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True Murder with your host 35 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:37.120 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 36 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:52.280 Good Evening. Michael Benson is one of today's most popular 37 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:56.959 true crime writers. His books including Betrayal in Blood Murder 38 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:03.319 and Connecticut Killer Twins, The Burned Mummy, Deadliest, A Killer's Touch, 39 00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:07.359 Evil Season, Watch Mummy Die, A Knife in the Heart, 40 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:13.280 Escape from Danimora, Nightmare in Rochester, Haunting Homicides, and The 41 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:17.400 Devil at Genesee Junction tell vividly of today's most heinous 42 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:21.240 criminals and the clever and stalwart lawman who bring them 43 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:24.719 to justice. He is currently a regular commentator for two 44 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:28.159 true crime series, Evil Twins and Evil Kin on the 45 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:32.879 Investigation Discovery ID channel, and also had made guest appearances 46 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:38.080 on that channel's Evil Stepmoms, Deadly Sins, Southern Fried Homicide, 47 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:41.560 and on the case with Paula's On a Devil at 48 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:44.400 Genese Junction tells the story of his return to the 49 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:47.719 scene of a childhood trauma. Two of his friends were 50 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:51.319 murdered and mutilated near his rural home south of Rochester, 51 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:54.919 New York, when he was nine. Those murders were never solved. 52 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:58.439 As an adult and veteran true crime writer, Benson teamed 53 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:00.240 up with the mother of one of the victims and 54 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:03.639 a local private investigator to heat up that cold case 55 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:07.439 and propel it in a startling new direction. During his 56 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:11.080 three decades as professional writer, Benson has worked closely with 57 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:14.400 a retired Army intelligence agent during the ten Stays After 58 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:17.319 nine to eleven for a book about the CIA, and 59 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:20.840 with a retired FBI agent for a book about national security. 60 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:23.719 Co written two books with a former New York Police 61 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:27.199 Department Cop of the Year, explored the Grassey Noel in 62 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:31.280 Dallas with a former KGB agent while researching his much 63 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:36.599 acclaimed Who's Who in the jfk Assassination, collaborated efficiently with 64 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:41.120 an astronaut, and covered the Stephen Hayes triple murder trial 65 00:03:41.479 --> 00:03:45.719 in New Haven, Connecticut for The New York Post. The 66 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:51.639 episode Tonight is Michael Benson True Crime Retrospective with my 67 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:58.039 special guest, artist, writer, filmmaker, and true crime author extraordinaire 68 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:02.680 Michael Benson. Welcome to the Welcome back to the program, 69 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:05.240 and thank you very much for this, Thanks for having 70 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:10.120 me retrospective. Thank you so much. As I was saying 71 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:14.000 when I looked, just to do more research for this 72 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:16.560 after I've had you on now. This is the ninth 73 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:21.000 appearance I believe, covering nine of your now true crime. 74 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:25.800 It almost looks like there's another Michael Benson, the filmmaker 75 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.879 and artist. And because when I mentioned to you for 76 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:36.199 the audience, when you mentioned prolific, When you say prolific author, 77 00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:37.959 then you have Michael Benson. 78 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:43.759 Well, there is another Michael Benson. I am not the filmmaker. 79 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:46.800 I'd like to consider myself an artist. But there's another 80 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:55.079 Michael Benson who writes books about planets and satellite photography. 81 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.480 And sometimes I'm confused with him. I wrote a book 82 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.199 called The Complete Idiot's Guide to NASA, So people tend 83 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:04.160 to confuse us because he also writes about outer space 84 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:06.839 and stuff. But as far as I know, I am 85 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:08.759 the only Michael Benson who writes true. 86 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:12.639 Crime, absolutely, and with what we're talking about tonight, you're 87 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:20.160 this true crime retrospective. Let's talk about how you got involved, 88 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:25.600 where you grew up, and before we talk about something 89 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:29.920 that happened in nineteen sixty six that helped shape your career, 90 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:32.160 not that you knew it at the time you were 91 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:36.000 nine years old. Let's talk about your early life, where 92 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.759 you grew up, and before we talk about how you 93 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:40.480 got started in writing period. 94 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:45.240 Okay, Well, I was born in Rochester, New York, considered 95 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:47.160 to a large extent in my hometown, even though I've 96 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:50.959 lived in Brooklyn for a long time. Lived my first 97 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:53.439 five years in the city of Rochester. When I was six, 98 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.160 we moved to the town of Chili. It's spelt like Chile, 99 00:05:57.279 --> 00:05:59.879 but it's pronounced Chili, and that's just south of Rochester. 100 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:02.959 Had you never seen the show Green Acres, I think 101 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:04.519 that was my dad. He wanted to live in the 102 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:07.480 country and he had his job in the city, so 103 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:10.680 we moved to the end of a dirt road, as 104 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:12.399 my kids called it when they were visiting Grandma and 105 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:17.680 Grandpa in the middle of nowhere, and it was just 106 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:20.399 a great place for a little kid to grow up. 107 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:24.120 I mean there were third paths everywhere. You take a 108 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:26.879 bee line to each other's houses through the woods. We 109 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:31.160 had treehouses, roots, cellar forts. There was a field of 110 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:36.120 wild strawberries spelled great. Come June, go out and pick strawberries, 111 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:39.399 come back with a bucket full. We played war cowboys 112 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:43.519 and Indians. We had a barn, no horses, but the 113 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:48.000 barn was still there. The Black Creek was the northern 114 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.000 border of my dad's property, so we'd go fishing. Lots 115 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:55.519 of adventures in the woods, but it stopped being idyllic 116 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:59.199 on June twenty fifth, nineteen sixty six, when something really 117 00:06:59.240 --> 00:06:59.879 bad happened. 118 00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:06.600 What happened and how did it affect this community? 119 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:12.959 Well, my babysitter, Georgie and Formacola and her good friend 120 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:17.040 Kathy Bernhard from down the road had just purchased new 121 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:18.720 bathing suits and wanted to try them out. So they 122 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:21.800 went through a swimming hole behind my house in Black Creek. 123 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:25.639 And the swimming hole was right next to an ancient 124 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:31.279 stone trestle that originally was built to for the mules 125 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:34.319 to tug barges on the Genesee Valley Canal. Canal was 126 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:42.240 long gone, and now it took railroad tracks across Black Creek, 127 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:44.879 but there was a nice swimming hole there and it 128 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.160 was a place where police never went, so it was 129 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:50.439 sort of the domain of teenagers. And in the daytime 130 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:52.560 kids go swimming there. At nighttime kids go back there 131 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:57.279 drink beer. And on June twenty fifth, nineteen sixty six, 132 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:03.759 they went back to go swimming around dust and never returned. Now, 133 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.680 at first, you know, there was a lot of optimistic 134 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:11.199 thinking perhaps they'd just run off, and the mother said 135 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.279 that I couldn't be the case because all they had 136 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:15.560 was their bathing suits and a towel. You know, they 137 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:17.639 didn't take their perse, they didn't take their makeup, nothing, 138 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.959 So well, maybe they got picked up by men, and 139 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:28.759 who knows, But the optimist optimism died a couple of 140 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:34.840 days after they disappeared, when Kathy's transistor radio her prize possession, 141 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:40.159 was found broken in the weeds, so it was pretty 142 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:44.360 obvious the girls had been taken by force. So for 143 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:48.840 a month they were missing, and then one day in July, 144 00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:53.879 a farmer two miles to the west of our property 145 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.279 found the remains of the girls in the weeds, next 146 00:08:58.279 --> 00:08:59.840 to the same railroad tracks, but down the line of 147 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:04.080 the way and just thought of a lover's lane and 148 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:09.879 they'd been horribly mutilated with a knife, sexually mutilated, details 149 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:15.279 of which I overheard adults talking about. So yeah, here, 150 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:17.279 I'm a nine year I don't even know if the facts. 151 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:21.039 I like that, and I'm learning about sex crimes before 152 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:23.559 I'm learning about sex And it was traumatic, and the 153 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:25.639 whole neighborhood did change. It was a dark cloud came 154 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:30.440 over our area sort of stayed. No more paths through 155 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:34.159 the woods. Everybody had to stay in their own yard, 156 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:40.720 and it became bleak, and I became obsessed with finding 157 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.960 out what happened to those girls because the case wasn't solved. 158 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:47.000 You know, there was a booking man out there and 159 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:50.639 perhaps living nearby, and we didn't know who he was. 160 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.519 So I grew up to become a true crime writer. 161 00:09:56.039 --> 00:10:00.960 And that's not a coincidence. That's I wanted, you know, 162 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:03.399 right from the time I was twelve, I started to 163 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:08.559 write about the murders. And I finished the book about 164 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:12.360 the murders forty seven years later. Wow, A lot a 165 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:16.399 lot happened in between. I went to college, I got 166 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:21.039 a degree, graduated with honors from hofstin university degree in journalism, 167 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:26.600 communication Arts, and after bouncing around a little bit, I 168 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:29.120 got a job as a magazine editor for the Starlock 169 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:33.360 Group and during that time I launched my first adult 170 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:36.519 investigation into those murders. Didn't have a book in mind, 171 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:41.559 I just wanted to know. What I found was that 172 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:47.279 there was a fellow named Arthur Shawcross sure right, all 173 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:52.200 of your listeners have heard of and he was He 174 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:56.159 was arrested for killing a series of sex workers in Rochester. 175 00:10:57.360 --> 00:10:59.720 And I investigated him and found out that during the 176 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:02.759 summer nineteen sixty six, he was twenty one years old 177 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:05.399 and was driving around upstate New York of looking for 178 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:11.720 places to fish, and the show put him potentially near 179 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:20.600 Black Creek. Now you know, he was having problems with 180 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:28.879 his then wife, He had sexual problems. He kind of 181 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:34.519 misunderstood what the affection and consent was all about. He 182 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:39.480 was he He went on to kill two children in Watertown, 183 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:42.519 New York a few years later, but this was in 184 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:44.919 nineteen sixty six. As far as we know, had never 185 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:47.960 hurt anybody. He was an expert with a knife. He 186 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:54.399 hunted deer and could dress game. He once talked about 187 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:57.039 wanting to kill a doe so that he could use 188 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:02.120 his hunting knife to remove the animal's vagina, which me 189 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:04.919 is you know that that sent up a red flag 190 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:10.679 considering my victims were sexually mutilated. Now, as a young adult, 191 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:18.639 he worked as an apprentice butcher, and he was I 192 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:24.480 thought a very good candidate to become the we could 193 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:28.759 to be the killer of the Childie girls. But I 194 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:31.360 got in touch with the Monroe County Sheriff, sent a 195 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:35.000 nice letter explaining all my stuff, and they sent a 196 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:38.919 team to the prison to talk to Arthur Shawcross. Confronted 197 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:42.879 him with pictures of the Childie girls, and he closed 198 00:12:42.919 --> 00:12:44.720 his eyes, quenched his fists, and put his chin on 199 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:47.480 his chest, which I understand was the same reaction he 200 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:51.919 had when people asked him questions about his mother. So 201 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:54.240 he was given a chance to deny doing it and didn't, 202 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:58.799 and I was told that's about as far as he 203 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:02.159 can go with that. And I realized that in order 204 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:08.440 for me to really do justice to the case in investigation, 205 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:13.000 I needed to know about the original investigation in nineteen 206 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:15.759 sixty six, and to do that I needed to have 207 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:19.639 the rights of next to kin, which I didn't have. 208 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:25.000 And life went on. I had a very mediocre career 209 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:31.759 as a sportswriter, but every time I had a lunch 210 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.240 with a acquisition editor from a publisher, I always told 211 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:37.480 the story of what happened when I was nine and 212 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:40.519 what a great book I thought it would make. And 213 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.200 what happened was Gary Goldstein from Kensaday Books gave me 214 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:45.600 a call one day. He says, you're for Rochester, right, 215 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:48.039 I said yeah. He said, well, there's a murder in 216 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:52.840 Rochester that I really think you should write about. Beautiful 217 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:56.240 young woman was murdered and her husband and her half 218 00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:02.000 brother have been arrested for the crime. And that's when 219 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:08.480 my official true crime career began. I'd also ghost written 220 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:12.120 a book, a true crime book the year before, which 221 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:14.679 went to number four on the New York Times bestseller list, 222 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:17.279 but my name wasn't on it, but people in the 223 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:19.960 industry knew who had actually written it, and that was 224 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:21.799 another reason why Gary gave me a call. 225 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:27.399 Amazing. Now you're referring to your book in two thousand 226 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:28.840 and three, Betrayal in Blood. 227 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:36.679 That's correct. Yes, that's the story of Tabitha Bryant. It's 228 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:39.960 a pretty twenty six year old mother of two and 229 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:42.159 she was shot and stabbed to death in her own 230 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:45.440 living room while her husband and two children slept upstairs. 231 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:47.960 Happened July fourteenth, two thousand and three. Year was a 232 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:54.279 hot night, and the book taught me a lesson in 233 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:59.360 human depravity. I mean, it turned out that the woman's 234 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:05.639 half brother killed her in exchange for cocaine money Jesus. 235 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:09.639 I mean, the husband wanted the wife killed. And although 236 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:13.000 that's horrible, it kind of happens all the time. The 237 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.120 husband's always the number one suspect, but hiring you know, 238 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:18.679 her brother to do it for him sort of gave 239 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:22.919 it that special edge of depravity that you know, I 240 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:26.600 think you look for in a successful true murder story. 241 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:32.960 It still astounds me that that, you know, Cyril Winebrenner, 242 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:38.200 the brother would be so addicted to cocaine that his 243 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:42.720 sister would seem dispensable to him in exchange for you know, 244 00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:44.759 a couple of weeks of really doing some good blow. 245 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:46.399 Yeah. 246 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:51.480 The most important interview I had of doing that book 247 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.159 was with the mother. And she's the mother of both 248 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:59.559 the victim and the killer, and she didn't know how 249 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.159 to feel. She was bouncing back and forth. She loved 250 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:06.720 them both, and I asked her if she was going 251 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:09.440 to go to the trial, and she said, now, I can't. 252 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:11.399 I wouldn't know which side of the courtroom to sit on. 253 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:14.240 Wow. 254 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:21.519 But and anyway, the book did really well and I 255 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:24.759 immediately got another job, and this time teaming up with 256 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:31.240 a friend of mine named Robert Maladinich, who was a 257 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:36.679 NYPD detective and one time Cop of the Year for 258 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:40.799 unbelievably brave thing he did. Once and we met well. 259 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.200 I was writing for a magazine, you know, in my 260 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:48.240 mediocre sports career. I was writing for Bert Sugars Fight 261 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.200 Game magazine and we were covering heavyweight championship fights. Bob 262 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:55.919 was freelancing for Ring Magazine at the time, and we 263 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:57.480 sat next to each other in the corral where the 264 00:16:57.480 --> 00:16:59.960 press sits next to the ring, and he told me 265 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.840 his story. How about he went to Brockport State which 266 00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:08.279 is near Rochester, and his he had a friend named 267 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:12.799 Joel Riskin in college and they covered fights together. He 268 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:16.119 would write about it and Joel took photographs. And then 269 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.920 Joel dropped out of school and they lost touch. Didn't 270 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:22.799 speak to another for twenty years until Joel was arrested 271 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.839 for being a serial killer on long Island, and here's 272 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.319 the old college buddy is getting together again. One's a 273 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.720 serial killer and one's a homicide detective, so a lot. 274 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:36.480 It's a pretty good story. But I have one too, 275 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.960 and I told him my story when I was nine, 276 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:45.359 and we both agreed that our books deserve to be published, 277 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:52.160 and eventually they both were. So that's our first book 278 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:57.519 I'd do with Bob was Lethal Embrace. Right, So they 279 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:01.759 told us, try to make your title combined sex and violence. 280 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:08.480 So Lethal Embrace right in the Murder cobout in January seventeenth. Yeah, 281 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.640 go ahead. 282 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:14.920 You talk about Lethal Embrace and then teaming up with 283 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:21.079 Robert malanititch. But in Murder in Connecticut in two thousand 284 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:23.960 and eight, this is an extraordinary case. We mentioned it 285 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:26.240 in the did you cover this for the New York Post? 286 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:29.599 Tell us about this, I mean, if you were hardened 287 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:33.279 by betrayal and blood in that case, and then Lethal Embrace, 288 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:37.160 tell us about a little bit about murdering Connecticut and 289 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:38.279 being involved with that. 290 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:44.119 Yeah, you know, if I had one regret in my 291 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:49.400 crime writing career, Murder in Connecticut came out too soon. 292 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:55.680 It was the publisher's goal to become the first book out. 293 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.960 And this is the case where two creeps in Cheshire, Connecticut, 294 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.559 broke into a house, hit the dad, who was a 295 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:07.640 successful physician, over the head with a baseball bat, and 296 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.680 then tied him up downstairs, and then proceeded to rob 297 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:17.000 and rape the mom and two daughters upstairs, and then 298 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:20.559 on their way out, they spread gasoline around and lit 299 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:28.519 it and all three women died horribly. His dad managed 300 00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:32.920 to get free himself when he heard screams and made 301 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:35.240 it into the backyard and started to yell. At that 302 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:37.799 point somebody called the cops. Somebody saw smoke and called 303 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:44.440 the fire department, and the authorities arrived and captured the 304 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:49.440 guys right away coming out of the house. The two kids, 305 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.720 Mikayla and Haley, were eleven and seventeen at the time. 306 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.200 I had two children, they were eleven and seventeen at 307 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:02.240 the time, so I took it very personally. And the 308 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:08.119 community was just very distraught. It's an upscale community. Things 309 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.599 like that just don't happen there. They were angry, they 310 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:15.359 were a little embarrassed by it. They're just grieving their 311 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.440 brains out. That is so sad. And six months after 312 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:24.720 the crime, my book Murder in Connecticut comes out, and 313 00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:27.960 I'm getting death threats because there are only so many 314 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.039 emotions they can feel on the subject, and anger is 315 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:33.759 being focused in me. I had to do radio interviews 316 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.920 to defend myself, and the book itself is nothing worthy 317 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.279 of a death threat. The crime is described, but the 318 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:43.599 second half of the book is all about how wonderful 319 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:45.680 the community is and how they rallied around the doctor 320 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:51.119 and just try to be as positive as possible. And 321 00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:56.039 then when Stephen Hayes was tried in new Haven, Connecticut 322 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:02.160 for the triple homicide, signed by the New York Post 323 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:09.440 to be their freelancer, and it was just devastating to me. 324 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:14.000 I didn't sleep for days and days and days. I 325 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.759 wrote up the first day in the elevator with doctor Pettitt. 326 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:20.920 It's a strong, sturdy man, and I can remember very 327 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.880 well sitting in the courtroom when they brought Hayes in 328 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:28.559 and I felt blasted backward by his evil and it's 329 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:31.480 like a wind of evil hit me and made me recoil. 330 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:36.039 After a while that wore off, and I saw him 331 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:39.359 just as a little worm. In the contrast between the 332 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:43.880 worm of a defendant and the huge dad of the 333 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:48.799 representing the victims was just so stark. But probably the 334 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.119 worst part was they chose twelve members of the media 335 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:53.440 and I know it was twelve because they put us 336 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:55.960 in the jury box. Chose twelve members of the media 337 00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:01.559 to show the crime scenes photos too. I got to 338 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:08.400 see the poor burned ladies, and it was pretty much 339 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:10.400 ready to throw up. I walked out of the courthouse 340 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:15.839 and was grabbed by CBS News and they put me 341 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:22.079 on the air in that condition. And I've never seen it, 342 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.880 but people from all over texted me at the time 343 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:28.519 tell me how great it was. And I don't know. 344 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:30.799 I can remember blurting out that. You know, I'm not 345 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:33.279 a big proponent of the death penalty, but I think 346 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:36.319 there's three cases where it's called for, and that's you know, 347 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:39.720 guys who commit murders in prison, who are already serving life, 348 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:46.960 cop killers, and these two bastards. Yeah, so it was 349 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:50.799 the whole thing was just scruciating and and if I 350 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:52.799 could do it over again, I would have written the 351 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:55.400 same book, but I would have had it published a 352 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.799 year later. They're given that town a little chance to heal. 353 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:02.039 Before all the sudden, the reporters were back and there 354 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:04.559 were new questions to answer all regarding me. 355 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:10.279 Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating how you could get in the 356 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:13.400 crosshairs in there just doing. 357 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:18.519 Some r and I knew it was coming too. I said, well, 358 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:21.359 what what what are we going to do when people 359 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:23.960 start yelling at me? And then the publishers no such 360 00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:29.920 thing as bad publicity, not for him, Yeah, the other 361 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:35.559 they're just going kaching. I've never done this for money. 362 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:37.759 I've never taken on a case because I thought it 363 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:41.000 would make the most money. It's always the ones that 364 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:43.839 set a fire inside me somehow, and this one sure did. 365 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.279 But it was it was a mean thing to do 366 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:50.599 that town, to have the book come out while the 367 00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:52.319 you know, the wounds were still so raw. 368 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:59.240 Now you were getting all kinds of experience, especially with 369 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.920 this murder and can etiquette with just the most psychopathic 370 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:08.839 and heinous killers. And then you're do the Burn Farm 371 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:13.079 and Sheila Lebar tell us a little bit about working 372 00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:15.880 on the burn Farm long after that. 373 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.759 It's the only book I ever wrote that got me arrested. 374 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.559 We'll get to that. The Burn Farm was by a 375 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:29.880 lady named Sila Lebar, who, as a young woman, had 376 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:33.359 a near death experience. She was in a car accident 377 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:35.440 and was in a calma for a while and woke 378 00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:39.960 up convinced that she had gone to heaven and God 379 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.680 had told her that he wasn't ready for her yet 380 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.319 she had a mission right and she was to return 381 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:49.400 to earth and kill all of the pedophiles. And she 382 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:52.519 said that she had been abused as a child at 383 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:57.839 her sister, and which I believe to be true. And 384 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:03.839 Shila developed a psychosis, and she was sort of a 385 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:12.400 nymphomaniacal dominatrix. And she recruited men with mental disabilities to 386 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:16.279 work on her farm. She was recently widowed. Her husband 387 00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:19.599 had died under suspicious circumstances for which there was never 388 00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:22.519 any charges. But she was recently widowed, and she brought 389 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.039 these men in and she would start a sexual relation 390 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:28.119 with relationship with them, then it would become more and 391 00:25:28.119 --> 00:25:37.119 more abusive, and unlike I guess your ritualize s and M, 392 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:40.960 there were no safe words. She tortured these guys until 393 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:43.599 they admitted that they were pedophiles, even though they probably 394 00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:47.200 didn't know what pedophile meant, and then she would kill them, 395 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:50.160 chop them up, and throw them into the bonfire in 396 00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:54.799 front of her house, thus making it the burn farm. Now, 397 00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:56.799 when I went up to it took place in Epping, 398 00:25:56.839 --> 00:25:58.960 New Hampshire, and she lived in a dirt road off 399 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:02.839 of a dirt road, and there was a lady who 400 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:05.839 lived down the road who wanted to write a book 401 00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:09.039