WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.680 You're listening to an airwave media podcast. 2 00:00:04.599 --> 00:00:06.240 Let's go back to nineteen ninety six. 3 00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:08.800 The X files were fresh and popular. 4 00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:12.199 The nightly am airwaves were ruled from the desert compound 5 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:15.160 of art Bell and in the Tropics, a new menace 6 00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:20.199 troubled ranchers, a bloodsucking animal known as el chupacabra. Before 7 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:23.760 it became the go to explanation for every mysterious animal corpse, 8 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:27.640 the chupacabra was a serious threat for poor hardscrabble ranchers 9 00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:28.600 who feared this. 10 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:31.039 Bloodsucking monster and what it could do to their livestock. 11 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:34.960 Fifteen years have gone by, and the chupacabra has become 12 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:36.320 a punchline for many people. 13 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:38.640 Hairless dogs are hardly the stuff of. 14 00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:43.240 Nightmare, but Ben Radford remembers the original claims the strange 15 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:47.719 hairless humanoid creature which seemed to have amazing powers of leaping, flying, 16 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:50.880 and more. Inspired to get to the bottom of it, 17 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:52.960 Ben worked for five years to find out what was 18 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:55.359 behind the story, and now his findings are available in 19 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:57.960 his newest book, Tracking the Chupacabra. 20 00:00:58.479 --> 00:00:59.520 Today aln Monster Talk. 21 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:07.239 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. A 22 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:12.719 giant hairy creature mark Ape Park mat in Luckness, a 23 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:15.480 twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands 24 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:16.040 of Scotland. 25 00:01:16.359 --> 00:01:41.840 It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monstertal. 26 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:46.239 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 27 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.480 Blake Smith and together we've been Radford and doctor karn Stolesno, 28 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:51.680 we look at the science behind monster stories. 29 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:53.400 This week it's just been in me. 30 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:55.719 Karen is out sick, but hopefully we'll be back in 31 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:57.599 the podcasting saddle very soon. 32 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:00.159 Our interview today is with Ben Radford. 33 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:01.760 Or get their co host on our show and the 34 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:05.120 author of several books on monsters topics. Today we're discussing 35 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:08.560 his latest tracking The Chuop of Cabra. You can get 36 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:10.800 a copy of his book at Redford Books dot com 37 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:13.360 or check the show notes at monster talk dot org. 38 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:18.560 Monster Welcome to Monster Talk Today. We're going to be 39 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:23.560 talking to author and Monster Talk co host Benjamin Radford 40 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:25.199 about his new book. 41 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:26.960 What's your new book called? 42 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:31.000 Ben is Tracking the Chupacabre the Vampire Beast in fact, 43 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:32.280 fiction and folklore. 44 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:33.719 Awesome. 45 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:38.360 Yeah, I spent a lot of time working on it. 46 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:41.840 So you have you have I since you shared some 47 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:46.400 of your research with myself and Karen and Daniel Loxton 48 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:48.199 as you were working on it, it was kind of 49 00:02:48.199 --> 00:02:49.919 fun to see it all come together and now you've 50 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:50.479 got your book. 51 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:52.280 So I'm proud of you. 52 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:54.960 Good job, Thank you, thank you. I appreciate that. It's 53 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:58.120 it's as you know, in in skepticism, a lot of 54 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:03.039 times the thing hues are not forthcoming. Usually just get 55 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:05.199 the barbers from the believers who are pissed off at you. 56 00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:07.199 So it's it's nice to get a couple of pets 57 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:09.280 in the back, especially for skeptical words. 58 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:11.599 Thanks well, you know, as a writer, it's also good 59 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:13.960 to see somebody finish something they started, so that's always. 60 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:18.599 Like exactly, it's easy enough to start. I mean I've 61 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:22.080 I've started, you know, dozens of articles and books and 62 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:25.520 finishing it. That's the rub, as they say it is. 63 00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:28.680 So, how did you pick the chup Ofcabre as a topic. 64 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:34.680 That's a great question. I think that I think that 65 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:36.919 I was intrigued by it for a number of reasons. 66 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:39.120 The first one was that it seemed to be a 67 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.000 relatively recent monster. Of course, as you know, with the 68 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:48.080 case of the Lockness Monster, the sightings themselves on the 69 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:50.240 date back to about the nineteen thirties, but they're the 70 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.960 supposed mythologies behind it date back much earlier, depending on 71 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:57.639 who you talk to. The same with Bigfoot, you know, 72 00:03:57.680 --> 00:03:59.759 that's really only been around since about the fifties, but 73 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:03.280 they sort of wrote into wild man stories and you know, 74 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:06.080 Native American mythologies and stuff. But in the case of 75 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:09.080 the Cubicabra, that didn't really exist. It would just sort 76 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:12.599 of suddenly just popped essentially out of nowhere in the 77 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:15.240 mid nineteen nineties, and so I was intrigued by that 78 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:19.600 because of course, real animals don't just appear out of nowhere, 79 00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:22.759 you know, you don't just a you know, an unknown 80 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:26.399 dragon like creature suddenly appeared over you know, Boston's you know, 81 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:30.399 stadium or something. So that was one of the things 82 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:32.920 that really intrigued me. And then also, of course the 83 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:37.399 fact that it was a vampire was interesting to me, 84 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:39.720 and so there were and also the fact that I 85 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:44.439 speak Spanish and I've traveled extensively throughout Latin America. So 86 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:47.279 it was kind of a confluence of many different factors 87 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:51.480 that led me into the mysterious realm of the cubicabra. 88 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:54.360 In your words, vampire is anything that drinks blood. Is 89 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:54.720 that right? 90 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:58.319 Yeah, yeah, I'll go with that. Basically, anything that's either 91 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.639 repeaters drink blood or or a dozen factory blood. 92 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:03.199 What does it look like? What does the chop of 93 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:06.519 copper look like? The original version. We'll talk about the 94 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:08.120 fact that there's more than one form of it. 95 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:13.399 But well, the original version of the chipicabra, and I 96 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.560 can get into the original witness a little bit later on, 97 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:20.000 but the original one was a bipedal sort of manlike 98 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:25.240 creature between three and five feet tall, with had large 99 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:27.279 red or black alien like eyes, sort of like the 100 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.399 alien wrap round eyes you often see depicted on the 101 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:36.720 on the on the grays, for example, had a distincts. 102 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:37.560 That the gray aliens for the gray aliens. 103 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:41.879 Yes, it had a very distinctive row of spikes down 104 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:44.519 the back that were described as either sort of feathers 105 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:49.160 or spikes or or feathery spikes, had long claws, long fingers, 106 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:54.720 some some people said had wings. But basically that's the 107 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:57.120 original one, and then there were sort of spin offs 108 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:59.759 of that. So when you look at that, that's what 109 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:06.199 the original eyewitness account and then within about well within 110 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:09.959 a few months actually, other people started reporting sort of 111 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:12.040 variations on that theme. And I can talk a little 112 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:12.959 bit that if you want. 113 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:16.560 One version of it is humanoid, yes, and what's the 114 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:18.600 other version, Well. 115 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:21.439 The other version is canid, you know, for what the 116 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:26.759 dog like animals can include everything from dogs, foxes, coyotes 117 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:30.399 and things like that. And these are they basically just 118 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:37.160 look like essentially hairless, probably mangy dogs or coyotes. They're 119 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:42.319 four legged, they have a prominent canine teeth, and that's 120 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:46.000 that's the other version. And it's interesting you sort of 121 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.680 you can actually create a timeline on this because the 122 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:53.560 original troop of cabra was mostly seen the one I 123 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.519 reproduced Describers is mostly seen round between about nineteen ninety 124 00:06:56.519 --> 00:07:01.800 five and say two thousand, almost exclusively in Latin America 125 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:05.879 in a couple other places. And then the type to chipcabra, 126 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:09.720 the s what I've called the Texas cubicabra, appeared in 127 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:12.199 about two thousand and four to the present. So there 128 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:15.839 was this there was this interesting sort of timeline where 129 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:21.279 the cupicabra definitely morphed forms and you know, essentially changed 130 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:23.959 changed what it was and what people were contributing. 131 00:07:24.199 --> 00:07:25.759 Well, let's talk about that a little bit. 132 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:28.800 It sort of just popped out of nowhere in nineteen 133 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:33.160 ninety five. Did it come with an origin story or 134 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:36.160 did it just come with the sighting and the origin 135 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:38.439 stories came later, or how did that work out? 136 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:41.560 That's actually one of the most fascinating parts about it. 137 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.600 When I was researching the book, I went to Puerto 138 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:46.920 Rico and I interviewed several people there and did of 139 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:51.120 course a lot of research on it. And what's interesting 140 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:54.879 you have to look at the social and cultural context 141 00:07:56.199 --> 00:08:01.279 in which these settings emerged. What happened was that by 142 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:06.720 say in the early nineteen ninety five, there had been 143 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:12.399 reports of mysteriously there have been reports of things that 144 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:14.839 the animals that were said to have been mystruously drained 145 00:08:14.839 --> 00:08:18.639 of blood in different parts around the island of Puerto Rico. 146 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:23.399 And it hadn't really sort of turned into like a fever, 147 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:26.920 pitch fear hysteria, but there there was there were rumors 148 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:30.720 and gossip of you know, some sort of unknown vampire 149 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:33.000 creature that you know that would be it would have 150 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:35.000 attacked some goats in one part of the island, or 151 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:42.519 some chickens here or there and UH and the the tabloids. 152 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:45.440 In fact, there were two main tabloids in Puerto Rico, 153 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:49.240 Elvetcetera and Elodia, and both of those were sort of 154 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:52.240 like the equivalent of the National Inquirer UH. And they 155 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:55.480 loved these stories. As you can imagine. Every time that 156 00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:58.360 you know, some farmer in some remote place said that 157 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.080 he had, you know, dead chickens or goats, they dispatched 158 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:04.039 the reporter and they got, you know, very gory, gruesome, 159 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:07.360 dramatic photos of you know, of these these dead animals 160 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:10.039 laying there and the farmer talking about how mysterious it was. 161 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:12.840 So a lot of this was actually fueled by by 162 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:18.759 tabloids and sensational oppress at the time. But nobody had 163 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:23.120 really seen the creature. There had been essentially up until 164 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:27.720 August or so of ninety five. There it was all 165 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:30.559 just sort of rumors and gossip and sort of some 166 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.120 sort of vague thing that may or not have been 167 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:37.519 attacking things. But it wasn't until August that there was 168 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:42.360 actually a face and a whole description of the creature. 169 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:45.480 And that's that's sort of where the original one came from. 170 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:46.600 Who gave it that face? 171 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:50.519 That was a woman named Madeline Tolantino. Hers was the 172 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:54.559 original description of the chepicabra that became world famous. In fact, 173 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:57.480 if you if you do a Google image search for chepicabra, 174 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:00.200 you'll find a lot of it different images, but there's 175 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:04.519 one primary image that sort of has again this alien 176 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:08.840 like creature has spikes down the back, big, has large eyes, 177 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:15.320 sort of fangs, almost no nose, and bipedal things like that, 178 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:21.759 And that was her original description. And interestingly enough, the 179 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:29.200 original Chupacapa reports, including Miss Tolentinos, was originally investigated and 180 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:32.080 I'm using I'm using scare quotes, I'm using air quotes 181 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:36.399 around investigated by UFO buffs in Puerto Rico at the time, 182 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:42.639 and almost almost all of the original reports investigations such 183 00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:47.799 as they were, were by UFO believers and tabloid reporters, 184 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:53.000 So there was little or no real scientific skeptical investigation done, 185 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:56.480 certainly in the nineteen nineties, and I would argue up 186 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:01.559 until essentially by the time I wrote the book. But 187 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:03.840 that's that's one of interesting elements to it. 188 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:08.639 Yeah, so I know there's sort of a folklore aspect 189 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:14.919 to the chupacabra. I've I've read accounts that it was 190 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:19.639 an alien, It was an alien's pet, It was a 191 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:24.399 hybrid creature created at a secret genetics lab underneath the 192 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:26.360 observatory down there. 193 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:30.159 Yeah and uh so. 194 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:33.799 So yeah again this is this is another fascinating aspect 195 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:36.120 to it is why are all of the all these 196 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.000 origin stories. There's I can, I can. I'll give you 197 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.399 the top say three or four. One of the most 198 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.000 popular ones is exactly you said that it was an 199 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:50.679 aliens pet, that there's a connection to extraterrestrials and UFOs 200 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:54.480 and and aliens had been visiting the island of Puerto 201 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:57.679 Rico and elsewhere, of course, and they, I guess sort 202 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:01.440 of opened the door and just there ran out into 203 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:06.320 the wilderness, and they called for it and never came back. 204 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:09.840 And so since that time it's been living in the 205 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:13.360 El Junk Forest. So that's one story, is that it's 206 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:19.759 it's an extraterrestrial origin. Another another. The other main explanation 207 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:22.120 for it is that it's the it's the results of 208 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:28.759 top secret US government's genetics experiments, especially particularly in the 209 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:32.679 in the El Junke rainforest, which is not too far 210 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:36.879 from the capital of San Juan. And uh and so 211 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:40.799 for for for many people el Junke this this sort 212 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:44.279 of jungle like again rainforest area was thought to be 213 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:46.440 either the origin or the and or the home of 214 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.360 the chupicaba for many people. Other people believe that the 215 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:54.799 chupicabra was the source of the AIDS epidemic, that AIDS 216 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.679 was created by the chupicabra or by extraterrestrials through the 217 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.240 chupacabra that were going to try and depopulate the earth 218 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:06.600 a machine. But remarkable, isn't it. 219 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:08.639 There's not a lot of chronology. 220 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:10.519 Yeah, the chronology. 221 00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:10.799 Uh. 222 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:16.879 Other people, for example, believe that the chepicabra was was 223 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:20.720 importent of Armageddon. I did some research for the book 224 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.000 and I was kind of came across a couple fundamentalist 225 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:28.639 Christians who have written that the Chupacabra is referred to 226 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:34.080 in in the Battle of in descriptions of Armageddon for example. 227 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:38.120 So you've got you've got this sort of interesting End 228 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:43.240 Times theology. Uh. There's a guy named James Lloyd who's 229 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.360 the founder of the Christian Media Network Ministry, and he 230 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:52.279 talks about how Revelations nine he claims described the Chupacabra, 231 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:55.159 and he says that the chupacabra is in fact, a 232 00:13:55.519 --> 00:14:00.840 militarized weapon created by the by the US government that's 233 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.559 you know, going to be unleashed on on evil doers 234 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:04.039 or something. 235 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:10.519 To me, having done several interviews on the topic of 236 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:17.360 genetics and genetic manipulation here on Monster Talk, how different 237 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:21.000 real genetic research is from the sort of fantasy version 238 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:24.840 that the conspiracy minded public comes up with. You know, 239 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:28.879 in in the fantasy world, anybody can just build anything 240 00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:31.679 in in you know, remote labs. 241 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:32.240 Uh. 242 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:35.919 Yeah, And it's like they have it's not just a 243 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:39.759 funding issue. It's the it's the fact that they bring 244 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:42.799 these things to life and then let them go, you know. 245 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:47.080 I don't know, it's just a little odd well. 246 00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:49.759 You know, so there's these these stories about the tupe. 247 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:50.960 Of copper, the humanoid version. 248 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:54.799 Does the the the when the type two candide to 249 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:57.000 put a copper comes under the scene, does it does 250 00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:00.200 it get into origin story or I don't want Is 251 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:04.679 there any folkloric explanation for why they're calling these chuopocabras. 252 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:10.200 That's another good question. I think that uh, you don't 253 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:12.679 really find as much of the origin stories behind that 254 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:17.000 version of choopicabra. Partly because in the other the other 255 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:19.159 distinction you have to understand between the sort of type 256 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:22.440 one and type two chep ofcabras is is nobody has 257 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:27.200 ever found a type one chepicabra basically again the the 258 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:30.120 humanoid or reptilian or kangaroo with wings or I mean, 259 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:33.440 there's a wide variety of descriptions to it. These have 260 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:36.600 only been cited and reported, uh that there have been 261 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.720 photographed or anything else like that. The type two type 262 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:42.159 the typetoo chip of cabras what I would call that, 263 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:45.720 the Texas cheop oficabras. Uh. In these cases we have 264 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:48.720 a dead body that this is, you know, we we 265 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.440 actually have a physical specimen. And again that this this 266 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:56.519 also distinguishes it from for example, a bigfoot lockness monster, 267 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:02.559 a mothman, dragon's unicorns, you know, mermaids, except for the 268 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:06.279 Fiji mermaid and other things like that, uh, in which 269 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:09.639 these are you know, we have no hard physical forensic evidence. 270 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:12.799 In the case of the cup of gabra, allegedly we do. 271 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:16.039 We've got you know, half a dozen or so uh 272 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:20.480 dead cupicabres that can be examined and tested. So I 273 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:24.440 think that partly because uh there is uh, there is 274 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:27.919 you know, the the the hard you know, hard physical body. 275 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:28.519 Uh. 276 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:30.840 That sort of detracts, I think from from the folklore 277 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:31.320 behind it. 278 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:33.039 Well, do you want to talk about some of these 279 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:35.000 cases where they found these bodies? 280 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:36.080 Sure? 281 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:39.000 Sure, I mean there's there's been about again, about a 282 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:44.320 half dozen or so. The the original, uh, not the 283 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:46.600 best known, but the original I think, as far as 284 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:50.279 I know, the first Chupicaba report in terms of again 285 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:55.080 the type two Chupicabo, the canon type came from August 286 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:58.879 two thousands in the in the village of Mafassio, Nicaragua. 287 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:03.320 There was a a farmer named Jorge Talavera who it's 288 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:04.839 kind of a long story and I won't get into 289 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:07.839 the details here you can read in the book, but 290 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:14.359 basically he claimed that some animal was attacking his, his, his, his, 291 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:18.519 his livestock and goats, and he finally got tired of 292 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:20.079 it and he said, I'm gonna I'm going to catch 293 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:22.319 this damp thing. And so he and a ranch hand 294 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.759 camped out overnight and they sort of waited and waited 295 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.359 in the cold darkness, and finally they saw one or 296 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.240 two The descriptions very's not sure if there's one or two, 297 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:40.000 but one or two sort of four legged monsters. Basically 298 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:43.440 that he interpreted the chubukabra that we're attacking his his animals. 299 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:46.519 He shot at them, he hit one of them, h 300 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:49.000 and then it sort of ran off from the darkness. 301 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:53.920 A couple of days later, his ranch hand was was 302 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:57.039 walking around a remote part of his ranch and he 303 00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:01.039 came across some vultures feeding on a carcass and it 304 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:02.839 was basically reduced to a skeleton. I mean there was 305 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:05.559 a little bit of meat behind it, but essentially a skeleton. 306 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:09.640 And uh, he said, well, this this, this must be 307 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:13.720 the chepicabra. And the story then made national news, international news. 308 00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:17.559 In fact, reporters were calling from you know, Japan, Italy, 309 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.440 you know, you know, and you know New York wanting 310 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:22.880 to find out, you know, had we found the chepicaba 311 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:25.200 because again this was this was the very first time 312 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:30.400 somebody had claimed to find an actual body of the chepicabrum. Again, 313 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.559 it's it's kind of a long involved story of but basically, uh, 314 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:38.279 he had he asked the local university to examine the remains, 315 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:43.880 and uh, they came back a dog that it was not, 316 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:47.000 in fact an unknown creature. It wasn't a vampire. It 317 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:51.079 was as an ordinary dog. And he later disputed this 318 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:53.559 account and claimed that there was a conspiracy behind it, 319 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:57.000 that they had actually switched the they had actually switched 320 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:02.240 the bones. But that was that was the first found body. 321 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:08.640 Probably the best known is the Quero chupicabra and in Quero, Texas, 322 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.880 found by a woman named Phillis Canyon, and I investigated 323 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:16.319 that in part along with the TV show Monster Quest 324 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:20.519 in two thousand and eight. And that was where this 325 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:27.279 woman and this woman found a dead type two chupicabra, 326 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:31.880 you know, four legs, hairless or nearly hairless, uh, near 327 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:37.759 her ranch, and she, you know, she went into it 328 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.440 and the examined it, and she ended up having some 329 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.599 DNA tests run on it by Todd Stel among others, 330 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:51.640 I believe, and that came back coyote uh. And as 331 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:55.160 with mister Talavera, Phillis Canyon was not happy with this. 332 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:59.319 With this, this DNA results in dispute of them. She 333 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:01.799 asked for a second instead of tests, which we're done, 334 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:05.839 and it came back essentially the same, but with the 335 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:08.640 added caveat that there may be some some wolf in it, 336 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:12.000 some red wolf. Again. In all these different cases you have, 337 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:17.359 you know, somebody finds a dead weird thing basically, and 338 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:20.119 if there's a body there, then then someone says, oh, 339 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:22.240 I wonder what this weird thing is. And then oftentimes 340 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:24.240 they'll they'll go to the Internet and they'll do a 341 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:27.680 Google search for weird you know, weird monster in Texas 342 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:30.400 and the chubicabo pop up, and they'll say, well, there 343 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:34.599 it is, and that's it must be the chepicabra. Or 344 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:39.720 other times, oftentimes, particularly in Texas, ranch hands Spanish speaking 345 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:44.440 ranch hands often will will we'll call the chupacabra because again, 346 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:48.680 so the chubicapra. Originally, of course, the chubicapra means goat 347 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:50.960 sucker in Spanish, because it's supposed to suck the boat 348 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:53.960 the blood out of goats and also livestock and cats 349 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:57.400 and chickens and other things. But over the last say, 350 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:00.599 ten or fifteen years, the word chup ofcabra has basically 351 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:04.799 come to mean anything weird, any unusual creature, or anything 352 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.480 else that somebody has found that may or matt have 353 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:11.200 any actual relevance to bloodsucking or vampism or anything else 354 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:13.799 like that. So again there's other ones there's the Blanco, 355 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.359 Texas too, Picabo Elmendorf. There were a couple found here 356 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:21.240 in New Mexico and elsewhere. But those are those are 357 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:22.759 a couple of the highlights. 358 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:25.200 Unlike Bigfoot or Nassi are actually most of the monsters 359 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:28.440 we talked about. This is a vampire creature in its 360 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:32.279 original form. Where does that come from? Where does the 361 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:36.039 bloodsucking come from? Well, the blood suck because it sounds 362 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.480 like it actually predated the actual sightings. 363 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:43.720 Yeah, that's again another fascinating aspect to it. What you 364 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:47.799 have to remember is that is that with the original reports, 365 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:50.680 when you're looking at the original reports from for example, 366 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:57.240 early nineteen ninety five Puerto Rico, the people weren't calling 367 00:21:57.319 --> 00:21:59.799 it the chupacabra at that time. It was just something 368 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:03.079 is attacking livestock and we it appears to be drained 369 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:04.960 of blood, and we think it's weird and whatever else. 370 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:09.000 And it wasn't really until until around August or so. 371 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.519 That again, in August was when the first person actually 372 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:15.720 saw the creature. At that point, everyone's like, oh my god, 373 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:17.839 this is what people have been this is what people 374 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:20.640 have been have been seeing and reporting it, and you know, 375 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:24.920 this is what's attacking the animals. Tolentino herself didn't, as 376 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:27.119 far as I know, didn't actually call it the chupicabra. 377 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:29.359 She didn't come up with that name. I think she 378 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:32.640 just said I saw something weird, and other people, you know, 379 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:36.839 put the chupacava label onto that. So again, there was 380 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:41.039 definitely a vampire aspect to it that was essentially its 381 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:45.079 signature form of predation. I mean, that's that's what that is, 382 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.359 and that's that's what the chupacabra does. It sucks. It 383 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:52.039 sucks goat's blood. In my book, I I I put 384 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:54.759 it within the context of other vampires around the world. 385 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.759 And so for example, I looked at h at the 386 00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:01.839 European vampire and the stories of the story. I looked 387 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:04.680 at the European vampire and the stories of the creatures 388 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:08.359 that were said to drained blood or other bodily substances 389 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:12.759 from the living the oftentimes blame for bad things happening. 390 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.119 Uh And I also looked into, for example, African vampires 391 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:22.319 uh and, and some of the stories of vampiic entities 392 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:27.359 and creatures and sometimes people, oftentimes white people. There's a 393 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:31.359 strong element of xenophobiaan fear of foreigners in vampire stories 394 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:35.359 in general and specifically in the Chepicabra as well, and 395 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.599 also go into other Latin American vampires such as the 396 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:43.759 Leikichiri creature, which I investigated in Bolivia in Peru, which 397 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:48.359 which sucks the fat out of people. So there's there's 398 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.000 a there's a whole. So that Chubicata really fits very 399 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:54.839 well within the context of other vampire claims, and so 400 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.079 that's why I spend chapter two in the book. 401 00:23:57.839 --> 00:23:58.359