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Speaker 1: This is that Bigfoot podcast where hoaxes die, loud, myths

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get crushed, and the truth doesn't need permission. We don't

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do blurry, we don't do polite. We cut through crap

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and call it like it is. If you're here for

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feel good folklore, keep scrolling. But if you're fed up

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with the fake and hungry for real answers, let's go

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that Bigfoot podcast. We're not just hunting sasquatch, We're breaking

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the illusion wide open.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Hogan Hiro, how are you, my friend?

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Speaker 3: I'm done pretty well. How are you? Man? You had

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a camp out recently doing well?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad to be back.

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Speaker 4: I'd never like sleeping on a cot, but that kind

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of goes with camping. I don't do glamping. I actually

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do camping. We were about three plus hours away from

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us here and Lenore. We were out in an area

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in Tompkin, North Carolina. Interesting camp out, interesting place. I'd

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been there earlier this year we did a camp out

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in an area that was very close to there, over

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and Andrews, and we had taken people to this particular

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area and I actually interviewed a guy who had a

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sasquat siding literally to the entrance of this campground, so

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it was really cool to go back, take a group

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of I think we had fifteen people that were signed

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up to be on the camp out, so.

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Speaker 2: I was really looking forward to it.

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Speaker 4: Easy drive to get there, beautiful drive through the nanta

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Hala forest area, which I love.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, we had a great camp out.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 4: We're there Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and I just got

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back from that.

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Speaker 2: It's Tuesday as we record this.

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Speaker 4: I got back late Sunday evening and got back into

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the routine. Something we got to get into. I haven't

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really talked about it publicly yet because as of now

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what it was like. Last Thursday, I got the word

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that doctor Jeff Meldrim had passed away somewhat at least

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for me, unexpectedly, and I think it took the community

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by surprise because I had just seen Jeff up in

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the Smoky Mountains at the Great Smoky Mountain Bigfoot Conference

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at the end of July. So we're talking less than

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a month and a half ago. It was before the

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conference opened up for everybody. At nine o'clock, Jeff was

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setting up his booth. I just set my booth up

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and I took the opportunity to go over. This probably

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eight or eight fifteen, so there was nobody really milling

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around but us, and he was just sitting at his booth,

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getting his stuff ready for the day. And I went

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over and he had never seen my cast in person.

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He had seen pictures of him, he had seen the

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scans that Cliff had done and sent to him so

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he could look at him, but he hadn't actually seen

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or held the cast. So I walked over with the

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set of the cast. He was excited to see those

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and we talked and I could tell in the beginning

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of the conversation that it wasn't the same Jeff. There

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was clearly something off full disclosure. He said to me.

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Cognitively he had been he put it as slowing down,

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was his words, and he was having some memory and

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recall issues, which was very uncharacteristic for him, because Jeff

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can have a conversation about something that happened in nineteen

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seventy four and recall it. So it was very different.

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And I walked away from that conversation. We talked for

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about thirty minutes, and then we had to get ready

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because they were about to open up the doors. For

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the VIP folks, and he was talking about being very

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excited about retiring from the university next year. He was

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joking about losing all of his It wasn't really a joke.

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He was seriously contemplating what he was going to do

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because he was losing all that office space at Idaho

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State University where he's got all of these casts and

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all of his things he's collected over these decades.

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Speaker 2: He said, I got to figure.

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Speaker 4: Out what I'm going to do and how I'm going

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to wrestle some more space away from Lauren in our

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house so I can bring some of these casts home.

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And where am I going to put them? He said,

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Let's face it, when I leave the university, if I

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get an office at all, it's going to be a

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broom closet somewhere in the back of some random room.

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So we talked about that, and he was so excited

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about being able to slow down a little bit, spend

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more time I'm on the big Foot stuff, and just

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enjoy retirement. It really hit me like a ton of bricks.

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I was getting text messages before the actual announcement was made,

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so I knew it was coming. Everybody out of respect

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I won't say everybody, because not everybody did this. Most

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people waited for Lauren, his wife, to make the announcement

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on his Facebook that he had passed away. There are

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some people out there who had some insider information that

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felt the need to be first and wanted to post

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it for everybody. Congratu your fucking lations whatever they did

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for you. Once that announcement came, I was just really

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bummed because my phone started blowing up. People were sending

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me messages. I appreciate it, I get it, but I'm

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one of these people. I said this privately to somebody

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over the course of the weekend while we were camping out,

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And I don't know if this bugs you or not.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know if I'm just a dick or what.

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Speaker 4: But when something like that happens, do you ever get

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the feeling that people are trying to make it all

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about them. As soon as that happened, it was Oh,

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I just talked to him. Here's a picture we took together.

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The narrative is not about Lauren and his kids and

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him and his life and the fact that he's gone.

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It just becomes about everybody else.

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Speaker 2: I get it.

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Speaker 4: The person I was having this conversation with said I

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did that. I posted the last picture that I took

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with him at the conference down in Okala, and I

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was in the photograph because I was right there with

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him in Okaala. I was like, that's cool, you know him,

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it was an event that you were a part of.

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I get that, and I'm not saying that people can

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or shouldn't do that, because everybody grieves in different ways

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and everybody handles those kind of things in different ways.

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But at times, to me, it feels very disingenuous, and

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it's just human nature, I think, to make everything about them.

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So I have purposely, I really haven't felt like, frankly,

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doing any kind of post on social media about Jeff

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and his passing. I knew at some point in time

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I was going to do something like this on this

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show with you, or I was going to talk about

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it over on sasquatch Otasy. I haven't remastered the episode

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that I did with Jeff Gosh back in twenty twenty

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one he was on the show, so I'll probably do

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that and maybe incorporate something on the show. That's how

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I handle it. I go into the creative process and

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I try to make something Better that he was a

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part of as a tribute. But I don't know did

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you get the same feeling. I know you knew Jeff,

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and I know you know a ton of people in Bigfoot.

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Was it the same thing for you when the announcement

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was made. Was it just all about reaching out and

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having these conversations, what's going to happen next, Who's going

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to pick up the mantle?

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Speaker 2: That kind of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember I reached out to you by text

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because I did see one of those early posts someone

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like splash report sort of thing. I don't believe anything

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I see on social media until I have fourteen verifications.

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At this point, I've been fortunate. I've known Jeff for

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over twenty years as a professional colleague in biological anthropology.

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He was several years ahead of me in grad school

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at Stonybrook. I was at Yale getting my PhD. So

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by the time I was in he was I think

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in his post doc maybe first year faculty member. But

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I'd see him at conferences often chat with him. I

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would never say we're friends. I would never say we're close.

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And we're professional colleagues for a long time, and I

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know him and really respected his skills, and you mentioned

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his memory. Part of that is what made him such

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a great anatomist, because he could really remember details of anatomy,

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having taught anatomy and bake an anatomy courses. And I

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am not an anatomist. I was very aware of that

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in grad school. That kind of attention to detail in

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memory recall is I think one of the keys to

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someone who's really skilled in that area. I did see

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a lot and had a lot of people. Oh man,

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I remember the first time I ever met Jeff. For me,

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if you were recalling a memory, if you're talking about

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the time that you went up to Jeff's table and

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he spent twenty minutes talking to you about some little

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minute element that you found really fascinating, and Jeff really

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engaged with you, because that's the kind of guy he was.

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He was genuinely curious about everything. He was really generous

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with his time, his knowledge, and his energy. So if

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that's the case, that I think is part of the

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normal grieving process is trying to make it real for yourself.

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None of us were there when it happened. I think

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it's part of the natural grieving process to try and

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make it real. My partner. Her daughter just lost a

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very close friend in a car accident this last week.

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One of the things that I noticed was that she

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and a bunch of her friends came together and they

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kept finding situations to try and make it real because

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they hadn't seen this guy in about a year or so,

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so the idea of this person just being done. And

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I think for the Sasquatch community, I think Jeff was

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such a huge figure in it at this point, and

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he was that kind of beacon of science for a

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lot of people. So I think for that they're trying

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to make it real. Where I have the problem is

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when they and I think, this is what you're talking about,

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where Okay, you posted a picture, this was an amazing

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moment I got to meet doctor Jeff Meldrum. Then you

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go on about how you're feeling. You're making it about

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you instead of just saying, I'm really glad he added

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what he did to our community, and I hope the

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best for his family, because that's really all we should

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be saying at this moment. In a nutshell, it's great.

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I listened to Clifton Bobo talking a little bit good.

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Berrickman and I exchanged some texts about it. I listened

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to them talking about their stories with Jeff and Matt

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pro jumping in and how he impacted them. I really

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appreciated they did exactly what we're talking about. They kept

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bringing it back to Jeff's impact on sasquatch studies, what

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he brought to the field, the importance of his book,

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the gravitas that he brought, and the validity that he

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brought to me. That's Jeff. The lasting legacy, but also

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the kind of proper lane that we should be in

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is not oh, I did this and I'm doing this.

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But I do think it's in some ways a fine

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line to walk, because I think it's just people their

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brains trying to make it make sense, and then it's

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natural for like you said, natural for folks to to

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be making it about themselves in that moment. Yeah, I'm

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torn about it, man, because I think that's almost a

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coping mechanism that helps people work through the fact that

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we're all going to hit that point at at some point,

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we're all going to leave this life, at some point

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we're all mortal. I think that's one of the biggest

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challenges for people to grapple with sometimes I agree.

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Speaker 2: Look, I want to be clear here.

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Speaker 4: I'm not trying to be a dick about people grieving

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a loss of somebody like Jeff. That's not mine tent here.

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It was more of it struck me as I guess

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there's a better example. When you're at a party and

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you're excited about a new car that you just got

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and you want to show everybody pictures, or maybe it's

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a new child or and I see this happen a

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lot on social media. Somebody will do a post about

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something they're very proud of, and then the entire thread

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will be, oh, yeah, I had a sixty nine Chevy

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when I was a kid, and here's the pictures of that,

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And then it's the same thing. Right, I'm completely hijacking

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the shit you were talking about.

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Speaker 2: That really doesn't matter. It opened the door for me

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to tell you everything I want.

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Speaker 3: To tell you.

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Speaker 4: It's almost like having those conversations in person with people

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when you know they're not listening to shit you're saying.

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They're just waiting on you to stop talking so they

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can respond to whatever they want to say. That's the

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social media version of what I'm talking about. I don't know,

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it just hit me in the wrong way. I was

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in a really foul mood over it because it really

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bummed me out.

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Speaker 3: That's the other element is that for some folks who

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knew Jeff and who interacted with them regularly, it's a

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lot more personal than it is for fanboyfangirl online who

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then want to talk about the experience they had with

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thatsquatch in nineteen eighty four. I do a lot of

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coaching and and consulting with folks. That's my main gig.

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It's a very fine line that you have to walk

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of how do you make things relatable where you're reaching

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out and saying, let's use your example the brand new car.

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Oh yeah, man, I remember my first brand new car,

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the feel, the smell that they put it into the car,

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but just feels different. That's great. But then when you

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go and I'll tell you what I took it, and

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you take the next half hour talking about the first

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road trip you took it in your brand new car,

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and the first time you took your wife on a

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date in your brand new car, your partner on a

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date in the brand new car, or whatever the case is.

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That's when you're hijacking. I think it's something that you're

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absolutely right. It's so prevalent with social media. People get

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going on a post and they're replying to something, man,

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they just go crazy. The difference is you're talking about

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somebody passing here. I know that's where you're getting at

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with your example of the brand new car. Is there's

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a difference between hijacking someone's conversation about a brand new car,

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which it's still rude, hijacking the passing of someone. I

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don't think you're being a dick about it at all.

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I think that's where you're pointing out. Let's take our

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own ego out of the situation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this happened when Jeff had his incident a couple

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of years ago on the Alaskan Bigfoot cruise and he

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was life flighted off. He almost died. He had a

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very serious medical event, had to be life flighted off

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of this Alaskan cruise. And it was happening in my

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Facebook group big Footing Counters and Field Research on Facebook.

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A few days after the factor, maybe a week after

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the fact, I was in contact with people who had

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been to the hospital to see Lauren. Drove out there,

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got an update. It wasn't good. Jeff was in intensive

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care on live support, and people were posting in the

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group glad to know doctor Jeff's home, resting comfortably, recover

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soon best wishes. I, of course, wasn't going to say

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anything publicly about what I knew private lee, So I

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just got in there and said, hey, guys, I don't

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know how else to say this, but just be mindful

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of what you're posting. If you have not gotten direct

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information from someone in his family, are very close circle,

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don't put that shit out. Because I was frankly afraid

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that he was going to pass away. Then then you've

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got all these people saying, oh, I just read that

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Johnny over here said he was fine home resting.

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Speaker 2: Jesus, what happened.

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Speaker 4: Not that it really fucking matters, but that could have happened,

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and people are just posting and piling on, Oh he's

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resting comfortably at home. No, he's in intensive care, fighting

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for his life. Just things like that. Let it be

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a cautionary tale for everybody. This is my coaching session

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to all of you people. If you ever get in

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the situation like that on Facebook, just don't post it.

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Just don't please. If you don't know, don't say it.

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But tell you what's not fine line here. There is

301
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a fine line with that, and I totally agree with you.

302
00:14:56,399 --> 00:14:59,480
Here's what's not a fine line. Let me read what

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this ap A hat posted on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: We've got to pay some bills, but don't go anywhere.

305
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That Bigfoot podcast will be right back after.

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Speaker 4: This in the Coalition for Critical Thinking group about a

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day and a half ago. I guess maybe two days ago.

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I don't remember when this was sent to me, but

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I'm gonna read it verbatim. I'm gonna leave his name out.

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Hogan didn't want to use his name. I respect that

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because I would be blasting this fucker.

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Speaker 3: Let me just say the reason why is I don't

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think he deserves any kind of recognition on air. I

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love that you're reading the message, but I don't think

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he deserves by name anything.

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Speaker 2: So he who does not deserve to be named.

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Speaker 4: This is a Facebook post on his Facebook page a

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couple of days ago.

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Speaker 2: Quote.

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Speaker 4: A lot of tributes going out anytime someone passes. It's

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a sad thing for those who love them, a shock

322
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to blind followers, and with all due respect, rip, but

323
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personally I rejoice anytime the damn is cracked and truth

324
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seeps free, even more so when it fails completely and

325
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truth has the chance to flood and clear the valleys

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full of long standing sediment of miss info behind us.

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Now is the world of the ancient ape. It's time

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for the relic human to enter the room and the

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seeds of the truth to mature and to trees of understanding.

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Only when the old lives pass away can the new

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light of truth blossom.

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Speaker 3: End quotes.

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Speaker 4: I'm not gonna name this person, but maybe by deduction

334
00:16:36,399 --> 00:16:38,080
people can figure it out. Let me give you some

335
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,279
Easter eggs here. He was one of the speakers with

336
00:16:41,399 --> 00:16:44,720
me at the Ozark Mountain Bigfoot Conference in Missouri last year,

337
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and I'll be honest with you, I set through his

338
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presentation and thought that ninety nine point nine eight percent

339
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of it was complete and utter horseshit. Here's the problem

340
00:16:54,919 --> 00:16:57,440
that I had with this particular person who is clearly

341
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,320
talking about the passing of doctor Jeff Meldrum and the

342
00:17:01,399 --> 00:17:04,400
lies that he spread. Because he did mention Jeff in

343
00:17:04,519 --> 00:17:07,599
his presentation last year at the Ozark Mountain Bigfoot Conference

344
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about how he's spreading this ape or nonsense. He clearly

345
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,559
knows based on whatever the fuck. He thinks he's done

346
00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:20,079
in his research that Bigfoot, the forest people aren't apes.

347
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There's something much greater. So I said, through all this

348
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horseshit that he was spewing last year, that people were

349
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eating up slopping it up with a biscuit like people

350
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tend to do.

351
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Speaker 2: He was making definitive statements about his research and knowing

352
00:17:32,839 --> 00:17:38,039
that they were encountering a female Sasquatch versus a male Sasquatch.

353
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I don't know.

354
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,240
Speaker 4: He never talked about checking the genda tale you or

355
00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:43,599
seeing it, so I don't know how this was. Maybe

356
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,400
it was based on the fuzzy feeling he got whether

357
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,160
this thing had a vagina or a penis, But it

358
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,079
was just things that just didn't sit right with me.

359
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Speaker 2: But I let it go.

360
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Speaker 4: He didn't go on the camp out. He left before

361
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the camp out, so I didn't have to spend another

362
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,640
four days listen to his bullshit. I'm just gonna say this.

363
00:17:59,319 --> 00:18:02,480
Everybody is entitled to their opinions about Jeff, about me,

364
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,559
about Bigfoot, about anything. We live in the free country.

365
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,559
All I'm going to say is this, some things are

366
00:18:08,599 --> 00:18:12,599
better left unsaid, just my opinion. If you think that

367
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,240
about Jeff and what he believed to be the truth

368
00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:19,000
about Sasquatch. I would argue that at least what Jeff

369
00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:23,559
had to say about Bigfoot was based on science, upon

370
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:29,880
his knowledge, training, and experience in anthropology, foot morphology, the

371
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:35,200
evidence that has attributed to Sasquatch that he has examined

372
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,599
over the years. Absolutely, this cat that made that post,

373
00:18:39,319 --> 00:18:41,319
I think he just makes up shit whole cloth. I

374
00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,400
don't think there's any thread of truth in anything he says.

375
00:18:45,279 --> 00:18:48,759
I would be surprised if he's had any interactions with Bigfoot. Frankly,

376
00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:50,960
I think it's all either in his head or he

377
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:51,400
makes it.

378
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,039
Speaker 2: Up whole cloth.

379
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,680
Speaker 4: So sometimes it's just better to leave those things unsaid,

380
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,799
in my opinion, and I took that very personally is

381
00:19:00,839 --> 00:19:02,680
the right way. But I didn't know Jeff, and I'd

382
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,640
worked with Jeff and I respected him very much. I

383
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,519
think it was just a little too soon to post

384
00:19:08,519 --> 00:19:11,279
shit like that, basically saying he's glad the dudes did

385
00:19:11,319 --> 00:19:14,119
because all the lies that he's been spewing about Bigfoot

386
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,839
die with him, is what I read into that. How

387
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,680
did you feel when you saw that post?

388
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,160
Speaker 3: I was angry, man, I was pissed. Because, like I said,

389
00:19:22,279 --> 00:19:26,119
I've known Jeff for a long period of time. First

390
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,839
and foremost, you said it right. Jeff was, in addition

391
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,799
to all the wonderful aspects of him as in human,

392
00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:36,119
which he genuinely was a really good person, he was

393
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:42,640
a consummate professional. He strove for objectivity, He strove for replication,

394
00:19:43,599 --> 00:19:48,119
two of the cornerstones of science. He knew that none

395
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,319
of us can be completely objective, but he figured out

396
00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:55,079
ways to what we call control for variables, so he

397
00:19:55,119 --> 00:20:00,720
could present things objectively, and so others could repeat the

398
00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:03,359
steps that he took and see if they come up

399
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:08,599
with the same results. That takes real intestinal fortitude, That

400
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,880
takes real courage, especially the way he went out on

401
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,599
the limb with sasquatch stuff, with mainstream academia, to say,

402
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,440
here's the data that I've collected, here are the results

403
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,640
I have. Go ahead, run your own tests the if

404
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,359
you come up with the same thing. So to disparage

405
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,559
him as a liar, I know this individual didn't name him,

406
00:20:31,599 --> 00:20:34,480
but like you said, it's easy to infer what you're

407
00:20:34,519 --> 00:20:37,960
talking about. Yeah, it made me angry, and right away

408
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:44,680
I completely discounted this individual and anything that I read

409
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,640
from this individual moving forward is now just garbage. I

410
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,079
don't have space in my brain to consider you in

411
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,039
any kind of realistic, practical way. I want to go back,

412
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,039
just really quickly. You said something that I think is

413
00:20:59,519 --> 00:21:03,119
spot on and goes to the earlier making it your

414
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:08,279
own about you posts that people were doing those times.

415
00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:11,799
It's better just not to say the things that may

416
00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:15,599
be going through your head publicly. We got to take

417
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,960
a picture of the dinner that we're eating, We got

418
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,119
to take a picture of the walk that we're taking.

419
00:21:21,559 --> 00:21:24,400
Anyone who wants to do that, fine, But it also

420
00:21:24,519 --> 00:21:27,359
doesn't mean that you have to post in every situation

421
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:33,880
because everyone has their opinion. Not all opinions are equal.

422
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,960
Not all opinions are things that are going to add

423
00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:43,079
in a positive way to certain situations or certain conversations.

424
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,839
I love that you said sometimes things just are better

425
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,039
left and said I wish more people would do that,

426
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,839
just in general when they go to post something, Hey,

427
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,640
is this something or is this just I'm bored and

428
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,799
I'm in a habit now of I'm posting about my morning.

429
00:22:01,079 --> 00:22:03,200
You just took a sip your coffee. I have friends

430
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,400
who I have stopped following them because they post their

431
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,440
morning coffee and say good morning everyone, and I'm like,

432
00:22:11,799 --> 00:22:14,440
I don't need to see your fucking mug. I don't

433
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,799
need to see that you're the greatest aunt in the

434
00:22:16,799 --> 00:22:20,880
world or whatever. Good morning to you, too awesome. But

435
00:22:21,319 --> 00:22:23,960
do we really need to take up face in the

436
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,680
cyber world and use energy to do that?

437
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 4: Absolutely, one hundred percent, you need to see my coffee.

438
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,119
I have a guy who I've met in person and

439
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,440
talked to him a couple of times in the past.

440
00:22:34,319 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 2: Who does this about bigfoot stuff.

441
00:22:36,279 --> 00:22:40,319
Speaker 4: He goes into these groups that shall remain unnamed where

442
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,119
people are posting pictures of sticks, leaves and trees. It

443
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,920
clearly rubs him the wrong way, and he can't say

444
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,920
it in the group because they kick you out, So

445
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,079
he does screenshots and post it on his personal Facebook

446
00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:55,160
page like twenty seven times a day, and it's just

447
00:22:55,319 --> 00:22:57,640
ranning what the fuck is wrong with this person?

448
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 2: And I'm saying, what is wrong with you?

449
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 3: You?

450
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,519
Speaker 4: I saw that one time in that group, and of

451
00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:05,440
course I've talked about it because I try to steer

452
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,839
people from it. I don't think that's what he's trying

453
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,599
to do. He's just ranting about these crazy people that

454
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,640
are posting sticks, leaves and trees and calling it bigfoot.

455
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,880
Can't you see the baby that it's holding and all

456
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,880
this shit the dog man's playing the flute in the

457
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,160
background or whatever's happening. I'm like, dude, I appreciate it,

458
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:23,839
but I don't need to see that in my feed

459
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,920
forty seven times a week. I know what's going on.

460
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,079
Nothing has changed. It's the same over and over again.

461
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,960
If you're listening and you can hear our voices when

462
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,119
you start to post on Facebook or Instagram, breathe and

463
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,920
take thirty seconds and ask yourself should I do this?

464
00:23:43,319 --> 00:23:45,519
Most of the time the answer is going to be no.

465
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,559
You're welcome that you're coaching. It's free. You got it

466
00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:53,039
free from a PhD doctor, Hogan Chirou and me. I

467
00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:55,559
don't even play a doctor on television, but there you go.

468
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,039
Speaker 3: The other part that I want to say is Jeff

469
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,799
what I say, the consummate professional. He never preached his

470
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:09,039
position to anyone. He presented what the conclusions he has

471
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,039
come to. The last time I saw Jeff in person

472
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,880
was actually at the Glide Sasquatch Festival. We had a

473
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,720
conversation because of his ideas around niche separation and things

474
00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:22,039
like that. He was like, Hey, Hogan, I know the

475
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,680
behavioral ecology. I'm not going to try and tell you

476
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:28,359
that world and I know Jeff as a world class

477
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,799
anatomist and functional morphologist. I'm not gonna try and tell

478
00:24:31,839 --> 00:24:35,680
him how the footworks. That would be an exercise and futility.

479
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,799
Not only did he not preach, but he was so

480
00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:45,000
relatable and so jovial in his approach to people that

481
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,039
even if someone came up with a cuckoo idea of

482
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,000
I think sasquatch are actually mermaids who have adapted the

483
00:24:53,079 --> 00:24:59,160
lad or whatever, Jeff would entertain them in conversation. The

484
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,480
beauty of Jeff was he was relatable that way, he

485
00:25:03,599 --> 00:25:08,200
was approachable, He was really patient. He would then bring

486
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,519
it back to science. He would bring it back to Okay,

487
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,440
but are those things that we can actually record? Are

488
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,839
those things that we can actually observe? Can we document

489
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,559
it in some way? Can someone else go out and

490
00:25:22,759 --> 00:25:28,440
test it? While not telling the mermaid theory person that

491
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,200
they're a fucking loon, which may have been going through

492
00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:35,000
Jeff's mind. I'm not going to speak for well. He

493
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,759
was really impressive in that way, I think the scientific

494
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:45,839
validity that he brought because he was publishing papers in

495
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:52,279
highly respected journals about the functional morphology of New world

496
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:58,160
monkey feet, he was posting things on fossil primates years

497
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,440
before he published his book. He was a well established

498
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,920
anatomist and functional morphologist who could have just continued down

499
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,640
that road not gone into this. And the service he

500
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,960
did by bringing a scientific approach, which you know that

501
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,000
I really appreciate, and that's what I'm trying to do

502
00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:23,920
with behavioral ecology and how to study behavior with sasquatch.

503
00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:29,640
But that in itself the community owes him a huge debt.

504
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:36,160
Combine that with his approachability, his acceptance of everyone who's

505
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:42,039
interested in this subject, opening up his vault of knowledge

506
00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:46,240
to people just because they said they saw something as

507
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,880
they were driving down the highway that they couldn't explain,

508
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,599
and now he's gonna have a fifteen minute conversation with

509
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:57,440
them to talk about things that there just multiplies his impact.

510
00:26:58,079 --> 00:27:01,960
I personally think that anyone who wants to post anything

511
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,200
about Jeff should really just be saying thank you and

512
00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:07,559
honoring his legacy.

513
00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 4: That way, I definitely agree, I couldn't have said it

514
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,759
any better. I think what it boils down to for

515
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,720
me is very similar. We only get one life. Like

516
00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:17,880
you said, what you do with the dash in between

517
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,799
your birthdate and your expiration date means the most to everybody,

518
00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:25,160
because that's what it's truly all about. And if you

519
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,039
think about how many years Jeff was into this and

520
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,559
how many of those fifteen minute conversations he had with

521
00:27:31,839 --> 00:27:36,839
literally I would estimate tens of thousands of people. You

522
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,359
add that up over the course of his sixty seven years,

523
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,960
that's a huge chunk of time that was dedicated to

524
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,680
the subject that he cared so much about. If nothing else,

525
00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:50,640
like you said, that warrants a thank you, because not

526
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,039
everybody's like that. Not everybody you meet in Bigfoot has

527
00:27:54,079 --> 00:27:56,400
the time to sit and talk to anybody, or even

528
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,960
wants to sit and talk to people about their experiences

529
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,920
or do the gracious things that Jeff did with his

530
00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:05,160
time for people, So that in and of itself, if

531
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,359
he contributed nothing else to this subject, just all the

532
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,279
people that will cherish those ten or fifteen minutes that

533
00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:14,480
they got that he gave them freely, and it was

534
00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:17,200
his most valuable resource when you think about it, was

535
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,359
his time and he gave it freely and willingly to

536
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,960
people throughout this country and literally around the world. So

537
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:26,920
I say thank you, Jeff. Rest in peace, my friend.

538
00:28:27,079 --> 00:28:29,039
Let's shift gears a little bit before we get out

539
00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:30,279
of here and talk about something.

540
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's worse, Probably worse.

541
00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 4: So everybody knows about the contentious relationship that I have

542
00:28:38,119 --> 00:28:41,400
with Mike Patterson of Sasquatch Ontario. We've talked at nauseum

543
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,960
about the NEF photographs. This tends to bring people out

544
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,559
of the woodwork. I have not heard anything from Mike directly,

545
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,279
but I did hear from someone who is, let's say,

546
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,759
a fan of Mike's who has been out in the

547
00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:58,119
field with him and had experiences reached out to me

548
00:28:58,319 --> 00:29:00,960
a couple of weeks ago and said, hey, I see

549
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,440
you're in full on hoax mode. You don't believe Mike.

550
00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:06,559
I've had experiences with over one hundred and ten sasquatch

551
00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:09,240
in my life. I'd like to come on and share

552
00:29:09,279 --> 00:29:12,519
my experiences and talk about those, and some of those

553
00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:17,519
experiences were with Mike in his research area. I was like, absolutely,

554
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,559
come on the show, so as we record this. I

555
00:29:20,599 --> 00:29:23,920
had this interview last night. I think he picked the

556
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,599
alias David. It's not his real name. I didn't see

557
00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:28,720
his face. He was blacked out on the video. He

558
00:29:28,759 --> 00:29:32,160
wanted to remain completely anonymous, but we had about an

559
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,119
hour or so conversation, and during that conversation, he tells

560
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,400
me that when he got into the subject, he got

561
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,480
into Mike Patterson stuff, he got into his YouTube channel.

562
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,039
He had some problems with the photos of nef because

563
00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:49,680
when he showed him to people I his friend group,

564
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,039
they all laughed and said, dude, that's clearly a mask.

565
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,680
And he even admitted to me on the show last

566
00:29:54,759 --> 00:29:55,559
night that it could be.

567
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,039
Speaker 1: We've got to pay some bills, but don't go anywhere.

568
00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:03,079
That big Foot podcast will be right back after this.

569
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,359
Speaker 4: He said, people like Todd standing and people like Mike,

570
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,880
he thinks they have real experiences, but sometimes there's a

571
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,519
lull in activity, and he's got to get views and

572
00:30:13,559 --> 00:30:17,119
clicks on his YouTube channel, So maybe it's possible that

573
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,559
he hoaxed those photographs he did. He was talking about

574
00:30:20,599 --> 00:30:24,799
playing some of the alleged vocalizations. That's Dwayne doing the

575
00:30:24,839 --> 00:30:27,759
voice of Nefatia right. He said he's played those a

576
00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:30,200
couple of times and he's had sticks breaking, and he's

577
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,519
had all this activity.

578
00:30:32,039 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: Those vocals really bring.

579
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 4: The Sasquatches out, right, And I said, have you ever

580
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,880
heard of The Truth Prevails YouTube channel?

581
00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 3: Yeah?

582
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,119
Speaker 4: Okay, The Truth Prevails has all of the documentation. They've

583
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:49,400
got screenshots of text messages, emails, They've got videos of

584
00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:53,160
Dwayne in his own words, speaking in the voice of

585
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,839
Nefatilla saying that it was all bullshit. He hoaxed it,

586
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,880
he made it up. He is the voice of nef

587
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,599
But this guy just wasn't hearing it. Man, he just

588
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,680
didn't believe it. He was like, there's no way that

589
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,839
is him. There's no way he could fool Mike and me,

590
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,519
and there's no way he could fool Sasquatch. Because I

591
00:31:09,559 --> 00:31:12,880
play these vocalizations and I get all this activity, and

592
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,960
I'm thinking, dude, you could go out into the wild

593
00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:20,799
and play a really loud cougar call, right, and you're

594
00:31:20,799 --> 00:31:23,960
probably gonna elicit some kind of a response from something

595
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,400
in nature back. So I think it's possible that if

596
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,440
you played a human vocalizing in that weird way, that

597
00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:33,559
you might get some kind of response from the local wildlife.

598
00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:35,359
Speaker 2: Oh shit, what the fuck is that? I'm out of here.

599
00:31:36,119 --> 00:31:38,920
But it's not necessarily bigfoot. It was a hoax.

600
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 4: It was admitted, and I said when Dwayne and Mike

601
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,119
got together on camera for the first time a couple

602
00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:48,160
of videos back, Dwayne showed his face for the very

603
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,240
first time and they talked about that there's people going

604
00:31:50,319 --> 00:31:53,240
to be asking the question. Hey, Dwayne said that was

605
00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:55,880
all hoaxed. He was the voice of nef But we're

606
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,160
here to tell you that's not true. We only said

607
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,000
that because people were threatening us. They were pushing into

608
00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:05,119
our area, they were threatening our families, so we just

609
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,759
wanted all that to go away, so we just said

610
00:32:06,759 --> 00:32:08,680
it was a hoax so people would leave us alone.

611
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,440
But just kidding, that's not true. It's true that it's

612
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,519
not a hoax, but this guy refused to see it

613
00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:17,839
outside of the photos. He was very open with the

614
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,559
fact that, yeah, the photos may be faked, but that

615
00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:22,839
doesn't mean that everything else is happening it's fake.

616
00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:24,559
Speaker 2: It's very much the.

617
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,599
Speaker 4: Same way with Todd. I believe he's had experiences in Radium.

618
00:32:28,599 --> 00:32:32,000
I believe he's probably seen sasquatch. I've had experiences there

619
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,279
that I believe were Sasquatch related. It doesn't change the

620
00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:37,759
fact that he faked those videos, because this guy was

621
00:32:37,799 --> 00:32:40,599
immediately like, oh yeahs I'd faked those videos, and he said,

622
00:32:40,599 --> 00:32:43,279
I don't like anybody faking anything or lying about anything

623
00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:46,920
with Bigfoot. I think it goes against everything that Sasquatch

624
00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:49,680
the forest people, as he prefers to call them their beliefs.

625
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,079
We just had this roundabout conversation and he just never

626
00:32:53,119 --> 00:32:53,880
would get it.

627
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: It's solidified to me.

628
00:32:55,079 --> 00:32:58,079
Speaker 4: I've always wanted to have a magnifying glass or even

629
00:32:58,119 --> 00:33:00,559
a crystal ball to look into some of the people

630
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:04,880
who buy into the Mike Patterson Sasquatch Ontario hoax and

631
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,599
what characteristics, what mental state you have to be in

632
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,680
to be indoctrinated into that. So it was a little

633
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,559
bit of a peek behind the curtains. I can't wait

634
00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:16,279
to edit and get that out for you guys over

635
00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:18,519
on Sasquatch Otyssey. It'll probably be out in the next

636
00:33:18,559 --> 00:33:20,039
couple of weeks, so make sure you check out that

637
00:33:20,359 --> 00:33:25,640
episode with David from Ontario talking about Mike Patterson and

638
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,480
some of his other experiences with Bigfoot.

639
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is.

640
00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 4: You're a smart guy, You've got a PhD. You coach people,

641
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,400
you help people. What do you think it is that

642
00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:41,000
makes people so susceptible to believing Mike Patterson and anybody

643
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,079
who's hoaxing and LARPing the way that he is. How

644
00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:47,759
do you fall victim to that? Is it like these

645
00:33:47,799 --> 00:33:50,759
people that get into these cults? Is it the same mentality?

646
00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:54,599
Because Todd and Mike are very much like cult leaders

647
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:55,799
in my opinion.

648
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't seen a lot of Mike, but what

649
00:33:59,839 --> 00:34:03,960
I've seen of Todd. You equating the two in their

650
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,720
behavior very much like cult leaders. And I'm not saying

651
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,920
that they are intentionally trying to indoctrinate anyone into a cult.

652
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,719
I think this guy that you talk to hit the

653
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,840
nail on the head of content create. You're not a

654
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,239
fucking researcher. I'm sorry. You're a content creator. You live

655
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,800
in a world where you're creating content every single week.

656
00:34:27,519 --> 00:34:30,599
You know how that goes. But there's a little word

657
00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:34,400
that I want to throw called credibility and the damage

658
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:41,119
you do to your credibility when you create content just

659
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:46,760
to get clicks and traffic on your site, on your podcast,

660
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,239
whatever the case, it's YouTube channel, whatever service you're using, whatever, outlet.

661
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,960
You're using the damage and it does to the credibility.

662
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,639
I don't want to dive back into the jet stuff.

663
00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:01,920
But again, that's that's what Jeff was really striving for,

664
00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:06,719
is credibility in this. You hear out of one side

665
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,199
of their mouth, you hear that this is a face

666
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,239
of nef on the other side of the mouth. They

667
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,599
don't understand why the general population doesn't believe them that

668
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,679
sasquatches out there, that they've had these experiences. When you

669
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,559
post a Halloween mask is the face of something and

670
00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:25,880
you stick to it, I'm not going to believe anything

671
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,480
you say after that. When you post a video of

672
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:36,079
an obvious fake arm reaching and grabbing an apple and

673
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:41,079
you claim that's sasquatch taking your gip and you've given

674
00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:43,280
it a name, and you claim that you know their

675
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,559
ages and on, which I find phenomenal because after thousands

676
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:50,679
of hours in the field with wild primates, I can

677
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,559
tell you general ranges of age, but I can't tell

678
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:56,679
you if somebody's a teenager or not without knowing when

679
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,840
they were born. But yeah, if you post that, I'm

680
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,320
not to believe anything you say after that. I'm gonna

681
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,800
be so skeptical and every person who's trained in science.

682
00:36:08,679 --> 00:36:13,079
That's the trigger for that is as soon as you

683
00:36:14,159 --> 00:36:19,920
throw away your credibility for the sake of I'll give

684
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,800
you a great example right now that's going on, all

685
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,880
this stuff about the Homo meletti in South Africa, this

686
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,559
hominin that may have intentionally buried their dead in a

687
00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:32,440
cave that's hard to get to, and things like that.

688
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,920
Part of the reason why there's so much pushback on

689
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,519
that is, and I won't get into the methodology, but

690
00:36:38,599 --> 00:36:43,440
part of the reason is that the primary investigator on

691
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,199
that research has in the past made really extraordinary claims

692
00:36:48,199 --> 00:36:51,920
about things that then the data have shown didn't back

693
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,719
it up. When they first came out with this, rather

694
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,000
than going the regular route and publishing a journal article,

695
00:36:58,639 --> 00:37:01,840
they held a press conference. They put it out there

696
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,440
to the world. There's I think that maybe a Netflix

697
00:37:04,519 --> 00:37:07,679
there's some sort of dreaming movie about it that they

698
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,039
had done. When you do that, it damages the credibility.

699
00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:14,239
And I'm not going to weigh in right now on

700
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,599
whether or not I think they intentionally bury their dead.

701
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,480
I just think that you now have set up roadblocks

702
00:37:21,519 --> 00:37:25,760
for people to trust what you said so there's that part,

703
00:37:26,079 --> 00:37:29,360
the cult component. Absolutely, man, I think you're right on.

704
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,719
I think that part of what we deal with in

705
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,719
the Sasquatch world is that for too many people, because

706
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,039
they don't have something to hold on to, they may

707
00:37:42,039 --> 00:37:45,199
have had an experience, they haven't had anything since, they

708
00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:47,480
may have never had an experience, they may just be

709
00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:50,079
making it up in their mind, whatever the case is,

710
00:37:50,119 --> 00:37:54,039
it becomes a belief system instead of again, in a

711
00:37:54,119 --> 00:37:59,360
scientific endeavor, you're striving for objectivity. You not only have

712
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,079
the tangible factor of there is a species there, but

713
00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:09,159
it's that elite system that then messes with our perception

714
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,760
of our entire world. Oh, if there's a crack in

715
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,039
the wall here, the whole house of cards can come

716
00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:19,280
tumbling down if you pull one of those cards out,

717
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,440
the whole thing. And it's not that these people are convinced,

718
00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:25,760
oh I'm wrong here and we're just making it up.

719
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,760
It's a natural thing that happens in our brains that

720
00:38:29,119 --> 00:38:30,960
it's almost and I think we may have talked about

721
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,039
this briefly before, it's almost like a defense mechanism that

722
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:38,000
happens in our brains that protects our view of reality.

723
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:43,400
Our brains basically will double down on our narrative. However,

724
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,159
our reality is constructed. Again, that's contrary to what science

725
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:53,079
is trying to achieve. There's a reason why science didn't

726
00:38:53,159 --> 00:38:59,400
recognize chimpanzees until the mid to late eighteen hundreds. There's

727
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,719
a reason for that, and it wasn't just gatekeepers who

728
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,239
didn't want to believe it. It was no, we need

729
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:10,400
to have verifiable evidence. From my perspective, that's what everyone

730
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,440
in the sasquatch world should be striving for. You're not

731
00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:17,679
trying to meet the standards of people that maybe don't

732
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:22,239
respect or anything like that. Verifiable evidence. This kind of

733
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,559
hoaxing doesn't move the needle that way. It doesn't improve

734
00:39:26,599 --> 00:39:27,159
the science.

735
00:39:27,679 --> 00:39:28,159
Speaker 2: I agree.

736
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 4: We talked for about ten minutes or so after the interviews,

737
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,800
and he said, look, the main reason he said, I

738
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,880
agreed to come on your show was I want you

739
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,000
to let go of this drive to bring Mike and

740
00:39:41,079 --> 00:39:42,320
all these people down, and I.

741
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:43,679
Speaker 2: Want you to do your own research.

742
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 4: I want you to go out and have your own experiences,

743
00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:48,840
come at it from peace and love, and they'll be

744
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,119
so generous to you if you do that. And I

745
00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:54,280
want you to have an experience where you see them

746
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,920
and you have all these amazing experiences that they give you.

747
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:59,840
I didn't break his heart and tell them that I'd

748
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,440
had three sightings last summer, and I don't think it

749
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,159
had anything to do with any of the shit that

750
00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:08,760
might excuse. But I appreciated at least his message, which

751
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,920
was just be kind to people, be as loving as

752
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,760
you can, and spread light as much. I think that's great,

753
00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:17,960
But I think there is a missing piece, and I

754
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,440
think it is important for shows like this one and

755
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,320
people like us to have these conversations about some of

756
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,239
these people who are fooling people, because it is dangerous,

757
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,880
whether you believe it or not, when someone is lying

758
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:31,880
to you and they lie to you over and over

759
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,960
and you believe these lies. To me, that is a

760
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,119
form of abuse almost right. They're abusing you in ways

761
00:40:39,159 --> 00:40:42,679
that most people don't even realize. They're certainly taking advantage

762
00:40:42,679 --> 00:40:46,480
of your gol ability, and they're making money off of

763
00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:47,800
what they're doing to you.

764
00:40:48,559 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 2: So those are the reasons.

765
00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:52,199
Speaker 4: And I told him I've never had anything personally against Mike.

766
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,159
Mike has tried to make this personal many times. I

767
00:40:55,199 --> 00:40:57,559
really don't care about Mike personally. I don't have anything

768
00:40:57,599 --> 00:41:00,800
against the man personally, I'm just upset with the lies

769
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,119
that he tells and the way that he fools people

770
00:41:03,159 --> 00:41:06,519
into believing what he says about bigfoot. I think it's

771
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,360
all complete horseshit, and it's damaging people. It is making

772
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,960
people look at real evidence and real scenarios and even

773
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,920
real scientific approaches to this, and they scoff at it

774
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,280
and call us apers. It just creates even more of

775
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,119
a division from the people who are trying to approach

776
00:41:25,159 --> 00:41:30,280
this scientifically, to get that verifiable and repeatable evidence. They

777
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,960
throw that out because you don't need that. All you

778
00:41:33,039 --> 00:41:34,880
got to do is listen to Mike and he'll enlighten

779
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,519
you about everything about the forest people because they talk

780
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:40,760
to him and leave him notes. That's the problem with this,

781
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,719
and that's why we have these kind of conversations. It's

782
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,920
never a personal thing. It's never personal with Mike or

783
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,760
Todd or any of these people. It's just simply a

784
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,079
subject that I care deeply about that I would like

785
00:41:53,159 --> 00:41:55,519
for other people in the community to be able to

786
00:41:55,559 --> 00:41:58,639
have access to real data. At the end of the day,

787
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,199
I don't think those people are going to be saved.

788
00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:04,920
He's clearly not the audience for this. I've had people

789
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,760
reach out and say thank you for doing those photos.

790
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,639
When I saw that, I completely unfollowed Mike and I

791
00:42:10,679 --> 00:42:13,519
don't listen to anything he says anymore because he lied

792
00:42:13,559 --> 00:42:15,920
about that, and if he's lying about that, he's probably

793
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,440
lying about everything else. That's really the point to this,

794
00:42:19,639 --> 00:42:23,400
So we hope that comes through with this. I'm not

795
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,920
trying to be malicious. I'm not trying to tear him down.

796
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,239
That's what he kept saying. You're trying to bring Mike down.

797
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,280
You're trying to tear him down. No, I'm not necessarily

798
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,079
doing that, but I am trying to poke holes in

799
00:42:33,119 --> 00:42:35,960
all of his bullshit so people can see through. Maybe

800
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:38,280
if I poke enough holes, maybe the sunlight will come

801
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,480
through and people will go, yeah, I'm not really sure

802
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,360
about those photos. Or maybe Neft's not taking selfies in

803
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,800
his house and leaving him notes, and maybe that voice

804
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,320
is Dwayne because he said it was. I had this

805
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,400
conversation offline with somebody about the way someone was acting

806
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,360
in the community, and they were concerned about an event

807
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,679
that's coming up, and I said, look, I had to

808
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,119
learn this the hard way many times over, but you

809
00:43:01,159 --> 00:43:03,480
know how you have something happen with somebody and you go, oh,

810
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,360
that's not his personality, that's not like him.

811
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:06,159
Speaker 3: He wouldn't do that.

812
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,119
Speaker 4: If he does it ten times, guess what he's showing

813
00:43:10,159 --> 00:43:12,679
you the person that he is. You just have to

814
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,440
decide if you're going to take that information for what

815
00:43:15,599 --> 00:43:18,639
it is and see it for what it is, or

816
00:43:18,639 --> 00:43:21,360
you're going to live in denial. And that's ultimately what

817
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,679
I think is happening in most of those cases with

818
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,280
the Todds and the Mics and the other people out

819
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,280
there that we could name that are perpetrating those kind

820
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:28,760
of hoaxes.

821
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 3: When you talked about this kind of line to folks,

822
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,599
there's a term that's now become a psychological term. It's gaslighting.

823
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:40,920
And that's what they're doing. They're gaslighting people saying what

824
00:43:41,159 --> 00:43:46,239
you think is reality is wrong. Here's what it is,

825
00:43:47,159 --> 00:43:49,800
and they're using the hoax to do it. And if

826
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,960
you do it over and over again, yeah, you're ready,

827
00:43:53,199 --> 00:43:57,119
it's considered abuse. Then you know. And now Mike and

828
00:43:57,159 --> 00:43:59,639
Todd probably both hate me now even though they don't

829
00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:02,880
know me. Great, but the reality is none of this

830
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,880
and you said it right, none of this is personal.

831
00:44:06,639 --> 00:44:11,039
This is about. And I think that's one of the

832
00:44:11,159 --> 00:44:15,440
dangers of any kind of pursuit like this. I see

833
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,360
it in biological anthropology and everly sh anthropology. I had

834
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,239
a friend in grad school who once said to me,

835
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,320
the further and further you get from concrete data that

836
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,480
other people can also collect and analyze, the further and

837
00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:35,760
further you get into egos driving whatever study you're doing.

838
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:38,599
I don't know if it was you asked me this once,

839
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,159
or who it was someone asked me once, why are

840
00:44:41,159 --> 00:44:43,559
people doing this? Because they're not getting famous off of this?

841
00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:46,639
And I would say, bullshit, they're not. In their little world.

842
00:44:46,639 --> 00:44:51,280
They're getting really famous. Everyone knows outstanding of Mike Patterson's

843
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,519
names in the Bigfoot world, and that's the world that

844
00:44:54,559 --> 00:44:57,639
matters to them. They're not trying to compete with George

845
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,559
Clooney and Brad Pint. They're trying to compete with Klick

846
00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:05,960
Berrickman and Brian king Sharp. They're in their little pond

847
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,079
and they're trying to be a big fish in their pond.

848
00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:10,079
Context really matters.

849
00:45:10,599 --> 00:45:13,639
Speaker 1: We've got to pay some bills, but don't go anywhere.

850
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,679
That Bigfoot podcast will be right back after this.

851
00:45:20,119 --> 00:45:22,039
Speaker 3: I mean there's the element of yeah, they're trying to

852
00:45:22,039 --> 00:45:24,920
become famous and they're gaslighting for it to get clicks.

853
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,440
But I think that there's also the part of when

854
00:45:29,559 --> 00:45:34,239
someone makes it personal when you challenge them on what

855
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,159
they presented, that to me is a gigantic red flag

856
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,400
that they don't have any confidence in what they presented.

857
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,840
They are full of shit because they've got to go

858
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,239
to a place that you never took it. There's no

859
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:56,400
reason to make it personal. That kind of defensive, aggressive

860
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:01,400
reaction is something that you'll see well when people know

861
00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:06,280
that what they put out is horseshit, that is very true.

862
00:46:06,599 --> 00:46:08,320
We like to keep it personal with you, guys. We

863
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,320
would love to hear from you. If you want to

864
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,960
suggest a topic for us to talk about, shoot me

865
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,719
an email Brian at Paranormal World Productions dot com, or

866
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,920
you can head over to the website Paranormalorialdproductions dot com.

867
00:46:19,039 --> 00:46:21,280
There is a leave us a voicemail button right there

868
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:23,639
in the contact section. You can talk to us for

869
00:46:23,639 --> 00:46:25,800
five minutes at a time. I've literally had people send

870
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,719
me like five or ten of those at a time.

871
00:46:28,159 --> 00:46:31,480
I've got fifty minute diatribe from people five minutes at

872
00:46:31,519 --> 00:46:31,920
a time.

873
00:46:32,519 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from you, guys, if.

874
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 4: You want to leave us a voicemail, let us know

875
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:36,960
what you think about what we've talked about on the show,

876
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,039
anything you want to hear us talk about on the show,

877
00:46:39,119 --> 00:46:40,559
or you just want to tell us how much we

878
00:46:40,639 --> 00:46:42,239
suck or how great we are.

879
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear that either way, So send us

880
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,199
an email, send us a voicemail, and maybe you might

881
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,320
even hear yourself on the show at some point. Hogan,

882
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,039
What you got coming up man? Anything special?

883
00:46:53,119 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 4: I'm about to go on vacation here next weeks doing

884
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,320
nothing to do with Bigfoot. I'm sure they'll be bigfoot

885
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,559
people there. We're actually going up to Ohio. We've got

886
00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:03,519
some things planned in West Virginia and Virginia. We're going

887
00:47:03,519 --> 00:47:06,920
to Point Pleasant and we're going to the Mothman Festival

888
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,559
for a couple of days. First time I've ever done that.

889
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:11,239
We're not going to be there vending or anything. We're

890
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,039
just going to be there hanging out, having a good time.

891
00:47:13,559 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 3: Should be fun.

892
00:47:14,639 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 4: Get my picture made with the famous or infamous Mothman

893
00:47:18,599 --> 00:47:20,679
sculpture up there. So what do you got coming up man?

894
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:22,000
Anything fun or special?

895
00:47:22,559 --> 00:47:25,639
Speaker 3: First? I'm glad you're taking a vacation. You guys deserve it.

896
00:47:26,119 --> 00:47:28,400
Have fun. I've been to that festival once. I lived

897
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,280
in Athens, Ohio for several years right across the border.

898
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,960
Had to go check it out once. Yeah, you'll have

899
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,440
a great time. I'm currently working on a book, and

900
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,880
I've talked about this, working on a book that's going

901
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,639
to be a really detailed field methods for that's watch

902
00:47:43,639 --> 00:47:52,239
studies of everything from behavioral ecology of sasquatch to collecting samples,

903
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,800
whether they be tracks or genetic samples. Tapping into some

904
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,199
of my contacts and colleagues or experts in those areas

905
00:48:00,519 --> 00:48:03,800
and getting their input. I'm excited about working on that.

906
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,719
That should be completed here before the end of the

907
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,960
calendar year and hopefully out next year. Also, I'm starting

908
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:15,280
to put together a potential Bigfoot boot camp where we're

909
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,400
gonna similar to the camp out, but a little more

910
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:22,159
extensive and a lot more extensive about the educational component,

911
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,320
so give people almost a master's class when they come

912
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,039
out into the woods with us. We're going to go

913
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:32,400
and check out the now famous Bigfoot trap in the

914
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,119
Applegate and Oregon and just get people out into the

915
00:48:35,119 --> 00:48:38,119
woods out here. I think about what a mutual friend

916
00:48:38,159 --> 00:48:42,599
of ours, Cliff Berrickmanoffen says about Sasquatch studies, where his

917
00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:48,400
big recommendation for folks is enjoy themselves. Get out in

918
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,719
the woods. Enjoy yourselves. If you go out, Oh, I

919
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,920
got to see a sasquatch, I got to see a sasquatch.

920
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,320
You're probably going to be disappointed because it just doesn't

921
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,079
happen a lot. So enjoy yourselves. My whole thing is

922
00:49:02,119 --> 00:49:05,039
getting people in touch with nature, getting them to think

923
00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:07,480
about the impact they're making while they're out there, the

924
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,599
connection we have to nature. Yeah, working on those things.

925
00:49:11,679 --> 00:49:13,800
I just want to add on to what you said

926
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,880
about folks reaching out about things on the show. I

927
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,480
think it'd be cool if we gave folks an opportunity

928
00:49:19,519 --> 00:49:21,920
to do a question and answer at some point where

929
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,119
they could call in their questions, anything they want to

930
00:49:25,159 --> 00:49:27,559
call in, and we'll address it on the show. Maybe

931
00:49:27,599 --> 00:49:30,159
we can figure that out, maybe get some folks calling

932
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,239
in live. That's something you and I can talk about more.

933
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,119
But I just had that idea and want to throw

934
00:49:35,119 --> 00:49:36,760
that out to folks if they want to send a

935
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,119
voicemail in give questions, and like you said, we can

936
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:42,119
go through them and figure out one that we want

937
00:49:42,159 --> 00:49:44,360
to address and kind of use as bouncing off of.

938
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,320
If you're listening, you've got ideas, send them in. I

939
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,280
know Brian and I both love to get into new things,

940
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,480
learn new things, talk about new stuff, so please do.

941
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 2: There you go, folks, but for now we're out of here.

942
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:58,440
We'll talk to y'all later.

943
00:49:58,760 --> 00:49:59,079
Speaker 4: Byss