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True Murder with your 32 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:37.920 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 33 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:41.799 The Angel Makers is a true crime story like no other. 34 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:45.200 A nineteen twenti's midwife who may have been the country's 35 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:48.640 most prolific killer, leading a murder ring of women, responsible 36 00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:51.920 for the deaths of at least one hundred and sixty men. 37 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:56.680 The horror occurred in rustic farming enclave in modern day Hungary. 38 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.920 To look at the unlikely lineup of murderesses, village wives, 39 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:04.400 mothers and daughters was to come to the shocking realization 40 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:07.879 that this could have happened anywhere and to anyone. At 41 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.759 the center of it all was a sharp minded village midwife, 42 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:14.639 a smiling Buddha known as Anti Suzi, who distilled arsenic 43 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:18.080 from flypaper and distributed it to the women of Nagriev. 44 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.159 Why are you bothering with him? Auntie Suzie would ask, 45 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:24.560 as she produced an arsenic filled vial from her apron pocket. 46 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:27.599 In the beginning, a great many used the deadly solution 47 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:31.120 to finally be free of cruel and abusive spouses. But 48 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:34.439 as the number of dead bodies grew without consequence, the 49 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:37.840 killers grew bolder. With each vial of poison emptied a 50 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:42.000 new reason surface to drain yet another. Some women disposed 51 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:46.159 of sickly relatives. Some used arsenic as inheritance powder to 52 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:49.599 secure land and houses. For more than fifteen years, the 53 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:54.439 unlikely murderers aided death unfettered and tended to it as 54 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:57.800 if it were simply another chore, spooning doses of arsenic 55 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:01.319 into soup and wine, stirring in to coffee and brandy. 56 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:04.759 By the time their crimes were discovered, hundreds were feared dead. 57 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:08.199 Anonymous notes brought the crimes to light in nineteen twenty 58 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:12.879 nine as a skillful prosecutor hungry for justice, ran the investigation. 59 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:16.319 Newsmen from around the world, including The New York Times, 60 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:19.240 poured in to cover the dramatic events as they unfolded. 61 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:24.080 The angel makers captures in expertly researched detail. The entirety 62 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:27.199 of this harrowing story from the early murders to the 63 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:30.360 final Hanging, the story of one of the most sensational 64 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:35.800 and astonishing murder rings in all modern history. The book 65 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.439 that were featured in this evening is The Angel Makers, 66 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:43.439 Arsenic a Midwife and modern History's most astonishing murder ring, 67 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:47.280 with my special guest, journalist and author Patti McCracken. Welcome 68 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:49.520 to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 69 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:50.479 Patti McCracken. 70 00:03:50.840 --> 00:03:52.919 Thank you, Dan, I'm thrilled to be here. 71 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:56.879 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book, 72 00:03:56.919 --> 00:03:57.840 The Angel Makers. 73 00:03:58.080 --> 00:03:59.599 Thank you. I appreciate that. 74 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:03.800 Talk about how you came and wanted to be involved 75 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:05.599 with this story and this book. 76 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:09.840 Yeah, well, I was a freelance reporter. I was living 77 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:14.439 in a village in Austria and I was, like a 78 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:17.360 lot of reporters do, just traveling down the back roads 79 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:19.519 of the Internet. One day kind of with an eye 80 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:23.519 out for stories, and I don't know what I clicked 81 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:27.399 into Google, but I came upon this story that was 82 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:31.120 written in a British publication. If I remember, it wasn't 83 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:33.759 very long. It was a few paragraphs and it was 84 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:36.160 written kind of tongue in cheek, but it talked about 85 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:39.879 this woman named Auntie Susie in this village in Hungary, 86 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:43.600 and it obviously piqued my interest. And my neighbor at 87 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.759 the time was a photographer named Harold. He's not a 88 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:50.399 professional photographer, but a quite a good amateur photographer. And 89 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:52.600 so I knocked on his door and I said, Harold, 90 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.879 you want to take a road trip? And he's like, yeah, 91 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:58.800 that sounds great. So, along with an interpreter, we went 92 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.360 to the village. It wasn't too far from where we 93 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:04.800 were living. I can't remember how far, but maybe one 94 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:07.319 hundred and fifty one hundred and sixty miles away, right. 95 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:10.319 It was just bizarre, you know, when we set foot 96 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:13.199 in the village. The village was very much like many 97 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:16.639 remote Easturopeen villages I've been in before. But it was 98 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:19.240 just a story that just stayed with me. You just 99 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:22.160 couldn't shake it off, and so it just progressed from there. 100 00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:25.399 I started with an article, and then the article it 101 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:27.519 just didn't go away. It just, you know how things 102 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:30.040 just kind of gnawed you like there's got to be more, 103 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:34.399 There's more to it, and so there was more. It 104 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:35.759 turns out there was a lot more. 105 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:38.639 You take us to what you write as part one 106 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:42.560 the Murders nineteen sixteen to nineteen twenty five. Now you 107 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.399 talk about you take us to the village of Negreev 108 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:50.800 and in Hungary in nineteen sixteen, and you introduce the 109 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:54.959 central character Antie Susie. But tell us about Hungary at 110 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:58.920 this time in nineteen sixteen briefly, and also the use 111 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:03.319 of midwiffery in Hungary at that time, and this relation 112 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:05.600 to this story as you began. 113 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:08.000 Yeah, so let me start with the first part of 114 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:13.120 that question. Hungary in nineteen sixteen was suffering greatly. It 115 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:15.879 had fallen from a great height in World War One, 116 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.920 and in nineteen sixteen. It pains me to even think 117 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:21.600 about it. I get because I can sort of visualize 118 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:24.519 it and see it. They had, for example, in Budapest, 119 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:27.079 which had once been a grand, grand one of the 120 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:32.600 grandest cities in Europe, was just filthy and ruined by war, 121 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:36.480 absolutely ruined. They had no medical care for their soldiers, 122 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:40.480 people had no food to eat. It was kind of apocalyptic. 123 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:43.199 I don't want to use too much hyperbole, but it 124 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:46.199 was a whore. And this was a proud nation and 125 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:48.639 in just a couple of years time had been really 126 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:51.480 brought to its knees, so it was suffering. The villages 127 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:54.959 didn't suffer as much because they had enough self sustaining. 128 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:58.079 They had enough food, they had enough, and they also 129 00:06:58.279 --> 00:07:02.240 had healthcare through their midwives. It's not unusual. It was 130 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:04.920 not unusual at all at that time for midwives to 131 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:07.959 be pretty much the doctor of the villages. They were 132 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:12.639 expertly trained herbalists. They knew how to use plant medicine 133 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:16.079 as the best of them, and they cared for the farmers, 134 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:18.680 they cared for the animals, they cared for the people, 135 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:21.040 and a doctor would come in, you know, if they 136 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:23.279 were lucky, they'd come in once a week and sort 137 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:26.639 of checked maybe the harder cases or cases, maybe setting 138 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:29.279 a broken arm or something, and possibly a lot more. 139 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:33.040 But generally for their healthcare, people all over Europe still 140 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:36.199 at that time relied on midwives in the villages. But 141 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:41.519 the midwives also had a rather mystical, magical quality to them. 142 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.360 They were called quote unquote wise women. They were also 143 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:48.000 I mean, I think the best word I could use 144 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:51.160 is like a shaman. So they also had a spiritual 145 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:54.519 quality to them that villagers I guess were in awe of. 146 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.079 They feared and respected at the same time, so it 147 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.920 was kind of a mix, that odd mix in between. 148 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:06.120 And there were other midwives in the villages who practiced, 149 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:10.079 but they were unofficial. They weren't appointed by the village council, 150 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:12.439 as my main character, Auntie Susie was. 151 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:18.279 You also talk about how she was appointed this incredible position, 152 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:22.000 but also another person named Edner was also on the 153 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:22.800 city council. 154 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:25.959 Yes, yeah, Edner was pretty much ran the show in 155 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:29.560 the village and he was a member of the gentry class, 156 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:34.000 so he was had an esteemed role in Hungary itself, 157 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:37.759 just because he's born into a higher class, if I 158 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:42.320 could use that word. And the villagers were peasants, you know, 159 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:45.639 they were the common folk. So Edner was pretty much appointed. 160 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:47.960 It was a lifetime, I mean, to get that position 161 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:50.639 and you just stay with it. So that was common. Again, 162 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.360 that was common among all the villages in Europe. It 163 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:55.519 wasn't or at least in Hungary, I should say, it 164 00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:58.000 wasn't unusual to inaugurate. 165 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:01.440 You right that she received a healthy salary, but she 166 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:06.399 could also was allowed to exact fees from her patients. 167 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:09.120 But there was a rule that she wasn't supposed to 168 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:11.879 get anything from the poor. But you write that she 169 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:16.320 managed to get something from everybody. In the transactions that 170 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:19.519 she did tell us what her role was as midwife 171 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:23.440 in this community, and also what the role of this 172 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:26.919 old doctor Sagetity what his role was. 173 00:09:27.639 --> 00:09:31.360 So her role was really like any midwife. She would 174 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.000 be there for any kind of medical conditions, any of 175 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:38.519 the So for example, the farmers, this is a farming community. 176 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:42.159 A farmer might come to her with some pains, you know, 177 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:45.080 he hurt himself in the fields, or he's gotten a 178 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.480 hernia something like that, so she would go and administer 179 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:51.919 his health care. They also administer the healthcare that was 180 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:55.840 beyond the farmers to administer for their animals, for their livestock. 181 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:59.440 She would also be available kind of like a counselor 182 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:02.279 as well well. In that role, she would be the 183 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:04.919 one they would go to mostly the women would go 184 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:09.279 to for card readings and divining information and that's it 185 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:11.320 kind of thing. So she was kind of a one 186 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:15.440 stop shop for everything basically in that sense, their spiritual 187 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:19.559 and mental and physical health, I guess. And doctor Segeti 188 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:24.080 was just a classic old doctor who would come in 189 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:27.919 with this black medical bag and treat patients once a week. 190 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:32.080 He came on Tuesdays, but he couldn't get in most 191 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:35.840 of the year because the roads there would get washed 192 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:39.840 out in the winter. So pretty much from the winter season, 193 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:44.000 you know, November through March or April or October through April, 194 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:46.159 couldn't get there. I mean you'd really have to use 195 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:50.320 let's say, a lot of horsepower, right, and so a 196 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:52.360 lot of times they wouldn't see him for months. But 197 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:54.399 when they did see him, they would make an appointment 198 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:56.480 with them, you know, just like we make an appointment 199 00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:57.919 to go to the doctor. They would go to the 200 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:01.200 village hall and the helper, the out the town crier 201 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:05.279 who was sort of the right hand helper man to Ebner, 202 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:07.759 would make an appointment for them. But a lot of 203 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:10.600 times anything they had either cleared up but before he 204 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:14.120 got there, or they went to Auntie Susie presumably or something. 205 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:16.919 But yeah, he was like a typical doctor who would 206 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:19.159 come with a black bag and do what he could 207 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:23.039 and administer potions, you know, medicines and stuff. She administered 208 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:26.000 potions and he would administer medicines. If you want to 209 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:27.320 put a fine point on it. 210 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.360 There was a woman you introduced named Anna Scissor, and 211 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:35.000 she has a dilemma that she discusses with Auntie Susie. 212 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:41.279 And you also introduced one of the secret solutions ointments 213 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:45.720 that she had concocted Auntie Susie, and the materials that 214 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:47.320 she used in this concoction. 215 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:51.559 This would be Anna Chair. And so sometimes the last 216 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:54.360 names are sometimes a little bit hard to pronounce. But 217 00:11:55.080 --> 00:12:00.559 what specifically are you talking about with Anna the special 218 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:03.919 solution that Auntie Susie used on many many people. Is 219 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:05.120 that what you're talking about? 220 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.320 Well, right away you talk about this solution and the 221 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:11.519 fly paper that was used and the vinegar that she 222 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:14.039 uses to reduce down this concoction. 223 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:17.200 I think with what Susie would do is she would 224 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:21.519 go over to the store on the main street and 225 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.240 she would buy perhaps a bundle or two of a flypaper, 226 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:27.759 and then she would go back to her kitchen and 227 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:32.519 she would painstakingly distill from the flypaper arsenic and then 228 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:36.240 she would put that potion of arsenic into a vial. 229 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:40.240 And she usually kept a vial with her in her 230 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.799 apron pocket. So if you imagine like a babushka who 231 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:46.840 wears sort of dark clothing and an apron that's that's 232 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:49.559 a good way to imagine Auntie Susie kind of always 233 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:52.120 wearing the same kind of clothing and such, and she 234 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:56.600 would kept this vial with her and she would go 235 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.600 often to the neighbor women and she would say, sort 236 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:02.519 of poke her nose and she was gonna go, what's 237 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:05.799 going on with your husband? You know, how's everything going? 238 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:08.799 And when there was trouble that she sniffed out, she 239 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:10.840 would say, you know, why are you bothering with him? 240 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:14.120 I have a solution, And then she would literally pull 241 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:17.559 a solution out of her pocket, there it was, and 242 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:18.360 offer it to them. 243 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:22.759 Wow, in her powers as the midwife of this village, 244 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:27.039 she was also responsible for the determination of the cause 245 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:30.720 of death. Now, even though she was responsible for that, 246 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:37.240 can you explain how this old doctor Sagedni really worked 247 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:38.000 to her benefit. 248 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:42.360 Well, he had once been, as I understood it, a 249 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:46.799 pretty vital, clever doctor and pretty respected. He was on 250 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:51.639 lots of boards in the town nearest Nagarev in Soulnolk, 251 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:54.480 and he was on he was a pretty influential but 252 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:57.320 he was a very involved doctor. But he was an 253 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:00.919 older doctor by this point, and he had a bit 254 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:05.000 of a drinking problem and was just past his prime. 255 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:08.519 And so the fact that is alcohol, and I kind 256 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:12.000 of presumed the fact that he knew Auntie Susie and 257 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:14.879 trusted her, He didn't really question her. So I think 258 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:16.720 it was sort of a it's never really one thing, 259 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.039 is it. It's sort of a combination of things that 260 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:22.240 made people turn another turn a blind eye to things. 261 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:25.600 But he did have a liked alcohol quite a bit, 262 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:27.480 and he was a quite older guy, and I think 263 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.559 he just was kind of a doddying old man at 264 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.679 a certain point. It's not very effective as he had 265 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:35.279 been in his earlier years. 266 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:39.200 Now what happens in regard to his replacement? Who is 267 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:43.320 the replacement and does that cause any concern for somebody 268 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.080 like Auntie Susie. 269 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:51.480 Yeah, Well, the replacement was his son, who was like 270 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:55.720 how he had been in his earlier years. He was younger, 271 00:14:55.960 --> 00:14:59.519 more enthusiastic, wanting to make changes. You know, anytime you 272 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:01.200 get a new job, you want to sort of make 273 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.000 your mark. And when he comes along, it's after the 274 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:09.519 war and Hungary is on a kind of mission to 275 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:13.159 modernize the villages as far as medicine is concerned, and 276 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:16.960 so he's very enthusiastically involved with that, and so he 277 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:20.080 kind of comes in with the fresh eye and yeah, Auntie, 278 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:23.639 Susie is very alarmed. Her little system has been disrupted 279 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:27.039 and she's put on alert for a time now. 280 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.519 We talked about some of the things that Susie used 281 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:34.440 this special solution for and the people she called upon, 282 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:37.720 and you write about some of the problems that she 283 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.759 thought she was taking care of, very much like keeping 284 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:44.159 the population down, a boy and a girl in each family, 285 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.559 and she just thought was part of her duty as 286 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:49.879 a midwife. Tell us what happens in regards to the 287 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:52.639 replacement doctor and why. 288 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.720 Yeah, well, this is a good time to introduce the 289 00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:00.960 notion that midwives were not just delivering the babies and villages. 290 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:04.320 Midwives are also the family planners. This is not new. 291 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:08.960 That's how family planning has been going on since the ages. Normally, 292 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:12.600 what they would do, and normally what Susie did was 293 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:16.080 to use very equivalent of an abortion pill, which would 294 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:20.039 be a plant medicine to abort an unwanted pregnancy. They 295 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:23.120 would also try to and I don't have the knowledge 296 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:25.480 to speak to this, but also try to use birth 297 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.559 control methods in the first place, so pregnancy doesn't occur. 298 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:30.960 But when a pregnancy would occur is they would use 299 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.840 an herbal medicine to try to halt the pregnancy. In 300 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.639 some cases, which I do think were rare, the pregnancy 301 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.720 was carried to term and it was an unwanted or 302 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.720 unable to care for a baby through poverty, and so 303 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.720 the solution she used for other purposes, which was usually 304 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.240 to get rid of abusive husbands, was used on babies. 305 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:54.960 But I do want to make it clear that was 306 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:59.399 not something that was done commonly. It was something that 307 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.279 was done when the pregnancy was carried to termine it 308 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:04.519 was clear that the mother would not be able to 309 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:05.400 take care of the baby. 310 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:09.480 How does it come to be that the replacement, the 311 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:15.039 younger doctor Sageity, How Auntie, Susie and anyone else came 312 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.200 to be the focus of his attention? What happened? 313 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.920 Yeah, So he comes in, he's, you know, taking over 314 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:25.920 from the old doctor Segety. And he comes in and 315 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:30.119 he's asking to review the logs. I want to see 316 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:33.480 the death records and the birth records. And he does 317 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.960 see a surprising trend where he says, Wow, all these 318 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.039 families in the last X number of years, so many 319 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.559 of them only have two children and they're a boy 320 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:47.960 and a girl. That's odd, you know, that's an unusual thing. 321 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:51.279 And so he is very suspicious and he takes that 322 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:54.799 to the gendarmes. And gendarmes are really is just a 323 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.640 French word for local police, excuse me, or country police 324 00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:02.839 in the countryside. So he takes his suspicions to the authorities. 325 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:05.240 And it's worth noting at this point that there were 326 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:09.160 no gendarmes in Naugarev. The gendarmes were over in a 327 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:12.640 neighboring a neighboring village of Tissa Kurt, a neighboring village, 328 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:15.279 but a village hard to get to, nonetheless, But anyway, 329 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:18.920 he takes his concerns there and starts raising all kinds 330 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:19.519 of alarms. 331 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:24.480 Those raising alarms and the gendarmes, how what is their 332 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:27.079 response to this investigation. 333 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:32.160 Bring in the midwife, bring her in, you know, hauler 334 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:36.079 into the village hall and start doing what any police 335 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:39.119 officer would, well maybe not any They were quite harsh, 336 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.319 and they were known to be quite harsh. It wasn't 337 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:43.880 a friendly questioning. So they brought her into the village 338 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.880 heart and the village hall, and they said what are 339 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:50.559 you doing? We know you're doing something. What are you doing? Confess? Look, 340 00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:54.240 we've got all these logs here showing what you've been doing. 341 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:57.519 And so it was quite a little scene there. 342 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:00.200 As far as this scene that you talk about, was 343 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.839 reluctant to say anything, but at some point she does 344 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.880 what's considered a confession. But in this it is very 345 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:13.000 revealing her true attitude about these deaths. What does she 346 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:15.839 say in response to their questions? 347 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:19.799 Finally, yeah, Well, she goes in there thinking that she's like, 348 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:24.079 all right, this is a my life of distributing arsenic 349 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:27.720 to the neighbors to get rid of abusive husbands, which 350 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:31.559 was much more prolific than her the family planning. She thought, 351 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.119 this is this is it I'm done for And then 352 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.599 she realizes, oh wait, that's not what I'm in here for. 353 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.119 I'm in here for the abortions. Well, yeah, I'm an abortionist, 354 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:44.240 that's what. Yeah, then that's what they used to call abortionists. 355 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:46.359 They used to call them angel makers. She's yes, I'm 356 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:48.640 an angel maker, of course i am. Well, also, do 357 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:51.480 you think we would not have children? We're peasants and 358 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:54.640 we're poor and we can't afford you know, ten babies. 359 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:58.759 So you know, her logic was, yes, I do that. 360 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:01.279 I know, how can I I sit here and let 361 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.640 families have ten babies and let these babies starve to death. 362 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:07.160 The lesser evil is to put them out of their 363 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:08.039 misery earlier. 364 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:12.400 So with that response, they arrested her. She has taken 365 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:15.440 into custody and she's put it in a pretty severe 366 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:17.519 conditions in prison, isn't she. 367 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:20.079 Yeah, prisons were no fun at that time. 368 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:24.599 He has the support of her family and they pull 369 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:27.119 their money together to get a very one of the 370 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:31.559 better attorneys in the area to represent the family member. 371 00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:36.480 He advises her to recant this confession and then they 372 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:40.839 go to trial. What happens at this trial tell us. 373 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:43.839 She gets convicted. So she did what he said to do, 374 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:46.559 and she said, I didn't do it, and the gend 375 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.799 arms are really mean to me, and they forced they 376 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:52.640 forced the confession out of me that that's not true. 377 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.240 I just they were beating me up. And to get 378 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.799 them to stop beating me, I said, yeah, you know, 379 00:20:57.799 --> 00:20:59.519 I said, yes, I did it, but I really didn't 380 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:02.559 do it. And this is not a jury trial, this 381 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:06.400 is just a judge and too cohorts And she was 382 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.039 convicted the first time. 383 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:12.000 Yes, well, with that, her attorneys make the obvious appeal, 384 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:14.720 and I don't know if it's a surprised but she 385 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.480 is released on a bail waiting for this retrial. 386 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:19.359 Yes, you're right. 387 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:22.319 It's very interesting when she goes back to that village 388 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.519 how she was regarded before she was taken away for 389 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.319 this questioning, it's a little different. When she goes back, 390 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.920 she is stripped of her powers as this midwife. She 391 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:35.640 is looking at possibly losing the house that was given 392 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:38.400 to her as well, and so she is very worried 393 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:43.480 she's penniless, and also she is looking at things much 394 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:48.519 differently given this appeal that's going to lead to this retrial. 395 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:51.359 Tell us what she does in the interim and then 396 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:53.880 finally the retrol Auntie. 397 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:58.240 Susie was afraid of Primarily the thing she feared most 398 00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:03.680 was losing her her house and losing her family, the 399 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:07.319 people closest to her. So, after panicking for a bit, 400 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:12.079 she used her influence with the village council that she 401 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:16.480