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Speaker 1: If you want to support the show and get the

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Beyond the Wall dot com, forward slash Support. There's a

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Three there's Patreon. Four there's substack. And now I've introduced

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gum Road because I know that a lot of our

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guys are on gum road and they are again censorship.

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So if you head over to gum Road and you

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subscribe through there, you'll get the episodes early and ad free,

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and you'll get an invite into the Telegram group. So

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I really appreciate all the support everyone's giving me, and

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I hope to expand the show even more than it

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already has. Thank you so much. I want to welcome

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everyone back to the Pekingona Show. Will Tanner is here. Hey,

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doing well, doing well? What about you doing good man?

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First time on the show. Tell everybody a little bit

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about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I just graduated from law school the spring,

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which is why I've been pretty quiet on the internet

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up till now. I just busy hitting the books so

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and then through that I've kind of been working in

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digital marketing and on the Internet for a while now

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started speaking out more on Twitter. It happened to have

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a thread on Rhodesia Go New Clear and take off

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and get it, I think up now we're almost up

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to eight million views on it, which was fun. Back

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sometime August, I think, and since then just kind of

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been writing about that sort of thing on Twitter and

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on my sub stack, and yeah, mainly focus on European

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life up till the Guns of August in nineteen fourteen,

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and then also on decolonization in the sixties and seventies.

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Got my two areas I enjoy writing.

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Speaker 1: About cool Well, I mean, I invited you to come

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on to talk about Rhodisha give an overview, So I

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guess where to start. How did you get in? How

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did you get interested in the topic?

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Speaker 2: I have a pretty tangled backstory getting into it, probably

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not one of the normal ways. But when I was

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like ten, I found a book about Eric Prince in

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my local Barnes and Noble and thought it was just

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the coolest thing and he was the coolest guy. And

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through him I found out about Soldier of Fortune magazine,

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and around the time I was getting interested in all that.

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The guy who founded it, I believe, Robert Brown, wrote

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an autobiography called Dancing with Devils, and in it he

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tells this awesome story about smuggling guns Drohodesia through his

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local small town airport because he knew the guy who

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had handled baggage. So he just smiled away to the

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guy and sneak into Rhodesia a couple of Duffel bags

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full of Ruger Mini fourteens and banana bags for him

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and hand him out to the Rhodesian farmers when he

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got in country. And so I thought that was pretty

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cool and just kind of had it lurking in the

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back of my mind, and then eventually discovered Prime Minister

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Ian Smith's autobiography, which is called The Great Betrayal. It

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was reprinted as Bitter Harvest in the early two thousands,

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and it's about his struggle against really the entirety of

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the West and the entirety of the Communist Block to

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make Rhodesia independent. And I'd forget how I stumbled across that,

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but more or less accidentally, and through reading it kind

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of remembered what I'd heard from Brown about fighting the

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Communist rebels. And then looking at it through Smith's eye,

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was able to see how the West got involved, and

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that really sparked interest, and I started reading more about it,

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various memoirs, autobiographies, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: Well, do you mind if we start off talking about

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the fact that Rhodesia is named after Cecil Roads and

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that even though we love Rhodesia, we don't love Cecil Roads.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm more ambivalent towards him than a lot of

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people are. The Pioneer column, which is how it was started.

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He funded the British South Africa Company and sent a

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column of men into Rhodesia to found it, and it

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was a pretty cool experiment, and that it was very

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selective as to who they took on board. It wasn't

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the typical sort of freebooter adventurers that you find in

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these stories, but was really the second sons of the

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British gentry, and that was kind of the immigration policy

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Rhodesia had moving forward, was the best men. And so

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that's where the Cecil Roads connection comes in. Was the

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founding of it. As I'm sure everyone listening is, he's

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one of the big proponents of the British Empire, and

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there are a lot of mixed views of him online.

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I'm more ambivalent towards him because I see the British

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Empire as a civilizing force. But also I can see

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why a lot of people dislike him and dislike it well.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of it also has to deal

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with a lot of his writings were picked up by

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people that we would call globalists and used for those purposes. Also,

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when I was growing up, I was taught that, you know,

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if you're a Rhodes scholar, that's something special. And then

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we find out that most Rhodes scholars are globalists scum.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the few Rhodes scholars I know are just awful

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and very much not what I would want. I think

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he wasn't quite like that. He wanted the Rhodes Scholarship

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to be the best man being u and brought into

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British aristocratic culture and somewhat like the Ford Foundation, that's

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gone downhill since he died, which is quite sad.

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Speaker 1: So talk about the founding of Rhodesia to get into

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how this, you know, how this the colony, you know,

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this white colony in Black Africa it started.

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Speaker 2: It's really interesting because it's a flash to flash back

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to the past in a lot of ways. It was

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so just to keep in mind as I describe it,

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it was a private colony up until nineteen twenties. Until

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the nineteen twenties, meaning it was run entirely by the

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British South Africa Company as a private experiment, somewhat like

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Jamestown originally was or the raj under the East India Company,

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which is interesting. But so in eighteen nineties, the British

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Empire was reaching at zenith and Rhodes is one of

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his many projects. Wanted to build a railway from Cape

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Town to Cairo, and to do that he needed the

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middle part of Africa. The British needed the middle part

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of Africa. But also the government was getting somewhat tired

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of the expenditures of having to try and colonize and

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settle and civilize the entire world, so it wasn't particularly

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interested in marching into the veilt and trying to carve

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civilization out of just grassland inhabited by subsistence farmers. So

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Roads had to do it individually and more or less

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without permission from the government. It was just a private initiative,

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so over a couple of years he banded together what

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was called the Pioneer, and it was a collection of

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men from England largely. It wasn't South African, and that

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it wasn't Boor, it wasn't Dutch. It was English, largely

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the sons of the gentlemen of England. So they were

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educated their gentlemen, and they weren't just a rogues gallery

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like Andrew Jackson's Defense Force of New Orleans. And they

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marched north under the banner of the British South Africa Company,

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which despite being called the South Africa Company, was in

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charge of Rhodesia, not South Africa, and did so quite successfully.

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What they found in Rhodesia was, as anyone who's read

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the Allan Quaterman books, which is based on Courtney Cellis,

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will remember, it was largely uninhabited. There were a few

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subsistence farmers in the area, pastoralists, agriculturalists, but essentially living

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in the Stone Age, with no wheels, no technology, no

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buildings of note. It was uninhabited except for just a

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few huts and cows and such. So they settled it

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and did so quite successfully. It became a booming area

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of the Empire that was quite agriculturally successful because unlike England,

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there were no large costs of enclosure. They could just

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start farming these huge tracts of land. So you hear

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about dukes getting tired of the death duties in England

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buying say ten twenty thousand acres just at the drop

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of a hat in Rhodesia in farming it quite successfully

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and not having to deal with all the nonsense that

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was going on in England. So that's somewhat the role

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it took on was this place for people to go

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who wanted to have large estates and farm them well

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without having to put up with nonsense. And it grew

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because of that, and the area was quite fertile once

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they started farming it well using modern implements, and it

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grew successfully. They served in World War One, fighting bravely

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in the trenches, but it was still pretty small at

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that point so it wasn't really that many men. And

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then in nineteen twenty the British South Africa Company let

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it devolve to local self rule rather than company rule.

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Speaker 1: So if you, yeah, once you start having self rule

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and it becomes decentralized basically, So how does the steep

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centralization affect the culture the people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so two big things. One is that immigration policy wise,

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they didn't want the very poor moving there. They didn't

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want to be somewhere like Australia was where criminals were

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deported there. They wanted to maintain British society at its best.

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They also didn't want a bunch of reprobates like traveled

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to Kenya and just kind of had swinger a couple

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orgies and just Kenya was kind of a disaster zone

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for the reprobates of the Empire Rhodesia. They wanted the

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gentlemen who were successful farmers and were going to do

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a good job, but also not just be poor looking

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for welfare type situation. So they had a selective immigration

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policy and maintained that through the sixties, at which point

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they just needed men and started trying to dragging everyone

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from the West. But so for forty years they had

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a very restrictive immigration policy and we're looking for second

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sons and that sort of thing. The Duke of Mantros

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moved there and became a political force. Secondly, they had

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to decide how to run the government because though originally

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there were a few native Africans in the country. They

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grew tremendously once there was Western hospitals, much more food,

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better agricultural practices. All that. There were quite good relations

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between the natives and Rhodesians, but they were still uneducated

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and as Ian Smith later said, unable to rule themselves.

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They needed a perternneless hand if they were going to

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live well, which the Rhodesians one of them too. So

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instead of having a mass democracy like at that time

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was transforming England after the Parliament Bill or was President

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America Sincetrackson, Really they went with the old system of

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landed voting and landed democracy where you could vote and

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it was a parliament. It was a normal Western legislature,

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but instead of everyone voting, it was only those with

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the requisite amount of property or who later on met

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certain educational criteria to show that they were intelligent, which

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mainly meant it was white voters, but also the locally

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successful blacks ended up voting, and there was participation through

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the local tribal chiefs.

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Speaker 1: What kind of relations did they have with South Africa,

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I mean South Africa's at this point has been has

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been around a lot longer than Rhodesia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was mixed. Their relationship during the Bush War,

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which we'll talk about later, was quite complicated because the

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South Africans were trying to maintain their own system while

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under similar pressure from the Western world, and so it

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became standoffish. Up until then, it was somewhat mixed in

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a similar way, where Rhodesia was a very Anglo culture,

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they only really let in the English. There were Portuguese

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or Dutch there, like in those Ambique or South Africa,

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and so there was some conflict with the Dutch in

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South Africa because they didn't like the apartheid system. They

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saw it as unjust and not necessary compared to the

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just landed democracy style system they had, and so there

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was some tension on that front. But also they were

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trading partners. They were close by and had pretty close

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economic and commercial lands, and there's a good deal of

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inflow from people who land in South Africa and move

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up to Rhodesia, and both became loyal members of the

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Commonwealth and Empire at least up until World War Two,

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and contributed a large number of men to that war.

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So again it was it was mixed. They the problem

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was just a conflict of cultures. Where Rhodesia was very

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Anglo civilized, aristocratic Anglo, not kind of the low culture

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we have now, and that conflicted I think a good

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bit with the Dutch from what I can gather. But

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it also wasn't hostile. It wasn't like you know, between Germany,

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East Africa and South Africa wherever. During World War One.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think during the World War One series with

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Thomas seven seven seven we covered talked to some about

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the Boer War, but obviously didn't go extremely deep into it.

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So yeah, it's all us about what happened, just.

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Speaker 2: With the Boer War generally, or with as Regardssia. Yeah, okay, yeah,

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So for those who don't know, it's really the Second

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Boer War is what people mean when they say the

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Boer War. The first one was pretty short and the

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British lost it handily handedly excuse me. The second one

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was much more of a large conflict because the Boers

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put up a stiff fight and the British kept setting

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and en list numbers of men. So y'all know that

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I don't really need repeat it. At that point, Rhodesia

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had only been founded in eighteen nineties. This was taking

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place maybe a decade later, there weren't really a large

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number of men to fight, and they were also focused

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more on the commercial aspects of it. It was the British

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South Africa Company rather than the British Empire. So I

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haven't really read much about Rhodesian involvement in the Boer War,

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and from what I gather, it's because if there was any,

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it was quite small, and much more of that war

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was about the invasion from the south to north rather

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than any attempts to get men into Rhodesia and have

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them pushed south.

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Speaker 1: So how did it affect them at all? How did

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it affect their growth and how.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it helped draw more resources into the area. For example,

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Lord Randolph Churchill of famously visited South Africa and helped

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invest and find what became the rand mines that are

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famous and very wealthy today. So the Boer War was

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helpful to Rhodesia and that it brought renewed British interest

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and investment in the area, and also that people could

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then travel up and see it and move there, build there,

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invest there. All that it wasn't overly impactful as regards

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to the South Africans, just because there was commercial relations

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and clash of cultures. So it was, you know, kind

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of like us in Mexico. I guess might be something

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approaching an example, though incorrect in many respects. Just where

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there's tensions, there's migration back and forth or commercial lengths.

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But how did Emperor Ferdinand or Whoever's invasion in Mexico

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infect us during the Civil War? Not overly much.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned up until World War Two at some point,

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So what is what is Rhodesia doing during the War

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War two?

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Speaker 2: So Ian Smith, who became the Prime Minister during the

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sixties and until Rhodesia fell in seventy nine, was a

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spitfire pilot in World War Two, and that was a

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pretty representative example of Rhodesian service. They were excited about

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war because it was their chance to participate fully in

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the Empire, because during World War One had still been

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the British South Africa Company. From what I gather, it

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wasn't really an ideological involvement so much as they just

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wanted to participate in war, somewhat like Teddy Roosevelt for example,

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getting excited about the Spanish American War. The Air Force

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was a big component of how they contributed because, as

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I've mentioned before, it was a pretty small country. At

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its maximum, it only had about two hundred and fifty

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thousand whites, so they couldn't contribute division after division to

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be fed in the fighting in Italy or whatever. They

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did have enough men to contribute a pretty large air

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force contingent, however, which they did and were quite successful at.

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The Rhodesian spirit of inventiveness and being able to be

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self sufficient and quite brave I think helped them in

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their air force. Endeavors Ian Smith's story is quite fun.

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He was shot down over Greece or Macedonia and remained

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on the run from the Germans, hiding in peasant villages

291
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for a while with I think a broken armor leg,

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until he finally reached safety. The war then ended. The

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Rhodesian contribution had been large for the sized country it was,

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and so the British offered them independence, which is the

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only way World War Two really matters to Rhodesia is

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that the British said that they could become independent if

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they wanted it, under whatever conditions they wanted, keeping their government.

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They declined because they thought being part of the Commonwealth

299
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would help them, and that really came back to bite

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them about twenty years later, which we'll discuss in minute.

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I guess the other way it impacted them was that

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excuse me, after the war. It was only forty eight

303
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that the South Africans built their apartheid system, which the

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Rhodesians disliked, and that ended up creating a lot of

305
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tension in the region and internationally, So that'd be the

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other way it affected them. But Rhodesia was never invaded

307
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during World War Two. They contributed men, was a ton

308
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of men, so it was something of a small war

309
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for them in which they got some more experience and

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close relationships with the Empire, but was otherwise not overly impactful.

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Speaker 1: What was the attitude of the world towards them after

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World War Two? You know, World War Two is an

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ideological shift, right Ethno states are looked down upon, And yeah,

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I mean you were talking about, well, you know what

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starts happening twenty years after, But that doesn't all just

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happen at once. It has to build up.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, there are a couple of things. One was

318
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that after Churchill was thrown out in was it spring

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or summer of forty five and replaced with attlee as

320
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bad as looking back, Churchill probably was attlee was just impossible.

321
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He kept he nationalized the coal and rail industries along

322
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with other mining industries, kept ration and going for like

323
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five years after the war, something crazy. So England was

324
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just a horrible place to live at that time, and

325
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that helped Rhodesia, and that people wanted to move from

326
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England's to Rhodesia because there they could just buy a

327
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farm and with a successful life without having to worry

328
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about the socialist taxation and rationing and all that. Tim

329
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Bax and his book Three SIPs of Gin describes his

330
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family moving from Britain to British Southern Africa just because

331
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it was so much pleasant. So there was that. The

332
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other thing was that the British Empire was a bankrupt

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after the war. I mean you remember in the beginning

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of the war they were confiscating wedding rings to pay

335
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for American arms. Then they lost when they retreated from Dunkirk.

336
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So it was a mess and they didn't really have

337
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the will or the resources to hold on to the

338
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empire anymore. That mattered less to Rhodesia than it might

339
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appear at first glance, just because they could hold on

340
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to it themselves had it not been for later fighting.

341
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It was really that the British started seeing empire negatively

342
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rather than positively that urt Rhodesia rather than say in

343
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Aiden or Yemen. When the British retreated, that was a

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mess for the locals because they couldn't hold onto it themselves,

345
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so they ended up having to bring in Sterling as

346
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a mercenary. Or in the Congo when the Belgians left,

347
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that was a disaster for the Belgian Congolese because they

348
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didn't really have the ability to hold onto it, so

349
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they're masacred by the Simbas and during the Katonga unpleasantness.

350
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But Rhodesia was different in that despite having a small

351
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white population, it was able to fight and had good

352
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relations between white and blacks in the country, so they

353
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were able to fight the Communists had it not been

354
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for the West looking at them negatively. So long way

355
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of saying that after the war, it didn't matter as

356
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much that Britain was giving up its empire. If anything,

357
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that would have been a net positive for them, perhaps

358
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because it would have meant less ideological control. What mattered

359
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was it as you hinted at things like Rhodesia were

360
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starting to be seen negatively. Even Singapore faced a good

361
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bit of resistance for its anti communist policies. As Leak one,

362
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you talks about Rhodesia much much more so because it

363
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was mainly white rule through its landed voting system.

364
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Speaker 1: You mentioned the uh that blacks slid there too. So

365
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if there were you about a quarter million whites, how

366
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many blacks would that be?

367
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Speaker 2: I think about three million, four million. Yeah, it's somewhat

368
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hard to tell because they lived like villages and the

369
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government was investing heavily in the villages. But you can

370
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only do so much being counting when it's quite undeveloped

371
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situation like that. But it was in the blow ten million,

372
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but well above like one or two million range.

373
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Speaker 1: I can't help but think that even before tensions started

374
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to break, that there would have been some kind of

375
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lead up, there would have been some kind of movement

376
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towards talking about how we shouldn't be ruled by these

377
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white colonialist suppressors.

378
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Speaker 2: You see, it's interesting because it wasn't that happened to

379
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some extent with Mugabe and Nkomo, who were the communist

380
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leaders later on, But really that movement was quite small,

381
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I mean far, far smaller than saying the Congo or

382
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in South Africa, because the whites and blacks in Rhodesia

383
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had quite good relations. Ian Smith talks about various experiences

384
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with tribal chiefs and the servants who worked for him,

385
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and they didn't really care that much about self rule

386
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or mass democracy. The Western powers implied that they did

387
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because of America's experience with civil rights during the time period,

388
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but it wasn't really an issue. Most of the rebels,

389
00:21:19,599 --> 00:21:22,359
for example, who fought in the war were from outside Rhodesia.

390
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,359
Some came from inside it, but generally they were from

391
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,119
Mozambique or Zambia or the Congo, moving down and fighting,

392
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and then when they moved into Rhodesia were handed over

393
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to the government by the black labors. So there was

394
00:21:35,079 --> 00:21:37,519
certainly some of the well we need to get whitey

395
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out of here because he's mean or whatever perspective, but

396
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,599
it was quite limited. In Rhodesia's case, it was mainly

397
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,640
the country was defined by good relations between European and Black.

398
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 1: So what was their main way of the government's main

399
00:21:53,759 --> 00:21:57,240
way of generating income, What were there you got to

400
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,279
have if you're only importing your you're in trouble. So

401
00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:02,200
what were their exports?

402
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,039
Speaker 2: So this is something that came back to bite Mugabe

403
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,960
later when he confiscated the farmland and destroyed the economy.

404
00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:11,119
Is Rhodesia was able to subsist because it built foreign

405
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,559
exchange reserves by exporting agricultural products. It was industrializing and

406
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,880
had an industrial economy. But really it's claim to fame

407
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,200
as being the bread basket of Africa. It was quite

408
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,640
successful it growing grain. It also was quite successful at

409
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:28,119
growing tobacco, so Rhodesian tobacco Rhodesian grain were well liked

410
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,240
in the region and widely exported. That became a problem

411
00:22:31,319 --> 00:22:33,799
during the Bush War because of the embargo placed on

412
00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:36,039
it by the UN. But up until then it was

413
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successful and growing cash crops for exporting them or foreign

414
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exchange and then buying whatever it needed. It is somewhat

415
00:22:43,079 --> 00:22:45,319
like you know, Russia or wherever when they exported grain

416
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,039
the before World War One. So it was the agricultural

417
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,839
sector was really its cash generator on the international scale.

418
00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: Now it makes me wonder if there are any Rhodesian

419
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,319
cigars sitting around in some of these humid or some

420
00:23:01,519 --> 00:23:03,759
billionaire's humid or somewhere.

421
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 2: I hope. So that would be incredible to get to

422
00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:08,160
smoke one of those. Yeah, I don't know. Zimbabwe can

423
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,559
even grow tobacco anymore in places a mass, but back

424
00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:13,440
in the day they could, and it was supposedly their

425
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,920
wine and their tobacco was excellent when they could grow it.

426
00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:18,839
Speaker 1: Yeah. I know a couple of people who claim to

427
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:24,440
have pre revolution Cubans in their in their private humidors.

428
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:33,640
That's awesome. So how does it? It seems like they're

429
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,599
doing well there. It basically starts off as a sounds

430
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,599
like a corporation basically, and then and then it goes

431
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,079
to private rule. It sounds like it goes to the

432
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,160
kind of voting system that we had here when the

433
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,640
country first started. You got to be a landowner, got

434
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:57,880
to be white, and then at some point things start

435
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,599
going downhill. So, yeah, is the is it just the

436
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,279
is it just the red menace? Just all the influence

437
00:24:05,279 --> 00:24:06,559
from communism?

438
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,079
Speaker 2: It kind of So that was certainly a thing, But

439
00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:14,000
the bigger aspect was earlier every time, about World War two,

440
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,359
and I think one of the main outcomes of that

441
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,519
war was the rise of egalitarianism as being the dominant ideology,

442
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,759
whether you're a communist or a classical liberal. Egalitarianism is

443
00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:28,839
really the key aspect of that, not that we're all

444
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,960
equal in the eyes of God, which I think is true,

445
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,039
but equal in the eyes of being interchangeable economic units.

446
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,119
And the West believed that after the war. So Rhodesia, though,

447
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,519
there was no qualification for voting, but you had to

448
00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:43,440
be white. It was mainly white voters because they were

449
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,720
the ones who they bood there and bought the largest states.

450
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,119
They had the property, and they were the ones voting

451
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,839
and running the government. The Duke of Montrose, for example,

452
00:24:50,839 --> 00:24:53,559
as the Agricultural Commissioner, which when was the last time

453
00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:57,119
a duke was in charge of anything in England? The

454
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,319
Hotel Cecil in the early nineteen hundreds, it was a

455
00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:02,640
while ago. And so they hated that, they really hated

456
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,759
that Rhodesia was an egalitarian and that instead of just

457
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,759
letting everyone vote, they had this racial or it wasn't

458
00:25:08,759 --> 00:25:10,799
a racial system, excuse me. They had this economic system

459
00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:12,880
where you had to be a landowner pretty much to vote.

460
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,359
You could also like shares in a Rhodesian company or whatever,

461
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,519
but land was the big thing. So the West hated that.

462
00:25:18,599 --> 00:25:23,440
I really really hated that just for the ideological egalitarian reason.

463
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,519
That was the big thing going on with Rhodesia, which

464
00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:28,480
is whyfe a West hated it. Meanwhile, you had the

465
00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:32,599
communist subversion in the region. The Portuguese, which bordered Rhodesia

466
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,680
to its east, and Mozambique had been fighting the communist

467
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,799
rebels there for a long time. Rhodesia was assisting in

468
00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:40,799
that war, and then there ended up being a large

469
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,440
amount of rebels who fought in both conflicts, both against

470
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,200
the Portuguese and Mozambique and the Rhodesians in Rhodesia, and

471
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,960
so the Communists were getting interested in the region. The

472
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,599
Chinese ended up backing Mugabe and the Russians, where early

473
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,759
Soviets were backing the Como. They were different ethnic groups.

474
00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:01,920
Mugabe was a Shonah and Nicomo was in Neble, and

475
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,200
so there's some ethnic conflict between the Blacks on that angle.

476
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,920
That largely it was communist influence supporting these people finding

477
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,039
outside rebels to then attack Rhodesia, and the West was

478
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,160
letting it happen because of egalitarianism that started up in

479
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,839
around sixty four or sixty five. Really sixty five is

480
00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:24,559
probably the more accurate start date. Sixty five was also

481
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,319
when the Simba rebels in the Congo were having their

482
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,960
run ride across the country, which, for those who haven't

483
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,640
read my course Congo Mercenary, it's quite a fun book

484
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,200
about how like fifty guys can defeat an entire arm

485
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,119
and b of African communists. But the problem with the

486
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,119
Simbas was they just ran ride across the Congo immediately

487
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,119
and they killed raped all the nuns. It was quite horrific.

488
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,319
And the Belgians who had remained after dependence, and I

489
00:26:50,319 --> 00:26:52,599
think sixty one it was either sixty or sixty one

490
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,400
when the Belgians left left because that was they weren't

491
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,960
putting up with that anymore. So during the Simba rebellion

492
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,000
in sixty five, Belgians flood south and made it to

493
00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:05,519
Rhodesia and described what had happened in the Congo and

494
00:27:05,559 --> 00:27:08,240
how the UN and Americans really let it happen where

495
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,799
it wouldn't have had to had Nikorb been brought in earlier,

496
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,680
or anyone confident been brought in earlier, but for ideological reasons,

497
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,599
the Congo was allowed to fall apart. So Rhodesia saw that,

498
00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:21,680
and that was when deconization was really hitting the region

499
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,759
hard because rather than just giving things up, the West

500
00:27:24,799 --> 00:27:28,200
was getting involved in making sure the what they called

501
00:27:28,599 --> 00:27:30,720
majority rule and I think we'd call one man, one

502
00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:34,720
vote one time, the pseudo democracy was going on. So

503
00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:37,359
the Rhodesians decided, we're not going to do this. The

504
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,839
Portuguese are being damned by the West for triangled ont

505
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,599
Angola and those Ambique. They brought civilization to those countries

506
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,559
and now they're being damned for it. And meanwhile, the

507
00:27:45,599 --> 00:27:48,119
Belgians left the Congo, which was once the jewel of

508
00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:51,400
the Sub Saharan Africa. I mean, just as a side note,

509
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,000
most of the claims about King Loopold were entirely made

510
00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:56,519
up and stuff going on just with the natives before

511
00:27:56,519 --> 00:27:58,880
the Belgians got there. Despite the Belgians being there, it

512
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,759
wasn't Belgian policy. So the Congo was quite nice until

513
00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:06,839
the Simbas and sixty five it took over, It temporarily

514
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,400
took over the government just kind of dissolved. But so

515
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,920
long way of saying, Rhodesia didn't want to deal with that,

516
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,480
they didn't want an apartheid system. Like South Africa had

517
00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:18,960
because they saw it as immoral and unnecessary. But they

518
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,519
also didn't want to go the way of the Congo,

519
00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:22,720
because who wants to be hacked to death by a

520
00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:27,400
drugged up rebel. So they started petitioning Britain for independence,

521
00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:29,799
which is a reminder they'd been offered in forty five

522
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,119
but decided against it. So with Harold Wilson in charge,

523
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,839
who was a socialist much like Attlee, he was even

524
00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:38,880
worse than that. You raised the death tax rate to

525
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,200
ninety percent in Britain, which really broke the pack of

526
00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:46,759
any hereditary power in the country. But so Wilson refused

527
00:28:46,759 --> 00:28:51,039
to let them leave the Empire have independence without what

528
00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:54,119
he called majority rule. So his slogan was nim maar

529
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,799
or no independence before majority rule. The Rhodesians refused because

530
00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:02,000
they said, well, our land voting system is fair, it's democratic.

531
00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:04,480
People can vote if only they prove they're capable, So

532
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,839
we're going to keep that because it's much better way

533
00:29:06,839 --> 00:29:11,359
of handling things. Wilson didn't like that because of egalitarianism

534
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:14,799
and all that, so Wilson refused. In the Rhodesians in

535
00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:18,839
November of nineteen sixty five, declared their unilateral declaration of independence.

536
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,319
It was modeled after the American Declaration of Independence, and

537
00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:24,759
from that point on it was really the Rhodesians against

538
00:29:24,799 --> 00:29:28,119
the world. The West, particularly Britain in the United States

539
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,119
hated them for it for various ideological reasons. In the Communists,

540
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,599
as mentioned before, I wanted to destroy the country for

541
00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:38,920
reasons of regional power. So they with the exceptions of

542
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,000
Portugal and South Africa which were close allies, and Israel,

543
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,400
which supplied them with arms throughout the war, it was

544
00:29:44,559 --> 00:29:46,559
them against the world.

545
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think people would be surprised to find out

546
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,839
that Israel was a supporter of Rhodesia.

547
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. I've been trying to find out about that because

548
00:29:57,759 --> 00:30:01,400
it's odd. I haven't found out why. All I know

549
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,160
is that they supplied them with arms and that Israel

550
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,599
had a connection with South Africa up until ben of

551
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,240
apartheid in ninety four because of mutual reasons of wanting

552
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,839
that with them in the Palestinians and the South Africans

553
00:30:12,839 --> 00:30:14,720
and apartheid. But I haven't.

554
00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:17,519
Speaker 1: I mean, the founders of South Africa are the founders

555
00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:20,200
of Israel, the Rothschilds and the Oppenheimer family.

556
00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: I've been able to find out what was gone on Rhodesia.

557
00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:27,039
Some of it was that I think Israel just was

558
00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:28,680
mad at the UN at the time period, and a

559
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,400
lot of the sanction in embargoes were being carried out

560
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,839
by the or enforced by the UN. So there was

561
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,359
some of that. But yeah, it's odd and I don't.

562
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,279
Speaker 1: Know, Well, it could also be tension with the red

563
00:30:39,519 --> 00:30:42,400
with the Reds, you know, so you know, they see

564
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,559
somebody getting attacked by the Reds and they're like, Okay, well, yeah,

565
00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:49,440
we'll back them up or something like that. Right, so

566
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,279
how do we how do we start getting into where

567
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,480
now it may not be so safe to be a

568
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,920
white person in Rhodesia.

569
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,359
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, in sixty five or sixty six, the UN

570
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,079
passed its first ever sanctions package. It was targeted at Rhodesia.

571
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,839
It was different in terms of pretty much every sanctions

572
00:31:12,839 --> 00:31:15,920
policy that's followed afterwards, and that it was mandatory, so

573
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,400
to be a member of the UN in good standing

574
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,079
you had to go along with the sanctions. Everyone went

575
00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:22,880
along with it, with the exception of Portugal, South Africa

576
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,799
and Israel for their various reasons. Portugal, as a reminder,

577
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,519
was ruled by Salazar at the time. That only really

578
00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:33,599
ended with the Carnation Revolution in seventy four, and Salazar

579
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,440
was hated by the West much like Ian Smith was.

580
00:31:35,839 --> 00:31:37,559
So at that point they were surrounded.

581
00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:40,119
Speaker 1: The West doesn't the West doesn't like it when you

582
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:43,599
when you win every election one hundred percent. No, if

583
00:31:43,599 --> 00:31:45,799
you're going to ra if you're going to rig your elections,

584
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:47,359
you have to do it a lot better than that.

585
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to buy those dominion voting machines like

586
00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:55,880
Brazil Dian But yeah, yeah, so they hated Salazar, they

587
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,799
hated South Africa. Rhodesia was surrounded at that point because

588
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,920
Rhodesia had it originally composed what's now Zimbabwe and what's

589
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,319
now Zambia. The Zambians broke off in the early sixties

590
00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:10,240
and formed oone country. It's better now and was better

591
00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:13,079
in seventy nine when Rhodesia fell, But it was originally

592
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,000
a communist style country. I don't know if it was

593
00:32:17,039 --> 00:32:19,160
overly ideological or if it was more like the Congo

594
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,279
where it was just a mess. But anyway, so Rhodesia

595
00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:25,240
had Zambia to its northwest and Mozambique to its east,

596
00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:28,599
and North and South Africa to its south. Those were

597
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,039
the countries bordering it. Zambia and Mozambique were full of communists,

598
00:32:32,599 --> 00:32:35,519
but because Mozambique was controlled by the Portuguese, it was

599
00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:37,759
really only Zambia through which the rebels could come up

600
00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:41,279
until seventy four. That was helpful to the Rhodesians because

601
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:43,960
it limited the border size. As I mentioned earlier, they

602
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,720
were only about two hundred fifty thousand whites, so pretty

603
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,480
small number of men you can draw from that group,

604
00:32:48,559 --> 00:32:51,160
and the blacks volunteered for a couple of units, but

605
00:32:51,319 --> 00:32:53,319
the Rhodesian army was still small. I think at most

606
00:32:53,319 --> 00:32:57,680
points it was under twenty thousand people. So the Rhodesians

607
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,279
were fighting in the Bush War, which mainly that point

608
00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:04,039
consisted of the farms would be attacked or the farming estates,

609
00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:05,960
like I talked about earlier, wuld be attacked by the rebels,

610
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,559
who would torture the black labors and try and kill

611
00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:13,119
the white families, with very limited success up until seventy four,

612
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,359
at which point the war went from being really what

613
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,960
was described as a police action somewhat like in Malaysia

614
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,359
in the fifties, to a full scale war because Portugal

615
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,920
fellow the Socialists and the Carnation Revolution, and they instantly

616
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:30,079
gave up their colonies in Mozambique and Angola. Mozambique suddenly

617
00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:34,000
became this large scale beacon of communism through which not

618
00:33:34,039 --> 00:33:36,519
only could the rebels could come into Rhodesia and attack

619
00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:39,160
it in much larger units than they had previously been

620
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,480
able to, but also it was this huge country that

621
00:33:41,839 --> 00:33:44,119
they were able to rest in, rearm in, be provided

622
00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:47,200
with Communist training and aiden. So that really became a

623
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,640
problem for the Rhodesians. They Rhodesia was someone like America

624
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,960
and Vietnam, where they won a lot of battles, all

625
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,200
the battles, probably, but had trouble turning that into any

626
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,720
sort of strategic success. The Mozambique operations you read about

627
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,359
a great examples of that. I'm forgetting the names now,

628
00:34:05,359 --> 00:34:06,799
but there were a few or they would go in

629
00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:08,679
and at the cost of one or two wounded, they'd

630
00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:12,719
kill thousands of rebels. But it also expanded the war

631
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,199
and got the so called international community even more angry

632
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,079
at them, so it ended up being a wash in

633
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:23,559
terms of a fact. The other problem was that Rhodesia,

634
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:25,719
if you look at it a map from Zimbabwe. Now

635
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,000
it has no sea access, it's surrounded by land. So

636
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:34,000
if they wanted supplies, particularly oil, the only way they'd

637
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,760
been able to import oil was through the port of

638
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,000
Bierra in Mozambique, because South Africa has no oil of note,

639
00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:42,800
when they were sanctioned in the eighties and nineties, they

640
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,360
were really making it out of coal, which you can't

641
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,360
make oil out of coal and then supply another country

642
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,079
with it. You can barely do that for yourself. The

643
00:34:50,119 --> 00:34:52,199
Germans found that out, I think in the end of

644
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:57,000
World War two. But anyway, sorry, that's off topic. But

645
00:34:57,559 --> 00:34:59,199
so if they wanted oil, they had to get it

646
00:34:59,199 --> 00:35:01,599
through Bierra. When mozambiqu failed, they no longer had the

647
00:35:01,639 --> 00:35:04,280
era through which they could import oil, and that really

648
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,199
hurt their war machine and agricultural machine. So the war

649
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,159
escalated in seventy four. They had a lot fewer supplies

650
00:35:11,199 --> 00:35:13,760
with which they could fight it. Also, if you want

651
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,519
to ask a question, please interrupt me. I'll just keep going.

652
00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:19,280
But I'll keep going, okay, So the war escalated in

653
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,880
seventy four. What became a problem for the rudisions was

654
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,480
the oil situation. I mentioned a minute ago that they

655
00:35:24,519 --> 00:35:27,280
had a much larger border now to defend, which was

656
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,599
a problem for them because without oil they really had

657
00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:34,360
to use horses to patrol it. They lacked planes, they

658
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,559
lacked helicopters, they lacked reconnaissance vehicles. They had all of those,

659
00:35:38,599 --> 00:35:40,760
but oil was limited and numbers were limited because they

660
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,119
couldn't import anything. So the Gray Scouts were patrolling the

661
00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:46,920
border on horses with fALS, which makes for some cool

662
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,960
pictures but isn't overly useful. So the war became much

663
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,239
more of a problem for them. More rebels were coming

664
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,360
through and attacking farms, more rebels were getting in large

665
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,119
scale firefights with them. They had a limited ability to

666
00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:03,119
respond with their power. When they did respond with their power,

667
00:36:03,159 --> 00:36:05,599
and some set of bombing or strafing or whatever. It

668
00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:08,719
was much more dropping in paratroopers to fight rebels, which

669
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,719
I mean they would dropped the same paratroopers like six

670
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,000
seven times a day sometimes, but still only so much

671
00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:17,840
you can do, so the war became a larger problem.

672
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,239
The South Africans also started stabbing them in the back

673
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,599
around that time. South Africa, as I mentioned earlier, had

674
00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:27,400
it's apartheid system. The world hated it for that for

675
00:36:27,639 --> 00:36:30,519
all the reasons you can imagine. So South Africa was

676
00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:34,280
trying to build some space for itself. It thought the

677
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,480
way to do that was by leaving the Rhodesians for

678
00:36:36,519 --> 00:36:39,239
the wolves to eat, which didn't help South Africa at all.

679
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,920
The world still hated it, but it could say, oh, no,

680
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,960
we're not like those evil Rhodesians, where you're sanctioning them

681
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,519
and going along with it. So the South Africans pulled

682
00:36:46,519 --> 00:36:49,559
out the armored police forces they had stationed in South

683
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:52,440
Africa to help it defend its borders and cities, stopped

684
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,239
really supplying it with weapons for a while, and started

685
00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:00,039
undercutting it in diplomatic negotiations that Smith was engaging, and

686
00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:04,239
largely in Britain. So Rhodesia had a much harder time

687
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,320
fighting the war after seventy four. Then Jimmy Carter was

688
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,199
elected in seventy six. One of his partners in crime

689
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,440
was Andy Young, who was a fellow civil rights activist

690
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,000
from Georgia. Young was one of the main backers of

691
00:37:18,039 --> 00:37:22,280
the communists in Rhodesia. He particularly was close with Mugabe,

692
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,880
but also supported Nkomo. So America up to that point

693
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,360
had been really against Rhodesia, but it became even more

694
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,119
so after that point. A. Kissinger had been somewhat playing

695
00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:37,719
both sides, and Smith describes Kissinger well. If you read

696
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,599
Kissinger's autobiography, he says he regrets demolishing Rhodesia, and he

697
00:37:42,679 --> 00:37:45,280
was being very disingenuous when he was dealing with Smith.

698
00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:49,440
But still America hadn't been overtly hostile in the way

699
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,199
it was under Carter up until Carter was elected, because

700
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,320
Nixon and Ford were somewhat ambivalent about it. That was

701
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,880
in seventy six. Things kept getting worse during the war.

702
00:38:01,159 --> 00:38:03,519
A lot of white started fleeing the country as things

703
00:38:03,519 --> 00:38:07,280
got worse. I think particularly that started heating up after

704
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,960
seventy five with just people I've been leaving and moving

705
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,320
to South Africa. So Rudy just started having a demographic

706
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,079
crisis where it didn't really have the men to fight

707
00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:19,159
the war or the economy to support conflict. So Smith

708
00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:21,280
started really looking for a way out from what I

709
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,960
gather in about seventy five or seventy six, couldn't really

710
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,199
find a good one, and things kept going back and forth.

711
00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:31,800
Then in seventy nine, two big escalatory events happened one

712
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,960
was Nikomo. He was the one backed by the Soviets

713
00:38:35,119 --> 00:38:38,440
or yeah, Soviets, excuse me, used two surface to air

714
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,719
missiles to shoot down civilian airliners traveling from Salisbury to

715
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,320
South Africa. I forget the names of the flights, but

716
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,159
if you just look up Rhodesian planes shot down you

717
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,880
can find it. It was particularly horrific because they were

718
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,519
obviously civilian airliners, and then when they crashed, instead of

719
00:38:52,519 --> 00:38:55,360
helping the survivors as a civilized force would have done,

720
00:38:55,519 --> 00:38:58,960
Niccomo's men tortured and vanetted them to death. So it

721
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,360
was horrific. And that that was in seventy nine, and

722
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,639
it really encouraged a lot of Rhubesians who had been

723
00:39:03,639 --> 00:39:06,719
trying to stay to just leave because they could really

724
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,039
see what the rebels were and that the rebels looked

725
00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:11,480
like they were going to win. So that worse for

726
00:39:11,559 --> 00:39:15,719
the demographic crisis. Then the remaining oil the Rhodesians had

727
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,679
was stored and pretty much stored in one central facility,

728
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,079
and the rebels managed to blow it up. So at

729
00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:24,440
that point the Rhodesians had to give in because the

730
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,760
South Africans weren't being helpful. Their oil was gone and

731
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,960
most of their people had left, so they gave in.

732
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,000
And at first there was a non Mugabe government. Mugabe

733
00:39:34,039 --> 00:39:36,559
said it was able to win in an unfair election,

734
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,159
so they readid the election. Mugabe tortured people until they

735
00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:43,159
voted for him and sent his thugs to scare them

736
00:39:43,159 --> 00:39:45,599
into voting for him and ended up winning that. And

737
00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:48,079
then that's all she wrote in the game Zimbabwe and

738
00:39:48,199 --> 00:39:49,519
the hell a hole. Within a few years.

739
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: Well, they were still a part of the Empire this

740
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,000
whole time, the Empire not giving them any help.

741
00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:03,639
Speaker 2: New is so, as I mentioned, the British really hated

742
00:40:03,639 --> 00:40:07,599
that Rhodesia wasn't an egalitarian society, so when it unilaterally

743
00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:12,679
declared independence, the British claimed that independence was invalid, but

744
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,440
then stopped providing any sort of help or aid or

745
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,960
you know, anything like that th Rhodesians. They only restarted

746
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,559
the aid or whatever they call it in seventy nine

747
00:40:22,599 --> 00:40:26,400
when majority rule happened, but in the interim the fourteen

748
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,360
years not so much. The Empire abandoned them, and it

749
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,199
was really quite the betrayal because not only were they

750
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,079
not helping, but the United Kingdom's navy, other than the

751
00:40:38,119 --> 00:40:41,480
Falklands conflict. Its last real gasp was attempting to patrol

752
00:40:41,519 --> 00:40:44,239
the port of Bierra to stop the Rhodesians from importing

753
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,800
oil up until it fell. As I mentioned in seventy four.

754
00:40:47,519 --> 00:40:49,400
For one, they failed at that, which is quite funny

755
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,679
to them, for the or the navy that used to

756
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,000
rule the waves now can even stop Greeka oil transports

757
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,360
from sliding into a port in southern Africa. But also

758
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,320
it just showed the British were implied actively opposed Rudisha's

759
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,159
continued existence after sixty five.

760
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 1: You've used the term egalitarian a few times. I mean

761
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,679
that it can be used in a lot of different ways.

762
00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:12,920
How are you using it?

763
00:41:14,519 --> 00:41:18,039
Speaker 2: I think it's the concept that in terms of policy

764
00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:22,280
and politics, it's viewing humans as interchangeable units that all

765
00:41:22,519 --> 00:41:26,199
be traded, is treated as having the same exact capabilities

766
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,360
and possibilities for the future.

767
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: So like every it's like we have here, you know,

768
00:41:33,559 --> 00:41:36,280
I just call it an open open air strip mall

769
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,039
where everything is about commerce and all we are are

770
00:41:42,159 --> 00:41:47,960
basically annuities going through commerce, and that's that's our purpose,

771
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,639
our purpose to these people to this regime and definitely

772
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,320
post the post world War two, the post Nuremberg regime

773
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,960
is that we are economic unit's, nothing more and nothing less.

774
00:41:59,079 --> 00:42:02,639
And if we are, if we have any kind of

775
00:42:02,639 --> 00:42:09,159
allegiance to anything historic, or anything religious, or anything about

776
00:42:09,199 --> 00:42:15,400
our family, our heritage, that it would interfere with that

777
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,519
commercial spirit, then we're the enemy.

778
00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: Basically, Yes, I think that's definitely the majority of it.

779
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,400
Adding to that, I think there are two things. One

780
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,239
is just the idea that not only are we economic units,

781
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,480
but we're entirely interchangeable ones. It's like the idea that

782
00:42:32,519 --> 00:42:34,239
the guy who like murdered someone at a seven to

783
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,159
eleven would have been an astronaut if you have like

784
00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:39,519
a better calculus teacher, which it's absurd and we all

785
00:42:39,519 --> 00:42:42,280
know it's absurd, but it's government policy in Britain and

786
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,920
America and has been for a long time. Adding to that,

787
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:49,280
I think is the idea that the government ought enforce

788
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:55,119
equality or equity really and so instead of having the

789
00:42:55,199 --> 00:42:58,119
Duke of Montrose beer agricultural commissioner, he has to be

790
00:42:58,159 --> 00:42:59,920
cut down the size. So we're going to taxes a

791
00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:03,000
state until it's sold through various death duties and income

792
00:43:03,079 --> 00:43:05,119
taxes and capital gains taxes and that sort of thing,

793
00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:08,920
or he'll now be the same economic unit really and

794
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,079
have the same potential in life as you know, the

795
00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:14,880
peasant who's been a peasant for a thousand generations, or

796
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,199
not just a peasant, but the recently important Senegalese peasant.

797
00:43:18,599 --> 00:43:20,280
I think it's that idea as well.

798
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,039
Speaker 1: I think another thing that might be there is the

799
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,519
idea that you care about others more than you care

800
00:43:28,519 --> 00:43:31,320
about your own. You know, you're not supposed to have

801
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,199
your own. There's I was talking to Josiah Lippincott yesterday

802
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,440
and he had in his background I think as a

803
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,400
brain scan of like someone who you consider a quote

804
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,960
unquote right wing conservative, and have you seen that one?

805
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,599
This liberal and it's complete opposite a too. You care

806
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,199
more about your own and your own family, and then they're,

807
00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:57,000
you know, like the ship lib would be cares way

808
00:43:57,039 --> 00:43:59,719
more about people that aren't close to them, that they've

809
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,559
never meet and they will never meet, and they hope

810
00:44:02,559 --> 00:44:05,519
they will never meet, even though they love them so much.

811
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 2: I'm not a huge Dickens fan, but he did have

812
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,159
a great term for that sort of thing. Now I'm

813
00:44:10,199 --> 00:44:13,519
forgetting it's like telescopic philanthropy or something where you're going

814
00:44:13,559 --> 00:44:16,840
to ignore the starving like day laborers that live half

815
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,280
a mile away from you. But then you have to

816
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,719
send all your kids toys and disposable income to Guinea

817
00:44:23,159 --> 00:44:24,920
or wherever wor it'll do no good, but you feel

818
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,960
much better about it because it's far away. And added

819
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,639
to that, just on the Rhodesian note is a life

820
00:44:31,679 --> 00:44:34,039
was quite good for the Blacks and Rhodesia, and they

821
00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:36,719
quite liked the Rhodesian government because of it. There's this

822
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,639
story from the Great Betrayal where a longtime servant of

823
00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:43,599
Ian Smith's family had some tooth absess that he wasn't

824
00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:45,920
getting taken care of. So Ian Smith like made him

825
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:47,360
go to the doctor, made him go to the dentist.

826
00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:49,679
They tried to deal with it. The guy was difficult,

827
00:44:49,679 --> 00:44:52,280
so it didn't really work out, but you know, they

828
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,920
really tried. And similarly, the villages in which pretty much

829
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,440
all the Africans lived, the government's spent a great deal

830
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,880
of resources investing in them, trying to make them better

831
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,280
to us. I think that can sometimes come across as cringe,

832
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,800
because we've seen how the Great Society worked out in America.

833
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,880
But there they had the point that these people had

834
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,079
been living in the Stone Age and were so showing

835
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,920
a great deal of like capability to work well on

836
00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:19,840
farms and such and so investing in the area and

837
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,719
you know, trying to like make clean water wells or

838
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,559
whatever it had some point to It was going well,

839
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,039
and it really did go well. The living standard for

840
00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:30,800
blacksm Rhodesia was far better than it was in Portuguese

841
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,599
Mo's Mbique or God forbid the Congo, particularly after a

842
00:45:34,639 --> 00:45:38,840
communist rule in the Congo. So it was an egalitarian

843
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,079
It was a very paternalistic government. It was much more

844
00:45:41,119 --> 00:45:43,199
like England before the first Reform Bill and I think

845
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,079
thirty two or America before Jackson in the thirties, and

846
00:45:47,159 --> 00:45:49,280
that you know, only the best could vote. But then

847
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,159
what they did with their votes wasn't what the current

848
00:45:52,199 --> 00:45:55,239
crowd does, which is, you know, globalization to become obscenely

849
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,280
wealthy and some you know, fake idea or company, but

850
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,039
rather improve the country and improve the lives of those

851
00:46:01,079 --> 00:46:03,320
living there, in both black and white. And it worked

852
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,840
quite well, but that was entirely ignored by the international

853
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,159
community because it was paternalistic rather than just nonsensical government

854
00:46:11,199 --> 00:46:12,039
welfare policies.

855
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot of people have a difficulty

856
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,960
separating egalitarianism from good policy that keeps order.

857
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 2: Yes, I think.

858
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,559
Speaker 1: I think also a lot of people have to me

859
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,920
the difference between right wing and left wing, true right

860
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,360
wing and left wing is whether one's egalitarian or one

861
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,320
is not. And then you will have people who will

862
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,280
argue that, like, there are historic groups we probably know

863
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:42,920
who I'm referring to who call themselves socialists, but because

864
00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:46,079
because they call themselves socialists, that means that they're left wingers.

865
00:46:46,119 --> 00:46:51,280
And then I asked, well were they egalitarian? People are like, well, well,

866
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:57,480
there were egalitarian towards their own that's that's not called that.

867
00:46:57,599 --> 00:47:01,159
You're not you're using that term. I'm wrong, you're using

868
00:47:01,199 --> 00:47:04,519
that term. You're vending that term to make your point.

869
00:47:04,639 --> 00:47:08,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a famous quote from Lord Birkenhead about the

870
00:47:08,159 --> 00:47:11,519
Cecil family, which was heavily involved in British politics from

871
00:47:11,519 --> 00:47:14,519
Elizabeth the first up until the mid twentieth century, that

872
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:16,960
as in humans as in race horses, there's a great

873
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,119
deal of there's a great case to be made for

874
00:47:19,159 --> 00:47:23,079
the hereditary principle. I always think it's funny, but it

875
00:47:23,079 --> 00:47:25,519
also really is true. If you look at Rhodesia as

876
00:47:25,559 --> 00:47:28,880
opposed to be Yeah, they just like operated based on

877
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,199
that and the result was higher living standards in the

878
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,679
successful country. And you know, the same could be said

879
00:47:34,679 --> 00:47:37,360
of Singapore. Probably a leak one U was an egalitarian.

880
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,920
He just made it a successful country by operating based

881
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,679
on rational principle. Similarly with Bukela today. Or this gangster

882
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,440
probably isn't going to be a good guy because he's

883
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,159
been a gangster for his whole life. So we'll just

884
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,239
throw him in jail and throw away the key. It

885
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:53,920
makes a great deal more sense than saying, well, I

886
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,119
know this person is murdered like seven other people, but

887
00:47:56,119 --> 00:47:57,880
if we only let him out the eighth time, then

888
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,920
that'll really be when he shines and takes us to Mars.

889
00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:04,320
It's it's absurd, but most of our policy today is

890
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:09,519
based on the idea that, for whatever reason, it's true, Well.

891
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: There's a certain group of a group of us who

892
00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:19,119
you know, romanticize Rhodesia. I guess that's that's where what

893
00:48:19,159 --> 00:48:21,960
we should talk about next, is that the legacy of

894
00:48:22,039 --> 00:48:26,199
Rhodesia that we we look at it and you know,

895
00:48:26,519 --> 00:48:30,760
I wonder how if I know it's pronounced different ways.

896
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,280
But you know if one hundred years from now, if Irania,

897
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,400
if they're still around, if they will be looked upon

898
00:48:36,519 --> 00:48:42,480
as the in the same way. But there's uh, yeah,

899
00:48:42,559 --> 00:48:45,760
there's a way of you know, people who are educated

900
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,079
in the subject look back and they're like, well, this

901
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:54,360
is order they were. Everything was orderly, people got along

902
00:48:54,599 --> 00:48:59,320
even though it was a multicultural society. And yeah, and

903
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:04,559
it wasn't an until of course it's always outside influence

904
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:11,920
influencing people on the inside. And yeah, so what is

905
00:49:12,639 --> 00:49:15,440
what why do we talk about Rhodesia.

906
00:49:16,079 --> 00:49:18,119
Speaker 2: So there are a few things. One, and it has

907
00:49:18,159 --> 00:49:20,840
to be said, is that their aesthetics were incredible either,

908
00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:23,360
like there's only so many places now where there are

909
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,800
like skinny people wearing shorts that don't just horrify you

910
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,199
to look at. In addition to that, they're carrying fails,

911
00:49:29,199 --> 00:49:31,400
which is probably the coolest looking gun of the Cold War.

912
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,079
So they really nailed it on that angle. And Rhodesian

913
00:49:34,079 --> 00:49:36,760
brush stroke is an awesome cameo. So they have all

914
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,599
those points in those in their favor where you know,

915
00:49:39,199 --> 00:49:41,000
it's a lot. It's a great deal more fun to

916
00:49:41,039 --> 00:49:43,320
post a picture of a sell a scout or Rhodesian

917
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,639
light infantryman than say, like a Portuguese private in those

918
00:49:47,679 --> 00:49:49,239
z Mbique they I.

919
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,039
Speaker 1: Don't think people, I don't think people really get how

920
00:49:53,119 --> 00:49:56,920
important aesthetics is. Yeah, yeah, I mean it really is

921
00:49:57,119 --> 00:50:00,599
to to the right, because you know, if you look

922
00:50:00,679 --> 00:50:03,440
at you know, if you compare the you know, the

923
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:08,079
Austrian painter's crew and Stalin's crew, or the way Lenin

924
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,480
dressed on a regular basis, it's like, really, which one

925
00:50:11,519 --> 00:50:14,239
would you how would you rather dress?

926
00:50:14,679 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: I mean, well, even using the Soviets, particularly later, like

927
00:50:18,559 --> 00:50:21,559
the posters are pretty cool. I pore the Soviet Empire

928
00:50:21,559 --> 00:50:24,159
and all that, but they did nail the pictures were

929
00:50:24,199 --> 00:50:27,800
Now I think people feel less ridiculous posting a picture

930
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,400
of a pretend Soviet coal miner than a picture of

931
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,199
the real thing, because they got the aesthetics right in

932
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,639
the picture. Not that you're wrong about how they looked

933
00:50:35,679 --> 00:50:39,320
at your life, but you know, they like to use

934
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,840
the term very very loosely. The non free countries I

935
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,639
think of the twentieth century understood that and tried to

936
00:50:44,679 --> 00:50:47,119
look cool because you know, it made people think they

937
00:50:47,159 --> 00:50:49,639
were cool. In Rhodesia was really the only country in

938
00:50:49,679 --> 00:50:54,360
the Anglo sphere to not slouch towards unrespectability. You know,

939
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:56,239
like if you go outside the day, everyone you see

940
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,159
dress would probably be arrested for indecency. Even one hundred

941
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,119
years ago, they were men more tales rather than t shirts.

942
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,679
And it's just Rhodesia didn't do that. They'd dressed better

943
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:08,400
and looked a lot cooler. And I think that really

944
00:51:08,559 --> 00:51:10,719
is why like a lot of particularly people who don't

945
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,199
care about it ideologically love Rhodesia, is because they looked

946
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:20,039
quite cool. Beyond that, the other thing is that it's

947
00:51:20,159 --> 00:51:22,519
really the counter example of what the West could have

948
00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:26,079
been like. Had Jackson not been elected, had the first

949
00:51:26,119 --> 00:51:28,800
Performed Bill not been passed, because of the unpleasantness on

950
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,000
the continent, England and America would have been very different places.

951
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,440
All the problems we have with now would be replaced

952
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,519
by different problems, but I think much more solvable ones.

953
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,559
There are certain things that can be done in a

954
00:51:39,599 --> 00:51:41,960
country that's wealthy and ruled by the best rather than

955
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,360
obscenely wealthy and ruled by the worst. Because you don't

956
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,880
get welfare policies in a place like Rhodesia, you might

957
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,280
get assistance to help build places up, but you're not

958
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,960
going to have like social security or food stamps or medicare,

959
00:51:54,119 --> 00:51:57,039
and Rhodesia because they have no reason to do it.

960
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,440
It's a successful country and everyone's expected to be a

961
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,920
successful adult human being, rather than you know, a modern

962
00:52:04,039 --> 00:52:07,840
mass democracy, where I think because of the egalitarianism we

963
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,440
talked about earlier, the ideas that if someone fails as

964
00:52:10,519 --> 00:52:14,480
society's fault rather than that person's innate flaws. I don't

965
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,039
really read Tom Clancy, but in one of his books

966
00:52:17,039 --> 00:52:19,559
he described America as the land of pills for every

967
00:52:19,599 --> 00:52:22,519
problem and disorders for every character flaw. And I think

968
00:52:22,559 --> 00:52:26,440
that really is true. And Rhodesia as the counter example,

969
00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:29,719
we're instead of saying, well, you know, we really need

970
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,199
to hear from the convicted convict what he thinks of

971
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:37,199
tariff policy regarding German automobiles or Italian suits or whatever,

972
00:52:37,599 --> 00:52:40,199
we should just have like a department that handles that,

973
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,800
and the people have shown themselves to be committed citizens

974
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,000
that are successful handle it. And that's what Rhodesia did

975
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,480
their land policy. I know I've mentioned him a few times,

976
00:52:48,519 --> 00:52:52,280
but the Duke of Mantros developed Rhodesian land policy, particularly

977
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,599
as regarding like what land would be set aside somewhat

978
00:52:55,599 --> 00:52:58,760
like Indian reservations for the blacks to buy as they

979
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,119
wanted to, so they could become landed voters and have

980
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,719
farms of their own. And it was quite successful in

981
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,079
getting the blacks on their side. It was about a

982
00:53:06,079 --> 00:53:09,159
fifty to fifty split of the arable land below where

983
00:53:09,159 --> 00:53:12,880
the saese fly makes it more less uninhabitable, and it

984
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,639
was a prudent policy that now Americans would either on

985
00:53:16,639 --> 00:53:18,800
one side be uncomfortable because the government is selling land,

986
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:20,679
or uncomfortable on the other because it wasn't just given

987
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:24,079
away free to the villages to be wasted. But it

988
00:53:24,199 --> 00:53:26,360
was a successful prudent policy that I think split the

989
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,639
middle and made it where the blacks felt more like

990
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,920
citizens that could participate in Rudesian society and the white

991
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,960
still of land where they could buy the great estates

992
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,119
and farm them for export. So it worked well, and

993
00:53:36,199 --> 00:53:37,880
that's the sort of policy you get from a place

994
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,159
like Rhodesia. And I think when we look back at it,

995
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,679
people see it and like it because they can tell

996
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,039
just from looking at it in the aesthetics. But then

997
00:53:46,119 --> 00:53:47,920
also if you hear a speech of Ian Smith's or

998
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,280
if you read about any policy they engaged in, it's

999
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:52,880
a smart one and it's one that you would never

1000
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,800
get out of DC today with either side in charge,

1001
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:58,360
just because it's like one that makes sense and isn't

1002
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,880
either ideologically captured or just meant to be poork for

1003
00:54:02,159 --> 00:54:03,639
a base that doesn't really know what's going on.

1004
00:54:07,159 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, yeah, I've said this that I think

1005
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:18,039
a lot of like boomers, And yeah, I would say

1006
00:54:18,159 --> 00:54:22,880
a lot of conservatives in general tend to be like

1007
00:54:23,079 --> 00:54:29,639
pro Israel more so. Yeah, maybe equal you know, the

1008
00:54:29,679 --> 00:54:34,199
whole eschatological religious side of it, but which is a

1009
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:38,599
complete falsehood. But also because they see a country where

1010
00:54:40,199 --> 00:54:47,239
the borders are closed and they they present as caring

1011
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:51,039
about their own people, they present as wanting to protect

1012
00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:53,360
their own people. And I mean you can just look

1013
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,679
around this country for decades and try to find that person,

1014
00:54:57,920 --> 00:54:59,920
you know, and even when you look back, you realize,

1015
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:05,000
you know, that wasn't Ronald Reagan. No, Ronald Reagan. You know,

1016
00:55:05,599 --> 00:55:10,440
amnesty bills and machine you know, machine guns and all

1017
00:55:10,519 --> 00:55:14,360
these things that that he did that you know, really

1018
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:20,239
started the downfall. And yeah, I think that that's another

1019
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:25,360
thing that a lot of this regime, this post war

1020
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:31,360
regime hates is anyone who stands up in front of

1021
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,920
their country, especially if their country is predominantly European, White,

1022
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:40,920
or Christian, and speaks directly to the people and loves

1023
00:55:41,039 --> 00:55:44,119
his loves their own, loves his people. You know, you

1024
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,519
can say that Vladimir Putin doesn't love his own people,

1025
00:55:47,639 --> 00:55:51,239
that he's lying, but at least it outwardly looks like

1026
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,840
he loves his own people. And I think that goes

1027
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,920
to his approval ratings and it goes to how you know,

1028
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:01,440
but that just seems to when you look at a

1029
00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:06,199
place like Rhodesia, where they loved everyone, They loved the

1030
00:56:06,519 --> 00:56:11,320
whites there, love loved the blacks, and saw a like

1031
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,280
a no blessed oubliege towards these people who are you know,

1032
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,400
who have lower IQs than them, And it's like you

1033
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:21,159
look at that and you're like, they could that could

1034
00:56:21,199 --> 00:56:25,519
have lasted, but it couldn't last in the post Nuremberg world.

1035
00:56:26,039 --> 00:56:29,079
It just wasn't allowed. That's not allowed. You're not allowed

1036
00:56:29,119 --> 00:56:31,360
to love your own people. You're not allowed to have

1037
00:56:31,599 --> 00:56:35,480
pride because it's a danger to you know, the line,

1038
00:56:35,679 --> 00:56:38,079
the whole line go up crew the whole, you know,

1039
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,639
where they were all economic we're all economic units crew.

1040
00:56:42,199 --> 00:56:46,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like the post World War two like focus on

1041
00:56:46,679 --> 00:56:50,320
the economy, Uberles is particularly weird. But really I think

1042
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,760
it's not just that, Like he even had World War

1043
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,000
one and two not happened, I think we'd be dealing

1044
00:56:56,079 --> 00:56:58,360
with a lot of the similar problems that we are,

1045
00:56:59,559 --> 00:57:04,239
just because it's really at its route, the same thing

1046
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,880
that led to the reform Bill and Jackson, where we're

1047
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,519
supposed to believe that everyone just can be interchangeable, even

1048
00:57:10,559 --> 00:57:13,440
if the focus is on you know, national glory or

1049
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:18,039
whatever instead of just purely the economy. Like if you

1050
00:57:18,119 --> 00:57:23,239
read Barbara Tuckman's The Proud Tower, it's a very normal book.

1051
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,199
It's not based in any way. But there were a

1052
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,280
lot of problems before the Great War that I think

1053
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,679
were caused by democracy. So Rhodesia is useful as a

1054
00:57:33,719 --> 00:57:35,760
counter example, not just to the post World War two

1055
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:39,639
regime though that's that's started startingly clear looking at it,

1056
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:43,400
but also the post of eighteen thirty six or thirty

1057
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,880
two excuse me, world, just because they dodged a lot

1058
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:48,679
of those problems by not going along with it. They

1059
00:57:48,679 --> 00:57:50,280
said no you're gonna have to show some commitment to

1060
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,679
the country by owning land or property or business here,

1061
00:57:52,719 --> 00:57:55,880
and only then can you vote when we see that

1062
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,400
you're responsible or able to manage money and not just

1063
00:57:58,559 --> 00:58:04,159
lose everything. Britain, for example, didn't have the importation problem

1064
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,840
of various Third world ers until it was wind rushed

1065
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,119
in forty eight or something. It was under Atlee, and

1066
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,519
it's been a disaster since then, as anyone can tell

1067
00:58:13,559 --> 00:58:16,199
you from the country. But it was also a shithole

1068
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,880
before then. Atlete had already made the country a hell,

1069
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:20,800
and it had been horrible in the inter war period too,

1070
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:24,159
largely because they just taxed the successful and made the

1071
00:58:24,199 --> 00:58:27,679
country a hell. I know, like attacking socialism is cringe

1072
00:58:27,719 --> 00:58:29,760
now on the right, but really like it did make

1073
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,079
Britain just awful, and that place was formally the leader

1074
00:58:33,119 --> 00:58:35,119
of the world in terms of industry and trade and

1075
00:58:35,519 --> 00:58:38,960
you know, making life bearable and good for all those

1076
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,400
living in it, whether laborers or not. And they got

1077
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,639
rid of all that because of democratic impulses and made

1078
00:58:43,679 --> 00:58:46,480
it just the nanny state that it is now. And

1079
00:58:46,559 --> 00:58:49,519
that's far worse because they have like twelve million Pakistanis

1080
00:58:49,599 --> 00:58:51,840
or whatever but it'd be bad even with help them.

1081
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: Well somebody, I can't remember what this quote was, but

1082
00:58:56,519 --> 00:59:02,000
it was very very simple. It was Britain traded empire

1083
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:04,400
and glory for the NHS.

1084
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:09,239
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's a great quote. Yeah, that's insane. It

1085
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,239
makes no sense. Most of them don't even use the NHS.

1086
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:15,039
And this is one thing like when you travel to Europe.

1087
00:59:15,239 --> 00:59:16,639
When we were talking to someone who had like a

1088
00:59:16,679 --> 00:59:18,800
broken leg and she wasn't able to go there for

1089
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,119
two more months because there was no waitlist. A yeah.

1090
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,679
Not to rattle on about the NHS, not really the

1091
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:28,159
point of this podcast, but it is really startling to

1092
00:59:28,239 --> 00:59:32,239
look at Britain really before probably Winston Churchill and Wood

1093
00:59:32,239 --> 00:59:35,400
George's Parliament Bill in nineteen eleven for the People's Budget

1094
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:37,880
of nineteen oh nine that sparked it in the Britain

1095
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:41,440
that followed. It's entirely different countries and one is the

1096
00:59:41,519 --> 00:59:43,079
one we think of when we think of Britain and

1097
00:59:43,159 --> 00:59:45,519
the other is some like socialist hell that you'd rather

1098
00:59:45,599 --> 00:59:46,559
live in Poland then.

1099
00:59:49,559 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well I appreciate it, thanks for the talk.

1100
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:56,360
Do you what do you have to promote?

1101
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, so follow me on Twitter I'm at will

1102
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,719
Underscore ten Underscore one that's where I post all my

1103
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:07,119
work and my ramblings on the other is on substack,

1104
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,880
the American Tribune dot News. That's a I do other

1105
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:12,599
things as well, but those probably the two. They're of

1106
01:00:12,719 --> 01:00:15,760
interest to people listening to this on the substack. Like

1107
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:18,239
I talked about earlier, I mainly focused on Europe before

1108
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:22,920
the Great War and on decolonization and its horrors, particularly

1109
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:25,199
South Africa and Rhodesia, just because I think those are

1110
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,159
ones with which we in America can relate, particularly if

1111
01:00:28,199 --> 01:00:32,000
you live in a southern city like Atlanta something. You know,

1112
01:00:32,079 --> 01:00:33,239
what's going on in you Hannesburg.

1113
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: I am not. I am. I no longer have to

1114
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:41,360
suffer that, thank god. Now I just now I just

1115
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,639
have to worry about bus loads of Haitian showing up.

1116
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,719
Speaker 2: Which they might, but uh, you know, get it, get

1117
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:49,480
your undercar flamethrower. Like you're living in South Africa, we

1118
01:00:49,559 --> 01:00:50,800
might as well embrace the mad Max.

1119
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 1: I don't think I could pull off the shorts.

1120
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:56,559
Speaker 2: Well.

1121
01:00:56,559 --> 01:00:57,199
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

1122
01:00:57,239 --> 01:01:18,039
Speaker 2: Thank you, yeah, thanks for having me on s