Speaker 1: What started as an intense relationship between two young parents
Speaker 1: quickly spiraled into one of the most disturbing murder cases
Speaker 1: the UK has seen in recent years. Shay Groves watched
Speaker 1: true crime obsessively, studied killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 1: and turned her bedroom into a shrine of murder. Then
Speaker 1: one night, she became the very thing she idolized, brutally
Speaker 1: stabbing her boyfriend to death as he lay asleep in bed.
Speaker 1: This is the story of Shay Groves and Frankie Fitzgerald.
Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
Speaker 2: and Grim, a true crime podcast.
Speaker 1: The following podcast material intended for a mature audiences. I
Speaker 1: don't know why, but the coffee's hitting extra good this morning.
Speaker 2: It does every morning for you, doesn't it.
Speaker 1: But it's extra good, extra good, extra good.
Speaker 2: I got my green tea steam in a way I
Speaker 2: haven't even taken a sip.
Speaker 1: Theres some serious steam billowing off that story. For interrupting, it's.
Speaker 2: Gonna burn my tongue, so yeah.
Speaker 1: That is cooking. Holy shit, Wow, it's calling my name though.
Speaker 1: You're gonna melt that foam all right? Off the microphone
Speaker 1: if you're not careful, maybe maybe this is an interesting case.
Speaker 1: We got some more true crime obsessed persons going to
Speaker 1: the dark side.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, usually I ask, well, what are we covering?
Speaker 2: And I have your intro like when everyone else is
Speaker 2: hearing the intro is when I heard what we were
Speaker 2: covering for the first time too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, typically I give you like an elevator pitch of
Speaker 1: the story. Yeah, like I'll give you like like what
Speaker 1: you guys heard on the intro. I'll usually give Nicole
Speaker 1: like that, or maybe once or two sentences more like
Speaker 1: a day before we actually record.
Speaker 2: Well, I think sometimes you also have to get it
Speaker 2: off your chest lately.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I do. Sometimes I do. I'm like, holy shit,
Speaker 1: this is gonna be quite the case. Guess what we're doing.
Speaker 1: And then yeah, I need like someone to vent to
Speaker 1: for a moment. But I try to keep it like
Speaker 1: to a minimum when I talk to you about still.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is gonna be fascinating though, because I don't know,
Speaker 2: we like our world is pretty pretty true crime heavy.
Speaker 2: You don't say, and yeah, I haven't really. I can't
Speaker 2: say that I've ever felt the need to replicate anything.
Speaker 1: I agree. I we'll talk all about that post show
Speaker 1: near the end, Like at the end of the episode,
Speaker 1: we'll go through some of that sort of stuff with
Speaker 1: the true crime world and the boundaries, I guess is
Speaker 1: a good way to put it. But I can tell
Speaker 1: you that there is one one line that a lot
Speaker 1: of people do cross that I'm completely, actually okay with,
Speaker 1: and that's stepping into the world of signing up over
Speaker 1: in our patreons.
Speaker 2: Gosh, I'm like, is he actually segueing that way?
Speaker 1: Yes? I am.
Speaker 2: Oh, that was good, but also cringe.
Speaker 1: I know, but I did it. So over on Patreon,
Speaker 1: we have a few people who signed up and they're
Speaker 1: getting that behind the scenes access and the exclusive episode
Speaker 1: that comes out at the end of every month. Not
Speaker 1: to mention, we're actually going to be doing a live
Speaker 1: here soon to get some input from our patrons in
Speaker 1: you know, how we can restructure our Patreon and what
Speaker 1: sort of things they want to see. So shout out
Speaker 1: to Kay's, Holly Herdier and Angel Marie who all signed
Speaker 1: up this week and they're getting that access to all
Speaker 1: those things.
Speaker 2: Awesome right on. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: I hadn't be doing this without you, guys, so thank
Speaker 1: you so so much. But let's get into the show,
Speaker 1: shall we.
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay. So it started like any other Sunday morning in
Speaker 1: the quiet English town of Havante, but only July seventeenth,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, something deeply unsettling was unfolding behind closed
Speaker 1: doors on Botley Drive. That morning, a woman named Vicky
Speaker 1: made a panicked call to police see her friend Shay
Speaker 1: had just shown her something on a FaceTime call, something
Speaker 1: Vicky couldn't quite process until it was too clear to deny.
Speaker 1: Shay had confessed to her about killing her boyfriend, and
Speaker 1: not just that, she actually showed Vicki his body over
Speaker 1: the FaceTime call. That man was her boyfriend, Fanky Frankie Fitzgerald,
Speaker 1: a twenty five year old father of two from Portsmouth.
Speaker 1: He'd been stabbed repeatedly, and his lifeless body was lying
Speaker 1: on the floor of Shay's bedroom, partially wrapped in a duvet,
Speaker 1: with cleaning supplies nearby and the scent of bleach already
Speaker 1: filling the house.
Speaker 2: Holy shit, and she's just phone in her friend. Yeh,
Speaker 2: look what I did last night. Now.
Speaker 1: When police knocked on the door a short time later,
Speaker 1: Shay answered in her dressing gown with cigarette in hand.
Speaker 1: Eerily calm over the situation. Frankie's murder would soon dominate
Speaker 1: headlines across the UK, not just because the brutality of
Speaker 1: the crime, but because of the strange and unsettling backdrop
Speaker 1: behind it all. Cichet wasn't just another woman accused of
Speaker 1: a violent act. She was something. She was someone who
Speaker 1: was deeply obsessed with serial killers, with true crime as
Speaker 1: a personal passion. Her bedroom walls were decorated with framed
Speaker 1: art of infamous murders like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and
Speaker 1: Rose West. She collected knives, weapons, boasted about studying how
Speaker 1: criminals covered their tracks, and even installed CCTV cameras in
Speaker 1: her own bedroom, partially for her own interest and partially,
Speaker 1: as we'd learned, for something much more manipulative.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: To anyone who'd been in the circle, Shay was a
Speaker 1: bit of an outsider, someone with a rough pass, a
Speaker 1: dark esthetic, if you will, and a growing fixation on
Speaker 1: violence and control. But no one could imagine that she
Speaker 1: would actually go this far. Over the next several months,
Speaker 1: the investigation into Frankie's death peeled back the layers of
Speaker 1: the toxic and disturbing relationship between the two. It started
Speaker 1: as a whole whirlwind romance, and it turned quickly into
Speaker 1: something much darker, filled with jealousy, powerful games, sexual domination
Speaker 1: and manipulation on both sides, and eventually it turned to
Speaker 1: a fatal turning point. So before we get into who
Speaker 1: Shay and Frankie were and how everything went so horribly
Speaker 1: wrong in this story, it helps to understand where this
Speaker 1: all took place. So let's backtrack a little bit and
Speaker 1: start before they even met each other. Havant is a
Speaker 1: small town in Hampshire, down in the southern coast of England.
Speaker 1: It's not the kind of place you'd expect to see
Speaker 1: in headlines about a murder. It's more known for being quiet,
Speaker 1: a bit tucked away with green space and family neighborhoods.
Speaker 1: Nothing fancy, but not the kind of town where people
Speaker 1: lock their doors out of fear either. Now, the specific
Speaker 1: area where this story unfolds is lay Park, a large
Speaker 1: residential suburb built after World War II. It was originally
Speaker 1: developed to provide homes for people whose houses were destroyed
Speaker 1: during the war. Over time, it's grown into a community
Speaker 1: of its own, filled with a mix of council estates,
Speaker 1: privately owned homes, schools and parks, a quintessential, nice little town.
Speaker 1: One of those parks was Stouton County Park, a big
Speaker 1: draw for locals, with walking trails, gardens, and a farm
Speaker 1: that's popular with families. It's a place to go to
Speaker 1: clear their heads, not just think about not to think
Speaker 1: about any sort of violence, let's put it that way.
Speaker 1: But just a few streets away from those peaceful woods
Speaker 1: and lakes, one of these houses would host this unsettling crime.
Speaker 1: Shay Groves lived on Bontley Drive that house. It was
Speaker 1: a house that she shared with her daughter and her
Speaker 1: longtime friend Lauren. Now, to outsiders, it probably looked like
Speaker 1: a typical home for a single mom, messy at times
Speaker 1: and busy, but you know, nothing out of the ordinary. Inside, though,
Speaker 1: the house reflected something a little bit different. The walls
Speaker 1: were covered in dark decor. There were also weapons on display, daggers, axes,
Speaker 1: and even a coffin shaped bookshelf. Now, there's nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with this decor by any means, if you ask me,
Speaker 1: but in this story, it was clearly a sign of
Speaker 1: things to come. However, that's not always the case. For example,
Speaker 1: I'm sitting just a couple feet away from a it's
Speaker 1: not ceramic but a plaster gold skull on our shelf.
Speaker 1: So I get it.
Speaker 2: Well, but the weapons is maybe not the best if
Speaker 2: she has like Kitto's running around and stuff. Right, it
Speaker 2: depends how if they're not in arms reach and stuff.
Speaker 1: I guess, yes, definitely, it depends on how you store it.
Speaker 1: You can have it displayed, but you know you need
Speaker 1: to have it safely displayed. Yeah, right, exactly. Now, to
Speaker 1: say that she wasn't displaying these or having them out
Speaker 1: of reach of her kid and stuff like that, like
Speaker 1: to say that she wasn't doing it in a safe manner,
Speaker 1: I have no idea. So I'm not going to disregard
Speaker 1: her parenting skills in that aspect. I know a few
Speaker 1: of my friends who have homes just like this, completely
Speaker 1: great people. They're raising kids as well, and it's a
Speaker 1: completely great safe environment for you know, raising those kids. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So in this case though, yeah, it might have been
Speaker 1: a bit of a precursor.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we can't judge, but for this one we can.
Speaker 1: Well, we can't judge, and I'm not going to judge
Speaker 1: on it, But in hindsight, it's like, Okay, there was
Speaker 1: something else going on, maybe I don't know. It's for
Speaker 1: most people ninety nine percent of the time, this has
Speaker 1: not a concern. It's not a concern. Yeah. Her bedroom, though,
Speaker 1: was having a bunch of pictures on the walls, had
Speaker 1: many pictures framed with illustrations of famous serial killers, and
Speaker 1: she kept a Celtic style dagger stowed away under her
Speaker 1: pillow where she slept, Whether for protection, ritual or esthetic,
Speaker 1: that dagger would soon be a centerpiece of this story.
Speaker 2: I do have to think, say, like the bedroom, though,
Speaker 2: if I went to someone's house and they had like
Speaker 2: posters of serial killers and shit on display, that would
Speaker 2: I would probably be like slightly alarmed with that.
Speaker 1: Well, I have no problem with people being like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, you know, obsession with the occult obsession with
Speaker 1: true crime. But I do personally draw the line at
Speaker 1: having pictures of serial killers. Yeah, because you're no longer
Speaker 1: just like obsessing over true crime in the genre, you're
Speaker 1: obsessing over the killers themselves. I draw the line at that.
Speaker 2: I mean, okay, like maybe if it was just like
Speaker 2: one and it was just like one simple little thing,
Speaker 2: I might be able to just pass by that. But yeah,
Speaker 2: there was like numerous and shit along with everything else,
Speaker 2: it would probably it would flag something for me.
Speaker 1: Fair enough, totally agree. Where am I here now? Right? So,
Speaker 1: if you met Shae Groves on a good day, you
Speaker 1: might not have guessed that she was, you know, something
Speaker 1: out of the ordinary, that there was something different going
Speaker 1: on underneath the surface. She was a mom, She had
Speaker 1: a loud laugh, She dressed in all black, and you know,
Speaker 1: leaned hard into the alternative esthetic tattoos, piercings, have a eyeliner,
Speaker 1: the works. I mean, I've got tattoos all over me.
Speaker 1: I understand. To some she was just a goth girl
Speaker 1: who never really outgrew the style like her parents said
Speaker 1: she would one day. But the truth was a lot
Speaker 1: more complicated. Shay grew up with a rough hand in life.
Speaker 1: She was born in nineteen ninety six, and from a
Speaker 1: young age things were far from stable. She experienced physical
Speaker 1: and sexual abuse as a child, trauma that's struck stuck
Speaker 1: with her well into adulthood. By the time she was
Speaker 1: a teenager, she was already struggling with serious mental health issues.
Speaker 1: In fact, she even started self harming at just thirteen
Speaker 1: years old, and around the same time she was diagnosed
Speaker 1: with bipolar disorder. Later doctors would also identify complex PTSD,
Speaker 1: likely connected to everything she went through growing up.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: At school, Shye didn't exactly fit in. She was partially
Speaker 1: deaf and wore a hearing aid, which made her an
Speaker 1: easy target for bullies.
Speaker 2: Oh, which is so wrong it is.
Speaker 1: On top of that, she leaned into a dark, horror
Speaker 1: inspired style. As I mentioned already, that made her stand
Speaker 1: out even more. People called her weird, so I'm even
Speaker 1: nicknamed her Chucky, after the possessed killer doll from Child's Play.
Speaker 1: You know that horror movie. Yeah? Yeah, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: said kindly of course either. Well kids are the worst,
Speaker 1: though they can. They can be pretty brutal when it
Speaker 1: comes to bullying and such.
Speaker 2: Yet, yeah, if you're any sort of different, it doesn't
Speaker 2: always go well in like elementary, middle school, high school.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, she wasn't one to follow rules or play
Speaker 1: nice just to fit in, though. If anything, Shaye seemed
Speaker 1: to embrace her role as an outsider. She was into
Speaker 1: horror movies, serial killer documentaries, heavy metal, and anything that
Speaker 1: made people uncomfortable. A lot of this was probably armor
Speaker 1: in retrospect, a way to protect herself after being hurt
Speaker 1: so many times. You know if people are calling her
Speaker 1: chucky and making fun of her for looking different, why
Speaker 1: not be different and own it right? It makes total sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now enterteens. In early twenty Sha bounced around a lot.
Speaker 1: She even ran away from home at one point and
Speaker 1: ended up CouchSurfing, staying with friends or boyfriends, mostly of
Speaker 1: whom sadly were reportedly abusive too. It was a cycle
Speaker 1: she just couldn't seem to break. Unstable living, toxic relationships,
Speaker 1: drug use, and repeat. Then at twenty, she met a
Speaker 1: guy named Ashley, and for a little while things looked
Speaker 1: like they might turn around. She got pregnant. She had
Speaker 1: a daughter in twenty seventeen, and for a short time
Speaker 1: she really tried to clean her life up. She stopped
Speaker 1: using drugs and started getting help for her mental health.
Speaker 1: She seemed almost happy at this point, but the stability
Speaker 1: didn't last. Shay and Ashley eventually broke up, and she
Speaker 1: found herself a single mom without a steady place to go.
Speaker 1: That's when she connected with Lauren, a childhood friend who
Speaker 1: had also become a single mother. The two decided to
Speaker 1: move in together and try to support each other while
Speaker 1: raising their daughters under one roof.
Speaker 2: Okay, I kind of like that plan, so do I.
Speaker 1: From the outside, it might have looked like things were
Speaker 1: getting back on track for Shae. She had a home,
Speaker 1: a best friend, and a daughter she adored. She even
Speaker 1: posted proud mom updates on social media. But underneath it all,
Speaker 1: the darkness hadn't gone away. If anything, it was actually growing.
Speaker 1: Now everyone has their thing for sure, for whether it's baking,
Speaker 1: or for others it's hiking or fashion reality TV. And
Speaker 1: for Shae, as I mentioned, true crime was a center
Speaker 1: point in her life. And honestly, we kind of already
Speaker 1: touched on it, like we live in the true crime
Speaker 1: world quite a bit with this p so hey hashtag relatable, right,
Speaker 1: But this for her was not just in the passing.
Speaker 1: She had Netflix on the ground, on the on in
Speaker 1: the background, constantly playing true crime documentaries, consistently consuming every
Speaker 1: free moment of her life kind of thing. It was different.
Speaker 1: It became her aesthetic, her identity and yeah obsession as
Speaker 1: someone who is you know, constantly diving into the true
Speaker 1: crime all the time. I honestly, I can get very
Speaker 1: I can get behind it to a degree that it
Speaker 1: can get very, very heavy and overwhelming and breaks from
Speaker 1: it are very welcome. So to say that it's on
Speaker 1: all the time in the background and it's what you're
Speaker 1: diving into consistently and constantly, that's a lot.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I've mentioned this before. I've I've done
Speaker 2: an eight hour road trip before where I just listened
Speaker 2: to true crime in the whole time, and when I arrived,
Speaker 2: I was like kind of fucked up, like kind of
Speaker 2: suspicious of everyone, and I don't know, my anxiety was
Speaker 2: a little bit over the top, Like it didn't do
Speaker 2: and it didn't do well for me.
Speaker 1: It weighs on a person heavily at times. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: the fact that she's going through, like through all this
Speaker 1: content of true crime and the amount that she's going through.
Speaker 2: It and assuming it maybe a bit too much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she's just enjoying it the entire time, Like
Speaker 1: when I listen to stories when I'm researching, like it
Speaker 1: weighs heavy on my heart, my shoulders. There's times where
Speaker 1: like I need to take a break and absorb this,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like I'm going to fucking break out
Speaker 1: and cry at times, like you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: And she's just going and enjoying it, and like, like
Speaker 1: you know what, it's different. There's a difference in the
Speaker 1: way she consumes it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not It doesn't really affect her in
Speaker 2: any way, poorly, it.
Speaker 1: Doesn't seem that way, Okay. Regardless though, things all ramped
Speaker 1: up around twenty twenty now during the first COVID lockdown,
Speaker 1: like a lot of people, you know, stuck indoors. She
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time online and deep diving in
Speaker 1: to these documentaries with true crime. Where most people watch
Speaker 1: out of curiosity or interests, you know, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Shay seemed more fixated on the killers themselves. And that's
Speaker 1: where I can no longer relate to her, because she
Speaker 1: wasn't just studying the cases. She was admiring the criminals
Speaker 1: and murderers. Specifically. Her bedroom slowly transformed into what can
Speaker 1: only be described as a shrine. And I told you,
Speaker 1: there's these posters a Bundy Dahmer, Rose West, There's Charles Manson,
Speaker 1: Eileen Warnos. They're all plastered all over her walls. It's
Speaker 1: not just a couple here and there.
Speaker 2: Holy shit. So she's going to bed and waking up
Speaker 2: staring at.
Speaker 1: These people exactly. And these were like posters she'd buy
Speaker 1: off Etsy with like blood dripping like art style, kind
Speaker 1: of like, oh, graphic type art, and this is this
Speaker 1: is her abode, this is her safe place. Now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it didn't stop there. There was also her interest in
Speaker 1: how killers got away with murder. She read about crime
Speaker 1: scene cleanup alibis police procedures like she was prepping for
Speaker 1: an exam. Almost She even installed the cv CCTV cameras
Speaker 1: in her house, reportedly for quote safety and to record
Speaker 1: intoment encounters as well, because it was also in her bedroom.
Speaker 2: Huh okay.
Speaker 1: Now these recordings, though, they would eventually become a tool
Speaker 1: for manipulation, but we'll talk about that in a bit now.
Speaker 1: She claimed all of this was just her style. It
Speaker 1: was her dark humor, and that you know, the art
Speaker 1: wasn't real photos, just creepy looking pieces she liked. And hey,
Speaker 1: she's totally got a point, totally fair enough. But if
Speaker 1: that were true, why did she also spend hours editing
Speaker 1: videos of her sex life to reflect this dark style?
Speaker 2: Oh shit, so it's okay. I was wondering if this
Speaker 2: was going to go that way, but and it does.
Speaker 1: It does. So she'd keep videos of her boyfriends and
Speaker 1: you know, from these security cameras in her bedrooms, and
Speaker 1: she'd keep them as quote evidence on these boyfriends. She
Speaker 1: would edit them certain ways to make them look like
Speaker 1: they were forcing themselves on her and such. Really, yes,
Speaker 1: and she would threaten to share these videos if they
Speaker 1: didn't do what she wanted.
Speaker 2: Holy shit, So were they even aware they were being filmed?
Speaker 1: I wonder most likely? Okay, and again we'll get into
Speaker 1: a little bit more detailed about that too. How about
Speaker 1: these videos and stuff? Now, this wasn't just a harmless obsession.
Speaker 1: It was a mindset one that glorified control, pain, and punishment.
Speaker 1: And the more she built her world around this aesthetic,
Speaker 1: the harder it became to tell where the performance ended
Speaker 1: and where the real Shae began. Blurring that line. So
Speaker 1: to me, it seems like Shaye was watching true crime
Speaker 1: to understand wasn't sorry, watching true crime to understand victims
Speaker 1: or injustice. She was taking notes more on like how
Speaker 1: to become the kind of person that she was reading about.
Speaker 1: That's what it seems like to me.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Shaye and a friend, Lauren White, they had known each
Speaker 1: other since they were ki. Lauren is the one who's
Speaker 1: moved in and raising their kids together under the same roof.
Speaker 1: They weren't casual friends. They had history. They'd grown up together,
Speaker 1: They'd bonded over being a bit different even, and stayed
Speaker 1: connected into adulthood. And then when both women became you know,
Speaker 1: single moms around the same time, it almost felt like fate.
Speaker 1: When they moved in together and you know, helping each
Speaker 1: other out. They raised their daughters under this one roof,
Speaker 1: and from the outside it was a good setup, right.
Speaker 1: Their daughters were close, They're co parenting, supporting each other
Speaker 1: there for when they need it. They were more like
Speaker 1: sisters their daughters more than playmates. Okay, Now, she had
Speaker 1: always been the dominant one in this friend relationship. Lauren,
Speaker 1: according to multiple people who knew them, was more reserved, quiet, accommodating,
Speaker 1: and often would let Shade kind of dominate the dynamic
Speaker 1: or make decisions between the two of them. Now, over time, though,
Speaker 1: that dynamic starts to look a little bit less like
Speaker 1: friendship and a lot more like control. Would do things
Speaker 1: for Shay that most people wouldn't ask of a roommate,
Speaker 1: let alone expect. Some were small things, should you know,
Speaker 1: wash her clothes, roll her cigarettes for her, But it
Speaker 1: went a little further. Lauren would even put her socks
Speaker 1: on for her.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's gone too far. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't even just helping out. It became routine.
Speaker 1: So these things were no longer like hey, could you
Speaker 1: do my laundry for me today? I'm busy. It was like, hey,
Speaker 1: why didn't you do my laundry for me? Like it's
Speaker 1: sitting there waiting for you go do it.
Speaker 2: It's not help like it's not healthy anymore.
Speaker 1: No, it's becoming you do my laundry. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Lauren was like a more of a
Speaker 1: living assistant, more than an equal partner in this household
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Now, there were also moments of psychological aggression.
Speaker 1: At least one instant was later brought up in court
Speaker 1: when Shay attacked Lauren with a pair of nail clippers,
Speaker 1: cutting her badly enough to draw some blood. Now, Shaye
Speaker 1: apparently did stop when she realized she'd gone too far.
Speaker 1: But again, one of those things is that it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: in hindsight, red flag. Well, I mean, it's a red
Speaker 1: flag if your friend attack.
Speaker 2: She's it's almost like thankful that she's realized she went
Speaker 2: too far. But I mean, she'd already she's already.
Speaker 1: Been going too far exactly. So then came the surveillance
Speaker 1: that I already mentioned. By the time the murder happened,
Speaker 1: Lauren was already stuck in a relationship that was less
Speaker 1: about friendship and more about fear. So fast forwarding a
Speaker 1: bit to the actual events of the murder, Shay woke
Speaker 1: her friend up after killing Frankie and asked her to
Speaker 1: help clean up all of the blood. Lauren didn't scream
Speaker 1: or run. She helped. She helped move the body, She
Speaker 1: helped clean the room, and when she hesitated at all,
Speaker 1: Shay reminded her, you're already involved. Now if I go down,
Speaker 1: you go down to and she like, you're on fucking camera.
Speaker 1: Oh here cleaning up a body. You're fucked.
Speaker 2: That's fucking terrifying because she probably also is worried that
Speaker 2: her friend will.
Speaker 1: Do that to her, exactly, so she's most likely terrified. Goe.
Speaker 1: All it takes is ten seconds for her to touch
Speaker 1: the body, like, because she's panic. Okay, what do I do? Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll help you move real quick while I'm still thinking.
Speaker 1: And now it's like, well, you're on camera moving the body.
Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, Okay, this is real messed up already, Okay.
Speaker 1: And Shane knew that she could use these security footage
Speaker 1: and things to manipulate people like that if you don't
Speaker 1: do as I say, you know, I'll show this footage
Speaker 1: to someone, whether it's your boyfriend, authorities or public or
Speaker 1: your work, who knows.
Speaker 2: But and like, sitting back listening, I'm kind of like, well,
Speaker 2: look at all the shit that it's going to be
Speaker 2: showing how terrible she is. Right, So I feel like
Speaker 2: the friend could still get away with stuff at this point,
Speaker 2: you know, if they like saw all the footage and
Speaker 2: stuff of the manipulation and everything. But then it's so
Speaker 2: hard to in the moment, you know, realize that one
Speaker 2: hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Yeah now. But in the eyes of the law when
Speaker 1: they arrived later on, it was enough to get Lauren
Speaker 1: arrested there on the spot, and she was actually even
Speaker 1: charged with failing to provide a pin code to her phone.
Speaker 1: She was seen basically as a possible accomplice in the crime,
Speaker 1: but once investigators pieced together the power dynamic and got
Speaker 1: Lauren's full account, those charges were eventually dropped, and even Shay,
Speaker 1: when questioned, admitted that Lauren had nothing to do with
Speaker 1: the murder itself. She hadn't been in the room when
Speaker 1: it happened. She hadn't planned it. She just caught in
Speaker 1: the blast radius sort of thing.
Speaker 2: Okay, good.
Speaker 1: So was she a co conspirator of Shay's No? But
Speaker 1: was she Was she more of a victim? Yeah? Probably?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say so.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now I think we've gone deep enough into these
Speaker 1: these two and in the crime itself. Let's back up
Speaker 1: a little bit more and let's take a look at Frankie,
Speaker 1: who is the victim of the story. Frankie was a
Speaker 1: twenty five year old father of two living in Portsmouth,
Speaker 1: trying to navigate life like a lot of young dads
Speaker 1: would do, balancing responsibility, social life, and relationships that, of course,
Speaker 1: didn't always work out. People who knew Frankie described him
Speaker 1: as funny, charming, and someone who could diffuse a tense
Speaker 1: moment with humor. He was known to be easygoing, the
Speaker 1: kind of guy who didn't like conflict and rarely stayed angry.
Speaker 1: His ex partner, Charlene, was the mother of his children,
Speaker 1: and although their relationship had ended, he was still present
Speaker 1: in his kids' lives. But Frankie had struggles of his
Speaker 1: own He was by far a perfect human. Behind the
Speaker 1: easygoing personality was someone who also dealt with instability. His
Speaker 1: life wasn't always steady. Let's say. He'd reportedly been dealing
Speaker 1: with substance use, including cocaine, and had a bit of
Speaker 1: a reputation for partying and unpredictable behavior, especially when he
Speaker 1: was under the influence. In February of twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: he met Shay at a local pub, and that's when
Speaker 1: everything started to shift. They clicked quickly. Both of them
Speaker 1: were young parents, both had a rebellious streak, Both were
Speaker 1: into rough sex, heavy partying, and pushing boundaries. For a moment,
Speaker 1: it probably felt like a perfect match for two people
Speaker 1: who understood each other, who got each other in ways
Speaker 1: that most people didn't. But as fast as they connected,
Speaker 1: the relationship also turned volatile. Just as fast. They began
Speaker 1: dating almost immediately, and within weeks it was an intense
Speaker 1: blend of sex, jealousy, fights, and making up again. There
Speaker 1: was a deep mutual obsession, especially around their shared interest
Speaker 1: in BDSM and knife play. So they're into some heavy,
Speaker 1: kinky shit and they brought knives into it as well.
Speaker 2: Okay, so the knife play is also involved in the bedroom.
Speaker 1: Yes. Now. Most notably, they explored kinks together, including quote
Speaker 1: not sorry quote consensual non consent, which is also known
Speaker 1: as rape play. Okay, you know, so pretending to rape,
Speaker 1: but it's actually consent. It is consensual. So it's consensual
Speaker 1: non consent. So we're pretending it's not consensual, but we're
Speaker 1: planning it out prior to and making sure we're on
Speaker 1: the same page and it is consensual. Okay, Okay. So
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, we're all good. Okay, I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: in the bedroom in ten minutes, you burst in. I'm
Speaker 1: going to pretend to scream and not like it, and
Speaker 1: you force yourself on me. That's the plans.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, So.
Speaker 1: It is consensual, but in the moment they act like
Speaker 1: it's not right. Okay, just making sure I'm really clarifying
Speaker 1: that because it is a very important distinction piece.
Speaker 2: Okay, because yeah, she's also filming this shit exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she is filming this shit, which is very important
Speaker 1: to remember.
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker 1: Their relationship was anything but healthy. They broke up, they
Speaker 1: got back together again, consistent they both accused each other
Speaker 1: of cheating. They regularly went through each other's phones, The
Speaker 1: fights got louder, the sex got rougher, and sometimes, and
Speaker 1: somewhere along the way, the line between that consent and
Speaker 1: coercion began to blur. By July, they'd only been together
Speaker 1: for about five months, but the damage ran deep. Frankie
Speaker 1: accused Shay of seeing her ex. Shay accused Frankie of
Speaker 1: messaging other women and girls. The CCTV camera Shay had
Speaker 1: in her bedroom was often used to record many of
Speaker 1: their encounters now. Initially, she said it was for fun
Speaker 1: to watch and even edit the footage into private videos
Speaker 1: to keep for later or whatever, right, but as things
Speaker 1: deteriorated between them, those recordings became something else. Entirely, she
Speaker 1: edited these clips to make Frankie look like the aggressor,
Speaker 1: and she threatened to release them to ruin his reputation.
Speaker 1: At the same time, Frankie wasn't innocent in this dynamic.
Speaker 1: Friends said that he could be intimidating and aggressive at times,
Speaker 1: especially when high and intoxicated. For example, he once texted
Speaker 1: Shay a threat, saying that if he caught her cheating,
Speaker 1: he'd hang her.
Speaker 2: Oo.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was volatile.
Speaker 2: I mean I probably would have say something like that too.
Speaker 1: Though, fair enough, fair enough. He was volatile, though, but
Speaker 1: so was she right their fights could turn explosive, flip
Speaker 1: to affection, and spiral once again. They were addicted to
Speaker 1: each other, and it wasn't love. It was obsession, dependency,
Speaker 1: and emotional warfare in all honesty. By the summer of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, Shay's mental health was visibly unraveling. She
Speaker 1: was using cocaine more regularly, often alongside Frankie, and had
Speaker 1: returned to self harming coping mechanism that she hadn't relied
Speaker 1: on for years. Friends noticed her withdrawing, becoming more paranoid
Speaker 1: and erratic. She told people Frankie was abusive, then begged
Speaker 1: him to come back. This back and forth fuck you
Speaker 1: love you sort of dynamic once again, right. She claimed
Speaker 1: she was terrified him, yet she filmed him in bed
Speaker 1: and made jokes about his performance. Their shared world of sex,
Speaker 1: secret and manipulations and violence even kept growing more and
Speaker 1: more unstable. It was almost like a teeter totter going
Speaker 1: back and forth, back and forth, and if you do
Speaker 1: it hard enough and long enough, that teeter totter is
Speaker 1: eventually going to break. Right somewhere along the line, that
Speaker 1: pivot point can only take to so much. But in
Speaker 1: one of the most unsettling parts of the Shay Graves
Speaker 1: case isn't just the violence itself. It's how deliberately she
Speaker 1: blurred these lines between what was consensual and what was not,
Speaker 1: especially when it came to that sex and power. So
Speaker 1: he kind of already talked about it a little bit,
Speaker 1: but at the heart of it was a dangerous combination
Speaker 1: of manipulation and performance. Shay was known for being controlling
Speaker 1: in her personal relationships. It wasn't always obvious at first.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it looked like charm, sometimes vulnerability, but once someone
Speaker 1: was close to her, she'd start to tighten her grip
Speaker 1: on them. She wanted to know where people were, who
Speaker 1: they were talking to, what they were thinking, and if
Speaker 1: she didn't like the answer, she'd find a way to
Speaker 1: twist the story or threaten consequences. Very much so like
Speaker 1: she's doing to her boyfriend Frankie, you know with the
Speaker 1: sex tapes. You know, I'll show people that you were
Speaker 1: an aggressor sort of thing, or what she's doing with
Speaker 1: her friend, her roommate Lauren, right through all of this.
Speaker 1: To me, it seems like with all the bad blood,
Speaker 1: all the violent sects. She was trying to build a
Speaker 1: narrative around her, one where she was a victim in relationships,
Speaker 1: specifically right now with Frankie, and that he was a monster,
Speaker 1: and building a narrative that she could control. By July sixteenth,
Speaker 1: two thousand and two, things between Shy and Frankie were
Speaker 1: nearing a boiling point. The relationship had already been volatile
Speaker 1: for months, with breakups, makeups, blah blah blah, we already
Speaker 1: know all that. On this day, it started with an argument,
Speaker 1: though Shaye accused Frankie of cheating on her again. This
Speaker 1: time she'd gone through his phone, a regular ritual at
Speaker 1: this point, but she claimed to find a message that
Speaker 1: pushed her over the edge, a message between Frankie and
Speaker 1: a girl who she said was thirteen years old. In reality,
Speaker 1: that girl was later confirmed to be seventeen, still a minor,
Speaker 1: and Frankie reportedly blocked her when she made the quote
Speaker 1: thirteen comment. But at the moment, the difference between thirteen
Speaker 1: and seventeen didn't really matter. Shaye wasn't interested in the context.
Speaker 1: The messages confirmed everything she feared and worse now in
Speaker 1: her mind, Frankie wasn't just cheating he was a predator.
Speaker 1: Fueled by alcohol, cocaine, and what she described as protective rage,
Speaker 1: possibly also digging up unresolved trauma from her own abuse
Speaker 1: as a child in past history, Shay's anger became something
Speaker 1: else entirely on its own. After a little while, she
Speaker 1: went into the bedroom where Frankie now lay sleeping on
Speaker 1: the bed. She grabbed one of her decorative Celtic daggers
Speaker 1: that she kept under her pillow. She raised it and
Speaker 1: began stabbing him in the neck. She thrust it deep,
Speaker 1: a forceful wound that severed his jugular vein and carotid artery.
Speaker 1: The first blow was a fatal blow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like that, you're done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, even if emergency services have been called right then,
Speaker 1: right away. Frankly, Frankie most likely wouldn't have survived.
Speaker 2: Lost too much blood.
Speaker 1: Yes, now, going through first aid training and stuff, because
Speaker 1: I was a first aid attendant for a while. If
Speaker 1: someone severs their jugular vein or an artery in their neck,
Speaker 1: they say, what you do is put your hands together
Speaker 1: like you're praying right and pray. That's literally what you do.
Speaker 1: You pray that they survive.
Speaker 2: You're putting your hands together on the wound.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, put your hands in front of your in
Speaker 1: front of you right now, like your fingers pointed up.
Speaker 1: You're praying, right and you take your thumb and your
Speaker 1: fingers and you go in the neck and you pinch
Speaker 1: the artery closed. So make the motion like you're praying,
Speaker 1: because you're praying. You're that they survive because they're most
Speaker 1: likely not.
Speaker 2: Like, that's the only thing you can do, the only
Speaker 2: thing you could do, and hopefully it works, but it
Speaker 2: probably won't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, her pinch the arteries, hope they survive, and pray
Speaker 1: they survive. That's it.
Speaker 2: Wow, she probably didn't even like was she meaning to
Speaker 2: do that hit there?
Speaker 1: To hit the arteries are her first blow and shit
Speaker 1: like that or on her first blow? Maybe not, but
Speaker 1: she probably meant to because she kept stabbing. In fact,
Speaker 1: she stabbed him a total of twenty two times in total, jeezuz,
Speaker 1: mostly to the neck and chest. The attack was frenzied
Speaker 1: and she did want him dead. She made sure he
Speaker 1: was dead.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, she was like you know, they say, the
Speaker 2: more time someone stabs someone, it's like rage killing, and
Speaker 2: she was though.
Speaker 1: Now when that rage wore off, shade didn't panic. She
Speaker 1: didn't call nine one one or an ambulance. Instead, she
Speaker 1: started relying on her knowledge and began laying the groundwork
Speaker 1: for a cover up.
Speaker 2: How the fuck would you cover this up?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't. She tried. Okay, poorly in my opinion,
Speaker 1: but she tried. She sent a text to her ex
Speaker 1: boyfriend inviting him over, possibly to try and create an alibi.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: She also messaged her friend Vicki, claiming Frankie had just
Speaker 1: left the house, planning the seats to suggest that he's
Speaker 1: alive and well outside of the home.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Then she walked down the hall and knocked on her
Speaker 1: friend Lauren's door. She told her friend calmly that she'd
Speaker 1: done him. Lauren followed her to the bedroom and saw
Speaker 1: Frankie's lifeless body lying in the room. Oh gosh, blood
Speaker 1: was everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Shay, still eerily composed, told Lauren they need to clean
Speaker 1: it up and figure what to do with the body. Now. Remember,
Speaker 1: by this point, she already has a firm grasp and
Speaker 1: control over her friend Lauren.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, because right now I'm just like, uh,
Speaker 2: you mean, you need to go figure this shit out.
Speaker 2: But yeah, she's already really set the groundwork for she has,
Speaker 2: she's worned to be help on her ear if.
Speaker 1: She can manipulate her to say, put my socks on
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, it's probably in a moment like this
Speaker 1: where she's panicked and scared easily manipulate her into helping
Speaker 1: her clean a murder scene.
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming there's just kids at home too.
Speaker 1: Probably I didn't look into that, but probably. Yeah. Together
Speaker 1: they discussed the possible options. They could bury him in
Speaker 1: the garden, framing it as a suicide, you know, they
Speaker 1: could dump him somewhere else, whatever they could think of. Right,
Speaker 1: And while this was happening, she did something that would
Speaker 1: haunt the investigation. She picked up her phone and facetimed
Speaker 1: her friend Vicki. She showed her friend Vicky Frankie's body
Speaker 1: on camera, giggling, laughing and making jokes, showing no signs
Speaker 1: of remorse after the fact, And when Vicky asked what
Speaker 1: she was going to do, Shay casually said that she'd
Speaker 1: clean it up and bury him, and then disturbingly, she added,
Speaker 1: we're still friends, right.
Speaker 2: What the shit? So she thought this was just fine
Speaker 2: and dandy and normal, she did, and she trusted that
Speaker 2: her friend would just not say anything.
Speaker 1: I guess either. Yeah, but that's not the case. Vicky
Speaker 1: hung up the phone and did what any sane person
Speaker 1: would do. She called the police. Now, when police entered
Speaker 1: the house on July seventeenth, twenty twenty two, the scene
Speaker 1: they walked into was nothing short of disturbing. She had
Speaker 1: greeted them at the door like nothing was wrong, pink
Speaker 1: RoboN cigarette in hand, acting like she was ready to
Speaker 1: host a brunch or something like that, not standing over
Speaker 1: a murder scene. But inside the house, the sense of
Speaker 1: bleach was thick when that door was opened. It was
Speaker 1: clinging to everything. It was obvious to officers that a
Speaker 1: hurried clean up up was underway. Now, she didn't resist
Speaker 1: to rest, she didn't even try to deny what she'd done.
Speaker 1: When they asked what was going on, her response was blunt.
Speaker 1: She said, he's dead, he's in my room. It's a mess.
Speaker 1: I took someone's life.
Speaker 2: And okay. So she's probably thinking that she's going to
Speaker 2: be able to get away with this, maybe from the
Speaker 2: footage or something that she has, or that he was
Speaker 2: like sleeping with someone underage, or I don't know what's
Speaker 2: going through her mind, but maybe those things like she
Speaker 2: thinks she is. He was like worthy of this.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about it, Okay, Her defense is self defense.
Speaker 1: Oh shit, yeah, but.
Speaker 2: Well he's a sleeping man in bed.
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll get back to that though. Don't worry. Now,
Speaker 1: this was the kind of thing you'd expect to hear
Speaker 1: in a movie. That's what the police thought, you know,
Speaker 1: not quite the suburban neighborhood. On a Sunday morning, uh huh.
Speaker 1: In her bedroom, police found Frankie's body laid out on
Speaker 1: plastic bags, with a pillow over his and a duvet
Speaker 1: partially covering him. The dagger that was the murder weapon
Speaker 1: was now cleaned but still wet, sitting in the bathroom sink. Lauren,
Speaker 1: who had helped, you know, move the body and everything
Speaker 1: clean up, you know, that sort of thing. She was
Speaker 1: also arrested. Now at the time, police couldn't be sure
Speaker 1: how involved she really was, and both women were taken
Speaker 1: into custody. During the initial interviews, she admitted to killing Frankie,
Speaker 1: but immediately tried to frame it as self defense. She
Speaker 1: told investigators that Frankie had flown into a rage after
Speaker 1: she confronted him about the messages on his phone with
Speaker 1: a minor, right, Yeah. She claimed he'd grabbed her by
Speaker 1: the throat, pinned her against the headboard, and began choking her.
Speaker 1: She said her vision started to blur, started to get
Speaker 1: tunnel vision, and she said she wasn't sure. She was
Speaker 1: sure that he was going to kill her. So, in
Speaker 1: that moment, pinned up against the head board of the bed,
Speaker 1: she claimed, she reached out blindly for something to defend herself,
Speaker 1: and she grabbed what she thought was her money box,
Speaker 1: which wh actually turned out to be the dagger she
Speaker 1: kept under her pillow, the one that she slept with.
Speaker 1: She said she struck him in the neck by accident
Speaker 1: and with what jo so happened to be the dagger.
Speaker 2: And then struck him twenty more times.
Speaker 1: By twenty one more times. But yeah, yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: her story quickly fell apart almost immediately. For starters, Frankie
Speaker 1: had been lying down when the attack began. The position
Speaker 1: of his body and the wound patterns and the autopsy
Speaker 1: findings didn't support the idea of a struggle whatsoever. In fact,
Speaker 1: he hadn't even fought back. There were no defensive wounds.
Speaker 1: According to the medical examiner, he was likely asleep when
Speaker 1: he was stabbed.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Then there was the footage the security cameras in the bedroom.
Speaker 1: Thanks to her CCTV system, the police had access to
Speaker 1: unedited recordings of her interactions with Frankie. Those videos, many
Speaker 1: of which had been selectively edited by Shay, you know,
Speaker 1: the sexual encounter ones and stuff.
Speaker 2: To make him seem like a monster exactly.
Speaker 1: The raw files that she still had and everything they
Speaker 1: panted a much different story. They showed rough sex, yes,
Speaker 1: but they showed it was consensual. There was no screaming,
Speaker 1: no struggling, no signs of fear. And when a full
Speaker 1: conversation was restored off like the cards and the files,
Speaker 1: it was clear that she had cut the parts where
Speaker 1: they were talking about what was going to happen beforehand,
Speaker 1: the precursor conversation, so that was even captured exactly now.
Speaker 1: Her alibi text that she sent right after killing killing
Speaker 1: Frankie also raised some red flags. She texted Vicki saying
Speaker 1: Frankie had left the house, tried to invite her ex
Speaker 1: over all obvious attempts to rewrite the timeline. And if
Speaker 1: she had actually acted in self defense like she claimed,
Speaker 1: then why were these conversations even happening in the first place,
Speaker 1: if he attacked you and you acted in self defense,
Speaker 1: why after his death are you inviting your ex over
Speaker 1: and telling your friend that Frankie's actually left the house.
Speaker 2: Yeah? And did she just forget that she was recorded
Speaker 2: all this shit at that time too? I don't know,
Speaker 2: because that seems weird to me.
Speaker 1: I think in her mind, she was just going to
Speaker 1: get away with it and didn't expect the police to
Speaker 1: show up at her door, didn't expect her friend to
Speaker 1: call police, and then she just started spewing bullshit and
Speaker 1: the evidence was too much. She didn't have time to
Speaker 1: try and hide it. And I have a feeling even
Speaker 1: if she did get time to try and hide it,
Speaker 1: she would have hit it very poorly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and see that this is questionable to me because
Speaker 2: someone who is like a true crime fanatic and like
Speaker 2: consumed it so much, I just feel like she should
Speaker 2: know what the fuck's about to happen here.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, not only that she didn't. She wasn't just
Speaker 1: a fanatic, She wasn't just consuming it so much, she
Speaker 1: was literally studying it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but she thought she could easily get away with this.
Speaker 2: That doesn't make any.
Speaker 1: Sense, right, And she was going to fucking bury him
Speaker 1: in her backyard garden. Yeah, and think she's going to
Speaker 1: get away with it. That's rule number one. You don't
Speaker 1: bury someone in your fucking backyard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's going to come back to you at some
Speaker 2: point exactly. Maybe not right away, but it will one
Speaker 2: hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Just saying, not saying that you should study and do
Speaker 1: those things. Just obviously get rid of evidence. Right, you
Speaker 1: do a thing, you get rid of evidence. That's one
Speaker 1: O one.
Speaker 2: But I mean when she was consuming maybe she was
Speaker 2: consuming other pieces, right, just the pieces about like the
Speaker 2: the murderers and the no bad people.
Speaker 1: She was specifically studying, you know, police files and how
Speaker 1: they capture people, how people get away with it, crime
Speaker 1: scene clean up, all those things.
Speaker 2: Okay, well then what the shit?
Speaker 1: Okay, so she was studying those things, yet she still
Speaker 1: had CCTV footage in her home, She still called and
Speaker 1: facetimed a friend. She also involved another person and was
Speaker 1: going to bury him in the backyard, all within hours
Speaker 1: of this happening. Yeah, you have those flaws already there.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I'm kind of shocked.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll just say that anytime we cover a true
Speaker 1: crime fan doing a murder, it always surprises me because
Speaker 1: there have been other ones and it surprises me on
Speaker 1: how bad they do.
Speaker 2: But also I feel like doing the act might actually
Speaker 2: play a toll on you and your mind and stuff,
Speaker 2: and then you're not thinking clearly or something. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to process this too and understand it, but yeah,
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: You have a good point. Maybe they're just fucking wannabes,
Speaker 1: you know, and.
Speaker 2: Then they actually do it and it's like, holy shit, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like Ted Bundy or something like that is a true
Speaker 1: fucking psychopath, you know. They can actually think clearly and
Speaker 1: calmly and make these decisions to protect themselves, where these
Speaker 1: people are just fucking wannabes and don't have that capability
Speaker 1: of thinking that way. That's actually a really good point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be high five on that one. Oh
Speaker 2: my gosh.
Speaker 1: Okay. Back at the police station, Lauren was questioned as well.
Speaker 1: At first, she wouldn't give up the pin code to
Speaker 1: her phone, which led her being charged arge with a
Speaker 1: non compliance under digital investigation laws. But as time passed,
Speaker 1: the investigators piece things together and it became clear Lauren
Speaker 1: hadn't be involved in the murder itself. She'd helped after
Speaker 1: the fact, Yes, under what she later described as intense fear,
Speaker 1: feared that if she didn't help clean up Sha would
Speaker 1: hurt her too, which totally understand. The charges against Lauren
Speaker 1: were eventually dropped, especially after she agreed to testify and
Speaker 1: tell the full truth in court.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's good.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, she was formally charged with murder, but she continued
Speaker 1: to insist that she wasn't the killer. Of course, who
Speaker 1: the fuck was then, Well, she wasn't saying that she
Speaker 1: wasn't the killer.
Speaker 2: She was saying.
Speaker 1: Reason she's saying that she's not a killer. I'm not
Speaker 1: a killer. It was self defense. Yeah, So she maintained
Speaker 1: that this was self defense and that her story. That
Speaker 1: was her story, and she's sticking to it. Behind the scenes, though,
Speaker 1: both the prosecution and the defense were building very different narratives,
Speaker 1: and each one relied not just from the crime itself,
Speaker 1: but on who Shay was and how she'd spent the years,
Speaker 1: you know, obsessing over serial killers. The trial was scheduled
Speaker 1: to begin in early January twenty twenty three at Winchester
Speaker 1: Crown Court, the very same court room in fact, where
Speaker 1: Shay's so called one of her idols. Rose West had
Speaker 1: once been convicted decades earlier. Dang, she probably loves that
Speaker 1: most likely, And yeah, that coincidence wasn't lost on anyone now.
Speaker 1: The defense strategy Shay's legal team leaned into her claims
Speaker 1: of abuse heavily. In fact, they described her as a traumatized,
Speaker 1: vulnerable woman with a long history of mental health struggles,
Speaker 1: including bipolar disorder complex PTSD, and they pointed to her childhood,
Speaker 1: the abuse she'd endured growing up in the pattern of
Speaker 1: toxic relationships that followed her into adulthood. Their goal was
Speaker 1: to reframe Shae not as a cold bloody killer, but
Speaker 1: as a woman pushed to the edge by the violent
Speaker 1: and unstable partner. They submitted edited videos that Shade put together.
Speaker 1: The edited CCTV footage that appeared to show Frankie being
Speaker 1: physically aggressive with Shade during sex, what the shit?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: The ones taken out of context she specifically edited together
Speaker 1: to make him look like he was raping her and
Speaker 1: beating her and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: No, that is okay now.
Speaker 1: In one clip even he reportedly made a chilling comment
Speaker 1: quote that was a bit rapie, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Huh?
Speaker 1: The defense used this as evidence of a relationship that
Speaker 1: had turned dangerous and exploitative. Shay also testified that she
Speaker 1: discovered the messages between Frankie and someone claiming to be
Speaker 1: a thirteen year old girl. On that this discovery, paired
Speaker 1: with the years of trauma, had triggered a panic response.
Speaker 1: She said that she was choked, pinned to the bed,
Speaker 1: and truly feared for her life.
Speaker 2: Wow, Cay, do we know for sure Frankie was cheating
Speaker 2: with this girl?
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they both were, by the sounds of it, Okay,
Speaker 1: don't know for sure, by what sounds of it those
Speaker 1: messages with the seventeen year old, Yes, were true, But
Speaker 1: I don't know the context of these messages. I don't
Speaker 1: know if it was like flirting, if maybe he didn't
Speaker 1: know her age. I don't know if they were sexting.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they were meeting up the message. Honestly,
Speaker 1: it was in court, So it seems true to me, Okay,
Speaker 1: but I don't know the facts behind it. And it
Speaker 1: does seem again to me that they were both cheating.
Speaker 2: And yeah, like it wasn't a healthy relationship.
Speaker 1: No, it was far from healthy. Yeah, and Frankie was
Speaker 1: far from a healthy partner, but he was not a murderer,
Speaker 1: and he was not abusive per.
Speaker 2: Se, right, because yeah, they were no good for each
Speaker 2: other at all.
Speaker 1: No, because well maybe he was abusive. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I should should not say that. At least in the
Speaker 1: sexual context, it was consensual right now. The prosecution, their
Speaker 1: case was a little bit different in how they presented it.
Speaker 1: Prosecutor Stephen paren Casey led the charge. He didn't just
Speaker 1: focus on the murder. He painted a much broader picture,
Speaker 1: one that portrayed Shay not as a scared woman, but
Speaker 1: as a master manipulator, obsessed with control, obsessed with revenge,
Speaker 1: and the darker corners of true crime. They started with
Speaker 1: the evidence tampering Shay's carefully edited videos, the ones that
Speaker 1: the that you know, the defense were playing in the courtroom.
Speaker 1: It was clear that the encounter with Frankie had been
Speaker 1: consensual in the real footage, and that the worst moments
Speaker 1: had been clipped out of context, with the pre imposting
Speaker 1: conversations intentionally removed to make Frankie look violent and unhinged,
Speaker 1: and they presented the real footage in court.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I'm like that's easy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So if the defense is like, look here he's
Speaker 1: raping her. There's a footage the prosecutors like, yeah, here's
Speaker 1: that exact encounter, not edited, not edited, with the pre
Speaker 1: and post conversations, you know, of them agreeing to this,
Speaker 1: you know, them laugh and chilling together afterwards, and like
Speaker 1: enjoying it.
Speaker 2: That's why I almost think it's crazy that the defense
Speaker 2: played this, you know, the edited Yeah, well that's ayraly,
Speaker 2: this is gonna not go down well well, And that's.
Speaker 1: Why they say, like defense lawyer, defense lawyers are generally
Speaker 1: pretty slimy because it's like, who's going to use that
Speaker 1: as evidence? Look, he's raping her. No, here's the real footage.
Speaker 1: Why are you playing tampered ship?
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's the conversation pre and posts.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Then came the timeline manipulation. The jury saw how
Speaker 1: Shay had immediately texted her friend Vicki saying Frank had
Speaker 1: left the house, part of this manufactured alibi she was
Speaker 1: trying to to come up with. She'd also invited her
Speaker 1: ex over shortly after the murder, likely hoping that if
Speaker 1: he showed up, she could potentially shift the blame to
Speaker 1: him as the murderer. Oh or muddy the timeline.
Speaker 2: Okay, that was the reason potentially of contacting the X.
Speaker 1: We don't know the exact reason, but it is a
Speaker 1: potential reason.
Speaker 2: Makes sense.
Speaker 1: Actually, Yeah, and perhaps perhaps most of all, her obsession
Speaker 1: with serial killers. And I say serial killers, not true crime,
Speaker 1: because that is a very important distinction. She's obsessed with
Speaker 1: the serial killers themselves.
Speaker 2: She's a fascination with them.
Speaker 1: The court was shown photos of Shay's bedroom lined with
Speaker 1: all the artwork of these infamous murderers, and the books
Speaker 1: about true crime, seeing cleanups and how serial killers avoid capture.
Speaker 1: Her notebooks, in fact, were full of journal style entries
Speaker 1: of how to get away with murder. As I mentioned,
Speaker 1: she was studying, and she clearly fucking flunked that test.
Speaker 1: This wasn't just a passing interest in true crime, it
Speaker 1: was a lifestyle for her, and the prosecution argued that
Speaker 1: she didn't just admire these figures, she wanted to become one.
Speaker 1: They even quoted her saying quote, no alibi is airtight
Speaker 1: and no murder is perfect. Both sides called friends and
Speaker 1: former partners. Vicki, one of Shaye's closest friends, was especially
Speaker 1: important for the prosecution. She testified that Shay had bragged
Speaker 1: about having dirt on exes and often used blackmail tactics
Speaker 1: to manipulate them. Of course, much of that would most
Speaker 1: likely be the videos in the bedroom, right yeah. She
Speaker 1: also described how Shay had giggled on FaceTime while showing
Speaker 1: Frankie's dead body and completely detached herself from the horror
Speaker 1: of what happened. Lauren, the friend and roommate who helped
Speaker 1: clean the scene, confirmed that Shay had confessed within hours
Speaker 1: of the killing, and that she had feared for her
Speaker 1: own safety if she didn't help. She explained the power
Speaker 1: and balance, the history of control, and how deeply manipulated
Speaker 1: she had felt. Shay also took the stand and told
Speaker 1: the court her versions of what happened, you know, finding
Speaker 1: the message between Frankie and the supposed thirteen year old girl.
Speaker 1: He confronted her, grabbed her by the throat, She couldn't breathe,
Speaker 1: She thought she was going to die, grabbed for what
Speaker 1: she thought was a money box, but a turnout to
Speaker 1: be a dagger, and it was self defense. She admitted
Speaker 1: stabbing in multiple times, including through the heart, and told
Speaker 1: the court she tried to stop the blood with her
Speaker 1: hand before realizing there was no saving him and the
Speaker 1: situation had just spiraled. However, no matter what she said, though,
Speaker 1: it became clear this wasn't someone who had just snapped
Speaker 1: in a moment or fear or was acting in self defense.
Speaker 1: This was someone who fantasized about violence, someone who planned
Speaker 1: for it and knew exactly how to clean up afterwards.
Speaker 1: By the time the jury filed back in the courtroom
Speaker 1: on February seventeenth, twenty twenty three, the air in the
Speaker 1: room was heavy. After nearly a month of testimony and
Speaker 1: eighteen hours of deliberation. The question wasn't really if Shay
Speaker 1: Groves had killed Frankie Fitzgerald. It was why she had
Speaker 1: done it and how much of it was premeditated. The jury,
Speaker 1: seven women and four men, deliberated a unanimous verdict. Shay
Speaker 1: Groves was found guilty of murder.
Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, that's not a surprise.
Speaker 1: When that was read out in the courtroom, Shaye didn't cry,
Speaker 1: She didn't scream, she didn't even flinch. In fact, she
Speaker 1: sat there dressed in dark clothes, a pentagram reportedly stitched
Speaker 1: on the back of her jacket. She sat motionless as
Speaker 1: the word guilty rang in the courtroom. Five days later,
Speaker 1: February twenty second, Shay returned to the court to be sentenced.
Speaker 1: Residing Judge Kerr didn't hold back. He addressed Shaye directly,
Speaker 1: saying that she had committed a shocking and sustained attack
Speaker 1: that robbed Frankie's children of a father, his parents of
Speaker 1: a son, and his friends of someone they deeply loved.
Speaker 1: But the judge also introduced a controversial idea. He called
Speaker 1: it a crime of passion, not a cold blooded murder.
Speaker 1: To quote him, Judge Kerr said, you loved the man
Speaker 1: you killed, and you killed the man you loved. The
Speaker 1: phrase crime of passion stirred mixed emotions. Some saw it
Speaker 1: as a fair description of how jealousy, rage and obsession
Speaker 1: had boiled over. Others felt it downplayed the brutality of
Speaker 1: twenty two stab wounds, an edited cover up and calculated
Speaker 1: plans to try and get away with it. And honestly,
Speaker 1: I wholeheartedly disagree with this judge personally. I don't think
Speaker 1: she loved him, not one bit. I honestly don't know
Speaker 1: if she knows what love love even means, And honestly,
Speaker 1: that's kind of tragic in itself for many reasons.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I fully disagree with the judge. No,
Speaker 2: because she didn't go about covering anything until after the fact.
Speaker 2: She was like super pissed off, right, and she did
Speaker 2: stab him like twenty two times, which is kind of
Speaker 2: like a rage passion kill of sorts. Okay, crime of passion,
Speaker 2: fair enough, But yeah, I don't know necessarily if I
Speaker 2: would say that she loved him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I disagree with. You love the man
Speaker 1: you killed, and you killed the man you loved. I
Speaker 1: disagree with the fact that it was love. And if
Speaker 1: he's referring to crime of passion as like passion love, no,
Speaker 1: crime of passion as in like overwhelming emotions.
Speaker 2: Sure, okay, because yeah, I think the passion part is there,
Speaker 2: but yeah, maybe not necessarily the love part yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you can have a passion for many things,
Speaker 1: like you can passionately hate someone, yeah right, you can
Speaker 1: passionately love chocolate milk, which I do. Honestly, I guess
Speaker 1: that's love, But I don't think I personally do not
Speaker 1: think she knows what love means. Yeah, you can't look
Speaker 1: at that relationship and everything between the two of them
Speaker 1: and say she loved him. No, point to one point
Speaker 1: of their relationship and tell me that's love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, their relationship was very passionate, but
Speaker 2: that does not necessarily mean love mean love.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, Either way, it didn't change the outcome.
Speaker 1: Shay Groves was sentenced to life in prison, with a
Speaker 1: minimum term of twenty three years before she could be
Speaker 1: considered for role. That means, at the very least, she
Speaker 1: won't walk free until she's fifty years old.
Speaker 2: Which, okay, I said this before. When people are young
Speaker 2: and they commit crimes, it's like scary because then there's
Speaker 2: this the chance that they're gonna get out and I
Speaker 2: don't know, but then they're in there so long and
Speaker 2: the hope is that they're rehabilitated and yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that is the story of Shae Groves and
Speaker 1: Frankie Fitzgerald.
Speaker 2: Huh. We also have to note too, like Shaye had
Speaker 2: a kid, that kid no longer really has a mom. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, like that, it's this so many victims really
Speaker 2: in this story, like Frankie, like his two kids, you know,
Speaker 2: his family's friends. But then also like Shay's kid, I
Speaker 2: don't know even even the roommate. The shit that she's
Speaker 2: gonna have to like go about now to try to Actually,
Speaker 2: she's gonna have PTSD exactly well, and because her friend
Speaker 2: just fucked her up.
Speaker 1: I feel like, and the friend who just got facetimed, Like,
Speaker 1: next she gets fucking face timed, she's probably be like,
Speaker 1: should I fucking answer this? Don't?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to answer this. Yeah, I would
Speaker 2: probably never answer a FaceTime call again in my whole life.
Speaker 1: I agree. Now, do you have a bit more written
Speaker 1: here in regards to this case? So let's go through
Speaker 1: this part.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So, when the news of Shade Grows and the conviction
Speaker 1: hit headlines in early twenty twenty three, it exploded across
Speaker 1: the UK and of course beyond. But it wasn't just
Speaker 1: the murder itself that caught people's attention. It was everything
Speaker 1: around it. The serial killer posters, you know, the coffin bookshelf,
Speaker 1: the Dagger collections, and the obsession with true crime that
Speaker 1: made the entire case feel like, honestly, it was something
Speaker 1: straight off a Netflix series. People were stunned not just
Speaker 1: because of what she did, but because she looked at
Speaker 1: first glance like someone they might know. Honestly, she was
Speaker 1: just like an everyday person Yeah, sure, you know, a
Speaker 1: little bit alternative style. But she was a single mom
Speaker 1: into horror movies and watched, you know, the same true
Speaker 1: crime documentaries that many of us binged. You know, the
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy ones are all the ones that are popular
Speaker 1: on Netflix and everywhere. Yeah, it made the story hit
Speaker 1: uncomfortably close to home for a lot of people. It
Speaker 1: sparked a lot of uncomfortable questions for people who love
Speaker 1: the genre, not just creators and consumers of the content,
Speaker 1: but everyday fans who listen to true crime podcasts and
Speaker 1: The Way to Work watch back to back dayline episodes
Speaker 1: on the weekend. Because Shay wasn't just interested in true crime,
Speaker 1: she idolized the killers. She didn't study them out of
Speaker 1: curiosity or understand justice. She glamorized their power. And that's
Speaker 1: the important distinction between her and honestly like content creators
Speaker 1: and the consumers of the content of the genre is
Speaker 1: it's the true crime versus the killers? Which one are
Speaker 1: you are you listening to? Which one are you consuming
Speaker 1: the stories of? And on this podcast we often try
Speaker 1: to tell the stories of the victims more often than not.
Speaker 1: And if we try and talk about if we are
Speaker 1: telling the story of the perpetrator. Like in this case,
Speaker 1: we're trying to dissect it a bit and be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: don't do this shit. That's fucked up, holy shit, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it doesn't really seem like le even in
Speaker 2: regards to her own killing, that she has any feelings
Speaker 2: towards the victims whatsoever, Like it just like it's mute
Speaker 2: to her. It doesn't matter. Like even yeah, her killing Frankie,
Speaker 2: it was just she didn't seem like she showed any
Speaker 2: emotion or regard that she took his life, which was
Speaker 2: like not a big deal.
Speaker 1: Which I don't know how to approach the idea of that,
Speaker 1: because as you mentioned already, like was she numbed? Was
Speaker 1: her emotions numb? Did she not know how to handle it?
Speaker 1: Was it something that she hit later on behind closed
Speaker 1: doors we didn't see. Was that actually her honestly, like
Speaker 1: with how she tried to portray herself and everything in
Speaker 1: the beginning, as I'm saying, many of these things were
Speaker 1: like an armor or her right. Did she even know
Speaker 1: how to react? Was she surprised by her reaction herself?
Speaker 1: There's so many questions revolving around that, like do you mean,
Speaker 1: was she sort of in shock maybe.
Speaker 2: And it didn't really her Her actions didn't come to
Speaker 2: fruition until quite later.
Speaker 1: Well, was she in shock? Was she putting on a
Speaker 1: facade and pretending because that's what she's used to doing,
Speaker 1: is pretend. Is leaning into this being like oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, this stuff doesn't bother me when people make
Speaker 1: fun of her calling her chucky. Oh, being called chucky
Speaker 1: doesn't bother me. I'm just going to watch horror shows.
Speaker 1: That Was she doing this to like put up a front?
Speaker 1: Was she actually a psychopath and a killer? Like that?
Speaker 1: Was she in shock? There's many questions that you could
Speaker 1: ask in regards to that perspective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of like, yeah, it would be interesting
Speaker 2: to have an interview with her, and I don't know,
Speaker 2: I want to kind of this is bad, See, I
Speaker 2: almost want to know more about her in the sense
Speaker 2: of is she have remorse now? And like is it
Speaker 2: something where we'll never know this? But does she feel
Speaker 2: like she wants to do this again?
Speaker 1: But that's the difference. That's the line between fascination and fixation, Right,
Speaker 1: You're fascinated with their story. You want to know more
Speaker 1: about her mind, how it works and why she didn't
Speaker 1: fucking panic and lose her shit. Yeah, she was fixated on.
Speaker 2: I do not in any way idolize her whatsoever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the difference. Yeah, it's a fascination of
Speaker 1: understanding and learning, whereas she has the fixation of, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I want to idolize you. I can't believe
Speaker 1: you're able to do that. I want to know more.
Speaker 2: How I want to be.
Speaker 1: How can I have that mindset that's that fine line.
Speaker 1: But where that fine line is and how to draw it,
Speaker 1: I mean that is technically up for debate. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: some people even think listening to true crime and doing
Speaker 1: this what we're doing is fucked up.
Speaker 2: They do. Yeah, some people out there.
Speaker 1: For sure, right, But we live completely healthy lives and
Speaker 1: we're not about to go and do some of these things.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like sometimes it almost makes me live
Speaker 2: a healthier life because I'm just like I think I
Speaker 2: just always have like an extra eye out for like
Speaker 2: weirds or or like is this person following me or
Speaker 2: or whatever.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if higher anxiety is healthy.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I guess it is desire anxiety, But I
Speaker 2: don't know. I just or I make sure my doors
Speaker 2: are always locked, and.
Speaker 1: I mean that's good.
Speaker 2: I don't know, it makes you more away.
Speaker 1: I guess it does. But this case, and honestly, this story,
Speaker 1: it's it had a lot of people questioning, you know,
Speaker 1: is the interest in the true crime genre healthy? Why
Speaker 1: are people drawn to this stuff? In fact, we even
Speaker 1: had someone recently reach out to us doing a report
Speaker 1: on the same topic on you know, the true crime
Speaker 1: and the questions around it and ethics and everything, right, right,
Speaker 1: So it's it's a big old question mark, I guess.
Speaker 2: M h yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's honestly that
Speaker 2: I know. Well, I guess I'm just trying to think
Speaker 2: because yeah, I'm going to trip back to that like
Speaker 2: email with the questions and like is it ethical the
Speaker 2: way I guess some people present true crime necessarily like
Speaker 2: we do it sometimes with some humor, and some people
Speaker 2: don't like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we get flack for that sometimes in reviews and stuff.
Speaker 2: But then a lot of people are like, oh, it's
Speaker 2: so heavy, and you guys like, lighten it up a
Speaker 2: little bit so that I can digest it, you know.
Speaker 1: Well, and that's that's the point of our humor in
Speaker 1: it is to you know, tell these heavy fucking stories,
Speaker 1: not only for a light in the load of listening
Speaker 1: to it, but also for b you know, taking away
Speaker 1: that that fear mongering power.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right, So when we talk about a very heavy case
Speaker 1: and a serial killer who's like, oh yeah, badass and scary,
Speaker 1: and we call him a douche canoe, we're not quite
Speaker 1: as scared of that guy anymore. It takes away that
Speaker 1: power that that individual sought to have. Now they're sitting
Speaker 1: behind bars, now they're rotting, and now we're laughing at them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's many reasons why you know, that lighthearted
Speaker 1: this for us, but there are people who question it too,
Speaker 1: there are. But there's also the question around you know,
Speaker 1: she had these posters, these pictures, the artwork of Ted Bundy,
Speaker 1: you know, Eileen Warnos and everything, Stabby Vibes only like
Speaker 1: a lot of that sort of stuff you can go
Speaker 1: and buy an Etsy. Right, what's the ethics behind that too?
Speaker 1: That's another big, big question mark, where's the line on that?
Speaker 1: Because like we honestly we have a piece of merch
Speaker 1: that we created with a it's AI generated. It was
Speaker 1: specifically purposed for an AI piece of merch right, And
Speaker 1: I did honestly spend fucking hours on it, altering it,
Speaker 1: taking into photoshop, doing a bunch of work on two
Speaker 1: So it's not just AI, it's AI assisted art, if
Speaker 1: you will. But this one piece of AI assisted art
Speaker 1: we have it shows a woman grieving with a knife
Speaker 1: in her hand over her like murdered husband in the
Speaker 1: kitchen seventies sort of style. Yeah, is that crossing a line?
Speaker 1: You could probably argue it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, oh yeah, this could be like a
Speaker 2: whole nother podcast and topic. But is there sometimes we've
Speaker 2: talked about it before. Is there a huge difference between
Speaker 2: consuming like true crime and listening to the stories and
Speaker 2: like the news, right, because they're both reporting on shit
Speaker 2: that's happened, like bad shit.
Speaker 1: And stuff they are so, I mean, people think about
Speaker 1: before even televisions, you like, look at like early footage
Speaker 1: like when cameras were first invented in like New York City, right,
Speaker 1: and it's like people are walking down the street, they're
Speaker 1: all on news, reading newspapers and shit, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: telegrams are what's the read all about it? I can't
Speaker 1: remember the saying that they do like headlines read all
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 2: Or yeah, I know what you're saying.
Speaker 1: It's often tragic headlines, you know, accident.
Speaker 2: There's always been a fascination. Yeah, what's necessarily the difference
Speaker 2: of how you're consuming it.
Speaker 1: It's no different. You're right. News is honestly a lot
Speaker 1: of the times true crime because they report the same stories.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not in the detail I suppose.
Speaker 1: But honestly, yeah, they do because much of my resources
Speaker 1: for researching these cases is news artists.
Speaker 2: That's true. That's true.
Speaker 1: So just saying hmm, you're right with that.
Speaker 2: Well, anyway, that gives us some shit to think about
Speaker 2: for the day if we didn't have anything else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's no easy answers to it. So if
Speaker 1: you think about it, if you want to think about it,
Speaker 1: go for it, fly at it, get it locked in
Speaker 1: your head, come up with answers if you want. But
Speaker 1: there is no easy answer. There's no definitive answer easy.
Speaker 2: Maybe just don't display a bunch of serial killer posters
Speaker 2: in your in your room.
Speaker 1: Don't idolize those dirt eggs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't do it.
Speaker 1: No, they're not worth it. Is Ted Bundy good looking, sure,
Speaker 1: but who fucking cares? He killed people? Is Douche Canoe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think yeah good looking or not? Like ugh, no,
Speaker 2: oh there's yeah. No.
Speaker 1: Charlie's Stharren played Eileen Warnos. Charlie's Starren is absolutely gorgeous.
Speaker 1: I wanted to vomit when I seed her as Eileen Warnos.
Speaker 1: No way, never, no, gross. Seriously, I have trouble looking
Speaker 1: at Charlie's there in the same after that, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: that's seriously just saying you know who Charlie's Saron is.
Speaker 2: Right, Oh yeah, okay, I do, yes, yeah, and just yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: well not no, we should wrap things up here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been a bit of a longer episode and
Speaker 1: a lot of ethics discussions and what's the word theories
Speaker 1: and stuff. I don't know what I'm trying to say, philosophy,
Speaker 1: a lot of philosophy and true crime at the end
Speaker 1: of this episode, and a lot to think on. But
Speaker 1: thank you for being here. We appreciate you. If you
Speaker 1: want to hit us up in a message with your thoughts,
Speaker 1: you know links in the description of this podcast you
Speaker 1: can find your social media as website. All of it's
Speaker 1: down there. If want to leave us a review. We
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. I'll give us a five stars if
Speaker 1: you like. If not, hey, whatever you think is appropriate.
Speaker 1: My recommendation is a five star.
Speaker 2: Just say yes, definitely our recommendation. If you've made it
Speaker 2: this far, I like you might think that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Either that or you're stuck driving on a road
Speaker 1: trip and your hands are busy driving and you're just like, God,
Speaker 1: shut up so we can get on something else because
Speaker 1: I don't have hands free at the moment. Those are
Speaker 1: the two options and why you're still listening. But thank
Speaker 1: you for being here.
Speaker 2: Until next time, Stay wicked.