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Start having the 21 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:01.079 most fun ever. At casino dot. 22 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:04.200 Com Billberg, where I lost the terms conditions eighteen class. 23 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:18.120 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 24 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:21.239 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 25 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:28.599 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 26 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:32.319 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 27 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:36.599 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 28 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:39.879 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 29 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:55.239 Good Evening in January eighteen eighty nine, as London constables 30 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:58.159 hunted for Jack the Ripper and theaters around the world 31 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:03.280 presented theatrical renditions of the Jacculine Hyde story. Jackson, Michigan 32 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:07.560 Police Captain Jack Boyle search for the murderer of Mary Latimer. 33 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:11.680 This book follows Captain Boyle to the bordellos of gaslight 34 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:17.280 era Detroit, populated by Madam's pimps, prostitutes, and gamblers. It 35 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:20.680 describes the investigation that led him to a pharmacist that 36 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:25.560 prowled the streets, akin to a real life Jacqueline Hyde. Ultimately, 37 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:28.479 the book delves into the mind of Robert Irving Latimer, 38 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:32.000 known as the most dangerous prisoner in Michigan and the 39 00:02:32.039 --> 00:02:35.560 man who inspired talk about resurrecting the state's long dead 40 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.919 death penalty. The book they were featuring this evening is 41 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:45.439 Pardonable Matricide Robert Irving Latimer from Michigan's Most Dangerous Inmate 42 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:51.319 to Freeman, with my special guest journalist and author Tobin T. Booch. 43 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:53.919 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 44 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:56.879 agreeing to this interview. Tobin T. Book. 45 00:02:57.879 --> 00:02:58.719 Thanks for having me. 46 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:02.960 Dan, thank you very much. We're going to go way 47 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:07.280 back in history to the late eighteen hundreds here, and 48 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:13.719 first off, tell our audience how you came to want 49 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.639 or come to be in a position to write this book, 50 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:18.520 Pardonable Matricide. 51 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:23.680 I have been writing about historic true crime, primarily from 52 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:25.759 my base in Michigan for a long time, for a 53 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:30.319 number of years, and that began with from investigation work 54 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:32.719 that I did as a volunteer in the Kent County 55 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.360 MORG which was research for my first two books, which 56 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.120 were a Cause of Deaths and Skeletons in the Closet, 57 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.159 and they were a way for people to take a 58 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:44.759 look at see what really happens inside of a moork 59 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:47.719 as opposed to the kind of televised reality that you 60 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:52.840 see about borgs on TV. And I love history and 61 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:56.120 so they kind of came together, and in there are 62 00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:03.520 a couple of cases that are just delightfully delicious. It's 63 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:05.599 probably the wrong word to say in this context, but 64 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:09.680 they're really twisted and interesting. And one of them was 65 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:14.960 the Irving Latimer case. And I had read some paragraphs 66 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.600 here and there about the case, but nothing book length. 67 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:21.240 And when I started to look into it, as often 68 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:24.040 happens with my writing, I discovered that there was a 69 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.360 much more to the story than had been told before. 70 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:30.600 So I started digging, and the rocks that I uncovered, 71 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.920 the story that I found underneath there is pardonable Mattress side. 72 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:39.680 Now, this story centers around a place, Jackson, Michigan, that 73 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:42.639 we introduced, So first tell us a little bit about Jackson, 74 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:46.800 Michigan and its location, and then talk about a case 75 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:51.040 that influences this case and also introduces pretty well all 76 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:56.040 the main characters, especially in law enforcement and prosecution, the 77 00:04:56.160 --> 00:05:01.639 Jacob Crouch case. So in eighteen eighty three, in November, 78 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:04.399 you talk about that case. So tell us a little 79 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:08.319 bit about Jackson, Michigan and this case that sets up 80 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:12.399 this very very infamous case in eighteen eighty eight. 81 00:05:13.399 --> 00:05:17.560 In the eighteen eighties, Jackson was a mid sized midwestern 82 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:23.279 town that was located. It's in southeastern Michigan, located between 83 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:28.879 Detroit and Chicago, so any other early traffic that was 84 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:32.079 going from east to west or vice versa would have 85 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:34.399 passed by that area, so it became kind of a 86 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:39.879 major stop for training. Its significance in our area's history 87 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.839 is that it housed the state's first maximum security penitentiary, 88 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:49.000 and that would be the only facility for long term 89 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:53.040 inmates until I believe it was eighteen eighty nine or 90 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:55.000 eighteen ninety when they opened up a second branch of 91 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:59.199 Michigan's up. So Jackson is an interesting situation because it's 92 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:03.040 a city within a city. Most of the I wouldn't 93 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:06.360 say both. Many of the industries that were at work 94 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:11.040 and Jackson were collateral to or supported by the prison itself. 95 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:15.439 What's interesting about this and how it's different from today 96 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:18.639 is that prisoners, when they were sentenced to prison were 97 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:21.639 sentenced to work at hard labor. Someone was given a 98 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:24.160 sentence of twenty years at hard labor, and hard labor 99 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:29.600 was supplied by manufacturers who essentially purchased labor through the prison. 100 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.639 So a lot of like Jackson Wagon Company, which made 101 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:40.680 wagons for nationwide had a factory literally inside the walls 102 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:44.240 of the prison. So Jackson State Penitentiary is actually called 103 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:47.600 the Michigan State Penitentiary. Jackson State Penitentiary at various times 104 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.360 in its history was the largest wall prison in the world, 105 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:52.519 and part of the reason for that is because inside 106 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:55.160 the walls they had all these prison industries which were 107 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.040 really run by private firms in and around the Jackson area. 108 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:01.480 So it's happened because it's a city within a city. 109 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:05.079 Was a family that was murdered in cold blood and 110 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:09.199 the case has never really been solved. How it's relevant 111 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:13.480 to pardonable matricide and the Irving Latimer case is that 112 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:15.720 most of the major players, it's not all of the 113 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.600 major players, right down to the prosecutor and the defense attorneys, 114 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:22.000 had played some type of role in that case. And 115 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:25.800 what's fascinating is that the world was so different back then. 116 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.600 When these investigators went to take a look at the 117 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:31.560 crime scene, they allowed the public full view of the 118 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:35.040 crime scene, and so you had reporters and members of 119 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:37.879 the public who were just morbidly curious wandering in and 120 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:41.399 around the Crouch farmhouse, and that led to a little 121 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.040 bit of a backlash because there was some criticism that 122 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:46.680 the crime scene had been spoiled by all of the 123 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:49.399 feet that had gone through that. So when the Latimer 124 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:51.800 case came up and Mary Latimer was found playing in 125 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:55.240 her bedroom, they closed off the crime scene to everybody 126 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:58.279 but a reporter. I think there was one lone reporter 127 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:01.000 in the house at the time during the time of 128 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:01.759 the investigation. 129 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:12.399 So now we fast forward to eighteen eighty eight. Tell 130 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:18.600 us about the background of Robert Irving Latimer and his mother. 131 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:22.040 Tell us about his family background. As you write, they. 132 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:27.000 Were natives of Jackson. His dad was the business as 133 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:30.560 a pharmacist, and he had dreams of something bigger, and 134 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:32.639 they moved out to the East Coast for a while 135 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:35.519 where his dad opened up the factory. It ultimately folded. 136 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:39.799 Irving Latimer spent his formidable teen years there and he 137 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.559 acquired a reputation very early on as a lady's man. 138 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:46.600 If we call him a skirt chaser today, a rue 139 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:49.240 whatever term you want to use. They were all kinds 140 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:53.559 of phivious, rumored going on about an affair he might 141 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:59.000 have had with an older woman. The family relocated back 142 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:02.240 to Jackson when Irving Latimer was I believe in his 143 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:07.399 late teens and his dad went back into business as 144 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:10.240 a pharmacist, and eventually Irving Latimer followed in his dad's 145 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:13.879 footsteps and purchased the West Side Pharmacy after his dawn 146 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:17.600 unexpectedly passed away and he became he went into the 147 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:20.360 family business, so to speak, and became a pharmacist. The 148 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:24.679 family itself was very well known in Jackson. They were 149 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:28.799 very well respected. They were not what you would call 150 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:31.720 upper class. You'd call them more like middling class or 151 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:36.440 middle class. The house was a kind of a standard 152 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:41.919 sized eighteen eighties eighteen nineties style house, not real big, 153 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:45.480 but it was real close to a part of Jackson 154 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:48.960 where the Uppercross families did live in their Victorian mansions. 155 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:53.600 And I think that Latimer had a little bit of 156 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:59.440 an eye for that lifestyle. Now he became I think 157 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:04.320 that there's essentially public Vlatimer in a private Latimer. He 158 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:06.919 You mentioned in the introduction that he was very much 159 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:09.039 a Jackel and Hide character, and I think that's really 160 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:14.120 a great comparison, because the Jackal was the guy that 161 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:16.679 everybody liked. He was the boy next door. He was 162 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:19.360 the guy who dated the ex sheriff's daughter. He was 163 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:22.879 the guy who the families at the church, at the 164 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:28.399 family Church wanted, wanted their boys to emulate. The hide 165 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:30.399 was the guy that came out at night. He was 166 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:32.799 the one who got high on his own supply. He 167 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:37.759 was the one that took regular trips to Detroit where 168 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:41.919 he spent his time gambling and taking drugs and spending 169 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:46.279 time in the red light district with the prostitutes. The 170 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:49.919 mother and the father were really well respected, but I 171 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:52.840 think that Latimer's reputation eventually caught up to him. He 172 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:55.440 got involved in a couple of scandals that pretty much 173 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:59.120 ruined his reputation when he was in his twenties. 174 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:06.360 Now you talk about Mary Latimer and this West End pharmacy, 175 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:11.519 and of course looks like for all appearances that Robert 176 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:14.440 has learned something from his father about running a business, 177 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:18.679 and this is the West End pharmacy. But tell us 178 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.039 what the conditions are that he gets the money for 179 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:24.799 the pharmacy. That's not how that comes to be. 180 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:29.639 What the conditions are that he could Oh, the father 181 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:34.519 passes away unexpectedly. The father's insurance is split between the 182 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:39.039 mother and the son, and the son uses his share 183 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:42.360 to buy the West End pharmacy. And the pharmacy was 184 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:44.639 a small pharmacy, and it was one of only several 185 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:48.879 in the area, but it was real prosperous. So theoretically 186 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:51.679 the book should have been written in nothing but black ink, 187 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:57.200 but they were written in red. Acquired all kinds of 188 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:00.559 debt because of the hide in him. He was spending 189 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:05.879 his money at night gambling and womanizing and visiting browels 190 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:08.440 in Detroit. So the pharmacy itself would have been a 191 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:12.159 really good business for him, but he had a lot 192 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:14.879 of vices that sort of gotten the way of that. 193 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:17.240 So I think he learned the business from his father, 194 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:19.559 but I don't think he really learned business since from 195 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:20.000 his father. 196 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:25.720 You talk about the pharmacy too before we get into 197 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:30.320 January twenty fifth, eighteen eighty nine. But you talk about 198 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:34.279 the pharmacy and the availability of narcotics at that time. 199 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:36.519 As you write, tell us some of the drugs that 200 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:40.039 were available to a person like Latimer, if so inclined, 201 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:41.759 If so. 202 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.320 Inclined and ratt Latimer could have gotten his hands on 203 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:48.960 any or all of the following substances. Cocaine, and that 204 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:52.919 is I think his drug of choice. He was spotted 205 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:55.840 at one point walking around the other pharmacies trying to 206 00:12:55.879 --> 00:13:00.919 get his hands on it. Heroin could have been gotten 207 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:07.840 over the opium morphine, and then mixtures of them like latum, 208 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:11.039 which is a mixture of opium and alcohol, and then paregoric, 209 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:13.519 which I believe is a mixture of pinster of opium 210 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:17.240 and alcohol, which is even stronger than laudinum. And people 211 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:21.440 didn't really understand the concept of addiction like they do today, 212 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.919 so these substances would have been available over the counter 213 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:28.279 for people as headache remedies. I have a drug label 214 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.639 from a Michigan pharmacy just for example, that is paragoric 215 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:38.200 and it's listed as forty seven point five percent alcohol 216 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:41.320 spiked with one point nine grains of opium, So it 217 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:45.679 would be like an ninety four ninety three proof glass 218 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:48.919 of whiskey spiked with the opium. And on the drug 219 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.399 label it give the dosages and the youngest is three 220 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:54.200 months old and they get a couple of the drops 221 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:56.639 of this, and then as ten months old, gets a 222 00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:58.360 few more drops, and then we go all the way 223 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:02.480 to an adult who gets a full tea spoonful. So 224 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:06.240 people took the stuff for it for headaches and wow, 225 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:08.720 it felt pretty good. So they started to use it 226 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.879 without really a concept of addiction. And you don't have 227 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:14.840 to go that far back in history, like like my 228 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:21.679 grandfather predated penicillin, and you know, they got sick, they 229 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:24.879 gave the kids a shot or wrong, and it really 230 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:27.480 didn't do anything except treat the symptoms, I think. But 231 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:30.679 we even go back to generation earlier than that they 232 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:34.000 used even harder stuff. And in addition to this, he 233 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:40.759 could have gotten substances beyond that. Substances such as chloroform 234 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:43.080 was available. If the count ride no idea what people 235 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:45.840 used it for. Maybe if they had stepped on a 236 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:47.759 nail or something and they wanted to take it out 237 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:50.879 put somebody out. People could have gotten their hands on 238 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.240 strypt nine and arsenic and strict nine, which is a 239 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.759 heavy metal poison, is a rather interesting substance because it 240 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:01.279 was used as a rodent side to kill rats in 241 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:05.279 the granary. But believe it or not, strychnine and fall 242 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.960 doses at the time was used as that era's version 243 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:12.320 of value or diazopin. It was a well, it was 244 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:16.799 an anti anxiety medication, so you could have gotten if 245 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:18.720 we had lived in that era, we could have gotten 246 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.879 all kinds of stuff over the counter whatever a carrier caier. 247 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:28.600 Right, sure. Now, let's get to January twifth, twenty fifth, 248 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:31.360 eighteen eighty nine. And as you write, Mary Latimer is 249 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:33.720 fifty three years age fifty three years of age at 250 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:38.200 that time, and her son, Robert Irving Latimer, is her 251 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:40.879 only child, and he has a keeps a bedroom at 252 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.120 the family home, but as you write, he's rarely there, 253 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:45.639 and he spends nights at the pharmacy as a cot 254 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:51.120 at the pharmacy. Now her Mary's friend is someone named 255 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:56.639 Kate Burrows. Tell us what Kate Burrows does when she's 256 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:01.039 concerned about Mary being alone. Tell us what happens. 257 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.559 She's concerned about Mary being alone because Mary, at this 258 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:08.159 point in time is a widow and she's got a 259 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:12.679 weak heart, and Kate's concerned about her health. And one day, 260 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:16.759 one very early morning, she sees that the groceries have 261 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:23.240 been dropped by the side dwarf, and usually Mary would 262 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.759 have been there to accept the groceries and bring them in, 263 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:28.559 so right away she thinks that something might be wrong, 264 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.840 so she goes to the house and she runs into 265 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:36.000 a paper hanger so a wallpaperer who was doing some 266 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:39.080 work for the latter of her family. And they go 267 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:43.639 in through the basement up into the kitchen and there 268 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:46.879 they find the dog gyp and I think the dog 269 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.440 had bloody footprints that he was tracking around the house. 270 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:52.559 But they go up the staircase to her bedroom and 271 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:55.840 that's where they find her kind of a bloody mass. 272 00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:58.960 She had been beaten, she had been shot, She had 273 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:02.399 been slumped over for a chair, and it looked like 274 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:04.880 what happened was she was trying to get to the window, 275 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:07.480 perhaps to open it and call out, when she collapsed 276 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:07.799 and died. 277 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:14.079 Now you say right away, there's a response from police 278 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:19.440 Chief Eugene D. Winnie and Captain Jack Boyle. What do 279 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:23.400 they find in terms of, right away, what might be 280 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:26.079 the motive for this killing? And what do they find 281 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:29.519 in terms of any other physical evidence present. 282 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:35.519 So the physical evidence that they find, some interesting physical 283 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:39.559 evidence that they didn't entirely understand at first, was in 284 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:44.680 the Latimer bedroom where Robert sometimes slept. They found a 285 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:51.119 blood spattered handkerchief that they thought perhaps the killer had 286 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:53.640 gone in there to wipe his hands. They also found 287 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.359 some blood spots on the pillow itself. Now, one of 288 00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:00.079 the theories was is that the dog had taken the 289 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.960 the handkerchief off of the floor and jumped up on 290 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:04.720 that bed and carried the blood with it, but it 291 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:07.880 didn't quite seem to fit. They also found some blood 292 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:12.839 stains on a gas jet, but probably the single most 293 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:17.039 compelling piece of evidence that they found would have been 294 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:28.000 Mary's dentures, which is essentially then, I think, blown and 295 00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:31.319 sprinkled across the floor like marbles. I think is how 296 00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:33.839 I described that in the book. Now, what I mean 297 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:38.240 by being important is that she essentially bit down in 298 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:42.599 her attacker, they thought. 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No 324 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:54.079 purchase necessary board we're prohibited by long eighteen plus terms 325 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:56.079 and conditions applag see website for details. 326 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:58.960 They were able to, I think use that to pair 327 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:04.559 up to kill their with with the victim. Now. Kind 328 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:07.960 of an interesting thing about this, though, is the way 329 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.839 they handled evidence is a little bit different, and their theories, 330 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.079 their underlying theories is a little bit different than it 331 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:17.319 was today. And in part this is why I enjoy 332 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:21.319 letting about historical crime so much. It's because it's so 333 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:24.480 different than it is today now. When we get through 334 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:26.920 the crime scene hit a pretty good example of a 335 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.319 piece of evidence they really wanted to find, which they 336 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:31.720 thought would be like a smoking gun type of proof, 337 00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:34.640 but they never did find because the science doesn't support it. 338 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:39.279 And that's something called forensic optography. It was assumed at 339 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:43.079 the time that the human eye functioned just like a camera. 340 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.799 I think the optics are somewhat similar. The physical process 341 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:48.960 behind how a camera took the picture and how the 342 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.480 eyeball work were somewhat similar, and that led to the 343 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:57.920 conclusion that a person captured on their eye an image 344 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.400 of the last thing they saw in a murder case, 345 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:04.920 that would inevitably be the killer. So in cases like 346 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.720 this this era, they would take a camera and they 347 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:09.599 would prop it up over the body and they would 348 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:12.519 try to take photographs of the eyes and analyze that 349 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:17.640 for the possible image of the killer, which as there's 350 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:21.079 no scientist science behind this, it's maybe a pseudoscience, is 351 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:23.079 what we call that today. But it's a really interesting 352 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:27.880 example of how they did things differently than they did today. 353 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:35.119 You also talk about that they questioned neighbors, and they 354 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:40.400 are the mystific or mystified that the dog doesn't bark 355 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:45.400 for this supposed intruder, and no one hears any any 356 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:48.039 but as soon as they come to the crime scene, 357 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:52.319 the dog barks. So that's put in their in their 358 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:56.720 little book in terms of notable things about this crime scene, 359 00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:57.319 doesn't it? 360 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:00.920 Oh, yeah, absolutely, because the dog is capable of It's 361 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.680 an old aged dog that's on its last legs, so 362 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:05.799 to speak, that it's capable of barking in a does 363 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:09.200 in fact bark when others are around, when strangers are 364 00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:11.759 around people, the dog isn't quite familiar with why the 365 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:14.880 dog doesn't bark because the person who came in and 366 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.440 killed Mary Latimer wasn't a stranger, at least not to 367 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:20.559 the dog Jip. So again, that's an interesting piece of 368 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:24.680 evidence that suggested it tended to show that the killer 369 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:27.160 may have been intimately equated with Barry Latimer in some 370 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:32.039 shape or form. Brought Robert to He was in Detroit 371 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:35.400 at the time, and he came back to Jackson and 372 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:38.680 he was interviewed in the house with the body still 373 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:41.160 slumped over the chair in the next room, and curiously 374 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:44.119 he had no interest whatsoever in seeing his mother's body. 375 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:49.559 His affect was off, he didn't seem like he acted 376 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.799 like a man who had just lost his beloved mother. 377 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.480 And even more suspiciously, he offered up an alibi that 378 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:00.880 just seemed a little too perfect. Combined with the fact 379 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.160 that Jip knew the killer and that Robert Irving Latimer 380 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:08.519 had had an injured thumb, they started to put one 381 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:11.039 and one together, and they didn't necessarily like what they 382 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:15.039 came up with, but he seemed like the most logical suspect. 383 00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:22.400 Now, how do they go about investigating and proving or 384 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:24.519 disproving this perfect alibi? 385 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:30.559 So they sent Jack Boyle to Detroit on It's a 386 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:36.720 basically backtrack, to follow in Latimer's footsteps and find out 387 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:39.839 what he was doing. And they interviewed the personnel at 388 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:45.559 the hotel that he stayed in, and basically Ledimer's alibi 389 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.119 was that he had checked into the Griswold Hotel in 390 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.400 downtown Detroit and during the hours of the crime he 391 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.359 was fast asleep in his bed. Well, they interviewed some 392 00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:59.759 of the hotel personnel. The maid in particular was of 393 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.000 was of importance here, and they were all convinced that 394 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:05.839 Latimer never slept in the bed, although he attempted to 395 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:09.960 make it look like he slept in the bed. So Boyle, 396 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:13.480 so there's a missing period of time, and it's that 397 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:16.039 missing period of time which he sends you asleep in 398 00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:18.599 the bed that they tried to find out where he 399 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:26.559 actually was. Now they go to Boyle goes and identifies 400 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:30.480 a barber who shaved Latimer the next day, and the 401 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:33.640