Speaker 1: The Coca Cola Company, Cure of Doctor Pepper and Pepsi
Speaker 1: Co are bringing consumers more choices with less sugar than
Speaker 1: ever before, from sparkling, flavored and bottled waters to zero
Speaker 1: sugar sports drinks, teas and sodas. Consumers are taking advantage
Speaker 1: of these choices. In fact, nearly sixty percent of beverages
Speaker 1: sold contains zero sugar. To learn more of visit balanceus
Speaker 1: dot org.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 3: It is Ryan and I was on a flight the
Speaker 3: other day playing one of my favorite social spin slot
Speaker 3: games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at the
Speaker 3: person sitting next to me, and you know what they
Speaker 3: were doing. They were also playing Chumpa Casino. Coincidence, I
Speaker 3: think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino's
Speaker 3: home to hundreds at casino style games. You can play
Speaker 3: for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. So
Speaker 3: sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to claim
Speaker 3: your free welcome bonus. That's Chumbuck Casino dot com and
Speaker 3: live the Chumba Laan.
Speaker 4: No processary dwod wherever I lost the terms conditions eighteen
Speaker 4: plus love.
Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 5: Killers in true crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker Bck. Every week,
Speaker 5: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 2: Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 2: program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime
Speaker 2: History and the authors that have written about them. Serial
Speaker 2: Killer couples Bonded by sexual depravity. Abduction and Murder chronicles
Speaker 2: the true crimes of sexually motivated serial killers who are intimate.
Speaker 2: In this latest true crime book from award winning best
Speaker 2: selling criminologist R. Barry Flowers, nine gripping tales examined killer
Speaker 2: couples from America, England and Canada whose murderous reign of
Speaker 2: terror knows no end till they are brought to justice.
Speaker 2: Chapter one, we have Raymond Fernandez and Martha Beck. Chapter two,
Speaker 2: Ian Brady and Myra Hindley. Chapter three, Fred West and
Speaker 2: Rosemary West. Chapter four, Gerald Galago and Charlene Galago. Chapter five,
Speaker 2: Douglas Clark and Carol Mary Bundy. In chapter six Alvin
Speaker 2: Neely and Judith an Neely, Chapter seven, Alton Coleman and
Speaker 2: Deborah Denise Brown, Chapter eight James Gregory Marlow and Cynthia Kaufman,
Speaker 2: and in chapter nine Paul Bernardo and Carla Jmalka. The
Speaker 2: book that we are featuring this evening is Serial Killer
Speaker 2: Couples by journalist and author Are Barry Flowers. Welcome back
Speaker 2: to the program. Are Barry Flowers? And thank you to
Speaker 2: this interview.
Speaker 6: It's my pleasure, Dan, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you very much, Barry. This is going to
Speaker 2: be a great show, great book for a big true
Speaker 2: crime fan like myself, and I know the audience is
Speaker 2: a devout group of true crime fans. Here are some
Speaker 2: ones that we are not so familiar with, so let's
Speaker 2: get right to it. You are an award winning true
Speaker 2: crime author. Exactly what compelled you to write about these
Speaker 2: particular couples? Why write about serial killer couples? Tell our audience.
Speaker 6: Please, okay, Well, I wanted to write about couples who
Speaker 6: were intimately involved and serial killers at the same time,
Speaker 6: because they're unusual. You have a lot of well, most
Speaker 6: of the killers that are serial killers are solo killers.
Speaker 6: One they operate alone and all across the country. And
Speaker 6: then you have killers who are pairs or even in
Speaker 6: a group, but they're not romantically involved, so you know,
Speaker 6: they don't have the same type invested interest in the relationships.
Speaker 6: So with serial killer couples, I wanted to examine killers
Speaker 6: who are involved in their romantic lives as well as
Speaker 6: this uh desire to kill Right.
Speaker 2: Now, now, you could have picked there are you know,
Speaker 2: even though it's fairly unusual to have serial killer couples,
Speaker 2: it's amazing that you've had even these nine incredible examples.
Speaker 2: But please tell us what was the criteria used to
Speaker 2: sort of whittle that list down to these nine extraordinary
Speaker 2: serial killer couples. What criteria did you use used to
Speaker 2: pick from the you know, numerous ones that you could
Speaker 2: have picked from in you know, the course of history,
Speaker 2: because you have some older cases here and some more
Speaker 2: recent cases. So tell us what were you what was
Speaker 2: your criteria used to pick these particular serial killer couples.
Speaker 6: Well, I wanted to focus on couples who were not
Speaker 6: only intimately involved, but uh were sexually motivated in their
Speaker 6: killings and right desire to kill, and so that in
Speaker 6: and of itself separated them from some killers who may kill,
Speaker 6: for example, for money, with money being their primary motivation.
Speaker 6: Right And the case of all these killers, they were
Speaker 6: driven largely by the need to sexual depravity, need to
Speaker 6: sexually assault, to enslave their victims, to fourth their will
Speaker 6: upon them to do what they wanted, sexual slavery.
Speaker 2: Right now, let's let's get to the cases in specifically
Speaker 2: that you've picked for your incredible book. And let's start
Speaker 2: with chapter one with Raymond Fernandez and Martha Beck and
Speaker 2: and tell us a little bit that these are These
Speaker 2: were termed the Lonely Hearts Killers. Yes, and so tell
Speaker 2: us first why they were called the Lonely Hearts killers.
Speaker 2: Give us a little bit of that background, and then
Speaker 2: tell us in what and whereabouts exactly because you said
Speaker 2: there's cases from England and America and Canada. So tell
Speaker 2: us where this case was and around what time frame,
Speaker 2: what era it was, and please explain why they were
Speaker 2: termed or coined the Lonely Hearts Killers.
Speaker 6: Okay, I'd be happy to Raymond Fernandez and Martha Beck
Speaker 6: were killers in the nineteen forties in America. They were
Speaker 6: dubbed Lonely Hearts killers. By the press because they were
Speaker 6: meeting victims, targeting victims who placed lonely hearts ads in
Speaker 6: personal ads in magazines and newspapers. So they preyed upon
Speaker 6: lonely women gullible looking for love, and hence the lonely
Speaker 6: hearts killers and the Fernandez and Beck. In addition to
Speaker 6: wanting to take advantage of these women sexually, they were
Speaker 6: interested in building from them anything they could get their
Speaker 6: hands on, money, other items of value, and so they
Speaker 6: were the consummate con artists as well as assaulting these
Speaker 6: vulnerable women sexually and then murdering them. I should add
Speaker 6: that Martha Beck was around three hundred pounds, so she
Speaker 6: they had an unusual relationship. Say the least turned Raymond Fernandez,
Speaker 6: but they were I mean, he was a good looking
Speaker 6: guy from born in Hawaii and uh but he and
Speaker 6: the two what they had in common was their desire
Speaker 6: to murder and to con people out of their money.
Speaker 6: And so a problem arose here in which the three
Speaker 6: hundred pounds Martha Beck found herself jealous increasingly as they
Speaker 6: had an actually been conning women and then moving on
Speaker 6: to new victims, letting those previous victims live. But the
Speaker 6: more this went on the more. Uh, Raymond Fernandez was
Speaker 6: sexually involved with the victims, all this part of the
Speaker 6: Khan and sexual motivation, but Marx that grew increasingly jealous
Speaker 6: and she began to take that jealousy out on the
Speaker 6: victim on the victims of the Khan, that she felt
Speaker 6: that it wasn't enough just to rob them blind. She
Speaker 6: wanted them dead because they were sexually active with their men.
Speaker 6: And so that's really the impetus for turning from being
Speaker 6: con artists and uh, sexually active with these women to
Speaker 6: murdering them. And uh, they would to keep this.
Speaker 2: Sorry, what was the what was the what found interesting
Speaker 2: was what was the practice of voodoo? What did that
Speaker 2: have to do with this with these murders of anything?
Speaker 6: Oh? Well, uh, actually the voodoo was something that Raymond
Speaker 6: Fernandez said. I don't think he actually believed in voodoo,
Speaker 6: but he used this as a means to convince others
Speaker 6: that he was a person that was almost invulnerable to harm, right,
Speaker 6: which is strange in a way considering he was in
Speaker 6: an accident on a boat afraider heading to America and
Speaker 6: he was hit in the head by something on the boat.
Speaker 6: A still hatch fell and hit him right on the
Speaker 6: top of his head and he was seriously injured, had
Speaker 6: a factor's go and damaged to his frontal lobe. Anyway,
Speaker 6: this appearance he caused his personality to change, and that's
Speaker 6: when he began going into these going after these lonely
Speaker 6: hearts women and met Martha Beck and turned to murder
Speaker 6: as part of their to few of their fantasies and
Speaker 6: their desire to control these women.
Speaker 2: It's interesting too that she says that around she had
Speaker 2: a glandular problem, so that around ten years old she
Speaker 2: was fully formed like an adult with the sex drive
Speaker 2: of an adult.
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, that is true, and so that was part
Speaker 6: of her She actually placed an ad herself, a lonely
Speaker 6: heart's ad that Raymond Fernandez answered, and that's how they
Speaker 6: got together. So she was definitely sexually charged. She often
Speaker 6: betted men in the military before she became involved with Fernandez.
Speaker 6: This couple were arrested see February twenty ninth, I believe,
Speaker 6: nineteen forty nine in Michigan, right after they'd murdered one
Speaker 6: of their victims, a forty one year old woman and
Speaker 6: her two year old daughter, and Fernandez and Beck had
Speaker 6: also murdered a woman in New York prior to that,
Speaker 6: so they confessed to the murder in Michigan under the
Speaker 6: hope that they would not have to go to New
Speaker 6: York because there was no death penalty in Michigan, right
Speaker 6: that was in New York. So they signed a long confession,
Speaker 6: getting assurances of the cuating attorneys that they wouldn't be
Speaker 6: extradited to New York. But unfortunately the pressure was put
Speaker 6: on them by the New York authorities who wanted to
Speaker 6: see them die fry for their crimes against one of
Speaker 6: their citizens. So Michigan renigged them the deal and extradited
Speaker 6: the two to New York, where they trial for murdering
Speaker 6: a woman and were found guilty sentenced to death in
Speaker 6: August nineteen forty nine, and on March eighth, nineteen fifty one,
Speaker 6: Fernandous and Beck were actually executed in the electric chair
Speaker 6: at Sing Sing Present for their crimes.
Speaker 2: Right now, the let's talk about seventeen women, Do we
Speaker 2: know the actual tally of people they did actually did murder?
Speaker 2: Because when they were arrested, Raymond Fernandez was quite flamboyant
Speaker 2: and was quoted as saying, I'm no average killer and
Speaker 2: he talked about his power and in his way with women,
Speaker 2: he told investigators. So was there some sort of embellishment
Speaker 2: or were they quite sure that tell us what the
Speaker 2: tally was officially on how many murders.
Speaker 6: The official tally was three victims, but the authorities believe
Speaker 6: that they may have killed as many as twenty. But
Speaker 6: because they were moving around, they weren't able to pin
Speaker 6: down some of these others that they still strongly suspected
Speaker 6: they were guilty of.
Speaker 2: Right, and it really captured national attention at this time
Speaker 2: because of the shocking nature of the crimes and the
Speaker 2: lurid details and the graphics and you know, the horrible details.
Speaker 2: They drowned the two year old child just because they
Speaker 2: wouldn't stop crying.
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, they were certainly pair that stood out during
Speaker 6: that time, and they weren't afraid to talk about their
Speaker 6: sexual excapades in graphic detail during the trial. And they
Speaker 6: just were unusual couple in the nineteen forties of being
Speaker 6: a male female killing team that was motivated as much
Speaker 6: by sexual conquest as profit. And it caught up to
Speaker 6: them and they paid the ultimate price.
Speaker 2: Right, A very interesting case. Let's move now to Ian
Speaker 2: Brady and Myra Hindley, and this is from the UK,
Speaker 2: from England, and their murders were called the Moors murders.
Speaker 2: Interesting case two because there was a witness that was
Speaker 2: important that trial, and because this witness not only witnessed
Speaker 2: the murder itself by Ian Brady. Watch this guy axe
Speaker 2: murder someone that also he's also privy to their confession
Speaker 2: and they're boasting about other murders. So tell us about
Speaker 2: Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, and tell us again about
Speaker 2: what year or what era this was, and tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit about David Smith and Ian Brady and
Speaker 2: Myra Hindley.
Speaker 6: Okay, well, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley were British serial
Speaker 6: killers in the nineteen sixties. They were murdered five children,
Speaker 6: sixtually assaulting them as well, and these became known as
Speaker 6: the More Murders, a reflection of the fact that most
Speaker 6: of the victims who buried in the saddle Worth More
Speaker 6: which is right now and it's private Greater Manchester, England.
Speaker 6: So Brady and Hindy were pretty fascinated with phonography and
Speaker 6: committing the perfect murder. The two were inspired by American
Speaker 6: teen killers Richard Loebe and Nathan Leopold who murdered a
Speaker 6: fourteen year old named Bobby Frank in Chicago during the
Speaker 6: nineteen twenties. So anyway, Hindy and Brady were interested in
Speaker 6: abducting children, sexually assaulting them, torturing them, and killing them.
Speaker 6: And David Smith.
Speaker 2: Was the.
Speaker 6: He started off being just a friend of the two,
Speaker 6: but he ultimately married Myra, Hindy's sister, so he became
Speaker 6: her brother in law right, But he also was hanging
Speaker 6: around the two enough to see some of the things
Speaker 6: they were doing. And he with one hand deregu it is.
Speaker 3: Ryan here, and I have a question for you. What
Speaker 3: do you do when you win? Like? Are you a
Speaker 3: fist pumper, a woo, a handclapp or a high fiver?
Speaker 3: I kind of like the high five. But if you
Speaker 3: want to hone in on those winning moves, check out
Speaker 3: Chumbuck Casino. At chumback Casino dot com, choose from hundreds
Speaker 3: of social casino style games for your chance to redeem
Speaker 3: serious cash prizes. There are new game releases weekly, plus
Speaker 3: free daily bonuses, so don't wait start having the most
Speaker 3: fun ever at chumba Casino dot com.
Speaker 4: No we necessary DVD wherever if I lost the terms
Speaker 4: conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 3: Lucky Land Casino, asking people, what's the weirdest place you've
Speaker 3: gotten lucky?
Speaker 1: Lucky? In line at the Delhi, I guess ah, in
Speaker 1: my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have
Speaker 1: to say?
Speaker 5: Yes? You do?
Speaker 1: In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?
Speaker 4: Really?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 4: Excuse me?
Speaker 1: What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 4: I never win?
Speaker 5: And tell well, there you have it.
Speaker 3: You could get lucky anywhere playing at Lucky landslaughts dot
Speaker 3: com play for free right now?
Speaker 1: Are you feeling lucky?
Speaker 4: No, We're not necessary for my long eighteen plus terms
Speaker 4: conditions of poets everyda else the.
Speaker 6: Act to Death and be one of their victims. And
Speaker 6: then I and Brady attempted to get David Smith to
Speaker 6: help him to dispose of the body, but ultimately he
Speaker 6: went to the authorities to report what he had witnessed
Speaker 6: and his role, which consisted of helping to move the
Speaker 6: body from one room to another. So ultimately he pointed
Speaker 6: the finger at his friends, his wife's sister and her
Speaker 6: man in her life in Brady and they were finally
Speaker 6: brought to justice after being able to successfully murder these
Speaker 6: young children. Uh burying most of them in the moors,
Speaker 6: and they were ultimately found guilty of most of the murders.
Speaker 6: At least one of the children was never found, UH,
Speaker 6: but fortunately they were able to locate most of them,
Speaker 6: and Brady was convicted on three of the murders in
Speaker 6: Hindi two of them, and Uh Brady received three concurrent
Speaker 6: life sentences and Hindy got two lifeent.
Speaker 2: But was it David Smith that actually was told by
Speaker 2: Ian Brady and Myra Hindley or was it his wife
Speaker 2: which was Myra Hindley's sister, which one of them actually
Speaker 2: had heard the details of them burying the children and
Speaker 2: that's when that prompted the police that had enough I
Speaker 2: guess enough enough warrant to be able to go search
Speaker 2: this area and then they found four the four of
Speaker 2: the bodies in those moors there. So which which was
Speaker 2: it David or was it was it his wife that
Speaker 2: actually had heard them boasting about that there was other victims?
Speaker 6: And was actually David actually David He had a sort
Speaker 6: of a bond with Ian Brady, and Brady liked to
Speaker 6: brag about his crimes and he had just the right
Speaker 6: person to listen at the time, and Uh of course,
Speaker 6: that ended up backfiring on him later as David Smith
Speaker 6: finally did the right thing for himself and his wife
Speaker 6: and went to the authorities.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 6: Ian Brady was ultimately career to be criminally insane, sent
Speaker 6: to a psychiatric hospital where he remains to this date.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Interesting, And we'll talk about another case that was
Speaker 2: they were an American case where they talk about that
Speaker 2: there were the US counterpart to Ian Brady and Mara Henley.
Speaker 2: We'll talk about that that couple a little bit later
Speaker 2: as we go through this. Now the next chapter, you
Speaker 2: have a couple that is quite notorious. I just saw
Speaker 2: a program on Investigation Discovery about these two people, and
Speaker 2: I've read numerous stuff. Fred and Rosemary West. Please tell
Speaker 2: us about this notorious serial killer couple.
Speaker 6: Oh, Fred West and Rosemary West about as wicked as
Speaker 6: they come, as they were richterial killers during the nineteen
Speaker 6: seventies nineteen eighties. They were believed to have murdered at
Speaker 6: least eleven young females and possibly as many as thirty,
Speaker 6: including two of their own children.
Speaker 2: Incredible.
Speaker 6: They were motivated, as were these other serial killer couples
Speaker 6: covered in this book, by sexual desires, perverse sexual desires
Speaker 6: and having pleat control over their victims and torturing them
Speaker 6: and knowing that they could get away with something and
Speaker 6: fielding they had to upper hand on society at large,
Speaker 6: and unfortunately they did for a while there they would
Speaker 6: often target unaways and people looking for vert They would
Speaker 6: offer them lodging or working as a nanny for them.
Speaker 6: They had eight children the West between them, and on
Speaker 6: top of that, Rosemary was a part time prostitute during
Speaker 6: this time and some of those children were actually fathered
Speaker 6: by some of her clients.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 6: But on top of that, she and Fred West were
Speaker 6: incestuous with some of their own some of their children,
Speaker 6: some of their daughters. This was a sexual deviance that
Speaker 6: was passed down from the generations, as Rosemary's father was
Speaker 6: incestuous toward her and at least one of her children
Speaker 6: his granddaughters. So Fred West and Rosemary West were probably
Speaker 6: the most infamous as a couple amongst serial killers in
Speaker 6: the UK, and they finally were brought to justice June
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety four. They were charged with eleven murders. Fred
Speaker 6: was charged with eleven, Rosemary ten, and then shortly after
Speaker 6: Fred was charged with yet another murders, one of his
Speaker 6: victims was unearthed see in nineteen ninety five. January nineteen
Speaker 6: ninety five, Fred West hung himself in his jail before
Speaker 6: he could go to Trout, so he black Church, who
Speaker 6: faced up to what he'd done, taking what he felt
Speaker 6: was an easy way out. I guess sure.
Speaker 2: And they were quite elderly by the time they were
Speaker 2: the long arm of the law caught up with them,
Speaker 2: weren't they.
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, they were older than the typical serial killers,
Speaker 6: but still active enough to do what they were doing,
Speaker 6: to be able to lure these young people runaways others
Speaker 6: looking for a place to stay. They could have gone
Speaker 6: on indefinitely if the worlds hadn't finally begun to fall
Speaker 6: off and they were discovered their secret. I mean, they
Speaker 6: were burying these victims right on their own property, and
Speaker 6: it was just incredible that they were able to get
Speaker 6: away with this for really a long time, by the
Speaker 6: days of serial killers, spanning parts of two decades.
Speaker 2: And how were they finally apprehended for those people that
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 6: Oh, well, they were apprehended once one of their daughters
Speaker 6: that was missing presumed dead. Eventually Fred West confessed to
Speaker 6: killing this child and how he killed her, I mean
Speaker 6: they were. He killed her the same way he killed
Speaker 6: most of the others, murdering through torture and then mutilating
Speaker 6: after death. He chopped up most of the bodies and
Speaker 6: buried them on the property. So the authorities have been
Speaker 6: looking for this daughter, and once they were able to
Speaker 6: her remains, they found other children, other young adults, and
Speaker 6: you know, the whole thing broke wide open as they
Speaker 6: both again consessing and blaming one another. Rosemary and Fred,
Speaker 6: they are just figurable actions, and the police realized just
Speaker 6: you know what they had on their hands, serial killers
Speaker 6: of the worst kind, right, incredible. Rosemary was eventually convicted
Speaker 6: of killing ten and was sentenced to life in prison.
Speaker 2: Now, tell us about this is. This is one that
Speaker 2: I know that you're very intimate with, having we already
Speaker 2: spoke about the subject of sex slave murders, which was
Speaker 2: Gerald and Charlene Galago for those people that don't know,
Speaker 2: because this is these are not so familiar, these two
Speaker 2: Gerald and Charline Galego, but incredible, incredibly heinous criminals. These
Speaker 2: guys very much like Fred and Rosemary in terms of
Speaker 2: just despicable. Tell us about Gerald and Charlene Galago, the
Speaker 2: subject of your best selling book, Sex slave Murders.
Speaker 6: Yes, okay. Well Gerald and Chauveline Galago were a married
Speaker 6: couple living in California. They were serial killers that targeted
Speaker 6: mostly girls and young adults females in the late nineteen
Speaker 6: seventies and early nineteen eighties. They were fueled by sexa fantasies,
Speaker 6: whereas Gerald had visions of finding girls who would fulfill
Speaker 6: all his sexual desires, perverse and otherwise, and so he
Speaker 6: found a willing partner in Charlene, who served as the
Speaker 6: lure most of the times, enticing victims through offers of
Speaker 6: smoking marijuana or passing out flyers, and so once she
Speaker 6: could get them outside over to their van, Gerald was
Speaker 6: always their waiting with one of his many guns. When
Speaker 6: she forced them into the van and sexually assault, torture,
Speaker 6: murdered them, and then dumped them in various places, often
Speaker 6: in the desert or some other areas. That was hard
Speaker 6: for the authorities to back down, and similar to the West,
Speaker 6: the Galagos were able to keep this going for a
Speaker 6: while because either the victims their acts were considered runaways
Speaker 6: or potential runaways, or they were killing them in different
Speaker 6: states three states in fact, so that the authorities were
Speaker 6: never able to connect the dots up until they had
Speaker 6: murdered ten people, including one woman who was four months pregnant,
Speaker 6: so they were motivated. In addition to this, these sex
Speaker 6: day fantasies, they were playing off one another Gerald and
Speaker 6: Charlotte Galago in the sense that she was doing whatever
Speaker 6: she felt she had to do to hold on to him.
Speaker 6: Even though she grew up Charlene in a privileged life,
Speaker 6: she grew bored with that somehow and wanted to found
Speaker 6: herself more captivated by living on the wild side, finding
Speaker 6: the bad boy, so to speak, to be with. In
Speaker 6: Gerald's case, he wanted someone who would be there for
Speaker 6: him to thick and tin and allow him to carry
Speaker 6: out his sex stay fantasies, and he and participate in
Speaker 6: them as well, which she did, and she followed him
Speaker 6: blindly for a good will there all the way, in fact,
Speaker 6: until they were captured. Their last victims were college sweethearts
Speaker 6: who happened to be in the wrong face at the
Speaker 6: wrong time when they abducted them in Sacramento and soon
Speaker 6: after murdered the male and then took the female to
Speaker 6: an apartment, sexually assaulted her, and then murdered her and
Speaker 6: they were then on the run as fraternity brother who
Speaker 6: had of the male victim, Craig miller I, had managed
Speaker 6: to take down the license plate member of the car
Speaker 6: that they were forced into, and that led the authorities
Speaker 6: to discovering who was behind this abduction of the college
Speaker 6: sweet Arts, and ultimately they tracked them to Omaha, Nebraska,
Speaker 6: where they were captured in November nineteen eighty and at
Speaker 6: that point Charlene was her The whole that Gerald had
Speaker 6: had on her was released once she was out from
Speaker 6: under his authority, and she quickly cut a deal with
Speaker 6: the prosecutors to turn state's evidence for a reduced sentence right,
Speaker 6: and her sentence really called the public uproar, as she
Speaker 6: was given on the sixteen two thirds years for being
Speaker 6: an active participanting in ten murders. So it was I've
Speaker 6: talked to others about this, other people in law enforcement
Speaker 6: and other criminologists, and they find that unfathomable. You certainly
Speaker 6: could find it hard to imagine in this day and
Speaker 6: age that someone could participate in those many murders and
Speaker 6: only get less than seventeen years. Sure ours, But nevertheless,
Speaker 6: at the time the authorities felt that they would give
Speaker 6: her a pass an effect so that they could get
Speaker 6: the goods on Gerald as the main party that was responsible,
Speaker 6: the actual perpetrator of most of all of the murders.
Speaker 6: So he was sentenced to death in two states for
Speaker 6: his actions, and but he was never actually executed. He
Speaker 6: was able to keep the appeals going for nearly two
Speaker 6: decades before he died of cancer in prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really worked the system, didn't he.
Speaker 6: Yes, he worked it as well as anyone. And I'm
Speaker 6: sure he probably thought during his long time behind bars
Speaker 6: that he and reestimated his Oh I should say he
Speaker 6: thought his hole on Charlene was much stronger than it
Speaker 6: turned out to be.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 6: Oh, Fortunately for her, he didn't decide to go after
Speaker 6: her when he had this opportunity, Otherwise she would never
Speaker 6: get in to testify against him, and helped stop this
Speaker 6: madness that the two of them were golfing together.
Speaker 2: Yes. Absolutely. Now let's talk about Douglas Clark and Carol
Speaker 2: Mary Bundy. And what I found fascinating about this case
Speaker 2: is and this is in the early eighties, but that
Speaker 2: there's a connection to me.
Speaker 3: Hello, it is Ryan And I was on a flight
Speaker 3: the other day playing one of my favorite socials in
Speaker 3: slot games on Chumba Casino dot com. I looked over
Speaker 3: the person sitting next to me, and you know what
Speaker 3: they were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence,
Speaker 3: I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba
Speaker 3: Casino's home to hundreds of casino style games. You can
Speaker 3: play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet.
Speaker 3: So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to
Speaker 3: claim you're free. Welcome bonus, that's Chumbu Casino dot com
Speaker 3: and live the Chumba lain.
Speaker 4: Necessary d where lost in terms of conditions Plus to the.
Speaker 2: Hillside Strangler, Kenneth Bianchi and the Kenneth Byanky. Once he
Speaker 2: was arrested, he had a woman that was interested in
Speaker 2: helping him come up with an alibi. And both of
Speaker 2: these Hillside Strangler and this Douglas Clark, I guess because
Speaker 2: they've gotten away with crimes and they're you know, charismatic guys.
Speaker 2: Once they get behind bars, their imagination runs wild and
Speaker 2: they think they can pull off these ultimate scams to
Speaker 2: disprove their guilt. So tell tell us a little bit
Speaker 2: about Douglas Clark and Mary Bundy where they committed their
Speaker 2: crimes and some of the characteristics because necrophiliacs are not
Speaker 2: all these people are necrophiliacs, and then tell us about
Speaker 2: the Hillside Strangler connection afterwards.
Speaker 6: Place Okay, Well, Douglas Clark and Carol Mary Bundy were
Speaker 6: California serial killers. They were dubbed the Sunset Strip Killers.
Speaker 6: They did their dirty work in nineteen eighty target team
Speaker 6: most of the runaways and prostitutes in Hollywood, where they
Speaker 6: sexually assaulted them, tortured and murdered at least five and
Speaker 6: some authorities believed possibly ten times as many people were
Speaker 6: killed by these two similar of the Gallegos. They were
Speaker 6: fewed by dark sexual fantasies that included stabbing, strangulation, mutilation, shooting,
Speaker 6: and necophilia as you mentioned, and they were also into
Speaker 6: role playing. Carol Bundy had allegedly at times pretended to
Speaker 6: be the wife of former serial killer Ted Bundy Wow,
Speaker 6: which wasn't true, but I guess it made for the
Speaker 6: two of them, Carol Bundy and Douglas Clark. I guess
Speaker 6: that perhaps helped fuel their own dark life. Killers. So
Speaker 6: they were killers who were doing their thing in California,
Speaker 6: and they were arrested in early nineteen eighty three for
Speaker 6: these crimes after Bundy admitted to coworkers about her involvement
Speaker 6: in the murders, which included killing her ex lover. She
Speaker 6: was personally responsible for shooting the death her ex lover
Speaker 6: all within the same time frame, and so the two
Speaker 6: of them in their bond together bond in homicide was
Speaker 6: finally shot down once Carol broke down and began talking,
Speaker 6: and she eventually helped him to be convicted on six
Speaker 6: counts murder, sentenced to death for each of them, and
Speaker 6: he's on death row as a result of that. As
Speaker 6: far as the association with the Hillside strangler, the main association,
Speaker 6: it's not an actual association per se, but it's the
Speaker 6: fact that they were chilling the same types of people
Speaker 6: in the same location is what connects those two, right.
Speaker 6: They were following a similar pattern, Douglas Clark and Mary
Speaker 6: Carrol Bundy in the types of people they were going
Speaker 6: after and causing that type of attention in the Los
Speaker 6: Angeles area. That it was hot at the time, and
Speaker 6: they really had people looking over their shoulders as they were,
Speaker 6: you know, wondering what was going on and who was
Speaker 6: behind these killings, and you know, they would move on
Speaker 6: from runaways and prostitute to anyone they happened to be
Speaker 6: out there.
Speaker 2: That wasn't at trial. This was a This was a
Speaker 2: trial that the media attended. It was a even Peter
Speaker 2: Falk at that time, major Hollywood actor that was in Colombo.
Speaker 2: Peter Falk was interested in this trial. This Douglas Clark again,
Speaker 2: this charismatic con man. He thought he was so smart.
Speaker 2: He served as one of his own He served as
Speaker 2: his own attorney until he called the judge a gauntless worm,
Speaker 2: and so his lawyers that were assisting him at that
Speaker 2: time took over. So it was quite the What the
Speaker 2: judge referred to the testimony is an intimate tour of
Speaker 2: a sewer with all the witnesses and all the lives
Speaker 2: and the cons that this Douglas Clark was trying to
Speaker 2: come up excuse his murders. But tell us a little
Speaker 2: bit about the trial itself.
Speaker 6: Okay, Well, he had a four months trial and it
Speaker 6: was pretty high profile with these multiple counts of murder
Speaker 6: and victims ranking in age from fifteen to twenty four,
Speaker 6: I believe, and it did draw quite a few journalists
Speaker 6: and spectators at the time wanting to see whether or
Speaker 6: that's a deputy district attorney could actually convict Clark given
Speaker 6: his own confidence of how well he thought he would
Speaker 6: do representing himself initially, and fortunately the prosecutions expert witnesses
Speaker 6: were able to tie him into victims a number of
Speaker 6: the victims that have been sexually assaulted, but they weren't
Speaker 6: able to establish in some instances if the sexual assaultic
Speaker 6: occurred before or after the victims were killed, right, and
Speaker 6: they presented evidence from Clark himself regarding his fascination with necrophilia,
Speaker 6: so they were able to actually tap into his overconfidence
Speaker 6: in representing himself. They were able to exploit his weaknesses
Speaker 6: as an attorney, which obviously he wasn't and he had
Speaker 6: other quarter point attorneys that were his legal consultants, but
Speaker 6: he felt he was still advised, of course, but he
Speaker 6: still felt at the time that he was his best
Speaker 6: bet for getting through this. As you know, did he
Speaker 6: refer to the judge of the gutless worm, and he
Speaker 6: was made similar type comments throughout the trow But everything
Speaker 6: he did, everything he said, was ultimately used against him,
Speaker 6: and starting with his partnering crime prosecution's chief witness, Carol Bundy.
Speaker 6: She was given immunity to use. Immunity mean that her
Speaker 6: testimony cannot be used against her, but he didn't excuse
Speaker 6: her from the other evidence they had against her for
Speaker 6: her own crimes. But she testified that she was under
Speaker 6: his spell and he was murdering these women and forced
Speaker 6: her to cooperate and participate. So she attempted to put
Speaker 6: him in the worst light as possible, which is often
Speaker 6: what killers would do pair killers when they're in custody,
Speaker 6: They will do what they can to make the other
Speaker 6: person heavy and make themselves seem gullibum, almost like victims. Sure,
Speaker 6: and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But in this instance,
Speaker 6: the jury concurred with her views on Clark, in addition
Speaker 6: to the other evidence against him, and he was convicted
Speaker 6: in January nineteen eighty three of six counts of murder
Speaker 6: in one count of attempted murder. For being sentenced to death,
Speaker 6: he's still knowing California's death row at San Quentin, sure,
Speaker 6: waiting his day destiny.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you were talking about to the defense of Once
Speaker 2: these perpetrators are arrested, they start pointing fingers at each other,
Speaker 2: and of course every type of defense is tried. What's
Speaker 2: interesting is there are next subjects, Alvin and Judith Anne Neely.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what Judith ann and once she could not
Speaker 2: be considered a youth offender, then her plan b was
Speaker 2: battered women syndrome, and that of course she was helpless
Speaker 2: and forced to do Alvin Neely's bidding. So tell us
Speaker 2: about Alvin Neely and his partner Judith Anne.
Speaker 6: Okay Well, Alvin Neeley and Judith and Neelee were serial
Speaker 6: killers who went after victims in the early nineteen eighties
Speaker 6: in the United States the South. They were nicknamed Bonie
Speaker 6: and Claude after infamous nineteen thirties bandits Bunny and Clyde.
Speaker 6: They fancied themselves as the modern day Bunnie and Clyde.
Speaker 2: I suppose why Bonie and squad though more of bad
Speaker 2: not to the hillbilly aspect of it.
Speaker 6: Earth Well, I think just the fact that they were
Speaker 6: together as a pair able to commit their crimes and
Speaker 6: then move on get away with it. So I think
Speaker 6: they were looking at it in that respect comparing themselves,
Speaker 6: although it was a poor comparison really, as Bunny and
Speaker 6: Clyde were a lot different from them, and their motivations
Speaker 6: were different. In any event, they murdered two females and
Speaker 6: tried to kill them man, but he survived the attack, although,
Speaker 6: as with some of the other serial killer couples, the
Speaker 6: authorities felt that it was possible that there were many
Speaker 6: other victims. That's one of the things with serial killers,
Speaker 6: solo killers, and couples or groups is that they can
Speaker 6: often move from place to place, committing crimes and killing people,
Speaker 6: and authorities can never be certain that the crimes they
Speaker 6: know about are the only ones that were committed. Many
Speaker 6: times the perpetrators will embellish their activities and the number
Speaker 6: of people they killed, but in many other instances they
Speaker 6: have killed more people than they're willing to admit for
Speaker 6: various reasons. Some have to do with self preservation, with
Speaker 6: the death penalty in various states, and other means that
Speaker 6: could only do that caused them more harm than good.
Speaker 6: So in this instance they were known for sure to
Speaker 6: have murdered two females, the Kneeles, and but they were
Speaker 6: brutally killed at that one with a thirteen year old girl,
Speaker 6: she was subducted, repeatedly raped, beaten, and injected with drain
Speaker 6: cleaner amongst other atrocities, with Judas Neee being directly involved
Speaker 6: in this. In fact, she was the one who injected
Speaker 6: the helpless young girl with this drain cleaner, and she
Speaker 6: also was the one that shot a male who was
Speaker 6: the fiance of a female that they abducted and sexually
Speaker 6: assaulted murdered. So these crimes happened in Georgia and they
Speaker 6: were able to finally get the goods on both of them.
Speaker 6: And in this case it was Alvin Needley who pled
Speaker 6: guilty to aggravate it an assault and murder in Georgia
Speaker 6: to try to escape the death penalty himself, so he
Speaker 6: perceives a life sentence and Judith she was convicted and
Speaker 6: sentenced to death as well for murdering a thirteen year
Speaker 6: old and in the process became the youngest female to
Speaker 6: be put on depth prow in the United States.
Speaker 2: Yeah. What we didn't mention too is that they had
Speaker 2: met when she was fifteen and he was at least
Speaker 2: they say there were different reports, maybe fourteen years older. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so there was a dynamic there that you know, I
Speaker 2: don't know. Of course, I don't believe she was a
Speaker 2: battered woman, but there was some credence to that based
Speaker 2: on some of the things that it was a reasonable
Speaker 2: defense in terms of that she was much younger and
Speaker 2: maybe more vulnerable and suggestible. But of course it didn't
Speaker 2: work at court by the trial. But she did do that,
Speaker 2: and that she did have that attempt because she tried
Speaker 2: to be considered a youthful offender, which would have completely
Speaker 2: changed everything in this case.
Speaker 6: Yes, well, there may be some seem to be said
Speaker 6: for her being conned in the sense into getting involved
Speaker 6: with Alvin at such a young age. For her, she
Speaker 6: was trying to escape her own problems at home and
Speaker 6: thought she found a good escape route in him. But
Speaker 6: it turned out to be a nightmare for her. But
Speaker 6: that notwithstanding, she still participated willingly in these crimes. She
Speaker 6: wasn't as threatened her course, I don't feel that some
Speaker 6: of the other female partners in the seria among serial
Speaker 6: killer couples, But she still had she had the homicidal
Speaker 6: instincts in her that made her willing to participate in
Speaker 6: these murders. One of them actually took place in Alabama. Uh.
Speaker 6: One of the killings another end Georgia. It was I
Speaker 6: believe in Alabama that near these Judith Near These death
Speaker 6: sentence was commuted to life in prison, even though that
Speaker 6: sparked outraged in the community because no one wanted to
Speaker 6: see her any possibility that she could get out of prison.
Speaker 6: But she had also received the life sentence in the
Speaker 6: other state a Georgia, so she ah the fact that
Speaker 6: she had the death sentence commuted in Alabama, she there
Speaker 6: was still steps made to make sure that she wouldn't
Speaker 6: become eligible for parole and the getting out. I mean,
Speaker 6: they were already prepared to ship her to Georgia if necessary,
Speaker 6: to make sure that she never saw the light of
Speaker 6: day again. Alvin Easy died in prison, by the way,
Speaker 6: at the age of fifty two, so he ran out
Speaker 6: of time. Even though I personally feel that killers should
Speaker 6: I'd like to see them there to be ninety nine
Speaker 6: years old in prison so that they can I think
Speaker 6: dying is too easy a good way out for them
Speaker 6: because it's just allowed them to escape these hideous crimes
Speaker 6: that they've committed. And prison life is very difficult. Of
Speaker 6: anyone who's gone to prison. Fortunately I'm not amongst those,
Speaker 6: but I've spoken to prisoners and a that's a tough life,
Speaker 6: so it's good when they can spend the rest of
Speaker 6: their natural life in prison and can stay there for decades,
Speaker 6: think about these terrible things they've done and hurt other people.
Speaker 2: Well, I agree with you, Barry, because what we're going
Speaker 2: to do is segue instead of going into Alton Coleman
Speaker 2: and Deborah Denise Brown and James Barry Marlow and Cynthia Kaufman.
Speaker 2: We're going to go because the parallels between the Alvin
Speaker 2: Neely and Judithan case in terms of battered women syndrome
Speaker 2: in terms of serial killers. We just talked about how
Speaker 2: they made every assurance or tried to make every assurance
Speaker 2: that this woman would never get out on parole. Because
Speaker 2: a lot of people, that's why laws were enacted. Not
Speaker 2: everybody believes in the death penalty, and I do not
Speaker 2: believe in the death plone just because of errors. And
Speaker 2: I do believe that if you're going to spend fifty
Speaker 2: years or forty years in prison, I think that should
Speaker 2: be enough. I don't know anybody that would could say, oh,
Speaker 2: that that's that's that's a cakewalk. Forty years sitting in
Speaker 2: a cell like an animal. So I think that's got
Speaker 2: to be sufficient, you know. And yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 2: I hope they live long and get to live and
Speaker 2: relive what they did, and hopefully, you know, establish some
Speaker 2: conscience at some point, which I really doubt. But let's
Speaker 2: talk about Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamalka. Now, this is
Speaker 2: a case that a lot of Americans don't know so
Speaker 2: much about, and I hate to say it, Canadians don't
Speaker 2: know either. But Paul Bernardo and Carla Jamalka. And what's
Speaker 2: interesting about Carla Hamalka, and when you can tell, we
Speaker 2: can explain, is that this woman is free, she is married,
Speaker 2: she has a child, she has a counseling degree, and
Speaker 2: she's living in France as far as I know. And
Speaker 2: it's the only, as far as I know, the only
Speaker 2: serial killer walking around, multiple serial killer, let's say, a
Speaker 2: serial killer being freed after twelve years in Canada. So
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit, Paul, about Paul Bernardo and
Speaker 2: Carla Hamalka and the features of their despicable crimes.
Speaker 6: Okay, Well, Paul Bernardo and Carlo Homoka were Canadian serial killers,
Speaker 6: and they were they certainly represent the worst of Canadians.
Speaker 6: There's no question about that. Their crimes were also sexually motivated,
Speaker 6: as with the other killer couples covered in this book,
Speaker 6: and their crimes cost the lives of at least three
Speaker 6: teenage girls during the early nineteen nineties, and included amongst
Speaker 6: the victims with Carlo's own younger sister.
Speaker 2: Incredible.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but I should backtrack for a moment to say
Speaker 6: that Paul Bernardo, before he ever laid eyes on Carla,
Speaker 6: was a serial rapist right known as the Scarborough Rapist,
Speaker 6: had already raped a number of people around the Scarborough
Speaker 6: area of Toronto before he met Carla, and then once
Speaker 6: he met her, they quickly bonded and she knew about
Speaker 6: his previous criminal activity and essentially gave her blessing to it,
Speaker 6: as she not only allowed him to or was aware
Speaker 6: that he continued to do this and did nothing about it.
Speaker 6: But then the two of them began participating in sexual
Speaker 6: assaults together and videotaping them, and one of those victims
Speaker 6: was Carlo's own sister, whom she had given essentially to
Speaker 6: Paul Bernardo as a Christmas gift in nineteen ninety. Carlo
Speaker 6: considered her sister's virginity a gift for Bernardo to do
Speaker 6: with as he pleased, and what he did was raped
Speaker 6: her after the two of them dragged the sister and
Speaker 6: then she ended up dying choking on her own vomit.
Speaker 6: And at the time, the authorities believed the convincing story
Speaker 6: that Bernardo and Homoka told them that the girl that
Speaker 6: just had too much to drink and died as a
Speaker 6: result of that, having nothing to do with them. The
Speaker 6: authorities bought into that for a while they were the two.
Speaker 6: One thing that Bernardo and Smoka had in common with
Speaker 6: the Galagos is they were able to weave their way
Speaker 6: in and out of trouble when it presented itself for goodwill.
Speaker 6: Ato had been questioned by the police from time to
Speaker 6: time regarding these rapes, but he was always able to
Speaker 6: smooth talk his way out of it and dropped as
Speaker 6: a suspect. In one instance, a detective felt that given
Speaker 6: his intelligence and poise, it's impossible that he could be
Speaker 6: discribed borough rapists, and unfortunately, many other victims fell prey
Speaker 6: to him as a result of this type of kind
Speaker 6: job he was able to pull on the authorities. The
Speaker 6: Carla and Paul went on to sexually assault, rape, abduct,
Speaker 6: and videotape and murder two other young women that we're
Speaker 6: aware of and they were finally brought to justice only
Speaker 6: after Carla had been the victim of spouse abuse. They
Speaker 6: were married this time, so he was subject to hitting
Speaker 6: her when the move suited him, and the authorities were
Speaker 6: aware of this, and eventually, between that and the authorities
Speaker 6: beginning to close in on both of them, they were
Speaker 6: arrested and the police realized that probably not Gard. The
Speaker 6: evidence finally began to put the pieces together that he
Speaker 6: was actually the Scarborough rapist, but they didn't realize, you know,
Speaker 6: just how far reaching his sexual de property was until
Speaker 6: Carla began to talk. Once she had cut a deal
Speaker 6: with the authorities that the prosecution that would give her
Speaker 6: twelve years in prison for manslaughter in cooperation for testifying
Speaker 6: against Bernardo. And the thing about this deal is that
Speaker 6: when the prosecution agreed to this, they weren't privy to
Speaker 6: the contents of the videotapes that the two of them
Speaker 6: were making, showing them not only brutally sexually assaulting victims,
Speaker 6: but the videotapes clearly showed as much as active participant
Speaker 6: as Paul Bernardo. So they freely admit that they aired
Speaker 6: their the authorities, and because they didn't have that at
Speaker 6: their disposal, and if they had, they never would have
Speaker 6: made the deal, the sweetheart deal for her, but it
Speaker 6: was too late to do anything about it. They'd tried to,
Speaker 6: but Dill was set in stone, basically, and so she
Speaker 6: served her twelve years and was released. She did testify
Speaker 6: against him, Bernardo, and he was convicted of multiple murders
Speaker 6: and multiple sexual assaults, and he was designated as a
Speaker 6: dangerous offender, which meant a longer stay in prison in
Speaker 6: order to protect the public and most likely will be
Speaker 6: there for the rest of his days. But in her case, Carla,
Speaker 6: as you noted, she went on to marry someone else
Speaker 6: after she had divorced Bernardo sometime earlier, and I had
Speaker 6: a child, and I believe she moved moved to the
Speaker 6: West Indies if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 2: But well, you could be right, you could be right.
Speaker 2: I know she moved out of Canada.
Speaker 6: So yes, I think she moved to the West Indies
Speaker 6: to get away from other notoriety.
Speaker 2: Sure, I know they.
Speaker 6: Made a movie I think in two thousand and six
Speaker 6: called Carla was about two infamous Canadian serial killers, but
Speaker 6: most of it was so from Carla's perspective, and.
Speaker 2: So it was discredited.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, questionable whether or not you've got the true story.
Speaker 6: I certainly didn't portray her in the light that she
Speaker 6: should have been. She was very much liked Charlene Gallego,
Speaker 6: and that she participated in these really terrible crimes. I mean,
Speaker 6: killing your own sister like that. I can't get any
Speaker 6: worse than that. But she was, like Charlene, able to
Speaker 6: plea bargain to a very low sentence relative to the crimes,
Speaker 6: and was able to essentially get away with murder. I
Speaker 6: mean twelve years. This better than nothing at all, I realized,
Speaker 6: But not you know, in relation to killing these people,
Speaker 6: being knowledgeable of raping other women and doing nothing to
Speaker 6: stop it or report it to the authorities.
Speaker 2: Well, she wasn't a battered woman, since she wasn't a
Speaker 2: battered woman, and she was a willing participant, And she
Speaker 2: was like a couple of these women where she was
Speaker 2: worried that her husband might stray because he was after
Speaker 2: younger and younger women, and there was a jealousy thing,
Speaker 2: and so there is talk of that. You know, even
Speaker 2: Bernardo said, you know, I went out and she killed.
Speaker 2: So not to believe Paul Bernardo, I don't think he's
Speaker 2: got any credibility at all. But she is at least
Speaker 2: as equally as evil as he is. And there's almost
Speaker 2: no doubt about that anybody that reads anything about those
Speaker 2: videotapes itself or the testimony. She's just self serving and
Speaker 2: she was not a victim. She just woke up very
Speaker 2: much like Charlie and Gallego and said, you know what,
Speaker 2: there's people around me that will support me, and I'll
Speaker 2: get a good lawyer, and I'll get a good doctor,
Speaker 2: and somebody's going to go down, but it's not going
Speaker 2: to be me, so.
Speaker 6: Right, Yes, I know, most male female serial killer teams
Speaker 6: are off in strong weak killer pairs.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: In other words, the male partners typically the aggressor the
Speaker 6: female partners often the passive lure and willing partner in
Speaker 6: the serial killings. However, there are instances where the female
Speaker 6: partner and the serial killer tandem I can be just
Speaker 6: as Letho Rack and Carla is a good example in
Speaker 6: Judith Needley as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well that's hence why they've got the convictions too.
Speaker 2: So all these serial killer couples that you have nine
Speaker 2: in total that you've featured, we didn't get able to
Speaker 2: discuss Alton Coleman and Deborah Denise Brown and James Gregory
Speaker 2: Marlow and Cynthia Kaufman, very interesting cases. I hadn't heard
Speaker 2: of both of those, but I want to say also,
Speaker 2: but I say.
Speaker 6: One thing about Alton Coleman and Denise Deborah Brown. Sure, Okay,
Speaker 6: I just wanted to say they were actually African American
Speaker 6: serial killers. So they were the only African American serial
Speaker 6: killer team male female record that I'm aware of, so
Speaker 6: that gave them their own distinction. And uh, Alton Coleman
Speaker 6: actually went on to be on FBI ten more wanted
Speaker 6: fugitive lists. They were so eager to get him, so
Speaker 6: they were pretty ruthless as a couple.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely very interesting too, James Gregory Marlow and Cynthia
Speaker 2: Kaufman too. We're gonna have to leave it at that.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you, is are these are both
Speaker 2: out in ebook and in paperback as well?
Speaker 6: And well they're right now and they're in ebook, but
Speaker 6: they're in kind Nook and iTunes, but they're going to
Speaker 6: be in paperback and audio in the next few weeks.
Speaker 2: Great. Great, Yeah, I know you've been doing really well
Speaker 2: the ebooks have been taken off. I mean the true
Speaker 2: crime readers have adopted the book. I just got a
Speaker 2: Cobol reader myself, so that's going to be great. Be
Speaker 2: able to travel and read some books, and that's great.
Speaker 2: I want to thank you very much Barry for coming
Speaker 2: back on and talking about serial killer couples. And it's
Speaker 2: a great book and fascinating features on these incredible killers.
Speaker 2: Some of them we don't know so well, but thanks
Speaker 2: to your book, we're going to get very, very familiar
Speaker 2: with these most despicable serial killer couples. So thank you
Speaker 2: very much Barry for coming on the program and talking
Speaker 2: about serial killer couples.
Speaker 6: It's been my pleasure. Dan. I hope that I can
Speaker 6: come back in a few months when my next book,
Speaker 6: Masters of True Crime, Chilling Stories of Murdering and macarp
Speaker 6: comes out. I'm the editor, but it's got a group
Speaker 6: of best selling true crime writers like Harold Scheckner and
Speaker 6: Captain then Burrow Bear.
Speaker 2: Great, I'll be there and.
Speaker 6: Get seventeen great stories that you want to talk about
Speaker 6: for your listeners.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up too, because I had
Speaker 2: forgotten to mention that, and I wanted to mention that too,
Speaker 2: that that's going to be great Masters of True Crime?
Speaker 2: Is it called, and it's going to be out and
Speaker 2: it's going to be out in the summer, is it?
Speaker 6: Yes? In July?
Speaker 2: Oh that's great. No, well absolutely, Please remind me if
Speaker 2: I get a little if I don't talk to you
Speaker 2: in say June, but please give me a call so
Speaker 2: that we can have a special program about the release
Speaker 2: of that. I'm very excited about it because a few
Speaker 2: of these authors are you know, they're huge. And Catherine
Speaker 2: Ramselana hasn't been on the program, and Scheckter hasn't been on.
Speaker 2: But these guys, these people have written some great, great books.
Speaker 2: Burro Bear, of course he's a legend. And and you've
Speaker 2: edited this book, so it's it comes from a real
Speaker 2: true crime pedigree, and I'm very excited to be able
Speaker 2: to read it, and of course it'll be amazing program
Speaker 2: to have for our audience and talk about Masters of
Speaker 2: True Crime in the summer. Very good and thank you
Speaker 2: very much Barry for coming on the program. And you
Speaker 2: have yourself a good night for people listening to the program.
Speaker 2: You've been listening to our Berry Flowers with his new
Speaker 2: book Serial Killer Couples. So thank you very much, Barry,
Speaker 2: have a good night and thank you Barry.
Speaker 3: Talk to me.
Speaker 2: Bye bye.