Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
Speaker 1: right where we left off with Kathy Rumler and her
Speaker 1: transcribed interview with Congress. Question mister Emmer, we've had another
Speaker 1: member join. Can he please announce himself for the record,
Speaker 1: mister Walkinshaw, Virginia's eleventh district, Miss Stansbury, New Mexico's first
Speaker 1: congressional district. Question by mister Grant. Miss Rumler, When did
Speaker 1: you first meet Jeffrey Epstein? Answer? I first met him
Speaker 1: in July of twenty fourteen when he called called Latham
Speaker 1: and walkins and asked to speak to me. Question And
Speaker 1: prior to that cold call you had no other interactions
Speaker 1: with him? Answer none? Question no in person meetings? Answer No,
Speaker 1: I had not. I didn't know who he was prior
Speaker 1: to receiving the message that this person named Jeffrey Epstein
Speaker 1: had called and asked for me to return his call
Speaker 1: relating to a potential legal matter. Question and at this
Speaker 1: time were you aware of his previous legal trouble? Answer
Speaker 1: at that time? No. Question. And what was the reason
Speaker 1: for this cold call? Answer what he said? So I
Speaker 1: returned the call what he said was that he was
Speaker 1: working with Bill Gates to put together a large donor
Speaker 1: advised fund that would allow people to pull their resources
Speaker 1: for philanthropy and therefore be you know, sort of potentially
Speaker 1: have a greater impact. This was an idea that he
Speaker 1: told me he'd been working on with mister Gates, and
Speaker 1: that there were a number of legal issues that would
Speaker 1: be involved. There would be tax issues and securities issues,
Speaker 1: and there would be the establishment of the fund. And
Speaker 1: while I didn't have any particular expertise in, you know,
Speaker 1: these particular legal subjects, what he said was, I understand
Speaker 1: that you are, you know, an excellent generalist lawyer, and
Speaker 1: we need someone to quarterback these various legal issues that
Speaker 1: will come into play. Question and are you aware of
Speaker 1: somebody referring him to you? Answer? I didn't know that. No,
Speaker 1: I didn't know why he was reaching out to me.
Speaker 1: Question have you subsequently learned if someone referred him to you? Answer?
Speaker 1: When I met him in the first meeting. So he
Speaker 1: asked me in that first phone call if I would
Speaker 1: meet with him to discuss it further. And in that
Speaker 1: first meeting, to the best of my recollection, he mentioned
Speaker 1: a couple of people who we knew in common question
Speaker 1: and who are those people? Answer Larry Summers, I recall
Speaker 1: him mentioning and Reid Weingarten, who was a prominent criminal
Speaker 1: defense attorney. Question and for the first phone call you mentioned,
Speaker 1: the Cole call I'll refer to it, was anyone else
Speaker 1: present on this call with you? Answer? No question. And
Speaker 1: in this first person meeting with mister Epstein, was there
Speaker 1: anyone else present at the meeting? Answer? Not during the meeting, No,
Speaker 1: missus Tolan. And you said you had started working at
Speaker 1: Latham Watkins in July of twenty fourteen. Is that correct? Rumler? Yeah.
Speaker 1: In fact, when he called the law firm, I hadn't
Speaker 1: actually started working yet. It was in the public that
Speaker 1: I was going, I was leaving the White House and
Speaker 1: I was going to return to Latham Watkins. But I
Speaker 1: actually hadn't formally started yet. And so when he called
Speaker 1: the main receptionist to New York, it was routed to
Speaker 1: somebody else, and then the person said, hey, this person
Speaker 1: has a potential new matter. So it was right before
Speaker 1: I started. But actually I hadn't technically started yet. I
Speaker 1: didn't have an office yet, I didn't have a computer,
Speaker 1: I didn't have a Latham Watkins email. I didn't have
Speaker 1: a phone number yet, Miss Toland, and it was just
Speaker 1: a few days or a couple of weeks or rumler
Speaker 1: it was when when I had the first meeting with him.
Speaker 1: I believe it was the Friday before I started at
Speaker 1: the firm on a Monday. Question by Miss Grant and
Speaker 1: between this cold call in the first meeting that you
Speaker 1: had with mister Epstein in person, what did you know
Speaker 1: about mister Epstein leading into that meeting? Answer? I don't
Speaker 1: remember knowing anything about him. I had never I had
Speaker 1: never heard of him before, and so, you know, walking
Speaker 1: into that meeting, I just don't have any specific recollection
Speaker 1: of knowing much about him at all. I remember the
Speaker 1: first meeting. You know, there was a number of things
Speaker 1: that were striking about that first meeting that I remember
Speaker 1: quite well. Question and what were those things? Answer? He
Speaker 1: So he held you know, his meetings at his townhouse
Speaker 1: that he lived in New York. And it was a
Speaker 1: very large townhouse, extremely large and you know, imposing from
Speaker 1: the street. And I recall that there was you know,
Speaker 1: at the outside of the townhouse. It had two initials.
Speaker 1: It was a bit strange, but a bit unusual to me.
Speaker 1: I hadn't seen that before. People typically have their house numbers,
Speaker 1: but the initials were Jae. And when I went into
Speaker 1: the townhouse, I was asked to go meet him in
Speaker 1: his office. And the office was enormous. It took up
Speaker 1: the entire front, you know, the street front of the mansion.
Speaker 1: And there was this enormous taxi derming tiger on the floor.
Speaker 1: So that was I thought, was something I remember quite well.
Speaker 1: Question and when you arrived for this meeting, did someone
Speaker 1: invite you into the house? Was it mister Epstein or
Speaker 1: someone else? Answer? There there was a buzzer outside, so
Speaker 1: like you know, announcing your arrival, and I believe someone
Speaker 1: opened someone on the staff opened the door for me.
Speaker 1: And then there was a small office on the first
Speaker 1: floor and that was sort of, if you think about it,
Speaker 1: like a secretarial office, and he had an executive assistant
Speaker 1: who sat there. So I believe I sat there waiting
Speaker 1: for the appointment, if you will. And then I was told,
Speaker 1: you know, the meeting would start, and I asked to
Speaker 1: walk up a set of stairs to his office. Question
Speaker 1: do you recall who the secretary was at that time? Answer?
Speaker 1: I believe it was Leslie Groff. Question, what did you
Speaker 1: gets cut off by Rumler. But I certainly came to
Speaker 1: see her, you know, several times when I would have
Speaker 1: meetings at the townhouse. Question that was her office? Was
Speaker 1: my understanding? Question? Understood? And so you mentioned some of
Speaker 1: the impressions you got from the first meeting at Epstein's
Speaker 1: New York home. What were your first impressions of mister
Speaker 1: Epstein from the meeting? Answer? He struck me as extremely arrogant.
Speaker 1: He was a high energy person, you know he was.
Speaker 1: He struck me as eccentric. I don't think I'd ever
Speaker 1: seen anyone's office that size. It was probably three times
Speaker 1: the size. I mean, it was bigger than the Oval office.
Speaker 1: And you know, I thought to myself, who has the
Speaker 1: stuff Tiger like sitting on their office floor? The rest
Speaker 1: of well, I'll let you ask the question question what
Speaker 1: did you You've mentioned that the coal call was about
Speaker 1: setting up this fund with mister Gates. Is that the
Speaker 1: only time or the only thing that you brought up
Speaker 1: during this in person meeting as well? Or were there
Speaker 1: other things discussed? Answer? The meeting was like an interview.
Speaker 1: That's how it felt to me. He was interviewing me
Speaker 1: for a potential role. It was a role that had materialized,
Speaker 1: would have been, you know, a great role for a lawyer,
Speaker 1: and it would have been great. It would have been
Speaker 1: great matter for my law firm, because my law firm,
Speaker 1: you know, it's one of the largest today, but even then,
Speaker 1: one of the largest law firms in the world, and
Speaker 1: so you have lots of different lawyers with very specific
Speaker 1: types of subject matter expertise, and so given the size
Speaker 1: of the project as being described, it would have required
Speaker 1: a lot of different lawyers to be involved. And those
Speaker 1: are those are the kind of matters that law firms
Speaker 1: tend to really like. Question understood and what did you
Speaker 1: understand mister Epstein's job to be at this time? Question?
Speaker 1: I understood, you know, just generally that he was someone
Speaker 1: who had a lot of financial expertise and acumen and
Speaker 1: acted as an advisor to you know, wealthy people and families.
Speaker 1: Question And obviously he had a gigantic mansion that you
Speaker 1: went to. But did you already understand that mister Epstein
Speaker 1: to be a wealthy man when you first met him? Answer?
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything other than the side of his home.
Speaker 1: And no normal person lives in a house like that
Speaker 1: question understood, And you mentioned that he had done some
Speaker 1: sort of or it was your impression he had done
Speaker 1: some sort of financial work for families or other individuals.
Speaker 1: Did you know how he acquired his money? Answer I didn't.
Speaker 1: Question at the time of your first meet with him,
Speaker 1: did you learn who any of his clients were or
Speaker 1: purported to be? Answer? No? Question When did you first
Speaker 1: learn who his clients were? Answer? I knew. I don't
Speaker 1: remember exactly when I learned, you know, over the course
Speaker 1: of time, and I didn't know the exact nature of
Speaker 1: the client relationship other than what I observed about my own.
Speaker 1: The client did come to represent who he was the
Speaker 1: primary advisor for, but I didn't. I didn't have any insight,
Speaker 1: if you will, into the relationship with other clients. Answer,
Speaker 1: and who was the mutual client of yours? Answer? It
Speaker 1: was the Edmund Rothschild Bank. Question. Switching gears a little bit,
Speaker 1: Mister Emmer, we've had another member joined. Can you please
Speaker 1: announce himself for the record, sure, ranking member Robert Garcia.
Speaker 1: Switching gears a little bit. Can you just briefly describe
Speaker 1: the nature and extent of your relationship with mister Epstein
Speaker 1: over the years. Answer, sure, I know him professionally as
Speaker 1: a lawyer. The foundation of my relationship and interaction and
Speaker 1: dealings with Epstein were as a lawyer. As I said,
Speaker 1: within the first few minutes or a few weeks of
Speaker 1: meeting them, he asked whether I was available or whether
Speaker 1: I could be available to work on a representation for
Speaker 1: a client of his, which was Swiss Bank that, like
Speaker 1: every other Swiss Bank, had a problem with US Justice Department,
Speaker 1: and he was in a primary advisory role with that
Speaker 1: client throughout my period of time in private practice, and
Speaker 1: I continue to represent that client throughout my private practice.
Speaker 1: In addition, he referred other clients to me over the years,
Speaker 1: and I was friendly with them. In the context of
Speaker 1: a business relationship, question roughly, how many other clients did
Speaker 1: he refer to you over the years? Answer? I don't
Speaker 1: remember exactly, it was probably three or four. Question and
Speaker 1: who were those clients? Answer? There were two matters. There
Speaker 1: were two matters that are referred to me. I had
Speaker 1: a conflict at the law firm, so I was not
Speaker 1: able to do them. One was a matter that it
Speaker 1: was a civil dispute for Apollo the hedge fund. The
Speaker 1: second one relates to an individual, So I would respect
Speaker 1: prefer not to identify the individual's name, because that I
Speaker 1: think is probably confidential in the context you know, of
Speaker 1: legal representation. Mister Emmer, we've had more members join. Can
Speaker 1: they please announce themselves for the record. I'm Congressman Eric
Speaker 1: Berlison from Missouri, and also I'm Congressman suhas Somebmarennium from Virginia.
Speaker 1: Question by mister Grant. How frequently would you say that
Speaker 1: you communicated with mister Epstein? Actually, let me back up
Speaker 1: for a second. The relationship started, I believe you said
Speaker 1: July twenty fourteen. Roughly answer, that's right. Question, and when
Speaker 1: did your relationship with mister Epstein end? Answer in July
Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen, when he was indicted on sex trafficking
Speaker 1: charges by the US Attorney's Office in the Southern District
Speaker 1: of New York. Question and through this time period of
Speaker 1: July twenty fourteen to July of twenty nineteen, how frequently
Speaker 1: did you communicate with mister Epstein? Roughly? Answer is it's
Speaker 1: hard to say. It was sort of It seemed to
Speaker 1: me that he spent kind of all day every day,
Speaker 1: calling people, emailing people, you know, sort of connecting people.
Speaker 1: So you know, he was someone who was very pushy
Speaker 1: and insinuating, and I think was always trying to My
Speaker 1: impression was he was always trying to make stuff happen
Speaker 1: and sort of put people together, and you know, see
Speaker 1: if he can make deals happen and you know, somehow
Speaker 1: figure out how to monetize that activity of putting business
Speaker 1: people together. Question, So would you say that your personal
Speaker 1: communications with mister Epstein? Were they daily, weekly, monthly, depended
Speaker 1: on what you guys were working on. Answer? I couldn't say.
Speaker 1: I mean, he communicated with me a lot. He emailed
Speaker 1: me a lot, and you know, he was just a
Speaker 1: very very kind of persistent guy in that way. And
Speaker 1: by nature, I'm a responsive person and so I generally
Speaker 1: tried to be responsive. He was such a sort of
Speaker 1: relentless person. It was frankly hard to be responsible all
Speaker 1: the time, particularly because throughout the period of time I
Speaker 1: had very active law practice that had practically or absolutely
Speaker 1: nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. So you know, but yes,
Speaker 1: I mean I emailed them with frequently. I would say,
Speaker 1: you know, throughout the five year period that I knew him.
Speaker 1: Question And was the email the primary method of communication
Speaker 1: answer yes. Question would you have phone calls with mister Epstein?
Speaker 1: Answer yes, Question did you take in person meetings with
Speaker 1: it often with mister Epstein? Answer? I did, but I
Speaker 1: would not characterize those as often because he did not
Speaker 1: live in New York and so, like a lot of
Speaker 1: people who maintain a residence in New York but don't
Speaker 1: live in New York, they had to count their days.
Speaker 1: And so he would come to New York, you know,
Speaker 1: every couple of months, was my impression. And when he did,
Speaker 1: he would ask people, you know, he would reach out
Speaker 1: to people and ask them to come and have meetings.
Speaker 1: And so if I met with him in person, it
Speaker 1: would be at his typically in the dining room of
Speaker 1: his Manhattan townhouse. Question and can you estimate how many
Speaker 1: in person meetings you had with mister Epstein? Answer? I
Speaker 1: really can't, But again just knowing, just knowing his general
Speaker 1: frequency of coming to New York, Like let's say he came,
Speaker 1: you know, six times a year. If I happened to
Speaker 1: be in New York, which I wasn't always and he
Speaker 1: asked me to come for a meeting, you know, I
Speaker 1: typically would do that, and so you know, this is
Speaker 1: just a guess. But i'd say, you know, I may
Speaker 1: be met with him in person like twenty times over
Speaker 1: the five years. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up
Speaker 1: right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
Speaker 1: we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the
Speaker 1: information that goes with this episode can be found in
Speaker 1: the description box.