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<v Speaker 1>Hello, and on this first day of Pride Month, welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to Talk ethen, the show where we value good ideas

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<v Speaker 1>over old traditions in ancient poetry, and where beliefs are

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<v Speaker 1>expected to have a good reason. I'm Christy Powell, and

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<v Speaker 1>today I am desperately looking for any reasonably good reason

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<v Speaker 1>to explain a bill on its way to Governor Abbott's desk.

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<v Speaker 1>Senate Bill ten, recently passed by the Texas Senate, would

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<v Speaker 1>require the Ten Commandments to be displayed prominently in every

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<v Speaker 1>public school classroom across the state. Not suggested required, not

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<v Speaker 1>a well rounded history of the people of the state,

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<v Speaker 1>not a collection of quotes from influential lawmakers and founders,

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<v Speaker 1>but a list of rules about how to protect God's

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<v Speaker 1>feelings and how to feel about your neighbor's possessions, including

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<v Speaker 1>his wife. Let's not get ourselves. This is not about history.

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<v Speaker 1>It's about control. It's about whose worldview gets to be

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<v Speaker 1>centered and whose gets pushed aside. Because when the government

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<v Speaker 1>mandates one religious text in a public classroom, it's not

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<v Speaker 1>just promoting values, it's promoting a religion. And when that happens,

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<v Speaker 1>our Muslim neighbors, our Jewish students, our secular families, and

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<v Speaker 1>of course everyone who believes in real religious freedom are

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<v Speaker 1>left standing outside the circle. So let me say it plainly.

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<v Speaker 1>The government doesn't get to pick your god or any

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<v Speaker 1>god for you. That's not freedom, that's coercion in a

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<v Speaker 1>gold leaf, red letter edition. So today, I'd love to

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<v Speaker 1>hear from you, especially if you grew up in a

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<v Speaker 1>school where religion crept into the classroom. How did it

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<v Speaker 1>shape you? How did it silence you? And what does

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<v Speaker 1>it mean for a child to be told by the

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<v Speaker 1>state which believes are worthy of a poster on the wall.

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<v Speaker 1>This conversation matters because neutrality isn't oppression, and inclusion doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>mean erasure. It means every student, every family has the

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<v Speaker 1>right to belong without an altar in their classroom. You're

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<v Speaker 1>watching Talk Heathen. Let's think critically, let's talk honestly, and

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<v Speaker 1>let's get into it because the show it's coming right now. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>welcome everyone. Today is June one, twenty twenty five. I

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<v Speaker 1>am your host, Christy Powell, and with me today is

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<v Speaker 1>my friend objectively Dan excited to be doing this with you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's right. You need a straight cis white guy

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<v Speaker 2>token straight Cis White Guy as your co host for

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<v Speaker 2>this first day of Pride of course, just.

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<v Speaker 1>Jumping into Pride. I mean, we've got big topics. You

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<v Speaker 1>and I grew up in this area. You and I

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<v Speaker 1>grew up around these, you know, kind of evangelical incursions

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<v Speaker 1>into the public school system.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's a lot for us to talk about. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>it's true. We were talking a little bit before the

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<v Speaker 2>show because I did go to public school, but I

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<v Speaker 2>went to public school in Waco, Texas. So I think

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<v Speaker 2>my credibility is still there, you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, like this, Yeah, the secularness of.

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<v Speaker 2>That, you know this, Yes, this was a little bit off,

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit, and somehow I survived. David Oliveria has

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<v Speaker 2>a great joke about Waco. He used to run a

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<v Speaker 2>church there. He said that in Waco there's more Christians

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<v Speaker 2>than people, which is a really good, a really good joke.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, yeah, I definitely seen some violations in my time,

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<v Speaker 2>as you might have as well. Although you went to

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<v Speaker 2>a Christian school, so yeah, I did.

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<v Speaker 1>I did, And so that definitely shapes some of my

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<v Speaker 1>thinking on all of this because for me, it was

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<v Speaker 1>very normalized. It was even pushed and pressured, but not

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<v Speaker 1>to the benefit of anybody I went to school with.

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<v Speaker 1>If you saw the like college acceptance rate of my

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<v Speaker 1>college preparatory religious schooling, you'd see that there are a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of lies being told and a lot of messy

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<v Speaker 1>ideas being preached from the classroom. And I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>anybody should have to go through that if they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>choose it, And I definitely don't want our tax dollars

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<v Speaker 1>paying for it and for the government to be pushing

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<v Speaker 1>it in the ways that it is. So it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>getting messy, and I think we have a lot to

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<v Speaker 1>get into.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, definitely, especially when it comes to stuff like evolution.

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<v Speaker 2>Like again, I went to a good public school that

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<v Speaker 2>actually taught evolution. That was not the norm for most

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<v Speaker 2>of my friends that went to like other schools. And

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<v Speaker 2>even if they taught it like they still definitely was

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<v Speaker 2>a hint of like, oh, this is actually not real,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just based on what I've heard from other people. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that's just one example. There's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>these kinds of issues. Nowadays, they're like, oh, we got

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<v Speaker 2>to put the Ten Commandments in schools. I mean they've

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<v Speaker 2>been doing that for a while, but now it's like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, it feels like it's happening again, these

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<v Speaker 2>sorts of waves of legislation to just do anything but

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<v Speaker 2>actually fixed the material conditions that schools.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. Yeah, and you know, this is at a moment

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<v Speaker 1>where teachers have been begging for raises for a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>We've had a number of like walkouts and protests and

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<v Speaker 1>mess I mean, it is a messy situation and this

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<v Speaker 1>does not feel like the right solution. Yeah, we're definitely

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<v Speaker 1>going to spend some time on these ideas. We definitely

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<v Speaker 1>want to hear from our audience. Of course, talk Heathen.

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<v Speaker 1>We are open to all of your questions about religion,

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<v Speaker 1>secular humanism, atheistic morality, cosmology, philosophy, science, history, life, the universe,

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<v Speaker 1>and everything. Uh. That said, Dan, is there anybody in

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<v Speaker 1>particular you're hoping to talk to today?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>Man, you're asking me, you know, I'm always I'm always

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<v Speaker 2>picking his calls. I feel like you should have the

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<v Speaker 2>first go at it. There's a lot of different ones.

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<v Speaker 2>I see, Jesse looks interesting to me. I think they're

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<v Speaker 2>still in the screening room though. So yeah, so we've.

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<v Speaker 1>Got we've got some good calls on the line. We've

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<v Speaker 1>got a few lines open, and before we jump into

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<v Speaker 1>all of that, I just want to remind people that

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<v Speaker 1>Talk Heathen is a production of the Atheist Community of Austin,

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<v Speaker 1>a five oh one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to

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<v Speaker 1>the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and of course,

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<v Speaker 1>the separation of religion and government. We are a live

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<v Speaker 1>call in show with open lines, so get your calls

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<v Speaker 1>in at five one two four two or from your

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<v Speaker 1>computer at tiny dot c c slash call t H.

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<v Speaker 1>While those calls are loading. While you guys are getting

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<v Speaker 1>in here, let's go ahead and bring our friend Aaron

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<v Speaker 1>in for the question of the week, our Talk Heathen

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<v Speaker 1>to Me segment. Aaron, what you got for us this week?

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<v Speaker 1>You are muted? My friend knew that.

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<v Speaker 4>Was gonna happen to you warn me. There we go,

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<v Speaker 4>all right, uh, all right, well, today it's time for

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<v Speaker 4>our Talk Heathen to Me segment where we get to

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<v Speaker 4>into our question of the week. And last week we

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<v Speaker 4>asked everybody name an inappropriate time and or place to

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<v Speaker 4>suggest a prayer circle, and here are our top three answers.

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<v Speaker 4>Number three from Stephen Kahn. Inappropriate time to suggest a

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<v Speaker 4>prayer circle? Right, before the climax of a bookcocky session.

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<v Speaker 2>It's visceral. It's a little, honestly a little bit. Who's

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<v Speaker 2>picking the who's picking the Yeah, got a wake you up?

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<v Speaker 2>That'll wake you up? Okay.

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<v Speaker 4>Number two from Daniel Aaron, Let's form a prayer circle

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<v Speaker 4>around this tornado and ask God to stop the storm.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, don't do we apply these beliefs I hosted

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<v Speaker 2>to talk to either the lights reminds you not to

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<v Speaker 2>try or attempt.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's gonna work about as well as rolling the

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<v Speaker 4>dice and saying on a one the tornado will dissipate.

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<v Speaker 2>That's just not not going to work.

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<v Speaker 4>And number one from Colin Mattz in an appropriate moment

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<v Speaker 4>for a prayer circle during a square dance.

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<v Speaker 3>Some fun.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah wow, Yeah, so we're our answers are really all

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<v Speaker 1>over the place today.

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<v Speaker 2>Really all over the place. Yeah. We went from dad

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<v Speaker 2>jokes to very sexually explicit humor in the course of

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<v Speaker 2>about thirty seconds. And I don't know how I feel

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<v Speaker 2>about that, but.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the Christy Powell talk, you can guarantee. Yeah, it

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<v Speaker 1>really is.

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<v Speaker 2>It's June, right, It's June. It's a new month. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not trying to yuck somebody's yum. I'm just saying that,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, it's a little it's a little early,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a little literally.

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<v Speaker 3>All right.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, the prompt for next week is what would Jesus'

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<v Speaker 4>rap name be? Damn?

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<v Speaker 1>What would you jan?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>I hope you have something for this.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel so for some reason, what came to mind

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<v Speaker 2>to me was MC A D you know, because it's

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<v Speaker 2>like b C A D. Right, I don't know that

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<v Speaker 2>that's the only thing I could think of it. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not even.

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<v Speaker 1>So not good and it's like better than mine, which

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<v Speaker 1>was just MC JD JC.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, yeah, all right, we came.

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<v Speaker 1>Up with the same bad joke.

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<v Speaker 2>We gotta we gotta fix this in the future.

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<v Speaker 1>Get the pretres in on it.

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<v Speaker 2>You know what. That's okay because our convents will have

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<v Speaker 2>better answers than we will.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, please please rescue us on this question. Give

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<v Speaker 1>us your best this week in the comments to this episode,

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<v Speaker 1>and uh and we'll be future will be featuring you

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<v Speaker 1>next week. All right, thanks guys, thank you Aron. Okay, well,

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<v Speaker 1>with all of that pre m all of that fun,

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<v Speaker 1>let's go ahead and jump on the lines and uh yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you said Jesse in Michigan. Seems like a great conversation

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<v Speaker 1>to start off with, Jesse, what's.

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<v Speaker 2>On your mind today? Hello, Hello, Patty, what can we

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<v Speaker 2>do for you?

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<v Speaker 5>I don't know. You know, my name is Jesse, and

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<v Speaker 5>I understand, and I wanted to talk to you. I'm

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<v Speaker 5>especially grateful to talk to you, uh, Christy, because I

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<v Speaker 5>know you're a mental health professional, and well, my problem

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<v Speaker 5>is dealing with mental health.

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<v Speaker 3>And the atheist community.

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<v Speaker 5>Sure, actually kind of funny, funny, but one of the

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<v Speaker 5>reasons why I became an atheist was sort of called

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<v Speaker 5>my education and the arts kind of help. But also

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<v Speaker 5>I had mental health problems as a teenager, and I

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<v Speaker 5>started receiving cognitive behavioral therapy, which are trying to be

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<v Speaker 5>very helpful, and uh, you know, like it sort of

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<v Speaker 5>helped deconstruct the way that I was thinking as I

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<v Speaker 5>grew up as a Catholic and it, you know, being

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<v Speaker 5>Catholic kind of insinuates that you're worthless and you start

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<v Speaker 5>to believe that.

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<v Speaker 2>Ever while, and yeah, I hear that.

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<v Speaker 3>Directly contributed to my vesic.

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<v Speaker 5>But the problem I'm really having now is that I

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<v Speaker 5>identify as well. I would say that let me be clear,

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<v Speaker 5>I am under the Latino umbrella as far as American

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<v Speaker 5>political way of describing the census is concerned.

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<v Speaker 3>But yeah, let the.

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<v Speaker 5>Audience know that I reject that label because Latino favors Latina,

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<v Speaker 5>favors the colonial powers of the Spanish, and also favors

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<v Speaker 5>the Catholic Church.

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<v Speaker 3>So I forget that, rejects that.

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<v Speaker 5>So yeah, and as a person from Texas, the Texas

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<v Speaker 5>that peppered with ancient sort of a well not really ancient,

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<v Speaker 5>but old missions like the Alamo, which my ancestors were

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<v Speaker 5>converted to either coerce or against their will or using

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<v Speaker 5>force or other means.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I hear that, and I hope that that is

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<v Speaker 1>history that we are still willing to teach in our

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<v Speaker 1>public high schools, which is something I definitely worry about. Like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, San Antonio has a missions baseball team. We're

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<v Speaker 1>definitely aware of their existence, but how do we talk

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<v Speaker 1>about them? What is the story that we are telling people?

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<v Speaker 1>And how are we educating people about the oppressive nature

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<v Speaker 1>of those institutions. They're not just cool old buildings, they're

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<v Speaker 1>they're places of incredible oppression.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, with all of.

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<v Speaker 1>That in mind, Jesse, tell me about your call for today,

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me about your experiences of mental health and the

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<v Speaker 1>atheism community, or what it is that you're struggling with here.

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<v Speaker 5>I guess I'm trying to put it into words. So

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<v Speaker 5>it's really helpful to speak, you know, because I don't

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<v Speaker 5>really have any other resources to talk to other people.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, for example, like I said, I'm in the

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<v Speaker 5>arts and I deal with people who are under the

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<v Speaker 5>atheist umbrella all the time, but I don't know any

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<v Speaker 5>other skeptic and I don't feel at home or safe

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<v Speaker 5>within then my own arts community, because I might have

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<v Speaker 5>someone I said, yeah, I'm idiots, but then they'll believe

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<v Speaker 5>some like some nonset at all, alternative medicine, or I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>in my personal encounters, I encounter a lot of people

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<v Speaker 5>who don't understand what it's like to not be white

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<v Speaker 5>in the arts, and it kind of has it. It

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<v Speaker 5>has it hacks on my mental health and it starts

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<v Speaker 5>to feel like I don't belong And yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I hear that.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, we're here promoting atheism, but we also like

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<v Speaker 1>to bring to the table critical thinking, secular humanism, like

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<v Speaker 1>some of these other notions. Atheism absent those things can

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<v Speaker 1>create a vacuum where a lot of completely irrational wooy

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<v Speaker 1>type beliefs can come in fill some space.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and it makes me feel.

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<v Speaker 5>Like an apple because I talk to people like, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>like in the arts or the hard world. I had

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<v Speaker 5>an exhibition or something, and they'll say something that I

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<v Speaker 5>really just vehemently disagree with that might fall in line

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<v Speaker 5>with a certain RFK. You know, that's all well and good.

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<v Speaker 5>But it's like they can say that stuff and be accepted,

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<v Speaker 5>but I can't. The moment you say I don't believe that,

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<v Speaker 5>I feel like I'm an apple or like I have

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<v Speaker 5>to sort of challenge it, and I.

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<v Speaker 3>Don't want to do that.

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<v Speaker 5>I just want to be accepted in my own space.

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<v Speaker 5>And when I brought up to hont On my culture

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<v Speaker 5>my identity is because I don't feel like I'm at

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<v Speaker 5>home in Texas either, especially with all of the laws

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<v Speaker 5>that are changing and sort of oppress I mean, what

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<v Speaker 5>it comes down to, it's depressing me in my own

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<v Speaker 5>country and it doesn't feel good to be the target

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<v Speaker 5>of this administration. And I find a lot of allyship

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<v Speaker 5>with the trans community that I have a lot of

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<v Speaker 5>respect for because it's sort of this quest of finding

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<v Speaker 5>the space that you belong in. And I would say

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<v Speaker 5>I align this that tremendously, but I guess on I

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<v Speaker 5>guess it's really hard to put this into words. I'm

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<v Speaker 5>trying to find a place where I belong, but the

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<v Speaker 5>atheist community that I know of isn't sufficient. And you know,

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<v Speaker 5>I don't fit into my own community either, because uh,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, I'm an artist. And so if I get

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<v Speaker 5>asked all the time to do a.

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<v Speaker 3>Painting of our Lady at Guadalupe, do you know that image?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, I get asked to do that.

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<v Speaker 5>A lot, I'm like, I don't believe this and that

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<v Speaker 5>to me, Catholicism is the sword in which was used

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<v Speaker 5>to oppress my ancestors, and I strongly rejected. And I

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<v Speaker 5>know that you'll receive a lot of costs from other

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<v Speaker 5>Latino people.

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<v Speaker 3>I can hear it in the accent, and it breaks my.

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<v Speaker 5>Heart to hear people loving that oppression. These people literally

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<v Speaker 5>killed and committed Jen Bates violence against my ancestors two

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<v Speaker 5>hundred years ago, and it's you know, and this sort

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<v Speaker 5>of mass deportation is a continuation of that, and it

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<v Speaker 5>makes me feel it's like not good for my mental health.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, the lack of inclusion here is breathtaking, and

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<v Speaker 1>I can absolutely appreciate why it's challenging to find a

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<v Speaker 1>community where you feel like you fit in. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I did not go looking for the atheist community of Austin.

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<v Speaker 1>I really stumbled backwards into it. And now I'm so

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<v Speaker 1>grateful years later to have so many wonderful friends and

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<v Speaker 1>so many ties to this community where I'm surrounded by

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<v Speaker 1>people who don't just reject the idea of a god,

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<v Speaker 1>but who have a interest in skepticism, who have an

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<v Speaker 1>interest in promoting the separation of religion and government, who

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<v Speaker 1>are concerned about and keeping an eye on the ways

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<v Speaker 1>that religion mixed up with government can lead to all

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<v Speaker 1>forms of bigotry and oppression, and certainly what we are

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<v Speaker 1>seeing in the mass deportation movement and some of these

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<v Speaker 1>other like very real issues. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly

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<v Speaker 1>where to point you beyond saying building your own community

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<v Speaker 1>is always going.

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<v Speaker 2>To be a part of the process.

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<v Speaker 1>But Dan, is there any particular organization anything that comes

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<v Speaker 1>to mind, or any advice that you might have on

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<v Speaker 1>how to connect with people who Jesse maybe be able

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<v Speaker 1>to better relate to.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's really tough because not everybody views atheism the

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<v Speaker 2>same way that we necessarily do. So, like there's this

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<v Speaker 2>there was this idea put out. It was twenty twelve.

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<v Speaker 2>A person named Jay mcwright wrote this thing is called

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<v Speaker 2>atheism plus, and it was in a response to sort

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<v Speaker 2>of some sexual scandals that were happening in atheist conferences

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<v Speaker 2>and stuff, and all was basically saying was, hey, we

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<v Speaker 2>should also be like atheists and feminists, right, which is

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<v Speaker 2>something that like, I feel like most people we talk

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<v Speaker 2>today is like, yeah, obviously that was like a big

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<v Speaker 2>deal to a lot of people. Then this idea that

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<v Speaker 2>atheism could also encompass these other values or even should

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<v Speaker 2>have any value judgments on other issues, for some people,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a novel thing, and some people still struggle with that.

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<v Speaker 2>And to incorporate these other values of humanism and these

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<v Speaker 2>other values of recognizing oppression and histories of violence and

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<v Speaker 2>things like that and finding against that. So like that's

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<v Speaker 2>a difficulty in itself, right one is finding atheists that

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<v Speaker 2>also align yourselves in those values. That's definitely different. Now

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<v Speaker 2>I think more people are open to that, but there's

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<v Speaker 2>still some multiple people that don't even incorporate that. So

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<v Speaker 2>you have that, but also, you know, atheists in general

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<v Speaker 2>organizing atheist organizations, the saying has been said many times

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<v Speaker 2>it's like organizing a herd of cats, just because you

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<v Speaker 2>have so many people who value themselves as free thinkers

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<v Speaker 2>and skeptics that they tend to fight a lot. There

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<v Speaker 2>tends to be a lot of miscommunication, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes skills are misappropriated in places. So you know, when

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<v Speaker 2>Christy is saying, yeah, you should start your own I

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<v Speaker 2>understand that there's a huge challenge there and that's not

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<v Speaker 2>something that everybody can really do. But honestly, the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>fruits of organizations I've seen have come from people who

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<v Speaker 2>really do this stuff out of a labor of love

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<v Speaker 2>and who really want to like see the change that

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<v Speaker 2>they want to put out, the change that they want

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<v Speaker 2>to see like in the world. So if you're feeling

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<v Speaker 2>these feelings of man, I really want to talk to

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<v Speaker 2>other people about this. I want to make stuff happen.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm actually with Christian saying, like, hey, starting your own

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<v Speaker 2>group and getting stuff started is is maybe the better

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<v Speaker 2>way than trying to find a group where you might

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<v Speaker 2>not even fit in or want to make the things

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<v Speaker 2>different anyway, yeah, can I one.

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<v Speaker 5>One to think, of course.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>I wanted to say one thing to the audience about

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<v Speaker 5>like what it means to be a person like in

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<v Speaker 5>your own because I reject all a tata label. I

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<v Speaker 5>thought more under the mestizeo category, which is, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>the a you know, the old term for the Spanish

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<v Speaker 5>mixing with indigenous blood and m favor of the indigenous

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<v Speaker 5>culture more because that's frankly, you know, I've been to

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<v Speaker 5>Spain and I don't look like a Spanish person at all.

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<v Speaker 5>I've been to Mexico and I don't really been in

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<v Speaker 5>there either. I'm a Tehano, and I wanted to show

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<v Speaker 5>this with yours, who are listeners who also might be

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<v Speaker 5>that under that category, I say, claim your native identity,

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<v Speaker 5>because that's what I am and my ancestors are. Will

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<v Speaker 5>also be known as the Clilticon, which is basically all

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<v Speaker 5>of South Texas, and that's my home and I've missed.

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<v Speaker 3>It, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's because I wanted to sort of distill the

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<v Speaker 5>foreignness of the Latino term, because I mean, like I said,

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<v Speaker 5>I'm Tohano, but I haven't you know, I'm not really

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<v Speaker 5>any I don't have anything in common with somebody from Mudawai,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, or I don't have anything in common from

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<v Speaker 5>somebody from Cuba. There's a difference that really.

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<v Speaker 2>Matters, absolutely, absolutely, especially in Texas, right. Uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Latino being the highest minority group in Texas, right, so

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<v Speaker 2>many people having their own individual communities and cultures here

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<v Speaker 2>that's different from the rest of the world. We're asking

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<v Speaker 2>ourselves a lot these days, what terms like race mean

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<v Speaker 2>to us, these sorts of social constructs that people tie

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<v Speaker 2>their identities to. What is the importance of that, How

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<v Speaker 2>that representation may not reflect the individual experiences of people broadly.

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, of the opinion that you should take whatever

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<v Speaker 2>label you feel comfortable for yourself and take the labels

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<v Speaker 2>that if you think share certain particular values to you,

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<v Speaker 2>that you try to uphold those values, I'm all for it. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So many people in the skeptic community get very uncomfortable

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<v Speaker 1>with the notion of like self identification, and we start

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<v Speaker 1>hearing these references to like identifying as attack helicopters in

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<v Speaker 1>some of that bullshit language. And I think this is

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<v Speaker 1>a very clear cut description of what these ideas really

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<v Speaker 1>mean and why we have to sort of wrestle with

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<v Speaker 1>our own identity and then connect to and identify with

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<v Speaker 1>the aspects of our own history, the aspects of our

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<v Speaker 1>own birth and genetics and whatever else that are important

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<v Speaker 1>to us and that we value and not just take

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<v Speaker 1>a oppressive label that is slapped on us by a

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<v Speaker 1>government census or a birth certificate or whatever else. So

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<v Speaker 1>I don't mean to overly conflate these things here, but Jesse,

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<v Speaker 1>I really appreciate you talking to your feelings about that

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<v Speaker 1>Latino label and why it doesn't feel appropriate to you,

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<v Speaker 1>and why there is so much religious oppression mixed up

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<v Speaker 1>even in that you know, government census data.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and the fact.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm in a mestizo was simply put there by the

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<v Speaker 5>Catholic Church, and people just take it for granted because

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<v Speaker 5>I'm like, no, the problem is is that again, Texas.

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<v Speaker 3>Is my home. It's our home.

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<v Speaker 5>It's it would be evil to be deported from my

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<v Speaker 5>own land like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, I'm sort.

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<v Speaker 5>Of like really vehement, And I do think that the

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<v Speaker 5>massive blocks that voted for Trump, that under the Latino umbrella,

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<v Speaker 5>I think voted by uh it was It's a mistake.

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<v Speaker 5>It's I think the Catholic Church is the reason for that,

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<v Speaker 5>because there's a lot of conservativism that's inserted in the

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<v Speaker 5>church because I used to be Catholic and I strongly

423
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:01.720
<v Speaker 5>reject that, and I think that's that might be why

424
00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:03.319
<v Speaker 5>a lot of looking voted for trauma.

425
00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:05.920
<v Speaker 1>No question, there's a lot to be said about voting

426
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.480
<v Speaker 1>against your own self interest because of these religious affiliations

427
00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:13.079
<v Speaker 1>and sort of a block voting that comes along with

428
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.640
<v Speaker 1>our two party system. Thank you so much for reaching

429
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:19.400
<v Speaker 1>out and for sharing all of this. We definitely hope

430
00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:23.240
<v Speaker 1>that you find a community that better suits you, and Lord,

431
00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:26.000
<v Speaker 1>I know that Dan and I are here, at least

432
00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.480
<v Speaker 1>in part to try and advocate for a government for

433
00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.400
<v Speaker 1>a world that is less interested than the one we

434
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:39.319
<v Speaker 1>currently have in othering ostracizing, escape voting minority communities.

435
00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:41.799
<v Speaker 2>Definitely, yeah, I mean to me.

436
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:43.920
<v Speaker 5>Also, one last thing is that I feel like the

437
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.920
<v Speaker 5>atheist community online that I can do connect with are

438
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:49.839
<v Speaker 5>the closest people I really find sort of a home

439
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.440
<v Speaker 5>with because I mean my community. I mean I mentioned

440
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:55.559
<v Speaker 5>atheism amongst the Chicano Tohano community. Man, that's a good

441
00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:57.759
<v Speaker 5>way to get kicked out of a house Gore.

442
00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:00.960
<v Speaker 2>But you know what, though, you as an individual are

443
00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.400
<v Speaker 2>going to be a better advocate for that in those

444
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:06.559
<v Speaker 2>spaces than Christy and I ever will. Right, So you

445
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:09.519
<v Speaker 2>know there is an advantage of your connections to those

446
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:12.319
<v Speaker 2>spaces that I think, you know, could be seen as

447
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.240
<v Speaker 2>something to again like take advantage of. I'm not telling

448
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:17.599
<v Speaker 2>you what to do, right, but maybe there are people

449
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:20.200
<v Speaker 2>in those communies who are also just as isolated as

450
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:23.480
<v Speaker 2>you are because they don't have those kinds of connections

451
00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:26.000
<v Speaker 2>or resources, or think of atheism as a white thing,

452
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:27.920
<v Speaker 2>because a lot of people think of atheism as a

453
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:31.680
<v Speaker 2>white thing. So you know there's something to that too,

454
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:32.519
<v Speaker 2>just to keep in mind.

455
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I'll just point out that the incredible crew

456
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.039
<v Speaker 1>that helps Dan and I put this show on. Like

457
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:41.000
<v Speaker 1>Dan and I are both local to the Austin area

458
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:43.640
<v Speaker 1>and both grew up around here, but our crew is

459
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:46.279
<v Speaker 1>made up from folks all over the place. I mean,

460
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:49.400
<v Speaker 1>we were telling jokes about Canada earlier today, Like we

461
00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:53.200
<v Speaker 1>are from everywhere, And if you don't have a community,

462
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:57.039
<v Speaker 1>maybe the atheist community of Austin can be a part

463
00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:00.240
<v Speaker 1>of that solution. Wherever it is that you're located. We

464
00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.599
<v Speaker 1>always have volunteer opportunities, We have all kinds of different

465
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.759
<v Speaker 1>meetups and opportunities to participate in this community. We hope

466
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:09.680
<v Speaker 1>that you'll join us and that you can find something

467
00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:10.319
<v Speaker 1>of value there.

468
00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:12.440
<v Speaker 5>Thank you very much, I super Gooper appreciate it and

469
00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:13.119
<v Speaker 5>I hope to.

470
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:15.279
<v Speaker 1>Talk to you all against so hey stame here. Thank

471
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:16.799
<v Speaker 1>you so much for giving us call. You have a

472
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:17.240
<v Speaker 1>great day.

473
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:18.039
<v Speaker 6>Well.

474
00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:21.240
<v Speaker 2>In reference to the folks who.

475
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:23.640
<v Speaker 1>Helped us put all of this together, I have once

476
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.160
<v Speaker 1>again neglected to say a big thank you to our crew.

477
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:29.839
<v Speaker 1>I'd love to get them up on the screen, folks

478
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:32.640
<v Speaker 1>who are from all over the place. Thank you so

479
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:35.000
<v Speaker 1>much for everything that you guys do to make us

480
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:36.799
<v Speaker 1>look good and to make all of this work.

481
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:39.559
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, we can't have a show without the crew.

482
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:42.160
<v Speaker 2>It can't just be us two guys just talking into

483
00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:44.720
<v Speaker 2>the void. That's what it would be. Otherwise, Yeah, that's

484
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:46.920
<v Speaker 2>the thing. It's like, it would just be a void.

485
00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:48.920
<v Speaker 1>It would just be you and I not out in

486
00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:51.680
<v Speaker 1>front of an audience, and definitely not lit so well

487
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:53.559
<v Speaker 1>or sounding so smoothly.

488
00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.200
<v Speaker 2>That's true, that's true. I just I really appreciate that

489
00:23:57.240 --> 00:23:59.839
<v Speaker 2>call because you and I are I know, are of

490
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.000
<v Speaker 2>the same mind about this. But I've talked to other

491
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:06.000
<v Speaker 2>skeptics who are so baffled when we talk about grace

492
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:09.599
<v Speaker 2>as a social construct, where it's like, yeah, of course

493
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.640
<v Speaker 2>it is, of course it is. How could it not

494
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:14.880
<v Speaker 2>be right? And yeah, that's that should be treated with

495
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:16.720
<v Speaker 2>the same amount of skepticism as we do with all

496
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:18.599
<v Speaker 2>the other kinds of topics that we talk about here,

497
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:21.519
<v Speaker 2>with the all the nuances and things that come with that.

498
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.400
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, that kind of identity is sort of self

499
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:28.079
<v Speaker 2>defined and always has been. And when people kind of

500
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:30.920
<v Speaker 2>realize that there's a power there, there's a liberation that

501
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:34.559
<v Speaker 2>comes with that that people don't realize and sometimes they

502
00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:36.359
<v Speaker 2>feel like they have to keep up with the status

503
00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:39.799
<v Speaker 2>quo because well, there's a lot of reasons why, but

504
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:41.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, just an interesting conversation.

505
00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:45.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, whether you are looking to volunteer or honestly

506
00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:49.160
<v Speaker 1>just looking to be a part of our extended digital community,

507
00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:51.680
<v Speaker 1>or even if you're local to the Austin area, we

508
00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:54.759
<v Speaker 1>want you to be a part of this community. Www.

509
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:58.680
<v Speaker 1>Dot Atheist Hyphencommunity dot org is a great place to

510
00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:01.559
<v Speaker 1>start where you can learn more about this organization, it's

511
00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:05.480
<v Speaker 1>policies and different ways to get involved. So with that,

512
00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:08.759
<v Speaker 1>what do you say, we talked to Tom in Mississippi.

513
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:10.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that sounds good. Let's do it all.

514
00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:13.720
<v Speaker 1>Right, Tom, you have some thoughts about comparative religion and

515
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:15.640
<v Speaker 1>religion in schools. What's on your mind?

516
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:17.880
<v Speaker 7>Oh? Yeah, First, I'd like to endorse share, thanks for

517
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:22.839
<v Speaker 7>everybody who makes possible. But as to teaching comparative religion,

518
00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:27.559
<v Speaker 7>I think that the actual syllabus taught might be fraught

519
00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:30.640
<v Speaker 7>with tension. Sure, I believe it should only be taught

520
00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:33.680
<v Speaker 7>as elective, which kind of implies that it's not going

521
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:38.079
<v Speaker 7>to be taught at the elementary school level, only at

522
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:42.720
<v Speaker 7>secondary levels, possibly at the high school level, but certainly

523
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:45.680
<v Speaker 7>no sooner than that. And the reason I say it

524
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.599
<v Speaker 7>should be elective is closely tied to that. For instance,

525
00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:54.039
<v Speaker 7>if you're pursuing a major which has nothing to do

526
00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:57.839
<v Speaker 7>in any articulable way with religion, you can go ahead

527
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:00.400
<v Speaker 7>and take comparative religion, but it wouldn't be really required.

528
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.039
<v Speaker 7>On the other hand, the fine point is you might

529
00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:06.880
<v Speaker 7>have a declared major where the people in charge of

530
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:11.680
<v Speaker 7>that school feel that comparative religion is required for the major,

531
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:15.160
<v Speaker 7>in which case it's required, not only. And the Bacond

532
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:17.759
<v Speaker 7>issue I had was about it not. I don't. I

533
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:20.720
<v Speaker 7>failed to see how this is even a debate. It

534
00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:24.160
<v Speaker 7>seems to me that the plane reading of the constitutional laws,

535
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:26.599
<v Speaker 7>they are historical documents. I mean, one of the most

536
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.200
<v Speaker 7>notable being the Treaty of Tripling, if I got that

537
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:33.799
<v Speaker 7>name right. The government should just be ponderously unaware that

538
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:36.519
<v Speaker 7>such a thing is religion even exists. I think that's

539
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:39.559
<v Speaker 7>the only way to keep thing wee in a legal sense.

540
00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:44.720
<v Speaker 7>So religious behavior as a special category in law should

541
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.480
<v Speaker 7>not exist. I think all that should exist is what

542
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:51.359
<v Speaker 7>current the web exists as acceptable social behavior.

543
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, I hear you.

544
00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:56.119
<v Speaker 1>And let's I suppose take those points kind of one

545
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.920
<v Speaker 1>at a time, Like the notion of teaching comparative really

546
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.559
<v Speaker 1>religion in high school. You know, I'm not a educator.

547
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:08.440
<v Speaker 1>I don't necessarily know how to best break that down,

548
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:11.880
<v Speaker 1>but I do feel like it's important to acknowledge that

549
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:14.519
<v Speaker 1>it would be impossible, in my mind, to get a

550
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:18.960
<v Speaker 1>well rounded education at the high school level without ever

551
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:22.839
<v Speaker 1>having been introduced to religion and the role that it

552
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.519
<v Speaker 1>is played in our history, in the role that it

553
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:29.640
<v Speaker 1>has played in you know, really shaping science and philosophy

554
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:32.920
<v Speaker 1>and all of these other things. So I don't feel

555
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:35.319
<v Speaker 1>like I would be in support of some sort of

556
00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:38.880
<v Speaker 1>blanket band where like high schools can't even acknowledge the

557
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:42.839
<v Speaker 1>existence of these belief systems. But that's not the same

558
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:46.640
<v Speaker 1>as singling out a particular one and raising it up

559
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:49.240
<v Speaker 1>to something that we have to like honor as an

560
00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:52.960
<v Speaker 1>important part of our history, when it's certainly like the

561
00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:57.039
<v Speaker 1>Christianity is not all of our shared history or the

562
00:27:57.079 --> 00:28:00.880
<v Speaker 1>shared history of everybody who goes to these schools, Dan,

563
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.119
<v Speaker 1>what do you want to say on that idea before

564
00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:06.920
<v Speaker 1>we talk about, you know, the constitutionality.

565
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.839
<v Speaker 2>Of this law. Now I agree with you. How can

566
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:12.599
<v Speaker 2>you possibly talk about history and the history of ideas

567
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.920
<v Speaker 2>without talking about religion. I mean, that just seems so

568
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:18.640
<v Speaker 2>silly to me to be like, wow, we can't talk

569
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.319
<v Speaker 2>about this aspect of human society and human culture even

570
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:25.160
<v Speaker 2>though it's one of the most influential forces on the

571
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:30.039
<v Speaker 2>planet for what we've done, right, Like, I completely disagree

572
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.480
<v Speaker 2>it should be it should be available to be taught,

573
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Whether it should be a mandatory elective, that's another conversation.

574
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.359
<v Speaker 2>But I'll tell you this, Christy. When I was in college,

575
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:42.200
<v Speaker 2>I took a course on Islamic studies taught by a

576
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:46.279
<v Speaker 2>Muslim professor, and I learned about Islam and its history,

577
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:49.759
<v Speaker 2>particularly in Arabic society, and you know what, that was

578
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:52.240
<v Speaker 2>invaluable to me. I have no stock in Islam. I

579
00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:53.839
<v Speaker 2>have no stock in it. I don't think any of

580
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:56.240
<v Speaker 2>it's at least the core tenets of it are true

581
00:28:56.359 --> 00:28:59.119
<v Speaker 2>in any capacity. But I have a better understanding of

582
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:02.519
<v Speaker 2>the history of the those ideas and have influences in

583
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:04.119
<v Speaker 2>the world. And you know what, I if I ever

584
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:07.000
<v Speaker 2>do talk to a Muslim, I have a better context

585
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:09.480
<v Speaker 2>in which to approach that conversation than I ever would

586
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:14.200
<v Speaker 2>have without taking that course. So it's absolutely vital, I think,

587
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:18.319
<v Speaker 2>and important, especially if you're in a humanities study. But honestly,

588
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:21.519
<v Speaker 2>anybody that has a major in school these days, in

589
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:24.400
<v Speaker 2>most universities, has to have some sort of humanities So

590
00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:26.880
<v Speaker 2>even if you're doing like engineering, so like that, that's

591
00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:29.519
<v Speaker 2>always going to be a thing people are going to take,

592
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:34.480
<v Speaker 2>whether they are particularly interested in themselves or not. So yeah,

593
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.079
<v Speaker 2>I mean it should be available for people to teach.

594
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:39.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I'm in the same campus you though,

595
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:41.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a professional in this regard. I don't know,

596
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:44.039
<v Speaker 2>like am I going to put a tier list as

597
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:47.000
<v Speaker 2>to teaching this over that. I don't know. That's a

598
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:49.880
<v Speaker 2>little outside of my skille. But is it valuable, should

599
00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:52.519
<v Speaker 2>it be taught, should it be available to be taught? Absolutely?

600
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:56.640
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I think I think maybe I was a bit misunderstood.

601
00:29:56.839 --> 00:29:57.920
<v Speaker 2>Sure, help us out.

602
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:01.200
<v Speaker 7>I did not mean to imply that at below high

603
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:04.319
<v Speaker 7>school level, or even at high school level, that any

604
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:07.559
<v Speaker 7>mention of religion was for botten. There's a difference between

605
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:12.559
<v Speaker 7>saying that historically the Roman Catholic Church did this and

606
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:15.599
<v Speaker 7>the Church of England did that, as opposed to discussing

607
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:19.559
<v Speaker 7>the theology of the Roman Catholic Church of the Anglican Church.

608
00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:20.440
<v Speaker 7>That's the difference.

609
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:24.720
<v Speaker 2>I still disagree with you because theology. I gotta stop

610
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:27.599
<v Speaker 2>you right there, Tom, because that distinction is still not

611
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:30.119
<v Speaker 2>good enough for me. Yes, we should talk about the history,

612
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:32.160
<v Speaker 2>and yes, I do think we should talk about the theology,

613
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.240
<v Speaker 2>because you know why, the theology also influenced the history.

614
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:35.720
<v Speaker 6>Right.

615
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:39.240
<v Speaker 2>History doesn't happen in evacue. It comes through a zeitgeist

616
00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:44.079
<v Speaker 2>of ideas, and theology has informed philosophy, and philosophy has

617
00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:47.079
<v Speaker 2>informed the world. I mean, I don't have to agree

618
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:50.319
<v Speaker 2>with it Obviously I don't write I'm on the hello,

619
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:52.640
<v Speaker 2>I want to talk Evean. Okay, we're on the same

620
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.519
<v Speaker 2>page there. But it's still important to know these things

621
00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:57.880
<v Speaker 2>and have be able to be informed about it. So yeah,

622
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.000
<v Speaker 2>I still think that that's just as important.

623
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:03.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can't teach world cultures, you can't teach world

624
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:08.000
<v Speaker 1>history without at least acknowledging what much of the world believes.

625
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:11.240
<v Speaker 1>And I think that there is value in diving somewhat

626
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:15.119
<v Speaker 1>at an age appropriate level, from a neutral point of view,

627
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:18.880
<v Speaker 1>into what some of those beliefs are. I mean, is

628
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:21.519
<v Speaker 1>that fair, Tom, Like we're whether or not there's like

629
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:24.720
<v Speaker 1>a dedicated course to comparative religion at the high school

630
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.160
<v Speaker 1>level is a very specific question that I don't feel

631
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.480
<v Speaker 1>qualified to answer. But I do believe that, you know,

632
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:33.359
<v Speaker 1>even in the third grade, when we're learning about world

633
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.039
<v Speaker 1>history and world cultures, that we can acknowledge some of

634
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:39.279
<v Speaker 1>the world's varying belief systems.

635
00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:45.200
<v Speaker 7>Again, I don't believe that I stated that religion could

636
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:50.200
<v Speaker 7>not be mentioned. Yeah, I will acknowledge that this question

637
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:56.240
<v Speaker 7>of at what point is it appropriate to go to

638
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.599
<v Speaker 7>different depth into religion in terms of at what point

639
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:03.160
<v Speaker 7>many at what age or under what curriculum is a

640
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:07.519
<v Speaker 7>difficult question. There is not a bright line answer, I

641
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:11.640
<v Speaker 7>don't think at all. However, that being said, for instance,

642
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:14.319
<v Speaker 7>in the third grade, it would be entirely possible to

643
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:18.680
<v Speaker 7>mention that, following my earlier analogy, that Henryet and his

644
00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:24.680
<v Speaker 7>advisors decided to split off from the Roman Catholic Church

645
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:31.839
<v Speaker 7>without getting into theological discussions behind it, because that can

646
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:36.680
<v Speaker 7>be addressed. I mean, you can mention the dore theological differences,

647
00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:39.000
<v Speaker 7>and you might even mention baldly what a couple are.

648
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:42.559
<v Speaker 7>But what should not happen is a debate over the merits.

649
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:45.160
<v Speaker 7>On the other hand, I can have a debate over

650
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:49.480
<v Speaker 7>the merits of the political situation there. But I think

651
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.759
<v Speaker 7>the other important thing to say is that it's very

652
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:56.119
<v Speaker 7>context sensitive in terms of age and curriculum. But the

653
00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:01.559
<v Speaker 7>reason why I hesitate at lower level is is very pragmatic.

654
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:04.839
<v Speaker 7>In many places, I'm not sure of all, but in

655
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:08.519
<v Speaker 7>many places, the curriculum at elementary or junior high school

656
00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:12.759
<v Speaker 7>level is settled very much by a local or relatively

657
00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:19.039
<v Speaker 7>local school board. Now when you get to a college level,

658
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:22.640
<v Speaker 7>it's completely different. You're not going to your local public

659
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:26.480
<v Speaker 7>school or to a public school that the local area

660
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:29.160
<v Speaker 7>will allow you to attend. If there is a public school.

661
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:35.720
<v Speaker 7>Choice college now is entirely choice based pache financial considerations. Obviously,

662
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:40.200
<v Speaker 7>the college that you go to, given your qualified to

663
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:44.519
<v Speaker 7>go to, that college, is much more of a choice. Hence,

664
00:33:44.920 --> 00:33:49.640
<v Speaker 7>I don't really care about who's setting the syllabus as

665
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:53.880
<v Speaker 7>long as you observe separation of church and state. If

666
00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:57.759
<v Speaker 7>you're a college that exists general funding or state funding,

667
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:05.759
<v Speaker 7>there needs to be oversight over well how balanced the syllabus.

668
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.679
<v Speaker 2>Tom, I got great news for you, because there's no

669
00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:12.639
<v Speaker 2>third grader in the in anywhere in this entire country

670
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:16.599
<v Speaker 2>that's learning about Henry the eighth and his theological inclinations

671
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:21.239
<v Speaker 2>or political inclinations. That's not a thing. It's it's I

672
00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:24.280
<v Speaker 2>and I'm saying this is someone who's former careers in

673
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:28.119
<v Speaker 2>private education. Okay, the standards are set. Yes, you're right

674
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:31.320
<v Speaker 2>in that courses are selected by local school boards, but

675
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:34.280
<v Speaker 2>standards of instruction are still set by the state. Right

676
00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:38.159
<v Speaker 2>and so uh that's you know, nobody in elementary school

677
00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:41.119
<v Speaker 2>is getting a deep cut on Thomas Aquinas and then

678
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:44.519
<v Speaker 2>their theology and stuff, right, I don't think, Uh, that's

679
00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:47.960
<v Speaker 2>it's just not happening, right. I think we're talking about

680
00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:51.039
<v Speaker 2>maybe high school electives here and how appropriate that might be.

681
00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:55.119
<v Speaker 2>And even then, uh yeah, maybe having a you know,

682
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:57.760
<v Speaker 2>a deep cut theology class may not be the most

683
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:01.320
<v Speaker 2>important thing when compared to other stuff. But I mean,

684
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:02.719
<v Speaker 2>if it's an elective, it's an elective.

685
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:03.159
<v Speaker 3>Right.

686
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:06.760
<v Speaker 2>They're certainly not doing that in most public schools. In fact,

687
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:08.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if any public schools, certainly not in Texas,

688
00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:12.800
<v Speaker 2>that are requiring Christian stuff, although Oklahoma's trying to change that.

689
00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:15.159
<v Speaker 2>But the point is, you know, it's you know.

690
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:19.920
<v Speaker 1>It's understanding some of the core principles or precepts of

691
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:22.159
<v Speaker 1>all of this is not the same thing as debating

692
00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:24.519
<v Speaker 1>their merit. So you know, I don't want to get

693
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:27.480
<v Speaker 1>too much further into the weeds of us sort of

694
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:29.559
<v Speaker 1>pontificating on what.

695
00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:31.280
<v Speaker 2>Schools should be teaching.

696
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:34.159
<v Speaker 1>But I, you know, just broadly want to acknowledge that

697
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:37.639
<v Speaker 1>I think at any age it is appropriate to acknowledge

698
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:41.199
<v Speaker 1>religion exists and this is what some people believe, and

699
00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:45.159
<v Speaker 1>this is what other people believe. But to your other

700
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:49.000
<v Speaker 1>point about the constitutionality of this law that is being

701
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.320
<v Speaker 1>considered here in Texas and that is very likely to

702
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:57.440
<v Speaker 1>be signed by the governor soon. I do worry about

703
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:00.719
<v Speaker 1>the constitutionality. You know, a very similar, if not almost

704
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:03.679
<v Speaker 1>identical law, as I understand it was struck down in

705
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:07.599
<v Speaker 1>Louisiana by the Supreme Court, and that there is cause

706
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:12.039
<v Speaker 1>to believe that this will almost immediately be challenged. And

707
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:15.679
<v Speaker 1>as a non lawyer, that makes good goddamn sense, because

708
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:18.039
<v Speaker 1>it's hard for me to wrap my head around how

709
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:21.480
<v Speaker 1>this could possibly line up with the constitution.

710
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:24.079
<v Speaker 7>Yep, yeah, I think we're I think we're in agreement there.

711
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:31.199
<v Speaker 7>I take a probably a reasonably extreme vital with it

712
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:34.920
<v Speaker 7>when I say the government should be ponderously unaware in

713
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:40.360
<v Speaker 7>the law. But yeah, And the only thing I was

714
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:43.159
<v Speaker 7>trying to get at is that I think that getting

715
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 7>back to you know, what's taught. I think that at

716
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:49.800
<v Speaker 7>the college level is pretty clear cut that the government

717
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:52.480
<v Speaker 7>should be out of it. I think that in grade

718
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:54.639
<v Speaker 7>school is pretty clear that you don't want to dive

719
00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:57.719
<v Speaker 7>into the merits. And it gets funny when you talk

720
00:36:57.719 --> 00:36:59.559
<v Speaker 7>about high school. That's all I'm saying.

721
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:03.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, fair enough, No, I mean debating over the merits

722
00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:06.320
<v Speaker 1>of a particular belief system. You know that can get

723
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:10.440
<v Speaker 1>certainly very messy. I like the idea of teenagers learning

724
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:13.320
<v Speaker 1>critical thinking skills. I like the idea of them being

725
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:18.360
<v Speaker 1>able to criticize a set of beliefs or a particular philosophy,

726
00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:23.599
<v Speaker 1>even if they're thirteen and wrong, even if their conclusions

727
00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:28.079
<v Speaker 1>aren't necessarily what I would hope for from them. I

728
00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:30.960
<v Speaker 1>think that part of any well rounded education is a

729
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:34.280
<v Speaker 1>willingness to question things, to challenge things, and being taught

730
00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:38.840
<v Speaker 1>maybe how to do that in a reasonable, well reasoned,

731
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:42.679
<v Speaker 1>intellectual way. So you know, we're on the same page here,

732
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:44.960
<v Speaker 1>and it sounds like Tom, we're all just kind of

733
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.679
<v Speaker 1>crossing our fingers that we are headed in the right

734
00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:52.119
<v Speaker 1>direction politically, and that our governance is going to honor

735
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:54.840
<v Speaker 1>the rule of law and that we can actually hold

736
00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:56.039
<v Speaker 1>strong to the Constitution.

737
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:59.519
<v Speaker 7>Yep. Just one final thing I'd say is that I

738
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:04.639
<v Speaker 7>want to adorse your belief in the importance of the

739
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:08.559
<v Speaker 7>humanities or what used to be called liberal arts, even

740
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:13.480
<v Speaker 7>among people who are taking a strongly technical major. I'm

741
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:14.960
<v Speaker 7>with you there too, absolutely.

742
00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we need to prevent stem lords from ruining our society.

743
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:21.800
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I'm always going to promote demands there.

744
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:23.880
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, Okay, that'll do it. Thanks a lot.

745
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:26.320
<v Speaker 1>Well, Yeah, thank you, Tom. We really appreciate it talking

746
00:38:26.360 --> 00:38:28.519
<v Speaker 1>to you. Yeah, Dan, is it?

747
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:29.159
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

748
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:32.360
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to be too squeamish, like I recognize

749
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:34.760
<v Speaker 1>that talking than the atheist community of Boston. We've been

750
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:38.360
<v Speaker 1>having conversations like this for a long time. I don't

751
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:41.559
<v Speaker 1>necessarily know that we're a watchdog organization, but this is

752
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:44.440
<v Speaker 1>certainly not the first time that two hosts like you

753
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:47.880
<v Speaker 1>and I have sat down and wrung our hands about

754
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:51.079
<v Speaker 1>the erosion of the wall of separation of church and state.

755
00:38:51.320 --> 00:38:55.320
<v Speaker 1>That being said, does this feel like just another tug

756
00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:59.280
<v Speaker 1>back and forth in the tug of war? Or for you,

757
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:02.920
<v Speaker 1>does it to feel like we are, you know, taking

758
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:06.719
<v Speaker 1>another meaningful step in an increasingly worrying direction.

759
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:11.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh, oh, increasingly worrying direction, there, Christy, I mean.

760
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:14.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so not just being alarmist right now, listen.

761
00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:19.320
<v Speaker 2>In my lifetime, this has been the greatest threat of

762
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:23.840
<v Speaker 2>that separation, I would say, for sure, because of the

763
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:28.360
<v Speaker 2>political situation, because of our Supreme Court situation. In my

764
00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:33.159
<v Speaker 2>personal opinion, yes, it is absolutely, absolutely the most worrying

765
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:37.599
<v Speaker 2>and our work as activists has never been more important

766
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.880
<v Speaker 2>in that regard, I would say, not that it hasn't

767
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:43.960
<v Speaker 2>been important before, but we are at a what I

768
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.079
<v Speaker 2>would consider to be a major, major, potential turning point,

769
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:50.320
<v Speaker 2>which is why I think we should raise the alarm bells.

770
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:52.199
<v Speaker 2>So you know, yeah, yeah, you know.

771
00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:54.920
<v Speaker 1>I have mentioned it on this show before, and I

772
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:57.440
<v Speaker 1>don't mean to repeat myself, and I hate thinking to

773
00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:01.239
<v Speaker 1>myself as any kind of alarmist. But when I became

774
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:05.599
<v Speaker 1>a gender and sexuality therapist here in Texas, I and

775
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:08.679
<v Speaker 1>I started my own business, you know, I was worried about,

776
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:12.320
<v Speaker 1>like my expenses and how do I advertise and getting referrals,

777
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:13.679
<v Speaker 1>and how do I have clients coming in and how

778
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:15.639
<v Speaker 1>do I make money? Like all of the things that

779
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:17.960
<v Speaker 1>you worry about when you're running a business. I did

780
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:21.000
<v Speaker 1>not have anywhere in my top ten things to be

781
00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:25.480
<v Speaker 1>concerned about all of my clients turning into political refugees

782
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:30.440
<v Speaker 1>and fleeing the state because of their increasing very legitimate

783
00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:34.800
<v Speaker 1>worries of the oppressive nature of our governance. And that

784
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:37.039
<v Speaker 1>is becoming like a major I hate to put it

785
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:40.360
<v Speaker 1>in business terms, but as that one metric, it's a

786
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:43.280
<v Speaker 1>major concern for like the long term viability of the

787
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:44.360
<v Speaker 1>work I'm trying to do here.

788
00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:49.920
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely in many, many, many different facets. That's true in immigration,

789
00:40:50.360 --> 00:40:54.360
<v Speaker 2>in social and political identity, and in schools as well.

790
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:57.199
<v Speaker 2>I mean we're talking, we're at like Scopes monkey trial

791
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:01.519
<v Speaker 2>level of importance right now, Supreme Court cases in my

792
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:05.559
<v Speaker 2>opinion when it comes to this stuff. And it's alarming

793
00:41:05.719 --> 00:41:09.199
<v Speaker 2>because we are both private citizens and you and I

794
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:14.599
<v Speaker 2>don't know any governors or you know, anything like that. Donors, yeah,

795
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:19.039
<v Speaker 2>our millionaire donors. Our influence only goes so far as

796
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:21.639
<v Speaker 2>to the people that listen to us. But I still

797
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:23.000
<v Speaker 2>try my best. I don't know, and I know you

798
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:24.920
<v Speaker 2>try to. So we're trying.

799
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:29.280
<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, let's let's keep trying. And on that note,

800
00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:33.079
<v Speaker 1>let's talk again to d in Iowa, who has some

801
00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:37.119
<v Speaker 1>concerns about Catholicism's role in our society. D what's on

802
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:37.519
<v Speaker 1>your mind?

803
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:43.079
<v Speaker 8>Christ I talk to you guys. So, yeah, kind of

804
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:48.800
<v Speaker 8>piggybacking on Jimmy Junior's intro today, honestly, the and I

805
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:54.159
<v Speaker 8>want to pivot slightly to kind of support Jesse's call

806
00:41:55.320 --> 00:42:01.880
<v Speaker 8>because he makes my point that cuts policism Tholicism as

807
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:06.880
<v Speaker 8>a cult, and it's actually a predatory cult because it appropriates,

808
00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:14.920
<v Speaker 8>and then destroys certain cultural beliefs, practices, religions. It's based

809
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:20.960
<v Speaker 8>on UH. It's its dogma, and its doctrines have come

810
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:28.880
<v Speaker 8>from appropriating pagan beliefs and celebrations and incorporating that into

811
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:35.119
<v Speaker 8>their into their belief and then proceeding to destroy them.

812
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:40.039
<v Speaker 8>And as they progressed through the world, as they progressed

813
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:45.679
<v Speaker 8>by by I think it wasn't it Constantine that converted

814
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:50.159
<v Speaker 8>and then started using the sword to spread They then

815
00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:58.039
<v Speaker 8>turned to UH funding through different kings and queens and.

816
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:02.559
<v Speaker 1>Kingdom just dragon hoarding in a lot of ways.

817
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:03.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

818
00:43:03.079 --> 00:43:07.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, so you'll definitely find no defense of Catholicism

819
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:11.480
<v Speaker 1>or the Roman Catholic Church here. But when you make

820
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:14.599
<v Speaker 1>it a point to refer to Catholicism as a cult,

821
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:17.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm really curious what that word means to you. You know,

822
00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:21.639
<v Speaker 1>I really appreciate Amanda Montell's perspective on all of this,

823
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:23.920
<v Speaker 1>when she writes about how the only difference between a

824
00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:27.320
<v Speaker 1>cult and a religion is the point of view, and

825
00:43:27.400 --> 00:43:29.760
<v Speaker 1>how pejorative you want to be about it. You know,

826
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:33.840
<v Speaker 1>working in religious trauma, I don't necessarily find like the

827
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:38.119
<v Speaker 1>bite model or any of these other distinctions between cult

828
00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:42.519
<v Speaker 1>and religion particularly useful. I find that cult is really

829
00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:46.039
<v Speaker 1>just a pejorative term for religion. And I'm, you know,

830
00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:48.280
<v Speaker 1>fine with that in the extent that I want to

831
00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:52.199
<v Speaker 1>be like rude about somebody else's belief systems. Obviously, I'm

832
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:57.119
<v Speaker 1>here promoting atheism and the critical thinking that I think

833
00:43:57.159 --> 00:44:01.599
<v Speaker 1>would tear down religious thought. But why use that particular term?

834
00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:03.960
<v Speaker 1>Why is that important to make that distinction here?

835
00:44:04.119 --> 00:44:10.400
<v Speaker 8>To me, a cult has it has many uh definitions, however,

836
00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:16.760
<v Speaker 8>and U and characteristics. My view of what a cult

837
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:24.679
<v Speaker 8>is is number one, the cult has bizarre belief system

838
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:30.199
<v Speaker 8>based on things that are by themselves would be maybe

839
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:36.239
<v Speaker 8>socially unacceptable, such as cannibalism and human sacrifice. And then

840
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:42.880
<v Speaker 8>the degree of control that it exerts over not only

841
00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:47.920
<v Speaker 8>its members but its environment. And I you know, I

842
00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:51.320
<v Speaker 8>wasn't going to go into a whole thing about you know,

843
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:53.719
<v Speaker 8>what cults are, how you can define them, how you

844
00:44:53.719 --> 00:44:58.440
<v Speaker 8>can move up. But I find two definitions because I

845
00:44:58.480 --> 00:44:59.719
<v Speaker 8>knew you would ask me that.

846
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:05.360
<v Speaker 1>Sure, we find, you know, truly bizarre beliefs in other

847
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:09.519
<v Speaker 1>forms of Christianity, in Buddhism, in Islam, and a lot

848
00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:12.960
<v Speaker 1>of religions that frankly don't have as many adherents as

849
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.760
<v Speaker 1>the Roman Catholic Church. Again, I am not trying to

850
00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:21.000
<v Speaker 1>come in in defense of the Roman Catholic Church. I've

851
00:45:21.079 --> 00:45:24.760
<v Speaker 1>spoken on this show recently about the pope election and

852
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:29.400
<v Speaker 1>how my concerns and feelings about that organization are definitely

853
00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:32.400
<v Speaker 1>already on the record. And I don't mean to pick

854
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:34.519
<v Speaker 1>on you for your language, but it seemed like such

855
00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:37.440
<v Speaker 1>an important crux of what it was that you came

856
00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:41.880
<v Speaker 1>here to share. And I'm interested in what makes you

857
00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:45.480
<v Speaker 1>maybe want to single out the Roman Catholic Church versus

858
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:49.760
<v Speaker 1>railing against Islam, versus railing against Buddhism or any of

859
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:54.519
<v Speaker 1>these other also very popular world religions or belief system.

860
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:56.639
<v Speaker 2>She might think those are cults too. I don't know.

861
00:45:56.679 --> 00:45:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Maybe it feels that way.

862
00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:04.920
<v Speaker 8>I single out Catholicism because I am more knowledgeable about

863
00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:11.400
<v Speaker 8>Catholicism than I am about Islam or Buddhism or any other,

864
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:14.880
<v Speaker 8>you know, established religion or belief system.

865
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:18.519
<v Speaker 1>I'll tell you, you get deep enough into Buddhism and

866
00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:22.760
<v Speaker 1>you start hearing some really weird stories, ye some things

867
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:24.559
<v Speaker 1>too true.

868
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:27.199
<v Speaker 8>And but you know, like I said, I don't. I

869
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:31.320
<v Speaker 8>don't know Islam, and while I have investigated Buddhism, I

870
00:46:31.880 --> 00:46:34.920
<v Speaker 8>found recently that I really don't know as much as

871
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:41.159
<v Speaker 8>I thought I did, and the Catholicism is responsible. They

872
00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:47.360
<v Speaker 8>piggyback themselves on the age of exploration and discovery with

873
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:53.480
<v Speaker 8>you know, the Spanish and English colonization. As Jesse said,

874
00:46:53.920 --> 00:47:02.599
<v Speaker 8>his ancestors were brutally exploited, convert by force. We know

875
00:47:02.679 --> 00:47:06.280
<v Speaker 8>that in the United States and in Canada, hundreds, if

876
00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:11.320
<v Speaker 8>not thousands of young Native Americans and Native Canadians were

877
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:19.519
<v Speaker 8>flaughtered at Catholic schools, abused at Catholic schools. So I

878
00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:23.559
<v Speaker 8>believe that the definitions of the cult that I laid

879
00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:28.760
<v Speaker 8>out earlier are very much so fulfilled by Catholic Church.

880
00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:32.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess my thing I would take with that

881
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:38.599
<v Speaker 2>is just because an organization abuses and exploits and colonializes

882
00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:41.280
<v Speaker 2>does it that itself doesn't make it a cult. We

883
00:47:41.320 --> 00:47:43.199
<v Speaker 2>would call the US a cult, although maybe the US

884
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:44.920
<v Speaker 2>is a call I don't know, but like a lot

885
00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.639
<v Speaker 2>of colonial powers would be called under that idea, I

886
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:50.840
<v Speaker 2>don't think. I don't think something has to be exploitative

887
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:54.199
<v Speaker 2>to be a cult either, you know, I just think

888
00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:57.159
<v Speaker 2>you just had you know, what Catholicism really does. Though,

889
00:47:57.239 --> 00:47:59.679
<v Speaker 2>what I do share your criticisms with is when you

890
00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:04.400
<v Speaker 2>define fin orthodoxy, you also define heterodoxy, right. In other words,

891
00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:08.000
<v Speaker 2>when you define what's okay and what's what's not. When

892
00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:10.480
<v Speaker 2>when you find what's okay, you're also defining what's not okay.

893
00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:14.000
<v Speaker 2>And the Catholic Church has been uh, you know, sort

894
00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:19.599
<v Speaker 2>of historical and their judgments on other cultures, other beliefs, systems,

895
00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:22.880
<v Speaker 2>other you know, ways of life that have been antithetical

896
00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:26.159
<v Speaker 2>to the powers that be for the Catholic Church, and

897
00:48:26.199 --> 00:48:30.960
<v Speaker 2>therefore they've sought their destruction, which is unfortunate and obviously terrible.

898
00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:33.000
<v Speaker 2>So I think we both take coverage with that.

899
00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:39.119
<v Speaker 8>I'm well aware that my language is harsh and controversial,

900
00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:45.199
<v Speaker 8>and I appreciate you guys's counterpoints, but I am unapologetic

901
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:48.320
<v Speaker 8>at this time, and until such time as this pope

902
00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:54.599
<v Speaker 8>causes a major shift in the general attitude of Catholicism,

903
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:58.519
<v Speaker 8>I will continue to refer to it as a culture.

904
00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:01.639
<v Speaker 1>No, No, that that's fairness doing that to be I'm not.

905
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:04.400
<v Speaker 8>I'm not doing that too. I'm not doing that for

906
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:09.840
<v Speaker 8>shock value. I'm not doing it for you know, sensationalism's sake.

907
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:13.039
<v Speaker 8>It's it's what I truly believe based on the history.

908
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:16.599
<v Speaker 8>And I just wanted to do say one other thing

909
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:20.519
<v Speaker 8>for Jesse while he was speaking, I did some googling

910
00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:27.480
<v Speaker 8>for Latino artists and I dropped some links in the

911
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:31.320
<v Speaker 8>chat for him to check out. I really appreciate his

912
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:37.880
<v Speaker 8>journey in claiming his ancestry and his identity. It really

913
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:42.280
<v Speaker 8>touched me deeply, and I hope that he continues to

914
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:44.880
<v Speaker 8>find a place where he feels he belongs.

915
00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so say we all.

916
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:52.199
<v Speaker 1>I definitely want to be on the favor of creating community.

917
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.719
<v Speaker 1>It was a religious trauma therapist, Yes, of course.

918
00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:56.760
<v Speaker 2>I spent a lot of.

919
00:49:56.719 --> 00:50:01.280
<v Speaker 1>Time helping people work through the the like I guess

920
00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:04.480
<v Speaker 1>we'll call positive traumas, or the experiences of bad things

921
00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:07.400
<v Speaker 1>happening to you, you know, having these beliefs shove down

922
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:11.519
<v Speaker 1>your throats, being criticized and hurt in these very specific ways.

923
00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:16.000
<v Speaker 1>But there's also the trauma of being removed from your community,

924
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:19.400
<v Speaker 1>being isolated from your community, and so many of the

925
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:22.079
<v Speaker 1>things that you lose when you walk away from religion.

926
00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:26.480
<v Speaker 1>And I think that there is remarkable value in recognizing

927
00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:30.480
<v Speaker 1>that loss walking away from religion may be additioned by subtraction,

928
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:32.920
<v Speaker 1>but it's still going to hurt, because you're losing a

929
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:36.599
<v Speaker 1>lot of valuable aspects of your day to day life.

930
00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:37.719
<v Speaker 2>And I hope.

931
00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:41.880
<v Speaker 1>That the atheism community recognizes that, or just really recognizes

932
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:45.159
<v Speaker 1>how important it is to have a community, whether it's

933
00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:49.400
<v Speaker 1>centered around atheism the way that this particular community is,

934
00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:52.960
<v Speaker 1>or whether it's centered around you know, RuPaul's drag Race

935
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:56.480
<v Speaker 1>or dungeons and Dragons or whatever the hell else. You

936
00:50:56.559 --> 00:51:00.280
<v Speaker 1>need friends in your life. Every good study on health

937
00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:03.440
<v Speaker 1>and well being in humans says that over and over

938
00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:07.280
<v Speaker 1>and over. So do we wish you the best? Jesse Again,

939
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:09.159
<v Speaker 1>We certainly wish you the best. And we hope that

940
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:12.360
<v Speaker 1>everybody listening feels like they have important people in their

941
00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:16.199
<v Speaker 1>lives that they can share the mundane and the you know, deep,

942
00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:17.800
<v Speaker 1>heady philosophical and.

943
00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:21.119
<v Speaker 8>I appreciate that you're there for those of us who

944
00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:27.360
<v Speaker 8>have lost community and friends and you know everything. It's

945
00:51:27.719 --> 00:51:34.159
<v Speaker 8>just awesome. And hopefully the clients of yours that have

946
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:38.360
<v Speaker 8>felt so unsafe that they had to leave the state,

947
00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:41.679
<v Speaker 8>I hope that they can that you can continue to

948
00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:47.679
<v Speaker 8>counsel them, possibly through you know, online and stuff like that,

949
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:53.079
<v Speaker 8>because you are really providing an invaluable service. So thank

950
00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:56.039
<v Speaker 8>you Christian. With that, I will jump off. I know

951
00:51:56.119 --> 00:51:57.960
<v Speaker 8>it takes a lot of time, so thank you.

952
00:51:58.199 --> 00:52:00.440
<v Speaker 1>No, I appreciate you saying so, thank you so much

953
00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:04.960
<v Speaker 1>for your call, and have a great Sunday afternoon. All right, Dan,

954
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:07.880
<v Speaker 1>I want to take a moment to thank our top

955
00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:10.159
<v Speaker 1>five patrons. I'm going to give you a second maybe

956
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:13.159
<v Speaker 1>to get some of our super chats pulled up as

957
00:52:13.159 --> 00:52:16.280
<v Speaker 1>we have more of those coming in. But first and

958
00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:19.840
<v Speaker 1>foremost our top five patrons this week number one Oops

959
00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:24.800
<v Speaker 1>All Singularity, number two Dingleberry Jackson, three Coleevi Helvetti for

960
00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Brian Zouopke, and in the fifth spot is Ja cal

961
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:33.360
<v Speaker 1>Carlton and our honorable mention this week, Diane Kerns. Thank

962
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:35.960
<v Speaker 1>thanks to each of you. Thanks to all of you

963
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:39.280
<v Speaker 1>who are part of supporting us on Patreon. If you're

964
00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:43.039
<v Speaker 1>interested in joining, that's a tiny dot cc slash Patreon

965
00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:47.440
<v Speaker 1>t H. And on that note, we have been recording

966
00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:51.119
<v Speaker 1>the TALKI than Discord after shows for all level of

967
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:54.840
<v Speaker 1>paid patrons, and so if you're looking for even more content,

968
00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:56.760
<v Speaker 1>even more conversations like this.

969
00:52:57.239 --> 00:52:59.880
<v Speaker 2>Please give that a try. Yeah, and we do have

970
00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:03.440
<v Speaker 2>super chats that these came quite earlier. I'm glad you

971
00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:05.440
<v Speaker 2>brought up because we should go ahead and read these.

972
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:08.719
<v Speaker 2>One from Miranda Ronsberger, a member of one year, gave

973
00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:11.360
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars and said, Happy Pride Month, all you heathens.

974
00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:14.599
<v Speaker 2>Don't let people get away with using their religion as

975
00:53:14.599 --> 00:53:16.880
<v Speaker 2>an excuse to hate or discriminate.

976
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:18.960
<v Speaker 1>That's not what religious freedom means.

977
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:21.440
<v Speaker 2>That's right, that's right. I co signed on that, Miranda,

978
00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:24.920
<v Speaker 2>and I don't know what this was in reference to,

979
00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:28.519
<v Speaker 2>but blind Blimey, a member of two years, gave five

980
00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:30.639
<v Speaker 2>dollars and said, Dan's right. I'm going to start my

981
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:35.400
<v Speaker 2>own ACA with blackjack and redacted. That's not the reacting things.

982
00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:41.239
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, No, you know, we're talking about forming community

983
00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:44.320
<v Speaker 1>and whatever you want to form that community around.

984
00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:49.360
<v Speaker 2>Right, Okay, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, blackjack and atheism. Yeah,

985
00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:51.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. It could be a thing I guess

986
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:52.519
<v Speaker 2>you wanted to be.

987
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:56.760
<v Speaker 1>You know, Well, we've got some other interesting callers on

988
00:53:56.800 --> 00:53:57.199
<v Speaker 1>the line.

989
00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Who do you want to roll the dice with? Ohtally,

990
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:07.119
<v Speaker 2>I want to roll the dice with, uh maybe gosh,

991
00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:08.679
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. What what do you want? Who do

992
00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:10.679
<v Speaker 2>you want to talk to this? I know you literally

993
00:54:10.719 --> 00:54:12.480
<v Speaker 2>just asked you that, but either one I could go

994
00:54:12.559 --> 00:54:15.280
<v Speaker 2>with that. I see here? Okay, Nick or Michelle?

995
00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:15.679
<v Speaker 6>You know?

996
00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:19.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, well let's do Nick in Massachusetts and

997
00:54:19.400 --> 00:54:24.559
<v Speaker 1>see what is on his mind today, Nick, Determination, predetermination,

998
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:26.719
<v Speaker 1>non determination? What you got for us?

999
00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:27.159
<v Speaker 6>Hi?

1000
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:32.440
<v Speaker 9>So I kind of wanted to get your guys's sort

1001
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:36.960
<v Speaker 9>of thoughts on what uh predetermined like a like a

1002
00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:42.920
<v Speaker 9>predetermined reality or not non determined non predetermined reality, or

1003
00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:47.400
<v Speaker 9>like the combination of the two, like what do you

1004
00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:50.519
<v Speaker 9>think we're living in? And what if like that has

1005
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:54.960
<v Speaker 9>any bearing or if it makes any claims, like like

1006
00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:58.480
<v Speaker 9>if it is a consequence of like making a statement

1007
00:54:58.519 --> 00:55:02.480
<v Speaker 9>on whether there's a Sang sing god or not, or

1008
00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:07.000
<v Speaker 9>maybe like a prime non sen Sien intelligence Like.

1009
00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:11.320
<v Speaker 1>I sure, well, let me just jump in and say yeah,

1010
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:13.920
<v Speaker 1>I'll go ahead and start by saying that, you know,

1011
00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:18.199
<v Speaker 1>whether this is all just causality that is, repercussions of

1012
00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:21.719
<v Speaker 1>the Big Bang and everything is predetermined, or whether there

1013
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:26.440
<v Speaker 1>is an actual random chance that's possible through quantum mechanics

1014
00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:29.679
<v Speaker 1>and our growing understanding of those things. I will admit

1015
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:32.119
<v Speaker 1>it's hard for me to find any room for free

1016
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:36.519
<v Speaker 1>will in either of those situations, and I definitely don't

1017
00:55:36.519 --> 00:55:41.159
<v Speaker 1>see any evidence for God in either perspective. Dan, what

1018
00:55:41.199 --> 00:55:42.400
<v Speaker 1>does any of this mean to you?

1019
00:55:42.760 --> 00:55:46.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm in the same boat as you, Chrisive. I think

1020
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:50.280
<v Speaker 2>people get confused because I do believe we live in

1021
00:55:50.320 --> 00:55:55.199
<v Speaker 2>a deterministic universe, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everything

1022
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:58.480
<v Speaker 2>is predetermined. I mean, if it is, then we certainly

1023
00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:00.840
<v Speaker 2>as humans don't know about it, right. We don't have

1024
00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:03.880
<v Speaker 2>all the information or variables to predict the things that

1025
00:56:03.920 --> 00:56:06.679
<v Speaker 2>we'd want to know exactly in our lives. So it's

1026
00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:08.880
<v Speaker 2>almost a point in a way. I think people kind

1027
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:12.840
<v Speaker 2>of overemphasize this, especially Christians who criticize our points. They're like, well,

1028
00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:15.400
<v Speaker 2>you just think everything like nothing matters because we don't

1029
00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:17.360
<v Speaker 2>have free will. And it's like, that doesn't mean that

1030
00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:21.159
<v Speaker 2>like we can't like interact with the world. It just

1031
00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:23.639
<v Speaker 2>means that there's determinists to play. It's it's a little

1032
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:24.519
<v Speaker 2>bit more complicated.

1033
00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:27.119
<v Speaker 1>I guess if it feels like I'm making a decision,

1034
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:30.559
<v Speaker 1>then as far as I'm concerned at the level of experience,

1035
00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:33.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm making a decision and make some good ones.

1036
00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:36.800
<v Speaker 2>Exactly and I and that's not me necessarily like promoting

1037
00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:39.119
<v Speaker 2>compatibilism in a way. I'm just saying it's it's a

1038
00:56:39.159 --> 00:56:41.400
<v Speaker 2>little bit more nuanced than what people give it credit

1039
00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:44.119
<v Speaker 2>for when we talk about this. But yeah, is a

1040
00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:47.840
<v Speaker 2>universe deterministic or does it? Is it made of determinist systems? Yeah?

1041
00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:49.199
<v Speaker 2>I think so. Yeah.

1042
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:51.840
<v Speaker 9>Like, So the reason why I asked that because like

1043
00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:56.159
<v Speaker 9>I feel like there's a comment like it's both things

1044
00:56:56.159 --> 00:57:00.679
<v Speaker 9>that are happening. Like there's a like, let's say there's

1045
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:04.400
<v Speaker 9>one hundred percent will because that by definition just like will,

1046
00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:07.960
<v Speaker 9>like like in terms of like there's like agentic will,

1047
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:12.199
<v Speaker 9>and then there's non agentic like predetermined just big bang

1048
00:57:12.519 --> 00:57:17.400
<v Speaker 9>force will. So like I feel like, you know, genetics

1049
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:21.519
<v Speaker 9>is more like there's a significant aspect of like molecular

1050
00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:25.119
<v Speaker 9>dynamics that is more on the side of like big

1051
00:57:25.159 --> 00:57:30.519
<v Speaker 9>bang force. And then you know, there's our experiential like

1052
00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:34.360
<v Speaker 9>day to day side of things where we're conscious of

1053
00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:39.199
<v Speaker 9>our experience and like having that feedback loop into our

1054
00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:43.840
<v Speaker 9>like like continuous decision making process. And I see in

1055
00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:47.400
<v Speaker 9>the fact that like when I dream, like when I'm dreaming,

1056
00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:51.000
<v Speaker 9>maybe you guys might relate to this my sense like

1057
00:57:51.159 --> 00:57:56.360
<v Speaker 9>I feel like an objective change in my ability to

1058
00:57:57.159 --> 00:58:01.239
<v Speaker 9>control my environment and myself, so like I can't when

1059
00:58:01.239 --> 00:58:06.360
<v Speaker 9>I'm dreaming. I can observe and feel like more creative

1060
00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:11.519
<v Speaker 9>control and like environmental control, but I lose the ability

1061
00:58:11.599 --> 00:58:16.079
<v Speaker 9>to like be feeling my body and being like one

1062
00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:20.199
<v Speaker 9>with my whole physical experience in the dream. So like

1063
00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:21.440
<v Speaker 9>there's like a change.

1064
00:58:21.559 --> 00:58:24.639
<v Speaker 1>I think we have to acknowledge that that experience is

1065
00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:29.480
<v Speaker 1>a subjective one, that there is no objective increase in control.

1066
00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:32.800
<v Speaker 1>If anything, Dreams are just an important reminder to me

1067
00:58:33.280 --> 00:58:36.719
<v Speaker 1>that we shape our own realities. But I'm struggling with

1068
00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:39.800
<v Speaker 1>how any of this gets us closer to or further

1069
00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:44.000
<v Speaker 1>away from free will and or the existence of a god.

1070
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:48.559
<v Speaker 9>Okay, So I think that it's like I don't for

1071
00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:51.360
<v Speaker 9>one thing, for like on the free will side, I

1072
00:58:51.400 --> 00:58:55.239
<v Speaker 9>don't think that anything has like total will. I think

1073
00:58:55.280 --> 00:59:01.679
<v Speaker 9>we have like partial will that doesn't necessarily like control

1074
00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:05.000
<v Speaker 9>any system completely.

1075
00:59:05.239 --> 00:59:08.639
<v Speaker 2>But uh yeah, I'd say about ten percent luck, twenty

1076
00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:12.800
<v Speaker 2>percent skill, fifteen percent concentrated power of will. Right, That's

1077
00:59:12.840 --> 00:59:15.360
<v Speaker 2>what I would say. Sorry, that's a bad joke.

1078
00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:18.679
<v Speaker 9>If no, no, I get it. Yeah, so and then

1079
00:59:18.800 --> 00:59:21.440
<v Speaker 9>so like what that has to say about like a

1080
00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:24.960
<v Speaker 9>god or like yeah, I mean I'm not sure because

1081
00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:28.119
<v Speaker 9>I feel like if you know, like what like if

1082
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:33.840
<v Speaker 9>we're there's like extra physical uh creator version of a

1083
00:59:33.880 --> 00:59:38.039
<v Speaker 9>god or there's like the pan theist uh just like

1084
00:59:38.519 --> 00:59:44.280
<v Speaker 9>latent energy space of like definition of a god. I

1085
00:59:44.320 --> 00:59:47.199
<v Speaker 9>mean if like I'm sort of like in the camp

1086
00:59:47.320 --> 00:59:50.280
<v Speaker 9>where you know, if I just go with with from

1087
00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:55.360
<v Speaker 9>what I'm seeing, like that is the universe. I think

1088
00:59:55.400 --> 01:00:00.079
<v Speaker 9>that there's like some cyclical aspect and like, but I

1089
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:05.039
<v Speaker 9>can't really explain like why anything exists besides like the

1090
01:00:05.239 --> 01:00:10.639
<v Speaker 9>necessity for like structural coherence, Like I feel like I

1091
01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:14.039
<v Speaker 9>can't really It's like it's like it's almost like the

1092
01:00:14.159 --> 01:00:14.840
<v Speaker 9>universe is.

1093
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:16.679
<v Speaker 2>Saying, uh, you don't.

1094
01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:21.159
<v Speaker 9>You can't have anything without an uncontrollable uh like a

1095
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:27.800
<v Speaker 9>completely uncontrollable force to drive the medium, like to drive

1096
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:35.320
<v Speaker 9>continuity forward for the non deterministic, nondetermined aspects of reality

1097
01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:36.400
<v Speaker 9>like for life.

1098
01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:39.159
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I mean, Nick, I recognize that these concepts

1099
01:00:39.199 --> 01:00:42.719
<v Speaker 1>are incredibly challenging and confusing in a lot of ways.

1100
01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:44.679
<v Speaker 1>And I don't mean to pick on you, but when

1101
01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:47.440
<v Speaker 1>you say that you don't know how to explain. I

1102
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:52.880
<v Speaker 1>do find myself this deep into the call really unclear

1103
01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:56.039
<v Speaker 1>on what it is that you were even attempting to explain.

1104
01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:59.119
<v Speaker 1>Can you help us a little bit, because I know

1105
01:00:59.679 --> 01:01:03.360
<v Speaker 1>one aspect of this type of philosophy is just how

1106
01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:06.360
<v Speaker 1>tempting it is to get overwhelmed by it and to

1107
01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:10.119
<v Speaker 1>maybe feel this like existential dread and then just kind

1108
01:01:10.119 --> 01:01:13.079
<v Speaker 1>of start grabbing things and shoving them together and putting

1109
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:15.519
<v Speaker 1>the word quantum in front of it and like trying

1110
01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:20.880
<v Speaker 1>to use it to justify some sort of worldview without

1111
01:01:20.920 --> 01:01:23.719
<v Speaker 1>having wrapped our head around each of the individual concepts.

1112
01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:26.239
<v Speaker 1>Can you break it down for me a little bit,

1113
01:01:26.320 --> 01:01:28.840
<v Speaker 1>or maybe even just bottom line it too. What does

1114
01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:29.719
<v Speaker 1>any of this mean?

1115
01:01:30.719 --> 01:01:30.920
<v Speaker 6>Well?

1116
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:35.760
<v Speaker 9>So, I think that if there's anything that like is

1117
01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:38.559
<v Speaker 9>pretty like like.

1118
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:40.760
<v Speaker 3>If anything is going to say.

1119
01:01:40.519 --> 01:01:43.719
<v Speaker 9>Anything about whether or not like a god exists, I

1120
01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:48.400
<v Speaker 9>think that like the fact that there's a like dead

1121
01:01:49.320 --> 01:01:53.639
<v Speaker 9>at like like non agentic aspects of reality and then

1122
01:01:53.880 --> 01:01:59.800
<v Speaker 9>agentic ones. I feel like that if anything would give

1123
01:01:59.880 --> 01:02:04.159
<v Speaker 9>up what's a clue about like the origins of the

1124
01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:05.639
<v Speaker 9>universe in life?

1125
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if we could ever separate them out though, yea, right, Like,

1126
01:02:10.719 --> 01:02:13.840
<v Speaker 1>how how do we know that we are being agentic

1127
01:02:13.880 --> 01:02:17.519
<v Speaker 1>in any meaningful way, or how that isn't just again

1128
01:02:17.599 --> 01:02:20.840
<v Speaker 1>another sequence of predetermined things like did I take a

1129
01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:23.559
<v Speaker 1>sip of water because I wanted to or did I

1130
01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:25.760
<v Speaker 1>take a sip of water because my throat was dry?

1131
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:29.360
<v Speaker 1>What the hell is the difference? And where does any

1132
01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:32.960
<v Speaker 1>of that Like if we could somehow separate these things

1133
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:36.639
<v Speaker 1>out too, am I truly making a choice? Or is

1134
01:02:36.679 --> 01:02:39.559
<v Speaker 1>the choice just predetermined by all of the other things

1135
01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:43.480
<v Speaker 1>that led up to that choice? Perhaps there could be

1136
01:02:43.559 --> 01:02:48.119
<v Speaker 1>some insight there into the choices that led to this

1137
01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:54.079
<v Speaker 1>universe existing. But I'm really struggling with like that idea

1138
01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:55.719
<v Speaker 1>that we could ever get there.

1139
01:02:55.760 --> 01:03:00.079
<v Speaker 9>Right, So do you think that we could there's like

1140
01:03:00.239 --> 01:03:06.840
<v Speaker 9>a mechanistic way to differentiate between like an agent and

1141
01:03:06.920 --> 01:03:08.440
<v Speaker 9>a non agent, not that I.

1142
01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:10.079
<v Speaker 1>Can understand or not that I'm aware of.

1143
01:03:10.599 --> 01:03:11.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't think so.

1144
01:03:12.039 --> 01:03:12.280
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

1145
01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:14.679
<v Speaker 2>You know, Like the thing with these is we have

1146
01:03:14.719 --> 01:03:16.480
<v Speaker 2>to ask ourselves could we have done different?

1147
01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:17.039
<v Speaker 3>Right?

1148
01:03:17.639 --> 01:03:20.440
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know how answerable of a question that

1149
01:03:20.480 --> 01:03:22.840
<v Speaker 2>even is. And when you bring gotten to the equation,

1150
01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:25.039
<v Speaker 2>if you ask could God have done different? If the

1151
01:03:25.079 --> 01:03:27.039
<v Speaker 2>answer to that is no, then that seems to be

1152
01:03:27.119 --> 01:03:31.480
<v Speaker 2>just as deterministic as anything else, right, So yeah, I

1153
01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:33.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know. This is this is one of the problems

1154
01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:36.320
<v Speaker 2>of our times that's even more situated with the rise

1155
01:03:36.360 --> 01:03:39.039
<v Speaker 2>of AI and whatnot. So yeah, I'm not gonna I'm

1156
01:03:39.079 --> 01:03:40.960
<v Speaker 2>not gonna be that guy that's gonna have all the

1157
01:03:41.000 --> 01:03:41.599
<v Speaker 2>answers for you.

1158
01:03:42.440 --> 01:03:43.280
<v Speaker 7>Yeah.

1159
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:43.559
<v Speaker 6>Uh yeah.

1160
01:03:43.599 --> 01:03:48.159
<v Speaker 9>I think like if we if we can, like the

1161
01:03:48.199 --> 01:03:51.119
<v Speaker 9>way that I know, we haven't like explained about a

1162
01:03:51.159 --> 01:03:55.440
<v Speaker 9>genesis yet, like we haven't like come together completely in

1163
01:03:55.480 --> 01:04:01.000
<v Speaker 9>the scientific community to like fully like mechanistically explain biogenesis.

1164
01:04:01.159 --> 01:04:03.800
<v Speaker 9>But I think, like if I go on like my

1165
01:04:04.079 --> 01:04:09.280
<v Speaker 9>hunch about like what it's gonna involve, like in the explanation,

1166
01:04:09.599 --> 01:04:13.000
<v Speaker 9>if when we get there, it's like whatever, the initial

1167
01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:15.679
<v Speaker 9>conditions are, like whatever it led up to, the initial

1168
01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:20.079
<v Speaker 9>conditions for like the formation event is whatever. But like

1169
01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:24.760
<v Speaker 9>the formation event sort of would necessitate like like weightless

1170
01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:29.159
<v Speaker 9>a weightless environment or like a near weightless environment inside

1171
01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:34.199
<v Speaker 9>an encapsulation like an encapsulated barrier. I feel like the

1172
01:04:34.519 --> 01:04:39.239
<v Speaker 9>weightlessness is sort of like homeostatic in and for me,

1173
01:04:39.639 --> 01:04:44.679
<v Speaker 9>what that like It's like an environment that like reduces

1174
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:50.159
<v Speaker 9>the styles uh like of scope of like of locality

1175
01:04:50.360 --> 01:04:56.519
<v Speaker 9>for non deterministic events to happen. So it's just like,

1176
01:04:57.239 --> 01:05:00.480
<v Speaker 9>I don't know there's some power in weightlessness that I

1177
01:05:00.519 --> 01:05:04.000
<v Speaker 9>can't really fully COMPREHENDI.

1178
01:05:03.599 --> 01:05:08.039
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if weightlessness is necessary for a biogenesis.

1179
01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:11.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't know that we know what is necessary for

1180
01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:15.639
<v Speaker 1>a biogenesis. And I definitely don't know that I am

1181
01:05:15.719 --> 01:05:19.280
<v Speaker 1>following where you get your hunch from or why that's

1182
01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:23.000
<v Speaker 1>necessarily compelling. I think the last thing I would really

1183
01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:25.280
<v Speaker 1>say about any of this, nick is just from the

1184
01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:31.000
<v Speaker 1>perspective of the very applied philosophy of clinical counseling, is

1185
01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:34.599
<v Speaker 1>I would say that, yeah, it's probably likely true that

1186
01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:38.800
<v Speaker 1>we aren't making these choices, except that we are just

1187
01:05:39.039 --> 01:05:42.559
<v Speaker 1>following a series of choices that have already been made.

1188
01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:45.400
<v Speaker 1>Or maybe they're not even choices, maybe they are just

1189
01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:50.559
<v Speaker 1>things that happen. And part of that still empowers us

1190
01:05:50.840 --> 01:05:53.719
<v Speaker 1>to be introspective about who we are as people and

1191
01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:55.800
<v Speaker 1>what we want out of life and what we want

1192
01:05:55.840 --> 01:05:58.599
<v Speaker 1>to do about any of it. None of it gives

1193
01:05:58.679 --> 01:06:03.519
<v Speaker 1>us the ability to forecasts or or understand things that

1194
01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:07.519
<v Speaker 1>we simply don't understand, and it doesn't make the existential

1195
01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:11.079
<v Speaker 1>void of is there a God, or why are we

1196
01:06:11.280 --> 01:06:14.079
<v Speaker 1>here or why do we exist? Any different?

1197
01:06:14.280 --> 01:06:14.559
<v Speaker 8>Yeah?

1198
01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:19.480
<v Speaker 9>Yeah, with regards of the like determinism thing like, for example,

1199
01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:23.119
<v Speaker 9>I can't transform into a dragon right now. I can,

1200
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:28.280
<v Speaker 9>you know, feel like I really want to, and I

1201
01:06:28.320 --> 01:06:32.719
<v Speaker 9>can maybe try to change how much harder I feel

1202
01:06:33.039 --> 01:06:35.199
<v Speaker 9>that I want to change into a dragon, But like

1203
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:40.920
<v Speaker 9>the mechanistic scope of like possibility isn't there, Like it's

1204
01:06:40.960 --> 01:06:45.840
<v Speaker 9>not physically possible, But then there's like physically possible, there's

1205
01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:50.280
<v Speaker 9>like the physically possible scope of things that can happen

1206
01:06:50.519 --> 01:06:54.360
<v Speaker 9>from whatever the now is. And if we have like

1207
01:06:55.039 --> 01:07:00.480
<v Speaker 9>a coherent understanding of like those option like options, different

1208
01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:04.840
<v Speaker 9>options in that scope, and we're aware of that, I

1209
01:07:04.880 --> 01:07:08.320
<v Speaker 9>feel like that's the indicative of like will.

1210
01:07:08.599 --> 01:07:09.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm not I.

1211
01:07:09.719 --> 01:07:16.280
<v Speaker 9>Wouldn't say that it's like evidentiary of like like free

1212
01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:19.440
<v Speaker 9>reign type of will, but I would.

1213
01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:20.119
<v Speaker 6>I don't know.

1214
01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:23.440
<v Speaker 1>You're still assuming that it is impossible for you to

1215
01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:26.519
<v Speaker 1>transform into a dragon, but it is possible to do

1216
01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:29.639
<v Speaker 1>all of these other things. And I guess I'm just

1217
01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:33.000
<v Speaker 1>not there yet. I'm not convinced that just because we

1218
01:07:33.039 --> 01:07:36.880
<v Speaker 1>haven't seen something doesn't mean that it can't theoretically be possible,

1219
01:07:37.559 --> 01:07:40.639
<v Speaker 1>but I'm not sure how much further we can get

1220
01:07:40.679 --> 01:07:43.679
<v Speaker 1>in all of this, and so much of it is conjecture, Dan,

1221
01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:45.719
<v Speaker 1>or are you comfortable with leaving it there? I think

1222
01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:46.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm good leave it there.

1223
01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:49.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean, look, at this point in the process, you

1224
01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:51.480
<v Speaker 2>want to refer to the people who have written whole

1225
01:07:51.480 --> 01:07:54.320
<v Speaker 2>books about this stuff that have way to define terms,

1226
01:07:54.679 --> 01:07:58.960
<v Speaker 2>have way better concise explanations about the things that we're

1227
01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:02.159
<v Speaker 2>going into here, because ultimately you and I are layman's

1228
01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:04.679
<v Speaker 2>on this subject, and we can give our perspectives, and

1229
01:08:04.719 --> 01:08:06.159
<v Speaker 2>I think that's about as far as we can go,

1230
01:08:06.360 --> 01:08:06.639
<v Speaker 2>you know.

1231
01:08:07.079 --> 01:08:12.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, to that end, I personally enjoyed Determined by Robert Sapalski. Dan,

1232
01:08:12.519 --> 01:08:15.679
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you co signed that one, but yeah,

1233
01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:18.920
<v Speaker 1>keep reading and Nick, we really appreciate you giving it

1234
01:08:18.920 --> 01:08:19.880
<v Speaker 1>a try with us, and give it.

1235
01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:22.520
<v Speaker 2>Us a call all ready? Thank you have it right day?

1236
01:08:23.039 --> 01:08:23.560
<v Speaker 2>All right?

1237
01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:27.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let's sneak in one more quick call before we

1238
01:08:27.640 --> 01:08:30.840
<v Speaker 1>start to wrap up today and hear from Michelle. I

1239
01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:33.239
<v Speaker 1>know that Michelle has been waiting for a good long while.

1240
01:08:33.600 --> 01:08:35.279
<v Speaker 1>So what's on your mind today, Michelle?

1241
01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:39.319
<v Speaker 6>Well, I was thinking throughout the calls, and I thought

1242
01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:42.399
<v Speaker 6>that I would rephrase my question. The way I had

1243
01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:50.359
<v Speaker 6>it phrased was does gepticism presuppose belief or end or faith? However,

1244
01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:53.079
<v Speaker 6>I thought that that would put me in a rock

1245
01:08:53.199 --> 01:08:56.359
<v Speaker 6>and a hard space to prove, because the way I

1246
01:08:56.520 --> 01:09:01.640
<v Speaker 6>have it understood that presupposition will argue men's work. Is

1247
01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:04.680
<v Speaker 6>that the thing like, if I would say, well, does

1248
01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:08.600
<v Speaker 6>does does skepticism pretty supposed to believe? That would mean

1249
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:11.520
<v Speaker 6>I was saying that you start with belief, and that's

1250
01:09:11.560 --> 01:09:15.880
<v Speaker 6>the ground that would be the ground for the skepticism. However,

1251
01:09:16.039 --> 01:09:19.479
<v Speaker 6>I want to change that around and say does skepticism?

1252
01:09:19.720 --> 01:09:22.319
<v Speaker 6>Must there be a sense of a sense of belief

1253
01:09:22.720 --> 01:09:27.560
<v Speaker 6>with our skepticism? Must we always be mixing our skepticism

1254
01:09:27.840 --> 01:09:30.800
<v Speaker 6>with the question of like, hey, does God exist?

1255
01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:31.279
<v Speaker 7>Maybe?

1256
01:09:31.479 --> 01:09:33.800
<v Speaker 6>Does do pixie do? Pixie?

1257
01:09:33.800 --> 01:09:34.159
<v Speaker 2>Parting?

1258
01:09:34.880 --> 01:09:35.279
<v Speaker 6>Universe?

1259
01:09:35.479 --> 01:09:36.520
<v Speaker 3>Arting pixies is good?

1260
01:09:37.399 --> 01:09:44.560
<v Speaker 6>Anything like supernatural spirit goes after life, anything of the sort, aliens, exterterrestrials.

1261
01:09:44.680 --> 01:09:47.640
<v Speaker 6>Can we say that anything of the sort exists? Should we?

1262
01:09:47.800 --> 01:09:51.079
<v Speaker 6>Should we at least dare to say maybe? Or gee?

1263
01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:52.439
<v Speaker 2>Kind of like that?

1264
01:09:52.600 --> 01:09:55.640
<v Speaker 1>Go I'm not sure I follow the question?

1265
01:09:55.680 --> 01:09:58.159
<v Speaker 2>How about you? Yeah, Well, you started off with an

1266
01:09:58.199 --> 01:10:03.840
<v Speaker 2>interesting question which was does skepticism presupposed beliefs? That's a

1267
01:10:04.039 --> 01:10:06.199
<v Speaker 2>that's a very interesting question. But then you said you

1268
01:10:06.199 --> 01:10:08.680
<v Speaker 2>want to change your question, and I'm not sure what

1269
01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:11.479
<v Speaker 2>the changed question was. Can you give us, like one

1270
01:10:11.560 --> 01:10:13.960
<v Speaker 2>sentence version of what the change question is?

1271
01:10:14.479 --> 01:10:17.159
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, tell me, Dan, maybe you could tell me?

1272
01:10:17.800 --> 01:10:18.439
<v Speaker 2>Do I like?

1273
01:10:18.680 --> 01:10:21.680
<v Speaker 6>Am I wrong when I say that if my question

1274
01:10:21.880 --> 01:10:26.920
<v Speaker 6>is does pre does skepticism presupposed belief? Am I wrong

1275
01:10:27.039 --> 01:10:31.119
<v Speaker 6>to say that? By saying that, I mean that we

1276
01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:35.920
<v Speaker 6>must believe first in something supernatural let's say, for example,

1277
01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:38.960
<v Speaker 6>and then we must be doubtful. Or can we just

1278
01:10:39.000 --> 01:10:42.159
<v Speaker 6>say we take a belief in skepticism at the same

1279
01:10:42.239 --> 01:10:44.680
<v Speaker 6>time and we're all the better for it, You know

1280
01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:46.039
<v Speaker 6>what I mean? You know I'm getting that now.

1281
01:10:46.359 --> 01:10:51.159
<v Speaker 1>I think skepticism is just the degree of maybe humility

1282
01:10:51.479 --> 01:10:53.119
<v Speaker 1>with which we hold a belief.

1283
01:10:53.920 --> 01:10:58.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's different perspectives, because philosophy is a wide ranging field,

1284
01:10:58.640 --> 01:11:00.880
<v Speaker 2>and they have different ideas and diferent perspectives on what

1285
01:11:00.920 --> 01:11:03.640
<v Speaker 2>skepticism is. Interestingly, though, there is a line of thought

1286
01:11:03.680 --> 01:11:08.399
<v Speaker 2>that says skepticism is a materialist perspective, right, And what

1287
01:11:08.439 --> 01:11:11.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean by that is the suspension of this belief right,

1288
01:11:12.039 --> 01:11:17.560
<v Speaker 2>or the suspension of belief in particular claims. Generally, generally,

1289
01:11:17.600 --> 01:11:21.399
<v Speaker 2>the trend is it comes from some line of observation,

1290
01:11:21.640 --> 01:11:25.199
<v Speaker 2>whether it's through logical reasoning or in more recent years,

1291
01:11:25.239 --> 01:11:30.039
<v Speaker 2>through scientific observation. That's very interesting, right, because there is

1292
01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:33.119
<v Speaker 2>a trust there that's inherent to the scientific method in

1293
01:11:33.239 --> 01:11:36.760
<v Speaker 2>understanding whether things are true or not. So in one sense,

1294
01:11:36.800 --> 01:11:39.680
<v Speaker 2>you could say there's a presupposition there, but that's only

1295
01:11:39.720 --> 01:11:42.399
<v Speaker 2>if you hold the scientific method to be a reliable

1296
01:11:42.520 --> 01:11:46.159
<v Speaker 2>arbiter of what's true. Maybe you have skepticism, but you're

1297
01:11:46.199 --> 01:11:50.439
<v Speaker 2>from a maybe you're a psychic or a believer, and

1298
01:11:50.479 --> 01:11:53.760
<v Speaker 2>you're skeptical of people who say that being psychic stuff

1299
01:11:53.800 --> 01:11:56.079
<v Speaker 2>isn't real. You know, it kind of cuts both ways

1300
01:11:56.119 --> 01:11:58.840
<v Speaker 2>in that sense. So there's very specific context in which

1301
01:11:58.880 --> 01:12:01.760
<v Speaker 2>we use the word skeptics, or which skepticism has used

1302
01:12:01.840 --> 01:12:04.720
<v Speaker 2>in philosophy there. So I guess, like many answers, it

1303
01:12:04.840 --> 01:12:07.159
<v Speaker 2>kind of depends. But I don't think you'd necessarily be

1304
01:12:07.199 --> 01:12:11.039
<v Speaker 2>wrong in saying it could presuppose belief. It just again,

1305
01:12:11.279 --> 01:12:13.159
<v Speaker 2>really depends on how you're defining that.

1306
01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:13.880
<v Speaker 1>I guess.

1307
01:12:14.119 --> 01:12:17.000
<v Speaker 6>I guess right now, can we move into maybe really

1308
01:12:17.079 --> 01:12:20.920
<v Speaker 6>quickly defining belief and faith and maybe and then move

1309
01:12:20.960 --> 01:12:24.960
<v Speaker 6>it back to skepticism because for me, I can believe,

1310
01:12:25.239 --> 01:12:29.039
<v Speaker 6>for example, like for me, belief involves a certain amount

1311
01:12:29.279 --> 01:12:34.199
<v Speaker 6>of certainty about something. For me, I can believe that

1312
01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:37.520
<v Speaker 6>if I go to my refriger right now, refrigerator right now,

1313
01:12:37.680 --> 01:12:40.159
<v Speaker 6>that there might be a soda pop in there waiting

1314
01:12:40.239 --> 01:12:42.560
<v Speaker 6>for me. You know, maybe I put one in there

1315
01:12:42.640 --> 01:12:45.319
<v Speaker 6>the other day and I forgot about it, and maybe like, oh,

1316
01:12:45.359 --> 01:12:47.600
<v Speaker 6>it's in there. Maybe it's not to someone drank it

1317
01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:50.720
<v Speaker 6>on me. Or I can have faith that it's in there.

1318
01:12:50.840 --> 01:12:53.520
<v Speaker 6>I have no evidence whatsoever. I didn't put it in there.

1319
01:12:53.560 --> 01:12:56.319
<v Speaker 6>I don't remember putting in there. Maybe I'm going on

1320
01:12:56.399 --> 01:12:58.439
<v Speaker 6>faith that maybe someone put one in there for me

1321
01:12:58.520 --> 01:13:01.119
<v Speaker 6>and it's cold, just waiting for me. But I have

1322
01:13:01.279 --> 01:13:04.479
<v Speaker 6>no evidence whatsoever. But I can hope. That's faith when

1323
01:13:04.520 --> 01:13:08.039
<v Speaker 6>you have no evidence to promote or give you any

1324
01:13:08.600 --> 01:13:12.399
<v Speaker 6>or to give you anything to bounce back to belief on,

1325
01:13:12.640 --> 01:13:15.159
<v Speaker 6>you know what I mean. Yeah, So, and then and

1326
01:13:15.199 --> 01:13:18.640
<v Speaker 6>then we move back to skepticism and we judge our beliefs.

1327
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:21.760
<v Speaker 6>We move back into skepticism, and then we say, well,

1328
01:13:22.279 --> 01:13:25.479
<v Speaker 6>here's here's where I'm skeptical about this phase part of

1329
01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:28.439
<v Speaker 6>the thing, and when I'm believing, and then here's my

1330
01:13:28.520 --> 01:13:30.199
<v Speaker 6>skepticism about my belief.

1331
01:13:30.399 --> 01:13:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's no necessarily wrong answers here,

1332
01:13:34.239 --> 01:13:38.720
<v Speaker 2>because belief has been defined in various capacities. If you notice,

1333
01:13:38.800 --> 01:13:42.000
<v Speaker 2>when Christy and I talked to particularly theists, we are

1334
01:13:42.359 --> 01:13:44.479
<v Speaker 2>usually going to be the first ones to ask, what

1335
01:13:44.520 --> 01:13:46.560
<v Speaker 2>do you mean by faith? What do you mean by

1336
01:13:46.600 --> 01:13:49.640
<v Speaker 2>a belief right? Because that's always going to be rooted

1337
01:13:49.920 --> 01:13:53.039
<v Speaker 2>in individual perspectives. I mean, Christian and I may have

1338
01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:57.800
<v Speaker 2>much more define, more rigorous ideas of that, but on

1339
01:13:57.960 --> 01:14:00.920
<v Speaker 2>the man on the street kind of person, maybe right,

1340
01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:02.640
<v Speaker 2>and it may take a bit to tease that out.

1341
01:14:02.680 --> 01:14:05.000
<v Speaker 2>So like belief to me is more like an attitude

1342
01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:11.319
<v Speaker 2>about something right. So I acknowledge the subjective, inherent perspectivism

1343
01:14:11.359 --> 01:14:14.640
<v Speaker 2>that comes with a belief. I might define knowledge as

1344
01:14:14.680 --> 01:14:18.600
<v Speaker 2>a justified true belief, but even then there's problems with

1345
01:14:19.000 --> 01:14:21.760
<v Speaker 2>how you consider something to be a justified true belief,

1346
01:14:21.880 --> 01:14:25.319
<v Speaker 2>very very famously gettier problems and whatnot that come with

1347
01:14:26.119 --> 01:14:28.079
<v Speaker 2>that kind of philosophy. So I'm not going to say

1348
01:14:28.119 --> 01:14:31.239
<v Speaker 2>you're wrong on your definition there, Michelle. In fact, I

1349
01:14:31.239 --> 01:14:34.199
<v Speaker 2>think that's a pretty well thought out answer, because I

1350
01:14:34.199 --> 01:14:35.720
<v Speaker 2>don't think there is going to be one answer to

1351
01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:37.479
<v Speaker 2>this question. I think it's going to be based on

1352
01:14:37.520 --> 01:14:39.439
<v Speaker 2>the individual. But what do you think, Christy?

1353
01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:41.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, and it really is, like you said, more of

1354
01:14:41.880 --> 01:14:45.439
<v Speaker 1>a question of linguistics than philosophy at this stage in

1355
01:14:45.479 --> 01:14:48.720
<v Speaker 1>the game, Like how do we define belief absence of

1356
01:14:48.760 --> 01:14:54.079
<v Speaker 1>skepticism or vice versa. I, you know, I'm fine with

1357
01:14:54.520 --> 01:14:56.720
<v Speaker 1>some of the definitions that we've come up with. I

1358
01:14:56.760 --> 01:14:59.720
<v Speaker 1>don't know how functional all of this is when we

1359
01:14:59.720 --> 01:15:02.720
<v Speaker 1>act start to talk to people about what it is that.

1360
01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:04.079
<v Speaker 2>They believe and why.

1361
01:15:04.920 --> 01:15:07.960
<v Speaker 1>And I, you know, I'm not necessarily somebody who holds

1362
01:15:08.039 --> 01:15:11.560
<v Speaker 1>up skepticism as a incredible virtue. I know that that's

1363
01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:15.439
<v Speaker 1>a common talking point in this community. And I think

1364
01:15:15.560 --> 01:15:19.479
<v Speaker 1>that I'll stick with my sort of earlier definition of humility.

1365
01:15:19.680 --> 01:15:22.000
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's just about holding the beliefs that we

1366
01:15:22.119 --> 01:15:25.920
<v Speaker 1>hold with a certain amount of hesitation or a certain

1367
01:15:25.960 --> 01:15:29.760
<v Speaker 1>amount of humility about their certainty and their assuredness.

1368
01:15:30.039 --> 01:15:32.680
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, if I may give an example, a brief example,

1369
01:15:33.560 --> 01:15:35.560
<v Speaker 6>I kind of like to think about it. Well, I'm

1370
01:15:35.600 --> 01:15:39.359
<v Speaker 6>certain and I am a gnostic about the fact that

1371
01:15:39.439 --> 01:15:42.079
<v Speaker 6>if I jump out of a plane at thirty thousand

1372
01:15:42.079 --> 01:15:45.039
<v Speaker 6>feet in the air without a parachute on either a

1373
01:15:45.359 --> 01:15:47.560
<v Speaker 6>I'm going to break every bone in my body and

1374
01:15:48.119 --> 01:15:52.840
<v Speaker 6>somehow contradictor to ely survive that accident, or I'm going

1375
01:15:52.880 --> 01:15:55.560
<v Speaker 6>to die. I'm a gnostic about those facts. Those are facts,

1376
01:15:55.600 --> 01:15:59.239
<v Speaker 6>but the true fact I am, not, however, confident or

1377
01:15:59.279 --> 01:16:02.399
<v Speaker 6>have the conviction enough to say or an astic enough

1378
01:16:02.399 --> 01:16:04.760
<v Speaker 6>to say that I know that God exists, that I'm

1379
01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:07.439
<v Speaker 6>going to live internally in a sola the kingdom that

1380
01:16:07.479 --> 01:16:09.279
<v Speaker 6>I don't want to forever.

1381
01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:12.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is.

1382
01:16:12.079 --> 01:16:13.960
<v Speaker 6>How is that for an example?

1383
01:16:14.119 --> 01:16:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, this is the this is the problem of atheist

1384
01:16:16.960 --> 01:16:20.199
<v Speaker 2>uh atheist activism as a whole. We're always going to

1385
01:16:20.239 --> 01:16:21.920
<v Speaker 2>be on the back foot when it comes to this,

1386
01:16:22.239 --> 01:16:26.159
<v Speaker 2>right because there's a million God beliefs and there's only

1387
01:16:26.199 --> 01:16:29.319
<v Speaker 2>one of us. And and the way that we even

1388
01:16:29.399 --> 01:16:35.000
<v Speaker 2>define our our atheism is contentious. There's different ideas about this.

1389
01:16:35.039 --> 01:16:38.119
<v Speaker 2>Should we define it as a positive claim or should

1390
01:16:38.199 --> 01:16:41.439
<v Speaker 2>we define it as a lack of belief. There's there's

1391
01:16:41.479 --> 01:16:45.479
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of different conversations about this, and and I

1392
01:16:45.520 --> 01:16:47.399
<v Speaker 2>think that that nuance gets lost on a lot of

1393
01:16:47.439 --> 01:16:49.520
<v Speaker 2>people because it's it's just not it doesn't come up

1394
01:16:49.560 --> 01:16:52.560
<v Speaker 2>in carmon conversation. I certainly wasn't taught about the nuances

1395
01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:54.960
<v Speaker 2>of the atheist position when I was a Christian, Okay,

1396
01:16:55.000 --> 01:16:58.600
<v Speaker 2>So you know, there's there's always going to be different

1397
01:16:58.720 --> 01:17:00.880
<v Speaker 2>ideas to this. But you know how I like to

1398
01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:04.399
<v Speaker 2>look at it is I have a lot of different

1399
01:17:04.439 --> 01:17:08.399
<v Speaker 2>ideas that I've encountered about God in particular, and I

1400
01:17:08.439 --> 01:17:13.840
<v Speaker 2>do reject openly some of these ideas. I'm not conclusive

1401
01:17:13.880 --> 01:17:17.680
<v Speaker 2>about some ideas, like a God that is completely outside

1402
01:17:17.720 --> 01:17:20.119
<v Speaker 2>of the known material universe. Sure, how can I know

1403
01:17:20.520 --> 01:17:23.239
<v Speaker 2>about the existence of one or not? I can be

1404
01:17:23.279 --> 01:17:25.880
<v Speaker 2>agnostic about that. But you know, as far as the

1405
01:17:26.560 --> 01:17:31.479
<v Speaker 2>Yahweh of the Bible, of the semic tribes, you know, yeah,

1406
01:17:31.520 --> 01:17:34.159
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that that one's going to be it chief,

1407
01:17:34.199 --> 01:17:36.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that one's real. So, you know, like

1408
01:17:36.119 --> 01:17:38.560
<v Speaker 2>that's my take on a lot of this, But I

1409
01:17:38.600 --> 01:17:41.640
<v Speaker 2>can only say that in so many words, right, And

1410
01:17:41.720 --> 01:17:43.920
<v Speaker 2>it's hard to sort of give that kind of nuance

1411
01:17:44.159 --> 01:17:46.399
<v Speaker 2>when talking to people about this, which is why many

1412
01:17:46.399 --> 01:17:49.199
<v Speaker 2>people are confused about the atheist position, what it actually

1413
01:17:49.399 --> 01:17:52.079
<v Speaker 2>means or what it means to most people, right right.

1414
01:17:52.159 --> 01:17:55.319
<v Speaker 6>Dan, if I may ask really quickly before we end

1415
01:17:55.520 --> 01:17:58.319
<v Speaker 6>in the call, I think and this is a great

1416
01:17:58.359 --> 01:18:01.319
<v Speaker 6>suggestion because I one thing that I've watched a lot

1417
01:18:01.359 --> 01:18:04.119
<v Speaker 6>of the shows on this line and some others on

1418
01:18:04.239 --> 01:18:07.479
<v Speaker 6>the ACA and some other abist call and shows. ACA

1419
01:18:07.600 --> 01:18:11.359
<v Speaker 6>is the best, of course on on on TV. But

1420
01:18:12.399 --> 01:18:16.680
<v Speaker 6>I think you guys should have someone on that believes

1421
01:18:16.880 --> 01:18:20.399
<v Speaker 6>lightly at least in a creator being an interview them

1422
01:18:20.600 --> 01:18:23.039
<v Speaker 6>and take calls with them, and they actually have them

1423
01:18:23.079 --> 01:18:24.680
<v Speaker 6>answer calls with you guys.

1424
01:18:24.800 --> 01:18:27.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean I do do that untruth wanted from time

1425
01:18:27.199 --> 01:18:30.920
<v Speaker 2>to time. Yeah, my last Christian guest was on a

1426
01:18:30.960 --> 01:18:31.640
<v Speaker 2>couple of months.

1427
01:18:31.479 --> 01:18:36.159
<v Speaker 1>Ago, things along those lines. But yeah, yeah, So if

1428
01:18:36.159 --> 01:18:38.880
<v Speaker 1>you have somebody in mind, if there's a particular person

1429
01:18:38.920 --> 01:18:41.920
<v Speaker 1>you want to recommend, we're always taking those recommendations. I mean,

1430
01:18:41.960 --> 01:18:45.359
<v Speaker 1>shoot us an email TV at Atheist hipeencommunity dot org

1431
01:18:45.600 --> 01:18:48.319
<v Speaker 1>there's somebody who's interested in talking to us. You know,

1432
01:18:48.399 --> 01:18:50.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to guarantee an interview to anybody, but

1433
01:18:50.760 --> 01:18:52.960
<v Speaker 1>I know our producers would be interested to speak to them.

1434
01:18:53.119 --> 01:18:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I'm proud to say that I host the only

1435
01:18:55.600 --> 01:18:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Atheist Community of Austin show that has had openly theist

1436
01:18:59.560 --> 01:19:02.439
<v Speaker 2>people on as as guests, not just as callers.

1437
01:19:02.560 --> 01:19:08.399
<v Speaker 1>Only currently running shows, only currently running, only currently Well again, yeah,

1438
01:19:08.399 --> 01:19:09.479
<v Speaker 1>that's true, that's true.

1439
01:19:09.479 --> 01:19:11.319
<v Speaker 2>I should Yeah, you're right, I should clarify on that.

1440
01:19:11.399 --> 01:19:14.000
<v Speaker 2>But you know it has I'll be honest. It's hard

1441
01:19:14.039 --> 01:19:18.119
<v Speaker 2>to find people, Michelle that can still vibe with us

1442
01:19:18.239 --> 01:19:20.079
<v Speaker 2>enough that we can make it an hour and a

1443
01:19:20.119 --> 01:19:23.399
<v Speaker 2>half without it turning into a ship show. Right, So

1444
01:19:23.920 --> 01:19:26.239
<v Speaker 2>there's a give and take with that, and some people

1445
01:19:26.279 --> 01:19:27.880
<v Speaker 2>don't even like it when we do it, by the way,

1446
01:19:28.720 --> 01:19:31.199
<v Speaker 2>but I think those end up being some of the

1447
01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:34.680
<v Speaker 2>most interesting content that we produce. But that's my take, Dan.

1448
01:19:34.840 --> 01:19:36.920
<v Speaker 6>I think I could. I think I could body with

1449
01:19:37.000 --> 01:19:39.439
<v Speaker 6>you guys if you would just have beyond.

1450
01:19:40.079 --> 01:19:42.359
<v Speaker 2>Oh come on, Michelle, you can't, you can't. You can't

1451
01:19:42.359 --> 01:19:46.880
<v Speaker 2>do this. You can't. Don't. Don't beg for the spot process.

1452
01:19:47.039 --> 01:19:48.720
<v Speaker 2>It's a thing, a show.

1453
01:19:48.880 --> 01:19:50.279
<v Speaker 1>You appreciate your phone call.

1454
01:19:51.239 --> 01:19:54.359
<v Speaker 6>I'm getting people in chat. You know, I'm not watching

1455
01:19:54.439 --> 01:19:56.760
<v Speaker 6>the live stream, but I know't get people in chats.

1456
01:19:56.800 --> 01:20:00.399
<v Speaker 2>They have or on have her on, Michelle.

1457
01:20:00.399 --> 01:20:03.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, we'll see if there's a groundswell of movement. Thank

1458
01:20:03.319 --> 01:20:05.960
<v Speaker 1>you so much for your call. And for your time,

1459
01:20:06.119 --> 01:20:08.199
<v Speaker 1>and we hope you have a great Sunday afternoon.

1460
01:20:08.399 --> 01:20:11.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. On that note, any inqueries that you that go

1461
01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:15.159
<v Speaker 2>to the show should go to TV at Atheist typeencommunity

1462
01:20:15.479 --> 01:20:19.760
<v Speaker 2>dot org. Okay, we're not going to negotiate terms about

1463
01:20:19.800 --> 01:20:23.359
<v Speaker 2>potential guests live on the air. Okay, that's just not

1464
01:20:23.439 --> 01:20:24.600
<v Speaker 2>a thing, not going to happen.

1465
01:20:24.800 --> 01:20:27.560
<v Speaker 1>So not how these interviews work. Yeah, yeah, there is

1466
01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:29.720
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of a process. Somehow Dan and I

1467
01:20:29.760 --> 01:20:33.039
<v Speaker 1>got through it. But there is a process that exists.

1468
01:20:33.800 --> 01:20:36.199
<v Speaker 1>But no, Dan, it's it's been a fun show. We've

1469
01:20:36.239 --> 01:20:39.079
<v Speaker 1>had a good time. Let's get Aeron back up and

1470
01:20:39.119 --> 01:20:41.520
<v Speaker 1>we can talk about it and wrap start the wrap

1471
01:20:41.520 --> 01:20:41.800
<v Speaker 1>things up.

1472
01:20:41.840 --> 01:20:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes, today, let's do it.

1473
01:20:43.359 --> 01:20:46.880
<v Speaker 1>Aaron, how did we do? Were we worthy of being

1474
01:20:47.039 --> 01:20:49.640
<v Speaker 1>hosts on this network? Have we gone through the process?

1475
01:20:50.079 --> 01:20:50.680
<v Speaker 2>Have we done it?

1476
01:20:51.439 --> 01:20:51.640
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

1477
01:20:51.680 --> 01:20:53.279
<v Speaker 2>Ten out of ten would recommend yes.

1478
01:20:53.399 --> 01:20:56.279
<v Speaker 4>Yes, great, fabulous, fabulous show, great calls.

1479
01:20:56.479 --> 01:21:00.399
<v Speaker 2>Uh, you would never see otherwise, right, Aaron? You always

1480
01:21:00.600 --> 01:21:02.279
<v Speaker 2>tell us, you always tell us the truth.

1481
01:21:02.920 --> 01:21:06.319
<v Speaker 4>Sure, sure, yeah, you'd always tell me the truth, right right,

1482
01:21:06.680 --> 01:21:07.319
<v Speaker 4>it's mutual.

1483
01:21:08.600 --> 01:21:13.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, anyway, called, I.

1484
01:21:13.560 --> 01:21:16.520
<v Speaker 4>Really like Tom's phrase. I'm not sure where he got

1485
01:21:16.520 --> 01:21:19.880
<v Speaker 4>it from. But ponderously unaware of religion. I kind of

1486
01:21:20.199 --> 01:21:24.199
<v Speaker 4>kind of sure that the government ship ponderously unaware of religion.

1487
01:21:24.439 --> 01:21:26.479
<v Speaker 4>I think that would help a lot.

1488
01:21:26.479 --> 01:21:29.840
<v Speaker 2>If it was actually like that. And D's you guys

1489
01:21:29.920 --> 01:21:30.760
<v Speaker 2>talked about.

1490
01:21:30.520 --> 01:21:33.239
<v Speaker 4>The cult of cult versus religion, and I heard that

1491
01:21:33.319 --> 01:21:35.880
<v Speaker 4>defined once as the difference between a cult and a

1492
01:21:35.960 --> 01:21:37.399
<v Speaker 4>religion is how hard it.

1493
01:21:37.359 --> 01:21:37.960
<v Speaker 6>Is to leave.

1494
01:21:38.319 --> 01:21:41.039
<v Speaker 4>The harder it is to leave, the more cultish it is.

1495
01:21:41.359 --> 01:21:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh. I like that. Yeah.

1496
01:21:44.159 --> 01:21:47.920
<v Speaker 4>And then as far as beliefs are concerned with Michelle's

1497
01:21:48.079 --> 01:21:51.680
<v Speaker 4>last call, I I like Steve jobs adage where you

1498
01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:55.880
<v Speaker 4>held strong opinions loosely held strong opinions, where you're you're

1499
01:21:55.920 --> 01:21:59.079
<v Speaker 4>easily convinced. You believe what you believe strongly, but you

1500
01:21:59.079 --> 01:22:02.159
<v Speaker 4>can always all your beliefs are subject to change at anytime,

1501
01:22:02.399 --> 01:22:05.039
<v Speaker 4>given new evidence, given new persuasive arguments.

1502
01:22:05.079 --> 01:22:05.800
<v Speaker 2>Whatever. That is?

1503
01:22:05.800 --> 01:22:08.159
<v Speaker 1>That nothing that a lack of pride, a lack of

1504
01:22:08.199 --> 01:22:11.720
<v Speaker 1>preciousness around some of these things, humbleness and willingness to

1505
01:22:12.279 --> 01:22:14.159
<v Speaker 1>you know, embrace change. I appreciate that.

1506
01:22:14.439 --> 01:22:15.760
<v Speaker 2>Yep, so beautiful.

1507
01:22:15.800 --> 01:22:18.600
<v Speaker 1>Well so for folks who still want to weigh in

1508
01:22:18.600 --> 01:22:21.119
<v Speaker 1>in the comments for the video, what was our our

1509
01:22:21.199 --> 01:22:22.239
<v Speaker 1>question of the week this week.

1510
01:22:22.479 --> 01:22:24.920
<v Speaker 4>Oh, our question of the week this week was what

1511
01:22:25.079 --> 01:22:27.600
<v Speaker 4>is what would Jesus as a rapper name be?

1512
01:22:27.920 --> 01:22:28.079
<v Speaker 3>Right?

1513
01:22:28.439 --> 01:22:34.279
<v Speaker 2>Please? Oh my god. We did not deliver today, folks, but.

1514
01:22:34.680 --> 01:22:37.039
<v Speaker 4>I'd probably go with King Cross or something like that.

1515
01:22:37.720 --> 01:22:40.880
<v Speaker 2>Crosses King Cross. All right, actually place, no, that was?

1516
01:22:41.000 --> 01:22:45.000
<v Speaker 2>That was much better? Yeah, yeah, all right? Today?

1517
01:22:45.159 --> 01:22:48.399
<v Speaker 1>Well, anybody all are sending out loverings to today are

1518
01:22:48.560 --> 01:22:52.199
<v Speaker 1>certainly our crew and everybody who helped us get this going,

1519
01:22:52.800 --> 01:22:56.359
<v Speaker 1>especially since I so often forget to bring ups up

1520
01:22:56.399 --> 01:22:58.760
<v Speaker 1>to that camera shot and to let us let us

1521
01:22:58.800 --> 01:23:01.279
<v Speaker 1>see their beautiful faces. Who else y'all got?

1522
01:23:01.359 --> 01:23:02.039
<v Speaker 4>You're talking to me?

1523
01:23:02.239 --> 01:23:02.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

1524
01:23:02.399 --> 01:23:02.880
<v Speaker 5>Who you talking?

1525
01:23:03.279 --> 01:23:05.479
<v Speaker 1>Anybody else? Y'all send it out lover rings to oh

1526
01:23:05.560 --> 01:23:06.680
<v Speaker 1>oh oh gosh.

1527
01:23:06.720 --> 01:23:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Everybody everyone out there sending it to the Happy Pride Month,

1528
01:23:11.000 --> 01:23:13.359
<v Speaker 2>say it to the Friology Et plus community.

1529
01:23:13.600 --> 01:23:15.920
<v Speaker 4>You know, anybody who needs a community, is looking for

1530
01:23:16.479 --> 01:23:17.439
<v Speaker 4>to belong somewhere.

1531
01:23:17.560 --> 01:23:18.880
<v Speaker 2>This is your community, right.

1532
01:23:18.840 --> 01:23:21.159
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely so.

1533
01:23:21.520 --> 01:23:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

1534
01:23:21.800 --> 01:23:25.159
<v Speaker 1>If you don't believe this is your community, we appreciate

1535
01:23:25.199 --> 01:23:27.760
<v Speaker 1>you being here. If you do believe, we definitely don't

1536
01:23:27.800 --> 01:23:28.279
<v Speaker 1>hate you.

1537
01:23:28.319 --> 01:23:49.479
<v Speaker 2>We're just noting, not convinced we did it. We want

1538
01:23:49.520 --> 01:23:52.479
<v Speaker 2>the truth. So watch Truth Wanted live Fridays at seven

1539
01:23:52.520 --> 01:23:56.760
<v Speaker 2>pm Central Call five one two nine nine two four two,

1540
01:23:57.119 --> 01:24:00.199
<v Speaker 2>or visit tiny dot cc forward slash call tw yeah

1541
01:24:04.880 --> 01:24:06.560
<v Speaker 5>Can lea