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Set in 50 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:54.240 nineteen sixties and nine and seventies Australia, The Blood on 51 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:58.479 My Hands is the dramatic tale of Shannon O'Leary's childhood years. 52 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:03.120 We grew up under the shadow of horrific domestic violence, 53 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:08.319 sexual and physical abuse, and serial murder. Her story is 54 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:12.840 one of courageous resilience in the face of unimaginable horrors. 55 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:15.800 The responses of those whom. 56 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:19.479 O'Leary and her immediate family reached out to for help 57 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:22.360 are almost as disturbing as the crimes of her violent father. 58 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:26.560 Relatives are afraid to bring disgrace to the family's good name, 59 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:31.560 Nuns condemn the child's objections as disobedience and non compliance, 60 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:35.080 and laws at the time prevent the police from interfering 61 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:39.599 unless someone is killed. The Blood on My Hands is 62 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:43.120 a heartbreaking yet riveting narrative of a childhood spent in 63 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:46.759 pain and terror, betrayed by the people who are supposed 64 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:50.639 to provide safety and understanding and the strength and courage 65 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.919 it takes not just to survive and escape, but to 66 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:57.680 flourish and thrive. The book that we're featuring this evening 67 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:02.360 is The Blood on My Hands Autobiography with my special 68 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:06.280 guest author Shannon O'Leary. Welcome to the program, and thank 69 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:10.280 you for agreeing to this interview. Shannon O'Leary, Hello, and 70 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:14.280 thank you very much for having me. Thank you very much, 71 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:17.920 and your calling from Sydney, Australia. 72 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:21.480 Are you yes, I am hope you can hear me. 73 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:27.680 Yes, we can hear you. Fine, Thank you. Now, let's 74 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.720 set the stage a little bit for our international audience 75 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:34.800 that might not know where this story takes place or 76 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:37.920 some of the places that it takes place. But in 77 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:41.720 the beginning of the book, you talk about your mother 78 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.920 and your grandmother, Sophie and your mother Emma. So let's 79 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:51.879 talk a little bit about your grandmother, Sophie and your mother. 80 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:56.079 Let's go back and tell our audience where originally your 81 00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:59.839 mother and your grandmother are from. Tell us the origins 82 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.959 of your family, and then tell us a little bit 83 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:07.000 about Australia and your grandmother, Sophie and. 84 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:12.720 Your mother Okay, My family, my mother's family, were on 85 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:16.680 the North Shore of Sydney, which is quite a nice, 86 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:20.439 well to do, middle class to upper class area, and 87 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:24.920 they were brought up in kind of the suburban areas. 88 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:28.360 But you've got to remember that in Australia back in 89 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:33.000 the sixties and seventies, our suburbs were quite sprawling, with 90 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:38.120 very very big backyards and not the close kind of 91 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:44.480 suburbs that we have now. They had a nice life, 92 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:48.639 a very very nice Irish kind of Catholic family which 93 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:53.160 was very close. My grandparents were very lovely people, and 94 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:57.720 my mother was very very well protected as a teenager 95 00:05:57.800 --> 00:05:59.240 and of course as a young child. 96 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:07.120 Now, tell us what the sort of the life was. 97 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:10.319 You talked a little bit about how the difference in suburbs, 98 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:16.319 but it was surprising to me the relative hardships and 99 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:22.040 sort of the ruggedness of some of the some of 100 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:25.040 the surroundings that you described. So tell us what it 101 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:29.160 was like in the sixties in this area for someone 102 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:32.920 like your grandparents described that life. For those people that 103 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:37.600 are twenty years old that might be listening to this podcast, well, yeah. 104 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:40.399 Well it was a lot different. When my mother was 105 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:45.199 growing up, she had a fairly normal, normal childhood. But 106 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.680 when she married my father, they of course moved to 107 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.800 a more remote area which of course was bush land, 108 00:06:52.279 --> 00:06:56.519 no electricity, and it became a lot different than what 109 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:59.160 she was used to as a little girl and as 110 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:04.560 a teenage. Australia was very well still is it's a 111 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:08.240 very rugged country. But around the Sydney areas we have 112 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:11.839 our suburbs. We have a lot of bush areas back 113 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:15.399 in the sixties, and a lot of crown land, which 114 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:17.480 of course was owned by the government, which was just 115 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:22.800 basically bushland, gorgeous other things which were kind of on 116 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:24.199 the fringes of the suburbs. 117 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:31.480 Now, tell us a little about the circumstances in which 118 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:36.199 your mother and what age she met Patrick or Leary, 119 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:40.600 and tell us a little bit about that the circumstances 120 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:41.680 in which they met. 121 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:47.240 Okay, my mother had to leave school because because she 122 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:50.600 had to help support family a bit, because of course, 123 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:53.560 there was the Second World War when she was younger, 124 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:55.959 so she didn't meet her father until she was about 125 00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:00.000 six years of age when he came back. They subsequently 126 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.759 we had four more siblings and that kind of set 127 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:08.279 their family up to having six children. So when mum 128 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:14.480 did her intermediate leaving certificate. She was about sixteen years old, 129 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:18.360 and then she got a job as a dental assistant. 130 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:23.399 She met my father purely by accident. She doesn't know 131 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:27.000 if it was orchestrated. She was reading a book and 132 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:29.439 he bumped into her. She doesn't know if that was 133 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:33.720 accidental or it was deliberate. And from then on he 134 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:36.639 seemed to be there all the time saying will you 135 00:08:36.759 --> 00:08:39.519 go out with me? And eventually she said yes. 136 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:46.039 Now was he much older? And what did she know 137 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:49.480 about him or what did she hear about him soon 138 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:50.480 after their meeting? 139 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:57.159 Okay, she had she had met him as a small child. Well, 140 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:00.320 she hadn't actually met him, but she'd seen him. Of course. 141 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:04.679 He was a boy that had broken her brother's cricket 142 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.879 back on a tree. And they were known as my 143 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:11.159 father's family, were known as the Charity family. They were very, 144 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:15.240 very poor, and they were the kids she kind of 145 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:18.759 saw in the mainstream, you know, they were the kids 146 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:21.759 that were around the block and you didn't associate with them. 147 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:24.759 But she did know of him, but she didn't know 148 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:26.000 him personally. 149 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.840 And what did she think of him in terms of 150 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:36.000 initially in terms of his behavior, what would she categorize 151 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:38.639 him as what did she see initially. 152 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:44.279 When he bumped into Yeah, when he bumped into bumped 153 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:48.559 into him, she thought he was quite rude and she 154 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:51.559 kind of was, I think, a vivid in all she said. 155 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:55.720 Of this person that just kept saying, you know, go 156 00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:57.840 out with me, go out with me. And I think 157 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:00.639 because she was pretty naive and she didn't really go 158 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:03.799 out with people. My father used to get a chaperone 159 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:07.799 if she went anywhere by her brother, she probably was 160 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:10.919 a bit flattered. Do I suppose he wasn't bad looking, 161 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:17.919 and he was pretty persuasive, I think, and. 162 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.200 Your mother was in terms of relationships with young men. 163 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:25.159 She was relatively inexperienced and. 164 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:30.039 Totally totally hadn't gone out with anyone before. 165 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:34.399 And what was her parents? What was her parents' response 166 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:36.879 to what she What did they think of this young man? 167 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:42.960 They certainly didn't encourage it, and her brother, the one 168 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:45.639 who had met him with years earlier, didn't want her 169 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:48.799 to go out with him. In the end, they actually said, 170 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:50.360 all right, you can go out as long as your 171 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:58.879 brother goes as a chaperone. She was only seventeen, I think, 172 00:10:59.039 --> 00:10:59.919 just turned seventeen. 173 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:06.120 Now, how does it progress to them wanting to get married. 174 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:08.919 I guess did I guess it was common for people 175 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:10.840 to get married at a younger age. But what was 176 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:15.480 the How did he convince her that and the family 177 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:17.799 as well, that he would be a person who would 178 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.440 be able to keep her safe and take care of her. 179 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:26.240 And which, Yeah, she got pregnant with my brother and 180 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:30.679 she had the choice from her family. Her family said no, 181 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:36.159 don't get married, and my grandmother actually said she would 182 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:38.960 adopt the child so that the child would be in 183 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:44.240 the family and mum, so I think, well, she probably 184 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.639 just had a bit of guilt, and probably she probably 185 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:53.120 was attracted to my father too, and she decided no, 186 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:54.240 she would get married. 187 00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:59.320 Which interesting part of your book is you talk about 188 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:04.039 the father, her father, that she really probably wasn't as 189 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:07.320 close to us as her mother, and yet her father 190 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:12.240 walking and walking down the aisle with her, what did 191 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:13.000 he say to her? 192 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:16.120 He said, look, you don't have to do it right 193 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:19.360 at the last minute, you know, But she went ahead 194 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:22.840 with it, because she always says that she did feel 195 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:27.279 really terrible. It just she just I suppose, being brought 196 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:30.200 up in the Catholic religion, it was something that you 197 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:33.320 if you you certainly didn't have a child out of wedlock, 198 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:36.840 and I think that she thought that was the thing 199 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:38.919 she had to do to make everything right. 200 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.840 Now, right from the get go. What is your mother's 201 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:51.799 experience with Patrick O'Leary, and what are the circumstances, the 202 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:56.679 living conditions that they are that they're put upon after 203 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:00.360 the marriage. What, oh, pardon me before we get to that, right, 204 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:04.679 please tell us just a little bit about the honeymoon. 205 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:08.840 Oh, the honeymoon ball. This is all what my mother 206 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:12.840 has told me and family members. It was pretty horrific 207 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.320 for her. She expected that she would have a good honeymoon, 208 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:18.960 but they ended up he said he was taking her away, 209 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:22.279 so they went away, but it ended up being one 210 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:26.799 night in a beat shack, which was pretty horrendous. You know, 211 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.840 had bed bugs and there wasn't any other creature comforts 212 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:33.519 that you'd think you'd have on a honeymoon. And then 213 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.639 of course they had nowhere to say so because he'd 214 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:40.200 only got this place for one night, and he said 215 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:44.919 she wanted to go home. She was desperately unhappy, and 216 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:49.120 they ended up kind of sleeping in the car a 217 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:53.639 bit and driving around, and eventually there was a fight 218 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:57.279 in the pub because my father wanted to have a drink, 219 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:01.360 and my mother actually was wearing her her school blaze 220 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:04.000 up because she didn't really have many clothes at that time, 221 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.279 and she just took it because it was warm. I 222 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:08.440 sag yet, I said, you know, and she put it 223 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:10.960 on and didn't think anything of it, and of course 224 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:13.519 was told that they're too young to have a drink, 225 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:17.720 and my father got quite angry and quite abusive towards her. 226 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.120 I guess this story is demonstrative of the honeymoon story, 227 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:26.720 and then of course the continuum of the honeymoon where 228 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:28.240 they're going into the bar and then he gets into 229 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:30.919 a fight, then calls are stupid for wearing a jacket. 230 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:38.519 How important is alcohol and how much does she see 231 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:44.360 any kind of anger or temper coming from her new husband. 232 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:49.639 I think because her own parents were not big drinkers 233 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:53.480 and were like, I don't ever remember my grandmother drinking. 234 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.159 And I think my grandfather was lucky to have a shandy. 235 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:58.919 That's a do you know what a shandy is? It's 236 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:02.480 kind of a lemonade, lemonade mixed with beer. It's not 237 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:05.399 a very nice trip, but yeah, so it's something. 238 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:09.159 That's a light beverage, and they weren't big drinkers, so 239 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:15.279 she wouldn't have been exposed to alcoholism or anything like that. 240 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:18.919 And as for violence, she wasn't exposed to that either. 241 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:22.399 She so to be shouted at, I suppose it would 242 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.759 have been pretty horrendous for her, and to have the 243 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:28.120 whole thing of going into a pub would have been 244 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:30.960 a totally alien experience for her. 245 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:39.200 Now, how soon after does the couple have children? 246 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.679 Oh, virtually, Well, she was already pregnant, so it was 247 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:48.159 virtually me immediately, I think she was. I can't. I 248 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:50.960 can't say for certain because I think she said she 249 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.639 would have been about four months pregnant, but she got 250 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:58.159 married or three months pregnant. It was in the early stages. 251 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:01.960 So she got married and then course subsequently had my brother. 252 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:06.720 They moved in with my father's mother. He didn't have 253 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:09.960 a father. His father died before he was born, and 254 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:14.279 that was pretty horrendous for my mother too, because my 255 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.360 grandmother on that side was totally different to her mother. 256 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.720 She was a cleaning woman, ran a very very strict household, 257 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:28.360 and my mother became virtually, I suppose, a servant in 258 00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:31.559 the household because she didn't have a job. She was pregnant. 259 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:35.320 She was living there, so in order to earn her board. 260 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.000 Part of it was to look after the house, look 261 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:41.639 after my father, and make sure things worked in that home, 262 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.600 which wasn't That wasn't a luxurious home either. It was 263 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:50.559 just an old house on a battle axe block and 264 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:53.799 there was a garden with vegetables in it, and she 265 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:57.159 basically had to look after all of that. 266 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:04.359 Tell us about the character of Grandma O'Leary. She was 267 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:05.119 John O'Leary. 268 00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:11.839 Okay, John O'Leary died before Patrick was born. The stories 269 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:16.519 we've only got stories. He was quite violent. He was 270 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:19.200 a very strong labor of support, a very big drinker, 271 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.680 love fighting. We heard that he's had lots of fights. 272 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:31.880 And basically we found out after my after grandmother earliery 273 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:37.079 died that they seem to never be married, that she 274 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:40.279 she went there as a as a as a young 275 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.400 girl wanting employment. He gave her employment and subsequently they 276 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:48.200 had quite a large brood of children. After the facts. 277 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:51.240 When she was working there as a housekeeper stayed on. 278 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:55.559 People thought they were married, but they weren't, and when 279 00:17:55.640 --> 00:18:00.000 he died that that whole fan part of the family 280 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:04.720 became the charity family, because you know, that's what the 281 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.480 other Catholic religion did in those days. If there were 282 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.039 people that wanted to go to the school, they let 283 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:14.680 them go to the school, and they were kind of subsidized. 284 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.680 They were the charity kids. Grandma o leary, from what 285 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:23.359 I remember of her, she was quite severe. She liked 286 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.119 one of my brothers and was very probably very kind 287 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:29.359 to him. I think she was a product of her 288 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:35.319 time where she was a very hard working and unfortunately 289 00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:39.240 a very hard woman. Because of that, I think she 290 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:40.880 had her own demons to deal with. 291 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:48.160 And what was the You alluded to it, but you 292 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:53.400 have many, many examples of the kind of events that 293 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:56.680 would happen as a result of this dynamic with Patrick. 294 00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:00.599 So what was the dynamic between Patrick, his mother and 295 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:04.759 the wife when those when your mother and Patrick and 296 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:06.680 his mother were in the room, what was that dynamic? 297 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:10.240 Lake, The dynamic was, well, there was no one in 298 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:13.440 the room. But then if you were in the room 299 00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:18.240 with my father and Grandma O'Leary, they were the two 300 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.559 people that were the focus of the room. If you 301 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:22.920 were a child, you never said anything out of turn. 302 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:27.680 And I think with my mother she was definitely. Well, 303 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:32.200 she wasn't seen to be on their level. Basically she 304 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:34.000 was a shadow. 305 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:40.240 And what was what was the relationship and dynamic lake 306 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:43.720 between his mother and Patrick? 307 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:52.039 Patrick was very very fond of his mother. I am well. 308 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:55.160 We all found out later that he used to go 309 00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:00.279 around and visit his mother quite frequently, many many times 310 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:05.799 each week without everyone else knowing that. We've heard lots 311 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:08.559 of interesting things that he he swept in the same 312 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.599 bed until he was thirteen. Other members of the family 313 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:15.279 have said it was quite a bizarre relationship. He was 314 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:22.279 the youngest of all the children, and he seemed to 315 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:25.599 I don't know if he was frightened of his mother 316 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:29.359 or if he idolized her. It was like that whole 317 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:33.200 chalk and cheese thing where there's some The dynamic was 318 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:39.000 very very complicated. If she said to do something, he 319 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:44.119 would do it if if but he had this also 320 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.440 this very very huge sense of connection or responsibility to 321 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:49.160 her as well. 322 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.319 Now you mentioned it at one time your mother was 323 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:57.240 a dental assistant, yes, and what was so what do 324 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:02.480 they do for income now? And what was what was 325 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:05.960 Patrick O'Leary's source of income? What was his trade? 326 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.519 What did he do okay, he was. He was a plumber, 327 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:15.640 but he didn't have his certificate, but he was practicing 328 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.680 as a plumber. My mother was told as soon as 329 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.279 she got married she couldn't work anymore, so that was it. 330 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:23.920 She had to give up what she was doing. She 331 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.599 did love being a dental assistant, so her income was 332 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:34.079 immediately was cut off. He Patrick worked as a plumber 333 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:38.359 and did odd jobs for people, so the income was 334 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:43.440 pretty minimal. But of course they were probably living in 335 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:48.559 Grammar O'Leary's house. That it probably made the debts less 336 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.079 because they were living with someone else. 337 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:56.880 And now what was the behavior Like, was the behavior 338 00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:02.680 different with Patrick in front of his mother or or 339 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.279 when he was just alone with your mother? According to 340 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:07.839 her differently. 341 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.559 Yeah, definitely when he was alone with my mother. My 342 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:17.160 mother was very very subservient and had to be the 343 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:20.400 perfect wife, which is pretty impossible, but that's what she 344 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:25.200 had to be. With Grandma O'Leary present, she still had 345 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:28.160 to be the perfect wife. But she was like the 346 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:32.599 third person. She wasn't really considered in anything. It was 347 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:38.000 basically do this, do the right thing, and don't get 348 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:38.519 in our way. 349 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.519 Now. You were born in nineteen fifty nine were any 350 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:52.720 complic There was no complication. Tell us about your early beginnings, 351 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:53.720 did you. 352 00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:56.680 There? 353 00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:57.039 I was. 354 00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:00.119 My birth was pretty complicated. I was a premier to 355 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:03.480 a baby, and no one really realized I was coming 356 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.039 along because I was a twin and my mother had 357 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:15.039 miscarried previously about four four months before I was born, 358 00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:19.359 so she thought she had lost the baby. Didn't realize 359 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:23.279 that I had survived because I don't know, maybe her 360 00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:27.279 doctor didn't realize. I have no idea of those fine details, 361 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.039 but anyway, they didn't really realize I was coming along. 362 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:34.680 And when I did come along, I was premature, so 363 00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:38.160 she went into labor with me and I was wisked 364 00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:44.480 off to a humidicrim Also my mum my parents one's 365 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.400 negative and one's positive, so I was a receeless baby. 366 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:51.680 All the babies were receeless, so we had the transfusions, 367 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.240 so we were quite sickly children. 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