictionary of scholastic philosophy. And so for example Thomas

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might see these terms and then they go look it up. Oh,

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it just means this, Well, it might not have meant

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that to somebody in the third century. It might have

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been something different to somebody in the sixth century, et cetera.

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Speaker 5: Yep, all right, moving on, So Part three, I'm gonna

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hyper focus on the Church of the East and Islamic metaphysics.

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And this is really important. This is really important because

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historically the Church of the East went out of its

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way to write their apologetics material to demonstrate their compatibility

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with Islamic tawheed okay, their Christology to be their Christology

365
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and triadology to actually be compatible with Islamic metaphysics. And

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they would even go so far as to say, hey, guys,

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we are the people of the book that the Kuran

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talks about. We want to preserve our demi status. The

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real heretics they're the Orthodox, the Byzantines, the Melchites, and

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the Orientals or the Jacobites. So if you're going to

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persecute someone, go and persecute them, let us retain our

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demi status, okay. And that's a historical reality for the

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Church of the East trying to preserve their own community.

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And so this is going to be very important to

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really drive the point home how the Orthodox actually deviate

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in their theology from the Nestorians, from the Church of

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the East. And this is going to put to bed

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these argumentations coming from the Orientals that, oh, you guys

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are Nestorians, you guys are Nestorians. No, we're going to

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demonstrate to you what Nestorianism actually looks like, not what

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you guys think Nestorianism looks like.

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Speaker 6: Okay.

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Speaker 5: Part four is just going to be basically like a

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primer on Aristotelian metaphysics, and for that one potential to

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invite Father Deacon an Anius to do the stream with

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Jay and kind of really flesh the ground on that,

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because that's going to then set us up for the

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Oriental metaphysics and really under standing what the Orientals are saying,

389
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how they understand particular natures, how they're basically espousing the

390
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nominalist type paradigm. What is the implications of their metaphysics

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with regards to the number of wills in the Godhead?

392
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Who incarnates? Is it the entirety of the Trinity that incarnates,

393
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the ideas about monothelitism and the problems with that monoanergism.

394
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Moving on, we'll look at ecmmuenical councils. So now that

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we have basically the paradigms laid out, we're going to

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now read the ecumenical councils and see which paradigm has

397
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a consistent progression through these councils and maintains consistency. So

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which paradigm has the explanat to power for each of

399
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the councils consistently. Then I'm going to look at the

400
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Church of the East synods, and this is also very

401
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:19,240
important because there is some striking theology to be gained

402
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from those synods, and it will demonstrate how the Church

403
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of the East was never a monolithic structure in terms

404
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of its theology. There were basically two branches. One that

405
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developed along the lines of Theodora of Mopsuestia and Nestorias

406
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and really took on the mantle of Nestorianism. And once

407
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it did that, it actually exterminated from within the Church

408
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of the East stream the more proper Orthodox teachings. Okay,

409
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and this is really going to be important to understand

410
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what differentiates the Church of the East and the Orthodox.

411
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We'll look at ecclesial history, might look to get Ubi

412
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Petris on board.

413
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Speaker 6: For that one.

414
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Speaker 5: He's he's very knowledgeable in in this. And then once

415
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we have all of that laid out, then we're gonna

416
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come and look at the Oriental quote mining. Okay, We're

417
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gonna now look at all the stupidity that the Orientals

418
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keep throwing out with their quotes in terms of the

419
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way they understand it. I'm not saying that the quotes

420
00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:37,200
themselves are stupid, but they their understanding of the quotes

421
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that they're bringing forward. Their understanding is stupid. And so

422
00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:47,519
we're gonna now apply the respective paradigms to see which

423
00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:52,200
one makes most sense, which one is consistent with triadology,

424
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which one is consistent with Christology, which one is consistent

425
00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,200
with soteriology, and which one has explanatory power or does

426
00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:06,519
not also fall into any kind of illogicity. I don't

427
00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:07,599
know if you want to ad anything.

428
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,599
Speaker 3: David, No, I think I think this is pretty good.

429
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And of course it's kind of like a I think,

430
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,200
like a working document of sorts. So I think something

431
00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:18,640
you can kind of like add stuff or just down

432
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,000
the loan. I think down the road, I think there

433
00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:23,799
can be things that are added or clarified or just

434
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,880
kind of just be just moo as scheduled, right, I

435
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,039
think whatever happens happens, right.

436
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like, I'm open to making more streams on this.

437
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,160
This is just kind of like a working, working plan

438
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,640
that I had, But I'm definitely if there's anything else

439
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,599
to add to it, I'm open to it. Okay. So

440
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:51,599
metaphysics is inherent to historical and biblical Christianity, Okay. Are

441
00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:56,559
a lot of the arguments against the various heresies that

442
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,400
came about throughout history are they made using scripture? Absolutely,

443
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,440
I'm not denying whatsoever that our church fathers would make

444
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:12,559
arguments based on scripture. For example, at the heart of

445
00:28:13,039 --> 00:28:18,279
the various heresies that were dealt with by the ecumenical councils,

446
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there is metaphysics involved. To understand what arianism is teaching,

447
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,119
you have to understand why it's interpreting scripture a particular way,

448
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:38,599
because it's a metaphysical understanding of scripture that is differentiating

449
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,839
it from Orthodoxy. And so when you look at all

450
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of the ecumenical councils, Arianism, Macedonism, historianism, monophysitism, monothelitism, mon energism,

451
00:28:49,559 --> 00:28:53,799
b conoclasm, all of this has arguments that can be

452
00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:58,119
made from scripture, but also arguments that can be made

453
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:01,480
from a metaphysical point of view. When you look at

454
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,440
the Palamite councils to dogmatize essence energies distinction, that's a

455
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:12,680
metaphysical line of argumentation that's basically used. You can substantiate

456
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,400
it with scripture, and we have ways that scripture can

457
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,880
point to an essence energies distinction, but the fleshing out

458
00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:23,559
to demonstrate the illogicity of those who do not subscribe

459
00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:26,680
to an essence energies distinction. Those are metaphysical arguments.

460
00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:30,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, yeah, just kind of like supporting that point.

461
00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:32,640
I think like if you read the Triads of Saint

462
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,759
Gregory Pallemas, that's kind of how he starts fit right, Like,

463
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,920
it's ultimately a defense of Hezechasm, an orthodox spiritual practice,

464
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,359
which is biblical traditional. This is kind of what he's defending.

465
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But he's using what you say, like metaphysical line of

466
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,119
argumentation in order to defend right something that's ultimately biblical

467
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,599
and taught by the Church to his time, and this

468
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,559
is the time that he needed to defend it via

469
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,319
this line of thinking. So what we see throughout these

470
00:29:57,319 --> 00:30:00,440
economical councils. It's a combination of all of these, right,

471
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,240
like what the scripture and the Church witness, it is

472
00:30:03,279 --> 00:30:06,839
being supported by these kinds of argumentations. And it's not

473
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:09,079
I think very important to also point out that when

474
00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:13,400
we speak about metaphysics, it's not just we borrow Plato

475
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,240
or we borrow Aristotle completely without any kind of modifications.

476
00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:23,519
It's not that, right. The Church, in various different instances

477
00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:28,839
has actually been using these metaphysics have also refuted the

478
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:34,720
metaphysics of Ariostole and Platonism, not necessarily directly, but indirectly.

479
00:30:34,759 --> 00:30:37,599
I think just one example of this is that you know,

480
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,680
we see this kind of substance accidents dichotomy being rejected

481
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,200
by Saint Gregory Palamas. Right, Doctor t Computer's book talks

482
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,559
about this, say, Grega Palamas denies this like the strict dichotomy,

483
00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:51,119
and he speaks about energies as kind of like another

484
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,440
thing that we can also speak of. So this is

485
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,240
actually relevant to also monophysicism and Serninism as well, which

486
00:30:57,279 --> 00:30:58,960
we're going to be talking about more in depth about

487
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,079
the presentation. But the point that I'm trying to make

488
00:31:01,119 --> 00:31:03,200
here to kind of support what Kai is saying here

489
00:31:03,279 --> 00:31:05,960
is essentially yeah, this is what this is kind of

490
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,880
what they what we see in the commitical councils. It's

491
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,680
kind of like the dogmatic explanation, the expression of a

492
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:18,480
combination of you know, scripture, tradition and metaphysics being harmonized

493
00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:23,480
and spoken to us in as I said, ecclesial language

494
00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:26,720
that we use today. Right. The creed, the nice Creed

495
00:31:26,799 --> 00:31:29,720
is just the main example of this, Right, There's a

496
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,319
lot of metaphysics involved in a nicing creed, but we're

497
00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:34,920
seeing it in our churches. We say it in our

498
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,400
churches and in every single liturgy, every single prayer we do.

499
00:31:38,519 --> 00:31:40,680
It's it's said all the time, right, as kind of

500
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,440
like the ecclesial manifestation of our faith. So this is

501
00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:46,680
kind of what we're working with at the same time.

502
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,240
So it seems very difficult. So it's very deep, and

503
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,440
one might ask why are we looking into this, because

504
00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:56,480
that's kind of if you want to understand more in

505
00:31:56,519 --> 00:31:59,559
a deeper way, this is how we understand these things, right,

506
00:31:59,599 --> 00:32:01,279
So that's kind of like the reason why if we

507
00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:02,039
look into this.

508
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: I would say too, although we're not addressing Tomism and

509
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,279
what was dogmatized in Rome, or any of those things.

510
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,960
And by extension, this will also touch on the mistakes

511
00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:18,160
that are made there because ultimately the essence centergy distinction

512
00:32:19,079 --> 00:32:23,599
becomes more tangible and more visible in terms of theology

513
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,960
in Christology than it is in the strict trinitarian doctrine.

514
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,799
I mean definitely. You know, you can read doctor Pino's

515
00:32:29,839 --> 00:32:32,799
book or Palmite Synods and you see it addressed in

516
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,519
terms of the Trinity suret and God's relationship to the

517
00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:38,960
world and creation. But it gets really precise when you

518
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:45,720
get into the monoinergist disputes, the mono thelite dispute, say

519
00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:48,920
Maximus et cetera, John Tomascus. That's where the energy is.

520
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,000
Doctrine becomes really crystal clear that it cannot be something

521
00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:56,480
that's only conceptual or in some way a reductionist, a

522
00:32:56,559 --> 00:32:59,200
reductionist move made to you know, reduce it to the

523
00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:02,039
essence or something like that. So you're gonna notice, I think,

524
00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:04,960
and especially I always refer to the two Letters to

525
00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:10,279
six census because it refuses not just Protestantism and Oriental theology,

526
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,920
but it also refuses Rome by extension, because the energies

527
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,200
are necessary, for example, for explaining what exactly you're partaken

528
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,720
of in the Eucharist. Without that, it makes no sense

529
00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:23,759
because nobody believes we're eating the essence of Goday. Then

530
00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:27,680
what are we partaken of? Well, Rome says a creature.

531
00:33:28,119 --> 00:33:31,200
It's an accident created in the soul. That is not

532
00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:33,599
that is not the righteousness or the grace of it,

533
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,559
That is not the rightians or life of Got himself.

534
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,680
So by extension, this will touch on all of the heresies,

535
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,680
because all heresies ultimately are deviations from the Trinity and

536
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,880
from Christology.

537
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, and just to round it out, I mean metaphysics.

538
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,559
It's it's a line of argumentation that can be used

539
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,680
to expose heresies that we see popping up today, for

540
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:03,559
example Calvinism. And it's also relevant for the debate between

541
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,599
Orthodox and Roman Catholics that Jay had just alluded to

542
00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:12,559
asence energy distinction versus absolute divine simplicity. Those are debates

543
00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:20,360
on metaphysics. What is metaphysics? So, in a nutshell, it

544
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,719
is a branch of philosophy, and the recognized branches are

545
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:32,400
typically metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, and logic. And so these presentations

546
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:39,360
are going to be basically framed around metaphysics and will

547
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:45,760
incorporate logic obviously, to demonstrate where certain paradigms lack any

548
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,480
kind of consistent explanatory power and then just basically fall apart.

549
00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:54,960
Metaphysics is the study of reality, and it addresses questions

550
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,480
related to ontology like being existence.

551
00:34:58,840 --> 00:34:59,639
Speaker 6: I'm getting into.

552
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 5: The discussion of universals versus particulars, identity, causation, those those

553
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,440
kinds of things, and that's going to be highly relevant

554
00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:13,239
when you're talking about when you say human or humanity,

555
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,039
are you talking about only particulars? Are you talking about universals?

556
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,760
What is meant when you're using that kind of a

557
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:29,719
nomenclature in your metaphysical paradigm. Now, why exactly is metaphysics relevant?

558
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:36,519
It contextualizes historical theological debates. So when you look at,

559
00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:41,719
for example, Orthodox who maintain a real incarnation versus gnostics

560
00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:48,360
and illusory incarnation. Okay, if we put scripture aside for

561
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,599
a moment and we want to just examine a real

562
00:35:51,639 --> 00:35:55,559
incarnation versus an illusory incarnation, well, how are you going

563
00:35:55,599 --> 00:36:00,320
to compare what these systems teach? Fundamentally, that boils down

564
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:06,760
to a metaphysical discussion. Okay, in the circle that I'm

565
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,840
basically focused on with regards to Islam. We're looking at

566
00:36:11,159 --> 00:36:16,599
Christian trinitarianism versus Islamic talheed. Okay, it doesn't matter that

567
00:36:16,639 --> 00:36:20,719
you're saying, as a Muslim, God is one. I know

568
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,679
that you're saying God is one, But what do you

569
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,800
mean when you're saying that God is one? Because when

570
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,000
you're saying that God is one, that's not the same

571
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,800
thing as saying that there's only one God.

572
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 6: Okay.

573
00:36:32,039 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 5: So this understanding of God being quote unquote one is

574
00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:40,960
a metaphysical discussion. And so when the Christians say that

575
00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:46,159
God is one and subsistence three hypostases, well, what does

576
00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:50,159
that mean? That's a metaphysical discussion. And that's relevant. And

577
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:57,960
this is why you don't really see Orientals engaging with Muslims.

578
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,719
They claim that, oh, our fathers a thousand years ago

579
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,719
is they refuted Islam? Okay, that's fine, they may have

580
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,039
refuted Islam. What are you guys doing today, Where are

581
00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:14,320
your discussions with Islam to actually describe your understanding of

582
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,000
the Christian trinity in terms of the metaphysics and the

583
00:37:18,039 --> 00:37:23,559
metaphysics of Islamic taalheed? It's non existent because the Orientals

584
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,239
do not even understand their own metaphysics. They don't understand

585
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,920
how to use universals in particulars in the whole language

586
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:37,320
of those paradigms to basically address Islam, and so they

587
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,880
shy away from it. Metaphysics is at the heart of

588
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,519
understanding the church fathers and ecumenical councils go and rd

589
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,000
Saint Athanasius, go and read Saint Cyril, go and read

590
00:37:49,039 --> 00:37:55,920
Saint Gregory. They write about metaphysical ideas. And it's through

591
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:01,400
metaphysics that you're going to understand what differentiates modalism versus arianism,

592
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,440
versus Nestorianism versus whatever. Is a heresy that that's out there.

593
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,000
That's what's going to allow you to distinguish between the

594
00:38:09,039 --> 00:38:13,880
two and what is it exactly being professed by those

595
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,519
various groups. And most importantly as well, is that it

596
00:38:18,599 --> 00:38:28,280
elaborates concepts within paradigms, specifically to avoid word concept fallacies. Okay,

597
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,760
so when you say hypostasis, well, does that refer to

598
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,760
something abstract or concrete? And this is getting back to

599
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,400
what Jay had alluded to earlier when he was saying

600
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,159
that you see this kind of refining of the meaning

601
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,760
in later centuries from when it was initially when it

602
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,000
was initially used, is it a universal or is it

603
00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:55,639
a particular? And does everyone mean the same thing when

604
00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,519
each respectively says hypostasis. Well, that's your metaph physics that's

605
00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:05,760
going to inform you of that answer. So you cannot

606
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:12,119
divorce understanding the various heresies without understanding metaphysics. You just

607
00:39:12,199 --> 00:39:18,320
you just can't, okay. And this is why the Orientals

608
00:39:18,679 --> 00:39:22,679
will shy away from getting into any kind of substantive discussion,

609
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:29,239
and they try to gear the their polemics in let's say,

610
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:34,400
a historical direction or this quote mining without actually understanding

611
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,840
the positions of the Orthodox, and let alone understanding their

612
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,960
own their own positions.

613
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 2: So I didn't want to add something there, sure, And

614
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,800
we had just this came up with doctor Bow because

615
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,480
some people might say, well, why do I care about

616
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,880
this kind of stuff when you know, what's the Bible

617
00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:56,360
say or where is this in scripture? And I've actually

618
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,280
heard monophic sides making this kind of argument too, that well,

619
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:01,920
why do I need all this kind of stuff? Well,

620
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,480
you need all this kind of stuff because I mean,

621
00:40:04,559 --> 00:40:07,960
even in the New Testament you have the usage of

622
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,639
these kinds of terms. You have hypostasis being used in

623
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,400
Hebrews one where it says that the sun is the

624
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,280
direct image of the Father's hypostasis. Well, what does that mean?

625
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,480
So in other words, you have Paul assuming Paul Rohebrews,

626
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,960
which we believe usage of this even in the New Testament.

627
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,280
So let's not get the idea that, oh, well, this

628
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,239
doesn't anything really to do with the Bible. It's a

629
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,440
bunch of Church fathers getting into philosophy. Well, there's a

630
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,239
great essay by Father Fulorowski on Revelation, and he talks

631
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,599
about how let's not also make the mistake of thinking

632
00:40:40,679 --> 00:40:44,480
that any of the Church fathers is necessarily totally wedded

633
00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:48,400
to some philosophical system. We have the freedom and the

634
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:53,480
liberty within our Christian theology to utilize the concepts or

635
00:40:53,519 --> 00:40:56,480
reject the concepts as we see fit. So we are

636
00:40:56,519 --> 00:41:02,679
not wedded to Platonism, Neoplatonism, Arisitilianism, porphyry Stoicism. You know,

637
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,880
any of these things might have a concept or a

638
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,159
term that helps us. That's that's useful. It does not

639
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,400
mean that wholesale we've adopted that system, and that causes

640
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,159
a lot of people to make huge mistakes. So just

641
00:41:14,199 --> 00:41:15,599
a little side note.

642
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd also like to yeah, you go ahead, go ahead,

643
00:41:19,119 --> 00:41:21,199
if you're going to well, I'm.

644
00:41:21,119 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 5: Just gonna throw in just you also have like two

645
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,400
Peter one for the classic and it's a favorite of

646
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,880
saying Cyril when he's saying partaking of the divine nature?

647
00:41:29,199 --> 00:41:32,360
So how are you gonna understand that absolutely physical context?

648
00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 6: Okay? Yeah?

649
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 3: And and yeah, and and also I mean, like there's

650
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,480
so many words actually that we kind of just translate

651
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,159
in like simple English in the Bible. That's that that

652
00:41:43,199 --> 00:41:46,159
has that kind of history too. I mean not even

653
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,360
not even I'm not even gonna get into these words

654
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,199
like energy is one of those sort of energy right,

655
00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:53,480
but even like logos, right, I mean, how do we

656
00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:55,679
understand I mean there's a way of understanding it in

657
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,599
the wrong way, a way of understanding it's in a

658
00:41:57,639 --> 00:42:00,280
completely correct way, right, Like you can understand in this

659
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,239
Greek philosophical way, and you end up just kind of

660
00:42:03,639 --> 00:42:06,719
moving away from what scripture teaches. But that's how a

661
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,840
lot of people think what scripture actually teaches, right, That's

662
00:42:09,639 --> 00:42:12,760
that's the thing. So it's not as simple as you know,

663
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,639
I just have my Bible and I'm going to read it.

664
00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:18,679
Of course, you can understand these terms when you feed scripture,

665
00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:25,320
but if you understand kind of like the what's behind

666
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,840
these things, it'll help you understand it in a much

667
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,639
deeper level. And don't we want to understand scripture at a

668
00:42:31,679 --> 00:42:33,559
deeper level, but we want to understand it.

669
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 2: And the church on the service level exactly. And the

670
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,760
church fathers themselves were also, many of them lettered men,

671
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,679
and so they were trained in classical pedagogy, classical education.

672
00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:49,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, all right, I'll move on.

673
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:55,639
Speaker 5: So basically, what is the debate about. It's concilier metaphysics.

674
00:42:56,079 --> 00:42:59,199
So in order to be part of the Church, you

675
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,360
must adhere to its teachings as pronounced and taught by

676
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:10,159
the ecumenical councils and explicitly anathematize those it anathematizes.

677
00:43:11,159 --> 00:43:12,119
Speaker 6: Okay.

678
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,119
Speaker 5: Apostolic Christianity is Orthodox Christianity.

679
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:17,079
Speaker 6: Okay.

680
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 5: The Orientals are not Apostolic Christianity. The Church of the

681
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:28,519
East Historians, they're not Apostolic Christianity. The Roman Catholics they're

682
00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:31,159
not Apostolic Christianity.

683
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,559
Speaker 6: And how do we know that.

684
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:38,159
Speaker 5: They're not Apostolic Christianity because there is a hard prohibition

685
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:44,280
on communing non Orthodox, and why don't we commune non

686
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,360
Orthodox because they are not part of the One Holy

687
00:43:48,599 --> 00:43:55,639
Catholic and Apostolic Church. Okay, So if you want to

688
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,400
be in communion with the Church, if you want to

689
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:04,360
be appstolic in your profession of the Christian faith, you

690
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,840
have to profess the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils. And

691
00:44:10,119 --> 00:44:14,519
those councils do not shy away from engaging in metaphysics.

692
00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:18,159
They do not. And we will go through that, and

693
00:44:18,199 --> 00:44:21,400
we will demonstrate that in great detail. You'll see that

694
00:44:22,199 --> 00:44:24,800
pop up here and there. But the one stream on

695
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,599
the Ecumenical Councils that will dedicate to just that topic alone,

696
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,519
you will see how loaded it is with the metaphysics.

697
00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:37,599
Apostolicity is not that you have just a lineage that

698
00:44:37,639 --> 00:44:41,159
you can trace back down to the Apostles. That is

699
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:46,599
one element of apostolicity. But in order to be apostolic,

700
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:51,840
you must preserve the entirety of the faith that was

701
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,320
deposited and entrusted to the Apostles and safeguarded by the

702
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:57,079
Holy Spirit.

703
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:58,280
Speaker 6: Okay.

704
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:09,280
Speaker 5: Orthodox does not promote or admit to ecumunism, because at

705
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,079
that point it's saying that it does not have the

706
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:17,639
entirety of the faith. Why would it compromise the entirety

707
00:45:17,679 --> 00:45:19,360
of the faith if it is certain that it has it.

708
00:45:20,119 --> 00:45:26,239
So de facto, if you are an ecumunist, you're admitting

709
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,639
that you don't have the full entirety of the truth.

710
00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:35,000
And this is why within Orthodoxy there is a strong revulsion.

711
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,039
We are repulsed by the idea of ecumunism because we

712
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:43,599
maintain the truthfulness of the depositive faith, that we have

713
00:45:43,679 --> 00:45:50,760
it in its entirety, and that we've preserved it. Now specifically,

714
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:58,679
when we're looking at conciliar metaphysics, it's basically where you

715
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:03,559
start seeing these jung in the theology start basically appearing.

716
00:46:03,639 --> 00:46:09,119
It's how we're going about applying Cappadocian metaphysics to Christology

717
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:16,800
so that it reflects Cappadocan triadological principles. Okay, because your

718
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:22,480
Christology has to mirror your triadology. You can't be talking

719
00:46:22,519 --> 00:46:28,119
about two separate metaphysics with different metaphysical rules that do

720
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,760
not interact with each other in a coherent way. And

721
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,639
so what you're looking at here is to have a

722
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:45,719
Cappadocan triadology being reflected in the Christology. Okay, and the

723
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,880
finer level of how can I say it, it's like

724
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:54,599
the debate. It's looking at how to formulate a coherent

725
00:46:54,679 --> 00:47:02,119
doctrine of ontological coordination basically omous between the Father and

726
00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:07,239
the son in order to refute ontological subordination. And this

727
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:12,000
is where you get these aryan positions of that are

728
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,480
range in the spectrum of omeusios or eterousios, so like

729
00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:21,400
similar or like essence or different essence versus the same

730
00:47:21,519 --> 00:47:24,039
essence homousios between.

731
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:24,599
Speaker 6: The son and the Father.

732
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 5: But the but what happens here is that the Cappadocians,

733
00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:33,519
they were focused on the triadology, and so they did

734
00:47:33,559 --> 00:47:38,599
not address all of the nuances with regards to Christology.

735
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,519
And this is where we get the debates that come

736
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:45,559
after the Cappadocians, Well, how do we take their system,

737
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:55,320
their metaphysics and flesh out a coherent Christology so considered

738
00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:00,559
contruct conciliar Christology is so Cappadocian tridology was formulated to

739
00:48:00,599 --> 00:48:06,119
present a coherent paradigm consisting of nature person distinctions and

740
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,800
same essence consubstantial metaphysics with regards to the persons of

741
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,159
the Holy Trinity and the divine essence. So by consubstantial

742
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,400
meaning that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit all share of

743
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:25,559
the same essence, yet there is a distinction in the persons.

744
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,199
So how do the Cappadocians address this and how do

745
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:34,920
they formulate their metaphysics? Then you have what a Cappadocian

746
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,760
Christology necessitates. So you have to maintain a nature person

747
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,679
distinction with regards to the Son's hypostasis and his two

748
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:50,320
natures divine and human, while maintaining double consubstantiality with the

749
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:55,400
Father and us, or the consubstantiality and essence between divinity

750
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:56,880
and humanity.

751
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 3: Yes, so yeah, just like for people that might say,

752
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,000
like when the double consubstantial to formula, by the way,

753
00:49:05,079 --> 00:49:06,880
is used by a lot of fathers, seeing Curle being

754
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,159
one of them, like explicitly right, and basically like what

755
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,679
Kay is getting at here to put it into like

756
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,880
very simple terms, It's like, consubstantially just means having the

757
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,480
same essence, right, So the Son is God because he

758
00:49:18,519 --> 00:49:20,840
has the same essence as the Father, who is God.

759
00:49:21,199 --> 00:49:23,119
So he has the same divinity as the Father, and

760
00:49:23,159 --> 00:49:28,400
so so the trinity, you know, the Son is constantas

761
00:49:28,559 --> 00:49:31,800
with the Father because of his divinity, and he's consubstantial

762
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,480
with us because of his humanity. Right. So this is

763
00:49:35,599 --> 00:49:37,159
kind of I think, like the star, one of the

764
00:49:37,199 --> 00:49:40,440
starting points of the two nature christology of your stocks

765
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,440
church is essentially kind of like just a continuation of

766
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:47,480
this confession. And what's important is that, you know, we

767
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:53,199
usually natures are spoken of as you know, having common particulars, right,

768
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,599
Like there's the common particulars. You know, what's common to

769
00:49:56,679 --> 00:50:00,400
human beings is the human nature, right, But you can

770
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,039
kind of flip that around with Christ in a sense

771
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:08,199
to say that what's common between divinity and humanity, which

772
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,280
previously didn't exist, now exists within the hypostasis the person

773
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,440
of Christ, which is how he mediates the two natures,

774
00:50:16,519 --> 00:50:20,480
right Firstivity two five. I think that was the worst

775
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,719
that you know, Protestants use, you know, misunderstand, but that

776
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,519
verse is actually about Christ in his one hypostasis, mediating

777
00:50:29,159 --> 00:50:32,079
two natures right in his one person. So what's kind

778
00:50:32,119 --> 00:50:34,280
of this is one of the important aspects of the

779
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,840
incarnation within Orthodox Christology, and a lot of the debate

780
00:50:39,119 --> 00:50:41,679
is like sourced on that, right as the justification is

781
00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:43,719
to kind of explain its property.

782
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 2: Basically, also the scholarship, whether it's mcguggan's book on Cyril

783
00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:55,840
or whether it's Zach Kueber's book on the metaphysics Ancient

784
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:02,760
Christian metaphysics. Sat Sir role is getting his theology from

785
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:08,559
the Cappadocians. He follows their terminological usage of fusis, usia, hopistosis,

786
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,440
homo ussius, and idiom so yep.

787
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 5: And just to really continue on what you just said,

788
00:51:15,639 --> 00:51:19,679
my next point is a sincere new conceptually what we

789
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,960
need what was needed for a Cappudocean Christology. And you'll

790
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,519
see later down the road in these slides.

791
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,119
Speaker 2: This is important because I don't know, I mean to

792
00:51:30,159 --> 00:51:34,079
cut you off, but a lot of I've encountered several

793
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,840
of the Orientals for example, or even outside the Orientals,

794
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,199
people who are online and don't know anything. They don't

795
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:46,639
understand the reflexive relationship between nature and person. Fusis, whos

796
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,719
you know, et cetera, idiome, the way it's using the

797
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,639
Trinity and the way it's using Christology. So like like

798
00:51:53,679 --> 00:51:55,519
you said earlier, it doesn't make any sense to have

799
00:51:55,519 --> 00:51:58,800
two different metaphysics for the for the Trinity and another

800
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,519
one for the one for the Trinity, a different one

801
00:52:00,559 --> 00:52:03,280
for the for the incarnation, because the incarnation is obviously

802
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,199
going to be a revelation of the hypostasis, the second

803
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,679
hypostasis from the Trinity. So why would we have a

804
00:52:09,679 --> 00:52:13,159
different meaning of hypostasis if the second hypostasis is becoming

805
00:52:13,159 --> 00:52:13,920
an incarnate And.

806
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 5: It's issue that you bring this up, because it's funny

807
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,679
how the Church of These and I'm going to go

808
00:52:20,679 --> 00:52:23,480
into this in great detail when I really kind of

809
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,079
start hammering at the Church of the East, how they

810
00:52:26,119 --> 00:52:29,880
basically set up their tritology and then that has a

811
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,639
particular metaphysics, and then when they go into their Christology,

812
00:52:34,199 --> 00:52:38,119
different metaphysics, they realize, oh, we cannot go one to one.

813
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 2: Because yes, yeah, well, by the time of Severus, the

814
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,719
other side does the exact same thing. They argue against

815
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,159
reflexivity between the two yep.

816
00:52:48,679 --> 00:52:51,639
Speaker 5: And so this isn't a knock at Saint Cyril, but

817
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:56,840
it's unfortunate that there are times when he doesn't use

818
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,559
his terminology precisely. So he will bill use the same

819
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:06,440
word but be talking about different concepts when using it.

820
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 6: And this is.

821
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:13,280
Speaker 5: Where the quote mining starts to get exposed. When the

822
00:53:14,159 --> 00:53:19,079
Orientals will not be able to provide a coherent system

823
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:23,519
of thought with regards to Saint Cyril's usage. And so

824
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,119
this is where you have to really understand what is

825
00:53:26,519 --> 00:53:30,960
the idea, what is the paradigm that Saint Cyril is communicating,

826
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,880
and how is it in this particular context that his

827
00:53:35,039 --> 00:53:38,639
terminology is to be understood. Because at the heart of

828
00:53:38,639 --> 00:53:43,599
Saint Cyril, it is a Christology that emphasizes the unity

829
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:50,280
of Christ's person as subject of the incarnation. And this

830
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:56,320
is important, the unity of Christ as subject. He can't

831
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,800
be looked at as a product. He is a subject

832
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,119
of the incarnation, not a product of the incarnation with

833
00:54:04,159 --> 00:54:09,039
regards to his double consubstantiality. And so it's essential that

834
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:14,159
we understand what Saint Cyril is conveying rather than naively

835
00:54:14,199 --> 00:54:16,679
looking for just some formulaic keywords.

836
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 2: And that's reaffirmed at the Fifth Council. The Fifth Council

837
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,400
reaffirms the Curellian reading of Calcledon, which is crucial.

838
00:54:24,679 --> 00:54:27,760
Speaker 5: Right, and this is exactly where I lead it to

839
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,440
the next point. The Fifth a communical Council, solidifies Saint

840
00:54:31,519 --> 00:54:37,079
Cyril'schristology into a well formulated metaphysical framework and delineates how

841
00:54:37,119 --> 00:54:41,039
the fourth Ecumenical Council is to be understood. Okay, and

842
00:54:41,079 --> 00:54:45,239
what we see happening here, it's something similar to how

843
00:54:45,639 --> 00:54:51,880
Cappadocian metaphysics gives a more rigorous metaphysical expression to proper

844
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,039
trinitarian beliefs that were previously established at the first that

845
00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:59,320
Coumenical Council. So later councils are just basically following the

846
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:04,559
historical pattern of what we see how earlier councils are reclarified,

847
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:09,360
and it concritizes the Fifthe Chemical Council in particular concretizes

848
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,639
what constitutes correct orthodox theology.

849
00:55:12,679 --> 00:55:16,079
Speaker 3: Yeah. Can I add a very strong example of this, right,

850
00:55:16,079 --> 00:55:18,880
Like the second Echemical Council is exactly this. I mean,

851
00:55:19,159 --> 00:55:21,719
you see it even in the creed, right, the creed

852
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,599
of the Council of three twenty five and the creed

853
00:55:24,639 --> 00:55:26,599
of the Council of three eight one. Right, we consider

854
00:55:26,639 --> 00:55:29,079
the creed of three eight one to be the nice

855
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,760
in creed, even though the words are like, you know,

856
00:55:33,079 --> 00:55:36,199
they seem to be very different. But the Church understands

857
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,000
the creed of three eight to one to be the

858
00:55:38,199 --> 00:55:43,039
nicy in creed because it's the expression of the true

859
00:55:43,079 --> 00:55:49,760
fate that all Christians ought to say right in their prayers,

860
00:55:50,199 --> 00:55:53,400
in baptisms and the SERTs in their conversion. This is

861
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,320
what's like the statement that was to be accepted. But

862
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:01,119
again this creed is understood in a more proper way

863
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,519
in the Second Ecumitical Council. So we see this between

864
00:56:04,559 --> 00:56:07,679
the first and second, this kind of dynamic, right, and

865
00:56:09,159 --> 00:56:11,920
it's important that we don't misunderstand what's going on here.

866
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,760
This is not a developmental doctrine or anything like that. It

867
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:19,639
is again a better understanding and formulation of what already

868
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:25,159
exists there. It's basically, you know, varying better glasses to

869
00:56:25,199 --> 00:56:27,239
look at the same thing. You look at the same

870
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,880
thing with two different glasses. The better glasses will show

871
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,119
you greater details, but you're still looking at the same

872
00:56:34,119 --> 00:56:35,000
thing at the end of the day.

873
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:35,519
Speaker 6: Right.

874
00:56:35,599 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 3: So that's I think an important point that we need

875
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:38,320
to bear in mind.

876
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,519
Speaker 2: And getting the zach Kuber text out again for those

877
00:56:41,559 --> 00:56:44,599
that have it. The book is Rise of Christian Theology

878
00:56:44,679 --> 00:56:47,119
and the inn of Ancient Metaphysics, pages ninety four and

879
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:51,599
ninety five that really hammer home exactly what Kai is

880
00:56:51,639 --> 00:56:54,400
talking about. The stuff that's on the screen, and they

881
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,679
note that even with the Cappadocians themselves. Part of the

882
00:56:57,679 --> 00:57:01,440
reason perhaps that there was this ambiguity at times in

883
00:57:01,519 --> 00:57:05,280
serial was that there was also a lack of precision

884
00:57:05,519 --> 00:57:09,039
even in the terminology and usage of the Cappadocians. So

885
00:57:09,119 --> 00:57:12,599
Zach Kuber notes that the Cavedotionans, due to the theological

886
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:14,800
challenges that they were encountering in terms of the trinity

887
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:19,320
with Eunomianism, there was an emphasis on the universal to

888
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,079
the exclusion of the particular and how to individuate. Not

889
00:57:23,119 --> 00:57:25,400
to say that they were cretical or anything like that,

890
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,800
but they were focused on the Unomian issue and showing

891
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,800
the concept sentuality of the person's But there wasn't really

892
00:57:32,159 --> 00:57:37,760
a clarity yet for marking out precisely what individuated the

893
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:43,239
second person into a single body or a particular human individual.

894
00:57:43,639 --> 00:57:48,920
And so that is another example of the lack of

895
00:57:49,039 --> 00:57:53,760
clarity of what the classical theory of their usage of

896
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,920
universal particular in terms of Cappadoceans, they were limited by

897
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,800
this classical theory. In other words, decision had to be

898
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:05,800
done after the Cappadocians to make it more precise what

899
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:10,360
we mean, we mean by and in what status ontologically

900
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,280
the human nature that Christ assumed has in order for

901
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,119
him to be a truly individuated human nature. And so

902
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:22,920
I'll just really briefly, he says, any conceptualization of the

903
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:27,360
incarnation needed a notion of an individual nature, the particular

904
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,239
divinity of the second person, and the particular humanity the

905
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,079
man Jesus Christ, in order to expound what was meant

906
00:58:33,119 --> 00:58:36,320
by word became flesh. Not only was such an element

907
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:40,199
alien to the classical theory, its absence was entirely intentional

908
00:58:40,239 --> 00:58:43,719
and bound up with the alignment of Cappadocian philosophy to

909
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:47,039
Trinitarian doctrine. There was us no easy fix, and so

910
00:58:47,239 --> 00:58:51,360
this is why there's this limitation. You could say, not

911
00:58:51,559 --> 00:58:54,320
in the sense that the Church fathers are in error,

912
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:58,920
but when they're fighting a specific battle, the terminology and

913
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,639
the toolkit that they're used, saying might not be perfect

914
00:59:02,679 --> 00:59:04,679
for the next battle, is what I'm trying to say. So,

915
00:59:04,719 --> 00:59:08,159
for example, Athinacius is focusing and using its terminology to

916
00:59:08,159 --> 00:59:10,800
prove the divinity of the sun. We need more precision.

917
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,880
By the time of cave Doocians versus Eunomians, we need

918
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,559
more precision after the capp Docians as we get into

919
00:59:16,679 --> 00:59:17,599
Cyril and Calcedon.

920
00:59:21,199 --> 00:59:24,199
Speaker 6: Okay, moving on, all that's suck.

921
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 5: Here the gist of the Oriental oppositional approach, and you

922
00:59:32,519 --> 00:59:38,159
watch enough of their streams, you'll pick this up. What

923
00:59:38,199 --> 00:59:43,760
they'll do is they'll claim that later Orthodox fathers and

924
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:51,239
councils they developed new theology, which they'll call neo Chalcedonianism,

925
00:59:51,599 --> 00:59:56,960
and then that this new theology was then back projected

926
00:59:57,159 --> 01:00:03,679
anachronistically onto earlier fathers, namely Saint Cyril, and earlier councils,

927
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,800
namely the Third Ecumenical Council. And so they'll what the

928
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:12,199
Orientals will claim is that the way the Fifth Ecmmunical

929
01:00:12,239 --> 01:00:18,159
Council understands and clarifies the Fourth Ecmmenical Council is actually

930
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:22,519
different from how the Fourth Ecumenical Council was intended to

931
01:00:22,559 --> 01:00:27,559
be understood in its own right at the time. But

932
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:35,199
unfortunately for the Orientals, Saint Athanasius sets a precedent demonstrating

933
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:41,000
how earlier councils can indeed be clarified and cautions to

934
01:00:41,079 --> 01:00:49,440
be mindful of equivocating technical terms. So from the Oriental

935
01:00:49,599 --> 01:00:56,639
side you will see that fundamentally, they rely on equivocating feces.

936
01:00:56,719 --> 01:00:58,280
I'll just say peaces. That's way I say it in Greek.

937
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:02,639
I know jaesus fussis, which we'll just say nature. But

938
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:07,599
what exactly does nature mean? That's a later discussion. And hypostasis,

939
01:01:09,079 --> 01:01:11,840
and so when we look at it here, you have

940
01:01:12,199 --> 01:01:17,559
various combinations of how these terms can be understood in

941
01:01:17,599 --> 01:01:22,519
a metaphysical sense and how they relate to USA or essence.

942
01:01:23,719 --> 01:01:28,360
So you can have, for example, usa meaning the same

943
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,480
thing as feces, meaning the same thing as hypostasis, and

944
01:01:31,519 --> 01:01:34,800
you can take both nature and hypostasis to be either

945
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:39,880
both abstract or both concrete. Or you can have where

946
01:01:40,079 --> 01:01:44,320
usia means the same thing as feces, but it's differentiated

947
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:49,480
from hypostasis. You can look at like nature being an abstractypostasis.

948
01:01:49,679 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 2: That's a not equal too. It's really small. But the

949
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,199
second one for those that can't see, it's a not

950
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:55,719
equal to.

951
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:59,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, sorry, it may be a little bit difficult. Yeah,

952
01:01:59,159 --> 01:02:01,880
it's the first one equal, then it's not equal. And

953
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,360
then you can have where USA is not equal to feces.

954
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:10,000
So there's a distinction between USA and feces. But feces

955
01:02:10,079 --> 01:02:14,400
is basically taken as synonymous to hypostasis, but you can

956
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,679
also look at nature and hypostasies being concrete. So these

957
01:02:17,679 --> 01:02:21,239
are just examples. This is just a way of demonstrating

958
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,840
how you can have the same three terms, but depending

959
01:02:26,039 --> 01:02:32,719
on your particular metaphysical paradigm can mean completely different things,

960
01:02:33,599 --> 01:02:37,480
and not just distinguishing between each other, but whether you're

961
01:02:37,559 --> 01:02:41,079
talking about certain things that are abstract or things that

962
01:02:41,119 --> 01:02:49,519
are particular, and what becomes very important to highlight and

963
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:53,840
a lot of people who do not spend the time

964
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:59,760
to actually dive into learning metaphysics, to learn the deeper

965
01:03:00,239 --> 01:03:08,559
level argumentations and systems. They're basically cheerleaders. They don't understand

966
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:17,679
these deeper ideas, these paradigms. The orientals really do not

967
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:22,840
understand the theology and the metaphysical ideas, and they're just

968
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:30,239
doing keyword searches and it's embarrassing to the point where

969
01:03:30,719 --> 01:03:35,679
they're basically at the same level as Anthony Rogers. If

970
01:03:35,679 --> 01:03:40,039
you remember from a couple of years ago, when Anthony

971
01:03:40,159 --> 01:03:44,119
Rogers he did his control left search of the church

972
01:03:44,199 --> 01:03:50,880
fathers to find every single instance of sola fide, and

973
01:03:52,159 --> 01:03:57,480
he ended up not realizing and he quoted Pallagious in

974
01:03:57,639 --> 01:04:01,920
support of sola fide. He thought it was Saint Jerome.

975
01:04:02,239 --> 01:04:05,440
He put up the quote of Saint Jerome speaking about

976
01:04:05,679 --> 01:04:06,960
sola fide.

977
01:04:07,039 --> 01:04:09,039
Speaker 6: There you go. You have sola.

978
01:04:08,679 --> 01:04:12,119
Speaker 5: Fide taught by the Church fathers as if they were

979
01:04:12,159 --> 01:04:18,079
promoting the Reformation doctrine of sola fide. Now, anybody who

980
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:25,960
follows the theology of the Reformation, Pelagius is anathema to

981
01:04:26,039 --> 01:04:32,440
the Reformers, like you cannot be as opposed to the

982
01:04:32,519 --> 01:04:39,440
doctrine of sola fide anymore than Pelagius. And yet Anthony Rogers,

983
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:46,519
not understanding who he was quoting, quoted Pelagius because Pelagius

984
01:04:47,199 --> 01:04:52,079
does you sola fide, and he's got no problem using

985
01:04:52,119 --> 01:04:58,440
sola fide. His metaphysics has the notion of sola fide.

986
01:05:00,079 --> 01:05:05,840
It's not the Reformation understanding. It's a completely different metaphysical

987
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,800
understanding that Pelagius has of sola fide to what the

988
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:13,920
Reformers taught. And this is exactly what you see happening

989
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:18,920
with the Orientals and their quote mining is it's just

990
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:27,639
keyword searches, but the average viewer does not know the

991
01:05:27,679 --> 01:05:32,039
deeper understandings in terms of the metaphysical paradigms to basically

992
01:05:32,119 --> 01:05:36,039
call out the Orientals. So they see the Orientals presenting

993
01:05:36,119 --> 01:05:40,280
a quote and oh, yes, that's right, Chalcedon is wrong

994
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:44,639
because it contradicts what Saint Cyril says. Okay, well, give

995
01:05:44,719 --> 01:05:49,199
me an actual explanation what Saint Cyril means. And by explanation,

996
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:53,599
I don't mean ramble on what you think Saint Cyril means.

997
01:05:54,159 --> 01:05:58,639
What I mean is is give a proper metaphysical paradigm

998
01:05:59,039 --> 01:06:04,480
that has ex planatory power from Saint Cyril at his triadology,

999
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:10,400
his Christology, and his souteriology. That's how I want you

1000
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,320
to present to meet the quotes. And you're going to

1001
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,199
see by the end of this series, when we dissect

1002
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:21,480
the Orientals quotes that they are, they fail miserably in

1003
01:06:21,599 --> 01:06:26,119
being able to construct a coherent paradigm. So I'm going

1004
01:06:26,199 --> 01:06:28,079
to move on now unless you guys have anything else

1005
01:06:28,119 --> 01:06:32,000
you want to add. Okay, So getting to the point

1006
01:06:32,039 --> 01:06:34,960
that Jay had mentioned, when you look at the conciliar

1007
01:06:35,039 --> 01:06:37,840
creeds of three twenty five and three eighty one, so

1008
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,440
the original nice indeed, but those who say there was

1009
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,039
a time when he was not and he was not

1010
01:06:44,159 --> 01:06:47,039
before he was made, and he was made out of nothing,

1011
01:06:47,519 --> 01:06:51,920
or he is of another substance epostasios or essence who

1012
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:56,320
see us. So the original creed of three twenty five

1013
01:06:57,119 --> 01:07:03,880
recognizes hypostass and so sia can be used synonymously. Okay,

1014
01:07:04,239 --> 01:07:08,159
But the Kappadocians, who were instrumental in regards to the

1015
01:07:08,199 --> 01:07:11,079
Creed of three eighty one from the Second Ecumenical Council,

1016
01:07:11,559 --> 01:07:16,519
distinguished hypostasis and usia. You start seeing a shift in

1017
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:21,679
how hypostasis now takes on a more refined, more precise meaning,

1018
01:07:22,559 --> 01:07:24,880
and not just pointing to what Jay had said earlier.

1019
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:28,599
This is a little bit of a lengthy quote, this

1020
01:07:28,679 --> 01:07:31,599
one I will read. I do apologize if you can't

1021
01:07:33,159 --> 01:07:39,000
make it all out because of the small font. So

1022
01:07:39,239 --> 01:07:44,199
Saint Athanasius was present at the First Ecumenical Council, and

1023
01:07:44,239 --> 01:07:47,000
he was present as a deacon and is believed to

1024
01:07:47,159 --> 01:07:53,159
have written its creed. Okay, And though hypostasis and essence

1025
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:58,559
were used synonymously, they could also be distinguished following a

1026
01:07:59,039 --> 01:08:05,119
simplistic organist understanding. Now be careful here, I'm not saying

1027
01:08:05,639 --> 01:08:10,400
that it lifted originism. I'm just saying is that there

1028
01:08:10,519 --> 01:08:12,960
is and I'll show you in a slide coming up

1029
01:08:13,519 --> 01:08:18,640
what the fundamental origins that usage of hypostasis is in

1030
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:22,239
just in as simplistic way, that this is how hypostasis

1031
01:08:22,239 --> 01:08:24,920
comes to be understood. And in his tone to the

1032
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:30,439
Antiochians or Antiochians, Saint Anthonysius writes not to bicker over

1033
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:41,159
the term hypostasis if the underlying idea is conciliar, and

1034
01:08:41,199 --> 01:08:44,960
this is what he says. Having accepted, then these men's

1035
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:49,680
interpretation and defense of their language, we made enquiry of

1036
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:55,359
those blamed by them for speaking of one subsistence mean ipostasin,

1037
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:59,119
whether they use the expression in the sense of Sabelius

1038
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:01,880
to the negation of the Son and the Holy Spirit,

1039
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:07,279
or as though the Son were non substantial a musio ontos,

1040
01:09:09,119 --> 01:09:14,399
or the Holy Spirit impersonal. Okay, But they, in their

1041
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:18,039
turn assured us that they neither meant this nor had

1042
01:09:18,079 --> 01:09:23,880
ever held it. But we use the word subsistence impostasin,

1043
01:09:24,399 --> 01:09:29,880
thinking it the same thing to say subsistence or essence.

1044
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,560
But we hold that there is one because the Son

1045
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:39,119
is of the essence of the Father husi Us and

1046
01:09:39,159 --> 01:09:42,199
because of the identity of nature feesales.

1047
01:09:44,039 --> 01:09:44,800
Speaker 6: So you see.

1048
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:50,399
Speaker 5: This this kind of synonymity between Feces and Usiah. For

1049
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:52,920
we believe that there is one Godhead and that it

1050
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:58,319
has one nature. So the Godhead has one nature Fecin.

1051
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:01,520
And this is going to be important because ath I'm

1052
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:04,439
saying is that if the godad has one nature and

1053
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:10,039
Christ has one nature, and part of Christ's one nature

1054
01:10:10,239 --> 01:10:13,680
is humanity, does that mean the entire Godhead is now

1055
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,960
of humanity, so that the Father is of a humanity

1056
01:10:18,119 --> 01:10:20,720
and the Holy Spirit is of a humanity. You see

1057
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:24,840
the problems when you start equivocating on terms, and not

1058
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:27,319
that there is one nature of the Father, from which

1059
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:30,880
that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit are distinct. Well,

1060
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:35,079
thereupon they who had been blamed for saying there were

1061
01:10:35,159 --> 01:10:39,520
three subsistences agreed with the others, while those who had

1062
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:42,960
spoken of one essence also confessed the doctrine of the

1063
01:10:43,039 --> 01:10:47,680
former as interpreted by them and by both sides. Arius

1064
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:52,039
was anathematized as an adversary of Christ, and Sibelius and

1065
01:10:52,039 --> 01:10:56,399
Paul of Samosata as impious men, and Valentinus and Bacilities

1066
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:59,560
as aliens from the truth in Manichaeus as an inventor

1067
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:03,159
of mishion, and all by God's grace, and after the

1068
01:11:03,159 --> 01:11:06,880
above explanations, agree together that the faith confessed by the

1069
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:11,239
fathers at Nicea is better than the said phrases, and

1070
01:11:11,279 --> 01:11:13,520
that for the future they would prefer to be content

1071
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:19,159
to use its language. So that's mouthful here. In other words,

1072
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:25,960
if by one hypostasis is meant that the Father, the Son,

1073
01:11:26,199 --> 01:11:30,640
and the Holy Spirit are of the same essence, Homousios

1074
01:11:32,319 --> 01:11:35,960
say nathan Asius is saying, that was perfectly fine. If

1075
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,680
by three hypostases is meant that the Father, the Son,

1076
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:42,600
and the Holy Spirit are distinct but inseparable ontologies, then

1077
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:47,680
it was also perfectly fine. If by one hypostasis, on

1078
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:49,199
the other hand, is meant that the Father, the Son,

1079
01:11:49,239 --> 01:11:53,600
and the Holy Spirit are only a single ontology, then

1080
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:58,279
that was not fine because that's modalism. And if by

1081
01:11:58,359 --> 01:12:03,399
three hypostases is meant thread different essences, then that too

1082
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:10,199
was not fine because that is arianism. So Saint Athanasius

1083
01:12:10,319 --> 01:12:14,239
is very clear in his tone that he's saying to

1084
01:12:14,279 --> 01:12:20,159
the people, don't get hung up on formulaic keywords. You

1085
01:12:20,319 --> 01:12:24,319
have to understand the concepts being conveyed. You have to

1086
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:30,239
understand the underlying metaphysics, because if it doesn't matter the

1087
01:12:30,319 --> 01:12:33,479
term that you're using, as long as you are not

1088
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:38,600
professing modalism. Okay, as long as you're not professing arianism.

1089
01:12:39,319 --> 01:12:43,840
Just understand what is actually being communicated when you use

1090
01:12:44,159 --> 01:12:49,319
your particular word. And Saint Athanasius is the predecessor to

1091
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:56,880
Saint Cyril, and so being in that lineage, Saint Cyril

1092
01:12:57,039 --> 01:13:03,000
is very much aware of the thrust that St Athanasius

1093
01:13:03,239 --> 01:13:11,439
is promoting with regards to the usage in the terminology. Now,

1094
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:17,720
this is where the Orientals get themselves into a into

1095
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:25,159
a bind. Basically, So, there was an agreed statement by

1096
01:13:25,159 --> 01:13:28,800
the Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox

1097
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:32,439
Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church.

1098
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:36,079
Speaker 6: And in that agreement.

1099
01:13:37,279 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 5: It says the Orthodox agree that the Oriental Orthodox will

1100
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:48,039
continue to maintain their traditions Cyrillian terminology of one nature

1101
01:13:48,039 --> 01:13:53,039
of the incarnate Logos since they acknowledge the double consubstantiality

1102
01:13:53,039 --> 01:13:57,039
of the logos, which utikis denied. Now, this is very

1103
01:13:57,079 --> 01:14:04,600
important that phrase. We allow that phrase, and we promote

1104
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:11,399
double consubstantiality. What the Orthodox position here is saying is

1105
01:14:12,039 --> 01:14:18,159
we recognize that the Oriental position is claiming to promote

1106
01:14:18,159 --> 01:14:24,079
double consubstantiality. But that doesn't necessarily mean that's what their

1107
01:14:24,119 --> 01:14:27,439
metaphysics implies. We just we understand that's what they're saying.

1108
01:14:28,119 --> 01:14:31,920
So if by using that phrase and saying you mean

1109
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:36,439
double consubstantiality, which your tickies denied, okay, well grant you that,

1110
01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:38,239
but we're not saying that you guys are actually correct

1111
01:14:38,279 --> 01:14:41,960
in holding that position. But now here's the problem for

1112
01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:46,600
the Orientals, because they say that the Orthodox also use

1113
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:54,159
this terminology. The Oriental Orthodox agree that the Orthodox are

1114
01:14:54,399 --> 01:14:59,039
justified in their use of the two nature's formula. Oh

1115
01:14:59,159 --> 01:15:04,600
you have a problem. You're okay with us using the

1116
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:09,239
two nature's formula since they acknowledge that the distinction is

1117
01:15:09,279 --> 01:15:14,640
in quote unquote thought alone. Cyril interpreted incorrectly this use

1118
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:17,760
in his letter to John of Antioch and his letters

1119
01:15:18,159 --> 01:15:22,640
to a Casius of Melatine, to eflogists and to succesensus.

1120
01:15:25,159 --> 01:15:33,279
So basically, according to the Orientals themselves, whether they're understanding

1121
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:38,960
of the Orthodox position is accurate, they're admitting that the

1122
01:15:39,119 --> 01:15:43,760
Orthodox position is not an historian Okay, So all of

1123
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:48,920
you apologists, all of you little cheerleaders for the morons

1124
01:15:49,199 --> 01:15:54,880
from the Oriental side that like to attack Orthodoxy. Orientals

1125
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:59,680
who claim that Orthodoxy teaches a Nestorianism do so contrary

1126
01:16:00,119 --> 01:16:05,800
the official position of their own Council of Churches. Okay,

1127
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:12,279
you have a problem. You're just basically blabbering online and

1128
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:17,560
not wanting to address the what your own councils are

1129
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:22,039
basically saying about the Orthodox that we're not an historian.

1130
01:16:23,199 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 3: And the thing I'd like to add is that if

1131
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:31,680
you were justified all along, then the whole schism was

1132
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:34,560
for nothing. From their perspective, That's another thing. It's like

1133
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:37,279
there's no need, there's no reason then, and it's not

1134
01:16:37,279 --> 01:16:39,239
not even just like, oh, you know, we except cocoadil

1135
01:16:39,319 --> 01:16:41,479
because of what not, Because it's not even just that.

1136
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:44,600
It's kind of like the reason why this happened in

1137
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:46,600
the first place is like, if you look at it

1138
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:49,880
down in history is essentially you know, you had a

1139
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,560
second council of emphasis in four forty nine. This was

1140
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:56,680
the monopside Robert synod Ver they defended uti kis right. Now,

1141
01:16:57,119 --> 01:17:00,520
monopsides will say they will distance themselves from right, but

1142
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:04,359
historically this is kind of how things really eccleasively started. Utikis.

1143
01:17:04,359 --> 01:17:07,600
For those who don't know I mean he's he well,

1144
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:10,800
he pretty much denied that Christ was consistantial to human

1145
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:13,760
beings except for the Virgin Mary, which is like very strange,

1146
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:16,760
but that's kind of something that he said, right, So

1147
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:20,640
he denied Christ was consubstantial with human beings, and he

1148
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:25,039
was defended, right, he was vindicated in the second emphasis.

1149
01:17:25,079 --> 01:17:28,800
And this is what the Coustle of Kalkadont is revoking. Right,

1150
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:32,359
So it's revoking this robber synod in an ecclesial way,

1151
01:17:33,359 --> 01:17:37,000
and it's usage of the two natures formula in order

1152
01:17:37,039 --> 01:17:40,800
to refute Utikis. So this specific target is Utikis is

1153
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:47,079
Utikian Christology. Okay, that's the specific primary target. That's how

1154
01:17:47,319 --> 01:17:50,159
this all began. So if we were justified all along,

1155
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:52,359
like to me, this kind of just says that, you know,

1156
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:55,119
it's our bad kind of like Orientals like in this

1157
01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:59,039
you know commission saying, oh, you know, all the stuff

1158
01:17:59,079 --> 01:18:01,880
that happened like between us for a thousand and six

1159
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:04,920
hundred years all or fault, sorry it happened. That's kind

1160
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:07,079
of how Obviously I don't think that's kind of what

1161
01:18:07,119 --> 01:18:10,720
they were thinking, but that's how it actually like seems

1162
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:12,960
like what they're actually saying because again, if you look

1163
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:17,239
at it from history, that's where the problem is, right,

1164
01:18:17,319 --> 01:18:20,479
Like historically, that's the source of the problems, is like the

1165
01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:24,439
usage of this formula. And even like historically you had

1166
01:18:25,279 --> 01:18:28,800
like Monophasites who were saying, you know, there's a correct

1167
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:32,479
interpretation of the into Nature's formula, getting like very like

1168
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:38,159
very vilent pushback from the Oriental Church, like they're saying, no,

1169
01:18:38,279 --> 01:18:42,319
that's not true, that's completely unacceptable. There's no acceptable usage

1170
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:46,920
of this formula. That has been the position until I

1171
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:47,760
guess very recently.

1172
01:18:48,159 --> 01:18:48,359
Speaker 2: Right.

1173
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:51,159
Speaker 3: So that's also another thing that is important to point

1174
01:18:51,199 --> 01:18:53,279
out is that like this is that, like as Kai

1175
01:18:53,359 --> 01:18:55,800
points out, I mean, this is I think a very

1176
01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:58,960
strange admission, Like if you look at the history, it's

1177
01:18:59,039 --> 01:19:01,319
kind of again admission of like you were wrong all along,

1178
01:19:02,119 --> 01:19:06,000
just okay, you know, yeah you were That's kind of

1179
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:07,319
the point, you know.

1180
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:08,039
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1181
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:11,159
Speaker 5: And just my last point that I have on the slide,

1182
01:19:11,199 --> 01:19:16,920
I think when they make this admission, there's something that

1183
01:19:17,039 --> 01:19:24,319
completely undermines the modern Oriental blabber online trying to portray

1184
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:30,560
Chalcedon as Nestorian. Because if the Oriental, if the Council

1185
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:36,359
of Oriental churches are saying that we don't hold to Nestorianism.

1186
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:41,520
Then that de facto means that Charlecedon does not inherently

1187
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:46,279
teach Nestorianism. You have a problem there. And what is

1188
01:19:46,319 --> 01:19:51,760
the best analogy to understand this is Arius uses scripture

1189
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:58,920
to justify Arianism, like his ontological subordination. But just because

1190
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:04,039
he uses scripture, that doesn't mean that scripture inherently teaches it.

1191
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:11,560
There's a way to exegute scripture that will exclude arianism,

1192
01:20:12,199 --> 01:20:16,560
though scripture can be used in certain ways with its

1193
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:21,520
language to put forward an Aryan doctrine. And so this

1194
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:27,199
is very important when you're looking at Chalcedon. Is that

1195
01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:34,760
superficially when you're reading Chalcedon, does it read Nestorian or

1196
01:20:35,119 --> 01:20:40,439
even if it does read Nestorian, is there an alternate understanding?

1197
01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:43,479
And I'm going to have it in a future slide

1198
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:45,760
where I'm going to come circle back to Saint Cyril.

1199
01:20:46,359 --> 01:20:52,119
But Saint Cyril writes in his letter to Nestorius to

1200
01:20:52,199 --> 01:20:58,479
this effect, and he's saying, Mystorius, it doesn't matter that

1201
01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:01,920
you're reciting the exauls exact same words of the creed

1202
01:21:02,079 --> 01:21:10,119
as us. If the way you're understanding that creed is incorrect. Okay.

1203
01:21:10,359 --> 01:21:15,680
So the mere presence of those words, that sentence structures,

1204
01:21:16,159 --> 01:21:21,079
and what you're reading, if you're not reading it correctly,

1205
01:21:22,439 --> 01:21:26,800
then you have a problem. And it's just exactly like

1206
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:29,760
when we get into the polemics with for example, Muslims

1207
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:36,520
or Protestants in exegeting scripture. Well, I don't care what

1208
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:39,760
your plain face reading is. I'm going to follow the

1209
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:44,000
Church fathers how they're telling us by church tradition that

1210
01:21:44,039 --> 01:21:45,920
we need to exegute these passages.

1211
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:47,239
Speaker 6: Okay.

1212
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:50,039
Speaker 5: And so the fact that you're going to just put

1213
01:21:50,119 --> 01:21:52,239
up some slides and say, oh, this is what the

1214
01:21:52,279 --> 01:21:55,960
Council of Chalcedon said, and that's an historian, well that's

1215
01:21:56,039 --> 01:22:00,600
your reading. You're reading the historianism into that. That doesn't

1216
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:04,880
mean that it's an exclusive Nestorian reading. Is there a

1217
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:09,640
way that we can understand that that staves off Nestorianism?

1218
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,680
And this is this basic admission by your own Council

1219
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:24,279
of Churches that the Calcidon Council is not inherently teaching Nestorianism.

1220
01:22:24,399 --> 01:22:27,760
Speaker 2: I would like to add to that a key element

1221
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:34,119
that prepares the way for the Chalcedonian disputes is the

1222
01:22:34,119 --> 01:22:39,239
Apollinarian dispute, and Apollinaris makes a very similar mistake to

1223
01:22:40,119 --> 01:22:43,520
what would later be in our view i'm monophsite mistakes.

1224
01:22:44,239 --> 01:22:47,079
And so, for example, in his case, he seems to

1225
01:22:47,119 --> 01:22:51,560
take fusis to mean pro sipon, and so Christ is

1226
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:55,439
a as a single incarnate nature, which he uses the

1227
01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:59,800
analogy of a mule, which is a crossbreed, and so

1228
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:06,479
it's neither it's it's it's a mixed tertion quid. And

1229
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:09,680
this is due to again not just his assuming that

1230
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:13,039
the word fusus means a person or nature is a person,

1231
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:18,239
but he also took the property of the rational soul

1232
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:21,239
to be the thing that picks out the prose upon

1233
01:23:21,399 --> 01:23:24,199
or to pick out a subject. And so for him,

1234
01:23:24,279 --> 01:23:28,640
if he wanted to combat what would become the antia

1235
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:31,479
quene and then a later error, the later than a

1236
01:23:31,479 --> 01:23:34,039
Storian error, he thought the way to do that would

1237
01:23:34,079 --> 01:23:38,159
be to show that if Christ is the logos, then

1238
01:23:38,479 --> 01:23:42,479
if he removes the notion of any kind of human subject,

1239
01:23:42,640 --> 01:23:46,039
he could do that by getting rid of the rational soul.

1240
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:48,760
And so there is no rational soul in a human

1241
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:51,560
in the human person of Christ, or in this human

1242
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:54,000
the human nature of Christ, because what picks out a

1243
01:23:54,079 --> 01:23:57,880
human person is the soul, So for him, rational soul

1244
01:23:58,079 --> 01:24:01,000
is the equivalent of the subject, and what he's doing

1245
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:04,239
there is that he's mistaking a property of the nature

1246
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:08,359
for what picks out the person or the subject. So

1247
01:24:09,159 --> 01:24:11,920
we can prove that there's a distinction between nature and person,

1248
01:24:12,119 --> 01:24:17,119
not just in Trinitarian theology, but also in the rejection

1249
01:24:17,199 --> 01:24:20,520
of the Apollinarian error, because it is precisely premised on

1250
01:24:21,439 --> 01:24:25,319
another type of confusing confusion, confusing a property of nature

1251
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:28,359
for the subject or for the hypostasis, particularly in this

1252
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:33,800
case in the incarnation. So this mistake gets then propounded

1253
01:24:34,239 --> 01:24:38,079
again later by Menophosites making a very similar mistake. I'm

1254
01:24:38,119 --> 01:24:40,560
not saying they're making the exact same mistake, but they're

1255
01:24:40,560 --> 01:24:53,800
making very similar mistakes that are echoed after the Apollinarian dispute.

1256
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:57,600
Speaker 5: The creed confessed at Chalcedon. So this is basically an

1257
01:24:57,600 --> 01:25:05,800
elaboration on the previously established creeds that further kind of

1258
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:11,880
clarifies or makes more specific the correct understanding of what

1259
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:16,800
constitutes correct expression of the faith. And this is very

1260
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:22,960
important because there's one there's one word that makes the

1261
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:29,520
whole difference in the oriental position. Following. Therefore, the Holy Fathers,

1262
01:25:29,640 --> 01:25:32,359
we all in harmony teach confession of one and the

1263
01:25:32,399 --> 01:25:36,520
same son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead,

1264
01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:39,880
and the same perfect in manhood, truly God, and the

1265
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:43,880
same truly man of a rational soul and body, consubstantial

1266
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:46,079
with the Father in respect of the Godhead, and the

1267
01:25:46,119 --> 01:25:48,880
same consubstantial with us in respect of the manhood.

1268
01:25:49,039 --> 01:25:51,720
Speaker 2: Hey guy, could I break in one point? I just

1269
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:55,239
remembered something. I don't mean to be breaking this up,

1270
01:25:55,279 --> 01:25:58,760
but this is a really important point that actually backs

1271
01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:02,079
up something you said earlier. One of the most famous

1272
01:26:02,079 --> 01:26:06,399
phrases from this period is the idea that he's consubstantial

1273
01:26:06,439 --> 01:26:10,439
with the Father and consubstantial with us, believe it or not,

1274
01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:13,680
even though his metaphysics was all jacked up. That's actually

1275
01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:19,760
in a Pollinarian phrase. So Pollinaris utilized this popular catchphrase

1276
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:23,119
that could be understood in different ways, but it became

1277
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:27,159
an Orthodox catchphrase that I think most everybody would agree with.

1278
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:31,720
What you see is that a Pollinarius had his paradigm

1279
01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:35,239
which he attached an incorrect meaning to. The Orthodox can

1280
01:26:35,239 --> 01:26:37,960
take that same catchphrase and give it a correct meaning.

1281
01:26:38,359 --> 01:26:42,000
And earlier you had cited a text from Athanasius saying, look,

1282
01:26:42,079 --> 01:26:45,319
let's not get hung up on the actual linguistic symbols.

1283
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:48,439
If we mean the same thing, that's what matters. There's

1284
01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:50,199
a great quote I forget exactly where it is, but

1285
01:26:50,239 --> 01:26:53,119
Saint Jerome says something very similar where he says the

1286
01:26:53,439 --> 01:26:57,159
words themselves don't matter. It's what the words signify. If

1287
01:26:57,159 --> 01:26:59,199
we have the same meaning, that's what counts. And that

1288
01:26:59,239 --> 01:27:02,439
has to be stressed because so many errors on the

1289
01:27:02,439 --> 01:27:06,760
part of Orientals is almost always you're not using this

1290
01:27:06,880 --> 01:27:09,000
right word that we think is the only possible word

1291
01:27:09,039 --> 01:27:09,359
to use.

1292
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:13,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's almost like they'll die for mea feces. And

1293
01:27:13,479 --> 01:27:15,279
then when you ask them, well, what do you mean

1294
01:27:15,279 --> 01:27:16,000
by meophesis?

1295
01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:16,760
Speaker 6: Oh, I don't know.

1296
01:27:17,079 --> 01:27:19,840
Speaker 5: It's like he said it, so we must uphold it.

1297
01:27:19,880 --> 01:27:23,079
Speaker 2: But somebody's saying that I'm lying in the chat. It's hiss.

1298
01:27:23,079 --> 01:27:26,600
On page ninety eight of zach kuber It specifically says

1299
01:27:27,319 --> 01:27:30,039
Paulinaris is the pioneer to use the term of the

1300
01:27:30,079 --> 01:27:34,319
double hoomausion. The phraseology that he uses quote Christ is

1301
01:27:34,359 --> 01:27:36,920
consupstential with the father according to divinity, and consistential with

1302
01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:40,560
us according to humanity, and so later he says this

1303
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:44,399
is on several occasions a paulin Aaras said the logos

1304
01:27:44,479 --> 01:27:48,439
took flesh constantential with us, which is from the Virgin Mary,

1305
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:52,279
but the other nature he got consistential with his father.

1306
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:55,840
Now that's again page ninety eight of zach Kuber. It's

1307
01:27:55,880 --> 01:27:58,880
cited multiple times literally from a Pollinaris. It's from his

1308
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:05,840
one f R one thirteen, Tone two sixty two, fr

1309
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:09,279
one sixty one. Those are the actual references. So I'm

1310
01:28:09,319 --> 01:28:11,159
not I'm not making this so I don't know people

1311
01:28:11,319 --> 01:28:13,119
in the chat thing. I wouldn't no, But.

1312
01:28:13,039 --> 01:28:16,039
Speaker 5: You're giving AMMO. You're giving AML to the Orientals. Now

1313
01:28:16,039 --> 01:28:18,000
they're going to make a stream to say that CalCon

1314
01:28:18,119 --> 01:28:18,880
is a Pollinarian.

1315
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:19,520
Speaker 6: Didn't you know?

1316
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:23,000
Speaker 2: This is phage ninety eight of zach Ker. You can

1317
01:28:23,039 --> 01:28:25,319
go read it yourself, right. But the reason I say

1318
01:28:25,319 --> 01:28:29,279
that is that it backs up Kay's point about when

1319
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:33,439
the Paulinaris said that, he apparently meant, according to page

1320
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:38,680
ninety eight, a tertion quid a hybrid. But the phraseology

1321
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:41,039
itself can be read in Orthodoxy. That's the point we're.

1322
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:42,199
Speaker 6: Sing and we're going to see that.

1323
01:28:42,239 --> 01:28:44,920
Speaker 5: We're going to see exactly how the Orthodox read it

1324
01:28:44,960 --> 01:28:47,479
in great detail. And just to continue on the quote

1325
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:50,119
and the same in the last days for us and

1326
01:28:50,159 --> 01:28:52,239
for our solvation of the Virgin Mary. The tale tokus

1327
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:55,800
in respect of the manhood one and the same Christ, Son,

1328
01:28:56,239 --> 01:29:02,640
Lord only Begotten. Now, the next phrase is key acknowledged

1329
01:29:03,119 --> 01:29:10,039
in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation, the

1330
01:29:10,079 --> 01:29:13,000
difference of the nature's being in no way destroyed by

1331
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:16,640
the union, but rather the distinctive character of each nature

1332
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:22,239
being preserved and coming together into one person and one hypostasis,

1333
01:29:23,239 --> 01:29:27,680
not parted or divided into two persons, but one and

1334
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:33,399
the same Son, only begotten God word, Lord Jesus Christ,

1335
01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:36,079
even as the prophets from of old and Jesus Christ

1336
01:29:36,399 --> 01:29:38,560
taught us about him, and the symbol of the fathers

1337
01:29:38,600 --> 01:29:39,760
has handed down to us.

1338
01:29:40,199 --> 01:29:44,439
Speaker 2: I don't mean to interrite again, but there's a an

1339
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:46,319
offsite going crazy in the chat, and I want to

1340
01:29:46,359 --> 01:29:48,880
address because it's something I wanted to address that you said,

1341
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:53,840
which is that they think that when it says, can

1342
01:29:53,880 --> 01:29:57,560
be distinguished only in thought, that like other people who

1343
01:29:57,600 --> 01:30:00,319
make the same mistake katapanoya, Like that means means that

1344
01:30:00,359 --> 01:30:04,720
it also cannot be that it's also necessarily not metaphysically distinct,

1345
01:30:05,079 --> 01:30:09,880
because they think distinction entails necessarily composition or division or separation.

1346
01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:13,960
So that's just simply not true. The same terminology by

1347
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:17,720
the cappitdotionans is used of the distinction between the persons

1348
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:20,039
and the Trinity and between the persons of the Trinity

1349
01:30:20,079 --> 01:30:22,640
and the nature of the Godhead. And so they will

1350
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:26,600
say it's caught up anoia. Oh does that mean that

1351
01:30:26,720 --> 01:30:29,800
the persons are only mentally distinct and not really distinct,

1352
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:32,279
so we don't have a real trinity. So this is

1353
01:30:32,399 --> 01:30:35,000
a really fundamental mistake that people are making.

1354
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:38,640
Speaker 3: And yeah, I see this. I see this mistake being

1355
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:40,640
made so many times. So like thank you for bringing

1356
01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:42,600
that up, because like as you said, like Saint Carrol

1357
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:46,760
says this, the Capitolcians say this, like if you have

1358
01:30:46,800 --> 01:30:50,720
many different church flot is making a distinction cut epinoya

1359
01:30:51,960 --> 01:30:54,399
for the Trinity and for the two natures of Christ.

1360
01:30:55,000 --> 01:31:01,039
So if it just meant like a virtualtomistic distinction, then

1361
01:31:01,479 --> 01:31:04,199
it will you know, then the persons of the Trinity

1362
01:31:04,239 --> 01:31:08,000
will be virtually distinct. I mean not even Thomas believe that.

1363
01:31:08,079 --> 01:31:10,479
Even Thomas will say the persons are really distinct, right,

1364
01:31:10,479 --> 01:31:13,800
But this is a terminology being used, and it's important

1365
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:16,960
to understand, like what's the connection right again? You know,

1366
01:31:17,119 --> 01:31:19,319
if you read this term and you just you know,

1367
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:22,039
cite it and paste it and spam it, you know,

1368
01:31:22,239 --> 01:31:23,760
you're not the smartest guy in the room. Like you

1369
01:31:24,079 --> 01:31:28,000
didn't find something that's secret and that no one else found.

1370
01:31:28,840 --> 01:31:31,800
It's important to understand the concept of counting in the

1371
01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:33,880
ancient world. This is something you talked about, Jane, like

1372
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:36,319
a lot of your streams, especially with doctor bo Branson, right,

1373
01:31:36,399 --> 01:31:40,600
the tear of counting by division. Right. So the reason

1374
01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:44,359
why this distinction being made and taught is an important

1375
01:31:44,359 --> 01:31:47,079
point that is being made, which, by the way, the

1376
01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:50,159
Calcadonian Creed makes this point right, it used the term

1377
01:31:50,640 --> 01:31:54,560
zumenon acknowledged is how it's translated, that's mentally apprehended, that's

1378
01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:57,039
what it means. And the reason why this is important

1379
01:31:57,319 --> 01:32:00,319
is because they're trying to make the point by saying, Look,

1380
01:32:00,319 --> 01:32:03,760
you know when me say two, right, we are speaking

1381
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:07,239
of something you know, really distinct. The two natures are

1382
01:32:07,319 --> 01:32:10,800
really distinct in Christ. But let me say, speak of two,

1383
01:32:11,159 --> 01:32:12,359
we do not divide them.

1384
01:32:12,359 --> 01:32:16,439
Speaker 2: In reality, they think that speak they think that if

1385
01:32:16,479 --> 01:32:20,079
you don't say it's purely conceptual, then it necessarily means

1386
01:32:20,079 --> 01:32:22,560
you're dividing or separating. And this is just so stupid

1387
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:25,520
because the same terminology is used to the trinity. So

1388
01:32:25,560 --> 01:32:27,239
that right there should tell you that, like you have

1389
01:32:27,279 --> 01:32:28,359
no idea what you're talking about?

1390
01:32:29,760 --> 01:32:32,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I see, yeah, so I have a I

1391
01:32:32,079 --> 01:32:35,359
have a video on YouTube will definitely if anyone wants

1392
01:32:35,359 --> 01:32:37,720
to listen to this, because this is an important point.

1393
01:32:38,159 --> 01:32:42,960
It's an understanding conceptual distinction in Ordoeze Christian theology. If

1394
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:45,239
you check that video out, you're going to see exactly

1395
01:32:45,319 --> 01:32:48,439
like how deep this goes. And it's based on doctor

1396
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:52,800
David Bradshaw's article on distinction. So if you actually care

1397
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:55,680
about this issue, if you're not a hooligan, you actually

1398
01:32:55,680 --> 01:32:59,039
really care about this, you can eat you can eat

1399
01:32:59,079 --> 01:33:00,520
a watch the video. You don't want to watch me,

1400
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:03,840
go read doctor David Bachtis's article. It's fifteen pages last

1401
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:06,520
time I checked. It's quite short. You could read it

1402
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:08,319
in a single day. You could read it in thirty minutes.

1403
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:11,880
It's not difficult. It shouldn't be difficult, but it's been

1404
01:33:12,239 --> 01:33:14,039
like what, I've been making this point for like four

1405
01:33:14,159 --> 01:33:16,880
years and it still hasn't gone across.

1406
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:18,880
Speaker 2: You would think that they would at least want to

1407
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:22,199
address your objection, and I've never seen them even do that.

1408
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:25,039
And even the people, even with the people idiots within

1409
01:33:25,079 --> 01:33:27,159
the so called orthodox world that didn't make the exact

1410
01:33:27,239 --> 01:33:31,600
same mistake. It's like they don't even care to understand

1411
01:33:32,079 --> 01:33:33,319
what the objection is.

1412
01:33:34,119 --> 01:33:36,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, they make this mistake, but like the Palamite Synod,

1413
01:33:36,800 --> 01:33:40,119
like they'll argue there's a conception dist today is any

1414
01:33:40,159 --> 01:33:42,960
distinction which like the very same thing they quote like

1415
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:46,680
the next like the same paragraph actually refused the position

1416
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:49,680
exactly because it applies it applies it to the Trinity.

1417
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:52,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so they would be modalists if they're consistent.

1418
01:33:52,960 --> 01:33:54,680
This is so stupid. These people are so again, but

1419
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:59,279
this is the failure when you only rely on the

1420
01:33:59,319 --> 01:34:02,319
control f search mode of doing your apologetics.

1421
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:07,439
Speaker 5: Jay, I didn't understand a word you said. Counsel Chanceln

1422
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:09,439
is a Nestorian because it says into.

1423
01:34:09,279 --> 01:34:13,680
Speaker 3: Nature's Yeah, that's that's a pretty good argument.

1424
01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:14,199
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1425
01:34:15,159 --> 01:34:17,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I'm just gonna completely ignore everything. What you

1426
01:34:18,119 --> 01:34:21,439
just said, because I'm an Oriental, it says into nature,

1427
01:34:21,479 --> 01:34:22,359
so you're a Nestorian.

1428
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:28,880
Speaker 2: People need to read that before all of us muted

1429
01:35:28,920 --> 01:35:30,880
for all that. I'm just gonna say, read the Catapinoya

1430
01:35:31,079 --> 01:35:34,680
chapter in this Essen synergy. What kind of distinction. That's

1431
01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:36,239
what David's video is based on.

1432
01:35:36,319 --> 01:35:42,640
Speaker 5: So so yeah, basically what we have here from this creed.

1433
01:35:43,119 --> 01:35:49,640
The Orientals reject this in two natures and and they'll say,

1434
01:35:49,880 --> 01:35:56,159
we can only speak of from two natures. K Now, Orthodox,

1435
01:35:56,199 --> 01:35:58,880
we're fine with X language from two natures. We're fine

1436
01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:02,600
with that from two natures. In natures, our paradigm allows

1437
01:36:02,640 --> 01:36:09,199
for it, but the Oriental paradigm does not. And what

1438
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:16,840
they basically corner themselves into with their paradigm and the

1439
01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:19,720
way and the reasons why they restrict themselves to just

1440
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:26,920
saying from two natures will then become problematic when you

1441
01:36:27,039 --> 01:36:32,840
look at the hypostasis and how many hypostases are in

1442
01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:37,560
Christ and how do these hypostases reflect the nature. And

1443
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:42,319
so then you end up to avoid so called a

1444
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:46,079
historianism because you don't want to say into natures. You

1445
01:36:46,399 --> 01:36:52,920
end up creating a Christ who becomes composite in multiple

1446
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:58,279
hypostasies rather than composite in natures, in the divinity, in humanity,

1447
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:02,760
there's like an actual substantive change in terms of who

1448
01:37:02,840 --> 01:37:07,680
the subject of Christ is. And so the next slide

1449
01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:10,520
is going to illustrate this a little bit better or

1450
01:37:10,520 --> 01:37:14,359
more clear. So when we look at K versus N

1451
01:37:14,760 --> 01:37:20,079
or From versus N. So the Orthodox will say when

1452
01:37:20,079 --> 01:37:25,319
we say that Christ is from two natures, so you

1453
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:29,760
have a divine hypostasis, you have a divine nature and

1454
01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:33,199
a human nature, which for us means that Christ is

1455
01:37:33,479 --> 01:37:39,880
one hypostasis, two natures. But the Orientals, what they will

1456
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:44,760
say is that you result in one hypostasis and one

1457
01:37:45,079 --> 01:37:49,039
nature when you're using K, because you can only speak

1458
01:37:49,079 --> 01:37:54,079
of one one nature after the union. But when you

1459
01:37:54,119 --> 01:37:58,720
look at the INN or the N paradigm, the Orthodox

1460
01:37:58,760 --> 01:38:05,199
still result in one hypostasis, two natures. So our metaphysics

1461
01:38:05,359 --> 01:38:09,920
does not change how we talk about Christ, whether we

1462
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:16,039
talk from or in. We consistently maintain one hypostasis for

1463
01:38:16,119 --> 01:38:24,920
Christ and two natures. But the Orientals, because they have

1464
01:38:25,039 --> 01:38:30,359
to recognize under their metaphysical paradigm that there has to

1465
01:38:30,479 --> 01:38:36,560
be a concretization of the nature by virtue of its

1466
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:45,760
corresponding hypostasis introduces a human hypostatic component or human hypostasis.

1467
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:50,880
And so when you speak of in two natures, what

1468
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:57,399
the metaphysics basically now introduces is two hypostases and two natures.

1469
01:38:58,520 --> 01:39:03,439
And when you're talking two hypostasis, two natures, that results

1470
01:39:03,479 --> 01:39:11,239
in Nestorianism. And this is why the Council of Churches

1471
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:16,960
from the Oriental side, they will allow us as Orthodox

1472
01:39:17,520 --> 01:39:20,720
to use our formula because at the end of the day,

1473
01:39:20,760 --> 01:39:26,840
we're saying that there's only one hypostasis, okay, in agreement

1474
01:39:27,359 --> 01:39:32,039
with the Oriental position, but they disallow it for themselves

1475
01:39:33,079 --> 01:39:38,840
because their paradigm will result in them speaking of two

1476
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:44,279
hypostases to use in language, because for them Christ has

1477
01:39:44,359 --> 01:39:54,000
to be in one hypostasis, in one nature. Now, why

1478
01:39:54,159 --> 01:39:59,840
are the Oriental monophysites. So whenever we say oriental monophysites,

1479
01:40:00,159 --> 01:40:07,800
low IQ idiots come on and say, we're meophysides, We're

1480
01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:18,800
not monophysites, we're meophysites. No, you're monophysites monophysite. If we're

1481
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:27,880
looking at a more technical lexical understanding, it's soul nature

1482
01:40:28,199 --> 01:40:33,760
alone nature or only nature, if you will, Whereas mia

1483
01:40:34,479 --> 01:40:38,439
means one like one, so there's like one versus soul

1484
01:40:38,479 --> 01:40:43,479
alone only. Let's look at some examples. You can have

1485
01:40:43,880 --> 01:40:52,079
gnostic monophysitism where Christ is only a divine hypostasis with

1486
01:40:52,239 --> 01:40:56,399
only the divine nature. You can have a form of

1487
01:40:56,680 --> 01:41:01,359
aryan monophysitism where Christ is only a human hypostasis with

1488
01:41:01,439 --> 01:41:07,560
only a human nature. The orientals and I know, and

1489
01:41:07,600 --> 01:41:10,439
I'm expecting it. You guys are gonna cry like effeminates sisses.

1490
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:18,640
You have a tertiam quid monophysitism because Christ combines divine

1491
01:41:19,079 --> 01:41:24,560
and human hypostasis in the plural into a new tertium quid,

1492
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:30,600
some kind of divine human hypostasis, and it combines divine

1493
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:35,359
in human nature's plural into a new tertium quid divine

1494
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:40,399
human nature. And so in order to maintain Christ as

1495
01:41:40,520 --> 01:41:44,840
a single being or a single ontology, there is only

1496
01:41:44,920 --> 01:41:49,840
a divine human hypostasis with only a divine human nature.

1497
01:41:50,880 --> 01:41:58,159
Because in the oriental paradigm, a hypostasis has to exist

1498
01:41:58,560 --> 01:42:03,520
in order to concretize a nature or the idioms, if

1499
01:42:03,520 --> 01:42:07,319
you will, that are characteristic or proper to a particular nature.

1500
01:42:08,079 --> 01:42:13,439
So if Christ has human properties, there has to be

1501
01:42:13,479 --> 01:42:19,640
a human hypostasius to concretize those properties. But if you

1502
01:42:19,760 --> 01:42:23,840
are only allowed to speak of Christ in one nature,

1503
01:42:26,199 --> 01:42:32,399
then that must reflect something substantively changing in Christ to

1504
01:42:32,479 --> 01:42:39,279
reflect that particularization. It's impermissible for the Orientals to speak

1505
01:42:39,319 --> 01:42:42,920
of Christ into natures because you can only speak of

1506
01:42:43,000 --> 01:42:47,520
Christ having only one nature in a concrete, realistic sense.

1507
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:49,079
Speaker 6: Okay.

1508
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:54,439
Speaker 5: And so while you want to play word games and

1509
01:42:54,600 --> 01:43:00,800
say that monophysitism is really like Utichianism, and you reject cutiicianism,

1510
01:43:00,840 --> 01:43:05,960
so you reject monophysitism. You Tickianism is only a form

1511
01:43:06,760 --> 01:43:13,279
of monophysitism. You can have various different forms of monophysitism. Okay,

1512
01:43:14,079 --> 01:43:18,159
the Orientals is a tertium quid monophysitism.

1513
01:43:20,039 --> 01:43:22,199
Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, I'm sorry, Surf.

1514
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:24,399
Speaker 5: You can go on, you know, if you if you

1515
01:43:24,399 --> 01:43:25,319
want to make a point, go ahead.

1516
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:29,079
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think for some people easier way to understand

1517
01:43:29,119 --> 01:43:30,800
this and this analogy that I'm going to be using,

1518
01:43:30,840 --> 01:43:34,640
this an analogy saying curely uses we understand. So it's

1519
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:37,399
the same analogy, but it's understanding very different ways. So

1520
01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:39,720
it's the body's soul analogy, right, So just like how

1521
01:43:39,720 --> 01:43:41,680
the body and the soul come together to form one

1522
01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:46,600
concrete thing, Christ is, you know, one concrete thing that

1523
01:43:46,680 --> 01:43:49,960
is of divinity in humanity. That's basically the idea of

1524
01:43:50,000 --> 01:43:53,479
the analogy. So there's an orthodox sense you're divinity. You know,

1525
01:43:53,560 --> 01:43:55,960
the body and the soul too distinct natures, and yet

1526
01:43:56,119 --> 01:44:00,319
they are united strongly with each other. And so human

1527
01:44:00,319 --> 01:44:04,439
being is a soul you know unity, right, it's like

1528
01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:07,399
one being. And so the point that he's trying to

1529
01:44:07,479 --> 01:44:09,600
make is that you know, you know, though there are

1530
01:44:09,600 --> 01:44:13,880
two natures that are united in Christ, Christ is one

1531
01:44:14,159 --> 01:44:17,800
ultimately hypostasis, right. The monoposide understanding of this is a

1532
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:20,880
is very different. They will, for example, say, look, you know,

1533
01:44:20,920 --> 01:44:22,800
body and soul, they are distinct natures, but look they

1534
01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:25,319
form a new nature. Right, there's a there's a there's

1535
01:44:25,359 --> 01:44:28,000
a there's a human nature now right off the two

1536
01:44:28,359 --> 01:44:31,800
you know, nature's body and soul. So when you have this,

1537
01:44:32,000 --> 01:44:34,359
and of course you know, and we're speaking about the

1538
01:44:34,399 --> 01:44:39,119
human species, right, that's pretty much how how curious. But

1539
01:44:39,239 --> 01:44:42,560
when you take the analogy too far, that's the understanding

1540
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:44,640
you're going to get, and that's the understanding that's going

1541
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:48,159
to influence your understanding of Christ, because now you're going

1542
01:44:48,199 --> 01:44:51,159
to think, also, there's the there's a divine nature, there's

1543
01:44:51,159 --> 01:44:54,000
a human nature. Now we're going to have them come together,

1544
01:44:54,399 --> 01:44:56,199
and what's the one nature that's going to be form.

1545
01:44:56,520 --> 01:44:59,079
It's going to be a Christic nature. And although John

1546
01:44:59,159 --> 01:45:01,920
Fallopulos is considered to be ahert thing, not only in

1547
01:45:02,079 --> 01:45:06,319
the texture even in the Oriental Church, his Christological views

1548
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:09,079
were not the views that were rejected. His trinitary views

1549
01:45:09,079 --> 01:45:12,319
were rejected, right because he was a trite was ultimately

1550
01:45:12,319 --> 01:45:14,920
trying to be consistent with his Christology. I think we

1551
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:17,439
can speak about him more in depth and a different presentation.

1552
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:19,319
But the point that I'm trying to make is that

1553
01:45:19,960 --> 01:45:23,199
this is the point that he very explicitly talks about

1554
01:45:23,239 --> 01:45:25,039
this very cleaning, right, like, there is this kind of

1555
01:45:25,119 --> 01:45:27,760
Christic nature, and he tries to justify it by showing

1556
01:45:27,800 --> 01:45:30,239
examples of how, for example, human nature is this kind

1557
01:45:30,239 --> 01:45:35,159
of you know, supposedly a third thing of body and soul, right,

1558
01:45:35,159 --> 01:45:37,720
and you kind of have human nature as a result

1559
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:39,640
of this union. And so christ is kind of like

1560
01:45:39,680 --> 01:45:42,479
a result of the union of divinity and humanity. This

1561
01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:45,399
is kind of the scheme that we see it as

1562
01:45:45,439 --> 01:45:49,920
being worked with. And so you can see, actually there's

1563
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:54,239
a very different Christological view compared to the Orthodox here,

1564
01:45:54,279 --> 01:45:57,439
it's very very different. It's not just the same thing

1565
01:45:57,520 --> 01:46:01,439
with different language, No, it's that fundamental very different. And

1566
01:46:01,479 --> 01:46:03,239
one thing I'd also like to add, and I'd like

1567
01:46:03,279 --> 01:46:05,840
to gain elaborate on and elaborate about it in a

1568
01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:08,000
future video. You can kind of think if you want

1569
01:46:08,039 --> 01:46:10,560
to think about this in Aristotelian terms, like with particular

1570
01:46:11,279 --> 01:46:14,359
like kind of like substance accident, right, if you define substance,

1571
01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:16,479
but you see it's in monophysitism, that's kind of like

1572
01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:22,640
the self subsistent you know, substance, right, self subsistent thing

1573
01:46:22,880 --> 01:46:26,479
an accident as you know, non self subsistent. You kind

1574
01:46:26,520 --> 01:46:30,479
of had this picture of the divinity process being self subsistence.

1575
01:46:30,520 --> 01:46:32,560
So it is a substance. It's a nature, but the

1576
01:46:32,640 --> 01:46:36,399
humanity isn't because it doesn't subsist on its own relation

1577
01:46:36,439 --> 01:46:38,199
to Christ. So it's kind of like an accident, right,

1578
01:46:38,239 --> 01:46:40,560
So humanity is kind of like an accident in this view.

1579
01:46:41,000 --> 01:46:42,840
So that's a different way of also kind of to

1580
01:46:42,880 --> 01:46:45,239
see what's going on. And this is kind of how

1581
01:46:45,359 --> 01:46:49,039
you end up getting an understanding of one nature good

1582
01:46:49,079 --> 01:46:49,560
in this view.

1583
01:46:49,840 --> 01:46:51,840
Speaker 2: And you'll notice too that there's a there's a kind

1584
01:46:51,880 --> 01:46:56,119
of metaphysical reductionism that is the presupposition here, because you

1585
01:46:56,159 --> 01:46:59,079
would only think only through that assumption, would you.

1586
01:46:59,079 --> 01:47:03,239
Speaker 4: Think that having two in a union and still having

1587
01:47:03,319 --> 01:47:09,079
the distinction after the union necessitates composition, achieving necessitates separation

1588
01:47:09,279 --> 01:47:09,800
or division.

1589
01:47:10,159 --> 01:47:12,439
Speaker 2: So in other words, there's an there's an assumption of

1590
01:47:12,479 --> 01:47:15,039
either or rather than both. In so we believe there's

1591
01:47:15,039 --> 01:47:18,319
a real union, even if the two natures retain their

1592
01:47:18,359 --> 01:47:22,079
properties properties after the union. So for them they say, well,

1593
01:47:22,079 --> 01:47:25,720
but if you speak of two natures, you're necessarily dividing

1594
01:47:25,720 --> 01:47:28,960
them or separating them. So that's based on a reductionistic

1595
01:47:29,000 --> 01:47:31,760
metaphysic where it has to be either or it can

1596
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:34,399
never be both, and and over and over and over.

1597
01:47:34,439 --> 01:47:38,279
In orthodox theology, whether it's our participation in grace, whether

1598
01:47:38,319 --> 01:47:43,319
it's the doctrine paracreesis, whether it's the interpenetration of the

1599
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:48,439
two natures in Christ fully interpenetrating one another, the energies

1600
01:47:48,439 --> 01:47:51,960
in Christ fully in trating one another, it's a both

1601
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:53,199
and and not in either or.

1602
01:47:54,399 --> 01:47:57,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to that point, I mean just like strongly

1603
01:47:57,119 --> 01:48:00,680
back that up. Severus of Antioch one like the main

1604
01:48:01,760 --> 01:48:06,479
champions of oriental beliefs. Like he's very expensively says is

1605
01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:09,840
Letter eighteen, duality is a dissolver of unity.

1606
01:48:10,319 --> 01:48:13,960
Speaker 2: Exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying that that's undergirds all

1607
01:48:13,960 --> 01:48:16,239
of their thoughts and by the way, all heretics. I mean,

1608
01:48:16,279 --> 01:48:19,600
he's just one manifestation of it in regard to Christology.

1609
01:48:19,840 --> 01:48:23,279
But the same ideas there with like Eunomius when he's

1610
01:48:23,359 --> 01:48:26,479
arguing with Basil and saying that if you distinguish father

1611
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:29,399
and son, there's composition, division and separation.

1612
01:48:30,520 --> 01:48:34,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the thing is again, you know, if you're

1613
01:48:34,359 --> 01:48:36,840
talking about you know, there can be aspects of series

1614
01:48:36,880 --> 01:48:38,640
of counting that where you can kind of explain to

1615
01:48:39,119 --> 01:48:42,600
but again the cocul definitional really explains it. And the

1616
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:45,279
quick kind of question you ask, Okay, if duality is

1617
01:48:45,319 --> 01:48:48,600
disolver refunity, what about the triad? Does that dissolve unity?

1618
01:48:48,640 --> 01:48:51,760
To exactly suld Right. But then this is the part

1619
01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:55,880
where you get, oh, you know Christology is different, transientology

1620
01:48:55,960 --> 01:48:58,239
is different, different metaphysics.

1621
01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:02,199
Speaker 2: And yet we just saw that the nature distinction that

1622
01:49:02,319 --> 01:49:06,079
moves from Cappadocians to Cyril et cetera, it's reflexive on

1623
01:49:06,119 --> 01:49:08,960
the basis of the trinity. So they're just departing from

1624
01:49:09,000 --> 01:49:10,159
Cappadocians at that point.

1625
01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:13,840
Speaker 3: And as you said, I mean, you know, Christology is

1626
01:49:14,159 --> 01:49:17,319
actually fundamentally trinitarian because it's about one of the persons. Yeah,

1627
01:49:17,319 --> 01:49:19,399
how would we exactly separate them?

1628
01:49:19,800 --> 01:49:22,039
Speaker 2: I mean where, Yeah, where does hypostasis come from in

1629
01:49:22,079 --> 01:49:24,840
terms of the incarnation if it's not the second hypostasis exactly?

1630
01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:32,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, moving on, So looking at diophysite, diophysite, what

1631
01:49:32,920 --> 01:49:40,199
does that mean to natures? So there's a Nestorian diophysitism,

1632
01:49:41,640 --> 01:49:44,600
which is crisis a divine hypostosis with the divine nature

1633
01:49:44,960 --> 01:49:49,119
and the human hypostosis with the human nature. That maintains

1634
01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:54,159
two hypostatic ontologies. So it's not going in the direction

1635
01:49:54,239 --> 01:49:57,760
of the tertium quid of the Monophysites, but it's basically

1636
01:49:57,800 --> 01:50:02,760
going direction of a juxtaposition of the natures to maintain

1637
01:50:02,960 --> 01:50:12,880
two distinct hypostatic ontologies. The orthodox diaphysitism is that Christ

1638
01:50:12,960 --> 01:50:17,000
is a divine hypostasis with the divine nature and the

1639
01:50:17,079 --> 01:50:21,279
human nature. Okay, So we only speak of a single

1640
01:50:21,760 --> 01:50:29,239
divine hypostatic ontology that is the subject for two natures

1641
01:50:29,520 --> 01:50:36,880
divine in human Okay. So our understanding of Diaphycitism is

1642
01:50:37,279 --> 01:50:46,079
fundamentally different from Nestorianism, from the Nestorians. So when the

1643
01:50:46,079 --> 01:50:53,920
Orientals call us Nestorian, what exactly is Nestorian? We admit

1644
01:50:54,039 --> 01:50:56,439
of only one hypostasis.

1645
01:50:57,359 --> 01:50:58,359
Speaker 3: To what.

1646
01:51:00,760 --> 01:51:08,840
Speaker 5: Okay, meaphysite meaning one nature. You can have two senses,

1647
01:51:09,039 --> 01:51:12,319
just as how in diophysite you have two senses between

1648
01:51:12,359 --> 01:51:17,319
the Historian and Orthodox. Meaphysite you have one nature, two

1649
01:51:17,359 --> 01:51:21,840
senses by the Oriental and the Orthodox. But the Oriental

1650
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:26,199
position does not help them because it ends up reducing

1651
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:33,000
to a Monophysite position. The Oriental understanding of meophysitism is

1652
01:51:33,399 --> 01:51:38,880
you have multiple hypostatic ontologies, as Jay and David were

1653
01:51:38,920 --> 01:51:48,600
just mentioning, are unified into one hypostasis, and Christ is

1654
01:51:48,720 --> 01:51:55,239
the result of combining multiple hypostasies. And it's very interesting

1655
01:51:55,520 --> 01:52:00,920
that the Oriental tradition in this is very explicit in

1656
01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:06,840
the Ethiopic Oriental tradition where they use the term heedo

1657
01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:14,960
to refer to this this unity in one hypostasis of

1658
01:52:15,000 --> 01:52:21,279
a plurality of hypostasis. And it's not a coincidence that

1659
01:52:21,920 --> 01:52:29,319
Teahedo finds its usage in Islam under taoheed The unification

1660
01:52:29,479 --> 01:52:33,159
of whatever. And I have videos talking about what exactly

1661
01:52:33,239 --> 01:52:38,359
is being unified under the Islamic metaphysical paradigm. But this

1662
01:52:38,520 --> 01:52:43,079
is the usage, the classical usage of the Orientals. And

1663
01:52:43,119 --> 01:52:46,880
so for them to say, we're meophysites, Okay, yeah, you're

1664
01:52:46,920 --> 01:52:52,479
meophysites because you take multiple hypostases and you basically change

1665
01:52:52,920 --> 01:52:58,600
the constitution of what Christ is as a subject. You're

1666
01:52:58,680 --> 01:53:05,000
creating a new object and calling that Christ, whereas for

1667
01:53:05,079 --> 01:53:10,800
the Orthodox Christ is only ever one hypostasis, divine only

1668
01:53:11,439 --> 01:53:13,520
who is the subject of the encarnat.

1669
01:53:15,199 --> 01:53:16,159
Speaker 6: But in this.

1670
01:53:16,079 --> 01:53:20,840
Speaker 5: Case, and this is where you have to be understanding

1671
01:53:20,960 --> 01:53:26,359
in terms of Saint Cyril's usage of terminology is nature

1672
01:53:26,840 --> 01:53:32,720
feces in this case is used synonymously with hypostasis. So

1673
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:39,399
when Saint Cyril is talking about meophysitism, he's saying that

1674
01:53:39,560 --> 01:53:47,119
Christ the subject, Christ the person is the subject for

1675
01:53:47,359 --> 01:53:53,560
the incarnation. Okay, it's not that in his incarnation he

1676
01:53:53,680 --> 01:53:57,239
subsumes into himself another hypostatic ontology.

1677
01:53:58,960 --> 01:54:05,399
Speaker 3: Okay, uh. And something I want to add is that

1678
01:54:06,079 --> 01:54:08,760
Saint Justinian has a good point about this, Like he

1679
01:54:09,119 --> 01:54:11,199
makes the point that, like when you look at the

1680
01:54:11,279 --> 01:54:13,359
statements of Saint Curl of Alexandria Mixon. I think it's

1681
01:54:13,359 --> 01:54:17,239
one of your in one of your slides. The names

1682
01:54:17,279 --> 01:54:20,199
that he applies to the nature are like names like

1683
01:54:20,319 --> 01:54:24,439
only begotten son word, those are names for persons, like

1684
01:54:24,520 --> 01:54:28,359
for specific that specifies the person of Christ. These are

1685
01:54:28,359 --> 01:54:30,880
not names that are proper to the nature, because if

1686
01:54:30,920 --> 01:54:33,039
it was proper to the nature, then the Father will

1687
01:54:33,039 --> 01:54:36,000
also be the only begotten, which doesn't make any sense. Right,

1688
01:54:36,079 --> 01:54:39,960
So at the end, I think another point that we

1689
01:54:40,039 --> 01:54:45,119
need to also understand who wrote the Calculion definition. Richard

1690
01:54:45,159 --> 01:54:49,640
Price right, who transit the acts, and he notes that

1691
01:54:50,159 --> 01:54:55,119
the people that wrote the Calcadonian definition which speaks of

1692
01:54:55,199 --> 01:54:58,560
Christ as being into natures, et cetera. First of all,

1693
01:54:58,600 --> 01:55:03,840
none of them were had any positive thing feelings about

1694
01:55:04,680 --> 01:55:08,479
Nestorians or prodert Nestorians. Right. They were all very negative

1695
01:55:08,479 --> 01:55:11,960
towards Theodore of Cyrus, for example, who they considered to

1696
01:55:12,000 --> 01:55:14,399
be a Nestorian at the time of the Council, who

1697
01:55:14,479 --> 01:55:18,000
had to repent from his Nestorianism. So they had very

1698
01:55:18,039 --> 01:55:22,359
negative feelings pretty much all of them. And what's more,

1699
01:55:22,399 --> 01:55:26,239
even more important, as Richard Price mentions, is and you

1700
01:55:26,319 --> 01:55:28,960
can check the axe he speaks about this is that

1701
01:55:29,000 --> 01:55:33,319
pretty much a lot of the writers of the definition

1702
01:55:34,159 --> 01:55:39,359
were actually Meophysites, so they had a meophysite kind of Christology,

1703
01:55:39,880 --> 01:55:42,600
and they taught that you could make it. You could

1704
01:55:42,760 --> 01:55:48,319
have this kind of a proper understanding of metaphysites terminology

1705
01:55:48,680 --> 01:55:52,840
with diophysite Christology. Right, So this is what we see

1706
01:55:53,199 --> 01:55:56,000
with kind of and so there's this kind of a

1707
01:55:56,039 --> 01:55:59,960
real justification for the usage of both of these terminology

1708
01:56:00,039 --> 01:56:02,920
seen its correct usages. So we can't do this right.

1709
01:56:03,800 --> 01:56:07,119
This is why being you sight seeing Colonel of Alexandra

1710
01:56:07,199 --> 01:56:10,119
or any other saint speaks of christis having one nature.

1711
01:56:10,840 --> 01:56:14,399
You know, the calculative definition already increase, you know, in

1712
01:56:14,399 --> 01:56:17,399
this sense is kind of already incorporates that with the alters,

1713
01:56:17,439 --> 01:56:20,119
the alters of the confession itself. So this is not

1714
01:56:20,159 --> 01:56:22,600
a problem for us. And this is why I always

1715
01:56:22,600 --> 01:56:24,520
make the point, and as Kai has made the point

1716
01:56:24,680 --> 01:56:28,000
in his presentation, it's not about the magic words that

1717
01:56:28,039 --> 01:56:30,039
you use. It's kind of like how you understand it

1718
01:56:30,079 --> 01:56:32,840
in the Fifth techm Medical Council, there are various different

1719
01:56:32,880 --> 01:56:35,039
ways in which you can understand this term that is

1720
01:56:36,079 --> 01:56:39,479
spoken about specifically in the Fifth Tech Medical Council right

1721
01:56:39,479 --> 01:56:42,760
when you speak about crisis having you know there of

1722
01:56:42,920 --> 01:56:46,600
there being one nature of the of God the word incarnate. Right.

1723
01:56:46,640 --> 01:56:48,720
So there's various different ways that you can understand, various

1724
01:56:48,720 --> 01:56:51,720
different correct ways of understanding it, and also ways that

1725
01:56:51,760 --> 01:56:56,199
you that ways of understanding are heretical. And it specifies

1726
01:56:56,239 --> 01:56:58,920
them very clearly, right, And it is in fact quite

1727
01:56:58,960 --> 01:57:02,439
consistent with saying curious writings. It's not just you know, oh,

1728
01:57:02,479 --> 01:57:05,439
you know, we have to make up some elements to

1729
01:57:05,479 --> 01:57:09,439
make this palatable to us. No, there's good reasoning. And

1730
01:57:09,520 --> 01:57:12,079
I think a very fundamental aspect of this is that

1731
01:57:13,399 --> 01:57:16,359
a correct way, for example, will be to point out,

1732
01:57:16,399 --> 01:57:19,520
you know, if we count by a division, right, and

1733
01:57:19,600 --> 01:57:23,319
speaking of two divides, right, if that's the worry, then yeah, that's,

1734
01:57:23,640 --> 01:57:26,840
for example, how you invoke it, right. But you also,

1735
01:57:27,560 --> 01:57:31,720
at the same time indicate that two natures are distinct, right,

1736
01:57:32,159 --> 01:57:34,720
and a correct usage of both the formulas in this

1737
01:57:34,840 --> 01:57:39,239
manner as well. And this is how the distinction in

1738
01:57:39,319 --> 01:57:46,359
conception is relevant, right, because the division is merely conceptual.

1739
01:57:46,479 --> 01:57:49,479
It's not real the division. There's no division between the

1740
01:57:49,520 --> 01:57:52,680
two natures of Christ, right, They're not divided into two persons.

1741
01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:55,479
That's all merely that's a figment of your imagination. And

1742
01:57:55,520 --> 01:57:59,720
this is talked about by Leontis of Jerusalem. So again

1743
01:57:59,800 --> 01:58:02,840
there's historical precedent for pretty much everything that you're talking

1744
01:58:02,840 --> 01:58:03,279
about here.

1745
01:58:04,439 --> 01:58:06,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, all right, I'm gonna move on unless you want

1746
01:58:06,760 --> 01:58:07,720
to say anything, Jay.

1747
01:58:08,119 --> 01:58:10,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just really depends on what one means. Right.

1748
01:58:10,479 --> 01:58:12,600
You have, for example, in the Palamite syn Ons this

1749
01:58:12,720 --> 01:58:16,079
statement that we distinguish the energy's cat up and oia.

1750
01:58:16,520 --> 01:58:19,199
But they say after that, what we mean by that

1751
01:58:19,640 --> 01:58:24,399
is if you think that there's an separation or division.

1752
01:58:25,520 --> 01:58:28,880
So in other words, the distinction is made in the mind,

1753
01:58:29,840 --> 01:58:34,079
and it's in the mind if you think that there's

1754
01:58:34,119 --> 01:58:36,840
a real separation or division in the energies, as if

1755
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:39,720
they're separate things. But then it goes on to say, however,

1756
01:58:40,520 --> 01:58:44,720
in themselves they are actually really distinct energies. In fact,

1757
01:58:45,439 --> 01:58:49,720
Palamos uses the terminology that that's accepted in the Tomos

1758
01:58:50,199 --> 01:58:51,960
that they are exceedingly different.

1759
01:58:54,800 --> 01:58:57,560
Speaker 6: Okay, thank you, So.

1760
01:58:59,239 --> 01:59:05,479
Speaker 5: Orthodoxy verse Church of the East, the Fifth Ecumenical Council

1761
01:59:06,680 --> 01:59:14,359
anathematizes Nestorius and Theodore of Mopsuestia. And so when we

1762
01:59:14,399 --> 01:59:18,680
look at the canons of the eighth Session, Paragraphs eleven

1763
01:59:18,720 --> 01:59:24,680
and twelve. If anyone does not anathematize, and there's names listed,

1764
01:59:24,680 --> 01:59:29,920
but I pick out Nestorius, let him be anathema. If

1765
01:59:29,960 --> 01:59:34,279
anyone defends the impious Theodore of Mopsuestia, and if he

1766
01:59:34,359 --> 01:59:41,720
does not anathematize him, let him be anathema. This is

1767
01:59:41,800 --> 01:59:47,920
important because what it's saying here, what the Ecumenical Councils

1768
01:59:47,960 --> 01:59:51,239
are saying. If you are Orthodox and you believe in

1769
01:59:51,279 --> 01:59:58,159
the Ecumenical Councils, you can not be in communion with

1770
01:59:58,279 --> 02:00:06,159
the Orthodox Church without explainlic anathematizing Nestorius and Theodora. You

1771
02:00:06,439 --> 02:00:09,880
must explicitly anathematize them.

1772
02:00:10,439 --> 02:00:13,960
Speaker 2: And notice, by the way, the remember the Romancallolic Church

1773
02:00:14,000 --> 02:00:18,359
has rehabilitated Nestorius, right, and so that would mean that

1774
02:00:18,439 --> 02:00:23,039
the Romancalic Church is not just rejecting ephesis which condemns

1775
02:00:23,119 --> 02:00:26,439
Nestorius for a dual subject Christology. And I don't know

1776
02:00:26,479 --> 02:00:28,159
if you guys remember, but of course the voice of

1777
02:00:28,239 --> 02:00:30,920
reason we know Gogaku culture of Averagers did not could

1778
02:00:30,960 --> 02:00:34,319
be sure the culture of Averagures was wrong. And Nestorians

1779
02:00:34,439 --> 02:00:41,000
is a good guy. Right. We've heard Catholics rehabilitating Nestorius. Well,

1780
02:00:41,000 --> 02:00:44,000
they're also rejecting the Fifth Council, so it's not just

1781
02:00:44,119 --> 02:00:46,960
rejecting Ephesus, is also rejecting the Fifth Ecamical Council.

1782
02:00:47,479 --> 02:00:51,720
Speaker 5: Yep, and along the line, So Nestorius and Theodore are

1783
02:00:51,800 --> 02:00:54,920
venerated in the Church of the East. Okay, So just

1784
02:00:54,960 --> 02:00:58,560
from that simple fact alone, there cannot be communion. Okay,

1785
02:00:59,079 --> 02:01:03,760
drop this ecumen garbage. Okay, this ecumenism that you're trying

1786
02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:09,520
to promote in saying that we can accept the Church

1787
02:01:09,560 --> 02:01:15,600
of the East, we cannot. It is canonically impossible and

1788
02:01:15,760 --> 02:01:20,520
impermissible for the Orthodox Church to enter into communion with

1789
02:01:20,640 --> 02:01:23,159
the Church of the East insofar as the Church of

1790
02:01:23,159 --> 02:01:29,640
the East does not explicitly anathematize Nestorius and Theodora, and

1791
02:01:31,199 --> 02:01:35,199
Orthodoxy does not permit silence on the issue. There has

1792
02:01:35,279 --> 02:01:40,439
to be an explicit anathematization. And I just pick out

1793
02:01:40,520 --> 02:01:43,319
Thestorias and Theodoro because this is relevant for the Church

1794
02:01:43,359 --> 02:01:47,039
of the East. But these councils, they list many other

1795
02:01:47,439 --> 02:01:53,720
heretics that must also be anathematized. But when we take

1796
02:01:53,760 --> 02:01:57,520
a look at the Church of the East, it venerates

1797
02:01:57,560 --> 02:02:00,960
Nestorius and Theodora. Look at for egs example, in one

1798
02:02:00,960 --> 02:02:07,039
of their hymns where they take Psalm one hundred talking

1799
02:02:07,119 --> 02:02:12,520
about Moses and Aaron, his priest and Samuel, and they

1800
02:02:12,640 --> 02:02:18,840
literally leave the psalm intact and replace it with Saints

1801
02:02:18,920 --> 02:02:26,319
Theodora and Theodora and Modernistorius. Okay, so make no mistakes

1802
02:02:26,319 --> 02:02:35,560
about it, Theodore, Theodore Nestorius, they taught to subject Christology,

1803
02:02:36,680 --> 02:02:44,800
and the Church of the East venerates them. Okay. The

1804
02:02:44,840 --> 02:02:51,640
litmus test the Fifth Ecumenical Council. The Fifth Ecumenical Council

1805
02:02:52,159 --> 02:02:59,800
makes it impossible for the Orthodox position to be Nestorians,

1806
02:03:00,039 --> 02:03:05,680
especially with its insistence on Christ being a single subject,

1807
02:03:06,039 --> 02:03:12,920
divine only hypostasis and the explicit anathematizations of Nestorius and Theodora.

1808
02:03:14,960 --> 02:03:18,960
Given that the Fifth e Communical Council delineates the way

1809
02:03:19,039 --> 02:03:23,840
the Fourth e Communical Council of Chalcedon is to be understood,

1810
02:03:24,960 --> 02:03:33,039
Orientals cannot substantiate that Chalcedon is inherently Nestorian, just how

1811
02:03:33,199 --> 02:03:38,039
Scripture does not inherently teach Arianism. I don't care that

1812
02:03:38,079 --> 02:03:43,600
you're quoting me passages and you're reading Nestorianism into it. No,

1813
02:03:43,880 --> 02:03:48,399
you need to show me the entire paradigm, the entire

1814
02:03:48,600 --> 02:03:52,680
metaphysical framework that is allowing you to give you a

1815
02:03:52,840 --> 02:03:58,600
coherent and consistent understanding of what's said in Chalcedon and

1816
02:03:58,960 --> 02:04:05,840
how the Fifth Council understands it. Now, if the Church

1817
02:04:05,920 --> 02:04:10,680
of the East accepts the Fourth Ecumenical Council, and this

1818
02:04:10,840 --> 02:04:15,279
is one of the talking points of the Orientals, they say, well,

1819
02:04:15,359 --> 02:04:20,720
you see the Nestorians they accept Chalcedon. That's because Chalcedon

1820
02:04:20,920 --> 02:04:27,439
is Nestorian. Well, a big problem with this is then

1821
02:04:28,439 --> 02:04:31,960
the Church of the East should logically also accept the

1822
02:04:31,960 --> 02:04:38,680
theology of the Fifth Ecumenical Council. Since it doesn't, then

1823
02:04:38,720 --> 02:04:43,720
that means that its theological reading of the Fourth Ecumenical

1824
02:04:43,760 --> 02:04:50,199
Council is not the same as the Orthodox. In other words,

1825
02:04:50,359 --> 02:04:54,560
the Church of the East, which is a Nestorian, has

1826
02:04:54,640 --> 02:05:00,560
a fundamentally different theology to that of the Orthodox. And

1827
02:05:00,920 --> 02:05:03,479
the next point here is what I alluded to earlier

1828
02:05:04,279 --> 02:05:10,039
of using Saint Cyril as the example. Mere acceptance of

1829
02:05:10,119 --> 02:05:14,640
the same words does not mean that the Orthodox and

1830
02:05:14,720 --> 02:05:18,600
Church of the East profess the same theology. And it's

1831
02:05:18,640 --> 02:05:22,840
in his third letter to Nestorius that Saint Cyril illustrates

1832
02:05:22,840 --> 02:05:26,840
the force of this line of argumentation by highlighting that

1833
02:05:27,000 --> 02:05:30,680
despite the stories reciting the Nicene Creed as a profession

1834
02:05:30,760 --> 02:05:36,840
of faith, he still exhibits incorrect theology. In other words,

1835
02:05:37,199 --> 02:05:43,479
agreement on words is not enough. There has to also

1836
02:05:43,720 --> 02:05:49,720
be agreement in how those words are understood. And so

1837
02:05:49,800 --> 02:05:54,920
the oriental argument falls flat on its face that Chalcedon

1838
02:05:55,439 --> 02:06:00,640
is inherently Nestorian. And to make the claim that calcil

1839
02:06:00,680 --> 02:06:07,840
Don inherently teaches Nestorianism demonstrates that you have an incapacity

1840
02:06:08,079 --> 02:06:12,119
to understand paradigms. You're just quote mining and you are

1841
02:06:12,239 --> 02:06:18,239
reading into those quotes. Okay, this is intellectual dishonesty.

1842
02:06:19,520 --> 02:06:22,439
Speaker 3: And on that point, there's something very important that I'd

1843
02:06:22,479 --> 02:06:27,520
like to point out. So the basic argument is that

1844
02:06:27,600 --> 02:06:32,760
you hear and it's it's basically Nestorius accepted the Fortech

1845
02:06:32,880 --> 02:06:36,319
Medical Council. Therefore the fort Tech Medical Council is nestory.

1846
02:06:36,479 --> 02:06:39,359
I mean that's kind of like saying unitarians accept scriptures

1847
02:06:39,399 --> 02:06:41,359
or scripture as unitarian. I mean, it's a very it's

1848
02:06:41,399 --> 02:06:44,600
a very silly billy logic. But there's another there's a

1849
02:06:44,600 --> 02:06:49,239
different way of looking at this. Heretics have throughout history

1850
02:06:49,640 --> 02:06:53,119
pretended to accept councils and say this is what I

1851
02:06:53,199 --> 02:06:56,159
believe in order to come back to the church. And

1852
02:06:56,880 --> 02:07:00,159
a very easy example of this, and look, you can

1853
02:07:00,199 --> 02:07:04,920
read this from Socrates Scholasticus Church History Book one. Go

1854
02:07:05,039 --> 02:07:08,359
down to chapter twenty five. You will see this is

1855
02:07:08,399 --> 02:07:12,039
after Arius, you know, this is after the Nicean Council,

1856
02:07:12,119 --> 02:07:16,000
and it's talking about Arias. And Saint Constantine sends a

1857
02:07:16,079 --> 02:07:19,720
letter to Arius, tells him, you know, recalls him, tells him,

1858
02:07:19,720 --> 02:07:22,880
you know, oh, you're going to repent of your heresy,

1859
02:07:22,960 --> 02:07:26,439
you know, come back, and we're going to I'm going

1860
02:07:26,520 --> 02:07:28,720
to listen to you and hear what you have to say.

1861
02:07:29,199 --> 02:07:32,800
Arius visits reads basically a creed and he and chapter

1862
02:07:32,840 --> 02:07:35,439
twenty six is literally called Arius on being recalled, presents

1863
02:07:35,439 --> 02:07:39,399
a recantation recantation to the emperor. So he reads the creed, right,

1864
02:07:39,760 --> 02:07:43,159
that seems that's close to the terminology of the nice

1865
02:07:43,159 --> 02:07:46,239
Seen Council and pretends to accept the Nicene creed. So

1866
02:07:46,319 --> 02:07:49,600
Arius pretends that he accepts the first secumentical council. So

1867
02:07:49,640 --> 02:07:51,479
are we going to say that the first techminical council

1868
02:07:51,560 --> 02:07:54,640
is an Aryan? And that's basically the same logic here

1869
02:07:54,680 --> 02:07:57,279
because Arias pretend to accept it. And what happened afterwards

1870
02:07:58,600 --> 02:08:01,720
is that, you know, Saint Constant team, you know, sent

1871
02:08:01,800 --> 02:08:04,560
him back to Alexandria to go back to his home.

1872
02:08:05,199 --> 02:08:09,359
And the what's prevented Areas from being recognized as a

1873
02:08:09,439 --> 02:08:15,079
legitimate clergy is because Saint Antonatius opposed him.

1874
02:08:15,399 --> 02:08:15,600
Speaker 6: Right.

1875
02:08:16,560 --> 02:08:21,199
Speaker 3: But this all tells you again that, look, you have

1876
02:08:21,359 --> 02:08:24,560
very different examples of heretics in history pretending to accept

1877
02:08:24,600 --> 02:08:26,960
councilors to just to come back to the church, right,

1878
02:08:27,560 --> 02:08:30,159
So I don't see how this is supposed to be

1879
02:08:30,239 --> 02:08:35,039
convincing that Thestoria supposedly accepts the fort Technical Council. You know,

1880
02:08:35,760 --> 02:08:38,359
you kind of have to be very naive. Even if

1881
02:08:38,399 --> 02:08:42,720
he believed that the Fourth Council was teaching what he taught.

1882
02:08:42,880 --> 02:08:47,640
Even if Nestorius fully believed in that, that doesn't say anything.

1883
02:08:47,760 --> 02:08:51,800
That doesn't tell you anything. Again, as many Protestants, many

1884
02:08:51,920 --> 02:08:56,880
Roman Catholics, many Unitarians, even many Muslims believe that the

1885
02:08:56,880 --> 02:08:59,439
Holy scriptures that the Bible teaches what they teach, they

1886
02:08:59,479 --> 02:09:02,800
genuinely lead this. So I guess the Bible, but you know,

1887
02:09:02,840 --> 02:09:05,800
teaches these things by this logic. It's a very again.

1888
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:08,800
You notice you take a look into it, you think

1889
02:09:08,800 --> 02:09:10,560
about it a little bit, and you'll notice it's a

1890
02:09:10,680 --> 02:09:14,039
very again, it's very weak logic, and it's only there

1891
02:09:14,079 --> 02:09:17,720
to kind of try to make a show of.

1892
02:09:17,640 --> 02:09:18,000
Speaker 6: It, right.

1893
02:09:18,039 --> 02:09:20,880
Speaker 3: It's like these people will try to use even the

1894
02:09:20,960 --> 02:09:24,239
smallest advantage for themselves because they don't really have anything.

1895
02:09:24,479 --> 02:09:27,319
To be honest, they don't really have anything, and that's

1896
02:09:27,359 --> 02:09:29,640
why they kind of resort to these I think, very

1897
02:09:29,680 --> 02:09:32,159
silly arguments because that's pretty much it's pretty much what

1898
02:09:32,159 --> 02:09:34,199
it is. It is a very silly argument if you

1899
02:09:34,239 --> 02:09:35,119
look at it.

1900
02:09:35,119 --> 02:09:38,359
Speaker 5: It's basically the Orientals are making Muslim tier arguments.

1901
02:09:38,720 --> 02:09:39,359
Speaker 6: That's what it is.

1902
02:09:39,399 --> 02:09:42,279
Speaker 3: Honestly, Yeah, honestly, yeah, one hundred percent agree with you there,

1903
02:09:42,319 --> 02:09:44,520
Like it's the same kind of art. It's even the

1904
02:09:44,560 --> 02:09:47,199
same kind of like attitude, I see, like the same

1905
02:09:47,279 --> 02:09:49,760
kind of thinking, the same kind of attitude. I'm not

1906
02:09:49,800 --> 02:09:53,239
saying all Orientals are like there's obviously not right, but

1907
02:09:53,399 --> 02:09:56,399
kind of like the very boisterous online ones, you know,

1908
02:09:56,840 --> 02:10:00,840
it's definitely what I there's a lot of very strong hommonalities.

1909
02:10:01,079 --> 02:10:05,560
Speaker 5: It's like, well, it's like how the the Muslims will

1910
02:10:05,560 --> 02:10:09,520
say a good argument to refute Christ being divine is

1911
02:10:09,520 --> 02:10:15,800
because he ate food. It's like Chalcedon is Nestorian because Thestorius.

1912
02:10:15,279 --> 02:10:17,119
Speaker 6: Accepted It's.

1913
02:10:18,560 --> 02:10:23,399
Speaker 2: I mean, and again, I don't mean to beat the over.

1914
02:10:23,960 --> 02:10:26,520
I don't even mean to keep harping on the catapanoya issue,

1915
02:10:26,520 --> 02:10:27,840
but I forgot that.

1916
02:10:28,039 --> 02:10:28,119
Speaker 3: Uh.

1917
02:10:29,960 --> 02:10:35,399
Speaker 2: Catapanoia is the argument that Eunomius uses, right Youunomia says, yeah,

1918
02:10:35,399 --> 02:10:39,960
there's these different names like Sun or unbegotten or begotten.

1919
02:10:40,479 --> 02:10:44,560
He's like, but these are distinctions catapanoya, particularly when you're

1920
02:10:44,560 --> 02:10:48,439
describing the one God. If you're using these terms, those

1921
02:10:48,439 --> 02:10:51,840
are just mentally distinguished terms that aren't really distinct. The

1922
02:10:52,119 --> 02:10:58,000
response to Unomia's by the by the cap Docians is that, yeah,

1923
02:10:58,039 --> 02:11:02,640
but cadapanoya can pick out things, so in other words,

1924
02:11:02,640 --> 02:11:04,760
it can be a mental distinction that's also based on

1925
02:11:04,800 --> 02:11:08,000
what's really there, in other words, their response to him,

1926
02:11:08,159 --> 02:11:10,960
and so that notice it's you know, catabinoid is being

1927
02:11:11,039 --> 02:11:15,279
used by the monophesites in the same low tier way

1928
02:11:15,359 --> 02:11:17,600
that you know me is using it. I'm saying I

1929
02:11:17,600 --> 02:11:19,479
don't mean, I don't I'm not saying they mean the

1930
02:11:19,520 --> 02:11:24,079
same things. They're using the phrase in the same erroneous way.

1931
02:11:24,880 --> 02:11:27,800
And the response to the Cappa dosans is that you're

1932
02:11:27,800 --> 02:11:31,319
misunderstanding what that what that phrase means. Something can be

1933
02:11:31,399 --> 02:11:34,239
a mental distinction based in a real distinction. It can

1934
02:11:34,279 --> 02:11:34,720
be both.

1935
02:11:35,159 --> 02:11:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, let me give you an example of Jay, Like,

1936
02:11:37,239 --> 02:11:40,359
how do you distinguish the body and the soul? For example,

1937
02:11:41,079 --> 02:11:45,600
because yeah, the soul is invisible. How do you apprehend

1938
02:11:45,600 --> 02:11:49,359
the soul only of it this? Now, if you don't

1939
02:11:49,439 --> 02:11:51,199
understand this point, then I guess you don't have this.

1940
02:11:51,359 --> 02:11:55,199
But only this can you apprehend the soul. That's basically

1941
02:11:55,760 --> 02:11:58,399
that's the point the announced to Jerusalem makes, right, Like

1942
02:11:58,760 --> 02:12:02,159
when you distinguish between in invisible thing, invisible thing, or

1943
02:12:02,199 --> 02:12:07,560
two invisible things, the distinction is right. So again like

1944
02:12:07,600 --> 02:12:11,680
reducing it to just atimistic understanding of virtual distinction is

1945
02:12:11,720 --> 02:12:13,439
just again it's.

1946
02:12:14,000 --> 02:12:17,359
Speaker 2: Well, it's ironical. It's the very thing that Eunomius did

1947
02:12:17,479 --> 02:12:22,399
in that dispute that Basil and Gregor Vanessa are saying. Yeah,

1948
02:12:22,439 --> 02:12:25,760
but you're misusing Catapanoia. It doesn't mean that it's never real.

1949
02:12:27,000 --> 02:12:29,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Saint Basil uses it in in the way

1950
02:12:29,920 --> 02:12:32,000
that we use it. And also an important point again

1951
02:12:32,039 --> 02:12:35,600
like okay, just because like certain things that are koa

1952
02:12:35,680 --> 02:12:40,920
are just merely imaginary, like unicorns. Okay, you apprehend it

1953
02:12:40,960 --> 02:12:44,119
according to your mind alone. But it also doesn't exist.

1954
02:12:44,439 --> 02:12:46,920
But again, there are certain things that do exist that

1955
02:12:47,000 --> 02:12:47,399
you can.

1956
02:12:47,479 --> 02:12:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly your mind.

1957
02:12:48,680 --> 02:12:52,880
Speaker 3: Well you make that distinction, not concretely, because it's not physical.

1958
02:12:53,640 --> 02:12:57,119
Speaker 2: Right. So, for example, there's a mental distinction between calling

1959
02:12:57,239 --> 02:13:00,800
Christ the vine and calling him the door. That's something

1960
02:13:00,840 --> 02:13:05,119
that's only in conception. Christ doesn't really metaphysically in one

1961
02:13:05,159 --> 02:13:08,279
sense adore in another sense metaphysically a vine. Obviously that's

1962
02:13:08,319 --> 02:13:11,960
a mental, conceptual distinction. But Katapinoia, the same phrase is

1963
02:13:12,079 --> 02:13:14,600
used of the persons of the triad. It's use of

1964
02:13:14,640 --> 02:13:17,680
the two natures in Christ. So does that mean that

1965
02:13:17,720 --> 02:13:20,039
there's not really two natures in Christ? There's not really

1966
02:13:20,039 --> 02:13:22,600
three persons that are only mentally distinguished. It's how stupid

1967
02:13:22,640 --> 02:13:22,960
this is.

1968
02:13:25,159 --> 02:13:31,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, all right, we'll move on. Saint Basil warning two

1969
02:13:31,600 --> 02:13:36,159
quote minors. So this is Saint Basil speaking to the Orientals.

1970
02:13:37,520 --> 02:13:40,600
I think everything he says is part of his plot here.

1971
02:13:40,680 --> 02:13:45,960
He's talking about Eunomius. This is from his book Against Eunomius.

1972
02:13:46,239 --> 02:13:48,359
I think everything he says, is part of his plot.

1973
02:13:48,640 --> 02:13:51,800
On the one hand, he keeps silent about his own ideas,

1974
02:13:52,199 --> 02:13:55,800
lest he make himself unconvincing and hard to accept by

1975
02:13:55,840 --> 02:14:00,000
actually presenting them to untrained ears. On the other hand,

1976
02:14:00,039 --> 02:14:02,600
and he puts forward the faith of the Fathers as

1977
02:14:02,600 --> 02:14:07,960
a defense. Because this faith contains ambiguous words, it will

1978
02:14:08,000 --> 02:14:10,680
not be an obstacle to the argument of his own

1979
02:14:10,760 --> 02:14:14,880
treatise and will easily lend itself to having its meaning

1980
02:14:15,079 --> 02:14:19,359
changed by him under the guise of explaining it to

1981
02:14:19,439 --> 02:14:24,680
whatever he wants. In other words, pick something that the

1982
02:14:24,720 --> 02:14:29,720
father said and give your own explanation, because you're relying

1983
02:14:29,760 --> 02:14:32,039
on the ignorance of the person that you're talking to.

1984
02:14:33,199 --> 02:14:37,359
That's basically what Saint Basil is saying the Eunomius is doing.

1985
02:14:37,439 --> 02:14:43,479
And this is how Eunomius is convincing Christians of his

1986
02:14:43,600 --> 02:14:47,439
position is because they're ignorant of it, and he's framing

1987
02:14:47,479 --> 02:14:53,880
it and using the language of previous fathers. Okay, and

1988
02:14:53,920 --> 02:14:57,560
this is exactly what the Orientals do. This is exactly

1989
02:14:57,760 --> 02:15:03,279
what Saint Basil is warning against. And when you read

1990
02:15:03,359 --> 02:15:06,399
Saint Basil, and not just Saint Basil against Eunomius, when

1991
02:15:06,399 --> 02:15:11,119
you read Saint Gregory's Treatise against Eunomius, that is all

1992
02:15:11,159 --> 02:15:16,479
basically philosophy and metaphysics to refute his position. This is

1993
02:15:16,960 --> 02:15:21,279
the way he's couching the theology of his predecessors, the

1994
02:15:21,359 --> 02:15:26,039
Church fathers. Okay, and that's what you need. Don't listen

1995
02:15:26,439 --> 02:15:32,720
to people who just simply read you a sentence and

1996
02:15:32,840 --> 02:15:35,800
don't want to give you an explanation, or just give

1997
02:15:35,840 --> 02:15:38,119
you an explanation to tickle your ears.

1998
02:15:38,840 --> 02:15:39,199
Speaker 6: Okay.

1999
02:15:39,640 --> 02:15:43,000
Speaker 5: You need a paradigm from those people, and you need

2000
02:15:43,039 --> 02:15:47,359
them to explain to you within the paradigm what it

2001
02:15:47,399 --> 02:15:53,680
is that they're saying. So all that that's just the preamble,

2002
02:15:54,239 --> 02:15:57,920
that is the introduction. This is setting the stage to

2003
02:15:58,079 --> 02:16:04,880
now get into the presentation proper, okay, And so part

2004
02:16:04,960 --> 02:16:10,039
one I'll call it Orthodox metaphysics, and it's broken down

2005
02:16:10,159 --> 02:16:15,199
into tritology, Christology, and sociology. And here we're going to

2006
02:16:15,239 --> 02:16:17,079
give we're going to flesh out a little bit more

2007
02:16:17,199 --> 02:16:20,079
the Orthodox position, and we're going to start fleshing out

2008
02:16:20,159 --> 02:16:30,319
the Orientals and the Nestorians, origin and monarchy of the Father.

2009
02:16:31,000 --> 02:16:35,760
This you will see basically what I have on this slide.

2010
02:16:35,799 --> 02:16:41,600
When you read sak kuber So. Origin gave divine ontological

2011
02:16:41,600 --> 02:16:46,319
status to the son via hypostasis, which makes the son

2012
02:16:46,559 --> 02:16:52,639
ontologically distinct from the Father. But in order to avoid

2013
02:16:52,920 --> 02:16:59,040
two first principles in God, Origin preempted the Cappadocians by

2014
02:16:59,120 --> 02:17:03,120
establishing the base idea of monarchy of the Father. And

2015
02:17:03,200 --> 02:17:07,319
he did this scripturally, and he relied on John one

2016
02:17:07,479 --> 02:17:13,040
one for this. Now, remember that Origin predates Arius, he

2017
02:17:13,079 --> 02:17:17,319
predates the Ecumenical Council in Icea, and the same essence

2018
02:17:17,399 --> 02:17:23,399
or homo ussios metaphysics of the Compadocians. So his scriptural

2019
02:17:23,479 --> 02:17:29,200
reliance on John one one was to recognize that the

2020
02:17:29,280 --> 02:17:36,760
logos is predicated with divinity theos, but without the definite

2021
02:17:36,879 --> 02:17:42,040
article all autheos. So even though the Son is divine,

2022
02:17:42,600 --> 02:17:46,079
he is not a first principle, and the Father remains

2023
02:17:46,120 --> 02:17:50,159
the first principle because scripturally it is the Father who

2024
02:17:50,200 --> 02:17:54,760
is predicated with the divine with the definite article autheos. Therefore,

2025
02:17:54,879 --> 02:17:59,479
the son derives his divinity from the Father. That's basically

2026
02:17:59,719 --> 02:18:07,719
Or's line of argumentation. But because Origin lacked the homousios

2027
02:18:07,799 --> 02:18:13,239
metaphysics metaphysical preciseness that the Cappadocians would later come to develop.

2028
02:18:14,079 --> 02:18:17,479
He was accused by some, and Zach Couber points this out,

2029
02:18:17,719 --> 02:18:22,040
by Saint Apophanius of Salamis and Saint Jerome, of basically

2030
02:18:22,079 --> 02:18:27,200
promoting a form of ontological subordination of the son to

2031
02:18:27,399 --> 02:18:31,799
the Father. I use some kind of proto arianism. So

2032
02:18:32,040 --> 02:18:36,959
even though you have, through the usage of hypostasis, this

2033
02:18:37,360 --> 02:18:42,399
real distinction between father and son, he was accused of

2034
02:18:42,479 --> 02:18:49,879
basically promoting an aryan Esque type distinction. Now, the metaphysics

2035
02:18:49,920 --> 02:18:56,920
of hippostasis is common ground for Orthodoxy and arianism against modalism,

2036
02:18:57,760 --> 02:19:02,319
because modalism will just say that the God is one

2037
02:19:02,479 --> 02:19:06,360
hypostasis in a concrete existence, if you will, with the

2038
02:19:06,399 --> 02:19:12,520
Father's Son and Holy Spirit basically being different modes. But

2039
02:19:12,639 --> 02:19:16,959
it is the metaphysics of essence that distinguishes between orthodoxy

2040
02:19:17,079 --> 02:19:21,840
and arianism, which ironically is common ground for orthodoxy and

2041
02:19:21,879 --> 02:19:27,959
modalism against arianism. So what we see here is the

2042
02:19:28,079 --> 02:19:35,840
combined metaphysics of essence and hypostasis that distinguishes Orthodoxy from

2043
02:19:35,920 --> 02:19:37,239
both just moralism.

2044
02:19:37,520 --> 02:19:41,840
Speaker 2: Brie question, is this from the early pages of like

2045
02:19:41,959 --> 02:19:46,239
twenty five where it's talking to origin and hypostasis, And yes, okay,

2046
02:19:46,360 --> 02:19:46,840
just making sure.

2047
02:19:46,879 --> 02:19:50,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, so yeah, I didn't put the exact references, lifting

2048
02:19:50,280 --> 02:19:53,399
any quotes per se. I'm just these are the ideas,

2049
02:19:53,479 --> 02:19:56,680
and but they're in zactly in the early early pages

2050
02:19:56,680 --> 02:20:01,639
when zach Kuber is basically tracing the historic progression, the

2051
02:20:01,639 --> 02:20:06,840
metaphysical progression up to the Cappadocians, and so then this

2052
02:20:07,280 --> 02:20:14,559
combined metaphysics of essence and hypostasis of orthodoxy is the

2053
02:20:14,600 --> 02:20:26,680
basis for Cappadocian metaphysics. Okay, the Eunomian premise. Eunomians are

2054
02:20:26,680 --> 02:20:31,040
on the extreme spectrum of arians who maintained that the

2055
02:20:31,040 --> 02:20:37,559
father and son are completely different in essence. And the

2056
02:20:37,600 --> 02:20:41,840
Eunomian premise can be stated in various ways, but for

2057
02:20:42,000 --> 02:20:44,879
our purposes we're going to formulate it as the following

2058
02:20:46,600 --> 02:20:54,239
saiety is essential to the divine essence. In other words,

2059
02:20:54,280 --> 02:20:59,799
to be divine is to be a say. Another way

2060
02:20:59,840 --> 02:21:04,040
of formulating it is to say that it is impossible

2061
02:21:04,120 --> 02:21:08,239
to have the divine nature and be ab alio or

2062
02:21:08,520 --> 02:21:14,159
from another. The consequence of the Unomian premise is that

2063
02:21:14,200 --> 02:21:18,520
since the son is begotten of the father, meaning the

2064
02:21:18,559 --> 02:21:23,440
son is not Assay but is from another ab Alio,

2065
02:21:24,079 --> 02:21:28,959
then by necessity, he cannot be of the same essence

2066
02:21:29,200 --> 02:21:34,760
of Mousius as the Father. In other words, a saiety

2067
02:21:35,040 --> 02:21:40,479
is then considered a natural property and not a hippostatic property,

2068
02:21:41,200 --> 02:21:46,760
and that's contrary to the Orthodox position. Moreover, the issue

2069
02:21:46,840 --> 02:21:52,799
is additionally compounded in two ways by not distinguishing between

2070
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:58,280
nature and person. In other words, the person is confused

2071
02:21:58,399 --> 02:22:03,200
with the nature, and this is a fallacy we see

2072
02:22:03,360 --> 02:22:09,440
Muslims commit time and time again when discussing Christian theology.

2073
02:22:10,399 --> 02:22:15,280
For example, their objection of quote unquote divinity dying on

2074
02:22:15,360 --> 02:22:22,600
the cross fails to grasp that divinity does not die.

2075
02:22:22,799 --> 02:22:28,239
Natures don't die. Rather, persons die. It was Christ who

2076
02:22:28,280 --> 02:22:32,239
died on the cross, not divinity. Christ is a person,

2077
02:22:32,760 --> 02:22:34,639
Divinity is a nature.

2078
02:22:36,239 --> 02:22:36,680
Speaker 6: And then the.

2079
02:22:36,680 --> 02:22:43,440
Speaker 5: Second point is giving the divine essence ontological priority over

2080
02:22:43,479 --> 02:22:48,079
the divine persons. In this case, one first speaks of

2081
02:22:48,120 --> 02:22:54,680
the divine essence, which is then instantiated by hypostasis, and

2082
02:22:54,719 --> 02:22:57,559
this is contrary to Orthodoxy. But this is what you

2083
02:22:57,639 --> 02:23:03,040
see happen in Roman Catholicism. For the Orthodox, the divine

2084
02:23:03,120 --> 02:23:07,760
hypostasis are divined precisely because it is their nature to

2085
02:23:07,799 --> 02:23:13,639
be divine and not because they instantiate and ontologically pre

2086
02:23:13,799 --> 02:23:18,840
existing divine essence in some kind of cascading ontology. Rather,

2087
02:23:19,159 --> 02:23:24,239
they an hi posteitize divine nature, meaning they exist in

2088
02:23:24,319 --> 02:23:32,000
a mode proper to divinity. Let's look at an hipposthetization

2089
02:23:32,079 --> 02:23:37,920
and essence by some examples. So the mode in which

2090
02:23:37,959 --> 02:23:44,120
a nature is an hypostatized is not an intrinsic property

2091
02:23:44,200 --> 02:23:50,559
of that nature. So look at Adam. Adam anhi postetizes

2092
02:23:50,680 --> 02:23:55,719
human nature though he was created directly by God. But

2093
02:23:55,799 --> 02:24:01,000
we will say Adam is a human being. Hyph posthetizes

2094
02:24:01,079 --> 02:24:06,799
human nature though she proceeded from Adam, Eve as a

2095
02:24:06,879 --> 02:24:12,959
human being. Seth and hypostatizes human nature though he was

2096
02:24:13,040 --> 02:24:17,200
begotten of Adam and Eve. Seth is a human being.

2097
02:24:19,159 --> 02:24:24,959
Christ and high posthetizes human nature by incarnating Christ is

2098
02:24:25,000 --> 02:24:26,239
a human being.

2099
02:24:28,200 --> 02:24:28,959
Speaker 6: So if the.

2100
02:24:28,840 --> 02:24:35,120
Speaker 5: Manner of an hi posthetization is intrinsic to nature, then Adam, Eve,

2101
02:24:35,239 --> 02:24:38,920
Sat in Christ would not all share in the same

2102
02:24:39,559 --> 02:24:45,600
human nature, meaning they would not be consubstantial.

2103
02:24:44,719 --> 02:24:45,399
Speaker 6: To each other.

2104
02:24:46,000 --> 02:24:49,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think sort for cutting up, but I think

2105
02:24:49,239 --> 02:24:52,239
like basically, I think the main point that we can

2106
02:24:52,239 --> 02:24:55,520
see here, First of all, in terms of h and hypostheization.

2107
02:24:57,879 --> 02:25:02,360
There's a way of fun like used as kind of

2108
02:25:02,440 --> 02:25:06,079
like in addition to certain terms like nusion or an

2109
02:25:06,159 --> 02:25:09,000
hyperestation kind of like makes the point that it is

2110
02:25:09,879 --> 02:25:14,040
something that it acquires in some sense. So, for example,

2111
02:25:14,479 --> 02:25:19,079
when something is high posthetized, it can be understood as particularized. Right.

2112
02:25:19,079 --> 02:25:23,680
So human nature is particularized in distinct ways. Addam particularized

2113
02:25:23,719 --> 02:25:26,760
in a distinct way compared to eve Seth in a

2114
02:25:26,840 --> 02:25:30,319
very unique way that designates and picks out him as

2115
02:25:30,360 --> 02:25:34,200
a unique subject of that nature. Right. And it's very

2116
02:25:34,239 --> 02:25:36,760
important to point this out in regards to the Eunomian

2117
02:25:36,799 --> 02:25:39,719
pramis because with Unomius, what we see is kind of

2118
02:25:39,719 --> 02:25:44,120
this idea that the mode in which something exists, the

2119
02:25:44,159 --> 02:25:46,959
mode in which it either comes to be, if it's created,

2120
02:25:47,079 --> 02:25:52,120
or in which it exists, right, it is not proper

2121
02:25:52,159 --> 02:25:55,239
to the nature of that thing, because what is property

2122
02:25:55,360 --> 02:25:57,319
nature of that thing is it can be understood by

2123
02:25:57,360 --> 02:26:01,440
the cause of properties, right, or you can observed empirically right,

2124
02:26:01,520 --> 02:26:04,079
Like when you observe a tree, you don't need to

2125
02:26:04,639 --> 02:26:08,639
know that it came from You know whether it's grew

2126
02:26:08,799 --> 02:26:11,559
naturally or it was planted by someone. You don't need

2127
02:26:11,600 --> 02:26:13,000
to know these things. You know, a tree is a

2128
02:26:13,040 --> 02:26:16,440
tree by its causal properties, by empirical observation. Same thing

2129
02:26:16,479 --> 02:26:18,920
with a chair, same thing with natural objects, and same

2130
02:26:18,920 --> 02:26:22,159
thing with human beings. Right, and even like when you

2131
02:26:22,200 --> 02:26:25,479
look at different human beings, right, you know, nine point

2132
02:26:25,559 --> 02:26:27,840
nine percent of human beings in history have all been

2133
02:26:28,159 --> 02:26:31,200
born by their mothers. But even then it's still by

2134
02:26:31,200 --> 02:26:36,959
different mothers, right, So it showcases that this demonstrates they're

2135
02:26:37,040 --> 02:26:41,120
distinct personal So this is important to understand that there's

2136
02:26:41,120 --> 02:26:43,840
a distinction again between nature and person for this reason,

2137
02:26:43,879 --> 02:26:46,520
it's not just something that we say as a line.

2138
02:26:46,959 --> 02:26:49,680
This is why it's fundamentally important to make this distinction

2139
02:26:50,159 --> 02:26:54,159
and also to refine this this is distinction in a

2140
02:26:54,239 --> 02:26:57,399
way where it doesn't lead to other forms of collapsing

2141
02:26:57,440 --> 02:27:00,280
the distinction between the two because one way people is

2142
02:27:00,360 --> 02:27:02,360
kind of just oh, you know, a person is just

2143
02:27:02,959 --> 02:27:06,399
a particularization that's it of that nature. That's actually more

2144
02:27:06,399 --> 02:27:08,799
than that, it's very the particularizational cures.

2145
02:27:09,559 --> 02:27:09,760
Speaker 2: Right.

2146
02:27:11,159 --> 02:27:15,479
Speaker 3: So that's also the point that kay Want I think

2147
02:27:15,600 --> 02:27:17,760
what's make when he talks about like the divine essence

2148
02:27:17,760 --> 02:27:21,879
and the ontological priority, right, divine person's the person's person.

2149
02:27:21,920 --> 02:27:23,559
That is where we you know, God as father is

2150
02:27:23,559 --> 02:27:26,360
where we start with our theology. And is it fine

2151
02:27:26,399 --> 02:27:30,040
if but yeah, that's basically pretty much I wanted to add.

2152
02:27:30,760 --> 02:27:32,959
Speaker 6: Yeah, basically the.

2153
02:27:33,280 --> 02:27:34,959
Speaker 2: I have something I want to say here, you don't mind,

2154
02:27:35,040 --> 02:27:39,719
go ahead? Yeah, for those that need to refresher if

2155
02:27:39,719 --> 02:27:44,440
you don't remember, this will definitely help people new to

2156
02:27:44,479 --> 02:27:49,760
this topic or whatever. So in hypostatize refers to the

2157
02:27:49,879 --> 02:27:53,440
mode and there's some key points in terms. We want

2158
02:27:53,440 --> 02:27:55,600
to remember what they mean. If you're new to this topic.

2159
02:27:55,959 --> 02:27:58,959
And even if you are, you know, Oriental, you disagree

2160
02:27:58,959 --> 02:28:00,600
with us, at least you want to know how we

2161
02:28:00,719 --> 02:28:06,440
understand these terms, even if you disagree, and so writing

2162
02:28:06,440 --> 02:28:10,639
this on this whiteboard here, so if you look here

2163
02:28:11,639 --> 02:28:15,760
for us, remember that nature is answering the question of

2164
02:28:15,799 --> 02:28:19,079
what a thing is right? What is the nature? What

2165
02:28:19,200 --> 02:28:21,159
is that makes that thing that thing and not some

2166
02:28:21,280 --> 02:28:25,200
other thing? Person answers the question of who who is

2167
02:28:25,239 --> 02:28:28,600
the one doing this act or doing that thing right?

2168
02:28:29,799 --> 02:28:33,600
In hypostatize is a reference to the mode in which

2169
02:28:33,719 --> 02:28:37,159
this nature exists, which is in the person. So the

2170
02:28:37,200 --> 02:28:40,200
whattoness of a thing is not abstract that exists in

2171
02:28:40,280 --> 02:28:42,879
the persons that have that nature. But remember there's a

2172
02:28:42,879 --> 02:28:45,639
distinction between nature and person. This is how we get trinity.

2173
02:28:45,959 --> 02:28:48,719
There's not a distinction between nature and person. If they're

2174
02:28:48,799 --> 02:28:52,399
essentially collapsed, then we're modalists and we're not really trinitarian.

2175
02:28:53,159 --> 02:28:57,079
In hypostatize refers to the mode in which the hypostasis

2176
02:28:58,000 --> 02:29:01,959
instantiates that nature. Right, nature always exists in the mode

2177
02:29:02,079 --> 02:29:05,479
of the persons that have that nature. In hypostatic, and

2178
02:29:05,520 --> 02:29:08,559
this is true both of humans and of the triad.

2179
02:29:09,280 --> 02:29:13,920
Energy refers to the operations of this being that acts.

2180
02:29:14,520 --> 02:29:19,360
Energies signify the nature in which they're grounded, but the

2181
02:29:19,399 --> 02:29:23,959
mode in which this happens is the person that in

2182
02:29:24,079 --> 02:29:28,760
hypostatically acts. So energies are said to be in hypostatic

2183
02:29:28,879 --> 02:29:34,200
as well, because they are proceeding from the nature that

2184
02:29:34,239 --> 02:29:36,280
the person has that's acting.

2185
02:29:38,719 --> 02:29:42,559
Speaker 5: Yeah great, Thanks so much, Jay. I think everyone appreciates

2186
02:29:42,600 --> 02:29:48,600
the whiteboard. I certainly do. But the thrust here basically

2187
02:29:48,639 --> 02:29:49,280
where I'm getting.

2188
02:29:49,600 --> 02:29:52,360
Speaker 2: And one last point, I'm sory. I'm sorry I forgot

2189
02:29:52,399 --> 02:29:54,719
to mention too. For those that are interested, if you

2190
02:29:54,799 --> 02:29:57,920
have free choice in Saint Maximus, I think it's chapter five,

2191
02:29:58,920 --> 02:30:04,520
where tropos or mode comes to the four in Christology.

2192
02:30:05,000 --> 02:30:07,639
So I'm not saying it doesn't have any existence. Prior

2193
02:30:07,719 --> 02:30:11,719
to this, certainly mode is discussed, but it really becomes

2194
02:30:11,760 --> 02:30:16,079
important when Maximus is debating with the monothelites and the

2195
02:30:16,079 --> 02:30:18,920
mono energists, because he needs a way to explain that

2196
02:30:19,040 --> 02:30:24,840
although yes, it's true that will and energy are grounded

2197
02:30:24,879 --> 02:30:28,639
in nature, it's not natures that act, it's persons with

2198
02:30:28,840 --> 02:30:32,559
natures that act. And that's a key component that he

2199
02:30:32,639 --> 02:30:36,719
needs in his arsenal, his toolkit to refute the monothelites

2200
02:30:37,040 --> 02:30:40,040
and the monophesites. And this is why it's very important

2201
02:30:40,079 --> 02:30:45,079
to also understand mode in Trinitarian theology too. For example,

2202
02:30:45,840 --> 02:30:49,600
we spoke earlier about well, who's becoming incarnate. It's not

2203
02:30:49,639 --> 02:30:52,799
the entire Trinity, it's not the Father, it's not the Spirit.

2204
02:30:53,319 --> 02:30:57,600
So you need some kind of metaphysical toolkit which allows

2205
02:30:57,639 --> 02:31:02,840
you to say consistently, one hypostasis of the Trinity is

2206
02:31:02,959 --> 02:31:05,239
entering into a mode of being that the other two

2207
02:31:05,319 --> 02:31:09,399
are not. And only by having a theology of mode

2208
02:31:09,799 --> 02:31:14,040
of n hypostasis do you have a consistent presentation of that.

2209
02:31:15,239 --> 02:31:17,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, and this is actually what you're talking about.

2210
02:31:17,399 --> 02:31:20,520
Speaker 5: Now, that is exactly some of the stuff that is

2211
02:31:20,559 --> 02:31:23,399
going to comprise Part two when we're talking about people's

2212
02:31:24,079 --> 02:31:28,639
composite epostasis and the essence energy is distinction. But now,

2213
02:31:28,680 --> 02:31:31,000
just to sum up here where I'm going with the

2214
02:31:31,079 --> 02:31:35,360
n hypostatization, this slide is this is very important to

2215
02:31:35,479 --> 02:31:42,360
understand because of the consubstantiality, because basically what's happening here

2216
02:31:43,000 --> 02:31:52,040
is if the nature is what it picks out the

2217
02:31:52,479 --> 02:31:58,639
divinity of like sorry, I'll say any beginning inspirating not

2218
02:31:58,760 --> 02:32:02,360
being intrinsic to the by nature, but our hippostatic properties

2219
02:32:02,360 --> 02:32:06,120
that they delineate how the divine natures and hypostatize respectively

2220
02:32:06,719 --> 02:32:11,000
by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But if Father and

2221
02:32:11,120 --> 02:32:14,879
Son were not of the same essence due to their

2222
02:32:15,000 --> 02:32:21,360
respective existence and hypostatizations, then by the Eunomian premise, they're

2223
02:32:21,440 --> 02:32:25,920
not going to be consubstantial to each other. And this

2224
02:32:26,159 --> 02:32:30,000
is important because now what we're seeing here, how you're

2225
02:32:30,159 --> 02:32:34,920
understanding your triadology is now going to affect your Christology

2226
02:32:35,280 --> 02:32:40,159
because now when you're affecting how you understand consubstantiality, it

2227
02:32:40,520 --> 02:32:45,000
changes how Christ is understood to be a mediator of

2228
02:32:45,040 --> 02:32:45,760
our salvation.

2229
02:32:47,120 --> 02:32:50,159
Speaker 6: Okay.

2230
02:32:50,719 --> 02:32:57,559
Speaker 5: The Eunomian premis is basically what Muslims advance as an

2231
02:32:57,719 --> 02:33:02,239
Aryan type argument in order to deny the Holy Trinity.

2232
02:33:02,920 --> 02:33:09,559
And it's very important to point out that no one

2233
02:33:09,840 --> 02:33:17,840
since its inception has ever been able to provide a

2234
02:33:17,959 --> 02:33:27,600
logical proof for the Eunomian premise. It's postulated but has

2235
02:33:27,719 --> 02:33:35,840
never been proven. On the flip side, the Holy Trinity

2236
02:33:35,920 --> 02:33:46,680
is formulated by the Orthodox paradigm has never been logically disproven,

2237
02:33:46,840 --> 02:33:51,479
and I urge everybody to look at doctor bo Branson's

2238
02:33:51,520 --> 02:33:56,760
work for demonstration using modal logic that monarchy of the

2239
02:33:56,799 --> 02:34:03,719
Father trinitarianism. What Orthodox he puts forward is logically coherent.

2240
02:34:04,360 --> 02:34:06,879
Speaker 2: Also the debate with Jake, because that whole debate is

2241
02:34:06,920 --> 02:34:10,079
about this topic, and you see Jake falter and collapse when.

2242
02:34:09,959 --> 02:34:13,000
Speaker 5: This is absolutely And I was just about to actually

2243
02:34:13,040 --> 02:34:20,120
mention Jake the Muslim metamorn he and I've challenged him

2244
02:34:20,559 --> 02:34:28,079
directly use modal logic to prove the Eunomian premise, and

2245
02:34:28,120 --> 02:34:35,000
he won't because he can't. The moment, you can use

2246
02:34:35,040 --> 02:34:39,680
modal logic and demonstrate a logical proof for the Eunomian

2247
02:34:39,719 --> 02:34:47,120
premise that single handedly destroys Orthodoxy. And this guy calling

2248
02:34:47,200 --> 02:34:52,280
himself the metaphysician who can't even do a first year

2249
02:34:52,399 --> 02:34:59,000
undergrad truth table as doctor bo Branson absolutely humiliated him.

2250
02:35:01,239 --> 02:35:05,719
He cannot make a logical case against the Trinity. It's

2251
02:35:05,760 --> 02:35:10,280
all just sophistry coming from him. But this reaches a

2252
02:35:10,280 --> 02:35:14,280
different point, is that if you're willing to acknowledge the

2253
02:35:14,319 --> 02:35:21,920
merits and superiority of Orthodox theology over Islamic theology, then

2254
02:35:22,200 --> 02:35:30,000
be consistent and compare other Christian formulations against Orthodoxy. Compare

2255
02:35:30,440 --> 02:35:37,840
Oriental metaphysics versus Orthodox metaphysics. Compare Church of the East

2256
02:35:38,239 --> 02:35:44,799
metaphysics against Orthodox metaphysics. Don't give me this garbage. We

2257
02:35:44,840 --> 02:35:50,840
should all unite against Islam. Orthodoxy doesn't need your help.

2258
02:35:52,200 --> 02:35:57,239
Orthodoxy has always been fighting Islam. If you contribute to

2259
02:35:57,280 --> 02:36:01,319
that fight against Islam, great. We're not saying that you

2260
02:36:01,360 --> 02:36:06,239
haven't produced anything useful, but we're not going to compromise

2261
02:36:06,479 --> 02:36:13,159
ourselves under this umbrella of Christianity against Islam. We will

2262
02:36:13,319 --> 02:36:16,879
fight the wolf in sheep's clothing. And it's actually the

2263
02:36:16,920 --> 02:36:20,719
wolf in sheep's clothing that is much more dangerous than

2264
02:36:21,000 --> 02:36:24,639
the overt threat that we see. We see the Muslims.

2265
02:36:24,760 --> 02:36:30,040
We see the Islam, we see their jihad. But when

2266
02:36:30,280 --> 02:36:36,719
we're not careful of who's in our backyard pretending to

2267
02:36:36,760 --> 02:36:41,040
be one of us, you get people like Marmari duping

2268
02:36:41,079 --> 02:36:48,760
his followers, duping Orthodox Christians to think that these discussions

2269
02:36:48,760 --> 02:36:53,399
that we're having are irrelevant. They are not irrelevant. They

2270
02:36:53,440 --> 02:36:55,959
are at the heart of our history, They're part of

2271
02:36:56,040 --> 02:36:59,959
our tradition, and it would be an insult to our

2272
02:37:00,120 --> 02:37:04,159
saints that we would say, oh, doesn't really matter.

2273
02:37:04,200 --> 02:37:06,760
Speaker 2: By the way, if they're irrelevant, we why don't everybody

2274
02:37:06,959 --> 02:37:08,079
just come to the Orthodox Church.

2275
02:37:08,760 --> 02:37:09,680
Speaker 6: Well, that's what I keep saying.

2276
02:37:10,559 --> 02:37:12,200
Speaker 2: Come over to our church and we'll be on the

2277
02:37:12,239 --> 02:37:14,120
same sci fi and together, I mean.

2278
02:37:14,120 --> 02:37:14,760
Speaker 6: And it's not, it's all.

2279
02:37:14,799 --> 02:37:20,040
Speaker 5: There's like, you see how effective we are against against

2280
02:37:20,120 --> 02:37:25,040
islams IS's attack against us, We can defend it. You

2281
02:37:25,159 --> 02:37:32,200
get Muslims like Jake completely destroys Protestants, and he should,

2282
02:37:32,840 --> 02:37:37,760
he should expose how stupid Protestant theology is, how stupidly

2283
02:37:37,840 --> 02:37:43,079
incoherent Protestant theology is. But one thing you've never seen

2284
02:37:43,200 --> 02:37:46,879
Jake do is destroy Orthodoxy. One thing you've never seen

2285
02:37:46,920 --> 02:37:52,319
Mohammed Hijab do is destroy Orthodoxy. One thing that will

2286
02:37:52,399 --> 02:37:55,639
never happen is you'll never see You'll never you will

2287
02:37:55,680 --> 02:38:00,280
never see Daniel Kikikachu destroy Orthodoxy. None of those clowns

2288
02:38:00,440 --> 02:38:06,440
can take on Orthodoxy. We have a superior metaphysical system

2289
02:38:06,680 --> 02:38:11,079
that is coherent, that makes sense and can withstand every

2290
02:38:11,159 --> 02:38:15,520
single scrutinization thrown at it. The Orientals and the Church

2291
02:38:15,520 --> 02:38:18,239
of the East can't. And we are going to destroy

2292
02:38:18,600 --> 02:38:21,520
the Oriental and Church of the East metaphysics and show

2293
02:38:21,600 --> 02:38:24,239
you how stupidly incoherent they are.

2294
02:38:26,159 --> 02:38:28,799
Speaker 3: I'd also like to point out like this kind of

2295
02:38:29,520 --> 02:38:33,280
like view of like just uniting into one banner, and

2296
02:38:33,319 --> 02:38:37,280
so you know, it sounds nice, but then you are

2297
02:38:37,399 --> 02:38:43,399
challenged with a specific objection that isn't really proper to

2298
02:38:43,479 --> 02:38:48,200
your tradition, your views, Like, for example, if you're not

2299
02:38:48,239 --> 02:38:50,799
beholden to the idea that the Trinity is just three

2300
02:38:50,920 --> 02:38:54,399
particular natures. For example, as Orthodox we're not, that's not

2301
02:38:54,440 --> 02:38:57,079
what we believe. But if you're an offside or Church

2302
02:38:57,079 --> 02:38:59,760
of the East, that is actually kind of what you believe.

2303
02:39:00,159 --> 02:39:04,239
That's how we get got the triteism controversy, right, you're

2304
02:39:04,239 --> 02:39:06,479
not beholden too. But if you get that criticism, like,

2305
02:39:06,479 --> 02:39:08,239
what are you going to do? Right Like, that's where

2306
02:39:08,239 --> 02:39:11,360
you're going to differentiate yourself from the decider if it's

2307
02:39:11,360 --> 02:39:14,399
about Christology, right like when you speak about you know,

2308
02:39:14,399 --> 02:39:16,760
pointing out the scripture says, you know, this is spoken

2309
02:39:16,799 --> 02:39:19,360
reference to his human nature, which is distinct from his divinity.

2310
02:39:19,799 --> 02:39:22,120
Suddenly you know, it's going to open up a can

2311
02:39:22,159 --> 02:39:24,760
of worms, right So you can pretend it doesn't exist,

2312
02:39:24,799 --> 02:39:28,639
but it's going to make itself known at some point.

2313
02:39:28,719 --> 02:39:31,319
So I don't really see it that as it sounds nice,

2314
02:39:31,399 --> 02:39:34,440
but it doesn't does not realistic. And if there's a

2315
02:39:34,520 --> 02:39:37,319
real desire for the unity of Christians, I mean I

2316
02:39:37,360 --> 02:39:40,159
think the Orthodox churches were the only place that's going

2317
02:39:40,239 --> 02:39:44,239
to happen. So yeah, that's basically yeah, what I want

2318
02:39:44,280 --> 02:39:44,920
to add.

2319
02:39:46,200 --> 02:39:47,959
Speaker 6: Very much appreciated, David. Thank you.

2320
02:39:48,639 --> 02:39:50,799
Speaker 5: So now we get a series of slides, a lot

2321
02:39:50,840 --> 02:39:57,799
of small text, but very very very important. David, feel

2322
02:39:57,840 --> 02:40:00,200
fee to chime in, Jay, feel feed to try I'm

2323
02:40:00,239 --> 02:40:00,799
in here.

2324
02:40:00,719 --> 02:40:05,000
Speaker 3: Is yeah maybe is it fine? Like because I mean

2325
02:40:05,600 --> 02:40:09,879
like you because like for me, when I like when

2326
02:40:09,920 --> 02:40:13,040
I stream whenever I stream, like speak for one and

2327
02:40:13,040 --> 02:40:17,319
a half hours, I get you know, you're a juggernaut maybe,

2328
02:40:17,360 --> 02:40:19,879
you know, I think it will be good, Like we

2329
02:40:19,959 --> 02:40:23,319
will like rotate as well with the capitoc in metaphysics

2330
02:40:23,319 --> 02:40:25,639
because I think it's going to be really relevant and

2331
02:40:25,799 --> 02:40:28,280
the points that he wants to add, like does that

2332
02:40:28,360 --> 02:40:29,159
does that work with you?

2333
02:40:29,239 --> 02:40:29,479
Speaker 6: Kai?

2334
02:40:30,319 --> 02:40:31,600
Speaker 3: I'm fine with you, Like.

2335
02:40:31,760 --> 02:40:33,879
Speaker 5: You want to just speak whatever, Like we can leave

2336
02:40:33,920 --> 02:40:34,680
the slide up.

2337
02:40:34,639 --> 02:40:37,399
Speaker 3: People care like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, talk.

2338
02:40:37,239 --> 02:40:38,440
Speaker 5: And then I'll just throw in whatever.

2339
02:40:38,479 --> 02:40:41,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm fine with that, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. So I

2340
02:40:41,760 --> 02:40:44,559
think in terms of like what we see in capitoc

2341
02:40:44,600 --> 02:40:47,159
in metaphysics, especially if you read the book that we've

2342
02:40:47,200 --> 02:40:50,520
been referencing so much, right from Johannes Kuber, The Rise

2343
02:40:50,559 --> 02:40:53,399
of a Christian Theology and the End of Ancient Metaphysics,

2344
02:40:53,440 --> 02:40:55,719
this is pointed out and there's this kind of basic

2345
02:40:56,040 --> 02:41:00,600
metaphysical structure you see with the cappadocciin Fathers of you know,

2346
02:41:00,680 --> 02:41:04,639
you have this one divinity or you want to say,

2347
02:41:04,639 --> 02:41:09,200
divine nature that subsists in the three distinct persons Father, Son,

2348
02:41:09,239 --> 02:41:12,959
Holy Spirit, right, and so they are of the same essence,

2349
02:41:13,040 --> 02:41:15,799
which means they have the same natural properties, properties that

2350
02:41:15,840 --> 02:41:18,639
are proper to the divine nature. So being Lord being God,

2351
02:41:19,600 --> 02:41:25,040
being Creator, being provident omissions on the benevolence. The Father,

2352
02:41:25,079 --> 02:41:28,079
Son and Holy Spirit have them in it's identical right.

2353
02:41:28,120 --> 02:41:33,079
There's no differentiation between them in terms of these natural properties,

2354
02:41:33,079 --> 02:41:35,040
which is what makes them want God. What makes them

2355
02:41:35,079 --> 02:41:38,559
distinct is the mode in which they are, in the

2356
02:41:38,600 --> 02:41:40,840
modes in which they exist. The Father exists as I

2357
02:41:41,040 --> 02:41:45,000
say begotten. The Son exists as begotten of the Father.

2358
02:41:45,040 --> 02:41:47,520
The Holy Spirit exists as proceeding from the Father. Right,

2359
02:41:47,520 --> 02:41:50,040
that's the basic structure that we see. And as we've

2360
02:41:50,040 --> 02:41:52,920
seen with the Youunomian premise that the Sun is begotten

2361
02:41:52,920 --> 02:41:54,639
of the Father and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from

2362
02:41:54,680 --> 02:41:59,399
the Father does not result in subordinationism. It just means

2363
02:41:59,399 --> 02:42:01,680
that they are this dict persons. They're distinct there and

2364
02:42:01,799 --> 02:42:05,239
high posthetize in distinct ways. And so although they do

2365
02:42:05,280 --> 02:42:08,959
the same activity, it's in high posthetize and distinct ways.

2366
02:42:09,280 --> 02:42:11,239
Everything is from the Father because he's the source of

2367
02:42:11,280 --> 02:42:14,319
divinity of Saintian this Hysteria Africa says true the Son

2368
02:42:14,360 --> 02:42:17,440
because he's the image of the Father in the Holy Spirit. Right,

2369
02:42:18,520 --> 02:42:21,760
and this is this is what Rome's level thirty six sss. Right,

2370
02:42:21,799 --> 02:42:25,000
So this is kind of like the basic Trinitarian structure,

2371
02:42:25,760 --> 02:42:28,719
a Trinitarian structure that confesses one divinity of the fathers

2372
02:42:28,760 --> 02:42:32,120
on Holy Spirit. And it's important to point out, as

2373
02:42:32,200 --> 02:42:36,000
Kai you know, has hinted at in this presentation, that

2374
02:42:36,520 --> 02:42:39,040
we don't subscribe to this idea that the persons of

2375
02:42:39,040 --> 02:42:41,760
the Trinity are just particular natures. Otherwise you will have

2376
02:42:41,840 --> 02:42:46,799
three particular natures, so three natures, so three gods, which

2377
02:42:47,479 --> 02:42:51,239
will vindicate the you know, Islamic arguments against the Trinity.

2378
02:42:51,360 --> 02:42:55,239
That was the case. But when me speak about again

2379
02:42:55,239 --> 02:42:57,280
a photos on Holy Spirit, we make it again the distinction,

2380
02:42:57,360 --> 02:43:02,360
the crucial distinction of nature in person. Right, So hypostasis

2381
02:43:02,360 --> 02:43:04,760
is distinct from nature, which is why hypostatis are not

2382
02:43:04,959 --> 02:43:09,559
particular natures. It is ver the particularization again the hypostasis

2383
02:43:09,639 --> 02:43:15,120
where the particularization occurs. But they are distinct from nature,

2384
02:43:15,159 --> 02:43:17,440
as you said. And so this is the kind of

2385
02:43:18,079 --> 02:43:21,760
the basis, the basics of Cappadoccian metaphysics that's introduced by

2386
02:43:21,840 --> 02:43:24,799
the Capitocan fathers saints, basically Great Saint Gregory two Elosian

2387
02:43:24,879 --> 02:43:29,200
Saint Gregrifnissa. And this is how they pretty much have

2388
02:43:29,719 --> 02:43:33,799
structured the trinitarian thinking of the Second Echemical Council, right,

2389
02:43:34,319 --> 02:43:36,559
and what we see in later councils, the Third Council,

2390
02:43:36,600 --> 02:43:39,040
the Fourth Council, the fifth to sixth, and even the seventh.

2391
02:43:39,319 --> 02:43:43,120
It's predicated on Cappadocian thinking, but it's applied to Christology

2392
02:43:43,159 --> 02:43:45,200
for the most part. Is what we're going to see here,

2393
02:43:45,239 --> 02:43:50,440
and pretty much orthodox Christology is based on what the

2394
02:43:50,479 --> 02:43:55,079
Cappadocian fathers teach, and this is applied inversely. That is,

2395
02:43:55,319 --> 02:43:58,079
you know, in the Trinity there's one nature, three persons,

2396
02:43:58,159 --> 02:44:00,920
but in Christ there's one person in two natures.

2397
02:44:01,000 --> 02:44:01,159
Speaker 2: Right.

2398
02:44:01,280 --> 02:44:04,159
Speaker 3: What the natures of divinity and humanity have in common

2399
02:44:04,760 --> 02:44:06,639
is the hype states of Christ. So that's kind of

2400
02:44:06,680 --> 02:44:09,280
what I want to get across it. I think it's

2401
02:44:09,399 --> 02:44:12,639
very important. It's going to be dependent, like the way

2402
02:44:12,719 --> 02:44:14,920
in which we understand the rest of the presentation is

2403
02:44:14,959 --> 02:44:18,399
going to be dependent fundamentally on this. And of course

2404
02:44:19,600 --> 02:44:23,479
there are different and wrong ways of understanding what the

2405
02:44:23,760 --> 02:44:28,000
Capitol Cain fathers teach. That is also important to avoid.

2406
02:44:28,000 --> 02:44:32,399
But this is the basic idea that we see from

2407
02:44:32,399 --> 02:44:36,360
the fourth Central capitolk in fathers. Is there anything you

2408
02:44:36,440 --> 02:44:39,040
guys wants to add j Kai or do you want

2409
02:44:39,079 --> 02:44:40,000
to I'm good with that.

2410
02:44:40,079 --> 02:44:43,440
Speaker 5: No you you really you knocked it out, unless Jay

2411
02:44:43,559 --> 02:44:44,760
wants to supplement.

2412
02:44:45,239 --> 02:44:47,280
Speaker 6: No, we're good. Let's just move on.

2413
02:44:48,920 --> 02:44:54,239
Speaker 5: So what we have at the core of Capitocian metaphysics,

2414
02:44:54,319 --> 02:45:00,399
so you have this monarchy of the father doctrine, and

2415
02:45:00,920 --> 02:45:04,280
we need to safeguard monarchy of the father and understand

2416
02:45:04,360 --> 02:45:10,399
the father is greater than son metaphysics in hypostasis language

2417
02:45:11,040 --> 02:45:17,799
and also preserve the ontological coordination the homousios the same essence.

2418
02:45:18,520 --> 02:45:21,680
And so when we look at Saint Basil the great

2419
02:45:22,959 --> 02:45:25,399
I'm just going to follow David's lead here and just

2420
02:45:25,399 --> 02:45:28,399
just say it in words rather than reading the quote. Basically,

2421
02:45:28,559 --> 02:45:32,479
what Saint Basil is saying here is the Father is

2422
02:45:32,559 --> 02:45:36,559
greater in the sense of being the first cause. So

2423
02:45:36,799 --> 02:45:40,239
in terms of being the source of the son's hypostasis,

2424
02:45:40,680 --> 02:45:47,079
he is greater in that sense. So we're not putting

2425
02:45:47,159 --> 02:45:52,079
any kind of degree to sen So like, how would

2426
02:45:52,120 --> 02:45:56,280
you say that the father is greater with regards to essence?

2427
02:45:57,360 --> 02:46:01,639
That doesn't make sense. So Saint Basil is clearly teaching

2428
02:46:02,120 --> 02:46:06,639
a nature person distinction. And so in what sense we

2429
02:46:06,920 --> 02:46:10,200
using the greater language. Is it with regards to essence

2430
02:46:10,440 --> 02:46:13,360
or is it with regards to person? And this is

2431
02:46:13,639 --> 02:46:16,559
where you see the Muslims make this mistake when they're

2432
02:46:16,600 --> 02:46:20,399
reading the New Testament and they say, you see Jesus

2433
02:46:20,440 --> 02:46:24,079
is saying the Father is greater than him, So Jesus

2434
02:46:24,120 --> 02:46:29,319
is not God because their understanding of scripture is this

2435
02:46:29,559 --> 02:46:36,840
naive oriental type mindset where they're looking at nature and

2436
02:46:36,879 --> 02:46:40,799
they're thinking the Father is greater in the sense of nature,

2437
02:46:41,200 --> 02:46:46,760
that the Father is divine and Jesus is human, and

2438
02:46:47,120 --> 02:46:50,799
obviously the divine nature is greater than the human nature.

2439
02:46:51,159 --> 02:46:53,559
So it's in that sense that the Father is greater

2440
02:46:53,639 --> 02:46:57,280
than the son, rather than to understand this in terms

2441
02:46:57,319 --> 02:47:02,079
of apostasis and the first cause and that Christ has

2442
02:47:02,200 --> 02:47:07,879
his begetting from the Father in hippostatic origin, and it's

2443
02:47:07,879 --> 02:47:10,799
in that sense that the Father is greater because the

2444
02:47:10,799 --> 02:47:13,799
son doesn't beget the Father, the Father begets the son.

2445
02:47:14,559 --> 02:47:17,440
That's basically what Saint Basil is getting at here.

2446
02:47:18,399 --> 02:47:20,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think like a good way of thinking

2447
02:47:20,879 --> 02:47:23,399
about this because it for some people it might kind

2448
02:47:23,440 --> 02:47:27,280
of sound shocking shocking language, but it's I mean, human

2449
02:47:27,520 --> 02:47:29,879
persons can be A human person could be. I mean

2450
02:47:29,879 --> 02:47:33,600
a father, a human father is greater than his human son, right,

2451
02:47:33,639 --> 02:47:39,280
But that clearly doesn't signify a relationship of nature or

2452
02:47:39,280 --> 02:47:43,120
of pontological status. Just kind of like a relation, right,

2453
02:47:43,559 --> 02:47:46,799
just a relation between two hype stasis's two persons. And

2454
02:47:46,840 --> 02:47:49,000
I think that's kind of and I think Saint Basil's

2455
02:47:49,120 --> 02:47:51,959
argumentation is pretty much pretty much where he's getting at it,

2456
02:47:51,959 --> 02:47:54,639
because if this was applied to the essence, well, he

2457
02:47:54,719 --> 02:48:01,040
has several problems right in understanding this property. So yeah, yeah,

2458
02:48:01,159 --> 02:48:02,559
you can get to the next line.

2459
02:48:03,639 --> 02:48:05,879
Speaker 5: The next one is that a sayety is not a

2460
02:48:05,920 --> 02:48:09,920
property of nature. And so this is basically addressing the

2461
02:48:10,280 --> 02:48:15,680
Unomian premise, okay, and it's saying that a saiety is

2462
02:48:15,760 --> 02:48:19,760
a hypostatic property, and so in order to preserve monarchy

2463
02:48:19,799 --> 02:48:23,520
of the father, that's exactly the position that you have

2464
02:48:23,639 --> 02:48:26,920
to take. You have to say that a saiety is

2465
02:48:26,959 --> 02:48:29,920
a property of the Father and it's not a property

2466
02:48:30,120 --> 02:48:34,360
of the divine nature. And this is important because in

2467
02:48:34,399 --> 02:48:40,280
the Reformation you start seeing this emergence of thought that

2468
02:48:40,479 --> 02:48:45,600
says that no, all three persons are assay because asayity

2469
02:48:45,639 --> 02:48:48,719
is a property of nature, and they all instantiate the

2470
02:48:48,719 --> 02:48:54,520
same nature. Therefore they're all they're all assay. But that

2471
02:48:54,680 --> 02:48:59,879
gets you into a very problematic polytheistic position. But this

2472
02:49:00,079 --> 02:49:02,559
I've just put in this slides to demonstrate that this

2473
02:49:02,639 --> 02:49:04,200
is rhetorically the teaching.

2474
02:49:06,239 --> 02:49:08,920
Speaker 3: That's that's important. And another way of thinking about this

2475
02:49:09,040 --> 02:49:11,799
issue is like, Okay, look it seems like a sayty

2476
02:49:12,040 --> 02:49:15,360
is something proper only to God, right, And a different

2477
02:49:15,360 --> 02:49:19,079
way of thinking about this is, well, what is what

2478
02:49:19,159 --> 02:49:21,159
does mean? What does it mean? It means not from

2479
02:49:21,200 --> 02:49:23,879
being a cause, not from being another right, So it's

2480
02:49:24,000 --> 02:49:28,920
in negation of being from another right, which means that

2481
02:49:29,680 --> 02:49:34,559
if being from another is you know, natural, it's proper

2482
02:49:34,600 --> 02:49:36,479
to the essence, then not safety will also be proper

2483
02:49:36,520 --> 02:49:39,280
to the essence. But if it's proper to the specific person,

2484
02:49:39,319 --> 02:49:41,520
then the same will apply. And this is where like

2485
02:49:41,559 --> 02:49:44,040
if you look at the natural world, you see issues

2486
02:49:44,079 --> 02:49:47,040
with that. Like one issue that you see is again,

2487
02:49:47,959 --> 02:49:51,479
if being caused was proper to the nature of a thing,

2488
02:49:51,559 --> 02:49:55,159
then a tree can you know, be caused in different ways.

2489
02:49:55,639 --> 02:49:58,840
That will mean that I'd have to know how it

2490
02:49:58,879 --> 02:50:01,360
is caused in order to know that it's a tree,

2491
02:50:01,719 --> 02:50:05,760
and at the same time I won't be able to

2492
02:50:05,840 --> 02:50:09,280
distinguish between trees, and it doesn't really make any sense. Right,

2493
02:50:09,879 --> 02:50:11,879
So a tree that it's planted and a tree that

2494
02:50:11,959 --> 02:50:14,879
grows naturally, they're cause in two different ways, but we

2495
02:50:15,879 --> 02:50:20,000
still know that they have they're the same species of things.

2496
02:50:20,440 --> 02:50:24,319
They're both trees, right. It doesn't matter how they came

2497
02:50:24,360 --> 02:50:27,000
to be or how they are caused. It doesn't affect

2498
02:50:27,399 --> 02:50:31,120
what their constitution is. Is that kind of an important point?

2499
02:50:31,360 --> 02:50:34,399
And if that's the case, then it means our saiety

2500
02:50:34,520 --> 02:50:38,200
cannot be natural, right, because our siety is a property

2501
02:50:38,239 --> 02:50:42,280
that is specific to how something is individuated, so it

2502
02:50:42,319 --> 02:50:45,959
has to be specific to the hypostasis. In that case,

2503
02:50:46,000 --> 02:50:48,319
then there's no problem because the father is I say,

2504
02:50:48,360 --> 02:50:50,079
the son is begotten of the Father. The whole spirit

2505
02:50:50,239 --> 02:50:53,719
perceis from the Father. Those are just properties that signify

2506
02:50:53,799 --> 02:50:58,239
distinct persons and not distinct divinities. So there's no problem here.

2507
02:50:58,239 --> 02:50:59,879
And that's what we see in the Church Fathers and

2508
02:51:00,719 --> 02:51:03,520
what Kai is quoting from Saint Gregory Efnasiasis and from

2509
02:51:03,559 --> 02:51:06,520
Saint Basil previously. So they all pretty much are saying

2510
02:51:06,600 --> 02:51:08,399
this is like they're making this point.

2511
02:51:08,959 --> 02:51:12,040
Speaker 5: Right there you go, and this is I kind of

2512
02:51:12,079 --> 02:51:15,479
hinted at it before. This is going to come become

2513
02:51:15,600 --> 02:51:21,879
relevant when we start discussing the Orientals, specifically when you're

2514
02:51:21,920 --> 02:51:27,760
looking at their conception of this one nature and what

2515
02:51:27,879 --> 02:51:33,440
then is characteristic of Christ versus the Father and the

2516
02:51:33,440 --> 02:51:37,399
Holy Spirit and this issue of assaiety and who is

2517
02:51:37,440 --> 02:51:44,200
it that incarnates and they get themselves into problems with

2518
02:51:44,360 --> 02:51:48,799
regards to who exactly is part of the incarnation? Is

2519
02:51:48,840 --> 02:51:53,159
it the entire Trinity? Now, we've been making this argument

2520
02:51:53,200 --> 02:51:55,799
for a very long time. It's not an argument that

2521
02:51:55,840 --> 02:52:00,479
the Orientals are unfamiliar with. They have their responses. But

2522
02:52:01,000 --> 02:52:04,799
when we get to depart in the series where we

2523
02:52:05,040 --> 02:52:08,959
really dive into Oriental metaphysics, we're going to flash this

2524
02:52:09,040 --> 02:52:11,799
out in greater detail and address a lot of their

2525
02:52:11,840 --> 02:52:16,760
shortcomings in trying to deny that they're saying that they're

2526
02:52:17,079 --> 02:52:21,200
metaphysics is saying that the entire trinity incarnates. We're gonna

2527
02:52:21,200 --> 02:52:26,520
we're going to see that now from Saint Gregory of Nissa,

2528
02:52:27,360 --> 02:52:29,639
where you're saying that the sun is not ass by

2529
02:52:29,760 --> 02:52:33,719
person or nature, And this is really just kind of

2530
02:52:34,239 --> 02:52:35,600
playing off of Saint Gregory.

2531
02:52:35,879 --> 02:52:36,719
Speaker 6: Now Ziens is.

2532
02:52:36,719 --> 02:52:40,520
Speaker 5: Just to basically reinforce reinforce that point.

2533
02:52:40,559 --> 02:52:42,079
Speaker 6: I don't really want to dwell on that. If you're

2534
02:52:42,079 --> 02:52:43,920
okay with me, going ahead.

2535
02:52:44,079 --> 02:52:44,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, go ahead.

2536
02:52:45,040 --> 02:52:46,760
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2537
02:52:47,159 --> 02:52:51,079
Speaker 5: Now this is a lengthy quote, and again we can

2538
02:52:51,360 --> 02:52:53,799
just kind of talk about it rather than reading it.

2539
02:52:54,159 --> 02:52:57,920
And it's the Cappa Docian ontology of person. And this

2540
02:52:58,200 --> 02:53:06,000
is very important because prior to the Cappadocians, person was

2541
02:53:06,079 --> 02:53:11,879
basically thought of as a mode that belongs to a hypostasis,

2542
02:53:12,440 --> 02:53:17,799
and so you would have the underlying hippostatic ontology that

2543
02:53:17,959 --> 02:53:24,840
takes on different modes that is denoted by person. And

2544
02:53:25,159 --> 02:53:30,920
the Greek prosopone lexically means like to put on a mask,

2545
02:53:31,840 --> 02:53:35,000
and so it was like an actor who is a

2546
02:53:35,000 --> 02:53:40,520
single hippostatic ontology in a play, putting on different masks

2547
02:53:40,879 --> 02:53:46,440
to reflect different characters. The underlying ontology remains the same,

2548
02:53:46,760 --> 02:53:52,120
but what you are perceiving, you're perceiving something different, and

2549
02:53:52,200 --> 02:53:55,680
so to you you may be thinking you're looking at

2550
02:53:55,959 --> 02:54:01,719
a different hippostatic ontology because of the mask, but in reality,

2551
02:54:01,840 --> 02:54:07,520
the underlying ontology doesn't change. What the Cappadocians do is

2552
02:54:07,799 --> 02:54:14,680
they make any equivalence between hypostasis and the person, So

2553
02:54:14,719 --> 02:54:19,319
they're giving a concretization to the person that is hypostatic.

2554
02:54:19,680 --> 02:54:26,120
And this is basically important because it's saying that the

2555
02:54:26,280 --> 02:54:32,639
hippostasis has a concrete existence that you can identify by

2556
02:54:33,120 --> 02:54:38,200
the person. Okay, there isn't this segmentation of it. When

2557
02:54:38,239 --> 02:54:41,360
we're talking about hypostasis or the person. We're talking about

2558
02:54:41,520 --> 02:54:47,040
the same underlying ontology. And where this becomes relevant when

2559
02:54:47,120 --> 02:54:51,440
we talk specifically of the Church of the East, they

2560
02:54:51,559 --> 02:54:59,559
actually maintain a three tier ontology that does not collapse

2561
02:55:00,440 --> 02:55:06,200
hypostasis into person, maintains a distinction between hypostasis in person,

2562
02:55:07,280 --> 02:55:11,440
but they give person a different sense to what it

2563
02:55:11,479 --> 02:55:15,479
was historically, but they give it a different ontology. And

2564
02:55:15,600 --> 02:55:19,040
we're going to see the problems that we get into

2565
02:55:19,840 --> 02:55:23,280
with that kind of a metaphysics. But at the heart

2566
02:55:23,319 --> 02:55:26,239
of this is just to understand that there becomes an

2567
02:55:26,280 --> 02:55:29,559
equivalence of hypostasis and in person.

2568
02:55:31,479 --> 02:55:33,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, we see this in the Fourth Council, right, So,

2569
02:55:34,440 --> 02:55:37,600
and I think I think these quota also explains something important,

2570
02:55:37,719 --> 02:55:41,719
Like with hypstatsis it because in prosopone in Greek, like

2571
02:55:42,520 --> 02:55:45,600
the Latin transition is persona, so it kind of like

2572
02:55:45,760 --> 02:55:48,760
means like a face or a mask, or like an appearance.

2573
02:55:49,479 --> 02:55:52,680
So there's a deliberate reason why this kind of term

2574
02:55:53,040 --> 02:55:57,959
was further substantiated. And hype status originally means just substance, right,

2575
02:55:58,000 --> 02:56:00,799
that's what the Greek literally means, but over time it

2576
02:56:00,879 --> 02:56:04,600
was used to make a strang stronger case of a

2577
02:56:04,639 --> 02:56:10,680
real conquered distinction between nature and person and also between

2578
02:56:10,680 --> 02:56:13,639
the persons of the trinity. Right, So that's something to

2579
02:56:13,799 --> 02:56:14,399
bear in mind.

2580
02:56:15,319 --> 02:56:19,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. I would add too that it's really explicit by

2581
02:56:19,079 --> 02:56:25,760
the time of Leontius, and this is like pages to

2582
02:56:25,799 --> 02:56:29,639
sixty two hundred sixty two to two hundred and sixty four,

2583
02:56:30,600 --> 02:56:34,239
where or two and sixty five where you specifically really

2584
02:56:34,360 --> 02:56:38,840
hammers home in order to give the Fifth Ecumenical Council

2585
02:56:39,000 --> 02:56:47,159
its theological weight that hypostasis properly is pros upon or subject.

2586
02:56:48,000 --> 02:56:55,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, now we're going to go into Nestorian metaphysics

2587
02:56:56,120 --> 02:56:59,280
this particular slide. I actually want to read every single

2588
02:56:59,360 --> 02:57:02,159
point here because it's going to touch on a lot

2589
02:57:02,200 --> 02:57:05,000
of things that we're going to build up on. So

2590
02:57:05,600 --> 02:57:08,399
when we're looking at the story in metaphysics, one thing

2591
02:57:08,440 --> 02:57:11,680
that has to be born in mind is that nature

2592
02:57:12,479 --> 02:57:20,079
has no ontological status independent of hypostasis. In fact, nature

2593
02:57:20,159 --> 02:57:24,719
points to the ontology, that is the hypostasis. It is

2594
02:57:24,760 --> 02:57:29,360
the hypostasis that has concrete existence, and nature is merely

2595
02:57:29,399 --> 02:57:34,479
the manner in which that hypostasis can potentially exist. Nevertheless,

2596
02:57:34,520 --> 02:57:38,040
it is possible to speak of nature and the abstract

2597
02:57:38,360 --> 02:57:42,319
insofar as it is something that exists only in the mind,

2598
02:57:42,879 --> 02:57:49,280
and depending on context, nature is interchangeable with hypostasis, and

2599
02:57:49,319 --> 02:57:53,600
you get into this notion of particular nature is the

2600
02:57:53,639 --> 02:57:58,680
manner in which the hypostasis actually exists, and so phenomenalists

2601
02:57:58,840 --> 02:58:02,600
and the nominal paradigm is very relevant when we start

2602
02:58:02,600 --> 02:58:07,559
discussing the orientals. Is that every hypostasis has its own

2603
02:58:07,719 --> 02:58:12,639
respective nature, and this nature exists only in so far

2604
02:58:13,120 --> 02:58:17,440
as the hypostasis exists. Now, when it comes to Saint Cyril,

2605
02:58:18,319 --> 02:58:20,760
what has to always in mind is that when he

2606
02:58:20,799 --> 02:58:24,079
speaks of quote unquote nature, he may be referring to

2607
02:58:24,159 --> 02:58:28,520
either the ontology that is the hypostasis, or the characteristics

2608
02:58:28,520 --> 02:58:32,200
of a hypostatic existence that we contemplate in the mind

2609
02:58:32,520 --> 02:58:33,920
proper to that nature.

2610
02:58:34,559 --> 02:58:37,479
Speaker 2: I would add two that in the zach Kuber text

2611
02:58:37,639 --> 02:58:40,920
from the Cappadocians, the whole idea that you could get

2612
02:58:40,920 --> 02:58:43,479
some kind of nominalism out of the Cappadocians as absurd

2613
02:58:43,520 --> 02:58:48,399
because they were emphatic on utilizing the notion of the

2614
02:58:48,559 --> 02:58:53,239
universal or the nature as universal as the paradigm to

2615
02:58:54,159 --> 02:58:59,280
make what's common in the Godhead. Yea, the hypostaces are particular.

2616
02:59:00,120 --> 02:59:02,840
Nature is common in the Godhead, and the analogy they

2617
02:59:02,920 --> 02:59:05,479
use is to the one of the many into universals.

2618
02:59:05,920 --> 02:59:08,879
So this would be absurd to think that you could

2619
02:59:09,159 --> 02:59:11,799
somehow get nominalism, by the way, in any of the

2620
02:59:11,879 --> 02:59:14,200
Church Fathers. So it's just odd to me that you

2621
02:59:14,280 --> 02:59:18,959
have this nominalist turn to where natures are only particulars,

2622
02:59:19,200 --> 02:59:23,280
which would be ultimately an Aristotilian position. This, by the way,

2623
02:59:23,319 --> 02:59:26,760
is where we get, as David mentioned earlier, the era

2624
02:59:26,799 --> 02:59:30,799
of John fal opponents, because hypostasis is just a particularized

2625
02:59:30,920 --> 02:59:34,239
nature and that's why if you're consistent with that reflexively

2626
02:59:34,280 --> 02:59:37,639
to the Trinity, there would be three gods in the Trinity.

2627
02:59:38,159 --> 02:59:38,440
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2628
02:59:38,559 --> 02:59:41,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, And something I want to ask really quickly is

2629
02:59:41,520 --> 02:59:45,479
like this kind of like the main metaphysics we see

2630
02:59:45,479 --> 02:59:47,680
in terms of like the relationship between universe and particular

2631
02:59:47,760 --> 02:59:50,799
is that universal? This is something so sthantic like literally

2632
02:59:50,799 --> 02:59:56,000
says again, like straight up that universals are just a

2633
02:59:56,040 --> 03:00:00,479
collection of particle particulars. So the universal of divinity, it's

2634
03:00:00,600 --> 03:00:04,319
just a collection of the three particulars. It's basically all

2635
03:00:04,319 --> 03:00:07,280
of this. It's nothing more, it's nothing less. And so

2636
03:00:08,000 --> 03:00:13,840
this is important because when John the Grammarian suggests like

2637
03:00:13,920 --> 03:00:17,280
a basis for union, when he argues, look, when we

2638
03:00:17,319 --> 03:00:19,840
say two nature is all we mean is that Christ

2639
03:00:19,879 --> 03:00:24,399
is into USII, the response service of Anthier gives is

2640
03:00:24,520 --> 03:00:28,600
essentially just if that's the case, then you know the

2641
03:00:28,799 --> 03:00:32,520
entirety of divinity, the trinity will be in all human

2642
03:00:32,559 --> 03:00:36,000
beings because a universal is just a collection of all particulars.

2643
03:00:36,399 --> 03:00:39,559
So you kind of see this is the nominalist term, right,

2644
03:00:39,600 --> 03:00:43,719
I mean, it's basically a universal. It's only just particulars, right,

2645
03:00:44,000 --> 03:00:46,479
just a collection of them. It's nothing more and nothing less.

2646
03:00:46,520 --> 03:00:48,559
And this is not what we see in the capitocin.

2647
03:00:48,159 --> 03:00:55,200
Speaker 5: Fathers, right, and so going along that then the story, Yeah, yeah.

2648
03:00:56,360 --> 03:00:58,719
Speaker 2: This is not just our opinion. This is literally the

2649
03:00:58,719 --> 03:01:01,360
thesis of the zech a revoking part.

2650
03:01:01,600 --> 03:01:06,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely absolutely. But the Nestorian mistake, which is erroneously

2651
03:01:06,959 --> 03:01:11,360
imposed onto Saint Cyril, is to demand. Now this is

2652
03:01:11,600 --> 03:01:16,920
you gotta understand this next part. They demand the Nestorians

2653
03:01:16,959 --> 03:01:24,520
demand that every nature must have its own respective hypostasis

2654
03:01:24,680 --> 03:01:30,399
kind namely, divine nature can only have so called divine

2655
03:01:30,479 --> 03:01:37,159
hypostasis and human nature can only have so called human hypostasis.

2656
03:01:38,399 --> 03:01:44,440
In the terminology in Syriac, that's basically saying that akiana

2657
03:01:45,159 --> 03:01:47,959
has its own corresponding cluma.

2658
03:01:48,920 --> 03:01:50,840
Speaker 6: Okay, so if.

2659
03:01:50,680 --> 03:01:54,879
Speaker 5: You have if you want this type of a cnuma,

2660
03:01:54,959 --> 03:01:57,040
you have to have that kind of a kiana, or

2661
03:01:57,520 --> 03:02:00,600
that type of a knuma corresponds to that type of kiana.

2662
03:02:00,879 --> 03:02:03,000
You can't be interchanging it.

2663
03:02:04,079 --> 03:02:04,440
Speaker 6: Okay.

2664
03:02:05,360 --> 03:02:10,600
Speaker 5: For Nestorians to talk of divine and human natures necessitates

2665
03:02:10,639 --> 03:02:17,239
the existence of divine and human hypostasis respectively. Otherwise those

2666
03:02:17,680 --> 03:02:22,840
natures exist only in the mind as abstracts.

2667
03:02:23,680 --> 03:02:24,040
Speaker 6: Okay.

2668
03:02:25,079 --> 03:02:29,239
Speaker 5: Where this is relevant is when you look at the

2669
03:02:29,319 --> 03:02:39,559
exchanges between Nestorius and Saint Cyril. What Nestorius is metaphysically

2670
03:02:40,399 --> 03:02:45,680
saying doesn't make sense when he's interacting with Saint Cyril

2671
03:02:47,360 --> 03:02:53,200
is he's saying, how can there be a hippostatic union?

2672
03:02:54,920 --> 03:02:57,559
So if you have hypostasis that is divine and a

2673
03:02:57,639 --> 03:03:04,159
hypostasis that is human combining things that are not possible

2674
03:03:04,239 --> 03:03:10,840
to combine. How can you have this mixture occurring? Because

2675
03:03:11,000 --> 03:03:15,079
what he's saying here is is that if it's impossible

2676
03:03:15,159 --> 03:03:20,559
to combine these hypostasies, what Saint Cyril is doing is

2677
03:03:20,879 --> 03:03:27,319
he's saying that these natures are abstract and they're combining

2678
03:03:27,520 --> 03:03:33,440
in an abstract way to give you a resultant hypostasis.

2679
03:03:34,120 --> 03:03:38,239
And to him, following this metaphysics does not make sense

2680
03:03:38,280 --> 03:03:43,200
to him because you can't combine abstracts to then give

2681
03:03:43,239 --> 03:03:49,600
you a resultant concrete particular. But you can't have the

2682
03:03:49,680 --> 03:03:53,719
other way where you have these concrete particulars and mix them,

2683
03:03:53,959 --> 03:03:58,479
because how can you mix a concrete particular that is

2684
03:03:58,600 --> 03:04:02,639
human and a concrete particular that is divine? And that

2685
03:04:02,840 --> 03:04:06,680
is at the heart of Nestorius's thinking, and that is

2686
03:04:06,680 --> 03:04:09,719
at the heart of his criticism against Saint Cyril, in

2687
03:04:09,879 --> 03:04:13,639
his misunderstanding of what Sint Cyril is teaching. Because I'm

2688
03:04:13,639 --> 03:04:18,040
not proclaiming that Saint Cyril is teaching what Nestorius is

2689
03:04:18,079 --> 03:04:22,440
portraying him. It's Neistorius is misunderstanding of what Saint Cyril

2690
03:04:22,520 --> 03:04:27,159
is saying. But this is the metaphysical understanding that Nestorius

2691
03:04:27,280 --> 03:04:31,879
is taking because for them, for him to talk about

2692
03:04:32,799 --> 03:04:39,040
nature's necessitates that they have a particular expression, so that

2693
03:04:39,200 --> 03:04:44,159
the hypostasis must exist first before you can do something

2694
03:04:44,479 --> 03:04:48,000
with the natures. And this is the whole idea behind

2695
03:04:48,040 --> 03:04:54,319
the Syriac Keana Kroma understanding that this is an individuated nature. Okay,

2696
03:04:54,399 --> 03:04:56,040
but I'm going to get into that in a little

2697
03:04:56,079 --> 03:05:01,120
bit a little bit later. Now, since christ human existence

2698
03:05:01,239 --> 03:05:07,639
is not abstract but is a real, concrete existence, Nestorians

2699
03:05:07,719 --> 03:05:15,600
demand that his human nature be realized with a human hypostasis. Now,

2700
03:05:16,399 --> 03:05:18,799
the next part, what I'm going to say is probably

2701
03:05:18,840 --> 03:05:21,639
going to be kind of a shocker to a lot

2702
03:05:21,639 --> 03:05:28,879
of people, despite that we call the Oriental's monophysites. In essence,

2703
03:05:29,719 --> 03:05:32,920
both the Oriental and the Church of the East positions

2704
03:05:33,639 --> 03:05:39,200
are principally Nestorian. So yes, the Orientals are, in a

2705
03:05:39,280 --> 03:05:45,159
manner of speaking, Nestorian because they subscribe to exactly this

2706
03:05:45,680 --> 03:05:51,280
understanding of how a nature exists, or how an abstract exists.

2707
03:05:51,399 --> 03:05:57,159
It can only exist in the particulars. But what differentiates

2708
03:05:57,200 --> 03:06:03,120
them is that the Orientals combine the hypostasis. And now

2709
03:06:03,440 --> 03:06:07,479
they're gonna say, well, they're not mingled. They're not confused,

2710
03:06:07,520 --> 03:06:11,200
They're not mixed. They're gonna kind of qualified in that language.

2711
03:06:11,559 --> 03:06:18,799
But nevertheless, the Orientals are combining the hypostasis, and in

2712
03:06:18,959 --> 03:06:24,719
so doing they de facto become Monophysites, whereas the Church

2713
03:06:24,760 --> 03:06:31,959
of the East JUXTA deposes the hypostasis and are Nestorians

2714
03:06:31,959 --> 03:06:37,799
in the conventional understanding. But what both sides fail to

2715
03:06:37,920 --> 03:06:41,959
understand with regards to the Orthodox position is when Saint

2716
03:06:42,000 --> 03:06:46,159
Cyril talks about Christ having divine and human natures. For

2717
03:06:46,239 --> 03:06:50,200
the Orthodox, that means that Saint Cyril is contemplating in

2718
03:06:50,239 --> 03:06:55,360
the mind the singular divine hypostasis, that is, the Logos

2719
03:06:55,399 --> 03:07:01,200
in the manners of divine and human existences. In reality,

2720
03:07:01,360 --> 03:07:06,399
according to Saint Cyril, Christ's hypostasis, that is, the singular

2721
03:07:06,440 --> 03:07:12,000
divine hypostasis of the Logos, has concrete natural existences simultaneous

2722
03:07:12,000 --> 03:07:16,559
simultaneously as God and man, and not that Christ is

2723
03:07:16,639 --> 03:07:23,920
the combination or juxtaposition of divine in human hypostasis. So

2724
03:07:24,120 --> 03:07:28,360
when Saint Cyril speaks of Christ being of one composite

2725
03:07:28,440 --> 03:07:32,559
nature or one incarnate nature for the Orthodox, he is

2726
03:07:32,559 --> 03:07:36,600
referring to the singular divine hypostatic ontology that is the

2727
03:07:36,639 --> 03:07:41,399
Logos taking on a new manner of existence, namely human

2728
03:07:41,479 --> 03:07:46,000
being by incarnating, and not that he takes on an

2729
03:07:46,040 --> 03:07:51,600
additional new human hypostasis to correspond to the human existence,

2730
03:07:52,280 --> 03:07:56,360
which is basically what both the Orientals and historians do.

2731
03:07:57,200 --> 03:08:01,680
So the divine hypostasis, that is, the Logo is the

2732
03:08:01,840 --> 03:08:07,200
subject for his human existence, and not that the Logos

2733
03:08:07,280 --> 03:08:10,120
joins to himself a human hypostasis.

2734
03:08:10,600 --> 03:08:12,840
Speaker 2: And I would add too that this is condemned in

2735
03:08:13,360 --> 03:08:17,079
Ecamenical Council, the idea that there is a human hypostasis

2736
03:08:17,159 --> 03:08:19,799
or any created hypostasis in Christ yep.

2737
03:08:22,319 --> 03:08:25,360
Speaker 5: So the Nestorian thinking. So, now we're going to get

2738
03:08:25,360 --> 03:08:29,040
into the mindset of the Nestorians. So, since the natures

2739
03:08:29,079 --> 03:08:32,319
are abstract thoughts in the mind, there is no reality

2740
03:08:32,360 --> 03:08:34,799
to them that they can come into union in any

2741
03:08:34,879 --> 03:08:39,079
real sense. It is not possible to unite something in

2742
03:08:39,120 --> 03:08:43,120
the mind and then claim it exists as concrete reality,

2743
03:08:43,760 --> 03:08:48,120
because natures exist only in so far as hypostasis exist.

2744
03:08:48,680 --> 03:08:52,680
So there must be a concretization of natures by means

2745
03:08:52,719 --> 03:08:57,399
of the hypostasis or knuma to first have something that

2746
03:08:57,559 --> 03:09:01,040
really exists, and then there can be a union between

2747
03:09:01,079 --> 03:09:05,319
those realities. And so when we look from the perspectives

2748
03:09:05,319 --> 03:09:08,520
of the Orientals, in the Church of the East, the

2749
03:09:08,639 --> 03:09:12,879
Orientals take the union to occur at the level of hypostasis.

2750
03:09:13,280 --> 03:09:16,600
They'll call it a hypostatic union. And the Orthodox will

2751
03:09:17,399 --> 03:09:20,600
also use the terminology of hypostatic union, but mean it

2752
03:09:20,639 --> 03:09:24,120
in a different sense. Now, for the Church of the East,

2753
03:09:25,000 --> 03:09:29,319
a hypostatic union does not make sense because the natures

2754
03:09:29,440 --> 03:09:34,040
or those ontologies in Christ are mixed. Despite that, the

2755
03:09:34,120 --> 03:09:37,879
Orientals will say no, that they're not mixed. The Church

2756
03:09:37,920 --> 03:09:41,000
of These to say, no, they're mixed. But on the

2757
03:09:41,000 --> 03:09:44,159
flip side, the Church of the East takes the union

2758
03:09:44,239 --> 03:09:48,680
to occur at the level of prosopone prosopic union. And

2759
03:09:48,959 --> 03:09:54,000
this is where you see this three tier ontology manifest

2760
03:09:54,159 --> 03:09:56,959
in the Church of the East and the Nestorian thinking.

2761
03:09:57,639 --> 03:10:02,559
Because if they're denun if they do nine abstract natures

2762
03:10:04,479 --> 03:10:08,680
in terms of its mixing, they deny that the hypostasis

2763
03:10:08,719 --> 03:10:12,120
can mix or come into any kind of a union.

2764
03:10:12,799 --> 03:10:16,479
The union has to occur in some way. The divine

2765
03:10:16,520 --> 03:10:19,520
and human in Christ have to unite in some way,

2766
03:10:19,600 --> 03:10:23,559
and for them the union is in the prosopone or

2767
03:10:23,559 --> 03:10:29,600
the parsupa, and they hold to a prosopic union. But

2768
03:10:29,719 --> 03:10:34,280
for the Orientals, a prosopic union does not make sense

2769
03:10:35,079 --> 03:10:41,680
because now those hippostatic ontologies representing the natures in Christ

2770
03:10:42,040 --> 03:10:47,360
are separated. And so that's the fundamental Oriental critique against

2771
03:10:47,399 --> 03:10:51,760
the Church of the East, against the Nestorians. So in

2772
03:10:51,840 --> 03:10:55,399
order to achieve a union that does not mix the hypostasis,

2773
03:10:56,000 --> 03:10:59,520
the Church of the East has to give prosopone ontological

2774
03:10:59,559 --> 03:11:05,399
status that differs from the Cappadocian sense. Okay, So this

2775
03:11:05,639 --> 03:11:08,239
is where the Church of the East cannot say that

2776
03:11:08,360 --> 03:11:11,159
prosopon is synonymous with hypostasies.

2777
03:11:12,040 --> 03:11:14,200
Speaker 6: Okay. Now for the.

2778
03:11:14,280 --> 03:11:19,920
Speaker 5: Church of the East, the individualizing properties are what constitute

2779
03:11:20,079 --> 03:11:28,120
the prosopon or the parsupa, namely, what distinguishes between hippostatic antologies.

2780
03:11:30,000 --> 03:11:35,399
An example of that is will, the will of a

2781
03:11:35,479 --> 03:11:40,920
hypostatic ontology distinguishes that hypostasis from a different hypostasis or

2782
03:11:40,959 --> 03:11:44,959
in their nomenclature in Syriac, to knuma. While the natural

2783
03:11:45,040 --> 03:11:50,120
properties are individual individuated by the hypostasis by the knuma.

2784
03:11:51,200 --> 03:12:00,959
So it's the cnuma that enumerates the ontologies. Think of

2785
03:12:01,159 --> 03:12:06,360
cnuma or the Nestorian use of hypostasis to basically give

2786
03:12:06,440 --> 03:12:11,399
you a mannequin and all this. The mannequins are all

2787
03:12:12,440 --> 03:12:16,360
blank canvas, but you can count all of the Mannikins,

2788
03:12:16,719 --> 03:12:19,920
so you can enumerate the ontologies.

2789
03:12:21,680 --> 03:12:22,399
Speaker 6: And in the.

2790
03:12:22,319 --> 03:12:27,399
Speaker 5: Nestorian scheme, the prosopon the parsupa are the things that

2791
03:12:27,479 --> 03:12:31,479
are put onto those mannequins that allows you to pick

2792
03:12:31,600 --> 03:12:34,879
out this one with the baseball half versus the one

2793
03:12:34,920 --> 03:12:39,760
with the skirt versus whatever it may be. And that's

2794
03:12:39,799 --> 03:12:44,440
how the Nestorian ontology works and unfolds. And this is

2795
03:12:44,680 --> 03:12:50,399
basically what is happening with regards to the prosopic union.

2796
03:12:51,520 --> 03:12:56,760
You have this hypostasis or this cnuma that individuates the

2797
03:12:56,879 --> 03:12:59,959
nature that basically is the substrate, if you will. It's

2798
03:13:00,079 --> 03:13:07,040
the bear Mannikin that is then individualized by the parsupa

2799
03:13:07,399 --> 03:13:12,319
or given an expression that allows it to be distinguished

2800
03:13:13,079 --> 03:13:16,000
from all the other mannequins or all the other kluma.

2801
03:13:16,840 --> 03:13:21,079
Speaker 6: Okay, but for.

2802
03:13:21,079 --> 03:13:26,159
Speaker 5: Us as Orthodox, we cannot subscribe to this because we

2803
03:13:26,319 --> 03:13:32,479
don't have a human hypostasis and the metaphysical requirement that

2804
03:13:32,600 --> 03:13:38,600
Christ's human nature must be concretized by a human hypostasis

2805
03:13:39,719 --> 03:13:45,760
is a premise that we reject. So at the heart

2806
03:13:45,799 --> 03:13:50,520
of it, we are denying the Nestorian ontology and we're

2807
03:13:50,600 --> 03:13:57,760
denying the Oriental ontology that require hypostasis. We're saying that

2808
03:13:57,879 --> 03:14:01,760
is a metaphysical constraint that you guys are imposing, but

2809
03:14:01,879 --> 03:14:06,159
you can't justify. And because you can't justify it, you

2810
03:14:06,239 --> 03:14:11,440
are compromising your soteriology. You are compromising your Christology, you

2811
03:14:11,479 --> 03:14:17,520
are compromising your triadology because you cannot have a coherent

2812
03:14:17,680 --> 03:14:23,360
metaphysical paradigm of all of those by insisting as a

2813
03:14:23,399 --> 03:14:28,760
fundamental premise that you must first concretize in nature by

2814
03:14:28,799 --> 03:14:35,799
its respective hypostasis. Kind okay, so drop the bs that

2815
03:14:36,079 --> 03:14:43,319
we don't understand your syriac cluma. We know exactly what

2816
03:14:43,479 --> 03:14:48,879
kluma means. We know exactly what parsupa means. And you,

2817
03:14:49,200 --> 03:14:54,959
in the Church of the East, you are historians. There

2818
03:14:55,079 --> 03:14:59,760
is no word games that you can play to get

2819
03:15:00,239 --> 03:15:03,159
out of this. And I'm going to quote your own

2820
03:15:03,319 --> 03:15:06,879
sources in a moment in a future slide to demonstrate

2821
03:15:07,079 --> 03:15:11,440
exactly and substantiate what it is that I'm saying. You

2822
03:15:11,559 --> 03:15:16,719
guys are Nestorians. The main thing though, that I think

2823
03:15:17,079 --> 03:15:21,000
needs to be born out with regards to the Orientals

2824
03:15:22,200 --> 03:15:26,399
is to demonstrate in a very forceful way and kind

2825
03:15:26,440 --> 03:15:30,559
of change the dynamic of the discussion to basically say,

2826
03:15:31,079 --> 03:15:34,840
you Orientals your Nestorians just as much as the other

2827
03:15:35,079 --> 03:15:38,959
the actual Nestorians are in a conventional sense, but you're

2828
03:15:39,000 --> 03:15:48,360
just doing a different metaphysical move and go into monophysitism. Okay,

2829
03:15:49,600 --> 03:15:55,479
when we look at Nestorian two persons, and this is

2830
03:15:55,639 --> 03:16:02,959
now at the heart of the orthodox critique of Nestorius

2831
03:16:03,440 --> 03:16:07,040
of the Church of the East, that we say you

2832
03:16:07,239 --> 03:16:10,799
hold to two persons, though you will say no, we

2833
03:16:10,920 --> 03:16:18,040
believe in one person. Either you guys are lying because

2834
03:16:18,040 --> 03:16:21,879
you know what your metaphysics is and you're trying to

2835
03:16:21,920 --> 03:16:25,479
play word games when you say what one person means,

2836
03:16:26,399 --> 03:16:29,319
or you're just so ignorant and stupid of your own

2837
03:16:29,399 --> 03:16:34,239
theology that you don't actually understand how you're a Nestorian.

2838
03:16:36,719 --> 03:16:41,120
For the Church of the East, Christ is quote unquote

2839
03:16:41,600 --> 03:16:47,440
one person, because there's only a single prosopic will. The

2840
03:16:47,520 --> 03:16:53,120
Logos gifts his divine prosopic will to the humanity of Christ.

2841
03:16:54,639 --> 03:16:59,159
It is in this prosopic will, will that the divinity

2842
03:16:59,280 --> 03:17:04,879
in humanity achieve union. The argument is then that Christ

2843
03:17:05,000 --> 03:17:11,360
is a single person because this prosopon is a single ontology.

2844
03:17:13,520 --> 03:17:19,319
The denial of Christ being two persons hinges on rejecting

2845
03:17:19,879 --> 03:17:25,600
the Cappadocian premise that hippostatic ontology increases the person count.

2846
03:17:27,040 --> 03:17:30,680
For the Church of the East, it doesn't matter how

2847
03:17:30,680 --> 03:17:35,479
many hippostatic or cruma ontologies there are, because person is

2848
03:17:35,639 --> 03:17:42,159
counted only by the number of different prosopic ontologies. However,

2849
03:17:42,639 --> 03:17:50,360
by maintaining separate hypostatic ontologies, activities predicated to Christ are

2850
03:17:50,639 --> 03:17:57,120
really predications with respect to a particular hypostasis. For example,

2851
03:17:57,479 --> 03:18:01,680
to say Christ raised Lazarus from the dead, which is

2852
03:18:01,799 --> 03:18:08,360
a prosopic predication, is meant that it is Christ's humanity

2853
03:18:08,639 --> 03:18:13,479
that raises the arms, which is a human hippostatic predication,

2854
03:18:14,799 --> 03:18:19,040
and it is Christ's divinity that gives Lazarus life, a

2855
03:18:19,120 --> 03:18:24,280
divine hypostatic predication. So there is a segregation of activities

2856
03:18:24,719 --> 03:18:29,079
proper to the two hypostases. And you will see this

2857
03:18:29,479 --> 03:18:33,760
when you read, for example, Theodore of Mopsuestia, who divides

2858
03:18:34,159 --> 03:18:39,440
the activities to the respective hypostasis. And this is why

2859
03:18:39,479 --> 03:18:42,719
the Church of the East refuses to say things like

2860
03:18:43,200 --> 03:18:49,200
God died, basically a rejection of communicatio idiomatum the communication

2861
03:18:49,239 --> 03:18:57,360
of idioms. But now let's unpack the logical implications of

2862
03:18:57,959 --> 03:19:03,920
the Nestorian thinking. If there is segregation of activities based

2863
03:19:03,920 --> 03:19:10,120
on hypostasis, then there are multiple persons irrespective of the

2864
03:19:10,319 --> 03:19:16,040
desired prosopic ontological count, because it is not hypostasis on

2865
03:19:16,159 --> 03:19:20,840
their own that perform actions. If hypostasis on their own

2866
03:19:20,920 --> 03:19:25,559
performed actions, then prosopon as a distinct ontology would not

2867
03:19:25,719 --> 03:19:32,799
be necessary. By distinguishing activities based on hypostasis, then in reality,

2868
03:19:33,120 --> 03:19:36,879
the activities are distinguished based on person because it is

2869
03:19:36,879 --> 03:19:42,680
the person that realizes the respective hypostatic activity. In other words,

2870
03:19:43,120 --> 03:19:49,600
segregating hypostatic activity segregates personal activity, meaning there is not

2871
03:19:49,799 --> 03:19:56,000
one person but many according to hypostatic count. And when

2872
03:19:56,120 --> 03:20:00,040
activities are divided based on hypostatic ontology, then the the

2873
03:20:00,159 --> 03:20:04,680
number of persons is equal to the number of hypostasies.

2874
03:20:06,319 --> 03:20:10,959
So claiming that Christ is one person because the desired

2875
03:20:11,040 --> 03:20:15,440
prosopic ontological count is believed to be one does not work.

2876
03:20:16,399 --> 03:20:23,079
In reality, this one persopic ontology is actually necessarily multiplied

2877
03:20:23,360 --> 03:20:28,639
for each hypostasis respectively. And so while we perceive only

2878
03:20:28,799 --> 03:20:35,040
one external prosopic expression, there's only one Christ, there are

2879
03:20:35,559 --> 03:20:43,159
multiple internal persopic ontologies. Namely, each hypostasis by necessity, must

2880
03:20:43,200 --> 03:20:48,479
have its own respective prosopic ontology in order to be complete.

2881
03:20:49,159 --> 03:20:54,159
Otherwise you have a goalum and in Christ, the prosopic

2882
03:20:54,200 --> 03:20:58,799
ontological count is two, but the prosopic expression is one

2883
03:20:59,440 --> 03:21:05,239
I e. Two persons in unison. Think of the analogy

2884
03:21:05,319 --> 03:21:11,440
of a choir. You perceive a single song from the choir,

2885
03:21:12,799 --> 03:21:16,200
but at the same time recognize that there are actually

2886
03:21:16,680 --> 03:21:24,159
multiple persons singing in unison, corresponding to distinct, innumerable complete ontologies.

2887
03:21:26,120 --> 03:21:30,799
If there's only one prosopic ontology of Christ, then what

2888
03:21:31,000 --> 03:21:37,559
exactly is united in a so called prosopic union? The

2889
03:21:37,600 --> 03:21:42,120
two natures are not united, the two hypostases are not united.

2890
03:21:43,280 --> 03:21:48,840
So what exactly is united if there is only one

2891
03:21:48,959 --> 03:21:55,239
prosopic ontology of Christ? That the hypostasis in Christ performs

2892
03:21:55,280 --> 03:21:59,680
human activities directed by the will of the logos. If

2893
03:21:59,719 --> 03:22:03,040
it is and that where the union occurs, then all

2894
03:22:03,120 --> 03:22:06,479
you have is the remote piloting of a human body

2895
03:22:06,799 --> 03:22:12,319
by the Logos. So if prosopon is treated as a

2896
03:22:12,520 --> 03:22:20,319
separate ontology to hypostasis, basically rejecting Capitalocian metaphysics. Then the

2897
03:22:20,440 --> 03:22:27,200
end result is there is no real incarnation of the logos.

2898
03:22:28,159 --> 03:22:33,159
And more than that, monarchy of the father is also jeopardized.

2899
03:22:33,680 --> 03:22:36,680
And when you jeopardize monarchy of the father, you are

2900
03:22:36,799 --> 03:22:41,399
now absolutely going against the historical teaching.

2901
03:22:41,399 --> 03:22:45,479
Speaker 2: Stiff, did you flesh out how explicitly that leads to

2902
03:22:46,639 --> 03:22:49,319
rejection or jeopardizing the monarchy of the father on this

2903
03:22:49,840 --> 03:22:50,680
weird ontology?

2904
03:22:51,239 --> 03:22:56,520
Speaker 5: Right? So then what ends up happening here is I

2905
03:22:56,600 --> 03:22:59,399
do have if I do have an upcoming slide that's

2906
03:22:59,399 --> 03:23:03,680
actually gonna talk about this. But when you when you

2907
03:23:03,799 --> 03:23:10,280
segregate the ontology of hypostasis and person, then what ends

2908
03:23:10,360 --> 03:23:15,879
up happening? If the hypostasis is its own substrate, then

2909
03:23:16,239 --> 03:23:25,440
what individualizes the hypostasis in the trinity becomes the prosopone

2910
03:23:25,920 --> 03:23:30,280
becomes the parsupa. But now what ends up But if

2911
03:23:30,319 --> 03:23:36,159
we recognize the parsupa as what individualizes, it means paternity

2912
03:23:36,760 --> 03:23:42,799
begetting affiliation, spiration becomes a giftable property. It doesn't become

2913
03:23:42,799 --> 03:23:46,920
a hypostatic property. It becomes giftable. And so then you

2914
03:23:47,000 --> 03:23:54,079
can change who has whatever property of father because the

2915
03:23:54,200 --> 03:23:58,959
underlying substrate is completely identical between father and son.

2916
03:24:00,040 --> 03:24:01,159
Speaker 2: Has it become a gift able?

2917
03:24:01,559 --> 03:24:06,000
Speaker 5: Uh? Because that's because because that's the scheme. But now

2918
03:24:06,239 --> 03:24:07,239
this is where.

2919
03:24:07,520 --> 03:24:11,040
Speaker 2: By the way, isn't that the Romancaltholic position to the

2920
03:24:11,079 --> 03:24:13,319
father can gift the property?

2921
03:24:13,559 --> 03:24:21,959
Speaker 5: Well, this is what happens here there Theologian pod Ex

2922
03:24:22,040 --> 03:24:26,959
salons that they call Marba Bay. He's kind of like

2923
03:24:27,159 --> 03:24:31,239
the Nestorianizer of the church. He's the one that full

2924
03:24:31,479 --> 03:24:36,280
force basically says Church of the East, we're gonna put

2925
03:24:36,280 --> 03:24:39,280
the floor, put the gas pedal to the floor. We're

2926
03:24:39,319 --> 03:24:44,000
going full on board with Nestorianism. And so when you

2927
03:24:44,079 --> 03:24:50,000
read his Book of Union, he is very explicit in

2928
03:24:50,799 --> 03:24:57,120
this distinction between parsupa and hypostasis.

2929
03:24:57,319 --> 03:24:59,440
Speaker 2: So is he the source of the idea that these

2930
03:24:59,520 --> 03:25:01,760
that this is a giftable property.

2931
03:25:02,440 --> 03:25:06,319
Speaker 5: So he's not the source of it, but he's forcefully.

2932
03:25:06,479 --> 03:25:11,719
What he's doing is he's taking this Christology and he's

2933
03:25:11,760 --> 03:25:17,479
actually working backwards. So instead of deriving his Christology from triadology,

2934
03:25:17,760 --> 03:25:22,760
he's actually working backwards and deriving his triadology from the Christology.

2935
03:25:23,120 --> 03:25:26,440
So he's looking at what the Church of the East

2936
03:25:26,520 --> 03:25:30,879
is teaching, the Nestorians are teaching with respect to Christ

2937
03:25:31,280 --> 03:25:35,040
and how they adopt this metaphysical paradigm, and he's just

2938
03:25:35,159 --> 03:25:41,200
working it backwards into his triadology. And now what the

2939
03:25:41,280 --> 03:25:49,399
Nestorians will say is they will reject his triadology because

2940
03:25:49,959 --> 03:25:54,520
they're starting to see the problems. And so what they're

2941
03:25:54,559 --> 03:25:57,840
trying to do then is is they're trying to sneak

2942
03:25:57,920 --> 03:26:02,719
in the back door a complete new metaphysical paradigm. So

2943
03:26:02,799 --> 03:26:04,879
this is where it comes now to play. What I

2944
03:26:04,920 --> 03:26:08,280
said at the beginning, how you have these two competing

2945
03:26:09,000 --> 03:26:15,399
metaphysical paradigms. They're offloading onto the hypostasis of the Trinity

2946
03:26:16,000 --> 03:26:20,239
these personable properties, and they're just saying, well, now they're

2947
03:26:20,239 --> 03:26:23,840
actually krumic properties, they're hypostatic properties. So they're kind of

2948
03:26:23,840 --> 03:26:27,079
doing a sleight of hand, if you will, and setting

2949
03:26:27,120 --> 03:26:33,000
up a new, a new metaphysical framework, not to run

2950
03:26:33,040 --> 03:26:38,360
into absurdities with regards to their triadology. But what's important

2951
03:26:38,399 --> 03:26:43,799
here is is that though they don't express the Trinity

2952
03:26:44,479 --> 03:26:50,680
in terms of parsupa language, they don't actually condemn.

2953
03:26:52,159 --> 03:26:57,120
Speaker 2: Bye bye Okay, So when you're saying to when you

2954
03:26:57,200 --> 03:27:00,600
keep saying multiple hypostases, are you talking about like multiplied

2955
03:27:00,600 --> 03:27:04,680
to infinity? Are you just saying two hypostases in Christ

2956
03:27:04,719 --> 03:27:05,639
in their model?

2957
03:27:07,120 --> 03:27:08,120
Speaker 5: No, No, two two?

2958
03:27:09,040 --> 03:27:09,360
Speaker 2: Okay.

2959
03:27:10,239 --> 03:27:12,520
Speaker 5: So what they're doing is what they're doing is is

2960
03:27:12,799 --> 03:27:19,200
the way they segment the hypostasis and person ontologies. They're

2961
03:27:19,280 --> 03:27:23,680
then taking that distinction into their triadology. That's what the

2962
03:27:23,799 --> 03:27:24,440
BAY is doing.

2963
03:27:24,559 --> 03:27:27,399
Speaker 2: I understand that. I'm just confused by the terminology. I

2964
03:27:27,399 --> 03:27:30,879
think you said the multiplication of hopostosis.

2965
03:27:31,079 --> 03:27:33,879
Speaker 5: So yeah, So basically what I'm saying here is is

2966
03:27:33,920 --> 03:27:40,959
that they are trying to say that the hippostatic count

2967
03:27:41,319 --> 03:27:45,120
does not increase the ontological count in terms of person

2968
03:27:47,280 --> 03:27:49,440
That's what that's the move that they're trying to make.

2969
03:27:49,600 --> 03:27:53,319
That's what they metaphysically want to try and do. And

2970
03:27:53,360 --> 03:27:57,000
so it's I say multiple, but.

2971
03:27:57,000 --> 03:27:59,479
Speaker 2: You're you're talking about in Christ, not in Trinity, right,

2972
03:27:59,559 --> 03:28:04,200
So Christ, So in Christ it's a prosopic union, which

2973
03:28:04,319 --> 03:28:10,959
that's the level of unity, but the distinctions are concretized hypostasis,

2974
03:28:11,120 --> 03:28:16,840
because there is no abstract hypostasis. Every hypostyism must be concretized. Yeah,

2975
03:28:16,879 --> 03:28:20,040
every nature has to be That's what I mean. Yeah, yeah,

2976
03:28:20,079 --> 03:28:24,239
And then that's what a hypostasis is, is a concretized nature, right, But.

2977
03:28:24,239 --> 03:28:27,399
Speaker 5: It's it's a concretized nature in the sense of just

2978
03:28:27,399 --> 03:28:29,879
the natural properties. It's like a blank slate.

2979
03:28:30,280 --> 03:28:32,760
Speaker 2: Yes, it's not. It's not what we call a pro

2980
03:28:32,840 --> 03:28:34,200
s upon or hypostasis.

2981
03:28:34,399 --> 03:28:34,840
Speaker 5: Correct.

2982
03:28:35,120 --> 03:28:35,559
Speaker 6: Correct.

2983
03:28:35,680 --> 03:28:37,600
Speaker 5: So what they do is that they didn't have a

2984
03:28:37,799 --> 03:28:44,000
separate ontology. That is what gives the individual expression of

2985
03:28:44,239 --> 03:28:48,799
that hypostasis. And so this is how they're defining their

2986
03:28:48,840 --> 03:28:54,000
prosopic union. How Jesus gets the identity of the Sun

2987
03:28:54,399 --> 03:28:58,920
because those properties that are giftable to him by the Sun.

2988
03:28:59,520 --> 03:29:00,600
Speaker 6: In the union.

2989
03:29:01,360 --> 03:29:04,000
Speaker 2: But now you mentioned will, I mean, what what's the

2990
03:29:04,079 --> 03:29:06,920
giftable property? What are we talking about here, so.

2991
03:29:07,200 --> 03:29:10,840
Speaker 5: That the human Jesus always wills in accordance to the

2992
03:29:10,879 --> 03:29:11,440
divine will.

2993
03:29:11,600 --> 03:29:14,280
Speaker 2: Is that the only giftable property is this will.

2994
03:29:15,000 --> 03:29:18,399
Speaker 5: That's the main one. Uh, it's there's there's a paper

2995
03:29:18,479 --> 03:29:22,840
by Chestnut that really goes into detail, and this is

2996
03:29:23,000 --> 03:29:26,879
basically the the crux of the union. It's a union

2997
03:29:27,000 --> 03:29:27,639
of wills.

2998
03:29:29,280 --> 03:29:32,159
Speaker 2: But I mean, yeah, that's that I knew, which I

2999
03:29:32,159 --> 03:29:36,840
mean because yeah, that's that's the extent of Yeah, my

3000
03:29:36,920 --> 03:29:39,239
knowledge and Storianism. I didn't go I've not gone into

3001
03:29:39,239 --> 03:29:41,680
these other figures, like almost.

3002
03:29:41,760 --> 03:29:45,639
Speaker 5: What is proper to person? It can go beyond just that.

3003
03:29:45,840 --> 03:29:48,760
It's like, for example, what distinguished and I have a

3004
03:29:48,799 --> 03:29:51,920
slide that will get into this. What on their scheme

3005
03:29:52,120 --> 03:29:55,520
goes into person is like for example, you are the

3006
03:29:55,520 --> 03:29:59,200
son of so and so you are of certain age.

3007
03:29:59,680 --> 03:30:04,719
It's all of the characteristics that are unique to you,

3008
03:30:04,840 --> 03:30:10,000
that particularize you from somebody else. It's not so much

3009
03:30:10,120 --> 03:30:15,520
qualities that give you concrete existence. It's what allows distinction

3010
03:30:16,000 --> 03:30:19,520
between you and somebody else, because it's the hypostasis that

3011
03:30:19,559 --> 03:30:22,959
gives you the existence. But it's not what allows you

3012
03:30:23,319 --> 03:30:27,040
to be differentiated. It just gives you an ontological count.

3013
03:30:27,799 --> 03:30:32,639
And So, for them, what is the one property that

3014
03:30:32,719 --> 03:30:38,040
can be shared between divinity and humanity. It's the will.

3015
03:30:38,280 --> 03:30:43,600
It's to act in accordance to what God wants. And

3016
03:30:43,680 --> 03:30:48,680
so Christ acts in accordance to God's will because he

3017
03:30:48,840 --> 03:30:49,559
has well.

3018
03:30:49,479 --> 03:30:52,399
Speaker 2: That's the union of will. Right, so union of will,

3019
03:30:53,200 --> 03:30:55,559
and this all ultimately just hinges on the fact that

3020
03:30:55,600 --> 03:30:58,399
for them there's only particular natures right.

3021
03:30:58,280 --> 03:31:03,159
Speaker 5: Correct, correct, It's only particular natures, and it's it's at

3022
03:31:03,200 --> 03:31:07,559
the heart of why they have to maintain two hypostasis

3023
03:31:07,600 --> 03:31:11,280
or to knuma. Despite that, they'll say, well, no, there's

3024
03:31:11,280 --> 03:31:16,120
no equivalence between khnuman hypostasis. Well, there isn't if by

3025
03:31:16,200 --> 03:31:20,520
hypostasis you mean the way the Cappadocians meant it. But

3026
03:31:21,840 --> 03:31:25,680
there is a sense in which hypostasis can be understood

3027
03:31:25,680 --> 03:31:28,920
as just a concretization of the nature, and it's in

3028
03:31:28,959 --> 03:31:32,200
that sense that Numa is equally.

3029
03:31:32,319 --> 03:31:35,040
Speaker 2: Do you think that they are just still utilizing the

3030
03:31:35,079 --> 03:31:38,120
older nicene usage? Is that part of the problem here?

3031
03:31:38,159 --> 03:31:40,120
Speaker 5: You will see that. You will see that in the

3032
03:31:40,239 --> 03:31:47,559
stories where hypostasis has an older nicene usage, but nevertheless,

3033
03:31:47,840 --> 03:31:51,440
when it's used in order to talk about it in

3034
03:31:51,479 --> 03:31:55,200
any substantive way, that hypostasis has to have some kind

3035
03:31:55,239 --> 03:31:59,079
of concretization and there's no way of getting getting around

3036
03:31:59,079 --> 03:32:00,520
that in their their scheme.

3037
03:32:03,399 --> 03:32:08,040
Speaker 2: Well, I think, I mean eventually that becomes orthodox as well. Uh,

3038
03:32:08,200 --> 03:32:10,520
there's no there are no abstracted natures, and I mean

3039
03:32:10,559 --> 03:32:14,200
Ceril agrees with that too, And that's why an hypostaton

3040
03:32:14,319 --> 03:32:17,239
comes to answer that that that question or that challenge

3041
03:32:17,239 --> 03:32:21,959
that every nature that exists, exists in some subject that

3042
03:32:22,040 --> 03:32:22,760
has the nature.

3043
03:32:23,399 --> 03:32:29,639
Speaker 5: Right, it's hypos, right, But the metaphysical constraint that the Nestorians.

3044
03:32:28,959 --> 03:32:32,399
Speaker 2: They're reductionists, so they're saying that that that's that's what

3045
03:32:33,040 --> 03:32:38,520
makes that's what a person is is a concreteized, individualized nature,

3046
03:32:38,520 --> 03:32:42,040
a particular nature. And that's why this would be the

3047
03:32:42,079 --> 03:32:44,680
same error as John Philipponis, even though he's not an historian.

3048
03:32:45,120 --> 03:32:49,120
It's the exact same mistake which would lead to triteism.

3049
03:32:48,319 --> 03:32:52,000
Speaker 5: Right right, they know that's exactly the metaphysical move because

3050
03:32:52,159 --> 03:32:58,319
for them it you cannot like, even if there is

3051
03:32:58,360 --> 03:33:01,360
something similar in our scheme, would we're saying here is

3052
03:33:01,879 --> 03:33:07,120
what the move that we're not granting is this restriction

3053
03:33:08,000 --> 03:33:13,239
in terms of who can be the subject of the

3054
03:33:13,280 --> 03:33:18,000
expression of a nature. So for us, we allow the

3055
03:33:18,040 --> 03:33:22,040
divine hypostasis, that is, the sun to be the subject.

3056
03:33:21,639 --> 03:33:25,639
Speaker 2: For exact Yeah, and that's what answers the there's a

3057
03:33:28,360 --> 03:33:32,479
Oriental in the chat who's saying that very thing, And

3058
03:33:32,600 --> 03:33:36,000
the answer to that is what Kay just said. The

3059
03:33:36,040 --> 03:33:40,840
Son is not the only subject of all the incarnate

3060
03:33:40,920 --> 03:33:44,840
actions of Christ is the divine subject of the word

3061
03:33:44,959 --> 03:33:48,399
the logos, So the person is saying, Well, doesn't Leo

3062
03:33:48,520 --> 03:33:54,040
say what Nestoria says, Doesn't he call it a prosopic union? Yes,

3063
03:33:54,079 --> 03:33:57,440
but when Leo says the union is prosopic, he means

3064
03:33:57,440 --> 03:34:02,559
it in the Cappadocian sense of upon, meaning hypostasis, not

3065
03:34:02,760 --> 03:34:06,159
what Nestoria says. So you see, and you notice right there,

3066
03:34:06,959 --> 03:34:11,280
the monophysite guy in the chat is thinking that we're

3067
03:34:11,399 --> 03:34:13,840
using pros upon the same way as Mystorius, and Leo's

3068
03:34:13,879 --> 03:34:15,280
using it the same way as Nisorius is not.

3069
03:34:16,159 --> 03:34:19,319
Speaker 5: And it's not it's completely wrong because it's a different

3070
03:34:19,440 --> 03:34:23,799
metaphysical ontology given to Prosus in the church.

3071
03:34:24,000 --> 03:34:26,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, that proves right there, this guy's mistake proves

3072
03:34:26,680 --> 03:34:29,040
what we're saying. Is that they see a word they

3073
03:34:29,079 --> 03:34:34,200
think pro prosopic union. That's what Leo says, union, accordinative prosopon.

3074
03:34:34,600 --> 03:34:37,920
Therefore he's a historian. No, did you not see where

3075
03:34:37,959 --> 03:34:43,760
Kai literally just showed you that the Cappadocian usage is

3076
03:34:44,159 --> 03:34:50,200
for person pros upon person hypostasis. That's not what Nasaurius

3077
03:34:50,200 --> 03:34:50,520
is saying.

3078
03:34:51,559 --> 03:34:53,920
Speaker 3: And it's important to understand, right, Like, one of the

3079
03:34:53,920 --> 03:34:58,799
points Kai mentioned is that you know both the monopsized

3080
03:34:58,840 --> 03:35:01,399
and your sex use the term high static union, right,

3081
03:35:01,959 --> 03:35:04,239
but what do you mean we mean there's a unions?

3082
03:35:04,280 --> 03:35:08,559
Aren't natures in the hyperstatus of Christ? Monophysides think it's

3083
03:35:08,559 --> 03:35:11,799
a union of two hyperstaces. It's the same term the

3084
03:35:12,319 --> 03:35:16,319
completely different ideas or completely different ideas. This is just

3085
03:35:16,360 --> 03:35:19,600
one example of this, right, So you can say prosopic

3086
03:35:19,760 --> 03:35:22,799
union to mean that the two natures are united in

3087
03:35:22,840 --> 03:35:26,920
the one person in one prosepon. Okay, but what Kai

3088
03:35:27,040 --> 03:35:29,879
is talking about here, but the Storians is completely different.

3089
03:35:30,159 --> 03:35:33,280
And you know, like the stream has been very long,

3090
03:35:34,200 --> 03:35:36,639
But this is why it's long, because we have to

3091
03:35:36,639 --> 03:35:39,440
repeat the sober and over again that this is the

3092
03:35:39,479 --> 03:35:42,799
basic mistake that people, you know, put themselves in.

3093
03:35:42,879 --> 03:35:45,680
Speaker 2: There's word concept fallacy where they see a word and

3094
03:35:45,680 --> 03:35:48,040
they think that there only has one meaning, and then it

3095
03:35:48,079 --> 03:35:50,959
always means that, and so therefore everybody's confused and thinks

3096
03:35:51,000 --> 03:35:53,520
of everybody's heretics. I'm not saying there aren't actual heretics.

3097
03:35:53,520 --> 03:35:55,440
I'm just saying that a lot of this confusion is

3098
03:35:55,479 --> 03:35:57,959
over assuming that the word always has the same reference

3099
03:35:58,000 --> 03:36:00,200
or meaning, and it depends on the paradigm that was

3100
03:36:00,280 --> 03:36:01,120
caused point the very.

3101
03:36:01,079 --> 03:36:08,319
Speaker 5: Beginning, exactly exactly, and I'm in developing the Nestorian paradigm.

3102
03:36:08,680 --> 03:36:14,200
I'm showing you how it unfolds that there really are

3103
03:36:14,639 --> 03:36:19,280
two persons. According to Nistorians theology. You in the Church

3104
03:36:19,319 --> 03:36:21,959
of the East can cry day and night that they

3105
03:36:22,000 --> 03:36:25,600
believe in one person. One person. You do not mean

3106
03:36:25,680 --> 03:36:33,639
it in the Cappadocian sense. Okay, you have two subjects,

3107
03:36:34,120 --> 03:36:40,920
two hippostatic underlying ontologies. That is nestorian that is Nestorianism.

3108
03:36:41,079 --> 03:36:44,479
And when you say that you believe in one person,

3109
03:36:44,799 --> 03:36:49,280
you are not saying the same thing as the Orthodox

3110
03:36:49,479 --> 03:36:56,520
who adhere to the Cappadocian tradition. But let's look now

3111
03:36:56,600 --> 03:37:01,239
at the Orthodox Christological paradigm. And I'm going to take

3112
03:37:02,360 --> 03:37:09,040
three key statements from a work by Saint Cyril, and

3113
03:37:09,079 --> 03:37:15,000
it's in his letter to Emperor Theodosius. And this is

3114
03:37:15,040 --> 03:37:20,879
found in three Christological tree Tises that was translated by

3115
03:37:23,520 --> 03:37:25,799
King Dan King I can't remember the name. I have

3116
03:37:25,879 --> 03:37:29,040
him in the citations later on in the slides. And

3117
03:37:29,319 --> 03:37:31,200
the point here is is now I'm going to change

3118
03:37:31,200 --> 03:37:33,120
a little bit gears, and I'm going to show you

3119
03:37:33,399 --> 03:37:38,520
what Saint Cyril is basically just saying in expressive language

3120
03:37:39,520 --> 03:37:43,479
of what are some of the constraints metaphysical constraints for

3121
03:37:43,799 --> 03:37:48,559
understanding the Orthodox Cristological paradigm. So this is a way

3122
03:37:48,639 --> 03:37:54,680
to move away from relying on formulaic keywords to construct

3123
03:37:54,719 --> 03:38:02,319
your paradigm. It's constructing your paradigm based on ideas. And

3124
03:38:02,360 --> 03:38:07,239
so he's saying that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday

3125
03:38:07,559 --> 03:38:13,600
and today and forever. So what is exactly the same

3126
03:38:14,680 --> 03:38:21,040
if he takes on humanity? What remains the same in

3127
03:38:21,159 --> 03:38:23,079
Jesus Christ. So that's the first thing.

3128
03:38:23,799 --> 03:38:28,079
Speaker 2: And by the way, a reminder, everybody heard this or

3129
03:38:28,120 --> 03:38:32,879
sung this today in the liturgy. He became man without change.

3130
03:38:33,360 --> 03:38:39,639
Speaker 5: Yes, there is one son and one Lord Jesus to Christ,

3131
03:38:40,159 --> 03:38:49,280
both before in fleshing and after appearing as human. Even

3132
03:38:49,319 --> 03:38:53,239
when he, meaning the Logos, is conceived of in his

3133
03:38:53,440 --> 03:38:59,520
incarnate state, he is none other than the divine Creator.

3134
03:39:02,440 --> 03:39:08,879
So just those three statements alone, those three statements alone,

3135
03:39:09,200 --> 03:39:14,840
we already have multiple metaphysical constraints that we can identify

3136
03:39:15,440 --> 03:39:21,280
in Saint Cyril. Ontologically, Saint Cyril is saying that the

3137
03:39:21,319 --> 03:39:25,520
Son equals the Logos equals the Lord equals Jesus equals

3138
03:39:25,600 --> 03:39:32,120
Christ in the ontology, the underlying ontology. Right in those statements,

3139
03:39:32,120 --> 03:39:36,319
you see that Christ is one divine subject.

3140
03:39:36,479 --> 03:39:39,000
Speaker 2: And this is why you've heard me for so long,

3141
03:39:39,319 --> 03:39:44,280
always constantly repeating the sole subject of all the incarnate

3142
03:39:44,360 --> 03:39:47,719
actions of Christ is the second person of the trinity,

3143
03:39:48,000 --> 03:39:50,159
the logos, because it's directly from Cyril.

3144
03:39:50,680 --> 03:39:55,760
Speaker 5: Yes, Christ's begot in existence from the Father does not

3145
03:39:56,600 --> 03:40:02,479
change as a result of incarnating, and that the incarnation

3146
03:40:03,440 --> 03:40:11,799
Christ assumes an additional mode of existence human. That is

3147
03:40:11,840 --> 03:40:17,079
what those three statements are saying. And if you do

3148
03:40:17,159 --> 03:40:23,639
not see that from those three statements, you have no

3149
03:40:23,840 --> 03:40:31,440
business talking apologetics. It means you're too low IQ to

3150
03:40:31,559 --> 03:40:36,600
understand what Saint Cyril is saying. Those three statements alone

3151
03:40:36,959 --> 03:40:44,440
give you those metaphysical constraints, and anything that contradicts this

3152
03:40:44,559 --> 03:40:50,760
paradigm must be rejected. And this is demonstration that the

3153
03:40:50,879 --> 03:40:57,200
orthodox Christological paradigm or the metaphysics is rooted in historical Christianity.

3154
03:40:58,760 --> 03:41:02,239
But above all, I'm again going to stress the point

3155
03:41:03,000 --> 03:41:08,000
that the paradigm is established by concepts and not by

3156
03:41:08,040 --> 03:41:12,799
specific terms like nature or hypostasis, though Saint Ciol will

3157
03:41:12,879 --> 03:41:17,360
use those terms. You don't need those specific terms to

3158
03:41:17,520 --> 03:41:22,879
establish your paradigm. The latter meaning these terms, when you

3159
03:41:23,159 --> 03:41:34,120
properly used, they reflect the paradigm not constructed. Okay, let's

3160
03:41:34,120 --> 03:41:37,840
get into some explicite.

3161
03:41:38,639 --> 03:41:40,840
Speaker 2: How much longer do we have because we're we're at

3162
03:41:40,920 --> 03:41:43,719
like four almost four hours, so I'm not.

3163
03:41:43,760 --> 03:41:44,360
Speaker 5: I can keep going.

3164
03:41:44,879 --> 03:41:45,719
Speaker 6: I can just keep going.

3165
03:41:46,879 --> 03:41:48,920
Speaker 2: It's really I'm asking how much longer?

3166
03:41:51,280 --> 03:41:53,120
Speaker 6: What slide am I at here? Are going to move this?

3167
03:41:53,280 --> 03:41:54,559
Thirty three of sixty eight?

3168
03:41:57,799 --> 03:42:02,719
Speaker 5: I could probably start a little bit faster or we I.

3169
03:42:02,639 --> 03:42:04,440
Speaker 2: Mean, I can't do a six hour stream, dude, I mean,

3170
03:42:04,479 --> 03:42:06,520
I got I'm already, I'm already getting a headache. I'm

3171
03:42:06,520 --> 03:42:09,680
just one sorry for we can break this up into

3172
03:42:09,799 --> 03:42:11,000
as many parts as you need.

3173
03:42:11,120 --> 03:42:13,280
Speaker 3: What we can do. Here's an idea that I have.

3174
03:42:13,440 --> 03:42:15,920
I think what we can do is right now, I

3175
03:42:15,959 --> 03:42:18,559
think we stopped talking about the historian part, right, so

3176
03:42:18,600 --> 03:42:22,719
we've been moving into the Orthodox Christology part, and then

3177
03:42:22,760 --> 03:42:25,000
we're going to be moving into the monofside part. So

3178
03:42:25,120 --> 03:42:27,719
I think that that can be like its own specific stream,

3179
03:42:27,840 --> 03:42:29,440
like what do you guys think? And I think we

3180
03:42:29,479 --> 03:42:30,520
can kind of like do it.

3181
03:42:31,520 --> 03:42:34,239
Speaker 2: So, I mean, look, college classes I'm not faulting you

3182
03:42:34,280 --> 03:42:34,559
at all.

3183
03:42:35,239 --> 03:42:35,399
Speaker 3: Kay.

3184
03:42:35,680 --> 03:42:38,680
Speaker 2: I'm happy to go for many, many hours as well.

3185
03:42:38,760 --> 03:42:40,840
I do long live streams as you know. But I

3186
03:42:40,879 --> 03:42:42,920
think the problem is that this is really heavy material,

3187
03:42:43,680 --> 03:42:46,959
and to go over four hours on really heavy material

3188
03:42:47,159 --> 03:42:49,360
is a lot for an audience. Like we went from

3189
03:42:50,840 --> 03:42:53,280
seven eight hundred down to like three hundred because it's

3190
03:42:53,280 --> 03:42:55,520
just I think it's heavy, so people need to digest it.

3191
03:42:55,639 --> 03:42:59,319
So I mean we can, we can do it. This

3192
03:42:59,440 --> 03:43:01,920
doesn't have to be a nine part series. It can

3193
03:43:01,959 --> 03:43:03,159
be twenty parts series.

3194
03:43:03,239 --> 03:43:04,920
Speaker 5: Twenty parts series. Yeah, that's fine.

3195
03:43:05,399 --> 03:43:07,719
Speaker 6: How many more sites do I have on the Christology?

3196
03:43:08,239 --> 03:43:09,000
Speaker 5: I'm on thirty three?

3197
03:43:09,280 --> 03:43:11,920
Speaker 3: So, like you just you just talked about like I think,

3198
03:43:12,000 --> 03:43:15,520
like you just talked about the historian ontology, like with

3199
03:43:15,639 --> 03:43:21,280
the understanding of how they understand essence, hype stasis, prosopon

3200
03:43:22,040 --> 03:43:24,200
and so right now we're kind of like getting to

3201
03:43:24,239 --> 03:43:28,639
the part where like the confessional statements about the Orthodox

3202
03:43:28,840 --> 03:43:31,760
Christological paradigm, right, so I think we can kind of

3203
03:43:31,799 --> 03:43:34,559
just like end it there and then in the next

3204
03:43:34,600 --> 03:43:37,319
three we can start with the Orthodox Christological paradigm and

3205
03:43:37,399 --> 03:43:39,319
like finish the rest of the time, right, Yeah, I

3206
03:43:39,360 --> 03:43:41,840
think that can kind of be We can do that

3207
03:43:42,399 --> 03:43:43,000
pretty much.

3208
03:43:43,360 --> 03:43:44,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm good with that.

3209
03:43:44,600 --> 03:43:45,920
Speaker 5: I mean, if you guys want to end it on

3210
03:43:45,959 --> 03:43:47,639
this note and then we'll just kick up.

3211
03:43:47,799 --> 03:43:50,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because we're we're hitting about four hours, so

3212
03:43:50,600 --> 03:43:53,639
let's let's just pick it up the next next time,

3213
03:43:53,639 --> 03:43:55,799
for sure, go ahead and close out whatever you want

3214
03:43:55,799 --> 03:43:56,360
to close out.

3215
03:43:57,040 --> 03:43:59,000
Speaker 5: No, I mean, in this particular case, because it is

3216
03:43:59,079 --> 03:44:03,959
kind of transitioning into looking at various texts that basically

3217
03:44:04,159 --> 03:44:08,440
lays out the christological paradigm in a concilier fashion, I

3218
03:44:08,479 --> 03:44:12,079
would rather than just start fresh the next stream.

3219
03:44:12,360 --> 03:44:14,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can kind of like recap pretty much like

3220
03:44:15,319 --> 03:44:17,680
a ten minute recap in the extreme, kind of like

3221
03:44:17,760 --> 03:44:19,479
what we talked and then just move on.

3222
03:44:19,639 --> 03:44:22,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, all right, Well, so we do have super chats.

3223
03:44:22,280 --> 03:44:24,920
We got cards one dollar God bless from my god

3224
03:44:24,959 --> 03:44:27,879
cousin's wedding, and I already did that last time. Let's

3225
03:44:27,879 --> 03:44:34,600
see Jmail five dollars please. Interview Dario Fernandez Moreo. He

3226
03:44:34,680 --> 03:44:40,079
wrote Myth of Andalusia Paradise Muslims, Christians and Jews and

3227
03:44:40,280 --> 03:44:43,280
Islamic rule in Spain. Well, I have to read the

3228
03:44:43,280 --> 03:44:45,920
book first before I know if I want to but

3229
03:44:46,000 --> 03:44:47,840
thank you for that monarch. You enjoy your dollars. She's

3230
03:44:47,879 --> 03:44:51,200
not real quick. Were you able to get the Jonas

3231
03:44:51,200 --> 03:44:54,600
Salk Survival of Wisest book for reasonable price? I bought

3232
03:44:54,600 --> 03:44:57,440
it on Amazon one day when it popped up years ago.

3233
03:44:57,879 --> 03:44:59,879
It's out of print. It's very rare, so I doubt

3234
03:44:59,879 --> 03:45:01,760
you be able to find it. Do you think gil

3235
03:45:01,760 --> 03:45:05,840
Bates is going to larp as Salk when he's reincarnated?

3236
03:45:06,280 --> 03:45:08,879
Could be? JTB three dollars, takeet you so much. Trust

3237
03:45:08,879 --> 03:45:11,440
Games fifty five dollars and eighty one cents, thank you

3238
03:45:11,520 --> 03:45:16,120
so much, and didn't have any comments. Anonymous five dollars.

3239
03:45:16,520 --> 03:45:19,600
Do you think the CAA or similar organizations have infiltrated

3240
03:45:19,639 --> 03:45:24,120
the electronic music scene? Perhaps famous DJs Tis Doo, de Rude,

3241
03:45:24,120 --> 03:45:27,879
et cetera. Could they be utilized like the way that

3242
03:45:28,000 --> 03:45:31,639
Taylor Swift was possibly user Elvis? Absolutely? I think DJs

3243
03:45:31,639 --> 03:45:36,440
could definitely be used in many capacities. I mean, drug running, trafficking,

3244
03:45:36,479 --> 03:45:38,600
et cetera. I don't know about those specific DJs, but

3245
03:45:38,600 --> 03:45:41,840
it's definitely possible. Lila secure three dollars. What do you

3246
03:45:41,840 --> 03:45:45,959
think about the Pashita? Is it a faithful translation? I

3247
03:45:45,959 --> 03:45:48,639
don't know. I mean, I'm familiar with it. I know

3248
03:45:48,680 --> 03:45:51,520
it's you know, used, and it's old and it's ancient,

3249
03:45:51,600 --> 03:45:54,760
But I don't know if there's ky do you know

3250
03:45:54,760 --> 03:45:57,239
if there's errors from the theology that are in the

3251
03:45:57,239 --> 03:45:58,239
Syriac translation.

3252
03:45:58,879 --> 03:46:02,399
Speaker 5: It's a load of questions because the Pashita translations you

3253
03:46:02,479 --> 03:46:05,600
have to distinguish between Old Testament and New Testament, because

3254
03:46:05,639 --> 03:46:10,799
the Old Testament is based directly from like an underlying

3255
03:46:10,840 --> 03:46:15,280
massoretic text, and so it contains a lot of errors

3256
03:46:16,079 --> 03:46:19,120
from the Masoretic text that we would disagree with, and

3257
03:46:19,159 --> 03:46:23,760
it deviates from the Septuagint from the New Testament side.

3258
03:46:24,200 --> 03:46:28,879
For the most part, it's it's adequate. There are certain

3259
03:46:28,959 --> 03:46:34,799
places where it will deviate in reflecting the Greek text,

3260
03:46:35,280 --> 03:46:40,079
but as far as I'm aware, having read through the Pushita,

3261
03:46:40,360 --> 03:46:44,879
there wasn't anything glaringly that I would reject. I think

3262
03:46:44,920 --> 03:46:49,280
it's I think it's fairly representative the New Testament.

3263
03:46:49,639 --> 03:46:53,719
Speaker 2: Gotcha, Matthew, five dollars. Behold how good and enjoyous it

3264
03:46:53,760 --> 03:46:56,680
is for brethren, juball and unity. Sol'mon'll tarry two. This

3265
03:46:56,760 --> 03:46:58,840
is the unity within the Orthodox Body of Christ, the

3266
03:46:58,920 --> 03:47:00,959
Church by the way, say how to Kai and David.

3267
03:47:01,000 --> 03:47:04,680
The old OG's crew crew is back. Yeah, exactly, Minuka

3268
03:47:04,760 --> 03:47:08,719
hundred dollars Jay, as black people would say, the stream

3269
03:47:08,799 --> 03:47:12,760
is lit. Absolutely, Kai has brought the goods today. The

3270
03:47:12,840 --> 03:47:16,159
receipts Christen five dollars. Oh, guy, listened to all this

3271
03:47:16,239 --> 03:47:19,360
presentation again, O spergs in the chat were making it

3272
03:47:19,399 --> 03:47:23,319
difficult and we're pretty distracting. I don't doubt that a

3273
03:47:23,360 --> 03:47:25,920
well emmanual five dollars. Thank you, thank you. You guys

3274
03:47:25,920 --> 03:47:28,200
need to think Kai and of course David two. Both

3275
03:47:28,399 --> 03:47:31,520
both these guys have really done super in depth research

3276
03:47:31,639 --> 03:47:36,920
on the monopha site and a storing question. So thanks

3277
03:47:37,000 --> 03:47:40,879
to them for sure. Orthodox for Nissa's five dollars. The

3278
03:47:40,920 --> 03:47:44,799
band who does not accept fully unconsciously a coherent doctrine

3279
03:47:44,840 --> 03:47:48,600
of truth, as the Orthodox Christian revelation provides, is forced

3280
03:47:48,639 --> 03:47:51,920
if he has any pretensions to knowledge whatever whatsoever, to

3281
03:47:52,000 --> 03:47:55,719
seek such doctrines elsewhere. Father sepfrom Rose Nihilism. It's a

3282
03:47:55,760 --> 03:47:59,079
classic book. Absolutely, Elias one dollar JF. I had a

3283
03:47:59,079 --> 03:48:02,879
sip of red wine and I immediately saw the angel

3284
03:48:02,959 --> 03:48:04,920
Kianti come to me in a dream and told me

3285
03:48:05,000 --> 03:48:08,719
to worship Phronsiala. Should I start my own megachurch for

3286
03:48:08,799 --> 03:48:11,639
wine moms, Yes, and you would be the prophet of

3287
03:48:11,680 --> 03:48:15,000
that religion much like Muhammad.

3288
03:48:15,799 --> 03:48:16,200
Speaker 3: Awesome.

3289
03:48:16,280 --> 03:48:20,399
Speaker 2: So guys, if you want to remember to subscribe to

3290
03:48:20,799 --> 03:48:24,840
Kai O read orthodoxta LinkedIn the tile description and to

3291
03:48:25,040 --> 03:48:29,680
David as well. Oh read David Orhan anything you guys

3292
03:48:29,680 --> 03:48:32,319
want to leave us with before we close it out.

3293
03:48:32,399 --> 03:48:34,559
And uh, Kai, do you have any ideas and when

3294
03:48:34,600 --> 03:48:36,000
you want to try to do the part two?

3295
03:48:38,559 --> 03:48:41,399
Speaker 5: I'm fairly open on Sundays now.

3296
03:48:41,440 --> 03:48:44,680
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, we can definitely make it a Sunday think yeah, if.

3297
03:48:44,760 --> 03:48:49,559
Speaker 5: If you want, and for every couple of weeks it

3298
03:48:49,600 --> 03:48:52,840
doesn't really doesn't really matter for me, but it will

3299
03:48:52,879 --> 03:48:53,920
have to be Basically.

3300
03:48:53,840 --> 03:48:56,079
Speaker 2: I mean this is this is essentially like a graduate

3301
03:48:56,200 --> 03:48:58,440
level course. This is excellent. So I mean people should

3302
03:48:58,479 --> 03:49:02,559
really be supported and be thankful that you know you've

3303
03:49:02,559 --> 03:49:04,079
gone to all this trouble and put in all this

3304
03:49:04,120 --> 03:49:06,840
time and effort. I mean this is literally actually this

3305
03:49:06,920 --> 03:49:09,639
is better than what you get in seminary. So I mean,

3306
03:49:09,680 --> 03:49:11,719
this is this is top notch. I hope you guys

3307
03:49:11,760 --> 03:49:16,360
appreciate this, share this, but yeah, we'll be back either

3308
03:49:16,440 --> 03:49:21,879
this Sunday or the Sunday after for sure. Yeah, thanks, Yeah,

3309
03:49:22,000 --> 03:49:25,079
anything else, David, No.

3310
03:49:25,319 --> 03:49:27,840
Speaker 3: Just as as you said, I think this is like

3311
03:49:28,040 --> 03:49:31,719
going to be very high quality in general, and of

3312
03:49:31,760 --> 03:49:33,280
course it's going to be difficult, but it's going to

3313
03:49:33,319 --> 03:49:35,200
be one of these things that's kind of I think, Yeah,

3314
03:49:35,200 --> 03:49:38,000
it's going to be like the main resource that we

3315
03:49:38,079 --> 03:49:42,159
can use to kind of settle I think the issue

3316
03:49:42,280 --> 03:49:47,000
in certain regards. And as I said, I'm excited for

3317
03:49:47,360 --> 03:49:49,280
the second part because I think there's going to be

3318
03:49:49,280 --> 03:49:52,520
a lot of like really good things, especially and in

3319
03:49:52,639 --> 03:49:57,799
terms of certain Christological stuff, and like I've given hints

3320
03:49:57,840 --> 03:50:01,319
of it in terms of certain arguments, and I think

3321
03:50:01,360 --> 03:50:04,600
that's going to be like very beneficial particularity. Other than that,

3322
03:50:04,639 --> 03:50:07,399
I kind of just hang around on my channel for

3323
03:50:07,440 --> 03:50:10,600
the most part. But I've been much I've been busier,

3324
03:50:10,680 --> 03:50:12,719
so I haven't been able to make as many videos

3325
03:50:12,760 --> 03:50:13,319
as I used to.

3326
03:50:13,559 --> 03:50:15,840
Speaker 2: Well, one question for you, because David, you know your

3327
03:50:16,120 --> 03:50:19,520
interactions and the depth with which you've you know, gone

3328
03:50:19,559 --> 03:50:24,200
in terms of opposing these positions is a lot deeper

3329
03:50:24,239 --> 03:50:25,680
than I have. I mean this, you've been doing this

3330
03:50:25,760 --> 03:50:29,760
since twenty eighteen, maybe even earlier. What do you anticipate

3331
03:50:30,559 --> 03:50:34,440
the initial reactions of the Orientals to this, How do

3332
03:50:34,479 --> 03:50:35,920
you think they're going to Are they just going to

3333
03:50:35,959 --> 03:50:38,120
spurg out and quote mine and not really deal with the.

3334
03:50:38,079 --> 03:50:43,000
Speaker 3: Depth from my experenciple, I will firstly say, I think

3335
03:50:43,040 --> 03:50:46,920
I started as at twenty twenty. I don't remember exactly

3336
03:50:47,120 --> 03:50:52,000
van and the irony is the only reason I like

3337
03:50:52,239 --> 03:50:55,680
I did what I did is because I was just

3338
03:50:55,760 --> 03:51:00,360
getting annoyed at, like my social media and my friends

3339
03:51:00,399 --> 03:51:04,559
social media being invaded by these people. So a lot

3340
03:51:04,600 --> 03:51:07,600
of people think like it's a reaction of us being mean. No,

3341
03:51:07,760 --> 03:51:11,399
I mean, it's the whole thing started because you know,

3342
03:51:11,520 --> 03:51:15,479
the whole thing started because frankly, like my friends and

3343
03:51:15,520 --> 03:51:19,760
I like we were being harassed, you know, on social media,

3344
03:51:20,239 --> 03:51:23,600
and it just kind of forced us to look into

3345
03:51:23,639 --> 03:51:26,719
it deeper. And I think, you know, I think it's

3346
03:51:26,799 --> 03:51:28,280
just going to be like what you get in your

3347
03:51:28,360 --> 03:51:30,479
life chat is just you're going to get a lot

3348
03:51:30,520 --> 03:51:34,159
of like posturing like you get with Muslims, right, Like

3349
03:51:34,239 --> 03:51:36,799
just a lot of posturing and people you know, should

3350
03:51:36,879 --> 03:51:40,639
really not care like what people online like say like

3351
03:51:40,879 --> 03:51:42,760
posture and like try to make you know, all of

3352
03:51:42,799 --> 03:51:46,559
You're right, there's no good arguments against us. You know, yeah,

3353
03:51:46,600 --> 03:51:49,920
everyone can say that. You know, I'm not here to

3354
03:51:50,319 --> 03:51:53,159
listen to what everyone can say. I'm here to listen

3355
03:51:53,200 --> 03:51:57,239
to what you know, very few men can say. And

3356
03:51:57,280 --> 03:52:00,479
that's what you want to You need to listen, right,

3357
03:52:01,520 --> 03:52:04,159
So this is why I think that's a great opportunity.

3358
03:52:04,239 --> 03:52:05,920
And I think what's going to happen pretty much like

3359
03:52:06,680 --> 03:52:08,840
it's just going to be, oh, you know, it's too long,

3360
03:52:09,000 --> 03:52:11,440
and what I see is like, oh, you know, he

3361
03:52:11,479 --> 03:52:14,840
doesn't understand or position. He doesn't he doesn't know anything

3362
03:52:14,879 --> 03:52:17,239
about it. There's no understandable position. I think that's basically

3363
03:52:17,280 --> 03:52:19,799
what's going to happen. Not no real critique, just kind

3364
03:52:19,799 --> 03:52:22,600
of again just like typical smear tactics is what I

3365
03:52:22,760 --> 03:52:24,840
what I see, what I've experienced.

3366
03:52:25,319 --> 03:52:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well maybe they'll take the.

3367
03:52:26,920 --> 03:52:28,639
Speaker 3: Funny thing is the funny thing is sorry, but the

3368
03:52:28,680 --> 03:52:32,399
funny thing is experienced even from their priests. That's the thing.

3369
03:52:32,719 --> 03:52:37,879
Speaker 2: So yeah, exactly, all right, Well it's again, it's gonna

3370
03:52:37,920 --> 03:52:38,239
be great.

3371
03:52:38,680 --> 03:52:39,120
Speaker 6: Get to Kay.

3372
03:52:39,239 --> 03:52:41,200
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, David, thank you so much. Anything

3373
03:52:41,200 --> 03:52:42,879
you want to leave us with Kay before we head out.

3374
03:52:43,639 --> 03:52:48,200
Speaker 5: No, just thanks Jay, wish everyone well and look forward

3375
03:52:48,239 --> 03:52:53,159
to continuing this. And let's just basically settle everything with

3376
03:52:53,239 --> 03:52:57,760
the Orientals and the Church of the East, and let's

3377
03:52:59,719 --> 03:53:02,719
show I've heard our flock, the Orthodox from succuming to

3378
03:53:02,879 --> 03:53:06,280
a lot of that stupidity being preached from those sides.

3379
03:53:07,040 --> 03:53:10,319
And I know I'll probably get a little bit of

3380
03:53:10,319 --> 03:53:17,120
flak for this, but I think this understanding of Apostolic

3381
03:53:17,479 --> 03:53:23,319
Christianity really needs to be confronted. Ecumenism is a serious threat.

3382
03:53:23,719 --> 03:53:29,600
It is a bigger threat, I would say, than Islam.

3383
03:53:30,799 --> 03:53:33,760
And I think the Orthodox need to be firm in

3384
03:53:33,799 --> 03:53:38,040
their position. They need to be uncompromising in their position.

3385
03:53:38,680 --> 03:53:41,120
They have to stand for the truth and to uphold

3386
03:53:41,120 --> 03:53:44,879
the Orthodoxy and don't let our saints to have died

3387
03:53:44,920 --> 03:53:45,319
in vain.

3388
03:53:46,559 --> 03:53:48,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, great point. Yet, and everybody over here on our

3389
03:53:48,799 --> 03:53:52,360
side is definitely anti ecumenists. So absolutely all right, Thank

3390
03:53:52,399 --> 03:53:54,760
you guys so much. Remember to like, share,