WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:09.480 Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Elixir Mix, 2 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:13.519 again this week without Charles so I'm such a wolf. 3 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:16.280 And this week on the panel we have Adie Ainger 4 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:21.079 and Alan Weymore. Hello, I hope I pronounced about the 5 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:24.679 name's bob right. This week we actually gonna pick a 6 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:27.160 topic from Twitter. Like, so a while ago, I asked 7 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:29.839 on Twitter what's something people would be interested in and 8 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:34.159 to hear about in Alix Mix, and Kevin Stingen basically 9 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:37.719 asked us to talk about Elixir is a general purpose 10 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:41.240 language for aka, how to convince people that alix heir 11 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:43.920 is not this niche thing you only reach for when 12 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:47.000 you have like these super specific concurrency issues, but that 13 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:50.039 it's actually something you can use it the same way 14 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:53.320 like for people reach for rails for example, and then 15 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:57.119 you can go from there. And just before we started recording, 16 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:01.640 we considered talking about this, and then we also thought, okay, 17 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:05.120 let's look at like Phoenix for example, because Phoenix is 18 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:08.760 something you can get productive with quite easily, and I'd 19 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:10.920 like to hear like your thoughts on that. Adia, Like 20 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:13.519 when you started with Felix, You're like, how was the 21 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:15.920 story there? If you like jump into Phoenix for example, 22 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:17.599 right away, And how did it feel for you? 23 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:22.239 Yeah, yeah, Alexa For me, actually it's my first professional 24 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:26.079 like coding job was an Elixir luckily. And yeah, I 25 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:29.480 think that like kind of statement should be enough in 26 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:32.400 terms of how general purpose, how easily accessible it is. 27 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:35.920 I didn't hadn't really have to touch the OTP, the 28 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:38.480 gen server pod or any any kind of a TV 29 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:42.359 stuff for like a while. I did start with plugs 30 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:44.439 at that time. Phoenix was like still I think I 31 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.079 don't know if one point it was out at that time, 32 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:49.560 but my first Elixir app was like just a plug 33 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:54.200 based back end API and again just how plug looks 34 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:57.840 pretty straightforward to right use. And they right away had 35 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.439 support for Cowboy as well, so was again pretty easy 36 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.760 to follow along with the documentation and just get us. 37 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:07.799 We're up and running within a couple hours. So yeah, 38 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:09.840 I had a very pleasant experience for the Elixir. 39 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:12.199 And so you said that you didn't have a lot 40 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.599 of things to do with OTP at that point in time, Like, 41 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:18.199 was that like anything specific in that first app you 42 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:20.840 learned Elixir with, like where you then at some point 43 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:23.520 reached for OTP, And is it like a story there 44 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:25.000 to be told or rather than. 45 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:28.479 There is definitely a story there. The app was actually 46 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:34.879 replacing a small functionality of a huge rails app, and 47 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:38.120 that small functionality was something that the CTO of my 48 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:41.240 company at that time envisioned to you know, kind of 49 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:44.719 be more scalable, and it was an experiment for us 50 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:49.039 to try writing that in Elixir, and initially we didn't 51 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:51.639 do any OTP, but the first thing that we did 52 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:55.199 was just adding tasks to that, and then this experiment 53 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:58.159 pool boy and everything. But it matured to a point 54 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:01.639 where we had investigated infrastructure. We had it in a 55 00:03:01.719 --> 00:03:04.919 place where you know, we didn't. They not only had 56 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:09.039 a great amount of concurrency with different workers doing different things, 57 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:13.000 but we had we also were spinning in temporary infrastructure 58 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:16.599 like a super server in Google Cloud where I think 59 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:18.400 I think it was like what one hundred and twenty 60 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:21.759 eight gigs of RAM temporarily to process a huge again 61 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:24.199 without giving a lot of business information, a huge chunk 62 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:27.120 of data. And yeah, it became a pretty crazy app 63 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:31.439 by twenty nineteen. But yeah, the first iteration of that 64 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:36.439 untwenty fifteen was just a simple plug resserver lo concurrency nothing, well, 65 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:39.240 each request was concurrent, but yeah, besides that there was 66 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:40.919 no OTP whatsoever. 67 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:44.360 Yeah, that's pretty similar to to my personal experience. Like 68 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:47.560 I mean I didn't start from plug, but I jumped 69 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:50.360 right into Phoenix when I when I first used flixir 70 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:54.319 at my previous employer, where also like a first contact 71 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:57.000 with Filixir, right, and there were also like beginning just 72 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:00.199 had like this Phoenix app and if you have any 73 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:02.759 point written some kind of back end code like be 74 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.319 create rails, be it like PHP larravel. A lot of 75 00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:10.080 things feel very familiar. So you you all this OTP 76 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:12.360 stuff at that point feel it's a lot like magic, 77 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:15.240 and but you don't have to use it, like to 78 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:18.279 just write an endpoint and to just get i don't know, 79 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:21.399 like a response back to the user. So I feel 80 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:23.279 like there's a lot of a lot to be said 81 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:26.959 about the ease of onboarding there and like not having 82 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:31.759 to to jump the gun on all the maybe more 83 00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:36.600 uncommon and maybe more weird outip things the Beam offers, 84 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:40.480 which is super powerful but can be quite confusing for newcomers. Right, definitely, 85 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:42.160 Like Alan, do you do you have like any any 86 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:45.439 story you'd like to share about how your first contact 87 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:47.680 possophilis here? And like what you did with it. 88 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:49.519 That's a good question. I'm trying to think of what 89 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:53.120 my first interaction was. I think I may share the 90 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:55.079 same interactions most people were. You kind of keen and 91 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.920 from the Phoenix side in that, like you didn't get 92 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.279 too much exposure to OTP when you're using Phoenix, because 93 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:01.959 a lot of stuff is kind of abstracted from you. 94 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:04.279 Like even I'm thinking about like when I'm first looking 95 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:06.920 at the application ex file that gets created and it's 96 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:08.759 not super clear like what's going on. You just have 97 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:10.480 a bunch of stuff we see that gets started up, 98 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:12.639 but you don't really understand exactly what's going on. You 99 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:14.560 don't really see like the endpoint all these kind of 100 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.040 things and coming from rails, like I think most people 101 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:19.360 did that. I didn't really think too much about a 102 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:22.879 lot of things. I just kind of try to keep things, yeah, 103 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:25.720 just just in line. I mean when I started speaking, 104 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:27.360 that was way back we had like the web folder 105 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:29.759 that was outside of the lib folder. If you remember that, 106 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:36.920 that was a long time ago, that was I think, yeah, yeah, 107 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:38.439 so I think I came in about one point two 108 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:40.600 or something, and yeah, so it was a it was 109 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:41.480 a different time back then. 110 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:42.680 Also, you had like, what was it? 111 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:44.680 It was weird, like you didn't have a schema, right, 112 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:47.560 you had something else like a model models. 113 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:51.160 Yeah, it was actually models. It wasn't controls and templates. 114 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:51.439 I guess. 115 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:54.160 Yeah. So, and I remember like a lot of one 116 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:56.160 of the things that a lot of people in the 117 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:59.839 Alica community who did not come from RAILS community didn't like, 118 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:03.879 was said, why are we calling the schema's models? So 119 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:06.639 then we then I saw Phoenix moving away from that. 120 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:08.720 I think one point three that that's what introduced the 121 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:12.920 bounded contexts, right, the context modules that don't know well. 122 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:15.079 I mean the part is that actually made it more 123 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:17.480 approachable for me at least because I did understand NBC 124 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:20.120 and they were really pushing MBC at that time, I think, 125 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:24.160 like with the different folders, so that that was much 126 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:26.079 easier for me. And so I didn't really get too 127 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:29.000 into OTP for some time. I had to spend time 128 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:31.040 outside and just kind of look into it. I kept 129 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:32.680 hearing about TP, and then I just had to go 130 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:36.120 through like Sasha Sasha's book, a Little OTP book. These 131 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:38.680 two books for sure were definitely my early intros to it, 132 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:40.600 and then I could started to seeing it there's definitely 133 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:43.920 some powers over here. Also, Dave Dave's book from prag 134 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:46.240 Prog was also really good too, Like the fact that 135 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:49.319 I could spin off a bunch of like asynchronous processes. 136 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:53.360 Thought that was super powerful, like these things, so like 137 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:55.519 it took some time for me to really get into, 138 00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:57.879 you know, what I wanted to do. And after spending 139 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:00.160 quite a bit of time like getting into it, then 140 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:02.399 I started actually adding it to projects for things like 141 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:04.720 I had to process webbooks and you had to return 142 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:06.800 a sponsor this response with a certain amount of time. 143 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:10.199 So initially that was actually synchronous, and they started taking 144 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:12.800 longer and longer, and then finally we said, okay, let's 145 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:15.439 try to spin off this as a process and let's 146 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.279 just return immediately. And that definitely was amazing. It was crazy, 147 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:21.480 like because we went from like a couple of seconds 148 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.920 to like now like was it like seventy two? Like 149 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:28.160 that U symbol was that microseconds? 150 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:30.399 So that was microseconds? 151 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:33.759 Yeah, yeah, that was super powerful. And then like we 152 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:35.680 had this third party, so we got a WebBook. Then 153 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:38.800 we had to ask them, like what happened? So we're 154 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.600 working with Strava. Strava would send us a webook saying, hey, 155 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:44.720 this user has an activity, and then we would reply back, hey, 156 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:47.480 tell me more about the activity, and Strava would actually 157 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:50.879 fall apart. It would just like die whenever we asked them. 158 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:53.160 And so that actually brought us into another stage of 159 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:56.000 OTP where if it failed, let it, we let it crash, 160 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:58.000 then we just retry it. And we actually built in 161 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.680 like a retrit mechanism too. So it was also super 162 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.040 helpful because they were experiencing a lot of growth issues 163 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:06.319 at the time, so it's really a gradual process to 164 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:08.519 me that just like adding this layer, adding that layer, 165 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:11.800 So it wasn't very overwhelming, but at the same time, 166 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.360 like because of the approachability of Phoenix, especially at that 167 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:18.560 time to where I was come from, it was really straightforward, 168 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:19.560 I think for the most part. 169 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:23.839 Yeah, I think that's a very common story. Right. You 170 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:26.759 start off with like air quote, just the web app, 171 00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:28.920 and then you at some point say, okay, I would 172 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.120 like some background processing, like this thing over here it 173 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:34.799 takes too long. Let's let's move into the background. And 174 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:36.639 then like if you would be using raids, but you 175 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:39.480 would reach for something like sidekick, but then alix here. 176 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:42.080 Then then then OTP and like obstructions built on top 177 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:44.960 of that just in reach right, and you can then 178 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:48.960 then go very naturally transition into okay, how exactly is 179 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:51.279 this supposed to work? And what can I use here? 180 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:55.440 And what guarantees does this give me and explore basically 181 00:08:55.639 --> 00:08:59.320 what what OTP provides you very very gently from from there. 182 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:01.960 I think the the funny thing now is like, okay, 183 00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:05.000 you would reach for sidekick. There was a sidekick implementation 184 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:08.200 in a lixture and then people said, okay, you don't 185 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:10.039 need that. But now it's funny like we're almost reaching 186 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.240 for another sidekick nowadays, Like the open library not to 187 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:15.879 knock an open orban is fantastic, right, but it's funny 188 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:18.360 that actually now we're back to doing something similar, although 189 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:20.919 now you don't have to actually add in another dependency. 190 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:23.279 You don't have to add in like reddis. You just 191 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:25.559 work off the same database. That's the nice part. But 192 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:27.240 as it's taken like, it's kind of funny, like we're 193 00:09:27.639 --> 00:09:30.360 necessarily almost full circle, right, It's like, okay, you don't 194 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.279 need sidekick, or so you don't need reddis. Okay, you 195 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:36.200 don't need like a background managing tool for background processes. 196 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:38.519 You could just split up a process, use a supervisor, 197 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:41.279 and now it's like, okay, now let's just farm it 198 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:41.919 out to open. 199 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:44.720 So it's kind of like full circle again. Yeah, I 200 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:47.039 think you can a bit of a bit of observe 201 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:49.320 like the development in the community there, because I mean, 202 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:52.159 Open is great if you have persistent jobs right degreat 203 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:55.440 but which should survive a restart of your app. But 204 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:58.480 sometimes that's not something you need. And the beginning, I 205 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:00.720 think a lot of people were like, oh, otp and 206 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:03.159 but that's cool, like what can we do with it? 207 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:06.120 And I mean the other folks will probably say like 208 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:08.840 it's an old app, but for the Elixi community it 209 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:10.879 was like, hey, maybe we don't need all that other 210 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:14.360 stuff we we used in our programming language. Let's try 211 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:17.720 to do it all like in the VM itself. But 212 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.639 now that a bit of time has passed, I guess 213 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:22.360 it makes sense that that you have now a solution 214 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:24.480 like Open, which has okay, like sometimes you really want 215 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:27.639 this persistent qube sometimes you really want these persistent jobs. 216 00:10:27.879 --> 00:10:30.639 And while you might why, there might be solutions to 217 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:33.279 doing that in the side of a VM, it's just 218 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:37.320 quotes simpler to use a database. You're probably already using 219 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.480 I guess it tells a story about like the Elixi 220 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:43.159 community maturing and trying to do a bit of the 221 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:43.840 simplest thing. 222 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:46.840 Yeah, totally, yeah, I do. I really like the fact 223 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:51.799 that oban has become like the standard these days. Whenever 224 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:56.559 I have tried use OTP within the application, I am 225 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:00.200 in distorber state of jobs. It has always it's been 226 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:02.360 hard to manage that, especially with like crashes and stuff. 227 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:06.080 It's a lot easier to think of your data as 228 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:08.679 separate from your app. But I'm not saying it's not possible, 229 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:11.240 and airline is built for that, but it's just easier 230 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:14.360 to manage things, you know, and like it won't conflict 231 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:17.320 with your infrastructure and how you deploy and all that stuff. 232 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:19.720 Right. Yeah, it reminds me. I think it's like in 233 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:22.039 the book of such a Urk there's like this this 234 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:25.480 table about like what what you need for example, to 235 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:28.639 one like a web server and like persistence and so 236 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:31.240 on and so forth, like in like a language like 237 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:34.480 Ruby or Python or whatever, and it's like, okay, you 238 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:36.879 have to be ins like web server will be for example, 239 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:39.039 and the will we land will be like how is 240 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:40.240 it called kuma? 241 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:40.559 Right? 242 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:42.080 And then you have rails for the web app, and 243 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:44.279 then you have read is for like the QUE, and 244 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:46.759 you have postcors for persistence, and then you have engine 245 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:49.080 X for like web routing and so and so, and 246 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:52.679 then there's like this table on the other side. Like, 247 00:11:57.320 --> 00:11:59.200 while it's a bit tang in j there is some 248 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:01.720 truth to that that I think it's interesting to see, 249 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:05.200 like how the community pushes in that direction. And so 250 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:07.279 it makes sense that in the beginning you had a 251 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:10.440 bunch of job ques which we did all inside of 252 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:13.320 the VM because like, hey, this is like a direction 253 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.639 the community tends to push because it reduces complexity. Less 254 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:20.519 dependencies means less complexity. But yeah, like I said before, 255 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.679 sometimes you really want these persistent jobs, and then it's 256 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:27.879 good to have an optimism in a project like Oburn, 257 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:31.080 which I think has been a godsend for a lot 258 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:31.440 of people. 259 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:35.360 For sure. Yeah, I agree, I have Remember, I feel 260 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:37.279 like I don't know if the susproduction or not. I 261 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:42.440 do remember using debts for a more persistent QUE. We 262 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:45.840 were already using the online term storage, and that the 263 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:49.799 disc based online term storage was something I remember exploring. 264 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:52.360 I'm not sure if it was in production for too long. 265 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:55.399 At all because we moved to Oban very quickly after that, 266 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:58.039 but which just made our life a lot simpler. 267 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:02.120 So was that's something like you you home brewed in 268 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:02.960 your company, Like. 269 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:07.120 Yeah, yeah, we already had a job processing thing that 270 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:11.519 was already half baked. We were using a gens will 271 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:14.399 attract that, and then we realized, oh we and as 272 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:17.360 what became more complicated, we needed like more like table 273 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:20.919 like infrastructure, right, and then we switched TOTS and then 274 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.360 we realized, oh, we need this to prosist beyond the 275 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.320 application crashes and whatnot. So then we moved to debts 276 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:28.960 and then I'm like, wait, there's a new thing, call 277 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:32.120 oh man. And I want to say that we did 278 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:34.799 have debts for some time in production, but very little's 279 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:36.919 probably like a month or so. But it wasn't much 280 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:40.159 of an effort to move from already implemented you know 281 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:41.120 ETS two. 282 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:44.360 Yes, like for our listeners to get like ets like 283 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:46.840 this recording term storage. We mentioned it in a few 284 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:49.720 past episodes, but it's basically like an in memory key 285 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:54.360 value table, and debts is basically left the same thing, 286 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:57.759 but that saves the contents on a file on disc. 287 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:02.679 So then you actually can have resistance across restarts of app. 288 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:05.120 Just in case somebody is not familiar with it. We 289 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:07.320 can like blink to the dogs, I guess in the show. 290 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:09.960 Great. The best part about it is that you get 291 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:14.519 to use this amazing query look up language. I'm not 292 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:16.480 sure if you've tried, yes, I. 293 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:20.559 Have, amazing wouldn't have been the adjective I'm using there. 294 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:23.559 I was definitely I was definitely been sarcastic. 295 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:28.120 Yeah, I mean there are some some helpers there, right, 296 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.600 like this fun too an ass which is like fun 297 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.600 to matches back, so they basically pass it like a function. 298 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:38.120 And then it's like somehow automatically powerises these these guards 299 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:40.879 or these pattern matches to specify. Like that's a lot 300 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:46.039 better already. But the match specs interesting. Let's just say 301 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:50.559 that I have written some I've written some simple match 302 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:52.799 specs are okay, but that's as soon as it gets 303 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:57.559 like even remotely complex. It's even worse than regular expressions. 304 00:14:59.000 --> 00:14:59.879 Agree percent. 305 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:03.360 But yeah, it just just to reiterate, I feel like 306 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:06.039 there is a very natural transition to say, okay, I 307 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:08.320 want to start like my web project, right, and I 308 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.480 just use Phoenix and then I write some controllers and 309 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:14.000 then I write some code here and sometimes maybe some 310 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:15.960 active I have a database and I don't have to 311 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:18.919 care about ODP. But as soon as you like want 312 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:21.399 to step out of that that I'm not sure, like 313 00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:24.919 that the safe zone like this the sandbox, then then 314 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.720 OTP is there, like it allows you to like reach 315 00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:35.720 for things beyond this air quotes simple and easy Phoenix stuff. 316 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.120 And I must say, like my personally, my experience has 317 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.840 been very very positive there, because I mean I remember 318 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.200 trying to step out of like this safe zone in 319 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:49.360 other languages, like be they back end or even like 320 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:51.600 front end code, and then I feel like the experience 321 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:55.399 is often that that you bump into like weird walls 322 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:58.480 and weird edges like you didn't expect to bump into 323 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.559 because like then suddenly tried to do things outside of 324 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:05.000 the scope of the framework, right, and then things become 325 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:08.799 very very hard all of a sudden without especially like 326 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:10.720 when you try to like do this for the first 327 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.120 time and they don't really understand why things don't work 328 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:15.679 as you might expect them to. I very much remember, 329 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.840 like my very first web app was actually PHP thing 330 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:21.360 with like Laravel, and then we wanted to send like 331 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:24.480 a push notification and to a bunch of users, and 332 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:26.840 like I was like looking at this, and I was 333 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:28.960 like thinking, okay, I'd like to do that in the background, 334 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.559 right because it might go through like thousands and thousands 335 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:34.279 of devices. And suddenly I was like, looking, Okay, then 336 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.639 you have like they have to start this demon which 337 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:39.399 like handles your bag PHP background process, And I was like, 338 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:44.360 what the fuck? Why is this so hard? And yeah, 339 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:48.120 I feel like at least in that in that context, 340 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:52.279 Elixir gives a very more and more streamlined and a 341 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:57.480 more simple solution to do these these common issues without 342 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:00.679 you having to like really grog or all the things. 343 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:04.680 And one interesting thing I know for myself there was 344 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.519 as soon as like I got like a basic understanding 345 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:10.759 of OTP, I could also very much appreciate about, Okay, 346 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:13.440 how it does phoenix actually work? Right, Like how you 347 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:18.039 have one process per request? Yeah, and like I feel 348 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.559 like all the pieces like snack together. So that's pretty 349 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:25.000 pretty interesting and like something I have not yet experienced 350 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.839 in the same fission in a different technology stack, but 351 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:31.079 maybe like my MIC, maybe something like that will pop 352 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:31.799 up at some time. 353 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:35.319 Yeah, totally, totally, Yeah, it's actually cowboy if I want 354 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:37.160 to say, I think Cowboy itself. 355 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.720 Every public quest is a probably. 356 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:42.200 Its own process, which is I think Veena's just like 357 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.559 piggybacks off of that, which is yeah, pretty awesome. Yeah, 358 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:47.920 I mean, yeah, totally right about again the point you 359 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:50.480 made about before diving into it to be And I 360 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:54.359 mean there's also Alixir as a community has so many 361 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:56.440 cool I mean we're not even gonna we haven't even 362 00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:59.759 touched nerves yet. But like something as simple as like 363 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:03.960 the embedded elixa engine, right that is so powerful, like 364 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.359 it can just power you anything you want to template. 365 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.680 Like here's an example. Right before I did any little 366 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.119 any I met it a very little OTP, but like 367 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:18.839 before I dealt into OTP, I wrote this DevOps like app. 368 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:22.359 It basically sets up a Linix ra Mac with like 369 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:24.799 all the tools I want, you know, I used to 370 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:28.720 him the terminal I want, zoom and whatever. It just 371 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:32.079 and using Alix for stuff like that. It's little looks weird, 372 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:34.359 but it was so easy to do that because of 373 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:38.440 embedded Alixir. Writing shared templates is so easy to do 374 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.960 and it looks with such an accessible language. You have 375 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:45.119 to figure out how to install it first, But once 376 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.000 you install Alexa. Once you got it running in a 377 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:53.039 nice script, it's very powerful because it's interfaces like so idiomatic, right, 378 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.720 Like it's it's so easy to use, like most of 379 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:59.039 the libraries and the language. 380 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.720 Itself, the tooling and the tooling is just superb. 381 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:03.400 Right. 382 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:07.319 I feel like the onboarding experience and Elix here, like 383 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:10.400 even like just going through the guides on the Elixir 384 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:14.559 website drops you off at a point where, at least 385 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.559 for me I might personally where you feel relatively comfortable, 386 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:23.079 like tackling your first Elixir like not not really like 387 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:26.880 diving into like like I like writing like website from scratch, right, 388 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:29.079 but like really okay, I feel like I know enough 389 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:34.400 to be productive to actually build something, And that I 390 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:38.079 think that tells a story where about where ALIXI comes from, right, 391 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:42.000 I mean just look at where what Jose did before Elixir, 392 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:44.440 Like he was very very active in the Ruby community, 393 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:47.079 and Ruby has this mantra and like this reputation and 394 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:51.079 we're very well earned reputation about being approachable and about 395 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:55.200 being easy to pick up and like focusing on developer happiness. 396 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:58.319 And you really see this in elix heir that they 397 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:01.599 did a lot of these the same ideas have evolved 398 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:05.640 to a certain degree, but also went into the design 399 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:08.359 of this language and the design of the tooling and 400 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:12.839 the design of your onboarding experience and while still learning 401 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:16.000