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<v Speaker 1>What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up

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<v Speaker 1>right where we left off with Kathy Rumler and her

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<v Speaker 1>transcribed interview with Congress. Question mister Emmer, we've had another

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<v Speaker 1>member join. Can he please announce himself for the record,

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<v Speaker 1>mister Walkinshaw, Virginia's eleventh district, Miss Stansbury, New Mexico's first

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<v Speaker 1>congressional district. Question by mister Grant. Miss Rumler, When did

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<v Speaker 1>you first meet Jeffrey Epstein? Answer? I first met him

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<v Speaker 1>in July of twenty fourteen when he called called Latham

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<v Speaker 1>and walkins and asked to speak to me. Question And

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<v Speaker 1>prior to that cold call you had no other interactions

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<v Speaker 1>with him? Answer none? Question no in person meetings? Answer No,

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<v Speaker 1>I had not. I didn't know who he was prior

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<v Speaker 1>to receiving the message that this person named Jeffrey Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>had called and asked for me to return his call

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<v Speaker 1>relating to a potential legal matter. Question and at this

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<v Speaker 1>time were you aware of his previous legal trouble? Answer

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<v Speaker 1>at that time? No. Question. And what was the reason

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<v Speaker 1>for this cold call? Answer what he said? So I

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<v Speaker 1>returned the call what he said was that he was

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<v Speaker 1>working with Bill Gates to put together a large donor

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<v Speaker 1>advised fund that would allow people to pull their resources

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<v Speaker 1>for philanthropy and therefore be you know, sort of potentially

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<v Speaker 1>have a greater impact. This was an idea that he

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<v Speaker 1>told me he'd been working on with mister Gates, and

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<v Speaker 1>that there were a number of legal issues that would

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<v Speaker 1>be involved. There would be tax issues and securities issues,

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<v Speaker 1>and there would be the establishment of the fund. And

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<v Speaker 1>while I didn't have any particular expertise in, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>these particular legal subjects, what he said was, I understand

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<v Speaker 1>that you are, you know, an excellent generalist lawyer, and

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<v Speaker 1>we need someone to quarterback these various legal issues that

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<v Speaker 1>will come into play. Question and are you aware of

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<v Speaker 1>somebody referring him to you? Answer? I didn't know that. No,

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't know why he was reaching out to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Question have you subsequently learned if someone referred him to you? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>When I met him in the first meeting. So he

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<v Speaker 1>asked me in that first phone call if I would

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<v Speaker 1>meet with him to discuss it further. And in that

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<v Speaker 1>first meeting, to the best of my recollection, he mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of people who we knew in common question

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<v Speaker 1>and who are those people? Answer Larry Summers, I recall

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<v Speaker 1>him mentioning and Reid Weingarten, who was a prominent criminal

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<v Speaker 1>defense attorney. Question and for the first phone call you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>the Cole call I'll refer to it, was anyone else

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<v Speaker 1>present on this call with you? Answer? No question. And

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<v Speaker 1>in this first person meeting with mister Epstein, was there

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<v Speaker 1>anyone else present at the meeting? Answer? Not during the meeting, No,

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<v Speaker 1>missus Tolan. And you said you had started working at

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<v Speaker 1>Latham Watkins in July of twenty fourteen. Is that correct? Rumler? Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, when he called the law firm, I hadn't

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<v Speaker 1>actually started working yet. It was in the public that

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<v Speaker 1>I was going, I was leaving the White House and

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<v Speaker 1>I was going to return to Latham Watkins. But I

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<v Speaker 1>actually hadn't formally started yet. And so when he called

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<v Speaker 1>the main receptionist to New York, it was routed to

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<v Speaker 1>somebody else, and then the person said, hey, this person

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<v Speaker 1>has a potential new matter. So it was right before

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<v Speaker 1>I started. But actually I hadn't technically started yet. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have an office yet, I didn't have a computer,

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't have a Latham Watkins email. I didn't have

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<v Speaker 1>a phone number yet, Miss Toland, and it was just

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<v Speaker 1>a few days or a couple of weeks or rumler

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<v Speaker 1>it was when when I had the first meeting with him.

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<v Speaker 1>I believe it was the Friday before I started at

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<v Speaker 1>the firm on a Monday. Question by Miss Grant and

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<v Speaker 1>between this cold call in the first meeting that you

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<v Speaker 1>had with mister Epstein in person, what did you know

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<v Speaker 1>about mister Epstein leading into that meeting? Answer? I don't

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<v Speaker 1>remember knowing anything about him. I had never I had

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<v Speaker 1>never heard of him before, and so, you know, walking

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<v Speaker 1>into that meeting, I just don't have any specific recollection

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<v Speaker 1>of knowing much about him at all. I remember the

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<v Speaker 1>first meeting. You know, there was a number of things

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<v Speaker 1>that were striking about that first meeting that I remember

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<v Speaker 1>quite well. Question and what were those things? Answer? He

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<v Speaker 1>So he held you know, his meetings at his townhouse

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<v Speaker 1>that he lived in New York. And it was a

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<v Speaker 1>very large townhouse, extremely large and you know, imposing from

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<v Speaker 1>the street. And I recall that there was you know,

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<v Speaker 1>at the outside of the townhouse. It had two initials.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a bit strange, but a bit unusual to me.

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<v Speaker 1>I hadn't seen that before. People typically have their house numbers,

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<v Speaker 1>but the initials were Jae. And when I went into

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<v Speaker 1>the townhouse, I was asked to go meet him in

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<v Speaker 1>his office. And the office was enormous. It took up

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<v Speaker 1>the entire front, you know, the street front of the mansion.

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<v Speaker 1>And there was this enormous taxi derming tiger on the floor.

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<v Speaker 1>So that was I thought, was something I remember quite well.

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<v Speaker 1>Question and when you arrived for this meeting, did someone

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<v Speaker 1>invite you into the house? Was it mister Epstein or

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<v Speaker 1>someone else? Answer? There there was a buzzer outside, so

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<v Speaker 1>like you know, announcing your arrival, and I believe someone

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<v Speaker 1>opened someone on the staff opened the door for me.

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<v Speaker 1>And then there was a small office on the first

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<v Speaker 1>floor and that was sort of, if you think about it,

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<v Speaker 1>like a secretarial office, and he had an executive assistant

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<v Speaker 1>who sat there. So I believe I sat there waiting

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<v Speaker 1>for the appointment, if you will. And then I was told,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the meeting would start, and I asked to

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<v Speaker 1>walk up a set of stairs to his office. Question

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<v Speaker 1>do you recall who the secretary was at that time? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I believe it was Leslie Groff. Question, what did you

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<v Speaker 1>gets cut off by Rumler. But I certainly came to

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<v Speaker 1>see her, you know, several times when I would have

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<v Speaker 1>meetings at the townhouse. Question that was her office? Was

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<v Speaker 1>my understanding? Question? Understood? And so you mentioned some of

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<v Speaker 1>the impressions you got from the first meeting at Epstein's

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<v Speaker 1>New York home. What were your first impressions of mister

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein from the meeting? Answer? He struck me as extremely arrogant.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a high energy person, you know he was.

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<v Speaker 1>He struck me as eccentric. I don't think I'd ever

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<v Speaker 1>seen anyone's office that size. It was probably three times

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<v Speaker 1>the size. I mean, it was bigger than the Oval office.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, I thought to myself, who has the

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<v Speaker 1>stuff Tiger like sitting on their office floor? The rest

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<v Speaker 1>of well, I'll let you ask the question question what

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<v Speaker 1>did you You've mentioned that the coal call was about

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<v Speaker 1>setting up this fund with mister Gates. Is that the

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<v Speaker 1>only time or the only thing that you brought up

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<v Speaker 1>during this in person meeting as well? Or were there

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<v Speaker 1>other things discussed? Answer? The meeting was like an interview.

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<v Speaker 1>That's how it felt to me. He was interviewing me

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<v Speaker 1>for a potential role. It was a role that had materialized,

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<v Speaker 1>would have been, you know, a great role for a lawyer,

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<v Speaker 1>and it would have been great. It would have been

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<v Speaker 1>great matter for my law firm, because my law firm,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's one of the largest today, but even then,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the largest law firms in the world, and

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<v Speaker 1>so you have lots of different lawyers with very specific

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<v Speaker 1>types of subject matter expertise, and so given the size

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<v Speaker 1>of the project as being described, it would have required

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of different lawyers to be involved. And those

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<v Speaker 1>are those are the kind of matters that law firms

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<v Speaker 1>tend to really like. Question understood and what did you

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<v Speaker 1>understand mister Epstein's job to be at this time? Question?

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<v Speaker 1>I understood, you know, just generally that he was someone

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<v Speaker 1>who had a lot of financial expertise and acumen and

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<v Speaker 1>acted as an advisor to you know, wealthy people and families.

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<v Speaker 1>Question And obviously he had a gigantic mansion that you

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<v Speaker 1>went to. But did you already understand that mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>to be a wealthy man when you first met him? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't know anything other than the side of his home.

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<v Speaker 1>And no normal person lives in a house like that

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<v Speaker 1>question understood, And you mentioned that he had done some

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<v Speaker 1>sort of or it was your impression he had done

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<v Speaker 1>some sort of financial work for families or other individuals.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you know how he acquired his money? Answer I didn't.

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<v Speaker 1>Question at the time of your first meet with him,

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<v Speaker 1>did you learn who any of his clients were or

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<v Speaker 1>purported to be? Answer? No? Question When did you first

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<v Speaker 1>learn who his clients were? Answer? I knew. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>remember exactly when I learned, you know, over the course

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<v Speaker 1>of time, and I didn't know the exact nature of

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<v Speaker 1>the client relationship other than what I observed about my own.

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<v Speaker 1>The client did come to represent who he was the

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<v Speaker 1>primary advisor for, but I didn't. I didn't have any insight,

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<v Speaker 1>if you will, into the relationship with other clients. Answer,

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<v Speaker 1>and who was the mutual client of yours? Answer? It

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<v Speaker 1>was the Edmund Rothschild Bank. Question. Switching gears a little bit,

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<v Speaker 1>Mister Emmer, we've had another member joined. Can you please

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<v Speaker 1>announce himself for the record, sure, ranking member Robert Garcia.

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<v Speaker 1>Switching gears a little bit. Can you just briefly describe

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<v Speaker 1>the nature and extent of your relationship with mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>over the years. Answer, sure, I know him professionally as

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<v Speaker 1>a lawyer. The foundation of my relationship and interaction and

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<v Speaker 1>dealings with Epstein were as a lawyer. As I said,

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<v Speaker 1>within the first few minutes or a few weeks of

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<v Speaker 1>meeting them, he asked whether I was available or whether

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<v Speaker 1>I could be available to work on a representation for

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<v Speaker 1>a client of his, which was Swiss Bank that, like

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<v Speaker 1>every other Swiss Bank, had a problem with US Justice Department,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was in a primary advisory role with that

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<v Speaker 1>client throughout my period of time in private practice, and

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<v Speaker 1>I continue to represent that client throughout my private practice.

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<v Speaker 1>In addition, he referred other clients to me over the years,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was friendly with them. In the context of

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<v Speaker 1>a business relationship, question roughly, how many other clients did

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<v Speaker 1>he refer to you over the years? Answer? I don't

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<v Speaker 1>remember exactly, it was probably three or four. Question and

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<v Speaker 1>who were those clients? Answer? There were two matters. There

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<v Speaker 1>were two matters that are referred to me. I had

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<v Speaker 1>a conflict at the law firm, so I was not

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<v Speaker 1>able to do them. One was a matter that it

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<v Speaker 1>was a civil dispute for Apollo the hedge fund. The

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<v Speaker 1>second one relates to an individual, So I would respect

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<v Speaker 1>prefer not to identify the individual's name, because that I

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<v Speaker 1>think is probably confidential in the context you know, of

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<v Speaker 1>legal representation. Mister Emmer, we've had more members join. Can

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<v Speaker 1>they please announce themselves for the record. I'm Congressman Eric

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<v Speaker 1>Berlison from Missouri, and also I'm Congressman suhas Somebmarennium from Virginia.

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<v Speaker 1>Question by mister Grant. How frequently would you say that

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<v Speaker 1>you communicated with mister Epstein? Actually, let me back up

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<v Speaker 1>for a second. The relationship started, I believe you said

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<v Speaker 1>July twenty fourteen. Roughly answer, that's right. Question, and when

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<v Speaker 1>did your relationship with mister Epstein end? Answer in July

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<v Speaker 1>of twenty nineteen, when he was indicted on sex trafficking

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<v Speaker 1>charges by the US Attorney's Office in the Southern District

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<v Speaker 1>of New York. Question and through this time period of

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<v Speaker 1>July twenty fourteen to July of twenty nineteen, how frequently

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<v Speaker 1>did you communicate with mister Epstein? Roughly? Answer is it's

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<v Speaker 1>hard to say. It was sort of It seemed to

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<v Speaker 1>me that he spent kind of all day every day,

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<v Speaker 1>calling people, emailing people, you know, sort of connecting people.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, he was someone who was very pushy

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<v Speaker 1>and insinuating, and I think was always trying to My

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<v Speaker 1>impression was he was always trying to make stuff happen

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<v Speaker 1>and sort of put people together, and you know, see

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<v Speaker 1>if he can make deals happen and you know, somehow

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<v Speaker 1>figure out how to monetize that activity of putting business

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<v Speaker 1>people together. Question, So would you say that your personal

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<v Speaker 1>communications with mister Epstein? Were they daily, weekly, monthly, depended

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<v Speaker 1>on what you guys were working on. Answer? I couldn't say.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, he communicated with me a lot. He emailed

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<v Speaker 1>me a lot, and you know, he was just a

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<v Speaker 1>very very kind of persistent guy in that way. And

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<v Speaker 1>by nature, I'm a responsive person and so I generally

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<v Speaker 1>tried to be responsive. He was such a sort of

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<v Speaker 1>relentless person. It was frankly hard to be responsible all

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<v Speaker 1>the time, particularly because throughout the period of time I

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<v Speaker 1>had very active law practice that had practically or absolutely

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<v Speaker 1>nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. So you know, but yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I emailed them with frequently. I would say,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, throughout the five year period that I knew him.

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<v Speaker 1>Question And was the email the primary method of communication

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<v Speaker 1>answer yes. Question would you have phone calls with mister Epstein?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer yes, Question did you take in person meetings with

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<v Speaker 1>it often with mister Epstein? Answer? I did, but I

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<v Speaker 1>would not characterize those as often because he did not

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<v Speaker 1>live in New York and so, like a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people who maintain a residence in New York but don't

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<v Speaker 1>live in New York, they had to count their days.

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<v Speaker 1>And so he would come to New York, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>every couple of months, was my impression. And when he did,

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<v Speaker 1>he would ask people, you know, he would reach out

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<v Speaker 1>to people and ask them to come and have meetings.

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<v Speaker 1>And so if I met with him in person, it

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<v Speaker 1>would be at his typically in the dining room of

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<v Speaker 1>his Manhattan townhouse. Question and can you estimate how many

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<v Speaker 1>in person meetings you had with mister Epstein? Answer? I

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<v Speaker 1>really can't, But again just knowing, just knowing his general

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<v Speaker 1>frequency of coming to New York, Like let's say he came,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, six times a year. If I happened to

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<v Speaker 1>be in New York, which I wasn't always and he

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<v Speaker 1>asked me to come for a meeting, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>typically would do that, and so you know, this is

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<v Speaker 1>just a guess. But i'd say, you know, I may

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<v Speaker 1>be met with him in person like twenty times over

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<v Speaker 1>the five years. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up

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<v Speaker 1>right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic,

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the

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<v Speaker 1>information that goes with this episode can be found in

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<v Speaker 1>the description box.