1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel Bond, barbecue editor at Texas Monthly, and this 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:13,359 was Fire and Smoke, the Texas Monthly Barbecue podcast, brought 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,280 to you by YETI. For this episode, we're going to 4 00:00:17,359 --> 00:00:20,199 do something a little different. We usually bring you stories 5 00:00:20,199 --> 00:00:23,440 about barbecue from around Texas, but Matthew Odom is the 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,359 food critic here in Austin at the Austin American Statesman. 7 00:00:26,399 --> 00:00:28,920 He made quite a stir when he put out an 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,440 article about the brisket and Lockhart. I'm not sure if 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,359 he was responsible for the headline or not, but it 10 00:00:34,439 --> 00:00:39,039 read that, you know, Lockhart barbecue is basically overrated. It 11 00:00:39,119 --> 00:00:41,520 was certainly a shot across the bow from a guy 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,200 from Austin. A lot of the folks in Lockhart were 13 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,439 certainly upset that an Austin food critic would come down 14 00:00:47,439 --> 00:00:50,520 to their hallowed grounds and dare speak ill of their 15 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,159 prize barbecue. So I wanted to sit down with him 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,439 and talk to him about what his motivation was for 17 00:00:55,759 --> 00:00:58,719 writing that article and if he's had a chance to 18 00:00:58,799 --> 00:01:02,000 reflect on it. I guess see what some of the 19 00:01:02,039 --> 00:01:05,359 feedback has been from folks in Lockhart and across Texas 20 00:01:05,359 --> 00:01:09,359 who either love or maybe agree with him about Lockhart brisket. 21 00:01:09,719 --> 00:01:12,760 So let's talk with Matthew Odom. You had a recent article. 22 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,760 I guess this was last month. The headline of the 23 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:22,040 article is legendary Lockhart barbecue is overrated now or was 24 00:01:22,079 --> 00:01:25,359 that the headline? That was the headline. We're in the 25 00:01:25,359 --> 00:01:28,040 same business here, so I think we both understand or 26 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,640 both are certainly familiar with the fact that we don't 27 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,280 get to choose our headlines all the time. 28 00:01:33,439 --> 00:01:35,159 Speaker 2: I might have written I don't know. Maybe I wrote that, 29 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:35,799 but I don't think so. 30 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: No, that didn't end up in your article. 31 00:01:37,799 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 2: I don't know. 32 00:01:38,439 --> 00:01:40,519 Speaker 1: I think the spirit of the article was though, that 33 00:01:41,159 --> 00:01:45,040 Lockhart barbecue is a bit overrated. One of the things 34 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,439 that you said was something has changed over the past decade. 35 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,959 I'm not sure if it is Lockhart or me. Maybe both. 36 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't, you know. It's that's how it is 37 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,799 with anything, right, Like I remember Shaky's pizza as a 38 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,439 kid being great, and I don't think Shaky's pizza was 39 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:05,200 probably great. I'm in Houston, Texas, and same with Panjo's pizza. 40 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,760 Maybe it was great. I don't know. You have a 41 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,520 lot of these memories. I remembered loving eating hot dogs 42 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,560 from the food trucks in Washington, DC on the National Mall. 43 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,759 It was like the first place I encountered food trucks 44 00:02:17,759 --> 00:02:20,800 when I was like nineteen seventy nine or something. And 45 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,400 I'm sure those hot dogs are terrible. Now I'm not 46 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:26,280 saying this food is the equivalent of hot dogs from 47 00:02:26,319 --> 00:02:29,039 a food truck on the mall in DC. But I 48 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,400 remember going to Smitty's, you know, over the past twenty years, 49 00:02:33,479 --> 00:02:36,439 and really specifically, I remember going. I did a blog 50 00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:40,400 for The Statesman in two thousand and seven and went 51 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,560 down to Smitty's and it blew my mind. And christ 52 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,879 was good. At the time. I didn't think Blacks was 53 00:02:45,879 --> 00:02:48,280 as good, but Smitty's, to me at that time was amazing. 54 00:02:48,719 --> 00:02:51,759 And then I go about every two years and I 55 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,000 just hadn't been down in a while, and so I 56 00:02:54,039 --> 00:02:57,240 went back for this article. It wasn't supposed to be 57 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:57,840 a hot take. 58 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,199 Speaker 1: Honestly, What was the purpose of the article in your 59 00:03:01,199 --> 00:03:02,960 mind when you were traveling down to Lockhart. 60 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I get asked every now and then, I 61 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,240 get asked by people visiting town and people who live here, 62 00:03:09,759 --> 00:03:11,800 what's your favorite place in Lockhart? Because that was the 63 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,240 place everybody would want to go to eat barbecue. Now, 64 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,759 over the past ten years, really, probably since Aaron opened 65 00:03:17,759 --> 00:03:22,479 his truck and everything and started happening or trailer, everything's 66 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,280 changed so much here that I don't get asked that 67 00:03:24,319 --> 00:03:26,240 as much because people ask where do you go to 68 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,560 eat barbecue in Austin. But people used to make sojourns 69 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,520 and pilgrimages down to Lockhart, and they still do and 70 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,960 would ask for my favorite And so I'd go down 71 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,840 every eighteen months, every two years, and I generally had 72 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,240 a sense of them, but I hadn't been in a while. 73 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,840 I went to Krit's about a year ago on my 74 00:03:42,919 --> 00:03:45,800 way down to South Texas to do a taco story, 75 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,479 and I think I went to Blacks about a year 76 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,240 before that, so I hadn't been in a while. And 77 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,520 my folks called me and they were in Wimberley and said, 78 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,599 we're going to go to Blacks and have barbecue. Do 79 00:03:54,599 --> 00:03:57,120 you want to come? And I said, yeah, let me 80 00:03:57,159 --> 00:04:00,919 bring my nephew, my thirteen year old nephew, fourteen years nephew, Charlie. 81 00:04:01,199 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: And like a true food critic, You're like, why just 82 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:04,479 go to Black exactly? 83 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: I mean, it really was. I was like, you know, 84 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,400 I don't come down here all that often. I'm already 85 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,680 going to be at Blacks. The other ones are within 86 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,000 a mile or two, so this would be a good 87 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,560 time to run around, try all of them and get 88 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,199 a sense. So when people ask me what your favorite place, 89 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,800 I could tell them. And now the problem becomes, unless 90 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:24,759 your name is Daniel Vaughan, you're not going to go 91 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,360 have four meals, four full meals, at four different restaurants 92 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,839 in one afternoon. So I thought, well what should I do? 93 00:04:31,879 --> 00:04:35,920 And I thought, well, brisket is kind of the standard 94 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,800 bear or the what do you call it, the measuring 95 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,040 stick of barbecue in central Texas. 96 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,439 Speaker 1: And not just the measuring stick. But I also think 97 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,680 if out of towners are asking you where to go 98 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,959 get barbecue, what they really mean is where should I 99 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,439 go on Lockhart to get brisket? Everybody outside of Texas 100 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,920 thinks of that's all we do here in Texas, so 101 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:56,959 and they're often going to be looking for the bar 102 00:04:57,079 --> 00:04:59,480 for the brisket specifically. 103 00:04:58,959 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 2: Right And as you know my much better than I, 104 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:03,319 and I said this in my article, and I think 105 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,279 a lot of people probably just read the headline the 106 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,800 ones that got upset anyways, is that I know that 107 00:05:09,879 --> 00:05:13,199 Lockhart is not necessarily the brisket capital of Texas. You know, 108 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,480 I think I used to get the n cut pork 109 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,480 chop at Smitty's. I know that the pork chop and 110 00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:20,639 the sausage are great at Krits. I know that the 111 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,800 beef rib is really great at Blacks. I'm sure Chisholm 112 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,759 Trail is known for something that I can't that I 113 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,839 don't know. So I know that these places don't pride 114 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,920 themselves on being the best brisket makers in the world. 115 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,319 I'm sure they pride themselves on their brisket, but I 116 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,000 don't think they would say it's their best thing they do. 117 00:05:39,079 --> 00:05:41,199 I mean, as you know, I think a lot of them. 118 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:43,199 When you ask for lean, a couple of them anyways 119 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,759 give you claud instead shoulder claud. So you know, it's 120 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:49,680 not like you're going to Franklin or you're going to 121 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,959 love Barbecue and you say, give me, give me lean, 122 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,639 give me a little lean, give me a little fatty, 123 00:05:53,639 --> 00:05:56,920 and you're getting it from the brisket. And then on 124 00:05:56,959 --> 00:05:59,639 top of that, I think you know, these guys smoke 125 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,319 their bit differently, so it's it's just a different animal, 126 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:05,920 not you know, literally and figuratively, literally in the sense 127 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,480 that it's it's not prime brisket that you're finding it 128 00:06:08,519 --> 00:06:10,839 some places in Austin. And figuratively it's a different animal 129 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,959 in the sense that it's cooked differently. And so it's 130 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,199 kind of comparing apples and oranges to some degree to 131 00:06:16,199 --> 00:06:18,600 compare Austin. We'll get to love and that, and that. 132 00:06:18,519 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: Would be my argument is that uh, going to Lockhart 133 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,680 and just focusing on the brisket in in comparing it 134 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,040 to Austin. Now you eat all over Austin because you're 135 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,240 always trying to update your your best barbecue list here 136 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,439 in Austin proper, and so of course you become more 137 00:06:36,439 --> 00:06:38,639 and more familiar with the with the brisket here in 138 00:06:38,639 --> 00:06:40,959 Austin and in the style that people are looking for 139 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,360 when they come here to town. To me, the style 140 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,600 of brisket and Lockhart is just something completely different. Like uh, 141 00:06:48,879 --> 00:06:53,000 you know Tim Mkeska Mkeska's barbecue it was up in Taylor, Texas. 142 00:06:53,319 --> 00:06:55,560 He calls it a full term brisket. Here in Austin, 143 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,439 he says, uh, he told me once He's like, if 144 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,000 you cooked it any further, it would fall through net. 145 00:07:01,879 --> 00:07:05,079 Speaker 2: And you know it's that nice render, right. 146 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: So I mean here here in Austin, it's all about 147 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,120 cooking it low, cooking it for a really long time, 148 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,160 usually starting with a prime product, maybe a prime brisket 149 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,839 or maybe even better, and cooking it a really long time, 150 00:07:16,879 --> 00:07:19,199 so you end up with a really super tender brisket. 151 00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:22,879 I mean in the time that a brisket at Franklin 152 00:07:22,879 --> 00:07:25,639 Barbecue is resting at the end of its cooking time 153 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,040 in that four or five hour period, they'll cook a 154 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,759 whole brisket at Krite's Market, right, And so that just 155 00:07:32,759 --> 00:07:34,040 just the way that they cook it, the way that 156 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,160 they do it over that high heat, is you're just 157 00:07:36,199 --> 00:07:38,759 going to end up with something different. So how much 158 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,439 of it, in your mind is that you're simply evaluating 159 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,920 a different style of brisket in Lockhart than what you 160 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:47,720 get here in Austin. 161 00:07:47,879 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's a very fair point. And you know, 162 00:07:49,639 --> 00:07:51,480 at some point I could have pulled back and said, 163 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,120 you know, as you said on the metadata search on 164 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,519 the Internet, I think it's when you google Matthew Odam 165 00:07:57,519 --> 00:07:59,639 and Lockhart. I think what comes up is ranking the 166 00:07:59,639 --> 00:08:02,240 best risk in Lockhart, and that really was the idea. 167 00:08:03,399 --> 00:08:06,279 And then once I saw that it wasn't up to 168 00:08:06,439 --> 00:08:08,600 the standard I used to hold it to, or the 169 00:08:08,639 --> 00:08:11,360 standard that I have now, I guess or my memory 170 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,800 of the past. At first my standard of now, maybe 171 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,519 I should have gone back and eaten full meals at 172 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,639 all of them and then really judged how I would 173 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,959 rank the four of them based on entire meals, the 174 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,680 way I do when I visit restaurants here in town. 175 00:08:26,439 --> 00:08:29,360 But I think the brisket was just so disappointing and 176 00:08:29,399 --> 00:08:32,879 that my purpose was to rank the briskets. So you know, 177 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:35,240 maybe I got carried away. Maybe it's you. It would 178 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:40,039 be like going to an NBA game where the all 179 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,320 the starters are resting because Papovich rested all of his starters, 180 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,039 and you leave and you just say, man, the NBA 181 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,679 product's just not as good as it used to be, 182 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,159 and while you were watching the second team like you 183 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,360 weren't having you know, Manu Genobili pork chops. So you know, 184 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,399 maybe it's it's it's not fair. I was just really 185 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,519 surprised by because I'd had the brisket before, and I 186 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,919 remember the brisket being better I just remember all of 187 00:09:03,919 --> 00:09:07,159 it being better. I did have some sausage at Smitty's 188 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:08,200 and Chrits. 189 00:09:08,639 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: If I'm going to Lockhart, I think of Lockhart as 190 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,600 a sausage town right primarily, And I think maybe that's 191 00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:16,080 just because if you look at the history of barbecue 192 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:21,039 and sausage, the smoke sausage has that really distinct tie 193 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,120 to meat market style barbecue, like it is the scraps, 194 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:26,159 something that you're gonna make from the scraps and smoke, 195 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,879 and all of these places in Lockhart are identified with 196 00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:31,279 that meat market style of barbecue. So I mean, that's 197 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,200 that's what I think of primarily, and then maybe pork chops. Now. 198 00:09:34,399 --> 00:09:36,399 One of the things I was really surprised about was, 199 00:09:37,639 --> 00:09:40,159 you know, you had you did have some blowback, You 200 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,360 had these things. I wasn't surprised about as the fact 201 00:09:44,399 --> 00:09:46,759 that you had said you got a letter from the 202 00:09:46,799 --> 00:09:49,799 mayor of Lockhart. You also heard from the unofficial mayor 203 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,759 of Lockhart, Roy Perez, the the pitmaster at Krit's Market, 204 00:09:53,759 --> 00:09:56,480 who who made the argument of you know, basically respect 205 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,480 your elders. Lockhart is the one who kind of made 206 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,679 this whole barbecue boom possible. 207 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:02,759 Speaker 2: Which which I totally agree with. And I just to 208 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,639 jump in. You know, Roy's response was on Facebook, which 209 00:10:05,639 --> 00:10:07,639 I hadn't seen until you directed me to it, and 210 00:10:07,879 --> 00:10:11,320 it was actually really respectful in the sense that, you know, 211 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,159 he didn't call me any names or anything, but his 212 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,759 point was, we bust our ass. We show up every day. 213 00:10:15,919 --> 00:10:18,200 We've been doing it for decades. There's people that still 214 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:19,679 line up here every day for it, and we're going 215 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,559 to keep doing it until we can't do it anymore. 216 00:10:21,799 --> 00:10:23,759 And respect the fact that we've been doing this forever. 217 00:10:23,799 --> 00:10:26,000 And I get it. And I mean, I look, I've 218 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,279 worked in a couple of restaurants. I have no earthly 219 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:31,240 idea of how hard cooking barbecue is, what those hours 220 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,600 are like, how thinkless it is, how hard it is 221 00:10:33,639 --> 00:10:35,720 to make a living doing it. So I get all that, 222 00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:37,720 and I respect that, and I appreciated the tone that 223 00:10:37,799 --> 00:10:40,200 Roy took. The one the one issue I take with 224 00:10:40,639 --> 00:10:42,519 you know, both the mayor and with the head of 225 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,120 the Chamber of Commerce is. 226 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: From both of them. 227 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and the Chamber of covers phone call or 228 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,000 there were emails, and the Chamber of Commerce president didn't 229 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:53,240 identify himself as such, but a Google cursory Google search 230 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,159 revealed as much, which, of course, he wants people to 231 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,080 come down there and live down there and all the 232 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,200 businesses to thrive. So I get it, and I get 233 00:11:00,519 --> 00:11:02,879 where the mayor came from who asked me to next 234 00:11:02,879 --> 00:11:05,159 time I return, I should have hat in hand, which 235 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,679 a couple of friends I read that too, who aren't 236 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,679 familiar with Texas jargon, we're a little bit confused by that. 237 00:11:10,919 --> 00:11:12,960 I found it kind of charming. But you know, the 238 00:11:13,039 --> 00:11:15,399 one thing I will say is just because you've been 239 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,559 doing it forever doesn't necessarily mean you should keep getting 240 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,519 people to come to your place based off the fact 241 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,600 that you've been doing it forever. Like, you know, you're 242 00:11:26,759 --> 00:11:30,679 benefiting from your name ID and from your reputation, so 243 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,279 at a certain point you should still have to live 244 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,399 up to that reputation if you're going to be benefiting 245 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,080 from it. I think it cuts both ways. 246 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, they certainly benefit from the fact that 247 00:11:38,879 --> 00:11:41,799 they have all of them have earned legendary status. Yeah, 248 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:47,440 and because of that, guide books and lists and recommendations 249 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,639 will constantly include them and maybe won't be so critical 250 00:11:51,759 --> 00:11:55,600 because they are so legendary. So maybe the fact that 251 00:11:55,639 --> 00:11:58,080 you came in and were so critical. Was pretty Jarry, 252 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,000 and I know that. In our last Texas Monthly, last 253 00:12:02,279 --> 00:12:06,080 top fifty list, well we got a lot of complaints 254 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,679 because Krit's Market made it on that top fifty, but 255 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,200 Black's Barbecue was not on it anymore, and the one before, 256 00:12:13,639 --> 00:12:17,799 Smitty's Market came off of it. So in three lists 257 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,399 we got down to just one barbecue joint in Lockhart 258 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,279 and it was Krit's Market. Now, maybe a lot of 259 00:12:23,279 --> 00:12:25,399 that is due to how much I love that pork chop. 260 00:12:26,759 --> 00:12:28,840 That's one of my go to items and really all 261 00:12:28,879 --> 00:12:29,320 of Texas. 262 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,919 Speaker 2: Okay, so have you there really pretty ones to Dayaniel. 263 00:12:31,759 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: Well, I just always go early in the morning. 264 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,639 Speaker 2: You see, say when did they open? 265 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: They open at ten thirty in the morning. Yeah, so 266 00:12:38,519 --> 00:12:41,120 if you if you walk in at ten thirty, you 267 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,679 get a fresh, hot, juicy pork chop right off of there. Now, 268 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:45,879 the other thing, too is you'll get a fresh, hot 269 00:12:46,159 --> 00:12:48,480 and juicy brisket right off of there. They serve it, 270 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:51,080 they cook it screaming hot, and they serve it screaming 271 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,559 hot too, So I mean it's when they're slicing into it, 272 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,000 you see all that that all the steam coming off 273 00:12:57,039 --> 00:13:00,720 of it. And you know, for me, if I'm if 274 00:13:00,759 --> 00:13:03,919 I'm getting a lot of things at Christ's Market, when 275 00:13:03,919 --> 00:13:05,759 I sit down, especially with the group, I'm like, Okay, 276 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,440 eat the brisket first, right because it's just sitting there, 277 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,600 it's still cooking. It's it's losing a lot of its 278 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,399 moisture right now. But one of the things that I 279 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,000 thought was kind of funny or at least surprising, was 280 00:13:17,039 --> 00:13:20,639 that I opened up an editorial from the local paper, 281 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,320 from the Lockhart paper, and I thought that he was 282 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,639 just gonna lambased you, like, here's here's my chance to 283 00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:29,399 get back at the Austin Food critic. And he basically 284 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:30,919 said a lot of things that we're saying right now. 285 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,000 He said that he doesn't see Lockhart primarily as a 286 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,480 brisket town. He would think sausage and pork chops, even 287 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,759 the prime rib or something that is more identified there. 288 00:13:42,159 --> 00:13:44,600 And I mean, really his criticisms of you, maybe this 289 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,120 is like a vast media conspiracy here, right, all the 290 00:13:49,159 --> 00:13:54,240 food journalists here are banding together. But he didn't really 291 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,559 have a whole lot critical about what you had to 292 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,879 say about Lockhart brisket. What what's the sort of response 293 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,480 you've gotten from the general public. 294 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought that was a nice one. He had 295 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,879 a couple self effacing jokes in there, and he had 296 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:08,879 a couple of good, you know, kind of hacky newspaper quips, 297 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,360 and you know, I think he agreed with some of it. 298 00:14:11,399 --> 00:14:12,759 He also has just said, you know, it's a matter 299 00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:14,759 of perspective, and he'd pointed out the things that certain 300 00:14:14,759 --> 00:14:16,480 places are better at than others. I thought it was 301 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,679 I thought it was a nice column. You know, I 302 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,080 would you know, I say this, I know that there's 303 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,840 going to be a lot of people that say, well, 304 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:25,799 let me send you an email and tell you what 305 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,759 I think. But the people that did email and call, 306 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,960 I mean, besides the Chamber of Commerce president and besides 307 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,519 the mayor, there was one other guy who had a 308 00:14:34,519 --> 00:14:37,480 lot of colorful language for me. But you know, I 309 00:14:37,519 --> 00:14:41,519 think I got about seventy five or eighty emails and 310 00:14:41,559 --> 00:14:43,919 phone calls, and about ninety five percent of them agreed 311 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,240 with me. And you know, and I wasn't looking for that. 312 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,240 I you know, I was almost kind of surprised, thinking, well, 313 00:14:48,279 --> 00:14:50,519 you know, I didn't mean to kick somebody while they 314 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:52,480 were down, not that not that they're down but I 315 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,519 was like, oh, I guess a lot of people already 316 00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:57,799 felt this way. And you know, I had people thank 317 00:14:57,879 --> 00:15:00,799 me publicly and privately for colin something out because I 318 00:15:00,799 --> 00:15:02,320 think people go out of their way to go down 319 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,240 there still and they've had some bad experiences. And again, like, 320 00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:07,799 you know, you went down there about a week after 321 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,600 I did and posted a picture of that pork shop, 322 00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:11,840 which looked amazing, and I'm sure it was great, and 323 00:15:12,039 --> 00:15:14,639 I'm just busting chops. I'm sure it wasn't just because 324 00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:17,120 it was you, And so I'm not saying there's not 325 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,399 a reason for people to go down there. It was 326 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,679 more of a I'm having to reconsider my relationship with 327 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,799 Lockhart and where I placed it in my head versus 328 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:28,720 what I've been experiencing lately. 329 00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: Now. 330 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,759 Speaker 2: Some of the harder criticism I heard, which wasn't that 331 00:15:32,919 --> 00:15:37,240 terrible or personal, was I heard a couple pit masters, 332 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:41,080 I think they are, you know, barbecue cooks on a 333 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,000 different podcast because somebody sent it to me and they 334 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,159 were upset and thought that I was disrespectful because I 335 00:15:47,159 --> 00:15:49,639 wasn't appreciating the history of the place, and you know, 336 00:15:49,679 --> 00:15:51,759 they did just recognize that, you know, it's just one 337 00:15:51,759 --> 00:15:54,240 person's opinion, which I recognize as well, but I think 338 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,360 they took more umbrage with the fact that maybe I 339 00:15:56,399 --> 00:15:59,399 didn't appreciate the history of it and the amount of 340 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,519 work that goes into something like that, And you know 341 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,600 I do, but you still, you still got to say 342 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,440 what you've got to say. And you know I've got 343 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,120 a question for you. I mean, you eat everywhere, and 344 00:16:09,159 --> 00:16:13,919 you eat regular food besides barbecue. I don't know that 345 00:16:13,919 --> 00:16:18,399 that kind of barbecue, which is about community, it's about 346 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,279 preserving meat to some degree, it's about coming up with 347 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,320 ways to make off cuts better. It's about a place 348 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,559 where people gather on weekends to eat. It's about fourteen 349 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,720 dollars a pound meat, not twenty five dollars a pound. 350 00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:36,159 Twenty dollars a pound meat. I don't know that it 351 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,240 necessarily holds up to critical scrutiny the way you know 352 00:16:39,279 --> 00:16:41,679 a four star restaurant does necessarily well. 353 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that has to go 354 00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:47,399 I would agree with you there, and I think a 355 00:16:47,399 --> 00:16:49,879 lot of it has to do with you can't go 356 00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:52,480 to Lockhart, especially for the first time, and not be 357 00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:53,639 in complete all. 358 00:16:53,799 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: Oh, it's amazing. 359 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: You walk into a spot like Smitty's. You walk past 360 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,360 those huge brick pits, you go into Krit's market and 361 00:17:01,399 --> 00:17:05,359 you meet Roy Perez, and I mean, if you're lucky 362 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,720 that day and they're not too busy, he might even, 363 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,799 like he did for me, ask my son to come 364 00:17:09,799 --> 00:17:11,720 back and like help him cut a piece of brisket. 365 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,160 Like these are things that aren't about how good the 366 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,480 barbecue is. But in a lot of people's experience, they're 367 00:17:19,519 --> 00:17:23,119 not going in looking that critically at the barbecue. They're 368 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,480 going in looking at the full experience. And it's hard 369 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,680 to get an experience like that outside of Lockhart. Now 370 00:17:29,039 --> 00:17:32,680 when you switch and change to your strictly your critics 371 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,000 hat and go down, and it's hard to strip all 372 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,480 that away, but you have to. You know, you've got 373 00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:39,680 to try and get that all out of your mind. 374 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,559 That the fact that Krit's has been opened since nineteen hundred, 375 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,279 and you know the fact that they've been on all 376 00:17:45,279 --> 00:17:48,319 these lists. Trying to strip that away is kind of tough. 377 00:17:48,799 --> 00:17:52,400 And so I guess that's what you had to go do, 378 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,680 is try and get all of that out of your 379 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,200 mind and just simply say, okay, side by side by, 380 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,240 side by side, how are these briskets performing, and I 381 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,039 mean I think your conclusion was you thought you were 382 00:18:06,039 --> 00:18:08,000 going to get this really clear ranking of which one 383 00:18:08,079 --> 00:18:12,000 was best. But they were all just sort of okay, yeah, 384 00:18:12,039 --> 00:18:13,720 you know, and some of them bad. 385 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Smitty's and Chishem Trail weren't weren't very good. 386 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,680 Blacks was actually decent. The smoke taste, to me, I 387 00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:26,119 just didn't sit well with me. And and Christ was 388 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,799 I think the best of the four, uh, but quite greasy, 389 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,440 you know. And I do acknowledge and appreciate the history 390 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,279 and and the esthetic and the scene when you go 391 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,720 down there, and you know, I've taken my nephews, I've 392 00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:43,079 taken girlfriends in the past, I took I think I 393 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,319 took my wife once, you know, the press ten ceiling 394 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,599 at Smitty's and that fire pit, as you say, and 395 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,079 getting some Bluebelt ice cream afterwards, and walking over by 396 00:18:52,079 --> 00:18:55,519 the courthouse. You know, every time I walk through that 397 00:18:55,519 --> 00:18:58,359 that county square, I go over to the little real 398 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,680 estate office and just look at, you know, the property 399 00:19:00,759 --> 00:19:03,359 values in Lockhart and dream of what it would be 400 00:19:03,519 --> 00:19:06,319 like to move down there and have a house for 401 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,240 a fifth of the cost of Austin. But I don't 402 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,319 know that that that they'd let me do that anymore. 403 00:19:12,759 --> 00:19:14,279 Speaker 1: You don't even know if you'd be welcome to be 404 00:19:14,319 --> 00:19:19,240 a homeowner within Lockhart, right. Oh boy, Well, so do 405 00:19:19,279 --> 00:19:22,160 you think that it's time for places like, you know, 406 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,240 these legendary places to start to start evolving. 407 00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:27,839 Speaker 2: No, I think just do what you do. You know, 408 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,200 like you said, the pork shop was good. I did 409 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,839 have some, really, you know. I had some not good 410 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,599 sausage at Smitty's and I had some okay sausage at 411 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,160 Crites recently. But your pork shop was great. The beef 412 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,759 rib I had at Blacks was great. You know, again, 413 00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:46,200 you're not going down to these places because they're the 414 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,559 top ten barbecue places in Texas. You're going down for 415 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,759 the history, for the fact that they're all right there, 416 00:19:52,079 --> 00:19:55,319 for the quaint field of the small town, for the nostalgia, 417 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,720 for the esthetic, just for getting in touch with those roots. 418 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,519 You know, there's not a lot of people taking Instagram 419 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:04,559 photos at these restaurants, thank god, So you know, they 420 00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:07,079 should just do what they do. And as roy Pres said, 421 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,200 people keep showing up and lining up outside the door 422 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,599 when we open, and so more power to them. I 423 00:20:12,599 --> 00:20:14,599 don't I don't think that they should try and do 424 00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:19,000 big city barbecue. I mean, they do what they do, 425 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:21,319 and they do it as well as they need to 426 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:22,640 do it, and they do it the way they want 427 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,799 to do it. And I think that's the biggest thing 428 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,920 is that's they cook the way they want to cook, 429 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,319 and they're they're okay with it, and they're happy with it, 430 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,440 and they should be proud of it. And I don't 431 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:36,160 think trying to replicate the sausages at Mickelthwaite, or the 432 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,920 tacos at Valentina's or the brisket at Franklin is going 433 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,000 to do anybody any good. 434 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,759 Speaker 1: Now, I did go down a week after you wrote 435 00:20:43,799 --> 00:20:46,400 the article, and I went into Christ's Market to eat 436 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,559 there and talk with the owner, talk with Roy, and 437 00:20:49,599 --> 00:20:52,960 when I sat down with Keith Schmidt, certainly your article 438 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,039 came up, but my main reason for being there was 439 00:20:56,559 --> 00:20:58,759 to look at the ways in which they have evolved. 440 00:21:01,319 --> 00:21:02,880 I know, I know people like to go down there 441 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,240 and they like to think that it's always been that way. 442 00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:09,519 And now I wrote about the barbecue sauce at Krit's, 443 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,400 which after over one hundred years, they had never served 444 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,559 barbecue sauce. And I wrote specifically about the fact that 445 00:21:16,599 --> 00:21:19,039 they now serve that sauce and they have forks, which 446 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,920 changed a big part of their identity. But I would 447 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,279 argue that the other thing that I ate there showed 448 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:28,759 a lot more about the evolution of Christ's market than anything, 449 00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:30,920 and that was the fact that they had pork billy 450 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,160 burnt ends on the menu. 451 00:21:32,279 --> 00:21:33,799 Speaker 2: No I didn't. I don't think I saw that. 452 00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: Now you can argue that, okay, Chrits should have kept 453 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,319 the no sauce, no forks policy just for posterity, like 454 00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:44,720 they just should have stuck to their guns and damned 455 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:45,279 the yelpers. 456 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: But do yelpers get upset about that? 457 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,759 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean yelpers, customers, customers who were coming in. 458 00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:54,440 They said that they had they had to throw people 459 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,279 out because some of the arguments got so they just 460 00:21:58,279 --> 00:21:58,920 got so loud. 461 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: So why do people care so much about adding for 462 00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:04,319 besides just now tradition sauce. 463 00:22:04,079 --> 00:22:06,039 Speaker 1: Before they added sauce and forks. 464 00:22:06,079 --> 00:22:08,079 Speaker 2: Oh, they were mad that they weren't going ahead. 465 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,279 Speaker 1: People who were yelling like, what am I an animal? 466 00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:12,799 I'm gonna you expect me to just eat with my hands? 467 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 2: Idiots? 468 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: You know, where's the barbecue? Sauce. So they did, they 469 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,079 acquiesced and just went ahead and they added sauce. There's 470 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,000 no longer any barbecue joint in Texas anymore that does 471 00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:25,680 not serve barbecue sauce. They were the sort of loan holdout. 472 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,160 But again I think that it's the pork belly burn 473 00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:31,920 in say a lot more about the fact of how 474 00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:35,599 willing Christ's market is to evolve into a sort of 475 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,599 more modern barbecue menu. That to me was a lot 476 00:22:38,599 --> 00:22:41,440 more jarring than the fact that they now offer a 477 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:42,359 sauce on the side. 478 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's very interesting. I mean, if they 479 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,880 started doing lamb belly bond me the only No. Things 480 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,319 have really gone sideways. But I mean, I think it's 481 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,359 completely their prerogative. They've earned it after decades and decades 482 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,440 are a century now to do what they want. I 483 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,920 would have totally understood if they never added forks or sauce. 484 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:01,960 But if he felt he was getting the heat from 485 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,640 customers and it was easier to acquiesce than not, than 486 00:23:05,079 --> 00:23:07,119 you know, I can't blame him for that. Nobody wants 487 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,640 to listen to angry customers and yelpers, and you know, 488 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,960 the customer is generally right, or you want them to 489 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,160 be happy anyways, But I think it's interesting that they've 490 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,839 added these pork belly Brennan's. I'd see'd be curious to 491 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:20,519 see what I mean, where do you think they would 492 00:23:20,559 --> 00:23:24,920 go next? Like, what do you see them doing, you know, 493 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,559 other cuts of meat and other preparations the way like 494 00:23:28,599 --> 00:23:29,960 somebody at Leroy and Lewis does. 495 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:32,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would think maybe looking towards other cuts of meat. 496 00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:35,960 I doubt they'll ever change the way that they the 497 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,400 way that they cook cotton fast and they do. I 498 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,400 think maybe adding other menu items might be the direction 499 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:41,880 they go. 500 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,759 Speaker 2: Do krist Smith as far as you know, do Kriste, 501 00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:48,519 Smitty Blacks and chisholm All smoke brisket for the same 502 00:23:48,759 --> 00:23:49,359 length at time. 503 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: No, Krits and Smitty's are the two that they really 504 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,359 do the hot and fast, like four hours, four to 505 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,359 five hours they get a brisket done. Yeah, yeah, it 506 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,559 Black's barbecue. They started in a in a gas fired rotisserie. 507 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,440 It cooks a half to two thirds of the way through, 508 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,079 they chill it down and then it goes onto that 509 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,160 the old brick pit that they've got in the back. 510 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,319 So if you take a tour. You'll see that brick 511 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,359 pit with the briskets on there, so that's where they 512 00:24:15,559 --> 00:24:18,920 finish everything. They get the last dose of smoke on there. 513 00:24:19,039 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: How long has Krit's been doing that pickling bar that 514 00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:24,079 they have there in the main dining hall. 515 00:24:25,079 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: That's a good question, because I think that's a. 516 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,799 Speaker 2: Cool like I don't remember that from ten to fifteen 517 00:24:28,839 --> 00:24:32,480 years ago, and little small innovations like that I like 518 00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:35,279 a lot, because that's not changing what you do with barbecue, 519 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,400 is just kind of supplementing it with things on the 520 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,240 side because I love all that acid and tang kind 521 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,920 of getting into the smoky meat. 522 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: I just really like the fact that they take credit cards. Now, 523 00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:47,799 oh yeah, smitty' smitty still does not know they must 524 00:24:48,079 --> 00:24:51,920 make a killing off of that atm over there. Now, 525 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,519 this might sound a little far fetched, but I think 526 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,799 I think if you look at your article the points 527 00:24:57,799 --> 00:25:01,680 that it makes, I think maybe some far off time, 528 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,200 some food historian and the future is going to look 529 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,559 back at this article and see it as something that 530 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,599 does mark a change or a transition in Texas barbecues, 531 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:16,559 something about the transformation of Texas barbecue from looking only 532 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,079 at its roots, looking only at the legendary places of 533 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,240 being infallible to you know, maybe more of a shift 534 00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:26,039 to the newer way that things are being cooked for 535 00:25:26,079 --> 00:25:30,279 those future food historians. At this point, could you offer 536 00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:34,160 any guesses to where Texas barbecue itself might go from here? 537 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 2: Hello, future food historians. You know, I went recently to Whitfields, 538 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,160 which is a trailer owned by Casey Studdard and chef 539 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:50,279 Josh Josh Watkins down at Brody Lane in South Austin, 540 00:25:50,319 --> 00:25:51,000 Deep South Austin. 541 00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:53,559 Speaker 1: He used to be in there where Valentine Is used 542 00:25:53,559 --> 00:25:53,720 to be. 543 00:25:53,839 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 2: Exactly, And so there's there's a there's a there's a 544 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,279 strip mall going up there and they're going to have 545 00:25:58,319 --> 00:26:00,799 a standalone brick and mortar building. So I don't know 546 00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:03,160 if we're breaking any news here, but it's partially owned 547 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,279 by Casey Stuttard, who's a former longworn and Josh Watkins, 548 00:26:06,319 --> 00:26:08,160 who's a chef, And it was my buddy when we 549 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,839 were eating there the other day, said, boy, you don't 550 00:26:10,839 --> 00:26:13,319 need a chef to cook barbecue, but it sure doesn't hurt. 551 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,960 And what he meant was besides the level of quality 552 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,319 of meat that they were using, because they don't I 553 00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:21,960 don't know if Jeff, I don't know if Josh smokes it. 554 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,839 They have a veteran of Valentina's down there, but they 555 00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:28,079 were doing all these side dishes. They had a slaw made. 556 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,279 It was like an Indian curry slaw and they roast 557 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,079 and toast all their own spices and then grind them 558 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,519 up for this real you know, electric curry flavor. And 559 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:44,839 they pickle strawberries and they char and pickle broccoli and vinegar, 560 00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:50,240 and so you've got those kind of innovations are what 561 00:26:50,319 --> 00:26:53,000 can we do to compliment the food. 562 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: But still serve pickles and slaw? 563 00:26:55,039 --> 00:26:59,039 Speaker 2: But still serve pickles and slaw. And it's just I 564 00:26:59,079 --> 00:27:01,440 don't know, you know than I do the different ways 565 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,599 you might approach smoking. I mean, I think what Evan 566 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,359 Leroy does with his beef cheeks with the process. I 567 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,319 think he calm fees them and then smokes them, then 568 00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:12,359 finishes them on the grill or something. So I mean, 569 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,039 I think things like that are going to push the game. 570 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,839 I think coming up with these complimentary flavors besides just 571 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,640 deal pickles and white onions can help evolve the game. 572 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,839 I think desserts can can change the game and make 573 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,960 it a more well, well rounded meal. I mean it's again, 574 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,480 if you go back when we talk about what barbecue 575 00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:34,279 meals are for and what they mean to the community 576 00:27:34,319 --> 00:27:37,200 and the place that they hold in people's lives, people 577 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,319 weren't going down thinking, oh, I hope we get some 578 00:27:39,559 --> 00:27:41,720 homemade buttermilk pie to go with this. You know, it's 579 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:44,240 just give me my basic banana pudding with a nail 580 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,039 a wafer on top. And that's fine. But I think 581 00:27:47,079 --> 00:27:50,079 you're taking and you know, it's always you gotta be 582 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,440 careful talking in these terms, but you're taking a humble 583 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,680 food product and you're kind of you know, to some degree, 584 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,880 you're elevating it. You're making it fanci er, You're making 585 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,119 it more thoughtful, you're making it more evolved, you're making 586 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,559 it more complex. 587 00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: And sometimes just having some fun with it. 588 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, because I mean it's got to be a 589 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,880 grind and it's got to be boring. I know that 590 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,119 you talk to these barbecue cooks and every cook is different, 591 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,920 and every pit's different, and every piece of meat is different, 592 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,119 and every fire is different and the wind changes every day, 593 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,799 so there are variables. But you once you get it dialed, 594 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,200 you you're kind of doing the same thing every day, 595 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,480 and that's kind of also, you know, in a set 596 00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:30,440 or something like, that's the beauty of it of you're 597 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,880 doing this repetitive thing over and over and you're. 598 00:28:32,799 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: Perfectable to Japanese choken and yeah, just the same process over. 599 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:40,039 Speaker 2: And over what you sit under a tree, right, And 600 00:28:40,079 --> 00:28:43,720 so that would be you know, I understand that kind 601 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,759 of philosophical interest behind it, but I think making it 602 00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:52,599 more dynamic and giving it more variables and more complexity 603 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,720 couldn't hurt, you know. But you know, I'm not going 604 00:28:55,759 --> 00:28:57,400 to begrudge anybody if they want to keep doing it 605 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,319 the way they're doing it and serving it. I mean 606 00:28:59,359 --> 00:29:03,160 that it's one of the great foods that you could 607 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,160 argue you don't jack with because this is how we've 608 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,759 always eaten it and this is how we like it. 609 00:29:08,839 --> 00:29:10,640 I got into a big text battle the other day 610 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,400 with a group of buddies because I went to Via 611 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,680 three one three Pizza and got a pizza with pineapple 612 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,200 and ham and bacon on it. Because i'd seen Francis 613 00:29:19,279 --> 00:29:22,359 Lamb from the Splendid Table arguing with somebody on Twitter 614 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,440 about why that makes sense, and he said, you know, 615 00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:28,720 the thing we love about tomato sauce is the sweetness 616 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,440 and the acid, and you find that in tomato and 617 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,599 pineapple apple as well, So it makes great sense. And look, 618 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,880 I'll never all I've lived in Italy. I love pizza. 619 00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:39,720 I love New York pizza. I understand people freaking out 620 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,759 about putting pineapple on pizza. I won't put chicken on pizza. 621 00:29:42,759 --> 00:29:46,799 But you know, there's some things that people think shouldn't 622 00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:49,480 be messed with, either because that's how we've always done it, 623 00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:53,480 or because that's how it should be. And now, you know, 624 00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:55,599 I think barbecue has been around longer than pizza and 625 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,480 America's been around, so it's probably got more reason to 626 00:29:59,519 --> 00:30:02,319 not be messed with in pizza. So if people want 627 00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:03,720 to do it the way they do it and serve 628 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:06,359 it with white bread or crackers and pickles and onions, 629 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,759 then far be it from some big city critic to 630 00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:09,880 tell them how to live their lives. 631 00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: Well, I think just looking at it statewide and eating 632 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,039 barbecue all over the country as well. The only thing 633 00:30:16,039 --> 00:30:18,680 that stay is constant about barbecue is that it's always changing. 634 00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:19,519 Speaker 2: It's interesting. 635 00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:22,839 Speaker 1: I mean, it's always there's always innovation happening. There's always 636 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,839 changes in procedures different individual restaurants, whether they be new 637 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,319 ones or ones that have been around forever. 638 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,079 Speaker 2: So, but do you think that was true thirty and 639 00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:35,079 forty years ago. Do you think barbecue in nineteen sixty 640 00:30:35,079 --> 00:30:36,960 eight changed that much to nineteen seventy eight. 641 00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:39,279 Speaker 1: I think so, because I think just the way that 642 00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:42,079 we share information now, I mean, pork belly burn In 643 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,759 isn't going to make its way to Lockhart from you know, 644 00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:50,000 the originator Heim Barbecue and Fort Worth that quickly unless 645 00:30:50,359 --> 00:30:53,559 you start sharing it on Instagram or start sharing it 646 00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:56,640 on other social media channels, and you know, it starts 647 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,920 to pick up steam. And now you can find pork 648 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,119 belly burn In's a whole ton of barbecue joints around Texas. 649 00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:05,319 Which that's that's only something that's been within the last 650 00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:06,319 couple of years. 651 00:31:06,119 --> 00:31:08,039 Speaker 2: Right, So what I think, So you agree and that 652 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,960 from the middle of the twentieth century it wasn't changing 653 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,240 and evolving that much. 654 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,319 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I think the I think we were. I 655 00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:21,519 think we had such distinct styles, such distinct regional styles 656 00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:25,240 and micro regional styles because all these different pitmasters were 657 00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:27,200 learning from the same people or the same group of 658 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,920 people and ideas weren't really spreading so much is staying 659 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,119 insulated within a community. So that helped foster a specific 660 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,920 style of barbecue in that community or maybe within a 661 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,480 few cities over. And now we have the ability to 662 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,640 share information in a way that makes those styles spread rapidly, 663 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,839 so that I mean, you could see just the people 664 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,599 setting up thousand gallons smokers in California doing Texas style 665 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,519 barbecue just like they do it here. You know, that 666 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,279 sort of evolution wouldn't have happened in those days without 667 00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:04,279 somebody literally leaving Texas who knew how to cook that 668 00:32:04,319 --> 00:32:06,640 style of barbecue and going to California and making it. 669 00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I mean, if you look at fine dining 670 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,359 in the sixties in New York City, it was all 671 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,559 French and stodgy French food. And that's not what dining 672 00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:18,400 fine or otherwise looks like today in America. So barbecue 673 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,640 is falling in line with other cuisines and that it's 674 00:32:22,279 --> 00:32:24,920 finally evolving instead of just having its place rooted in 675 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,240 the community and that's what people know and go to. 676 00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:31,400 It's you know the fact that these guys were these 677 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,200 kind of country barbecue cooks were on a podcast talking 678 00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:36,920 about you know, a guy coming from Austin and being 679 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,640 critical of their barbecue or holding it to a certain scrutiny. 680 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,519 It's like, well, podcasts and blogs and everybody obsessing over 681 00:32:43,559 --> 00:32:46,960 barbecue is part of what's changed this thing, because before 682 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,279 it was just the way people ate and it wasn't 683 00:32:49,319 --> 00:32:53,000 something to be critiqued and considered. It was a way 684 00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:55,000 to you know, preserve meat. It was a way to 685 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,279 feed your family. It was a way to feed a 686 00:32:56,319 --> 00:33:01,880 community literally and physically. And so now that it's becoming 687 00:33:02,519 --> 00:33:05,079 like these other cuisines of America and of the world, 688 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,839 you know, people are just thinking about it differently. They're 689 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,920 thinking about all sorts of food differently. You know, they 690 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,519 think about tie food differently in America. So, you know, 691 00:33:11,559 --> 00:33:15,640 I think it's become there's a consequence of that in 692 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,000 there as well. Well. 693 00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: I think we could go on about this for a 694 00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:22,319 long time, but I got a smoke brisket bond me 695 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,799 from Brotherson's Barbecue to get back to. If that tells 696 00:33:26,839 --> 00:33:30,920 you anything about the transformation of Texas barbecue, it sounds good. Yes, indeed, 697 00:33:31,079 --> 00:33:32,680 Well thanks for coming on, Matthew. 698 00:33:32,359 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: Odem Thanks about always a pleasure. 699 00:33:34,079 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, I look forward to more barbecue meals with 700 00:33:36,519 --> 00:33:37,160 you in the future. 701 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:37,759 Speaker 2: Me too. 702 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,599 Speaker 1: And now let's talk about YETI built for the water. 703 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,920 Texas barbecue is built from the ground up, from the 704 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,119 wood to the smoke to the meat. You have to 705 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,160 have the right tools to create a master beets on, 706 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,319 but your papers. YETI coolers have you covered. Built to 707 00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:56,640 be indestructible, keep ice for days and keep the brisket 708 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:01,640 hot for hours. Yetti, just built for Texas Barbie. You've 709 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,519 been listening to Fire and Smoke Texas Monthly's Barbecue podcast. 710 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,480 I'm Daniel Vaughn working with producer Brian Standleford, and I'll 711 00:34:09,519 --> 00:34:11,199 see you out there on the barbecue trail.