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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday,

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April sixth, twenty twenty six, and I'm the host of

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the show, Doctor Kara Santa Maria, and as always, I

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want to thank those of you who make Talk Nerdy

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possible before we get to the meat of the show.

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As I say every week, Talk Nerdyism will always be

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one hundred percent free to download, and the way that

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support on an episodic basis, all you've got to do

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is visit patreon dot com. That's p A t R

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e o N dot com slash Talk Nerdy. This week's

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top page include Chuck Blell, David J. E. Smith, Daniel Lang,

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Mary Neva, Will Defrayin, David Compton, Brian Holden, Gabo, Jay

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Ulrica Hagman, Pasqually Gilati and Joe Wilkinson. Thank you all

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so so very much. All right, let's dive into it.

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So this week I had the opportunity to have just

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a wonderful and illuminating chat with doctor Candace Watt Smith.

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She's a professor of political science at Duke University and

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she's written several really interesting books and co written them.

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She wrote The History of Politics and Race in America

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from nineteen sixty eight to the present. She co wrote

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Racial Stasis and also Stay Woke, and recently she wrote

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or I Guess. The most recent before this book, she

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wrote Sorry, Black Mosaic, The Politics of Black pan ethnic Diversity,

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which we will talk about a little bit on the show.

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But she has a new book out. It's called Black Evidence,

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A History and a Warning. And I think there's kind

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of a great top line right as you dive into

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the book. It says, a fierce expose of American resistance

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to believing black people and it's devastating effects throughout history.

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That is what we're going to get into today. So,

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without any further ado, here she is doctor Candace Watt Smith. Well, Candace,

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thank you so much for joining me today.

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Speaker 2: It is a pleasure to be with you.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about your new book, Black Evidence,

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A History and a Warning. And before we get into

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that history and that warning, I, as I often do,

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would like to ask you a little bit more just

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about yourself, about your career about what brought you to

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this book. So you're a professor of political science at Duke.

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But I'm curious, did you study polyci all the way

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up through? Did you do any like African American studies

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or other kind of degree paths and then combine that

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multidisciplinary view. How did you get to that place?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's probably a series of non decisions. So

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I started undergrad as a first GIN student, and I

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think I accidentally took a bunch of policide classes and

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then you're like, oh, I guess I should do this.

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And along the way I studied international comparative studies in

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Arabic and then I learned that I was Someone told

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me that I was good at poly size. So I

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just kept going and I stayed in State. I mean,

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I've been to other departments. I've been to departments of

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public policy, African American studies, Black studies.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to think, are there others? You know?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 3: So those and mostly because you know, faculty, professors get

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to study what they want, and some people will just

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kind of focus on one issue, one question and dive

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deeply on that question for their whole career. I just

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don't have the attention span for that. So most of

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the research that I do are around questions of inequality.

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But I mostly just kind of choose to go in

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directions that interest me at the moment, things that stand

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out to me, contradictions that keep arising that kind of

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not me, and polyci allows me to do that.

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Speaker 1: I love that. And I mean when we think about

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political science, it is sort of a broad brush like,

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how would we even I mean, gosh, I think to

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somebody who maybe is not very academic or who never

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took any policide courses, how would you define poly side?

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Because it can kind of been things like public policy,

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even international relations. There's some sociology involved, maybe even some

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economics and government. Like what kind of aspect of political side? Well,

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I know you just said you jump around a lot,

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but kind of what components of political science I guess

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attracted you and where within that world do you tend

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to operate?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mostly focus on individual behavior and identity and

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how that intersects with people's political preferences. I'm mostly interested

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in why people have such a high tolerance for inequality,

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and so I spend a lot of time in that space. So,

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like you said, political science has lots of different components, philosophy,

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international relations, comparative analysis across governments and institutions. And then

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many of us study kind of individual behavior and identity.

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And that's where I sit, mostly because people are just

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so weird. And for a long time I said, you know,

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make this joke like, oh, as long as people are

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acting crazy, I'll have a job. But now I'm just

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I'm like, everyone just sit down and be quiet, Okay

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if I don't have a job studying you know, the

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rise of inequality and the rise of white nationalism and

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Christian nationalism. And I wish, I wish I didn't have

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to study those things. I wish none of us did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know previously you you co authored two books,

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Stay Woken, Racial Stasis, but you also authored Black Mosaic,

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The Politics of Black pan Ethnic Diversity. And you know,

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it's interesting I'm reading a little bit about it, this

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kind of not just intersectionality, but diversity within sort of

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Black America. I have one of my dearest friends. I

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remember her always correcting people when they call her African

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American because she's Afro Caribbean. She was born in Panama,

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and she's like I live here now, but I'm not

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African American, and so she obviously preferred not obviously, but

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she prefers the term black. I found myself using the

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term black more often as an umbrella term so as

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not to kind of misidentify somebody. But I love this

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idea of like, obviously we should be having conversations about

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diversity within quote unquote racial groups. I mean, whatever that

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even means. And I'm curious kind of what brought you

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you wrote this book over a decade ago, what brought

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you to Black Mosaic? And then maybe the difference between

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between this new book Black Evidence, because there's a lot

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of time in between the two.

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Speaker 3: So Black most it came out of my dissertation work

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and some of my undergrad work. I uh, and more

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or less from North Carolina and where I lived, North Carolina,

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the South for most of its history. I think people

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would kind would would have characterized the demographics as black

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and white and then maybe a little something else, you know.

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And when I came to college, I've started meeting all

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these black people that were not from the States, or

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that their parents weren't from the States. And I remember

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this one woman saying to me like, oh, wait, where

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are you from? And then you ask where are you

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from from? And so I'm from North Carolina. My parents

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are from Chicago, their people are from Mississippi. And she said, Oh,

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it's really fascinating that you've accomplished all that you have

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and you're like just an American, You're just an American

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black person. And her idea was like black immigrants are exceptional,

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or that my achievements must have been from a particular culture,

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and she just could not have imagined that, you know,

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that my family were many generations American, and so that

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was one of those moments where you're like, oh, this

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is there's a whole thing going on here. And so

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that's how I ended up writing Black Mosaic was from

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that conversation. And over the years we've heard more and

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more about, you know, when you go to Harvard and

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Princeton and Yale that when you walk on campus and

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you meet the black students there, they are largely of

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immigrant stock, that their parents are immigrants or that they're immigrants,

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and so you know, there's all these questions about why

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is that and what's going on? And so those kinds

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of questions those you know, like oh, that's interesting. What's

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happening here? What are the dynamics here? Interest me in?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 3: You know, people are looking at, you know, the twenty

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twenty four election and they're saying, well, why did so

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many black men in particular vote for Trump? And that

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I think that question actually tells us more about the

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question asker than about black folks, which the question asker

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is assuming that black folks should behave a certain way,

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should think a certain way, and should have a certain

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set of priorities, when in fact, the demographics that kind

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of characteristics of black folks have changed significantly over the

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past twenty thirty forty years. And if we don't keep

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up with the complexity of any group. I mean, same

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with Latinos, right, Oh, why did so many Latinos vote

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for Trump?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 3: Who are you talking about? Which groups are you talking about?

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We have this kind of very flat way of talking

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about these groups, and then we get surprised when it

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turns out that there is more to any particular group

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than anyone assumed in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's such a tough thing

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when we think about assumptions about individuals who are always

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obviously intersectional and who always have different life experiences, different priorities.

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I remember kind of having an insight into this early

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on in my career as a public science communicator when

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I went to a women's psychom like symposium, and you know,

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one of the first things that was said was kind

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of like, we are not monolithic. We're not going to

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agree about everything just by virtue of our gender. And

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at the same time, you know, I believe, and I'm

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curious your take on this, that there is some validity

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to the I guess maybe concern or the surprise when

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individuals vote for people who appear to fundamentally I guess

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the right word would be hmm. I'm struggling with the

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right word here, who fundamentally deny their existence and their value,

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you know what I mean? Like, like it is I

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think of somewhat valid question to say, like why would

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black men vote for Trump? Or like why would women

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vote for Trump? Because Trump is racist, He is a

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white supremacist, he is a misogynist.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmm. But he's also anti immigrant, and so are

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some black people. And he's also he's anti black, and

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so are some women. And he's also you know, so.

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Speaker 1: There is a priority exactly right, Yeah, Oh, it's it's

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it's fascinating. But of course, now kind of moving a

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decade later, I mean, obviously that's like more relevant than ever,

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but even I would say, maybe I shouldn't say more relevant,

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but incredibly prescient and apropos of our time? Is black

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evidence a history and a warning because of course what

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we're talking about here the idea of black evidence, of

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black truth, of black existence, of black voices, and the

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cultural tendency, the civic tendency, the policy and government tendency,

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but even the personal tendency to deny black existence to say, no,

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I know what is really happening here. I don't actually

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need to listen to your experience to understand that is

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so pervasive in our culture.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And you know, when I just was having a

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conversation with my friend Blair about just watching the twenty

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twenty protests after George Floyd's murder, I was like, why

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are people so up in arms?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 3: This is not anything new.

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Speaker 1: Right, this is how does that at a point?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, I'm you know, I am at a loss

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for how on some level I'm at a loss for

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an understanding of why we cannot get our minds around

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the fact that black people have been saying that this

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is a real possibility every day, all of the time.

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And I study. One of the other things that I

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study is policy, and there's a there's a theory in

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policy that says that policy shapes politics, and it shapes

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our behavior, and it shapes what we think, and we

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tend to historically believe and trust our policymakers. So if

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a policymaker makes a policy that says people in prison

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can't vote over time, people say, oh, okay, yeah, that

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makes sense, like a person, you know, they're doing their time,

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they get these rights revoked.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense.

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Speaker 1: I mean it does.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense, but we've made it make sense.

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And so just upon reflection of our history, it's like, oh, well,

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what are the policies that would have shaped these habits

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of disbelief, of dismissal, of evasion, of gas lighting. That's

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the only thing that can help me make sense is

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that we just have a habit of ignoring the insights

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that our fellow citizens give to us on a regular basis.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of like I think about the way,

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you know, as a psychologist, I guess I approach this,

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you know, through obviously the lens and the perspective of

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of of my training and my area of interest, and

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and it kind of makes you wonder, how do human

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beings choose which voices to say, well, that's an authority

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on this issue, that is somebody who I do believe,

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versus oh, that's anecdotal, or that is an exception to

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the rule, or that's weak evidence, or that you know,

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story there is is not as valid. And it does

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seem to be the case that phenomenal logic data right.

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I did a dissertation was a was a existential hermeneutic

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phenomenological exploration of medical aid and dying, where I interview

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people who are choosing to die with medical aid, and

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I really dug deep into their personal experience and tried

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to do what I could to see their choices through

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their eyes and to strip away as much bias as

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I could. Or actually I didn't strip it away. I

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identified it, highlighted it, and became aware of the bias

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that was present. And that's a really interesting practice that

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I had never done before my dissertation, and it gave

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me a lot of insight into the fact that we

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just don't do that very often. In society, we don't

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look at individual experience as a valid form of evidence.

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Speaker 3: I think that's true, and for some people more than

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other people. So to your point that we have stereotypes

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and ideas about who is a figure of authority, who

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is likely to tell the truth, whose testimonies are worthy

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of considering, and vice versa, I think it's really fascinating

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this work that you did. It was also probably really

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hard for you to do it, right. I mean, it's

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hard to listen. It's hard to to get into someone

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else's shoes and say, oh, I see where you're coming from.

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And it's especially hard if that the person that you are,

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the person's testimony who you know you're listening to, implicates

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you or implicates your group in some shapewear or form,

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and that makes it even more difficult. And so I'm not,

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you know, trying to get anyone off the hook here,

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But what I am noting here is that I'm not

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saying that it's easy to hear black folks say here

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the reasons why we have why we have a democracy

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in crisis, that these are the things that we've done

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to ourselves and each other, and you've earned these privileges

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because of those things. That's hard to hear, but it,

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you know, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't listen for it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think I think you make an

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important point here that bears digging into a little bit more,

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which is sort of like the how do I even

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word this? The two sides of the perspective mirror. So

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you've got the person who is making the determinations, who

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is thinking, and you've got the person whose experience is

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being shared. And we live in a culture that, even

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though demographically is not necessarily white majority, at least in

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many you know, parts of the country, it from a

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power perspective. It's a white supremacist, white majority culture. And

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you know what I'm cure about is that sort of

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experience of the other, the experience of the how do

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I put myself in somebody's shoes if I don't have

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their lived experience? Like I am a white American CIS woman.

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I'm Puerto Rican. That's my ethnicity, but my race, you know,

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I'm putting in air quotes, but that is how we

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often define demographics on census data. I work in a hospital,

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you know, we race and ethnicity. My race is white.

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I present as white. That affords me all the privileges

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that come with my with my white skin. I do

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not know what it is like to be black in

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America except by talking to my black friends and colleagues

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and reading books and having conversations. You know, I cannot

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exist as a black person in America, but I can

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listen to black experience. And my concern is that very often,

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as you mentioned before, this is the point that I

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want to dig deeper into when I talk to, you know,

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a black American and they say to me, your whiteness

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is contributing to this problem. It is my role to

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sit with that, to figure out how I feel about that,

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and to continue on in spite of that, maybe because

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of that, to reckon with my own racial identity development,

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see where I am in that process, and to integrate it.

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And so that's a big part of the work that

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I try to do in you know, anti racist conversation

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and anti racist identity. But for a lot of people,

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their immediate reaction is defensiveness, and so how like do

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you think that is really the crux and at the

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core of why black lines are so often minimized and

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undermined is that because the people in a position of power,

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they hear, oh it's my fault, Well, f you, I'm

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not going to accept that.

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Speaker 3: I think it's multi dimensional. I think there is some

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of that. It is hard to hear. You know, there's

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these you know, we're having a conversation about meritocracy. Nobody

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who has gotten their college degree from a fancy college

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wants to believe that they didn't deserve that degree, or

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that something else other than their own hard work got

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them into their you know, their college.

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Speaker 2: As an example.

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Speaker 3: So so you know, if you're hearing things that say

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to you that turns out that the story that you've

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been telling yourself is a lie. I mean, that's that's

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hard to hear. But I do think that there's also

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on the other side is that there's just a habit.

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There are certain things that we do that we don't

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even think about the when we're doing them, someone starts

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singing the or says the pledge of allegiance. Your hand

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goes straight to your heart. It's not even a thought,

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you just do it. There are certain you see a

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red light, you stop. You know, there are all these

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kinds of everyday habits that we have built over the

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course of our lifetime, over the course of history. And

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I think this is one of them. That you see

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a group of folks that, I mean, can give you

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a lot of inconvenient truths. And we have habits, and

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I say we Americans generally speaking of dismissing some groups readily,

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but I would say almost by habit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and like it, I guess we can't really ignore

348
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that there is a intentionality, a nefarious hand, his historical

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agenda that's been very policy driven behind some of those habits,

350
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right that like they're reenforced because somebody and many people

351
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want them to be, But that doesn't necessarily mean that

352
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in that moment, it's part of the calculus at all.

353
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I think that's why you have this sort of new

354
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group of quote anti woke, very often sort of manna

355
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sphere white men who are overtly racist and overtly misogynistic,

356
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trying to sort of minimize the argument of historic disenfranchisement,

357
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trying to minimize the argument of people living in in

358
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you know, certain parts of cities today, people you know,

359
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experiencing systemic racism, systemic disenfranchisement. This is the culmination of

360
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these historical wrongs. You have these sort of loud, outspoken

361
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people who are basically saying like, Nope, shit was hard

362
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in the past for everybody, get over it. We're all

363
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kind of in in egalitarian society now. And if you're

364
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struggling to get into college, that's your own fault. It

365
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has nothing to do with where you grew up or

366
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what you look like.

367
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's exactly right. So but even in this case,

368
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we have a policy that now makes the kinds of

369
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behaviors to exclude, okay, and that you know, attitudes will

370
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justify your behavior. So, you know, I think sometimes about

371
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you know, like, okay, we had slavery in the United States,

372
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which was a really horrific era, and there's a lot

373
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of things that we know that, I mean, just the abuse,

374
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the violence, the terror. And I thought to myself, like,

375
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how that is not like a thing that people are

376
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born They don't wake up, you know, they're not born

377
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into wanting to abuse other people, and not in that

378
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kind of gruesome way. And in writing this book, what

379
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I learned is that there was a policy that said,

380
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you know, white folks or soon to be white folks,

381
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you all don't understand that this system of slavery that

382
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we're having is for profit driven motives, and you all

383
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do not know how to be good masters. And so

384
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we are going to make a policy that not only

385
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constrains the behavior and movement of enslaved Africans, but it

386
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will also dictate to you what your behavior should be in.

387
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Speaker 2: Via those people.

388
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Speaker 3: So if you don't keep your enslaved person under control,

389
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we will punish you. Right and over time that becomes

390
00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:14,359
you know, you're doing it because the policy says to

391
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,680
do it, but now you have to have a series

392
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,400
of attitudes that justifies your behavior, and then that can

393
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go on and on all by itself. I think it's

394
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,000
similar to what we're seeing now. We have a president

395
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that comes in and says that DEI policies are illegal,

396
00:27:33,599 --> 00:27:39,359
discriminatory policies, which justifies a behavior to I don't know,

397
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:47,759
fire three hundred thousand black women, and now you have

398
00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:51,240
to have an attitude that justifies this. They didn't deserve

399
00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:51,759
it in the.

400
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: First place, right, right. It's this sort of post talk

401
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:07,400
that happens once you are deep in something that you

402
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,440
don't even realize is happening as it's happening. And I think,

403
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,920
what's so kind of, you know, it's it's Nuremberg, right,

404
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,519
It's like I was just doing what I was told. Uh,

405
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:28,759
it's It's such a perfect example of the cognitive gymnastics

406
00:28:28,799 --> 00:28:32,480
that I think we all have to go through in

407
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,079
effort to, uh, to minimize our own cognitive dissonance in

408
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,480
this life, because cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable. Right if I'm

409
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:42,400
thinking two things at the same time, and one is

410
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,079
that I'm justified and I'm doing the right thing, and

411
00:28:44,119 --> 00:28:47,039
the other is that this is unethical and I'm gonna,

412
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,119
you know, uh, rotten hell for this, or like somehow

413
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,880
downstream this is gonna you know, get me karmically, or

414
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,720
even just it doesn't feel good to do this thing

415
00:28:57,079 --> 00:29:01,759
that feels cruel. We will often go with the justification

416
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:08,160
and the psychological explanation that is the most palatable to us.

417
00:29:09,319 --> 00:29:15,440
And I am, you know, obviously concerned that this negative

418
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,440
feedback loop as you described it, right, because it begets

419
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,640
itself and it starts to run away from itself. That's

420
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,319
how we end up with authoritarianism. That's how we end

421
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:31,480
up in the crisis, you know of kind of democracy

422
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:32,519
that we're in right now.

423
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Speaker 3: Right that and the fact that we I don't want

424
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:40,240
to say that we don't value critical thinking. Well, we

425
00:29:40,279 --> 00:29:43,000
also have a series of policies that suggest that critical

426
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:46,680
thinking expertise is not the way to go. So cognitive

427
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,680
dissonance in this case, right is like, Ooh, I'm doing

428
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,279
this thing and I believe myself to be a good person,

429
00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:57,039
but this thing is the wrong thing. It sounds like

430
00:29:57,079 --> 00:30:00,319
it's unethical. I'm going to solve my cognitive dissonance by

431
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,759
just saying that I'm a good person. A critical thinker

432
00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:05,799
would say, well, how did we get into this spot

433
00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:09,839
in the first place? And then that's a different set

434
00:30:09,839 --> 00:30:12,720
of questions that we would try to answer, which is,

435
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,000
maybe you are a good person and maybe you didn't

436
00:30:16,039 --> 00:30:18,400
know better, but this is the system that we have

437
00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:20,559
and it's unfair. Now what are we going to do

438
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:21,079
about it?

439
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: And that's an important place that I think a lot

440
00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:30,480
of people are sort of waking up to right now.

441
00:30:31,079 --> 00:30:33,640
You know, sort of this I gosh, I mentioned this

442
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,359
at least like once a month on the show, But

443
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,519
I think about the Beverly Tatum quote in why are

444
00:30:39,559 --> 00:30:41,799
all the Black kids sitting together at the cafeteria? This

445
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:50,200
idea that you know, white supremacy, white identity, well, supremacy.

446
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,359
I mean, I can't think of a better way to

447
00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:54,519
put it. It really is this moving sidewalk that we

448
00:30:54,559 --> 00:30:57,200
see at the airport, right, And if you are just

449
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,119
kind of standing still, you're still moving in the direction

450
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,799
of those policies. You have to turn around, you have

451
00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:06,680
to walk backward, and you have to walk faster than

452
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,559
the sidewalk is moving forward in order to actually break

453
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,799
that chain. And I think a lot of people right

454
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:17,559
now have been standing still on the sidewalk and they're

455
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,440
waking up to Trump's reality and they're going, oh shit,

456
00:31:21,799 --> 00:31:25,000
what can I do? I've just been being pulled along,

457
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,039
not realizing how their own sort of actions have perpetuated

458
00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:32,319
because the systems are in place, because those policies exist.

459
00:31:33,279 --> 00:31:36,839
Speaker 3: I think in this case, I am in agreement with you.

460
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,720
I think that one of the things that people are

461
00:31:38,759 --> 00:31:41,680
seeing now is that the thing that's on the other

462
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,759
side of the walkway doesn't is going to eat them

463
00:31:46,759 --> 00:31:47,680
alive as well.

464
00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they themselves are also subject to it. You're right,

465
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,880
until it matters to me, it doesn't actually matter, and

466
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,559
that's gross, but it's also the reality, right, Like it's

467
00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:01,759
one thing to watch my fellow person, and that fellow

468
00:32:01,799 --> 00:32:04,839
person being of a different ilk, a different race, a

469
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,279
different color, a different whatever. It's another thing to see

470
00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:11,440
that oh wait, these policies. Wait now I'm included in

471
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,119
that minority standing. Oh oh, now my left wing you know,

472
00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:20,799
ideology is being eaten alive. Now my womanhood or my

473
00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:24,440
my social class, or my whatever the case may be.

474
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,960
That's I'm so glad you pointed that out, because I

475
00:32:28,319 --> 00:32:37,119
do think that's really the impetus. It's an important point,

476
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,240
you know, it's we got to look ourselves in the

477
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,119
mirror and see that. It's kind of you see it

478
00:32:41,119 --> 00:32:43,200
all the time with like celebrities or with I mean,

479
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,319
I know this is not a great example, but you know,

480
00:32:45,359 --> 00:32:48,000
somebody doesn't care about an issue until their kid has

481
00:32:48,039 --> 00:32:50,240
the disease and then all of a sudden, the spokesperson

482
00:32:50,319 --> 00:32:53,200
for the disease Like that's what we're talking about here.

483
00:32:53,799 --> 00:32:55,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the thing is is.

484
00:32:57,359 --> 00:33:03,559
Speaker 3: Right, what is in fear creating is that it takes

485
00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:07,720
so much when we've been told so if we cared

486
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,200
about democracy, democracy says that like everyone gets a say,

487
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,400
and so then you're like, oh, well, okay, maybe this

488
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,440
policy means that some of those people don't get a say,

489
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,519
but that same policy rule system can be used against you.

490
00:33:25,319 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: And so we.

491
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:32,519
Speaker 3: We we chip away at the foundations by allowing some

492
00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:37,720
groups to be sacrificed, to be excluded, to be you know,

493
00:33:38,079 --> 00:33:42,880
left out. But we need everyone to be involved in

494
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:48,319
order to have a you know, strong community, a strong society,

495
00:33:48,359 --> 00:33:52,839
a strong democracy, to stay away from authoritarianism.

496
00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:52,519
Speaker 2: You know.

497
00:33:53,039 --> 00:33:55,559
Speaker 3: And so the thing is is that I guess I

498
00:33:55,559 --> 00:34:01,319
would argue that we have been on the decline for

499
00:34:01,359 --> 00:34:04,799
a long time. It's just now that people are seeing

500
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,920
where they sit in the in the in this disaster

501
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,119
dumpster fire that we find ourselves in now.

502
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I think that's why it's so freaking important

503
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,760
that we study our own history. Like I can't help

504
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,679
but think about books that I've read about suffrage and

505
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,360
how you know, really, when you dig into suffrage, you

506
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,320
see that suffrage was not just about the right for

507
00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:34,760
women to vote, but that the front line individuals in

508
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,960
this fight were black and queer women, and that there

509
00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:40,920
was a lot of infighting. There was a lot of

510
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,960
sort of white gatekeeping saying no, no, no, no, uh,

511
00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:47,320
you guys are not going to be good for our cause.

512
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,280
We don't want to have anything to do with you.

513
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,239
Please let the white you know kind of ladies, uh

514
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,559
take take up. And it's like, what are you even

515
00:34:55,599 --> 00:34:59,119
talking about? The whole point is that if we don't

516
00:34:59,199 --> 00:35:03,159
all fight for these rights, eventually they will be eroded,

517
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,079
like they you know, every punk rock song. First they

518
00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:08,039
came for the queers, then they came for the blacks,

519
00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:10,239
and they can soon they're gonna come for you. Like

520
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,679
this is how you have to think, and it's how

521
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,880
all of history has told us this works. I mean

522
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,519
even the Holocaust, right, Like, it wasn't just the Jews,

523
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:21,519
and it wasn't just the Romani, and it wasn't just

524
00:35:21,559 --> 00:35:24,079
the individual you know, and the and the LGBTQI. We

525
00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:27,280
look at like Weimar, Germany like, but a lot of

526
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,440
people they have a very oversimplified view of their of

527
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,199
their own history. And of course, how would you not

528
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,159
if that is what is being taught in your schools

529
00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:37,679
because of these policies.

530
00:35:38,039 --> 00:35:42,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's we practice on smaller groups,

531
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,119
but those tools can be used, can be scaled up

532
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,280
very easily if if they're lett led to be so.

533
00:35:51,559 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Trump is such a kind of almost overt

534
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,039
and obvious example in some ways a beautiful metaphor for

535
00:35:58,119 --> 00:36:01,639
what we're talking about, because even within his own ranks,

536
00:36:01,679 --> 00:36:03,920
I mean, we had a whole administration of his to

537
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:07,679
learn from. And of course now it's uh, I mean

538
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,559
it's always been off the rails, but now it's like

539
00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:12,599
all the quiet parts are being said out loud. But

540
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,360
not just in terms of like American you know, interest

541
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,119
groups or like demographic groups are you know, just intersectional identities.

542
00:36:22,639 --> 00:36:25,960
But look at his own inner circle. It's like he

543
00:36:26,079 --> 00:36:29,000
does it to the people who thought that they were

544
00:36:29,199 --> 00:36:32,880
Trump's team. Yes, and the and the circle just gets

545
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,960
smaller and smaller and smaller.

546
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,199
Speaker 3: It's it's really fascinating to watch, isn't it. I mean,

547
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:45,000
to insult you know, someone who you selected to be

548
00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:46,000
in your inner circle.

549
00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:49,119
Speaker 1: I yeah, someone who stumped for you, like somebody, you know,

550
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,800
it's insane. He will turn on Vans, just like he

551
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,119
turned on Pence. He will turn on everybody the minute that,

552
00:36:56,599 --> 00:37:01,639
narcissistically they insult him. And that's that's really what supremacy

553
00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:06,760
and you know, power grab is about, right, yes, And

554
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,760
that's why this black evidence. I mean, obviously, like you mentioned,

555
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,119
it's always multifaceted, but I can't help but feel like

556
00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:14,960
as you strip away and strip away and strip away,

557
00:37:15,159 --> 00:37:20,119
it's always gets down to capitalism, to money to power. Yes,

558
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:26,199
I mean, I mean even the roots of slavery, right,

559
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,239
and the and the systems and the policies that you

560
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,920
said were in place to kind of uh punish or

561
00:37:32,119 --> 00:37:37,840
or get you know, white enslavers into line. It's sort

562
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,880
of this idea of like, nope, this is what is

563
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,039
economically viable for the rule in class, So we need

564
00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:45,960
to we need to shape up and make sure that

565
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,159
we stay the course.

566
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yes, I think my pause there, I

567
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:56,639
was thinking about the white folks who actually only benefit psychologically,

568
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,320
and so it's you know, oh.

569
00:37:58,320 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, the.

570
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: H entry.

571
00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:06,679
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, it's like okay, that's not going to feed

572
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:07,800
your family, but sure.

573
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: But I think sometimes when you really dig into it

574
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,880
and you get down to it and you hear them

575
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,280
defending billionaires, it's because they truly believe that one day

576
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:17,559
they could be written.

577
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 3: That's correct, You're like correct, yeah, yes, oh it's not

578
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:22,679
happening for you, bro.

579
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,079
Speaker 1: Sorry, But of course it kind of makes sense that

580
00:38:26,159 --> 00:38:32,000
somebody who denies that there isn't an even playing field.

581
00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:37,639
Somebody who denies systemic discrimination and racism is obviously going

582
00:38:37,679 --> 00:38:41,480
to believe that the American dream applies to them and

583
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,880
that the it is a will issue. It is a

584
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,639
pull yourself up by your bootstraps issue, and like their

585
00:38:46,679 --> 00:38:49,360
time is coming. It's funny. There's a theme that's been

586
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,400
coming up for me in the other podcast I work

587
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,599
on The Skeptics Guide to the Universe, and in therapy

588
00:38:55,639 --> 00:38:59,159
with my patients lately. So I work in a in

589
00:38:59,199 --> 00:39:04,360
a cancer center at like a big hospital and work

590
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,519
with patients who are going through you know, treatment and beyond.

591
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,119
And a theme that I've been seeing over and over

592
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,639
is the fundamental attribution error, right, this cognitive bias that

593
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,519
tells all of us when something good happens to me,

594
00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:22,599
it's because I'm a good person, and when something good

595
00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:26,119
happens to you, it's because you happened upon it. And

596
00:39:26,159 --> 00:39:28,599
really that's the opposite of it. The real one is

597
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,840
when somebody's like an asshole when I'm driving, it's because

598
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,519
they are just an asshole. But when I'm an asshole

599
00:39:34,519 --> 00:39:39,880
when I'm driving, it's because I'm late. And it's situational. Yes,

600
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,800
we all have that right, like, that's a that's a

601
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,639
human way of thinking that we have to actually actively break.

602
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm just trying to think about that on

603
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,840
the aggregate level. So I think the way that plays

604
00:39:53,960 --> 00:40:01,400
out is kind of around this this knee jerk reaction

605
00:40:01,679 --> 00:40:05,639
to the idea of white privilege, which.

606
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: Is right, like, that's what that is. Is.

607
00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 1: I sometimes wonder if I should be using that word,

608
00:40:10,679 --> 00:40:13,719
because people often stop listening the second I say.

609
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. I think that's in that category.

610
00:40:20,559 --> 00:40:25,039
That would be the group version of the fundamental attribution error,

611
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,639
which is we don't you know, I'm a low income

612
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:35,400
white person, don't I don't have privilege. But that's not

613
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,159
what that means anyway, And so m hm. And so

614
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,599
then people are you're like, Okay, I won't use that word,

615
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,360
even though it is the word to use to describe

616
00:40:45,039 --> 00:40:46,320
the situation.

617
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So you know, I think about we.

618
00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 3: End up boxing ourselves in in some kinds of ways

619
00:40:55,519 --> 00:41:00,440
in response to people's and you know, you want people

620
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,440
to listen, like you want to craft your communication for

621
00:41:03,519 --> 00:41:07,599
your audience. But we also, I think, are finding ourselves

622
00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:11,079
in this situation where we can't we can no longer

623
00:41:11,199 --> 00:41:16,519
use the words that do the best describing, because the

624
00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:21,519
people whose feelings are hurt matter more than telling the

625
00:41:21,559 --> 00:41:22,480
truth of the matter.

626
00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: Okay, I have to share, like an experience that I had.

627
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,119
I would say it would be about three years ago now,

628
00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:31,639
because I really want your take on the I wish

629
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,559
I knew you then and could have called you and said,

630
00:41:36,199 --> 00:41:39,960
please help me in this moment, because you know, based

631
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,039
on all of your expertise, I'm at a loss. So obviously.

632
00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:45,559
I live in la I grew up in Texas. I

633
00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:50,719
did my internship for my psychology PhD in Florida at

634
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:57,079
a private university in an outpatient gerontology center, and I

635
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,599
had an incredible supervisor who was very existential and who

636
00:42:01,679 --> 00:42:05,679
is anti racist and probably the most liberal person within

637
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,280
the whole department that I was privileged to work with.

638
00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:11,719
The students that we worked with came from all different

639
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,480
walks of life. Right it was Florida, and they were

640
00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:16,960
who they were, and they were training to be psychologists.

641
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,079
And I had a group of graduate students that I

642
00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:23,159
was overseeing as the intern and we read for our

643
00:42:23,199 --> 00:42:28,159
book club, how to Be Anti Racist. And I remember

644
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,000
the initial reaction of one of the students who was

645
00:42:31,039 --> 00:42:34,119
a white woman saying this is not how to get

646
00:42:34,199 --> 00:42:37,719
through to me. I do not want to be insulted.

647
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,519
I do not want somebody to yell at me. If

648
00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:44,000
you want me to hear this perspective, you shouldn't sound

649
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,360
so angry about it. I felt myself being very defensive

650
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:52,000
the whole time I read this. Now, I respected the

651
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,119
fact that she shared her honest experience that she felt defensive,

652
00:42:56,119 --> 00:42:58,760
and she was sort of able to find it inside

653
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,760
herself to say that. But I struggled, and I kind

654
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:07,440
of was at odds with my supervisor of how to

655
00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:12,360
handle it. Because my supervisor was very patient and would ask,

656
00:43:12,559 --> 00:43:15,480
you know, open ended questions and would really kind of

657
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,239
hold the hands of some of these students and bring

658
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,840
them along for the ride. And my perspective was, these

659
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:25,239
students are seeing patients. Now, I do not feel comfortable

660
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:31,199
allowing somebody who has that perspective to see a patient

661
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,480
like catch up. You need to catch up. If this

662
00:43:35,639 --> 00:43:39,000
is the work you want to do, it is unsafe

663
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,920
for you to be this behind in your understanding of

664
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,880
sort of racial identity. And we were at odds with that,

665
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,519
and part of it was probably my California perspective I

666
00:43:48,559 --> 00:43:52,079
don't know, but I'm curious your take on that, because

667
00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:54,920
I think we see this in academic institutions a lot.

668
00:43:55,440 --> 00:44:02,679
We see this sort of white as you mentioned before,

669
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:08,599
I don't know, not denial, yes, but almost like reactivity

670
00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:12,239
to being told that they have privilege. But we see

671
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,000
it in academia, we see it in medicine, we see

672
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,880
it in places where it can do real harm.

673
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:21,159
Speaker 2: Yeah.

674
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 3: You know, the thing is is that I'm not sure

675
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:29,320
that I would have disagreed with your mentor mm hm

676
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:30,199
in a.

677
00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:31,079
Speaker 1: Better woman than I.

678
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 2: Well, because what I'm thinking about is strategy.

679
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah, you are being actually logistic in your approach,

680
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,280
which is which is a smart way to be.

681
00:44:46,639 --> 00:44:51,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and I'm with you, Like, if someone's like,

682
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,760
I don't like this, it's it makes me feel defensive.

683
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,920
I mean, in my mind, I'm picking like, so the

684
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,639
fuck what exactly?

685
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, get past it.

686
00:45:03,119 --> 00:45:04,599
Speaker 2: But I have also.

687
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:12,119
Speaker 3: Been trained, as a black woman living in the society

688
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,599
that there are folks that you have to deal with

689
00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:18,800
with kid gloves, right, if you want to get the

690
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:24,159
thing out of them, you have to know the language.

691
00:45:24,159 --> 00:45:25,800
And and you know, actually I was going to mention

692
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,679
this earlier when we were talking about, you know, how

693
00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:33,519
difficult it is to be in someone else's shoes.

694
00:45:33,599 --> 00:45:34,599
Speaker 2: But I think.

695
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 3: That is what black folks do in order to buy right.

696
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: You exist in white spaces all the.

697
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 3: Time, so so so I think it's it would be

698
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,159
hard for me to jolt out of that. I mean,

699
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:55,000
I know what, my my inner dialogue would be screaming

700
00:45:55,079 --> 00:46:01,079
on one side, But uh, as a as a as

701
00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:05,400
a person who is trying to bring people in, I

702
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,199
think I would end up going the long what makes

703
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:13,119
you say that? Can you let's talk about values. Let's

704
00:46:13,159 --> 00:46:17,599
see if we can untangle the contradictions here? Can I

705
00:46:17,679 --> 00:46:21,000
get you to think more critically about what you're saying

706
00:46:21,119 --> 00:46:27,440
and what that means. But that's my strategy, because that's

707
00:46:27,519 --> 00:46:33,400
the strategy that has allowed me to live in the

708
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:34,400
way that I live now.

709
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think a lot of it, it sounds like,

710
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,400
has to do with role Right. At the time, I

711
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,719
was still a student, but I was an advanced student,

712
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,239
and they were students who were not as advanced in

713
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,760
their education. But I wasn't in that sort of supervisory

714
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,559
professor position, and I didn't have the insight and the

715
00:46:52,599 --> 00:46:54,519
wisdom and the knowledge and there was a part of

716
00:46:54,519 --> 00:46:57,800
me that felt angry, like I'm doing the work, why

717
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,519
aren't you doing the work? You know? And I think

718
00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:03,360
I see that a lot in my everyday experiences with

719
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,679
loved ones from a feminist perspective, like I don't want

720
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,159
to have to teach men to be better to women.

721
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,719
It's exhausting and I feel like that's not my job.

722
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,679
And I hear this all the time from my black friends, right,

723
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:23,000
like I don't want to be patient with white racist people,

724
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,840
like it is the most insulting, infantilizing, exhausting thing to

725
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:32,400
be asked. But of course, a sometimes you just have to,

726
00:47:33,039 --> 00:47:34,960
as you mentioned, like that is the position you have

727
00:47:35,039 --> 00:47:37,800
been put in. B you are a professor, you are

728
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,960
a political scientist, and you get to see it from

729
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,480
both sides. And it's such a curious thing to me,

730
00:47:45,159 --> 00:47:49,199
just the burden what we ask of people to where

731
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:53,000
the onus falls when it comes to teaching. And that's

732
00:47:53,039 --> 00:47:55,719
why I think, getting back to the whole point of

733
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,519
this book, right, Black Evidence, a History and a Warning,

734
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:03,840
is you know, why is it the job of black

735
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:09,199
Americans to go above and beyond to try to prove

736
00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:14,079
that their simple existence is valid?

737
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:17,159
Speaker 2: It's not our.

738
00:48:17,079 --> 00:48:21,639
Speaker 1: Job, yeah, exactly, But then you carry the burden, right,

739
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:23,559
you so often carry the burden.

740
00:48:23,639 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: That's the part.

741
00:48:24,519 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: You know.

742
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 3: My son is twelve, he's in seventh grade, and he

743
00:48:29,199 --> 00:48:33,480
has already learned that he hates group work because there

744
00:48:33,519 --> 00:48:39,599
are free riders and there are people who do not care.

745
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,719
And he is thinking, I want to do well on

746
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:50,280
this assignment. I want to earn whatever benefits, you know,

747
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,599
I want to do the learning, all of the things.

748
00:48:52,679 --> 00:48:55,199
And so I am going to pick up the slack

749
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,079
here because I want to move you know, I want.

750
00:48:58,920 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: Us to do well.

751
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,639
Speaker 3: And so it's not his job to carry his team

752
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,280
on his back, but that is the position that he's

753
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,119
put in. And it's similar right where you're in a group,

754
00:49:10,159 --> 00:49:13,480
where you have a group assignment here, and it is

755
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:20,119
moving our society towards its better angels. It's bending the

756
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:25,079
long arc of history to justice, you know, all of

757
00:49:25,119 --> 00:49:31,679
these things. And it's also about survival. And so that

758
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,599
means that some of us are going to pick up

759
00:49:35,639 --> 00:49:41,480
the slack because our lives depend on it, because democracy

760
00:49:41,599 --> 00:49:45,239
depends on it, because having nice things for everybody or

761
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:50,079
for as many possible people depends on it. So you know,

762
00:49:50,639 --> 00:49:53,199
I think that's the answer. It's not our job, it's

763
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,000
everybody's job. It's just that some people show up for work.

764
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the truth of the matter is I think

765
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:04,079
I think it also, you know, I think in a

766
00:50:04,079 --> 00:50:06,960
way it validates to the black folks who decide, I

767
00:50:07,039 --> 00:50:11,360
don't want to do this. It isn't psychologically beneficial for me.

768
00:50:11,599 --> 00:50:16,159
It isn't healthy, and it's actually slowly killing me to

769
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,440
have to constantly regulate my emotions in these situations so

770
00:50:21,559 --> 00:50:24,119
that you know, it's white women's tears, right like, so

771
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,840
that other people can come to their to you know, slowly,

772
00:50:28,159 --> 00:50:30,800
you know, come along for the ride. And I think

773
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,800
that you know, there's kind of there's no right way

774
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,400
to exist in your own body and in your own skin,

775
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,679
is there? Yeah?

776
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,119
Speaker 3: I mean this is why I write, is it hopes

777
00:50:43,159 --> 00:50:46,480
that someone who wants to do better or no more.

778
00:50:48,079 --> 00:50:49,199
Speaker 2: Has a resource.

779
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,039
Speaker 3: And I write to say that you can't say that

780
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,960
you didn't know where you couldn't find out, right, right,

781
00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:59,039
That's so true.

782
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,199
Speaker 1: Right, It's like it's like you can't get a you

783
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,679
can't get pulled over when you're driving a car and

784
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:05,679
go I didn't know I couldn't run a stop sign.

785
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,199
It's like ignorance of the law is not an excuse

786
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,280
for breaking the law. Yes, it's the same thing here,

787
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,119
Like the evidence is in front of you, you are

788
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:14,559
choosing not to look at it.

789
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and some of it is hard

790
00:51:18,119 --> 00:51:20,119
to see, and so I'm going to help you see it.

791
00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:23,280
And there are you know, many many people who do that.

792
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,199
I mean, you can't walk into a bookstore or a

793
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:31,400
grocery store or wherever there's reading material or podcasts or television.

794
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,440
I mean, it's the information is there. And so just

795
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:41,480
the amount of room for claims of ignorance decreases every day.

796
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,320
Whether people are willing to admit that is a whole

797
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:50,960
other thing. But I've just I've I've made that my job.

798
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:57,079
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And gosh, do we all collectively thank you

799
00:51:57,159 --> 00:52:00,199
for that? Because that is very often a thank list job,

800
00:52:00,199 --> 00:52:04,280
and it's actually a job that can be detrimental to

801
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:08,639
your mental health, Like doing that kind of work can

802
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,840
take a lot out of you. So I'm curious what

803
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,079
the experience is like. Do you find it's fulfilling? Do

804
00:52:14,119 --> 00:52:17,159
you find obviously there are times when you're you know,

805
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,840
promoting the book or you're, you know, doing lectures and

806
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,920
you have a receptive audience, but I can imagine that

807
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,320
you get hate online and you get you do butt

808
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:30,119
up against Sometimes those people who fully deny that the

809
00:52:30,159 --> 00:52:33,280
evidence even exists, even if it's in front of their face,

810
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,639
they they devalue it or they use some sort of

811
00:52:38,159 --> 00:52:42,159
mental gymnastics to say this evidence is not real evidence,

812
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,440
or you're fabricating it, or you're exaggerating it. I mean,

813
00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:48,079
how do you take care of yourself in those moments.

814
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:57,079
Speaker 3: I'm not the model on that one.

815
00:52:56,159 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: As I say, not as I do a situation. Yeah,

816
00:53:00,039 --> 00:53:00,800
this is your mission.

817
00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what's actually As you were asking me

818
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,719
that question, I was thinking about those kinds of reactions

819
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:13,559
and responses and maybe ten years ago I started this

820
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:16,719
folder in my inbox called fan.

821
00:53:16,519 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 2: Mail, and.

822
00:53:19,199 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 3: Oh no, it was when I did my TED talk

823
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,480
and because people would email me what they thought, you know,

824
00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:28,440
about my TED talk and how much they hated it

825
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:32,360
and how like, you know, my go like find myself

826
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:33,920
in the middle of traffic and get hit by a

827
00:53:34,079 --> 00:53:40,119
truck and stuff like that. But I have had fewer

828
00:53:40,159 --> 00:53:43,480
of those emails, and I just started thinking like, oh,

829
00:53:43,599 --> 00:53:48,079
is that because our algorithms like wouldn't send my material

830
00:53:48,199 --> 00:53:51,159
the things that I write to a person that is

831
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:55,440
diametrically opposed to what I was saying anyway, and so

832
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,239
they're so siloed. Now, Yeah, I was like, I actually

833
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,360
haven't gotten that kind of response. But I can imagine

834
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,239
that it's because the folks who would not read a

835
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,519
book like this or care about issues like this whatever,

836
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,800
actually have but that it would never be put to

837
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,840
them as something that they would be interested in, and

838
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,920
so I haven't had to deal with that.

839
00:54:22,039 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 2: I think.

840
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:26,559
Speaker 3: I mean, writing the book hurt me because it's, you know,

841
00:54:26,679 --> 00:54:31,400
you think about looking at pictures of lynching and reading

842
00:54:31,559 --> 00:54:39,159
about you know, Ida b Wells's you know, descriptions of

843
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:45,119
what's happening during that time, and rethinking about Rodney King

844
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,480
and kind of replaying these images in my mind. So

845
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:54,599
that was the thing that hurt more so than you know,

846
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,639
some person who is just diametrically opposed to my existence

847
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,239
emailing me. They don't I don't think they even know

848
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:01,800
I exist.

849
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,079
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Yeah, it's it's more of kind of like

850
00:55:04,119 --> 00:55:08,440
a compassion fatigue, a component that just requires a lot

851
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,239
of breaks and a lot of self care and a

852
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,960
lot of engaging in the things that you love in

853
00:55:14,079 --> 00:55:18,159
order to uh to take care of yourself in those

854
00:55:18,159 --> 00:55:22,199
moments when you're you are feeling the suffering of others,

855
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:27,239
you know, others today, but also others from from generations past.

856
00:55:27,679 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 3: You know.

857
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 1: I do worry though, that sometimes it just takes like

858
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:37,639
one blog, you know, or like one MANI sphere podcaster

859
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:42,000
to like get wind of an idea. But I think

860
00:55:42,039 --> 00:55:45,519
in some ways also there is there is this interesting

861
00:55:45,559 --> 00:55:48,519
thing where and I'm not saying, you know, obviously all

862
00:55:48,519 --> 00:55:51,920
of your scholarship is beyond reproach, but but that like

863
00:55:52,559 --> 00:55:59,559
when something is really well researched and communicated, that's not

864
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:07,079
the takedown that these kind of trolls want to be doing.

865
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,000
They want to straw man the argument, right, they want

866
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,559
to simplify it, and they want to take down aspects

867
00:56:12,559 --> 00:56:14,880
of it that you're not even talking about. So so

868
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:18,880
this wouldn't be as much fodder for them because it's

869
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:20,000
just it's it's more work.

870
00:56:20,599 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 2: They don't want to do that.

871
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 1: I do think it's true, like you see these these whatever,

872
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,199
the Charlie Kirk's of the world, and these different individuals

873
00:56:34,199 --> 00:56:37,840
who have these you know, clips on the Internet where

874
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:41,039
they're dismantling the argument of like a young black man

875
00:56:41,199 --> 00:56:45,920
who's who's claiming uh, systemic racism, But they're not actually

876
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,840
dismantling their argument. They're just really good rhetoricians and make

877
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:51,199
it seem like they are.

878
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,679
Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, I mean, and they often quote things

879
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:58,079
that never were said and that aren't real.

880
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, the world that we live in though, Like

881
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,599
I guess there's an interesting question as we're sort of

882
00:57:05,599 --> 00:57:08,239
getting towards the end of the hour, how do you

883
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,199
not despair? And I'm not saying you don't despair. I'm

884
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,079
sure you do despair, but you still work, right, you

885
00:57:14,119 --> 00:57:18,440
still wake up, you're publishing this book, you are doing

886
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,360
your scholarship, you're talking to us right now. How do

887
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,719
you stay motivated to do that against this background, which

888
00:57:26,079 --> 00:57:29,480
it's not like we haven't been here before, but boy,

889
00:57:29,599 --> 00:57:31,519
I think in our lifetime at least, this is a

890
00:57:31,519 --> 00:57:32,639
big pendulum swing.

891
00:57:34,719 --> 00:57:38,679
Speaker 3: So I on some level think it's my responsibility too.

892
00:57:39,119 --> 00:57:46,320
And I think about moments in our history when there

893
00:57:46,519 --> 00:57:49,239
was a thing that we thought was impossible and was

894
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:53,320
never gonna happen, and then it did. So I can

895
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,320
think about folks who were enslaved who thought probably thought like,

896
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,159
this system is going to last forever, and then it didn't,

897
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,920
and then there were black folks in Congress like.

898
00:58:05,119 --> 00:58:06,199
Speaker 2: A few years later.

899
00:58:06,599 --> 00:58:09,559
Speaker 3: I mean, that was just kind of a rapid scene,

900
00:58:09,599 --> 00:58:15,239
you know, series of events that people thought were impossible

901
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:19,119
and then they became possible, in part because people fought

902
00:58:19,159 --> 00:58:19,480
for it.

903
00:58:19,639 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 2: People stood up for it.

904
00:58:21,199 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 3: People talked about it, people got people, you know, brought

905
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:29,320
people in, they expanded the scope of conflict, they wrote

906
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,639
about it, they marched about it, all of those things.

907
00:58:32,199 --> 00:58:32,559
Speaker 2: And so.

908
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,079
Speaker 3: I am I just I have to carry I carry

909
00:58:38,079 --> 00:58:41,199
that legacy that there are things that we didn't think

910
00:58:41,239 --> 00:58:45,159
were possible that did become possible because people made it so.

911
00:58:46,519 --> 00:58:49,840
And it didn't happen the next day or the day

912
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,599
after that, but it did happen eventually.

913
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: And kind of to that end, I have to ask,

914
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:59,760
because I've long argued for this, but I'm not sure

915
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:04,280
how much evidence I have to support it. It just

916
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:10,280
is a sort of global takeaway that I think, I see.

917
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,239
Do you think that what is happening right now? Yes,

918
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,280
I think that there are all of these systems in place,

919
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,440
as you argue so beautifully in your book, that actually

920
00:59:18,599 --> 00:59:20,519
kind of in a lot of ways led to where

921
00:59:20,519 --> 00:59:24,519
we are right now. Right that the perpetuating systems and

922
00:59:24,559 --> 00:59:27,320
the entrenchment of these things. But do you think that

923
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:31,320
there's also an argument to be made that what is

924
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:36,559
happening right now is actually a backlash to progress, and

925
00:59:36,599 --> 00:59:39,519
that very often when the pendulum starts to swing, like

926
00:59:39,519 --> 00:59:43,440
that moral arc of history is bending towards justice, that

927
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:47,320
there will be powers that will start a desperate scramble

928
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,719
to prevent that bend. And so almost every time we

929
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:56,280
see progress, we see a big backlash to that progress,

930
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,320
and we have to kind of stumble backward before we

931
00:59:58,320 --> 00:59:59,320
move forward again.

932
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 3: I don't think that that path, that back and forth path,

933
01:00:06,559 --> 01:00:07,559
is inevitable.

934
01:00:07,599 --> 01:00:09,079
Speaker 2: I think that's a choice that we make.

935
01:00:09,159 --> 01:00:12,679
Speaker 3: But yes, I agree that you know, people will people

936
01:00:12,719 --> 01:00:14,599
have asked me like, oh, did the Black Lives Matter

937
01:00:14,679 --> 01:00:16,800
movement work? And you know, it's like, well, work to

938
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,599
do what exactly? But I do think that it did.

939
01:00:21,639 --> 01:00:24,840
Putting my air quotes work in that there was a

940
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:29,800
significant change in the discourse. There is a significant change

941
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:35,440
in the way that people thought about police brutality. There

942
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,760
is a significant change in the words that people were

943
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:44,639
using intersectionality, right, and so that is scary to people

944
01:00:44,719 --> 01:00:49,679
who want to dominate others, and so yeah, that's a response.

945
01:00:49,719 --> 01:00:52,880
I think Frederick Douglas said something like that, like, yeah,

946
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:56,159
when you see a rise in lynchings, it's because someone

947
01:00:56,199 --> 01:01:00,360
has done something well that there has been success there

948
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:05,320
wasn't And so yeah, I would say that you can

949
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,719
only you know, what we're seeing is a response to

950
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,800
the seeds that had been planted and started to grow

951
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:22,840
from civil rights legislation and voting rights legislation, from affirmative action,

952
01:01:23,199 --> 01:01:28,400
from you know, more people having access to education and

953
01:01:29,559 --> 01:01:32,039
home loans, and you know, we can go on and

954
01:01:32,079 --> 01:01:35,480
on and so yes, I think what we're seeing is

955
01:01:35,119 --> 01:01:39,239
a is a response to what has been a trajectory

956
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:43,159
of success. And again to my point, I think that

957
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,280
there's enough people on the other side of the pendulum

958
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:48,760
to swing it back the other way.

959
01:01:49,639 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 1: I agree. I think that if you were to pull

960
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:58,440
the majority of people, honestly the majority of people, they

961
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,440
would and give them all of the information, the real

962
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,920
evidence in front of them. I think that their opinions

963
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:10,360
and their ideologies would be justice oriented. But I think

964
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:14,760
that there's a massive machine in play, a propaganda machine,

965
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:20,599
a suppression machine, a lot of systems that make it

966
01:02:20,679 --> 01:02:28,639
so that a vocal, wealthy, power hungry few are dramatically

967
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:35,280
influencing the voices of the many, and I worry about that.

968
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,840
But that's why we have to maintain our democracy, right

969
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:42,360
That's why this is so important to fight for right now,

970
01:02:42,559 --> 01:02:47,800
because once authoritarianism has its full hooks, it doesn't mean

971
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:49,239
we won't be able to get out from under it,

972
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:51,639
but there's going to be a lot of suffering before

973
01:02:51,679 --> 01:02:56,159
we do. And I think that that's part of the reason,

974
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,239
one of many of the reasons why this book and

975
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:03,719
this conversation is so incredibly timely. So I just I

976
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,679
can't thank you enough for joining us. Everybody. The book

977
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,199
is Black Evidence, A History and a Warning by doctor

978
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,800
Candace Watt Smith. Candace, thank you, Thank you so much.

979
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:18,159
This was a fascinating, emotional, but I think also kind

980
01:03:18,159 --> 01:03:20,840
of motivating conversation to be had today.

981
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,159
Speaker 2: Kiera, thank you for being brave and having it with me.

982
01:03:25,039 --> 01:03:27,519
Speaker 1: And everybody listening. The same goes to you. Thank you

983
01:03:27,559 --> 01:03:30,400
for coming back week after week. I'm really looking forward

984
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,800
to the next time we all get together to talk.

985
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:33,320
Martie